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[00:29:25] <jdh> I know quite a few physicsts, they all seem to have children
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[00:34:43] <andypugh> Not all of them.
[00:35:20] <andypugh> (assuming that you extend “know” to folk you see on IRC)
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[00:39:27] <malcom2073> I'm going to throw out an assumption, that andypugh has no kids, and jdh does.
[00:39:56] <jdh> I do, but I am not a physicist.
[00:40:20] <malcom2073> It has more to do with the kind of people you often associate with
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[00:40:34] <jdh> I work in a nuclear facility
[00:40:43] <andypugh> I am a physicist and I am 99.9999% certain I have no kids. But I have some blank spots when some zygotes could have been stolen without me knowing.
[00:43:17] <malcom2073> Weirder stuff has happened around here
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[00:47:29] <jdh> I think a lot of children might be due to boredom
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[01:58:26] <hatch789_> hey guys is there any way to determine if my signal pins are outputting something? I'm getting drift on my 7i43 board or the 7i49 resolver board. I'd like to see what voltage my signal pin is transmitting if that's possible?
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[02:01:11] <andypugh> Well, yes, a multimeter is a good start
[02:01:31] <hatch789_> I've tried connecting between the signal and signal common
[02:01:37] <hatch789_> but don't detect anything there really
[02:01:47] <hatch789_> it should be DC voltage right?
[02:02:23] <andypugh> How fast does it drift?
[02:03:05] <andypugh> We talked a bit about this equally late last night, I think?
[02:03:31] <andypugh> Didn’t you say the drift stopped when you closed the position loop?
[02:03:53] <hatch789_> yup we did. but I never understood how to close the position loop you and pcw were just talking about that
[02:04:06] <hatch789_> so I'm reading a negative .25v
[02:04:12] <hatch789_> on both x and y right now
[02:04:20] <hatch789_> that's definitely something that would cause the drift
[02:05:40] <andypugh> Yes, that would be a fast drift.
[02:05:48] <hatch789_> I've turned on linuxCNC and stil negative voltage on both
[02:05:57] <hatch789_> so how ...more importantly why is it doing this suddenly?
[02:06:00] <hatch789_> I never had this before
[02:06:02] <andypugh> But, perhaps that is the 7i43 trying to correct the drift.
[02:06:13] <andypugh> So, it used to work?
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[02:06:23] <hatch789_> well at this time I have the same when linuxcnc is off or on
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[02:06:40] <hatch789_> I don't have the power button on linuxcnc turned on right now.
[02:06:49] <hatch789_> I just have the program running
[02:07:11] <hatch789_> yes it used to work. I have changed to a new power supply so perhaps that's the cause?
[02:07:31] <hatch789_> maybe the new PSU is slightly different voltage from the old one
[02:07:33] <andypugh> LinuxCNC turns off the PID when the machine is off.
[02:07:45] <hatch789_> PID is what?
[02:08:01] <andypugh> What hapens if you turn on LinuxCNC?
[02:08:08] <hatch789_> testing it now
[02:08:29] <Jymmm> andypugh: It wants dinner and a movie first.
[02:09:03] <andypugh> How did you ever set up a servo/resolver system if you don’t know what PID is?
[02:09:24] <hatch789_> I had help from you guys
[02:09:44] <hatch789_> I just turned on the power in LinuxCNC and still -.26v
[02:09:51] <hatch789_> on both X&Y so that's definitely my drift
[02:10:28] <hatch789_> so if the only thing I changed with the PSU then yes it's possibly the cause.
[02:11:13] <andypugh> That seems unlikely, actually. It’s been 5 minutes, after 5 minutes at 0.25 volts I would expect the system to be hard against the end-stops and bit of machinery pinging around the room.
[02:12:11] <hatch789_> I don't have the mill turned on right now
[02:12:20] <hatch789_> because as soon as I do activate the servos that happens
[02:12:26] <hatch789_> they just run until they hit the stops
[02:12:28] <gregcnc> are you still using the USB or another source?
[02:12:59] <hatch789_> I tried USB for a few attempts but it was doing this
[02:13:05] <hatch789_> then I went to a new PSU
[02:14:01] <andypugh> I am sorry, I would like to help, but it is 2am and i drank a nice bottle of wine. I need to sleep.
[02:14:12] <hatch789_> understood
[02:14:24] <hatch789_> I'm just trying to find out if there is a way for me to adjust my signal voltage down
[02:14:31] <hatch789_> or up in this case to get it close to zero
[02:14:53] <hatch789_> is there a HAL setting I can adjust that with?
[02:15:14] <andypugh> Youneed to work out why there is any signal voltage at all. Use halmeter to look at the PID inputs, outputs and error.
[02:16:32] <andypugh> The output of the 7i49 should be related to the PID output. You need to work out what is going on there, and why.
[02:17:07] <andypugh> And, no offence, but it sounds like you need to start by undersanding servo feedback, PID and HAL.
[02:17:11] <hatch789_> is there an easy way for me to determine which PID point to look at
[02:17:18] <hatch789_> based upon the physical pin on the 7i49 board?
[02:17:40] <andypugh> No. Any PID can drive any output, repending on how you set up the HAL file.
[02:17:56] <gregcnc> why would there be signal voltage before the PID is active?
[02:17:57] <hatch789_> I understand the PID loop (active real-time feedback mechanism) and vaguely how HAL inegrates with the said points
[02:18:23] <andypugh> But form the HAL config yo should be able to tell which PID controls which axis and which output it is associate with.
[02:18:47] <hatch789_> unfortunately my system was set up mostly manually by a friend so I can't use the built in tools that come with linuxcnc
[02:19:18] <gregcnc> hal meter doesn't work?
[02:19:19] <hatch789_> so when I do hal config my daughter boards are not even in there properly etc.
[02:19:32] <hatch789_> hence it's all useless when I try to look at it in there
[02:19:43] <hatch789_> hal meter works
[02:19:56] <hatch789_> i'd say PID 0 is my X
[02:19:59] <andypugh> Yes, you can. You just can’t use PNCConf. Evewrything else will work. Including, most imprtantly, looking at the HAL flle in a text editor.
[02:20:00] <hatch789_> PID 1 is my Y
[02:20:21] <hatch789_> I have it up in my TXT Editor right now
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[02:21:22] <hatch789_> it looks like this is my PWM gen signal
[02:21:32] <hatch789_> setp hm2_7i43.0.pwmgen.00.output-type 2
[02:21:33] <andypugh> Well, you can look at every signal and pin in there in halmeter and see if the numbers make sense.
[02:21:54] <hatch789_> but how would I adjust the voltage if I find the perpetrator?
[02:22:07] <andypugh> That just sets it to a pwm type. Though type 2 is vaguely unuexpecte.
[02:23:00] <andypugh> Do you know where to find the documentation?
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[02:23:41] <andypugh> Actually, type 2 might be right for 7i49:
http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.7/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html#pwmgen
[02:25:05] <andypugh> What is the pwmgen input value? Does that match the output voltage? Just follow the numbers and see where they stop making sense.
[02:25:27] <hatch789_> no
[02:25:36] <hatch789_> it's bouncing around at .004xxxxxx
[02:25:48] <andypugh> Check that the resolver position feedbacl makes sense, and increaes in the right direction. Just check all the basic stuff.
[02:25:53] <hatch789_> so that's why I'm confused when my multimeter is reading -.25
[02:26:02] <hatch789_> but hal meter shows .004xxxx
[02:26:33] <hatch789_> hm2_7i43.0.pwmgen.00.value ...this should be my signal voltage right?
[02:26:43] <hatch789_> it should match close to what my multimeter states I would think
[02:27:00] <andypugh> Is the 7i49 working? Do the resolvers work correctly? Are the right LEDs lit on the board?
[02:28:35] <andypugh> Just follow the signal paths, if nothing else you will learn how the system is put together, which has to be a good thing.
[02:28:38] <hatch789_> they appear to be
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[02:28:46] <hatch789_> and when I move the hand controls it reads position accurately
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[02:33:19] <pink_vampire> hi
[02:34:13] <gregcnc> how does it position correctly if it's drifting?
