#emc | Logs for 2011-08-30

[00:00:58] <cncbasher> you may find trying it in a terminal window , untill you get the right combination
[00:01:06] <cncbasher> is easier
[00:01:09] <Tom_itx> yeah
[00:01:47] <cncbasher> i dont have 9.2 so i'm stuck to help
[00:01:55] <Tom_itx> it's ok
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[00:05:33] <cncbasher> could i suggest you open the settings.sh file and see what the xilinx path is shown
[00:05:46] <cncbasher> and copy it across
[00:06:23] <cncbasher> you need to set it to the location of the settings.sh file
[00:07:04] <cncbasher> so if that is different than the ISE folder then thats why
[00:07:37] <Tom_itx> the first line is correct. it runs ise
[00:07:42] <cncbasher> ok
[00:08:30] <cncbasher> in 9.2 that line may not be required
[00:10:32] <cncbasher> remove the line source ....
[00:11:05] <cncbasher> and insert . ~/xilinx92i/..... etc
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[00:14:05] <Tom_itx> ok the 2nd line run in the term i get permission denied
[00:15:04] <cncbasher> try running under sudo
[00:15:24] <Tom_itx> i did the sudo su thing
[00:15:27] <cncbasher> ok
[00:16:00] <Tom_itx> changed settings.sh to executable and that got rid of that error in the terminal
[00:16:09] <Tom_itx> but it still doesn't run in the batch
[00:17:22] <cncbasher> ok my settings.sh file is not executable
[00:17:39] <cncbasher> and set to owner root
[00:17:48] <cncbasher> and group root
[00:18:16] <cncbasher> must be permissions
[00:18:17] <Tom_itx> live cd doesn't give you root
[00:18:29] <cncbasher> arh !
[00:19:13] <cncbasher> that could well be the problem if your running under live cd on a windows box
[00:19:39] <Tom_itx> this is a live cd install on a ubuntu box
[00:19:58] <Tom_itx> so it's 10.04
[00:20:00] <cncbasher> mine is live cd install
[00:20:04] <mikegg> do you have python installed?
[00:20:06] <cncbasher> on 10.04
[00:20:21] <Tom_itx> mikegg, how do i check?
[00:20:24] <mikegg> I guess that comes with it....
[00:20:34] <mikegg> I don't remember installing it on this machine
[00:20:47] <cncbasher> mikegg: your running ok ?
[00:21:01] <Tom_itx> about all i've installed is the live cd, xilinx and a few other oddball things
[00:21:35] <mikegg> you can check in synaptic, just search for python. It should be there...
[00:21:41] <cncbasher> it could be that xilinx is installed as non root
[00:22:07] <cncbasher> under your login etc
[00:22:20] <cncbasher> and not as an application
[00:23:02] <cncbasher> reinstall using the command line sudo ./setup
[00:23:51] <cncbasher> ok guys i'm off to bed here , let me know how you get on
[00:24:16] <mikegg> thanks for your help!
[00:24:20] <Tom_itx> alright. thanks
[00:24:26] <cncbasher> no problem
[00:24:35] <cncbasher> while your at it grab 10.2
[00:24:52] <Tom_itx> this should work
[00:24:59] <cncbasher> yes it should
[00:25:30] <cncbasher> which is why i think it's installed incorrectly
[00:25:37] <cncbasher> should be as root
[00:25:44] <cncbasher> goodnight all
[00:26:02] <Tom_itx> i'll give it a try
[00:26:06] <cncbasher> ok
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[00:42:00] <mikegg> Tom_itx: what error is it throwing?
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[00:46:09] <andypugh> Night all
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[00:52:53] <Eartaker> who here is good with a Lathe?
[00:53:01] <Eartaker> im havving some issues
[00:53:05] <Eartaker> not cnc
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[00:54:20] <toastyde1th> sup
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[00:55:44] <mikegg> good at what? I've thrown my fair share of parts from the chuck.
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[00:56:04] <toastydeath> Eartaker, you might as well just ask
[00:56:04] <Eartaker> Im having issues with my toog randomly gouging the metal
[00:56:09] <Eartaker> tool
[00:56:14] <toastydeath> how
[00:56:15] <mikegg> backlash?
[00:56:52] <Eartaker> not sure... it just leaves a rough surface with little valleys
[00:57:32] <mikegg> probably not backlash. that was a silly thing to say
[00:57:39] <Eartaker> lol
[00:58:00] <Eartaker> I was thinking a loose gib but everything is tight
[00:58:19] <toastydeath> is this in aluminum
[00:58:20] <mikegg> material?
[00:58:33] <Eartaker> steel
[00:58:40] <funkster> I need some simple cnc'ing done to acrylic or even aluminum - anyone suggest a place i can post a job for someone to do, the large cnc companies are pricey for just 1-2 pieces.
[00:58:42] <Eartaker> cold roll, not sure of the alloy
[00:59:00] <toastydeath> what nose radius
[00:59:16] <toastydeath> guesstimate if necessary
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[00:59:52] <Eartaker> not sure hmm
[00:59:54] <toastydeath> if you're talking about finishing, use a pretty large nose radius, with a little faster speed than you normally would, use some sulphur lubricant applied directly to the tool
[01:00:00] <toastydeath> large as in like, 1/4 radius
[01:00:07] <Eartaker> .02
[01:00:08] <toastydeath> also keep the feed rate up
[01:00:15] <Eartaker> not talking about finishing
[01:00:26] <toastydeath> then why does the finish matter
[01:00:27] <Valen> Eartaker: got photos?
[01:00:41] <Eartaker> just cutting... it will be cutting cmooth and then just gouge into the steel maybe .005" and then stop
[01:00:47] <Eartaker> trying to find a pic...
[01:00:52] <toastydeath> interesting
[01:01:42] <toastydeath> and is it really .005
[01:01:48] <toastydeath> like, you move in .001 and it's still there?
[01:01:53] <toastydeath> or even skim pass and it's still there?
[01:02:13] <toastydeath> because sometimes built up edge will put a cosmetic mark on the part.
[01:02:56] <Eartaker> it happens at different spots along the cut
[01:02:58] <Eartaker> depending
[01:04:07] <Eartaker> 1 sec ill have a pic
[01:04:40] <toastydeath> no i meant
[01:04:42] <toastydeath> if you skim pass
[01:04:44] <toastydeath> does the mark come out
[01:04:53] <toastydeath> or is it actually not cosmetic
[01:07:46] <mikegg> funkster: I've quoted and bought parts off the forums on CNCzone. As always, buyer beware
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[01:08:17] <Eartaker> here we go... lathe is a mess... http://www.eartaker.net/pics/albums/userpics/10001/DSCN1369.JPG
[01:08:59] <Eartaker> see the color change on the steel? it looks cosmetic but it measures a difference of .0011-.003" in apreas where the color changes
[01:09:10] <Eartaker> .001
[01:10:01] <Eartaker> they look like rings around the steel... not the dark gray spots...
[01:11:18] <toastydeath> that's pretty much just how cold rolled machines
[01:11:30] <Eartaker> hmm
[01:11:36] <toastydeath> it looks like every other cold rolled part i've ever made
[01:11:54] <toastydeath> if you want it real smooth you have to use high speed tools, sanding, or grinding
[01:12:01] <Eartaker> could you feel random high spots on yours to?
[01:12:07] <toastydeath> yep
[01:12:10] <Eartaker> well damn
[01:12:23] <toastydeath> a quick hit with sandpaper is how most people deal with it
[01:12:30] <toastydeath> also use a lot bigger tool nose
[01:12:37] <toastydeath> and feed faster
[01:12:44] <toastydeath> give the chip more structure
[01:12:54] <toastydeath> take a deeper cut, too
[01:13:44] <Eartaker> I have it set to feed .005 per rev right now if im reading this right...
[01:14:06] <toastydeath> take like .050 off the diameter
[01:14:12] <toastydeath> .005 per rev is fine
[01:14:44] <toastydeath> hit it real gently with a file or some sandpaper afterwards
[01:15:00] <toastydeath> a lot of those "divots" are actually built up edge
[01:15:05] <toastydeath> that has been deposited on the part
[01:15:09] <toastydeath> you may need to go faster, too
[01:15:13] <Eartaker> hmm
[01:15:17] <toastydeath> built up edge is pretty much a feature of going too slowly
[01:15:28] <toastydeath> whether or not your tool can handle the increased temperature of going faster is a different issue
[01:15:38] <Eartaker> im spinning it at ~620rpm
[01:15:41] <toastydeath> diam?
[01:15:46] <Eartaker> started at 2"
[01:15:54] <Eartaker> 1.26 now
[01:16:04] <toastydeath> you're running ceramic
[01:16:06] <toastydeath> er
[01:16:09] <toastydeath> carbide, yes?
[01:16:13] <Eartaker> carbide
[01:16:18] <toastydeath> then go a lot faster
[01:16:20] <toastydeath> go like 1000 sfm
[01:16:31] <toastydeath> the chips will come out balls hot though, so don't get hit
[01:16:44] <Eartaker> lol
[01:17:07] <toastydeath> unlike hss, there isn't a real "damage" temperature to carbide
[01:17:13] <toastydeath> the wear rate just goes up
[01:17:25] <Eartaker> ahh
[01:17:26] <toastydeath> few metallurgical changes happen
[01:17:58] <toastydeath> but i would mess with those other factors first
[01:18:04] <Eartaker> what is considered a stress proof steel?
[01:18:15] <toastydeath> ...stress proof?
[01:18:27] <toastydeath> what kind of stress
[01:18:31] <Eartaker> I have a set of plans for a small engine and it says "use stress proof steel"
[01:18:40] <toastydeath> I have no idea what the hell they're talking about
[01:18:46] <Eartaker> same here
[01:18:50] <toastydeath> they might mean something that doesn't have any casting or working stresses
[01:18:54] <toastydeath> something annealed
[01:19:12] <Eartaker> I was going to go with 12L14 but thought it would be to soft for a crankshaft
[01:19:21] <Eartaker> ahh
[01:20:38] <Eartaker> how long have you been machining?
[01:20:56] <toastydeath> I machined for three and a half years or so
[01:21:03] <toastydeath> i guess a little more, maybe four in total
[01:21:16] <toastydeath> four and a half?
[01:21:18] <toastydeath> yeah
[01:22:22] <toastydeath> i don't have any hobby experience, though
[01:22:27] <toastydeath> it's all production machining
[01:23:24] <Eartaker> ahh
[01:23:51] <Eartaker> just a hobby for me.. but 2.5 years
[01:27:17] <Danimal_garage> 14 years for me next month!
