#emc | Logs for 2011-04-27

[00:01:01] <andypugh> Cheaper than buying lumps of billet (they are 5" diameter)
[00:01:02] <The_Ball> What have you got going on here? looks like a rectifier and a audio amp chiop? https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5471910779533402834
[00:01:23] <andypugh> It's a 3-phase motor drive.
[00:01:30] <andypugh> IRAMS module.
[00:01:39] <andypugh> 600V 10A device.
[00:02:33] <andypugh> But I kept doing this to them, so gave up: https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5469721364857131746
[00:03:29] <The_Ball> what a handy device, but auch
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[00:15:45] <andypugh> night all
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[01:18:27] <ssi> too quiet!
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[01:29:19] <mendelbuild> MattyMatt: hey!
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[01:31:28] <Goslowjimbo> logger archive
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[01:34:36] <Goslowjimbo> What is the instructio to get the archived files?
[01:34:49] <Goslowjimbo> instruction
[01:35:11] <Valen> i normally just google it
[01:35:40] <Goslowjimbo> What is your searh string for google?
[01:38:29] <Valen> emc2 irc log
[01:38:41] <Valen> http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/
[01:40:03] <tom3p> this is psha's its very up to date & reliable http://psha.org.ru/irc/
[01:41:02] <tom3p> his index page will give you emc & emc-devl irc logs in a calendar format
[01:42:12] <Goslowjimbo> Thanks
[01:45:54] <tom3p> logger[psha]:
[01:46:09] <tom3p> is that what you were lookin for ? ^^^
[01:50:17] <Valen> hmm i think my greylisting must be off
[01:55:13] <Goslowjimbo> Yes, thank you
[01:55:31] <tom3p> np, thx to psha
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[05:28:34] <West0n> Starting a genral cnc design/build chanel. ##diycnc you are all free to join
[05:29:59] <ds3> just CNC?
[05:31:39] <EDocTooR_> CNC and penquins
[05:32:26] <Jymmm> What is the name of this type of molecular model? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Caffeine.svg/200px-Caffeine.svg.png
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[05:34:29] <ds3> donno what the equiv of a benzene ring is called when the atoms are N
[05:34:40] <West0n> Nitrobenzene?
[05:34:49] <West0n> :P
[05:34:59] <West0n> Irs cnc build mostly
[05:35:08] <Jymmm> No, No, I mean the drawing itself
[05:35:13] <West0n> Talking about consteuction/deisgn/anything
[05:36:51] <Jymmm> Ah, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_line_formula
[05:37:02] <ds3> Oh
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[06:36:23] <psha> Valen: here?
[06:36:30] <Valen> could be ;->
[06:36:38] <Jymmm> IMPOSTOR!
[06:36:44] <Jymmm> IMPOSTER?
[06:36:47] <Jymmm> POSER!!!
[06:36:53] <Valen> now thats true
[06:37:00] <Jymmm> heh
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[06:38:28] <Jymmm> WB
[06:38:31] <Valen> odd
[06:38:34] <Valen> pidgin crashed
[06:39:02] <Valen> psha: as in the webcam > axis integrator person?
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[06:45:03] <Jymmm> Valen: WB, The sequel.
[06:45:20] <Valen> it really doesn't like pasting big links in it seems
[06:45:30] <Valen> <- poser : http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2631/26/106/1148363392/n1148363392_30442081_265729.jpg
[06:45:44] <Jymmm> Probably a weird character (old bug)
[06:46:29] <psha> Valen: i've added flag for choosing input format in camview-emc
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[06:46:52] <Valen> yeah just saw that. any reason for it not reading it from the config file?
[06:47:14] <psha> yes, input format is choosen after loading chain
[06:47:24] <psha> :)
[06:47:45] <Valen> bit of a pain, still seems to be specified in the config file
[06:47:58] <Valen> but the flag will do the job nicely
[06:49:11] <psha> 32 bit packages are already landed into repo
[06:49:25] <Valen> sweet i'll give it a go tomorrow
[06:49:47] <Valen> I'd love to try some computer vision processing stuff on it later
[06:49:55] <Valen> like auto center on hole etc
[06:50:16] <psha> need to run now
[06:50:22] <psha> bb
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[06:50:28] <Valen> thanks
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[11:13:00] <Paragon39> I love this... LOL https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B53oJoJXbpkCNWQ0OTJhOTQtYzRmYy00NjFmLTgwNDQtZjY0ZjIxNDcxMTll&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
[11:16:18] <cpresser> nice :)
[11:24:53] <Paragon39> Bob Widlar, One of the pioneering greats! :-)
[11:26:05] <cpresser> and he is absoultely right :)
[11:26:13] * cpresser is an analog-noob
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[11:31:55] * jthornton has forgotten how to open up mysql :/
[11:32:40] <Jymmm> ?
[11:33:15] <Jymmm> from shell, type mysql<enter>
[11:33:27] <Paragon39> mysql - u root -p
[11:33:46] <jthornton> I thought there was some browser interface that was installed with lamp
[11:34:05] <Jymmm> phpmysql?
[11:34:11] <jthornton> yea that one
[11:35:04] <Paragon39> phpmyadmin no?
[11:35:13] <Jymmm> yes
[11:35:21] <jthornton> or that one ... I can't remember
[11:36:33] <Paragon39> http://IP address/phpMyAdmin
[11:37:13] <jthornton> http://localhost/phpmyadmin :)
[11:37:24] <Paragon39> :-)
[11:37:51] <jthornton> now I have to find my username and password :/
[11:38:40] <Paragon39> http://forum.coppermine-gallery.net/index.php/topic,52213.0.html
[11:39:40] <Paragon39> should be a setup.php script somewere...
[11:39:48] <jthornton> thanks
[11:45:35] <jthornton> Nice, I guessed it :)
[11:45:53] <Paragon39> what was it ;-)
[11:46:29] <jthornton> I forget
[11:46:43] <Paragon39> :-)
[11:52:46] <jthornton> now I have to get a SQL from my online database to recreate it locally, should be fun for all
[11:53:43] <Paragon39> jthornton: use mysqldump command to dump the database.
[11:54:31] <Paragon39> mysqldump --user=XXXXXXXX --password=XXXXXXX -A > /PATH/TO/DUMPFILE.SQL
[11:55:22] <Paragon39> And then to load mysql --verbose --user=XXXXXXXX --password=XXXXXXXX DB_NAME < /PATH/TO/DUMPFILE.SQL
[11:55:29] <jthornton> ah ha there is an EXPORT tab in phpmyadmin
[11:55:45] <Paragon39> Oh I forgot about that...
[12:01:20] <jthornton> Yea! it worked
[12:01:35] <Paragon39> nice :-)
[12:04:15] <archivist_emc> phpmyadmin breaks sql dumps
[12:04:23] <archivist_emc> use mysqldump
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[14:17:29] <MattyMatt> these MOD ballscrews are nice
[14:22:54] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Kinematic-Walking-Beam-15-0L-Leadscrew-GG20-20AS-/140530254419
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[14:23:34] <MattyMatt> 9.5" travel. the nut is heavier than my saddle
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[14:25:09] <TekniQue> wow
[14:25:14] <TekniQue> very coarse pitch
[14:25:35] <TekniQue> what is that 15mm per revolution?
[14:26:28] <MattyMatt> 20mm
[14:26:39] <MattyMatt> single start
[14:28:40] <TekniQue> is that for some special application?
[14:28:40] <MattyMatt> and they're quite stiff. I don't think a nema23 could turn this until it's run in a bit
[14:29:11] <MattyMatt> just for general CNC. the price was the decider
[14:29:31] <MattyMatt> one's going on my mill Z
[14:29:44] <TekniQue> must have some really good torque for such a coarse pitch
[14:29:55] <TekniQue> and high resolution also
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[14:30:03] <MattyMatt> yeah I'll probably have to gear the motor
[14:30:19] <TekniQue> and since microstepping costs torque, you'll probably need gearing
[14:31:29] <MattyMatt> most people belt drive lathe axis anyway. that's where 2 of these are going
[14:31:31] <SWPadnos> microstepping shouldn't "cost torque"
[14:37:42] <TekniQue> well, it does
[14:37:44] <JT-Shop> Yea! sheetrock Friday
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[14:39:03] <Paragon39> How will this fare considering the coarse pitch? Thinking of one for myself. for converting my little 7x12?