[02:36:24] <pink_vampire> i did some some phone calls
[02:37:39] <pink_vampire> ans they first say that is junk
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[02:38:20] <pink_vampire> then they give me prices of 3000 to 5000 $
[02:38:49] <gregcnc> the no thank you quote
[02:39:24] <pink_vampire> but why?
[02:39:39] <gregcnc> doesn't matter why
[02:40:01] <pink_vampire> so what i can do?
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[02:41:55] <pink_vampire> how much it will cost to remove the dovetails?
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[02:43:25] <gregcnc> I don't know prb $3-5k, but I do know it's beer and TV time.
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[02:57:32] <Sync_> pink_vampire: learn how to scrape
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[02:57:53] <pink_vampire> I want to remove the whole dovetail
[02:58:58] <pink_vampire> and install linear rails with ball bearings
[02:59:56] <pink_vampire> but I'm not sure how to calculate the load on the rails.
[03:00:41] <pink_vampire> I know how to calculate the static load..
[03:01:41] <pink_vampire> but what is the load on the rails in machining this is the important thing.
[03:02:03] <pink_vampire> Sync_: ^
[03:02:10] <pink_vampire> someone..
[03:06:18] <SpeedEvil> pink_vampire: you're looking at this utterly wrong.
[03:06:24] <SpeedEvil> You are asking questions badly.
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[03:06:39] <pink_vampire> what do you mean?
[03:06:42] <SpeedEvil> You need to start out with what you are trying to achieve, then what is your easiest path to it.
[03:06:59] <SpeedEvil> Do not fixate on one particular thing - scraping - as a cure-al that will resolve all your problems
[03:07:10] <pink_vampire> I want to make this machine usable.
[03:07:16] <SpeedEvil> It is usable.
[03:07:21] <pink_vampire> no!
[03:07:30] <SpeedEvil> It has specific limitations on what it can achieve.
[03:07:36] <SpeedEvil> Any machine has limitations.
[03:07:38] <Valen> whatever it is will probably cut statues out of wood just fine
[03:08:10] <SpeedEvil> You have to carefully work out if it's sensible trying to improve your device - or for example sell it on ebay and buy a better one
[03:08:13] <Valen> you need to define your task in order to define all the other stuff
[03:08:17] <SpeedEvil> with the same money
[03:08:19] <SpeedEvil> precisely.
[03:08:37] <SpeedEvil> Many of the inaccuracies in machines can be worked round at the cost of time.
[03:08:56] <SpeedEvil> So how much you're doing with it also matters, and there is a trade betwen accuracy and metrology
[03:09:22] <pink_vampire> now if i take a cut the z axis push back/ sideways and it's make pooor finish and destroy the end mills.
[03:10:02] <Sync_> stupid question, is your quill locked?
[03:10:06] <os1r1s> pink_vampire This with your g0704?
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[03:10:15] <SpeedEvil> cutting what? With what diameter endmill? Reducing cut forces will in many cases help
[03:11:15] <SpeedEvil> Very few machines can do all we might ask of them.
[03:11:28] <Valen> feeds and speeds right?
[03:11:35] <pink_vampire> if i would use it manually, and lock the gib of the z each cut, it will be ok, but for a cnc, I have to use z axis without freedom
[03:11:45] <Valen> is there a photo of this thing?
[03:12:22] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/EtZX0s9.png
[03:12:47] <os1r1s> What happened to it?
[03:13:14] <Valen> I meant of the whole machine
[03:13:14] <pink_vampire> this is an old pic, but now it's better but I still have a gap
[03:13:37] <os1r1s> pink_vampire I thought it was working fine. What happened?
[03:13:38] <pink_vampire> and the dovetail don't touch all the way
[03:14:16] <pink_vampire> it's ok on some parts, and very bad on other parts
[03:14:25] <Sync_> another thing you can consider is adding gasstruts
[03:14:51] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: to ensure that it's always preloaded even with cutting forces?
[03:15:12] <pink_vampire> on the bottom of the z axis is very tight, an also on the top, but on the middle it's veeery loos
[03:15:38] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/2sWNS4d.png
[03:15:44] <pink_vampire> this is the dovetail
[03:15:46] <Sync_> no, that the torque the over hanging spindle produces is reduced
[03:15:55] <Sync_> giving better loading of the dovetail
[03:15:58] <pink_vampire> you can see the problem
[03:16:05] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: ah
[03:16:14] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Is that from wear?
[03:16:21] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: no
[03:16:35] <pink_vampire> the dovetails just cut vary poor.
[03:16:52] <os1r1s> pink_vampire How old is the machine?
[03:16:58] <Sync_> how are you lubing the ways?
[03:17:11] <pink_vampire> so after the lapping it's much better, but not perfect.
[03:17:23] <pink_vampire> from the mid 2014
[03:18:20] <pink_vampire> Sync_: I try to use oil and now i'm with dry graphite lubrication
[03:18:52] <pink_vampire> the graphite help the make the surfaces more even..
[03:19:52] <pink_vampire> so what I think I to remove the whole dovetails, and use THK rails.
[03:19:58] <Sync_> graphite is abrasive
[03:20:10] <Sync_> use way oil.
[03:20:44] <pink_vampire> Sync_: it have layer of graphite on each side.
[03:21:05] <pink_vampire> with oil it was un usable
[03:21:20] <pink_vampire> with the graphite the run the best.
[03:21:54] <Sync_> well, if you like wearing your ways down quickly, use graphite
[03:21:55] <pink_vampire> but not perfect very far from prefect
[03:22:12] <pink_vampire> http://www.thkstore.com/products/linear-motion/linear-motion-guides/shs-v-block.html
[03:22:32] <pink_vampire> as you can see in the table in the link.
[03:22:48] <pink_vampire> there is "Dynamic rating"
[03:23:23] <pink_vampire> this is the maximum load that I can apply on the rail
[03:23:49] <pink_vampire> so.. how I can calculate / estimate it?
[03:23:54] <os1r1s> pink_vampire That looks low to me ....
[03:24:03] <pink_vampire> low?
[03:24:03] <os1r1s> I don't think those rails are meant for this duty cycle
[03:24:50] <pink_vampire> but every industrial cnc use them.
[03:25:42] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Those look like the small router type ones
[03:25:46] <os1r1s> Maybe not ...
[03:25:50] <os1r1s> I'm sure someone will chime in
[03:25:52] <OdinYggd> Not every cnc.
[03:26:06] <pink_vampire> all the new ones,
[03:26:13] <OdinYggd> But most of the newer ones have gone to low friction dovetails with linear ball guides
[03:26:22] <OdinYggd> Allows rapid speeds in excess of 1000 IPM
[03:27:46] <pink_vampire> same principals as those rails..
[03:28:52] <pink_vampire> so.. how I know with rail I need?
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[03:29:04] <pink_vampire> like.. what size?
[03:29:34] <os1r1s> pink_vampire I think it would be a lot cheaper to just order a new column
[03:30:34] <pink_vampire> even if i get new one from grizzly it will be cheap made and shit quality..
[03:30:49] <pink_vampire> so anyway I will need to do it..
[03:31:41] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: how it's on your machine?
[03:32:02] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Perfect
[03:32:13] <os1r1s> Matt inspects them before they leave his shop
[03:32:22] <os1r1s> And scrapes/laps the ways as necessary
[03:32:41] <pink_vampire> who is matt?
[03:33:01] <os1r1s> from PrecisionMatthews
[03:33:07] <os1r1s> The one that sells the PM25-mv
[03:34:41] <pink_vampire> you have full contact on your Z axis all the way?
[03:35:39] <os1r1s> Yes
[03:35:42] <pink_vampire> you can't push a filler gauge in any place
[03:35:51] <os1r1s> No. Not at all
[03:36:27] <pink_vampire> even if you press the drill press quill against something?
[03:36:47] <os1r1s> Mine is tight to slide
[03:37:32] <pink_vampire> so to trash the g0704
[03:37:48] <pink_vampire> and get the PM-25MV ?
