#emc | Logs for 2011-01-27

[00:00:07] <danimal_garage> it turns to a "d" (disabled) when i turn off emc2
[00:00:15] <JT-Shop> 5 down 9 to go... http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Shop%20Addition/P1010072.jpg
[00:00:22] <danimal_garage> and the motor is holding
[00:00:37] <JT-Shop> what kind of drive is it?
[00:01:01] <danimal_garage> pacific scientific pc3406ai
[00:01:27] <JT-Shop> I've not messed with them
[00:01:34] <danimal_garage> it's weird
[00:02:01] <danimal_garage> the motors have resolvers which go to the drive, then the drive has encoder outputs
[00:02:11] <danimal_garage> which seems to be working
[00:02:31] <danimal_garage> as if i move the shaft, the position in emc changes accordingly
[00:02:54] <JT-Shop> so you know the encoder is connected correctly
[00:02:54] <danimal_garage> you have to program these drives via serial port and a windows pc
[00:03:16] <danimal_garage> but they accept an analog 10v and will run in velocity mode
[00:03:47] <JT-Shop> now you just have to figure out if you programmed it correctly :)
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[00:04:14] <danimal_garage> it doesnt seem too hard to understand
[00:04:20] <JT-Shop> the manual?
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[00:04:51] <JT-Shop> looks like the velocity mode has several options
[00:04:53] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:05:02] <danimal_garage> ok i got it to move with the 5v
[00:05:10] <JT-Shop> that's good
[00:05:23] <danimal_garage> looks like it needs tuning now
[00:05:28] <JT-Shop> cool
[00:06:00] <danimal_garage> the drive has tuning parameters in the software
[00:06:02] <JT-Shop> after you get it up and running come on by and we can have a beer while we hang trusses
[00:06:15] <danimal_garage> what are you building??
[00:06:29] <danimal_garage> well it isnt fixed yet, it still doesnt move with emc
[00:06:50] <JT-Shop> my machine shop... adding 1000 sqft to my garage
[00:07:05] <JT-Shop> it is better if you know the drive will move
[00:07:33] <JT-Shop> it's all ready too small LOL
[00:08:33] <danimal_garage> lol
[00:08:38] <danimal_garage> how did your hardinge come out?
[00:09:32] <JT-Shop> good, since I spoke to you last I acquired a BP VMC that runs
[00:10:07] <danimal_garage> nice!
[00:10:16] <danimal_garage> enclosed or a knee mill?
[00:10:45] <JT-Shop> a Discovery 308 with an 8 station tool changer and completely enclosed
[00:11:19] <danimal_garage> nice
[00:11:25] <danimal_garage> are you going to emc it?
[00:11:43] <JT-Shop> if it ever dies yes
[00:12:41] <danimal_garage> cool
[00:13:03] <danimal_garage> my equipment has been working well, i've been busy running it
[00:13:08] <JT-Shop> 6k spindle is nice
[00:13:12] <JT-Shop> cool
[00:13:18] <danimal_garage> just bought some servos and drives for it
[00:13:27] <danimal_garage> for the mill i mean
[00:13:59] <danimal_garage> 6k is nice, that's what i bumped mine up to after i ditched the mechanical variable speed pulleys in the mill
[00:14:45] <JT-Shop> did you look at the photo?
[00:15:29] <danimal_garage> yea, looks impressive!
[00:15:45] <JT-Shop> did you see my one man truss crane LOL
[00:16:12] <danimal_garage> haha yea
[00:16:50] <JT-Shop> works pretty slick
[00:17:03] <danimal_garage> building it all yourself?
[00:17:44] <JT-Shop> yea
[00:18:12] <JT-Shop> I'll get my neighbor to come over for the last few trusses as they will be a PIA
[00:19:53] <JT-Shop> http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Shop%20Addition/?action=view&current=P1010074.jpg
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[00:20:31] <JT-Shop> I've not got anyone to try and pick the anvil up to see the weight stamped on the bottom hehe
[00:21:10] <danimal_garage> lol
[00:21:38] <JT-Shop> they all ask "how much does it weigh" I tell them it is stamped on the bottom lol
[00:22:44] <danimal_garage> lol
[00:23:11] <danimal_garage> i cant get this thing to stop moving
[00:23:29] <danimal_garage> it kinda hunts around
[00:24:01] <JT-Shop> you might have to tune the drives then tune EMC
[00:24:13] <JT-Shop> do the drives have an auto tune?
[00:24:17] <danimal_garage> thats what im trying to do
[00:24:44] <danimal_garage> you can select the motor from a list and i guess it's kinda "auto tuned", but it wont sit still
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[00:25:59] <JT-Shop> most drives I use in my business once you select the motor etc then you need to run the "auto tune" to get things correct for the inertia and stuff
[00:26:23] <andypugh> danimal_garage: short out the 0-10V input? It might be a high-impedence input and picking up the radio...
[00:27:02] <JT-Shop> danimal_garage: I hear the dinner bell, so don't be a stranger around here even if everything is running good drop by to say hi
[00:27:16] <danimal_garage> will do!
[00:27:27] <andypugh> Time I slept too.
[00:27:29] <danimal_garage> my mirc thing expired and i never got around to registering
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[00:27:43] <danimal_garage> then things got busy...
[00:27:52] <danimal_garage> have a good night
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[01:14:28] <danimal_garage> yay i got it to move
[01:14:31] <danimal_garage> time to tune
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[02:43:22] <danimal_garage> holy crappers, it still needs A LOT of tuning, but it's amazing how much faster this machine moves with servos
[02:43:32] <danimal_garage> even small servos
[02:43:57] <danimal_garage> wayyy faster than i need
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[02:47:33] <i_tarzan> faster compared to what?
[02:48:05] <danimal_garage> steppers
[02:57:32] <Tom_itx> what servos did you use?
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[02:58:37] <danimal_garage> pacific scientific
[02:58:50] <danimal_garage> trying to tune them but it isnt nearly as easy as my lathe was
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[03:00:07] <danimal_garage> it keeps overshooting
[03:00:47] <Tom_itx> i don't know about emc yet but can you adjust your decel ramps?