[14:39:24] <Paragon39> For use in the cross slide
[14:39:35] <TekniQue> I mean, you'll still have the same amount of average torque
[14:40:06] <TekniQue> but for very small microsteps, the motor will have a very low amount of torque
[14:40:17] <TekniQue> and can miss steps
[14:40:27] <TekniQue> but catch up when it gets near the next full step
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[14:42:36] <pcw_home> Maybe better to say you dont lose torque but you dont gain much accuracy with microstepping
[14:42:38] <pcw_home> what you gain is smoothness
[14:42:48] <TekniQue> yes
[14:43:51] <Paragon39> Paragon39 is trying to learn about op-amps... Don't think I will ever get my head around these things! :-( Just can't seem to get it to do what I want! LM324...
[14:44:36] <pcw_home> but the LM324 is a friendly OP amp...
[14:45:38] <Paragon39> I think your right! I just hit one with a hammer and it did not retaliate!
[14:45:39] * archivist types /me to get the /me effect for Paragon39
[14:46:16] * Paragon39 testing
[14:46:31] <Paragon39> arrh yes!
[14:46:54] <ssi_> ahahaha
[14:48:14] * JT-Shop goes back to work
[14:49:01] <cevad> What are or aren't thte opamps doing?
[14:49:08] <Paragon39> All I want to do is to amplyfy a sinewave in the miliamp range...
[14:49:34] <Paragon39> ie sin wave in (mAmps) sinewave out volts.
[14:50:40] <archivist> current amp
[14:51:07] <Paragon39> Sorry mVolts to volt out
[14:51:14] <cevad> sense resistor to make it volts to volts
[14:51:50] <ssi_> need to set up your feedback network for a 1000:1 gain
[14:53:53] <Paragon39> What should I use inverting or non-inverting? 1000:1 = 1M - 1k or 1K-1R right?
[14:55:29] <pcw_home> if you want a high input impedance, use non-inverting
[14:56:22] <pcw_home> otherwise you will have a 1K input impedance
[14:56:49] <Paragon39> I also need to float the power supply for either the + or - input on the LM324 from my understanding due to it been a single supply Vcc chip. Am I understanding this correctly?
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[14:58:06] <pcw_home> Note that at a gain of 1000 you will only have about 1 KHz bandwidth
[14:58:08] <pcw_home> (it much easier when playing with OP amps to use a dual +- power supply)
[14:58:23] <pcw_home> s/it/its/
[14:58:37] <cevad> you need a pseudo-ground that will move the outpuys awayy from the supply voltages
[14:59:23] <ssi_> input bias network should be enough
[14:59:25] <Paragon39> two same value resistors connected vcc + gnd and tap from center?
[14:59:33] <ssi_> right
[14:59:56] <ssi_> selected for sufficient stiffness without being low enough impedance to load your source
[15:00:31] <archivist> or use an opamp to provide mid rail
[15:01:53] <ssi_> also, if there's a DC component on your source, you'll need a decoupling cap to remove it
[15:02:07] <pcw_home> for the inverting config you can also use a 2x feedback R connected to your 5V and the summing point
[15:03:30] <Paragon39> I am getting something on the scope but not sure if it's correct. The wave form is square at the top and curved at the bottom as I up the input voltage the wave squares of event more.
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[15:03:52] <pcw_home> oops that the wrong way
[15:04:09] <pcw_home> sounds overdriven
[15:04:42] <pcw_home> is it symmetrical?
[15:05:29] <Paragon39> Thats what I am thinking. I dont think I have the feedback correctly setup. 4mv gives me a curved bottom but 10mv will square it so it seems very sensitive.
[15:06:28] <Paragon39> I try and take a photo of the output...
[15:06:40] <pcw_home> if biased correctly the output should be at 2.5V with no input signal
[15:06:41] <pcw_home> (but LM324s wont swing to 5V so for maximum swing you might want the output to be biased to 1.5V or so)
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[15:07:20] <ssi_> 10mV with 1000 gain would be a 10V output
[15:07:31] <ssi_> sure as hell won't be able to swing that ;)
[15:08:32] <Paragon39> its currently using a 100k:1k feedback
[15:08:40] <ssi_> ok
[15:08:56] <ssi_> what's the bias point?
[15:09:12] <Paragon39> 2.5v
[15:11:51] <Paragon39> I think im one of these folks the great Bob Widlar is on about ;-) https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B53oJoJXbpkCNWQ0OTJhOTQtYzRmYy00NjFmLTgwNDQtZjY0ZjIxNDcxMTll&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
[15:14:48] <TekniQue> yes Widlar is good
[15:14:51] <TekniQue> was
[15:15:53] <Paragon39> I can feel him having a chuckle at me at this moment...:-)
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[15:16:42] <anonimasu> pcw_home: are you there?
[15:17:11] <anonimasu> pcw_home: is the mesa pci boards less sensitive to hf noise then the 7i42 boards?
[15:19:30] <anonimasu> I have gigantic trouble with my board 7i42 erroring out on plasma ignition
[15:24:35] <Jymmm> Did you remember to pay your plasma bill this month?
[15:26:28] <anonimasu> yes
[15:26:28] <TekniQue> has your plasma ignition core run out?
[15:26:55] <Jymmm> Do you owe Plasma Tax?
[15:27:28] <anonimasu> defenetively not
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[15:27:40] <Jymmm> Have you replaced your dilithium crystals recently?
[15:27:50] <anonimasu> TekniQue: pretty much the plasma's not been in use at all
[15:28:07] <anonimasu> like 2-5 test cuts over the years
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[15:35:50] <Jymmm> anonimasu: cna you test manually if it's working?
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[15:36:23] <anonimasu> it does
[15:36:35] <anonimasu> it cuts well when it cuts it's just that the ignition makes the mesa boards die
[15:36:57] <Jymmm> Ok, is there any kind of sensor that the mesa reads?
[15:37:15] <Jymmm> Ok, is there any kind of sensor on the plasma that the mesa reads?
[15:39:17] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: is there a way to isolate the torch voltage somehow so the hf does not kill the 7i42?
[15:39:33] <ssi_> is the board shielded at all?
[15:40:07] <anonimasu> it's in a big grounded metal box
[15:40:11] <pcw_home> What exact problem are you having
[15:40:22] <anonimasu> I get following errors on torch ignition
[15:40:23] <anonimasu> all the time
[15:40:36] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Ok, is there any kind of sensor on the plasma that the mesa reads?
[15:40:41] <anonimasu> no
[15:40:48] <anonimasu> only connection I have right now is the ignition relay
[15:40:52] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Are ALL cables shielded?
[15:40:53] <pcw_home> this is a servo system?
[15:41:09] <anonimasu> stepper
[15:41:46] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Are ALL cables shielded?
[15:41:49] <anonimasu> yes
[15:41:58] <anonimasu> one cable is not, and it's not connected for testing
[15:41:59] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Are they grounded on both ends?
[15:42:04] <anonimasu> no
[15:42:39] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Well, it sounds like EMI/RFI is getting in from somewhere. You might check to see what isn't shielded/isolated.
[15:42:53] <Connor> BTW Guys, I had issue with my E-Stop tripping on it's own a while back? I figured out the issue... the opto-coupler was bad.. and I even know HOW it went bad.
[15:43:15] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Is the ignitiion relay shielded/isolated from everything else?
[15:43:31] <anonimasu> it sits on a optoisolated output
[15:43:43] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Is it shielded?
[15:43:52] <anonimasu> tho that single cable is not shielded...
[15:44:03] <Connor> I had used 2 cable clamps with screws and screwed it into screw holes in the side of my PSU (which had them tapped for said screws).. and everything worked fine...