[03:38:12] <os1r1s> I would just get a new column if I were you
[03:38:26] <os1r1s> And if it isn't better send it back
[03:38:32] <os1r1s> And keep doing that till you get a good one
[03:38:48] <os1r1s> Is it CNCed? Did you add ballscrews?
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[03:40:00] <pink_vampire> yes, I convert it to the 1025 servos.
[03:40:06] <pink_vampire> oz/in
[03:40:29] <pink_vampire> the electronics are good,
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[03:40:44] <os1r1s> pink_vampire Mine is still 4-5 weeks away from fully running
[03:40:55] <os1r1s> I'll let you know if I have any issues once I get there
[03:41:34] <pink_vampire> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/273984-cnc-tormach.html
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[03:42:59] <pink_vampire> " The Z has always been a little tight towards the top of the column, which I've seen numerous others have similar issues"
[03:45:23] <os1r1s> I'm reading the conversion.
[03:45:30] <os1r1s> I dont' have that issue on mine
[03:45:46] <os1r1s> If i did I would get replacement parts under warranty
[03:47:20] <pink_vampire> after it's move up and down 1000 times..
[03:47:33] <pink_vampire> it's start to get the gap
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[03:49:22] <os1r1s> pink_vampire I would think at that part I would just adjust my ways
[03:49:47] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/F3oI8YW.png
[03:49:59] <pink_vampire> this is the problem on my machine.
[03:50:45] <os1r1s> Gotcha
[03:50:50] <pink_vampire> so if you cut the moving part on the Z axis get pushed back
[03:51:02] <pink_vampire> and it's make poor finish.
[03:51:07] <os1r1s> then you could just order a new Z-carriage
[03:51:24] <pink_vampire> so yeah it will cut but not good.
[03:51:42] <pink_vampire> you will have to take very light cuts
[03:52:14] <pink_vampire> the Z-carriage it's ok +-
[03:52:39] <os1r1s> I think there are plenty that use g0704's and I haven't seen many report the problem you see
[03:52:59] <pink_vampire> the dovetails are shit. and to fix them I need someone with larger machine to re done the dovetails.
[03:53:36] <pink_vampire> because it technically work
[03:55:56] <pink_vampire> now if you want to cut you can just move the z to a certain height and make a cut or you have to lock it?
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[03:57:39] <os1r1s> I wouldn't settle for that. I would replace the parts that were broken
[03:58:24] <OdinYggd> >Machining a carriage
[03:58:29] <OdinYggd> Probably not a good idea!
[03:58:37] <pink_vampire> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=285506&d=1435751067
[03:58:44] <OdinYggd> they are usually precision ground, then scraped to a final finish
[03:58:54] <pink_vampire> do you see the finish on the part?
[04:00:00] <pink_vampire> now look on the finish on part that I made
[04:00:03] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/VtiL3GE.png
[04:01:12] <pink_vampire> it's not mirror finish and have like "lines"
[04:02:26] <pink_vampire> os1r1s: OdinYggd SpeedEvil ^^^
[04:03:08] <SpeedEvil> GEtting a mirror finish is quite hard in many or most cases
[04:03:48] <OdinYggd> And in a slideway, it is undesireable
[04:04:42] <OdinYggd> On the old school box ways and dovetails before linear ball cartridges were a thing, you would intentionally frost the surface after achieving flatness in order to give it oil retention capability
[04:05:00] <OdinYggd> that's why bridgeport ways have that flake pattern to them- its scraped in on purpose to help waylube stick
[04:06:37] <pink_vampire> OdinYggd: so just live with that?
[04:06:58] <pink_vampire> i'm not sure what do you mean..
[04:07:00] <OdinYggd> I'm not quite sure how this is supposed to work
[04:07:09] <OdinYggd> that looks like a T-nut, not a linear rail cartridge
[04:07:13] <SpeedEvil> The frosted pattern does not affect accuracy
[04:07:30] <SpeedEvil> there is enough contact points that it is irrelevant
[04:07:35] <OdinYggd> ^
[04:07:38] <pink_vampire> look at the finish on the "t-nut"
[04:07:49] <pink_vampire> I make it on the machine..
[04:07:53] <OdinYggd> It doesn't affect accuracy, but the oil retention it provides makes it move easier
[04:08:03] <SpeedEvil> And decreases wear
[04:08:15] <OdinYggd> That part is a mill finish? Or was it ground.
[04:08:52] <pink_vampire> this T-nut is a part that i made.. I link it just to show you the poor finish that I'm getting
[04:09:54] <OdinYggd> That doesn't look bad to me though
[04:10:02] <OdinYggd> The picture is making it hard to qualify
[04:10:12] <SpeedEvil> What actual surface finish are you getting.
[04:10:17] <SpeedEvil> That is - numbers.
[04:10:35] <pink_vampire> how I can measure it?
[04:11:04] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: ^
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[04:25:33] <archivist> mitutoyo surftest
[04:27:06] <pink_vampire> archivist: one day...
[04:27:31] <pink_vampire> I need to become rich first..
[04:31:15] <SpeedEvil> you might start with a USB microscope
[04:35:01] <archivist> if you search and wait ebay often has cheap stuff, I got an old style surftest and some roughness standards for about £50
[04:39:50] <archivist> http://www.electronicsurplus.com/mitutoyo-178-903e-60-surftest-iii-surftest-iii-profilometer-system
[04:41:05] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: I have nice spencer microscope
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[04:42:04] <pink_vampire> archivist: i have ha no idea how it's even work
[04:42:25] <archivist> it has a small diamond stylus
[04:43:00] <hatch789_> guys what would make my resolvers be jumping all over the place even when my mill is not powered on? it's like linuxCNC is seeing several hundredths of variation on both of my resolvers for no reason
[04:43:02] <archivist> it rides across the roughness
[04:43:06] <SpeedEvil> pink_vampire: then use it to inspect the surface, you can work out how deep things are by how much the defocus is
[04:43:35] <pink_vampire> do yo want me to bring it here..
[04:43:45] <archivist> hatch789_, electrical noise
[04:44:53] <hatch789_> but the mill is off
[04:45:16] <hatch789_> ok so maybe my power supply is bad somehow?
[04:45:21] <hatch789_> I'll try another one
[04:45:22] <archivist> scope
[04:45:41] <hatch789_> can hal meter show the incoming power supply?
[04:45:47] <hatch789_> hal scope I mean?
[04:45:47] <pink_vampire> ok
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[04:46:15] <pink_vampire> it's very heavy but it's on my table now
[04:46:32] <pink_vampire> let me setup the camera
[04:46:38] <pink_vampire> and light!!
[04:46:51] <archivist> I use a real scope for electrical noise
[04:52:48] <hatch789_> I used to have a real scope but not anymore. Is there a way to use HAL Scope to see the incoming power?
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[05:06:09] <pink_vampire> eventuay
[05:06:36] <pink_vampire> eventually i did it
[05:14:07] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/Ky4Orum.png
[05:14:16] <pink_vampire> archivist: SpeedEvil ^
[05:14:32] <pink_vampire> what we can learn from it?
[05:16:39] <pink_vampire> ?
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[05:20:47] <SpeedEvil> Scroll in and out and you get a sense of the height profile of the roughness, as well as the linear extent
[05:21:49] <SpeedEvil> If the height is simply a sawtooth at the frequency the cutter touches the work - advance per rev * edges - then you are simply seeing the toolmarks with perhaps the tool being off-axis
[05:22:09] <SpeedEvil> If you get higher frequencies, you're seeing vibration of some sort
[05:27:52] <pink_vampire> I'm trying now
[05:30:55] <pink_vampire> I have a dial on the microscope in microns
[05:32:10] <pink_vampire> and with 45X10 magnification it's about 2 microns or less on the dial
[05:33:29] <Crom> back at home
[05:33:51] <pink_vampire> so it
[05:35:29] <pink_vampire> the roughness is 2 microns??
[05:35:35] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: ^
[05:36:19] <SpeedEvil> test that
[05:36:26] <pink_vampire> how?