[01:27:25] <Danimal_garage> almost half my life
[01:27:49] <Danimal_garage> started working in a shop at 16
[01:28:47] <Danimal_garage> probably knew more 5 years in than i do now, given how much i've forgot lol
[01:29:42] <Eartaker> lol
[01:32:10] <Tom_itx> is your mind the first thing to go?
[01:33:33] <Danimal_garage> when alcohol is involved, yes
[01:34:09] <Eartaker> im working on making this...http://www.eartaker.net/pics/displayimage.php?album=7&pid=92#top_display_media
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[02:19:29] <Tom_itx> ok i think it's building the whole darn set now
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[09:57:14] <automata> If two axes have different maximum speeds, does the trajectory planner take that into account when calculating the current speed? I am actually sure it does (I mean that a very basic part of a trajectory planner)
[09:58:01] <automata> But I do not understand what speed will be used when executing a G0 X10 A100 move
[09:58:34] <automata> Will both the axes travel at their maximum speed??
[09:59:34] <automata> And where do I specify the maximum / default speed per axis... I am guessing in the [AXIS_N] section of the INI file....
[09:59:34] bootnecklad` is now known as bootnecklad
[10:01:33] <automata> On a G0 move, I am seeing that some sort of linear interpolation is used... Both axes involved in the interpolated move start and finish their movement together...
[10:01:37] <psha[work]> automata: moves are calculated with respect to maxspeeds
[10:01:58] <automata> My understanding of G0 is that all axes will be moved with their max velocity..
[10:02:14] <elmo40> that is correct
[10:02:15] <psha[work]> if you have X maxspeed 1 and y 10 and issue g0 x10 y10 you'll get movement at x 1/s and 1/s
[10:03:04] <automata> That is not what is happening..
[10:03:29] <elmo40> G0 should not limit to the slowest axis. It should do max speed of each axis.
[10:03:58] <psha[work]> but if you have xyz _and_ rotational moves they are calculated independently
[10:04:36] <automata> elmo40: That is what I am seeing... I tried G0 x1000 y 10 and they finish simultaneously
[10:05:59] <elmo40> then that is what EMC does... it makes sure your programmed point is completed in a direct linear fashion. That is not how my machines at work operate.
[10:06:18] <elmo40> G0 at work will 'get there' at max speed of each axis.
[10:06:44] <automata> psha: what you are saying is that they SHOULD finish simultaneously!!!
[10:06:50] <elmo40> even if x and y have to travel the same distance my x will get there faster since that axis has a higher max speed
[10:07:14] <automata> That is not how I have made my CNC controllers in the past... That is not even how I made my robot controllers!!!
[10:08:13] <automata> In this case there is no difference between G0 and G1 except with G1 you need a feed speed set!!!
[10:09:00] <elmo40> G1 shouild be the only one to take F into consideration. G0 should not. There is no need for G0 to limit all axis to the slowest one.
[10:11:28] <automata> I am referring to the EIA 274 D standard and it says: G0: Point to point positioning at rapid or other traverse rate*
[10:12:13] <automata> the footnote (*) says: the choice of a particular case must be designated in the Format Classification sheet.
[10:12:31] <automata> Format classification sheet is given in appendix A
[10:13:48] <automata> and it has only information about how to list the specifications of the machine...
[10:14:38] <automata> So, EMC format classification might say the G0 traverses each axis using max time required for all axes
[10:14:58] <jthornton> it's quite clear in the manual
[10:17:14] <automata> jthornton: I am looking at the EMC User Manual V2.4 section 15.3 on page 90. And it does not explain this nuance in any detail
[10:18:22] <jthornton> this? "This will produce coordinated linear motion to the destination point at the current traverse rate (or slower if the machine will not go that fast)."
[10:19:08] <automata> I guess "Coordinated" is the word I glanced over on first read... my bad...
[10:19:20] <jthornton> yep
[10:19:34] <automata> Is there a way to not make that happen?
[10:20:05] <automata> I actually cannot come up with use cases of non-coordinated motion though...
[10:20:33] <automata> But that is how I have done things in the past with controllers I have used and built..
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[10:25:49] <jthornton> a little history might be interesting http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/6/5/lang,english/
[10:34:27] <automata> At the time EMC was being developed I was actively using Servo-to-go cards to control multiple coordinated robots running a mix of linux and QNX !!! I do remember musing how the servo-to-go cards (costing $888 back then) could be made cheaper!!!
[10:35:14] <automata> as they were on an ISA bus with a bunch of (8) quadrature decoders and 8 D-A's (12 bit I think)...
[10:35:27] <automata> or was it 14 or 16 bit D-A;s...
[10:36:10] <automata> the STG card still costs $888!!!!
[10:36:25] <automata> www.servotogo.com and they are still selling the ISA Cards!!!
[10:36:29] <jthornton> QNX?
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[10:37:01] <automata> well they were 13 bit resolution...
[10:37:47] <automata> QNX is a micro kernel architecture RTOS... (posix compliant)... recently bought over by RIM and the new playbook is based on QNX...
[10:39:32] <automata> amazing little realtime OS... and back in 1995 - 2000 was arguably the best RTOS that could run on PC's and was frer for educational institutions...
[10:40:02] <automata> free not frer
[10:46:26] <automata> Where do I set the rapid traverse velocity?? for G0? I am guessing in the AXIS_N section of the INI...
[10:47:32] <jthornton> why guess, read the configuration section of the Integrators Manual and be sure
[10:48:34] <automata> That is where I am at right now... In the TRAJ section on page 15: DEFAULT_VELOCITY = 0.0167 The initial rate for jogs of linear axes, in machine units per second.
[10:48:35] <automata> The value shown equals one unit per minute.
[10:49:10] <automata> What is the "initial" rate for jogs??
[10:49:33] <jthornton> when you first start Axis that will be the jog rate
[10:49:35] <psha[work]> automata: depends on UI
[10:50:12] <automata> Does Axis UI have it's own max setting?
[10:50:54] <automata> jthornton: is there an DEFAULT_ANGULAR_VELOCITY Setting?
[10:51:03] <automata> in the TRAJ section?
[10:52:07] <jthornton> I don't see one...
[10:52:33] <automata> The file psha directed me to yesterday had a DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY and a DEFAULT_ANGULAR_VELOCITY
[10:52:43] <jthornton> 2.5?
[10:52:43] <automata> in the TRAJ Section..
[10:53:05] <automata> grepping the 2.6 source for these strings...
[10:54:08] <jthornton> yea, I can't find anything in the 2.5 manuals any more they are so confusing
[10:54:10] <automata> automata@dot-machine:~/emc2-dev/src$ grep -r DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY *
[10:54:11] <automata> emc/usr_intf/pncconf/pncconf.py: print >>file, "DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY = %f"% self.default_linear_velocity
[10:54:11] <automata> emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: inifile.find("DISPLAY", "DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY")
[10:54:11] <automata> emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py: or inifile.find("TRAJ", "DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY")
[10:55:16] <automata> so pncconf and axis are using DEFAULT_LINEAR_VELOCITY
[10:58:21] <automata> How do I build the docs on emc2.6
[10:59:20] <automata> got the docs from the website...
[11:02:26] <jthornton> the instructions are on the wiki
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[11:05:09] <jthornton> I wish there was only one PDF for 2.5 it would be much less confusing and maybe the links could work again
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[11:09:45] <Tom_itx> is there any documentation to interpret the firmware.txt settings for a particular board?
[11:11:35] <Tom_itx> jthornton, if pigs could fly
[11:11:43] <jthornton> yea
[11:11:54] <Tom_itx> i at least got some bit files built
[11:12:11] <jthornton> I'd love to answer your question Tom_itx if I knew what the question was :/
[11:12:30] <Tom_itx> it has to do with how the bit files will be built for any given board set
[11:12:38] <jthornton> for hostmot2?
[11:12:43] <Tom_itx> yeppers
[11:12:58] <RyanS> What sort of machines are you guys running? taigs, sherlines, X3s, something more expensive?
[11:13:15] <jthornton> ah, other than the man pages and the wiki I don't know of any
[11:13:51] <jthornton> Hardinge CHNC, Self Designed Plasma on EMC2 rest are on older controls
[11:13:56] <Tom_itx> not sure that type of info would be there
[11:14:16] <pcw_home> Do you mean what specific configuration is built?
[11:14:24] <Tom_itx> yes
[11:14:33] <Tom_itx> i'm not needing any, just learning at the moment
[11:14:52] <pcw_home> depends on the PD and MD
[11:15:00] <archivist> RyanS, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
[11:15:00] <Tom_itx> well for example the 7i43 and the 7i47 combo
[11:15:27] <RyanS> oh, nobody using lathes & mills? here
[11:15:32] <archivist> sure
[11:15:49] <archivist> 5 axis cnc and lathe on emc2
[11:15:58] <jthornton> sure, I assume you don't know what a CHNC is
[11:16:43] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge-gallery.xhtml
[11:17:17] <RyanS> So I haven't come to the right place to ask about desktop machines ? :)
[11:17:34] <Tom_itx> just ask
[11:17:37] <pcw_home> so you need a pin descriptor and matching module descriptor (pin descriptor says whats connected to each pin) for a 48 I/O devices
[11:17:55] <RyanS> I was thinking of getting something a little more 'compact' to say the least
[11:18:10] <archivist> RyanS, like http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_09_10_Starturn_cnc_lathe/ ?
[11:18:12] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, the module descriptor being the vhd file?
[11:18:55] <archivist> RyanS, some make their own machines too
[11:18:55] <pcw_home> yes theres a file containing a PD and MD for each configuration
[11:19:05] <Tom_itx> i noticed that
[11:20:09] <jthornton> RyanS: like this? http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc
[11:20:12] <RyanS> would I get more value from an imported machine and then getting a CNC conversion kit?
[11:20:13] <Tom_itx> does xilinx still support parport dongles?
[11:20:33] <Tom_itx> say from 9.2 fwd..
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[11:20:43] <Tom_itx> or have they gone all USB
[11:21:09] <pcw_home> I doubt it (do they even have dongles after ISE?)