[15:44:05] <Jymmm> anonimasu: I mean the relay itself
[15:44:12] <anonimasu> yes
[15:44:19] <Connor> but, I took my machine to another site and plugged it up and tripped the circuit breaker..
[15:44:21] <anonimasu> and there sits a diode on the relay...
[15:44:44] <Jymmm> anonimasu: so it's enclosed in an aluminum box of it's own away from the rest of the elecronics?
[15:44:45] <anonimasu> to protect from back emf from it..
[15:44:50] <anonimasu> yes
[15:44:52] <anonimasu> it's inside the plasma
[15:45:11] <pcw_home> can you tell me what cards you have and what they are connected to?
[15:45:21] <Connor> come to find out.. one of those screws went all the way in and touched the far end of the fuse! Creating a dead short.. didn't trip in my house because the socket I had it plugged into doesn't have the center prong grounded..
[15:45:27] <Jymmm> anonimasu: Ok, well check for shielding from other sources would be my best guess.
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[15:45:57] <Connor> and at some point.. I used the PSU case as a "ground" when testing stuff with the parport inputs.
[15:45:58] <anonimasu> I have a 7i43 connected to the pc
[15:46:06] <Connor> hence.. the blown opto-coupler.
[15:46:31] <anonimasu> then I have a 7i34 for the steppers and the input from the thcad(not connected now9
[15:46:52] <anonimasu> and I have a 7i37com
[15:47:05] <anonimasu> they all sit inside a big metal box
[15:47:12] <anonimasu> with a gigantic ground plane beneath everything
[15:47:59] <pcw_home> Are the step drives in the same enclosure?
[15:48:17] <anonimasu> yes
[15:48:32] <anonimasu> motor wires are connected from there with shielded cable all the way out
[15:48:46] <anonimasu> and the shield connects to the groundplane
[15:48:48] <anonimasu> inside the case
[15:51:51] <pcw_home> Any wiring to the plasma power supply should probably be bypassed to frame ground with a 1000 or 2000 PF capacitor
[15:51:53] <pcw_home> What you dont want is HF noise from torch start getting to ground through the 7I43 cable.
[15:52:21] <anonimasu> the plasma and the 7i37 is 2 meters apart also
[15:52:52] <Jymmm> Longer cables act like antennas
[15:53:03] <pcw_home> but all wires will conduct common m ode HF noise
[15:53:15] <ssi_> anonimasu: what are you using for THC?
[15:53:23] <anonimasu> the mesa thcad board
[15:53:24] <anonimasu> but it
[15:53:28] <anonimasu> 's not connected for testing
[15:53:38] <Jymmm> THC FTW!!!
[15:53:40] <pcw_home> so you want to filter this at the entrance to you electrical box
[15:53:50] <pcw_home> your
[15:54:04] <anonimasu> so, I should stick cap's on the torch start stuff?
[15:55:19] <anonimasu> what about the motor wires?
[15:55:21] <pcw_home> Are you wire shields grounded at your electrical box end (and open at the CNC,plasma end) ?
[15:55:26] <anonimasu> yes
[15:55:44] <anonimasu> the torch start wire is not shielded though, im gonna switch it to a shielded one tomorrow
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[15:56:24] <pcw_home> That one should definately have a bypass to frame ground
[15:56:39] <anonimasu> so a cap between that one and the ground...
[15:57:13] <pcw_home> I think its risky to bypass (even with 1000 PF) the step driver leads
[15:57:39] <pcw_home> yes _frame_ ground
[15:57:48] <anonimasu> that is my groundplane inside the box right
[15:57:49] <anonimasu> ?
[15:58:06] <pcw_home> Yes
[15:58:10] <anonimasu> what about the step/dir wires, is that a better option?
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[16:00:00] <pcw_home> I doubt they would get much induced noise (the step drive will normally have an isolated input)
[16:02:04] <pcw_home> I suspect somehow there is a HF ground path though the 7I43 (and this generates noise on the EPP cable causing the following error)
[16:02:45] <pcw_home> s/though/through/
[16:04:26] <pcw_home> This _might_ be improved by a short wire from the 7I43 ground (say the terminal block) to the frame ground
[16:04:49] <anonimasu> the epp cable is not shielded it's the default ribbon one
[16:05:03] <anonimasu> maybe I should wrap it in tinfoil....
[16:05:08] <anonimasu> and put heatshrink around
[16:05:39] <anonimasu> and the computer is a 0.25 meter away from the case
[16:05:51] <Jymmm> You have a ribbon cable going from the PC to the mesa?
[16:05:55] <anonimasu> yes
[16:06:23] <Jymmm> Um, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
[16:06:26] <pcw_home> I don't think that would help as much as grounding the 7I43 to bypass and induced currents around the cable
[16:06:33] <Jymmm> bad anonimasu! bad bad bad!
[16:06:40] <anonimasu> huh? it's the way it's designed
[16:07:08] * skunkworks hates grounding issues
[16:07:21] <anonimasu> so, shielded cables for * that goes anywhere
[16:07:47] <anonimasu> and 1000pf
[16:07:48] <Jymmm> anonimasu: ppl use these... http://images.bizrate.com/resize?sq=240&uid=686101962
[16:08:01] <Jymmm> then a shielded cable
[16:08:02] <anonimasu> /2000pf from anything from the plasma to the controller
[16:08:16] <anonimasu> and wire up the mesa boards to frame ground also
[16:08:40] <anonimasu> Jymmm: will order one and try
[16:08:43] <pcw_home> Please listen, it not magnetically induced noise on the cable so the shield in you box is useless
[16:10:22] <Jymmm> pcw_home: He has an 18" ribbon cable, I'd suspect that's the first and main issue and the cheapest fix too
[16:11:10] <pcw_home> its most likely HF ground return noise generating a potential along the cable so grounding the 7I43 to your shield ground will make a bigger difference
[16:11:44] <Jymmm> ground loop?
[16:11:51] <Jymmm> I hate those.
[16:12:02] <pcw_home> Yes A HF one
[16:12:47] <pcw_home> If you have nearby HF currents a shielded cable will help, but this is not that situation
[16:13:12] <skunkworks> pcw_home: now that we are talking grounding. I have a 7i33 and a 7i47. right now the computer case is grounded to the main grounding buss. should I also run a ground to each board? And what on the board should I connect it to?
[16:13:30] <anonimasu> I am gonna try that tomorrow or after dinner and we will see if it improves the situation
[16:15:07] <skunkworks> *7i48 (6 axis analog_
[16:15:19] <Jymmm> pcw_home: I still suspect the HF produced at ignition + 18" paraport ribbon cable == bad juju more than anything else imo.
[16:16:05] <Jymmm> pcw_home: There may be a gnd loop too, but HF is a bitch on such a tiny signal lines
[16:16:33] <Paragon39> Would a ferrite core help?
[16:16:52] <pcw_home> The normal daughter cards are pretty well grounded (25 wires if you include power) So I would not worry
[16:16:53] <pcw_home> the problem with the 7I43 is that is its on a long cable to the PC so if you have something nasty like a HF start torch
[16:16:55] <pcw_home> and you have a HF ground loop you can induce enough voltage across the cable to interfere with the EPP signals
[16:17:08] <Jymmm> A faraday cage maybe =)
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[16:17:49] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Right, but exposed unshieded ribbon cable is just a "hit me" sign on forehead
[16:18:06] <skunkworks> pcw_home: thanks!
[16:18:15] <pcw_home> jymmm I have looked this exact situation before it simply is not a cable problem other that a ground loop
[16:18:23] <anonimasu> pcw_home: thanks! I'll try all this and get back
[16:18:24] <anonimasu> :)
[16:19:02] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Wel, an easy test it to wrap the ribbon cable with foil
[16:19:10] <Paragon39> Fella's got that photo of the output from LM324 I can see your busy right now.. so when you have a chance... I am using a 10:1 ration now so 367mVpp in is showing about 3.7Vpp on scope which I think is correct. But the wave form is flat at the bottom so it only seems to be showing half the wave.