[05:36:28] <SpeedEvil> put a .1mm wire on the thingy
[05:36:31] <SpeedEvil> measure its depth
[05:36:34] <SpeedEvil> Or a bit of paper
[05:37:00] <pink_vampire> my hair is about 50 -60 micron
[05:37:05] <SpeedEvil> Or that
[05:37:28] <pink_vampire> and it's look huge compered to the marks
[05:37:42] <pink_vampire> so I think it's about right..
[05:38:33] <pink_vampire> but surface finish of 2 micros marks it's acceptable?
[05:39:18] <SpeedEvil> In many cases, yes.
[05:39:47] <pink_vampire> for home machine..
[05:39:51] <pink_vampire> I mean
[05:39:54] <SpeedEvil> what are you expecting? you will rarely if ever get a finish you can see yourself in
[05:40:26] <SpeedEvil> Finish depends on tool condition, material, speeds and feeds, lubrication as well as machine
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[05:40:40] <SpeedEvil> If you can't spec what finish you need, then ...
[05:42:24] <pink_vampire> I mean to you think that the machine that I have is better then the engravers like the X carve and such..
[05:43:03] <SpeedEvil> what toolbit were you using at what speeds and feeds.
[05:43:49] <pink_vampire> it was 3/8 end mill 4F and about 40-100 mm/min
[05:43:56] <pink_vampire> mild steel
[05:44:04] <SpeedEvil> what sort of depth of cut?
[05:44:30] <pink_vampire> dept of cut was about 0.3 mm
[05:44:49] <SpeedEvil> my understanding is the x-carve won't come close to that
[05:45:32] <pink_vampire> i took A-lot of small cuts
[05:46:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5040
[05:47:28] <pink_vampire> wow that it SHIT
[05:54:37] <SpeedEvil> To be fair - SS is probably a lot more problematic than mild steel
[05:54:38] <SpeedEvil> but...
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[05:56:07] <pink_vampire> do you think I can cut ss on my machine?
[06:08:33] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvGP-gD5zFU - making a 4 jaw chuck
[06:09:30] <pink_vampire> why woood?/
[06:10:33] <pink_vampire> everything sliding all over
[06:10:50] <pink_vampire> I don't like him
[06:11:33] <pink_vampire> 8:40
[06:11:40] <pink_vampire> he say it!
[06:12:34] <pink_vampire> bottom line 8:40 - 8:50
[06:12:36] <Lowridah> shoulda at least used two nuts
[06:12:48] <SpeedEvil> The point is that the tool is not the point.
[06:13:06] <SpeedEvil> The point is understanding how you might go about doing stuff.
[06:13:23] <SpeedEvil> He made a lathe from screws, nails, shafting, and plywood.
[06:13:32] <Lowridah> yea bootstrapping tools is cool
[06:14:16] <SpeedEvil> And that if you properly understand the forces involved, you can use tools that seem inadequate
[06:14:50] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: but it's soooo cheap to get it
[06:15:10] <SpeedEvil> what?
[06:15:54] <pink_vampire> http://www.grizzly.com/products/5-3-Jaw-Wood-Chuck-5-8-Unthreaded/H8036
[06:16:27] <pink_vampire> http://www.grizzly.com/products/6-4-Jaw-Wood-Chuck-1-x-8-TPI/H8049
[06:16:41] <SpeedEvil> The whole lathe was under that figure
[06:17:04] <pink_vampire> for saving 33.95 you can kill yourself
[06:17:13] <pink_vampire> he is so stupid
[06:19:29] <Lowridah> makers gonna make
[06:20:01] <pink_vampire> he like to make stuff out of wood, even is it's stupid and dangerous
[06:21:21] <pink_vampire> just to see everything slid on the table and saw the belt vibrate like crazy was too much
[06:21:56] <pink_vampire> tool like lathe need to be fix and bolted
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[06:38:39] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7K-pWJcd7A
[06:38:53] <pink_vampire> I need a Shapeoko
[06:38:59] <pink_vampire> my machine is junk,
[06:39:30] <pink_vampire> http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/download/file.php?id=3958
[06:39:40] <pink_vampire> pic of the finish ^^
[06:39:56] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: what do you think ^
[06:40:20] <Lowridah> i have a shapeoko 3 but i'm only maybe 20 hours into cuttign with it
[06:41:23] <pink_vampire> and how it's the surface finish?
[06:41:40] <Lowridah> i'm not sure yet, i'm still learning workflow
[06:41:43] <pink_vampire> you can get close to mirror finish?
[06:42:15] <Lowridah> i've only cut a few usable parts so far and haven't gotten the hang of CAM for finish passes
[06:42:21] <Lowridah> http://i.imgur.com/tptgP4w.jpg
[06:42:47] <Lowridah> the finish on that is horrible
[06:43:04] <pink_vampire> I can see that...
[06:43:21] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/Ky4Orum.png
[06:43:31] <Lowridah> i haven't picked up anything other than 1/4" flat endmills so far and can't really run it much
[06:43:44] <pink_vampire> this is the finish on my defective Z axis
[06:43:51] <Lowridah> it's a bit too loud and messy for my living room so i'm waiting for the weather to clear up to run it on the deck
[06:44:11] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/VtiL3GE.png
[06:44:24] <pink_vampire> this is the actual part
[06:44:37] <SpeedEvil> pink_vampire: why do you think you need mirror finish
[06:44:46] <SpeedEvil> very little machining gets mirror finish
[06:44:57] <Lowridah> i spent 5 minutes sanding that part in my pic and it's very nicely finished
[06:45:08] <Lowridah> i'd rather spend 5 mins post processing than an hour more on the mill
[06:45:08] <SpeedEvil> quite
[06:45:14] <Lowridah> and i'm only 20 hours into milling at all
[06:45:21] <SpeedEvil> very little sanding
[06:45:33] <pink_vampire> I know.
[06:45:48] <Lowridah> on my next big cut i may not even bother with a finish pass since i have power tools that i can use to do it by hand quicker
[06:46:09] <Lowridah> it's a wash since i still can't leave my machine unattended
[06:46:24] <pink_vampire> but I want to do 3d machining and jewelry stuff and you can't sand them down..
[06:47:16] <Lowridah> if i were doing really fine stuff i'd consider making a very small very rigid machine with a small envelope
[06:47:33] <Lowridah> but i'm still too new to this all to be real wise
[06:47:53] <pink_vampire> Lowridah: my machine is tiny!!
[06:48:09] <pink_vampire> it's a bench top mill
[06:48:47] <pink_vampire> [Imgur](
http://i.imgur.com/wWPij14.png)
[06:48:50] <pink_vampire> Lowridah: ^
[06:49:20] <Lowridah> oh yea that's way more capable than a shapeoko
[06:49:38] <Lowridah> likely considerably more rigid at least
[06:50:19] <pink_vampire> but my dovetail on the Z axis have about 0.1 mm of freedom in some spots.
[06:50:57] <pink_vampire> so as you push the cutter into the metal, it's push the Z axis to the side
[06:51:04] <pink_vampire> and it's vibrate.
[06:51:25] <Lowridah> tear down and inspect the linear motion for where the deflection comes from
[06:51:42] <pink_vampire> very easy to say
[06:52:07] <Lowridah> not really, i hand crafted each letter from a larger word
[06:52:27] <Lowridah> i dunno, that's what i'd do but i'm sure its a big task
[06:52:28] <pink_vampire> to fix that I have 3 options.
