#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-12-25

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[00:21:20] <FloppyDisk> @ contract_pilot: why thanks to gregcnc? He's building a ton of machines?
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[00:25:51] <enleth> well I snatched the last 7i77 in stock this week
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[01:09:57] <Duc> enleth: that must be a good feeling
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[01:12:51] <PetefromTn_> Hey Folks Merry Christmas :D
[01:13:33] <Duc> litte warm for christmas but awesome for garage work
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[01:14:11] <PetefromTn_> yeah man we are in the 70's here!
[01:14:18] <PetefromTn_> its FREAKING FANTASTIC!!
[01:14:29] <Duc> yep AL is the same way
[01:15:14] <Duc> which is good since I forgot to buy more propane for the garage
[01:16:10] <PetefromTn_> hopefully tomorrow is beautifully warm again and we can take our Christmas Kayaks out on a local lake and enjoy some Fishing!!
[01:17:36] <Duc> its suppose to be
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[01:18:44] <Duc> guess its time to power up the mill to see if I wired the other 2 servos correctly
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[01:19:01] <PetefromTn_> good luck LOL
[01:21:25] <Duc> just hoping the I/O were exactly the same. I did spot checks but there is always the one wire
[01:26:10] <Duc> PetefromTn: Have you been to the industrial recycler by your area?
[01:26:21] <PetefromTn_> no not really
[01:26:56] <Duc> Ive heard about it but 2 hr each way would suck if its was over priced or bad
[01:30:33] <PetefromTn_> Not sure what you are talking about really
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[01:38:01] <enleth> Duc: sure it is
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[01:41:06] <Duc> enleth: hell I was estatic when fedex delivered mine on monday
[01:41:40] <enleth> I'm expecting the delivery within 2 weeks
[01:41:42] <Duc> PetefromTn: Ill find the link to the place
[01:42:21] <enleth> PetefromTn_: are you in the US?
[01:43:31] <enleth> PetefromTn_: well I guess so by the temperature given in F, so if you don't mind, I have a question I've actually been asking for a long time of different people on the internet and never got a definitive answer.
[01:43:51] <enleth> Why do some American English speakers capitalize random words in their sentences?
[01:43:58] <enleth> Like "Fishing" in this case.
[01:44:52] <PetefromTn_> Just to annoy you foreigners ;)
[01:45:00] <CaptHindsight> wEll It CoUld be WorSe :)
[01:45:04] <enleth> It appears to be some kind of old mannerism, as the whole US Constitution is written in that manner and I think the Brits also did that a long time ago, but I'm pretty sure this is not a rule in any kind of modern English
[01:45:25] <enleth> People just... do this.
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[01:45:28] <enleth> For some reason.
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[01:45:59] <toastydeath> enleth, english has become more standardized over the years - there's no governing body, it's governed entirely by usage
[01:46:38] <toastydeath> the older capitalization seems to appear when the speaker is referring to An Idea or general concept rather than the plain meaning
[01:46:47] <enleth> And every time I see it, it reminds me of the US Constitution and I imagine George Washington saying that while reading the draft out loud.
[01:47:02] <toastydeath> the random capitalization is actually coming back, as well
[01:47:04] <enleth> toastydeath: yeah, that does seem to be in line with past usage
[01:47:38] <toastydeath> i personally like it because it helps make one's meaning clearer
[01:47:43] <CaptHindsight> where is the example of this randomization that you are referring to?
[01:47:55] <enleth> CaptHindsight: well it's not "random" of course
[01:48:00] <enleth> I can see the pattern
[01:48:25] <enleth> But some people take this to a ridiculous extreme
[01:48:28] <CaptHindsight> have a link or was it something posted in the channel?
[01:48:29] <toastydeath> CaptHindsight, Ben Franklin is a really notable example of someone who does it
[01:48:34] <toastydeath> http://www.shmoop.com/autobiography-benjamin-franklin/writing-style.html
[01:48:57] <Duc> PetefromTn_: Im trying to find the location again
[01:49:08] <enleth> CaptHindsight: PetefromTn_, his comment on Fishing
[01:49:19] <enleth> CaptHindsight: that's what reminded me of this now
[01:49:59] <CaptHindsight> oh, thats just for IRC
[01:50:36] <CaptHindsight> it's pretty laid back and casual in here, spelling and grammar are pretty lax
[01:50:47] <toastydeath> the resurgance of things like that are actually a big emerging topic in linguistics
[01:50:51] <PetefromTn_> I love that it annoys :D
[01:51:03] <CaptHindsight> but in the 200 year old example it's a different example
[01:51:18] <toastydeath> it's being used in a very similar way in historical examples as it is on irc
[01:52:16] <toastydeath> and, oddly enough, it was much more prominent in letter writers than in novelists
[01:52:22] <enleth> CaptHindsight: well I'm not expecting anyone to be following Webster to the letter here, but at the same time, one wouldn't really do that if they weren't somewhat accustomed to that
[01:52:24] <CaptHindsight> plus English is always evolving, the "rules" as taught in schools are not permanent rules
[01:52:28] <toastydeath> so there are a ton of interesting parallels
[01:52:35] <enleth> CaptHindsight: I'm just curious about how it works
[01:53:24] <toastydeath> the "formal"/perscriptivist attitude towards english removes a large oppertunity for conveying tone and inflection
[01:54:05] <toastydeath> there is a push to study IRC/letter-writing english differently than archival/novelist english
[01:54:24] <Duc> its no different then formal french or spanish in school but in the real world its different
[01:54:41] <enleth> toastydeath: what's interesting that some groups of native English speakers do that, others don't and I *think* it's more of a US thing in modern communication
[01:55:14] <enleth> Being a non-native, I'm interested in things like that, as it helps me understand how the language is used by native speakers
[01:55:26] <toastydeath> i side with the linugists who think it goes deeper than that, where the view is that communication-written english is completely different and should be viewed as its own language like ASL
[01:55:31] <enleth> *is that
[01:55:56] <toastydeath> i.e. that people who assert that the language used on IRC and similar is somehow "incorrect" are actually unable to speak the language
[01:55:59] <CaptHindsight> it's interesting how English is taught in foreign countries
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[01:56:51] <toastydeath> for instance, personally: I grew up on the internet, and a huge amount of my communication was via text from a fairly early agea
[01:56:52] <toastydeath> *age
[01:57:12] <toastydeath> when someone insists on speaking in full sentences, with punctuation and capitalization... they sound autistic to me.
[01:57:27] <enleth> toastydeath: I'd draw the line at being unable to spell shit and form a complex sentence, you can really see whether someone just doesn't give a crap at the moment or really is unable to use proper English
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[01:57:43] <toastydeath> oh, sure - i'm not excusing flagrant disregard for clear communication
[01:57:49] <toastydeath> "lol how r u bby"
[01:57:49] <PetefromTn_> Well Merry Christmas everyone good night..
[01:58:03] <CaptHindsight> I had a friend in China that used to always say " In my mind" rather than "I think"
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[01:58:16] <enleth> Not giving a crap at the moment is perfectly OK, I switch back and forth between this and writing what I think is proper English all the time
[01:58:37] <toastydeath> enleth, i think it's more serious than that
[01:58:42] <enleth> CaptHindsight: I guess that's just how they say it in Chinese
[01:59:01] <CaptHindsight> enleth: nah, they were just taught wrong
[01:59:05] <toastydeath> I'm goin to type the same sentence two different ways - read them and tell me if you can tell the difference
[01:59:11] <toastydeath> this is a very serious sentence
[01:59:15] <toastydeath> This is a very serious sentence.
[01:59:26] <CaptHindsight> <-- will read it while frowning
[01:59:31] <toastydeath> hahaha
[01:59:36] <enleth> CaptHindsight: sometimes you can tell someone's native language just reading their English, with no other data
[01:59:59] <enleth> I can spot most Slavic language users that way and tell some of them apart.
[02:00:08] <toastydeath> i love foreign speakers, because they bring new ways of using the same words
[02:00:22] <toastydeath> that i would not have thought of
[02:00:54] <toastydeath> using different grammatical structure and syntax
[02:01:11] <CaptHindsight> some people have a way with words and others well ... not have way
[02:01:17] <toastydeath> hahaha.
[02:01:36] <enleth> Unfortunately, Polish people butcher English in ways that I just cannot comprehend by any sensible standard, even Russians produce more coherent English when they try to use it and don't know shit.
[02:01:58] <toastydeath> Russians are great, imo
[02:02:07] <toastydeath> because the mistakes make a beautiful sense
[02:02:17] <CaptHindsight> you can never trust the Russians :)
[02:02:32] <enleth> In both cases, those people are actually still using their native language, just substituting English words
[02:03:02] <toastydeath> sure, but i think that's amazing because there is a flow to it
[02:03:27] <toastydeath> they're still completely eloquent and expressive, just in a new and different way
[02:03:38] <enleth> Yeah, Russian English is funny in its own way but quite logical
[02:04:11] <toastydeath> i think that is the core of writing for real-time communication; there is no prescriptivism, you're not bound by "commas go here, this is capitalized"
[02:04:20] <toastydeath> you can use those elements to create an effect instead
[02:04:29] <CaptHindsight> so what's everyone up to for xmas eve?
[02:04:39] <toastydeath> ...sitting on irc talking about language =(
[02:05:13] <enleth> Ate a lot, drinking a beer to help all that pass through now.
[02:05:54] <CaptHindsight> Santa should be over eastern South America by now
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[02:07:16] <Duc> probably going for a walk to see the christmas lights soon
[02:07:56] <CaptHindsight> it's been to warm for snow here recently
[02:08:30] <toastydeath> i wore a t-shirt today
[02:08:34] <CaptHindsight> we got about 12" in mid November and nothing since
[02:08:41] <toastydeath> we're supposed to be tits deep in snow
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[02:08:43] <toastydeath> and i'm in a t-shirt
[02:08:48] <toastydeath> i may turn the AC on
[02:09:17] <CaptHindsight> down to 40F here now
[02:09:44] <CaptHindsight> hasn't it been the same for Europe
[02:09:57] <CaptHindsight> on the warm side all fall
[02:11:25] <CaptHindsight> I recall being taught all sorts of rules that had all sorts of exceptions
[02:11:41] <CaptHindsight> I before E except in words like .........
[02:11:56] <toastydeath> except in over half the words where that happens
[02:15:27] <enleth> Oh - I got a bunch of those metal puzzle thingys where you have to separate two pieces and then get them back together
[02:15:45] <enleth> I'm really impressed with the manufacturing quality
[02:18:32] <enleth> The casting, grinding and machining effort they must have taken to make lives up to industrial standards
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[02:21:37] <toastydeath> enleth, link?
[02:22:45] <enleth> They're made by Hanayama
[02:23:21] <CaptHindsight> this year they are playing It's a Wonderful Life on Christmas eve
[02:26:17] <CaptHindsight> http://www.hanayama-toys.com/
[02:26:35] <toastydeath> cool
[02:26:37] <toastydeath> looks die cast
[02:26:38] <enleth> toastydeath: I'm playing with Hanayama Quartet right now
[02:27:24] <enleth> the damn thing has hairline tolerances
[02:27:50] <enleth> and whatever enamel they used, it's rock hard
[02:31:08] <toastydeath> #thatswhatshesaid
[02:32:01] <enleth> toastydeath: you wish
[02:32:09] <enleth> if they make enamel finish dildos maybe
[02:32:21] <toastydeath> i imagine there'd be thermal problems with that
[02:32:26] <toastydeath> not sure
[02:32:29] <toastydeath> ...science?
