#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-12-02

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[00:17:44] <jthornton> very good
[00:18:23] <jthornton> http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/saeujeon
[00:18:45] <PetefromTn_> huh my wife is making shrimp stir fry right now.... never had a shrimp pancake tho
[00:19:38] <jthornton> korean pancake is not like american pancake lol
[00:19:44] <jthornton> they are some kind of good
[00:19:52] <PetefromTn_> yeah apparently
[00:24:54] <PetefromTn_> those are some nice jumbo shrimp LOL
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[00:38:29] <jthornton> this is also a good one http://www.maangchi.com/recipe/ya-chae-jeon
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[00:48:03] <Contract_Pilot> Afrernoon
[00:48:15] <Tom_itx> pinhole leak fixed
[00:48:41] <Tom_itx> changed out some bad shutoff valves while i was at it
[00:56:44] <fenn> might be water hammer
[00:57:24] <fenn> do you have an air cushion space in the pipes?
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[01:14:36] <andypugh> Well, that was tedious. Wiring a cable to a Lemo 2B conector.
[01:15:15] <Sync> depending on the insert they can be annoying
[01:15:28] <andypugh> the cable is overall screened, then contains 3 x individually screened pairs, 2 thicker power wires and 4 smaller signal cables.
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[01:16:07] <Sync> the 16 pin one is incredibly tricky
[01:16:48] <andypugh> It’s a loose-terminal connector, which is better in some ways, but if there is _any_ solder on the outside of the terminal where the wire goes in then it won’t fit into the housing.
[01:16:56] <andypugh> These are, indeed, 16 pin ones.
[01:17:19] <andypugh> Though this was actualy easier than the 4-pin size 00 ones.
[01:17:56] <Sync> I wonder how good chinaclone lemos are
[01:18:08] <andypugh> But with all those screens there is an awful lot of wire whiskerage to short things out.
[01:18:38] <andypugh> One of the wires broke off the terminal as the terminal clicked in.
[01:18:49] <Sync> nice
[01:18:56] <Sync> I usually get the soldercup ones
[01:19:01] <andypugh> the teminals are sub-flush, and I don’t have an extractor.
[01:19:19] <Sync> that's the first thing I order before I even order the crimp tool
[01:19:30] <andypugh> solder-cup with this cable would be _horrible_
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[01:20:47] <Sync> dunno, I never had real issues with it as you have quite a lot of space in the connector body
[01:21:17] <andypugh> I think I should have stripped a longer length of the outer.
[01:21:23] <Sync> although ordering only the real crimp tooling gets really annoyingly expensive fast
[01:21:27] <Sync> probably
[01:21:49] <andypugh> The outer sheath came all the way through the collet and into the body, I suspect it isn’t meant to.
[01:22:19] <andypugh> Pin extractor is £47. Not as bad as I guessed, but still pretty expensive.
[01:24:07] <Sync> yeah
[01:24:15] <Sync> they are made from gold apparently
[01:25:18] <malcom2073> I hate lemo conectors, but the solder cup ones....
[01:25:24] <malcom2073> Nightmares are made of those
[01:26:13] <Sync> nah, they are okay
[01:26:17] <andypugh> They are very nice connectors. I can’t see anything else with the same pin-density being easier.
[01:30:33] <andypugh> One thing I am not sure of with Lemo is what is meant to happen with the shield
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[01:37:14] <andypugh> Crikey, assembling the cable took a _lot_ longer than I thought. I thought it was about 10pm, not 0130!
[01:37:27] <andypugh> Sleeping time.
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[01:53:12] <__rob2> anyone know how different Tormachs PathPilot is from LinuxCNC ?
[01:53:23] <fenn> it has pretty icons
[01:54:07] <__rob2> so I could swap it out for LinuxCNC, so I don't have to wait for them to recompile ?
[01:54:23] <fenn> it's the same thing under the hood
[01:54:47] <__rob2> right, thats good
[01:54:58] <__rob2> just need to find which post processor will work for inventor
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[01:58:15] <jdh> inventor does cam?
[01:58:52] <__rob2> yea
[01:59:21] <__rob2> used it with mach3 and its not bad
[02:00:04] <__rob2> generates 4 axis toolpaths too
[02:01:24] <__rob2> whats the best stanalone cam package ?
[02:01:34] <__rob2> for generating toolpaths
[02:01:35] <malcom2073> Someone was working on getting path pilot it working with parport, don't know if they made any progress
[02:04:29] <Erant> __rob2: Fusion360 has an 'emc' setting.
[02:05:21] <Erant> I use Fusion360 for CAM, and it's really nice.
[02:05:42] <__rob2> there is "generic EMC" listed in inventor
[02:05:58] <__rob2> wondering if that will be able to use the ATC
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[02:50:48] <FloppyDisk> That's odd that inventor has CAM when Autodesk has the HSMExpress CAM package - good for Solidworks and AutoDesk. The 2 1/2D is free, but full 3d contouring costs$$$
[02:50:53] <FloppyDisk> Lot's of $$$$
[02:54:08] <FloppyDisk> Oh - the HSMExpress has post processors for both mach and linuxcnc. Works pretty nice. The 2 1/2D is free, you do have to register it.
[02:55:04] <PetefromTn_> the fusion 360 is full 3D no?
[02:58:44] <FloppyDisk> I just watched a 2 min video on fusion 360, looks nice. Thought it was just CAD, but it's CAD/CAM. It does cost $300 annually.
[02:59:09] <PetefromTn_> actually it is free for students and startups/hobbyists
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[03:07:22] <FloppyDisk> Nice...
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[07:54:56] <Deejay> moin
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[07:56:09] <MikkoP> Hey :)
[07:57:15] <MikkoP> 230 US $ a good price for 3x 600 mm ball screws with nuts, BF/BK12 end supports and couplings for the motors?
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[08:24:33] <archivist> there will be a price v quality trade off
[08:25:45] <MikkoP> archivist: Yes, the higher quality ones cost a lot more as they are more for industrial applications.
[08:26:27] <MikkoP> I don't want to spend too much for high quality ones from known brands, I'd be ordering these from China via eBay
[08:29:07] <archivist> is it a rolled or ground screw
[08:30:37] <MikkoP> Not sure, it doesn't say.
[08:32:44] <archivist> assume rolled for cheaper stuff
[08:33:26] <MikkoP> 35 euros is quite cheap for 600 mm I guess?
[08:33:51] <archivist> very
[08:34:24] <archivist> I am assuming something like http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1x-L600mm-CNC-SFU1605-Ball-Screw-Ballscrew-with-Single-Ballnut-End-Machined-DUS-/381416974969
[08:35:13] <MikkoP> Not that one exactly but http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bearing-Steel-Ball-Screw-SFU1605-L600mm-Ballscrew-W-Single-Ballnut-for-CNC-Tool-/321930589805?hash=item4af48ef66d:g:lvAAAOSwgyxWVYD1
[08:37:35] <MikkoP> Do you think these would work?
[08:38:08] <archivist> well enough for many jobs probably
[08:38:18] <archivist> what machine?
[08:38:44] <MikkoP> I'm designing and building my own CNC.
[08:39:13] <archivist> so machine what
[08:39:20] <archivist> to machine what?
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[08:40:52] <MikkoP> Mostly softer materials like woods and plastic but I'd like to do metals too. I haven't really looked into specifics how much power one needs to mill aluminum and steel for example
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[08:42:47] <archivist> not too much power for light cuts, but rigidity needs to be better
[08:43:24] <archivist> I made my own machine too from scrap and old bits of machines
[08:43:55] <MikkoP> I ordered three NEMA 23 motors each 300 Ncm or 425 oz in. They seemed to be quite high in the range of these motors in terms of thrust
[08:44:36] <MikkoP> Yea and it also depends quite a lot on the drilling too. I have some Dremel lookalike which I think could do the job for soft materials at least
[08:47:49] <archivist> I used an old lathe headstock as my mill spindle
[08:48:07] <archivist> then a 3 phase motor with vfd
[08:50:37] <MikkoP> Does it work well?
[08:52:31] <archivist> for certain jobs like small gears yes
[08:54:00] <archivist> has two rotary tables to make it 5 axis
[08:55:09] <MikkoP> Nice. I'm not sure what to expect from a homemade machine as I've never built one. I'd like to get it as precise as possible but I'm not sure what I can achieve with limited budget and tools
[08:55:14] <archivist> next job will be to replace the column to make it more sturdy
[08:55:31] <MikkoP> What material have you made it out of?
[08:56:01] <archivist> the one thing about home made is you then know how to build better
[08:56:26] <archivist> part cast iron part steel part aluminium
[08:57:00] <MikkoP> Yes and it's always possible to upgrade it later. When it's working and if it can process metals I can use it to make replacement parts
[08:57:01] <archivist> when I had it at work http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_07_10_cnc_with_LCD_P4/IMG_0268.JPG
[08:58:09] <archivist> since then I replaced one screw and swapped an axis from X to Y and made a new X with ballscrew
[08:59:19] <MikkoP> Very compact design :D
[08:59:52] <archivist> new axis has rails instead http://www.archivist.info/cnc/screw_error/
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[09:00:42] <MikkoP> Yea
[09:06:26] <MikkoP> At the moment the problem is with the structure. I'm not sure what I should make it out of to make it rigid. Where I live it's hard to find a place to manufacture these and they are very expensive
[09:10:00] <archivist> is there a local metal supplier with cut to size
[09:12:37] <MikkoP> Some, but as said the prices are usually in the upper hundreds, near thousands of euros because they are mainly for large companies that need a lot of materials
[09:14:28] <archivist> my original x and y came from a tool setting machine
[09:14:46] <archivist> was from a local auction
[09:15:12] <archivist> the column was an old lathe bed
[09:15:38] <archivist> re used available bits and pieces
[09:16:14] <archivist> do you have a lathe to make some parts on
[09:17:42] <MikkoP> Reusing existing parts could make the process easier but I don't have access to any and don't really want to either.
[09:17:58] <MikkoP> No, I don't have a lathe. That would make a good project too to make an automated lathe
[09:19:07] <archivist> I have to run out and fix an email server
[09:19:20] <MikkoP> Sure, no problem. :)
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[09:44:04] <archivist_herron> now at other place
[09:45:38] <MikkoP> (y)
[09:46:49] <MikkoP> I'm looking for spindles and VHDs. Some come with quite a hefty price tag. How much power does steel processing need from the spindle?
[09:47:53] <fenn> make a structural steel box and fill it with concrete
[09:48:17] <fenn> power is proportional to material removal rate
[09:48:41] <MikkoP> A machine that nobody can move :D Great idea :D
[09:49:08] <fenn> that's why it's made of concrete, otherwise you'd have to lug around a big heavy machine :D
[09:50:25] <MikkoP> Naaa, my original idea was to use plywood so if possible, jumping to steel is already a huge leap
[09:50:47] <fenn> well reinforced concrete is essentially the same thhing
[09:51:22] <kengu> I would go for MDF and ditch plywood
[09:51:34] <fenn> they're both awful imho
[09:51:56] <MikkoP> Is MDF stiffer?
[09:52:05] <fenn> it's more dimensionally stable but weaker
[09:52:23] <MikkoP> fenn: Yea but on a limited budget and having limited tools and machinery it's hard to process or order steel parts
[09:53:11] <fenn> ok but do consider just making a reinforced concrete mold with your plywood instead
[09:53:43] <fenn> mass is important because it lowers the harmonic frequency of vibrations to a manageable level
[09:53:57] <fenn> and the amplitude goes down also
[09:54:15] <fenn> s/harmonic/fundamental/
[09:55:46] <MikkoP> True. But I still think I would sacrifice a little performance in favour of easier to work with materials
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[09:57:14] <fenn> yes a styrofoam board mold may be appropriate
[09:57:58] <MikkoPel> Still a bit messy and also hard to work with
[09:58:17] <fenn> nah you just use a razor blade utility knife to cut it
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[09:58:59] <MikkoPel> How you done anything with that?
[09:59:30] <fenn> not for concrete molds, but i did a fair amount of styrofoam work for lost foam aluminum casting
[10:00:17] <fenn> it's cheaper then plywood
[10:00:23] <fenn> than*
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[10:01:10] <MikkoPel> Yes it is. I'll google that and see what comes up
[10:01:34] MikkoPel is now known as MikkoP
[10:02:09] <fenn> there's an arts and crafts type with paper on both sides, and several house insulation types called "extruded polystyrene"
[10:02:46] <archivist_herron> angle iron and box section steel is not too expensive and way better than mdf
[10:03:07] <fenn> the arts and crafts type goes up to maybe 8mm and the house insulation 15 to 100 mm ?
[10:03:42] <MikkoP> Yea.
[10:04:39] <MikkoP> Box section steel and other similar are also quite cheap way and they are also sturdy. Plus drilling holes is easy. It might also work well
[10:04:55] <fenn> yes i'm going with box section steel
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[10:08:55] <MikkoP> I just contacted a local steel workshop (or whatever they are called) in order to see what cutting some steel plates costs approximately. If the price is reasonable I might go for it.
[10:09:58] <fenn> better to ask in person if they have any cut off pieces
[10:10:12] <fenn> if it's a steel supplier
[10:10:46] <fenn> this way you are talking to the guy who actually handles the steel, rather than the clerk whose job is to sell you something you don't want or need
[10:11:06] <MikkoP> Yea, this was just to see the general price level. And by local I mean it's 50 km drive so.. :D When I'm sure I'll drive but don't really bother to go now
[10:11:57] <MikkoP> I don't think these shops have any clerks, they have minimum staff working there. In Finland we don't really have this kind of companies.
[10:14:49] <fenn> another thing to keep in mind, is that although steel and cast iron are both mostly iron, steel has very low vibration damping
[10:16:06] <fenn> at any rate it's still much better than plywood or MDF
[10:17:09] <MikkoP> Most hard materials do as they aren't elastic. Wood absorbes vibrations much better. But is it really a problem in this scale? Does the motors and the spindle really generate that much vibration?
[10:17:53] <fenn> the cutter is what generates vibration, an impulse is generated each time a cutter tooth strikes the material
[10:18:49] <MikkoP> True but is it so high intensity that it could cause troubles?
[10:19:37] <fenn> it sets up vibrations at resonant frequencies, which quickly become large amplitude vibrations without any damping
[10:19:54] <MikkoP> Yea if they happen to resonate
[10:19:59] <XXCoder> heys
[10:20:05] <MikkoP> Hi :)
[10:20:21] <XXCoder> hummus + srarscha not sauce = yummy
[10:20:28] <fenn> nikola tesla had a nice demonstration where he clamped a small oscillating mass to a steel skyscraper frame and caused it to wobble like jelly
[10:20:50] <XXCoder> fenn: there was a mythbuster show on that
[10:21:10] <fenn> "there's an app for that" too
[10:21:15] <MikkoP> What is used to dampen it then?
[10:21:22] <XXCoder> you
[10:21:31] <XXCoder> heh
[10:22:21] <MikkoP> Because dampening also absorbes the power and some of the movement which makes it less accurate too
[10:22:28] <fenn> new buildings have seismic dampers, but for old things i'm not sure, maybe just stone plates sliding against each other?