[06:52:56] <pink_vampire> 1 to send it to be hand scraped - cost about 3000-5000$
[06:53:33] <pink_vampire> 2 to find someone with larger machine and re-cut the dovetails
[06:54:04] <pink_vampire> 3 to remove the dovetails and install linear bearings rails
[06:55:30] <pink_vampire> I want to go with option number 3, but I'm still didn't figure out how to calculate the load in cutting process
[06:55:39] <pink_vampire> Lowridah: SpeedEvil ^
[06:56:36] <Lowridah> i only have experience with belt-actuated routers with simple linear bearing rails but they're easily user-servicable
[06:56:44] <Lowridah> i just can't imagine they're anywhere near as precise
[06:57:18] <Lowridah> i'm too new to it all to be of any use haha
[06:58:03] <pink_vampire> http://i.imgur.com/701peEs.png
[06:58:12] <pink_vampire> this is also from my machine
[06:58:24] <pink_vampire> do you see the poor cutting finish
[06:59:40] <Lowridah> yea
[07:00:12] <Lowridah> that's gotta be hard on the endmill as well
[07:00:30] <pink_vampire> it's just aluminum
[07:00:59] <pink_vampire> it's cut it very fast
[07:02:23] <pink_vampire> it was only 2 passes
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[07:03:18] <pink_vampire> each pass was 1/16"
[07:03:30] <pink_vampire> about 1.5mm"
[07:03:34] <pink_vampire> Lowridah: ^
[07:03:38] <pink_vampire> 1000 RPM
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[07:10:41] <SpeedEvil> Step 0. Try different speeds and feeds to see what it does to the finish
[07:10:48] <SpeedEvil> Before screwing with anything else
[07:11:28] <pink_vampire> SpeedEvil: but I can see the Z axis part move sideways.
[07:14:30] <pink_vampire> ?
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[07:43:26] <CaptHindsight> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku
[07:44:06] <CaptHindsight> or is it a slow death by hearing about this for the next several days?
[07:45:21] <CaptHindsight> is there a psych version of this that just kills the brain slowly?
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[07:55:33] <Deejay> moin
[07:56:17] <pink_vampire> hi Deejay
[07:56:22] <Deejay> hi pinky :)
[07:57:35] <pink_vampire> CaptHindsight: but i'm trying to find a way to fix it
[08:10:44] <archivist> pink_vampire, adjust gib to reduce play...done
[08:11:44] <pink_vampire> but the dovetail cut very poor and crooked
[08:12:27] <archivist> nothing is perfect, deal with it
[08:12:35] <pink_vampire> so even if adjust it, it become loss in some spots.
[08:16:01] <pink_vampire> archivist: so I want to make it better, now if I take a cut I need to do it very shallow cuts and it's wear the end mill fast.
[08:17:03] <pink_vampire> ?
[08:18:58] <archivist> there is a minimum you should cut
[08:19:24] <archivist> less worrying and more doing
[08:19:49] <pink_vampire> I can cut max 0.5mm depth in mild steel..
[08:22:47] <pink_vampire> archivist: what do you think?
[08:23:46] <archivist> your expectations of finish quality are unrealistic
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[08:38:19] <pink_vampire> archivist: the issue with the poor finish come because the freedom in the z axis, just if i make very shallow cuts (0.5mm depth max) i can get "ok" finish.. deeper then that it's start to vibrate and the Z axis block start to get push sideways
[08:38:52] <archivist> you are assuming your Z is causing finish problems
[08:39:03] <archivist> I dont think you are right
[08:39:14] <pink_vampire> i can see it
[08:39:31] <archivist> adjust the gib
[08:40:46] <pink_vampire> because instead of holding the cutter in fixed position it get pushed away
[08:42:23] <pink_vampire> now if i close the gib the bottom section of the Z axis is very stiff but the mid and top are loos
[08:42:46] <pink_vampire> archivist:
[08:43:55] <archivist> if you dont get it right the gib can self tighten as it is tapered, the end screws have to be tight
[08:46:01] <pink_vampire> i know.. but the problem come from the dovetails on the column
[08:47:45] <pink_vampire> there is 2 screws that hold the gib in place. both of them close up to the gib
[08:48:52] <pink_vampire> archivist: ^
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[09:32:32] <bedah> hi, noob linuxcnc user here. did some mdi, used some of the python scripts to generate some pockets and texts. now i loaded a png and it takes ages
[09:34:01] <bedah> using debian 8 on my faster notebook, any chance to get linuxcnc running here, for simulation purposes?
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[09:41:10] <archivist> slow python cam is just slow
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[10:09:16] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24hHwV6SejI
[10:09:32] <pink_vampire> I'm sooo happy now with may machine!!
[10:10:28] <pink_vampire> my*
[10:10:34] <pink_vampire> archivist: ^
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[10:17:28] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YQr-jDIFDE
[10:20:20] <pink_vampire> high speed spindle, and even power feed cutting aluminum.
[10:22:05] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wK3z3miqIXI
[10:22:14] <pink_vampire> od grinder
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[10:36:21] <minibnz> hey guys need some direction.. i am trying to configure a ATC... can anyone give me a quick rundown of how to configure it? i have found information telling me what variables hold the useful information, but how do i use them? do i use them in a python script or the classicladder..
[10:39:06] <minibnz> i found this
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ToolChangerImplementation
[10:39:07] <minibnz> but it says the details are out of date..
[10:49:30] <pink_vampire> I'm just replace the tools by hand.
[10:50:04] <pink_vampire> minibnz: ^
[10:51:41] <minibnz> yeah thats fine if you are sitting there watching it.. but i have a carousel that i want to use..
[10:52:09] <pink_vampire> I don't :(
[10:52:21] <minibnz> i want to automate it so i dont have to sit thee and wait to change tools..
[10:52:21] <pink_vampire> I have milling machine.
[10:52:52] <pink_vampire> what kind a machine is that?
[10:52:55] <minibnz> i also have a milling machine.. just need to make it use the carousel
[10:53:11] <minibnz> i have a seig X2 mini mill with my own carousel
[10:54:40] <archivist> you should find a few classicladder tool changer examples out there
[10:55:24] <pink_vampire> X2 it's like the g0704?
[10:55:46] <minibnz> archivist thanks... thats the nugget of info i was after.. i have no problem programming the classic ladder PLC
[10:56:09] <minibnz> Pink_vampire counldn't say i have never seen a g0704
[10:56:34] <pink_vampire> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704
[10:56:57] <pink_vampire> minibnz: ^
[10:57:19] <minibnz> yeah its just like every other mini mill out there..
[10:58:54] <pink_vampire> so how did you make the tool changer?
[10:59:01] <minibnz> only thing that changes is the color and length of the axis.
[11:00:41] <pink_vampire> how do you open and close the drawbar?
[11:00:49] <minibnz> you make a tray that spins that holds the tools.. and add a way to release the collet. i am using bellevile springs under my drawbar bolt. a ram/lever pushes the bolt head down and the collet open.. now i have to program the carousel to spin to the right spot and have the spindle come down to pickup/drop off the tool
[11:01:29] <minibnz> my ram also lifts the bottom of the spring stack so it does not put any pressure on the spindle bearings.
[11:02:09] <minibnz> similar to how hossmachine.com has done it..
[11:02:57] <minibnz> hoss does not lift the spring stack from the spindle but thats ok with him.. i dont like the idea of putting 1000kg of pressure on my spindle bearings so i added the lifting as well as the pusshing down
[11:03:00] <pink_vampire> you also use compressed air for that?
[11:03:12] <minibnz> electric actuator.
[11:03:23] <pink_vampire> cool!
[11:03:37] <pink_vampire> do you have a picture of that?
[11:03:48] <minibnz> i cant run a air compressor in my flat.. the neighbours would kill me the first time it cuts in, in the middle of the night.
[11:04:03] <minibnz> no pictures yet.. i might add it to my blog once it all works
[11:04:09] <pink_vampire> I have the same problem :)
[11:04:19] <minibnz> i have pictures of the carousel on the blog.
[11:04:25] <pink_vampire> blog?
[11:04:28] <pink_vampire> link...
[11:04:53] <minibnz> http://minibnzreprap.blogspot.com.au/p/x2-mini-mill-cnc-build.html
[11:05:12] <minibnz> its only a 3d model on there but you can see what i am working with
[11:06:41] <pink_vampire> very nice!!!
[11:06:47] <minibnz> basicaly this platter sits on the end of the bed consuming about 60mm of bed.. plan is to drive the bed to the end rotate to the desired tool and open the collet and lower the head then close the collet
[11:06:57] <pink_vampire> how the tool holder slide out?
