#emc-devel | Logs for 2011-01-10

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[06:42:02] -verne.freenode.net:#emc-devel- [freenode-info] why register and identify? your IRC nick is how people know you. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup
[06:42:07] <psha> logger[psha]: ping
[06:42:20] <psha> logs are living in http://psha.org.ru/irc/
[06:43:59] <psha> problem is that for jogs done with GtkActions you need tons of them
[06:46:01] <psha> ah, i've found problem with bot
[06:47:13] <mhaberler> aja
[06:47:27] <mhaberler> skunkworks: around?
[06:47:38] <psha> i think he's sleeping
[06:48:52] <mhaberler> Sir, I've been ordered to accompany Madam for breakfeast - forced to disconnect ;-)
[06:49:04] <mhaberler> cu, bbl
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[09:47:33] <psha> logger[psha]: ping
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[09:51:01] <psha> mhaberler: here?
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[10:00:46] <mhaberler> yes, Sir!
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[10:34:41] <mhaberler> I think a Home Action with an Axis mask attribute should do
[10:35:01] <psha> i've fixed bot reconnect :)
[10:35:15] <mhaberler> ah, good, I like that log
[10:35:35] <psha> enabled keepalive + removed trapping of connect errors
[10:35:53] <psha> hm, axis mask?
[10:36:18] <psha> via hal or glade?
[10:36:25] <mhaberler> yes, either attribute or hal pin for axis mask, an u32
[10:36:29] <mhaberler> let me think
[10:36:51] <mhaberler> driving the mask pin is a bit of a mess
[10:37:22] <mhaberler> the best solution would be userdata in glade but thats a bit broken
[10:37:49] <psha> why mask?
[10:37:53] <mhaberler> because you only can pass an object, not a literal value
[10:37:59] <psha> is it common need to home _some_ axis?
[10:38:18] <mhaberler> so you can set which axis to home
[10:38:20] <mhaberler> well, see Axis
[10:38:28] <psha> it's either 'home all' or home one axis
[10:38:29] <mhaberler> either home all, or home x, home y, home z
[10:38:40] <psha> so it's better to see as index with optional value of '-1'
[10:38:44] <psha> to identify 'all'
[10:39:00] <psha> like emc.command.home
[10:39:43] <mhaberler> fair enough. internally they are usually masks of bit 0-8 for x-w
[10:40:31] <psha> problem is that if axis is selected from glade it's too vebose
[10:40:33] <psha> verbose
[10:40:44] <psha> see current gaxis.ui at http://psha.org.ru/tmp/gaxis.ui
[10:40:51] <psha> there are 3 home, 3 unhome actions
[10:41:00] <psha> and for jogs there have to be another 6 of them!
[10:41:57] <alex_joni> psha: look at halui+pyvcp example
[10:42:05] <alex_joni> lots of home/unhome buttons iirc
[10:42:42] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/haluihalvcp.png
[10:42:47] <alex_joni> that's a really old pic
[10:43:00] <psha> yea, i've seen it
[10:43:12] <alex_joni> ok then
[10:43:17] * alex_joni goes back to lurking
[10:43:27] <psha> current implementation is nearly equivalent to that
[10:43:40] <psha> you have to add separate home/unhome/jog action for each axis
[10:44:09] <mhaberler> well it's either attribute, hal pin or event userdata
[10:44:57] <psha> hm, userdata...
[10:45:29] <psha> it's useless
[10:45:37] <mhaberler> yes, pretty much
[10:45:54] <psha> unfortunately glade is not capable of connecting signals to signals
[10:45:58] <psha> only widgets to actions
[10:46:05] <psha> with fixed connection format
[10:46:38] <mhaberler> where would you need a sig/sig connection?
[10:46:46] <psha> for example jog
[10:46:58] <psha> jog+ and jog- needs to be separate actions
[10:47:07] <mhaberler> to have sig x in wwidget y cause action z in widget foo?
[10:47:18] <psha> yea, something like that...
[10:47:59] <psha> situation may be much cleaner if it would be possible create actions programaticaly
[10:48:00] <mhaberler> homebrew connector widget?