[16:19:12] <Paragon39> https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B53oJoJXbpkCNmUxZmE4OGUtMmQ3MC00ZjU1LTlkOGMtYmM4ZjQzZDY4MDcy&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
[16:19:37] <pcw_home> a shield may help if it reduces the cable ground inductance (but it would need to be grounded at both ends)
[16:20:00] <Jymmm> pcw_home: I mean just acting as an RF shield
[16:20:38] <Jymmm> against the ignition hf
[16:21:12] <pcw_home> paragon, looks like you dont have it biased 1/2 way up
[16:23:20] <Paragon39> pcw_home: How do you mean? I connected the +out of the function gen to the +in opamp the neg of function generator to the bias point (2.5v) is this the correct way to wire the ac inputs?
[16:24:36] <pcw_home> Probably need a capacitor in series with your function generator or you will ground your 2.5V point
[16:25:26] <Paragon39> cap on the + side?
[16:26:08] <Paragon39> ie + input? BTW this is setup as a non inverting opamp
[16:27:13] <lost1nsp4c3> any of you guys have recommendations of the good an bad on stepper motors uni-polar or bi-polar and drivers? like i know gecko is good but a tad pricey any kit recommendations? some info i could go read up on
[16:27:49] <cradek> bipolar is always superior
[16:27:49] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: Are you UK or US based?
[16:28:09] <lost1nsp4c3> canada based so i chose us =P
[16:28:15] <pcw_home> Is your function generator floating? if not you should connect its ground to your op amp ground and use a capacitor in series with the function generators output
[16:29:04] <lost1nsp4c3> cradek, interesting =)
[16:29:07] * anonimasu sighs
[16:29:08] <anonimasu> the work never ends, re-scraping gib's seems like my weekend project
[16:29:54] * jdhNC gives anonimasu a hand
[16:30:05] <Paragon39> pcw_home: It's not floating... Put a cap on both outputs? What value you suggest?
[16:30:10] <archivist> lost1nsp4c3, a good proportion of unipolar motors can be run bipolar too
[16:30:15] <lost1nsp4c3> i was once told that high RPM on say 400 oz steppers make them lose more holding torque then lower 280 oz but I thought that depended on how the motor was made?? is this a true fact or just fiction?
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[16:31:07] <lost1nsp4c3> i have some pretty old and crappy steppers which i'm guessing are in the 60~140oz range with some very old mechatronics driver boards
[16:31:28] <lost1nsp4c3> max is like 18volts the boards can handle and they are very slow I'm looking into changing them
[16:31:52] <lost1nsp4c3> as well as the motors....looked at some geckodrives some probotix and some hobbycnc not to sure which I wanna go for
[16:32:08] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: I use Motion Control MSD542 stepper controllers and can recommned them. They are a Chinese badged product and are around $50-60 in the US.
[16:32:44] <lost1nsp4c3> Paragon39, good opto iso or rf isod?
[16:32:51] <lost1nsp4c3> what am i saying i'll just google it lol
[16:33:20] <Paragon39> They have opto iso inputs.
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[16:34:23] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: I was trying to find the link to the us site... Someone gave it me on here the other day, cant remember who though :-(
[16:35:03] <lost1nsp4c3> when they specify 4.2amps max they mean per phase or if say you are holding down 2 phases at onces it's 2.6amp each phase? it is total power or per phase power?
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[16:36:52] <Paragon39> I think that is total max current draw the driver can deliver.
[16:37:27] <jthornton> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Stepper_Formulas
[16:37:32] <lost1nsp4c3> and that's probably not rms i guess
[16:38:33] <lost1nsp4c3> my issue right now is that it's a 10tpi thread on my axis
[16:38:54] <lost1nsp4c3> and with the crappy motors and driver i'm achieving a whopping 7ipm max!
[16:39:28] <lost1nsp4c3> i'm sure with a better set of motors and drivers I could make that faster
[16:39:54] <archivist> go for servo
[16:40:24] <Paragon39> I am driving nema23 motors that are rated 5.46v 2.1A per phase, holding torque = 3Nm http://www.motioncontrolproducts.com/motors/hybrid-nema-23-stepper-motors.php?cat=1
[16:41:14] <lost1nsp4c3> archivist, a tad pricey no?
[16:41:43] <archivist> depends, you can make the electronics
[16:42:33] <lost1nsp4c3> i can see the benefits of servos of knowing if you made the increment or not
[16:42:35] <lost1nsp4c3> and the speed
[16:44:06] <lost1nsp4c3> Paragon39, off hand would you know the TPI you have and how many inch/min?
[16:44:08] <Paragon39> They sound nicer too ;-)
[16:44:12] <lost1nsp4c3> Paragon39, lol
[16:44:38] <lost1nsp4c3> but holding torque wise?
[16:46:47] <Paragon39> I have a small Denford Mill and the motors mentioned are more than enough ie they are double stacked compared to the old sing stacked motors i replaced. From memory the leadscrew is 4mm pitch and the gearing is 4:1 ie 4 rev motor to one rev leadscrew.
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[16:49:52] <lost1nsp4c3> Paragon39, and do you remember your max travel speed?
[16:51:40] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: Holding torque.. The motors are rated at 3Nm or 424.83579683 [oz·in] * 4 = 1,699.34318734 [oz·in] If my calculations are correct. Put it this way on one occassion the table traveled to it's limits and the motor kept spinning, it managed to free itself from two grub screws and locktite!
[16:52:27] <lost1nsp4c3> lol
[16:54:03] <Paragon39> I am running at 500mm / min the limiting factor is I am still using the paraport for step/dir so i beleive I could push these further with 7i43 when it's wired up.
[16:55:16] <Paragon39> Actually I think it's faster than that, thinking about it...
[16:55:45] <lost1nsp4c3> that's like 20inch a minutes almost
[16:56:25] <lost1nsp4c3> and you need i think 6 turns x 4 motor revs to give you an inch correct?
[16:57:25] <lost1nsp4c3> altho servos do sound better and seem like the option to go on many things....the price is insane for any controllers!
[16:57:36] <Paragon39> I generally work in metric ;-) uk based....
[16:58:14] <lost1nsp4c3> Paragon39, i'm looking at the 7I43 it's an FPGA based I/O card so someone developped a firmware you upload your gcode in memory via usb or something and it spews out the info much faster then any parport can correct?
[16:58:26] <lost1nsp4c3> or maybe via sdcard or whatever =)
[16:58:50] <Paragon39> EMC2 loads the firmware via the paraport.
[16:59:38] <lost1nsp4c3> ahh ok
[16:59:59] <lost1nsp4c3> but then what how do you get beyond the parport bottleneck
[17:00:08] <lost1nsp4c3> does it load gcode via usb or sdcard or?!?!
[17:00:21] <Paragon39> No,
[17:01:01] <Paragon39> The gcode is loaded into EMC2 which then establishes a connection with the 7i43 via the paraport.
[17:01:32] <lost1nsp4c3> ok but how does the 7i43 eliminate the bottleneck?
[17:01:51] <lost1nsp4c3> instead of pulses per dir and step
[17:02:12] <lost1nsp4c3> it sends data via parport
[17:02:13] <lost1nsp4c3> ??
[17:02:34] <Paragon39> It will then send commanded positions via the paraport to the 7i43 and EMC2 receives position information and other I/O functions via the paraport from the 7i43.
[17:02:37] <lost1nsp4c3> sorry for all the questions lol
[17:03:42] <lost1nsp4c3> so basicly it's sending coordinates in an 8 bit format and the firmware on the 7i43 translates that into pulse for step and holds the dir
[17:04:47] <Paragon39> The 7i43 sends the step / dir or PWM to the controller. It recieves position information from the servo encoders and relates this back to EMC2 via the paraport. The 7i43 has a much higher bandwidth than the paraport for sending step / dir and PWM etc.