[11:21:26] <Tom_itx> well you need a cable of some sort
[11:21:35] <Tom_itx> jtag
[11:21:47] <RyanS> jt pretty much. I want something I can have inside an enclosure and use in a spare room in the house
[11:22:01] <pcw_home> Oh JTAG, sure the parallel JTAG still works
[11:23:38] <archivist> RyanS, some of use get an old educational small cnc lathe and then retrofit emc to it, often they include an enclosure, I removed my door as it gets in my way
[11:24:50] <pcw_home> We rarely use JTAG, except for CPLD programming and attached flash programming (SP6)
[11:27:52] <RyanS> .. I've seen people use them in a study, if its enclosed, it can easily be dusted out afterwards.. however how does one manage coolant unless you have plumbing in that room? you can't machine everything dry
[11:28:24] <JT-Shop> sure you can
[11:29:21] <RyanS> brass and aluminium definitely.. but steel?
[11:29:31] <JT-Shop> my BP Series 1 does not have coolant
[11:29:43] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, yeah i figuerd but just wondered for other stuff. i have an old digilab board i may pull out to play with
[11:29:44] <JT-Shop> steel is better dry than aluminum
[11:29:58] <Tom_itx> later..
[11:30:01] <RyanS> ah ok
[11:30:17] <JT-Shop> not much chance of milling steel on a desktop mill
[11:30:36] <pcw_home> yeah at least up to 13.2 supports parallel
[11:31:58] <RyanS> Do you think that sherline is being a little ambitious in suggesting that stainless steel is " not that difficult", we had to drill through 6mm stainless steel, it is very tough indeed, gobbles up cobalt bits reasonably quickly
[11:32:26] <pcw_home> bbl back to sleep
[11:34:01] <RyanS> I am under the impression that in desktop mills you can pretty much forget anything harder than brass & aluminium despite what sherline say
[11:35:30] <RyanS> eg: http://www.sherline.com/testcuts.htm Titanium?!
[11:36:21] <cncbasher> Tom_itx> u managed to get up and running ok ?
[11:36:33] <jthornton> the problem with stainless is most folks don't know the correct RPM for the drill size and very quickly have a hardened spot where they are drilling and melts the tip of the drill
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[11:38:04] <RyanS> yeh found that out the hard way, you have to reduce the speed right and cut hard, but the machine needs to be rigid right?
[11:38:13] <jthornton> yea
[11:39:26] <RyanS> You would know a fair bit of torque too i guess
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[11:42:11] <RyanS> *need
[11:43:19] <jthornton> yea, you need to know the hp of your spindle as the drills get bigger
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[11:49:36] <RyanS> Here's something a little strange, sherline was originally designed in Australia, now manufactured in the US. their 4100 lathe = $600 in the US. And one of their Australian dealers = $1600 ..... hmmm you can get 60kg halfway across the world for $350
[11:50:10] <jthornton> must be import duties and profit in there somewhere
[11:51:13] <RyanS> A lot :)
[11:51:18] * jthornton laughs at sherline using 12L14 for sample cuts
[11:52:14] <RyanS> Is that Inconel? I laughed at that one...
[11:53:07] <jthornton> 12L14 is the easiest steel to machine it has some lead added to make it free machining
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[11:53:44] <RyanS> ah ok
[11:54:26] <RyanS> It's not like you really need to machine steel and titanium for model engineering/clock making
[11:55:20] <jthornton> archivist can tell you about clock making
[11:55:58] <psha[work]> jthornton: i bet cradek too :)
[11:56:25] <RyanS> ok. I've read that titanium is pretty much one of the most difficult alloys to machine
[11:56:54] <jthornton> Danimal_garage can tell you about titanium, he machines it every day
[12:00:43] <RyanS> They left out Hastalloy and Stellite from those cut videos, because you never know when you might need to build a miniature nuclear reactor
[12:03:09] <psha[work]> RyanS: if fuel prices goes up i bet kitchen-local reactors will become very popular
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[12:04:11] <RyanS> hehe, I want a solar sterling engine
[12:04:57] <moldovean> psha[work], has a link for such things ( kitchen-local reactors ) ? ;) , and greetings
[12:06:15] <psha[work]> moldovean: was posted some days ago :)
[12:06:23] <RyanS> It might be difficult to find a supplier of reactor grade uranium selling to hobbyists :)
[12:06:49] <psha[work]> http://psha.org.ru/irc/%23emc/2011-08-29.html#15:41:12
[12:07:11] <moldovean> psha[work], i'll see the archive then, thx
[12:07:37] <psha[work]> ah, that was yesterday :)
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[12:09:02] <RyanS> lol, the CIA, just make sure you dont sell to Iran, because Mossad will definitely make you disappear
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[12:10:58] <automata> what is a good IRC client that people use on this channel?
[12:11:13] <RyanS> I believe their favourite method is injecting anaesthetic and kidnapping
[12:12:32] <jthornton> don't know what you consider "good" but I use Chatzilla
[12:12:57] <archivist> I use xchat
[12:13:15] <awallin_> quassel ?
[12:13:29] <Tom_itx> cncbasher, yes it was more of a 'rights' issue than anything
[12:13:38] <RyanS> There was a good story about titanium and the SR 71 Blackbird... the biggest supplier of titanium at that time was the USSR.. of course the US couldn't be seen to buy titanium from the Soviets, so the CIA set up a false company and imported it on the sly
[12:14:27] <RyanS> Although in reality it was probably a deal between the two governments whilst both officially denying it
[12:16:51] <Tom_itx> they had it but did they know what to do with it?
[12:17:20] <RyanS> Jet engine parts?
[12:17:31] <Tom_itx> ru
[12:17:39] <psha[work]> RyanS: and in other direction goes some kinds of mircoscopes and CNC machining equipment :)
[12:18:01] <psha[work]> same way - via fake companies
[12:18:12] <psha[work]> automata: irssi! :)
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[12:19:34] <psha[work]> Tom_itx: titan was widely used in weapon production inside country but why not to sell it to US if they pay high price? :)
[12:19:37] <RyanS> A little bit like the Korean War, an opportunity to go to war with one another whilst pretending to not be at war with one another.
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[12:22:41] <RyanS> Getting back to CNC, is a fourth axis on a mill any sort of replacement for a lathe? or fairly limited in what it can do?
[12:23:22] <Tom_itx> i generally get done what i need to do with the tools at hand
[12:23:35] <awallin_> a hobby-priced 4th axis isn't a replacement for a lathe. there are pro machines that are effectively mill/lathes...
[12:23:37] <Tom_itx> if i had a lathe i'd be more likely to use it for 'lathe' parts
[12:24:05] <Tom_itx> if i had to choose one over the other, i'd get both
[12:25:23] <RyanS> hmm, ok but can you actually turn parts effectively on the fourth axis, or it's not really designed for that?
[12:25:53] <Tom_itx> if you're building cams or gear screws etc a rotary axis could be handy
[12:26:41] <Tom_itx> it would be an ineffective use of equipment
[12:27:39] <Tom_itx> ok, my time has expired and i'm out of quarters.
[12:27:41] <Tom_itx> later
[12:28:08] <RyanS> I suppose the question I should ask is I want to make small gadgets, sculptures, model engines, it is doubtful I can do without a lathe?
[12:28:35] <jthornton> for every hour I spend machining parts 5 minutes is on the lathe
[12:29:54] <jthornton> with a boring bar I would think you could build a model engine on a mill
[12:32:25] <archivist> you can mill rather than turn round parts on a 4th axis
[12:33:44] <archivist> get 5th axis mount on the 4th and then almost any shape is possible
[12:34:14] <jthornton> archivist does some neat stuff on his setup
[12:34:59] <RyanS> hmmm, this is my line of thinking, I have a disability so I can't use any machine tools myself.. if I were to get a desktop CNC mill and possibly a lathe (budget permitting), given that I would be programming, designing etc .. how much work is in for someone to change tools and metal stock for me... I love designing things in 3D CAD, just never been able to create the objects
[12:36:30] <RyanS> My budget by the way is probably $5,000 max
[12:36:48] <RyanS> I'm just trying to evaluate whether I'd be wasting my money
[12:38:46] <jthornton> I spend more time setting up a job than actually machining it... best answer I can come up with
[12:41:08] <RyanS> ... I could actually imagine that clamping etc, etc takes time
[12:41:25] <archivist> and a bit of skill
[12:41:42] <archivist> or experience
[12:43:03] <RyanS> Could you say that CNC reduces the amount of physical skill required? I'm not talking about researching and reading up, but literally manual dexterity
[12:43:05] <jthornton> just try and think how you might hold a complex part to machine it out and you might get an idea
[12:43:34] <jthornton> not when it comes to the setup
[12:44:00] <archivist> how the strength of the part changes during machining too
[12:44:17] <jthornton> maybe if you had a probe and a tool setter probe...
[12:44:35] <RyanS> I guess more exotic devices like vaccum tables somewhat out of reach for the hobbyist?
[12:44:48] <jthornton> I too am out of nickels
[12:45:16] <jthornton> not really, but are only good for sheet materials
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[12:46:06] <RyanS> ok, something to think about, night
[12:46:10] <Loetmichel> RyanS: why should it?
[12:46:25] <RyanS> price?
[12:46:31] <RyanS> idk
[12:46:36] <Loetmichel> diy
[12:46:47] <jthornton> just had a thought you need a rerap or how ever they spell it
[12:46:57] <Loetmichel> aehm, let it be done by your helper
[12:47:21] <Loetmichel> RyanS: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4035
[12:47:26] <jthornton> a vacuum generator is not expensive, the compressed air to run it might be
[12:47:26] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4038
[12:47:37] <Loetmichel> a vacuum table isnd such a complicated thing
[12:47:56] <Loetmichel> made that one in about 3 hours
[12:48:00] <jthornton> very nice Loetmichel
[12:48:15] <jthornton> now I'm really off to the shower
[12:48:18] <RyanS> ok, going to head to bed, night, thanks for the info
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[12:50:02] <Loetmichel> jthornton: RepRap ... REPlicating RAPid prototyper
[12:52:11] <Loetmichel> RyanS: what is your disability?
[12:56:38] <TekniQue> is there an economical way to make a decent 3d printer?
[12:56:50] <TekniQue> something that prints objects that don't look like crap
[12:57:06] <TekniQue> like the reprap/makerbot extruded thermoplastic does
[12:57:23] <TekniQue> always looks nothing like the model you put in
[12:58:14] <Loetmichel> TekniQue: the problem isnt the extruded plastics
[12:58:26] <Loetmichel> the problem is the diameter of the nozzle
[12:58:59] <Loetmichel> if you use a extruder with a nozzle in the 100s of a millimeter it WILL be looking better....
[12:59:13] <Loetmichel> ... and take literally FOREVER to print something
[13:00:04] <Loetmichel> 'cause the nozzle diameter goes into the printing time by ^3
[13:02:04] <jdhNC> how about getting a few billion spiders, hook them up to an extruder and make items out of silk.