[10:49:18] <psha> lets consider more simple example
[10:49:34] <psha> changing view in Gremlin
[10:49:42] <psha> x, y, z, or p (perspective)
[10:49:49] <mhaberler> ok
[10:50:16] <psha> way i see is to add 'change view' action which may be bound to gremlin
[10:50:23] <alex_joni> i (isometric) :P
[10:50:29] <psha> alex_joni: i = p
[10:50:52] <psha> really there also z2 but i'll omit it :)
[10:51:15] <psha> really not plain action but radio action
[10:51:44] <psha> so you have to create gremlin, clone 4 instances of 'change view' actions and connect them to buttons
[10:52:00] <psha> that's at least 9 widgets for gremlin and 4 buttons...
[10:52:04] <psha> hm, maybe not so much :)
[10:54:05] <alex_joni> psha: i != p
[10:54:30] <psha> lexicaly - not :)
[10:54:37] <mhaberler> why dont you just do it in callbacks in gremlin then if action bloats it?
[10:55:01] <psha> i try to avoid python code...
[10:55:08] <psha> as much as possible
[10:55:23] <mhaberler> wont bite you
[10:55:33] <psha> if there is some common boilerplate code needed i'm trying to put it into actions/etc
[10:56:29] <psha> now i'm stuck with jogs/home....
[10:56:46] <psha> !
[10:57:07] <psha> home may be done with 'current axis' radio group
[10:57:30] <psha> thus you may implement widgets like in Axis
[10:57:50] <psha> radio selector for axes and one home/jog+/jog- buttons
[10:58:12] <psha> alex_joni: in backplot there is no isometric view i think...
[10:58:52] <alex_joni> psha: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/41/Graphical_projection_comparison.png
[10:59:39] <psha> yea, i understand difference between isometric and perspective...
[10:59:52] <alex_joni> I would think that isometric is easier to setup
[11:00:09] <alex_joni> but.. whatever :D
[11:00:46] <psha> backplot depends on opengl :)
[11:00:47] <alex_joni> psha: you can also group indicators with selected joints
[11:01:09] <psha> i think you may suppress depth there to get isometric
[11:01:11] <alex_joni> like leds that show limits, faults, etc
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[11:02:07] <psha> then there have to be some sane way to introduce 'selected joint'
[11:03:43] <alex_joni> 12:55 < psha> radio selector for axes and one home/jog+/jog- buttons
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[11:04:00] <psha> that's what use see :)
[11:04:10] <psha> s/use/user :)
[11:04:17] <alex_joni> right
[11:04:20] <psha> radio selector is only one way
[11:04:25] <alex_joni> also, I have one request for you guys
[11:04:33] <alex_joni> if you are coding this from scratch...
[11:04:47] <alex_joni> please try to make the distinction between joints and axes
[11:04:52] <alex_joni> so that we don't have to fix it later
[11:05:09] <alex_joni> I know it's not easy atm, as things are pretty tangled in emc2 :/
[11:05:17] <psha> heh, then you have to point me to differencies
[11:05:22] <psha> joint is physical joint?
[11:05:53] <psha> ja3 would not be merged into 2.5?
[11:16:13] <psha> alex_joni: ping?
[11:17:49] <psha> hey, you interested me and run away!
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[12:53:14] <alex_joni> psha: sorry, got distracted
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[13:54:17] <cradek> I think we might want to merge ja3 right after making v2.5_branch
[13:54:34] <cradek> in my trials, ja3 almost works right
[13:55:16] <skunkworks> Neat!
[13:57:23] <skunkworks> crap - I missed mhaberler
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[14:12:20] <micges> cradek: I agree
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[14:14:04] <alex_joni> cradek: cool
[14:14:52] <skunkworks> hey alex
[14:15:17] <cradek> haha http://www.starcitywebcam.com/images/cam1l.jpg
[14:15:19] <alex_joni> hey sam
[14:15:36] <alex_joni> cradek: brr
[14:15:52] <cradek> today everything is white
[14:16:54] <skunkworks> it is a winter wonderland!