[11:07:20] <archivist> minibnz, "being pain well"
[11:07:53] <pink_vampire> -1 deg!
[11:08:01] <minibnz> archivist ?
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[11:08:15] <pink_vampire> I'm freezing!
[11:08:30] <pink_vampire> going to turn on the heater!
[11:09:08] <minibnz> a stepper rotates the platter and there is a oval track that pushes out the slides. that way it clears the tools either side.. means i get to have more tools on a smaller platter
[11:09:23] <archivist> minibnz, a tyop at the top of your page
[11:10:17] <minibnz> ahh i see thakns will fix that.. but it was a pain :)
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[11:10:40] <pink_vampire> "and there is a oval track that pushes out the slide"
[11:10:57] <pink_vampire> I'm not sure what do you mean..
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[11:14:31] <__rob2> how am I meant to line up seperate passes when cutting external threads ?
[11:14:42] <__rob2> this micro lathe has no indicator to know when to engage the feed
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[11:15:15] <__rob2> only way I can think is leave it engaged, stop the lathe and wind it back while always engaged
[11:15:23] <__rob2> not sure if there is a better way than this
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[11:16:26] <archivist> winding back is an accepted way
[11:16:44] <archivist> make an indicator first!
[11:16:46] <minibnz> __rob2 thats how i cut threads on my dads lathe.. leave it engaged, do a pass, stop wind back the cutter a bit then wind backwards, rinse and repeat
[11:17:09] <archivist> or just use a die
[11:17:27] <__rob2> make an indicator ?
[11:17:52] <minibnz> <pink_vampire> there is a plate under the slides, the slides have a pin that runs in the oval shaped track/groove in the plate, as the platters are pushed around they follow the oval track, this pushes them out on one side.
[11:18:02] <archivist> it is just a gear to mesh with the leadscrew
[11:18:12] <__rob2> what I meant is like this guy
[11:18:13] <__rob2> https://youtu.be/73E75eZU3Do?t=403
[11:18:40] <__rob2> hes got a readout of when to engage
[11:19:03] <archivist> yes that is merely a small gear on the end of the shaft
[11:19:13] <__rob2> ohh right, handy
[11:19:37] <archivist> helical gear if done correctly
[11:19:56] <__rob2> yup, might just look around for one ready to go
[11:20:12] <__rob2> how good is that usually compared to constant engagement ?
[11:20:19] <archivist> same
[11:21:03] <minibnz> oh thats what that little wheely thing is for...
[11:21:04] <archivist> cnc beats hand method by a mile
[11:21:18] <__rob2> no doubt
[11:21:29] <__rob2> not converted this mini thing
[11:22:07] <archivist> the multiple marks on the dial is because you can get away with 1/2 or 1/4 rev of leadscrew
[11:23:06] <archivist> or be a fraidy cat and always engage on the same mark
[11:23:23] <__rob2> yea - i'll go with the later :)
[11:23:32] <__rob2> at least untill i've turned out a good thread
[11:23:48] <archivist> or mill your thread
[11:23:59] <minibnz> if the therad is short i dont have a problem with constant engagement... for longer threads back and forth can get a bit tiresome.
[11:24:23] <__rob2> its literally an M5 on the end of some 5mm silver steel rod
[11:24:26] <__rob2> like 8mm
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[11:24:30] <archivist> I added a handwheel to the headstock for one job
[11:24:48] <archivist> m5, use a die
[11:25:40] <minibnz> make a holder for the die in the tailstock if you want the thread really square :)
[11:26:26] <archivist> I use the tail stock to start it off square
[11:27:56] <minibnz> ahh jusst but it up to the tailstock
[11:28:00] <minibnz> nice..
[11:29:11] <archivist> some of the cheaper dies are terrible so even that may force it to be wrong
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[11:33:32] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKBVx6QzTvE
[11:34:00] <pink_vampire> she have more tools then all of us
[11:35:08] <Sync_> how come?
[11:35:35] <Sync_> looks like a regular woodshop with a small electronics part
[11:37:06] <pink_vampire> she know what is a dado blade.
[11:39:29] <pink_vampire> maybe i need to make also a youtube channel..
[11:45:08] <minibnz> there is something to be said about hot chicks doing work :) its great..
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[11:46:37] <minibnz> actually they dont even need to be that hot.. a chick that knows how to use the tools correctly is refreshing enough.. i just dont see enough of it..
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[11:47:07] <pink_vampire> re send
[11:51:41] <pink_vampire> minibnz: I'm wondering now...
[11:54:33] <pink_vampire> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MVQFPNCdkg
[11:55:03] <pink_vampire> woww look at that finish with the facemill!
[11:57:57] <minibnz> yeah that is really nice... much nicer than the finish i get on my fly cutter.. that gets a pretty good surface its really shiny.. but not as good at that face mill..
[11:58:17] <minibnz> i guess it has a lot to do with the inserts.. as opposed to shaped tool steel
[12:01:19] <minibnz> i have just purchased ballscrews for my X and Y axis... going to a mates plae tomorrow morning to machine the ends to suit my mill.. hope that gives me some more speed..
[12:01:55] <pink_vampire> what do you mean you go there?
[12:02:26] <pink_vampire> the guy that sell the pm-25?
[12:02:57] <pink_vampire> so you think he can help me to fix the Z axis?
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[12:04:02] <minibnz> no.. im going to my mates place to use his really nice lathe to machine up the ends of the ballscrews to suit my mill. he is a mechanical engineer and has really nice tools, my are toys in comparison.
[12:06:11] <pink_vampire> ok....
[12:06:15] <minibnz> my dad has lathe but its pretty old now.. i tried to use it for something not important and couldn't drill a hold in the center of a bar for the life of me.. gotta get that rebuilt, when it was new 20yrs ago it was great.
[12:06:34] <minibnz> head bearings are gone..
[12:08:32] <pink_vampire> I the only one in my family that like to do stuff. all the other not very technical
[12:10:40] <minibnz> my dad drove trucks for a long time, but every moment spare he was up in the garrage working on his 1928 ford.. now that he has retired he has not stopped building them.. he has four now.. and i just love building things. im a EE by trade but enjoy building things of all types.. working with my hands in general not so much the manual labour thou..
[12:12:18] <pink_vampire> I like to work with my hands but don't like to damage my skin
[12:12:23] <pink_vampire> so cnc :)
[12:12:33] <minibnz> everytime my parents would go off on holidays i would be up in the garrage building things that he would not approve of.. made a .22 pistol one weekend while he was away.. mostly out of welding rods but it worked really nice, just looked like somehting out of madmax
[12:13:19] <pink_vampire> OMG
[12:13:27] <minibnz> i have since cut that up in to little bits and recyled the scraps.. as thats really illeagal here in AU.. i have since got my gun license and now have proper guns..
[12:14:39] <pink_vampire> I don't have any weapon..
[12:14:49] <pink_vampire> red dress and heels?
[12:15:11] <minibnz> that pistol was great.. loud but great fun.. i modified it to take a plastic coke bottle stuffed with paper, to screw on the end. it would give 25shots dead quiet, all you could hear was the hammer and a little puff sound..
[12:15:16] <pink_vampire> my BF call it a weapon
[12:15:26] <minibnz> heheheh yeah that would do it..
[12:15:50] <minibnz> that would probably stop any red blooded man in his tracks..
[12:16:13] <minibnz> better than a gun :)
[12:17:00] <pink_vampire> I'm far from being a model
[12:18:05] <minibnz> dont got a be a model.. have a good personality and be happy with yourself..
[12:18:44] <pink_vampire> I'm not ugly or something..
[12:18:54] <minibnz> self confidence is a way better attribute..
[12:19:46] <minibnz> knowing how to use tools properly is a bonus :)
[12:20:59] <pink_vampire> i dont have the ideal beauty of blonde straight hair and blue eyes
[12:21:27] <pink_vampire> I'm not even ginger..
[12:22:05] <minibnz> oh ginga ninja's are weakspot of mine.. :p
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[12:23:14] <pink_vampire> I have a loong brunette wavy / curly hair
[12:23:36] <minibnz> that still works too..