[13:03:18] <Loetmichel> if someone gets me a "laserpointer" with about 100Watts and a dot of less then 0,05mm, i will try to make a fused deposit printer with steel or aluminium powder
[13:03:39] <Loetmichel> but without a decent heat source there is no way to get that working
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[13:05:02] <TekniQue> sounds like a job for a chinese CO2 laser tube
[13:05:11] <Loetmichel> laserpointersize
[13:05:27] <TekniQue> could one maybe convert a laser engraver to a printer for that purpose?
[13:05:30] <TekniQue> why laser pointer size?
[13:05:34] <cpresser> unfortunately CO2 tubes are not that small
[13:05:39] <Loetmichel> i know
[13:05:41] <cpresser> and pointsize is surely an issue
[13:05:50] <TekniQue> pointsize is about focus
[13:06:08] <TekniQue> and I fail to see where the size of the tube enters into the picture
[13:06:33] <TekniQue> the typical laser cutter has the tube stationary and directs the laser using mirrors
[13:06:36] <Loetmichel> laserpointersize because it should move with the printhead. the mirrors on the head and the tube behind is to bulky ;-)
[13:06:57] <TekniQue> the printhead could just be a mirror
[13:07:15] <TekniQue> and a focusing lens
[13:07:20] <Loetmichel> i know
[13:07:39] <Loetmichel> a friend build a laser cutter with an 80W tube lately
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[13:10:34] <Loetmichel> http://bambuser.com/channel/lilalinux/broadcast/641560
[13:10:48] <cpresser> you have to use mirrors for CO2 since fibre optic wont work. and a mirror setup is not that easy :)
[13:11:02] <Loetmichel> it is relatively easy
[13:11:26] <Loetmichel> but like in the video i am a LITTLE concerned about my eyesight ;-)
[13:11:47] <lilalinux> and your lungs
[13:12:00] <lilalinux> probably not yours
[13:12:05] <Loetmichel> ach, hi, you here also? ;-)
[13:12:06] <lilalinux> but in general :-)
[13:12:22] <lilalinux> if you highlight me :-)
[13:12:44] <Loetmichel> so i have to highlite the builder of the laser also?
[13:12:52] <psha[work]> mirrors? trivial
[13:12:53] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec, are you there? ;-)
[13:12:54] <psha[work]> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/29/Disco_ball4.jpg
[13:13:02] <psha[work]> buy something like this and hook motor
[13:14:16] <Loetmichel> http://bambuser.com/channel/lilalinux/broadcast/627911 <- i like the "slightly open" construcktion on markus' lasercutter ;-)
[13:14:35] <Loetmichel> ... and the missing laser googles ;-)
[13:15:20] <Spida> immer die ueblichen verdaechtigen
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[13:16:21] <Loetmichel> Spida: wie meinen?
[13:17:01] <Spida> ooch, diverse quadcopterpiloten hier.
[13:17:07] <Loetmichel> hihi
[13:17:20] <Spida> und -devs
[13:17:59] <psha[work]> "quadcopterpiloten" wow, i understand him! :)
[13:18:27] <Loetmichel> maybe you should do the others the convenience to write in english?
[13:19:10] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: An acrylic cover on the laser will be enough to protect your eyes.
[13:19:39] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: maybe, but i still resented to be in the same room whren the cutter was working
[13:19:57] <Jymmm> why?
[13:20:07] <Loetmichel> ... tried to stand behind some cardboard and nothing cromeplated in my sight ;-)
[13:20:16] <Loetmichel> chome
[13:20:18] <Loetmichel> grrr
[13:20:20] <Loetmichel> chrome
[13:20:41] <TekniQue> yeah laser cutters need lots of ventilation
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[13:21:25] <cpresser> at least in germany, you are required to wear protective eyewear when opearting a laser class 2 or higher
[13:22:02] <Jymmm> Again, make an acrylic cover for the laser so that even reflected IR radiation doesn't hit your eyes would be good enough. CO2 lasers engravers will NOT penetrate the acrylic for eye exposure
[13:22:24] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: like i saw a sign in some laser-laboratory: "Protect your OTHER eye!"
[13:23:05] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: you did see the setup in the videos?
[13:23:06] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: And wth exhaust are you using there?
[13:23:19] <TekniQue> a sign in the laser chromatograph lab here says "Danger, big scary lasers"
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[13:23:23] <Loetmichel> its not my machine, its MarkusBecs
[13:23:31] <Jymmm> ah
[13:23:47] <Loetmichel> i just happened to be there as he had tested it
[13:24:03] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: gotcha
[13:24:22] <Loetmichel> i only have buildt some CNC mills so far
[13:24:23] <Jymmm> lotwhat was that exhausst hose that was being used?
[13:24:40] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: what was that exhausst hose that was being used?
[13:24:43] <Loetmichel> a exhaust hose from a clothes dryer
[13:24:54] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: and the fan?
[13:25:00] <Loetmichel> with a "in-tube" fan shoved in
[13:25:02] <MarkusBec> Loetmichel, ?
[13:25:29] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: we're talking about your laser cutter.
[13:25:45] <MarkusBec> ah!
[13:25:46] <Jymmm> s/about/smack about/
[13:26:15] <Jymmm> MarkusBec: GET A REAL EXHAUST!
[13:26:42] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: if i remember correctly that was a fan for use inside a exhaust tube for bathrooms/toulets without a window
[13:27:00] <MarkusBec> Jymmm, its for bussys
[13:27:02] <MarkusBec> pussys
[13:27:06] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Yeah, I can see it now
[13:27:34] <Jymmm> MarkusBec: Yeah? You think so huh... wait till you have to pay $600 to replace the optics
[13:27:53] <MarkusBec> 1 mirror 15$
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[13:27:59] <MarkusBec> 1 lens 45$
[13:28:03] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: i think he hasnt payed that much for the entire laser
[13:28:08] <Jymmm> MarkusBec: I can see the vaorized acrylic residue that has redeposited on the table base
[13:28:18] <MarkusBec> 1200$ for all with shipping
[13:28:31] <Loetmichel> close... ;-)
[13:29:44] <MarkusBec> the optic is not the problem
[13:29:55] <MarkusBec> the rest of the room is the problem :O
[13:30:07] <Loetmichel> ... including the lungs of the users ;-)=
[13:30:19] <MarkusBec> Loetmichel, was heisten sperrluft auf englisch?
[13:30:43] <Loetmichel> "blocking air"?
[13:30:56] <MarkusBec> koennte sein :)
[13:31:35] <MarkusBec> sealing air ?
[13:31:48] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: what MarkusBec intended to say: the laser nozzle with the lens has compresed air running down it, , causing the fumes to dissipate
[13:31:58] <MarkusBec> the optic is protectet by sealing air
[13:32:46] <Jymmm> Doesn't matter, that's called air assist and is not intended to protect optics, it's meant to "push through" molten material
[13:32:59] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: hast du eigentlich irgendwo fotos vom laser?
[13:33:12] <MarkusBec> Loetmichel, hmmm
[13:33:27] <MarkusBec> http://markusbec.deswahnsinns.de/main.php/v/album_1260292830/
[13:33:42] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: as a side effect it holds the lens clear of any fumes ;-)
[13:35:18] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: hmm, no finished picture...
[13:36:32] <MarkusBec> hmmmmmm
[13:37:06] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: The thing is, you only use air assist for certain applications, for others you don't
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[13:38:18] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: MarkusBec unsed it always ;-)
[13:38:20] <Loetmichel> used
[13:39:08] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Maybe, but there are acause when you DONT want to use it, say when cutting thin paper or certain films.
[13:39:33] <MarkusBec> you need it with paper
[13:39:43] <MarkusBec> but it starts to burn without :)
[13:40:04] <Jymmm> then you have settngs too high
[13:40:12] <Jymmm> to speeds need adjusting
[13:40:16] <Jymmm> s/to/or/
[13:40:44] <Jymmm> MarkusBec: what dPI are you using on paper?
[13:40:47] <Jymmm> DPI
[13:41:07] <MarkusBec> dpi? dots per inch?
[13:41:24] <Jymmm> Yes, or density
[13:41:34] <Jymmm> same difference.
[13:41:42] <Jymmm> or resolution
[13:41:47] <Jymmm> all the same thing
[13:42:15] <MarkusBec> cutting speed is 5000mm/min and laser power ist 20W
[13:42:57] <Jymmm> Thats the capabilities of the laser. I was asking what settings are you using for paper specifically
[13:43:29] <MarkusBec> max power of the laser is 80W :)
[13:43:39] <MarkusBec> and 15000mm/min
[13:43:57] <Jymmm> you dont have a DPI setting?
[13:44:03] <MarkusBec> no
[13:44:11] <MarkusBec> I use emc
[13:44:25] <MarkusBec> with a SVG/dfx to Gcode converter
[13:44:31] <MarkusBec> dxf
[13:45:31] <skunkworks> Jymmm: I forget - what nas os do you like?\
[13:45:43] <Jymmm> 2.5" x 4.5" http://i51.tinypic.com/2jttp2.jpg
[13:46:08] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I've been using FreeNAS v7 (0.7.2)
[13:46:15] <skunkworks> oh - ok
[13:46:27] <skunkworks> I was playing with some version of 8
[13:46:32] <Jymmm> skunkworks: FN8 is NOT an upgrade to FN7, they are forked projects
[13:46:41] <skunkworks> ah
[13:46:49] <automata> I am running EMC without a GUI (through emcrsh).
[13:47:12] <automata> Does anyone know what will be the directory that EMC will open files from?
[13:47:18] <Jymmm> skunkworks: The FN8 devs (IX systems) are local to me too.
[13:47:32] <Jymmm> skunkworks: But it's still "beta" imo
[13:48:35] <Jymmm> 3"x3" http://i55.tinypic.com/14a9deb.jpg
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[13:49:35] <skunkworks> Jymmm: thanks
[13:49:54] <Jymmm> skunkworks: np. You building a NAS box?
[13:50:16] <skunkworks> Jymmm: you wouldn't know of a script to automagically add users and groups?
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[13:50:35] <Jymmm> skunkworks: to which version?
[13:50:48] <skunkworks> which ever version you have a script for ;)
[13:51:18] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Again, BDI vs emc2, not the same thing
[13:51:22] <skunkworks> does 7 do bonding and raid?
[13:51:50] <Jymmm> bonding I'm not sure, raid, yes and ZFS
[13:52:16] <skunkworks> I will have to research it.
[13:52:34] <Jymmm> If you use ZFS, best to use ECC ram and UPS.