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[17:33:38] <psha> logger[psha]: ping
[17:33:46] <psha> alive :)
[17:35:30] <psha> alex_joni: illuminate the difference between axis and joints :
[17:35:31] <psha> :)
[17:36:34] <cradek> joints are sliding or rotating things run by a motor
[17:36:47] <cradek> axes are the orthogonal measurements of XYZ space
[17:37:19] <psha> so there is only 5 axis?
[17:37:33] <cradek> well there are 9
[17:37:45] <cradek> two sets of three orthogonal, and three rotations
[17:37:54] <SWPadnos> 9: XYZ for cartesian location, ABC for orientation, and UVW, a "spare" set of cartesian coordinates
[17:38:10] <psha> SO(3) has 5 bases :)
[17:39:08] <psha> so really axis is not strictly offsets in XYZ but kind of movable directions?
[17:39:33] <psha> and joints is only viewed by EMC internaly?
[17:39:57] <SWPadnos> joints are what make the tool move to a point in XYZ space
[17:40:07] <cradek> gcode programming is done in axis-space
[17:40:40] <SWPadnos> they may be linear joints that correspond 1:1 with axes, or you could have something hanging on wires, with the joints being the spools
[17:40:51] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23emc-devel/2011-01-10.html#11:04:47
[17:40:56] <psha> what he means?
[17:41:17] <psha> yes, i know that there are nontrivial kinematics modules
[17:41:24] <psha> like robotic arms
[17:42:30] <SWPadnos> when you jog, you might want to move in coordinate space, or you might want to move a single joint, for instance to get it into a position where you can safely home a different joint
[17:43:06] <psha> so i have to leave possibility for user to jog either in 'world mode' (axis) or particular joints?
[17:43:16] <SWPadnos> I think what Alex was asking there was that you're making user interface elements for jogging, please think about the fact that there are two modes ahead of time :)
[17:43:25] <cradek> yes the guis have to let the user pick which thing to jog
[17:43:26] <SWPadnos> yes, I'd say that's a good idea
[17:44:14] <psha> i've to check python emcmodule but i think it's only capable of jogging of 'axis'
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[17:46:28] <psha> hm, speaking in terms of NML commands
[17:46:50] <psha> is it possible to request joint jog?
[17:47:04] <cradek> normal jog is joint jog. axis jog is 'teleop vector' style
[17:47:13] <cradek> it's going to be different after the ja3 merge
[17:47:40] <cradek> I'm not sure of all the details, actually
[17:48:00] <cradek> lunch, bbl
[17:48:08] <psha> that's why i was interested in ja3 branch
[17:48:10] <psha> cradek: enjoy
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[20:30:15] <psha> cradek: so to summarize what was mentioned: now there is only one jog mode and it's moving in 'teleop'(?) mode
[20:30:29] <cradek> no
[20:30:47] <psha> somewhere in near future there will be two jog modes available - let me name them 'joint' and 'axis' jogs
[20:30:53] <cradek> yes
[20:30:59] <cradek> (as my understanding anyway)
[20:31:19] <psha> heh, let rely on your undestanding - it's only thing we have now :)
[20:31:37] <psha> jog available now is 'joint' or 'axis'?
[20:32:12] <cradek> today we have jogging (move one joint) and teleop (move in a certain direction at a certain velocity in axis space)
[20:32:48] <cradek> in ja3 teleop I understand is replaced to be more like jogging
[20:32:53] <cradek> micges would know more
[20:33:24] <cradek> I am not sure what alex wants you to do with your new widgets. work on teleop mode right now would probably be wasted
[20:34:15] <psha> i think i'll just stick to current jog implemented in emcmodule
[20:34:53] <psha> which is used by axis - so it's 'joint' jog
[20:35:07] <cradek> (axis also knows how to do teleop)
[20:35:15] <cradek> but yes joint jog is the important one
[20:35:23] <jepler> actually, axis *can* issue teleop_vector depending on motion_mode .. but for a trivial kinematics machine I think it issues joint jogs always
[20:35:37] <jepler> see 'def jog_on' in axis.py
[20:36:38] <psha> TRAJ_MODE_*?