[10:22:43] <MikkoP> Not buildings, CNCs :D
[10:22:57] <fenn> oh, well that's why i was suggesting filling with concrete
[10:22:58] <XXCoder> fenn: old ones has nothing to damp earthquake, if it matches freq it will break
[10:23:09] <XXCoder> fenn: or epoxy grinite
[10:23:12] <DaViruz> emco fills their steel frame machines with sand
[10:23:25] <fenn> i wasn't sure if sand would work
[10:24:57] <fenn> but that's good to hear.. much more reversible than concrete
[10:25:08] <MikkoP> Epoxy granite would be cool but that's also quite hard to use. Molds are always a bit hard because you'd have to have them perfect to have the parts fit
[10:25:20] <XXCoder> just mix em in\
[10:25:24] <XXCoder> no need to mold
[10:25:32] <XXCoder> assuming you has voids to fill
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[10:26:29] <MikkoP> Where would I put it then? Usually if there are voids that were one puts screws and such. Why would there be any other empty spaces?
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[10:28:26] <XXCoder> not a large machine?
[10:28:36] <fenn> i'm not sure but i think he just meant to cast the bearings and nuts in place
[10:28:39] <MikkoP> Maybe 40-50 cm of workspace
[10:28:55] <XXCoder> ahh yea I was assuming larger machine
[10:29:20] <XXCoder> fenn: yeah can be done like that too, though I'm not too sure on strength
[10:29:28] <MikkoP> fenn: but there would still be metal to metal contact
[10:29:47] <XXCoder> I recall there is special sheets that convert vibrations to heat
[10:29:59] <XXCoder> volkwagon beetles (classic) used em
[10:30:01] <fenn> science fiction
[10:30:09] <XXCoder> uh no, its not
[10:30:10] <DaViruz> science friction
[10:30:33] <fenn> tar mixed with something?
[10:30:38] <XXCoder> think so
[10:30:44] <XXCoder> high freq is damped
[10:30:58] <fenn> all frequencies
[10:31:02] <DaViruz> anything that plastically bends will do that
[10:31:24] <XXCoder> dunno, would it damp 1 HZ
[10:32:22] <MikkoP> Hmm, if I used steel box sections I could fill those with something
[10:32:46] <fenn> crushed granite
[10:33:13] <fenn> actually i did the calculations and granite is not that much heavier than sand
[10:33:32] <fenn> so sand is probably the best value
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[10:34:55] <MikkoP> Sand is much denser. I can only find crushed granite about 8-12 mm in size per grain
[10:35:06] <XXCoder> sand do effectively convert vibration to heat
[10:35:13] <XXCoder> though not sure what its damping range is
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[10:35:32] <MikkoP> Wouldn't granite then?
[10:35:50] <XXCoder> (though weirdly enough, heat is vibration so it is converting vibration to other type of vibration. lol
[10:35:50] <fenn> crushed granite is 2.7 g/cc and sand is 1.6 highest density is probably a mix of different size particles
[10:36:23] <fenn> larger size particles are denser
[10:36:29] <XXCoder> homebrew expoxy granite recipe do use various sizes of particles
[10:37:18] <MikkoP> So something like this should work? http://www.taloon.com/kuvat/k/benders/graniittimurske_valkoinen.jpg
[10:38:15] <fenn> seems like there would be more rubbing between smaller particles because there's a larger number of contact points
[10:38:18] <XXCoder> MikkoP: check this out http://www.cnccookbook.com/CCMillEpoxyFill.htm
[10:38:44] <fenn> loose sand vs epoxy sand is a different situation
[10:39:48] <DaViruz> valkoinen! one of tje few finnish words i know
[10:40:00] <DaViruz> that and ei saa peittää
[10:40:16] <XXCoder> there is 5 items in that guys homebrew - #6 alum oxide, #4 quartz, #2 quartz, #2/0 quartz, #800 zeeospheres
[10:40:22] <XXCoder> no idea what last one is
[10:40:45] <fenn> crushed zeeshans
[10:41:47] <XXCoder> actually it was just one of possible recipes. he actually used 62% grvel, 23% sand, 14% epoxy
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[10:42:18] <MikkoP> Hah, not really worth it to learn Finnish :D And "white" and "do not cover" seem like the most usuful words :D
[10:42:44] <XXCoder> do not cover the white
[10:43:03] <DaViruz> musta raha too!
[10:43:09] <DaViruz> that is userul!
[10:43:17] <DaViruz> not sure on the spelling though
[10:43:58] <MikkoP> musta raha means black money. What's that?
[10:44:18] <XXCoder> illegal activity money tsk tsk DaViruz
[10:44:27] <DaViruz> in sweden black money reder to income you havent paid tax for
[10:44:35] <DaViruz> refer
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[10:45:40] <MikkoP> Ah, that would be pimeä raha where pimeä is dark in English. But I'm not sure what's the correct phrase in English though. Tainted money?
[10:45:50] <DaViruz> i'm 1/4 finn, but i really don't know any of my finnish relatives
[10:47:12] <MikkoP> Would filling the steel box section reduce vibrations enough? I wouldn't like to use anything that sticks because then it becomes very heavy to move. If I used sand or crushed granite I could empty it
[10:47:53] <XXCoder> can always test
[10:48:09] <MikkoP> Yea, many of us Finns left to Sweden. The largest immigrant population in Sweden consists of Finnish people lol
[10:48:11] <XXCoder> fill one and see if less
[10:48:23] <fenn> i'd like to know the result of this experiment as well
[10:48:28] <DaViruz> strike a steel tune soth a hammer, fill it sith sand and try again. i haven't tried it, but i kmagine it would make a bif difference
[10:48:51] <XXCoder> yeah probably can hear difference
[10:49:06] <DaViruz> tube with*
[10:49:13] <MikkoP> If the difference is big enough it should be audible too
[10:49:35] <MikkoP> I might have some of that steel laying somewhere. I'll try to find it later
[10:49:48] <XXCoder> on that site I linked, "The whole casting is considerably heavier, and when tapped with a hammer, sounds a lot more solid and less "ringey"..."
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[10:50:49] <MikkoP> Yea the sound signature changes as the frequency changes and the ringing of the iron vanishes. But does it vibrate less then?
[10:50:56] <fenn> yes
[10:51:04] <XXCoder> I suppose less ringy means less vibration
[10:51:11] <MikkoP> Or does the amplitude just change and the total energy is still the same?
[10:51:30] <XXCoder> total energy is always same. physics
[10:51:41] <XXCoder> you want to convert it to other kind that do not vibrate
[10:51:42] <fenn> the energy is dissipated into the bulk material instead of being dissipated into the cutter tip flying off
[10:52:30] <MikkoP> Yea total energy is always the same but what I mean does the material inside the iron tube absorb it and the energy that is left for vibrating should be lower.
[10:53:06] <XXCoder> MikkoP: other idea for you from that site
[10:53:15] <XXCoder> use hockey pucks as feet to damp even more
[10:53:40] <fenn> yes the sand heats up a little bit by absorbing the vibration energy
[10:53:57] <MikkoP> Yea that was actually a great idea. It shouldn't affect the performance of the machine but it eliminates the effect of the machine's surroundings
[10:54:25] <MikkoP> fenn: but the question is if the absorbtion is high enough to make a difference
[10:54:27] <XXCoder> actually if on hard surface, machine vibrations would "bounce" off feet
[10:54:35] <XXCoder> pucks would kill that
[10:55:54] <DaViruz> the finns need all the hocke pucks they can find for hockey training though, if they ever are ro beat sweden ;)
[10:55:55] <MikkoP> Not all would bounce and because of that outside vibrations from other sources would add up to the total vibration of the mill
[10:56:06] <XXCoder> DaViruz: ebay. lol
[10:56:15] <fenn> is it enough damping? i don't know. more damping is always better
[10:56:23] <MikkoP> Didn't Finland just win a few years back? Can't be sure though, not a big fan of ice hockey :D
[10:56:38] <DaViruz> me neither :)
[10:56:47] <XXCoder> http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/MillStuff/CNC/EpoxyGraniteFill/P1010389.JPG
[10:57:13] <fenn> i'd like to see more quantitative measurements of various machine tools in the wild
[10:57:31] <fenn> instead of "yep she's a real beast that thar mill"
[10:57:44] <MikkoP> XXCoder that's something I think I'll implement because atleast that works
[10:58:12] <XXCoder> MikkoP: I think it is far more effective when your machine is much heavier with sand.,
[10:58:49] <MikkoP> Yea because those are quite hard they need more weight on top of them to work better
[11:01:43] <MikkoP> But steel box section is something we agree on that is good for this kind of build? Woods absorb more vibrations than steel but aren't as stiff. It is also quite easy to drill holes in them
[11:02:17] <fenn> yes steel is better because it's more rigid and won't change shape with humidity
[11:02:43] <XXCoder> yeah thats always been wood flaw
[11:02:54] <XXCoder> lamated wood isnt as sensive but still changes.
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[11:03:40] <MikkoP> That stuff is also easy to find even here in Finland. The downside of steel is that it doesn't look as pretty :D
[11:03:55] <fenn> matter of opinion
[11:04:51] <fenn> damascus steel is quite nice looking even to a woodworker
[11:04:52] <MikkoP> Well it's better if you paint it and know how to weld
[11:04:55] <DaViruz> a dab of paint and it looks just fine
[11:05:29] <DaViruz> unpainted semi rusty steel with mill scale is a real eyesore though
[11:06:57] <DaViruz> a grinder and paint makes me the welder i ain't
[11:07:04] <fenn> https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xft1/t51.2885-15/e35/11809971_132095223803483_800425889_n.jpg not my cup of tea but the space of steel finishes has hardly been explored
[11:07:36] <MikkoP> Yea take a blow torch and make it real pretty :D
[11:08:08] <archivist_herron> that is not done with a blowtorch, it is made in a forge
[11:08:19] <fenn> https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/hphotos-xtf1/t51.2885-15/e35/11918011_804093453041442_973364951_n.jpg tig welding oxide stuff
[11:08:33] <archivist_herron> hammer welding various steels together
[11:08:43] <XXCoder> impact welding
[11:09:04] <XXCoder> nuclear bomb welding (yes it exists)
[11:09:37] <fenn> it existed for 0.1 microseconds
[11:09:52] <XXCoder> uh
[11:10:14] <XXCoder> it was extensively used to weld 3 feet thick steel together
[11:10:36] <fenn> intentionally?
[11:10:40] <XXCoder> yeah
[11:10:47] <DaViruz> thats pretty thick
[11:10:52] <XXCoder> mainly by usa and russia
[11:10:56] <XXCoder> ypu can guess what for
[11:11:13] <fenn> actually i can't guess
[11:11:18] <DaViruz> im guessing nuke proof bunkers
[11:11:36] <XXCoder> among others yeah
[11:11:46] <DaViruz> oh the irony
[11:12:29] <MikkoP> :D
[11:13:15] <DaViruz> we need to nuke proof this by nuking it!
[11:13:23] <XXCoder> yeah
[11:13:49] <XXCoder> though if I recall right (read LONG time ago) it wasnt very large one
[11:13:50] <fenn> was that also on mythbusters?
[11:14:00] <XXCoder> just to heat large faces so its weldable hot
[11:14:11] <XXCoder> then they smoosh it together I guess?
[11:14:20] <XXCoder> I cant remember much detail as its been over a decade
[11:14:53] <XXCoder> fairly recent find is a way to weld wood with wood
[11:14:56] <fenn> "we've come to area 51 nuclear test range for our last episode..."
[11:15:01] <XXCoder> friction lol so strange
[11:15:17] <DaViruz> that looked like a scam to me
[11:15:17] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0k04hjdYuQ
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[11:15:39] <XXCoder> im sure its real, though nothing ever states how strong weld is
[11:15:42] <DaViruz> i didn't see them aåply even the slightest amount of force
[11:15:46] <MikkoP> Hey what are those linear shaft alternatives called where you don't use a circular pipe but that funny rectangular shape?
[11:15:48] <DaViruz> yeah
[11:16:14] <MikkoP> Like these http://www.tbimotion.com.tw/images/property_images/41e8fc18ef8b321b0f01695434ffb9715fe57863.jpeg
[11:16:38] <XXCoder> forgot what its called
[11:17:27] <fenn> linear motion rails
[11:18:02] <MikkoP> Ah yeah, or guide seems to also find good results
[11:18:06] <XXCoder> heh I hope wood weld is as strong as just block of wood
[11:18:19] <XXCoder> so its a way to cheaply make very large blocks of wood lol
[11:18:32] <XXCoder> that is if theres a way to vibrate such a large wood
[11:19:11] <fenn> or just use glue...
[11:19:44] <XXCoder> isnt glue a little bit weaker than "larger block of wood"?
[11:20:03] <ReadError> MikkoP they can be expensive
[11:20:19] <ReadError> recently spent about $300 on 3 of them + 6 blocks from china
[11:20:30] <ReadError> but domestic it woulda been much more
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[11:20:59] <MikkoP> Yea I know. They can handle huge weights and are very stiff.
[11:21:13] <malcom2073> MikkoP: Buy them used on ebay, you can get them for a steal if you look around enough
[11:21:17] <MikkoP> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HIWIN-HGW15CC-linear-guide-block-with-600mm-slide-rail-HGR15-set-cnc-z-axis-kit-/262162579137?hash=item3d0a1b7ec1:g:EF8AAOSwcdBWTtfI
[11:21:24] <XXCoder> ohhhh
[11:21:26] <XXCoder> fenn: http://ibois.epfl.ch/files/content/sites/ibois2/files/shared/recherche/posters/Poster_Hahn_2013.pdf
[11:21:30] <malcom2073> I got a set of 5ft THK's for less than $100 each
[11:21:32] <XXCoder> MUCH more details
[11:22:07] <DaViruz> malcom2073: new?
[11:22:10] <malcom2073> DaViruz: Yeah
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[11:22:23] <DaViruz> thats crazy cheap
[11:22:41] <malcom2073> Yeah it's not typical, I spent probably two months looking around on ebay before I came across them
[11:22:45] <MikkoP> malcom2073: That's actually pretty darn good. Did that include sliding blocks?