[13:52:57] <Jymmm> If you do that, then you'll have protection against bit rot
[13:54:34] <Jymmm> Though, ZFS is a ram whore. rule of thumb is about 1GB ram for every raw TB of storage.
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[13:55:01] <Jymmm> It all depends on how much you value your data.
[13:55:14] <psha[work]> Jymmm: is not it true for any FS?
[13:55:18] <psha[work]> i mean ecc + ups?
[13:55:48] <skunkworks> I read about the zfs being a memory hog.
[13:56:07] <Jymmm> psha[work]: Well, ZFS wants/needs direct access to the hardware, so no RAID cards, so no battery backup for the cache.
[13:56:30] <Jymmm> journal, etc
[13:57:20] <Jymmm> skunkworks: Also best if you use an intel based nic, and not marvel or realtek nic
[13:58:12] <psha[work]> Jymmm: btw despite all my defiance to realtek nics gigabit ones are not so bad
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[13:58:30] <Jymmm> psha[work]: They are in BSD land.
[13:58:47] <Jymmm> which is what FreeNAS is based upon.
[13:59:10] <psha[work]> realtek nics are not well supported under fbsd?
[13:59:19] <Jymmm> there are performance issues with realtek
[13:59:32] <psha[work]> heh, nothing changed... :)
[13:59:36] <Jymmm> nope
[13:59:42] <psha[work]> i've switched to intel nics long time ago for same reason
[13:59:48] <skunkworks> I have a dell power edge that I threw 8 on and have been goofing around with it. seems kinda neat. expecally for easy home setup.
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[13:59:57] <psha[work]> but now i've rtl gigabit chip on my home router and it behaves fine
[14:00:02] <psha[work]> (under linux)
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[14:05:44] <Jymmm> psha[work]: I just have a 24port switch instead =)
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[14:10:53] <psha[work]> Jymmm: instead? hm, nice point
[14:11:18] <psha[work]> throw away you nic, drill 4 large holes in the computer case and put 24 port switch with 4 large screws
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[14:22:09] <Jymmm> psha[work]: FC FTW
[14:23:53] <skunkworks> wow - I would need 7gb+ of memory
[14:24:14] <psha[work]> Jymmm: WTF CF?
[14:24:27] <Jymmm> psha[work]: FC == Fiber Channel
[14:24:35] <Jymmm> 10GigE
[14:24:58] <psha[work]> heh, have not be ready to encounter this acronim here :)
[14:25:15] <psha[work]> s/acronim/abbrev/
[14:25:53] <Jymmm> psha[work]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibre_Channel
[14:26:54] <Jymmm> skunkworks: That aint nuttin, some have 256GB ram =)
[14:29:14] <psha[work]> Jymmm: i know what's fc, using it at work for disk shelf
[14:36:58] <Jymmm> psha[work]: "work" huh, is THAT what they're calling pr0n these days ;)
[14:37:53] <psha[work]> Jymmm: heh, theese bastards even don't know how they _should_ use that disk shelf and fill it with some dumb databases with useless financial data :(
[14:38:46] <Jymmm> psha[work]: lol
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[15:38:32] <frysteev> morning all
[15:43:26] <micges_garage> hi
[16:02:52] -!- Paragon-ws [Paragon-ws!~chatzilla@2001:5c0:1400:a::f3d] has joined #emc
[16:04:34] <Paragon-ws> Hello All, A little off topic but thought I would ask... Does anyone know of a good method to get <2 nanosecond edges on square waves?
[16:05:36] <micges_garage> nano?
[16:06:14] <Paragon-ws> Indeed .... very sharp edges.
[16:06:44] <archivist> Paragon-ws, good drivers
[16:07:40] <archivist> Paragon-ws, I do have a pulse generator inside that spec
[16:10:29] <Paragon-ws> I am looking at making a circuit for time of flight measurement with sent pulse and received pulse shift of around between 2ns to around 500ns.
[16:11:16] <Paragon-ws> Did that make sense ;-)
[16:11:26] <archivist> tdr
[16:11:33] <pcw_home> ACT logic is in that range
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[16:12:14] <Paragon-ws> ACT logic... Ill look into that.
[16:12:20] <Paragon-ws> archivist: tdr ?
[16:12:47] <archivist> time domain reflectometer
[16:13:11] <pcw_home> For faster, normally ECL/CML/LVDS is used
[16:13:18] <Paragon-ws> archivist: Oh ok cheers for the pointer.
[16:13:22] <archivist> cable length to fault measurement technique
[16:13:37] <pcw_home> In olden days they used tunnel diodes
[16:14:02] <archivist> I even have an optical fibre tdr set
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[16:14:55] <pcw_home> Avalanche transistors...
[16:14:57] <archivist> my fast pulse generator date to the age when tunnel diodes were used
[16:15:26] <Paragon-ws> I was looking at transistors in the Ghz transition range and using stop start method to pump a capacitor and then measure the voltage stored in the cap. But I need really sharp leading edges.
[16:15:51] <pcw_home> I think Textronics just used selected 2n2222s for avalanche transistors
[16:16:31] <Paragon-ws> archivist: I was reading a nasa paper which shows the use of tunnel diodes and low voltage as opposed to the high voltage alternative.
[16:16:37] <pcw_home> Look at step recovery diodes as well
[16:16:52] <archivist> tunnel diodes are unobtanium these days
[16:16:53] <Spida> Paragon-ws: what distance do you want to measure with which precision? I guess you are talking about light, not sound *g*
[16:17:18] <archivist> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schottky_diode as they are fast
[16:18:55] <archivist> there is another method which is done with a read relay in a coaxial transmission line, but has a short lifetime
[16:18:58] <archivist> reed
[16:19:04] <Paragon-ws> OK radio and from say 1mtr to 100mtr precission around 1mtr - 3 mtr ... Transmission medium needs to be via radio. Does this sound plausable?
[16:19:35] <pcw_home> also if you are sampling look at harmonic mixers there are cheap modules that contain a step
[16:19:36] <archivist> that is tdr
[16:19:37] <pcw_home> recovery diode for fast sample pulse generation and a diode sampling bridge
[16:20:32] <Paragon-ws> Wow I love visiting here lads :-)
[16:21:17] <archivist> note the wave transmission speed varies with medium and that therefore effects accuracy
[16:21:39] <archivist> see velocity factor for coax cables
[16:22:27] <archivist> we do tend to have a mix of all rounders in here :)
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[16:25:14] <Paragon-ws> I had just type a message and inadvertently deleted it :-(
[16:29:39] <Paragon-ws> Heres the idea : txrx-1 sends a 1khz signal on 100Mhz which is received by rxtx-2 and then re transmitted on 110Mhz which returns to txrx1 I am looking at measuring the gap between the sent signal and the received signal. Given that light travels at around 30cm per ns or just under a foot. A two ns sec delay will equal around 30cm in distance.
[16:30:35] <Paragon-ws> Does this sound plausible?
[16:32:19] <archivist> forget the 1khz but
[16:32:24] <archivist> forget the 1khz bit
[16:32:47] <jdhNC> OUT .9-0
[16:32:47] <jdhNC> END
[16:32:51] <jdhNC> erk
[16:32:53] <archivist> but see how a geonometer works
[16:33:35] <Paragon-ws> archivist: Google'ing now...
[16:34:29] <archivist> google hates that spelling, its a radio distance survey meter
[16:34:42] <Paragon-ws> archivist: Did you mean geometer?
[16:35:02] <Paragon-ws> just saw your other reply...
[16:35:46] <archivist> in quotes there are some finds, but not a good one
[16:36:56] <archivist> anyway you dont need fast edges just measure the phase change
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[16:38:35] <Paragon-ws> I was looking at using signal strengh but that wont be reliable enough I then started to look at phase shift but again there are issues with radio bounce hence why I am going down this route with the start stop method. This method is used for particle physics measurments. The other method that I have found is the vernier method.
[16:38:55] <pcw_home> Or use FM like WWII height finders
[16:39:40] <Paragon-ws> pcw_home: looking at wikipeadia as we speak :-)
[16:39:42] <archivist> you said 100 meg carrier, but you were also asking for 1 ns step change
[16:42:34] <archivist> 1ns is 1gig carrier, so asking for a step change of 1 ns in a 1 us signal, not going to happen
[16:42:43] <Paragon-ws> archivist: Oh that was the other question I was going to ask. Am I right in thinking that I would need a higher carrier to get the resolution of say a 1ns step change?
[16:43:31] <archivist> switching a 1 gig carrier on/off makes more sense yes
[16:43:37] <Paragon-ws> Agreed... I will probably use 2.4ghz carrier.
[16:46:17] <pcw_home> FM radio altimeter is a better search term
[16:47:19] <Paragon-ws> pcw_home: looking now :-)
[16:47:54] <archivist> or even just radar and use a passive reflector
[16:48:47] <A2Sheds> sorry to jump into this late, is the actual problem how to measure distance? and at what range and what desired accuracy?
[16:50:42] <pcw_home> if its short distance whats wrong with those ultrasonic (used to be polaroid) systems?
[16:50:59] <Paragon-ws> A2Sheds: Yes it's to measure distance. Accuracy of say between 1-2 mtr distance around 2mtr to say 100mtr.
[16:51:46] <Paragon-ws> pcw_home: I need upto around 100mtr.
[16:52:15] <Paragon-ws> Cant use laser as it requires line of sight.
[16:52:21] <pcw_home> http://mwrf.com/Articles/Index.cfm?ArticleID=10583&pg=2 is a relatively current example
[16:52:40] <pcw_home> whats the target?
[16:52:42] <A2Sheds> well even microwave is line of sight
[16:52:54] <Paragon-ws> pcw_home: I was reading the very same article :-)
[16:54:04] <A2Sheds> do you want to measure around corners? or is it that the line of sight is blocked in the visible spectrum?
[16:54:29] <Paragon-ws> pcw_home: not sure what you mean by target.
[16:55:04] <A2Sheds> signal source -------------->target ----------------> source
[16:55:25] <Paragon-ws> A2Sheds: Both of those scenarios could be possible.
[16:56:07] <A2Sheds> it going to be like 20 questions to find out why you can't use a laser or radar
[16:56:14] <Paragon-ws> ok as it needs to be of this ilk ... txrx1 > txrx2 > txrx1
[16:57:38] <Paragon-ws> A2Sheds: LOL sorry... I'm trying to explain the process ... albeit not to well :-(
[16:58:42] <A2Sheds> gunn diode radar mixers are low cost, you can do pulse, doppler or FM
[16:59:11] <A2Sheds> it's what radar guns use
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[17:00:23] <A2Sheds> microwave source and mixer in the same device
[17:00:57] <A2Sheds> but it's line of sight >1GHz
[17:02:12] <Paragon-ws> A2Sheds: Not to sure if that would be adequate for this process. I need to have active devices at each end. I guess im looking at a kind of responder device.