[20:37:44] <psha> yes, i see now
[20:38:29] <jepler> so I guess what I'd do now is implement the jogs that are in terms of c.jog and name the pins joint.#.something
[20:38:57] <jepler> when ja3 is merged and the better cartesian jogging for nontrivial kinematics machines is ready, then add that with pins axis.#.something
[20:39:08] <jepler> (by c.jog I mean the jog method of emc.command object)
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[20:40:31] <psha> that's nearly what i was going to do :)
[20:41:01] <psha> do joint (c.jog) joints now, if real need in teleop jogs will raise - provide them as separate temporary solution
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[20:43:33] <psha> jepler: in ja3 number of joints may be not equal to number of axis?
[20:43:43] <cradek> true
[20:45:13] <jepler> yes. it seems like #joints >= #axes but I bet even that's false
[20:45:46] <jepler> if you have a part program for a motorized knee mill with Z and W and want to run it on a non-knee mill you could use kinematics to make joint2=z+w
[20:45:53] <jepler> .. so 3 joints, 4 axes
[20:47:24] <psha> sorry for dumb question, what is knee mill?
[20:48:09] <psha> it's mill where table is moving and spindle is fixed?
[20:48:38] <cradek> knee mill means the table moves up and down
[20:48:44] <jepler> I'm thinking of what wikipedia calls it a "turret mill" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milling_machine#Vertical_mill
[20:48:55] <jepler> > A turret mill has a stationary spindle and the table is moved both perpendicular and parallel to the spindle axis to accomplish cutting. The most common example of this type is the Bridgeport, described below. Turret mills often have a quill which allows the milling cutter to be raised and lowered in a manner similar to a drill press. This type of machine provides two methods of cutting in the vertical (Z) direction: by raising
[20:48:56] <cradek> the common bridgeport machines are knee mills
[20:49:26] <psha> thanks
[20:49:27] <jepler> so basically it is a kind of mill that has two parts that can both move in the Z direction -- the "quill" and the "knee"
[20:50:06] <jepler> in a cnc bridgeport, commonly the quill is CNC'd and the knee is manual or has a manually-operated motor
[20:51:15] <psha> that's why you refer to z = z + w
[20:51:31] <psha> i've just missed point that both spindle and table may move
[20:51:40] <jepler> yes, I think you understand now
[20:52:13] <psha> btw may you pick gladevcp branch
[20:52:33] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/cgit/psha/emc2.git/log/?h=gladevcp
[20:52:46] <psha> except usual gladevcp work there is Axis MDI history fix
[20:52:51] <psha> JT tested it and it seem ok
[20:54:39] <jepler> thanks. merged..
[20:54:49] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * r86374136ec20 10/lib/python/gladevcp/ (hal_mdihistory.py hal_python.xml hal_pythonplugin.py): gladevcp: Add MDI history widget
[20:54:50] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * r50c448410ea5 10/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: axis: Read MDI history file name from INI file
[20:54:51] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * r2c3f884d6131 10/lib/python/gladevcp/ (hal_actions.py hal_python.xml): gladevcp: Add radio actions for ESTOP and Power
[20:54:54] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * r4617dd347996 10/lib/python/gladevcp/hal_actions.py: gladevcp: Fix axis properties in Home/Unhome actions
[20:54:55] <CIA-53> EMC: 03jepler 07master * rb632025b36ef 10/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Merge remote branch 'psha/gladevcp'
[20:55:18] <psha> thanks
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[20:55:43] <psha> so i'm clean before fighting jogs :)
[20:56:11] <jepler> good luck
[20:56:18] <jepler> do me a favor and please don't go looking for bugs in axis jogging
[20:56:25] <jepler> particularly don't try mouse and keyboard jogs at the same time
[20:57:00] <cradek> shh
[20:57:02] <cradek> don't listen to jepler
[20:57:21] <cradek> it's all perfect
[20:57:24] <cradek> and if it's not, please do fix it
[20:57:26] <cradek> :-)
[20:57:27] <psha> i'll try :) i understand that there at least ~1/3 of broken control paths :)
[20:58:10] <psha> at now i even don't understand how to fit jogging into gtk...
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[22:05:07] <skunkworks> heh - from my web host ' At this time we are currently investigating the matters which took place that caused this unforeseen power issue.'
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[23:16:42] <andypugh> cradek: Thanks for converting that patch. No idea why the patches I make never want to apply.
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