#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-07-26

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[00:02:16] <zeeshan-mill> 216 holes tapped
[00:02:22] <zeeshan-mill> with one tap!!!
[00:02:23] <zeeshan-mill> :D
[00:02:45] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:02:47] <XXCoder> your tap is stuf
[00:02:49] <XXCoder> stud
[00:02:55] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: in what?
[00:02:58] <XXCoder> heh nice to hear its working nicely
[00:03:18] <zeeshan-mill> 606
[00:03:22] <zeeshan-mill> 3/8
[00:03:26] <zeeshan-mill> ill post a pic in a few min
[00:05:02] * SpeedEvil bets on an 18*12 array
[00:06:02] <zeeshan-mill> whoops
[00:06:07] <zeeshan-mill> its actually 228
[00:06:11] <zeeshan-mill> 19x12
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[00:11:19] <Tom_itx> zeeshan what was wrong with your axis?
[00:11:50] <furrywolf> it didn't reverse fast enough
[00:12:09] <furrywolf> and linuxcnc's default behavior is to sit there and break your tap rather than give an error. :)
[00:14:14] <XXCoder> heh
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[00:25:11] <zeeshan-mill> Tom_itx, the encoder plug wasnt fully seated
[00:37:28] <furrywolf> I was thinking of using molex for my limit switches, but now I'm tempted to get some better connectors.
[00:37:45] <jdh> I hate molex
[00:38:01] <XXCoder> molex its bit ugly but very realiable
[00:38:07] <furrywolf> ... LOL
[00:38:08] <andypugh> Lemo. (Are you feeling rich?)
[00:38:09] <furrywolf> molex is NOT reliable.
[00:38:14] <furrywolf> under any meaning of the word.
[00:38:27] <XXCoder> never had one break on me. ever
[00:39:02] <furrywolf> they always make poor contact after enough time or enough cycles
[00:39:13] <furrywolf> pinball machines use them and repair techs hate them, as they always melt.
[00:39:41] <XXCoder> interesting. in pcs, including ones I had upgraded often, never had any issues
[00:40:20] <furrywolf> the ones used on mills, pinball machines, etc, aren't the same as the ones used on PC power supplies.
[00:40:51] <XXCoder> ah
[00:41:01] <XXCoder> well poc molex works well.
[00:41:04] <XXCoder> *pc
[00:41:13] <furrywolf> also, the ones on pc power supplies rarely handle more than an amp or two, unlike the ones used for other things...
[00:41:28] <XXCoder> hmm makes sense I guess
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[00:41:48] <furrywolf> the ones used for other things are rated for 12A, but will melt if you actually use them there.
[00:42:03] <furrywolf> they won't melt at first, no... they'll melt several years later, in the middle of an important job.
[00:42:07] <pcw_home> any tin connector will melt if used for too high a current (runaway heat --> oxidation)
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[00:42:33] <furrywolf> they're only rated for something like 20 cycles, and the contact resistance steadily climbs with time even without cycles.
[00:42:51] <furrywolf> add any moisture, and it climbs very, very quickly.
[00:43:00] <pcw_home> They will last for 50 years if rated properly
[00:43:25] <pcw_home> just dont use more than about 30% of rated current
[00:43:28] <XXCoder> modifiction of murphy's law -not only will it happen, it will happen at worse time lol
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[00:44:14] <furrywolf> yep
[00:45:08] <furrywolf> pcw_home: they tend to fail even at no current. :)
[00:45:21] <furrywolf> first they start to develop rectification and other weird problems...
[00:45:33] <pcw_home> not decent high pressure ones
[00:46:30] <XXCoder> http://notalwayslearning.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/99f52bc70c487176cf403f4056ae9e4e.jpg
[00:47:21] <zeeshan> well im glad it was just a loose connector
[00:47:22] <zeeshan> :/
[00:47:57] <furrywolf> if apple made a car, you'd have to shop at the Gas Store (other fuel sources would be prohibited), and only Apple technicians could work on it.
[00:48:54] <furrywolf> and you wouldn't be able to open the hood without a set of pentalobular sockets.
[00:49:23] <XXCoder> yeah
[00:49:29] <XXCoder> sealed engine
[00:49:39] <XXCoder> dash would have no buttons
[00:49:55] <XXCoder> no buttons period
[00:50:18] <andypugh> I have overclocked a Mac by changing motherboard resistors. You just need to be determined.
[00:50:56] <zeeshan> rofl
[00:51:09] <malcom2073> Yeah, I've worked on mac minis, they're not *that* scary to work on
[00:51:14] <andypugh> And I upgraded the graphics card on a G4 Cube. Which was fairly easy once I moved the high components on the card to the other side.
[00:51:32] <furrywolf> lol
[00:51:37] <XXCoder> c4 cube, one that tends to overheat?
[00:52:06] <furrywolf> don't most apple products overheat or catch fire?
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[00:52:11] <andypugh> G4 Cubes were a neat chimney design, didn’t overheat.
[00:53:17] <XXCoder> hmm may have confused it with other one
[00:53:35] <XXCoder> I remember one that had massive heat issues due to plastic surrounding design
[00:54:08] <XXCoder> in least its not that one where you have to lift 200 pound compyter and drop one inch to re-seat chips
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[01:01:18] <XXCoder> anyone need usa to euro plug convertor with limit for 50w? lol
[01:01:25] <XXCoder> step up
[01:01:29] <furrywolf> no
[01:01:39] <XXCoder> yeah doubted it. oh well
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[01:03:27] * furrywolf still isn't quite sure how xxcoder didn't notice how tiny it was. :P
[01:04:11] <XXCoder> well I figured it only doubled voltage, meaning whatever power supply can it can supply, but well didnt see 50w in picture lol
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[01:05:26] <XXCoder> this guy is a fucking asshole. http://notalwaysrelated.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/73b85d98cfbe9a840ab99a5200549da6.jpg
[01:07:18] <furrywolf> .. ok?