[17:02:48] <A2Sheds> you can one at each end
[17:03:25] <Paragon-ws> Above >1Ghz line of site? is that true?
[17:05:12] <A2Sheds> depends on your transmit power level and receivers noise and what is blocking
[17:05:39] <A2Sheds> steel wall vs wood, water, plaster, concrete etc
[17:06:06] <A2Sheds> there are attenuation tables you google
[17:06:09] <Paragon-ws> Oh OK I thought so as 802.11 wifi uses 2.4Ghz right and I can receive it in my garden ;-)
[17:06:12] <A2Sheds> you can
[17:07:00] <A2Sheds> are you concerned about FCC regulations?
[17:07:11] <A2Sheds> or another similar agency?
[17:07:44] <Paragon-ws> Not at this stage in development but it will become a concern down the road.
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[17:10:31] <A2Sheds> http://www.minicircuits.com/homepage/homepage.html
[17:11:23] <Paragon-ws> A2Sheds: Thanks for the link :-)
[17:11:34] <A2Sheds> Paragon-ws: you can find modular RF blocks there
[17:15:09] <A2Sheds> Paragon-ws: I'd pick the band based on FCC regs
[17:15:46] <Paragon-ws> Yes best to start on the right foot :-)
[17:16:38] <Paragon-ws> found these on ebay... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-NRF24L01-Wireless-Transceiver-Module-2-4GHz-Arduino-/370514764639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item564466a35f
[17:21:01] <A2Sheds> http://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/IC/nRF2401A.pdf actual rf part
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[17:24:20] <A2Sheds> it doesn't look like there are any taps to the package pins at the mixer
[17:24:42] <Paragon-ws> Looks like an interesting proposition. One issue maybe time lag especially when measuring around the 5ns range?
[17:25:11] <A2Sheds> what you really need is just the rf section
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[17:25:29] <Paragon-ws> That what I was hoping.
[17:26:10] <Paragon-ws> But it appears it needs to go through a digital buffer which is the problem.
[17:26:24] <A2Sheds> Phillips used to have a giant databook filled with RF parts
[17:26:50] <A2Sheds> yeah, you'll lose any time reference there
[17:27:46] <A2Sheds> I worked in RF and microwave in the 70's-80's, a bit rusty on who has what today
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[17:28:04] <ds3> A2Sheds: what aspect of RF and uWave?
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[17:29:01] <A2Sheds> engineered about everything, antennas, transmitters, TV's etc
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[17:29:42] <ds3> so you were a hard core analog guy with smith charges in your daily life?
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[17:31:09] <ds3> s/charges/charts/
[17:31:11] <A2Sheds> why I'm comfortable with 4 GHz signals now on PC motherboards, we used to tune traces boards with razor blades
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[17:34:16] <A2Sheds> Paragon-ws: try TriQuint, Maxim, Avago, TI, M/A-Com and NXP
[17:35:06] <Paragon-ws> Thanks A2Sheds I will do.
[17:36:08] <Paragon-ws> Gotta Dash dinners on the table :-) Thanks for you input Guys!
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[17:37:46] <Danimal_garage> morning
[17:47:36] <archivist> A2Sheds, so you would recognise this era gear http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2002/2002_05_09_Portacabin_Electronics/P1010017.JPG
[17:50:16] <Spida> is it feasible to do time of flight distance measurements with (laser)light on hobby level? I am not talking about interference measurement...
[17:50:51] <A2Sheds> if it wasn't for the books on Samba and Linux I thought I was back in 1982
[17:51:22] <archivist> Spida, dunno, I bought an inteferometer on ebay to have a play recently
[17:57:44] <Tom_itx> Spida, http://www.users.qwest.net/~kmaxon/page/side/art9_137.htm
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[17:58:40] <Tom_itx> although he takes his hobby rather seriously
[18:00:39] <archivist> pretty well written up too
[18:00:59] <Tom_itx> check out the rest of his site while you're there
[18:06:43] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: That vision thing is pretty darn awesome.
[18:11:22] <hatch789> KimK: hey Kim did you have a chance to work on the 7i49 board at all over the weekend?
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[18:33:21] <Spida> Tom_itx: thats not time of flight, is it?
[18:38:03] <archivist> no its not
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[18:41:49] <hatch789> hey guys is Mesa the leader when it comes to boards that will integrate with old machines and EMC2?
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[18:42:32] <archivist> I would say yes (and Im not a customer)
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[18:49:07] <A2Sheds> http://www.networkworld.com/news/2011/083011-zemlin-250234.html 'You are an idiot' if you don't give back to open source
[18:52:05] <A2Sheds> How did EMC get started at the NIST? What was the reason it became open?
[18:55:00] <A2Sheds> I know what the wiki has to say
[18:58:45] <Jymmm> A2Sheds: It was starter by the guberment, it's all public domain at that point at least for US Citizens.
[18:59:19] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: We're lucky. Nowadays it would be national security.
[18:59:32] <FinboySlick> Everything's national security these days.
[18:59:36] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: Nah, FOIA baby!
[18:59:40] <A2Sheds> back when Clinton was prez
[19:00:27] <archivist> one US project was open then became "self funding" bar stewards
[19:00:42] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: under FOIA, the code would consist of several lines of black marker ;)
[19:00:54] <A2Sheds> I bet if it came together in 06 vs 96
[19:00:59] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: maybe =)
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[19:01:56] <archivist> BRL-CAD was lucky to become open
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[19:38:12] <hatch789> so does anyone else have an opinion on good board manufacturers that integrate old machines with EMC2?
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[19:38:57] <Connor> that's kinda a broad question.. You looking for a motherboard, or what?
[19:39:30] <Connor> I built my little CNC controller for $300.00. 4 gig of ram, 32GB SSHD and dual parport pci card.
[19:39:32] <Jymmm> intel mobo are my pref for everything
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[19:45:41] <hatch789> no I'm trying to find out if there are any other good companies out there that make integration boards for old machines hooking into EMC2?
[19:45:59] <hatch789> my PC has been completed for weeks. I'm just trying to integrate it to my old Tree Milling machine
[19:46:13] <cradek> tell us more about your machine
[19:46:16] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine
[19:46:44] <hatch789> Mesa has been the only viable choice I have had (so far) but they are not done developing their 7i49 board which I'm told I will need
[19:47:15] <hatch789> so I can't use Mesa if I want a solution right now. If waiting is my only choice ...fine. But I figured I would so some homework while I waited
[19:47:19] <cradek> so are you asking about resolvers? please be specific
[19:48:10] <hatch789> I'm simply asking what companies might be able to help me by providing the required boards so that I can integrate my PC (with EMC2) into my old Tree milling machine
[19:48:26] <hatch789> my machine has 2 servo motors with tacheometers and resolvers
[19:48:30] <cradek> yes I saw that, but I know nothing about your machine
[19:48:54] <cradek> do the original amps still work?
[19:49:40] <hatch789> yes the CNC computer seems to be the thing that's messed up. Did you see my picture links? If you look there's 11 pages of pics and many of the later pics show the electronics in greater detail
[19:49:44] <frysteev> hatch789: mesa can do servos and resolvers,
[19:50:08] <frysteev> KimK has said there will be an answer of somesort on the 7149 servo resolver board re emc support today
[19:50:18] <cradek> ok I see the photos. the text says you are unsure they are resolvers. do you know this for sure now?
[19:50:58] <hatch789> I think I'm pretty sure now. From the research I've been doing they appear to be resolvers for sure
[19:51:10] <hatch789> 6 wires
[19:51:28] <cradek> encoders could also definitely have 6 wires
[19:51:43] <cradek> what other evidence have you found?
[19:51:47] <hatch789> frysteev: an answer, but may not be the answer I want :) I might have weeks or months to wait. And I've already been waiting 2 months
[19:52:08] <hatch789> I spoke to the company that supports TREE now and he confirmed they are resolvers
[19:52:16] <cradek> ah ok.
[19:52:33] <frysteev> hatch789: im in a similar situation. my machine has resolvers, so i hear ya
[19:53:00] <cradek> pico has a resolver converter board that is available today (but I think I remember having this conversation already)
[19:53:06] <hatch789> the CNC did work (a little bit) when I got the machine, but now as soon as I fire it up and hit RESET the X axis begins to move and I have to do e-stop after 15 or so seconds before it hits my limit switches
[19:53:24] <hatch789> having this conversation with me?
[19:53:33] <cradek> yes I thought so, but might be mistaken
[19:54:14] <cradek> if it drifts, you don't have position feedback, so you may have a bad resolver (or other related part). your other option of course is to replace them with encoders.
[19:54:37] <hatch789> ok if we have ...forgive me but I have been all over the place trying to learn about my machine and to get as much info on it as I can. I settled with Mesa right off the bat only because someone said use MESA. But I never explored other options
[19:54:41] <hatch789> it's not drift
[19:54:55] <cradek> describe?
[19:55:04] <hatch789> it's more like a bad component in the CNC computer.... ok I'll explain
[19:55:38] <cradek> I've used the pico resolver converter fed into a mesa servo interface board (quadrature input) on two machines
[19:55:44] <hatch789> if you watch the X handle it turns CCW for about .2 seconds then it starts CW for 4 or so seconds
[19:56:14] <hatch789> it's going at what appears to be max speed when it does this so I'm sure that's not good for the servo and the belt drive to go from one direction max speed to the opposite direction immediately
[19:56:50] <cradek> ok, more like runaway than drift - that can also be caused by loss of position feedback (pid quickly saturates)
[19:57:10] <hatch789> I was told I would want to order 3 boards from mesa to make everythign work: 7i43-u-4, 7i49, 7i37TA
[19:57:44] <hatch789> well whatever it is, I attributed it to a component going bad on the CNC (computer) side of the machine
[19:57:58] <cncbasher> hatch789: sounds as if the resolver is out of phase with the rotation of the shaft
[19:58:00] <hatch789> so I think the driver amps work fine
[19:58:26] <hatch789> it did start doing this after I removed the servo motor
[19:59:16] <hatch789> probably around page 7 or 8 of my pics
[19:59:16] <cncbasher> so the servo turns the shaft cw , but the resolver thinks it's going ccw
[19:59:17] <hatch789> when I put it back in then it started doing this
[19:59:17] <cradek> yes I'm sure the amp is fine
[19:59:17] <archivist> have you just broken a resolver wire?