[03:00:54] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:01:03] <danimal_garage> on the drive anyways
[03:01:29] <danimal_garage> should i increase the decel rate?
[03:01:33] <Tom_itx> going from steppers to servo is a big step
[03:01:38] <Tom_itx> i would
[03:01:56] <danimal_garage> yea, the servos are probably a bit small for the machine too
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[03:03:13] <danimal_garage> i just set it at 7000rpm per sec
[03:03:20] <danimal_garage> it was at 3000
[03:03:49] <danimal_garage> better, but not perfect
[03:04:40] <Tom_itx> are there accel ramps too?
[03:04:49] <danimal_garage> 15k is definitely better
[03:04:50] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:04:57] <Tom_itx> you probably want to adjust those too even though it may not be showing up
[03:05:03] <danimal_garage> stops the machine rather abruptly
[03:05:23] <danimal_garage> ok, slower or faster?
[03:05:36] <Tom_itx> were the rates equal before?
[03:05:38] <danimal_garage> faster and let emc control it?
[03:05:47] <Tom_itx> i don't know
[03:05:50] <danimal_garage> yea, but the settings were not ideal for a cnc
[03:06:05] <danimal_garage> they came off a bread packaging machine or something
[03:06:08] <Tom_itx> does the servo have the torque the stepper had?
[03:06:32] <Tom_itx> it may need more time to accel if not
[03:06:36] <danimal_garage> steppers said 1300 oz/in on them
[03:06:59] <danimal_garage> servos are like 40 in/lbs
[03:07:10] <danimal_garage> definitely smaller
[03:07:29] <Tom_itx> inoz != inlb
[03:07:42] <danimal_garage> b640 oz in
[03:07:48] <danimal_garage> 640 oz/in
[03:07:56] <danimal_garage> but that's rms
[03:08:09] <danimal_garage> peak is closer to the steppers
[03:08:24] <Tom_itx> well, it may be close where it is if you increased the decel to 15k
[03:08:27] <danimal_garage> i'm not sure if the number on the steppers is peak though
[03:09:18] <danimal_garage> ok i increased the decel to 20k, and it jars the machine when it stops
[03:09:29] <Tom_itx> that's too much
[03:09:33] <Tom_itx> you'll break stuff
[03:09:39] <danimal_garage> right
[03:09:58] <danimal_garage> if i slow the accel in the ini, will that slow the decel as well?
[03:10:13] <Tom_itx> like i said, i haven't worked with emc yet
[03:10:17] <danimal_garage> oh thats right
[03:10:27] <danimal_garage> pretty sure it does
[03:10:29] <Tom_itx> i know a bit about cnc's though
[03:11:16] <danimal_garage> this machine is a shizuka an-s
[03:11:27] <danimal_garage> about the size of a bridgeport series 2
[03:13:19] <danimal_garage> i'm going to slow down the accel in emc2
[03:13:31] <danimal_garage> i think that will help it slow down
[03:14:10] <Tom_itx> if they decel too quick they could run hot too. check for that
[03:14:25] <Tom_itx> if they're marginally undersize
[03:14:31] <danimal_garage> i think my problem was that my emc controller was trying to move the machine faster than the drives would allow, so it would over correct
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[03:17:06] <danimal_garage> it's shaking a bit when it feeds now
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[03:39:42] <Emcrules_Laptop> danimal have you used hal scope to tune your pid loops. or are you open loop?
[03:41:40] <danimal_garage> i havent yet
[03:41:49] <danimal_garage> i was trying to get it at least somewhat close
[03:42:42] <Emcrules_Laptop> what gear ratio are you using on your servos? if any?
[03:42:59] <danimal_garage> none
[03:43:07] <danimal_garage> it's 5 revs per inch
[03:43:52] <Emcrules_Laptop> yeah I was just trying to understand available tourque on the screw. so its 40in/LB
[03:44:03] <danimal_garage> yea
[03:46:59] <Emcrules_Laptop> typical knee mill retro would use a 30in/lb motor with a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio. i use 30in/lb with a 3:1 ratio
[03:47:23] <Emcrules_Laptop> you might be undersized a bit
[03:47:31] <danimal_garage> so i need gear reduction?
[03:47:53] <Emcrules_Laptop> it will give you more torque and reduce the reflected inertia
[03:48:09] <danimal_garage> hmm
[03:48:17] <Emcrules_Laptop> i run my knee with a 7in/lb motor
[03:48:26] <Emcrules_Laptop> but 30:1 gear reduction
[03:48:44] <danimal_garage> any way to tune it to run till i can get around to doing that?
[03:48:59] <danimal_garage> wow
[03:49:15] <danimal_garage> what's your max feedrate?
[03:49:50] <Emcrules_Laptop> 10 in but its a z axis and i dont do alot of surfacing
[03:50:23] <Emcrules_Laptop> i am working on putting a proper sized motor on it now.
[03:51:24] <Emcrules_Laptop> but i get exelent performance out of my 30 in/lb motors and the gear reduction. 200 ipm easy
[03:52:35] <danimal_garage> hmm
[03:52:45] <danimal_garage> i'm hoping for at least 400
[03:53:08] <Emcrules_Laptop> I havent tried to go any faster
[03:53:14] <danimal_garage> if i go 2:1, i can still probably pull that off
[03:53:36] <danimal_garage> i use my machine for mass production so i need it to be fast
[03:56:41] <Emcrules_Laptop> mine sits in my garage so not so critical and I only have about 5 min worth of trying to tune pid loops. I get the sppeds I need with hardly any folowing error so im happy. Im sure with the right motor and gearing or just motor it should be no problem for you.
[03:57:35] <danimal_garage> my problem is i need to tune the drives as well as emc2
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[03:57:49] <danimal_garage> i don't know anything about tuning the drives
[03:58:44] <Emcrules_Laptop> I just autotune with motor disconected mechanically and the tune pid in emc when connected back up
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[03:59:23] <danimal_garage> mine doesnt have an auto tune button
[03:59:41] <danimal_garage> it has reccomended settings for the motor, and that seems to be about all i can find
[04:01:41] <Emcrules_Laptop> i would set them to the recommend settings and leave them and then try to tune pid in emc. what type of control are you using? velocity, torque etc
[04:02:48] <Emcrules_Laptop> is there a manual for the drives on the net?