[01:07:54] <andypugh> I think it’s funny. Assuming it is staged
[01:08:19] <XXCoder> maybe. dunno. it is funny but really he didnt have to revenge
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[01:09:19] <furrywolf> I wouldn't make the assumption that random internet captions are always accurate.
[01:09:35] <XXCoder> fine.
[01:09:42] <andypugh> Odd age mix. He loks too old to be made to babysit that too-young bother.
[01:09:49] <XXCoder> this if this is real, then this guy is a fucking asshole. http://notalwaysrelated.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/73b85d98cfbe9a840ab99a5200549da6.jpg
[01:10:07] <XXCoder> andypugh: dont assume actually, I know someone with adult kids and baby
[01:10:13] <XXCoder> adult as in in 25s
[01:10:32] <XXCoder> last one is an accient but nevertheless
[01:10:39] <andypugh> Yeah, but when you are 25 your dad doesn’t get to make you babysit. He gets to ask you to.
[01:11:27] <XXCoder> my bro asks me most times but once a while he just assumes
[01:11:41] <XXCoder> had to wait on overtime work few hours as I watched boys
[01:11:45] <andypugh> But yes, captions on photos are often very unrelated to what the photo really shows
[01:11:58] <malcom2073> Nonsense, if it's on the internet, it must be true
[01:12:55] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kidWBeyOMA0
[01:13:02] <andypugh> malcom2073: Well, yes, of course. But what about when the exact same people strike exactly the same poses in the same places during entirely unrelated events? It gets so confusing.
[01:13:02] <furrywolf> who's holding the camera?
[01:13:10] <SpeedEvil> cold forging of bots - I wasn't aware of the exact process
[01:13:11] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: have you ever worked on anything DNA synthesizer related?
[01:13:26] <XXCoder> furrywolf: girlfriend or boyfriend?
[01:13:26] <andypugh> No, but I might know someone eho has
[01:13:29] <XXCoder> heh
[01:13:32] <CaptHindsight> or do you run from the Biologists? :)
[01:14:02] <CaptHindsight> just asking since you work on just about anything
[01:14:03] <XXCoder> word choice. lol (probably faked?) http://notalwaysright.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/53fd1909afdc7a662bdc8bd92eb690c7.jpg
[01:14:28] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: I worked on skin grafts for a while, that was Biology.
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[01:14:55] <malcom2073> I love how it's made
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[01:19:01] <andypugh> Time to snooze, methinks.
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[01:22:26] <zeeshan> XXCoder: rofl
[01:23:10] <furrywolf> I'd assume it's fake, but there's enough stupid religious people out there that who knows...
[01:23:14] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/O95fdB8.jpg
[01:23:19] <XXCoder> I have seen worse fur
[01:23:23] <furrywolf> someone could have been thinking about praying
[01:23:25] <XXCoder> in real signs not picture
[01:23:25] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/E6MluBi.jpg
[01:24:13] <furrywolf> did you tap dry or with cutting fluid?
[01:24:41] <XXCoder> lubed or not l;ubed?
[01:24:41] <zeeshan> cutting fluid
[01:24:49] <zeeshan> manually added as she was tappin
[01:24:52] <furrywolf> also, now try that in 304. :P
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[01:25:11] <Tom_itx> swiss cheese
[01:25:28] <zeeshan> seriously, it took 1hr 45min to make the part
[01:25:33] <zeeshan> imagine having to do it by hand
[01:26:04] <Tom_itx> did you code it or use a subroutine?
[01:26:10] <zeeshan> cam
[01:26:14] <zeeshan> 5 min cam
[01:26:26] <zeeshan> select all holes, choose tool , set depth
[01:26:26] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I got an air tap gun the other day... it could do it by hand without TOOO much pain...
[01:26:32] <Tom_itx> yeah i've got one made for my mill too
[01:26:36] <zeeshan> copy path and paste, select drill tool
[01:26:46] <zeeshan> copy and paste again and select tap tool and rigid tap cycle
[01:26:47] <Tom_itx> you should have used thicker plate
[01:26:50] <zeeshan> done
[01:26:50] <Tom_itx> it will wear
[01:26:56] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: this isn't for me
[01:26:58] <furrywolf> it's like an air drill, but with thumb-controlled pushbuttons, extra gears, and a 2-square-jaw chuck for gipping taps.
[01:26:59] <zeeshan> this is a router table
[01:27:03] <Tom_itx> oh
[01:27:03] <zeeshan> it's not going to wear
[01:27:16] <zeeshan> he's putting plywood pieces on top of theis
[01:27:20] <zeeshan> and then metal on top of that
[01:27:31] <zeeshan> he just wants a fairly flat base with lots of holes for various mounting
[01:27:41] <zeeshan> (for my friend)
[01:28:03] <PetefromTn_> Looks well done man
[01:28:23] <zeeshan> thanks man!
[01:28:32] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:28:38] <malcom2073> Nice
[01:28:42] <malcom2073> That's a lotta holes heh
[01:28:51] <zeeshan> i took a few videos of it
[01:29:02] <zeeshan> but i need to edit them cause i think they'd bore people :P
[01:29:08] <zeeshan> its 30 minutes of tapping
[01:29:14] <malcom2073> SHould've taken one long video, and timelapsed it
[01:29:31] <zeeshan> ill time lapse the spot then drill then tap cycle
[01:29:54] <zeeshan> ive never done any video editting before though
[01:30:00] <zeeshan> just used virtualdub
[01:32:28] <zeeshan> http://www.turbo-flanges.com/images/vband%20gate%20in.JPG
[01:32:35] <zeeshan> i'd like to make this for my exhaust manifold
[01:32:44] <zeeshan> how to measure that tiny angle
[01:32:53] <zeeshan> its about 20 degrees, but i wanna measure it more accurately
[01:33:05] <zeeshan> (used a small protractor)
[01:36:12] <malcom2073> How much does it matter?
