#emc | Logs for 2008-10-07

[00:09:59] <dmess> hi all
[02:18:14] <LabRat> I need help compiling emc2-trunk on a custom rtai kernel
[02:18:46] <jmkasunich> what is not working?
[02:19:16] <jmkasunich> note that I know next to nothing about compiling on any kernel other than the one we distribute
[02:19:50] <LabRat> I get the following error
[02:19:55] <LabRat> ./modsilent make -C /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime SUBDIRS=`pwd` CC=gcc V=0 -o /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime/Module.symvers modules make[1]: Entering directory `/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime' CC [M] /home/earl/emc2-trunk/src/emc/kinematics/5axiskins.o /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime/arch/x86/Makefile:15: /usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime/arch/x86/Makefile_32: No such file or directory In file included fr
[02:20:35] <jmkasunich> that paste didn't work
[02:20:37] <SWPadnos> could you put that on pastebin or something, and make sure the line ends don't get mangled?
[02:20:39] <jmkasunich> too much on one line
[02:20:45] <SWPadnos> and no CR
[02:20:55] <LabRat> sorry new to irc
[02:21:09] <SWPadnos> no problem, just hard to read :)
[02:22:43] <LabRat> http://pastebin.com/m6cd20c22
[02:23:00] <tomp> haha i just made a video of this new control. the camera is focused on the screen, and you see my hands waving while i talk thru the demo. it looks like white fang & black tooth from soupy sales.
[02:23:31] <jmkasunich> LabRat: what directory are you in when you run make?
[02:24:12] <LabRat> ~/emc-trunk/src
[02:24:13] <jmkasunich> this isn't even remotely like what I see when I do a build
[02:24:34] <jmkasunich> what is modsilent?
[02:24:59] <LabRat> not sure what you are asking
[02:25:13] <SWPadnos> you run a script called ./modsilent. what is it?
[02:25:20] <jmkasunich> your command line starts with "./modsilent make -C blah blah
[02:25:40] <SWPadnos> oh hey - that comes with EMC2 ;)
[02:25:47] <jmkasunich> it does?
[02:25:51] <jmkasunich> wtf is it?
[02:26:05] <SWPadnos> or jepler did something to make EMC2 work with it anyway
[02:26:12] <LabRat> I don't know that is just the part of the make where the error is
[02:26:40] <LabRat> There is much more before that I didn't post
[02:26:46] <JymmmEMC> 120vac with a cap across the coil of a relay. If I remove power, will there be a delay in opening the coil?
[02:26:57] <tomp> LabRat: post the 1st error
[02:27:06] <jmkasunich> LabRat: oh, ok - I thought the first line was invoking the make
[02:27:14] <jmkasunich> tomp: I believe that is the first error
[02:27:17] <tomp> k
[02:27:29] <jmkasunich> the "much more" is make going thru many other files successfully
[02:27:32] <jmkasunich> (I hope)
[02:27:43] <LabRat> yes first error, make was working fine for awhile
[02:27:52] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich: for some value of "delay", yes
[02:27:55] <SWPadnos> so, where is the actual kernel source (vs the headers referenced in the error)
[02:27:57] <jmkasunich> but not more than one AC line cycle
[02:28:33] <jmkasunich> LabRat: when you say "working for a while", you mean it used to succeed, and now it doesn't
[02:28:41] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: I just need 1/2 a second delay =)
[02:28:46] <LabRat> no
[02:28:49] <jmkasunich> or you just mean that it chuggs away for a while before failing
[02:28:50] <SWPadnos> use a DC relay
[02:29:07] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: It's 120VAC going in =)
[02:29:23] <SWPadnos> change the circuit then, silly :)
[02:29:29] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: diode, cap, DC relay
[02:29:29] <LabRat> chuggs away for a while then fails after building some of the mesa drivers
[02:29:36] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Can't it's a fog machine
[02:29:48] <jmkasunich> time delay relay
[02:29:50] <SWPadnos> hmmm. then get a time delay relay
[02:29:52] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:29:54] <jmkasunich> (deja vu?)
[02:29:54] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$4
[02:29:57] <SWPadnos> again
[02:30:04] <SWPadnos> time delay relays are $10 on ebay
[02:30:14] <SWPadnos> +/- 1000%
[02:30:27] <JymmmEMC> the fog machine was only $20
[02:30:32] <JymmmEMC> New, walmart =)
[02:31:02] <jmkasunich> LabRat: your system is using gcc 4.2.3?
[02:33:11] <LabRat> the linux source is in /usr/src/linux-2.6.24 with a link called linux in /usr/src Checking for compiler version now
[02:33:47] <jmkasunich> I'm afraid I'm not gonna be much help
[02:33:58] <jmkasunich> those system dependent symlinks confuse me
[02:34:10] <jmkasunich> especially since I'm still running older stuff
[02:34:11] <LabRat> is there a command to check compiler version?
[02:34:25] <JymmmEMC> gcc -v ?
[02:34:26] <jmkasunich> gcc -c
[02:34:31] <jmkasunich> -v
[02:34:53] <JymmmEMC> "Pick B!!! Pick B!!!"
[02:35:12] <LabRat> I am using gcc version 4.2.3
[02:35:27] <jmkasunich> you compiled your own rtai?
[02:35:43] <SWPadnos> 4.2.3 is the default on Hardy
[02:35:52] <SWPadnos> (apparently - that's what I have as well)
[02:35:56] <jmkasunich> I'm assuming this isn't Hardy
[02:36:03] <LabRat> yeah I wanted to see if I could get my networking working
[02:36:07] <LabRat> it is hardy
[02:36:20] <SWPadnos> what network driver do you have?
[02:36:24] <SWPadnos> err - card
[02:36:26] <SWPadnos> or adapter
[02:36:35] <LabRat> I even downloaded the source from linuxcnc for 2.6.24
[02:36:36] <jmkasunich> so, did EMC compile correctly before you replaced our RT kernel with your own?
[02:38:00] <LabRat> I did try compiling on the stock rtai kernel and it compiled correctly well at least emc loaded but I did not check it running the mill
[02:38:13] <jmkasunich> but it compiled
[02:38:16] <jmkasunich> and now it doesn't
[02:38:24] <LabRat> all the rtai tests work ok
[02:38:43] <jmkasunich> and the problem is a header that is not included from EMC source, it is included from another system header
[02:38:45] <LabRat> I just can't compile emc on it
[02:39:48] <SWPadnos> FWIW, asm/types.h doesn't include anything on my system
[02:40:01] <SWPadnos> and the only features.h files are part of xen
[02:40:19] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: are you looking at the same pastebin I am?
[02:40:26] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:40:32] <SWPadnos> line 9
[02:40:41] <SWPadnos> /usr/lib/gcc/i486-linux-gnu/4.2.3/include/asm/posix_types.h:13:22: error: features.h: No such file or directory
[02:41:28] <jmkasunich> I see hal.h including linux/types.h which includes linux/posix_types.h, which includes asm/posix_types.h, which doesn't exist
[02:42:01] <SWPadnos> no, posix-types exists, it's features.h that doesn't
[02:42:06] <SWPadnos> posix_types
[02:42:18] <jmkasunich> where is features.h mentioned?
[02:42:30] <jmkasunich> oh
[02:42:31] <jmkasunich> duh
[02:42:33] <jmkasunich> I can read
[02:42:34] <SWPadnos> line 9, the one I pasted ;)
[02:43:20] <jmkasunich> ok, now that I'm done being blind
[02:43:46] <jmkasunich> you said "asm/types.h" doesn't include anything, that was a typo?
[02:44:01] <jmkasunich> you meant "asm/posix_types.h doesn't include anything"
[02:44:26] <SWPadnos> hmmm. no, I think I checked the wrong file ;)
[02:44:47] <LabRat> no this is weird my asm link in the header file that points to asm-x86 is broken now. I thought I checked it earlier when I was building the rtai modules
[02:52:16] <LabRat> I fixed the broken asm link in the header files and now I am trying to compile again
[02:54:03] <LabRat> now I get a different error but in same place http://pastebin.com/m46221781
[02:57:09] <SWPadnos> in what directory is the ipipe-enabled kernel?
[02:57:36] <SWPadnos> I see that you're using a kernel-headers dir, but you must have had a kernel-source directory to be able to compile the RT kernel
[02:58:02] <SWPadnos> you may just be missing a proper .config file or something
[03:01:38] <LabRat> source is /usr/src/linux-2.6.24
[03:02:13] <SWPadnos> ok, and that's the RTAI-patched kernel?
[03:03:02] <LabRat> is source location something I can supply to the ./configure script?
[03:03:11] <SWPadnos> yes
[03:03:40] <SWPadnos> something like --with-kernel-something=/path/to/kernel
[03:03:44] <LabRat> I am using ./configure --enable-run-in-place --with-realtime=/usr/realtime --with-kernel-headers=/usr/src/linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime
[03:03:47] <SWPadnos> same for realtime dir
[03:04:03] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:04:50] <SWPadnos> what's the origin of the linux-headers-2.6.24-realtime dir?
[03:05:00] <SWPadnos> was that from a package supplied by us?
[03:06:19] <LabRat> no it was built the the 2.6.24 source from you but compiled by me
[03:07:10] <SWPadnos> linux-source and linux-headers are two separate packages
[03:07:17] <SWPadnos> (normally)
[03:07:18] <LabRat> yes I know
[03:07:47] <SWPadnos> ok - I'm just going on the idea that there's a kernel that was compiled from one place, but the headers aren't that place
[03:08:08] <SWPadnos> so I'd use the headers from the kernel source you compiled and see if that helps
[03:08:33] <LabRat> I compiled the kernel and header files at the same time
[03:08:51] <SWPadnos> I guess I don't understand what you mean by "compiled the header filess"
[03:08:54] <LabRat> I am using the header files from my compile
[03:08:57] <SWPadnos> ok
[03:10:21] <SWPadnos> well, clearly I'm no help here :)
[03:10:37] <LabRat> thanks for trying
[03:10:53] <SWPadnos> if you can, you may want to pop back in in about 8-12 hours. there are others that are more skilled in this area who may be on then
[03:11:33] <LabRat> I will do that, thanks
[03:11:36] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:11:45] <SWPadnos> actually, something like 8-20 hours from now :)
[03:11:53] <SWPadnos> (it's jus a little late for a few of them)
[03:13:11] <LabRat> I was going to get on early but I wanted to try building thing over one more time
[03:13:20] <SWPadnos> good man :)
[03:13:54] <SWPadnos> or woman
[03:18:31] <LabRat> man
[08:08:03] <archivist_ub> I dont agree "<cradek> (there's virtually no use for a horizontal rotary on a cnc)"
[08:10:14] <archivist_ub> Paragon, btw I have Vertex for my rotary but its the 5" ish version I find I can design on pocked/shape then rotate for n replications
[08:10:48] <archivist_ub> one of the suppliers does a stepper adapter for it
[09:01:29] <anonimasu> archivist_ub: how good precision do you get with it?
