#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-08-08

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[00:00:20] <furrywolf> the anti-theft is built into the ecu for some who-the-fuck-knows-why reason, so you also need the electronics module bolted to the steering column, the ignition switch module, and original key, as well as some other crap from inside the dash I don't remember.
[00:00:42] <Sync_> yeah andypugh, my dads megane had some significant fuel savings when I deleted the dpf and egr
[00:00:44] <furrywolf> people have done swaps and had to keep the stock ignition cylinder electronics, with the key duct-taped to it, stuffed inside the harness. heh.
[00:00:54] <Sync_> I'd flash the immo away
[00:01:08] <Sync_> or code it to the existing one
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[00:01:35] <furrywolf> most swaps are into vehicles without electronic keys. :)
[00:02:11] <furrywolf> people who want cleaner installs buy the bosch aftermarket ecu, but it, cables, software, etc, apparantly runs around $2k.
[00:02:20] <Sync_> immos were mandatory since I think 95 in the EU
[00:02:24] <andypugh> With Fords the ECU, cluster and BCM all do a little dance together and agree that they belong together. This it (I think, not my field) to prevent peopls from stealing ECUs (or just buying them to make the milage look lower).
[00:02:56] <Sync_> furrywolf: sounds reasonable
[00:03:07] <andypugh> But, it is possible to re-match the modules, any dealer should be able to do it if you can prove that it’s all legit.
[00:03:13] <Sync_> andypugh: that's what they all do
[00:03:16] <furrywolf> andypugh: I've never worked on a ford like that, but I have worked on BMWs like that, and it's a royal pain in the ass, because only a few shops can re-key ECUs... so if you need a new ECU, you have to send it off to one of these shops, along with the security module and ignition keys.
[00:03:18] <Sync_> but all of them ar broken
[00:03:26] <furrywolf> BMW dealers will not rekey a used ECU.
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[00:03:36] <furrywolf> they will only sell you a new one, for the same price as a new used car.
[00:04:19] <Sync_> it's not that bad, they run around 2-3k
[00:04:22] <furrywolf> the last one I worked on, we ended up having to mail the new ecu, security module, and key, to a company on the other side of the country...
[00:04:33] <furrywolf> yes. the car we were working on cost $500. :P
[00:04:39] <furrywolf> not going to spend $3k on an ecu for it!
[00:04:39] <Sync_> but at least most (I think) of them are flashable now
[00:05:06] <andypugh> furrywolf: I would be surprised it that is actually BMW policy. That’s probably the dealers being awkward.
[00:05:28] <furrywolf> my friend got it cheap because a shop diagnosed it as having jumped time. sure 'nuff, when we cranked it, it promptly backfired out the intake, tried running backwards, and generally failed miserably.
[00:05:45] <furrywolf> I pulled the ecu power and cranked it, and it sounded perfectly smooth, good compression. obviously no actual mechanical issues.
[00:05:56] <furrywolf> which means the shop that diagnosed it did a piss-poor job.
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[00:06:20] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I love cheap because misdiagnoses
[00:06:48] <XXCoder> I once bought a car, it had tranmission noises and few issues
[00:07:03] <XXCoder> noises in tranmission? lack of tranny fluid apparently
[00:07:26] <XXCoder> (I bought someone who could hear with me)
[00:07:42] <XXCoder> that car lasted 9 years before totaled lol
[00:07:47] <furrywolf> pulled the ECU... http://fw.bushytails.net/coildrivers01.jpg
[00:07:52] <XXCoder> could easily last another 10
[00:08:05] <Sync_> andypugh: do you happen to know how exhaust pressure measurements are done? just high temp piezo transducers or any magic?
[00:08:06] <XXCoder> released magic smoke I see
[00:08:28] <andypugh> XXCoder: I thought you were going to say “Tranny noises? Why would I care?"
[00:08:43] <furrywolf> it didn't just release the magic smoke. it got hot enough that the solder melted, and each transistor slid sideways until it shorted to the one next to it. so when it tried firing on them, it also fired its neighbor!
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[00:08:56] <furrywolf> s/on them/one of them
[00:08:57] <XXCoder> ouch
[00:09:13] <andypugh> Sync_: Just long metal then rubber tubes to a perfectly normal sensor on the bulkhead.
[00:09:22] <furrywolf> which is why it was shooting flames out the intake, running backwards, etc.
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[00:10:49] <LatheBuilder_2> hi PetefromTn_
[00:11:17] <Sync_> oh, that is suprisingly lame andypugh
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[00:11:56] <andypugh> Why lame? It’s all that you need, and it’s cheaper than hot stuff, and more reliable.
[00:11:58] <furrywolf> ironically enough, two years later, the engine did jump time. this time it was a lot more obvious. it stopped with a crunch, wouldn't crank over, and when you turned the crank backwards with a breaker bar, you could see the timing chain, covered in aluminum chunks, didn't turn with it...
[00:12:13] <furrywolf> dropped the oil pan, found it full of broken timing guide bits.
[00:12:50] <just_pink_> furrywolf: what is the broken PCB on the picture?
[00:13:01] <furrywolf> he put a junkyard engine in it, and it's still his daily driver.
[00:13:11] <furrywolf> just_pink_: the ECU from a 98 BMW 540i
[00:13:35] <just_pink_> ECU??
[00:13:51] <furrywolf> Engine Control Unit
[00:13:59] <furrywolf> the computer that makes a modern fuel-injected engine run
[00:14:55] <just_pink_> ouch
[00:15:18] <Sync_> andypugh: well, because on the instrumented merc we had at work they ran water cooled piezos
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[00:15:24] <Sync_> for whatever reason
[00:15:29] <andypugh> In the trade we call that the PCM (Powertrain Control Module)
[00:16:02] <PetefromTn_> LatheBuilder_2 hey
[00:16:11] <furrywolf> and bmw calls it a DME. your point? :P
[00:16:14] <andypugh> Sync_: Yes, we run super-expensive stuff on instrumented test cars. But nothing in production is allowed to cost money
[00:16:59] <Sync_> yeah but I'm trying to instrument my race car for some actual engineering
[00:17:10] <andypugh> Well, ECU is semi-generic Electronic Control Module, and cars now have several ECUs all with different jobs.
[00:17:13] <Sync_> so I'm looking at how to do it right
[00:17:47] <furrywolf> andypugh: happen to know anything about intake design? I have a resonance from 1000-1500RPM at WOT, that should be eliminated with a helmholtz resonator. :)
[00:18:07] <just_pink_> * furrywolf go back to carburetor
[00:18:11] <andypugh> I know enough to know what I don’t know.
[00:18:23] <furrywolf> yeah, I often have that problem.
[00:18:53] <andypugh> You are on the right track, we use them on cars, bt how you design one? No idea.
[00:19:24] <Sync_> wikipedia has the formulas
[00:19:35] <Sync_> the rest is trying stuff out
[00:19:43] <furrywolf> there's a lot more to design than formulas. :P
[00:19:43] <Sync_> I have one in my room to dampen some echo
[00:20:12] <furrywolf> and formulas generally always assume a perfect cylinder with frictionless walls or other crap that has nothing to do with the real world, where you're trying to stuff it inside a fender and it's made of plastic.
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[00:20:38] <Sync_> it's suprisingly close
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[00:22:31] <andypugh> Ours are rarely bigger than about 1 litre
[00:22:51] <furrywolf> the car I got the engine from a had a big honkin' one taking up much of the passenger side fender, maybe 2l.
[00:22:58] <just_pink_> I break the last end mill!!
[00:23:16] <furrywolf> it's because the resonance is at such a low frequency
[00:23:23] <andypugh> It may be that the trick is to get it in the right place. We jusr 3D print a dozen variations and test them…
[00:23:30] <furrywolf> LOL
[00:23:44] <Sync_> what's so funny?
[00:23:55] <Sync_> resonances are annoying real world problems
[00:24:03] <furrywolf> Sync_: because that's the exact opposite of using formulas. :P
[00:24:09] <andypugh> just_pink_: It is a dreadful state of affairs that nobody sells end-mills at 0124am on a saturday morning!
[00:24:09] <Sync_> well
[00:24:12] <Sync_> not really
[00:24:16] <Sync_> you get the rough idea
[00:24:19] <Sync_> and then try what works
[00:24:40] <Sync_> as those are full of real world problems
[00:24:47] <furrywolf> unfortunately, it's a lot harder for me to do that.
[00:24:53] <furrywolf> because prototypes are expensive.
[00:24:59] <Sync_> that's the way it is
[00:24:59] <PetefromTn_> andypugh ain't it the truth
[00:25:11] <furrywolf> yes. I pointed out that real world often differs from forumlas.
[00:25:12] <just_pink_> andypugh: here is 8:25PM
[00:25:27] <furrywolf> here it's 5:25PM, but no one sells endmills any time day or night.
[00:25:29] <PetefromTn_> hey that's my time zone LOL
[00:25:30] <Sync_> sure, but the formula gets you close
[00:25:39] <andypugh> They are all designed by formula, the testing is to determine which ones don’t have secondary effect, like making a farting noise, or confusing the MAF sensor, or making the duct rotate at +40C
[00:26:00] <furrywolf> yeah, confusing the maf sensor is my issue with not having one.
[00:26:14] <Sync_> pfft maf
[00:27:01] <andypugh> The MAF sensor is the most important one you have for an injection system, regardless of what you are trying to achieve
[00:27:29] <furrywolf> the other option is I'll just make a little pcb that has a MAF compensation table in it.
[00:27:38] <furrywolf> and tune the problem out
[00:27:40] <Sync_> why not just run alphaN?
[00:28:06] <furrywolf> just have rpm and throttle position as the inputs, and each cell be a scaling factor for the maf voltage.
[00:28:32] <andypugh> Though you could try: http://roguespeedshop.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/wal-phillips-fuel-injectors.html
[00:29:02] <furrywolf> no idea what alphaN is.
[00:29:03] <Sync_> hm well, it seems kistler wants an arm for new sensors
[00:29:05] <Sync_> that sucks
[00:29:21] <Sync_> alpha = throttle plate angle, N = engine rpm
[00:29:34] <furrywolf> I've heard the term, but don't know its meaning. heh.
[00:29:40] <furrywolf> ... because that sucks? lol
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[00:30:01] <Sync_> well, it sucks that they want so much money for the ride height sensors I want
[00:30:49] <furrywolf> I was thinking the other day about cheap ride height sensors... how about an induction coil and a block of steel on top of the suspension component being measured? check for changes in the resonant frequency of an lc system...
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[00:31:50] <furrywolf> I plan on sticking air shocks on one of my subarus, and was thinking how I could make them fancy auto-levelling.
[00:31:59] <Sync_> cheap ride height sensors = potentiometers
[00:32:01] <furrywolf> then I decided it was too much work and a little flippy switch was adequate. :)
[00:32:04] <Sync_> like every car with xenons
[00:32:29] <Sync_> but that sucks when you are trying to measure platform vs wheel
[00:32:34] <furrywolf> I bought the air shocks and the compressor, but... I have too many projects.
[00:33:12] <andypugh> furrywolf: Two coaxial aluminum tubes, set up an LC bridge
[00:33:39] <andypugh> (I have actually done this, it works)
[00:33:45] <furrywolf> that seems prone to failing in the presense of mud and water.
[00:33:55] <Sync_> well, just buy four pots off some other car
[00:34:00] <Sync_> and connect them with a linkage
[00:34:05] <Sync_> it is pretty simple
[00:34:19] <Sync_> but I'm trying to do suspension tuning
[00:34:28] <Sync_> which turns out to be a pretty expensive thing to do
[00:34:46] <furrywolf> if it's just for temporary use, you can jury rig something with a couple pots pretty easily.
[00:35:47] <Sync_> there are actual real ones with weatherproofing for cheap
[00:35:53] <furrywolf> I should finish that project one of these days... I already bought all the parts... it's just time and energy. heh. I have the air shocks, compressor, and lines sitting in a box...
[00:36:07] <Sync_> but eh, air shocks
[00:36:31] <andypugh> Laser triangulation sensors somewhere convenient: http://www.micro-epsilon.co.uk/displacement-position-sensors/laser-sensor/optoNCDT_1402SC/index.html
[00:36:45] <furrywolf> I think he said cheap. :P
[00:37:01] <furrywolf> also, anything optical will fail with mud.
[00:37:07] <furrywolf> and your suspension WILL be covered in mud.
[00:37:15] <Sync_> depends how you package it
[00:37:41] <furrywolf> what, you don't like air shocks?
[00:37:46] <Sync_> yes
[00:37:49] <andypugh> Ah, chape might be a problem: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MICRO-OPTRONIC-OPTONCDT-OPTONCDT1800-RS232-K6-/381168823703?hash=item58bf6ead97
[00:38:38] <Sync_> I thought about using an industrial sensor for rideheight
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[00:38:47] <furrywolf> Sync_: do you have a better suggestion for how to get a nice smooth ride when empty but not sag when 1/2 the car's weight suddenly appears over the axle?
[00:38:48] <Sync_> but most of them do not have the bandwidth I think I need
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[00:39:22] <Sync_> hydraulic leveling
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[00:39:29] <furrywolf> yeah, which is easier? :P
[00:39:31] <furrywolf> lol
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[00:39:54] <furrywolf> if I wanted to be really fancy, I could replace the manual torsion bar adjuster with an electric one.
[00:40:23] <furrywolf> old subarus had user-adjustable torsion bars... I have mine cranked all the way up right now. heh.
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[00:40:56] <Sync_> well, I don't like how airbags feel under fast driving
[00:41:05] <andypugh> MotoGP seems to use LVDTs to log suspension position. But then they are not particularly budget-constrained. http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/popular/suzuki-xrh-1-motogp-photos-eicma/
[00:41:06] <Sync_> as the spring rate is not constant usually
[00:41:59] <Sync_> andypugh: I already have linear pots on all dampeners, that's not the problem
[00:42:20] <furrywolf> Sync_: I'm adding air shocks to the existing torsion bar suspension, not replacing it.
[00:42:30] <furrywolf> just to add extra lift with heavy loads, not for normal driving.
[00:43:05] <Sync_> that's an interesting setup, most people just replace the springs?
[00:43:08] <furrywolf> do you need to measure absolute position, or can you measure velocity and integrate for an approximation?
[00:43:31] <furrywolf> these are air shocks that mount in place of your shock absorbers, with no change to the suspension.
[00:44:09] <furrywolf> http://www.monroe.com/en-US/products/Max-Air that variety.
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[00:44:29] <Sync_> that will ride strange
[00:44:44] <Sync_> as the curve is progressive
[00:45:09] <Sync_> well, how would I measure velocity?
[00:45:11] <furrywolf> it'll ride a lot better than being too soft until it hits the hard rubber bump stop. :P
[00:45:22] <furrywolf> velocity is easy. a magnet and any coil of wire. :)
[00:45:24] <just_pink_> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Carbon-Fiber-Digital-Caliper-6-/H8135
[00:45:31] <Sync_> I need to look at the position of the vehicle platform relative to the wheel
[00:45:32] <just_pink_> junk?
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[00:45:46] <furrywolf> it starts with grizzly, so yes.
[00:45:58] <jdh> junk. the $10 HF ones are better
[00:46:05] <jdh> (metal)
[00:46:27] <furrywolf> they sell that one for $7 at harbor freight.
[00:46:34] <jdh> it's junk there too
[00:46:44] <furrywolf> I owned one. the gibs got loose, then they fell out when I tried adjusting them, then it never went back together right.
[00:46:45] <just_pink_> I have Signet stainless
[00:47:20] <furrywolf> also, carbon fiber? LOL. it's some fiber-reinforced plastic, but it's certainly not layered carbon fiber with resin... it's just plastic.
[00:47:43] <Sync_> I just got a mitu digimatic
[00:48:01] <furrywolf> I have a couple of the harbor freight stainless ones... they seem to work well for the price.
[00:48:18] <jdh> I have 5 or 6 of them. some are better than others
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[00:48:40] <furrywolf> the trick is to never use two at once. :P
[00:48:54] <furrywolf> they're like clocks or multimeters... the more of them you have, the less sure you are of your answer. :)
[00:49:42] <jdh> I have mitutoyo and moderatley cheap SPI at work. They read the same as my HF
[00:50:23] <Sync_> hmm I see suzuki uses texane
[00:51:09] <Sync_> andypugh: I'm not sure if they use lvdt
[00:51:15] <Sync_> the rear one certainly looks like it
[00:51:28] <XXCoder> mitytoyo mm and calibre
[00:51:32] <furrywolf> just_pink_: http://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-digital-caliper-47257.html those are perpetually on sale for $9.99-$14.99 with coupon. google for a coupon, buy.
[00:51:33] <XXCoder> I like thaty brand
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[00:52:14] <just_pink_> furrywolf: I have all stainless caliper
[00:52:36] <furrywolf> just_pink_: they also have a port if you want to use them as a DRO or log readings.
[00:53:20] <furrywolf> does linuxcnc have a chinese caliper DRO driver yet? :)
[00:53:23] <just_pink_> but I have 6in" calipers.
[00:53:42] <furrywolf> ... then why did you ask about a 6" caliper?
[00:54:08] <just_pink_> I want to know what is the carbon fiber..
[00:54:38] <furrywolf> it's not carbon fiber like you're thinking of, with shiny layers. it's just black plastic that might, in theory, have carbon fiber reinforcing it.
[00:54:54] <XXCoder> furrywolf: that caliper is suspectiously accurate for $20
[00:55:45] <just_pink_> someone know about keychain caliper?
[00:56:02] <just_pink_> digital..
[00:56:02] <jdh> I have one of those plastic ones. I didn't bother replacing the battery.
[00:56:06] <XXCoder> just googled it. whaa
[00:56:56] <XXCoder> http://i1111.photobucket.com/albums/h461/candihk123/key%20chain/80.jpg
[00:57:06] <furrywolf> its accuracy is embiggened by the subtruthfullality of the promoadvertising subdivision.
[00:57:26] <XXCoder> ah good facts not true facts
[00:57:35] <XXCoder> (from babylon 5 lol)
[00:57:41] <furrywolf> it seems pretty accurate from my using it.
[00:57:41] <just_pink_> I like to talk to people not to to the computer - I'm loking for somthing digital..
[00:57:53] <furrywolf> I have not tested it against any particularly accurate standards, however.
[00:58:46] <andypugh> furrywolf: I think there is a Chinese DRO driver out there, not in the main code base though
[00:58:54] <XXCoder> aliexpress has keychain caliper for 82 cents
[00:58:59] <XXCoder> free shipping lol
[01:00:19] <Sync_> isn't it just quadrature?
[01:01:18] <andypugh> Google Messograf It’s a perfectly good pen and also a decent caliper
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[01:01:41] <XXCoder> whats next? drill bit that is also an caliper? lol
[01:01:43] <andypugh> I definitly don’t regret buying mine at the price
[01:02:17] <furrywolf> Sync_: no, those chinese calipers have some kind of actual protocol output that gives the current position, zeroing, etc.
[01:02:47] <andypugh> Messograf is a bit strange, they have bypassed the perfectly good retract mechanism built in to the refill with their own brass one…
[01:03:10] <Sync_> ah yeah, idk
[01:03:23] * furrywolf has never heard of one of them
[01:03:30] <XXCoder> Messograf looks nice
[01:03:35] <XXCoder> and I ALWAYS need a pen
[01:03:45] <XXCoder> I carry one with me constantly
[01:03:48] <furrywolf> I use the pilot G2 gel pens for everything.
[01:04:48] <furrywolf> bbl, need to flush the power steering on my car before it gets dark.
[01:05:24] <just_pink_> DONE
[01:05:37] <furrywolf> my power steering flush is done? thanks. :P
[01:07:06] <XXCoder> andypugh: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Novelty-Vernier-caliper-Plastic-Ballpoint-Pens-Caliper-pen-Messograf-Caliper-Pen/32394393307.html
[01:07:15] <XXCoder> cheapie version lol 100 of em
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[01:09:26] <jdh> on click amazon prime messograf
[01:10:17] <andypugh> Here’s an interesting question. I just bought a MIG welder. It does MAG too, so has both positve and negative outputs on the big twisty terminals. Which is the earth clamp for MIG? The manual is hilarious, and goes into some depth about safety “badly hurts above are of sight-hurt, injury, (high, low temperature) hurt, live wire, fracture, poison etc which can leave sequelas and need to live at hospital for
[01:10:17] <andypugh> treatments).”
[01:10:21] <just_pink_> XXCoder: cuuuuuteeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
[01:10:41] <just_pink_> I want it!!!
[01:11:12] <XXCoder> just search caliper pen there there is lots options
[01:11:25] <andypugh> just_pink_: The actual Messograph is made in Germans, costs 20x as much, and is actually accurate
[01:11:38] <XXCoder> andypugh: indeed
[01:12:01] <just_pink_> for 1 each X20 is just 20$..