[12:23:47] <pink_vampire> long nails :)
[12:23:58] <pink_vampire> small body
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[12:26:47] <pink_vampire> are you married?
[12:26:55] <pink_vampire> minibnz: ^
[12:27:08] <minibnz> no but have a long term GF that keeps me happy
[12:27:46] <minibnz> and she is gettin clucky.. not really sold on the whole lets have kids thing..
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[12:29:30] <pink_vampire> send you pm
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[13:56:56] <jthornton> morning
[14:07:15] <Deejay> hi
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[14:13:48] <Tom_itx> morning
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[14:28:10] <gregcnc> a friend of mine reground a table and slide off a chinese mill of some sort. He had to shim it several thousandths to get it close to true to fix the ways, then fixed the table.
[14:28:28] <gregcnc> the hand scraping was not scraped at all, but just to look like it
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[14:36:51] <jthornton> two more days of rain...
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[14:39:24] <Sync_> gregcnc: they just flake it so it looks like it is scraped
[14:39:30] <Sync_> but that is obvious from the start
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[14:53:04] <OdinYggd> Its obvious by the surface quality and the number of contact points if it is scraped or not
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[15:02:57] <Sync_> nah, with the chinese machines you still see the machining marks under the flaking
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[15:14:15] <robin_sz> interesting ... there is now an FPGA dev baord for the rapi pi
[15:14:20] <robin_sz> *raspi
[15:15:30] <os1r1s> robin_sz There are a few of them
[15:15:38] <os1r1s> One for the bbb
[15:15:39] <os1r1s> too
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[15:17:32] <robin_sz> a working stepgen should be possible
[15:19:47] <robin_sz> very please with my Mesa 5i25 and 7i77 install ... was quite straightforward
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[15:23:40] <robin_sz> just need to solve the issue of being able to pause the thing now, with the head up
[15:25:28] <robin_sz> going to have a go at this first:
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Jog-While-Paused if I can gigure out how to apply it to 2.7.4
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[15:27:32] <gregcnc> hmm what do you use it for?
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[15:51:06] <robin_sz> gregcnc, router
[15:51:24] <robin_sz> need to lift the router head out of the work when I hit pause.
[15:51:47] <robin_sz> otherwise, Bad Things (tm) happen
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[15:52:31] <robin_sz> dgarr, just to say thanks for the xhc stuff, works perfectly, much better than the last version I tried
[15:52:42] <gregcnc> makes sense. how often do you pause in the middle of a cut?
[15:52:42] <robin_sz> very smooth in jog
[15:53:01] <robin_sz> gregcnc, when stuff starts to go wrong ;)
[15:53:37] <robin_sz> gregcnc, I often have progs that run for 5 or 6 hours
[15:54:40] <dgarr> robin_sz: on 2.7 you might want run and study the simulator example for a fixed z retract,use the config picker to try SampleConfigurations/sim/axis/moveoff/6_zretract
[15:55:10] <dgarr> bbl
[15:55:11] <robin_sz> looking ...
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[16:20:36] <robin_sz> hmm ... thats going to be pretty close to what I want .. a few things not quite in the right order, but workable
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[18:58:40] <JT-Shop> I hate it when I have instructions that say "after removing the tape strips remove as much glue residue as possible" my brain translates that to "you must remove every speck of glue residue"
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[19:05:31] <maxcnc> hi all
[19:05:48] <maxcnc> wonderful day first bikeride today
[19:09:03] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: ocd much or badexperiences with former work descriptions?
[19:15:25] <JT-Shop> ocd
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[19:21:43] <maxcnc> have a nice wekend BYE
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[19:23:38] <Duc> Im somewhat wishing I would have just bought a roll around tool box to mount my monitor and control panel
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[19:34:42] <_methods> that's what i did for mine
[19:34:56] <_methods> bought one of those cheap harbor freight roll around toolboxes
[19:36:29] <Duc> but now Ive invested to much in the new solution that should work fine
[19:36:59] <Duc> picked up a spare tire spindle for making swing out tire racks
[19:40:18] <Duc> Mounting the spindle to the base of the bridgeport then having a arm come out and then up
[19:41:03] <Sync_> meh, information about how to coat steel with ceramic is hard to come by
[19:42:27] <robin_sz> who would have guest?
[19:43:27] <Duc> what are you trying to coat
[19:43:47] <evil_ren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_porcelain_enamel
[19:43:54] <evil_ren> there are two references
[19:44:09] <robin_sz> *guessed
[19:44:18] <robin_sz> I only know two ways
[19:44:30] <robin_sz> HVOF and plasma spraying
[19:44:51] <evil_ren> it cures on contact?
[19:44:56] <evil_ren> thats pretty cool
[19:45:13] <evil_ren> i would have thought it was some sort of spray and bake process
[19:46:32] <Sync_> Duc: exhaust piping
[19:46:32] <robin_sz> enamel?
[19:46:51] <Duc> think most times its like cerakote paint
[19:46:59] <robin_sz> you paint it on then bake at 530c
[19:47:01] <Sync_> no, I want thermal insulation
[19:47:11] <Sync_> I think I have the process figured out, but eh
[19:47:17] <robin_sz> wut?
[19:47:22] <robin_sz> thermal insulating?
[19:47:38] <robin_sz> enamel is not thermal insulating
[19:47:51] <robin_sz> its pretty much solid glass
[19:48:10] <Sync_> slurry spraying MgO with soluble glass
[19:48:25] <robin_sz> yep and then bake at 600c or so
[19:48:36] <robin_sz> but it wont insulate
[19:50:47] <robin_sz> the standard procedure on race bikes if the tuning is a bit low is to wrap the exhaust in asbestos/glass woven colth and wire it on.
[19:51:09] <Sync_> well, flame spraying would be the other option
[19:51:16] <robin_sz> yep
[19:51:25] <robin_sz> but it deposits a few microns
[19:51:36] <Sync_> but apparently MgO will produce high quality coatings
[19:51:46] <Sync_> with just slurry spraying
[19:51:50] <Sync_> and does not need any sintering
[19:51:58] <robin_sz> good luck with that one
[19:53:09] <robin_sz> if you build up any thickness beyond a few microns, its going to crack off when the pipes warm up
[19:53:21] <Sync_> well, it is what the local ceramic coating specialist suggested
[19:53:31] <Sync_> the CTE matches steel well
[19:53:46] <robin_sz> and thats before we get to the pounding from the exhaust pulses
[19:53:58] <Sync_> I did some thermal cycling on a few test pieces and they did not flake
[19:54:09] <robin_sz> well, let us know how it works out
[19:54:24] <robin_sz> I'll be very surprised if it offers any significant insulation
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[19:57:40] <robin_sz> why don't you just test a piece ... heat one side up with a flame, put your finger on the other side, see if it works
[19:58:06] <Sync_> that is not the point
[19:58:28] <Sync_> if it lowers the heat loss through the wall, it works
[19:58:34] <Sync_> it might not do a *lot*
[19:59:16] <Duc> why not wrap the pipes with insulation
[20:00:35] <robin_sz> then just accept is is for purely cosmetic reasons
[20:00:58] <robin_sz> for performance, glass or asbestos wrap is the baby
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[20:01:40] <Sync_> then why do we see lower under bonnet temperatures and a slight increase in exhaust temperature with our plasma sprayed sample?
[20:01:40] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[20:02:17] <Sync_> it's just not cost effective during development to have all prototypes sprayed
[20:02:59] <Loetmichel> how about a coat of aerogel for insulation?
[20:03:15] <robin_sz> depends on what your aim is
[20:03:23] <robin_sz> performance or looks
[20:03:50] <DaViruz> guessing lower surface emmissivity. exhaust manifolds are hot enough to make that a big contributor to heat loss
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[20:04:13] <robin_sz> a few microns of cermaic coating is not goign to make a big difference
[20:04:25] <DaViruz> insulation against convection losses will probably be close to immeasurable (is that a word?)