[11:22:46] <ReadError> malcom2073 wow thats a deal
[11:22:55] <ReadError> lots of 2nd hand ones on ebay for not *too* bad
[11:23:00] <malcom2073> MikkoP: Yep
[11:23:14] <MikkoP> Wow, that's great :D
[11:23:18] <ReadError> but its hard to find matched sets
[11:23:22] <malcom2073> Browse ebay for a couple months and keep an eye out
[11:23:23] <MikkoP> Still pricey but THK is a good brand
[11:23:42] <malcom2073> Well, they were 35mm, since they're for a router. Smaller rails are much cheaper heh
[11:25:44] <MikkoP> Manufacturing those costs nearly nothing and still they ask high prices.. but individual customers aren't the targeted focus group
[11:26:08] <MikkoP> Because corporations can't buy from eBay they are forced to pay premium
[11:26:10] <malcom2073> Gotta pay for the multi-million dollar facilities and stuff :P
[11:26:50] <MikkoP> Yes but still the profit margin is way too big
[11:26:54] <ReadError> MikkoP check aliexpress
[11:27:21] <malcom2073> I doubt their profit margin is much bigger than any other industrial supplier tbh. If it was, another company would come in and steal it out from under them
[11:28:00] <malcom2073> Hiwin is making a serious attempt at doing so to THK, they're getting pretty good, but the quality still isn't quite there yet
[11:29:03] <MikkoP> Well nobody really knows what happens there
[11:29:03] <archivist_herron> real quality costs
[11:29:24] <MikkoP> Yes it does but it can't be so hard that it forces the price so high
[11:29:40] <fenn> production of capital goods hasn't been as relentlessly optimized as production of consumer products have
[11:29:50] <MikkoP> Like with any luxury goods they are overpriced and the customer needs to pay premium. Quality and price don't go hand in hand
[11:29:55] <archivist_herron> try to make something very accurately to size
[11:30:05] <_methods> yeah
[11:30:09] <fenn> linear bearings aren't "luxury"
[11:30:16] <_methods> you need a grinder with a bed as long as the rails
[11:30:24] <_methods> hardly a cheap machine to fabricate them
[11:30:55] <MikkoP> Not luxury as in watches for instance but they are still considered above average, way above
[11:31:23] <MikkoP> _methods: but that's just because some other manufacturer in the chain of producing that has the same mindset: sell with big profits
[11:31:25] <archivist_herron> I can imagine hiwin pushing past stationary wheels to cut the cost
[11:31:42] <fenn> most products intended to be sold to businesses costs more than it should because the person doing the buying isn't spending their own money
[11:32:01] <MikkoP> I know that's how it works and precision takes time and money but I still think there's margin for price reduction
[11:32:14] <_methods> you need heat treat chambers the length of the rails also
[11:32:14] <MikkoP> fenn: that's true
[11:32:17] <malcom2073> MikkoP: Then get into the business, and make millions? :P
[11:32:20] <_methods> grinders, mills
[11:32:24] <_methods> measuring equipment
[11:32:30] <archivist_herron> and it has to last for an industrial lifetime not a consumer lifetime
[11:32:37] <_methods> serious investment in machinery
[11:32:45] <MikkoP> malcom2073: Yea :D Initial investments are high though as _methods is listing here
[11:33:23] <malcom2073> Continuous investsments,i you gotta always have the nicest machines to make the nicest stuff
[11:33:33] <fenn> it doesn't sound that expensive actually
[11:33:41] <_methods> that initial investment is going to limit the players willing to get into that process
[11:34:19] <MikkoP> As if the factories would be upgraded. They never invest if there isn't a problem with what they have atm
[11:35:35] <_methods> all of the equipment required to machine, inspect, heat treat those parts have extremely large footprints too
[11:35:42] <fenn> i'd rather sidestep the problem entirely with software somehow
[11:35:48] <_methods> so you need a lot of floor space in your factory on top of all that
[11:36:03] <fenn> air bearings on cast epoxy ways
[11:36:17] <fenn> no need for expensive up-front investment
[11:36:24] <SpeedEvil> fenn: I have wished in the past that free-space interferometers were easier.
[11:36:51] <MikkoP> _methods: Size is not a factor here, China is dirt cheap
[11:37:13] <malcom2073> *space* in china is not dirt cheap
[11:37:19] <SpeedEvil> fenn: If, for example, you could get XYZx'y'z' measurement 'live' at kilohertz rates, to a um or so, then you could calibrate out almost everything
[11:37:54] <XXCoder> http://www.brainlesstales.com/images/2015/Aug/u-rule.jpg useful. also funny
[11:38:51] <_methods> MikkoP: all i'm suggesting is that there may be more involved in the cost of manufacturing linear ways then you have thought about
[11:39:06] <XXCoder> its probably ground for precision
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[11:40:33] <_methods> but you are right there very well could be a fair amount of price fixing/gouging going on just because of the limited number of people competing in that market
[11:40:38] <ReadError> well point is, they have invested in producing them
[11:40:46] <MikkoP> Well I haven't looked into those very thoroughly, so maybe, but it's still true that there's a lot of loose money
[11:40:46] <ReadError> they can charge what the market is willing to pay
[11:40:58] <_methods> ^^
[11:41:09] <MikkoP> Yes! They charge what people pay
[11:41:21] <MikkoP> But because companies can't stop buying they don't reduce prices
[11:41:33] <XXCoder> they increase price till they hear groaning but moneys still coming
[11:41:34] <MikkoP> And that way they don't evolve
[11:41:39] <XXCoder> perfect balance of groan-pay
[11:41:55] <ReadError> MikkoP apparently its working though
[11:42:02] <ReadError> otherwise they couldnt stay in business
[11:42:06] <_methods> companies don't pay those prices
[11:42:09] <MikkoP> Yea.
[11:42:13] <_methods> only individuals pay those prices
[11:42:23] <MikkoP> Yea they get bulk discounts etc but stil
[11:42:29] <_methods> companies buy 1000's of them so they get huge breaks
[11:42:46] <_methods> people like us pay the difference
[11:42:55] <_methods> it's like plywood
[11:43:09] <_methods> it doesn't cost people that build 1000's of houses $40/sheet
[11:43:13] <_methods> they pay like $2/sheet
[11:43:23] <MikkoP> Yea
[11:43:32] <MikkoP> That's a bit sad :/
[11:43:38] <_methods> you pay for the xmas party lol
[11:43:50] <MikkoP> D
[11:43:51] <MikkoP> :D
[11:44:21] <_methods> yeah sux for us
[11:44:42] <MikkoP> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Kossel-Miniature-MGN12-12mm-linear-slide-3pcs-12mm-L-600mm-rail-3pcs-MGN12H-carriage-for-X/1895281204.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.1.F0zOBf&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1_79_78_77_80,searchweb201644_5,searchweb201560_8
[11:44:48] <MikkoP> What, that's cheap!?
[11:45:16] <_methods> i'm surprised the 12mm rails got really expensive because all the 3d printer clowns
[11:45:49] <XXCoder> 3 sets for 100 bucks basically
[11:45:54] <MikkoP> However they mostly use round rails
[11:46:03] <XXCoder> SBR yeah
[11:46:06] <_methods> they started moving to linear ways
[11:46:41] <_methods> on those "deltabot" 3d printers
[11:47:17] <_methods> for awhile there you could hardly even get 12mm rail
[11:47:24] <MikkoP> :D
[11:47:28] <MikkoP> What about rack and pinion?
[11:47:37] <_methods> sure
[11:47:41] <_methods> been used for years
[11:47:46] <MikkoP> That's too much for this size?
[11:47:50] <_methods> what kind of machine?
[11:48:06] <_methods> rack and pinion can usually be found for good prices
[11:48:06] <MikkoP> Maybe 40-50 cm of work area squared
[11:48:24] <_methods> milling? plasma?
[11:48:27] <MikkoP> Milling
[11:48:33] <MikkoP> Plasma would be nice but too expensive
[11:48:39] <ReadError> rack and pinion has worked great for me
[11:48:49] <XXCoder> just use drawer slides
[11:48:51] <XXCoder> heh
[11:49:06] <MikkoP> Yea, that's precise enough! :D
[11:49:57] <MikkoP> AliExpress has better prices but shipping costs are terrible
[11:49:59] <_methods> rack and pinion is farily common drive method in large plasmas and routers
[11:50:16] <MikkoP> Yea I read that online too but my machine is going to be pretty small
[11:51:32] <MikkoP> These must be really bad if they sell these at this price, right? http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CHTR-Linear-Guide-TRH15B1L1-600/1817472409.html?spm=2114.01020208.3.111.etAw7b&ws_ab_test=searchweb201556_1_79_78_77_80,searchweb201644_5,searchweb201560_8
[11:52:26] <_methods> i've never seen those before
[11:52:30] <_methods> so no idea
[11:53:10] <XXCoder> thats actually more expensive than last one
[11:53:19] <XXCoder> last ones double price but for set of 6 rails
[11:54:17] <_methods> if you're not in a rush the best thing to do is watch ebay and pick up some good rails
[11:55:03] <MikkoP> Yea they come and go but that could take forever
[11:55:25] <_methods> well most diy cnc projects take awhile to pull together
[11:55:39] <MikkoP> Yep. I've been waiting two years to start, so it's been a while
[11:55:49] <_methods> hehe
[11:56:56] <MikkoP> What's with those colors, why are they red and green? :D
[11:57:27] <_methods> that's the hiwin thing i guess
[11:57:36] <MattyMatt> those MGN12 much cheaper than they were before kossel, the problem is that only come in sets of 3, and with only one carriage per rail
[11:58:03] <MattyMatt> for milling you'd want 2 per rail
[11:58:03] <_methods> it does make it easy to spot a machine with chinese ways though lol
[11:58:18] <MikkoP> Yea two per rail is ideal
[11:58:39] <MikkoP> Also I was wondering if the axis where all the weight is on should have two rails
[11:59:14] <MattyMatt> all axis experience force greater than gravity, when machining
[11:59:43] <MattyMatt> proof, chips fly
[11:59:49] <MikkoP> Yea that's true
[12:00:26] <MikkoP> But like this one http://paul-flores.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/jpz_overclockdotnet_cncrouterbuild.jpg
[12:00:36] <MikkoP> Should I have two rails on top of each other on the long side?
[12:00:43] <MikkoP> Where all the weight is
[12:00:53] <MikkoP> Then again, my machine is quite small with 600 mm rails
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[12:01:56] <MattyMatt> I used 4 slides on my 500mm axis, but they were drawer slides :) for real slides 2 would be plenty
[12:02:32] <MikkoP> Okay
[12:02:56] <MikkoP> And these don't really wobble if they are good
[12:03:11] <MikkoP> I tried some yesterday and they felt great
[12:04:17] <MattyMatt> http://imgur.com/a/DNWJq
[12:05:15] <MattyMatt> 550mm drawer slides on a 1m total length axis. when the vertical ones are in, the horizontal ones are out
[12:05:43] <MikkoP> Nice :D Though you need a vacuum cleaner :D
[12:06:09] <MattyMatt> and there's a 100mm overlap in the middle where they are always supported, and that's where the X axis is
[12:07:13] <MikkoP> Ok
[12:07:45] <MattyMatt> but I wouldn't suggest anyone do that today, however poor you are
[12:08:16] <MattyMatt> unless it's really really poor and you have a free filing cabinet
[12:08:24] <MikkoP> :D
[12:09:50] -!- justanotheruser [justanotheruser!~Justan@unaffiliated/justanotheruser] has joined #linuxcnc
[12:10:41] <MikkoP> For those linear guide rails, how wide do you think I need? 12mm, 15, 20?
[12:10:58] <ReadError> http://www.dailygusta.com/Quads/i-2ZqL5qN/0/X3/CA_11021414002365-X3.jpg
[12:11:06] <ReadError> drawer slides worked pretty well on this
[12:11:29] <ReadError> but it doesnt really have a cutting load
[12:11:31] <MikkoP> What, that's huge :D
[12:11:39] <Jymmm> ReadError: but so would silly putty on foam =)
[12:12:32] <Jymmm> ReadError: you cutting foils?
[12:12:39] <ReadError> Jymmm yea
[12:12:46] <Jymmm> heh
[12:12:52] <ReadError> built it this past summer
[12:13:14] <Jymmm> ReadError: What are you using for heat control?
[12:13:27] <ReadError> ended up using a lab PSU
[12:13:40] <ReadError> 30V/5A
[12:13:41] <Jymmm> ReadError: So heat is NOT computer controlled?
[12:13:51] <ReadError> it can be, ive not set that up
[12:13:55] <Jymmm> k
[12:14:00] <ReadError> PSU has a serial interface for control
[12:14:20] <Jymmm> as
[12:14:21] <Jymmm> ah
[12:14:48] <Jymmm> ReadError: got any samples of your work?
[12:14:52] <ReadError> I got a variac but frankly AC scares the hell out of me
[12:15:12] <Jymmm> ReadError: AC "hums" the cutting wire fwiw
[12:15:29] <ReadError> http://www.dailygusta.com/Quads/i-8L3vzNx/0/X3/CA_01251515222896-X3.jpg
[12:15:33] <MattyMatt> MikkoP, once the linear rails are screwed (use all screwholes) to a frame, most of the structure is the frame. the rails them are essentially just the bearing surface. on those grounds the 12mm rails should do the job
[12:15:44] <ReadError> http://www.dailygusta.com/Quads/i-82X9K6H/0/X3/CA_03251512390053-X3.jpg
[12:16:06] <Jymmm> ReadError: Oh so the really lightweight stuff
[12:16:17] <MikkoP> That's what I thought
[12:16:20] <ReadError> yea those are 1.9# EPP
[12:16:37] <Jymmm> EPS or EPP ?
[12:16:44] <ReadError> EPP
[12:16:57] <ReadError> EPS too fragile for me ;)
[12:16:59] <Jymmm> Hmmm, I didn't realize that was PP
[12:17:38] <Jymmm> wait, are you sure it's polypropylene ?
[12:18:01] <ReadError> https://www.flyingfoam.com/content/2-12-x-24-x-36-13-epp-5-sheet-bundle
[12:18:17] <ReadError> yea, doesnt snap easily
[12:18:23] <ReadError> EPS is very brittle
[12:18:24] <MattyMatt> isn't PP hard to glue?
[12:18:32] <Jymmm> MattyMatt: yes
[12:18:37] <ReadError> i use gorillaglue
[12:18:45] <ReadError> the 3m super 90 stuff is great too
[12:19:02] <MattyMatt> I guess with any foam you at least have mechanical adhesion
[12:19:45] <ReadError> http://www.dailygusta.com/Quads/i-mTSjG3F/0/X3/CA_11131404424848-X3.jpg
[12:19:58] <ReadError> what I do w/ gorilla glue, take a razor and cut a hatch pattern
[12:20:05] <Jymmm> ReadError: Well, cool work =)
[12:20:13] <ReadError> then when it expands it grows into the foam sorta
[12:20:44] <MattyMatt> yeah you can see good penetration there
[12:21:03] <MattyMatt> unless that's just yellow light filtering
[12:22:11] <ReadError> its very strong using that process
[12:22:30] <ReadError> probably adds a bit of weight but not a big deal
[12:25:52] <MikkoP> AliExpress isn't the best place for me to purchase those rails though because importing them from outside EU forces me to pay taxes...
[12:26:21] <MattyMatt> there's a place in poland has pretty good value
[12:26:30] <MikkoP> ?
[12:26:50] <MattyMatt> Ta strona używa ciasteczek (cookies)
[12:27:01] <MattyMatt> http://www.akcesoria-cnc.pl/ :)
[12:27:28] <MikkoP> Nice language
[12:29:58] <MattyMatt> I can't find the rails, if they still do them
[12:30:59] <MattyMatt> they used to have SBR08 and things, that you can't even find on aliexpress
[12:31:34] <MikkoP> Hmm, if they don't have them it's no good :D
[12:33:08] <MattyMatt> there's a few places in UK, but their prices mostly make you wish you'd paid the import duty
[12:33:28] <MattyMatt> zapp?
[12:33:43] <MattyMatt> wrong channel. no bot
[12:33:58] <_methods> zlog
[12:33:58] <zlog> _methods: Log stored at http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/2015-12-02.html
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[12:34:15] <Tom_itx> damn, it stayed connected overnite!
[12:34:22] <_methods> hehe
[12:34:24] <MattyMatt> http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/mechanical-products/isel-linear-guide-rail-systems-384.html
[12:34:25] <MikkoP> 24 % VAT is not something you want to pay, ever.