[17:06:45] <lost1nsp4c3> so like i said basicly you send a few pulses in an 8 bit format to give coordinates which the FPGA transforms into STEP pulse which it can do much faster then the parport can
[17:06:49] <lost1nsp4c3> ?
[17:07:53] <lost1nsp4c3> because as i understand it the parport limit is one pin is pulled up or down to set direction
[17:07:59] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: I am not an authority with the intricacies of the format sent (8bit or 16bit?) but in a nutshell that's how I understand it! It releaves EMC2 of the overhead of generating all those steps etc also it has many more i/o's
[17:08:02] <lost1nsp4c3> while the other pin pulsates the number of steps
[17:08:21] <lost1nsp4c3> and parports are pretty slow at doing on/off/on/off lol
[17:08:49] <Paragon39> Correct!
[17:08:50] <lost1nsp4c3> well i'm gonna look at us dealers for motion control see what i can find
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[17:09:12] <Paragon39> Sorry I cant find the US link!
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[17:10:13] <lost1nsp4c3> you've given me plenty of interesting info to look up
[17:10:24] <lost1nsp4c3> so please if anything i'm sorry for picking your brain =)
[17:10:39] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: Check out this link for hardware comparability etc... http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
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[17:11:37] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: Not a problem... It's good to give back as I am usually the one doing the picking :-)
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[17:12:17] <lost1nsp4c3> i had forgotten about xylotex
[17:12:25] <lost1nsp4c3> damn expensive
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[17:14:32] <lost1nsp4c3> i wonder what the custom fees would be to order from uk
[17:15:11] <IchGuckLive> usely its 15 %
[17:15:19] <IchGuckLive> to europe
[17:15:51] <IchGuckLive> 150 Euros Free per month
[17:16:04] <Paragon39> lost1nsp4c3: If your starting out, just play with paraport even with the limitations mentioned it does a great job. I still use it for my three axis mill although I am in the process of plugging in the 7i43. But the reason for this is more to do with having a cnc lathe that has a tool changer that I wish to hookup to EMC2 and rather than keep plugging cables in and out of the parport I just...
[17:16:06] <Paragon39> ...hook up the Mill and Lathe to the 7i43.
[17:16:57] <Paragon39> plus the vat goes on top of that!
[17:17:07] <Paragon39> @ 20%
[17:17:15] <lost1nsp4c3> eek
[17:17:24] <lost1nsp4c3> right now i'd like to play with my new diy cnc
[17:17:24] <IchGuckLive> lost1nsp4c3: where are you from
[17:17:33] <lost1nsp4c3> but with the motors and boards it's pretty slow and crappy
[17:17:35] <IchGuckLive> country
[17:17:38] <lost1nsp4c3> canada
[17:17:59] <Paragon39> 15% duty (import) 20% vat (tax) :-(
[17:18:32] <IchGuckLive> there are Resellers in the USA for mesacards
[17:19:55] <lost1nsp4c3> IchGuckLive, oh we were talking about motion control
[17:20:56] <Paragon39> IchGuckLive: Did'nt no you could get messa cards in the UK? I ordered mine from stateside.
[17:21:04] <IchGuckLive> im also around with AC Brushless Servo controler
[17:21:16] <IchGuckLive> my Encoder is broken O.o
[17:22:25] <Paragon39> Right... off to play some more op-amp madness!
[17:23:13] <IchGuckLive> im on my pedant with the aduino
[17:24:56] <ssi_> Paragon39: get that decoupling cap in place and I think you'll be ok
[17:25:34] <Paragon39> Just did that and have nothing now! What value cap would you recommend?
[17:25:45] <ssi_> what size did you use?
[17:25:57] <pcw_home> anonimasu: forgot to say paragons suggestion of a ferrite bead is also good for all wires coming into your electronic enclosure
[17:26:06] <ssi_> also, you have a bias network attached to the + input, yes?
[17:26:12] <ssi_> R to Vcc, R to ground?
[17:26:16] <ssi_> and what are the values of R/
[17:28:16] <Paragon39> ssi: the bias is connected to - invert input of the opamp R=1k
[17:28:41] <ssi_> not the feedback, the 2.5V bias
[17:29:25] <ssi_> your input cap along with your bias network forms a high-pass filter
[17:29:43] <ssi_> you need to select values such that your cutoff point is below the frequency of your input signal
[17:31:19] <Paragon39> ssi_: I think I need to draw a picture of how I have wired this up because I am getting a little confused :-0
[17:32:22] <Paragon39> give me a mo and I'll post a pick.. You never know you may get a good laugh out of it ;-)
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[17:37:28] <IchGuckLive> LOL
[17:43:09] <Paragon39> OK ready? ;-)
[17:43:11] <Paragon39> https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B53oJoJXbpkCYWZiYzI4ZWUtNmE3YS00ZmNmLThkOTUtOTkzNjE4OTA0Mzhl&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
[17:43:36] <Paragon39> be kind!
[17:44:03] <awallin> umm what do you want to do? do you know the f-gen output is floating?
[17:44:15] <IchGuckLive> tomorrow relese of Natty Narwha
[17:44:23] <IchGuckLive> ubuntu 11.04
[17:44:43] <Paragon39> awallin: I dont think the f-gen is floating as it is plugged into the mains.
[17:45:18] <Paragon39> awallin: I have a small ac sine wave that I want to amplify.
[17:46:26] <awallin> Paragon39: ok. can the source be ac-coupled? then you wouldn't need that fgen "-" connection which looks strange
[17:47:01] <awallin> Paragon39: and do you need it to work from a single +5V supply?
[17:47:02] <Connor> IchGuckLive: On the open source pendant.. Was going to use a ATMeg328 with the Arduino Bootloader
[17:47:38] <IchGuckLive> agree
[17:47:51] <IchGuckLive> Connor: where are you from ?
[17:47:58] <Connor> Knoxville, TN
[17:48:08] <IchGuckLive> USA
[17:48:12] <Connor> yea
[17:49:09] <Paragon39> It is from a single 5v supply as I am using an lm324 (it does not have dual inputs). RE ac-coupled could you explain a little more..
[17:49:12] <IchGuckLive> Connor: the case is the problem cause there are so many different standards ofer the World it wont fit in all continentsd
[17:50:32] <Connor> Well.. Hopefully, if done correctly.. I can setup a store or something that can carry the common parts.
[17:50:45] <Connor> The board.. will be small.
[17:50:54] <awallin> Paragon39: a capacitor at the input will let the sine-wave through, but not DC. http://i.cmpnet.com/planetanalog/2007/11/C0248-Figure1.gif that de-couples the DC-level of the source from the dc-level of the opamp input
[17:51:08] <Connor> That way, they can use what ever case they want.
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[17:51:28] <Connor> Just need to start somewhere.
[17:51:38] <IchGuckLive> Connor: agree
[17:51:59] <IchGuckLive> 100puls/rev Jog weel
[17:52:14] <IchGuckLive> Connor: about 7 Eur
[17:52:19] <Paragon39> awallin: Oh ok dc-blocking cap. Will this the allow me to remove the - f-gen lead?
[17:52:25] <ssi_> yeah I'm not sure what you're doing with the - f-gen lead
[17:52:32] <ssi_> also not sure why your 1K resistor network is on the - input
[17:52:38] <Connor> link ?
[17:52:47] <ssi_> that should be on your + input, to set the bias point of the signal
[17:52:48] <IchGuckLive> Connor: 320x240 display
[17:53:20] <ssi_> basically, if you have your dc blocking cap, and then the 1k resistors to vcc and gnd, that sets the dc bias point of your input signal at 2.5v
[17:53:26] <Paragon39> ssi_: I found the circuit on the web so it probably is incorrect!
[17:53:44] <IchGuckLive> Connor: http://cgi.ebay.de/Optischer-Encoder-rotierend-Typ-HRPG-ASCA-54R-1-Stuck-/220726737428
[17:53:54] <awallin> Paragon39: yes, then I would put the fgen- to GND. the 1k's bias the dc-level to half-way between 0V and 5V, you need them somewhere if you want symmetric sine output from a single +5V source.