[20:04:52] <robin_sz> mmm, it will be measurable on a dyno I suspect, but very small
[20:05:25] <robin_sz> it might raise the exhaust exit temp 5 degrees I guess
[20:06:42] <Sync_> yup, it modifies the emissivity of the piping, which is enough to help
[20:07:09] <robin_sz> but a glass/asbestos wrap would help more
[20:07:27] <robin_sz> which is what the race guys use.
[20:10:13] <Sync_> corrugated foil is also not bad, it is all about radiation
[20:10:22] <Sync_> but it is annoying to use
[20:10:39] <robin_sz> as I said, it depends on your goals. Looks or performance
[20:11:06] <robin_sz> the race guys just use whatever works best
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[20:12:28] <robin_sz> on 2 stroke tuned exhausts you can shift the tuning point a few hundred RPM just by wrapping the downpipes
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[20:14:05] <Sync_> well, most of the current stuff I see uses either ceramic spraying or corrugated foil
[20:15:19] <robin_sz> on race cars?
[20:15:23] <Sync_> yes
[20:16:01] <robin_sz> I'd put money on glass/assbestos out performing either of those
[20:16:21] <robin_sz> ceramic is usually 25 to 40 microns
[20:17:14] <DaViruz> it's not about the thickness, it's about the surface. insulating against convection lossing isn't everything, in fact it's barely half
[20:17:26] <robin_sz> with a conductivity of around 0.45 W/m/K
[20:17:47] <robin_sz> mmm, id say radiation losses are more than convection losses
[20:18:06] <Sync_> yes, which is why corrugated foil works
[20:18:18] <Sync_> and thin ceramics
[20:18:25] <robin_sz> nope
[20:18:53] <robin_sz> OK, heres the deal
[20:19:16] <robin_sz> lower surface temp = lower radiation losses
[20:19:25] <robin_sz> so, we'll get a steel pipe
[20:19:43] <robin_sz> you can spray your side with 40 microns of whatver
[20:19:58] <robin_sz> I'll put 5mm of glass/asbestos on my side
[20:20:09] <robin_sz> we stick a propane torch down it
[20:20:14] <robin_sz> first one to let go is a pussy
[20:20:21] <gregcnc> lol
[20:20:28] <Sync_> that is not how it works
[20:20:47] <robin_sz> right
[20:21:15] <DaViruz> that really only compares heat loss by contact
[20:21:22] <robin_sz> mmm
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[20:21:59] <robin_sz> radiation losses are broadlydirectly proportional to surface tem
[20:22:03] <robin_sz> for most materials
[20:22:22] <Sync_> in the region where exhausts operate, it is dominant
[20:22:30] <DaViruz> (i do agree it would probably be a better overall heat insulator though)
[20:22:32] <Sync_> which is 500°C or more
[20:22:44] <Sync_> (in a race application ofc, which is what I do)
[20:23:08] <robin_sz> im unconvinced
[20:23:29] <DaViruz> in an application where there is high airflow, a porous glass fiber probably won't be a great insulator either
[20:23:51] <robin_sz> it usually has an aluminium foil wrap on the outer
[20:23:56] <robin_sz> and is wired in place
[20:23:57] <DaViruz> the insulation mechanism is basically that it restricts the convection currents of air around hot objects
[20:24:16] <DaViruz> those convection currents will probably be way less then other airflows in a vehicle application
[20:24:24] <DaViruz> oh.
[20:24:50] <robin_sz> all I can say is even today, its what you see on works race bikes
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[20:26:41] <DaViruz> i've seen a mix of both wrapped exhaust components and ceramic coatings, i'd say i've also seen a shift from the former to the latter. in race car applications that is
[20:27:05] <DaViruz> the wrappings i've seen haven't had any foil blanketing thoguh
[20:27:23] <robin_sz> I suspect the ceramic is more a fashion thing
[20:27:46] <DaViruz> well, it has documented effects and they are not as small as you assume
[20:27:53] <Sync_> as you have said, if it would not be worth doing racers would not do it
[20:28:29] <robin_sz> I don't believe real racers would use anything other than the one that gives the best performance
[20:28:29] <DaViruz> and it's very light.
[20:28:31] <Sync_> and I don't think BMW, Honda F1 or NISMO are using it because it is a fashionthing
[20:28:45] <robin_sz> shrug
[20:28:59] <robin_sz> id be interestd to see figures
[20:29:16] <robin_sz> same pipe, same heat input, measure exit temp
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[20:29:31] <robin_sz> for each coating type
[20:29:34] <robin_sz> and a wrap
[20:33:16] <DaViruz> a lot of the ones i find at a glanze look kind of bullshitty
[20:34:20] <DaViruz> http://www.zircotec.com/rte_img_large_169.jpg
[20:34:28] <DaViruz> i would like to know how they made that measurement
[20:35:24] <DaViruz> if they just used a shitty ir temp gun the temperature is way inaccurate, but it does show a 33% loss in emmissivity which would account for a lot less heat loss
[20:37:01] <robin_sz> Thats basically the problem, all the data seems to be on bullshit sites run by the companies themselves
[20:37:43] <Sync_> well, as I said, I can confirm that the coatings reduce heat loss
[20:38:15] <robin_sz> I agree with you, they certainly do.
[20:38:33] <robin_sz> Just not as much as a wrap.
[20:39:11] <robin_sz> from everything I can find, it looks like they are a popular way of taking money of people who are trying to "improve"their cars
[20:40:02] <DaViruz> well, you need a good reason to want to increase the exhaust temperature in the first place, generally it won't make any difference at all, and may well be detrimental
[20:40:17] <robin_sz> it can improve scavenge in 4st
[20:40:35] <robin_sz> and give a little more efficiency on the turbo
[20:40:44] <DaViruz> yep
[20:40:49] <robin_sz> if you wrap the block to trubo section
[20:41:15] <robin_sz> in bikes, its usually done if you manage to get the engine breathing a little better
[20:41:25] <robin_sz> and need to increase the tune on the pipes
[20:41:46] <robin_sz> 2st pipes are "tuned" to a particualr rpm
[20:42:12] <robin_sz> wrapping the pipe can move that upwards a bit and save modifying the pipes.
[20:42:56] <robin_sz> but mostly, I would imagine it improves the performance of the custom shops bottom line
[20:43:57] <robin_sz> it looks like they are being used in aviation, so they must work to an extent
[20:45:14] <DaViruz> in gas turbines it is massively used
[20:51:37] <OdinYggd> Tuned pipes?
[20:51:38] <OdinYggd> Wat.
[20:51:41] <OdinYggd> No they aren't
[20:51:52] <OdinYggd> The canisters you see that look like a 2 stroke tuned muffler are actually flame cans
[20:51:57] <OdinYggd> and that's 1970s tech jet power
[20:52:06] <OdinYggd> Modern engines do not use them, in favor of an annular ring combustor
[20:53:33] <OdinYggd> The deal with a 2 stroke tuned pipe is they use a geometry that expands the escaping gases, then compresses them again- in the process creating a suction followed by a pressure wave
[20:53:43] <OdinYggd> which acts like a blower to force extra fuel and air through a 2-stroke
[20:54:45] <DaViruz> i think you have no idea what we were talking about
[20:55:13] <DaViruz> ceramic coatings are massively used in gas turbines. not tuned pipes
[20:55:31] <OdinYggd> Ah.
[20:55:33] <OdinYggd> lol yeah
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[22:12:38] <Deejay> gn8
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[23:01:50] <CaptHindsight> since when do tuna have pipes?
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[23:40:19] <witnit> happy weekend!
[23:40:28] <gregcnc> my pncconf generated hal for spindle quad encoder doesn't work. It reads spindle speed and counts, but spindle coordinated moves fail.
[23:52:26] <Tom_itx> tweak it manually
[23:52:55] <Tom_itx> encoders have an index pulse?
[23:53:01] <gregcnc> of course, but I haven't figured out what needs to be changed
[23:53:03] <gregcnc> yes
[23:54:23] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/
[23:54:28] <Tom_itx> mine is there for comparison
){kind=link}