[04:03:51] <danimal_garage> velocity
[04:03:59] <danimal_garage> yes
[04:04:19] <danimal_garage> but i think i just found a problem, probably the problem, the coupler is loose
[04:09:15] <danimal_garage> well that helped some but not completely
[04:11:03] <danimal_garage> well i gotta run, time for food
[04:11:12] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help, i'll have to work on it tomorrow
[04:11:49] <Emcrules_Laptop> no problem
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[11:43:50] <HDB10> Hi psha Just a quick Hi.....
[11:49:18] <psha> hi
[11:49:19] <the_wench> hello psha, you have a question?
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[11:52:49] <HDB10> SeeYa. H........,
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[13:00:27] <jared__> hi
[13:00:27] <the_wench> hello jared__, you have a question?
[13:16:16] <atmega> hi the_wench
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[13:24:40] <psha> hi the_wench
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[13:40:37] <awallin_> some people are having problems with the latest 10.04 live-cd complaining about no real-time kernel? anyone having the same problems?
[13:45:48] <skunkworks> not I
[13:47:47] <skunkworks> I remember there being issues with older hardware and acpi - there is also issues with more than 2 cores iirc
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[13:55:54] <skunkworks> I thought the latest rtai took care of the >2 core issue.. But I don't think anyone wants to try to build a new version. It is a pain. :)
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[14:02:50] <awallin_> these people were upgrading from 8.04, so it might be they have no RTAI kernel at all now...
[14:03:00] <awallin_> I advised that a fresh 10.04 install might be better
[14:03:18] <cradek> in-place upgrade just plain doesn't work
[14:03:28] <cradek> if that's what you're asking about, then your answer is right
[14:03:32] <skunkworks> yes
[14:03:35] <cradek> see the front page of the wiki
[14:03:42] <awallin_> right :)
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[14:32:10] <archivist> db
[14:32:11] <the_wench> http://www.wench.archivist.info/index.php?chan=%23emc to see any factoids (select channel if needed)
[14:33:04] <archivist> !tell user about building on ubuntu
[14:33:04] <the_wench> user http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Preparing_Ubuntu_to_compile_emc2
[14:35:17] <boelkmoeller3> !tell boelkmoeller3 about building on centos
[14:35:18] <the_wench> boelkmoeller3
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[14:39:45] <psha> the_wench: !build debian/testing packages for me!!11
[14:40:39] <the_wench> no thats your job
[14:40:50] <skunkworks> heh
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[15:26:14] <skunkworks> mozmck: your jog wheel! http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/panel/startfront.JPG
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[15:46:16] <awallin_> any opinions on glass scales vs. magnetic for DRO on a manual mill?
[15:46:37] <awallin_> dealer says glass scales won't fit on the machine, so has to be magnetic
[15:47:11] <cradek> unless you're doing VERY special work, I bet anything you can get to fit would be fine
[15:47:20] <cradek> and if you ARE doing VERY special work, I'm unqualified to comment :-)
[15:51:00] <awallin_> ok. looks like resolution is similar, but the magnetic-strip based DRO is cheaper
[15:53:00] <skunkworks> pcw_home: on the 7I48 - what does the cr8 led indicate? It flashes on for a second when I was plugging in an encoder.
[15:53:19] <skunkworks> I don't see the led descriptions in the manual
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[15:55:35] <danimal_garage> hi
[15:55:35] <the_wench> hello danimal_garage, you have a question?
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[16:01:56] <danimal_garage> i'm trying to tune my servos, for my mill, but it's turning into an ordeal. The drive needs to be tuned via software through my windows pc.
[16:02:13] <danimal_garage> there are settings i'm not familiar with
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[16:03:25] <danimal_garage> like velocity proportional gain
[16:03:36] <danimal_garage> velocity integral gain
[16:03:47] <danimal_garage> velocity forward gain
[16:03:57] <danimal_garage> position proportional gain
[16:04:18] <danimal_garage> cl q-axis gain and cl d-axis gain
[16:05:34] <danimal_garage> manual doesnt say much
[16:06:40] <cradek> yuck
[16:06:54] <cradek> can you give it a velocity step and plot the result?
[16:08:13] <cradek> think of it just like position mode tuning, but with velocity instead
[16:08:37] <danimal_garage> the software has plotting
[16:08:50] <danimal_garage> but i'm not sure what a velocity step is
[16:09:44] <cradek> command zero velocity, then some velocity, then zero again - you know, a square plot in velocity
[16:09:53] <cradek> then see how well you can get it to follow that.
[16:10:03] <cradek> can't believe your manuals don't help. how are you supposed to guess?
[16:10:27] <danimal_garage> the manual is horrible, even for wiring
[16:10:49] <danimal_garage> no wonder they're out of business
[16:11:06] <cradek> ha
[16:12:17] <danimal_garage> btw, EMC2 should be in Wired magazine in a couple months
[16:13:19] <awallin_> they are doing the whole home-manufacturing reprap thing at wired ?
[16:13:55] <danimal_garage> they're using my shop in an article on businesses in the home
[16:14:08] <cradek> cool
[16:14:19] <danimal_garage> and he asked a bit about my machines in the interview so i told him all about it
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[16:14:31] <cradek> that will get us a lot of attention, though I'd rather it be about machining than reprap
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[16:15:03] <danimal_garage> it is kinda about machining
[16:15:18] <cradek> ah neat
[16:15:39] <cradek> both are cool and I'm happy to see both happening for hobbyists.
[16:16:14] <danimal_garage> basically he asked about how i got started, where i got the equipment, asked about the machines, and how i came up with my products. they will be doing a step by step on how i make one of my products
[16:16:35] <danimal_garage> from cad to a finished part
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[16:18:58] <danimal_garage> he was pretty interested in the "homemade" cnc's, so i'm pretty sure that EMC will get some good mentioning
[16:21:55] <danimal_garage> this manual is garbage, they keep using abbreviations without saying what they're abbreviating
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[16:22:29] <danimal_garage> does anyone know what irms is?
[16:23:00] <awallin_> irams ?