[17:54:10] <ssi_> Paragon39: what's your input frequency?
[17:54:17] <Connor> Oh. Those are small.. I was thinking of something a little different.. let me find the link.. brb
[17:54:24] <awallin> Paragon39: with a floating output fgen I think it would work as is (at least somehow)
[17:54:40] <Paragon39> Input freq currently around 630Hz
[17:54:41] <Connor> http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=30
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[17:55:52] <Connor> but, again, it's open source.. if done correctly.. they can use what ever they want..
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[17:56:14] <Paragon39> awallin: Arr that maybe the reason for the circuit ie it was designed for a floating input maybe...
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[17:57:15] <Paragon39> OK, I try your suggestions and get back with outcome... Thanks Guys... Over and Out!
[17:57:22] <ssi_> hang on I'm putting you up a picture
[17:57:35] <awallin> Paragon39: if you have something like this it might work :) http://www.testequipmentconnection.com/images/products/Agilent-HP_33210A.JPG
[17:57:45] <IchGuckLive> Connor: sorry lost connection big thunderstorm here in Germany
[17:58:06] <Connor> Oh. Those are small.. I was thinking of something a little different.. let me find the link.. brb
[17:58:09] <Connor> Oh. Those are small.. I was thinking of something a little different.. let me find the link.. brb
[17:58:15] <Connor> but, again, it's open source.. if done correctly.. they can use what ever they want..
[17:58:22] <Connor> http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=15&products_id=30
[17:58:35] <Paragon39> Right ... I have one of these http://www.accusrc.com/ccp4709-10mhz-dds-function-generator-model-29-model-29.htm
[17:58:54] <ssi_> Paragon39: http://gallery.mac.com/tmbg/100049/IMG_1302/web.jpg?ver=13039270680001
[17:59:06] <IchGuckLive> Connor: with a Aruruni you can use the interrupt to read this opticel cheep encoders very easy the HEDS-5500 E14
[17:59:17] <IchGuckLive> Connor: im with you
[17:59:45] <awallin> ssi_: yep that looks ok, but it will be a hi-pass filter with C and R1 || R2
[17:59:51] <Connor> Yea.. I'll use a interrupt for the encoder.
[18:00:05] <Paragon39> ssi_: Thanks for the diagram... I'll rewire...
[18:00:16] <Connor> I plan on having 12-position rotary switches for axis selection and mode selection.. done with a resistor ladder into 2 analog ports.
[18:00:17] <IchGuckLive> Connor: so the hole part here is under 65 Dollars
[18:00:41] <ssi_> awallin: ya, I'm calcing values for C and R1/2 for his 630hz signal now
[18:01:26] <IchGuckLive> Connor: why not switches ?
[18:01:54] <Connor> Not sure about a display.. I have a 4x20 that looks good... anything more will take way too much I/O from a Arduino and need it's own micro for just the display.
[18:02:28] <IchGuckLive> Connor: there are 4Bit 320x240
[18:03:13] <Connor> I dunno.. I like the design.. I was thinking the Jog wheel, 2 rotary, 4 soft buttons, 2 enable buttons. call it done. No need to have a huge button mask printed up.
[18:03:15] <IchGuckLive> Connor: http://www.franksworkshop.com.au/CNC/LathePendant/LathePendant.htm
[18:03:19] <Connor> or have to lay out a matrix.
[18:03:38] <Connor> Yup. that's the one I was thinking of modeling.
[18:03:42] <ssi_> k try R1 = R2 = 1K
[18:03:47] <ssi_> and C = 1uF
[18:03:56] <ssi_> looks like that'll give you a cutoff of 318hz
[18:04:02] <Connor> Except, he used HID vs a arduino.
[18:04:05] <IchGuckLive> Connor: agree
[18:04:25] <IchGuckLive> but i prefer 6 switches for the main axis
[18:04:30] <Connor> I need to count up all the I/O and see if there is enough with a 328
[18:04:40] <Connor> IchGuckLive: Explain
[18:05:40] <Paragon39> ssi_: I'll give it a try.. :-)
[18:05:52] <IchGuckLive> on this version you got to switch the axis,Jog-limit,run and then move the axis
[18:06:07] <IchGuckLive> i prefer hit the switch and the axis move
[18:06:37] <IchGuckLive> center switch X/Y is x10
[18:06:38] <Connor> okay. So you want to hold down a button which represents the axis.. and use the jog control.
[18:06:43] <Connor> ?
[18:07:13] <IchGuckLive> no i only use switches for now
[18:08:01] <Connor> Guess I'm not understanding what your saying.
[18:08:18] <IchGuckLive> NP
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[18:09:08] <Connor> you just push a button and it moves so many units..
[18:09:09] <IchGuckLive> for this aplication you want is a Rasterd Jog weehl needet so you can exact position
[18:09:22] <IchGuckLive> Connor: you got it
[18:09:50] <IchGuckLive> the 4 tiny switches on the Display are the dividers in manuell mode
[18:09:55] <Connor> okay.. yea.. that's a different setup.. BUT.. could be done.
[18:10:15] <IchGuckLive> everything can be done
[18:10:19] <Connor> You could turn the Mode button a setting... then use the 4 soft buttons.
[18:10:31] <Connor> as your switches to control the movement.
[18:10:57] <IchGuckLive> i got a Menue Button
[18:11:31] <Connor> any pictures of what you have ?
[18:13:05] <IchGuckLive> no sorry not today
[18:14:47] <Connor> be back in a bit.. lunch
[18:14:52] <IchGuckLive> Connor: By for today need to Go
[18:14:56] <IchGuckLive> me to
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[18:21:09] <anonimasu> pcw_home: I kindof solved it
[18:21:18] <anonimasu> it's hf comming into the electronics from the relay control wires
[18:21:31] <anonimasu> tho only half the truth there's something else that needs sheielding and/or a cap
[18:21:36] <anonimasu> and ferrite beads..
[18:22:20] <ssi_> is it coupling through the relay from the load that's being switched?
[18:26:30] <anonimasu> yes
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[18:27:48] <anonimasu> how so solve that I dont know,
[18:27:54] <anonimasu> cap to ground I guess
[18:28:05] <anonimasu> and also, change wires to shielded ones...
[18:29:26] <alSMT> foil the one's you have
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[18:32:48] <JT-Shop> cutting at 90IPM with a 3/8 end mill is fun to watch :)
[18:33:08] <ssi_> haha
[18:33:49] <anonimasu> hehe :]
[18:33:55] <anonimasu> I cant wait to try my spindle
[18:33:56] <ssi_> anonimasu: what kind of relay is it?
[18:33:57] <Jymmm> anonimasu: is the wire to the relay shielded twisted pair?
[18:34:03] <anonimasu> no, the new one is
[18:34:06] <anonimasu> it's a schritt relay
[18:34:17] <Jymmm> anonimasu: and its twisted pair?
[18:34:21] <anonimasu> yes
[18:34:28] <anonimasu> the one to replace the old one with
[18:34:30] <anonimasu> tomorrow
[18:34:50] <Jymmm> oh, but the current one is not twisted or shielded?
[18:34:53] <anonimasu> no
[18:34:55] <anonimasu> neither
[18:35:19] <Jymmm> ok, yeah, just try the new cabling tomorrow.
[18:36:21] <Jymmm> I used to work in missile control boar ds and when they twisted the wrong pair, it pick up EMI like crazy.
[18:36:30] <anonimasu> tho it still errors even without relay connected
[18:36:42] <anonimasu> but as long as it's within ignition distance that dosent error out the boarsd
[18:36:44] <anonimasu> boards
[18:36:44] <Jymmm> did you foil the ribbon cable?
[18:37:04] <anonimasu> yes
[18:37:25] * anonimasu is looking at scraping videos
[18:37:37] <anonimasu> looks like I have my work cut out
[18:37:50] <Jymmm> Well if the wire disconnected and within range and errors, seems you've isolated at least one cause
[18:38:06] <ssi_> whatcha gonna scrap
[18:38:07] <ssi_> e
[18:38:11] <anonimasu> my big mill
[18:38:12] <Paragon39> OK.. the op amp is looking much better 166mVpp in around 1.6Vpp sinusoidal out. But it does not work with the capacitor in place?