[12:35:01] <MattyMatt> meh. it's 20% here already
[12:35:51] <MattyMatt> naturally firms that have already feathered their nests don't have to pay
[12:36:02] <MattyMatt> it's just another poverty tax
[12:36:08] <MikkoP> Well, your prices are so much lower it's much cheaper :D
[12:36:45] <gonzo_> many essencials are zero vat rated
[12:37:29] <MikkoP> Like food? We have 14 %
[12:37:50] <MattyMatt> shoes below size 6
[12:38:00] <gonzo_> they need to add the basic needs, line the need for linear bearings and stepper drives, to the zero VAT list
[12:38:49] <gonzo_> potatoe crisps are full VAT, but wheet based ate part vat
[12:39:25] <gonzo_> then you buy a miltipack assortment and they have to have a soacial partial vat rate. All good fun and keeps loads of people in work who are fit for little else
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[12:40:43] <TMA> about the only thing that is zero VAT is gold coins minted after 1800 that are at least of .900 purity and gold bars that are at least .995 pure
[12:40:46] <MattyMatt> those cooked chickens on a spit. if you buy them hot they are 20%, if you wait until they are cool, 0%
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[12:41:18] <MattyMatt> there was a legal argument about what was cool
[12:41:43] <TMA> gonzo_: so my question is: where is the blessed country where essentials are zero VAT?
[12:42:18] <MattyMatt> this is UK. no VAT on non-luxury food, or children's clothes
[12:42:51] <MikkoP> Maybe I could fit a size 6 shoe, that's only a few sizes too small :D
[12:44:13] <TMA> oh, well. I guess you can't get civil liberties and low taxes at the same time
[12:44:35] <MikkoP> lol
[12:45:19] <MattyMatt> that reminds me, the govt are plotting the mass murder of syrians today
[12:45:45] <MattyMatt> and we are free to say no, but pay for it anyway
[12:46:49] <MikkoP> Hey, what software do you use for milling? I mean, Arduinos with specific firmware or what?
[12:47:07] <_methods> arduino?
[12:47:08] <MattyMatt> look at the channel name
[12:47:27] <MikkoP> Yea I know but I was wondering if you are here just for the CNC talk
[12:48:04] <MattyMatt> naah, that would be rude, to come here and talk mach3 or grbl
[12:48:31] <_methods> grbl's are very hot in the gay community
[12:48:51] <_methods> i hear richard gere was a big fan of them
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[12:49:52] <MattyMatt> An attacker on your network could be trying to get you to visit a fake (and potentially harmful) version of joecartoon.com.
[12:50:01] <_methods> heheh
[12:50:37] <MikkoP> I'm not familiar with G-code but I think it's pretty simple. Should I be able to write a firmware to handle it? Or to rephrase: how complicated such software is? Are there a lot to consider and implement?
[12:51:33] <MattyMatt> have a look at sprinter etc
[12:51:41] <MattyMatt> or teacup
[12:52:03] <MattyMatt> ideally an old version, before SD and LCD support made it all a bit complex
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[12:54:00] <MattyMatt> it starts off pretty simple, but then feature creep sets in and you do canned tapping cycle gcodes etc and you end up with linuxcnc
[12:55:51] <MikkoP> Yea, they tend to get complicated and packed with features.
[12:56:16] <MikkoP> But if I just build my own CNC, is it simple to get the software working with it?
[13:03:51] <archivist_herron> relatively simple to get an old pc and load linuxcnc on it
[13:04:38] <MikkoP> Yea that's simple but how do you connect the two machines then? Computers don't generally have inputs and outputs for such uses
[13:05:04] <MikkoP> Or does it require some specific hardware on the CNC's end to work so I can't my own design hardware?
[13:05:20] <archivist_herron> parallel port->breakout board->stepper drivers
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[13:06:08] <MikkoP> What if I want to add rotary encoders to make sure the steppers do what they need to?
[13:07:11] <archivist_herron> then connect the encoders back to linuxcnc, may need more inputs (second parallel port)
[13:07:23] <archivist_herron> or better use a mesa card in the pc
[13:08:02] <MikkoP> Does the software understand that?
[13:08:02] <MikkoP> The encoders I mean
[13:08:22] <archivist_herron> it can I believe
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[13:09:59] <MikkoP> Hmm. Might be a good option too but then it would be just mechanically putting the pieces together
[13:10:05] <archivist_herron> google linuxcnc stepper encoder feedback
[13:13:43] <MikkoP> Hmm
[13:14:39] <MikkoP> What about microsteps. Do they work nicely? I have 200 steps/revolution motors and 16 microstep drivers. That's 3200 steps. Are they accurate?
[13:15:21] <archivist_herron> no
[13:16:01] <MikkoP> By the way, I hope I can drive the motors with full steps with such driver?
[13:16:06] <MikkoP> If they aren't accurae
[13:16:07] <_methods> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/2.6/pdf/LinuxCNC_Getting_Started.pdf
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[13:16:19] <_methods> that should cover a lot of the basics
[13:16:41] <_methods> and answer about 90% of your questions
[13:16:44] <archivist_herron> microstepping
[13:16:44] <the_wench> http://www.micromo.com/microstepping-myths-and-realities
[13:16:53] <archivist_herron> and that for the myths
[13:17:07] <_methods> my link was just for linuxcnc basics
[13:19:43] <MikkoP> So can I drive a motor with a driver that has microsteps without using them? Or lets say my driver has 16 microsteps, if I turn the motor 16 microsteps is it any different from one full steps in terms of torque etc?
[13:22:12] <archivist_herron> see that article the bot pointed at it shows a graph
[13:24:54] <MikkoP> Yea the torque is lower with one microstep, but do they add up? Is 16 microsteps as good as one whole step?
[13:27:58] <archivist_herron> it depends on which part of the cycle you are
[13:28:28] <MikkoP> What do you mean?
[13:28:43] <archivist_herron> so every 16 you are on a full step
[13:29:06] <MikkoP> Yea.
[13:30:11] <archivist_herron> I tend to use 1/2 step as a compromise
[13:30:58] <MikkoP> Can you control the microstepping amount?
[13:31:11] <archivist_herron> I can on my drivers
[13:31:26] <MikkoP> I bought http://www.ebay.com/itm/191634971704?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
[13:31:48] <archivist_herron> read the label
[13:33:47] <MikkoP> Here's a better image http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5p0AAOSwv-NWXXIr/s-l1600.jpg
[13:34:32] <MikkoP> So having switches 1 and 2 on and 3 off should have only one microstep, which means one full step?
[13:36:56] <archivist_herron> the trouble with full step is resonance
[13:37:17] <MikkoP> Why's that?
[13:37:50] <archivist_herron> and with direct drive the distance per step can be significant
[13:38:26] <greg_> can you set the drive to microstep and tell linuxcnc a machine unit is 16 steps?
[13:38:33] <archivist_herron> the magnetism if effectively a large spring
[13:39:04] <archivist_herron> if/is
[13:39:11] <greg_> of course it all depends on the rest fo the machine and what you are really looking for.
[13:39:40] <MikkoP> Why does setting it to half a step help then?
[13:40:26] <archivist_herron> a compromise, less resonance reasonable accuracy in step angle
[13:40:35] <MikkoP> I was thinking of going with 5 mm pitch ball screw. With 200 steps to make a revolution that's 0,025 mm per step
[13:40:58] <MikkoP> Okay
[13:42:05] <MikkoP> 1/40 of one millimeter. Is that even achievable? I think other parts start to restrict that first
[13:42:06] <archivist_herron> I discussed some of the accuracy issues on http://www.archivist.info/cnc/screw_error/
[13:42:55] <archivist_herron> well you dont care for accuracy with a wooden machine
[13:43:56] <archivist_herron> remember to work out your sources of error and if they matter
[13:44:01] <MikkoP> Didn't we discuss of switching to steel box sections and dampening the vibrations with crunched granite or sand?
[13:44:34] <archivist_herron> you discussed it, dunno what you are actually going to do yet :)
[13:45:01] <MikkoP> Hah true :D
[13:45:37] <archivist_herron> and that thing I never want to see, a draw slide on a real machine
[13:46:42] <MikkoP> Yea that's not even an option
[13:47:49] <MikkoP> On your page it says you have a resolution of 0,00625 mm. That's damn good if you ask me. Or?
[13:49:17] <MikkoP> You can't get drill bits nearly that small and you can't drill so that you have that much space between two holes or engravings because the material isn't going to sustain that. So isn't that perfect then?
[13:49:48] <MikkoP> Repeatability is the concern but looking at your graphs it's quite even
[13:51:27] <archivist_herron> the beginning of each graph concerns me
[13:52:18] <archivist_herron> and I should amend that page to include the dti spec http://www.archivist.info/cnc/screw_error/Mitutoyo_150E.png
[13:52:44] <greg_> Emco in their small teaching machines uses 5 phase steppers and half steps with 2:1 reduction to a 5mm screw. this gives 2.5micron resolution, (even though they advertised 1 micron)
[13:53:33] <archivist_herron> I love how some claim impossible accuracy, 1 micron is hard
[13:53:42] <greg_> people who use these lathes in production say they hold 5 micron on diameter, which is the minimum step increment.
[13:53:48] <archivist_herron> or even resolution
[13:53:50] <greg_> not accuracy resolution
[13:54:23] <MikkoP> Yea but that could be caused by a number things like you noted. The measurement tool might be acting out, it could be really anything. And the error is still relatively small.
[13:54:29] <archivist_herron> me playing with a pitch measuring machine http://www.archivist.info/cnc/screw_error/lamp_screw.php
[13:55:28] <MikkoP> Did you wire the indicator yourself or did it include connectors?
[13:55:52] <MikkoP> Would be nice to read it with a computer, not by looking at the screen
[13:56:18] <archivist_herron> wire? that is the power to it, I had to write the numbers down and type them in
[13:56:52] <MikkoP> It says data out?
[13:57:03] <archivist_herron> I dont have the cable
[13:57:17] <greg_> do you know anything about the VDI 3441 accuracy spec called out in machine manuals? All machines seemingly do 3-4 micron.
[13:57:27] <MikkoP> :D Must have been painful
[13:57:44] <archivist_herron> ebay cable sellers want 5 times what I paid for the indicator
[13:58:07] <MikkoP> Uhh :D
[13:58:33] <MikkoP> Yea I found one that costs 140 euros :D
[13:58:50] <MikkoP> That's even better, 750 euros :D
[13:59:16] <archivist_herron> I got the indicator cheap the seller had connected it backwards and blown the regulator, risked 5 pounds simple fix
[13:59:59] <archivist_herron> no way I can afford the proper price for those
[14:00:29] <archivist_herron> another sick one on ebay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331718184095
[14:00:32] <MikkoP> Proper price of the device you have? Or that 750 eur? :D
[14:00:59] <archivist_herron> £550 is the proper price iirc
[14:01:16] <MikkoP> Uhh, well then you can rule out any inaccuracies in the device :D
[14:01:31] <MikkoP> This is more like what I would buy: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Electronic-Depth-Gauge-Dial-Indicator-SAE-Metric-Fractions-2-batteries-/130876424956?hash=item1e78d7c2fc:g:ZgwAAOxy9eVRUJUT
[14:03:31] <archivist_herron> cheap enough
[14:04:30] <archivist_herron> so far most of the cheap digital verniers I have tested seem ok and within a thou
[14:05:14] <MikkoP> That's more than enough for building these kind of devices. Even if you could read it that accurately you can't do anything in that scale
[14:08:22] <archivist_herron> with the cheap verniers you need to check the jaws for burs and parallel and the gib adjustment to stop jaw rotation
[14:10:16] <archivist_herron> measuring instruments is a bit of a hobby for me :)
[14:11:17] <MikkoP> Hah, I can see :D
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[14:11:35] <MikkoP> So do you mean those cheap ones can't be used as is?
[14:12:35] <MikkoP> Not sure what you just said because according to a dictionary these are burs: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Villtakjas_2008.jpg
[14:12:35] <MikkoP> :D
[14:13:12] <FinboySlick> MikkoP: http://3.imimg.com/data3/LU/XS/MY-634048/totem-tungsten-carbide-rotary-burr-250x250.jpg
[14:13:13] <archivist_herron> sure they work, put them up to the light to check, see how the grip a bit of shim
[14:14:00] <MikkoP> Ok
[14:15:09] <archivist_herron> burr has too many uses
[14:15:34] <archivist_herron> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_%28edge%29
[14:15:50] <MikkoP> Ah, I'm so into these right now. The problem is that I must order them all at once because they take so long to ship. If I need something I can't just go to an electronics store and buy something because there aren't such shops in here
[14:16:02] <MikkoP> Ah, that
[14:16:35] <archivist_herron> and not this burr either https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burl
[14:17:21] <archivist_herron> verniers are cheap at the local Lidl/aldi
[14:18:16] <MikkoP> :D Yea those shops are strange because they have this kind of stuff every now and then :D
[14:20:29] <archivist_herron> local lidl had these for £10 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GEMRED-360-DEGREE-DIGITAL-ANGLE-RULE-RULER-FINDER-PROTRACTOR-/181408422405
[14:21:54] <MikkoP> :D I haven't seen those here
[14:22:22] <MikkoP> But sometimes they have powertools and other intruments
[14:22:42] <MikkoP> I don't know who buys a drill from Lidl but good for them if people buy those
[14:25:51] <zeeshan> ahh running simulations
[14:25:52] <zeeshan> lagggg
[14:26:04] <zeeshan> FinboySlick: did you find the problem?
[14:27:57] <MikkoP> Have you experienced with plasma cutters?
[14:30:49] <FinboySlick> Haven't had time to touch it yet. I should be looking into it tonight.
[14:32:04] <FinboySlick> zeeshan: I popped the hood before exiting the car this morning so that I can measure it without triggering all the gadgets that pop on when you open the door.
[14:34:44] <ssi> D:
[14:36:31] <FinboySlick> archivist_herron: You seen the Canadian caliper adjustment technique?
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[15:07:50] <enleth> MikkoP: sometimes the Lidl power tools are not complete crap
[15:08:07] <enleth> their bench grinder was OK
[15:08:58] <enleth> and the pneumatic stuff they sometimes have is totally chinese but 2x cheaper than the same chinese stuff elsewhere
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[15:10:13] <MikkoP> Yea it's surprising that sometimes they are really good
[15:10:49] <enleth> handheld belt sander was rather ok too
[15:11:11] <enleth> and the SDS hammer drill is supposedly good
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[15:11:53] <enleth> for home and hobby use of course, but most chinese crap is too lousy even for that
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[15:22:11] <SpeedEvil> enleth: yeah - I have a nice 8" grinder, and a very heavy, though quite servicable SDS drill
[15:22:22] <SpeedEvil> Also a truly excellent mains drill.
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[15:23:11] <MikkoP> GTG, see you
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[15:23:40] <SpeedEvil> oh yeah - the belt sander has seen a lot of use too
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[15:24:25] <enleth> oh, and last week they had a hydraulic car jack for ~$10 in my area
[15:24:54] <enleth> I came to buy some bread and left with a car jack
[15:28:14] <_methods> wtf is lidl?
[15:28:20] <_methods> like uk walmart?
[15:28:44] <enleth> something like that
[15:30:03] <_methods> looks like a cooking and sewing store from its website
[15:31:30] <enleth> well it's a grocery with limited time themed offers.
[15:31:58] <_methods> interesting
[15:32:05] <enleth> like, this week they have french or mexican specialty food
[15:32:22] <enleth> and next week they have gardening tools and supplies
[15:32:27] <_methods> haha wild
[15:32:39] <_methods> go from french and mexican food to weed eaters
[15:32:45] <_methods> and rakes
[15:32:51] <enleth> and about once a month that includes hand or power tools
[15:33:12] <_methods> kinda cool idea
[15:33:38] <enleth> of course most of the store is just a regular grocery, but every lidl has a dedicated shelving area for specials
[15:33:41] <greg_> in the US Aldi only have small electronics sometimes.