[09:01:33] <anonimasu> (vertex rotary table)
[09:01:58] <archivist_ub> there is backlash and play in it
[09:02:33] <anonimasu> I saw a figure quoting 10arcseconds for a vertex table..
[09:02:36] <anonimasu> which sounded pretty good..
[09:02:38] <anonimasu> brb..
[09:03:08] <archivist_ub> I should re-engineer is for rotary use in the way I use it, but where possible I add gcode to get rid of backlash
[09:04:41] <coden4life> that is a rather interesting technique
[09:05:00] <archivist_ub> it has 90-1 reduction and seems ok on division but not measured yet, when I get time I will measure with an angle dekkor
[09:06:14] <archivist_ub> Ive done the quick and dirty check on a high count clock wheel and its accurate enough
[09:07:19] <archivist_ub> that a digital caliper over a set number of teeth and set zero, continue around wheel see if any variation
[09:08:00] <archivist_ub> that shows up cyclic error from the worm
[09:09:01] <anonimasu> hm, I'd probably stick a encoder on the table.. toget absolute angle..
[09:09:14] <anonimasu> to get..
[09:09:44] <archivist_ub> table has various backlash/play errors
[09:10:32] <archivist_ub> really needs measuring fixing and compensating for
[09:10:48] <anonimasu> if you have a absolute encoder you can make a compensation table :)
[09:11:38] <archivist_ub> its not good enough for small pinions as far as I can tell, as its concentricity has too much play
[09:12:20] <anonimasu> dont you compensate for that when you set up a chuck?
[09:12:38] <archivist_ub> I use the morse taper in it
[09:12:56] <anonimasu> I see... that's probably not as good
[09:13:04] <archivist_ub> and chuck setup is too slow
[09:13:26] <archivist_ub> taper in the middle is pretty good
[09:13:55] <anonimasu> uh, but you only need to set a chuck up once..
[09:14:00] <anonimasu> unless you change alot
[09:14:34] <archivist_ub> I want to get to within tenths of the center but probably only getting a couple of thou
[09:14:48] <archivist_ub> I change nearly every job
[09:15:05] <anonimasu> a 4 jaw chuck would work for that ;)
[09:15:51] <archivist_ub> too muck setup time :) as well
[09:17:55] <archivist_ub> I just have arbors that fit morse colletts so will be as good as can be
[09:17:57] <Paragon> How about one of these :--) http://www.dovermotion.com/Downloads/DRT100.pdf
[09:18:00] <anonimasu> just buy a much better table.
[09:18:25] <anonimasu> :)
[09:18:29] <anonimasu> $$$$$$$$$$$
[09:18:45] <anonimasu> 600rpm cute :p
[09:18:47] <anonimasu> you can turn with it
[09:18:58] <Paragon> lol
[09:19:03] <archivist_ub> £££££
[09:19:53] <archivist_ub> get a price on it for a laugh
[09:20:04] <archivist_ub> and please tell us
[09:21:53] <Paragon> Just sent an email for a quote...
[09:22:12] <anonimasu> :D
[09:22:34] <archivist_ub> I wonder where it compares in price with a UK house
[09:24:26] <Paragon> OK how about this for a lough ... how much work would it be to make one? I mean one can make the coils on the lathe and rare earth magnets are reasonable on ebay what more is there? ;-)
[09:24:38] <Paragon> laugh
[09:25:02] <archivist_ub> I have a coil winding machine :)
[09:25:27] <Paragon> So could it be done do you think?
[09:25:46] <archivist_ub> but the locking against machining forces is the real problem
[09:26:10] <Paragon> Heres how they work .. http://www.axsys.com/p-dcmotors.php
[09:26:17] <archivist_ub> either good servo and very high torque direct drive
[09:27:18] <Paragon> The great thing about them is there is zero backlash and no loss (heat) due to coupling losses etc..
[09:27:40] <archivist_ub> hmm "limited angle"
[09:28:04] <archivist_ub> but yes
[09:29:06] <archivist_ub> Newall do a high resolution system for rotaries dunno how fast though
[09:29:15] <Paragon> Would make for an interesting project.... what with the over 100 waiting in the wing :-)
[09:30:11] <archivist_ub> I had thought of many motors around a ring gear (I have many motors)
[09:30:15] <Paragon> Taken guess's on the price of DRT-100 .... winner gets to take themselves out for lunch :-)
[09:30:43] <archivist_ub> £10k
[09:31:00] <Paragon> £5000K
[09:32:21] <Paragon> £5000k seems a little low i know but I am a cheap b$%tard lol
[09:33:02] <archivist_ub> I have to be a cheap bar steward these days
[09:33:42] <Paragon> Tell me about it ... :-(
[09:33:53] <archivist_ub> a lot of Denford Oracs on ebay this week
[09:35:49] <Paragon> I saw them yesterday. I do like them but it's just collecting them thats the problem. Not to mention space being a premium. However I am thinking practice a little more with Starmill and then move to an Orac as it's probably the natual progression.
[09:37:33] <Paragon> archivist_ub: What kit do you have in the workshop?
[09:37:43] <archivist_ub> I need a cnc lathe, they seem a reasonable starting point to retrofit, dunno what Denford quality is like though
[09:39:30] <archivist_ub> here we have quite a lot, but the place is going to be closed, Shaublin lathes, Safag gear mill, Mikron hobbing mc and my cnc
[09:39:41] <Paragon> Denford are good lathes I have a Starturn with ATC here is a youtube clip of a not ATC version http://www.axsys.com/p-dcmotors.php
[09:40:01] <archivist_ub> I took pics a week ago and must make a web page
[09:40:24] <Paragon> The shop your working at is closing?
[09:40:31] <archivist_ub> yes
[09:40:49] <Paragon> Jeez ....
[09:40:53] <archivist_ub> getting made repugnant
[09:41:09] <Paragon> lol .... got anything lined up yet?
[09:41:12] <archivist_ub> but gets some machines
[09:41:34] <archivist_ub> may work from home
[09:41:55] <Paragon> OK ... What machines are you scavenging?
[09:42:15] <archivist_ub> so Im preparing a web site http://www.archivist.info/gears/
[09:42:35] <archivist_ub> depends on what boss gives me
[09:42:56] <archivist_ub> there is more than I can take home!
[09:43:23] <archivist_ub> do you want a 1900's vertical mill
[09:43:29] <Paragon> Are they having a sale?
[09:43:43] <archivist_ub> we may epay some
[09:43:53] <Paragon> Where are you based?
[09:44:07] <archivist_ub> getting them out the basement will be entertaining
[09:44:14] <Paragon> OMG
[09:44:15] <archivist_ub> Swadlincote
[09:44:43] <Paragon> Derbyshire...
[09:45:13] <Paragon> I way down in Kent
[09:45:27] <Paragon> Bexley
[09:45:39] <archivist_ub> yes, few capstan lathes 4 mills a sliding head and presses in a tin church
[09:46:25] <archivist_ub> mad boss dug out the basement and has a slope to let things down into
[09:46:47] <Paragon> LOL ..... I thinking of getting into miniture gas turbine engines.
[09:47:08] <archivist_ub> I saw some at Ascot the other day
[09:47:39] <Paragon> Do you think there is a market for them?
[09:48:13] <archivist_ub> I think the rotary needs to be "solid" to machine the turbine blades
[09:48:23] <archivist_ub> there is a bit yes
[09:48:26] <coden4life> na but tesla turbine maybe
[09:48:35] <Paragon> The price of them commercialy is a bit prohibitive £1200 - £2000
[09:49:44] <archivist_ub> I got the impression turbine blades is the costly part, lost wax casting and only a percentage pass the machining stage
[09:49:49] <Paragon> I have been testing a homemade arc furnace for melting inconnell 618 for casting.
[09:50:28] <archivist_ub> your part way there then
[09:51:05] <coden4life> tesla turbines are blade less
[09:51:28] <Paragon> I bought two arc welders and connected themin paralell the cables connect to grphite rods that burn at 3000C!
[09:52:15] <archivist_ub> are you putting argon on top to keep the metal clean
[09:52:34] <archivist_ub> or something like that
[09:52:34] <Paragon> I built a vacuum chamber from down pipe to be used in vacuum lost wax casting.
[09:53:06] <Paragon> That would be the plan eventualy. Early doors at the moment
[09:54:36] <archivist_ub> if you always control the gcode to remove backlash and work against (not climb mill) probably ok to use vertex rotary
[09:55:26] <Paragon> I have a small compressor wheel 30mm dia. Most gas turbines use a 66mm. but I am aiming to make them smaller. The other type of efficient compressor is the closed swept back blade type. this could be cut on a fourth axis with out to much trouble I would think.
[09:56:40] <Paragon> archivist_ub: Like your website.
[09:57:17] <archivist_ub> it needs scaled thumbs (quick and dirty at the moment)
[09:57:51] <Paragon> Sure, but at least its a start.
[09:57:55] <archivist_ub> and perhaps better explanations and a few newer pics, the bevel is crappy
[09:58:50] <archivist_ub> Im thinking of the model railway crowd as customers
[09:59:18] <archivist_ub> or I get a proper job
[09:59:32] <Paragon> What are the gears called that have spikey teeth?
[09:59:58] <archivist_ub> but I have to keep the boss guessing to make sure I get machines
[10:00:15] <archivist_ub> epycyclic, for clocks
[10:00:37] <archivist_ub> er wrong cycloidal
[10:00:44] <anonimasu> hmm..
[10:00:51] <anonimasu> Paragon: that's cool :D
[10:00:52] <Paragon> Oh OK
[10:01:47] <Paragon> anonimasu: The arc furnace?
[10:01:50] <anonimasu> archivist_ub: I'd get the schaublin lathe ;)
[10:02:00] <anonimasu> (if you can get it $free/cheap
[10:02:08] <anonimasu> they sell for alot of cash..
[10:02:38] <Paragon> Yeah they are very nice lathes
[10:03:33] <archivist_ub> anonimasu, going for two I think 120VM and a 70 on stand
[10:04:19] <anonimasu> nice!
[10:04:35] <anonimasu> the 70's are very very sought after :)
[10:04:36] <archivist_ub> Im hoping for 1940's Boley jig mill and the sliding head would make a nice cnc project
[10:04:49] <Paragon> Nice...
[10:05:15] <archivist_ub> and the Mikron and a couple of Safag gear mills
[10:05:21] <anonimasu> archivist_ub: you should get the gear machines ;p
[10:05:28] <archivist_ub> all makes small stuff
[10:05:43] <Paragon> Guys got to abscond for a while cu soon....
[10:05:45] <anonimasu> not big gear machines?
[10:06:01] <archivist_ub> there is another hobb in the basement a tiny Barber Coleman
[10:06:27] <archivist_ub> 40mm max on the Mikron
[10:07:56] <anonimasu> I see
[10:10:23] <Paragon> Oh before I go I would just like to ask ... Converting a rotary table to CNC. What issues are there on mounting the optical encoder on the table axis rather then using the optical encoder on the motor shaft?