[01:12:03] <just_pink_> LINK!!
[01:12:13] <andypugh> And, really, 20x as much is still not super-costly
[01:12:25] <jdh> http://www.amazon.com/Cleo-Skribent%C2%AE-of-Germany-20005/dp/B003JGCR30
[01:13:45] <XXCoder> "If you slide the clip all the way off, there is a tiny spring clip which falls out and gets lost easily."
[01:13:47] <XXCoder> good to know.
[01:14:36] <andypugh> Hmm, mine stops at the bottom
[01:15:07] <jdh> what is MAG welding?
[01:15:18] <andypugh> ordinary arc
[01:15:18] <XXCoder> one reviewer says he or shes over 120 years ld
[01:15:40] <andypugh> Facebook thinks that I am 97
[01:15:43] <XXCoder> bullshit. there is only 6 women over 115 (bi-millenial) and zero men left
[01:16:01] <XXCoder> one manrecently died
[01:16:14] <Sync_> andypugh: use reverse polarity
[01:16:39] <andypugh> It turned out that the oldest man (in Japan) had actually been dead for 20 years, but the family like the pension :-)
[01:16:57] <XXCoder> ow
[01:17:33] <andypugh> Sync_: The question is, how have they connected the Euro-torch?
[01:17:48] <jdh> amazon will deliver my messograf sunday
[01:18:32] <Sync_> measure andypugh
[01:18:32] <andypugh> I have three connectors. Clearly the Mig torch goes in the Euro-torch socket, the question that the manual doesn’t address is where they expect the return clamp to go.
[01:18:40] <Sync_> ah
[01:18:42] <Sync_> well
[01:18:58] <Sync_> they have done a transformer with center tap most probably
[01:19:07] <Sync_> so you can put the ground clamp on the side you want the polarity
[01:19:25] <Sync_> just measure what is what
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[01:19:38] <andypugh> It’s an inverter..,
[01:20:15] <andypugh> Can you do a centre tapped inverter?
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[01:22:16] <andypugh> It is entirely possible that they have been clever and you swap connectors to swap polarity. But they don’t seem to say
[01:22:24] <Sync_> what keeps you from doing it?
[01:22:38] <Sync_> it is also clevur because it saves on the diode
[01:22:44] <Sync_> but needs a bit more copper
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[01:22:57] <Sync_> almost all inverters do that, especially AC tigs
[01:23:04] <Sync_> as you do not need a fullbridge to invert
[01:23:18] <andypugh> I will find out, I guess
[01:23:20] <Sync_> they most likely have been clever
[01:24:08] <andypugh> I am rather surprisd that I have had the welder since Wednesday and haven’t yet plugged it in.
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[01:27:06] <just_pink_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSDeOZuNz_E
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[01:33:44] <just_pink_> 37.4C or 99.5F for bearings - it is too hot??
[01:35:34] <just_pink_> who just bought one??
[01:36:27] <jdh> <-
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[01:39:07] <cradek> that's just a warm day
[01:39:46] <XXCoder> 99.5 is "hery hot" around where I live
[01:39:52] <XXCoder> 80s F is "hot"
[01:40:10] <just_pink_> jdh: what kind of a cnc do you have?
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[01:40:34] <jdh> g0704, chinese 6040, lathe-in-progress
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[01:41:08] <XXCoder> amazing!
[01:41:09] <XXCoder> http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/new-water-treatment-technique-may-clean-pharmaceuticals-h2o/
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[01:41:38] <just_pink_> jdh: steppers?
[01:41:48] <jdh> yeah
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[01:42:57] <XXCoder> argh
[01:43:04] <XXCoder> Mr_Sheesh keeps leaving and joining
[01:43:08] <XXCoder> constantl;y
[01:44:22] <malcom2073> Sheesh!
[01:44:44] <jdh> I use smartfilter.pl, it hides parts/joins from inactive people
[01:45:10] <XXCoder> what do it define inactive as?
[01:45:48] <jdh> no activity in n seconds
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[01:47:02] <XXCoder> old hexchat used to also ignore join/leaves when ignall
[01:47:05] <XXCoder> but it dont now
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[01:53:32] <andypugh> just_pink_: That girl in the video with the Messograph had me cringing. She claims to be an “engineer”, and it is quite likely that she has more engineering qualifications than me. But she can’t work a vernier scale, she can’t measure a bolt, and she doesn’t know about tapping drills.
[01:55:52] <just_pink_> LOL!!!
[01:56:06] <just_pink_> I see that also!
[01:56:27] <malcom2073> I had to introduce an engineer to an extension cord, and explain that it allowed him to run spot lights while outside (rather than doing it inside)
[01:58:31] <jdh> I have a ChemE engineer at work for the summer. It's amazing
[01:58:39] <jdh> s/engineer/intern/
[01:59:02] <just_pink_> I thin k I learn how to read the fraction on the analog caliper when I was 10..
[01:59:15] <just_pink_> I mwan to the sub mm scale..
[01:59:20] <just_pink_> mean*
[01:59:37] <andypugh> The Vernier scale proves an something that most people don’t reaise. You can read a ruler to 1/1000” or 0.01mm.
[02:00:43] <andypugh> But you can only do that when there are two lines to align. The Vernier scale isn’t magic, it just gives you lines in all the places you need one.
[02:01:04] <just_pink_> I know
[02:01:14] <furrywolf> yay, test drive complete, power steering noise mostly gone.
[02:01:28] <jdh> you do subarus?
[02:01:36] <furrywolf> yes
[02:01:58] <jdh> how many miles can you get out of a 2006-2010 one?
[02:01:58] <just_pink_> I work with the analog one before I had the digital one..
[02:02:11] <andypugh> just_pink_: I am not lecturing to you :-) I am talking to he internet as a whole. There seems to be a feeling that the Veriner scale is more than just a ruler.
[02:02:12] <furrywolf> dunno. I don't work on many that new. :P
[02:02:31] <malcom2073> I just learned how to read a micrometer two weeks ago, they're amazing
[02:02:40] <CaptHindsight> it's magic
[02:03:41] <furrywolf> jdh: most subarus run ~forever with proper maintenance. change your timing belts at 150K. the 2.5L tended to blow head gaskets during the early 2000s, but I think they fixed it by then. not sure.
[02:04:06] <andypugh> You can read a normal wooden ruler to 1/200” or so, as long as what you are measuring has a lne of the same width to compare. And you can only say that is is exactly 1” or it’s bigger or smaller
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[02:04:49] <andypugh> malcom2073: Was that a micrometer with a Vernier?
[02:05:20] <malcom2073> andypugh: I just googled it, and it seems so
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[02:05:27] <malcom2073> Though I didn't realize what they were, so was ignoring them haha
[02:05:36] <andypugh> I once had to use a travelling microscope with a 1/20 mm scale on the Vernier. That was horribly error-prone
[02:05:40] <just_pink_> malcom2073: I dont have micrometer yet..
[02:05:55] <CaptHindsight> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/VernierscaleHow_a_vernier_scale_works.gif/220px-VernierscaleHow_a_vernier_scale_works.gif animated gif
[02:05:58] <XXCoder> just_pink_: get one. trust me
[02:06:42] <andypugh> 12mm and, err, that’s aligned at 6, so that’s 12.6. No, wait, 12.3
[02:07:13] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: were you a door to door scientist back then?
[02:07:34] <just_pink_> yestarday I cut 3 beams of alominum to 0.01 aucrcy..
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[02:07:55] <just_pink_> do you want me to do it to 0.001mm????
[02:08:17] <furrywolf> andypugh: ever notice how bad water is for power steering fluid/atf? just a little bit makes it pink and foamy and noisy. :)
[02:08:19] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: Pretty much. I was swapping university research group every couple of years
[02:08:32] <malcom2073> furrywolf: It's like oil and water :-P
[02:09:06] <furrywolf> malcom2073: no, it's not. water and atf/power steering mix.
[02:09:16] <andypugh> just_pink_: You already did it to 0.00000000001 accuracy, as long as you choose the right target length
[02:09:33] <furrywolf> even if you don't agitate it, such as would be needed to create an emulsion, if you add water to atf, it turns pink.
[02:09:44] <andypugh> Probably a marker
[02:10:08] <andypugh> But I know nothing about ATF. Never had a car, and never worked on an auto
[02:10:50] <malcom2073> Yeah the red is a coloring
[02:11:12] <furrywolf> you've never had a car, or you've never had a car with power steering or an automatic transmission?
[02:11:24] <just_pink_> andypugh: each one cut seperatly.
[02:12:15] <andypugh> furrywolf: I have never owned a car
[02:12:24] <just_pink_> but i clamp all the ends of them to 123 block and compensate it from the length..
[02:13:29] <andypugh> (Cars that I can afford are too slow)
[02:13:44] <furrywolf> don't you work for a car company? I guess you're doing that 55-56-57-58-59 chevy thing, and stealing parts one at a time until you can build one at home? :P
[02:17:19] <andypugh> That’s part of it. If I need a car or a van overnight or for the weekend, I just take one. So why would I bother owning one when I cycle to work and motorcycle for fun?
[02:18:26] <furrywolf> I'm wagering you live close to town and don't have a lifestyle that involves tools or cargo. :)
[02:19:25] <andypugh> I live 5 miles from work. My lifestyle does involve tools, but not ones that would fit in a car
[02:20:46] <furrywolf> heh
[02:21:44] <furrywolf> I have the back of my subaru filled with tools. a reasonably complete set of non-special-purpose mechanic's tools, carpentry tools (including power tools), roadside service (two sets of jumpers, boost box, air compressor, tow straps, lights, etc),...
[02:24:24] <andypugh> Yeah, I just carry a braekdown recovery card and credit card on the bikes.
[02:25:38] <furrywolf> people often call me when things need fixing. :)
[02:25:51] <furrywolf> and I'm working on someone's house right now, hence the carpentry tools.
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[02:26:43] <furrywolf> also, you can fit a lot of things in a car! I had 9 honda generators, including a 6500W and two 3000W, in the back of my subaru a couple months ago... :)
[02:26:48] <furrywolf> didn't even use the front seat.
[02:26:54] <andypugh> If folk know you always have tools you are making a rod for your own back :-)
[02:27:02] <furrywolf> lol
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[02:27:33] <furrywolf> I can't imagine living without a car.
[02:27:55] <XXCoder> neither do I
[02:27:58] <andypugh> It’s easier than you might think.
[02:28:03] <XXCoder> I dont use cars very much but still
[02:28:17] <XXCoder> my work is only 12 miles away which is quite short than average
[02:28:24] <XXCoder> but still too far to bicycle daily
[02:28:49] * furrywolf bets andy doesn't shop at warehouse stores. (costco, big sam's, whatever the .uk equivalent is)
[02:28:57] <LatheBuilder_2> still in the bay area XXCoder? that's a nice short commute
[02:29:07] <andypugh> Aye, I was 14 miles away for a few years. Cycling in, OK. But I would never want to leave to cycle back.
[02:29:13] <XXCoder> tacoma wa, near inlet sea yeah LatheBuilder_2
[02:29:37] <andypugh> I shop for food at Tesco. They deliver.
[02:29:51] <furrywolf> cycling is horrible... not only are you exposed to weather and randomly being killed by cars, you waste way too much time getting anywhere.
[02:30:06] <XXCoder> LatheBuilder_2: old work was 35 miles, and goes south to return home in nasty time (seattle communters returning home from work)
[02:30:20] <andypugh> Well, I do have an R1 too. When I am in a hurry.
[02:30:48] <XXCoder> normal week day 30 minutes to work, return home around 50 minutes. friday return home is 1 to 2 hours lol
[02:30:54] <XXCoder> glad its not anymore
[02:33:35] <LatheBuilder_2> I have a cousin just up the bay from you XXCoder. works at the shipyard
[02:33:52] <XXCoder> cool
[02:34:12] <just_pink_> I'm trying to think aboy taking a dremel and cut the shaft of it to get the place for the coller
[02:34:29] <LatheBuilder_2> He says nice area. Never heard anyone familiar with it disagree
[02:34:33] <just_pink_> but how you fit the bearings on it?
[02:34:53] <XXCoder> LatheBuilder_2: it is beautful place yeah
[02:35:23] <andypugh> just_pink_: On a Dremel you can (on mine, at least) unscrew a collar to reveal a mounting thread
[02:36:40] <LatheBuilder_2> alternately, how about mounting a flex shaft spindle coaxial with yours just_pink_?
[02:36:42] <just_pink_> I mean to buy broken dremel or somthing and cut about 2 inch of the shaft..
[02:38:25] <LatheBuilder_2> thing is, the spindle in a dremel is not awesome. if you wanted to make something better and _just_ what you want you could look at 608Z bearings
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[02:38:41] <XXCoder> theres plenty spindles on aliexpress too
[02:38:43] <LatheBuilder_2> in the US they are common, cheap, and good
[02:38:46] <XXCoder> not too expensive
[02:39:29] <furrywolf> I haven't heard much good about aliexpress spindles. they're just dremels or routers, but made in china, cheaply.
[02:39:34] <andypugh> Going back to the belt-drive thing earlier, in that case it made no sense to use a Dremel as the motor. An RC plane brushless motor would be easier to integrate and more pwerful.
[02:40:05] <LatheBuilder_2> that would be a dandy, and inexpensive too
[02:40:20] <just_pink_> somthing like that http://i.imgur.com/QcU5KFc.png
[02:40:24] <XXCoder> furrywolf: really? there is lot of air and water cooled spindles
[02:40:44] <furrywolf> wouldn't an rc plane brushless motor be yet another power rail you have to provide, and a low-voltage high-amps one too?
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[02:42:05] <andypugh> furrywolf: That’s a point. a 1/2hp conventioanl induction motor driving a spindle held as a tool would probably cause less trouble.
[02:42:29] <LatheBuilder_2> if you were making anything at all you might like the result better if you started with an ER collet extension. Can be had inexpensively and then be used for heavier cuts than a dremel would hold up to
[02:43:04] <andypugh> Yes, I was about to say start at the bearings and move out
[02:44:16] <furrywolf> dremels have very tiny shafts and bearings, for very tiny tools.
[02:44:24] <andypugh> But these things are a really good starting point, and cheap: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271560849987
[02:44:28] <Rab> Some just have bushings.
[02:44:42] <furrywolf> a bushing is a "plain bearing" :P
[02:45:05] <just_pink_> andypugh: and how I'm put the bearings?
[02:45:12] <Rab> just_pink_, I used this to make a spindle: http://item.ebay.com/121450857746
[02:45:18] <just_pink_> what hold tham in place?
[02:45:29] <andypugh> just_pink_: Welll, that’s where some mechanical design is needed
[02:45:32] <Rab> 8mm shaft, 608 bearings just press-fit on.
[02:45:49] <Rab> Plenty of 8mm ID pulleys for belt drive on eBay.
[02:46:09] <Rab> just_pink_, http://reboots.g-cipher.net/spindle/image/8mmspindlediagram.png
[02:46:11] <just_pink_> but the Z axis can press it out.. tou know 1HP servo..
[02:46:13] <LatheBuilder_2> clamp on shaft collars for axial location if you need it
[02:46:16] <bobo_> andypugh: would you reconsider getting the slotter? other uses are -- resetting staples , cracking various food type nuts, puunding very small nails, etc
[02:46:17] <andypugh> Add a thread if there isn’t one. Then two bearings and a spacer
[02:46:35] <andypugh> bobo_: Not at £500 (not this month)
[02:46:37] <furrywolf> I'm thinking of putting on of those harbor freight 60K air die grinders on my shoptask... I think it'll fit through my spindle, then just clamp the body of the tool with a standard collet, and use a length of pipe screwed into the air fitting, with some extra threads on the other end, as a drawbar.
[02:47:20] <furrywolf> leave the main spindle off, of course.
[02:47:34] <just_pink_> furrywolf: noiiiiiiiiiiiis
[02:47:58] <furrywolf> ?
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[02:48:46] <just_pink_> furrywolf: "60K air die grinders" make noiiise like crazy...
[02:49:29] <furrywolf> yes. I've owned a couple.
[02:49:44] <furrywolf> (a couple because even with oiled air, they don't have the greatest life expectancy)
[02:49:50] <andypugh> You adapt, over years. Well, technically it is called “going deaf”
[02:49:58] <XXCoder> random question, any of you made dice with mill? heh
[02:50:14] <XXCoder> andypugh: not worried about that myself. I have been all way deaf since before birth
[02:50:36] <furrywolf> XXCoder: I saw a page about making dice on a mill the other day, but didn't read it.
[02:50:39] <furrywolf> so try google. :)
[02:50:44] <XXCoder> indeed
[02:51:07] * furrywolf has never had a use for dice
[02:51:09] <Rab> just_pink_, building your own spindle just for PCB milling is overkill, unless you want a project. Side and thrust loading are negligible.
[02:51:24] <XXCoder> furrywolf: funny thing, singular name for dice is die
[02:51:33] <Rab> just_pink_, consider a nicer rotary tool: http://www.amazon.com/Proxxon-38481-Professional-Rotary-Tool/dp/B001FWXEO6/
[02:51:35] <XXCoder> most people use dice
[02:51:54] <XXCoder> same as group of crows is murder
[02:52:00] <XXCoder> murder of crows'
[02:52:02] <Rab> Metal collar so you can fix it in place, nice bearings, good runout, steel collets.
[02:52:05] <furrywolf> yes.
[02:52:10] <andypugh> XXCoder: You are (relatively) lucky to live in a world where nearly evrery conversation can be typed.
[02:52:12] <furrywolf> and a gaggle of geese, etc. :P
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[02:52:38] <XXCoder> andypugh: yeah. I'm bit worried about techologies like amazon echo and siri
[02:52:45] <just_pink_> Rab: the whole I dea is to make somthing like that https://origin.ih.constantcontact.com/fs064/1102402694945/img/106.jpg
[02:52:51] <XXCoder> google once revealed they are thinking about no screen device
[02:52:52] <andypugh> furrywolf: “Flange of Gorillas” has an interesting etymology
[02:53:00] <XXCoder> great for blind, not so great for deaf
[02:53:07] <Rab> just_pink_, if you have access to a lathe it'll be easy.
[02:53:14] <andypugh> XXCoder: Siri is no good for me
[02:53:29] <andypugh> People can understand me, computers can’t
[02:53:29] <XXCoder> heh why?
[02:53:41] <XXCoder> andypugh: means you need less accent I guess
[02:53:45] <furrywolf> XXCoder: do you have one of the varieties of deafness that can be worked-around with a cochlear implant? then your google device can talk straight to your brain. :)
[02:53:47] <XXCoder> I sign with little bit of accent
[02:53:51] <andypugh> My accent is not one that they cover
[02:53:54] <XXCoder> furrywolf: well
[02:54:05] <XXCoder> I never grew brain parts for hearing fully
[02:54:07] <just_pink_> Rab: no :( I have a cnc milling machine
[02:54:20] <XXCoder> I will never be able to understand people even if my nerves connections is fixed
[02:54:26] <furrywolf> ah
[02:54:32] <XXCoder> not without HUGE training
[02:54:40] <XXCoder> never 100% or even 50%
[02:58:03] <XXCoder> andypugh: anyway it all works out most times
[02:58:10] <XXCoder> work I use notepad a lot
[02:58:25] <just_pink_> wha is the biggest shank that fit in to e11?
[02:58:25] <XXCoder> sometimes computers when my writing sucks
[02:58:49] <furrywolf> probably around 1/4"
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[02:59:35] <XXCoder> aliexpress er11 sets all are 1 mm to 7 mm
[02:59:36] <furrywolf> since my ER20 set goes up to 1/2". :)
[02:59:43] <Rab> just_pink_, https://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-Collets-ER11-Collets/c21_56_60/index.html
[03:00:11] <Rab> 5/16"
[03:00:37] <andypugh> Or 7mm (cheaper)
[03:00:49] <XXCoder> my grinder router can hold er11 but not too certain if it would hold properly
[03:01:02] <andypugh> That’s odd
[03:01:07] <andypugh> 6
[03:01:13] <just_pink_> there is no 0.8mm or 1/32?
[03:01:22] <andypugh> 5/16 is so close to 8mm
[03:01:23] <furrywolf> there are no tools with 1/32 shanks.
[03:01:35] <Rab> furrywolf, that's a strong statement.
[03:02:00] <Rab> just_pink_, you would want to use .8mm carbide tooling with a 1/8" shank.
[03:02:01] <XXCoder> I have tools thats around 2 mm too bad I has nothing to hold that
[03:02:31] <just_pink_> Rab: they cost 10 time more than 0.8 drill
[03:02:50] <andypugh> Yes, it makes no sense for tiny tools to be tiny all the way up
[03:03:07] <Rab> just_pink_, 0.8mm HSS drill isn't going to last 10% of the lifespan of carbide when drilling PCBs.