[15:34:12] <enleth> Aldi is a direct competitor of Lidl in Europe
[15:34:21] <enleth> same business model
[15:34:29] <_methods> ah we have an aldi here but i dont' think it's doing too well
[15:34:46] <_methods> i think the shopping cart thing pisses everyone off
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[16:13:09] <CaptHindsight> _methods: how to solve the shopping cart problem?
[16:13:51] <CaptHindsight> or trolley for our friends in the UK and Canada
[16:13:51] <_methods> ?
[16:13:57] <_methods> i got netsplit
[16:14:04] <_methods> dont' remember what i was even babbling about lol
[16:14:17] <_methods> zlog
[16:14:17] <zlog> _methods: Log stored at http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/2015-12-02.html
[16:14:38] <_methods> ahhh aldi
[16:14:49] <CaptHindsight> heh, carts at Aldi, had to look up the issue
[16:14:57] <_methods> yeah you gotta pay for them
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[16:15:20] <_methods> and i don't think they have bags there or something silly like that
[16:15:33] <CaptHindsight> no frills
[16:15:59] <_methods> yeah i can't imagine the shopping carts and bags are what drive up the price of groceries
[16:16:03] <_methods> but wtf do i know
[16:16:10] <CaptHindsight> carts get stolen often
[16:16:38] <_methods> i think they just carry off brand stuff or something too
[16:16:48] <CaptHindsight> bags are a few cents, but if one $100 cart gets stolen per day...
[16:16:52] <_methods> i dont' know i just hear people around bitching about the place i've never been there
[16:17:14] <_methods> i have a grocery store 1 mile from my house i just go there
[16:17:34] <CaptHindsight> it made me think of the cart problem in general
[16:17:35] <roycroft> plastic grocery bags are banned here, and stores are required to charge $0.05 for paper bags
[16:17:43] <roycroft> and the price of groceries still goes up
[16:17:49] <_methods> hehe
[16:18:02] <roycroft> so bags are not a factor
[16:18:17] <_methods> i kinda figured that lol
[16:18:46] <_methods> i like the costco method
[16:18:52] <_methods> where they just reuse all teh boxes
[16:19:16] <roycroft> yes, that works well
[16:19:25] <CaptHindsight> seems like a good job for people that measure other peoples lawns, negatively mark your coloring for going outside the lines, etc
[16:19:34] <roycroft> people bitch about our bag ban here
[16:19:36] <roycroft> i don't get it
[16:19:47] <roycroft> i've been using canvas grocery bags since 1980
[16:19:51] <roycroft> it's no big deal
[16:21:03] <CaptHindsight> people also complained when most stores went plastic vs paper
[16:21:12] <enleth> roycroft: it would probably be better to allow PLA bags in addition to plastic
[16:21:38] <CaptHindsight> they didn't get a paper bag to line their trash can
[16:21:45] <roycroft> it boils down to "i refuse to be responsible on my own and i resent having the government force me to act responsibly because of my own refusal to do so"
[16:21:47] <_methods> i think a lot of the stores are starting to encourage people to bring their own bags
[16:22:06] <enleth> I am getting some of both kinds when shopping and reuse the PLA bag as a trash can bag, and the paper bag as a recycleable trash can
[16:22:37] <_methods> i dont' really have a problem with that at all but i would like them to still have bags so when i forget i have something to put my groceries in
[16:22:45] <enleth> that way I don't have to buy trash bags and the PLA bags are biodegradable
[16:22:59] <roycroft> it's funny, most of the stores here used to incent people to bring reusable bags by paying them to do so, and even after our bag ban some of the stores still do that
[16:23:00] <SpeedEvil> Plus, you can 3d print PLA bags.
[16:23:29] <CaptHindsight> move to PLA food and the problem is solved
[16:23:52] <roycroft> there are a lot of laws that we should not need if people would just behave better
[16:23:59] <enleth> also, offering an incentive to switch works better than banning
[16:24:00] <roycroft> i lose money on bottles
[16:24:15] <roycroft> we have had a bottle deposit law since the 1970s (first state in the union to have one)
[16:24:25] <roycroft> it's a huge hassle to return bottles and get the deposit back
[16:24:35] <roycroft> a YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE hassle
[16:24:38] <CaptHindsight> behaving better is just for the little people
[16:24:46] <roycroft> i just recycle them and lose the deposit
[16:24:59] <roycroft> the whole purpose of the law is to ensure the bottles get recycled
[16:25:05] <roycroft> but oh well
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[16:25:29] <roycroft> i know that a lot of people would not recycle them if it were not for the deposit, so i just do what i do and figure i'm contributing a little for the greater good
[16:27:02] <FinboySlick> From a purely philosophical and moral standpoint, 'greater good' is actually a pretty nasty concept.
[16:27:09] <CaptHindsight> maybe turn all this into facebook points or similar
[16:28:03] <CaptHindsight> the better you behave the more likes and friends you get, return carts, reuse bags, return bottles...
[16:28:25] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: I think you're on to something there.
[16:29:04] <enleth> CaptHindsight: you joke, but gamification works in such cases
[16:29:19] <FinboySlick> The unwashed masses (and the lavender-scented trendy ones too) will go through incredible lengths for facebook status.
[16:29:22] <CaptHindsight> it's sad but true
[16:29:41] <enleth> many people get addicted to small doses of instant gratification very easilt
[16:29:47] <CaptHindsight> might as well take advantage of the social engineering
[16:30:39] <FinboySlick> On point though, the reason why it works so well is that the focus gets shifted away from the 'greater good' and instead put onto the individual reward of doing the right thing.
[16:30:53] <enleth> done properly, gamification is probably the most effective way to do such things
[16:31:03] <CaptHindsight> then again you also have to see it from the perspective of the masterminds behind it
[16:32:05] <enleth> FinboySlick: and the funny thing is, the reward can be absolutely worthless or even nonexistent as long as the act of getting it is presented in a pleasant manner that makes one feel good
[16:32:07] <CaptHindsight> does getting them to behave in this fashion benefit them?
[16:32:35] <FinboySlick> enleth: 'feel good' has an intrinsic value. It's not worthless.
[16:32:53] <FinboySlick> enleth: You can even measure it in dollar ammounts.
[16:33:54] <enleth> FinboySlick: but the act of getting a reward is becoming the reward evrn if, fuguratively, you are being rewarded with another funny looking image
[16:34:22] <enleth> so the formal reward is worthless, the value is elsewhere
[16:34:41] <enleth> *figuratively
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[16:35:13] <enleth> anyway, this should be used more often
[16:35:31] <CaptHindsight> that was the sound of 100 people joining the channel at once
[16:36:10] <FinboySlick> enleth: Well, 'value' is just the measured amount of resources one is willing to trade. The 'feel good' I get from giving to charity, for example.
[16:36:55] <enleth> FinboySlick: but if that were tracked somewhere and made somewhat competetive, more people would donate
[16:37:01] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: I think it's all the NSA bots who heard you might have uncovered the facebook social control plot.
[16:37:25] <enleth> or do other good things, just to feel good about themselves
[16:37:29] <FinboySlick> enleth: Sure.
[16:37:51] <enleth> but not for doing a good thing - rather, for being rewarded
[16:38:00] <FinboySlick> enleth: My point is that it has value for the person expending resources/energy on it. Else, they wouldn't spend it.
[16:38:31] <FinboySlick> Just like a collector will spend 15 bucks on a penny that is worth... well, about 2 cents ;)
[16:38:59] <enleth> yes, it's just a feel-good reward presented like a reward that has value by itself
[16:39:42] <CaptHindsight> the profits in bottle and cart return and bag reuse pails in comparison to $800 smartphones that break when you do anything other than look at them
[16:40:16] <enleth> you see an image of something and a message informing you that you are being rewarded with this badge or whatever shitty artist's representation of something that would be valuable if it were real
[16:40:31] <FinboySlick> enleth: It's as the foundation of economics (defined here as the science of human activity). What you spend is worth less to you than what you get in return.
[16:40:48] <FinboySlick> And this is matched by the person handing you the stuff and taking what you spent.
[16:40:51] <enleth> and that triggers the reward response in the brain
[16:41:02] <enleth> almost as if tge reward were real
[16:41:25] <FinboySlick> enleth: It *is* real.
[16:41:51] <enleth> not the thing you "get", just the feeling is.
[16:41:56] <CaptHindsight> are there any tie-ins yet between social website rewards and your purchasing habits?
[16:42:04] <FinboySlick> It doesn't have to be material. You could view it as a service. that re-arranges synapses in your brain to give you a little 'feel good' buzz.
[16:42:49] <enleth> but the mechanism it utilizes for this purpose is the primal need to be rewarded with physical things
[16:42:58] <CaptHindsight> it's like getting a gold star on the board in 1st grade
[16:43:16] <FinboySlick> enleth: the 'with physical things' is entirely superfluous.
[16:43:32] <FinboySlick> There is a primal need to be rewarded.
[16:44:33] <FinboySlick> Your status in a pack has no physical shape or quantification, but you can bet that animals work pretty darn hard at it.
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[16:45:11] <enleth> OK, social rank is a thing too
[16:45:25] <FinboySlick> It's all a resource.
[16:45:28] <enleth> holy shit not again
[16:45:40] <CaptHindsight> bumpy day
[16:46:07] <enleth> there goes splitnode
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[16:47:32] <CaptHindsight> I'm going to correlate it to the snow we are going to get today, snow means net splits
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[16:49:52] <enleth> on a completely unrelated note, I'm probably buying a chinese 11x30 lathe
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[16:50:24] <enleth> I wonder if I'm about to regret this the moment I start using it
[16:50:27] <malcom2073> I bought a snow blower, so my area will be snow free this year, woohoo
[16:50:27] <Jymmm> Get a Thai one, they taste better.
[16:50:40] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Only if you ask for it "Thai hot"
[16:50:43] <CaptHindsight> that is worth at least 10 FB up faces
[16:50:49] <FinboySlick> enleth: I did with my mill.
[16:50:51] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Yeah, but how's going to be the poor bastard behind it?
[16:51:08] <FinboySlick> enleth: No amount of fancy features they added to it make up for the craftmanship.
[16:51:10] <archivist> FinboySlick, fixed it yet?
[16:51:10] <Jymmm> who's*
[16:51:11] <malcom2073> Jymmm: I understand your words, but not the order you put them in
[16:51:25] <enleth> FinboySlick: arguably a lathe is harder to fuck up than a mill
[16:51:25] <FinboySlick> archivist: I was bracing for that exact question ;)
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[16:51:34] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Who is running the snow blower?
[16:51:44] <malcom2073> Oh, nobody, don't need to, since there's gonna be no snow :)
[16:51:45] <archivist> FinboySlick, :)
[16:51:54] <FinboySlick> archivist: Still waiting to build the house first. Which is turning into an adventure of its own.
[16:52:10] <Jymmm> malcom2073: So you now have a useless one?
[16:52:23] <malcom2073> Yep. I bought it so we wouldn't get another 3ft snowfall like last year when I didn't have one
[16:52:56] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Gotcha, I have waterless water pump for sale... cheap
[16:53:09] <malcom2073> Nah I'm good, don't need my water to go away
[16:53:36] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Comes with free bbq
[16:53:41] <malcom2073> Newp
[16:53:48] <malcom2073> You're not tricking me
[16:54:03] <Jymmm> malcom2073: and gold
[16:55:32] <Jymmm> malcom2073: and midgets (they make great helpers)
[16:55:37] <malcom2073> Hah
[16:55:42] <malcom2073> Trickery
[16:55:53] <Jymmm> and beer
[16:56:01] <Jymmm> and a pizza tree
[16:56:14] <malcom2073> Ok now you're just making shit up
[16:56:34] <Jymmm> malcom2073: like a waterless water pump isn't made up???
[16:56:50] <malcom2073> A waterless water pump is just a water pump whree there is no water I assumed
[16:57:02] <Jymmm> Uh, nooooo
[16:57:33] <Jymmm> It's like waterless hand cleaner
[16:57:49] <malcom2073> That stuff sucks
[16:57:57] <Jymmm> hardly
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[17:00:14] <CaptHindsight> waterless irradiating hand cleanser
[17:01:35] <CaptHindsight> sounds like a product from the 20's
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[17:06:34] <t12> i found one of those china 2.2kw water cooled spindles at the fleamarket
[17:06:37] <t12> i wonder if its toast
[17:06:42] <t12> maybe i should just take it apart and see how its built
[17:07:12] <archivist> did it come with its vfd
[17:07:15] <t12> nah
[17:07:18] <CaptHindsight> in order of worst to best: nothing, China lathe, worn Hardinge or similar...
[17:07:34] <t12> but it was $10
[17:07:59] <archivist> worth it to play with and explore
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[17:08:04] <t12> thats what i figured
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[17:08:09] <t12> i guess i can wire it up to whatever and spin it
[17:08:13] <t12> it was used with wood, lots of wood dust
[17:08:15] <CaptHindsight> worst case it's a fixture to make spindle holders
[17:08:33] <CaptHindsight> or testing for fit
[17:08:59] <t12> it might be worth $10 in metal weight heh
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[17:10:22] <CaptHindsight> flea markets around here just have clothing, stolen tools and other items that didn't sell at the garage sale
[17:10:51] <archivist> just fleas here
[17:11:27] <t12> can you buy a flea circus?
[17:11:41] <archivist> I have seen a fleas circus
[17:12:03] <ssi> t12: you could run it with any brushless servo drive probably
[17:12:06] <archivist> poor things super glued to bits of wire
[17:12:27] <CaptHindsight> I don't think that they care
[17:12:40] <ssi> I've never thought of fleas as "poor things"
[17:12:43] <ssi> they are my mortal enemy
[17:13:08] <t12> yeah they're def the enemy
[17:13:18] <t12> ssi: yeah i assume
[17:13:52] <t12> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/spindles-vfd/129454-water-cooled-chinese-spindle-disassembly.html
[17:13:58] <t12> i guess this is it torn down
[17:16:19] <CaptHindsight> how long does the skate bearing inside last?
[17:16:34] <ssi> thankfully you can buy some pretty high quality skate bearings
[17:16:47] <t12> who cares if its swappable
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[17:16:52] <Erant> Is Sherline basically Chinese crap?
[17:17:08] <ssi> Erant: more like modestly polished chinese crap
[17:17:32] <CaptHindsight> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=135493&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1389525524
[17:17:58] <archivist> Erant, I have seen impossible accuracy claims
[17:18:05] <CaptHindsight> trying to make out the NSK number without additional image processing
[17:18:10] <Erant> ssi: I sorta figured. I'm just browsing craigslist for a lathe, found a Sherline 4500A. It looks flimsy as all hell. (And it's too expensive)
[17:19:10] <Erant> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/tls/5340605847.html
[17:19:19] <t12> i need to built up a pile of junk vfd's
[17:19:20] <CaptHindsight> it's a slow time of year for machines
[17:19:38] <ssi> CaptHindsight: I'm hopefully getting a new machine this weekend! :D
[17:19:44] <Erant> Ah. Does it get going again around summer, when people clear out their garages?