[10:14:24] <archivist_ub> mine is stepper so cant comment,but I need rear access to pull in the colletts
[10:15:36] <archivist_ub> and these cheap rotaries dont have complete backlash removal, perhaps a re-engineer for cnc is required
[10:15:50] <anonimasu> Paragon: you need both.. I think
[10:16:04] <anonimasu> feedback dont work very well with slop in the geartrain
[10:16:07] <anonimasu> the motor will be ~
[10:16:24] <anonimasu> in large steps to compensate until the table moves.
[10:17:10] <anonimasu> hysteresis between encoder counts..
[10:20:13] <Paragon> That makes sense. Thanks for the info. CU soon.
[10:20:56] <anonimasu> laters..
[10:25:50] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub hunts for the swarf (small pinion) he made yesterday
[10:32:35] <Paragon> Just got back for moment... What about using a big motor connected directly to the rotary tables axis avoiding the the use of the worm gear?
[10:34:44] <Paragon> Like this apears to be ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23_cZpKa3XU&feature=user
[10:34:57] <archivist_ub> thats the torque motor idea, needs sufficient for cutting forces
[10:35:41] <Paragon> Does a planetary gearbox have a lot of backlash?
[10:35:57] <archivist_ub> yes unless you deal with it
[10:36:32] <archivist_ub> found my swarf (small pinion)
[10:36:44] <Paragon> archivist_ub: Does the table in the link above appear to be direct drive to you?
[10:37:27] <archivist_ub> could well be yes
[10:38:08] <anonimasu> torque motors would work
[10:38:50] <archivist_ub> he does make a turbine but not inconnell in his vid
[10:39:39] <anonimasu> uh.. will a sieg x3 machine inconel?
[10:39:40] <Paragon> Appears the table is using a servo, what is the difference between a torque motor and the motor in use in the video ... without stating the obvious?
[10:39:51] <archivist_ub> as long as you are well specified in torque I seen no problem
[10:39:57] <anonimasu> torque motors are low speed motors with alot of torque.
[10:40:12] <anonimasu> while servos are higher speed and generally needs a reduction to reach very high torques.
[10:40:31] <Paragon> Can they be driven in the same way as a servo with optical encoder etc?
[10:40:44] <anonimasu> torque motors are $$$$$$
[10:41:05] <Paragon> Thought there would be a catch ... bummer...
[10:41:10] <anonimasu> and I very much doubt the sieg x3 will cut inconel.
[10:41:10] <anonimasu> :p
[10:41:15] <archivist_ub> Unless we start winding our own
[10:41:23] <anonimasu> rigidity..
[10:41:48] <Paragon> Thats a good point (inconnel) is it tough to cut then?
[10:42:02] <archivist_ub> just a bit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
[10:42:05] <anonimasu> haha
[10:42:11] <anonimasu> you talking about cutting it and have no clue?
[10:42:23] <anonimasu> forget machining. :)
[10:42:28] <Paragon> No I was going to cast it ....
[10:42:46] <Paragon> Or hoping to cast it ....
[10:42:50] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBuQ2IU916Q
[10:42:59] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsAyIVA75s
[10:43:03] <anonimasu> the second one gives you a hint
[10:43:42] <anonimasu> (I hope you can hear the sound of it)
[10:43:56] <anonimasu> I dont have any sound at work.. :p
[10:45:15] <anonimasu> Paragon: I didnt cut inconel but the people that does say it's the nasiest thing you can machine
[10:46:05] <Paragon> OMG .... Cutting dry. The swarth from the drilling operation is probably worth about $30 hehehe
[10:48:20] <anonimasu> well, heat cycling carbide is not a good thing either.
[10:48:41] <Paragon> Now this is using flood .....
[10:48:49] <Paragon> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZP2gVUEMQ&feature=related
[10:51:32] <_Poincare> _Poincare is now known as Poincare
[10:57:40] <anonimasu> Paragon: is there sound in that video?
[10:58:47] <Paragon> Sorry... Yes there was.... it didn't sound pleasant!
[10:59:09] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:59:16] <anonimasu> sounds like you need a rigig machine huh?
[10:59:38] <Paragon> Oh yesssss!
[10:59:42] <anonimasu> I'd make wax molds..
[10:59:53] <anonimasu> I pasted a link yesteday about how they make turbine blades..
[11:00:11] <Paragon> Use lost wax casting.
[11:00:25] <anonimasu> actually they forged them
[11:00:35] <Paragon> Really?
[11:00:43] <anonimasu> then they coated them in glass for machining so the blades wouldnt get damaged..
[11:01:31] <anonimasu> this is if you look at yesterdays log
[11:01:37] <anonimasu> and search for myspace(that's where it was)
[11:01:45] <Paragon> For the disk type ie all in one turbine could the be pressed into shape?
[11:02:12] <anonimasu> no, for blades..
[11:02:19] <anonimasu> for a wheel they probably cast them..
[11:02:27] <anonimasu> with some special process then balance..
[11:02:39] <anonimasu> I think machining turbine wheels has issues with microfractures and stuff
[11:03:09] <Paragon> grind the slots then press the disk into mold press to form the blade curves. Would this work?
[11:03:22] <archivist_ub> yes I got the impression the other day there is a high failure rate
[11:04:04] <anonimasu> yeahyes
[11:04:07] <anonimasu> that would work
[11:04:44] <Paragon> The turbine disk I am look at is about 25 - 30 mm dia
[11:05:13] <anonimasu> if you can buy them premade buy them.
[11:05:22] <anonimasu> :)
[11:06:07] <Paragon> I could possibly cnc the blade profile into two steel block then heat the inconnel disk and press it between the blocks.
[11:06:34] <anonimasu> this is for single blades..
[11:06:44] <anonimasu> think boeing size engines ;)
[11:06:47] <Paragon> I dont think buying is an option for this size. I would have to out source the casting which would probably cost $$$$
[11:07:02] <anonimasu> I mean look for a turbocharger with complete wheels that fit..
[11:07:09] <anonimasu> mhi td03 or something smaller..
[11:07:14] <anonimasu> and just buy wheels..
[11:07:23] <anonimasu> they know more about blade profiles then you do ^_^
[11:09:02] <archivist_ub> they were talking about turbocharger versions at Ascot
[11:09:23] <Paragon> The profile beleive it or not is not that critical. Some people still use stainless steel cut slots and then twist the blades into possition.
[11:09:47] <Paragon> mhi td03 mitsubishi ?
[11:09:53] <anonimasu> uh.. for effiency it's pretty important isnt it..
[11:10:02] <anonimasu> yes
[11:10:22] <anonimasu> there are a smaller size..
[11:10:28] <anonimasu> http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/12-rotor1.jpg
[11:10:40] <anonimasu> td02 too..
[11:11:27] <Paragon> This is the guy I got the compressor wheel from (Thomas) he had a spare of the one you see in the picture.
[11:11:37] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[11:12:03] <anonimasu> well, the good points about having someone cast them is QA
[11:12:39] <anonimasu> how hot does your furnace get?
[11:12:47] <Paragon> Thats for sure.
[11:13:14] <anonimasu> that you can melt inconel?
[11:13:47] <Paragon> It's still in its early stages but I got it too about 2000C and the refractory cracked (perlite home mixed)
[11:15:22] <Paragon> One problem is feeding the anode and cathode at the most efficient speed. At the moment I have only done it by hand. I hope to feed it with a stepper based on amps drawn.
[11:15:30] <Paragon> Back in a mo....
[11:21:37] <anonimasu> ok
[11:24:56] <anonimasu> Paragon: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3463.html
[11:25:57] <archivist_ub> funny ".I have melted tools in inconel but have never melted inconel"
[11:40:13] <Paragon> Back again ... I in the market for a clamping kit and am looking at these http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/CLAMPING_KITS.html . Now this I know this will sound lame but how do I select the correct kit. I have measured the T-Slot on my table and it shows 18mm at it widest and 9.5mm at the top slot ( sorry for the poor explanation) I measured a t clamp which comes in at 14.4 ~ and 9.8mm ....
[11:40:15] <Paragon> ...Are these kits measured by the t nuts or table slots?
[11:40:22] <Paragon> http://www.rdgtools.co.uk/acatalog/CLAMPING_KITS.html
[11:41:47] <archivist_ub> iirc its the gap but ask them
[11:44:34] <Paragon> Dam number busy...
[11:51:19] <fragalot> boo... I got a parallel cable,.. but it appears to be a null modem cable... I don't think this 'l work?
[11:51:38] <archivist_ub> null modem is serial
[11:51:48] <fragalot> Figures
[11:51:50] <fragalot> :p
[11:52:11] <archivist_ub> different animal completely
[11:52:51] <anonimasu> no, null modem cable is always a null modem cable
[11:52:53] <anonimasu> :/
[11:54:08] <fragalot> * fragalot curses a bit
[11:54:28] <fragalot> why make a 25pin connector if the admn thing only uses a few wires >.>
[11:54:37] <archivist_ub> serial!
[11:54:50] <archivist_ub> used to be 25pin
[11:54:57] <archivist_ub> now 9 pin
[11:54:58] <fragalot> lamesauce
[11:55:46] <archivist_ub> parallel was a different connector till some idiot changed it to 25 pin
[11:55:58] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub going back a loooooong way
[11:56:51] <fragalot> lol.
[11:58:53] <archivist_ub> 1970's 80's then IBM used the 25pin but swapped to chassis socket where serial is plug
[12:00:12] <anonimasu> :)
[12:00:46] <anonimasu> * anonimasu ponders if he could hold down some acetal with vaccum
[12:00:58] <fragalot> that could also explain why my usb to parallel connector shows up as COM3 :p
[12:01:36] <archivist_ub> you mean usb to serial coz its a plug not a socket
[12:01:54] <fragalot> exactly
[12:02:08] <fragalot> it just had a DB25 connector on it so i assumed it was parallel
[12:02:08] <fragalot> :p
[12:19:44] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepoler
[12:19:47] <jepoler> jepoler is now known as jepler
[12:45:44] <skunkworks_> cradek: http://www.flickr.com/photos/prestonsmith/2919605094/sizes/l/
[12:48:04] <jepler> skunkworks_: did you say the other day you are working on milling your circuit board?
[12:50:48] <archivist_ub> skunkworks, whats that pic supposed to be ?
[12:51:29] <skunkworks_> it is a telescope 'motor'
[12:52:21] <skunkworks_> jepler: yes - I have one side rough milled
[12:52:31] <skunkworks_> hope to make it back this weekend.
[12:52:35] <jepler> skunkworks_: cool
[12:53:23] <skunkworks_> A few false starts.. I had a plastic bag over the open vaccum holes.. The bit grabbed it and pulled it right off the table.
[12:54:57] <skunkworks_> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Stellarvue/message/91346
[12:56:06] <SWPadnos> skunkworks: https://www.barebonespcb.com/!BB1.asp?Recalculated=1&Quantity=3&XDimension=6&YDimension=4
[12:59:43] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: what fun is that?
[12:59:45] <skunkworks_> ;)
[12:59:58] <skunkworks_> when and if this works - I am seriously thinking about having them made.
[13:00:02] <SWPadnos> uh - the fun of actually having the boards soon, with plated-through holes??