[01:36:22] <malcom2073> Could measure top diameter, bottom diameter, and length
[01:36:27] <malcom2073> figure it out from that
[01:37:02] <zeeshan> its for a v-band flange
[01:37:15] <zeeshan> that angle should theoretically only related to the amount of mechanical leverage
[01:38:57] <malcom2073> Do you have a lathe?
[01:39:15] <zeeshan> yea
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[02:05:18] <XXCoder> zeeshan: too bad you dont have a cmm
[02:05:21] <XXCoder> good one
[02:06:29] <XXCoder> zeeshan: there may be a way though, using your cnc machine, touch on surface right by the end, then touch on slope
[02:06:41] <XXCoder> making sure you know distance then you can use trig
[02:06:58] <XXCoder> or even two points on same slope
[02:07:36] <XXCoder> dunno if you can hit 2 points when its so small.
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[02:08:21] <archivist> dti, and some gcode to traverse the angle, adjust gcode for 0 error, you know the angle
[02:09:30] <XXCoder> be simpler to just mesture two points and get angle
[02:09:34] <XXCoder> trig fun
[02:09:47] <archivist> the trig is in the gcode :)
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[02:09:55] <XXCoder> lol
[02:09:59] <zeeshan> might be easier to use a shadowgraph
[02:10:16] <XXCoder> that one with projector round screen
[02:10:18] <archivist> or use a conimeter
[02:10:23] <XXCoder> I use one at work sometimes
[02:10:44] <XXCoder> theres other version that uses glass table and lens on top
[02:11:03] <XXCoder> former looks like it was made in 60s or earlier lol
[02:12:50] <archivist> I found the patent for a conimeter was dated 1944
[02:14:00] <XXCoder> google got weird results for conimeter
[02:14:25] <archivist> http://www.adjustable.archivist.info/patents/GB/1944/GB587175A.pdf
[02:15:15] <Praesmeodymium> goniometer?
[02:16:07] <archivist> no, spelling is conimeter, the makers name was Conimeters Ltd
[02:16:35] <archivist> an oddity I found on ebay
[02:16:50] <Praesmeodymium> yeah reading the article thats... well hey i'm learning :)
[02:17:30] <XXCoder> ahh Optical comparator
[02:18:03] <XXCoder> http://store.gaging.com/image/data/S-T%20Industries/1600_labeled.jpg
[02:18:13] <XXCoder> that is more modern version of one I sue at work
[02:18:36] <XXCoder> many stuff look same but crude looking. the electrics right side is very different
[02:18:41] <XXCoder> just numbers
[02:18:56] <XXCoder> sometimes it is really nice.
[02:20:06] <archivist> but those cannot see a slice of that angle as a shadow
[02:20:25] <XXCoder> if its that outside lip then it can
[02:23:01] <archivist> but it is inside , also Optical Bevel Protractor
[02:23:22] <XXCoder> ahh
[02:23:46] <XXCoder> the inside wall?
[02:24:08] <XXCoder> if so just touch a dial on side, lift exact height then note dial change
[02:24:12] <XXCoder> then trig time
[02:24:56] <XXCoder> of course, he would need to find nearly exact Y then use X for that steps
[02:25:08] <XXCoder> so, basically just dial in find x, y
[02:35:06] <zeeshan> anyone here use virtualdub
[02:35:33] <XXCoder> tried to once
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[02:40:37] <XXCoder> anyone ever watched this movie http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/1/8/0/431180_v1.jpg
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[02:47:25] <malcom2073> It's on my list, but I've never seen it
[02:47:46] <XXCoder> heh its a movie you should watch in least once
[02:47:49] <XXCoder> its so funny
[02:48:36] <malcom2073> That's what I've heard
[02:49:11] <malcom2073> Looks like it's available on netflix, I'll throw it on my dvd list
[02:49:13] <XXCoder> I'm sure it used to be scary back then
[02:49:13] <XXCoder> now well
[03:05:49] <Just_pink> Good evening
[03:08:34] <XXCoder> hey
[03:09:59] <Just_pink> I've start to work on the stack light controller.. and I have no idea what to do with the buzzer.
[03:10:52] <Just_pink> I have 3 colors: Red, Yellow, Green
[03:12:11] <Just_pink> XXCoder: what do you think is the best way to identify them
[03:12:37] <Just_pink> normal operation = green or blinking green?
[03:12:37] <XXCoder> red yellow and green hm
[03:12:55] <XXCoder> most machines I use uses steady light for running
[03:13:03] <XXCoder> flashing for waiting
[03:13:10] <XXCoder> different color in some cases
[03:13:26] <XXCoder> steady green =- running, flashing yellow for waiting, red for error
[03:13:32] <Just_pink> and for example for changing tool.
[03:13:32] <XXCoder> flashing red
[03:13:46] <XXCoder> so far I know, none uses light for toolchange
[03:14:26] <Just_pink> over heating
[03:17:07] <XXCoder> I suppose you can add status for that but dunno, never saw any light status for anything besides running, waiting, and error
[03:17:13] <Just_pink> http://pastebin.com/4uF4rj1g
[03:17:33] <XXCoder> oh yeah forgot this, steady red for maintance alert, for very few machines
[03:17:37] <Just_pink> and whan to add a buzzer?
[03:17:59] <XXCoder> no idea, I'm deaf so I dont know what noises machines make :)
[03:18:14] <Just_pink> I dont have maintance alert
[03:18:21] <XXCoder> im sure error would have beep or something
[03:18:26] <XXCoder> buzz that is
[03:20:14] <XXCoder> http://pastebin.com/KevSVeRq
[03:21:49] <Just_pink> what is the M00 M01?
[03:22:16] <XXCoder> oh gcode for stop and wait, and optional stop
[03:22:59] <Just_pink> so over heating is basically red? (error)
[03:23:16] <XXCoder> most programs has m01 before each tool change so you can check status, m00 if you need to do something while its waiting
[03:23:34] <XXCoder> for example you need to add bolts then remove clamps for outside border of part cutting
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[03:23:48] <XXCoder> overheating yeah
[03:24:22] <Just_pink> I dont have tool changer (yet) so I want to see it on the stack light and get some beeps..