[18:38:24] <anonimasu> the gib in one of the ways are banana shaped..
[18:38:27] <ssi_> I want to recondition my old clausing
[18:38:33] <ssi_> and it'll likely take scraping
[18:38:35] <ssi_> and that's daunting
[18:38:54] <anonimasu> my y axis jerks when I reverse, because of stiction/friction fromt he gib moving I think
[18:39:21] <anonimasu> and I think that the only solution is to scrape a new one...
[18:39:28] <ssi_> joy
[18:39:30] <Jymmm> anonimasu: for shits and giggles.... wrap your exisitng wire around a 1/2" wooden dowel with 5 or 6 tight turns and see what happens.
[18:39:31] <anonimasu> and if that dosent work remove some material from the ways to make them flat and paralell
[18:39:56] <Jymmm> anonimasu: just the end that connects to the relay
[18:40:04] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:40:11] <anonimasu> right now it works, but it sticks when I zero my y axis
[18:40:53] <anonimasu> (with the gib tightened)
[18:40:55] <ssi_> one of these days I need to try converting my plasma table over to EMC
[18:41:08] <anonimasu> it seems like hell, to fix...
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[18:41:43] <anonimasu> but screws and all are damn accurate, just the y axis doing this..
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[18:41:54] <frallzor> lo boys
[18:41:57] <ssi_> what kind of mill is it
[18:42:06] <anonimasu> abene vhf3
[18:42:19] <anonimasu> http://www.zohrabhovsepian.com/thumbs/lrg-2-113451_s090710-094610.jpg
[18:42:25] <anonimasu> but with servos and glass scales
[18:42:46] <frallzor> how hard is it to get emc going with 5-6 axis in reality? =)
[18:42:55] <ssi_> weird
[18:43:25] <ssi_> frallzor: guess it depends on the kinematics ;)
[18:43:57] <frallzor> simple XYZ and rotating tool and tilt
[18:43:58] <archivist> frallzor, depends what you mean, mine is 5 no special kinematics
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[18:44:08] <anonimasu> the y axis jerk eats up my tolerances :S
[18:44:10] <ssi_> XYZAB is pretty straightforward
[18:44:12] <frallzor> *rotating spindle even
[18:44:23] <frallzor> great great
[18:44:38] <frallzor> gonna make myself a simple modelmaker for clay =)
[18:44:50] <anonimasu> ssi_: http://www.industritorget.se/pics/kop/upload/20611_1386_1_s.jpg better image
[18:44:51] <archivist> probably means hand drawn gcode though
[18:44:58] <anonimasu> that's the same machine as mine
[18:45:02] <ssi_> yea cam's always the hard part for complex machines
[18:45:07] <ssi_> hell, even for lathe work, cam is the sticky bit
[18:45:28] <ssi_> anonimasu: I'm having a hard time figuring out what's going on with the spindle
[18:45:29] <frallzor> gonna learn my mastercam properly and then Im set!
[18:45:56] <anonimasu> ssi_: it can tili 90 deg :)
[18:46:04] <ssi_> yea that's what it looks like
[18:46:10] <anonimasu> not powered tho
[18:46:16] <ssi_> that's unfortunate
[18:46:21] <ssi_> 5axis that thing!
[18:46:22] <ssi_> :D
[18:46:30] <anonimasu> haha, i have a too nice control to swap right now
[18:46:32] <ssi_> that table looks pretty big
[18:47:48] <anonimasu> spec is like 400kg max on table
[18:49:21] <anonimasu> just the damn y axis that's messing
[18:49:34] <ssi_> have you done scraping work before?
[18:49:54] <anonimasu> no
[18:50:01] <ssi_> Paragon39: sry I just saw what you posted... what's going on with it now?
[18:50:28] <anonimasu> tho I do own the machine tool reconditioning book
[18:50:29] <anonimasu> :)
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[18:50:40] <ssi_> well then you're already ahead of me!
[18:50:47] <ssi_> that book is spendy :(
[18:51:02] <alSMT> does it stick every where? or just one end or the other
[18:51:38] <Jymmm> you need magnetic floating rails!!!
[18:52:31] <Jymmm> you need electro-magnetic levitation rails!!!
[18:53:29] <anonimasu> I expected to learn how to scrape someday when I grew old
[18:56:54] <ssi_> I would love to take one of Forrest Addy's scraping workshops
[18:57:47] <ssi_> I wish he wasn't way over on the wrong coast :(
[18:58:27] <anonimasu> hehe, atleast your in the right country
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[18:59:18] <ssi_> true, but it's a big country
[18:59:22] <ssi_> heh
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[18:59:35] <mrsunshine> hmm, what is the most effecive stirling configuration ...
[19:00:02] <anonimasu> it's not the most satisfying weekend im looking at scraping...
[19:00:08] <mrsunshine> i guess one with a displaser piston would be easier to get airtight and so, but the alpha style is alot easier to keep hot and cold side seperated =)
[19:00:27] <ssi_> like the McDLT
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[19:23:01] <mrsunshine> hmm, interesting, using ferrofluid as bearings? :)
[19:23:11] <mrsunshine> aparently it can be used to make pistons for stirling engines :P
[19:26:24] <mrsunshine> maybe a ferrofluid screw is the next big thing :P
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[19:33:32] * frallzor is having a blast sketching his modelmachine
[19:35:03] <andypugh> You can't do draft angles in SheetCAM, can you?
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[19:49:24] <JT-Shop> not that I know of
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[19:49:39] <JT-Shop> you can drill holes and cut 2-d about all
[19:50:13] <andypugh> I wonder if there is anything which will do what I want.
[19:50:30] <andypugh> ("What I want" includes not paying)
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[19:52:16] <anonimasu> andypugh: what about making a cut, then calling setting the tool radius smaller and smaller each z level...
[19:52:24] <anonimasu> err subroutine
[19:52:46] <mrsunshine> andypugh, heeks with waterline? :P
[19:53:08] <andypugh> anonimasu: Brilliant.
[19:53:20] <JT-Shop> andypugh: what do you want?
[19:54:05] <andypugh> I want to rout out a casting pattern.
[19:54:58] <mrsunshine> andypugh, buy tapered endmills =)
[19:55:01] <andypugh> anonimasu: Though you would have to increase the tool diameter to get more offset. But the idea is good.
[19:55:07] <mrsunshine> i did and i will never do casting patterns without it anymore =)
[19:55:17] <andypugh> I spent 2 days looking for tapered endmills and came up blank
[19:55:24] <mrsunshine> andypugh, ctctools.biz
[19:55:25] <mrsunshine> =)
[19:55:37] <andypugh> In the UK?
[19:55:41] <mrsunshine> nah china :P
[19:55:42] <andypugh> And cheap?
[19:55:47] <mrsunshine> quite cheap
[19:56:26] <mrsunshine> http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-590/3-FLUTE-HSS-AL/Detail
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[19:57:42] <mrsunshine> tho shipping time is somewhat "big", usaly takes about 2 weeks to sweden
[19:57:49] <andypugh> mrsunshine: Already in the cart :-)
[19:57:53] <mrsunshine> andypugh, =)
[19:58:21] <mrsunshine> bought alot of stuff from them, not that i know much about milling etc but it does it for me, as i can buy 10 - 20 end mills for the price of one in sweden :P
[19:58:25] <JT-Shop> andypugh: do you have a 3-d drawing of the part
[19:58:28] <andypugh> Now lets see how much I can spend making it "worth the postage"
[19:58:42] <mrsunshine> andypugh, postage goes up with the spending tho
[19:58:54] <mrsunshine> i guess they go for the weight of the package
[19:59:07] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Yes, I have a 3D model.