[16:23:11] <awallin_> that's a 3-phase driver from IRF
[16:24:58] <danimal_garage> the directions say to set the variable frequency current command to a value between 50% and 100% of irms and variable frequency frequency command to 0.0
[16:25:15] <awallin_> that's root-mean-square
[16:25:18] <danimal_garage> but it doesnt say what irms is
[16:26:50] <awallin_> take a current that is a sine-wave with amplitude I, that is I*sin(wt)
[16:27:00] <awallin_> then I_rms = I/sqrt(2)
[16:27:03] <awallin_> I think...
[16:27:51] <danimal_garage> i dont know what i is
[16:28:17] <awallin_> this is a servo drive?
[16:28:21] <danimal_garage> yes
[16:29:12] <awallin_> then there should be some way of setting the max current I guess
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[16:30:23] <danimal_garage> yes there is
[16:30:40] <danimal_garage> its at 12a right now
[16:30:59] <danimal_garage> ahhh now i see irms
[16:31:16] <danimal_garage> it's called foldback rms current limit
[16:31:35] <danimal_garage> it's shown on in the software, not in the manual
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[17:07:17] <pcw_home> skunkworks: I think CR8 indicates power fail. Power fail is possible with live plugging an encoder, the 5V bypass on the encoder will droop the 7I48s 5V
[17:07:19] <pcw_home> for a few uSec, causing the power fail indication
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[17:14:25] <cradek> skunkworks: 12v light bulbs in your encoder maybe?
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[17:26:47] <danimal_garage> ugh this is driving me nuts.
[17:27:14] <tom3p> wire ferrules are expensive at DK and Mouser, this guy is reasonable http://www.ferrulesdirect.com/INFERR.htm
[17:27:15] <tom3p> mouser was like twobits each
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[17:29:55] <skunkworks> heh- hope it isn't 12v ;)
[17:31:29] <danimal_garage> ok i have the analog 10v disconnected from the drive in effort to tune it separately. it seems to favor one direction of rotation more than the other. i havent found an adjustment to balance it out, does anyone have an idea what to look for? there's no trim pots, it's all in the software
[17:33:44] <emcrules_mobile> look for a bias setting or something like that
[17:34:20] <danimal_garage> yea i didnt see anything
[17:35:13] * skunkworks wonders what drives these are
[17:36:07] <danimal_garage> pacific scientific pc3406ai
[17:36:13] <skunkworks> oh
[17:37:50] <emcrules_mobile> will it spin with no votlage applied?
[17:37:58] <danimal_garage> yes
[17:38:51] <micges> noise?
[17:39:06] <danimal_garage> a little
[17:40:22] <emcrules_mobile> that's not good check for an offset
[17:41:49] <danimal_garage> i see nothing
[17:43:30] <emcrules_mobile> there should be a setting to zero out command voltage most drive have this. sounds like it may have been zeroed out with a small command appLied
[17:44:52] <skunkworks> pcw_home: thanks :)
[17:45:44] <emcrules_mobile> if anyone sees valen on today could they please tell him the name of the grease was open synthetic gear grease
[17:48:10] <atmega> open source grease?
[17:48:16] <danimal_garage> lol
[17:49:36] <emcrules_mobile> pcw: I just order a bunch of boards and forgot to buy a serial daughter card. can I wire straight from the 5i23 to the 8i20?
[17:50:48] <emcrules_mobile> atmega: lol ya I thought that was a weird name for a grease
[17:51:53] <danimal_garage> these amps and motors use resolvers... the resolver gives feedback to the amp, and the amp sends an encoder signal to emc2. do you think i can just put encoders on the motor and skip the feedback to the drives, or will the drives cry about it?
[17:52:05] <cradek> they will cry loudly
[17:52:11] <cradek> use it like it's supposed to work
[17:52:30] <danimal_garage> i think there are problems with the resolvers
[17:52:40] <cradek> why do you think that?
[17:52:46] <danimal_garage> i just got a feedback loss alarm
[17:53:01] <cradek> on more than one?
[17:53:04] <danimal_garage> and the feed is choppy and incosistant
[17:53:31] <cradek> it might just be very badly tuned
[17:53:35] <danimal_garage> not with that motor, but another motor gives one all the time
[17:53:38] <cradek> no mass on it will affect tuning greatly
[17:53:48] <danimal_garage> this was hooked up to the machine
[17:54:13] <cradek> so you don't really know what parts work at all? did this come from many different machines or something?
[17:54:27] <danimal_garage> so there is definitely something wrong with the feedback with one motor at least
[17:54:48] <danimal_garage> it was an ebay buy
[17:55:20] <danimal_garage> i got them all together, but the guy i got them from never used them, he got them for a project but never ended up finishing it
[18:05:58] <emcrules_mobile> can you excite the resolvers and check them on a scope?
[18:08:30] <danimal_garage> i dont have a scope
[18:08:49] <danimal_garage> i swapped motors, i'm gunna give this one a shot
[18:13:16] <emcrules_mobile> if you can find it use pac sci recommended tuning settings and then go from there
[18:13:28] <emcrules_mobile> for that specific motor
[18:14:06] <emcrules_mobile> if its not a pac sci motor the start throwing darts
[18:17:37] <danimal_garage> it is, and i did
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[18:19:41] <danimal_garage> so i set it to the reccomended settings with the different motor
[18:19:50] <danimal_garage> now i'm tuning in emc2
[18:20:14] <danimal_garage> when i adjust the p, it takes almost nothing to get it to start occilating
[18:20:32] <danimal_garage> like 7
[18:21:50] <danimal_garage> it overshoots it's position then trys to correct and it goes back and forth a few times then settles
[18:23:11] <danimal_garage> and it moves faster in one direction than the other
[18:36:59] <mozmck> skunkworks: great! glad it could be of use.
[18:40:56] <skunkworks> mozmck: it is a nice feeling jog wheel
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[18:46:51] <danimal_garage> what setting would make it feed faster in one direction than the other?
[18:47:49] <skunkworks> danimal_garage: I think you really need to get the amp settings situated before you start messing with emc.
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[18:48:42] <danimal_garage> i set it to the reccomended settings
[18:48:48] <danimal_garage> for the motor
[18:49:12] <danimal_garage> they're the same brand, so there's a drop down menu to select the motor
[18:49:15] <skunkworks> but you say it runs faster one direction than the other? What is your hadware? mesa?