[13:00:19] <skunkworks_> ;)
[13:01:24] <SWPadnos> does eagle have EDIF export?
[13:03:27] <SWPadnos> incidentally, 4PCB also has $33 barebones boards - plated through, with soldermasak and silkscreen for $33 each (min 4 though)
[13:06:08] <skunkworks_> I don't know - that is something I have not looked at (exporting)
[13:10:56] <SWPadnos> I never got around to asking the Altium guys for an Eagle import/export filter, so now I'm curious about formats they may both support
[13:12:17] <SWPadnos> oh. there isn't a minimum quantity of 4, you get 1 free if you order 4 or more (of the $33 each ones)
[13:57:34] <Paragon> Just been contacted with regards to the DRT-100 direct drive rotary table. They want to know my life story before they will quote me the price.!!!!!
[13:57:55] <pjm_> say its for a mil contract and you cannot discuss it further
[13:58:20] <fenn> tell them to hire a detective
[13:59:45] <archivist_ub> tell them its a present for me
[14:04:18] <Paragon> here is a snippet from the email ....
[14:04:19] <Paragon> Please could you provide me with some information on your application from which we could confirm the suitability of this device. Please also let me have a telephone number and I’ll call you to discuss. Finally, please let me have your company details so as I can prepare a quotation.
[14:04:21] <Paragon>
[14:07:13] <BigJohnT> they want to know what your worth so they know how much to overcharge you :)
[14:07:14] <archivist_ub> they will fall off chair when you tell them its for inconel
[14:07:19] <toastatwork> lol
[14:07:33] <Paragon> lol
[14:07:56] <toastatwork> just tell them you've already assessed the suitability of the device and would like a quote to do final comparison against other suitable devices
[14:08:37] <Paragon> Right, off to the workshop cu all in a bit :-)
[14:17:05] <cradek> I wonder how long sf will be giving us multiple copies of messages
[14:17:21] <SWPadnos> it seems to be down to two today
[14:17:27] <SWPadnos> or maybe Jon E is special
[14:17:30] <cradek> and I wonder how long it will be until people get mine
[14:17:35] <BigJohnT> I only get them from Jon E
[14:17:46] <SWPadnos> Stuart had a double this morning
[14:17:48] <cradek> I just got two with the same MessageID from stuart
[14:18:22] <cradek> so you can be sure he didn't cause it
[14:19:06] <SWPadnos> it's pseudo-random. I've gotten 4 of each from Jon 9several times), singles from some people, and this double from Stuart
[14:19:16] <archivist_ub> I had a load saturday
[14:38:07] <skunkworks_> I had one email that took a week to go thru the system
[14:38:19] <cradek> mine went through now I guess
[14:38:29] <skunkworks_> I see yours chris
[14:45:21] <anonimasu> hm..
[14:48:06] <jepler> darn, I got outbid on these motors I didn't need. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&&item=190256561207
[14:48:45] <SWPadnos> darn
[14:49:53] <anonimasu> hm..
[14:50:03] <anonimasu> when threadmilling what kind of Z stepdown do I need per rev?
[14:50:05] <anonimasu> same as pitch?
[14:50:49] <cradek> sure, how else could it work?
[14:51:05] <anonimasu> I have this example on my control for a internal thread and the pitch is 1.5
[14:51:13] <anonimasu> and they step Z down 4.5 per rev..
[14:51:28] <cradek> typo?
[14:51:30] <anonimasu> CP IPA-360 IZ-4,5 DR- F500
[14:51:33] <anonimasu> seems very much so.
[14:52:39] <anonimasu> ah well, im just playing if it fails it fails.
[14:54:42] <SWPadnos> how tall is the threadmill end?
[14:55:16] <SWPadnos> conceptually, you can use any integer multiple of the thread pitch as the Z step
[14:55:29] <SWPadnos> you'll just get a multi-start thread (I think)
[15:00:22] <anonimasu> hmm
[15:00:51] <anonimasu> ok
[15:01:09] <cradek> until you run out of relief anyway
[15:02:27] <anonimasu> :)
[15:02:29] <anonimasu> brb
[15:02:30] <anonimasu> test cut
[15:08:11] <BigJohnT> anonimasu: thread mill sample programs here http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/pdf/threadmill-1.pdf
[15:08:23] <BigJohnT> http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/threadmillprogram2.aspx
[15:08:33] <BigJohnT> http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/lakeshorecarbidecomthreadmillspeedsfeeds.aspx
[15:08:39] <renesis> guys buy me a 4th axis
[15:08:45] <BigJohnT> http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/faqforthreadmills.aspx
[15:08:52] <renesis> i just need a little one
[15:21:22] <archivist_ub> my gcode for thread milling assumes A axis is leaning by thread angle , please buy me 5th axis
[15:21:54] <BigJohnT> lets just go for broke and you guys buy me a 5 axis mill :)
[15:22:21] <cradek> seems to me that thread milling should use a plain old 60 degree tool spun and run helically
[15:22:29] <cradek> there is no tilt
[15:22:50] <cradek> it's exactly like single-point threading
[15:22:52] <archivist_ub> that gives concave sides
[15:23:07] <archivist_ub> I have an example
[15:23:23] <fenn> depends on the radius of the cutter
[15:23:36] <cradek> you could even take a single-point lathe tool and spin it
[15:23:48] <BigJohnT> the one I have looks like a tap with no pitch
[15:23:50] <fenn> i suppose you could sharpen the cutter with a concave profile of some sort
[15:24:00] <archivist_ub> I do use a lathe tool on a fly cutter
[15:26:46] <tomp> the thread faces get concave by moving a straight line ( face edge of tool) ?
[15:26:58] <cradek> hm I'm wrong aren't I
[15:27:12] <cradek> it's only like single-point threading if the tool is small compared to the hole
[15:27:12] <archivist_ub> I first hit the concave side wall when doing an acme form for the worm I did
[15:27:38] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT gets out his OptiVisor with extra lens and looks at a tap and a thread mill
[15:27:46] <archivist_ub> and I went ah!
[15:28:23] <BigJohnT> hmm, they look to have the same profile 60°
[15:28:40] <fenn> BigJohnT: are the flanks straight or curved slightly?
[15:28:59] <BigJohnT> they are straight as far as I can tell
[15:29:27] <archivist_ub> Im assuming its only ok for certain tap radius v required dia
[15:29:34] <cradek> put the tap and thread mill together and look for light in the flutes
[15:29:37] <archivist_ub> for v form
[15:29:42] <BigJohnT> the only difference I see between single point and the thread mill is you don't have to make as many passes with the thread mill
[15:29:48] <tomp> can you rub a stone on it or dykem up a screw or something to look for high spots?
[15:29:49] <BigJohnT> did that cradek
[15:29:56] <cradek> huh
[15:30:03] <cradek> what size of thread mill?
[15:30:28] <cradek> I think they'd look flat if the thread mill is much smaller diameter than the hole
[15:30:34] <BigJohnT> mine is 1/4-20
[15:30:48] <tomp> sounds like big enuf for a worm, so the visual inpection is easier
[15:30:50] <cradek> what's the diameter of the thread mill?
[15:31:03] <piasdom> anyone have a pic of a threadmill ?.....never had to use one
[15:31:03] <cradek> not its target thread, I mean its own diameter
[15:31:26] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT gets a caliper
[15:32:14] <cradek> if it's 1/8, I think you'd need to hold it against an 1/8-20 tap (ha) to really see the difference
[15:32:20] <archivist_ub> my home made indexable http://www.archivist.info/cnc/p1010245.jpg
[15:32:27] <BigJohnT> it is 3 flute so kinda hard to measure but it is about 0.175"
[15:32:39] <cradek> I think it will match up with the 1/4-20 tap by definition
[15:32:55] <BigJohnT> btw, thread milling is the same as internal threads on a lathe your just turning a different part
[15:33:20] <cradek> BigJohnT: it's not, because with single-point the tool touches the work exactly along a radius and nowhere else
[15:33:22] <fenn> no it's different because the cutter is disc-shaped instead of just a point
[15:33:40] <cradek> your spinning tool touches along the radius but also some more above and below
[15:34:07] <tomp> archivist_ub: that tool gave you a concave surface when it swung about its own axis , and boved along its centerline?
[15:34:10] <piasdom> thanks archivist
[15:34:18] <cradek> above it will make an unwanted cut into one side of the thread, and below, the same cut in the other side
[15:34:39] <archivist_ub> tomp no it was an acme form another job
[15:34:45] <tomp> k thx
[15:35:06] <BigJohnT> I thought the thread mill was just a bunch of single point tools stacked together
[15:35:08] <archivist_ub> tomp but I tilt so guarantee
[15:35:26] <cradek> BigJohnT: it is, but they don't all touch the work radially
[15:35:57] <cradek> BigJohnT: it might be neat if you could blue up the thread mill and touch it to the tap. I think you'll find that the contact is not planar like you would expect
[15:36:18] <cradek> might be very hard to do/see though.
[15:36:36] <fenn> concave profile on the cutter would only work for one combination of pitch and diameter
[15:36:42] <SWPadnos> wouldn't you want to check a threadmill against a die?
[15:36:56] <BigJohnT> I just compared the thread mill to an external threading tool for my lathe and the profile looks the same with 20x
[15:37:18] <cradek> fenn: I agree
[15:37:31] <tomp> archivist_ub: is the tilt intended to make the curve flatten out? ( a shallow curve rotated along the lines thru endpoints until it is in the direction of cut, therefore flat )
[15:37:37] <cradek> SWPadnos: yeah I guess so
[15:38:02] <archivist_ub> tomp I tilt to the helix angle
[15:38:07] <BigJohnT> the thread mill AFAIK will work for any diameter bigger than what ever the min is for that mill
[15:38:19] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:38:39] <SWPadnos> I'll bet the minimum depends on the fit you want also
[15:38:40] <archivist_ub> bellow min is concave sided probably
[15:38:53] <cradek> it might appear to work, but I bet you don't get a good shape though
[15:39:24] <cradek> http://www.cutting-tool.americanmachinist.com/guiEdits/Content/bdeee18/bdeee18_1.aspx
[15:40:05] <cradek> 'Thread grooves on the cutter must be precisely ground with a corrected profile to ensure the tool doesn't overcut the flanks in the finished part.'
[15:40:29] <cradek> 'A larger cutter diameter, which is desirable because it improves tool rigidity and strength, requires a greater degree of profile correction.'
[15:42:18] <BigJohnT> that is for increasing speed
[15:42:23] <tomp> archivist_ub: i didnt look at your program, but tilting to the helix angle suggests the A rotates the work, the tool is offcenter, rotating, moving in Z interpolated with A. no circular interpolation?
[15:42:30] <BigJohnT> "One thread mill produces a variety of thread diameters for the same pitch without degrading tool performance and can be used for through and blind holes."
[15:43:16] <BigJohnT> THE SAME PITCH (T.P.I.)?