[19:59:36] <mrsunshine> but imo its soo worth it for casting patterns =)
[20:00:37] <andypugh> JT-Shop: http://imagebin.org/150304
[20:01:26] <JT-Shop> I saw that, if you have a 3-d model I can pipe it through onecnc for you
[20:01:46] <andypugh> :-)
[20:02:27] <andypugh> Though the taper bit is probably better as it will give a smooth finish.
[20:03:55] <andypugh> Though, having spent an age putting the draft angles on (Inventor has a nice tool for it, but it is also one of those "picky" tools.
[20:03:58] <mrsunshine> think im gonna throw another order to ctc soon, sine bar, boring head set and some new endmills =)
[20:04:23] <andypugh> Want to buy my spare boring head?
[20:04:40] <mrsunshine> andypugh, for how much and what would the postage be? :P
[20:05:01] <mrsunshine> and what is it? size etc .. and im sure its in frekin imperial ? :P
[20:05:11] <andypugh> Actually, you might want to fight JT-Shop for this one.
[20:05:13] <andypugh> v
[20:05:15] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wohlhaupter-Jig-Bore-boring-Facing-head-tool-/200601724281
[20:05:30] <micges> anyone know about this free cad: http://www.3ds.com/produc...oad-draftsight/ ?
[20:05:44] <mrsunshine> yeah imperial crap! :P
[20:06:09] <mrsunshine> micges, wtf is up with your link ? :)
[20:06:31] <micges> http://www.3ds.com/products/draftsight/download-draftsight/
[20:06:44] <micges> sorry someone shorted it ;P
[20:07:10] <cradek> When a user saves or
[20:07:10] <JT-Shop> up to $51
[20:07:10] <cradek> prints a document for the first time, they will be asked to activate the product within 30 days
[20:07:13] <cradek> using a valid email address and reactivate after six months and thereafter at 12-month
[20:07:16] <cradek> intervals. Users will need an Internet connection to download and activate.
[20:07:52] <andypugh> mrsunshine my spare is Metric, and similar to this one: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Wohlhaupter-UPA4-SK50-69871-z-B-Deckel-Frasmaschine-/380177205411
[20:08:40] <andypugh> That price is a _little_optimistic.
[20:08:51] <ssi_> that's a nice head
[20:08:59] <ssi_> the first one you linked... what shank is it?
[20:09:59] <andypugh> The baby UPA2 is on a Moore shank adaptor, but all UPA2 heads are actually No 2 Morse with a screw-in tang and/or a through slot.
[20:17:06] <frallzor> tools cost more than one realize
[20:18:14] <ssi_> oh I think most people who have bought them realize :)
[20:18:34] <ssi_> after I bought my first mill for $3000, I turned around and spent close to $7k just in basic tooling
[20:18:37] <frallzor> I thougt about what Ive spent today when I ordered more
[20:18:46] <frallzor> much more than Id ever imagined =P
[20:18:47] <ssi_> now that I have six machines, I think I have a nice house worth of tooling
[20:18:54] <ssi_> :(
[20:19:06] <frallzor> I keep breaking most too :P
[20:19:31] <frallzor> but hey, I press them to their limits and see what I can do!
[20:20:00] <ssi_> yeah, I was just crying over chipping teeth on a nice name-brand 3/4" solid carbide endmill :(
[20:20:36] <ssi_> I'm going to try to learn to grind endmills
[20:20:43] <ssi_> will start with my chinese HSS ones, don't worry ;)
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[20:22:18] <andypugh> My dad has a Universal Grinder. I am sure that would do a lovely job if we could figure out the pile of fixtures.
[20:22:43] <ssi_> I'd like to find a way to fixture endmills to sharpen them on my surface grinder
[20:22:54] <ssi_> I think I'll probably be limited to sharpening the ends only, but that'd be a pretty good start
[20:23:31] * frallzor is going to mill clay soon
[20:23:35] <frallzor> will be interesting
[20:24:55] <andypugh> You should be able to do the flutes too. Normally you have a sliding/rotating chuck (which is easy) and a point made from a scrap saw-blade that is held very close to the wheel. You run the flute along the pointer.
[20:25:32] <ssi_> hm interesting
[20:25:50] <ssi_> I could use one of my spin indexes for that actually
[20:25:54] <ssi_> if I move the retaining ring back
[20:26:06] <ssi_> I've seen people talk about using an air bearing for doing that, to avoid stiction
[20:26:13] <ssi_> but I always assumed they were somehow helically coupled
[20:26:24] <ssi_> it never occured to me to use the endmill as the helix
[20:26:25] <ssi_> :P
[20:26:29] <ssi_> <--- slow sometimes
[20:27:07] <anonimasu> cnc sickness
[20:27:31] <andypugh> One of those cheap eBay ER32 collet chucks with a straight shank would probably be a very good starting point.
[20:27:32] <ssi_> must be
[20:27:40] <anonimasu> I were envisioning a cnc controlled grinder to rotate the tools when moving...
[20:27:50] <mrsunshine> http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/296748529/TYPE_235_END_MILL_SHARPENER/showimage.html they dont look to complicated? :)
[20:27:58] <mrsunshine> so you just ride the bevel on that pin thingie ?
[20:28:31] <andypugh> Looks like it.
[20:28:32] <frallzor> http://www.ec21.com/product-details/VERTEX-Precision-Drill-Grinder-Sharpener--3757668.html this is the shit
[20:28:41] <frallzor> but for mills
[20:29:01] <ssi_> just a fancy drill doctor ;)
[20:29:43] <andypugh> Though, thinking about it, my gear-hobbing head and a Dremel is probably worth a try :-)
[20:29:58] <anonimasu> I have a grinder but I dont have the fixture for grinding endmills might be worth making one someday
[20:29:59] <ssi_> andypugh: I'll look tonight, but I'm pretty sure that I can get as much as 2" of sliding range on my phaseII 5C spin index
[20:30:12] <ssi_> that'd be enough to sharpen some short-flute endmills
[20:30:19] <ssi_> and that spin index is reasonably smooth
[20:30:29] <ssi_> my cheapycheap one isn't smooth at all
[20:31:03] <ssi_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5l_GpfUqCo
[20:31:06] <ssi_> that's the other way to do it
[20:31:09] <ssi_> the cnc sickness method :)
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[20:37:55] <mrsunshine> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfU1V1RurTw&feature=related now thats a "boring bar" :P
[20:38:39] <ssi_> holy crap
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[20:40:13] <andypugh> I need a fixed steady, but perhaps not that big.
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[20:41:02] <mrsunshine> oh well time to sleepy
[20:41:06] <mrsunshine> nn
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[21:26:39] <anonimasu> seems like 90% of scraping is being able to simply measure
[21:26:45] <anonimasu> the rest is elbow grease...
[21:27:00] <ssi_> haha yep
[21:27:06] <ssi_> spot and scrape
[21:27:08] <ssi_> spot and scrape
[21:27:21] <anonimasu> im stuck how to measure my box ways properly and what to use as datum..
[21:27:33] <anonimasu> actually the gib contact surfaces.
[21:27:50] <ssi_> that's where it gets sticky for me too
[21:27:59] <ssi_> I want to scrape in the compound on my big lathe as a start
[21:28:16] <anonimasu> I think for a start im gonna check them for paralelism to the outer edge of the box way..
[21:28:19] <ssi_> I think you want to have some kind of dovetail reference master
[21:28:34] <anonimasu> stick a indicator there(flat surface) slide it to see if theres taper
[21:28:37] <ssi_> hm box ways
[21:28:41] <ssi_> mayben won't apply to you then ;)
[21:28:57] <anonimasu> then if its' flat reference the other to the one that's _ok_
[21:29:21] <anonimasu> and scrape them into shape, make a new gib and happily mill molds for the rest of my life..
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[21:38:17] <andypugh> My mill has 2 V ways on the knee. I have no ide ahow they imagene that they can both touch at the same time.
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[22:04:32] <MOGLI> anyone uses D525MW intel board???
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[22:14:17] <andypugh> I think I have heard of a couple of people using it. ]
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