[18:49:31] <danimal_garage> yes, a 5i20 and 7i33
[18:49:55] <skunkworks> neat
[18:50:48] <skunkworks> also - I had issues driving my amps because I didn't have the shield/ground hooked up correctly. (for the +/-10v) it ran funny one dir vs the other.
[18:51:11] <danimal_garage> when the 10v analog input is disconnected, the motor spins, so it seems like hmm
[18:51:16] <danimal_garage> woops
[18:51:33] <danimal_garage> *so it seems like something isnt ballanced
[18:52:11] <danimal_garage> but i do not see an adjustment for the bias in the drive's software
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[18:53:13] <andypugh> If you can't find one, you can put one in the PID, it has a bias parameter
[18:53:24] <andypugh> Not the most elegant
[18:54:10] <danimal_garage> yea i saw that, but if its an issue with a setting in the drive, will it counter it?
[18:55:21] <andypugh> It should do, effectiely it will apply an offset to the DC 0V input
[18:56:41] <danimal_garage> wait is it the bias or offset parameter?
[18:56:51] <skunkworks> could be either
[18:57:06] <danimal_garage> same difference?
[18:57:17] <skunkworks> in my opinion ;)
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[18:57:31] <andypugh> Yeah, I know it exists, but not what it is called.
[18:59:09] <danimal_garage> hmm
[18:59:24] <danimal_garage> as far as the grounding issue.... i wonder if there is something there too
[19:00:11] <danimal_garage> i believe there is a shield wire, where should i connect that?
[19:00:20] <danimal_garage> a ground terminal on the 7i33?
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[19:38:00] <danimal_garage> it looks like torque mode might be better to use at least for ease of setup... i think it bypasses most of the variables in the drive itself and relys on emc more
[19:38:35] <danimal_garage> is there any special changes i need to make in emc2 to go from velocity to torque mode? i didnt see much in the manual on that
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[19:53:15] <andypugh> I don't think you need any changes, just different gains
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[20:55:47] <andypugh> 6 hours (estimated) to download Inventor. Autodesk need faster servers. Shouldn't complain though, I am getting it for free ;-)
[21:02:29] <danimal_garage> free is good
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[21:09:39] <danimal_garage> some of the connections are broken, i just found a broken wire on one of the resolvers
[21:09:55] <skunkworks> yeck
[21:10:44] <danimal_garage> these motors are pretty expensive new, but they seem kinda cruddy
[21:11:22] <danimal_garage> cheap plastic cover over the resolver
[21:13:06] <danimal_garage> not overly stoked with them but the price is right
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[21:20:52] <andypugh> I have the encoder of one motor connected to the mesa card, and another motor connected to the 8i20. As I turn one motor, the other follows, but with enormously more force :-)
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[21:22:30] <danimal_garage> is that supposed to happen?
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[21:23:09] <andypugh> In this case, yes. I am using the position of one encoder as the angular position command of the other
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[21:25:20] <danimal_garage> oh cool
[21:25:58] <danimal_garage> hmm i resoldered that connection and set the pid values to zero in emc and it seems pretty stable
[21:26:20] <danimal_garage> is it odd that the pid would be zero, or is it normal since the drive has it's own tuning?
[21:27:11] <andypugh> all pid values?
[21:27:15] <danimal_garage> yes
[21:27:21] <andypugh> you mean the gains?
[21:27:31] <danimal_garage> sorry, the p is at 20
[21:27:33] <cradek> that will give you no output
[21:27:36] <cradek> aha :-)
[21:28:07] <danimal_garage> sorry, used to the lathe being at 400 something :)
[21:28:26] <danimal_garage> 20 seems like zero compared to that lol
[21:29:08] <andypugh> depends on the units involved
[21:29:38] <andypugh> volts-per-thou I suppose
[21:29:55] <danimal_garage> seems to work better in torque mode and with the wire resoldered lol
[21:30:15] <andypugh> How odd!
[21:32:05] <danimal_garage> wow that's MUCH smoother
[21:32:45] <danimal_garage> it still seems like it jumps a few times as it comes to a stop
[21:33:11] <danimal_garage> i have the accel set at 20, i wonder if that's too much for a machine this size with these little motors
[21:33:14] <andypugh> What does Halscope say?
[21:33:48] <danimal_garage> havent checked hal scope, not entirely sure what to monitor
[21:34:02] <danimal_garage> on the lathe i just looked at the ferror
[21:34:15] <danimal_garage> but that needed much less tuning than this mill
[21:34:33] <cradek> plot plot plot
[21:34:35] <cradek> don't guess
[21:34:37] <andypugh> That would be a start, also the pid error term and the command term.
[21:35:48] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziegler–Nichols_method
[21:35:51] <danimal_garage> i increased the d to 1 and it got rid of the hop but the motor has a slight hum now
[21:36:05] <danimal_garage> ok i'll give plotting a shot
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[21:38:12] <danimal_garage> it's actually moving pretty damn smooth now which is a good sign that i might be able to use these motors and drives
[21:38:35] <danimal_garage> and this is on the y axis, which has the most inertia
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[21:39:03] <andypugh> What sort of motors are they?
[21:39:15] <danimal_garage> brushless
[21:39:23] <andypugh> With resolvers?
[21:39:28] <danimal_garage> pacific scientific pmb33e
[21:39:30] <danimal_garage> res
[21:39:33] <danimal_garage> yes
[21:39:56] <danimal_garage> they're fairly recent, probably 8-9 years old
[21:40:00] <danimal_garage> same as the drives
[21:41:00] <Valen> ey danimal_garage havent seen you around for a bit
[21:41:02] <danimal_garage> i got 4 drives and 3 motors on ebay for $300, figured it was cheap enough to give them a shot
[21:41:13] <danimal_garage> although they're probably a bit undersized
[21:41:47] <andypugh> Sound OK to me, a bit bigger than the ones I am hoping to use.
[21:42:08] <Valen> my P is at .7 on one axis
[21:42:08] <andypugh> I paid £50 for three motors, but no drives.
[21:42:23] <danimal_garage> nice, good deal
[21:42:29] <andypugh> Valen: metric machine?