[02:32:55] <enleth> there was this "How it's made" episode where they show a dildo factory
[02:33:12] <enleth> that's some pretty serious technology going into making them
[02:33:28] <enleth> it's somewhere on YT I think
[02:34:12] <toastydeath> i love that show
[02:34:19] <toastydeath> i wish they did hour-long episodes on single things
[02:34:20] <toastydeath> and went more into it
[02:34:38] <enleth> there was this enormous machine pulling out dozens of huge violet rubber dicks out of a gigantic vat of liquid silicone
[02:34:45] <enleth> every second
[02:34:49] <toastydeath> dps
[02:34:52] <toastydeath> dicks per second
[02:36:34] <enleth> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9-qTGDxncA - those are some takes from this video, I can't find the original
[02:37:05] <toastydeath> that must be so surreal to work there
[02:37:53] <enleth> also, this: https://i.imgur.com/b6MHs6m.jpg
[02:38:02] <enleth> speaking of surreal
[02:38:09] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[02:38:12] <toastydeath> that's so weird
[02:38:50] <enleth> so many questions, so little answers
[02:39:10] <enleth> all of them boild down to WHY? though
[02:40:10] <enleth> seriously though, they surely do have to replace the dies from time to time
[02:40:14] <toastydeath> "the dick mold wore out"
[02:40:15] <enleth> and they do end up somewhere
[02:40:31] <enleth> I'd pay a lot for that truckload
[02:40:38] <enleth> just to use them as decoration
[02:41:04] <enleth> I can't think of a better party conversation starter
[02:41:28] <toastydeath> hahah people only come over once.
[02:41:30] <toastydeath> never twice.
[02:41:35] <toastydeath> "The guy with all the dicks"
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[02:51:02] <os1r1s> Contract_Pilot What are you buying up from Mesa?
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[02:53:36] <pink_> hi
[02:53:58] pink_ is now known as pink_vampire
[02:54:55] <Contract_Pilot> 7I76 need 1 more
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[02:57:15] <os1r1s> Contract_Pilot I have a brand new one that I got from mesa 2 months ago sitting in a box.
[02:57:23] <os1r1s> I think I'm going to go in a diff direction
[02:57:30] <os1r1s> If you are interested
[02:58:28] <pink_vampire> I need some advice about spindle.
[02:59:02] <CaptHindsight> pink_vampire: just ask
[03:03:13] <pink_vampire> I want to add high speed spindle to my machine
[03:03:17] <pink_vampire> something like that http://www.airturbinetools.com/spindles/specs/602js.html
[03:03:22] <pink_vampire> but electric, not air based.
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[03:06:32] <os1r1s> pink_vampire What kind of machine?
[03:07:00] <pink_vampire> G0704..
[03:07:25] <pink_vampire> we talk before..
[03:07:36] <CaptHindsight> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Drill-Mill-with-Stand/G0704
[03:07:40] <pink_vampire> I have pink long nails..
[03:10:10] <os1r1s> Yes. I recall
[03:12:10] <pink_vampire> just before few days I start to work on the machine again..
[03:12:46] <os1r1s> pink_vampire What speed are you looking for?
[03:12:47] <os1r1s> RPM
[03:13:13] <pink_vampire> 30K and up
[03:13:22] <CaptHindsight> where would you mount the air spindle?
[03:13:28] <os1r1s> I've used Wolfgang spindles that go 25k
[03:13:41] <pink_vampire> I don't want air,
[03:13:42] <os1r1s> Not seen ones higher. Not sure how you would mount it, but they are relatively inexpensive
[03:13:46] <pink_vampire> just electric.
[03:13:51] <os1r1s> Wolfgang is electric
[03:14:12] <pink_vampire> and it is go in to the collet?
[03:14:23] <CaptHindsight> do you want to add the new spindle or replace the old spindle with the new one?
[03:14:34] <CaptHindsight> add vs replace
[03:14:38] <pink_vampire> I dont want to connct extra spindle from the side.
[03:15:01] <CaptHindsight> what do you want to do?
[03:15:50] <pink_vampire> to get electric spindle that will fit like the air turbine spindle
[03:16:06] <CaptHindsight> where do you want to mount it?
[03:16:56] <pink_vampire> something fast but not have to be super strong. 150-200W will be more than enough
[03:17:10] <pink_vampire> CaptHindsight: in the R8 collet..
[03:17:34] <os1r1s> pink_vampire I don't know if the bearings in that spindle are suited for 30k rpm
[03:18:43] <pink_vampire> the main spindle is off. it's just gonig to hold the high speed spindle in place. like regular emdmill
[03:23:47] <CaptHindsight> I wouldn't
[03:24:27] <toastydeath> if you're not opposed to air spindles you can get some fairly short, high speed spindles
[03:24:31] <CaptHindsight> plus you'll lose most if not all of your Z
[03:24:33] <toastydeath> electric is much harder to make short
[03:25:30] <toastydeath> that are specifically meant to be held in another spindle
[03:25:33] <toastydeath> when it's locked static
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[03:29:05] <pink_vampire> CaptHindsight: I have 12" Z..
[03:30:30] <pink_vampire> toastydeath: something like rc motor with er8 collet at the ens will be fine. I jund need to find a way to hold it acurate in the main spindle .
[03:30:41] <pink_vampire> end*
[03:31:29] <toastydeath> there is a process to do this, actually, but i have never tried it with a small machine
[03:32:09] <toastydeath> what you do is clamp a pin to the table, however you want to do it, and then clamp the new motor/spindle to that pin on the table
[03:32:25] <toastydeath> the mount you make/have for the motor should be generally roughed in
[03:32:58] <toastydeath> mount a 2 or 3" grinding wheel in the mill, and put lots of tarp/plastic down
[03:33:31] <toastydeath> since the new motor can spin on its bearing, you crank the table close to the spindle, and rotate the new motor by hand to grind it
[03:34:02] <toastydeath> if you go slow, and have patience, the mounting pin you're grinding will be in line with the actual spindle bearings to a pretty close tolerance.
[03:34:24] <pink_vampire> toastydeath: you talk about use the machine as a lathe?
[03:34:36] <toastydeath> not a lathe, but as a cylindrical grinder
[03:34:47] <toastydeath> and you're spinning the part to be machined by hand
[03:36:09] <pink_vampire> there is over size collets for R8.
[03:36:21] <toastydeath> you don't need to make it bigger than R8
[03:36:33] <toastydeath> you can grind the holding post on the new grinder to any size you want
[03:36:37] <toastydeath> i'd recommend 7/8"
[03:36:38] <pink_vampire> http://rotagriponline.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&product_id=9453&flypage=shop.flypage&pop=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=29
[03:36:50] <pink_vampire> 25mm to r8
[03:36:57] <toastydeath> because that's the largest natural bore R8 can hold, and is more rigid than an oversize collet
[03:37:10] <toastydeath> do not grind larger, because length matters more than diameter
[03:37:24] <pink_vampire> but in 40K with 0.8mm end mill..
[03:37:29] <toastydeath> uh
[03:37:44] <toastydeath> what the new spindle holds doesn't matter
[03:37:52] <toastydeath> how you are holding the new spindle does matter
[03:37:59] <pink_vampire> you dont need any rigidity, just a acuracy.
[03:38:32] <toastydeath> high speed machines actually need quite a deal of rigidity, and it does matter
[03:39:48] <toastydeath> there isn't a single benefit to holding the motor out further than you absolutely need
[03:39:53] <pink_vampire> I mean that the sub mm tool will deflect much more than the over size collet. or any part in the machine..
[03:40:03] <toastydeath> that is also not true
[03:40:10] <toastydeath> the majority of the flex in a machine comes from the frame, not the tool
[03:40:21] <toastydeath> because the flex is integrated over the load path
[03:40:44] <toastydeath> the tool is a very short load path, whereas the spindle, head, and riser are a long, long load path
[03:40:58] justanotheruser is now known as justanotherelf
[03:41:15] <toastydeath> if you put even a small tool in a load cell, and apply a hundred pounds of force, it does not flex very far
[03:41:33] <toastydeath> but if you mount that same load cell to the bed of the machine and apply the same force to the spindle nose, there's about two orders of magnetude more flex
[03:41:59] <pink_vampire> now I did some jobs wid dremel + duct tape, I was more than want I need..
[03:42:04] <pink_vampire> with*
[03:43:01] <pink_vampire> and I the duct tape was strong enough, I think anything will be just better..
[03:43:06] <toastydeath> so i'm not talking about "can you jury rig this"
[03:43:27] <toastydeath> i'm sure someone somewhere has used a hockey ticket and a pack of gum to machine something
[03:43:39] <toastydeath> what i am telling you is the best possible way to hold this sort of spindle
[03:44:07] <toastydeath> you can do it however you want, but every other way is inferior. you are welcome to build your machine however you'd prefer, using whatever methods you'd like - it's not my milling machine
[03:44:44] <toastydeath> but i do not understand using a worse method when the correct method is so easy
[03:44:55] <toastydeath> not my call to make, though.
[03:46:06] <pink_vampire> I want it come from the spindle becaus I see it as a tool. I dont want it to be permanent
[03:46:21] <toastydeath> i think there's miscommunication here because i'm not talking about a perminent tool
[03:46:33] <toastydeath> I'm talking about how you make a removable spindle that's held exactly in line with your main machine spindle
[03:51:38] <pink_vampire> http://medicool.com/dental/hp_35.php
[03:51:41] <pink_vampire> something like that will be fine for me.
[03:51:47] <pink_vampire> I just want it to be with a shank that go in the R8
[03:51:53] <toastydeath> o
[03:51:57] <toastydeath> *i'm telling you how to make the shank
[03:52:26] <toastydeath> maybe there's a misunderstanding here, but i'm describing how you hold that motor in an r8 spindle
[03:52:31] <toastydeath> using a collet
[03:52:38] <toastydeath> so that it is accurate
[03:53:02] <pink_vampire> I need a lathe of 3 jaw chuck
[04:05:39] <jdh> I have an R8 3-jaw lathe chuck
[04:07:35] <pink_vampire> on what machine?
[04:07:39] <pink_vampire> g0704?
[04:07:44] <jdh> yeah
[04:08:17] <pink_vampire> and how it feel?
[04:09:07] <jdh> awkward
[04:09:39] <jdh> just looks awkward spinning actually. seems to be fine though. Only used it a couple times
[04:10:45] <pink_vampire> I think to get junk lathe will be better and safer than use 3 jaw chuck on the G0704
[04:11:11] <pink_vampire> I LOST MY CALIPER!!!
[04:11:33] <pink_vampire> it freak me out
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[04:28:30] <CaptHindsight> better than losing a mill
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[04:46:17] <pink_vampire> maybe it's time for new one...