[17:19:46] <CaptHindsight> but you can find deals when they do pop up
[17:19:58] <t12> nsk 6002V i think
[17:20:00] <Erant> I'm in no immediate rush to buy a machine, so I'm just monitoring.
[17:20:09] <CaptHindsight> ssi: what are you getting?
[17:20:09] <Erant> And learning
[17:20:36] <Erant> I've never operated a lathe before. I've done a bunch of milling before I got my mill, but for some reason I've never operated a lathe.
[17:21:01] <ssi> CaptHindsight: a couple years ago I did a linuxcnc retrofit on an atrump 10x52 knee mill that originally had a centroid control
[17:21:04] <ssi> getting that one
[17:21:11] <ssi> it's already retrofit and well done
[17:21:14] <ssi> and I know the guy that did it :D
[17:21:49] <CaptHindsight> oh yeah, I think I heard you mention it the other day
[17:21:51] <malcom2073> Hey ssi, you interested in those long rails? I'm selling the X/Y rails, 3.1m and 1.5m
[17:22:18] <ssi> how much are you asking for them?
[17:22:48] <malcom2073> $1500 + shipping, haven't the foggiest if they'll even ship though
[17:22:57] <ssi> shipping is gonna be a bear
[17:23:03] <ssi> I'm not in a position to spend that right now sadly
[17:23:04] <malcom2073> They were delivered non-freight, so I dunno
[17:23:27] <malcom2073> The long is two rails, 2.6 and 0.9
[17:23:40] <malcom2073> Alright, figured I'd check before I put the on on fleabay and asked around locally
[17:24:43] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: profile rails, round, supported??
[17:25:42] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: The long ones are 30mm german branded square rails, the 1.5M ones are 35mm THK. The 0.9 and 1.5 rails are brand new still wrapped in plastic, the 2.6m rails are used.
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[17:26:51] <Jymmm> plastic rails! It's a rip off CaptHindsight
[17:27:19] <malcom2073> Nah I have that backwards. the 2.6+0.9 are THK 30mm, the 1.5M are Schneeberger 25mm
[17:27:27] <malcom2073> s/25m/35mm
[17:27:52] <malcom2073> Jymmm: But it's heat treated plastic!
[17:27:57] <malcom2073> :P
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[17:31:21] <CaptHindsight> german plastic so it gotta be good
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[17:32:04] <malcom2073> You know it
[17:32:27] <CaptHindsight> as kids we used to hear that all the time, parents would buy the German version of anything since you know it was made better
[17:32:43] <malcom2073> When you were a kid, it might've been true
[17:35:58] <CaptHindsight> now it's Facebook
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[17:36:13] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Ah, well then that's okey... CaptHindsight [ BUY NOW ]
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[17:38:31] <Magnifikus> how do i compile linuxcnc for a preempt rt kernel? configure tells me i have to add a path
[17:38:41] <Magnifikus> checking for RT dir... configure: error: RT not found. Specify:
[17:39:00] <Magnifikus> or is it uspace?
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[17:43:00] <pcw_home> uspace
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[17:44:12] <pcw_home> ./configure --with-realtime=uspace
[17:44:20] <Magnifikus> ty
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[17:48:50] <FAalbers> Hello. Is there any good online reference for material/bit routing values ? Cut and Plunge feedrates ?
[17:50:31] <FAalbers> Any CamBam users here ?
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[17:59:10] <FinboySlick> archivist: You think a solid granite lathe would work (bed + headstock) or would it end up cracking?
[18:02:17] <archivist> FinboySlick, should work as long as you dont put it in tension too much
[18:06:41] <DaViruz> maybe some long holes and precompressing it
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[18:07:46] <archivist> isnt that insanely accurate lathe on youtube made like that
[18:08:05] <archivist> homebrew at that
[18:08:55] <archivist> that one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFrVdoOhu1Q
[18:09:00] <DaViruz> googling insanely accurate lathe gave me this: https://str.llnl.gov/str/April01/Klingmann.html
[18:09:11] <DaViruz> actually, the first suggestions was "insanely accurate mind reader"
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[18:10:49] <archivist> he has in on a wooden bench!
[18:10:54] <archivist> in it
[18:11:31] <DaViruz> that is insane
[18:11:35] <DaViruz> the lathe that is
[18:13:12] <DaViruz> that pin chuck was pretty interesting
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[18:14:41] <DaViruz> that guy is pretty interesting
[18:17:49] <archivist> real lathe porn :)
[18:20:01] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/SPl2cgm0Q-Y?t=2m35s check out this grinder
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[18:23:00] <FinboySlick> Just so I don't get my cultures all messed up. The guy with the home made granite lathe has a Jewish accent, right?
[18:23:41] <archivist> no idea, not English accent
[18:24:22] <CaptHindsight> compare to Larry Sanders
[18:24:48] <FinboySlick> It almost sounds french.
[18:25:09] <DaViruz> jewish accent? i wasn't aware there was one
[18:25:29] <CaptHindsight> maybe he means Israeli
[18:25:37] <_methods> http://www.hebrewsurnames.com/GELBART
[18:26:06] <CaptHindsight> sorry Larry David
[18:26:11] <_methods> hehe
[18:26:33] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I might have meant Israeli. Like I said, I'm a culture oaf here in that regard.
[18:27:54] <DaViruz> he has a lot of interesting videos it seems
[18:28:02] <DaViruz> and here i was thinking i'd go to bed early
[18:28:54] <archivist> yoooooooutooooob machine porn causes a tot of time loss
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[18:37:08] <CaptHindsight> I need that guys super precision grinder to make air bearings like these http://www.bearing-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/oav-sl.jpg http://cfnewsads.thomasnet.com/images/medium/545/545119.jpg
[18:38:22] <archivist> he is partly cheating by buying in his slabs of granite
[18:38:34] <FinboySlick> archivist: Well, now that I'm all super-accurate lathe porned up... What would be an example of 'tension'.
[18:39:31] <CaptHindsight> good deal with linear servo http://www.ebay.com/itm/Danaher-S20660-VTS-Air-Bearing-Linear-Motor-Gantry-Kollmorgen-Linear-Motor-/171388732474
[18:40:02] <archivist> a heavy drilling job puts tension in the bed
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[18:42:03] <FinboySlick> archivist: So something that would try to push the spindle off the bed.
[18:43:11] <archivist> the top surface of the bed is being pulled apart when the tailstock is pushing into the spindle
[18:43:45] <archivist> but his bed is massife and can take a certain amount of force
[18:43:51] <archivist> massive
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[18:44:23] <FinboySlick> Well, I was thinking of a single, solid block that incorporates both the spindle and the bed.
[18:44:41] <archivist> harder to make
[18:45:33] <archivist> the mention of making it upside down on a surface plate
[18:46:44] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: I'm making one with separate head and tailstocks
[18:47:06] <archivist> he does say at the beginning for light work
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[18:48:39] <maxcnc> Good Evening from Germany
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[18:49:01] <maxcnc> today i got a bug in one mashine
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[18:49:07] <ssi> and being one piece doesn't fix it
[18:49:21] <ssi> the granite of the bed itself is still in tension, regardless of whether the head is bolted or one piece
[18:49:23] <maxcnc> a real one
[18:49:32] <ssi> if anything one piece is worse because there's a stress concentration at the fillet
[18:49:37] <maxcnc> about 100 spiders are under the motherboard
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[18:50:20] <CaptHindsight> bug spray when not powered
[18:50:25] <FinboySlick> maxcnc: Sheesh.
[18:50:27] <maxcnc> dry air got them all out i hope
[18:50:47] <Jymmm> WD-40
[18:52:02] <maxcnc> Jymmm: computers dont like wd-40
[18:52:17] <Jymmm> maxcnc: Sure they do, makes em go faster.
[18:52:19] <CaptHindsight> http://idtnet.co.uk/newsletter/may13/newsletter.html Rotational axis eccentricity <50nm & wobble <10nm for the air bearing
[18:52:52] <FinboySlick> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/compression-tension-strength-d_1352.html OK, I get what you mean with tension now.
[18:53:32] <maxcnc> Gn8 just wanted to tell
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[18:53:53] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: this will set you back about $40k new http://alioindustries.com/product-systems/rotary-motion-systems/
[18:58:24] <FAalbers> Anyone using CamBam/CutViewer combo ?
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[19:04:41] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Still have the link for that horrible ghetto mdf CNC you posted last week?
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[19:10:31] <FloppyDisk> I had looked into trying to buy parts for that air bearing lathe and the spindle seemed to be 'difficult.' He mentioned in the youtube video semi-conductor equipment, but I had a hard time finding that on ebay. I did find the same Kollmorgen air bearing linear stage though, nice find.
[19:11:33] <FloppyDisk> Also, he must have painted the system or something because it looked brand new and on top of that he mentioned 'someone'else did the software and put in the joystick ocntrol. It didn't look like LinuxCNC software, unless it was 'under the hood.' but either way, he paid at least $10k for the software, imo...
[19:12:59] <FloppyDisk> So, it seemed, to me, a harder project than protrayed on the video, not that it's not doable and I thought Linuxcnc would be perfect for it... And, maybe it seemed harder to me because trying to hit the price points was challenging and then mounting it all up, etc... Did you see the Okuma behind the air bearing lathe... He's equipmentd.
[19:13:30] <FloppyDisk> Sorry - he's equipped (w/ tons of great equipment).
[19:20:31] <FinboySlick> archivist: Think it might be a solution to drill through the length of the bed and use steel rods to keep it in constant compression?
[19:22:19] <CaptHindsight> many of the rotary air bearing stages for semiconductors won't operated on their sides
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[19:23:31] <CaptHindsight> they are designed for the axis to be parallel to gravity
[19:23:54] <CaptHindsight> the platters will just fall off if you tip them 90 deg
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[19:25:38] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Block-Head-Model-4B-Universal-Air-Bearing-Spindle-Professional-Instruments-/311300959673 this one might work sideways
[19:27:04] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/BLOCK-HEAD-Universal-Air-Bearing-Spindle-Model-No-4R-Professional-Instruments/311473673596 but you sacrifice having any material fed through the chuck
[19:27:31] <CaptHindsight> but thats probably ok for most intended operations for really high precision
[19:30:47] <CaptHindsight> I wish ebay would bump a-holes off for posting crap in the wrong sections
[19:31:17] <CaptHindsight> Chinese non-air bearing spindles in the air bearing spindle results
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[19:34:11] <FinboySlick> they're air-cooled. It got ebay all confused.
[19:35:17] <CaptHindsight> and it doesn't help in the poster in China didn't list it as "Air Bearing Spindle"
[19:36:13] <CaptHindsight> ooops and it doesn't help if the poster lists it as "Air Bearing Spindle" sorry I was thinking in Chinese for a second
[19:39:03] <FinboySlick> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Danaher-S20660-VTS-Air-Bearing-Linear-Motor-Gantry-Kollmorgen-Linear-Motor/171388732474?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20131003132420%26meid%3Db05cd09be49847549d4fbe28b342b020%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D331419673671 I guess this would make a nice surface grinder.
[19:42:59] <Jaimie> whats the gcode to disable the heat check for extruders?
[19:44:21] <Magnifikus> and another stupid question, howto get "comp" when i compile from source?
[19:44:35] <Magnifikus> got compgen but not comp
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[19:52:26] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: looking at it closer it won't
[19:53:02] <CaptHindsight> it needs to be flipped over or have the linear servo mounted on the outside
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[19:54:45] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: I was thinking in terms of moving the spindle and keeping the work steady.
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[20:00:18] <anomynous> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc_7Y8Olzlw
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[20:10:13] <CaptHindsight> http://www.aerotech.com/product-catalog/stages/rotary-stages/abrt.aspx# I often find these on ebay but they only work in the position shown
[20:11:47] <andypugh> It does prove that my decision to use a mixed-connector D-sub for _my_ rotary table wasn’t eccentric :-)
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[20:13:21] <CaptHindsight> I see it all the time
[20:13:40] <ssi> I wouldn't mind them, I just don't know where to get the housings or the power pins
[20:13:47] <ssi> or what sort of crimp tools are appropriate for the power pins
[20:14:26] <CaptHindsight> the trick is to get the cables included for less than the $1300 factory price
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[20:20:08] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8_Y7keV6qU Goniometric Cradles
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[20:24:21] <andypugh> ssi: the power pins on mine are (huge) solder buckets. More buckets of solder, really.
[20:25:04] <ssi> gotcha
[20:25:27] <ssi> are the signal pins also solder cup, or are they crimp and insert?
[20:28:19] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/V7M2RIv4SrI?t=32s 5x stiffer and 5x lower thermal expansion than aluminum
[20:30:24] <Magnifikus> ah its halcompile now :)
[20:35:24] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: up to 3" ID http://www.oavco.com/rollerairbearing.html
[20:35:37] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whKUpQ2WmLA
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[20:38:01] <lair82> Hello Guys, I have moved leaps and bounds today on my rotary table, but have another question, in regards to the "axis.3.unlock" out pin, this only comes on during homing, and a G0 rapid command, so the "LOCKING_INDEXER" is exactly what it is, just for indexing. So what would be the best way to control the lock/unlock on my rotary, when we are going to be using this for indexing and contouring?
[20:39:06] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Load capacity isn't that high though.
[20:39:35] <cradek> if you can't just leave it unlocked, probably you'll have to use two custom M codes for lock and unlock
[20:40:45] <cradek> if it's usable for contouring, it must track commanded position well (no lash, not loose), in which case you may not need the lock?
[20:40:49] <rob_h> just use two Mcodes for locking unlock.. then u can lock it for heavy milling, unlock for contouring use
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[20:41:01] <lair82> I was looking at using a compare function against the "joint.3.position.command", if(pos.command=0) set true to lock,
[20:41:18] <skunkworks> it probably would not be fast enough....
[20:41:21] <rob_h> its what our 5axis matsuura has ... and is interlocked so does not rotate when locked...
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[20:41:48] <cradek> comparing position to zero makes no sense to me
[20:41:56] <cradek> what's your actual goal here?
[20:42:00] <FinboySlick> Would one have to factor in the time it takes to lock and unlock? Otherwise, it might cause wear when the axis tries to move as it isn't entirely unlocked yet.
[20:42:10] <skunkworks> (the locking mechanism)
[20:42:45] <rob_h> do you have switch's for the lock? our indexer does
[20:43:14] <lair82> my bad, my bad, I meant the axis.3.joint.vel.cmd pin
[20:43:24] <ssi> still too slow
[20:43:30] <rob_h> so the Mcode does not finish untill it sees unlock switch complete .. then can move on... but if you command a move and its locked.. then its interfaced so does not rotate or even try to
[20:43:33] <ssi> you're far better off locking/unlocking it modally
[20:44:00] <lair82> Yes it does have a clamped LS and unclamped LS
[20:45:03] <lair82> Ok, so they need to use the M-code for any aspect, feed commands, rapids, and manually jogging.
[20:46:21] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: do you often see high loads when machining to +/- 0.02um?
[20:46:22] <rob_h> our machiens have buttoms on the front panel also
[20:46:23] <rob_h> but yes
[20:46:45] <lair82> Ok, m-codes make more sense, I was just trying to get it to unlock and lock automatically, with the operator not needing to worry about it
[20:47:01] <rob_h> depends how good your indexer is, your reductions etc if you want tolock it or not, down to user and user case
[20:47:30] <rob_h> i dont think you will get it to be Automatic , not saying you cant but why bother..