[21:42:33] <Valen> yeah
[21:42:39] <Valen> got 15 on another axis
[21:42:41] <danimal_garage> ah, mine is inches
[21:42:49] <andypugh> metric gains will be smaller
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[21:44:29] <andypugh> I have drives (Mesa 8i20) now, but need to fiddle with my resolver convertor some more.
[21:45:44] <andypugh> I am willfully putting off finding out if my motors will even shift the Z without swapping to a ballscrew.
[21:45:46] <Valen> cant see 8i20 in their price list
[21:45:51] <Valen> how much?
[21:45:59] <andypugh> It's in the PDF version.
[21:46:21] <Valen> ouch
[21:46:30] <Valen> kinda spendy, but I spose for 2Kw
[21:49:24] <andypugh> Cheap enough in bulk, and those are obese american dollars, not your lightweight aussie ones.
[21:49:35] <Valen> we are ~ 1:1 now
[21:50:09] <andypugh> Really? Last time I bought anything from Aus it was nearer £1 = AUD4
[21:50:27] <Valen> $au has jumped up in the past few months
[21:50:33] <Valen> added like 30-40%
[21:50:51] <Valen> 1 Australian dollar = 0.622862173 British pounds
[21:50:55] <andypugh> But a 2kw drive that hooks directly into EMC2 with no silly analogue stages looks like a winner to me.
[21:51:02] <Valen> fer sure
[21:51:11] <Valen> I'd like it to be in pure DC as well
[21:51:17] <Valen> 1 Australian dollar = 0.723858239 Euros
[21:51:35] <andypugh> ('Specially when the drives are "engineering samples" ) :-)
[21:51:56] <Valen> i'm still a little wary of commutation through HAL though ;-P
[21:52:24] <andypugh> Pah! What could possibly go wrong with code written by me?
[21:52:46] <Valen> not so much that, Its what happens when your running at eleventy thousand rpm
[21:52:51] <skunkworks> heh - I have a gear shift comp that is running a 5hp spindle... not too scary ;)
[21:53:07] <skunkworks> what is the worse that could happen ;)
[21:55:21] <danimal_garage> well just by toying around i got the ferror down to .004" on scope
[21:55:32] <danimal_garage> so i'm close
[21:55:38] <skunkworks> that is a start :)
[21:55:45] <skunkworks> what is the scale?
[21:55:48] <Valen> danimal_garage: we made a new head for our old mill www.cnczone.com/forums/general_metal_working_machines/118358-phenolic_basalt_head_our_hm45.html
[21:56:14] <danimal_garage> 20480
[21:57:03] <andypugh> skunkworks: Don't suppose you want a rather lovely, big, automatic boring head?
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[21:57:32] <andypugh> Though I guess in the context of the K&T is is quite small
[21:57:54] <skunkworks> heh - seems shipping would be expensive.. :)
[21:58:22] <andypugh> Yeah, I need to find a UK-based tool-fetishist.
[21:59:00] <skunkworks> danimal_garage: 12-24 counts of following error - that would give you .0005 -> .001 best case....
[21:59:25] <danimal_garage> very cool valen!
[21:59:55] <danimal_garage> thanks skunkwortks, that's about what i'm aiming for
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[22:01:02] <danimal_garage> thats at 300ipm
[22:01:13] <danimal_garage> 3 times faster than my steppers :)
[22:01:18] <Valen> danimal_garage: test it at different speeds
[22:01:27] <danimal_garage> i will
[22:01:30] <Valen> on ours the response is very non linear
[22:01:40] <Valen> paticularly when using the feed forwards
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[22:04:19] <Valen> I set it to sit around 0 with FF1 but then changing the speed makes changes what FF1 needs to be to zero it out
[22:05:11] <andypugh> One of the neatest features of this boring head is the fast-adjustment. You can insert a hex key and rotate the leadscrew directly. As you push in the key it pushes out 3 ball bearings in the corners of the hex, releasing the screw. As you remove the key, it locks again.
[22:05:40] <andypugh> Valen: The gains are pins. You can, in theory, vary them on the fly.
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[22:06:03] <Valen> sounds complex
[22:06:09] <andypugh> Insanely so.
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[22:06:33] <Valen> would only need a fairly simple relationship
[22:06:42] <andypugh> We use a bunch of controllers on car engines where the P I and D terms come out of 3D maps.
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[22:07:06] <Valen> I'm hoping our next mill which is linear rail based won't have these issues
[22:08:20] <danimal_garage> nice, progress..... .002" or less now
[22:08:42] <Valen> have you tried running at a lower or higher speed?
[22:08:49] <skunkworks> our big machine runs on http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/tikkoway.JPG - which make for very little stiction
[22:08:51] <danimal_garage> same, 300ipm
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[22:09:02] <danimal_garage> i will try other speeds
[22:09:20] <danimal_garage> just trying to figure out what changes do what at this point
[22:09:33] <Valen> what are you tuning with atm?
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[22:10:08] <danimal_garage> what do you mean?
[22:10:10] <andypugh> ah, yes, skunkworks, I saw some of those on eBay the other day.
[22:10:22] <danimal_garage> emc, making changes to i
[22:10:27] <Valen> which knobs are you twiddling ;-> P or P and I or P and D etc
[22:10:36] <Valen> you should leave I for last
[22:10:42] <danimal_garage> i did
[22:10:43] <Valen> its the "catch all"
[22:10:56] <danimal_garage> i got p and d where it was stable
[22:10:56] <skunkworks> andypugh: really? neat. I have not seen too many others/
[22:11:18] <Valen> you can then add some ff1 to get it to sit around 0 ferror
[22:11:20] <andypugh> They looked too small, or I would have mentioned them to you.
[22:11:21] <danimal_garage> now i'm bringing up i a tiny amount at a time and it's decreasing the ferror
[22:11:32] <danimal_garage> ahh thanks
[22:11:33] <Valen> then add I to take out any residuals
[22:11:46] <Valen> and you can make I pretty large
[22:11:54] <Valen> with my P of .7 i have an I of 50
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[22:12:49] <Valen> you can add a hint of ff2 to help it with acceleration
[22:13:00] <danimal_garage> i'm at 120p and .7 i
[22:13:17] <Tom_itx> that seems off
[22:13:19] <danimal_garage> i tried adding ff1 and it increased the ferror
[22:13:21] <Valen> 0 the i out and play with ff1 at various speeds
[22:13:31] <Valen> it'll probably be very small
[22:13:37] <Valen> we use like .03 or so
[22:13:37] <danimal_garage> it tripped it
[22:13:41] <danimal_garage> ah ok
[22:13:48] <danimal_garage> i did .1
[22:13:55] <danimal_garage> i'll try smaller
[22:14:02] <Valen> start really small and you should see it home in
[22:14:03] <danimal_garage> tom, what seems off?
[22:14:13] <Tom_itx> p seems high to me
[22:14:18] <Valen> though you should see if the ferror is the same in both directions first
[22:14:24] <Tom_itx> but what do i know
[22:14:34] <danimal_garage> more than me tom
[22:14:47] <danimal_garage> it looks pretty even valen
[22:14:48] <Valen> tis an imperial machine Tom_itx
[22:14:59] <Tom_itx> so?
[22:15:01] <Valen> you can tweak that with bias if its an issue
[22:15:16] <Valen> they have larger values than metric, was all i was saying Tom_itx
[22:15:17] <Tom_itx> if p is too high it will overshoot
[22:15:38] <Tom_itx> well i have yet to play with it
[22:15:53] <Tom_itx> i gotta find something to put it on first
[22:15:57] <andypugh> P-gain is in volts per inch, not volts per mm (simplistically)
[22:16:07] <Tom_itx> it griped installing it on the pc104
[22:16:49] <danimal_garage> what will p do if it's too low?
[22:16:58] <Tom_itx> never get to the setpoint
[22:17:15] <Valen> depends on how you want it to run
[22:17:26] <Valen> large P will make it leap to action
[22:17:29] <Valen> but overshoot
[22:17:41] <Valen> adding some D will help stop/reduce the overshoot
[22:17:58] <Valen> low P means it won't overshoot, but it'll also be slower to reach the set point
[22:19:04] <danimal_garage> gotcha
[22:19:12] <danimal_garage> i had to add a little d
[22:19:16] <Valen> too much P can cause oscilation
[22:19:21] <Valen> that sounds about right then
[22:19:26] <danimal_garage> .4
[22:19:41] <Tom_itx> actually tune p till it oscillates then back it off a bit and add in some d then
[22:19:47] <Valen> I cant really compare values, mine is ~.3
[22:19:51] <Valen> .03 rather
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[22:20:21] <danimal_garage> tom, kinda what i did
[22:20:32] <Valen> oscilation is unplesant
[22:20:34] <danimal_garage> worked well so far
[22:20:38] <Valen> blows fuses on my mill lol
[22:20:41] <danimal_garage> yea tell me about it!
[22:20:52] <danimal_garage> especially on a 6000lb mill
[22:21:11] <Valen> bad enough on a 6600lb one
[22:21:14] <Valen> 660
[22:21:21] <danimal_garage> yea
[22:21:28] <Valen> we have "400W" servos
[22:21:46] <Tom_itx> from where?
[22:21:55] <Valen> from scooter motors ;->
[22:22:03] <Tom_itx> oh yeah i remember now
[22:22:06] <Valen> with some modified mesa 400W drives
[22:22:11] <andypugh> I used to have to tune fatigue testing machines. You can't tune them until the specimens are fitted. The specimens are expensive...
[22:22:16] <Valen> no more current limit
[22:22:30] <Tom_itx> i used to make specimens
[22:23:03] <andypugh> So you wer not happy when the test engineer snapped them tuning the rig?
[22:23:08] <Tom_itx> only they broke em in a press
[22:23:13] * Valen made a specimen this morning
[22:23:43] <Tom_itx> we'd cut both grain directions for testing
[22:23:53] <Tom_itx> oops. dinnertime
[22:24:11] <Valen> how you progressing danimal_garage?
[22:24:39] <danimal_garage> i would say it's pretty good
[22:24:51] <andypugh> Hot off the press from psha: http://psha.org.ru/tmp/src/Master_Integrator.html#_tuning
[22:24:58] <danimal_garage> max ferror seems to be about .0015 but probably averages about .0005
[22:25:01] <danimal_garage> inches
[22:25:09] <Valen> thats with no I?
[22:25:18] <danimal_garage> oh thats with a little i
[22:25:25] <danimal_garage> i havent tried no i yet
[22:25:38] <Valen> if your tweaking the others you should 0 i
[22:25:44] <Valen> it'll hide the effect of the others
[22:26:02] <andypugh> Is that in rapids? It is my opinion that you should tune for max cutting speed, and let the rapids wander.
[22:26:15] <Valen> get it as good as you can with everything else, then add in a buttload of I
[22:26:23] <danimal_garage> valen i got rid of i and it's at about .004
[22:26:29] <danimal_garage> andy, yes, at rapid
[22:26:43] <Valen> you really really need to vary the speeds
[22:27:17] <andypugh> What's your f-error at a sane cutting speed? (who cares about rapids?)
[22:27:47] <danimal_garage> about the same andy
[22:27:57] <Valen> thats good
[22:28:02] <danimal_garage> valen, i played with the bias and i got it damn close
[22:28:04] <Valen> are you using halscope?
[22:28:13] <danimal_garage> now it's at .001 or less with no p
[22:28:14] <danimal_garage> yes
[22:28:19] <Valen> cool
[22:28:28] <Valen> are there any spikes when you start and stop?
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[22:29:28] <Valen> I usually set the scope to "roll" mode to look for it then just jog
[22:29:49] <danimal_garage> valen, no, it's pretty smooth
[22:29:54] <Valen> (I presume by no p you meant no i?)
[22:29:59] <danimal_garage> i increased d and got it to under .001
[22:30:06] <danimal_garage> right
[22:30:08] <danimal_garage> no i
[22:30:17] <Valen> be careful with D it can make it "noisy"
[22:30:30] <Valen> and put undue strain on power supplies and motors etc
[22:30:40] <danimal_garage> ah ok thanks
[22:30:48] <Valen> add a buttload of I and you should be done
[22:30:53] <Valen> like 40 or something
[22:30:57] <Valen> but stop the mill first
[22:30:58] <danimal_garage> i made it worse now lol
[22:31:00] <Valen> F2
[22:31:24] <Valen> always F2 before playing with I
[22:31:28] <danimal_garage> it has a little spike with .1 i
[22:31:35] <Valen> otherwise it goes "bang" and scares the pants off you
[22:31:36] <andypugh> I might be negative...
[22:31:37] <danimal_garage> at change of direction
[22:31:47] <danimal_garage> in i andy?
[22:31:59] <danimal_garage> ok
[22:32:05] <Valen> negative I wouldn't work I don't think
[22:32:22] <Valen> or I cant see how it could lol
[22:32:29] <psha> Valen: now guess where 'I' refers to 'me' and where - to variable ;)
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[22:32:55] <andypugh> Depends on how the equations are written.
[22:33:04] <Valen> its positive on mine
[22:33:27] <andypugh> In that case, it should be positive :-)
[22:33:32] <Valen> danimal_garage: try a bunch of I, and watch for "long period" oscilation
[22:34:01] <Valen> some of our axies oscilate .001mm over like 5 seconds
[22:34:33] <skunkworks> andypugh: if you do a search for emc2 on youtube - you are the first non featured video to come up.
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[22:34:50] <skunkworks> your hobbing video
[22:34:51] <andypugh> Seems odd
[22:35:03] <andypugh> It's not _vastly_ popular
[22:35:12] <skunkworks> 5873 views
[22:35:33] <skunkworks> by relevence - whatever that means
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[22:35:56] <skunkworks> it has been that way for a while. few months atleast
[22:35:56] <elmo40> would a TTL encoder be good for a lathe spindle? it came off of a VMC for spindle orientation so I see no reason not to work on a lathe.
[22:36:07] <andypugh> The monster Cinci has 14k views
[22:36:19] <Valen> elmo40: they might be ignoring the thing at high speeds perhaps
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[22:37:23] <andypugh> elmo40: It ought to work fine. Does it have a usefully big hole in the middle?
[22:37:33] <cradek> elmo40: depends how fast you want to thread.
[22:41:56] <danimal_garage> increasing p gets rid of some ferror
[22:42:38] <danimal_garage> i'm at .0007" max now
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[22:43:59] <Valen> you want P as large as you can
[22:45:15] <danimal_garage> i should probably try and find some molex connectors for the other amps before it gets too late
[22:45:48] <Valen> tried adding a buttload of I just for giggles?
[22:45:50] <danimal_garage> i'd be stoked if this thing was running under servo power before next week
[22:45:53] <Valen> rember F2 first ;->
[22:45:56] <danimal_garage> i did, made it worse
[22:46:01] <Valen> add lots more
[22:46:04] <danimal_garage> f2 first... forgot that one
[22:46:18] <Valen> otherwise it'll go *bang* lol
[22:46:42] <danimal_garage> oh f2 as in turn it off, yea, i did that
[22:46:55] <Valen> you don't need to do that with any of the others
[22:47:05] <Valen> you can adjust them whilst its running
[22:47:11] <Valen> (I do it while its cutting sometimes)
[22:48:00] <Valen> brb
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[22:52:31] <andypugh> Hmm, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Hgb98xxFc&feature=related
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[22:53:12] <andypugh> I wonder what he means by "the last machinist"? And he is using a _claw_ hammer (and holding it funny) at 11:20.
[22:55:40] * Valen attempts to upgrade to 10.10
[22:55:58] <Valen> (not emc computer ;->)
[22:56:35] <Valen> actually out of curiosity has anybody tried running iotop or powertop on an EMC machine running 10.04?
[22:57:32] <Valen> I don't have an EMC machine in front of me, but in 10.04 I notice the "load" is much higher than one would expect/like
[22:59:17] <andypugh> Can't say I have
[23:01:10] <Valen> if you run "uptime" in a terminal it'll give you the load average
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[23:06:09] <andypugh> top says axis is taking 11% cpu
[23:06:23] <andypugh> Not very instructive
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[23:10:09] <Valen> yeah but whats the load average?
[23:10:15] <andypugh> 0
[23:10:25] <Valen> there is a bug in 10.04 that causes high load even with low CPU
[23:10:30] <Valen> nifty
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[23:11:28] <andypugh> I guess it has been sat doing nothing so long that the load has fallen into the second decimal place
[23:13:21] <andypugh> Anyway, time to think about logging off, they actualy expect me at work in the morning tomorrow (how inhumane!)
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[23:19:10] <danimal_garage> what version of emc are you guys running?
[23:19:17] <danimal_garage> is 2.4.x out yet?
[23:20:10] * skunkworks looks at the irc topic... 2.4.6
[23:20:18] <skunkworks> ;)
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[23:22:01] <danimal_garage> haha opps
[23:22:18] <danimal_garage> how os it? i think i'm 2.3.5
[23:22:23] <danimal_garage> is*
[23:22:41] <elmo40> I am not worried about a hole in my encoder. I will use a timing belt (just like how it was done on the VMC)
[23:22:45] <elmo40> emc2_2.4.6
[23:24:54] <PCW> Hey Andy have 3 7I64s and 8I20 running at 4 KHz no problem Every thing works fine
[23:24:55] <PCW> would like the 8 bit SSLBP data register available so failed transfers (CRC.Timeout etc) can be logged
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[23:28:47] <PCW> rats just missed him
[23:40:02] <danimal_garage> does anyone know how to make it so when i use tool touch off, it changes the tool offset for the tool offset instead of the tool number?
[23:40:29] <danimal_garage> for example, i use gang tooling in my lathe, so they all use the same tool number, but i use different tool offsets for all of them
[23:40:58] <danimal_garage> like t7m6 g43h7, g43h8, g43h9, etc
[23:41:30] <danimal_garage> when i use tool touch off, it changes it for tool offset 7 only, even if i do g43h8 in mdi before i touch it off
[23:41:43] <danimal_garage> both z and x
[23:42:23] <danimal_garage> i do have a tool changer so i can't use different tool numbers because it will rotate the turret
[23:43:52] <danimal_garage> be back in a bit, gotta run to the store
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