[04:51:26] <irontree9> anyone know a good place to get liner bearings or slides?
[05:02:13] <Tom_itx> http://www.pbclinear.com/
[05:06:15] <irontree9> cad models. nice :)
[05:06:37] <os1r1s> Tom_itx They are really high
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[06:11:15] <FloppyDisk> @irontree9: Hiwinn is another. Kollmorgen linear slides use hiwinn (and not thomson - both danaher right next to each other?)
[06:11:47] <FloppyDisk> nb corporation is another... Good stuff there.
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[06:47:16] <XXCoder> hey pink_vampire
[06:47:21] <XXCoder> been a while
[07:00:18] <toastydeath> god damn i really want to go to this
[07:00:19] <toastydeath> https://www.blackhat.com/us-15/training/software-exploitation-via-hardware-exploits.html
[07:00:24] <toastydeath> maybe in 2017
[07:01:08] <XXCoder> sex via hex .com
[07:01:19] <XXCoder> interesting class though
[07:01:45] <toastydeath> i don't think it would make sense if i took it though, i have no experience/interest in exploits per se, just in reverse engineering
[07:02:00] <XXCoder> sometimes they go in hand I think
[07:02:10] <XXCoder> gonna breaj to access after all
[07:02:17] <toastydeath> they do, but i'd be afraid of just not having the common language
[07:02:23] <toastydeath> or skillset
[07:02:31] <toastydeath> we'll see in a year if i've gone in that direction or not, i guess
[07:02:39] <XXCoder> cool, but wow expensive,.
[07:02:49] <toastydeath> would rather do that vs a cruise
[07:05:32] <XXCoder> reverse engineering job?
[07:05:55] <toastydeath> nope, i like tools as a hobby and how they work/modifying them is probably the thing i like best
[07:06:07] <toastydeath> it's why I went off to learn machining
[07:06:25] <toastydeath> modifying/making physical parts, learning to do things accurately/improve things that suck
[07:06:34] <toastydeath> i'm starting in on the electrical side
[07:07:15] <XXCoder> nice
[07:07:27] <XXCoder> if you take that class you probably can learn how to root devices
[07:07:31] <XXCoder> some of em anyway
[07:07:37] <toastydeath> yeah, and i don't even really need root?
[07:07:38] <XXCoder> nobody can root kindle pw2 so far.
[07:07:47] <XXCoder> sometimes its very handy.
[07:07:55] <toastydeath> i just want to get firmware off chips and figure out what different things are expecting
[07:07:59] <toastydeath> purely reverse engineering
[07:08:14] <XXCoder> I got a cheap acer tablet, rooted it because it has one app that asks to enable anomyous data collection each hour.
[07:08:18] <toastydeath> the injection side is neat because there are some oppertunities on physical equipment to change and upgrade hardware
[07:08:34] <toastydeath> but none of the stuff i want to work on is like... consumer electronics
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[07:09:28] <toastydeath> reading/writing flash memory to change parameters on motor drivers and so on
[07:10:00] <XXCoder> heard extracting some firmware can be hard
[07:10:13] <XXCoder> but nothing beats just desoldering chip and readout
[07:10:26] <toastydeath> can be, yeah - but from what I understand it's more an issue in stuff like the kindle/iphone/etc
[07:10:28] <XXCoder> heard of that anyway, never did anything like that,
[07:10:35] <toastydeath> yeah, that's my main thing
[07:10:40] <archivist> one sets the flag to stop the chip being read :)
[07:10:56] <toastydeath> a lot of industrial gear has no such thing in place
[07:11:12] <toastydeath> so it's just a jtag header and you don't have to desolder anything
[07:11:28] <toastydeath> plus the documentation for all of that is waaay more available
[07:11:55] <XXCoder> there is pretty simple serial root for kindle paperwhite 2
[07:11:56] <toastydeath> schematics, serial clock timings, internal protocols
[07:12:02] <XXCoder> but I dont want o open case.
[07:12:07] <archivist> I have been on both sides, reverse engineering and protecting my code
[07:13:06] <archivist> relly funny when you get requests for info why your code does not work in an unmodified device
[07:13:59] <toastydeath> lol what?
[07:14:07] <XXCoder> lol
[07:14:49] <archivist> I put a blob of solder on the pcb and looked for it in code, by putting it in the servo calcs
[07:14:56] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[07:15:05] <toastydeath> that's goddamn awesome
[07:15:22] <archivist> hackers would say the head hits the side!
[07:16:45] <archivist> I had reversed the code in the printer added functions etc, we were selling it for a lot higher price, so protected the mods
[07:17:56] <XXCoder> http://www.lukesurl.com/archives/comic/147-back-in-mac
[07:18:05] <XXCoder> outdated but funny
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[07:19:34] <toastydeath> i just wanna run instrumentation with missing PC controls =(
[07:20:24] <toastydeath> or fix broken stuff
[07:20:40] <toastydeath> but i am still so new on the electronics side that it is all intimidating
[07:20:46] <toastydeath> GOTTA TRY ANYWAY I GUESS!
[07:21:07] <archivist> yup, get all the right toys for that
[07:21:29] <toastydeath> yeah, i'm building up the arsenal now
[07:21:50] <archivist> data collecting to "see" how something works, or doesnt
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[07:22:25] <toastydeath> my basic plan is to try and get a decent understanding of some of the analog principles, which i need to really just start labbing out
[07:22:35] <toastydeath> pen and paper only get a person so far before it's just mental masturbation
[07:23:07] <toastydeath> my dad gave me this giant book of circuits, divided by category, and how they're designed
[07:23:10] <archivist> I do see many struggle if they dont get the tools
[07:23:13] <toastydeath> so there's a whole chapter on amplifiers
[07:23:22] <toastydeath> with increasingly more complex designs as it goes on
[07:23:37] <toastydeath> yeah, I am struggling now because I am using shit i've had around
[07:24:09] <toastydeath> I've decided to go with some of the older HP/Agilent gear, like the hp 3556a voltmeter which i really want two of
[07:24:18] <toastydeath> 150-200 each on ebay, so that's easy
[07:24:37] <toastydeath> i have the money around to get a good scope
[07:25:04] <archivist> I need some rectifiers to resurrect a tool I think you would want,
[07:25:07] <toastydeath> haven't really decided on a strategy for power supply or sig gen yet but i'm still deciding
[07:25:24] <XXCoder> sigh I have no idea why I can't get off my ass and do stuff
[07:25:25] <toastydeath> there is an old hp function gen that looks really good for what I want to do
[07:25:53] <toastydeath> archivist?
[07:26:02] <archivist> the tool to look out for for analog motor systems is "dynamic system analyser"
[07:26:28] <toastydeath> but basically from there I'm just gonna get a bunch of discrete parts and design/put together small circuits
[07:26:37] <toastydeath> try to fix some of the broken shit around my apartment
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[07:26:58] <archivist> it stimulates the thing under test an measures its response
[07:26:59] <toastydeath> i've never heard of a dynamic system analyzer?
[07:27:52] <archivist> aits a signal source, then network analyser bit with the ability for spectrum analysis
[07:27:58] <toastydeath> oh, yes
[07:28:24] <toastydeath> there's an old HP vector network analyzer that goes down to DC
[07:28:36] <toastydeath> it's one of the few i've found that isn't built for communications
[07:28:56] <toastydeath> has a bunch of test sets you can get for it for different network parameters
[07:29:09] <toastydeath> definitely a wishlist item though =(
[07:29:19] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=3562a
[07:29:28] <toastydeath> THAT'S IT
[07:29:46] <toastydeath> that and it's bigger brother
[07:29:54] <toastydeath> i think i have the # written down here somewhere
[07:29:56] <Contract_Pilot> Dealing with china is fun "Not"
[07:30:04] <toastydeath> archivist, how useful do you find it is?
[07:30:08] <toastydeath> for motor analysis
[07:30:19] <archivist> it is not useful dead grrrrrrr
[07:30:27] <toastydeath> b/c/ my fear was "oh hey what a nice toy that isn't useful for me"
[07:30:58] <toastydeath> even though i read a lot of literature that says you can do great things with pwm/pfm if you know the response of the motor
[07:31:11] <archivist> never managed to use it for motors yet as the thing died
[07:31:19] <toastydeath> oh well =(
[07:31:50] <archivist> looking for another or one of its relations
[07:32:30] <toastydeath> have you seen the Signal Path Blog episode where he repairs an oscilloscope that's actually fucked up?
[07:32:33] <archivist> I have the earlier version which is a beast that loads its software off an internal tape recorder
[07:32:39] <toastydeath> hahaha
[07:32:48] <toastydeath> noted, avoid that
[07:32:57] <archivist> tape drive roller fails
[07:34:33] <toastydeath> archivist, it's not this exact one but this is in the family
[07:34:40] <toastydeath> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-3577A-NETWORK-ANALYZER-W-HP35677B-S-PARAMETER-TEST-SET-/391343773534?hash=item5b1de8175e:g:wJoAAOSwu4BV6drK
[07:34:42] <pink_vampire> hi XXCoder !!
[07:34:44] <XXCoder> archivist: just add serial connection that fakes tape record
[07:35:04] <XXCoder> there is hard drive tape recorder emulator too
[07:35:10] <XXCoder> pink_vampire: hows ya
[07:35:19] <archivist> first you have to get the code off a tape :)
[07:35:42] <XXCoder> wonder if putting it in audio out and recording it would work lol
[07:35:43] <pink_vampire> I'm fine.. working abit on the pane..
[07:36:32] <pink_vampire> panel*
[07:36:40] <XXCoder> cool :)
[07:36:48] <toastydeath> here it is
[07:36:49] <toastydeath> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Agilent-89441A-AYA-Vector-Signal-Analyzer-with-W-CDMA-Capability-DC-to-2-65-GHz-/141492802325?hash=item20f1a0d315:g:0kYAAOSwiCRUfZt3
[07:38:55] <toastydeath> based on the manual it seems like three or four different instruments that hp decided should be in one chassis
[07:39:38] <toastydeath> esp with all the software options on it
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[07:42:53] <archivist> looks a bit similar but comms biased
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[07:44:00] <toastydeath> it's weird, but yeah - except it goes straight on down to DC, so I could in theory just remove the RF section and use it as is
[07:44:14] <archivist> the fact that its rated to dc does put it in range of useful, iirc mine only gets down to .001 hz
[07:44:28] <toastydeath> it'll do things like bode plots and LCR measurements
[07:45:02] <archivist> it has the source and two inputs like the 3562a
[07:45:13] <archivist> all the rest is code
[07:45:19] <toastydeath> yep, from the manuals at least they're extremely similar hardware wise
[07:46:11] <archivist> ew that sellers feedback is low
[07:46:51] <toastydeath> they pop up a lot at a bunch of different price points, not sure what the deal is
[07:47:50] <archivist> not sure I have seen one over here yet
[07:49:09] <toastydeath> out of curiosity, how do you feel about using kelvin leads on an lcr meter
[07:49:12] <toastydeath> versus desoldering
[07:52:06] <archivist> kelvin leads remove lead effects, rather hard for them to remove the circuit
[07:52:45] <toastydeath> so not super useful overall?