[19:59:17] <cradek> are they AC or DC servos?
[19:59:38] <hatch789> I think they're DC Servos but I'm still trying to find that out 100%
[19:59:45] <cradek> yes if they are DC, I suspect you just broke a wire
[20:00:08] <hatch789> I was careful and didn't touch the resolver. The wires should be fine but I'll check that
[20:00:17] <cncbasher> are the servo's also fitted with tach ?
[20:00:28] <hatch789> yes
[20:00:29] <cradek> someone was incorrect or overconfident to recommend 7i49 which is not supported yet
[20:00:36] <cncbasher> you may have reversed the tach connections
[20:01:00] <cradek> 7i33/7i48 plus the pico board would work fine (assuming your resolvers/tachs/amps are good)
[20:01:02] <hatch789> I never disconnected anything ...just cocked the servo to get it off the belt and put it up on the table to take those pictures
[20:01:35] <hatch789> would re-inserting it in the belt in a different spot have caused this?
[20:01:44] <cradek> cncbasher: if tach is backward causing runaway in the velocity loop, you'd think the control would disable it considering it has position feedback. I suspect a position feedback problem.
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[20:02:08] <cradek> hatch789: very doubtful
[20:02:55] <hatch789> cradek: I can open the servo compaartment again to check the wires but I was very careful I doubt I broke or disconnected any wires.
[20:03:18] <cncbasher> i have had this problem with some kollmorgen servo controls and found some caps had dry'd out and needed replacing
[20:03:30] <hatch789> how could tach be backwards if I never removed it ...I just took the servo off to take those pictures
[20:03:38] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine
[20:03:40] <cncbasher> but if the machne was working fine before you removed the servo drive
[20:03:58] <hatch789> Look at page 7
[20:04:04] <cradek> yes if it broke that day, the most likely explanation is you broke a wire
[20:04:13] <hatch789> I know ...it's definitely suspicious
[20:04:24] <cncbasher> then it could be that you have disturbed someting
[20:04:31] <cradek> yep
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[20:04:58] <cradek> all that tape looks like a previous suspicious repair job
[20:05:08] <cradek> possibly that made it more fragile
[20:05:13] <cncbasher> or as mentioned broke the resolver wires
[20:05:18] <hatch789> I thought that was from factory
[20:06:00] <hatch789> crap maybe it was already a shitty repair before and the wire (twist) or however they spliced something under that mess... got disturbed?
[20:06:11] <hatch789> so that black tape isn't normal then ...lol
[20:06:14] <cradek> that seems extremely likely to me
[20:06:22] <hatch789> ok
[20:06:36] <hatch789> well in either event I will still want to rip out the old CNC brain in this beast
[20:06:44] <cncbasher> but answering your question , i use mesa , and i dont think you can go wrong with cradek suggestions
[20:07:03] <cradek> for approximately the price of the pico converters you may be able to fit encoders. the mounting with flex coupler looks very easy to adjust to a modern encoder if you have a lathe and a bit of craftiness.
[20:07:24] <cradek> lots of room available, too
[20:07:30] <cncbasher> have you any service manuals covering the servo amps etc
[20:07:33] <hatch789> so you're saying that 7i33/7i48 plus a pico board would probably get me up and running immediately with EMC2?
[20:08:03] <cncbasher> they should include a section on testing the resolvers
[20:08:03] <cradek> yes, after you fix whatever problem is currently there
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[20:08:32] <cradek> http://pico-systems.com/resolver.html
[20:08:57] <hatch789> what if my problem is in the CNC computer though?
[20:09:14] <hatch789> I hate to chase a ghost if I'm just going to rip all of that out anyway
[20:09:17] <cradek> then the resolver, tach, and amp are probably fine
[20:09:47] <cradek> you don't have enough evidence to know one way or the other, yet
[20:09:54] <hatch789> I think I was reading that the resolvers are nice though because you know position even if you use manual controls then?
[20:10:27] <hatch789> cradek: would you be willing to help me a bit with my "discovery" phase of this?
[20:10:28] <cradek> that is not an advantage of resolvers; replacing with encoders will not affect that
[20:10:54] <hatch789> what is the diff between them?
[20:10:59] <hatch789> resolver vs encoder?
[20:11:29] <cradek> they are very different mechanically but once hooked to emc you won't know any difference because they perform the same function.
[20:12:03] <hatch789> ok so if I put encoders on instead of my resolvers will that simplify things for emc2 interfacing?
[20:12:24] <cradek> yes, you can use any supported mesa card then
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[20:12:42] <cradek> and you would not need the separate pico boards at $150 each
[20:12:50] <hatch789> so how much would 2 encoders be for me to buy?
[20:12:50] <cradek> where is this machine?
[20:13:01] <hatch789> mount joy, PA
[20:13:20] <cradek> encoders are available for approximately $10-$10000 each, haha
[20:13:27] <hatch789> lol
[20:13:43] <hatch789> ok for this machine. it's a nice piece of iron with ball screws in x&y axis
[20:13:57] <cradek> ok, so not within a short drive of my house then :-)
[20:13:58] <hatch789> what would your recommendation be for encoders?
[20:14:04] <cncbasher> at least 2500 count encoders
[20:14:27] <cradek> something with differential, 1000+ line
[20:14:34] <cradek> with index of course
[20:14:57] <cradek> unfortunately ebay might be the best bet
[20:14:59] <cncbasher> 5000 would be excellent
[20:15:01] <hatch789> where do you live?
[20:15:07] <cradek> Lincoln NE
[20:15:13] <hatch789> ouch
[20:15:32] <hatch789> ok so I want 2500 count encoders, 1000+ line with index
[20:15:35] <cradek> US Digital kit encoders are cheap, but not sure if you can get differential
[20:15:37] <hatch789> what's the 5000 number?
[20:16:23] <hatch789> you're talking Greek to me at the moment. Is there a link where they sell good encoders or do I want to dare try e-bay?
[20:16:25] <cradek> I wouldn't recommend super high resolution like 5000 because you can easily run into max count speed problems
[20:17:38] <cncbasher> theirs plenty of them on ebay
[20:17:42] <hatch789> so 2500 then
[20:17:56] <cncbasher> go with 2500 count ones and you will be fine
[20:17:59] <hatch789> with differential and 1000+ line and index
[20:18:07] <cncbasher> but not lower
[20:18:12] <cncbasher> yes
[20:19:01] <hatch789> what's the 1000+ line referring to?
[20:19:43] <cradek> you get 4 counts per line
[20:19:51] <cradek> you have to be careful because people talk about resolution in different ways
[20:19:57] <hatch789> can you help me look on e-bay for something close to what you're talking about so I have a starting point. I'm on there now but the search is a
[20:20:13] <cncbasher> search for shaft encoder
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[20:20:15] <hatch789> giant bumble-f***
[20:20:17] <hatch789> ok
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[20:21:09] <cncbasher> or search on autonics rotary encoder
[20:21:16] <cncbasher> that should get you close
[20:23:31] <cncbasher> you need 3 phase at minimum i.e A ,B, Z, but idealy the 6 phase
[20:23:39] <hatch789> ok I'm seeing quite a few
[20:23:57] <hatch789> so if I was wrong and my servos are AC ...not DC, would the solution cradek proposed still work
[20:24:12] <hatch789> 7i33/7i48 and pico board?
[20:24:21] <cradek> nope
[20:24:33] <cradek> if they are AC, the resolvers are hooked to the drives, and you better not screw that up
[20:24:50] <hatch789> shit
[20:24:55] <cncbasher> have you information on the servo drives
[20:25:00] <cncbasher> model number etc
[20:25:01] <hatch789> so what's the easiest way to tell if my servos are AC or DC?
[20:25:12] <hatch789> yes they 're in the pictures
[20:25:13] <cncbasher> or take some pictures
[20:25:18] <cradek> find specs on the motor or amp
[20:25:21] <hatch789> that's why I removed that one drive to take all the pics of it
[20:25:27] <hatch789> start on page 7
[20:25:30] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/index.php?dir=_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine
[20:25:30] <cradek> or check for brushes :-)
[20:25:42] <hatch789> there appears to be brush access points
[20:25:50] <hatch789> I unscrewed one
[20:25:57] <hatch789> but didn't pull the brush out
[20:26:11] <cradek> did you see a spring and a braided wire?
[20:26:31] <hatch789> no that was probably just the cap I unscrewed
[20:26:54] <hatch789> I bet the back end of the brush was just kind of held in by friction
[20:26:56] <cradek> if you can get to one, you might unscrew it and see if there's a brush
[20:27:10] <hatch789> if I pop that out I bet it's the conventional spring loaded brush
[20:27:17] <cradek> yep, bet so
[20:27:31] <cradek> then it's DC for sure
[20:27:42] <cradek> actually, tachs is a pretty good indicator it's DC servos, too
[20:28:04] <cradek> brb
[20:29:21] <cncbasher> i'll go for dc too
[20:29:21] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine/2011_0619_220008.jpg
[20:29:34] <hatch789> look at this pic and you can just barely make out 2 of the 4 brush access ports
[20:30:10] <cncbasher> yep
[20:30:31] <hatch789> http://oupower.com/_My_Projects/_Shop_Projects/Tree%20Journeyman%20200R%20Milling%20Machine/2011_0524_180620.jpg
[20:30:33] <cncbasher> look on the servo amps for any plates and info
[20:30:35] <hatch789> this pic a bit more
[20:30:46] <hatch789> I think I have that
[20:30:49] <hatch789> they are in the book
[20:30:54] <hatch789> book is at home
[20:30:58] <hatch789> westamp maybe????
[20:31:31] <cncbasher> they will probably at a guess be 180v dc
[20:31:34] <hatch789> ok will you 2 gentlemen be online for another hour? I have a 30 minute drive home
[20:31:59] <cncbasher> i should be
[20:32:44] <hatch789> would it be possible to speak to you over the phone or do you prefer IRC chat?