[03:24:59] <XXCoder> configuring it and stuff isn't what I know, unfortunatly, just what light status standards seems to be.
[03:26:14] <Just_pink> what about the E stop?
[03:27:34] <XXCoder> good question, never used e-stop so far
[03:27:58] <XXCoder> machine I used at old work I did use it, it used steady red
[03:28:22] <XXCoder> but otherwise dunno
[03:29:09] <Just_pink> what is the "hold" for the blinking green"
[03:30:26] <Just_pink> when I'm pause the machine during an operation?
[03:30:27] <XXCoder> dunno that was your orginial text
[03:31:24] <XXCoder> well if you can decide I would think blinking green is nice for paused, m00 or m01
[03:31:32] <XXCoder> while blinking yellow is good for completed
[03:32:33] <Tom_itx> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_light
[03:33:32] <XXCoder> interesting
[03:33:45] <XXCoder> I wonder why flashing yellow is used for "idle status" for many machines.
[03:34:12] <XXCoder> in fact, only 3 machines at work don't have that, and 2 of em don't even have yellow light
[03:34:25] <XXCoder> and third one I suspect has yellow but burned out
[03:36:20] <Just_pink> It is legal to power up more than 1 color at the same time?
[03:36:40] <XXCoder> one machine does that, with maintance needed red light and flashing yellow for waiting
[03:37:00] <XXCoder> other machine does that briefly as it switches from running to waiting, but just timing thing
[03:37:22] <XXCoder> otherwise I dont see much of more than one light
[03:38:43] <Just_pink> but for "run completed" it is "OK" + "Stop" so.. red + green?
[03:39:09] <XXCoder> no, red status isnt used for normal stop
[03:39:12] <XXCoder> only e-stop
[03:39:23] <XXCoder> or some other bad machine stopping error
[03:39:43] <XXCoder> for example axle following error it would stop program and turn on red
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[03:41:56] <Just_pink> so.. the E-stop loop is red, acording to the wiki yellow is over heating,
[03:41:58] <Just_pink> normal stop or hold can be steady yellow?
[03:42:13] <Just_pink> blinking green for runing
[03:42:39] <XXCoder> its better to have steady green for running
[03:42:46] <XXCoder> that seem to be standard
[03:42:59] <Just_pink> but for me blinking mean moving..
[03:43:19] <XXCoder> blinking yellow for non-critical error (apparently) or not doing anything (completed program)
[03:45:07] <Just_pink> I think blinking green = running, solid green + buzzer = operator required like tool charge complete job..
[03:45:43] <XXCoder> reality is that you can decide whatever you want, I was just saying what I usually see at machines I use at work
[03:46:37] <Just_pink> I want to be close to the real standtard (like the wiki page)
[03:46:57] <Just_pink> I've make the indicators and the buttons the same way.
[03:47:05] <XXCoder> cool :)
[03:47:22] <Just_pink> what is "non-critical error"
[03:47:36] <XXCoder> for example overheating but machine is still working fine
[03:49:26] <Just_pink> the HMI that manage the temperature have 3 stages, normal, overheat, E-stop signal
[03:49:54] <Just_pink> normal - nothing
[03:50:39] <Just_pink> over heat go to the yellow, E-stop - kill the power, and power up the red
[03:55:06] <Just_pink> basiclay it is smater than that
[03:55:25] <XXCoder> just be sure not to "crowd" light status, for example 3 different status for one light status
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[04:08:02] <Just_pink> XXCoder: http://pastebin.com/h2aGNbWB
[04:08:40] <XXCoder> solid red for running?
[04:12:21] <Just_pink> http://pastebin.ca/3075263
[04:12:32] <Just_pink> maybe now it will work?
[04:12:45] <Just_pink> XXCoder: ^
[04:12:58] <XXCoder> yeah looks ok
[04:14:07] <Just_pink> I can make several types of melodies / beeps for it..
[04:14:33] <XXCoder> use metal rock as normal running. it IS cutting metal. ;)
[04:14:34] <XXCoder> joking
[04:15:12] <Just_pink> ode to joy for finish part, vivaldi storm for error
[04:15:30] <Just_pink> I'm sure elmo drives will like the idea
[04:15:50] <XXCoder> probably. dunno, don't really know music :)
[04:16:50] <XXCoder> geeeez http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-high-quality-UNO-R3-MEGA328P-CH340G-for-Arduino-Compatible-NO-USB-CABLE/32247080125.html
[04:16:51] <Just_pink> in elmo every series line of product have music instrument name
[04:16:56] <XXCoder> not even 3 bucks
[04:17:38] <Just_pink> I dont like the uno.
[04:17:43] <Just_pink> nano is cute.
[04:19:24] <Just_pink> what do you think about manage the signal error also over SCADA?
[04:19:43] <Just_pink> over kill or nice idea?
[04:20:15] <XXCoder> I don't know, dont even know what scada is :)
[04:20:51] <Just_pink> better not to know..
[04:21:22] <XXCoder> lol ok
[04:21:54] <Just_pink> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCADA
[04:22:49] <XXCoder> interesting
[04:22:56] <Just_pink> yes.
[04:27:47] <Just_pink> I have old style door bell.. with very nice coils in it.. all the time I'm think about it as a potential sink EDM
[04:28:04] <Just_pink> XXCoder: ^
[04:28:30] <XXCoder> lol
[04:28:52] <XXCoder> make sure it sounds different from your door bell ;)
[04:31:57] <Just_pink> I want to make sink holes for nuts in aluminum. and EDM is rally the coolest way to do it.
[04:32:09] <Just_pink> really*
[04:33:06] <Just_pink> XXCoder: you know how to do OR gate in arduino?
[04:33:19] <XXCoder> i still don't own a arduino
[04:33:31] <Just_pink> do you want nano?