[07:52:50] <archivist> so desolder for proper measurement
[07:53:22] <toastydeath> i figured =(
[07:53:43] <archivist> still need the leads to get up close to a components real value
[07:54:08] <archivist> depends why you want to measure something
[07:54:22] <toastydeath> mostly troubleshooting, not exact values
[07:54:36] <toastydeath> my whole thrust right now is just basically troubleshooting
[07:55:32] <archivist> I use a very high resolution meter to see where a sort is because you can then see the track
[07:55:38] <archivist> short
[07:56:22] <archivist> mainly used on new PCBs where there is a manufacturing fault
[07:57:09] <toastydeath> i have heard of that but i'm still at the stage where i'm trying to gain intuition on what parts are likely to do what
[07:57:14] <archivist> dvm with many digits and a filter(average over many readings)
[07:57:33] <toastydeath> that's the thing i'm focused on next - the dvm
[07:57:44] <toastydeath> because the one i have is just... not good
[07:57:47] <archivist> intuition comes from experience
[07:58:32] <archivist> I got taught fault finding so am lucky :)
[07:58:48] <toastydeath> hahaha
[07:58:55] <toastydeath> gonna have to learn the hard way on my end
[07:59:09] <archivist> if you know the bisect method, its the same thing really
[07:59:10] <toastydeath> fortunately there seem to be a good supply of grizzled old dudes on the internet these days
[07:59:27] <archivist> !.... :)
[07:59:27] <toastydeath> ?
[07:59:35] <toastydeath> bisect method?
[07:59:46] <archivist> divide and conquer
[08:00:03] <archivist> is the fault to the left or right
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[08:00:43] <archivist> but first just look at the thing, any lights, can you hear a click at power on
[08:01:28] <archivist> open the box, smell, look carefully for burnt parts
[08:01:29] <toastydeath> hilariously i "fixed" my first thing
[08:01:45] <toastydeath> took a 1ghz oscilloscope apart, checked the supply under load, checked for shorts, etc etc
[08:01:47] <toastydeath> no problems
[08:01:59] <toastydeath> ...plugged all the cables in and it worked.
[08:02:08] <toastydeath> So... loose cable, i guess.
[08:02:19] <archivist> someone brought a tuner for repair the other day, the wire was loose in the plug
[08:02:22] <toastydeath> I have an amplifier i need to fix and i'm almost positive it's the input section
[08:02:45] <toastydeath> because the speaker pops nice and loud when you change the eq switches with the gain up[
[08:02:46] <archivist> amplifiers usually fail at the other end
[08:02:49] <toastydeath> so i assume the amp is fine
[08:03:08] <toastydeath> but i don't have anything to put a signal on the thing
[08:03:18] <toastydeath> to see where it is and isn't going
[08:03:29] <archivist> if stereo and both channels, what is in common
[08:03:34] <toastydeath> it's a mono amp
[08:03:53] <archivist> use a lot of logic in fault finding
[08:04:29] <toastydeath> the board has a lot of passive filters on it so i think it'll be quick once i get an oscilloscope that has the right input and a cheap sig gen
[08:04:35] <archivist> blunderbuss repair is the worst method (replace every part till it works)
[08:04:39] <toastydeath> either the signal's going to leave the board or it won't
[08:04:57] <toastydeath> if it leaves the board i'll have an idea what pins do what on the header and can troubleshoot the amp
[08:05:01] <toastydeath> nothing is obviously damaged
[08:05:21] <toastydeath> it just randomly cut out one day
[08:05:33] <archivist> signal source is a screwdriver pocket into an input
[08:05:41] <archivist> poked
[08:05:52] <Contract_Pilot> Ahhhh feel good tonight
[08:06:03] <archivist> use the mains hum as your source
[08:06:26] <toastydeath> hm! i'm going to go look at that right now on the old ass scope i have to see if it picks it up properly
[08:06:38] <toastydeath> the scope is having problems so i don't completely trust it on things like this
[08:06:42] <toastydeath> which makes it somewhat useless
[08:07:23] <toastydeath> something is wrong with the grounding inside it
[08:07:29] <toastydeath> (or so i think)
[08:07:50] <archivist> most scopes have a cal signal too, use that to check the scope
[08:07:59] <toastydeath> the timebase sometimes stops randomly, the deflection will drift even when grounded on on the cal output
[08:08:10] <toastydeath> noise while grounded, noise on cal, etc
[08:08:19] <toastydeath> and I was able to check the cal on a much better scope and it looked great
[08:08:31] <archivist> time for it to be repaired then
[08:08:34] <toastydeath> ya
[08:08:43] <toastydeath> it's another project, but i have to get a good voltmeter and a good scope
[08:09:06] <Jymmm> toastydeath: HarborFreight =)
[08:09:11] * Jymmm snickers
[08:09:12] <archivist> front panel switches start being unreliable on scopes
[08:09:46] <XXCoder> harbor freight can be good source of tools you put away once you get better tools.
[08:09:59] <archivist> first job is wind the switches and pots end to end a number of times to get the wipers to self clean
[08:11:20] <archivist> shame the shipping is more than the item http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Agilent-HP-89441A-Network-Analyzer-S-N-3416A02818-AS-IS-No-Options-/262198276625
[08:12:34] <toastydeath> damn
[08:13:02] <Jymmm> Free for me =)
[08:13:24] <toastydeath> archivist unfortunately the scope grounding is definitely interfering with troubleshooting
[08:13:36] <toastydeath> but that's a damn neat trick
[08:14:16] <archivist> you might be blaming grounding but hum on the display is a sign of power supply fault
[08:14:43] <archivist> electrolytic failure
[08:15:14] <toastydeath> i don't trust my own first reaction yet, so i'm totally willing to start wherever - but i'm not going to crack it open yet
[08:15:40] <Jymmm> toastydeath: Just look for bubbled caps
[08:15:44] <Jymmm> or leaking ones
[08:15:50] <archivist> toastydeath, the screwdriver trick is also good for antenna inputs to decide customers antenna or TV
[08:16:41] <XXCoder> caps tend to be what breaks stuff when old
[08:16:57] <XXCoder> from what I understand most old hardware can be recovered by replacing caps
[08:19:05] <toastydeath> i don't really want to bust this open yet even though the cause is likely to be visible - i have other things open and disassembled and also without high voltage sections
[08:20:21] <toastydeath> also what's the magic phrase to find a bench precision shunt resistor
[08:20:27] <toastydeath> i see companies that make them but i can't ever find the products for sale
[08:21:18] <archivist> I have never used one
[08:22:21] <archivist> I just have a set of draws with resistors in and grab what I want, else wire up a pot
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[08:23:42] <Deejay> moin
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[08:29:59] <pink_vampire> Deejay: hi
[08:31:48] <Deejay> hi pink_vampire
[08:31:54] <Deejay> merry xmas to everyone \o/
[08:35:03] <pink_vampire> my christmas is a good time to work abit on the machine.
[08:40:25] <Deejay> yeah :)
[08:44:53] <XXCoder> merry xmas :)
[08:46:48] <Deejay> hi XXCoder :)
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[09:12:28] <_abc_> Has someone got a working command line for running linuxcnc in sim mode under qemu? I get errors like: "RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED." and "halcmd[somepid]: segfault at 8 ip ... error 4 in liblinuxcnchal.so.0[etc etc]"
[09:32:51] <_abc_> Is there a way to run the stock live cd (2.7) under qemu with a non rtai enabled kernel which does not care about apic and other qemu issues?
[09:33:23] <archivist> the stock live cd has a sim version on it
[09:33:47] <_abc_> I don't see it. There's pae and non pae live, I ran the non pae.
[09:36:42] <archivist> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LinuxCNC_Pure_Simulator
[09:37:26] <archivist> I bet that page is out of date anyway
[09:38:01] <archivist> 2012
[09:38:30] <archivist> I hate wikis for going out of date
[09:38:47] <_abc_> Yeah I have the current 2.7 which is apparently based on xfce desktop. And runs dog slow on my old qemu.
[09:39:36] <archivist> I would run on a native box
[09:40:47] <_abc_> I hate wikis which also hide the posting date
[09:40:59] <_abc_> I already have it on native boxes. Need a sim env.
[09:41:09] <archivist> that does not hide the date, its at the bottom
[09:41:29] <_abc_> No worries, they will change the theme and it will be gone
[09:41:55] <archivist> never seen the them change ever
[09:42:01] <archivist> theme
[09:43:26] <_abc_> okay
[09:43:43] <_abc_> This qemu with no kernel support is dog slow. I really need to stop using 15 year old computers...
[09:44:33] <archivist> but I have always found the live CD to run in sim mode if I wanted it to
[09:44:59] <_abc_> Which option do you choose during boot
[09:45:28] <archivist> I select when choosing a machine config after starting axis
[09:46:12] <_abc_> You can't start axis if the hw faked by qemu does not show an apic
[09:46:43] <archivist> use real hardware
[09:47:03] <_abc_> You are digressing from the question I asked ;)
[09:47:43] <archivist> I dont think anyones tests under qemu, you have the source :)
[09:51:41] <_abc_> I am doing that now. Next.
[09:52:18] <archivist> fix bugs if any :)
[09:52:37] <_abc_> Also the current wheezy based 2.7 iso live has an xfce desktop whcih does not honor lauch icons created by itself.
[09:54:16] <_abc_> *which. Meaning, desktop only shows default icons, file manager shows created launchers, like my-mill
[09:57:53] <_abc_> fwiw the one I have which works *well* is 2.6.0-pre5
[09:58:02] <_abc_> Not with qemu but xfce etc are okay
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[10:01:45] <_abc_> Also apic support in qemu seems to be added only after 2013 as a patch. My qemu is older.
[10:01:52] <_abc_> I have another on another machine, will try that too.
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[10:22:40] <pink_vampire> someone know about good end mill supplier?
[10:24:15] <_abc_> There are thousands. It's like asking for a red car.
[10:28:25] <XXCoder> yeah no idea either, I just bought cheap ones off amazon for now
[10:44:18] <pink_vampire> I have the grizzly end mills. but half of them die :(
[10:45:15] <pink_vampire> one of them become a necklace
[10:46:04] <XXCoder> hopefully dulled all over
[10:47:05] <pink_vampire> the one on the necklace is new,
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[10:55:35] <_abc_> /join ##pcb @^
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[10:55:59] <_abc_> Sorry wrong channel
[10:59:34] <pink_vampire> _abc_: thanks! look like a cool place.
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[11:03:17] <XXCoder> pcb channel to make circuit boards eh
[11:03:34] <archivist> as is #kicad
[11:04:46] <pink_vampire> XXCoder: I'm using solidworks to make PCBs.. very slow and fastrating
[11:05:05] <archivist> ew the wrong software for that
[11:05:14] <XXCoder> better than my zero progress
[11:05:53] <pink_vampire> archivist: the stack light pcb was in solidworks.
[11:08:11] <archivist> while I have used software for a job it was not designed for, PCB design really needs the right application or a drawing board and reels of tape and a sharp knife
[11:08:25] <pink_vampire> there is a program that you can design the circuit in the program make the layout automatic?