[20:32:59] <cncbasher> i'm in the UK
[20:33:02] <hatch789> ahh
[20:33:07] <cncbasher> but i do use skype
[20:33:13] <cncbasher> if you wish to
[20:33:32] <hatch789> my user id in skype is hatch789s
[20:33:36] <cncbasher> ok
[20:33:41] <cncbasher> i'll add you
[20:33:45] <hatch789> ok
[20:33:51] <cncbasher> for when you arrive
[20:33:53] <hatch789> I just want to get this thing running emc2
[20:33:59] <cncbasher> no problem
[20:34:02] <hatch789> I have been waiting so patiently for 2 months now
[20:34:04] <hatch789> it's driving me nuts
[20:34:11] <cncbasher> if you can suffer questions and time differences
[20:34:13] <cradek> heh, waiting was the wrong approach :-)
[20:34:21] <cncbasher> haha yes
[20:34:23] <hatch789> waitiing for this sucks
[20:34:25] <cncbasher> get stuck in
[20:34:33] <cradek> I'll be away tonight but back tomorrow
[20:34:41] <hatch789> cradek will you be available in 30 or so minutes
[20:34:46] <hatch789> I have to drive home
[20:35:10] <cradek> sorry, no
[20:35:14] <hatch789> ok
[20:35:34] <hatch789> well if you guys can help me get this up and running I'd be so excited
[20:35:38] <cncbasher> ok set you up on skype
[20:35:53] <hatch789> I'm waiting for "ghost" boards and possible solutions that are yet to be developed and it's killing me
[20:36:09] <cncbasher> you dont have a problem
[20:36:13] <hatch789> good
[20:36:14] <cradek> I would not wait on 7i49 support. I have not heard one word about it being in the works.
[20:36:20] <hatch789> ok
[20:36:21] <cncbasher> just a steep learning curve
[20:36:39] <cradek> yes - you need to figure out what you have, then make a plan, then do it
[20:36:50] <hatch789> so 7i33/7i48
[20:36:51] <cradek> each step takes a lot of knowledge you don't have
[20:36:53] <A2Sheds> what's this 7i49 I've been hearing about?
[20:37:00] <cradek> same as 7i48 but with resolver inputs
[20:37:16] <cradek> the board is available, but there's not support in the emc/hal driver
[20:37:30] <A2Sheds> ok, I'm waiting for the new PCIe IO board
[20:37:48] <hatch789> so 7i48 is for encoders?
[20:37:54] <cradek> brb again
[20:37:55] <cradek> yes
[20:37:56] <hatch789> what's the 7i33 board for?
[20:38:23] <cncbasher> servo output
[20:38:28] <hatch789> ok
[20:38:37] <hatch789> and the pico board I will need. What will that do?
[20:39:31] <hatch789> ahh wait that was if I kept the resolvers ...yes? if I go with encoders then I can do with just the 7i33 + 7i48 board ...right?
[20:40:00] <cncbasher> yes
[20:40:46] <hatch789> ok so my solution is maybe going to be around 400 bucks
[20:40:58] <hatch789> if I can get 2 encoders that are good enough for 100 each
[20:41:42] <cncbasher> i'd go with 600
[20:43:15] <hatch789> are encoders better than resolvers in general?
[20:44:13] <cncbasher> just realy more modern equivilants
[20:44:18] <hatch789> I ask because if I keep the resolvers and just add the pico boards I'm looking at 300 for the resolver/encoder solution plus no retrofitting to put the encoders on
[20:44:55] <cncbasher> resolvers can be a bit of a fiddle to set up
[20:44:56] <hatch789> so maybe the pico boards would be the way to go and just keep my resolvers then
[20:45:10] <hatch789> I'm not afraid of a challenge
[20:45:20] <cncbasher> either way it's not a major problem
[20:45:32] <cncbasher> just a steep learning curve for you
[20:45:33] <hatch789> but I guess let's try to find some reasonably priced encoders and then I can decide
[20:45:47] <hatch789> ok I'm heading home now
[20:45:51] <cncbasher> ok
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[20:47:03] <Danimal_garage> pico boards work great
[20:47:09] <Danimal_garage> i use them in my lathe
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[20:53:42] <cradek> I agree, but damn are they expensive
[20:53:52] <cradek> $450 for a three axis mill
[20:54:30] <Danimal_garage> did they go up?
[20:54:38] <cradek> current price list says $150 ea
[20:54:40] <Danimal_garage> i thought they were less than that
[20:54:43] <Danimal_garage> youch
[20:54:56] <Danimal_garage> i forgot, it's been almost 2 years
[20:55:34] <Danimal_garage> yea i guess it might have been $300 for the lathe
[20:55:35] <cradek> but realistically it might be hard to fit encoders for < $150/axis considering cost and time
[20:55:55] <Danimal_garage> especially on the HNC
[20:55:55] <cradek> it's a tough call
[20:56:01] <Danimal_garage> not a ton of room there
[20:56:14] <cradek> yes on the HNC it's very hard especially if you need to keep the tachs
[20:56:26] <cradek> definitely worth buying the convertors
[20:57:41] <Danimal_garage> agreed
[20:57:56] <Danimal_garage> 2 years so far, and no problems
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[21:24:37] <Danimal_garage> dammit! got air in my toolchanger's hydraullic cyl somehow
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[21:25:23] <Danimal_garage> now i gotta figure out why, and how to bleed it again
[21:25:37] <Danimal_garage> :(
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[22:53:54] <PCW> andypugh there?
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[22:55:34] <andypugh> I am
[22:55:55] <andypugh> hi PCW
[22:56:04] <PCW> Hi Andy
[22:57:31] <PCW> Do you know if your latest SSERIAL patches got into master. I see some bugs that I thought had been squashed
[22:57:57] <andypugh> I thought so.
[22:58:17] <PCW> And I dont recall seeing them on my hand patched master
[22:58:22] <andypugh> They went in to 2.5 then got merged up, I thought
[22:59:30] <PCW> Looks like a race condition (perhaps writing the command reg when busy) manifest itself in inability to start about 1 put of 5 starts
[23:00:33] <PCW> Verified SSLBP with test loop (up to 500,000 or so now start doit stop passes)
[23:01:03] <PCW> So I dont _think_ its a firmware bug
[23:02:35] <PCW> once running it runs happily and if it doesnt start it can always be started with setp sserial.run false then true again
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[23:03:19] <andypugh> Does the code you have look like this (especially around line 396) http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/sserial.c;h=b51294d1f92ab4edbe95b28ac1f66b80eb74e4d9;hb=d4e9c8f14ed8c0206de43a017e0d8047e2bf8ee3
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[23:03:53] <andypugh> You still there PCW? (Am I still here?)
[23:04:20] <PCW> Yes survived the spilt
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[23:05:42] <PCW> Looks similar
[23:07:16] <PCW> when it fails to start you usually get "Smart Serial data transfer failure..." but sometimes "command reg not cleared..."
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[23:09:07] <PCW> I think V24 has a bug if you issue a DOIT that includes channels that didn't start (this is fixed in V26) but V26 didnt affect EMCs behaviour
[23:11:32] <PCW> Still there Andy?
[23:12:30] <andypugh> Yes, I am going to insert the file I sent you 28th July to see if there are any differences
[23:13:06] <Tom_itx> what would i add to the firmware.txt to build the 7i43 for the 7i47 board? i'm pretty sure i have the 47 files here somewhere
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[23:13:57] <Tom_itx> gonna try to get my head around that this evening hopefully
[23:14:07] <PCW> whats in firmware.txt? the name of the pinout file?
[23:14:12] <Tom_itx> yes
[23:14:16] <Tom_itx> for the whole set
[23:14:32] <Tom_itx> all boards i think that are emc2 supported
[23:14:39] <PCW> well look for one with 7I47 and 48 in the name
[23:14:41] <andypugh> PCW: current v2.5_branch appears similar to the one I sent you on the 28th
[23:14:54] <Tom_itx> not sure it was in there
[23:15:37] <Tom_itx> anyway, i'll check it after bit, gotta run an errand real quick
[23:15:44] <PCW> There are many new ones
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[23:16:55] <PCW> so too lazy to look it up git question: how do i make that branch
[23:18:38] <PCW> (the working one went away when the old hard drive died)
[23:20:03] <andypugh> git checkout v2.5_branch
[23:20:22] <andypugh> That creates a new branch tracking the v2.5 on the server.
[23:21:13] <andypugh> However that ought to be identical to master
[23:21:29] <PCW> in the same directory? (git is a mystery to me)
[23:21:52] <andypugh> yes, in your git directory
[23:22:00] <andypugh> (probably emc2-dev)
[23:22:38] <PCW> so if i checkout master or whatever i will be back to where I was?
[23:23:49] <andypugh> Yes, you can swap about between branches and all the files change.
[23:24:07] <andypugh> It's all quite clever, but hugely baffling with it.
[23:25:19] <PCW> OK I kind of thought that but it seemed too magical to trust so I just downloaded a different copy
[23:25:44] <PCW> (last time) I will try checkout this time
[23:26:08] <andypugh> Well, that is what Git does, it just hides all the multitude of file versions where you don't see them.
[23:27:04] <PCW> OK let me try 2.5
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[23:28:25] <mikegg> I thought I was the only one flummoxed by git :)
[23:28:50] <andypugh> I don't think there is any point, the two versions should be identical.
[23:30:00] <andypugh> Is it possible that you haven't pulled and/or recompiled?
[23:32:53] <andypugh> PCW: When it has failed to start, what is the value of the port_state pin?
[23:33:34] <PCW> Well i cant get checkout to work because of local changes
[23:35:53] <andypugh> Ah, yes, you will need to commit the changes in the current branch.
[23:36:01] <PCW> 0x20
[23:37:15] <andypugh> OK, you should only get to 0x20 if there have been hudreds of errors.
[23:37:55] <andypugh> Have you changed the default increment, decrement or threshold for the error counter?
[23:38:10] <PCW> There seem to be hundreds (since the channels didnt start)
[23:40:46] <andypugh> Can you pastebin the dmesg?
[23:42:25] <PCW> no didn't change anything (really there should never be a CRC or timeout error unless you have a very bad noise situation)
[23:43:43] <PCW> Yeah first error is always the same (Smart Serial data transfer error on port 0 channel 1...)
[23:44:36] <PCW> but neither 7I64 has started (red lights on both)
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[23:53:36] <andypugh> That's odd. I have never had any problem starting the 7i64
[23:54:20] <andypugh> I have not seen any errors at all, in fact
[23:54:24] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/dmesg
[23:55:55] <PCW> This seems to happen randomly about 1 time out of 5
[23:56:48] <andypugh> Hmm, that's only the one-off warning.
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[23:57:43] <andypugh> There shouldn't be any route to the 0x20 state without the ""Smart Serial Comms Error: There have been more than %i errors in %i thread executions at least %i times. See other error messages for details.\n" message
[23:57:57] <PCW> but neither channel (i have 2 ATM) started
[23:59:05] <PCW> I have had both that single error and many errors when it fails let me read the port state and matching error message