[15:43:48] <cradek> I suspect that answer is only approximately correct
[15:44:26] <BigJohnT> I suspect that it is generally correct except for extreme conditions
[15:44:32] <BigJohnT> :)
[15:44:42] <cradek> I suspect we suspect the same thing
[15:44:51] <BigJohnT> I suspect we do
[15:45:07] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT needs to do some actual work :)
[15:45:16] <BigJohnT> I'm the boss today
[15:45:23] <SWPadnos> wife away? :)
[15:45:30] <BigJohnT> wife is at work
[15:45:36] <BigJohnT> I'm at my machine shop
[15:45:50] <SWPadnos> mine too
[15:45:58] <SWPadnos> I'm in my - err - messy office
[15:46:01] <BigJohnT> business partner is at a funeral, we take turns being boss
[15:46:07] <SWPadnos> bummer
[15:47:36] <archivist_ub> tomp yes I rotate A
[15:47:44] <tomp> thx
[15:48:04] <archivist_ub> and move x z to cut
[15:48:08] <fenn> is there a difference between threadmilling and internal thread whirling?
[15:48:38] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:48:47] <tomp> whirld peas ( my wish for 2009 )
[15:48:47] <SWPadnos> whirling sounds like "fun", wheeras milling sounds like work
[16:08:53] <archivist_ub> hmm peck drilling .5 mm is entertaining
[16:09:16] <archivist_ub> tool survived
[16:13:35] <toastatwork> what the hell is internal whirling
[16:14:00] <toastatwork> *whorling
[16:14:31] <toastatwork> or however it's supposed to be spelled
[16:14:40] <archivist_ub> google and one finds what seems a milling ish reference
[16:14:55] <toastatwork> i have no idea how you'd fit a whirling head inside a bore
[16:42:03] <Paragon> OK fella's got the pice for the DRT-100 Direct drive rotary table .... Give it you best estimate ... http://www.dovermotion.com/SpecificProductFamilyPage.aspx?ID=5
[16:42:27] <Paragon> pice = price
[16:44:43] <SWPadnos> $30k
[16:46:37] <Paragon> OK here goes can't wait any longer .... £3,511 + Delivery + VAT
[16:46:53] <SWPadnos> oh. only $10k
[16:47:01] <jepler> yeah I think that's about 30k at today's exchange rates
[16:47:26] <Paragon> lol
[16:48:52] <Paragon> Just paid by credit card .... Errr yeah right O....
[16:53:54] <Paragon> I just bought this book has anyone else if so is it a good book? http://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&id=6M1E8ydzAgkC&dq=Computer+Numerical+Control:+Concepts+and+Programming&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=aq57C_kB39&sig=pAtcpGx4KlD_p-d7tJNMEdj6yno&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=3&ct=result
[17:02:03] <anonimasu> hm..
[17:03:19] <anonimasu> BigJohnT: I have a heidenhain.. they had great examples in the manual :)
[17:03:43] <anonimasu> I used a single point lathe tool
[17:04:28] <Paragon> I want one of these :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YneXChaRRP4&NR=1
[17:04:36] <anonimasu> worked great.. in 4 lines of gcode..
[17:04:42] <anonimasu> :)
[17:06:40] <anonimasu> I dont want a gang tool lathe..
[17:06:53] <anonimasu> you need ground stock for the swiss type machines
[17:07:39] <Paragon> Really?
[17:07:48] <tomp> Paragon: where's the encoder coupled? to worm or axis?
[17:08:09] <anonimasu> yep
[17:08:15] <anonimasu> ones with collet chuck..
[17:08:33] <anonimasu> well, the ones where the workpiece moves..
[17:09:09] <anonimasu> :/
[17:09:12] <Paragon> tomp: I was enquiring if there was any benifit in coupling to axis over the worm so as to keep down back lash.
[17:10:44] <tomp> i use 'System 3R' c-axis. looks same. meant for edm, mounts on end of Z. encoder is on worm. it fails to see the lash between worm and ring. guaranteed to .001degree.
[17:11:27] <tomp> i think on ring is better but requires 'thru hole' encoder
[17:12:23] <tomp> 'guaranteed' ( means i gotta go make it in spec)
[17:12:32] <Paragon> I may have one of those lying around. God knows where though.
[17:13:16] <Paragon> Back in mo ... Dinner is calling!
[17:14:54] <anonimasu> tomp: Paragon wants to machine turbine wheels out of inconel
[17:14:59] <anonimasu> tomp: :)
[17:15:07] <tomp> still waiting for pdf to load from danaher
[17:15:19] <tomp> anonimasu: from solid? milling?
[17:16:05] <anonimasu> as cheap as possible
[17:16:29] <tomp> cheapest way to do 1 is to buy it ;)
[17:16:44] <anonimasu> yep
[17:17:06] <tomp> not much fun that way tho
[17:17:45] <anonimasu> heh, on a tiny mill.
[17:18:41] <SkinnYPup> How much longer is 6.06 supported for ?
[17:19:05] <tomp> i bet that rtr series with crossed rollers would allow it working upside down with significant weight on face ( say <50kg)
[17:19:34] <anonimasu> rtr?
[17:21:41] <tomp> anonimasu: last one on http://www.dovermotion.com/SpecificProductFamilyPage.aspx?ID=5
[17:22:03] <tomp> SkinnYPup: cant find a end of life date
[17:22:29] <anonimasu> tomp: oh yeah
[17:22:31] <tomp> oh.. Ubuntu 6.10 reaches end-of-life on April 26, 2008
[17:22:48] <tomp> it's dead ( is fred dead? )
[17:23:11] <SkinnYPup> Guys on #ubuntu say through June 09
[17:23:31] <tomp> yeh, im wrong, 6.06 is different
[17:24:02] <anonimasu> tomp: what size
[17:24:05] <SkinnYPup> Wanted to make a clean "ghost" image of 6.06 with all the updates applied before it runs out
[17:24:10] <anonimasu> their largest handles 45kg
[17:25:01] <tomp> anonimasu: thx, i'm still waiting for 1st pdf.
[17:25:15] <anonimasu> ok
[17:25:32] <tomp> anonimasu: so dont know what sizes are available
[17:26:32] <tomp> SkinnYPup: wikipedia sez "Ubuntu 6.06's support will end in June 2009 for desktops and June 2011 for servers. "
[17:29:30] <tomp> hah ubu9 is jaunty jackalope http://scienceblogs.com/scientificactivist/upload/2006/07/jackalope.jpg
[17:29:45] <tomp> taxidermy fun
[17:31:45] <Jymm> SkinnYPup: grab http://sysresccd.org and use partimage
[17:32:25] <Jymm> or dl every patch
[17:32:52] <Jymm> which you can do using apt, just tell it to download only, not install
[17:33:31] <SkinnYPup> tomp Jymm thank you both ;o)
[17:47:19] <fragalot> mm$
[17:47:41] <fragalot> I just tested my L298 controllers,.. and my stepper appears to jsut dance arround, with hardly any torque
[17:47:46] <fragalot> any ideas what it might be?
[17:48:07] <skunkworks_> probably something is wrong.
[17:48:19] <archivist_ub> wiring or too fast or not enough current
[17:48:19] <skunkworks_> ;)
[17:48:33] <fragalot> it's slow, driven by a 555 for now
[17:48:33] <archivist_ub> wiring is no 1
[17:48:39] <fragalot> wiring is right
[17:48:54] <fragalot> i was just about to fiddle with the current
[17:49:27] <archivist_ub> and steppers need to accelerate so its easy to be too fast
[17:49:52] <archivist_ub> see pull in rate from datasheet
[17:49:53] <fragalot> archivist_ub: this is at 2Hz..
[17:50:13] <archivist_ub> 300 should be ok
[17:50:33] <fragalot> Yeah,. the 555 cct i just made does 2Hz,.. so meh,.. :p should work anyway
[17:50:46] <fragalot> the current should be .4, and it's running at .45
[17:50:49] <fragalot>
[17:50:52] <fragalot> A*
[17:51:39] <archivist_ub> also noise and layout (dont forget the catch diodes if needed)
[17:52:06] <BigJohnT> anonimasu: I just got back in :)
[17:52:11] <fragalot> this circuit should work just fine (pminmo)
[17:52:33] <fragalot> all my soldering joins appear to be in order,.. can't really think of much else
[17:52:41] <fragalot> apart from trying another motor
[17:52:43] <archivist_ub> for what degree of "should"
[17:53:49] <fragalot> archivist_ub: as in many people have tried this and it works just fine
[17:54:15] <fragalot> the filtering part is a bit over engineered, so noise shouldn't be a problem either
[17:55:18] <jepler> I'd also vote for incorrectly wiring of the motor leads .. if you switch wires, or if one wire connection is bad, the motor will move erratically
[17:55:44] <archivist_ub> that was my first vote as well
[17:56:02] <fragalot> I checked all combinations i could possibly check,. I just swapped the motors and this one runs fine.
[17:57:00] <fragalot> lol, for .4Nm this is pretty damn strong :p
[17:57:10] <archivist_ub> ok then check unipolar / bipolar
[17:57:17] <fragalot> bipolar motors
[17:57:34] <fragalot> all 3 are the same,.. I think this one is just.. factory build error i guess
[17:57:48] <tomp> Paragon: please report your opinions on that danaher axis. i'm very interested in a servo version (hmm those are all steppers with encoders!)
[17:59:51] <tomp> Paragon: now that tghe pdfs dloaded, i see they have direct drive. you wont have any lash with the direct drive models
[18:03:31] <fragalot> mmm,.. how hot do these steppers get? lol
[18:04:34] <anonimasu> :)
[18:05:00] <anonimasu> fragalot: .4Nm is always .4Nm..
[18:05:04] <anonimasu> :p
[18:05:17] <fragalot> anonimasu: I just thought it'd be weaker :p
[18:05:26] <anonimasu> ah Yes.. :p
[18:05:35] <anonimasu> but stick a shaft so youget some leverage ;)
[18:05:38] <fragalot> I mean,.. I can't stop it with my pliers :p
[18:06:08] <tomp> a lever with teeth
[18:06:15] <anonimasu> hehe :p
[18:07:22] <archivist_ub> I tend to shove a droll chuck on steppers to test (need to hold the steppers down)
[18:07:27] <archivist_ub> drill
[18:07:57] <archivist_ub> warm to hot when not mounted on a machine
[18:17:30] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCL7S4eGELM&feature=related
[18:17:31] <anonimasu> cute
[18:18:08] <fragalot> archivist_ub: Alrighty then,... then this pwns ;)
[18:19:13] <fragalot> anonimasu: is that me, or are they using drills to mill with, and drill with TOO LONG drillbits? :p
[18:19:35] <anonimasu> I think they are super long endmils..
[18:19:51] <fragalot> why so long tho :p
[18:19:58] <anonimasu> ask me something else
[18:20:11] <fragalot> hows the weather?
[18:20:39] <anonimasu> shitty
[18:20:42] <anonimasu> thanks for asking
[18:20:45] <anonimasu> :p
[18:20:47] <fragalot> :D
[18:25:19] <fenn> anonimasu: how do you manage to get huge slabs of steel when shipping is so expensive?
[18:25:36] <fragalot> stockpile it on beforehand :p
[18:25:48] <archivist_ub> fragalot, machine gets in the way
[18:26:02] <fragalot> archivist_ub: lousy machine. ^_^
[18:26:16] <archivist_ub> else wonderful toy
[18:29:39] <fragalot> but how easy is maintenance on that thing
[18:29:40] <fragalot> :p
[18:30:52] <archivist_ub> looks easy as it was a cheating animation not the real thing
[18:31:10] <Paragon> Chaps while clearing out stuff in the workshop I came across this item http://srg.hobby-site.com/public/probe1.jpg but I am not sure what it is. It some kind of probe that splits in two. It has an ol din type connector plugged on the end of the cable. looking at the end of the probe I can see metal ring in the center with insulating around the edge and then the metal casing. Sorry for the...
[18:31:11] <Paragon> ...poor quality pictue. Has anyone got any ideas?
[18:31:38] <cradek> that won't load for me
[18:32:15] <cradek> and wget gives me a zero length file
[18:32:23] <toastatwork> i just managed to write a program that caused a stack overflow on our cnc bridgeport
[18:33:02] <archivist_ub> I get no pic
[18:33:06] <Paragon> cradek: That URL I gave wont load?
[18:33:14] <archivist_ub> nope
[18:33:43] <Paragon> OH ok let me check again. I cant test the connection from the outside word.
[18:35:09] <SWPadnos> you should probably change your Belkin router so it doesn't allow remote logins
[18:35:15] <cradek> still no
[18:35:35] <cradek> imagebin?
[18:37:50] <archivist_ub> yes one bad router Paragon
[18:40:44] <fragalot> toastatwork: nice work
[18:41:52] <Paragon> Its case sensitive ....
[18:41:58] <Paragon> back in a sec
[18:42:30] <SWPadnos> that won't work
[18:42:36] <fragalot> http://srg.hobby-site.com/public/probe1.JPG
[18:42:37] <fragalot> 404
[18:42:45] <SWPadnos> 192.168.x.x are unroutable addresses
[18:42:57] <SWPadnos> (over a WAN anyway)
[18:42:58] <fragalot> SWPadnos: they aren't unroutable.
[18:42:59] <fragalot> :p
[18:43:00] <toastatwork> ty fragalot
[18:43:17] <SWPadnos> they're defined as local addresses, and aren't meant to be forwarded over a public network
[18:43:19] <cradek> 404 Not Found
[18:43:30] <fragalot> cradek: better go find it
[18:43:45] <SWPadnos> but a nice shade of purplish-something or other with that 404 :)
[18:45:04] <archivist_ub> I had emc in a unusable state toastatwork I accidently set yards deep with 10 thou feed per cycle
[18:45:21] <toastatwork> lol
[18:46:01] <archivist_ub> had to wait a long time to get control
[18:46:28] <fragalot> oops :p
[18:46:41] <cradek> archivist_ub: hitting escape will stop the file's loading
[18:46:56] <fragalot> * fragalot curses his null modem cable a bit
[18:47:02] <archivist_ub> er I did but its brain was somewhere else
[18:47:04] <fragalot> maybe if i just stuff some wires in :p
[18:48:24] <archivist_ub> cradek basic computer response and mouse became unusable as well
[18:49:46] <toastatwork> this was just a problem in how millpwr handles toolpaths
[18:49:50] <toastatwork> it like, "compiles" them
[18:49:55] <toastatwork> and they have a problem with their "compiler"
[19:15:27] <tomp> does firefox 3 hang for others(ubu 8.04 rt)? it seems i xkill it a lot, maybe always.
[19:17:05] <jepler> tomp: nah, solid here (at least until I use flash plugin)
[19:17:05] <tomp> maybe it's foxmarks
[19:17:13] <tomp> thx
[19:17:57] <archivist_ub> yes its a bit crappy I reload every few days from what I gather it caches dns and fails and hangs
[19:18:41] <tomp> hello ffox 1.5 ;)
[19:18:58] <tomp> or opera
[19:19:05] <SWPadnos> you could at least use 2.something
[19:20:51] <tomp> i got netscape navigator 1.0 on cd still
[19:21:00] <tomp> cds were new then
[19:22:39] <skunkworks_> heh - I think I do too. netscape 1.0
[19:22:54] <archivist_ub> heh /me still had Parogons site remembered from the other day heres his real url http://srg.hobby-site.com:8080/public/probe1.JPG
[19:23:26] <skunkworks_> cradek: nice catch
[19:23:29] <skunkworks_> !
[19:23:32] <archivist_ub> looks like LVDT transducer
[19:25:16] <cradek> skunkworks_: bah
[19:26:08] <cradek> archivist_ub: looks like an ebay photo
[19:26:18] <Paragon> Sorry All got dragged away .... Darned Wife ;-)
[19:26:32] <Paragon> LVDT transducer ?
[19:27:26] <Paragon> google is my freind!
[19:27:39] <archivist_ub> yes two coils and an excitation voltage, they sense distance can be very sensitive
[19:28:18] <archivist_ub> I have one here on my machine can do a few microns
[19:28:58] <Paragon> I guess the object need to be metal right?
[19:29:41] <archivist_ub> well photo doesnt tell me if pointy end is springy
[19:29:42] <tomp> mosaic, thats what netscape's product was called
[19:30:22] <Paragon> Its not.
[19:30:52] <archivist_ub> Paragon btw fix router to pass port 80 to your computer and not give us the login page and your settings
[19:31:37] <Paragon> I can just make out Main body = ADE 2001 and probe end = ADE2102?
[19:32:13] <tomp> lvdt can measure non metal, just solid is enuf
[19:32:22] <Paragon> archivist_ub: Unfortunatly I am unable to change my router default port which is 80. Stupid huh....
[19:32:57] <Paragon> Belkin router has admin fixed on port 80 ....
[19:33:24] <Paragon> tomp: cool
[19:33:43] <archivist_ub> Paragon, yes but should only be visible inside and should route 80 to server from outside
[19:33:54] <Paragon> Next question can this be used with EMC?
[19:34:27] <Paragon> archivist_ub: I leave it open so I can connect from work.
[19:35:00] <archivist_ub> my lvdt has a box reading it then gives limits as levels
[19:35:21] <archivist_ub> or an analogue out
[19:35:48] <tomp> if 'this' is the lvdt, then 'this' needs translation to a number before emc can use it
[19:36:15] <archivist_ub> Paragon my adsl router has whatever ports routed to whichever box internally as needed
[19:36:16] <tomp> could be lvdt->adc->emc
[19:37:42] <tomp> lvdt->adc->lut->interpolater->emc ?
[19:37:45] <archivist_ub> note box excites lvdt as well as its an AC device
[19:38:23] <tomp> ah, like heidenhain sine/cosine scales or a resolver
[19:38:40] <Paragon> archivist_ub: justed logged into my router and trying to find where to make internal only for adm...
[19:38:51] <archivist_ub> closer to resolver internaly as its coils
[19:39:42] <tomp> jon e's new adapter may be an i/f for it
[19:40:40] <archivist_ub> maybe but likely no as its a linear device with one "cycle"
[19:41:55] <Paragon> archivist_ub: Found the setting port 80 and 8080 is open as a virtual host could you try again please?
[19:42:09] <archivist_ub> I mounted mine to do homing measurement
[19:42:40] <archivist_ub> thats better Paragon
[19:42:54] <Paragon> Super :-)
[19:43:17] <Paragon> Back soon...
[19:43:43] <archivist_ub> Paragon you may with to stop Welcome to the My Book World Edition Configuration Manager being visible
[20:12:08] <Paragon> archivist_ub: Unable to do that at moment as I am using the Word Book's internal webserver as a place holder for my pages this is tempary until I install another tighthttp server and change the world books port to somthing other than 80
[20:13:23] <archivist_ub> I use apache here
[20:14:20] <Paragon> Its to fat for the WB's ARM processor hence tighthttp (less load on the processor)
[20:14:49] <Paragon> I do prefer Apache as I understand it better.
[20:15:28] <fenn> http://www.csem.ch/detailed/a_611-pocketdelta.htm mini deltabot
[20:16:20] <fenn> * fenn imagines a convergent assembly of deltabots
[20:19:25] <skunkworks_> playing chineese checkers against each other
[20:19:26] <skunkworks_> ?
[20:20:25] <fenn> with xenon atoms
[20:21:14] <skunkworks_> Nice
[20:23:00] <Paragon> Just took a couple of videos and some pics of my starmill and various bits. Yep messy workshop! http://srg.hobby-site.com/public/cnc (Directory View should be on)
[20:25:26] <DaViruz> what quick change tooling system is that?
[20:25:55] <Paragon> I think it's called Easy Change (EC).
[20:27:15] <Paragon> DaViruz: Are you talking about the mill or the lathe?
[20:27:51] <DaViruz> the mill
[20:28:08] <DaViruz> and thanks :)
[20:28:19] <Paragon> Take a look here it is still being sold http://www.royalprod.com/product.cfm?catID=11
[20:30:35] <Paragon> The EC quick change system is used by twisting the bottom of the holder and inserting the tool holder 3 large ball bearings in the spindle (R8-EC) then lock onto the tool holder.
[20:32:00] <Paragon> BTW did the vid's come out OK?
[20:36:06] <MASEngr> Good afternoon, folks. I've got a quick question.
[20:36:24] <MASEngr> Is there a cycle timer for a job, so we know how long it took to mill a part?
[20:36:25] <Paragon> I would like to stress the workshop had nothing in it last week. Built the worktops and installed what you see over the course of the week. Wired up the Mill with new steppers and drivers and setup the lathes. That's the reason for the mess. The shop is only 8' X 19' so space is a premium. Just screwed a ply board to the wall so as to peg and place tools. It should be more organised soon! :-)
[20:36:44] <cradek> MASEngr: nope
[20:37:06] <MASEngr> Ah, so buy the $25 Timex add-on, then. ;)
[20:37:37] <skunkworks_> could you use the m1XX codes to run a stopwatch program?
[20:37:57] <skunkworks_> assuming there is a stopwatch program for linux
[20:38:08] <Paragon> cradek: how does one eliminate following errors on a stepper system? Change the base thread or something?
[20:38:09] <cradek> yeah there are probably various ways to rig something up
[20:38:50] <cradek> Paragon: there are various ways a stepper system can be misconfigured and get following errors.
[20:39:00] <MASEngr> I'll consider that...
[20:39:45] <Paragon> cradek: No probs. I think Iv'e been through this before sometime ago. I'll go back to the manual.
[20:40:08] <archivist_ub> Paragon, test latency some more
[20:40:09] <MASEngr> Paragon, I retuned the PID loops and eliminated following errors here. I was also able to get a faster speed as a result.
[20:40:22] <cradek> MASEngr: on a stepper system there are no PID loops
[20:40:26] <MASEngr> The loops were *terrible*.
[20:40:37] <MASEngr> Ah, whoops, I misread that as servo.
[20:40:50] <Paragon> Thats for servo I beleive (or closed systems)
[20:41:47] <Paragon> I think I need to do some more latency test as archivist_ub sugested. Thanks anyway.