[11:09:34] <archivist> autorouters often make a mess of a pcb
[11:09:45] <XXCoder> archivist: that kicad does render layout, I'm pretty sure can be converted into ncpaths
[11:09:55] <XXCoder> ignoring all chips so on
[11:10:17] <archivist> there are gerber to gcode programs about
[11:12:16] <archivist> one needs a reasonable spacial thinking ability for success
[11:12:54] <enleth> pink_vampire: https://teespring.com/autorouter - there's a reson one of my friends has two of those
[11:14:56] <XXCoder> archivist: lol that IS a mess.
[11:15:02] <XXCoder> er enleth
[11:15:49] <archivist> I never saw the image, useless website
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[11:19:10] <pink_vampire> enleth: I'm doing very simple pcbs.
[11:19:20] <XXCoder> I just enabled that domain scrpt and cloudfront and could see pic
[11:20:07] <XXCoder> archivist: http://vangogh.teespring.com/og_pic/2072058/2149896/front.jpg
[11:20:16] <XXCoder> 133t haxer :P
[11:23:47] <archivist> XXCoder, I had an autorouter put vias outside the boarder on an edge connector
[12:06:08] <SpeedEvil> Is anyone aware of any micro manipulator designs done cheap?
[12:07:00] <MattoMatic> doug englebert's flexure one
[12:07:01] <SpeedEvil> Ideal would be a one percent scale human arm, but. ..
[12:07:28] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming muscle wire
[12:07:33] <SpeedEvil> Thanks
[12:08:03] <MattoMatic> it's the manipulations that are miniaturised, not the manipulator
[12:08:22] <MattoMatic> lab ones resemble a microscope table
[12:08:29] <jthornton> lol just looking at my sign up sheet for dial up in 1999 I was running win95
[12:09:13] <SpeedEvil> Oh
[12:09:56] <MattoMatic> ^ dan gelbart
[12:10:01] <SpeedEvil> 98 wasn't very stable for a while
[12:10:31] <SpeedEvil> That would explain why I wasn't finding much
[12:11:15] <MattoMatic> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaypcVFPs48
[12:12:09] <MattoMatic> as it happens, he uses muscle wire in his flexures, purely because it has good fatigue life
[12:15:58] <MattoMatic> I still have my 1999 machine running win95. it's too nice to throw away. weitek fpu and everything
[12:17:12] <MattoMatic> I paid £8 for it at the time, I needed the VGA monitor :)
[12:17:50] <MattoMatic> but it's a tricked out 386. 12 whole mb and a scsi drive
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[12:23:06] <_abc_> MattoMatic: there's freeware dos based 2d cnc. It will run in w95/msdos6.22
[12:24:20] <_abc_> MattoMatic: http://www.dakeng.com/turbo.html
[12:24:37] <_abc_> You need to start the dos window in 'real' mode or boot into dos
[12:24:48] <_abc_> I have not tried to run this in freedos, it could work.
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[12:25:07] <_abc_> Okay, shareware, not entirely free
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[12:26:21] <_abc_> You need dos >5.0 apparently to run it.
[12:26:31] <_abc_> >=5.0
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[12:26:47] <_abc_> MattoMatic: Also 386 will easily run real time kernel etc, just not with gui
[12:27:19] <_abc_> freedos+turbocnc operation confirmed by at least 1 forum message http://www.shapeoko.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3176
[12:27:36] <MattoMatic> win95 is real DOS :)
[12:28:01] <_abc_> Not really. Some programs check for it and balk.
[12:28:20] <MattoMatic> oh yeah, it was 3.11 that could still be run as win /r
[12:28:21] <_abc_> Also you need the 'realtime' mode dos window and there's a way to launch it I forget.
[12:28:36] <MattoMatic> f8 on boot iirc
[12:29:24] <_abc_> http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000132.htm MattoMatic voila
[12:30:02] <MattoMatic> it's slower than an arduino. I'd need convicing why
[12:30:14] <_abc_> Your biggest problem will be lack of usb support.
[12:30:42] <_abc_> Iow how to get files in and out. Networking in w95 was <shudder> bad. Really bad. Trumpet winsock anyone? Pre 32 bit?
[12:31:05] <MattoMatic> netware
[12:31:06] <_abc_> MattoMatic: w95 was already written in m$'s best tradition of bloatware with bugs.
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[12:31:23] <_abc_> netbios support is not compatible between versions even in 2015.
[12:31:50] <_abc_> You expect that to work with a modern machine? Hah. You will spend the remaining half of your life editing the registry at both ends and rebooting.
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[12:32:44] <MattoMatic> I bought win7 for one machine, as I felt I ought to have one working windows machine. I'm not impressed
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[12:33:39] <_abc_> Anyway I am impressed dak engineering still maintains that code.
[12:33:39] <MattoMatic> I forgot endless rebooting is a normal operating procedure
[12:33:47] <_abc_> 20 years !
[12:34:06] <MattoMatic> nice job if you can get it
[12:35:05] <MattoMatic> win7 used up 50GB of my 60GB ssd. it feels like I bought a manure farm
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[12:36:47] <MattoMatic> in there is 2GB of stuff I need to run windows programs, 1GB of NSA spyware, and 47GB of manure for that 1GB to hide in
[12:37:18] <_abc_> http://www.accesswave.ca/~blandry/ezcnc/abimp.html there's also this
[12:37:22] <_abc_> w95 compatible
[12:37:57] <_abc_> MattoMatic: Don't forget SxS. 60GB will grow forever. Muahaha.
[12:38:15] <_abc_> My old Vista dual boot has SxS consuming about 30GB for an initial 8GB install...
[12:38:47] <_abc_> "if you see some new dlls, copy them to Sxs. If you see some dlls you already have, copy them anyway"
[12:38:59] <_abc_> "if you see them again (reinstall), copy them once more"
[12:39:01] <_abc_> etc
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[12:41:06] <_abc_> Someone took the mantra "disk space is cheap" very literally.
[12:42:16] <MattoMatic> I had a cunning plan for p2p dll checking, but that woulda needed a police force with a payroll the size of M$ or kepersky, so I left that to the pros
[12:43:14] <_abc_> No, you only need something like unix find(1) and md5sum but you will fail. m$ has dll's edited for almost every release, including with the same version number and code release date.
[12:43:24] <MattoMatic> yeah I should look into ways of turning off some of this bloat. it can't be 60gb of .net libs
[12:44:05] <XXCoder> _abc_: was a fix to dll hell
[12:44:06] <_abc_> I tried the above cunning plan and it backfired. There are at least 4 different mscvrt.dll 's in my SxS, all with the exact same name, different lengths and seriously different inside (diff -b etc)
[12:44:36] <_abc_> MattoMatic: After XP you can no longer delete SxS repositories. If you do you need to reinstall the software which needs it.
[12:45:18] <_abc_> MattoMatic: even deleting those anyway requires linux mounting the ntfs vulumes for surgery. Fingers crossed etc. See above how it went for me.
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[12:45:54] <MattoMatic> that's normal, the multiple msvcrt.dll. each version of vc has at least 2, and then mingw got a gpl rewrite etc etc etc
[12:47:01] <_abc_> example: locate -i 'sbscmp20_mscorwks.dll'|wc -l -> 6
[12:47:02] <_abc_> ...
[12:47:35] <cncbasher> merry christmas everyone
[12:47:38] <_abc_> md5sum $(locate -i 'sbscmp20_mscorwks.dll') -> 2 different checksums
[12:47:52] <MattoMatic> cncbasher and to you :)
[12:47:54] <_abc_> And this goes on and on
[12:49:16] <jthornton> rain starts tonight and doesn't stop till Monday night
[12:49:18] <MattoMatic> meh, I want minimum wage x1.5 to shovel M$ manure on xmas day :)
[12:49:56] <_abc_> You know, since the dot com bust, the old joke about leaving hitech due to lack of skills for burger flipping is no longer funny.
[12:50:07] <_abc_> Because burger flippers make more per hour than some coders.
[12:50:44] <jdh> a good burger is a good burger
[12:50:53] <jdh> vs. php
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[12:51:31] <_abc_> Give a man a burger and you feed him once, teach him php and you will have to bear his code forever.
[12:51:39] <MattoMatic> there's only one real coding job left to do AI
[12:51:49] <_abc_> Anyone else VERY ANNOYED by the latest web 3.0 bullshit?
[12:52:16] <MrSunshine> what is that ?
[12:52:37] <MattoMatic> I'm still being anoyed by web 2.0 bullshit. flash player
[12:53:15] <_abc_> MattoMatic: AI is already here, Asimov's laws and all. And when they tried to apply it it ended badly, self driving cars cannot make decisions about killing people as Asimov's laws would demand. Instead, they are working to implement AS (Artificial Stupidity), aka "make machines more human like". Be afraid, very afraid.http://xkcd.com/1613/
[12:53:35] <_abc_> Flash player died this month or so. Again. They are really pulling it.
[12:54:08] <_abc_> Silverlight went dark some time ago. The new thing that will turn your 8GB ram 12GB clocked game machine into an arduino is html5 video.
[12:56:07] <MattoMatic> blender had a great plugin for IE3 that gave you as good as webGL
[12:56:13] <_abc_> Which html5 video is so resource intensive it drops frames massively even on machines which ran the same youtube video flawlessly with flash
[12:56:17] <MattoMatic> probably not secure tho
[12:56:40] <_abc_> Ah yes and they are working on some 3d extensions I forget because 2d slow html5 is not slow enough.
[12:57:36] <_abc_> Ah yes the flash thing: get thy flash player plugins now, from jan 1 Adobe will no longer allow downloads of them excepting with a license.
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[12:58:07] <MattoMatic> people love browsers tho. if you make a machine, the network control panel is usually http
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[12:58:18] <_abc_> Huh?
[12:58:29] <SpeedEvil> On a related topic, I bought a heart rate tracker. It downloads via Bluetooth to my phone fine. Then uploads to the cloud. Then the mobile app takes ages to connect to the server (it can't display anything without ). Needless to say, without Internet, it doesn't work at all. Not even when the data had previously been downloaded from the cloud.
[12:58:30] <_abc_> Well it's an interface. I prefer snmp or shell though ;)
[12:58:48] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: I assume you are not very happy.
[12:58:52] <SpeedEvil> No
[12:58:58] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: tried to re the protocol and make sense of it locally?
[12:59:33] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: cynically, I think it takes a long time to index you and prepare the ads they will send you before the real data, in between the real data, and forever after
[12:59:49] <_abc_> "customer profile insufficient for ad preparation, postpone gui download"
[13:00:25] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: is on my stack, but...
[13:00:35] <SpeedEvil> No ads
[13:00:45] <_abc_> Really? You mean, not yet, surely?
[13:00:50] <_abc_> Did you pay for the app?
[13:00:53] <SpeedEvil> Probably
[13:01:03] <_abc_> $3.9 or whatever app?
[13:01:09] <SpeedEvil> Free app. From the maker.