[04:33:59] <XXCoder> dunno, but right now I am waiting for CHiP a complete computer on small board
[04:34:02] <XXCoder> got it for $9
[04:34:10] <XXCoder> theyre shipping in NOV I think
[04:34:34] <XXCoder> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer
[04:34:57] <Just_pink> it's nice..
[04:35:16] <XXCoder> yeah. mine will be just basic CHiP. my bro got the pocket one
[04:35:22] <Just_pink> but get arduino.. very easy and a-lot od doc in the net.
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[04:35:57] <XXCoder> yeah. I do have projector I can't wait to use with CHiP! :D
[04:36:08] <XXCoder> eyeclops one lol it was junk but useful junk
[04:36:30] <XXCoder> one thing I want to do is upgrade its light source
[04:38:44] <Just_pink> what do you do with broken projector?
[04:39:02] <XXCoder> broken? nah it works just fune
[04:39:04] <XXCoder> fine
[04:39:45] <XXCoder> it was toy projector, it was crappy and nobody bought it at $150 orginial price
[04:40:01] <XXCoder> but at $50 some bought, I got one at $25
[04:40:06] <XXCoder> one of my best buys
[04:40:29] <XXCoder> my projector logged over thousand hours lol it was before I had job to go to
[04:43:11] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Eyeclops-04959-EyeClops-Mini-Projector/dp/B0024I8H42
[04:43:16] <XXCoder> lol
[04:43:38] <XXCoder> pictures is lies, it is simply not that bright
[04:43:50] <XXCoder> my flashlight can do brighter than it lol
[04:46:32] <Just_pink> look like junk
[04:50:43] <XXCoder> it is
[04:50:48] <XXCoder> but it works well
[04:50:59] <Just_pink> http://www.turnxon.com/articles/articles_2.html
[04:51:11] <XXCoder> though I want to upgrade its light source so it can be brighter
[04:51:28] <Just_pink> look the the yellow / green drawing
[04:51:35] <XXCoder> yeah
[04:51:45] <Just_pink> XXCoder: it's lcd or dlp?
[04:51:47] <XXCoder> interesting
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[04:52:14] <XXCoder> its a method to remove material
[04:52:30] <XXCoder> by electricity rather than physical removal by tool like most cncs do
[04:53:34] <XXCoder> facepalm. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqHrTtvFFIs
[04:54:33] <Just_pink> XXCoder: the projector is LCD or DLP?
[04:54:44] <Just_pink> I know this video..
[04:54:47] <XXCoder> eyeclops? led yeah
[04:56:50] <Just_pink> but what make the video..
[04:56:59] <Just_pink> the pixels..
[04:57:19] <XXCoder> basically it is lcd screen inside with led lighting behind it
[04:57:30] <XXCoder> the resultant light is focused by lens on screen
[04:57:54] <XXCoder> you can make one using your old lcd montior, though it will be quite large
[04:59:16] <Just_pink> I dont have a wall to use it..
[04:59:36] <Just_pink> everything full with tools here..
[05:01:13] <XXCoder> yeah, it needs room to be very dark lol
[05:01:33] <XXCoder> however if you make your own projector you can simply use very bright light
[05:05:10] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=v0ZXnoKbxx8
[05:05:12] <XXCoder> dang
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[05:11:32] <Just_pink> XXCoder: I want to make one of tham..
[05:11:37] <Just_pink> look soo nice.
[05:11:45] <XXCoder> http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=929081
[05:11:50] <XXCoder> more videos
[05:12:52] <Just_pink> XXCoder: dont start with me my other hobby is carbon and fiber glass.
[05:13:05] <XXCoder> superlight planes!
[05:13:10] <XXCoder> lol
[05:14:35] <Just_pink> what is superlight ?
[05:15:08] <XXCoder> basically very light craft (compared to more normal weight ones)
[05:16:04] <Just_pink> I want flying wing with 1 motor 2 servos
[05:16:23] <XXCoder> I bet you can get away with just one
[05:16:32] <XXCoder> one motor and one servo I mean
[05:17:20] <englishman> Fpv is pretty simple stuff these days
[05:17:34] <Just_pink> XXCoder: how 1 servo?
[05:18:24] <Just_pink> you have just 2 ailerons
[05:18:48] <englishman> Elevons :x
[05:19:00] <XXCoder> hmm I may be wrong
[05:19:04] <Just_pink> http://api.ning.com/files/OfjlpdQiogL5qu5sk3bW5oPyRnjCs9zkoP4RyK6vZEtD498Fvn8WM2AzNPfC7UIAklhcrwjYck28-4DsKstLeA__/IMG_0924.jpg
[05:19:08] <XXCoder> englishman: yeah?
[05:19:36] <XXCoder> not bad :) I want it but I doubt I can use it unless it has image stabilizers because I get dizzy and sick easyily
[05:20:33] <Just_pink> pull 2 servos - you go up, push 2 servos go down, 1 up 1 down roll, 1 up 1 zero turn
[05:20:52] <Just_pink> with 1 you can just do rolls
[05:21:15] <englishman> Sure here's some crappy footage from last year. https://youtu.be/SX7Mn6uGALU
[05:21:40] <XXCoder> Just_pink: yeah thats what I re-considered
[05:23:17] <Just_pink> but first I need a stack light :(
[05:24:12] <Just_pink> somo times I'm think way I'm doing that soooo hard and complicated.
[05:24:17] <Just_pink> some*
[05:28:15] <XXCoder> well if you enjoy it why not
[05:28:37] <XXCoder> gonna go, be back in bit
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[06:21:00] <XXCoder> back
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[06:45:19] <Just_pink> XXCoder: I'm still here working on the code (hate to program)
[06:45:27] <XXCoder> lol
[06:45:49] <XXCoder> I actually rather program but I dont know enough to make living on programming
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[06:48:52] <Deejay> moi
[06:49:12] <Deejay> +n
[06:49:13] <Deejay> ;)
[06:49:48] <XXCoder> hey
[06:53:42] <Just_pink> hi Deejay
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[08:21:28] <kengu> hmm.. is it some emp or what is it then causing steppers to jump when ever laser is firing
[08:22:23] <Just_pink> EMP?