[20:42:00] <MASEngr> Thanks for the answer about the timer, cradek. I'll see if I can hook something up.
[20:44:34] <Paragon> How does one continue a nc program after stopping it at some point. I did right click and select 'start from here' The program started from there alright but did not start the spinlde as the m03 was at the top of the program?
[20:45:42] <cradek> there are various workarounds. you can start the spindle manually first (F9), if you have [EMCIO]SPINDLE_MODE=0
[20:45:58] <cradek> or, start at a tool change or other safe starting point in your program
[20:47:04] <toastydeath_> toastydeath_ is now known as toasty
[20:47:46] <jepler> cradek: is SPINDLE_MODE in 2.2.6?
[20:48:08] <cradek> ... I don't know
[20:48:34] <jepler> ... I think it's not
[20:50:06] <Paragon> cradek: Can the pluto-p board be used in conjuction with a second para port? I was thinking of running the stepper drives from pluto and a servo from a second para port. While I am at it can the spare pins of the port that pluto is using be used?
[20:50:55] <Paragon> cradek: Oh and thanks for the info re : [EMCIO]SPINDLE_MODE=0
[20:51:15] <jepler> Paragon: I don't think SPINDLE_MODE is available if you are running 2.2.x, it's only in the development version
[20:51:28] <SWPadnos> it's not in 2.2.x
[20:51:31] <cradek> Paragon: you can have more than one parport, yes, but I don't understand the second half of your question
[20:51:59] <Paragon> jepler: I can install the dev head.
[20:52:00] <jepler> you should be able to use one parport with hal_parport and one parport with pluto_step or pluto_servo.
[20:52:06] <SWPadnos> if you're asking whether a pluto can be connected to one parport while the hal_parport driver is used for another, then the answer is yes, it should work
[20:52:39] <Paragon> Thats Great...
[20:52:56] <alex_joni> but there are no spare pins on the parport the pluto is on
[20:53:07] <Paragon> Ebay here I come ... Para please
[20:53:22] <alex_joni> if I understand your last question right..
[20:53:53] <toasty> toasty is now known as toastydeath
[20:53:53] <Paragon> OK so the pluto takes needs the whole para port. Thats what I suspected but I thought I would ask just the same. :-)
[20:54:07] <alex_joni> it needs to, as it uses EPP to communicate
[20:54:22] <alex_joni> but there are probably some leftover pins on the pluto itself..
[20:54:30] <Paragon> I see.
[20:54:48] <Paragon> The pluto is only setup for 3 - axis right?
[20:54:55] <SWPadnos> I might suggest looking at the Mesa 7i43 instead of the pluto. It's actually designed for use in an industrial environment
[20:55:01] <SWPadnos> though I don't know the relative state of the driver
[20:56:53] <jepler> pluto_step has 4 step generators. pluto_servo has 4 PWM generators and 4 encoder counters. So on either one you could run 4 axes. On pluto_servo you can run 3 axes plus spindle motor.
[20:57:11] <jepler> (because running a spindle with feedback takes one PWM + one encoder)
[20:58:52] <Paragon> I see. So could I run 3 step and 1 pwm + encoder? or is it all stepper or all pwm?
[21:00:12] <jepler> it's all stepper ('loadrt pluto_step') or all servo ('loadrt pluto_servo').
[21:00:30] <Paragon> Ok thanks Jepler.
[21:02:16] <Paragon> Just took a look at the Mesa 7i43 so is this recommended for EMC? I could not find the cost.
[21:03:32] <Paragon> DUH just found price list
[21:04:27] <anonimasu> pretty cheap huh?
[21:05:48] <Paragon> $79 - $99 not bad. Would I benfit much from this card? I alread own a pluto-p board
[21:14:26] <toastydeath> durrrrr
[21:17:54] <SWPadnos> Paragon, if you already have the Pluto, then replacing it with the 7i43 may not make sense
[21:18:07] <SWPadnos> the Mesa products are designed for actual use, not for experimentation like the pluto
[21:18:31] <SWPadnos> the FPGA on the 7i43 is considerably larger, and it also has more I/O pins
[21:18:58] <Paragon> Does it work out the box with EMC?
[21:19:28] <SWPadnos> there is a driver, but I don't know how well it works at the moment
[21:19:39] <SWPadnos> and I'm not sure if it's in 2.2.6 or only in TRUNK
[21:19:51] <SWPadnos> I think it's in both, albeit under different names
[21:20:09] <Paragon> Is it still in the dev stage?
[21:20:16] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:20:28] <SWPadnos> but again, I don't know how close to finished it is
[21:20:38] <Paragon> Thanks for the info. SWPadnos .
[21:20:44] <SWPadnos> there's actually a pard programmer working on the code though :)
[21:20:47] <SWPadnos> paid
[21:21:15] <Paragon> Would that be your good self by chance ;-)
[21:21:20] <SWPadnos> nope
[21:21:28] <SWPadnos> it's Seb Kuzminsky
[21:21:55] <Paragon> OK
[21:21:55] <SWPadnos> Peter at Mesa is also quite supportive of EMC (he answers questions and hired Seb ;) )
[21:22:20] <Paragon> Cool
[21:23:15] <SWPadnos> in any case, you should experiment with the Pluto, since you already have it ;)
[21:24:20] <Paragon> I will do. It's a nice little card. Although I really cannot get my head around the language it coded in.
[21:25:19] <Paragon> Verilog right?
[21:25:37] <SWPadnos> I think so
[21:25:54] <SWPadnos> the Mesa stuff is in VHDL, which isn't much better (or worse)
[21:26:32] <Paragon> Oh tahts the other one could'nt remember it
[21:27:08] <fenn> SWPadnos: any suggestions for how to start learning VDHL or verilog?
[21:27:45] <SWPadnos> read some simple programs, look at some tutorials. that's about it unless you want to take a course
[21:27:48] <Paragon> Just started reading this .... http://www.design-reuse.com/articles/7330/fpga-programming-step-by-step.html
[21:29:05] <SWPadnos> there are also several tools that let you put C/C++ code into an FPGA
[21:29:37] <SWPadnos> I know Altium does it now, and one of hte other major FPGA toolsets also
[21:30:48] <Paragon> When I was looking at it sometime ago I did find it interesting. I think one needs to look at coding in another way then the now oop convention. A bit like moving from procedual to C god that hurt me. ;-)
[21:31:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:31:21] <SWPadnos> there's one major thing you have to think about: parallelism
[21:31:44] <Paragon> go on...
[21:31:52] <SWPadnos> when you make an FPGA, all the logic you specify is there, running in parallel
[21:32:13] <Paragon> at the same time.
[21:32:15] <Jymm> then who will win the race?
[21:32:25] <SWPadnos> when you think about programming in C, you may make a commonly used set of operations into a function, and call it from multiple places
[21:32:39] <Paragon> right
[21:32:49] <SWPadnos> when you make a "function" in an FPGA, you'll usually end up with multiple copies of it - one for every place it was used
[21:33:03] <Paragon> ok
[21:33:10] <Jymm> 10 LPRINT CHR$(12) 20 GOTO 10 "We dont need no stickin functions!"
[21:33:19] <SWPadnos> or you have to explicitly multiplex the I/O to the module - selecting only one of the "callers" to use that resource at a time
[21:33:46] <Jymm> Sounds like a party line to me
[21:33:48] <SWPadnos> as for the race, well, that's a problem ;)
[21:33:55] <SWPadnos> party on, dude!
[21:34:08] <Jymm> Tooootally dude!
[21:34:18] <Paragon> yo dude
[21:34:48] <SWPadnos> oh hey - the author of that article founded Cybernetic Microsystems
[21:34:57] <Paragon> does it compare to this at all? http://www.parallax.com/tabid/407/Default.aspx
[21:35:09] <SWPadnos> I think they used to make a motion controller for steppers way back when
[21:35:20] <Jymm> Afreinds 6yo used to call him "dude" all the time, so he would tell him: "I'm not your dude, dude, I'm your dad dude!"
[21:35:28] <SWPadnos> the Propeller - no, not really
[21:35:43] <Paragon> they have multiple processors (cogs) right?
[21:35:49] <SWPadnos> yes, 8 IIRC
[21:36:06] <Paragon> That run in parallel.
[21:36:07] <SWPadnos> that's more or less like a multi-core CPU, with 8 cores
[21:36:11] <SWPadnos> sure, they're in parallel
[21:36:20] <Paragon> ok
[21:36:20] <SWPadnos> but so is the serial port in an AVR/PIC
[21:36:45] <SWPadnos> so in one sense, they're the same - there are pieces of hardware that run at the same time
[21:36:47] <Paragon> right
[21:37:09] <SWPadnos> but as a programmer, you can't change what each of the cores (cogs) does
[21:37:20] <Paragon> So the train of thought is similiar.
[21:37:24] <SWPadnos> err - you can write code for them, but they're still cogs that execute some instruction set
[21:37:49] <SWPadnos> uh - maybe
[21:37:59] <Paragon> where as fpga is pure logic gates?
[21:38:16] <SWPadnos> consider this: you write a program to calculate A = B * C + D
[21:38:28] <Paragon> ok
[21:38:49] <SWPadnos> in a CPU, you'd load some operands, multiply, then add, then store
[21:39:03] <Paragon> sure
[21:39:29] <SWPadnos> in an FPGA, there will be a multiplier with two inputs, the output of which is fed into an adder with two inputs
[21:40:08] <Paragon> thus giving D
[21:40:15] <SWPadnos> there will also be some enable / clock shenanigans (hopefully automatic) so the adder only uses a valid set of B*C and D inputs
[21:40:18] <SWPadnos> giving A :)
[21:40:42] <Paragon> ooops I meant A ... must be getting tired. lol
[21:40:54] <SWPadnos> if you then want to have F = G * H + I, the FPGA will need one of two things:
[21:41:12] <SWPadnos> either you add another multiplier/adder block, connected to the other inputs
[21:41:36] <SWPadnos> or you add multiplexers so you can switch between one set of inputs/outputs and the other
[21:41:50] <Paragon> got it.
[21:42:23] <SWPadnos> so the optimization techniques are different for parallel systems like an FPGA vs. sequential ones like a CPU
[21:42:46] <Paragon> I see.
[21:42:55] <SWPadnos> (and I only know about 2% of what's needed to be considered an "expert" ;) )
[21:42:59] <SWPadnos> maybe less
[21:45:41] <Paragon> BTW what I meant by earlier message was ... I started coding in 6502 assembly and then moved to C I found the transition hard to grasp. Mainly due to the fact that in assembly one needs to do just about everything where as in C there where function already available to call. The same whent for moving to OOP from C ie Java and classes etc etc
[21:46:15] <SWPadnos> yah - learning a new syntax is pretty easy. it's learning which wheels you don't have to reinvent that's hard
[21:46:30] <SWPadnos> hmmm. 6502 - Apple, Atari, or Commodore? :)
[21:46:33] <Paragon> exactly
[21:47:43] <Paragon> Commodore Vic 20 then commodore 64 > then 128 and finaly the good old Amiga. Saved all my pocket money for the US Amiga import. Oh how I miss the golden years! :-)
[21:47:51] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:47:54] <SWPadnos> A500 FTW!