[13:01:13] <SpeedEvil> Jawbone
[13:01:13] <_abc_> Okay
[13:01:17] <archivist> falls into the not fit for purpose category
[13:01:26] <_abc_> Hm?
[13:01:29] <SpeedEvil> Arguably, yes
[13:13:08] <Jymmm> Small rant... You MUST register before you can use a Roku, even though you are purchasing no content from them, and they very strongly want your credit card and make it difficult to register without one. Then on top of all that, read the privacy policy, especially where they are allowed to record your voice or anything else you say in the room that it can hear... https://www.roku.com/blank/internal/owner/privacy-policy
[13:13:57] <SpeedEvil> Sigh
[13:15:22] <Jymmm> Merry Christmas Everyone !!!
[13:15:29] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[13:15:57] <MattoMatic> there's that IR spectroscope on kickstarter that does all the pattern matching on their cloud. they'll know what grade your shit is before you do
[13:17:11] <archivist> the cloud can get stuffed I dont like rain
[13:17:18] * MattoMatic writes star trek skit with ads on tricorders
[13:17:35] <Jymmm> lol
[13:17:58] <archivist> I have started serving the ad urls locally to clean up some sites
[13:18:12] <archivist> and the tracking urls
[13:18:20] <MattoMatic> I want to start a local ad server. local ads for local people
[13:18:30] <_abc_> Serving locally? Port redirect by url? ;)
[13:18:33] <_abc_> Or by ip...
[13:18:37] <Jymmm> There's no place like 127.0.0.1
[13:18:38] <archivist> edit ones hosts file is the main
[13:18:41] <_abc_> Yeah the net is becoming more and more hostile
[13:18:55] <_abc_> archivist: that is cheating!
[13:19:01] <_abc_> archivist: real men do it in the firewall.
[13:19:14] <archivist> http://winhelp2002.mvps.org/hosts.htm
[13:19:24] <archivist> works in any os :)
[13:19:31] <_abc_> I still have a working copy of Sun OpenOffice 2.x ... it tries to call home every time I start it, the servers no longer exist!
[13:19:51] <_abc_> I had to do firewall redirection to help it, it takes ages to start without this.
[13:21:01] <Jymmm> _abc_: run a local webserver that responds to it
[13:21:45] <_abc_> Jymmm: not needed, just the right firewall incantation and it is quiet. Also it uses https, no way to fake it.
[13:21:53] <archivist> I have some little empty files for the 1px tracking images
[13:22:28] <Jymmm> _abc_: ah
[13:22:34] <_abc_> Jymmm: if it senses no network connection it does not try to call home and wait
[13:23:06] <Jymmm> _abc_: you could hex edit and jut stop it all together
[13:23:07] <_abc_> Damn, I misplaced a little 808 camera and adapter.
[13:23:22] <_abc_> Jymmm: You must be jesting. It's at least 300MB installed.
[13:23:58] <Jymmm> _abc_: Not at all, searcg for any networking calls
[13:24:32] <_abc_> I'll give a banana to anyone explaining what keeps my system load at 2.95 with nothing showing up in top(1) output?
[13:25:06] <Jymmm> spyware =)
[13:26:03] <_abc_> Nope, one of the system's disk watchers. Sigh. Disabled it previously.
[13:26:16] <MattoMatic> kirk has bamboo and fist sized diamonds, and he's whining into his log that he has no weapons. I'm rooting for the Gorn
[13:26:17] <Jymmm> _abc_: All your boxes are botnets!
[13:26:48] <Jymmm> MattoMatic: I know that episode!
[13:26:58] <_abc_> No, not at all. I have dvd burner problems. Might crash and time out in a few
[13:27:41] <Jymmm> _abc_: I just have ext ones, super easy to replace
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[13:28:22] <Jymmm> ext 5.25 enclosure
[13:31:15] <Jymmm> I love that it has an internal PS http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4CP1GF9189
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[13:36:25] <Jymmm> Does anyone have any stereo bluetooth headsets they like?
[13:36:33] <Jymmm> recommendations that is
[13:40:48] <jthornton> I found one I like
[13:40:57] <jthornton> dunno the name of it, it's out in the shop
[13:41:00] <membiblio> My only satisfying BlueTooth experience has been Plantronics over the ear - good battery life and lasts, physically, a long time plus listening to podcasts and audio is excellent from a aural point.
[13:41:08] <jthornton> I wear it while riding the bike
[13:41:49] <Jymmm> I found these so far... http://www.amazon.com/Kinivo-BTH240-Bluetooth-Stereo-Headphone/dp/B00AWIPITS
[13:42:26] <Jymmm> Can pair to 5 devices I believe
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[13:43:04] <Tom_itx> so Jymmm, did you sign up for roku?
[13:43:24] <jthornton> oh your looking for big ones
[13:43:47] <Tom_itx> Merry Christmas everybody
[13:44:22] <Jymmm> jthornton: Not necessarily
[13:44:40] <jthornton> Merry Christmas
[13:45:22] <membiblio> Remember BlueTooth will sometimes connect from across the room but not from your pocket :)
[13:45:48] <jthornton> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00WUDX250?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
[13:45:57] <jthornton> that's the one I use when I ride
[13:46:05] <jthornton> very comfortable
[13:46:12] <archivist> Real Wire tm
[13:47:16] <Jymmm> membiblio: lol, that's ok if I hit play and hear helicopters flying overhear, I 'll at least know my desktop is running =)
[13:47:55] <Jymmm> archivist: That's what I'm trying to avoid actually. Get's caught on everything
[13:50:17] <Tom_itx> http://www.adorama.com/KSUR20.html?hotlink=t&svfor=5m&gclid=CJ2arduT98kCFQiKaQodb1EIwQ
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[15:55:27] <_abc_> Re. I ran some tests and am unable to run linuxcnc on this computer, in quemu or not. Image is 2.7 live iso, booted as failsafe. Error messages and some attempts to fix it: http://188.25.93.20:8881/mypaste/1cd200d54c02b38a2563
[15:56:59] <_abc_> Any ideas on what else to try are welcome. In qemu or hw. I have 3 more computers to test this on, one only on Monday.
[15:57:13] <_abc_> The errors seen in qemu are the same as here.
[15:58:46] <cpresser> _abc_: those errors look quite serious. my guess would be that rtai is not compatible with qemu
[15:59:24] <pcw_home> [ 87.598992] RTAI[hal]: ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED.
[15:59:25] <pcw_home> is the one the needs fixing
[16:00:46] <pcw_home> AFAIK LinuxCNC beyond 8.04? requires a APIC on X86 systems
[16:01:28] <pcw_home> (OS newer than Ubuntu 8.04 I mean)
[16:02:24] <pcw_home> Often the APIC is enabled with a BIOS option
[16:04:27] <pcw_home> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TroubleShooting#LinuxCNC_doesn_t_run_missing_lapic
[16:04:54] <_abc_> cpresser: I got the errors again after booting from the iso image, on the same laptop. Which works if you see this...
[16:05:09] <_abc_> apic is on here
[16:05:33] <_abc_> cat /proc/cpuinfo |grep apic -> apic
[16:05:48] <pcw_home> that fine but it needs to be enabled
[16:05:52] <_abc_> If you read the message it is not about a missing apic but about it not being enabled or something? My 2.6 kernel sees it fine
[16:06:17] <_abc_> So it's something about the kernel in the rtai iso which does not like this apic.
[16:06:19] <pcw_home> please read the wiki entry
[16:06:34] <_abc_> I did nothing special for it to work. I will read it right now. Give me a minute.
[16:07:03] <_abc_> Also, no thanks for google not finding that page when I asked nicely several times.
[16:07:52] <_abc_> Okay so in theory if the lapic works on the underlying system then qemu should also see it?
[16:08:01] * _abc_ will try this now instead of rebooting again
[16:09:20] <_abc_> Ahh wait I always booted the failsafe option which has nolapic in the grub cli
[16:09:37] <_abc_> Now I edited lapic out in that line and we'll see. If it only were so simple...
[16:10:41] <pcw_home> LinuxCNC realtime will likely not run with any virtualizer ( it may crawl... )
[16:11:34] <_abc_> (it cralws, it's okay it's for testing purposes)
[16:12:29] <irontree9> grrrrr a foreign object buried in the wood just ruined my cut
[16:13:48] <_abc_> irontree9: work in ironwood to match your nick...
[16:14:07] <_abc_> irontree9: just curious, what was it? wood knot or metal? Nail? Staple?
[16:14:24] <irontree9> trying to dig it out now
[16:15:37] <_abc_> Broken mill?
[16:15:47] <_abc_> That should not occur, unless you used a very delicate mill?
[16:16:53] <_abc_> That being said, crawling is relative, I assume a kvm augmented qemu will not be too slow
[16:17:41] <pcw_home> I would not expect it to be useful controlling a real machine
[16:17:46] <_abc_> Only sim.
[16:18:17] <_abc_> Working out the subroutines and other business in source files would greatly benefit from the ability to sim them before.
[16:19:30] <_abc_> (why the f* will all debian systems start nfs and associated daemons at boot time?!)
[16:19:37] <cpresser> you dont need realtime for sim
[16:19:43] <_abc_> I have my hands full as is, no need for more things to turn off
[16:19:59] <irontree9> nothing......there ..... The mill cuts through knots just fine.. But in this cut it was hanging up on something over and over again at one spot.... checking the rails
[16:20:06] <_abc_> cpresser: I know but linuxcnc refuses to run as is from live and I am working on making that happen
[16:20:42] <cpresser> _abc_: i just installed the sim-packages on my linux notebook
[16:20:43] <_abc_> irontree9: good one. Your machine is open loop stepper? Need to reindex to start over?
[16:21:06] <_abc_> cpresser: I know it can be done, for now I want to see it in the 'live' cd, later will be done otherwise or not.
[16:21:19] <_abc_> cpresser: So my goal now is to make that sim work in the live cd
[16:21:24] <irontree9> yes _abc_
[16:21:33] <_abc_> irontree9: ouch.
[16:21:53] <irontree9> Yes, it is a real pita
[16:22:27] <cpresser> afaik, the live-cd uses realtime.
[16:22:31] <_abc_> Wow is this what you do on xmas day...
[16:22:55] <_abc_> cpresser: yes the kernels are realtime.
[16:23:49] <cpresser> so the simple way would be to get sim packages from here: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[16:24:42] <cpresser> 'uspace' works on 'normal' linux for simulation purposes
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[16:26:05] <_abc_> is buildbot linked from top level linuxcnc.org ? I can't see it. It has to be there.
[16:28:33] <irontree9> The less flutes the more cutting force on each tooth right, if the chip load is constant?
[16:29:45] <CaptHindsight> if the edges are in contact with the material at the same time
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[16:34:25] <irontree9> I am just trying to understand why Dremel cutters have so many flutes. The 2 flute saw bit cut fine, but 7 and 12 flute bits are just too much. Not sure if Dremel is expecting people to put their full body weight on the cutter or something.
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[16:37:06] <maxcnc> hi all and merry xmas to all of you from germany
[16:37:08] <CaptHindsight> can you imagine a hand held rotary tool with a 1/2" end mill going 50k rpm?