[08:22:39] <Just_pink> kengu: ^
[08:23:04] <kengu> emp as electromagnetic pulse but more in this case as some electro interference
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[08:23:32] <Just_pink> what drivers you using?
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[08:25:32] <Just_pink> kengu: ?
[08:26:16] <kengu> i seem to have lost the photos on those and for some reason it is not in the documentation.. but some chinese what ever came with the cutter in the first place
[08:26:27] <kengu> I thought I had the data stored
[08:26:39] <Just_pink> someone here know arduino?
[08:27:11] <archivist> kengu, improve grounding, screening etc
[08:27:27] <kengu> uhm.. well.. the data was for plasma cutter actually. the lasercutter might be using a more all-in-one board for the steppers
[08:27:28] <Deejay> and power supply :)
[08:28:00] <kengu> archivist: there is grounding everywhere and boxes and cases everywhere
[08:28:11] <archivist> is the laser supply also driving the steppers
[08:28:43] <kengu> nope. complitely different source
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[08:29:17] <archivist> but is the laser current going through the same ground
[08:29:54] <archivist> anyway it is EMI not EMP
[08:30:11] <kengu> archivist: that is what I was after (;
[08:31:45] <archivist> common grounds means the stepper driver input can see the noise as a step/dir signal
[08:31:54] <kengu> laser hv power supply and other electronics meet at wall outlets
[08:32:56] <archivist> there is also electromagnetic radiated noise, and capacitively coupled noise
[08:34:20] <archivist> those two need separation, screening and/or a grounded shield in between
[08:37:23] <archivist> there are two parts to noise as well, the amount emitted and the immunity a device has to local noise
[08:38:44] <archivist> I have seen some bad stepper driver/breakout board combinations
[08:38:45] <kengu> yeah. I was hoping to try with different stepper drivers but did not find any replacements off the shelf
[08:39:24] <kengu> so it is on hold on that at the moment
[08:39:26] <archivist> make sure you dont have double opto between the breakout and driver
[08:39:39] <XXCoder> mybe both has its own current stabilizer
[08:39:50] <XXCoder> forgot what its called exactly, it smooths current out
[08:40:33] <archivist> with an opton on both the breakout and driver then the driver is not driven hard enough and becomes noise prone
[08:40:49] <archivist> with an opto
[08:52:59] <monkeyisl> mach3 board can't be done with usb?
[08:53:52] <archivist> asking for mach support in here ?
[08:54:24] <monkeyisl> sup,, i don't know what i;m doing so..
[08:55:05] <archivist> usb is bad news for cnc due to latency problems
[08:56:33] <monkeyisl> is there somethine like arduino board for cnc?
[08:57:44] <XXCoder> yes
[08:57:48] <XXCoder> arduino
[08:57:54] <archivist> nothing we recommend in here
[08:58:03] <XXCoder> yeah
[08:58:13] <XXCoder> heard of raspberry pi for cnc controller though
[08:58:17] <archivist> in here we use linuxcnc
[08:58:29] <monkeyisl> ahh
[08:58:36] <archivist> more robust. more axes
[08:59:00] <XXCoder> even supports 4d milling. nah kidding
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[14:09:17] <Tom_itx> quiet morning
[14:18:09] <JT-Shop> fixing to go for a ride
[14:18:39] <Tom_itx> seems there was another 3.9 this AM
[14:18:44] <Tom_itx> http://earthquaketrack.com/p/united-states/kansas/recent
[14:18:57] <Tecan> how far away can quakes usually be felt ?
[14:19:10] <Tom_itx> we feel those in Ks
[14:19:30] <Tom_itx> it depends on the soil
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[14:32:48] <Tecan> 6.0 in Indonesia this morning too.
[14:34:47] <Tecan> do the deeper ones have a bigger epicenter ?
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[16:53:20] <zeeshan> ZzzZZz
[16:53:51] <Tom_itx> up too late partying?
[16:53:57] <zeeshan> no
[16:58:01] <zeeshan> im attempting at my first video w/ some video editting
[16:58:30] <malcom2073> Sweet
[16:58:37] <malcom2073> timelapse of the drilling of that plate?
[16:58:40] <zeeshan> yes
[16:58:41] <zeeshan> haha
[16:58:48] <malcom2073> cool
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[17:20:40] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, what are you using to edit it?
[17:21:05] <Tom_itx> and does it let you combine multiple clips?
[17:24:20] <zeeshan> virtualdub
[17:24:21] <zeeshan> and yes
[17:24:41] <zeeshan> its very picky though
[17:24:49] <zeeshan> not the easiest to use software, but hey its free
[17:26:46] <Tom_itx> picky how?4
[17:40:39] <malcom2073> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KLNJ8d8Vqc
[17:40:44] <malcom2073> Amazing amount of waste
[17:42:40] <andypugh> It makes no sense at all to machine an engine block from solid. Except that the word “billet” sells parts.
[17:42:58] <malcom2073> You can easily charge twice as much, putting billet in there
[17:42:59] <malcom2073> if not more
[17:43:15] <Tom_itx> malcom2073, we cut first article trailing links for landing gear from a Ti billet about that size
[17:43:23] <Tom_itx> 6 ea
[17:43:48] <Tom_itx> before the forgings were approved and produced
[17:44:51] <zeeshan> andypugh: how would you do it?
[17:44:59] <Tom_itx> iirc, about a week or more ea to macine
[17:45:04] <Tom_itx> running 24//7
[17:45:29] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, make a casting
[17:45:35] <zeeshan> cast doesnt make sense for a one off
[17:45:49] <zeeshan> which is what a lot of billet blocks are
[17:45:51] <zeeshan> "one offs"
[17:45:52] <Tom_itx> you have control of grain direction may be an advantage
[17:45:58] <zeeshan> also a casting is weaker
[17:46:12] <malcom2073> Most high performance engine failures are not in the block though
[17:46:21] <andypugh> Thinking about it, the first prototypes of our new car had suspension arms machined from solid. But that was by way of checking geometry before comitting to forging dies.