[03:03:08] <XXCoder> andypugh: unless its a tool that cannot be regrinded
[03:03:21] <andypugh> XXCoder: ?
[03:03:39] <XXCoder> why waste material on tool that dont last very long
[03:03:47] <XXCoder> so thin all way up
[03:03:50] <just_pink_> Rab: you get 10 drill bits for $1
[03:03:53] <Rab> And used/resharp carbide drills go for $1/ea, sometimes less.
[03:04:30] <LatheBuilder2> used to be able to get surplus packs of tiny carbide drills with 1/8" shanks. regrinds from the pcb industry...maybe still get them somewhere
[03:04:31] <Rab> just_pink_, you'll be changing tools every 100 holes...and the last 25 holes, you'll basically be burning through the board.
[03:04:42] <andypugh> Because there is almost no material in a <1mm tool, and they are terribly fragile if you keep them small all the way to the collet
[03:05:18] <just_pink_> Rab: I've drill 600 holes with the same 0.8 drill bit
[03:05:20] <just_pink_> hss
[03:05:29] <just_pink_> from china
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[03:05:50] <Rab> just_pink_, I cannot argue with your experience, but I can only trust mine.
[03:05:55] <LatheBuilder2> in fr4? circuit board material?
[03:06:16] <furrywolf> all my tiny drill bits have 1/8" shanks.
[03:06:25] <furrywolf> including ones a lot smaller than 1/32".
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[03:07:42] <furrywolf> in industry, as far as I know, all the micro drills and mills have larger shanks.
[03:08:05] <furrywolf> I have probably 150 tiny drill bits with 1/8" shanks, for pcb manufacturing.
[03:08:46] <furrywolf> maybe more. 250? lol
[03:08:59] <furrywolf> trying to remember how many is in some of the boxes I have. :)
[03:09:16] <XXCoder> I should check size of those tools but I dont know where it is now lol
[03:09:18] <Rab> This guy rulez for cheap PCB drills: http://item.ebay.com/381350497698
[03:09:32] <Rab> Unfortunately no 0.8mm in that set, but he's got a lot.
[03:09:36] <just_pink_> Item condition: Used
[03:09:41] <Rab> Good prices on new drills/tooling as well.
[03:09:41] <furrywolf> http://www.harborfreight.com/high-speed-steel-micro-drill-bit-set-30-pc-61526.html is pretty cheap
[03:10:14] <furrywolf> just_pink_: many of the pcb drills available are used. board houses use them until they're dull, then send them off to their supplier who resharpens them.
[03:10:16] <Rab> furrywolf, pure garbage.
[03:10:17] <just_pink_> furrywolf: how do you put sub mm drill in E11 collet??
[03:10:32] <furrywolf> just_pink_: you buy ones with 1/8" shanks like we're talking about.
[03:11:04] <furrywolf> Rab: I haven't bought the HF ones, but looking at them in the store, they look remarkably like resharpened PCB drills, and of the same quality as any other resharpened pcb drills.
[03:11:05] <Rab> I bought that very set. The drills A) don't match the described diameters, B) have off-center points.
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[03:11:08] <just_pink_> going to be expensive...
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[03:11:47] <furrywolf> the set I looked at didn't give sizes, just said assortment. and the packs were all different.
[03:11:50] <Rab> HF do carry actual legit carbide drills: http://www.harborfreight.com/20-pc-carbide-rotary-micro-bit-assorted-set-62379.html
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[03:12:14] <Rab> Unfortunately the sizes truly are random, but if you pick up a few packs you can build a pretty good range.
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[03:12:28] <just_pink_> Rab: i see tham on the store - its look like juuuunk
[03:12:34] <just_pink_> soooo juuunk
[03:12:47] <Rab> Many are too small for typical PCB use.
[03:13:16] <just_pink_> meany are come broken...
[03:14:00] <just_pink_> and meany not even close to ve concentric
[03:15:34] <just_pink_> i need as lot of center drills
[03:15:39] <just_pink_> 5/64..
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[03:16:22] <Rab> just_pink_, brand new, $1.30/ea: http://item.ebay.com/151339409435
[03:16:53] <just_pink_> Rab: you see the problem with the carabide..
[03:17:00] <just_pink_> the sooooo long
[03:17:11] <just_pink_> mean that get broken soo fast
[03:17:31] <just_pink_> for 1.5 mm pcb you neem 2mm drill max!!
[03:17:34] <Rab> Not if you have a decent spindle (i.e. not Dremel).
[03:18:02] <just_pink_> I have
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[03:18:20] <just_pink_> but 2mm vs 10 mm
[03:18:36] <just_pink_> it's 5 times more ronout
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[03:19:29] <just_pink_> with the drills with out the shank I just keep them sort
[03:19:34] <just_pink_> short*
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[03:20:48] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> Rab: I haven't bought the HF ones, but looking at them in the store, they look remarkably like resharpened PCB drills, and of the same quality as any other resharpened pcb drills.
[03:20:49] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> the set I looked at didn't give sizes, just said assortment. and the packs were all different.
[03:21:03] <Rab> furrywolf, the set you linked was HSS.
[03:21:35] <furrywolf> it didn't actually load here. lol
[03:21:41] <furrywolf> must have found the wrong one
[03:21:52] <furrywolf> yeah, wrong set
[03:22:10] <Rab> <Rab> HF do carry actual legit carbide drills:
[03:22:11] <furrywolf> http://www.harborfreight.com/20-pc-carbide-rotary-micro-bit-assorted-set-62379.html
[03:22:11] <Rab> http://www.harborfreight.com/20-pc-carbide-rotary-micro-bit-assorted-set-62379.html
[03:22:16] <Rab> ;)
[03:22:38] <XXCoder> echoooo
[03:23:00] <furrywolf> when I looked at those, they were completely random (they even claimed some were rasps, but looked like endmills), and looked like resharpened pcb surplus.
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[03:23:40] <Rab> I've never found an endmill in those packs, but there have been a few roughing bits.
[03:23:47] <just_pink_> how you can resharpened somthing soo small??
[03:23:51] <Rab> Mostly just drills.
[03:24:04] <furrywolf> just_pink_: how can you sharpen it in the first place? :P
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[03:24:17] <just_pink_> furrywolf: no idea
[03:24:48] <just_pink_> i have 2 center drills broken ;(
[03:25:36] <furrywolf> just_pink_: in any case, those all have 1/8" shanks. this is what industry uses to avoid needing to chuck teeny tiny shafts.
[03:26:40] <just_pink_> furrywolf: http://www.harborfreight.com/center-drill-countersink-set-5-pc-60381.html
[03:26:53] <just_pink_> the smallest on this set
[03:27:21] <just_pink_> it is 1/8 shank but the tip broken
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[03:33:17] <just_pink_> what's wrong with people these days? https://www.adafruit.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/flora_Risa_Rose_Gemma_Hoop_Earrings_Adafruit.jpg
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[03:34:23] <Rab> I know, that Adafruit stuff is way overpriced even for jewelry.
[03:35:23] * furrywolf doesn't like jewelry
[03:35:45] <furrywolf> that's fucking hideous.
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[03:36:33] <XXCoder> I dont wear any either
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[03:36:47] <XXCoder> even if I loved em.. I find that one to be really ugly
[03:36:57] <XXCoder> I love leds but that is just.. yeah bad lol
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[03:38:04] <just_pink_> http://mikeshouts.com/inecklace-because-there-are-apple-fangirls-too-video/
[03:38:10] <just_pink_> this is cute..
[03:38:26] <XXCoder> so, press it to turn her on :P
[03:38:27] <just_pink_> but shuld be pink led
[03:39:00] <just_pink_> so, press it to turn her OFF
[03:39:20] <furrywolf> I have some pink LEDs. I even used one on my milling machine. but I still don't like jewelry. :P
[03:39:42] <just_pink_> I'm sure this is what my husband will say
[03:39:45] <just_pink_> furrywolf: what??
[03:39:53] <XXCoder> plenty of jokes there pink.
[03:39:54] <just_pink_> PICS!!!!
[03:39:57] <XXCoder> so many.
[03:40:27] <Rab> The code in those isn't very good: http://www.garlicsoftware.com/articles/files/0662584a661f5b1cdb84dc2c17935537-1.php
[03:40:50] <furrywolf> heh, nothing fancy. I put it with a resistor on the big capacitor in the power supply (the bigger-than-a-soda-can one) to warn you it hasn't discharged yet.
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[03:41:54] <just_pink_> furrywolf: I'm ating for the pics of the pink leds..
[03:42:07] <furrywolf> more if a things-are-still-live warning than anything else, since it's inside the enclosure.
[03:42:26] <just_pink_> i think 1 transistor can do it.
[03:42:49] <furrywolf> I don't have any pics. it's with my mill, and that's in storake.
[03:42:51] <furrywolf> storage
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[03:43:16] <furrywolf> it's just dangling on some wires on top of the big capacitor.
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[03:47:46] <just_pink_> furrywolf: why your mill in storage?
[03:48:19] <just_pink_> I have the last 30 LEDs to solder...
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[03:53:57] <furrywolf> because it doesn't fit in my living room.
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[03:58:30] <just_pink_> furrywolf: hope It will not rust..
[03:58:49] <just_pink_> keep it oily
[03:58:55] <furrywolf> it's covered in way too much oil to rust. :P
[03:59:11] <pcw_home> better oily that late
[03:59:44] <just_pink_> but from time to time you need to renew it..
[03:59:56] <LatheBuilder2> ugh. mandatory good bad pun acknowledgement
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[04:00:12] <LatheBuilder2> =)
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[04:01:04] <just_pink_> 28 left
[04:01:11] <LatheBuilder2> I have a friend that will wait weeks for the right moment to drop a pun. His are always perfectly timed too, and out of the blue
[04:02:07] * furrywolf doesn't get the pun
[04:02:34] <LatheBuilder2> better early than late. better oilly than late
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[04:04:06] <LatheBuilder2> g'nite
[04:04:10] <Rab> Better oil that lathe?
[04:04:11] <furrywolf> cyas
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[04:08:24] <bobo_> zeeshan|2: are you aruond ?
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[04:09:48] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[04:10:47] <bobo_> nite nite
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[04:21:53] <just_pink_> someone know about good compass?
[04:22:32] <XXCoder> for what use? camping?
[04:23:58] <just_pink_> tool...
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[04:25:09] <XXCoder> oh
[04:25:13] <just_pink_> XXCoder: pair of compasses
[04:25:43] <just_pink_> the 2 metal bars...'
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[04:53:19] <zeeshan|2> now i am
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[04:55:31] <just_pink_> ??
[04:55:46] <renesis> doesnt furrywolf have a sherline?
[04:56:26] <renesis> how does that not fit into a living room, i fit a micromill into a bedroom
[04:56:51] <just_pink_> sherline is tiny
[04:56:53] <renesis> cat slept under it, like no kitty there is slag sometimes, but kitty does what it wanted
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[04:58:27] <renesis> heh, i moved that mill in the trunk of my volvo 740, just loosened the column and laid flat, folded up the legs of the table it was bolted to, threw it in
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[04:58:55] <renesis> in the scion hatchback its stupid easy to move, <3 taig tinymill
[05:00:16] <just_pink_> the g0704 was come in tons of part to the place that I mount it
[05:02:30] <renesis> you need to try that sentence again
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[05:03:11] <just_pink_> renesis: you know about good pair of compasses?
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[05:03:45] <renesis> for like, making circle scribes?
[05:04:04] <just_pink_> yes
[05:04:34] <just_pink_> i try one from a dollar store
[05:04:38] <just_pink_> JUNK
[05:05:02] <just_pink_> than i try metal ones from walmart - JUNK
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[05:05:21] <XXCoder> walmart IS junk
[05:05:41] <just_pink_> i can spend days in walmart.
[05:05:53] <renesis> go to an art and engineering supply store
[05:06:23] <Mr_Sheesh> or a college bookstore
[05:06:41] <renesis> they usually have the best drafting stuff, office supply places might have something better than walmart and dollar store
[05:07:02] <XXCoder> or college that has art courses
[05:07:16] <renesis> prob more spendy
[05:07:19] <XXCoder> yes
[05:07:59] <just_pink_> mm what about link to some high quality brand?
[05:08:27] <just_pink_> go to a store it's so 20 century
[05:08:38] <renesis> http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-Precision-Student-Comfort-Compass/dp/B0006VZDKU/ref=lp_1069030_1_4?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1439010499&sr=1-4
[05:08:53] <renesis> their white erasers are the best, shrug
[05:09:48] <just_pink_> i have the pink easer of paper mate
[05:09:54] <just_pink_> the best ever!
[05:10:16] <renesis> i dont like pink =\
[05:10:19] <renesis> http://www.amazon.com/Staedtler-Compass-Storage-559-09/dp/B0006VRJHA/ref=lp_1069030_1_14?s=office-products&ie=UTF8&qid=1439010499&sr=1-14
[05:11:13] <renesis> i dont even know how to use that shit, super advanced compass set
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[05:13:46] <just_pink_> i'm use it to do drafting sketches. and i'm using the scriber to use the stock material bette.
[05:15:38] <just_pink_> what is this thing???
[05:15:40] <just_pink_> http://www.starrett.com/metrology/metrology-products/precision-measuring-tools/machinists-precision-shop-tools/Jack-Screws#currentPage=1&displayMode=grid&itemsPerPage=24&sortBy=wp/asc
[05:16:34] <renesis> http://www.amazon.com/%C2%BD-Divider-Compass-Adjustable-Caliper/dp/B00VUFYFAU/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1439010897&sr=8-5&keywords=machinist+compass
[05:16:44] <renesis> ^ prob better for scribing
[05:17:30] <renesis> just_pink_: little jacks for setup and inspection fixtures?
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[05:18:12] <just_pink_> renesis: intrastin
[05:19:46] <just_pink_> *interesting
[05:19:56] <just_pink_> 1am
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[05:24:39] <just_pink_> 20 leds left
[05:27:01] just_pink_ is now known as just_pink
[05:27:34] just_pink is now known as tests111
[05:28:51] tests111 is now known as just_pink
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[06:03:53] <just_pink> so quiet here
[06:04:19] <zeeshan|2> working :-)
[06:04:25] <just_pink> on?
[06:04:34] <zeeshan|2> job
[06:04:35] <zeeshan|2> cam
[06:04:46] <XXCoder> shhhh
[06:05:07] <just_pink> hehe
[06:05:27] <just_pink> i just finish anather ring
[06:05:50] <just_pink> now I'm starting the last one
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[06:05:57] <XXCoder> awesome
[06:06:00] <zeeshan|2> what ring
[06:06:28] <just_pink> LEDs ring..
[06:06:34] <just_pink> for the stack light..
[06:06:41] <just_pink> it use 18 rings
[06:06:42] <zeeshan|2> =P
[06:06:53] <just_pink> 180 leds
[06:08:19] <just_pink> XXCoder: what's going on with your machine?
[06:08:41] <XXCoder> not moving. lol bit sick
[06:08:49] <just_pink> why?
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[06:09:51] <XXCoder> germs I guess? lol
[06:10:26] <just_pink> lol
[06:11:40] <just_pink> I mean if you sick you are at home = you have time to do your projerts :)
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[06:14:52] <gkwhc> say, if you had access to a mid/large industrial grade CNC machine, what would you make?
[06:15:08] <XXCoder> just_pink: not when dizzy
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[06:15:23] <XXCoder> gkwhc: depends on type
[06:15:31] <XXCoder> router can do stuff mill cant for examplke
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[06:16:03] <just_pink> like what...
[06:16:08] <just_pink> .......
[06:16:28] <archivist> large sheet
[06:16:41] <just_pink> router can make also noise
[06:17:14] <mutley> and its a beautiful sunrise
[06:17:21] <XXCoder> just_pink: router is pretty primariarly for 2d projects but tend to have much bigger work space in X, Y than mills
[06:17:27] <XXCoder> usually short on Z
[06:17:32] <mutley> but wtf am i doing seeing it
[06:18:44] <just_pink> errr.. now i can do new door on my G0704..
[06:19:10] <just_pink> cant**
[06:19:30] <mutley> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDxhugRKZ8g
[06:20:24] <just_pink> mutley: point?
[06:20:52] <mutley> just_pink: no point, just a groove
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[06:21:35] <just_pink> 1963...
[06:21:44] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/6BGiPSi.png
[06:21:48] <zeeshan|2> long live mastercam
[06:21:56] <zeeshan|2> 20 min job
[06:22:01] <zeeshan|2> to cam that
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[06:23:23] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: what is that?
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[06:23:30] <zeeshan|2> not sure
[06:23:39] <zeeshan|2> looks like some hub
[06:23:51] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: and how to you know what is the ecomended feed rate to each tool?
[06:23:55] <gkwhc> XXCoder: hm i thought they can pretty much do the same things
[06:24:04] <XXCoder> gkwhc: sure
[06:24:07] <just_pink> and how much material to take..
[06:24:09] <zeeshan|2> just_pink: manufacture spec sheets is a good start
[06:24:14] <XXCoder> BIG router can mill a motor block
[06:24:15] <zeeshan|2> for all that info
[06:24:20] <XXCoder> but why? mill can do it better
[06:24:33] <zeeshan|2> just_pink: what kind of end mill do you have?
[06:24:38] <zeeshan|2> what brand
[06:24:40] <XXCoder> most mills cannot mill 4'x8' sheet
[06:24:45] <XXCoder> but good sized routers can
[06:24:59] <XXCoder> it comes down to what its best for.
[06:25:00] <just_pink> cheap grizzlly
[06:26:31] <gkwhc> XXCoder: true. most industrial machines like these (http://www.automation-drive.com/EX/05-14-14/Quaser_Milling_Vmc_CNC_Machine.jpg) are mills right?
[06:26:38] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: http://www.grizzly.com/products/20-pc-2-4-Flute-TiN-End-Mill-Set/G9760
[06:26:42] <XXCoder> gkwhc: yeah
[06:26:47] <zeeshan|2> just_pink: cant help you there =/
[06:27:01] <gkwhc> they can do a whole lot
[06:27:21] <XXCoder> good luck fitting 4'x8' sheet in that though lol
[06:28:00] <gkwhc> my friend has access to one and we can't think of anything to mill
[06:28:01] <zeeshan|2> just_pink: manufacturers that make high quality tools will have info like this:
[06:28:02] <zeeshan|2> http://www2.coromant.sandvik.com/coromant/pdf/CoroKey_2006/eng/Page153_155.pdf
[06:28:28] <zeeshan|2> if you look at page 1 it tells you depending on what inserrt size you have
[06:28:32] <XXCoder> gkwhc: well
[06:28:39] <zeeshan|2> you can take 10mm depth of cut for example
[06:28:39] <XXCoder> maybe just design fun stuff
[06:28:45] <zeeshan|2> @ 0.6mm / tooth
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[06:28:50] <XXCoder> like a stirling motor lol (always wanted one dammit)
[06:28:54] <zeeshan|2> it goes mor einto detail in the second page
[06:29:01] <zeeshan|2> and tells you recommended cutting speed
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[06:30:33] <gkwhc> seems like those big boys are used for making airplane parts or other machine parts lol
[06:31:14] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: but 3/8 generic hss 2 flute end mill on aluminum..
[06:31:30] <zeeshan|2> a number that works for me for hss
[06:31:31] <XXCoder> gkwhc: yeah
[06:31:32] <zeeshan|2> is 250 sfm
[06:31:40] <zeeshan|2> sfm = surface feet per minute
[06:32:00] <zeeshan|2> and 0.002 inch per tooth feed
[06:32:02] <XXCoder> gkwhc: it is pretty amazing how large percent parts the company I work at make for boeing
[06:32:10] <XXCoder> 85% if I recall
[06:32:12] <zeeshan|2> to convert that to machine numbers you use these formulas:
[06:32:40] <just_pink> ?
[06:32:42] <zeeshan|2> rpm = 4 *cutting speed / diameter of tool = 4 * 250 / (3/8) = 2666 rpm
[06:33:09] <gkwhc> XXCoder: oh wow thats quite a big part of the business then
[06:33:19] <just_pink> zeeshan|2: i can go up to 1000 rpm
[06:33:37] <gkwhc> XXCoder: what kind of parts do you guys make, if you dont mind me asking?
[06:33:42] <XXCoder> yeah. I dunno where other 15% is. I have worked on non-boeing parts only once
[06:33:52] <archivist> I make small parts
[06:33:55] <XXCoder> lol lots cheap parts actually. im still new
[06:33:57] <zeeshan|2> feed = # of teeth * rpm * feed per tooth = 2 * 2666 * 0.002 = 10.6 inches per minute
[06:34:11] <zeeshan|2> just_pink: that is fine, that means you're just not running at the ideal sfm
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[06:34:15] <zeeshan|2> its not a big deal with hss,
[06:34:18] <zeeshan|2> but a big deal with carbide
[06:34:32] <gkwhc> XXCoder: like boxes? lol
[06:34:34] <archivist> gkwhc, http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG
[06:34:43] <XXCoder> gkwhc: nah, like hose guide
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[06:34:51] <XXCoder> end caps
[06:34:54] <XXCoder> so on
[06:36:17] <just_pink> archivist: you and your big giant matchstick..
[06:36:27] <gkwhc> XXCoder: oh interesting. you'd think Boeing would have capabilities to do it themselves lol
[06:36:35] <XXCoder> gkwhc: they do. easily.
[06:36:44] <XXCoder> gkwhc: but there is 35 million parts per plane
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[06:37:00] <XXCoder> gkwhc: they really need to farm out easier to make parts
[06:37:26] <XXCoder> 35 million is rough guess, I know its in quite large number of millions
[06:38:01] <gkwhc> good point
[06:38:08] <just_pink> I'm hungry
[06:39:00] <just_pink> i need a gcode that make food
[06:39:16] <XXCoder> there is food 3d printers out there
[06:39:19] <XXCoder> candyfab for one
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[06:39:40] <archivist> or a slave
[06:40:42] <XXCoder> found one site, 777 has 3 million parts
[06:40:57] <XXCoder> thats only one model
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[06:42:24] <just_pink> XXCoder: but some of tham are of the shelf like fastners, cables.. etc..
[06:42:42] <XXCoder> just_pink: surpising we make nuts for em too
[06:43:01] <XXCoder> some of... odd sized ones but there is many standard looking ones too
[06:43:27] <just_pink> why????
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[06:43:46] <XXCoder> specific material needs. cant say more
[06:43:50] <XXCoder> other needs too
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[06:45:28] <just_pink> XXCoder: there is no of the shelf parts in 777???????
[06:45:38] <XXCoder> actually didnt say that
[06:45:54] <XXCoder> just said there is suprising seemly standard parts that we make for em
[06:46:04] <XXCoder> tons unique parts of course but nuts too
[06:46:41] <XXCoder> if they need completely standard steel nut for example
[06:46:46] <XXCoder> it IS probably off the shelf
[06:46:49] <just_pink> but if the nut is from specials material it's not standart..
[06:46:56] <XXCoder> yeah
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[06:47:57] <just_pink> I goning to put some water for pasta :)
[06:49:48] <just_pink> back..
[06:50:42] <XXCoder> so wheres my pasta
[06:51:39] <just_pink> wating to the water..
[06:51:51] <XXCoder> lol
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[06:54:15] <just_pink> SpeedEvil: somthing wrong with your connectin..
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[06:56:03] <Deejay> moin
[06:56:27] <just_pink> moring!
[06:57:36] <Deejay> +n
[06:57:39] <Deejay> hi just_pink
[06:58:20] <just_pink> I'm working on the last ring for the stack light
[07:00:27] <just_pink> 3
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[07:09:17] <just_pink> XXCoder: PASTA!
[07:09:27] <XXCoder> lol
[07:09:31] <just_pink> hot
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[07:11:31] <archivist> pasta la vista baby
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[07:12:36] <just_pink> hehe
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[07:31:44] <fenn> hmm using ER11 straight shank collet chuck as a high speed spindle is an intriguing idea
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[07:32:38] <fenn> and it scales to different sizes
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[07:35:11] <fenn> i was thinking about using a dewalt DWP611 router but then i'd also have to buy collets for it and it's noisy
[07:35:56] <just_pink> fenn: I want it for small jobs..
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[07:44:06] <archivist> fenn, http://www.raynerd.co.uk/?p=1562
[07:44:40] <fenn> archivist: that's awesome
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[07:45:12] <archivist> and simple
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[07:45:24] <fenn> and pink :P
[07:48:54] <just_pink> where i ccan get the parts?
[07:49:57] <archivist> ebay
[07:50:33] <just_pink> i dont know what to loking for..
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[07:50:57] <just_pink> and how you take the motor apart..
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[07:51:46] <archivist> it is something you learn by doing, if you break one use another
[07:52:14] <fenn> first search result on ebay for "er16 8mm shank" http://www.ebay.com/itm/ER16-8MM-STRAIGHT-SHANK-COLLET-CHUCK-CNC-MILLING-LATHE-TOOL-WORKHOLDING-F88-/151760376048
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[07:54:35] <just_pink> why he use washers?
[07:54:54] <fenn> i don't know much about brushless airplane motors but this looks like it might work http://www.ebay.com/itm/560kv-Brushless-Outrunner-Motor-w-8mm-prop-adapter-for-large-55-Python-Airplane-/311399351561
[07:55:25] <fenn> they are spring washers, it's like a stiff spring
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[07:56:31] <just_pink> why you need it in the spindle..
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[07:57:09] <archivist> force the bearings to a known state, no play
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[07:58:22] <fenn> the spindle will heat up and expand in operation. if you didn't have a spring it would either break the bearings from too much force, or loosen when the spindle cooled down
[07:58:50] <fenn> i guess
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[07:59:24] <just_pink> it's not make it much more noisy?
[07:59:27] <fenn> i could see 1 or 2 spring washers but i think 8 is too many
[08:00:30] <archivist> those are very hight rate springs, you need more to reduce the rate
[08:01:28] <fenn> but there is like 16mm of travel
[08:01:31] <just_pink> what about somthing like that http://i.imgur.com/QcU5KFc.png
[08:01:38] <archivist> exceedingly small travel per spring, I have a thing here with about 40 on it
[08:02:34] <archivist> fenn they never squash flat, only a few thou at most per spring
[08:03:22] <fenn> just_pink: yeah that's the same general idea we are talking about now, but the motor is mounted directly to the shaft so you don't need separate bearings and a coupler
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[08:03:50] <fenn> i would use a timing belt instead of a coupler
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[08:04:58] <just_pink> fenn: but i want to mount it to R8 holder
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[08:07:01] <fenn> then you definitely need a timing belt to get the rpm high enough
[08:07:25] <fenn> or some kind of gearing or belts or a friction wheel
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[08:08:55] <just_pink> fenn: but with the correct motor I will get enough rpm drirect drive..
[08:10:10] <fenn> oh i thought you meant driving it from the milling machine spindle
[08:10:22] <just_pink> no..
[08:11:22] <just_pink> fenn: http://www.airturbinetools.com/spindles/specs/602js.html
[08:11:28] <just_pink> but electric
[08:12:12] <archivist> balancing becomes very important at high speeds
[08:13:18] <fenn> i wonder is there some pre-made auto balancing ring with loose ball bearings and thick oil inside
[08:13:26] <fenn> like in a tumble clothes dryer
[08:13:44] <archivist> look at what the homebrew model jet engine makers use to balance their turbines
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[08:15:23] <just_pink> archivist: do you have an idea?
[08:16:13] <just_pink> how to make a hosing for the bearings
[08:16:31] <archivist> turn on a lathe
[08:17:24] <just_pink> no lathe :(
[08:17:43] <archivist> that is your next project then :)
[08:18:01] <archivist> make lathe then anything
[08:18:45] <just_pink> http://www.grizzly.com/products/4-x-6-Micro-Metal-Lathe/G0745
[08:18:45] <XXCoder> I once read that once you has lathe you can make everytjing else
[08:18:59] <XXCoder> dunno if true
[08:19:01] <fenn> it's a cute story but not really true
[08:19:21] <just_pink> what do you mean?
[08:19:24] <fenn> the idea is that a lathe can bore its own headstock and thus bootstrap from crude bearings to precision bearings
[08:19:37] <XXCoder> 350 bucks not bad
[08:20:12] <fenn> but you still have to actually build everything the hard way, and if you're building from commonly available parts you'd be better off starting with a horizontal mill and pretend it's a lathe
[08:20:30] <XXCoder> fenn: interesting
[08:20:49] <archivist> or get a second hand industrial lathe
[08:20:55] <XXCoder> I also found a page where you can build really shitty lathe with drill, then use shitty lathe to make good one
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[08:21:04] <XXCoder> but I never could find it since
[08:21:12] * fenn built a lathe from scratch
[08:21:20] <XXCoder> using a lathe?
[08:21:30] <fenn> using a drill press and back yard foundry
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[08:21:41] <XXCoder> interesting
[08:21:54] <archivist> I made my mill from an old lathe
[08:22:00] <XXCoder> there is a project to make lathe out of 80/20
[08:22:12] <XXCoder> not large one
[08:22:15] <fenn> dumb
[08:22:21] * fenn hates 80/20
[08:22:31] <fenn> get a tube of structural steel
[08:23:13] <archivist> extrusions are not flat or straight unless machined
[08:23:32] <fenn> also in the end it's aluminum, which is not very stiff
[08:23:57] <XXCoder> yeah if I recall guy said it was good for wood and alum only
[08:24:03] <XXCoder> steel would probably twist it a little
[08:25:00] <archivist> stiffness comes from shape and form, often these extrusion designs are just wrong
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[08:28:29] <just_pink> 18 rings! DONE!!
[08:29:04] <XXCoder> way to go
[08:29:22] <XXCoder> archivist: one site claims their design for 8020 cnc router can mill steel
[08:29:30] <XXCoder> it does look tough but I has doubts
[08:29:49] <fenn> need more parameters. a dremel can "mill steel"
[08:29:49] <just_pink> now i'm working on conneting the 6 red ring together
[08:30:00] <XXCoder> http://www.8020cnc.com/build%20CNC%20machine
[08:30:03] <archivist> if the frame has the correct form
[08:31:02] <XXCoder> check out that link archivist
[08:31:25] <archivist> must try harder :)
[08:31:51] <XXCoder> I dont really like that design
[08:31:57] <XXCoder> I like other one 3'x4' one
[08:31:59] <fenn> i could understand if 80/20 were cheaper, but you can just buy an actual machine tool for less than the price of materials
[08:32:02] <archivist> yet another wood router design
[08:32:14] <XXCoder> fenn: exactly why I went for chinese router
[08:32:31] <XXCoder> 8020 is cheap if you live NEAR source
[08:32:39] <XXCoder> shipping is killer otherwise
[08:32:41] <fenn> i think it's expensive everywhere
[08:33:15] <XXCoder> for example 2020 80/20 10 feet is around $150 or so? but shipping is $200+
[08:33:17] <archivist> I use solid aluminium not extrusion
[08:33:54] <XXCoder> umm
[08:34:01] <XXCoder> seems amazon ones are on sale or something
[08:34:09] <XXCoder> hold on
[08:34:09] <just_pink> XXCoder: I get my from fastenal
[08:34:44] <XXCoder> knew it, yeah still quite high $148 bucks for 3030 97"
[08:35:01] <fenn> 2020 is tiny
[08:35:06] <XXCoder> $43 shipping I guess I misremembered or something
[08:35:15] <XXCoder> fenn yeah but I know even tinier ones lol
[08:35:32] <fenn> oh i see some people refer to 2"x2" as 2020 and some people refer to 20mm x 20mm as 2020
[08:36:08] <XXCoder> look at series, 10 series is inch
[08:36:12] <XXCoder> 15 series is 1.5 inch
[08:36:17] <XXCoder> 30 series is 30 mm
[08:36:37] <fenn> no comment
[08:37:10] <XXCoder> finally found it
[08:37:12] <XXCoder> http://www.nanobeam.us/
[08:37:35] <fenn> millibeam
[08:37:36] <XXCoder> archivist: you probably can build cnc mill to make your gears with those.
[08:37:39] <XXCoder> so small.
[08:37:43] <just_pink> https://www.fastenal.com/products/raw-materials/extruded-t-slot-bars-accessories/extruded-t-slot-bars?term=80%2F20&sortby=wholesaleprice&sortdir=ascending&r=~|categoryl1:%22600930%20Raw%20Materials%22|~%20~|categoryl2:%22602694%20Extruded%20T-Slot%20Bars%209and%20Accessories%22|~%20~|categoryl3:%22602693%20Extruded%20T-Slot%20Bars%22|~%20~|attrlength:999999999|~%20~|sattr01:^30mm$|~
[08:38:10] <just_pink> 58.21
[08:38:15] <XXCoder> just_pink: think your url is so long it got cut off
[08:38:22] <just_pink> with tax 60..
[08:38:25] <XXCoder> use url shortener like goo.gl
[08:38:54] <just_pink> https://goo.gl/exGrNk
[08:39:25] <XXCoder> 4 meters thats oretty dang long
[08:39:29] <archivist> XXCoder, could but would not
[08:39:39] <XXCoder> lol
[08:39:54] <archivist> I prefer the structure to be iron
[08:40:13] <XXCoder> too bad nobody makes iron versions of those.
[08:40:13] <just_pink> XXCoder: go with granit
[08:40:19] <XXCoder> extrusion iron
[08:40:37] <archivist> make the right shape castings
[08:40:39] <XXCoder> I do want to buy those nano stuff but only for fun not machinist stuff
[08:41:25] <just_pink> http://www.grizzly.com/products/9-x-12-x-2-Granite-Surface-Plate-No-Ledge/G9649
[08:41:41] <just_pink> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0Cn0WRXPKs
[08:42:10] <fenn> tapping holes just doesn't seem difficult enough to justify all the compromises t-slot introduces to the design
[08:42:56] <XXCoder> just_pink: there is guides on how to make your own epoxy granite using home improvement store stuff
[08:43:06] <XXCoder> only part thats hard and expensive is epoxy itself
[08:43:10] <fenn> if you're super anti-tapping you can glue nuts to the inside of the structural tubing
[08:43:18] <XXCoder> awesome video though
[08:43:34] <just_pink> scroll to 6:50
[08:43:44] <XXCoder> nah watching entire video lol
[08:44:25] <just_pink> hehe..
[08:44:36] <XXCoder> 2 old guys in arpons
[08:44:49] <XXCoder> is film silent?
[08:45:06] <fenn> yes it's silent, with classical music
[08:45:13] <XXCoder> no wonder no autocaption
[08:45:25] <fenn> those guys already have all the nice toys, it's unfair
[08:45:50] <just_pink> XXCoder: just regular cnc porn..
[08:46:09] <XXCoder> fenn: yeah its hard to bootstrip out of zero machines
[08:46:32] <XXCoder> easy, good, cheap
[08:46:34] <XXCoder> choose 2
[08:47:25] <XXCoder> I do like watching people ply their skill
[08:47:34] <just_pink> my first cnc was..
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[08:48:03] <just_pink> to embeasing..
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[08:48:43] <XXCoder> well irc law states you must show it now
[08:48:47] -!- SpeedEvil [SpeedEvil!~quassel@tor/regular/SpeedEvil] has joined #linuxcnc
[08:48:47] <XXCoder> heh kidding
[08:48:56] <fenn> heh i have downloaded that to a folder named "machine porn"
[08:48:59] <just_pink> ok
[08:49:07] <just_pink> it is junk
[08:49:18] <just_pink> glue with jb weld
[08:49:35] <just_pink> also some soldering
[08:50:04] <XXCoder> it worked eh?
[08:50:57] <just_pink> mmm this is good question..
[08:51:02] <XXCoder> small Surface is surpising cheap
[08:51:07] <just_pink> it's moved..
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[08:53:54] <just_pink> 3 rings connected
[08:54:02] <just_pink> 3 more to compleat
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[08:56:35] <fenn> some pictures of my scratch-built lathe: (click on links) http://fennetic.net/gingery/lathe_modifications.html
[08:56:58] <just_pink> 4
[08:57:29] <just_pink> fenn: no pics - so 1997
[08:57:38] <fenn> more like 2007
[08:57:52] <XXCoder> 90s called
[08:57:56] <fenn> kodak digital camera
[08:57:58] <XXCoder> they like the site
[08:58:02] <just_pink> 2007 you had pics..
[08:58:40] <XXCoder> welcome to pre-html http://fennetic.net/gingery/lathe_parts.html
[08:58:42] <XXCoder> heh
[08:59:10] <fenn> i just noticed that, not sure what went wrong there
[08:59:19] <fenn> it's exported from a spreadsheet
[08:59:39] <archivist> wrong bear http://fennetic.net/gingery/whitworth.html
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[09:01:08] <XXCoder> site is hard to read
[09:01:26] -!- SpeedEvil [SpeedEvil!~quassel@tor/regular/SpeedEvil] has joined #linuxcnc
[09:01:28] <XXCoder> I know youre not a web monkey
[09:01:35] <XXCoder> but you probably can polish site a little
[09:01:36] <fenn> i am a web monkey
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[09:01:43] <XXCoder> bit of formatting
[09:01:44] <fenn> it's abandoned :P
[09:01:48] <XXCoder> ah
[09:02:36] <fenn> my web host doesn't want me running php because of security vulnerabilities so i scraped it with wget and can't really modify it now
[09:03:36] <fenn> also i don't have a shop or tools atm so that's a higher priority
[09:03:52] * fenn wastes more time on irc...
[09:04:13] <just_pink> last ring
[09:04:34] <fenn> why do people hate plain html so much
[09:04:42] <fenn> it works, it's fast, it's accessible
[09:04:48] <XXCoder> fenn: I dont hate it
[09:04:55] <archivist> nothinh wrong with html or php
[09:05:23] <archivist> my php produces html :)
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[09:07:35] <fenn> your php html preprocessor preprocesses html from php?
[09:07:37] <XXCoder> my html produces php
[09:07:48] <XXCoder> and my php produces web server
[09:07:58] <archivist> the blanket blaming of "any language" for security problems is also a mistake
[09:08:15] <fenn> no, php is especially bad about security and deserves the blame
[09:08:48] <archivist> the idiots using it incorrectly are to blame not the language
[09:10:30] <fenn> lately i have been using ikiwiki which is a web-editable git repository that generates static html when you git push to it
[09:10:56] <fenn> it defaults to using markdown which i have mixed feelings about
[09:11:50] <just_pink> DONE
[09:12:37] <just_pink> so annoying project
[09:13:51] <fenn> just_pink: now you should make a stack light for the linuxcnc buildbot so the devs know when their code failed to compile
[09:14:09] <just_pink> no
[09:14:28] <XXCoder> lol
[09:14:44] <just_pink> I'm not shure yeh how to nount it on the machine..
[09:14:59] <fenn> on the outside of the enclosure
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[09:15:18] <XXCoder> below spindle
[09:15:31] <XXCoder> better: right on stock
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[09:15:36] <XXCoder> heh kidding
[09:15:41] <just_pink> what?
[09:15:42] <Sync_> fenn: why use a timing belt
[09:15:45] <Sync_> they only are noisy
[09:15:47] <just_pink> LOL
[09:15:54] <Sync_> use a multi v belt
[09:16:00] <fenn> timing belts are more efficient
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[09:16:43] <fenn> i didn't think about noise from the timing belt...
[09:19:18] <fenn> i don't know how to search for small multi-v belts
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[09:20:57] <Sync_> fenn: why do you think a timing belt is more efficient?
[09:21:32] <fenn> because there is no friction from the belt wedging into and out of a tapered groove
[09:21:48] <Sync_> in most applications V and synchronous are about the same
[09:22:20] <Sync_> V does slip, yes, but it is not less efficient
[09:22:33] <fenn> "V-belt drive achieves a maximum efficiency of 94% and falls off slightly at high torques with a dramatic decline at low torques. In contrast, the synchronous belt offers a uniform efficiency of almost 98% over a broad range of torque values."
[09:22:46] <fenn> so it probably doesn't matter in this case
[09:22:49] <Sync_> http://www.clark-transmission.com/images/pdf/carlisle/energy_loss_and_belt_efficiency.pdf
[09:22:55] <Sync_> look at the tables with real world values
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[12:16:03] <fenn> combine wax and LDPE to make machinable wax, stores and handles better because higher tensile strength and melting point
[12:17:01] <fenn> if you combine two food grade materials they're still food grade, right?
[12:18:08] <archivist> possibly not
[12:18:12] <fenn> shh
[12:18:22] <archivist> chemistry can be strange
[12:20:52] <CaptHindsight> machinable fruit, not so much at 20 C, but much more easily at ~0 C
[12:21:07] <CaptHindsight> same for dairy
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[12:24:59] <CaptHindsight> then there is also additive manufacturing that requires some binder like carrageenan or gelatin to hold it together (dependent on serving temp) vs clever cutting and milling of raw product
[12:28:48] <CaptHindsight> sounds trivial at fist but when you're limited to approved food or food contact materials it's not so simple
[12:30:52] <CaptHindsight> and with additive all the materials that contact food have to meet guberment specs
[12:31:04] <malcom2073> It still weirds me out that butchers use bandsaws
[12:32:20] <CaptHindsight> nobody like my idea of cow shaped burgers
[12:32:44] <malcom2073> Remember those fake rib shaped patties of meat?
[12:32:50] <malcom2073> People totally love shaped meat
[12:33:10] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: did you see the video of the robot lamb processing plant?
[12:33:23] <malcom2073> Hah no
[12:33:58] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZIv6WtSF9I
[12:34:10] <CaptHindsight> Scott - Automated Lamb Boning System 2011
[12:34:13] <malcom2073> I just can't see robots being able to be as efficient as humans at getting all the meat
[12:34:30] <CaptHindsight> what Skynet would do with us
[12:34:59] <CaptHindsight> if there was a market for human on some other planet
[12:36:38] <fenn> malcom2073: did you see my suggestions regarding your belt drive design
[12:36:46] <malcom2073> Oh I did not, where?
[12:36:58] <fenn> i'll just repeat then
[12:37:25] <fenn> the loop of belt can't be vertical because the side to side movement of the timing pulley won't cause the belt to lengthen
[12:38:11] <fenn> also you should lower the timing pulley to minimize the length of belt under tension
[12:38:21] <malcom2073> fenn: You talking about this: http://mikesshop.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/DriveSystem.png ?
[12:38:28] <fenn> your gear reduction pulley can hang off the side of the tubing
[12:38:37] <fenn> yes that's what i'm talking about
[12:39:17] <malcom2073> Alright yeah, I do need the timing pully to be much closer, as close as possible I would assume
[12:39:33] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: is the system open or closed loop?
[12:39:37] <malcom2073> What do you mean abou the side to side movement?
[12:39:49] <archivist> not supposed to be any loop/freedom in a timing belt
[12:39:52] <fenn> the loop of belt has to make a triangle
[12:40:04] <fenn> archivist look at the picture
[12:40:10] <archivist> seen it
[12:40:25] <archivist> it is not "loose"
[12:40:53] <malcom2073> Yeah I can see the benefit of having the timing pully as low as possible
[12:40:53] <malcom2073> less stretch length
[12:41:01] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Unknown, probably steppers though
[12:41:03] <archivist> it it was that would introduce backlash
[12:42:33] <malcom2073> Still unsure what you mean by the loop needing to be not vertical?
[12:42:46] <fenn> the sides of the triangle are tangent to the timing pulley and tangent to the bearings pushing the belt down
[12:43:02] <fenn> you have no triangle so the effective tension on the belt is infinite
[12:43:02] <malcom2073> Right
[12:43:09] <fenn> like plucking a guitar string
[12:43:57] <fenn> or is it zero, hrm
[12:44:03] <CaptHindsight> whats the accuracy and repeatability required for the system?
[12:44:22] <CaptHindsight> whats the travel of that axis?
[12:44:36] * archivist watched fenn work it out :)
[12:45:05] <malcom2073> fenn: Right, yeah the whole idea is that the teeth meshing makes the tensioned section as small as possible, having it tall like that would be counter productive
[12:45:09] <archivist> the adjustment of the position is what matters, use a spring
[12:45:13] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Travel is 10ft, accuracy and repeatability is.... meh
[12:45:21] <CaptHindsight> oh o, cringeworthy?
[12:45:34] <malcom2073> archivist: Bingo, I have a tensioner design
[12:45:34] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Not really, but it's a router
[12:45:35] <archivist> more that a chalk mark
[12:46:13] <malcom2073> Wood and aluminum, so only less than the thermal stretch of a 10ft piece of aluminum :P
[12:46:18] <malcom2073> and wood for that matter
[12:46:31] <Sync_> malcom2073: efficiency is not the thing, you don't need skilled labor
[12:47:49] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: is the movement continuous in one direction while scanning or will it randomly move + - ?
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[12:48:51] <archivist> make melt tensioner force> cutting force by some sensible amount
[12:48:54] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: It's a router, so whatever the design requires. Typically random movements +/-
[12:49:30] <archivist> one bother sides?
[12:49:34] <archivist> both
[12:49:36] <malcom2073> Yeah
[12:50:44] <CaptHindsight> huh, steaks like leather max out at about 2 meters since the raw material only naturally grows to that length
[12:50:47] <malcom2073> I redid the gantry, so I need to redo the drive system to suit it and post up some new pictures, I'll address the belt length issue and make it a triangle with the tensioner
[12:50:54] <malcom2073> True, no skilled labor is nice
[12:52:47] <CaptHindsight> define this skilled labor you speak of :)
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[12:53:33] <Loetmichel> and the meat left on the bones can be scraped off by wire brushes and used as "pressed meat patties" or for sausage.
[12:53:40] <malcom2073> Whatever knd is required tocut up meat? I dunno haha
[12:53:41] <Loetmichel> so not wasted either
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[12:54:46] <CaptHindsight> has opposable thumbs?
[12:55:05] <CaptHindsight> can work at the DMV? ??
[12:55:33] <Loetmichel> malcom2073: to be a butcher? quite a lot of experience AND dextirety (hows that spelled again?)
[12:56:09] <archivist> Loetmichel, I think they use high pressure water for the pink slime residue :)
[12:56:49] <Loetmichel> archivist: tha'll work even better than wire brushes ;)
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[12:58:02] <archivist> actually centrifugal force https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_slime
[13:10:01] <CaptHindsight> machining fruit cheaply and quickly is another challenge
[13:10:27] <ChuangTzu> those old school apple peelers are pretty cool
[13:13:54] <fenn> waterjet apple/lamb peelers
[13:14:10] <fenn> it's how they make "baby carrots"
[13:16:39] <Sync_> malcom2073: it is the number 1 cost issue in a slaughterhouse
[13:26:59] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZIv6WtSF9I
[13:27:03] <SpeedEvil> Lamb boning system
[13:27:24] <SpeedEvil> X-ray tomography, laser-scanning, and then basically 'normal' industrial robots and bandsaws and stuff
[13:28:51] <CaptHindsight> Square watermelons why not other square fruits? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2JNSpMhJLvg
[13:29:55] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: Oooh
[13:30:03] <SpeedEvil> I have both apples and gooseberries growing now
[13:30:16] <SpeedEvil> The question is - can I be arsed to find suitable 'molds'
[13:30:33] <CaptHindsight> worth a try?
[13:31:17] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: you could corner the world on square apples
[13:31:32] <SpeedEvil> :)
[13:32:35] <CaptHindsight> rectangular bananas could be another gold mine
[13:34:29] <tjtr33> japanese plant bondage, meh! its time to go
[13:34:32] <CaptHindsight> never machined an apple or banana, I wonder if <0 C or ~1-2 C is best?
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[13:50:12] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6znCnsP9P4Y Mantis Machine 9 milling a face out of 72% dark chocolate
[13:51:13] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e74SfHRjKiw Chocolatier with CNC machine
[13:57:05] <CaptHindsight> and maybe vacuum forming of PP molds for high volume food applications
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[13:58:16] <fenn> what if you just had a zillion pins each of which you could control the height, then vacuum formed on top of that
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[13:58:47] <CaptHindsight> if you can lock the pins
[13:59:35] <CaptHindsight> comes down to how many copies you need and how fast
[13:59:58] <CaptHindsight> wax vs PP molds, SLA vs machining, etc
[14:01:01] <fenn> 1 copy as fast as possible
[14:01:12] <fenn> i would guess SLA is fastest but not sure
[14:02:06] <CaptHindsight> I'm just looking at low budget techniques for low volume (1-1000) custom-ish food products
[14:02:29] <CaptHindsight> and idiot proof as possible
[14:05:20] <CaptHindsight> machining food safe materials vs 3DP and vacuum forming or additional patter mold steps to make it safe
[14:05:37] <CaptHindsight> patter/pattern
[14:06:43] <fenn> 3d printing with oxygen-assisted UV cure http://youtu.be/UpH1zhUQY0c
[14:07:26] <fenn> the print rate is independent of the volume being solidified so you could nest faces pretty close together
[14:08:45] <fenn> something like 7 minutes to do a dozen 50mm molds
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[14:10:27] <fenn> this process requires exotic oxygen-permeable transparent materials, but maybe in a few years there will be a DIY version
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[14:13:43] <Deejay> re
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[15:47:31] <zeeshan> 100 thou doc
[15:47:33] <zeeshan> then 5 thou doc?
[15:47:38] <zeeshan> good for milling? :P
[15:47:49] <archivist> depends!
[15:48:01] <zeeshan> on
[15:49:15] <archivist> cutter and job stiffness and material and voodoo
[15:49:24] <zeeshan> all stiff
[15:49:31] <zeeshan> its a 3/4 indexable end mill
[15:49:33] <zeeshan> apx3000ur
[15:49:39] <zeeshan> and mild steel
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[15:51:41] <ganzuul> Do any milling beds/vices/chucks sense force and react accordingly?
[15:52:07] <zeeshan> ganzuul: very common to see that on production lines
[15:52:34] <zeeshan> kistler makes a tool dyno
[15:52:44] <zeeshan> http://www.kistler.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_935-569_Typ9171A_Hoch_204b145929.gif
[15:52:49] <zeeshan> data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxQSEhQUExQWFhUXGBUXGRgYGBQXFxwZFxcXFxgdHBkYHCggGBwlHBQUITEhJSkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OFxAQGiwdHxwyLC0sLCwsLDYsLCw3LDcrLC8sLCw3LCwsLCwsKywsLC0sLC0tLDQsLC0sLyw3LCw3LP/AABEIAMkA+wMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAEAAgMBAQEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAwUCBAYBBwj/xABAEAACAQIEAwUFBgQFAwUAAAABAgADEQQSITEFQVEGMmFxkRMigaGxQlKiwdHwIzNi4TRykrLxFCSCBxVDU8L/xAAZAQEBAQEBAQAAA
[15:52:50] <zeeshan> er
[15:52:54] <zeeshan> https://www.hofstragroup.com/media/product_images/productimage-picture-kistler-9257b-triaxial-force-sensor-load-cell-2508.jpg
[15:53:01] <ganzuul> \o/
[15:53:04] <archivist> some machine tools sense the servo and therefore know the cutter conditions
[15:53:07] <zeeshan> and a thing you can mount under your vice
[15:53:27] <zeeshan> servo doesn't resolve the 3 components of force though
[15:54:01] <zeeshan> kistler is crazy
[15:54:18] <zeeshan> say you a force at some arbritary angle hitting their sensor
[15:54:22] <zeeshan> it resolves it into x y z components
[15:54:32] <archivist> most force measuring involves some movement, servo current is a total power
[15:54:56] <zeeshan> http://www.kistler.com/fileadmin/_processed_/csm_935-094_web_16-9_ad80f7a264.jpg kistler in use
[15:55:03] <ganzuul> Strain gauges are cheap and accurate though...
[15:55:11] <zeeshan> ganzuul: youre not understanding me :p
[15:55:33] <ganzuul> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/The-strain-gauge-pressure-sensor-for-high-precision-resistor-load-cell-electronic-scale-sensor-1KG-2KG/1649072013.html
[15:55:44] <archivist> I have a couple of Kistler amps
[15:56:04] <zeeshan> how are you going to resolve the forces to radial , feed and cutting forces?
[15:56:29] <ganzuul> I figure, you could make climb and conventional milling cut just as deep with this?
[15:56:35] <zeeshan> you'd need to make a pretty elaborate setup with strain gauges
[15:56:45] <ganzuul> hmm
[15:57:04] <zeeshan> i can't remember from class
[15:57:20] <zeeshan> but i think when your tool wears out
[15:57:27] <zeeshan> it first shows up in the cutting force component
[15:58:21] <archivist> hence the servo current on the spindle
[15:58:56] <zeeshan> archivist: i asked that specific quesiton
[15:59:03] <zeeshan> to the prof, monitoring servo, spindle current
[15:59:11] <zeeshan> but he gave me an answer saying why that is not the greatest way to do it
[15:59:20] <zeeshan> and i have it written down somewhere other than my brain :(
[15:59:30] <ganzuul> aww
[15:59:54] <archivist> what in dynamic RAM ?
[16:00:21] <ganzuul> What about capacitive sensing between the tool and the workpiece? Anybody doing that?
[16:00:36] <pcw_home> if you use torque mode servos you could integrate the total work done for a specific job
[16:00:56] <archivist> it is in contact, no capacitance when milling
[16:01:42] <ganzuul> You would be able to tell exactly when capacitance goes to 0.
[16:02:17] <archivist> there can be no capacitance in contact
[16:02:26] <archivist> it is a short
[16:02:40] <pcw_home> well there is but its hard to measure :-)
[16:03:30] <ganzuul> Yes, I am quite familiar with it. The benefit here would be knowing when the tool isn't in contact with the work piece and when it is.
[16:04:23] <archivist> like the self capacitance of an inductor, makes no sense in a cutting environment, too many chips shorting the cutter too
[16:04:47] <pcw_home> Spindle load will also tell you that (though a bit more slowly)
[16:04:49] <ganzuul> hmm
[16:05:46] <pcw_home> or sound (spindle mounted accelerometer?)
[16:06:16] <archivist> the piezo measurement kistler is doing is direct force to voltage
[16:06:25] <zeeshan> http://www.sv-jme.eu/data/upload/2011/02/07_2010_079_Cus.pdf
[16:06:31] <zeeshan> figure 4
[16:06:50] <zeeshan> ther eis a distinct signature y ou can pick up in the cutting (thrust) force
[16:07:00] <ganzuul> I figure, you could also know when you are milling your vice/chuck/fasteners
[16:07:00] <zeeshan> for say a chipped tool
[16:07:25] <zeeshan> and you can use that profile to predict flankwear
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[16:08:36] <zeeshan> http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.15.9092&rep=rep1&type=pdf
[16:08:43] <furrywolf> the time to avoid milling your vise is before the program starts, not after. :)
[16:08:49] <zeeshan> i don't know why he said its not ideal to use spindle current
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[16:09:10] <zeeshan> but these guys show clearly you can use spindle current and feed current for a simple drilling process
[16:09:11] <pcw_home> not ideal but a lot cheaper
[16:09:20] <pcw_home> sure
[16:09:30] <zeeshan> i think the area i see it being a problem is
[16:09:48] <zeeshan> actually nm
[16:09:50] <ganzuul> furrywolf: I hear it's easily a $60,000 USD mistake, so might be worth a bit of insurance.
[16:10:14] <furrywolf> ganzuul: your vise has a couple more zeros than our vises. :P
[16:10:14] <zeeshan> pcw_home: forgot why its not ideal
[16:10:28] <zeeshan> there is a good reason why kistler overtook the competition
[16:10:32] <pcw_home> a spindle microphone would probably be a good addition to the fuzzy logic input set
[16:11:11] <ganzuul> furrywolf: In this scenario the tool holder was damaged.
[16:12:00] <zeeshan> file:///C:/Users/zeeshan/Downloads/MNSMS20120200003_98300264.pdf
[16:12:03] <zeeshan> figure 6 and 7
[16:12:07] <zeeshan> that really shows it well
[16:12:14] <furrywolf> I don't see how you'd reliably tell vise from workpiece anyway, if you're machining anything with similar properties to steel, which is often most of the time.
[16:12:21] <zeeshan> just changing spindle speed effects spindle current (not sure what was going on in the other paper)
[16:12:38] * furrywolf hax0rs zee's computer to get the file
[16:12:44] <zeeshan> whoops
[16:13:04] <zeeshan> https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjACahUKEwjWlrCc75nHAhWLXpIKHQeBADE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.scirp.org%2Fjournal%2FPaperDownload.aspx%3FpaperID%3D18405&ei=SinGVdbJGou9yQSHgoKIAw&usg=AFQjCNHtsqpCq7jaKRXWtZgJtRgTxhaKcQ&bvm=bv.99804247,d.aWw
[16:13:43] <zeeshan> i think its harder to detect w/ spindle current
[16:14:00] <ganzuul> I think the continous time Markov Chain method would suffice for most of the DSP issues we're dealing with there. Those are the algorithms which detect which state an analog process is in.
[16:14:21] <zeeshan> cause you could be at say 400 rpm using a worn tool and you wouldn't know
[16:14:26] <zeeshan> cause most of the machining was done at 2000 rpm
[16:14:32] <zeeshan> prolly have to develop some relationships
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[16:14:52] <ganzuul> furrywolf: Put some POM between the vice and the workpiece?
[16:14:52] <zeeshan> with force measurement you could just monitor the abrupt change in response
[16:14:53] <pcw_home> Sure but the total work could be used for tool wear detection
[16:15:24] <zeeshan> you mean power right?
[16:15:26] <pcw_home> not as fast but better trend data
[16:16:16] * zeeshan thinks linuxcnc needs some servo motor info :D
[16:16:19] <pcw_home> no, work
[16:17:04] <pcw_home> integrate the total spindle work between specific waypoints in the job
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[16:17:46] <ganzuul> ...Capacitance will tell you if you are close to danger. - Not if you have already messed up.
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[16:18:18] <zeeshan> these methods predict tool failure
[16:18:26] <ganzuul> hmm
[16:18:31] <zeeshan> by observing trends
[16:18:51] <zeeshan> i think the cutting force one was nice because you have analytical models based on material paramters
[16:18:59] <zeeshan> that you can always compare with your measured cutting force
[16:19:25] <pcw_home> this is something you could try now if your modbus interface returns the spindle current
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[16:19:39] <zeeshan> so you could be machining a piece of aluminum at 2000 rpm and 0.01 ipt , and machining steel at 2000rpm
[16:19:44] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i have them displaying
[16:19:58] <zeeshan> but i never logged it
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[16:20:18] <zeeshan> like im watching spindle current , and the tool has already snapped
[16:20:23] <zeeshan> and i dont register anything on the current
[16:20:37] <zeeshan> but i havent run it for detecting wear
[16:20:37] <archivist> low/high current from norm
[16:21:10] <zeeshan> i should output it into a txt file
[16:21:24] <zeeshan> and when the next tool snaps, seee if it showed up
[16:21:30] <pcw_home> for repetitive jobs, you could record the total spindle work for the job and then compare with subsequent jobs
[16:21:32] <ganzuul> Are tools designed to snap before they damage the tool holder?
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[16:21:42] <archivist> no
[16:21:48] <ganzuul> \o/
[16:21:53] <ganzuul> Dat dumb!
[16:21:55] <zeeshan> ganzuul: tool is a lot smaller
[16:21:59] <zeeshan> than the holder, itll snap before
[16:22:14] <ganzuul> I mean, engineered weakness.
[16:22:22] <zeeshan> no :P
[16:22:29] <zeeshan> its inherent to them because of the flutes
[16:22:30] <ffurrywol> tool holders should be designed not to snap before the tool. :P
[16:22:40] <archivist> not if within normal cutting force it will just chew through
[16:23:46] <archivist> any fusible point would make chattering almost a certainty
[16:23:49] <zeeshan> archivist: you quickly figure out that your tool holder can be a good burnishing tool!
[16:23:49] <zeeshan> :D
[16:24:09] <Sync_> zeeshan: I think spindle torque is too insensitive
[16:24:32] <archivist> seen enough vice damage to think the tool wins
[16:24:34] <Sync_> the force platform provides a lot more resolution
[16:24:47] <zeeshan> sync lets verify your point
[16:25:06] <zeeshan> figure 7 in that pdf
[16:25:19] <zeeshan> 250mA difference
[16:25:38] <zeeshan> you need to resolve in like 25 mA to get decent values
[16:25:39] <ganzuul> archivist: The vices in the shop class of the school I went to looked like the surface of the moon.
[16:26:12] <zeeshan> very first pdf i posted , figure 4
[16:26:20] <Sync_> that is turning, where you can actually get constant torque
[16:26:36] <Sync_> with milling I'd suppose the torque observer would have not enough bandwidth
[16:26:49] <zeeshan> cutting force fluctuates between 200 to 400 N normally, but 500 to 100 N and has a distinct profile
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[16:28:05] <zeeshan> that figure shows the whole tool brekaage process varying th e force happens in 1ms
[16:28:05] <zeeshan> haha
[16:29:31] <Sync_> it is simply unrealistic to get such a high resolution torque measurement from a servo without a load cell
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[16:30:24] <zeeshan> i did this one lab in undergrade
[16:30:29] <zeeshan> where we had an electric motor dyno
[16:30:44] <zeeshan> we monitored its current and stuff to get data
[16:30:52] <ganzuul> ...I think IC Hall sensors should have low enough hysteresis to provide good bandwidth.
[16:30:58] <zeeshan> but the motor base also had a load cell arm on it
[16:31:04] <zeeshan> and motor was coupled to a brake
[16:31:08] <zeeshan> we were comparing all the things
[16:31:12] <zeeshan> i remember there being differences :)
[16:31:12] <Sync_> measuring the current is not the issue ganzuul
[16:31:18] <ganzuul> oh
[16:31:28] <Sync_> but deriving torque current from it
[16:31:42] <archivist> the mass of the motor swamps the effects seen
[16:32:15] <zeeshan> youre basically saying that the motor mount be using in real life 10A of current
[16:32:29] <zeeshan> but the magnitude of the tool wear is like 25 mA
[16:32:31] <archivist> so the current will only show an average and delayed compared to a more direct method
[16:33:00] <Sync_> and also deriving torque from torqeue current is
[16:33:20] <zeeshan> but couldn't you easily mount a load cell on the specific axis
[16:33:50] <zeeshan> i was thinking keeping the motor housing floating
[16:33:53] <archivist> but an average can be good enough to measure a process
[16:33:55] <zeeshan> buit that'd introduce backlash int othe system
[16:34:21] <archivist> another one of those "depends"
[16:34:28] <ffurrywol> build strain gauges into the tool, with a pair for each carbide insert. :P
[16:34:59] <archivist> 4 in a bridge per tooth
[16:36:54] <ganzuul> Not sure if plain old PZT will stand up to that.
[16:38:03] <ganzuul> Then again there are those things Dan Gelbart talked about. Flextures.
[16:39:29] <archivist> everything flexes with some force, some devices have a point where that flex is meant to be
[16:39:51] <archivist> or constrains the flex direction
[16:39:57] <zeeshan> or you can buy a kistler
[16:40:00] <zeeshan> and call it a day
[16:40:01] <zeeshan> :]
[16:40:15] <archivist> that is costly I bet
[16:40:34] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kistler-9121-Dynamometer-System-Triaxial-Load-Cell-Force-Sensor-Lathe-Piezo-/161709433931?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a6a2244b
[16:40:38] <zeeshan> only 19k
[16:40:54] <zeeshan> theres another one for 9k
[16:40:55] <zeeshan> haha
[16:41:14] <zeeshan> its quite hard to diy their design tool
[16:41:18] <pcw_home> for tool breakage, detection, high bandwidth force detection is needed, but probably overkill for wear detection
[16:41:23] <archivist> somewhat beyond my paygrade
[16:41:28] <zeeshan> bastards grow crystals a certain way
[16:41:43] <zeeshan> to output voltage to specific orientation of force only
[16:42:27] <archivist> use 3 bits of ordinary crystal and calibrate
[16:42:34] <pcw_home> just how the PZT is oriented when its charged
[16:45:33] <Sync_> zeeshan: I suppose you could fit a strain gauge onto the spindle
[16:45:40] <Sync_> but that would interfere with packaging
[16:46:33] <ganzuul> The way you cut the crystal also matters.
[16:47:18] <ganzuul> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhhsusoj1kk
[16:48:04] * Loetmichel managed to let a big westinghouse fan fall on my hand while mounting it on the ceiling... left thumb getting bigger and bigger now :-(
[16:48:58] <ganzuul> :(
[16:49:00] <Tom_itx> for tool breakage measure spindle current
[16:49:21] <Tom_itx> sample the normal tool load for a particular tool
[16:49:40] <ffurrywol> when something is too large, you hit it with a hammer and pound it smaller.
[16:49:47] <ffurrywol> should work on fingers too, right?
[16:50:14] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, aren't you past your growth years?
[16:51:21] <Tom_itx> spindle current would work unless you're on a lead in or lead out move
[16:52:56] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: groth years?
[16:53:27] <ffurrywol> Tom_itx: that's easy. have your CAM software generate expected tool loadings for the entire program, and compare to those. :P
[16:55:09] <Sync_> growing quartz is also quite annoying, the chemistry has to be right and it takes a lot of energy
[16:56:25] <ganzuul> ffurrywol: Isn't that exactly what HSM/dynamic/torochidal/chip thinning does?
[16:56:37] ffurrywol is now known as furrywolf
[16:56:39] <ganzuul> I mean, generate
[16:57:00] <furrywolf> dunno. I can't even manage to find working cam software. heh.
[16:58:24] <LatheBuilder_2> jthornton: a trick to getting print carts back to life - soak a paper towel with Windex, let the carts sit jets down on it. Only thing that reliably fixed my Epson print head (built in to printer)
[17:00:26] <PetefromTn_> It is my strongly held belief that personal printers and print cartridges are the biggest scam unleashed onto the people of the world!
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[17:02:19] <LatheBuilder_2> Not that I completely disagree, but I think the lottery has to have that slot. Also, get a laser printer and it is a new world.
[17:03:12] <archivist> cartridge prices for lasers is an exceedingly close runner up
[17:03:15] <cradek> I use my laser printer for one page maybe once a month, and it always works perfectly, and the cartridge may last the rest of my life
[17:03:38] <LatheBuilder_2> it just sits there for months, wakes up instantly to print, goes back to sleep when it isn't necessary. do I date myself if I make a halo reference?
[17:03:39] <cradek> it's a 10 year old discard from an office
[17:04:06] <PetefromTn_> until the drum wiper blade sticks and wipes out the drum
[17:04:31] <archivist> if you print off a few manuals you soon notice the similarity in pricing :)
[17:04:36] <cradek> inkjet printers are like razors - things suckers think they need :-)
[17:05:14] <cradek> (I think disposable razor blades are the predecessor of the inkjet cartridge scam)
[17:05:35] <archivist> blame Gillette !
[17:05:58] <cradek> now people fall for it with coffee pods too
[17:06:10] <archivist> and tea bags
[17:06:16] <cradek> well the machine still costs $100 I guess
[17:06:18] <ganzuul> Razor blades separate atomic bonds. They're not like other types of cutlery.
[17:06:22] <cradek> some things I don't understand
[17:06:32] <LatheBuilder_2> ever own a lexmark inkjet? by comparison an HP d1606 is free for life.
[17:06:34] <pcw_home> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-z5ND69WUzkA/VOkHUauMJcI/AAAAAAAATRU/VKvO3K4jSpo/s1600/Screenshot%2B2015-02-21%2B14.24.12.png
[17:07:12] <LatheBuilder_2> thanks peter, now my family is wondering why daddy is laughing uncontrollably
[17:07:24] <cradek> pcw_home: I don't get it
[17:07:57] <Sync_> LatheBuilder_2: if you bought a lexmark you have lost control over your life
[17:09:23] <LatheBuilder_2> true story: tax day many years back. needed to print my taxes to mail (yeah that many years ago). A relative offered to sell me a lexmark with its starter carts for less than a set for the good one I had.
[17:10:11] <LatheBuilder_2> $20 for a new lexmark and I still think i overpayed, but it did at least print that one job before it died.
[17:10:16] <cradek> didn't you have a selectric?
[17:10:59] <LatheBuilder_2> grin. i did have one as a kid, but it was from an auction...i'm 38.
[17:12:01] <PetefromTn_> I have had about a dozen different printers from all manufacturers and have yet to find one that lasted more than a year or two let alone be worth the money invested. Nowadays if I really need something printed I run to staples LOL
[17:12:06] <CaptHindsight> fenn,
[17:13:18] <ganzuul> 2nd hand office laser printers can be really good.
[17:14:18] <CaptHindsight> fenn: the problem is that you need to use components either approved for food contact or use the SLA patterns to make some thing that is made of approved food contact materials
[17:14:59] <cradek> ganzuul: I've had 2 in 20? years
[17:16:37] <LatheBuilder_2> CaptHindsight: how about hot wax spray into glass bead bed, layer 3dp shell molds. beads and glass sterile of course
[17:17:38] <LatheBuilder_2> perhaps multi head so layer build isn't so gruelling
[17:19:58] <LatheBuilder_2> maybe 100 micron sized glass beads
[17:21:04] <CaptHindsight> powdered glass bed?
[17:21:19] <ganzuul> cradek: I got something like 5000 pages out of one.
[17:23:12] <LatheBuilder_2> yes, but round glass beads. They are made for several industries but bead blasting comes to mind. I have a drum of beads for blasting, finer than sand but uniform round beads. would spread nicely...
[17:23:22] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: the problem I see there is keeping the glass beads out of the wax
[17:24:35] <LatheBuilder_2> think zcorp type print head, wax just hot enough to jet. solidifies quickly after contact with glass bead layer.
[17:24:51] <LatheBuilder_2> point is to let it wet the beads
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[17:26:05] <CaptHindsight> inkjet is out unless I use SS head
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[17:26:22] <LatheBuilder_2> but avoid having to print the whole interior volume. printing shell only means relatively fast builds. Make the shell thick enough to be self supporting in a bead bed.
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[17:26:32] <CaptHindsight> they make them but they are too slow
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[17:27:04] <LatheBuilder_2> epson head with heated reservoir. carefull control on temp
[17:27:07] <LatheBuilder_2> ?
[17:27:18] <CaptHindsight> can't use Epsons
[17:27:29] <LatheBuilder_2> licensing? or clog
[17:27:51] <CaptHindsight> the 3D systems heads and similar are Xerox heads
[17:28:21] <sector_0> Hey guys, I want to install linuxcnc on a CPU i have lying around but I don't have a spare monitor...
[17:28:27] <sector_0> is there any way to work around this?
[17:28:40] <sector_0> Can I stream the output to another computer?
[17:29:16] <Tom_itx> borrow a monitor then once installed run it headless
[17:29:33] <Tom_itx> my server has no kbd or monityr
[17:29:47] <sector_0> Tom_itx, headless?
[17:29:50] <Tom_itx> just an etehrnet connection
[17:29:53] <Tom_itx> ^^^
[17:29:55] -!- gkwhc [gkwhc!~gkwhc@unaffiliated/gkwhc] has parted #linuxcnc
[17:29:58] <Tom_itx> headless
[17:30:05] <Jymmm> powerless too!
[17:30:15] <sector_0> I kinda assume that wasn't possible
[17:30:41] <sector_0> I might sound like an idiot...but isn't the interface gui driven?
[17:30:51] <Jymmm> remote desktop
[17:31:02] <ganzuul> IIRC most distros disable UART TTY these days be default, but you can probably find a distro which has it on.
[17:31:28] <Jymmm> hard to find a serial port than remote tty =)
[17:31:34] <Jymmm> hearder^
[17:31:34] <LatheBuilder_2> CaptHindsight: seems like a feature, not bug. http://www.xerox.com/innovation/news-stories/solid-ink/enus.html
[17:31:43] <Jymmm> harder^
[17:31:49] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: Epson heads are designed for low viscosity fluids, 3-7cps, are without heaters and don't have circulation
[17:32:11] <ganzuul> Jymmm: There are usually headers right on the mobo!
[17:32:39] <sector_0> Tom_itx, I can understand a server where most actions are done through terminal via commands, but cnc linuxcnc work like that as well?
[17:32:46] <sector_0> ...i've actually never used it
[17:32:54] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: the Xerox heads are not approved for food contact
[17:32:55] <Jymmm> ganzuul: but how many actually have the ribbon cable to plug into it ;)
[17:33:04] <Tom_itx> i wouldn't do it that way personally
[17:33:21] <ganzuul> Jymmm: You just need two wires.
[17:33:34] <ganzuul> ...Don't ask me how I know this.
[17:33:42] <ganzuul> I have been naughty. <.<
[17:33:55] <Jymmm> TMI
[17:34:21] <LatheBuilder_2> is it a quick stitch together project, or r&d tolerable if promising?
[17:34:34] <ganzuul> I also apply thermal grease to my CPUs in the nude, to avoid static discharge.
[17:35:19] * Jymmm grabs the stun gun...
[17:35:32] <PetefromTn_> WOW
[17:35:39] <sector_0> Tom_itx, but it linuxcnc still a capable OS?
[17:35:40] <ganzuul> Don't hit my server!
[17:35:54] <sector_0> can I install a remote desktop system like vnc?
[17:35:56] <Tom_itx> linuxcnc isn't an OS at all
[17:36:18] <Tom_itx> it runs on several like ubuntu, debian etc
[17:36:45] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: sort run (1-1000) custom food products. Mold-able, cast-able foods
[17:37:05] <sector_0> Tom_itx, so linuxcnc is a program essentially?
[17:37:16] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[17:37:54] <sector_0> so when I download the liveCD what i'm downloading it ubuntu(or another distro) with the program pre-installed on that OS?
[17:38:10] <sector_0> s/it/is
[17:38:27] <CaptHindsight> sector_0: there is an installation and demo disk that comes with the whole OS and applications for you to try
[17:38:30] <LatheBuilder_2> sector_0 yes
[17:39:02] <sector_0> hmm
[17:40:12] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: the constraints are having to work with only "foods" or approved food contact materials
[17:40:37] <ganzuul> ED: Three wires. One for ground. UART does no statistics on its 1s and 0s.
[17:40:46] <sector_0> Ok I know that the kernel in these distros are tailored with special features that make them suitable for CNC machinery...but can the linuxcnc program be run on a regular distro?
[17:41:27] <CaptHindsight> sector_0: you have to make a real time kernel to do that
[17:41:43] <ganzuul> The kernels are all realtime.
[17:41:49] <Tom_itx> sector_0, no
[17:41:52] <ganzuul> You add an option to your grub conf.
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[17:42:19] <Tom_itx> if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be trying to build one
[17:42:34] <pcw_home> You can run linuxcnc on a standard linux installation but only in simulator (sim) mode
[17:42:53] <sector_0> Tom_itx, build what?
[17:43:00] <Tom_itx> the OS
[17:43:01] <LatheBuilder_2> CaptHindsight: ever see an airless paint sprayer in action? how about a micro version. same fan spray but tiny enough to not disturb bead bed. could be all stainless
[17:43:02] <pcw_home> not for running a real machine (but good for testing and learning)
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[17:43:47] <sector_0> The reason I asked is because I have a small Cartesian robot that I'd would like the test
[17:43:57] <sector_0> basically ensure that it's movements are on point
[17:44:22] <LatheBuilder_2> single orifice nozzle, but orientable so fan pattern traces perimeter of shell mold.
[17:45:10] <LatheBuilder_2> feed line would have to recirculate to keep gradient down
[17:45:15] <ganzuul> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ah9kLdUFDQY
[17:45:15] <ganzuul> Thermal Spray Technology.mov
[17:45:38] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder_2: what made the pattern in the bead bed?
[17:46:01] <ganzuul> Also, you get to weild a legit plasma pistol.
[17:47:24] <LatheBuilder_2> 2d cartesian positionable nozzle. 3rd ("C") axis orients nozzle. 4th dof is build plate with spreader head
[17:49:07] <ganzuul> ...might be thermal spraying surfaces won't be okay for food stuff since they leave porosities...
[17:50:26] <CaptHindsight> you still need make the patterns, this just fills or coats a mold or pattern
[17:50:37] <LatheBuilder_2> the trick is guaranteeing complete evacuation of the loose beads inside shell. leave some in you get crunchy chocolates.
[17:51:08] <LatheBuilder_2> this builds the mold in situ.
[17:51:38] <CaptHindsight> I must ave missed a step then
[17:51:48] <LatheBuilder_2> "airless" nozzle replaces xerox print head.
[17:52:33] <LatheBuilder_2> step one: position build platform one layer down from nozzle contact. nozzle parked in corner. spread layer of glass beads.
[17:53:36] <LatheBuilder_2> 2) nozzle comes out of park position once spreader is clear. sprays lowermost thin slice of the mold profile in bead bed.
[17:54:37] <LatheBuilder_2> 3) back to park. 4) spread new layer 5) repeat 2,3,4 untill shell complete with pouring sprues/runners designed in to mold.
[17:55:27] <CaptHindsight> I follow you now
[17:55:30] <LatheBuilder_2> 6) vacuum evacuate loose bead fill material from inside of mold. 7) flow through release agent if necessary
[17:56:00] <LatheBuilder_2> 8) low pressure inject molten edibles
[17:57:20] <LatheBuilder_2> i've been slowly working on a version using a low temp metal alloy instead of food.
[17:59:17] <CaptHindsight> vs milling bakers wax
[17:59:58] <ganzuul> Do you break the mold, or open it at a seam?
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[18:02:38] <LatheBuilder2> right. for block type shapes, subtractive faster. for relief portraits of the whole family in edible chocolates, tips toward 3dp shell molds
[18:03:30] <LatheBuilder2> ganzuul: depends on whether casting flash is acceptable
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[18:07:01] <LatheBuilder2> CaptHindsight: what resolution features do you have in mind?
[18:08:26] <CaptHindsight> not much, just a reasonable facsimile, better than FDM
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[18:09:34] <CaptHindsight> or about the same if you can polish it quickly and easily
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[18:12:04] <LatheBuilder2> hmmm. instead of glass beads >> powdered starch. food safe to start with. Small inclusions don't chip teeth
[18:12:29] <CaptHindsight> LatheBuilder2: this started out as how to make 100 custom gummy bears of a single scan
[18:13:04] <CaptHindsight> the glass beads were out :)
[18:13:31] <LatheBuilder2> interesting. iirc gummy bears are poured in pressed starch molds already
[18:13:48] <CaptHindsight> yes
[18:13:51] <LatheBuilder2> =)
[18:16:34] <CaptHindsight> one pattern can make 100 corn starch molds in 2 minutes, figuring if it's done manually
[18:17:31] <CaptHindsight> patterns say 1" dia and under, 1/4" thick
[18:18:42] <PetefromTn_> you still makin gummy bears man?
[18:19:01] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: runin the numbers
[18:19:24] <LatheBuilder2> ok. how about a close packed pin bed with a silicone shell over it. like a miniature relief map covered with a smoothing membrane. also acts to provide starch seal.
[18:19:39] <LatheBuilder2> pins all vertical.
[18:20:07] <PetefromTn_> so you are seriously considering going into the gummy business then?
[18:20:20] <CaptHindsight> you still have to make the pattern, unless you 1:1 with kids faces, that could be fun as well :)
[18:20:56] <LatheBuilder2> 1) use lcnc in a mill to set each pin depth. food compliant clay acts as depth stop.
[18:21:14] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: it's working out the process from end to end, looks simple at first
[18:21:53] <LatheBuilder2> 2) once all pins pressed to correct depth, lock pins together and extract from bedding media. put silicone sheet over, pull vacuum.
[18:22:12] <LatheBuilder2> 3) press into starch bed. 4) cast
[18:22:13] <furrywolf> that seems far more complicated than just stamping a form into starch.
[18:22:16] <PetefromTn_> hehe everything looks simple at first
[18:22:27] <furrywolf> machine it out of wood, wax, or something else disposable.
[18:23:19] <LatheBuilder2> if all your bears need to look exactly the same nothing stops you from using one form. what if you want to make gummy "bears" shaped like something your family saw at the zoo just that day?
[18:23:40] <furrywolf> 3d print them. :
[18:23:41] <furrywolf> :P
[18:23:48] <DaViruz> gummy giraffe
[18:24:58] <LatheBuilder2> CaptHindsight: ever watch Meet the Croods? Family portrait
[18:25:24] <PetefromTn_> I have always wanted to make my own candy mold 3d milled
[18:25:30] <furrywolf> how about a 3d starch+binder inkjet printer? create the mold directly by spraying binder into starch one layer at a time, dump out non-bound starch, pour in gummy?
[18:27:41] <furrywolf> that would be quick and reusable, especially if the binder was something like water.
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[18:30:39] <LatheBuilder2> for those that haven't seen it, in Meet the Croods the family smears all their faces with paint and hit themselves with a big plate of shale to make "family portraits". a joke.
[18:31:09] <furrywolf> ... ok?
[18:31:55] <CaptHindsight> "use your face to make gorilla cookies" -70's TV
[18:32:17] <LatheBuilder2> an extension to CaptH's humorous comment of 1:1 kids faces gently pressed in powdered starch beds to make molds.
[18:33:06] <furrywolf> I like my starch binder inkjet idea...
[18:35:24] <PetefromTn_> I was just thinkng of designing a cool chocolate mold nothing fancy
[18:37:22] <CaptHindsight> the whole thing just got me thinking about custom shaped foods in general
[18:37:28] <LatheBuilder2> CaptHindsight: something like this but with the pins touching. http://tangible.media.mit.edu/project/relief/
[18:37:54] <CaptHindsight> https://www.ediblearrangements.com/ and similar
[18:38:00] <LatheBuilder2> in that link, the pins are spaced for individual driving.
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[18:39:23] <LatheBuilder2> a 1 x 1 square made from touching pins on 0.062 spacing. If it takes 1/2 second per pin to press to depth you are looking at just over 2 minutes to build the whole mold.
[18:40:11] <furrywolf> you can buy a whole lot of disposable machining material for what that'll cost.
[18:41:12] <SpeedEvil> Great.
[18:41:16] <SpeedEvil> Now, how do you clean that?
[18:41:18] <furrywolf> I still like my 3d printed starch binder... you're already using starch, why not just make the mold in it directly?
[18:44:05] <SpeedEvil> From memory, chocolate is a non-newtonian fluid
[18:44:23] <SpeedEvil> you can pump it at really high pressure cold, and then it rapidly sets up
[18:50:55] <CaptHindsight> you can play with the formulation for chocolate as well
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[18:51:42] <zeeshan> lol im actually trying to do some real milling calcs
[18:51:57] <zeeshan> and some of these numbers are so much higher than im used to
[18:52:09] <CaptHindsight> what are you milling?