[16:37:56] <maxcnc> CaptHindsight: that might give a nice sound
[16:38:43] <irontree9> I think they have a 3/8" with 1/8" shaft and they spin at 35k
[16:39:17] <maxcnc> proxxon has some of this in stock
[16:40:29] <maxcnc> http://www.proxxon.com/de/micromot/einsatzwerkzeuge_profilfraeser.php?list
[16:41:44] <irontree9> I mean the Dremel does great with detail work. I was able to cut out a spear with .1mm accuracy. Dam thing is just real picky when ruffing out.
[16:41:47] <maxcnc> works fine on wood chiping
[16:42:10] <_abc_> I have little ball mills from Proxxon with many flutes.
[16:42:11] <maxcnc> proxxon is 100% more then dremel
[16:42:39] <_abc_> No idea why they make them like that, they are worthless when not used in their machines. I broke one iff without even trying in a normal cnc
[16:43:04] <_abc_> *off
[16:43:28] <_abc_> Also they do not seem to be ground into shape they are pressed or cast or hot formed.
[16:43:42] <_abc_> Maybe they temper them after that but it's not okay for a normal machine.
[16:44:19] <maxcnc> normel mashines can handel almost er11
[16:44:38] <maxcnc> so no need for this tools to be involved in shaping
[16:44:48] <maxcnc> real tools can be aplyed
[16:45:30] <_abc_> It broke in a 30krpm 1.5kW spindle at low cutting speed. I did not even increase speed to account for the extra cutting edges, it had about 6 or more, and I had speed for a 2 edged fishtail.
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[16:45:45] <CaptHindsight> cheap tools for hobbyists, that's their market
[16:45:46] <_abc_> After that I used the fishtail with the same params, worked fine
[16:46:21] <_abc_> Just tried to be clever because the ball radius could do what I needed in one pass instead of 10.
[16:46:25] <_abc_> Sigh.
[16:46:33] <maxcnc> fishtail might be VM not hss
[16:46:37] <CaptHindsight> if hobbyists stopped buying them then they would change their product
[16:46:37] <irontree9> Well the more I learn and test with Dremel the less and less impressed I am with them. The chuck likes to let lose when there is to much lateral force, drop the cutter and re-grip at a lower Z height....... Then the cnc machine starts a fire.
[16:46:57] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: many tiny teeth on a ball mill means you can't grab massive chunks and break it off in wood, forec
[16:46:58] <SpeedEvil> x
[16:47:37] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: It was plastic, acetate or hdpe, 30krpm, iirc 0.3mm cut depth and probably 10-20mm/sec
[16:47:38] <maxcnc> irontree9: wood or plastics to cut
[16:47:43] <irontree9> wood
[16:48:03] <maxcnc> size up to 10 inches or lower
[16:48:06] <irontree9> soft wood mostly but I was able to cut on hard oak just fine with 2 flutes
[16:48:07] <_abc_> SpeedEvil: It did not melt, it simply grabbed the ball and ripped it off
[16:48:31] <irontree9> wow
[16:48:32] <_abc_> One flute cutters are technically the strongest also the slowest.
[16:48:48] <SpeedEvil> _abc_: zero flute cutters are stronger and slower
[16:48:53] <_abc_> hehe
[16:49:00] <maxcnc> irontree9: if you realy want to stay low cost with no hyanyang or vf spindel look on a proxxon IBe
[16:49:01] <SpeedEvil> (friction welding/...)
[16:49:33] <_abc_> maxcnc: there's Isel from your country... MUCH better.
[16:49:39] <maxcnc> irontree9: thats what i use on most mashines and it works for 2-3hr of standard cuttiung with no cooling
[16:49:56] <maxcnc> _abc_: but mutch expensiver
[16:50:00] <_abc_> Yes.
[16:50:19] <irontree9> Yeah starting to look like %90 of all my problems are with using the wrong cutter
[16:50:26] <maxcnc> is irontree9 in europ ?
[16:50:35] <irontree9> no, in America
[16:50:53] <_abc_> Also there's the other guys, Bungard
[16:50:55] <maxcnc> but not in tornado alley i hope from germany
[16:50:56] <irontree9> Just got finished with a hand built CNC and trying to fine tune it
[16:50:58] <_abc_> They also have nice spindles
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[16:52:21] <_abc_> https://vimeo.com/66010670 someone know this machine?
[16:53:02] <maxcnc> _abc_: bungard use kavo spindels
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[16:53:22] <_abc_> I know. I have access to a Kavo spindle. They are called something else now.
[16:53:34] <_abc_> Also I made a vfd for 30V~ 1kHz Kavo spindle.
[16:55:06] <maxcnc> _abc_: the mashine of bungard have no downforce only gravety so you cand do more then PCB
[16:55:39] <_abc_> Really? I only saw the spindle
[16:55:47] <_abc_> The gravity only one is surely only for drilling?
[16:55:59] <maxcnc> they are only on roll suporters with no back grap
[16:56:24] <_abc_> hm?
[16:56:30] <maxcnc> in the side profile is a pin so the yz does not fly of
[16:57:00] <_abc_> I am not following. Are you saying they are only for light duty engraving and milling?
[16:57:10] <maxcnc> it has 0.2mm of space
[16:57:42] <irontree9> http://www.lakeshorecarbide.com/18stubcarbideballendmill2flutealtincoated.aspx
[16:57:48] <maxcnc> i never realy had one but its in there anoncement not for milling
[16:58:14] <maxcnc> irontree9: what size does your mill got in worklace
[16:58:21] <maxcnc> place
[16:58:51] <irontree9> 20x16cm
[17:00:06] <maxcnc> whow we build them here for the Universetyes in this size
[17:00:22] <_abc_> maxcnc: 0.2mm Z axis play? Or backlash?
[17:00:22] <maxcnc> use proxxon and you are realy good in usige
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[17:00:53] <XXCoder> merry xmas all, enjoy this nog! https://i.imgur.com/yyg6MJV.jpg
[17:01:10] <maxcnc> _abc_: its the space that the Z axis has to grap the profile for the downforce to drill
[17:01:24] <_abc_> grap? grab? Move?
[17:01:50] <irontree9> ahhh crap found the problem!!! broken mill
[17:02:04] <maxcnc> grab
[17:02:04] <_abc_> :~(
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[17:02:41] <maxcnc> hard for me as a non english man to tell how to
[17:03:24] <_abc_> ok. Post a link ;)
[17:03:29] <_abc_> Can be in German.
[17:04:07] <maxcnc> let me say it that way the bungard is not to be used in xy as Z has force
[17:04:37] <maxcnc> "kein Z gegenlager"
[17:04:50] <_abc_> Okay!
[17:05:25] <_abc_> But KAVO spindles do have very nice backlash-free Z axis bearings.
[17:05:40] <_abc_> At least the 4000 series I know?!
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[17:05:57] <maxcnc> thats needed for pcb
[17:06:07] <irontree9> the z-axis move like 5mm!! when I exactly push hard on it the negative direction of the x-axis
[17:06:20] <maxcnc> as you got the full yZ weight as downforce
[17:06:26] <XXCoder> thats hell of backlash
[17:06:31] <_abc_> You mean the machine, not the spindle itself, right? The machine's Z axis?
[17:06:44] <maxcnc> yes
[17:07:21] <irontree9> yeah, I see the problem the slide rail holder is broken
[17:07:23] <_abc_> Okay. Because the Kavo spindle is in another machine ( :-) ) and it does NOT have backlash. Also that silly spindle is only 100W and costs as much as an entire chinese cnc with spindle
[17:07:47] <_abc_> irontree9: so it got wedged at that place? The carriage?
[17:08:08] <_abc_> *as much as a complete chinese cnc with 1.5kW water cooled spindle
[17:09:55] <maxcnc> im off Gn8 have a good xmas dinner and firerwork if you have one
[17:10:02] <irontree9> no, it just loses alignment at a certain lateral force and starts to plunge the spindle
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[17:10:20] <_abc_> What's minimum ram to run linuxcnc please? 512MB?
[17:10:35] <archivist> more these days
[17:10:39] <_abc_> 1G?
[17:11:10] <archivist> depends on versions and what you are doing
[17:11:16] <irontree9> be a easy fix, be up and running before the day is out :)
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[17:14:17] <_abc_> archivist: just sim in gui
[17:18:12] <_abc_> Wow the world is changing. Indian PM vists Paki PM! O.o
[17:26:59] <Jymmm> LOL. let me get right on that... From: Support Appel <ne-reply@appel-id.com> Your apple ID was used to login to your iCloud account through unknown device. Your apple account is now blocked temporarily. Please login to your account to verify your personal information now.
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[17:44:49] <_abc_> appel or apple?
[17:45:11] <CaptHindsight> apfel
[17:45:11] <_abc_> Jymmm: to be phished by the oem. That is what it is!
[17:45:25] <_abc_> Or is that a lot of typos on your side?
[17:45:31] <_abc_> *from you
[17:45:38] * _abc_ should slow down with wine consumption.
[17:46:19] <_abc_> Wait, Jymmm, is that really spelled as you wrote?
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[17:46:31] <archivist> deliberate tyop to catch the unwary to click a phishing url
[17:46:40] <_abc_> ...
[17:47:56] <_abc_> Okay so linuxcnc-2.7-live current does run under qemu with lapic enabled (do not use the failsafe image), but is dog slow and a memory hog.
[17:49:52] <archivist> I want a stepper motor with a defined set of wire colours..., got one here working but making strange noises
[17:51:11] <archivist> must be a way of sorting out the 8 wires without going through every combination
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[17:52:40] <Roguish> archivist: check resistance continuity. you should be able to find pairs with 0 (or near 0) resistance. and get 4 coils
[17:53:09] <archivist> found the 4 coils, that was the easy bit
[17:53:51] <archivist> one site says The eight wires represent four pairs of wires, and each pair has the same resistance. It is not easy to find what two pairs represent phase A and phase B without dismantling the motor.
[17:54:57] <Roguish> yeah, i'm not good on steppers. if you can take an end cap off without pulling the rotor out, that might be the best.
[17:55:42] <Roguish> otherwise, good luck, patience is a virtue. and MAKE NOTES.
[17:56:18] <archivist> that is also the best way of getting filings into them :)
[18:02:21] <archivist> might be a good method http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/operate_stepper_windings.html
[18:03:08] <archivist> put pairs in series with one coil backwards, 0 current
[18:10:19] <_abc_> No need to dismantle, you can figure out the wires using leds or whatever connected to them.
[18:10:29] <_abc_> Blink on step.
[18:10:54] <_abc_> 4 leds needed.
[18:10:56] <_abc_> archivist: ^
[18:18:12] <_abc_> http://news.nationalpost.com/news/google-company-unleashes-creepy-robot-reindeer-just-in-time-for-christmas this is really really creepy
[18:18:23] <_abc_> Second time I post it on freenode in 2 days
[18:18:48] <_abc_> Has linuxcnc been 'misused' to operate zoomorphic bots?