[20:47:53] <cradek> on mine, once the worm is adjusted so there's no lash, it doesn't need to lock
[20:48:21] <lair82> Just trying to eliminate the human aspect of unlocking it and locking it.
[20:48:24] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Well, no.
[20:49:34] <lair82> This is adjustable to remove the lash, but the manual also recommends locking it down during non-rotating machining, to save the wear and tear on the bronze worm gear
[20:50:48] <rob_h> if you working on center of rotate close in, not going to see much force, move out so the edge of the indexer diamiter and you will probly start to see some deflection depends on the maching opp
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[20:52:40] <andypugh> ssi: I think you can get a few types, but on mine the small pins were perrmanenlty installed solder buckets, and the large holes were snap-in solder buckets, but could have been snap=-in anything.
[20:52:53] <lair82> One other question, in regards to Gscreen, would I need to post a bug report, or just hit Chris M on the forum, I found that the DTG column on Gscreen always shows the actual position, not the DTG?
[20:53:12] <lair82> In regards to the A axis
[20:54:31] <rob_h> i dont use gscreen sorry so would not know
[20:55:01] <andypugh> lair82: You could lock when axis.3.joint-vel-cmd is zero.
[20:55:39] <lair82> I realize that, not many people do, but I didn't know if an official bug report was necessary.
[20:56:04] <ssi> andypugh: you don't think it'd fault because the time it takes to unlock is non-zero?
[20:56:25] <ssi> and it'd try to lock if the direction reversed as it passed through zero vel
[20:56:27] <andypugh> Probably not, due to accelleration limits.
[20:56:35] <lair82> The table at max velocity is only 5.5 rpm
[20:56:52] <andypugh> I imagine vel-cmd leads actual vel by a fraction.
[20:57:21] <ssi> as soon as the vel-cmd is non-zero, the servo will be applying torque to the axis, and the lock will be binding as it's trying to release
[20:57:30] <ssi> in practice it may work, but it may not
[20:57:44] <rob_h> only if your brake sticks or does not happen what happens then
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[20:58:01] <rob_h> prob get follwoing error if PID is tight
[20:58:14] <andypugh> rob_h: Worst-case is a following-error. I think it is a low risk experiment.
[20:58:34] <andypugh> I have trued to move my A-axis with the brake on, and it just f-errors.
[21:00:17] <lair82> I'm going to give it a try, if it works, it works, if not, back to m-codes.
[21:00:39] <rob_h> only 10mins wasted if not work not take long to hal it
[21:00:49] <lair82> Would it be best to do the compare purely in HAL?
[21:01:18] <rob_h> easy and quick in hal for sure
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[21:01:52] <lair82> which component?
[21:01:55] <lair82> near?
[21:02:12] <andypugh> Yes, near.
[21:02:35] <andypugh> Near 0 with a very small tolerance.
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[21:10:05] <lair82> So, " net axis.3.joint-vel-cmd near.0.in1 " "setp near.0.in2 0" " setp near.0.difference 0.0001 " look like it should work?
[21:13:06] <cradek> I just wouldn't lock a motor that's under pid control
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[21:18:12] <lair82> But it would be the same thing if I was just using it as a locking indexer
[21:18:33] <cradek> that's true
[21:18:33] <ssi> well the point is that if you want it locked, you need to pair the locking with disabling pid control
[21:18:41] <ssi> which is trivially easy using M-codes
[21:18:43] <cradek> yes you probably want to disable pid
[21:18:53] <ssi> but trying to lock and unlock at zero velocity is fraught with peril I think
[21:19:35] <cradek> disabling pid clears the integrator
[21:20:27] <lair82> Sounds easy enough, does the syntax I posted look good for the near command?
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[21:23:17] <andypugh> ssi: Less peril than locking and unlocking _not_ at zero velocity.
[21:23:44] <ssi> well that's the concern.... if you reverse, you'll pass through zero velocity, and the lock is going to want to engage and disengage at the zero point
[21:23:48] <ssi> which it can't do instantly
[21:24:01] <ssi> so I imagine f-error faults on reversal
[21:24:04] <ssi> as well as on initial movement
[21:25:26] <_methods> have a dwell at zero before locking pin fires
[21:26:44] <cradek> it's unlocking in time that's harder
[21:27:11] <lair82> I had an on-delay timer when I was controlling it in ladder earlier, I could do the same thing so when it passes zero,
[21:28:32] <lair82> So maybe I put in a feature request for a "Locking_Contour_Table" to handle what I want??
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[21:30:06] <lair82> So it locks and unlocks, when required whether it be a jog, rapid or feed.
[21:31:06] <andypugh> Maybe a delay on application bit not release is in order.
[21:31:23] <CaptHindsight> is the part in contact with a cutting tool or any force during locking or unlocking?
[21:32:16] <lair82> No, it should not be in contact
[21:32:40] <cradek> it seems to me that pid+motor either holds the position of the table or it doesn't; if it does, you don't need locking to hold still; if it doesn't, you need locking but can't contour anyway
[21:33:48] <lair82> If it could do the PID, ferror calculations _dependent on the clamped/unclamped_ state, it would work.
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[21:34:22] <CaptHindsight> sure, but why do you need to do that?
[21:34:45] <CaptHindsight> I wondering what the bigger picture here is
[21:35:51] <lair82> It is just to eliminate wear and tear on the gearing, 30 HP spindle drive, and 3KW servo's on all three axis's, when the table is not rotating, clamped, these guys are no holds barred, wide open heavy cuts
[21:36:28] <SpeedEvil> ...
[21:36:32] <SpeedEvil> Fun
[21:37:22] <CaptHindsight> if you stop the servo, will the parts move before a brake may be engaged?
[21:37:38] <lair82> It is fun, massive metal removal rates, but I would rather not prematurtely wear out the bronze worm gear because I can't clamp the table in position, when there is no need for rotation.
[21:38:12] <CaptHindsight> also is it a disk brake with some give or a locking pin and hole?
[21:38:27] <lair82> disc brake of sorts
[21:43:27] <CaptHindsight> time till PID error vs time to engage the brake
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[21:46:39] <CaptHindsight> if his parts are balanced and won't move if he kills the servo whats the problem to then engage a brake?
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[21:54:18] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:01:28] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/images/shop/Siding12.jpg
[22:02:13] <lair82> Works like a charm, using the near and and2 components, engages the brake and kills the PID, no ferrors.
[22:03:33] <rob_h> now you can put the exsample in the manual for others ;)
[22:04:28] <CaptHindsight> apparently none :)
[22:04:46] <lair82> Time to go, it's beer thirty here, and I will post my stuff, I always try to pay it forward when I can around here, I definitely get enough help from everyone else.
[22:05:12] <JT-Shop> lair82: let me know when you post it
[22:05:26] <lair82> Will go,
[22:05:29] <lair82> gotta go
[22:05:48] <rob_h> getting ready for the winter JT? new siding
[22:06:25] <JT-Shop> yea, what great timing putting siding up in December lol
[22:06:37] <JT-Shop> oh well getting it done anyway
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[22:07:10] <rob_h> i think we all seem todo them jobs around now
[22:08:07] <JT-Shop> yea, I hope to finish the east wall then move the carport and do the south wall which is 8' of concrete wall so very little siding
[22:10:04] <rob_h> Dont worry ull need to exstend again soon
[22:11:47] <JT-Shop> I'll have to add some ground first or go up the hill lol
[22:12:58] <rob_h> lo
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[22:13:55] <JT-Shop> getting too old for this construction crap
[22:13:55] <markvandenborre> any opinions on http://goodenoughcnc.eu/ ?
[22:14:53] <markvandenborre> (not as a base for a router, obviously, but as a plasma cutter)
[22:16:28] <markvandenborre> JT-Shop: you could also use the Segal method, with wooden stilts
[22:16:37] <markvandenborre> :-)
[22:16:57] <JT-Shop> getting too old for stairs lol
[22:17:09] <markvandenborre> for your extension I mean :p
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[22:17:41] <JT-Shop> ah yes I could... or I could move the hill behind me to fill the valley
[22:17:51] <markvandenborre> :-)
[22:18:02] <JT-Shop> have you seen my plasma?
[22:18:10] <markvandenborre> nope, pics?
[22:18:31] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma.xhtml
[22:18:45] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/images/plasma/
[22:18:58] <CaptHindsight> finboy is gone but here's the link: http://diylilcnc.org/bigshoulders/
[22:20:18] <ssi> JT-Shop: your Z axis looks a LOT like mine
[22:22:34] <JT-Shop> great minds think alike lol
[22:22:59] <ssi> :)
[22:23:53] <ssi> https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/936398_10100133657566672_1609229452_n.jpg?oh=70fb5f2032dc7927bcf77c9174401777&oe=56EF9AC3
[22:23:58] <ssi> that's before I Swapped it for a machine torch
[22:24:19] <ssi> and I use ohmic sensing now instead of microswitch
[22:24:45] <markvandenborre> JT-Shop: that looks like a rather powerful machine...
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[22:28:27] <markvandenborre> what are your thoughts when you see something extremely minimalist like the inras people's goodenoughcnc.eu ?
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[22:28:56] <markvandenborre> can you notice anything obviously completely wrong about their approach?
[22:29:23] <malcom2073> You understand what "It's not just good, it's good enough" means, yeah? :P
[22:29:43] <rob_h> gota have the 3d printed part now days i see
[22:29:47] <ssi> I'm a little leery of 3d printed parts and fittings in a plasma system
[22:29:56] <ssi> plasma machines cut with FIRE
[22:30:03] <malcom2073> Haha
[22:30:06] <malcom2073> cheap 3d printers love fire
[22:30:09] <malcom2073> They even make it sometimes
[22:30:10] <ssi> yes they do
[22:30:12] <rob_h> you mean the heat shorly will make plastic abit flexy
[22:30:24] <ssi> I used 3d printed mirror mounts in my laser system
[22:30:29] <ssi> (which also loved fire fwiw)
[22:30:34] <ssi> and they were fine
[22:30:37] <ssi> but they were also temporary
[22:30:58] <markvandenborre> ok, so plastic parts for bootstrapping only I guess
[22:31:17] <ssi> looks like they have a 3d printed part for a torch clamp
[22:31:21] <ssi> that's gonna fail pretty quickly
[22:31:27] <ssi> the torch body does get hot
[22:32:18] <malcom2073> They shoudl water cool it
[22:32:19] <markvandenborre> ok, so that sounds like "either don't touch it or use it as a bootstrapping device for cutting your metal torch clamp
[22:32:24] <malcom2073> cause what goes good with electicity and fire, but water
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[22:32:47] <ssi> malcom2073: plasma systems usually use water tables
[22:32:51] <ssi> some actually cut underwater
[22:32:56] <malcom2073> Shh, your logic has no place here
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[22:33:34] <ssi> I still need to figure out how I'm going to build my next laser table
[22:33:45] <ssi> I'd like to make it big
[22:33:47] <ssi> 5x10'
[22:33:50] <markvandenborre> ssi: lasersaur.com style?
[22:33:59] <markvandenborre> hm, won't scale up to that size
[22:34:15] <ssi> markvandenborre: yeah actually my last machine was very much like that but I designed it
[22:34:28] <ssi> two years ago
[22:35:01] <malcom2073> ssi: Buy my rails, they're strudy enough to be used as a frame in addition to linear rails :P
[22:35:11] <ssi> malcom2073: I thought about using your rails for it
[22:35:20] <ssi> but right now is a bad time for me to shell out for them :)
[22:35:26] <malcom2073> :P
[22:35:26] <ssi> and that's just a lot of money and overkill for a laser
[22:35:35] <malcom2073> Totally overkill for a laser
[22:35:37] <malcom2073> it's overkill for a wood router
[22:35:47] <malcom2073> tbh, I should make a VMC out of them
[22:35:52] <ssi> do it
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[22:36:03] <malcom2073> The frame alone to handle that would probably cost me $5k
[22:36:10] <ssi> probably
[22:36:11] <malcom2073> Ignoring the spindle requirements
[22:36:17] <markvandenborre> vmc == vertical machining center?
[22:36:24] <malcom2073> yeah
[22:36:34] <JT-Shop> when a web side only shows carefully planned limited photos of a machine I have my doubts
[22:36:56] <malcom2073> JT-Shop: That website looks like they're prepping to sell kits
[22:37:27] <JT-Shop> I'm sure they will sell a bunch on price alone
[22:37:27] <ssi> lasersaur site says approx $7k budget
[22:37:33] <ssi> that's pretty close to in line with what it cost me to build mine
[22:37:35] <JT-Shop> if it works or not...
[22:38:02] <malcom2073> ssi: What wattage?
[22:38:03] <JT-Shop> I bought the extruded rail and made all the fittings
[22:38:04] <ssi> 120W
[22:38:08] <malcom2073> Nice
[22:38:16] <malcom2073> I've been tempted to try one of the chinese blue box 40watt ones
[22:38:24] <ssi> I don't want one
[22:38:27] <ssi> they're crap in a lot of ways
[22:38:34] <ssi> not the least of which the fact that you have to use them like a printer
[22:38:56] <malcom2073> Can yourun the laser 100% duty cycle if you replace the controls?
[22:39:03] <malcom2073> Or is that whats limiting about them?
[22:39:14] <ssi> no idea
[22:39:20] <markvandenborre> I run a lasersaur... it runs a grbl fork
[22:39:21] <ssi> but you actually are better off pulsing the laser
[22:39:41] <malcom2073> So what's wrong with the chinese ones? Replace control hardware and software and I hear they're not bad
[22:39:51] <ssi> the optics and mounts are garbage
[22:39:55] <ssi> the tubes are cheap
[22:39:59] <ssi> I started with a cheap 40w chinese tube
[22:40:18] <malcom2073> I've been wondering about that, haven't heard much about the cheap chinese tubes as to if they're any good
[22:40:18] <ssi> the linear motion is crap and not extensible/hackable really
[22:40:22] <malcom2073> Shame that they're not
[22:40:30] <ssi> my second tube was a 120W reci
[22:40:33] <ssi> and I liked it quite a bit
[22:40:57] <markvandenborre> those tubes are quite nice indeed
[22:41:03] <ssi> not cheap!
[22:41:04] <ssi> but nice
[22:41:07] <markvandenborre> and quite cheap for what you get
[22:41:11] <ssi> the 40W cheap tube was $120
[22:41:17] <ssi> the 120W tube was more like $1000
[22:41:29] <malcom2073> Wow heh
[22:41:29] <markvandenborre> ~$850 nowadays
[22:41:35] <ssi> yea
[22:41:36] <ssi> plus shipping
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[22:41:44] <ssi> which is considerable if you can't get one domestically
[22:41:48] <ssi> $600 from china
[22:41:55] <malcom2073> So, not really worth fiddling with the cheap stuff at all, just save up for the big boys?
[22:42:17] <markvandenborre> depends on what you want to do
[22:42:17] <ssi> I dunno... I didn't like the idea of having to do a full retrofit on a bluebox right out of the gate
[22:42:24] <ssi> especially since it's not a remarkably retrofit friendly machine
[22:42:27] <malcom2073> yeah, but $500 box man
[22:42:42] <markvandenborre> oh, you're thinking of the crappy small A3 lasers?
[22:42:43] <ssi> if you're willing to consider it disposable, have at it
[22:42:51] <malcom2073> markvandenborre: The blue box chinese specials
[22:43:00] <markvandenborre> you'll learn a thing or two about lasers using those
[22:43:09] <ssi> http://www.amazon.com/Engraving-Cutting-Engraver-Parallel-Winsealxp/dp/B00C9UZCOS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1449096182&sr=8-3&keywords=laser+engraver
[22:43:13] <ssi> like those :P
[22:43:17] <ssi> those are TOO CHEAP
[22:43:24] <malcom2073> Lol on amazon
[22:43:24] <markvandenborre> yeah, the K40 ones
[22:43:45] <markvandenborre> you will be fiddling a lot aligning the mirrors
[22:43:54] <markvandenborre> and don't expect to do any serious cutting on those
[22:44:04] <markvandenborre> but could be nice for some engraving and whatnot
[22:44:15] <markvandenborre> the sweet spot is around 80W
[22:44:20] <malcom2073> Well it does say engraving heh
[22:44:21] <ssi> I would agree
[22:44:27] <markvandenborre> where you can do some relatively decent cutting and engraving
[22:44:42] <markvandenborre> they can't see cutting, or they would fall into a different import tax category...
[22:44:50] <ssi> I had more power than I could use with the focal length I had available
[22:44:57] <zeeshan> sweeet spot is around 50kW
[22:45:02] <zeeshan> =]
[22:45:08] <ssi> 80W-ish would do 1/2" plywood pretty well
[22:45:11] <ssi> and 3/4" marginally
[22:45:14] <ssi> but more power didn't help
[22:45:18] <FAalbers> Anyone here using CamBam to make gcode for LinuxCNC ?
[22:45:20] <malcom2073> Wow really
[22:45:23] <malcom2073> That's pretty thick
[22:45:24] <markvandenborre> 3/4" with 80?
[22:45:27] <malcom2073> FAalbers: I just started using cambam
[22:45:38] <malcom2073> Like I've only run it 2-3 times now heh
[22:45:43] <ssi> markvandenborre: maybe, I dunno... like I said I had 120W available
[22:45:52] <FAalbers> malcom2073, with CutViewer ?
[22:45:52] <ssi> and I feel like there was a current range at the top end where it didn't really help
[22:45:56] <markvandenborre> you need extremely high quality ply for 12mm
[22:45:59] <markvandenborre> at 120w
[22:46:00] <malcom2073> FAalbers: No, I use openscad for visualizations
[22:46:01] <ssi> yeah
[22:46:07] <ssi> glue voids were a big problem
[22:46:13] <malcom2073> ssi: What power level can you cut really thin sheet metal with?
[22:46:13] <markvandenborre> 3/4 no way, because of kerf and stuff
[22:46:18] <ssi> markvandenborre: 1kw :P
[22:46:31] <malcom2073> Hah, hence, plasma.
[22:46:37] <markvandenborre> malcom2073: starting from ~400w I'd say
[22:46:37] <ssi> I've been told you can do thin thin steel with 100W
[22:46:40] <ssi> but I had zero luck with it
[22:46:46] <markvandenborre> you really want to do plasma for metal
[22:46:56] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxXKXHtIIAAZJ_n.jpg:large
[22:46:58] <ssi> that's 1/2"
[22:47:04] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxXLUzjIQAApyFA.jpg:large
[22:47:12] <ssi> and that's an example of penetration failure due to a glue void
[22:47:14] <malcom2073> Heh
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[22:47:28] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxmXxPiIYAABIrC.jpg:large
[22:47:30] <malcom2073> Bet that smells good
[22:47:31] <ssi> that was my machine
[22:47:47] <ssi> 24x48" work area
[22:47:51] <malcom2073> Nice
[22:47:56] <FAalbers> Because I'm getting 'No tool found' in CutViewer when using LinuxCNC Post Processor !
[22:48:09] <FAalbers> malcom2073, ^^
[22:48:16] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxMAiYAIUAAfUAM.jpg:large
[22:48:17] <malcom2073> FAalbers: Did you explicitly set the tool? It defaults to tool 0 I believe
[22:48:21] <ssi> that was trying to cut 28ga steel
[22:48:25] <malcom2073> I have to set it to 1 for openscad to work
[22:48:29] <ssi> it made a mark I could feel with my fingernail
[22:48:31] <ssi> but that's it
[22:48:36] <FAalbers> malcom2073, Yes I did, in CamBam
[22:48:37] <ssi> that was with a 1.5" lens
[22:48:45] <malcom2073> ssi: Nice heh
[22:48:52] <malcom2073> FAalbers: Yeah that's about the extent of my knowlege there, sorry
[22:49:07] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BwplQ4aIYAE0nCc.jpg:large
[22:49:13] <ssi> 120W reci alongside cheapo 40W
[22:49:25] <FAalbers> malcom2073, If I use 'Mach3-CutViewer' Pre Processor it works fine !
[22:49:31] <malcom2073> Haha wow ssi
[22:49:38] <malcom2073> ssi: Wanna sell your old 40w?
[22:49:47] <ssi> sure
[22:49:51] <ssi> I don't have the power supply for it
[22:49:53] <ssi> but I have the tube
[22:49:56] <ssi> it survived the fire :)
[22:49:59] <malcom2073> What kind of power supply does it need?
[22:50:00] <malcom2073> Heh
[22:50:06] <ssi> a 40W laser power supply :)
[22:50:11] <ssi> runs about $100
[22:50:30] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuIYL4rIAAArx6b.jpg:large
[22:50:59] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0skzXwIAAE-LW0.jpg:large
[22:51:43] <malcom2073> ssi: tube, power supply, these: http://www.lightobject.com/40W-CO2-laser-Mirror-Lens-DIY-bundle-P551.aspx and what else would really be required? Besides all the appropriate safety equipment?
[22:52:04] <ssi> those are junky optics
[22:52:49] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/40W-Power-Supply-CO2-Laser-Engraver-Cuttier-Machine-110V-220V-Switch-green-port-/231550508351?hash=item35e97c5d3f:g:lqwAAOSwuMFUcpRq
[22:53:03] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/10600nm-CO2-Laser-Head-K9-Mirro-ST-lens-FL-1-5-2-2-5-3-4-Cutter-Engraver-/231238453846?var=&hash=item35d6e2ca56:m:m1LTDBdK9lq3orPC_a5XuQA
[22:53:06] <ssi> I like that style head better
[22:53:16] <ssi> that seller has kits with a head, two mounts, three mirrors and a lens
[22:53:32] <ssi> about $160 or so when I bought it
[22:53:33] <ssi> trying to find it now
[22:53:41] <malcom2073> Rapidly getting up to the price of buying a blue box heh
[22:53:47] <ssi> it'll cost more than a blue box
[22:53:54] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-set-of-CO2-10600nm-Laser-Head-K9-Mirrors-ZNSE-Lens-Integrative-Mounts-/230926445035?var=&hash=item35c449e9eb:m:mrAH4ZtCrC4hQaKCeDTGcRA
[22:54:03] <malcom2073> So probably better off getting a blue box, fiddling, then eventually going larger when I can build my own frame
[22:54:19] <ssi> yes, if you're comfortable throwing it away
[22:54:27] <ssi> and comfortable potentially getting zero good results out of it :)
[22:54:53] <ssi> and if you can run corel draw with the requisit printer driver plugin or wtfever it takes to use it
[22:54:56] <malcom2073> There was one at a local makerspace type thing, it seemed to do pretty well, even with the stock control system heh
[22:55:05] <malcom2073> I'd replace the controls though
[22:55:14] <ssi> "replacing the controls" is an unknown quantity
[22:55:25] <ssi> you might as well replace teh controls in your storebought $70 inject printer
[22:55:28] <ssi> it's basically the same thing
[22:55:32] <ssi> inkjet
[22:55:33] <ssi> dammit
[22:56:05] <malcom2073> ssi: If your storebought inkjet has an internet following, and all sorts of people with how-tos/etc on how to do it heh
[22:56:20] <ssi> do you want to replace the controls with an arduino?
[22:56:27] <ssi> cause if so then yes the internet has everything you could hope for
[22:56:37] <ssi> or if you want to make the laser pulse out the super mario brothers theme
[22:56:41] <malcom2073> Probably with linuxcnc, but the concept is the same
[22:56:48] <markvandenborre> malcom2073: http://www.cncoletech.com/
[22:56:58] <markvandenborre> they are known good Chinese suppliers
[22:57:06] <markvandenborre> and they also have an ebay store
[22:57:08] <ssi> I would want to know something about the axes and motors and drives in the thing before I bought it
[22:57:24] <malcom2073> ssi: like I said, there's a ton of information on them
[22:57:36] <ssi> then you're well on your way
[22:57:38] <markvandenborre> you could have a look at http://labs.nortd.com/lasersaur/bom-zero-suppliers-eur for some more inspiration if you' wat
[22:57:39] <Jymmm> malcom2073: how much you want to spend (give _A_ real number)
[22:57:42] <markvandenborre> want
[22:57:50] <malcom2073> Jymmm: I'm not buying anything, I'm tossing around ideas :P
[22:58:00] <ssi> well I'm going to tell you this
[22:58:02] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Give a number
[22:58:07] <ssi> a usable laser cutter is not $500
[22:58:11] <ssi> no matter how you do it
[22:58:27] <ssi> mine was about $4k to get it functional with 40w
[22:58:31] <ssi> and about 6k all up with 120W
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[22:58:47] <malcom2073> This is why I hate the internet, so much conflicting information heh
[22:58:53] <ssi> mine was probably overkill in the electronics department
[22:58:59] <ssi> it was all mesa with real discrete stepper drivers
[22:59:11] <ssi> so allegro chips running nema17 crap or floppy drive steppers
[22:59:11] <markvandenborre> mine was around 8k(€, excluding VAT)
[22:59:24] <ssi> s/so/NO/
[22:59:26] <markvandenborre> that was because I didn't know scratch about this stuff at the time
[22:59:35] <malcom2073> I have tons of steppers/drivers (not arduino crap) heh
[22:59:40] <malcom2073> So electronics are easy
[22:59:56] <ssi> if the electronics are easy then you have nothing to gripe about
[23:00:00] <malcom2073> Well, I also have a bunch of arduino crap too, but that notwtihstanding
[23:00:00] <ssi> build a motion frame, you know how to do that
[23:00:06] <ssi> buy $250 worth of tube and power supply
[23:00:12] <ssi> buy $170 worth of optics
[23:00:14] <ssi> done
[23:00:22] <ssi> the laser part is actually really easy
[23:00:28] <ssi> the rest is just building a gantry frame
[23:00:38] <ssi> that will be considerably easier than retrofitting a blue box
[23:00:44] <ssi> just not CHEAPER
[23:00:48] <ssi> because you have to build a motion table
[23:01:06] <ssi> but you'll end up with a real machine that you can use
[23:01:11] <ssi> just try to avoid plywood
[23:01:14] <ssi> :)
[23:01:14] <malcom2073> Haha
[23:01:35] <ssi> also you need to carefully consider focal lengths
[23:01:49] <ssi> the shortcoming in my machine was I didn't have enough room under the head or adjustability for wide focal ranges
[23:01:59] <ssi> I could run 1.5" and 2" lenses no problem, 4" was a stretch
[23:02:15] <ssi> that's why a lot of "real" machines have drop bed Z axes
[23:02:23] <malcom2073> Makes sense yeah
[23:02:23] <ssi> mine had no Z axis, just an adjustable focal length head
[23:02:32] <malcom2073> What do different focal lengths do for you?
[23:02:44] <markvandenborre> they make it easier to cut thicker materials
[23:02:48] * Jymmm looks over at the "Autofocus" button
[23:02:50] <markvandenborre> that's one...
[23:03:18] <markvandenborre> think of the light as a cone...
[23:03:44] <markvandenborre> as two cones touching, ideally, near the surface of the material
[23:03:51] <markvandenborre> (or in case of some materials, near the middle)
[23:04:04] <malcom2073> So longer focal lengths mean you can cut thicker, since the beam diverges less over the thicknes of the material?
[23:04:12] <markvandenborre> correct
[23:04:34] <markvandenborre> but it also means potentially more calibration problems and other tradeoffs
[23:05:25] <markvandenborre> you really want to read the lasersaur mailing list archives, they're quite high quality
[23:05:27] <ssi> it also means a colder spot
[23:06:54] <markvandenborre> malcom2073: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/lasersaur
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[23:07:41] <markvandenborre> (even if the lasersaur design might look like overkill for you, you will learn a lot from the discussions there)
[23:08:25] <malcom2073> Doesn't look like overkill
[23:10:03] <markvandenborre> it's a really well researched hardware design
[23:10:22] <markvandenborre> I wish something FOSS like that was available for CNC routers also
[23:10:32] <ssi> what's the limitation with scaling to 4x8?
[23:10:35] <ssi> just the makerslide extrusion?
[23:11:06] <markvandenborre> I guess you'd bump into problems with belts, extrusions and more
[23:11:23] <ssi> belts I'm not too worried about
[23:11:25] <markvandenborre> plus optics travelling over a bigger table really are more tricky
[23:11:32] <ssi> and I'd likely run the gantry as the short axis on a machine that big
[23:11:40] <ssi> I dunno I guess I could do another 2x4 machine
[23:11:49] <ssi> but I'd want to do somewhat bigger cause I want to do wing jigs
[23:11:55] <ssi> so I need to figure out the biggest wing I need to do
[23:12:00] <ssi> probably 3x6' would work
[23:12:07] <ssi> just sucks not being able to do full sheets
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[23:12:40] <markvandenborre> where my machine is, 1500x1500mm is a fairly common sheet size too (Russian ply)
[23:13:08] <markvandenborre> or rather, Soviet style ply (the Baltics are former USSR, now EU!)
[23:14:08] <markvandenborre> with some good alignment tools, you might want to make it a "turn the plate" design...
[23:14:25] <markvandenborre> where you turn your plywood around for the second half of really big jobs
[23:15:18] <markvandenborre> or maybe something could be done with the optics entering the table in the middle
[23:15:25] <markvandenborre> the beam I mean
[23:15:58] <markvandenborre> so that you would only have to cover 8' max (4x, 4y) on either side
[23:17:10] <markvandenborre> I just know that cost goes up exponentially with tube power and optics quality...
[23:18:05] <ssi> I don't know how I'd do the beam path that way
[23:18:16] <ssi> sounds liek more trouble than it's worth
[23:19:34] <ssi> looks like as far as wing ribs 66" is about the max chord that I'd be concerned with
[23:19:45] <ssi> so 36x72" would be adequate
[23:19:51] <ssi> I'm pretty sure I could do that with the same tech I had before
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[23:20:20] <ssi> I had a 48" gantry before, I could turn it sideways and run a 36" gantry over a 72" X axis
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[23:44:54] <andypugh> markvandenborre: Mechmate isn’t exactly FOSS, but you can have the plans for free.
[23:45:59] <malcom2073> andypugh: ! What's that silly two wheeled thingie you have, that's you yeah?
[23:46:00] <malcom2073> The old one
[23:46:21] <andypugh> It’s a Ner-a-Car
[23:46:30] <malcom2073> Yes! That one, couldn't remember what it was called
[23:46:30] <malcom2073> thanks
[23:47:59] <andypugh> I have a really bad business in making spares from them. I make a small loss on every part :-)
[23:48:40] <malcom2073> So what you're saying, is you have a hobby that won't pay for itself? :P
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[23:49:40] <malcom2073> I need to find some niche I can make parts at a loss for
[23:49:42] <malcom2073> would be fun
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