[17:46:25] <malcom2073> Or rather, not the block metal failing
[17:46:35] <zeeshan> forging dies and casting dies are$$$$$$$$
[17:46:45] <zeeshan> and casting is still an art , after all these years
[17:46:48] <zeeshan> your first die might not work
[17:46:55] <zeeshan> needs mods, then pour, then needs mods etc
[17:46:56] <andypugh> For a one-off engine block, 3d print it :-)
[17:47:04] <Tom_itx> andypugh, same here.. they tried to use exhisting forgings but they weren't strong enough
[17:47:08] <Sync_> or machine from solid
[17:47:14] <zeeshan> but i agree with you, a lot of ricers buy an engine block that says billet
[17:47:20] <zeeshan> they have no clue why, but they know its bad ass
[17:47:21] <zeeshan> lol
[17:47:42] <zeeshan> malcom2073: ive seen failures where the main rod cops resonate
[17:47:44] <zeeshan> *caps
[17:47:49] <zeeshan> causing a connecting rod failure
[17:48:03] <zeeshan> you'll hear terms like "6 bolt mains"
[17:48:09] <malcom2073> zeeshan: That'
[17:48:14] <malcom2073> That's a failrue of not having enough bolts in the mains :P
[17:48:17] <zeeshan> describing how a block is strong
[17:48:19] <malcom2073> Block strength won't help that nearly as much as more bolts
[17:48:22] <zeeshan> no its not only that
[17:48:25] <zeeshan> but its cause the block deflects
[17:48:34] <zeeshan> you need more meat there
[17:48:39] <andypugh> This is how we make one-off engine blocks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MaVaqNr3U
[17:48:48] <malcom2073> More meat is a design defect, not a material defect
[17:49:13] <zeeshan> andypugh: if you compare the time to do that method
[17:49:18] <zeeshan> and machining a billet
[17:49:21] <zeeshan> do you think they'd be very close?
[17:49:47] <zeeshan> malcom2073: i understand, i am just saying blocks do cause failures
[17:49:57] <zeeshan> they're not as big as rod or piston failure, but they do fail :P
[17:50:01] <malcom2073> Sure, edges cases are everywhere :-P
[17:50:04] <Tom_itx> don't they have to let castings age?
[17:50:05] <andypugh> Printing is faster. Shipping to the foundry adds some time.
[17:50:15] <zeeshan> how much faster?
[17:50:19] <zeeshan> 20% 50%
[17:50:25] <zeeshan> ~
[17:50:33] <andypugh> But, you basically can’t machine an effective water jacket.
[17:50:52] <zeeshan> those fancy 5 axis do some crazy work on water jackets
[17:50:52] <Tom_itx> they use cylinder inserts
[17:50:55] <Sync_> that's why they all use inserts
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[17:52:26] <andypugh> The reason we use printed moulds is is that the bulk-production parts will be castings.
[17:53:10] <Tom_itx> are they testing the mold as well as the castings?
[17:53:32] <andypugh> I don’t know, It isnt the area I work in.
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[17:58:55] <Tom_itx> i wonder what type of aluminum they cast with for blocks
[18:00:26] <zeeshan> i know some use as356
[18:00:28] <zeeshan> a356
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[18:09:33] <furrywolf> picked up a treadmill motor for $2 yesterday... no controller though.
[18:16:50] <furrywolf> hrmm. apparantly, if you search for machinery's handbook on ebay, it suggests you really meant "macbook". I wonder how much apple paid for that...
[18:17:14] <furrywolf> mine is AWOL, picking up another
[18:22:43] <furrywolf> it starts with mac, and ends in book, but I didn't typo the "hinery's hand" in the middle. lol
[18:23:48] <furrywolf> is there any reason not to pick up a ten year old copy? I don't think anything has changed. lol
[18:24:05] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR3.TRC2.A0.H0.XMachinery%27s+handbook.TRS0&_nkw=Machinery%27s+handbook&_sacat=0
[18:24:21] <Tom_itx> just new materials or processes would be it
[18:24:35] <Tom_itx> mine's 25th edition
[18:25:17] <Tom_itx> another good one is 'machinists' ready reference'
[18:25:39] <furrywolf> I don't remember what edition mine was. it had a hard red cover and fit in a drawer on my toolbox. I used it maybe twice. lol
[18:25:50] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=Machinery%27s+handbook&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xmachinists%27+ready+reference.TRS0&_nkw=machinists%27+ready+reference&_sacat=0
[18:26:23] <Tom_itx> quite handy
[18:26:53] <Tom_itx> i have the 8th on that one
[18:27:07] <furrywolf> 29th edition appears to be current
[18:28:13] <furrywolf> I really should dig my toolbox out of storage... it's in there SOMEWHERE. heh.
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[18:47:49] <Sync_> heh.
[18:47:58] <Sync_> finally got around finishing up the rotary
[18:48:24] <Sync_> squished the bellows coupling back into shape, if it fatigues I have to think about it again
[18:48:42] <archivist> 13th ed is good enough for me :)
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[18:50:35] <Sync_> http://sync-hv.de/~tmp/lehmann3.jpg bellows in question
[18:50:49] <Spida> somebody got experience in milling foam, like for putting in transport cases like the famous peli cases?
[18:55:29] <furrywolf> I don't know if you can mill foam...
[18:55:32] <Rab> Not I, but this is pretty wicked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcYrAh_c9xw
[18:55:37] <furrywolf> seems like it'd tear before it cuts
[18:55:55] <furrywolf> at least the pelican case I have has very soft egg-carton foam that I can't imagine cutting.
[18:56:47] <Rab> Looks like a reciprocating knife is state-of-the-art for cutting foam rubber (mechanically).
[18:57:05] <furrywolf> that'd work a lot better than trying to mill it.