[18:18:58] <_abc_> Not in those pics, in general
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[18:24:54] <archivist> _abc_, leds dont tell you the phase of the coils on an 8 wire motor
[18:25:07] <archivist> but a scope does, just tried it
[18:25:32] <_abc_> The leds tell you the phase. You need to turn them around if they blink out of phase ;)
[18:25:36] <_abc_> One by one
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[18:26:35] <archivist> when the correct coil pair are in series they add/subtract
[18:26:40] <_abc_> You have 2 leds on 'right' the 1st time, by default, then you simply turn the remaining 2 around if needed. 4 trials all together. Then you know polarity and phase on all coils. You obviously ohm the coils 1st
[18:26:55] <_abc_> archivist: yes but in non obvious ways when on successive phases
[18:26:59] <_abc_> 90 degrees out
[18:27:25] <archivist> you only get the 180 degrees on the correct pair
[18:27:32] <archivist> is obvious
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[18:28:15] <_abc_> Yes but scope is too delicate for this, in my case, and 4 leds are 4 scope channels ;)
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[18:28:43] <archivist> delicate!!!,
[18:33:04] <Deejay> poor mans oscilloscope? ;)
[18:33:17] <_abc_> Nobody is so poor as not to have 4 leds
[18:36:14] <archivist> I have a grown up scope
[18:36:53] <_abc_> The one I have at the lab is too grown up.
[18:37:04] <_abc_> Wheelie stand and all. Tek 7000
[18:37:11] <_abc_> series
[18:37:53] <archivist> I have a tek 7000 in the lounge, using the younger (just) Advance
[18:39:37] <archivist> but half way to making a test rig for a couple of the myths people think are true but which are not
[18:40:00] * _abc_ smells free energy and runs
[18:40:31] <archivist> nope stepper and rotary table accuracy
[18:41:45] <archivist> stepper drives an encoder (1000 line 4k quad) then a worm drive then another encoder this time 5000 line
[18:42:14] <archivist> should be able to see the various types of error
[18:42:47] <archivist> using linuxcnc to drive system and log it to file
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[19:33:23] <Jymmm> _abc_: Yep, that's verbatim how they spelled it =)
[19:33:50] <Jymmm> _abc_: That's why I thought it was so funny
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[19:40:38] <Jymmm> _abc_: That's not creepy, Hollywood has been doing that for decades. Now, THIS on the other hand, err mouth... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmSYnOvEueo
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[20:25:21] <_abc_> Jymmm: https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=pong+animatronic+head&biw=1162&bih=444&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X
[20:30:20] <Jymmm> _abc_: Nah, that's just animatronics. Disney made a killing on that =)
[20:31:20] <_abc_> diy > disney
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[21:59:27] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:17:59] <malcom2073> archivist: The kind of people who care, already know, and the kind of people who believe otherwise, wouldn't watch a video stating reality :P
[22:19:49] <malcom2073> Are you targeting the myths about microstepping and precision in relation to a rotary table?
[22:23:51] <cncbasher_> archivist would need a novel , or a full movie for that
[22:26:01] * JT-Shop tries to figure out the bare minimum to fire up a 5i25
[22:26:11] <JT-Shop> I think you can just do it in halrun???
[22:30:35] <JT-Shop> with a 5i25 you don't need a base thread iirc???
[22:35:43] <JT-Shop> should these few lines start up the 5i25? http://pastebin.com/VU9DkAGE
[22:36:02] <JT-Shop> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122-rtai/modules/linuxcnc/hm2_pci.ko': -1 Unknown symbol in module
[22:57:58] <cncbasher_> what ur doing jt ?
[22:58:23] <cncbasher_> ubuntu 10_04 ?
[23:00:34] <cncbasher_> the hostmot2 drivers have been updated since ubuntu ( i believe ) so might be where some differences my lie
[23:00:56] <cncbasher_> hence the unknown symbol
[23:01:21] <cncbasher_> or as mere mortals know it as a name change
[23:02:45] -!- Duc [Duc!~Duc@24.96.23.106] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:04:48] <JT-Shop> well crap, I reverted back to 2.6 to just be able to run until I get the 7i77GALV card
[23:04:57] <JT-Shop> yea 10.04
[23:05:28] <cncbasher_> are you using the 7i77 too
[23:05:49] <cncbasher_> you can delete the config " "
[23:06:13] <cncbasher_> then it will only take whats in the 5i25 bit file
[23:07:33] <cncbasher_> if it's a new bit file , then thats probably what it is , do you use a rip build ?
[23:07:36] <JT-Shop> yes the 7i77 is being used
[23:08:20] <JT-Shop> let me back up, I changed to 2.7 AND flashed the 5i25 with the latest bit file then reverted back to 2.6
[23:08:43] <cncbasher_> if you use a rip build it should work
[23:08:46] <JT-Shop> now I get the error you say
[23:08:56] <JT-Shop> rip of 2.6?
[23:09:14] <JT-Shop> how is that different from the deb?
[23:10:06] <JT-Shop> running 2.6.11 and the sim won't even run
[23:10:12] <JT-Shop> I might have other problems
[23:10:23] <cncbasher_> to use 2.6 you may need to copy the newer hostmot2 driver from 2.7 to 2.6 then build
[23:11:05] <JT-Shop> or flash the 5i25 with an older bit file?
[23:11:09] <cncbasher_> yes
[23:11:39] <JT-Shop> let me see if I still have the last one I used before this one
[23:12:14] <JT-Shop> ok I rebooted and the sim runs now
[23:12:19] <JT-Shop> I'll try the other
[23:12:21] <cncbasher_> good
[23:13:44] <cncbasher_> their were updates to the sserial so that would have changed the driver , you see
[23:18:05] <JT-Shop> I found the bit files from 2013...
[23:19:31] <cncbasher_> that should do it
[23:19:33] <JT-Shop> I never would have thought a probe would be so much trouble...
[23:19:43] <cncbasher_> oh whats up
[23:20:03] <cncbasher_> anything i can help with ?
[23:20:10] <JT-Shop> to use the probe with the 7i77 encoder input you need 2.7...
[23:20:39] <JT-Shop> well the 2.7 hostmot2 driver has a bug and if you get one sserial error it just shuts down
[23:21:48] <JT-Shop> I can't even start the config it just errors out with sserial errors and stops
[23:24:17] <JT-Shop> for some reason the FPGA read thread is not running
[23:25:12] -!- johnt [johnt!~john@172.243.171.57] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:25:24] <cncbasher_> interesting
[23:25:44] <johnt> Starting LinuxCNC...
[23:25:44] <johnt> hm2/hm2_5i25.0: Smart Serial Error: port 0 channel 1. You may see this error if the FPGA card read thread is not running. This error message will not repeat.
[23:26:38] <johnt> same error as before
[23:26:41] <cncbasher_> is the 7i77 serial firmware updated too
[23:27:17] <johnt> not sure what you mean, the firmware is on the 5i25 afik
[23:27:39] johnt is now known as JT-BP
[23:27:42] <cncbasher_> theirs also firmware in the 7i77 too
[23:28:58] <JT-BP> I did sudo mesaflash --device 5i25 --write 7i77x2.bit
[23:29:01] <cncbasher_> if the 5i25 and the 7i77 are running different versions of sserial for example , that might account for the error
[23:29:04] -!- sumpfralle [sumpfralle!~lars@erina.opennet-initiative.de] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:29:56] <cncbasher_> check with pcw as to the sserial version in the 7i77
[23:31:00] <JT-Shop> the only thing I changed was the 5i25
[23:31:16] <cncbasher_> might be worth checking
[23:31:25] <cncbasher_> the sserial software
[23:31:38] <JT-Shop> how do you do that?
[23:31:56] <cncbasher_> ha now i have to remember how ,
[23:32:10] <JT-Shop> I have the same problem lol
[23:32:19] <cncbasher_> bb , it's on the forum i know see if i can find it
[23:33:50] <Duc> The yaskawa motors a little scary for speed during auto tune
[23:33:52] <Duc> lol
[23:33:57] <cncbasher_> https://forum.linuxcnc.org/forum/9-installing-linuxcnc/29719-warning-after-upgrade-to-ver-2-7-0#63414
[23:34:12] <JT-Shop> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-kVFfKezVo
[23:36:37] <JT-Shop> crap, I get an error trying to unzip the sserial.zip file
[23:36:40] <Duc> anyone have a good link for tuning servo motors
[23:37:47] <JT-Shop> well I do
[23:38:06] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/index.html
[23:38:10] <JT-Shop> my place
[23:38:42] <cncbasher_> 1 min jt i'll have it archived her e
[23:38:46] <Duc> awesome thanks.
[23:42:05] <Duc> PID output is y-output for signal if Im working on y axis
[23:42:07] <Duc> ?
[23:42:56] -!- justanotherelf has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[23:43:18] -!- cncbasher_ has quit [Read error: No route to host]
[23:43:27] <JT-Shop> something like that
[23:44:15] <Duc> do you remember the scale used for the PID
[23:44:41] <JT-Shop> I'd think that would be machine specific
[23:44:45] <Duc> ok
[23:45:22] -!- cncbasher [cncbasher!~cncbasher@cpc8-hart9-2-0-cust254.11-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:45:31] <Duc> Is there a way to adjust the P, I , D values without reloading program?
[23:46:07] <JT-Shop> in Axis Machine > Calibration
[23:48:27] <Duc> ok
[23:49:34] * JT-Shop goes to warm up the Christmas ham bit
[23:50:30] <pcw_home> AFAIK there are no incompatibilities in sserial host and remote software versions
[23:50:52] <Jymmm> wth is 's'serial ?
[23:50:57] <JT-Shop> I must have other problems...
[23:51:17] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: set oven to 325F
[23:51:31] <JT-Shop> I have to slice it first
[23:51:45] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Ah
[23:52:07] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: got chainsaw?
[23:52:11] <pcw_home> did you check that you reinstalled the WD lines in the HAL file?
[23:52:15] <JT-Shop> two of them
[23:52:36] <JT-Shop> yes wait lines? maybe only one
[23:52:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: chainsaw == instant-slice-o-matic!!!
[23:53:27] <JT-Shop> well if you don't uncomment the addf wd line it won't work
[23:53:31] <pcw_home> there needs to be something that sets the timeout and the addf pet watchdog line
[23:53:56] <pcw_home> it wont work for 2.6
[23:54:20] <Jymmm> We had a NY Roast on the barbie, and tossed in some cedar, came out EXCELENT
[23:54:25] <JT-Shop> thanks for thinking of the wd lines
[23:54:35] <JT-Shop> back to running now
[23:54:44] <pcw_home> (the WD bites, the outputs are disabled and sserial bellyaches when its TX fails )
[23:55:05] <JT-Shop> yep
[23:55:08] <Jymmm> what is 'sserial' ?
[23:55:09] <pcw_home> (no TX means no RX so timeout)
[23:55:24] <JT-Shop> a touch screen is not the best when setting up
[23:55:33] -!- cncbasher_ [cncbasher_!~Sarah@cpc8-hart9-2-0-cust254.11-3.cable.virginm.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[23:56:09] * JT-Shop has to get warming up some chow for me and the missus
[23:57:00] <JT-Shop> merry christmas to all
[23:57:01] -!- cncbasher has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
[23:57:10] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie