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[12:52:30] <psha[work]> jthornton: may you clarify me one more time - what's wrong with recent lyx?
[12:53:34] <jthornton> Nothing is wrong with it, you just can't use it to edit the docs
[12:55:19] <psha[work]> 'what's wrong with lyx applied to docs'? :)
[12:57:05] <jthornton> you can only use LyX version 1.5.3 to edit the docs... I don't know why except it will break things if you use version 1.6.5
[12:57:39] <psha[work]> it's doing something incompatible with old lyx?
[12:58:08] <jthornton> I guess so
[12:59:00] <psha[work]> so question is in moving from old lyx to new one is that it's not revertable and need one big step?
[12:59:28] * psha[work] forgot beginnig of the phrase in the middle of writing...
[13:00:28] <jthornton> I'm not sure what gets broken but, jepler knows
[13:00:56] <psha[work]> i'll wait for him then...
[13:01:11] <psha[work]> sooner or later this switch have to be done
[13:01:43] <jthornton> Yes, I agree... perhaps when 2.5 is released that can happen
[13:02:13] <jthornton> I think it has something to do with support for 8.04
[13:03:46] <psha[work]> LTS support is 5 years :)
[13:03:48] <jepler> psha[work]: every different version of lyx writes a different format of .lyx file
[13:04:07] <jepler> psha[work]: as a consequence, ubuntu 8.04's lyx can't generate pdf documentation from a .lyx file written with ubuntu 10.04
[13:04:53] <jepler> there's a program called lyx2lyx that can convert among different .lyx document formats, but it is not idempotent so it is shitty to use with git (makes big nonsense diffs)
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[13:05:23] <jepler> so as a result, we edit lyx files with the oldest version of lyx from among all the platforms we wish to release packages for
[13:05:31] <psha[work]> i see
[13:05:38] <jepler> for v2.4_branch, that's the lyx on ubuntu 8.04.
[13:05:57] <psha[work]> 2.5 will be supported on 8.04 too?
[13:06:09] <psha[work]> it seem to be widely used
[13:06:34] <jepler> (I think idempotent is the word I mean. If you load a lyx 1.5.3 document in lyx 1.6.5, save it, then use lyx2lyx to convert to version 1.5.3, there are changes according to 'git diff' even though no meaningful changes to the document were intended)
[13:07:04] <psha[work]> maybe use lyx2lyx during build process?
[13:07:06] <jepler> psha[work]: that's a question for the 2.5 release manager. I believe we shouldn't, because 8.04 will leave desktop support in April
[13:07:22] <jepler> psha[work]: no, ubuntu 8.04's lyx2lyx can't read lyx 1.6.5 documents, only 1.5.3 and older
[13:07:29] <jepler> so you have to *commit* a 1.5.3-compatible lyx file
[13:08:09] <psha[work]> thx for explanation
[13:08:48] <jepler> It's a crummy situation. If we were starting from scratch and knew this, I doubt we would have chosen lyx.
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[13:09:52] <psha[work]> are there sane alternatives?
[13:10:40] <psha[work]> i'm using things like asciidoc but i bet they are not suitable for large projects
[13:10:55] <jepler> I looked at asciidoc too
[13:11:23] <jthornton> I looked at it too a while back
[13:11:48] <jepler> but ultimately I didn't think there was anything "better enough", particularly in view of the fact that it would require a tool to convert all those lyx files to the new format
[13:14:06] <jepler> personally I don't care one bit about the pdf documentation, so if it were up to me I'd convert it all to wiki markup so that I could blame others even more for things that are missing in the documentation :-P
[13:15:04] <jepler> but the way people will arrive at events like CNC workshop with 5" binders filled with printed emc documentation makes me think I'm alone in the world
[13:17:28] <psha[work]> i see there was already discussion on 2008.10 about lyx/other formats
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[13:18:08] <psha[work]> pdf docs are great when it comes to priting...
[13:18:19] <psha[work]> also i've pdf version of integrator manual on my phone :)
[13:19:04] <jepler> whatever makes you happy
[13:19:17] <jepler> I wouldn't want that unless my phone was about 7" long on the short side
[13:21:04] <psha[work]> i was going to the place without network and without computer and have to study docs :)
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[13:24:19] <jepler> bbl
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[15:28:02] <SWPadnos> jepler, you could probably be happy with the Archos 10 then:
https://store.archos.com/archos-internet-tablet-p-5005.html
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[15:46:41] <psha[work]> bb
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[21:16:29] <psha> JT-Shop: ping?
[21:17:50] <JT-Shop> pong
[21:18:06] <JT-Shop> only here for a minute then back
[21:18:20] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/tmp/gladevcp.html
[21:18:25] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/tmp/gladevcp.pdf
[21:18:27] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/tmp/gladevcp.txt
[21:18:40] <psha> i've played a bit with asciidoc as a doc format
[21:20:25] <JT-Shop> better looking html I think
[21:20:43] <psha> better looking source ;)
[21:20:50] <psha> html is a matter of used css
[21:21:09] <psha> as usual images in pdf's are wierd
[21:21:53] <JT-Shop> yea, they are a pain with LyX and the pdf output
[21:22:15] <psha> raster images are always pain with pdf/ps...
[21:22:27] <psha> if they are not over 9000x9000
[21:22:29] <JT-Shop> can you make the images not scale in the pdf somehow
[21:23:29] <JT-Shop> be back in a bit
[21:26:16] <psha> 'fop' in place of 'dblatex' provides even worse results
[21:39:18] <JT-Shop> yea, I played with some of the options about a year ago
[21:43:17] <psha> as i recall it's limitation of pdflatex
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[21:43:42] <psha> but i can not remember how i've overcome it...
[21:43:52] <psha> i'm usualy using vector graphics for papers
[21:47:42] <psha> i'm leaving now - so let theese to hang around
[21:48:36] <psha> i still don't know if it makes sense to use asciidoc for docs but maybe some clear mind will look at it and say "that's crap! throw it away" or something else
[21:48:45] <psha> bb all
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[22:27:13] <dgarr> for consideration:
http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/stuff/0001-twopass-hal-configuration.patch
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[22:35:13] <SWPadnos> dgarr, cool!
[22:35:41] <SWPadnos> I guess names are recommended then :)
[22:36:11] <dgarr> yes names= gives you complete control (for items supporting names= anyway)
[22:36:18] <SWPadnos> yeah
[22:36:40] <SWPadnos> it would be possible, but confusing, to keep track of instance numbers
[22:36:58] <SWPadnos> since they'd be different in HAL than they are in the files
[22:37:54] <SWPadnos> ie, after some file loads 3 "and2" and refers to them as 0-2, another loads one and refers to it as 0, in HAL, they would be 0-3, and one from the second file would be #3
[22:38:21] <SWPadnos> bbl, dinner!
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