[18:52:11] <zeeshan> steel drilling w/ 1/4" drill : 6 ipm, 2000 rpm
[18:52:14] <zeeshan> steel
[18:52:15] <CaptHindsight> material
[18:52:22] <zeeshan> 1018 cold rolled
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[18:57:09] <JT-Shop> windoze 7 wants me to upgrade to 10 for free lol
[18:57:22] <ganzuul> Can chocolate be heat polished?
[18:57:34] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: how much do class pictures cost these days? And do they still sell candy, caramel apples, etc for fund raisers?
[18:57:37] <furrywolf> JT-Shop: don't.
[18:57:45] <CaptHindsight> ganzuul: sure
[18:58:07] <CaptHindsight> same for wax
[18:58:13] <ganzuul> hmm
[19:00:42] <CaptHindsight> cnc shaved Popsicle's
[19:01:26] <ganzuul> What's the engineering term? Flame polishing relies on a gas flow which creates dunes, but if you don't have gas flow you might be able to get much better roughness or evenness.
[19:01:57] <CaptHindsight> IR Reflow
[19:02:01] <ganzuul> oooh
[19:02:02] <ganzuul> ty
[19:02:32] <CaptHindsight> laser polished chocolates
[19:04:25] <ganzuul> eeh... All the hits are for reflow soldering... Not polishing.
[19:05:39] <SpeedEvil> Flame polishing creates dunes if you do it wrong IME
[19:06:14] <SpeedEvil> the right way is to hit the surface really hard - as in with a blowtorch on high from 1cm - but with the torch moving rapidly over the surface
[19:06:22] <SpeedEvil> so it's only actually heating for ~20ms or so
[19:06:45] <SpeedEvil> Only the very, very surface layer gets melted and becomes very liquid, and then freezes a handful of milliseconds later
[19:07:11] <ganzuul> But doesn't that create a pattern?
[19:07:38] <SpeedEvil> Not IME - but then I was doing it on safety glass
[19:08:15] <ganzuul> Did you check strain with the polarization thing?
[19:09:05] <SpeedEvil> Irrelevant.
[19:09:14] <SpeedEvil> The only bit heated is the top ~50um or so
[19:09:20] <ganzuul> oh
[19:09:41] <SpeedEvil> _really_ fast
[19:09:49] <CaptHindsight> https://youtu.be/iNQ40MYwZqw?t=55s only with PP sheet
[19:10:32] <JT-Shop> furrywolf, I don't plan on it
[19:10:42] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight No idea but if they sell it at a school it is typically twice or better what it is worth LOL
[19:10:54] <ganzuul> CaptHindsight: That's cool. :)
[19:11:48] <furrywolf> on a completely unrelated computer-related topic, god damn SSDs make computers faster. I can't wait to get my new laptop suitable for being my main system.
[19:11:54] <PetefromTn_> is that for a single part or for a mold?
[19:12:04] <furrywolf> I'm never putting a spinning rust drive in anything again. lol
[19:12:05] <CaptHindsight> single part
[19:12:17] <PetefromTn_> jeez that looks like a slow process
[19:12:32] <PetefromTn_> WAY slow compared to a pressed part
[19:12:48] <CaptHindsight> no tooling vs $300k
[19:12:52] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: they do
[19:13:14] <PetefromTn_> sorry I was having to clean out and defrost my fridge's Ice maker LOL
[19:13:29] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight sure for prototype work it would be fine I suppose
[19:14:14] <CaptHindsight> PetefromTn_: smaller production runs
[19:14:30] <PetefromTn_> at Ford?
[19:15:21] <CaptHindsight> they do call it a prototyping process
[19:15:55] <PetefromTn_> and a damn good one at that it is very interesting... kinda reminds me of the lathe forming processes for round parts
[19:16:55] <ganzuul> CaptHindsight: Laser polishing seems to be the high-tech version...
[19:17:49] <CaptHindsight> maybe Mr. Potato head-sh patterns would be good enough
[19:18:33] <CaptHindsight> have a premade library of face patterns that you finish mill in minutes
[19:20:09] <furrywolf> I hate google. hate. hate!
[19:20:35] <furrywolf> yesterday, on this laptop, I went to a couple pages someone pasted about how gummies are made.
[19:20:45] <furrywolf> today, on my other laptop, I go to youtube to see if video playback works, and it's recommending gummy videos.
[19:21:06] <furrywolf> I do not have any google accounts of any kind.
[19:26:26] <pcw_home> I know all, I see all...
[19:27:12] <Tom_itx> fact or fiction
[19:27:15] <CaptHindsight> pcw_home: when will the Cubs win the World Series? :)
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[19:36:57] <CaptHindsight> ganzuul: https://youtu.be/opilKX7ea_c?t=13s chocolate marked with a CO2 laser
[19:40:01] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuTPnqaZu58 Laser Engraving on a CHOCOLATE BAR
[19:40:48] * ganzuul is suspicious
[19:44:38] <ganzuul> Should probably use a more diffuse beam for polishing.
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[19:56:15] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: that doesnt look too healthy :P
[19:56:52] <pcw_home> Mmm pyrolized food
[19:57:32] <CaptHindsight> bacon
[19:59:38] <CaptHindsight> laser engraved chocolate as patterns with corn starch molds
[19:59:53] <Loetmichel> hmmm.... how long can peanut butter be over the "best before"? i just found a still sealed mug in the closet... with a best before date of 2007 ;)
[20:00:14] <furrywolf> is it green, white, or fluffy? otherwise, it's still good.
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[20:03:12] <ganzuul> What sort of seal is it? If metallized, it should be OK for a long time.
[20:04:24] <ganzuul> Smelling and tasting it should tell you though. If it's even a little off, that's a billion years of evolution telling you not to be an ass.
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[20:06:43] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: glass mug with metalized paper seal on top
[20:07:19] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: i NEVER eat that stuff. thats why it had survived so long in the cupboard
[20:09:31] <ganzuul> Me neither. Guess that's how I survived too.
[20:10:21] <ganzuul> Dug mine out just now. Said 2013. It's in the bin now.
[20:14:04] <furrywolf> I've eaten plenty of expired food. unless it's moldy, it seems to be fine. and even if it is, it's sometimes fine. heh.
[20:14:19] <furrywolf> for example, just cut the outside off of moldy cheese...
[20:14:57] <ganzuul> That doesn't work with chicken.
[20:15:01] <ganzuul> Just FYI.
[20:17:20] <Loetmichel> let him make that mistake himself
[20:17:58] <Loetmichel> the unpleasantness of that experience will ram that truth firm in his brain ;-)
[20:18:00] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: do you decide on the BOM for the electric wheel chair?
[20:18:09] <Loetmichel> not right now
[20:18:28] <Loetmichel> i will shove my wife thru londong the next few days
[20:18:39] <Loetmichel> ... also good for my overweight ;)
[20:19:28] <Loetmichel> ... will be in the hotel in london 24 hrs from now
[20:19:44] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel powered
[20:19:57] <ganzuul> Electron beam polishing seems to already have moved into a commercial phase. EB seems to usually be more economic than laser.
[20:20:34] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: vacation or work in London?
[20:20:42] <Loetmichel> ... and wife has already booked: mdme tussauds, tower, tower bridge, some sightseeing bus, a few things i forgot already and has ordered a rental car for a "short trip to cambridge"....
[20:20:58] <Loetmichel> <- sees himself coming back with muscles like arnold ;)
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[20:21:03] <Loetmichel> vacation
[20:21:08] <Loetmichel> only 4 days tho
[20:21:45] <Loetmichel> ah, one of the things i forgot was london dungenon
[20:21:58] <ganzuul> There is a museum with a huge steam engine & flywheel somewhere in London
[20:22:30] <ganzuul> The aeronautical museum isn't that good though.
[20:22:36] <t12> whats up with machine leveling pads and minimum weights?
[20:22:56] <t12> lack of compression/stability?
[20:23:11] <Loetmichel> t12: no idea, i would suppose that they are not "steady" if the rubber isnt compressed to a certain point
[20:23:23] <t12> lathe finally came in
[20:23:31] <t12> now the slow setting it up
[20:24:42] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: i am just the " drive" for wifes wheelchair. i doubt i get any say in where to go
[20:24:42] <t12> trying to sort out the leveling feet details
[20:25:08] <t12> looking at mighty mounts, i guess if you want to adjust through a hole in a plate rather than something threaded to recieve it
[20:25:20] <t12> you just use nuts on the leveling foot stud?
[20:25:36] <ganzuul> Loetmichel: lol
[20:27:07] <LatheBuilder2> t12: lathes without proper leveling feet loading = chatter. Learned this firsthand with a Big lathe sitting on lumber spacers
[20:28:23] <LatheBuilder2> took it off lumber spacers and levelled it properly. the feet in contact with floor changes damping characteristics...wouldn't have guessed it without seeing it
[20:28:54] <Loetmichel> LatheBuilder2: i think that depends on the structure of the lathe
[20:29:19] <Loetmichel> there are some builds out there that will not chatter even when set up floating on an air cushion ;)
[20:29:33] <LatheBuilder2> yes, and the bigger the lathe the more it depends on the floor.
[20:29:50] <Loetmichel> and others that bend/act as a torsion spring when you look at it angry
[20:30:25] <LatheBuilder2> for commodity grade lathes anyway. Those all granite toolmakers lathes are a different class of stiff
[20:31:38] <LatheBuilder2> my experience is limited with lathes despite my handle. I believe you
[20:32:27] <Loetmichel> especially some chinese small lathes seem to be exeptionally weak on torsion of the bed
[20:33:08] <furrywolf> that's because they're exceptionally weak on using adequate amounts and quality of materials.
[20:33:12] <Loetmichel> and i'ce seen an old german toolmakers lathe (even with the swatiska embedded in its castings) that was not that bigger or heavier but sturdy as HELL
[20:33:22] <t12> i have a sort of strange situation of this being in a house with hardwood floors
[20:33:29] <t12> reinfoced underneath floor to couple to ground
[20:33:37] <t12> lathe will sit on 2 big aluminum plates i found scrap
[20:33:49] <t12> leveling feet between stand, plates
[20:34:36] <t12> this is a weiss
[20:34:43] <t12> the bed is def kinda wimpy
[20:34:48] <Loetmichel> ... and dont get me talking abount the REALLY small chinese ones
[20:34:54] <Loetmichel> like my little C0
[20:35:01] <Loetmichel> THATS a piece of crap ;)
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[20:35:31] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/s/mkw8uj0nwb20whr/2015-08-08%2013.18.37.jpg?dl=0
[20:35:35] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=520&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[20:35:48] <Loetmichel> nice
[20:36:00] <t12> i have a little taig i mounted onto a thorlabs optical plate
[20:36:08] <t12> but its shelved for now
[20:36:11] <t12> that will be the cnc toy
[20:36:18] <Loetmichel> i have one in that size also
[20:36:32] <Loetmichel> but i could lift it on my own, its only 75kg ;)
[20:37:05] <t12> that was one of my design ideas
[20:37:08] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11462&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[20:37:30] <Loetmichel> so a little smaller than yours
[20:37:31] <t12> i wonder when its easier to just
[20:37:40] <t12> make a bed out of an I-beam scrap
[20:37:44] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: how's the optimum working?
[20:37:45] <t12> or a railroad raikl
[20:37:47] <t12> rail
[20:37:54] <DaViruz> i have a optimum mill which i have mixed feelings about..
[20:38:01] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: very well since i mounted a new 3 phase motor
[20:38:02] <zeeshan> can someone do a sanity check
[20:38:02] <zeeshan> N15040 G98 G33.1 Z-.125 K.04921
[20:38:12] <DaViruz> some parts are really nice, some are not
[20:38:17] <t12> the weiss was the smallest cheapest thing i could find with a camlock spindle
[20:38:17] <zeeshan> that gives me a .04921" pitch thread
[20:38:23] <DaViruz> stock motor was crap. spindle lock is crap :/
[20:38:27] <DaViruz> quill lock even
[20:38:28] <zeeshan> aka .04921 * 25.5 = 1.25
[20:38:29] <Loetmichel> but i never get to renew the belt drive
[20:38:31] <zeeshan> 25.4 i mean
[20:39:06] <Loetmichel> the pulley have broken out parts
[20:39:39] <Loetmichel> s/get/got
[20:39:45] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: what are the change gears like?
[20:39:55] <DaViruz> we have some chinese mini lathe at work which is horiffic
[20:39:56] <Loetmichel> as far as i can tell: working
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[20:40:02] <Loetmichel> didnt use it that much til now
[20:40:16] <Loetmichel> can only use one spindle speed untiol i fix that pulleys
[20:40:26] <DaViruz> they incude a set of brittle plastic shims you need to use because the gears wont line up properly
[20:40:35] <DaViruz> gears fit poorly on shafts, shims likewise
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[20:40:42] <DaViruz> and they tend to crack if you force them
[20:40:57] <Loetmichel> most of the changing gears i have are steel
[20:41:02] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: oh i meant for threading
[20:41:02] <Loetmichel> so no breaking there
[20:41:08] <XXCoder> DaViruz: make new lathe [arts with it?
[20:41:09] <Loetmichel> i mean too
[20:41:22] <DaViruz> yeah the gears are steel, or at least some metal
[20:41:34] <Loetmichel> "steep"
[20:41:37] <Loetmichel> "steel" ;)
[20:41:37] <DaViruz> it's just a pain that they wont line up without the plastic shims what don't fit :)
[20:41:50] <t12> lol
[20:41:52] <t12> metal substutute
[20:42:00] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: chinese steel
[20:42:01] <Loetmichel> i will not use it much in that config either
[20:43:03] <Loetmichel> XXCoder: chinese cast steel= one third sand from the mold, one third air, and the last third the brushed up scrap from the workshop floor ;)
[20:43:19] <XXCoder> lol
[20:43:49] <XXCoder> 1/3 steel, 1/3 random metals, 1/3 random non-metal
[20:44:25] <Loetmichel> you forgot the air bubbles like fucking caves inside ;-)
[20:45:15] <XXCoder> lol
[20:45:24] <XXCoder> new light steel!
[20:45:32] <XXCoder> alloy of steel and air
[20:48:06] <Loetmichel> t12: i intend to make mine full CNC also
[20:48:53] <Loetmichel> including an encoder on the spindle so linuxCNC knows how to make threads without using any gears
[20:48:55] <DaViruz> i'm guessing these are sintered powdered metal
[20:52:28] <ganzuul> Is the Taig a good lathe for a newbie?
[20:52:45] <furrywolf> do you need to make teeny tiny parts? :P
[20:52:50] <ganzuul> Yep.
[20:53:05] <Loetmichel> no idea, i am german, here "optimum" rules the hobby market
[20:53:13] <ganzuul> Link?
[20:53:24] <Loetmichel> furrywolf: for teeny tiny parts: use a C1
[20:53:37] <Loetmichel> ( the c0 is utter crap tho)
[20:54:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14058&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- works barely for PMMA
[20:54:58] <DaViruz> nice santa-beard :)
[20:55:18] <Loetmichel> that beard is white all the time
[20:55:34] <DaViruz> the pmma-beard i mean
[20:55:39] <Loetmichel> but it got a bit longer by that PMMA shavings
[20:56:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15326 <- gone full gray a few years ago ;)
[20:56:29] <t12> the taig i found
[20:56:31] <t12> is just too small
[20:56:41] <t12> like its hard to find ballscrews etc that fit that arent just giant outriggers
[20:57:10] <t12> i've been leaning towards just maybe using their spindle
[20:57:19] <t12> and making the rest from scratch out of linear rail or something
[20:57:35] <Loetmichel> hmm, there are some tiny 12mm*2mm ballscrews out there
[20:57:40] <Loetmichel> had some here
[20:57:52] <ganzuul> I heard that you can get really good accuracy with the Taig, lathe and mill.
[20:58:17] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: for the mill: depends
[20:58:33] <Loetmichel> the original acme leadscrews are not that good i hear
[20:58:41] <t12> i got a sieg x2 and its suprisingly ok
[20:58:52] <t12> except for the general tinyness
[20:59:03] <t12> it def needs alot of work done to it but for small stuff it works well
[20:59:12] <ganzuul> What happens when you give it something as big as will fit?
[20:59:58] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: my homemande cnc knee mill is even smaller than a taig and uses 10mm acme threads... works well tho
[21:00:14] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569
[21:00:44] <ganzuul> That's a big spindle. :o
[21:00:54] <t12> is that one of those china ebay spindles?
[21:01:12] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Ov69t0uwo
[21:01:15] <Loetmichel> it is
[21:01:19] <t12> hows it work
[21:01:22] <Loetmichel> and its not a big spindle
[21:01:27] <Loetmichel> its a small machine ;)
[21:02:22] <ganzuul> That's pretty quiet...
[21:02:34] <Loetmichel> it can do louder ;)
[21:02:43] <ganzuul> I bet. :)
[21:03:17] <Loetmichel> especiually with large aluminium extrusions
[21:03:19] <t12> think the bearings will hold up
[21:03:29] <t12> or is it all high speed tiny chip
[21:03:57] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEd4LCJ3uWk <- caution, CHATTTER
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[21:04:56] <XXCoder> if I find genie, after using trick for infinite wishes, I would wish for steady hands of sugeon for everyone
[21:05:03] <XXCoder> so no more danged shaky handheld videos
[21:05:13] <Loetmichel> sorry
[21:05:44] <t12> that machine looks like it gets alot of general use
[21:05:46] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: not your problem
[21:05:51] <XXCoder> its my problem lol
[21:06:19] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNLjMg0Nitk <- in plastics its seriously quiet tho
[21:06:27] <ganzuul> I learned a trick for steady hands while learning to solder! - Keep your elbows tight to your body. It helps a LOT.
[21:07:35] <XXCoder> nice
[21:09:13] <Loetmichel> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXNhsid6PD0 <- not even THAT loud in 1,5mm sheet aluminium
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[21:09:52] <Loetmichel> "only a few holes" ;)
[21:10:07] <Loetmichel> tha last two are for the same product tho
[21:10:30] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12843
[21:10:35] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13555
[21:11:11] <Loetmichel> an 2 port usb insert for a 5.25" drive slot on a pc with front doof
[21:11:13] <Loetmichel> door
[21:11:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10886
[21:12:01] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10883
[21:12:05] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10880
[21:12:07] <XXCoder> just a few million holes ueaj
[21:12:12] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10877
[21:12:16] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10874
[21:12:19] <Loetmichel> see?
[21:12:23] <Loetmichel> not that complicated
[21:12:47] <Loetmichel> but better than breaking off the thumbdrives every time you close the door and forget them ;-)
[21:13:18] <XXCoder> thats pretty awesome
[21:14:25] <Loetmichel> not really THAT much holes... made more ... -> (shielding enclosure for a NAS) http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14184&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:14:41] <Loetmichel> 900++ drills on the front and 900++ drills on the back ;)
[21:15:04] <Loetmichel> that took QUITE a while to mill ;)
[21:15:30] <Loetmichel> especially because i did 5
[21:15:39] <Loetmichel> + the prototype
[21:16:40] <fenn> t12: use square structural steel instead of i-beam for the bed, it has higher torsional stiffness and you can fill it with concrete to increase vibration damping
[21:17:12] <Loetmichel> fenn: define structual steel?
[21:17:19] <Loetmichel> square tubes?
[21:18:09] <fenn> like this: http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=10376&step=4&showunits=inches&id=845&top_cat=849
[21:18:29] <fenn> but from a scrapyard :)
[21:18:35] <XXCoder> very safe https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6261026304/hAFE3D289/
[21:19:44] <Sync_> safe enough
[21:20:01] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: how do you shield the lcd window, if at all?
[21:20:03] <DaViruz> on the NAS case
[21:20:31] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: small shard of that: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12454&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:20:47] <DaViruz> metallized glass?
[21:20:48] <Loetmichel> i have a few of these 24" monitor panes that had been broken
[21:20:58] <Loetmichel> so i cut such small stuff out of it
[21:21:18] <Loetmichel> glass pane with copper mesh laminated on it
[21:21:28] <Loetmichel> 1mm glass
[21:21:39] <DaViruz> i see
[21:22:13] <XXCoder> looks like GREAT EM blocker,.
[21:22:39] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: if you ever get montior with broken light but working everything else you can build a projector
[21:22:59] <Loetmichel> and i HAD to shield the "lcd"... because its a VFD that emits loads of EM from its 120V smps
[21:23:08] <Sync_> or just buy a real projector
[21:23:24] <XXCoder> Sync_: like eyeclops projector
[21:23:25] <XXCoder> heh
[21:23:59] <DaViruz> oh, yeah i bet a vfd is pretty much a transmitter
[21:24:27] <Deejay> gn8
[21:25:13] <ganzuul> o/
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[21:25:58] <Sync_> the vfd is not
[21:26:02] <Sync_> the cabling is
[21:26:27] <Loetmichel> the VFD and its PCB is
[21:26:56] <Loetmichel> the cabling was clad with 2 layers of copper braid underneath the nylon braid
[21:27:38] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14184&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- you can see the tinned copper braid shine thru the nylon braid on the door hinge
[21:28:09] <XXCoder> love how you always leave caliper in view'
[21:28:13] <XXCoder> great sense of scale.
[21:28:26] <Loetmichel> yes, solemly for size comparison ;)
[21:28:41] <Loetmichel> had no "standard beer bottle" handy at the company
[21:28:53] <fenn> diy projector from monitors can have much higher resolution than any sub-$10k projector
[21:29:17] <Loetmichel> which is used in the german "peters CNC ecke" forum as a standard size comparsion ;)
[21:29:17] <XXCoder> fenn: even really shitty homebrew projector is better than eyeclops lol
[21:29:27] <Loetmichel> fenn: dont need that
[21:29:37] <XXCoder> fenn: but then you can use eyeclops at camp site lol
[21:29:59] <Loetmichel> have a 1024*768 dpl projector in the car. driving it around for two years now, never came to use it ;
[21:30:01] <Loetmichel> )
[21:30:30] <XXCoder> lol
[21:30:34] <DaViruz> Sync_: vacuum fluorescent display, not varible frequency drive
[21:30:35] <Loetmichel> dlp
[21:31:16] <DaViruz> and besides, even in a variable frequency drive the vfd is the transmitter, the cables are the antennas
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[21:32:35] <ganzuul> A microwave oven is a very effective EM shield.
[21:32:37] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: o know. had to shield my motor cable for the mini spindle or the steppers would have gone crazy
[21:32:55] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: you would be surprised how not effective
[21:33:06] <Loetmichel> putyour cellphone in there and call it
[21:33:07] <ganzuul> :o
[21:33:11] <ganzuul> hmm
[21:33:18] <XXCoder> microwave is designed to be super effective for 1 cm wavelength
[21:33:24] <Loetmichel> door closed but NOT activated of course
[21:33:25] <Loetmichel> ;_)
[21:33:42] <XXCoder> it turns very effective after on for second or 23
[21:33:44] <XXCoder> er 3
[21:33:52] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[21:33:54] <Loetmichel> yes ;)
[21:34:05] <Loetmichel> and after a few more seconds: RUN
[21:34:21] <ganzuul> The grounding plug is essential to an MWO though
[21:34:27] <Loetmichel> li-ion batteries really dont LIKE that
[21:34:31] <Loetmichel> MWO?
[21:34:39] <ganzuul> Microwave oven
[21:34:58] <ganzuul> Sends 2000V through its chassis.
[21:35:40] <Loetmichel> ah
[21:35:50] <ganzuul> No one designs new electronics this way these days, but the MWO is from a different era, and so gets approved, somehow
[21:36:21] <Mr_Sheesh> grandfathered in
[21:36:30] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: to be honest i really dont like ungrounded stuff at all
[21:36:46] <Loetmichel> especially smps for smartphones and stuff
[21:36:51] <Loetmichel> i have a waterbed
[21:37:13] <Loetmichel> when my "bedside tablet" is charging i can feel the filter current on its backplate
[21:37:26] <Loetmichel> because the heaters for the waterbed ARE grounded :-(
[21:37:30] <ganzuul> ...that's not a nice bedtime thought
[21:37:42] <Loetmichel> its just a light tingling, about 1mA
[21:38:03] <Loetmichel> nothing serious but indicates a really cheap design of the psu
[21:38:07] <ganzuul> Has to be pretty high voltage though.
[21:38:20] <Loetmichel> half mains voltage, as usual
[21:38:22] <zeeshan> XXCoder: rofl
[21:38:35] <Loetmichel> its the mains filters that introduce this current
[21:38:46] <XXCoder> zeeshan: on which link? heh
[21:38:49] <ganzuul> Well, never plug an MWO into enything but a grounded outlet.
[21:38:52] <zeeshan> the fan
[21:38:57] <zeeshan> wedged between a keyboard
[21:38:58] <XXCoder> ahh yea
[21:39:04] <Loetmichel> fan?
[21:39:28] <XXCoder> loet my previous link
[21:39:32] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: my motor cable for the mill spindle: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12560
[21:39:52] <Loetmichel> ... braided tinned copper all the way, two clip-on ferrites
[21:40:22] <Loetmichel> was the only way to stop the steppers for going crazy as soon as the spindle started ;)
[21:41:03] <ganzuul> Universal motor in the spindle?
[21:41:13] <Loetmichel> 3 pahse
[21:41:20] <ganzuul> huh...
[21:41:21] <Loetmichel> 3phase with fvd
[21:41:30] <Loetmichel> vfd
[21:42:20] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12811 <- vfd on the left
[21:42:20] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: sounds like pretty sensitive stepper drivers? but yeah, vfd's can send some pretty nasty stuff thorugh unshielded cables (or motors)
[21:42:29] <ganzuul> Ferrite beads alone didn't help?
[21:42:36] <Loetmichel> not at all
[21:42:38] <XXCoder> would 500w router engine do same?
[21:42:42] <XXCoder> hope not lol
[21:42:48] <Loetmichel> thats an 800W spindle
[21:43:39] <Loetmichel> XXCoder: its not the motor that does that
[21:43:46] <Loetmichel> its the PWM from the VFD
[21:43:51] <XXCoder> ahh
[21:43:55] <XXCoder> I should be fine then
[21:43:56] <XXCoder> thanks
[21:44:03] <Loetmichel> nice square waves on the cabling ;)
[21:44:32] <Loetmichel> if the router is an universal one with brushes: prepare for some shit as soon as they wear down tho
[21:44:46] <pcw_home> 360V square waves into the motor winding/ground capacitance
[21:44:56] <Loetmichel> pcw_home: right ;)
[21:45:10] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: yea probably will, but its short term thing, evenually want to build 53mm spindle holder
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[21:45:21] <DaViruz> they can be pretty mean to motor bearings as well
[21:45:24] <XXCoder> so my router can hold nice 53mm diameter spindle
[21:45:58] <pcw_home> the fast risetime = unlimited current causes the VFD ground to bounce to say 30V or so
[21:46:39] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: pretty sensitive....
[21:46:44] <pcw_home> ground is just an autotransformer at MHz...
[21:46:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12808 <- and a bit "open"
[21:47:11] <Loetmichel> thats the back side of the backplate of the mill ;)
[21:47:28] <ganzuul> pcw_home: Never thought about it that way before... Kinda scary, actually.
[21:48:06] <ganzuul> HF power is kinda toxic.
[21:48:08] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: the shoemakers childen have the worst shoes :)
[21:48:10] <Loetmichel> ... should make a bit of enclosure for that shit some time ;)
[21:48:21] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: right ;-)
[21:48:23] <DaViruz> (not sure if that saying translates that well..)
[21:48:33] <Loetmichel> we have the same in germany
[21:48:39] <Loetmichel> just without the children
[21:48:51] <Loetmichel> "der schuster trägt die schlechtesten schuhe"
[21:48:55] <DaViruz> oh
[21:50:31] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: had to improvise a bit after my old PSU had "thrown the hoofs in the air"
[21:51:51] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12548&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- sometimes a smarphone comes in handy ;)
[21:52:30] <Loetmichel> the old PSU (left) just wasnt beefy enough ... and not overload-protected
[21:52:40] <Loetmichel> main SMPS fet exploded
[21:53:27] <Loetmichel> so i digged in the "spare parts box" and came up with that trasformer there
[21:53:54] <Loetmichel> mounted it on a bit of alu-Dibond, thrown in a few regulators and rectifiers-> done
[21:54:05] <Loetmichel> BEEFY supply for the stepper drivers ;)
[21:55:06] <Loetmichel> btw: alu-dibond is a NEAT material to make enclosures!
[21:55:19] <DaViruz> *googling*
[21:56:09] <Loetmichel> (laminated 0,2mm aluminium-> 2,4mm pvc or PE, 0,2mm aluminium)
[21:56:26] <ganzuul> oooh
[21:56:44] <DaViruz> how'd they get it to stick to the PE?
[21:56:51] <Loetmichel> heat?
[21:57:09] <DaViruz> in my experience PE sticks to nothing, ever
[21:57:10] <DaViruz> :)
[21:57:24] <DaViruz> but with a rough Al finish and heat perhaps
[21:57:27] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: unless you extrude it between the plates
[21:58:54] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=775&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:59:05] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=772&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:59:16] <Loetmichel> thats the old CNC driver enclosure
[21:59:26] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=769&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:59:59] <Loetmichel> just mill a v-grooove at every bend to 80% material thickness...
[22:00:02] <Loetmichel> fold by hand
[22:00:04] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[22:01:06] <DaViruz> neat!
[22:01:16] <Loetmichel> ... and remember that it IS aluminium... which conducts electricity... so use an earthed plug AND be aware of swarf...
[22:01:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10609
[22:01:36] <Loetmichel> ... i wasnt
[22:01:42] <DaViruz> though the outside is isolated from the inside..
[22:01:42] <DaViruz> :)
[22:02:41] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10603&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- when it exploded i found quite a bit of ali swarf inside...
[22:02:56] <Loetmichel> one had hit the mains and the inner wall...
[22:03:40] <ganzuul> Note to self: put electronics above machine; not below.
[22:03:47] <Loetmichel> right ;)
[22:04:47] <ganzuul> Is there a name for lathes & chucks witch let you put material right through the chuck and poking out the other end?
[22:05:06] <Loetmichel> isnt that on EVERY lathe?
[22:05:11] <ganzuul> hmm
[22:05:58] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: every work with milling frozen paraffin wax?
[22:06:25] <Loetmichel> no, but wit a mix of stearin wax and shopping bags
[22:06:29] -!- ttiimm has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[22:06:33] <XXCoder> Loetmichel: not really, I saw some that dont have that
[22:06:35] <Loetmichel> which worked quite well
[22:07:01] <Loetmichel> (or was it paraffin? cant remember)
[22:07:17] <CaptHindsight> wondering about the wax without the additives since it's for food
[22:07:18] <ganzuul> candles is paraffin
[22:07:46] <Loetmichel> ganzuul: not neccessarily: there are paraffin, stearin and bees wax candles
[22:08:14] <Loetmichel> and some "funderal lights" with some "stiffened petroleum" however they managed that
[22:08:17] <ganzuul> :o
[22:08:25] <Loetmichel> funeral
[22:08:29] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, http://www.alloyavenue.com/vb/album.php?albumid=113&attachmentid=12313
[22:09:01] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: looks like you have to login to view
[22:09:26] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: but you can mill normal paraffin just fine. you just have to wait for winder
[22:09:27] <Loetmichel> winter
[22:09:32] <CaptHindsight> not my message anyway
[22:09:57] <Loetmichel> beacuse it works better at 15°c than at the 35°c i have in here right now ,)
[22:10:05] <Loetmichel> and you have to get it to stick to your bed
[22:10:32] <CaptHindsight> chilled wax with CO2 nozzle next to cutting area to cool wax and move chips
[22:10:56] <XXCoder> why? just get an ac
[22:10:58] <Loetmichel> ... i would suggest using a particle board as a "sacrificial surface" bolted to the table and then heat the underside of the paraffin block with a flame and "melt" it into the particle board
[22:11:02] <XXCoder> pump entire cold air at max to it
[22:11:50] <Loetmichel> XXCoder: ac would work, too
[22:11:59] <Loetmichel> i meant that 15°C is enough
[22:12:06] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: to big to fit on a desk
[22:12:09] <Loetmichel> it dosent have to be below zero
[22:12:10] <XXCoder> and probably pre-existing equipment too. many do have ac
[22:12:17] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: it dont have to be on desk
[22:12:19] <XXCoder> hoses
[22:12:41] <Loetmichel> i dont
[22:12:43] <Loetmichel> sadly
[22:13:04] <Loetmichel> its 35.4°c in here right now
[22:13:20] <Loetmichel> ... and its juuust past midnight in germany...
[22:13:43] <XXCoder> 24c here
[22:13:46] <XXCoder> afternoon
[22:14:04] <CaptHindsight> then again most kitchens have refrigeration and it's only minutes from block of wax to finished part
[22:14:32] <JT-Shop> http://ibin.co/2BTgAu1vTL2N
[22:14:40] <XXCoder> CaptHindsight: can also do homebrew ac
[22:14:48] <XXCoder> lots ice and hose though it
[22:14:48] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: looks hot :)
[22:14:59] <JT-Shop> aluminum scrapper
[22:15:01] <XXCoder> freeze few jugs of water
[22:15:04] <zeeshan> nice!
[22:15:10] <XXCoder> buy 2 or 3 bags of ice it will last quite a while
[22:15:15] <JT-Shop> I'm building one one day when I have time
[22:15:15] <Loetmichel> does that look like that in reality
[22:15:25] <Loetmichel> or is it the cam picking up IR?
[22:15:42] <JT-Shop> yea, they get so hot you can almost see through them
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[22:16:59] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: is that with just a few holes for fresh air near the bottom?
[22:17:16] <ganzuul> I want to make hydrostatic stuff... Leadscrews and ways. I figure, I could retrofit a Taig lathe with hydrostatic leadscrews that I make myself on the same lathe. Maybe? Or maybe use a smaller lathe to make a bigger lathe? :D
[22:17:45] <CaptHindsight> or is the bottom off the top drum?
[22:20:55] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: have you made soft jaws with v's in them before
[22:20:58] <JT-Shop> yes the bottom is open for the most part
[22:21:29] <JT-Shop> you leave an inch or two of the bottom so the melting globs fall into the water cleanly
[22:21:37] <JT-Shop> zeeshan, no
[22:21:41] <zeeshan> darn :P
[22:21:55] <JT-Shop> I have some hardened V jaws, why
[22:22:08] <zeeshan> im just wondering what size to make the V
[22:22:21] <JT-Shop> what size and shape of part?
[22:22:28] <zeeshan> i basically need to make 10 of these parts and they are 2.25" od
[22:22:36] <zeeshan> i wanna put em in the vise and not have to recenter them every time
[22:22:49] <zeeshan> so iwas thinking making a V soft jaw for the fixed jaw
[22:23:20] <JT-Shop> center in which direction?
[22:24:03] <JT-Shop> Y and Z are fixed if you just toss them in the vise
[22:24:41] <zeeshan> taking a snap
[22:25:17] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvG_356itPs japanese mini Segway "WalkCar"
[22:25:48] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/6BGiPSi.png
[22:25:50] <zeeshan> part
[22:25:58] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/fxXmf1W.jpg
[22:26:00] <zeeshan> jaw i was thinking of
[22:26:42] <zeeshan> hoping that jaw will keep X Y Z position
[22:26:49] <zeeshan> (if i have parallels under part)
[22:26:59] <zeeshan> so i just need to load a new part, run program and repeat
[22:27:19] <JT-Shop> http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.com/pro-vise-stop-single-side/
[22:27:21] <renesis> capthindsight: haha, like 90s skateboards
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[22:27:46] <JT-Shop> I just use an adjustable stop that is centered up on the diameter for a part like that
[22:27:48] <renesis> thats neat but big crack on a sidewalk take it out
[22:28:23] <CaptHindsight> renesis: yeah, needs pretty smooth pavement
[22:28:36] <renesis> i like this commercial, heh
[22:28:44] <JT-Shop> or one like this http://www.roviproducts.com/Mill_Stop.htm
[22:28:48] <renesis> the old lady was pretty cool
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[22:29:09] <renesis> haha walk or walkcar?
[22:29:50] <JT-Shop> http://www.lighttoolsupply.com/catalog/Product/SPI-5-Axis-Milling-Stop?productID=343083
[22:30:04] <zeeshan> wouldnt the v do the same thing?
[22:30:18] <JT-Shop> yea but then it is a special fixture
[22:30:36] <CaptHindsight> renesis: vs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76d60M_4DuU Self Balancing Electric Scooter
[22:30:43] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: can you describe the setup w/ the pro arm
[22:30:47] <zeeshan> you put a v-block in there
[22:30:55] <zeeshan> then hold the round part on top of parallels
[22:31:08] <zeeshan> and then butt it against the prostop?
[22:31:09] <renesis> hey i think i saw someone with that when i was driving home
[22:31:45] <renesis> made me nervous im like, youre gonna segway your ass into my car stahp pls
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[22:31:48] <JT-Shop> I usually just put parallels under the part if needed and use the stop to fix X and clamp it in the center of the vise
[22:31:59] <JT-Shop> no v-block usually
[22:32:32] <zeeshan> okay cool :)
[22:32:54] <JT-Shop> are you just drilling tapping or reaming holes?
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[22:32:59] <zeeshan> no
[22:33:03] <zeeshan> machining the outside too
[22:33:18] <zeeshan> its easier for me to do on the mill vs lathe
[22:33:27] <zeeshan> and my lathe is a pos
[22:33:31] <zeeshan> so i try to avoid it whenever i can
[22:34:03] <JT-Shop> in that case I would drill and tap or ream the holes then take a piece of scrap and bolt the parts down to machine the OD
[22:34:44] <zeeshan> i gotta flip the part upside down too
[22:34:59] <zeeshan> like im machining all the holes and od first
[22:35:10] <zeeshan> then flipping it upside down to machine it to length and the protrusion
[22:35:23] <JT-Shop> how are you going to hold it to machine the OD?
[22:35:45] <zeeshan> was hoping to grab .125" of it between a v block and the jaw
[22:35:46] <JT-Shop> oh your leaving extra to hold on to then
[22:35:48] <zeeshan> yes
[22:36:01] <zeeshan> ive never done this before though
[22:36:08] <JT-Shop> not a good idea... just imagine parts flying across your shop
[22:36:09] <zeeshan> im worried when i flip it, itll be out of center
[22:36:36] <zeeshan> i can increase it to 0.25"
[22:36:39] <JT-Shop> I would do all the top side ops then flip over and bolt down
[22:36:59] <JT-Shop> machine a boss to fit the center bore
[22:37:05] <JT-Shop> in your fixture plate
[22:38:07] <JT-Shop> or mill some flats on the bottom side to hold in the vise
[22:39:54] <zeeshan> will take a look at what scrap i have
[22:40:57] <JT-Shop> some 6061 is easy to use for fixtures and you have two sides
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[22:57:58] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, is andy's carousel comp in the docs yet? not sure it's gonna make it in the 2.7 but it looks like it might
[22:59:03] <fenn> zeeshan: if you're making it from a rectangular slab it might be easier to hold the bottom half of the slab in the vise while machining the top half, then flip it over and hold the cylindrical part in your vee. that way you have almost 50% of the part supported by the vise or vee block at all times
[22:59:18] <zeeshan> making it out of round stock
[23:01:21] <Tom_itx> zeeshan that hub adapter is a lathe part with a 2nd op for holes
[23:01:34] <zeeshan> read above
[23:02:00] <Tom_itx> use a recess tool
[23:02:39] <Tom_itx> if you were making many that would be a good approach but since you're not...
[23:03:36] <Tom_itx> your path doesn't look very optimized for those holes
[23:04:31] <fenn> there's only 7 holes
[23:04:45] <Tom_itx> that matters in production
[23:05:55] <Tom_itx> i always try to approach a job to be efficient if possible
[23:07:19] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, you gonna line your barrel with firebrick?
[23:10:24] <Tom_itx> http://ruemohr.org/~ircjunk/projects/smelter/p1040233.jpg
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[23:53:24] <zeeshan> just about now
[23:53:28] <zeeshan> i wish i had some angle blocks
[23:53:32] <zeeshan> 30 60 45 doesnt cut it
[23:54:21] <Tom_itx> sine plane
[23:54:26] <zeeshan> damn thing is too fat
[23:54:42] <zeeshan> how do iexplain this
[23:54:54] <zeeshan> my sine plate is 2" wide
[23:55:00] <zeeshan> my part is 1.875" wide
[23:55:17] <zeeshan> when i try to close the jaws for the vise, it grabs the sine plate rater than my part!! :P
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[23:57:08] <furrywolf> so put a parallel next to the part?
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[23:58:14] <zeeshan> http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b201/michael0100/DSC_1008.jpg
[23:58:17] <zeeshan> my sine plate looks like this
[23:58:38] <zeeshan> similar
[23:59:03] <andypugh> There were no taxis at the station when I returned from a day of machining in London. (Fixing the fire engine). So I walked the 2.5 miles home. It was harder work than normal, I just weighed my backpack and it was 32lb. A set of Burnerd EC collets. lathe tools and inserts.
[23:59:19] <zeeshan> andypugh: damn
[23:59:21] <furrywolf> so... why isn't putting a parallel next to the part going to fix it?
[23:59:29] <zeeshan> because when i clamp it down
[23:59:33] <zeeshan> ill be machining the parallel
[23:59:41] <zeeshan> it sits too high in the vise the sine plate
[23:59:59] <andypugh> zeeshan: It’s OK, it’s legal to be a pedestrian in the UK
[23:59:59] <furrywolf> so machine a spacer of the right shape to not be in the way, then