[21:48:48] <Paragon> NO first one was the A1000 with 256k of memory. It had a base unit. I then bought the A500.
[21:48:54] <SWPadnos> oh right.
[21:49:04] <SWPadnos> I never had one - just had a couple of friends with them
[21:49:23] <SWPadnos> I had a TI 99/4A, then an Atari 800XL
[21:49:37] <Paragon> Chipset names where Agnus, Denise and Paula ... lol
[21:49:47] <SWPadnos> Agnes
[21:50:09] <SWPadnos> our high school computer club designed and built a memory expansion for the VIC-20 - a whopping 16 or 32k!
[21:50:22] <Paragon> Your correct Agnes. Got it was a while ago.
[21:50:26] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:50:43] <SWPadnos> don't forget Sid in the C64
[21:51:06] <Paragon> Sid .... Sound Chip right...
[21:51:23] <SWPadnos> yep. and the funky graphics memory arrangement
[21:51:51] <skunkworks> I loved the TI
[21:51:59] <Paragon> I first started on an old Commodore PET which had a membrane keyboard.
[21:52:03] <SWPadnos> say "this is unintelligible"
[21:52:18] <SWPadnos> yep, and there was the SuperPET also
[21:52:41] <Paragon> That had a proper keyboard did it not
[21:52:44] <skunkworks> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/parsec2.PNG
[21:52:58] <skunkworks> Press redo or back
[21:53:39] <SWPadnos> hmmm. looks a bit like the Atari game "Tail of Beta Lyrae"
[21:53:49] <Paragon> lol .... The games where fun to play then. Is it that I am getting older or was the game play that much better than todays graphic intensive games?
[21:54:48] <Paragon> Attack of the muttant cammels (Jeff minter), Elite (ported from BBC Micro) Arrr Nastalgia.
[21:54:49] <skunkworks> My peak gaming was doom 2
[21:54:52] <dmess> super pet had a proper keyboard and 120 character wide screen
[21:54:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:55:13] <SWPadnos> I don't remember it being 120 chars across
[21:55:23] <dmess> i nursed on PET's vic's and c64's
[21:55:24] <SWPadnos> it was certainly 80 (rather than the common 40 at the time)
[21:55:28] <Paragon> I thought it was 80
[21:55:35] <dmess> ok 80
[21:55:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:55:46] <dmess> the pet was 40
[21:56:06] <SWPadnos> and green
[21:56:17] <Paragon> Love Green :-)
[21:56:39] <dmess> but the super pet had FLOPPY's yes GREEN some CBM's had amber
[21:57:18] <dmess> they also had 16k ram option for 32k
[21:57:55] <Paragon> My first real job was working on IBM3270 mainframe's in the mid 80's. The elders still walked around dressed in white coats with pens in there breast pocket. Oh not to mention long hair and sandles. hehehe
[21:57:58] <archivist_ub> not all pets were green screen
[21:58:08] <dmess> i swear the optomitist still sees burned in basic in the back of my eyeball
[21:58:19] <archivist_ub> I still have my PET
[21:58:43] <archivist_ub> was too modified to sell /let go
[21:58:51] <dmess> i still have a c64 in the original box somewhere
[21:58:51] <Paragon> No way ... that cool archivist_ub , Ithink ;-)
[21:59:05] <archivist_ub> added S100 bus and eurocard to it
[22:00:16] <archivist_ub> had the 8k had 8k static S100 and 16k dynamic S100 in it as well
[22:01:06] <archivist_ub> tested it a year ago and its slightly deaded 0k ram!
[22:01:27] <Paragon> oh dear.
[22:02:44] <archivist_ub> base 8 k probably or a buffer chip
[22:11:44] <skunkworks> Paragon: seb just joined..
[22:12:08] <Paragon> Arr yes
[22:12:22] <seb_kuzminsky> arr
[22:13:25] <Paragon> Seb it's been mentioned that you are working on 7i43 board code for EMC. At what state is it at?
[22:13:59] <seb_kuzminsky> it's usable and ready to go in TRUNK. it's pretty miserable in 2.2.6... :-/
[22:14:04] <Paragon> btw I was just reading this article. Very Interesting stuf http://www.design-reuse.com/articles/7330/fpga-programming-step-by-step.html
[22:14:27] <seb_kuzminsky> what are you trying to do with it?
[22:14:31] <seb_kuzminsky> (with the 7i43 that is)
[22:15:31] <Paragon> Cool. I currently have a pluto-p board that I was going to play with but the 7i43 was recommended. It would be use to drive steppers and a servo on a four axis mill
[22:16:15] <seb_kuzminsky> both servos and stepper should work fine in TRUNK
[22:16:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm driving two of each, and using a third servo (with the motor powered off) as an MPG
[22:16:57] <seb_kuzminsky> this is on my test bench, i dont have it hooked up to any machines here yet
[22:17:00] <Paragon> Can they be mixed? Ie 3 steppers xyz and a servo / encoder for A axis?
[22:17:04] <seb_kuzminsky> sure
[22:17:40] <seb_kuzminsky> there's a firmware with 4 steppers and 4 servos, use any combination, whatever ones you dont want become gpios for things like limit switches etc
[22:17:50] <Paragon> Seb do you know how much the delivery charges are to the UK?
[22:18:14] <seb_kuzminsky> no idea... mail pcw@mesanet.com and ask, tell him i sent you ;-)
[22:18:35] <Paragon> Sure thing Seb.
[22:20:36] <Paragon> BTW will I see a massive inprovement with regards to motion speed. I think the limiting factor for me at the mo is EMC driving the pulses via the para port. The stepper drivers I have go to something like 52000 micro steps from memory.
[22:21:13] <Paragon> or 5200 mabe
[22:21:22] <seb_kuzminsky> the 7i43 will be insanely much faster than stepping over the parport
[22:22:16] <Paragon> Good stuff. Thanks again seb and all.... I'm off to bed. Night All :-)
[22:22:26] <seb_kuzminsky> good night :-)
[22:23:05] <Paragon> OH one last thing what board shoud I go for I understand there are three version right?
[22:23:23] <Paragon> Para only or usb / para ?
[22:24:39] <seb_kuzminsky> the usb part of the 7i43 is totally unused by emc2
[22:24:59] <seb_kuzminsky> i'd go for the larger of the FPGAs, and the board without USB if it's cheaper
[22:25:48] <Paragon> When you say larger are they all compatible or do they need to from the 7i range?
[22:26:30] <seb_kuzminsky> the 7i43 is available with a 200Kgate FPGA or a 400Kgate FPGA, i'm saying i'd choose the one with the bigger FPGA
[22:26:53] <seb_kuzminsky> they're compatible other than FPGA size
[22:27:10] <seb_kuzminsky> make sense? i'm not exactly sure what you're asking
[22:27:27] <Paragon> Oh I see. Thanks again Seb
[22:28:12] <seb_kuzminsky> sure :-)
[22:38:04] <seb_kuzminsky> laters
[23:05:00] <toastyde1th> toastyde1th is now known as toastydeath
[23:08:41] <archivist_ub> archivist_ub is now known as archivist
[23:24:55] <LawrenceG> somewhere I saw a program to make gcode for cutting xl timing pulleys.... anybody have a link?
[23:33:01] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: it begins with http://
[23:33:15] <LawrenceG> :} thanks
[23:34:27] <LawrenceG> it was probably a cnczone post, but I am not having any luck finding it
[23:34:29] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cad2gcode.com/pulley/
[23:35:12] <JymmmEMC> that?
[23:35:35] <LawrenceG> hmmm could be... not free I see
[23:35:38] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cambam.co.uk/docs/tutorials/profile.html
[23:36:42] <JymmmEMC> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-14963.html
[23:39:57] <LabRat> After compiling the the emc2-trunk source code I get the following error when trying to run emc on my custom built hardy rtai kernel - http://pastebin.com/m4c711d17
[23:40:07] <LabRat> Can anyone help?
[23:41:27] <jepler> #
[23:41:28] <jepler> /home/earl/emc2-trunk/scripts/emc: line 390: emc.nml: No such file or directory
[23:41:45] <jepler> your configuration directory should have the file emc.nml in it. usually that is copied into each sample directory by 'make'
[23:42:10] <jepler> e.g., copied from configs/common/emc.nml to configs/sim/emc.nml
[23:42:54] <jepler> hm there's also this error, earlier in the run:
[23:42:54] <jepler> #
[23:42:55] <jepler> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime/modules/rtai_sched.ko': -1 Unknown symbol in module
[23:43:03] <jepler> related to this item in the dmesg: #
[23:43:04] <jepler> [ 134.948453] rtai_sched: Unknown symbol rtheap_alloc
[23:45:01] <jepler> on my system, rtai_sched.ko defines rtheap_alloc: jepler@hardly:/usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules$ nm rtai_sched.ko | grep rtheap_alloc
[23:45:04] <jepler> jepler@hardly:/usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules$ nm rtai_sched.ko | grep rtheap_alloc
[23:45:07] <jepler> 0000000000011c80 T rtheap_alloc
[23:45:48] <jepler> can you run the rtai testsuite, such as kern/latency?
[23:46:54] <LabRat> yes the /usr/realtime/testsuite/user/latency etc tests all run without errors
[23:47:22] <jepler> what rtai version?
[23:47:31] <LabRat> 3.6.1
[23:48:45] <LabRat> all 6 testsuite tests run without errors
[23:49:04] <jepler> both user/ and kern/
[23:49:08] <jepler> ?
[23:49:18] <LabRat> yes both user and kern
[23:49:22] <jepler> while the kern/latency test is running, run "lsmod" and pastebin the output for me please
[23:50:52] <archivist> LawrenceG, are you using a rotary axis?
[23:51:21] <LabRat> http://pastebin.com/m733c930b lsmod output
[23:53:27] <jepler> LabRat: I suspect that emc requires RTAI_MALLOC=y at rtai configure time, but you have RTAI_MALLOC=m
[23:53:45] <LawrenceG> archivist, that was the plan.... I have a rotary axis that I was going to add a stepper drive
[23:54:40] <jepler> LabRat: on your system, loading the kernel module rtai_malloc is required but emc doesn't know about rtai_malloc.
[23:55:33] <jepler> for better or for worse, emc is not able to use modprobe to automatically figure out module dependencies, nor does it use rtai-style .runinfo files; it doesn't always adapt to these different situations
[23:56:16] <LawrenceG> archivist, then grind a cutter using a commercial pulley as a gauge
[23:58:32] <archivist> LawrenceG, ok then my gcode will be useful
[23:58:43] <LabRat> yes RTAI_MALLOC=m is what is in my .rtai_config file
[23:59:17] <jepler> LabRat: for what it's worth, the hardy/amd64 rtai is configured with the configure script (not 'make menuconfig' or the like) and the flags shown here: http://pastebin.com/m3177a3a6
[23:59:26] <LawrenceG> archivist, python?