[18:57:23] <Sync_> Rab: waterjet
[18:57:26] <Rab> Maybe it could be lasercut, but I can imagine some really nasty scenarios.
[18:57:30] <furrywolf> how many identical pieces do you need? could you use two layers and die-cut the top one?
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[18:58:03] <Rab> I strongly suspect the Pelican pick-n-place foam is diecut.
[18:58:28] <Rab> Pick-n-pluck?
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[18:59:10] <furrywolf> do you have an indexable spindle? make a sawzall blade extender, feed it through the spindle, strap your sawzall on top, grind a dull sawzall blade to a knife edge? :)
[18:59:57] <furrywolf> or a jigsaw
[18:59:59] <Rab> That's essentially what this is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ia_yJns4_tE
[19:00:48] <furrywolf> the stuff that came with my pelican case is very low density open-cell foam
[19:00:55] <Rab> That foam may be more rigid, it's closed-cell.
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[19:01:43] <Rab> CNC contoured open-cell foam rubber would be awesome, I'd like to see that done.
[19:02:05] <Sync_> I had that done for one of my peli cases
[19:02:08] <Sync_> they used a waterjet
[19:02:29] <Rab> Sync_, 2D layers?
[19:02:51] <Sync_> they have a 5 axis flow
[19:02:58] <Rab> ooo
[19:03:38] <Sync_> they are affordable to lease and with foam it pays off quickly because everybody wants 3d shaped foam
[19:03:48] <furrywolf> I'd probably invent something with a jigsaw stuck to the top of my quill
[19:04:07] <archivist> hot wire cutter
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[19:05:39] <furrywolf> I tried hot wire on ABS once. that did not work. lol
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[19:08:03] <archivist> there is a special kins in linuxcnc for hotwire
[19:11:12] <Spida> I have used pick-n-pluck before, but I doubt it will be stable enough for what I intend to do.
[19:11:35] <Spida> I have heard using a brush for milling foam could work, though http://www.fursuit.de/cms/index.php/Bild:SibSerag_Schaumstoff_fraesen.jpg
[19:12:03] <zeeshan> Spida: why are you trying to mill foam?
[19:12:14] <zeeshan> are you trying to make a prototype/
[19:12:27] <furrywolf> yay furries. :)
[19:13:22] <Spida> no, I am looking for somebody to do it for me :-) (if we can agree on some kind of payment)
[19:13:33] <zeeshan> what are you trying to make
[19:13:41] <zeeshan> they make special millable foam
[19:13:48] <Spida> foam protection for sticking a microscope in a peli case
[19:13:54] <zeeshan> oh
[19:14:21] <archivist> ich would have done that on his wire cutter
[19:14:21] <furrywolf> the owens-corning pink foam feels like it'd mill really well, but that's probably too firm for your purpose.
[19:14:27] <furrywolf> I tried using it to make a radome once.
[19:14:30] <zeeshan> where did ich go
[19:14:32] <Spida> i have heard soaking the foam with water and freezing it might be an option... I see several downsides of that, though
[19:14:33] <zeeshan> havent seen him in here
[19:14:52] <furrywolf> hrmm, frozen saturated foam... interesting idea, at least. worth trying. :P
[19:14:53] <SpeedEvil> http://imgur.com/gallery/Fb5Sfxq cloud printing
[19:14:59] <archivist> Spida, often protection stuff is made in layers then glued
[19:15:11] <CaptHindsight> is it open cell foam?
[19:16:13] <Spida> archivist: since the largest part in the end will be something like 35*50*30cm, it has to be glued, yes. at least because foam in this size seems to be hard to source
[19:16:15] <furrywolf> set your scroll saw next to your mill, build a mill table that sticks out over the scrollsaw? :)
[19:16:45] <furrywolf> is that helium-blown soap bubbles? lol
[19:16:47] <CaptHindsight> just pour your own foam from liquid
[19:16:58] <archivist> scroll saw or band saw
[19:17:30] <furrywolf> that's another idea... just make a mold and pour two-part foam into it.
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[19:18:14] <archivist> and make me one for my theodolite :)
[19:18:35] <CaptHindsight> sourcing small amounts of urethane foam is always a pain and expensive
[19:19:14] <Spida> and I assume that I need several kinds of foam. the microscope baseplate is a 270*370*7mm aluminium plate, and I will probably need rather hard foam for that
[19:19:26] <CaptHindsight> what do they pack styrofoam in when they ship it?
[19:19:44] <furrywolf> wrap the microscope in a bunch of bubble wrap and stuff it in the case. :P
[19:19:54] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: cardboard. :P
[19:19:54] <SpeedEvil> There is always the cryogenic milling option
[19:20:08] <CaptHindsight> CO2 chilled
[19:20:14] <Spida> furrywolf: I am trying to avoid taking several minutes for packing
[19:20:44] <furrywolf> Spida: if this is just a one-off thing, your best bet is probably a sharp kitchen knife and ten minutes of manual labor.
[19:21:07] <archivist> scalpel
[19:21:11] <SpeedEvil> chainsaw
[19:21:22] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: i like the idea of pouring
[19:21:23] <zeeshan> :)
[19:21:39] <zeeshan> and i also like furrywolf's idea
[19:21:54] <furrywolf> which one? I've come up with about a half dozen. :P
[19:21:59] <zeeshan> the last one
[19:22:22] <furrywolf> awww. you don't like my idea of a jigsaw with an extension down through the spindle? :P
[19:22:28] <zeeshan> no
[19:22:37] <zeeshan> :-)
[19:23:47] <furrywolf> Spida: I suspect that if you just did it by hand, assuming you only need one or several of these cases, you'd be done in less time than this conversation. :)
[19:24:36] <CaptHindsight> PVA and popcorn
[19:25:17] <furrywolf> how about a cutting torch and a CO2 blanket? :P
[19:25:57] <CaptHindsight> shredded newsprint and hay
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[19:28:01] <furrywolf> how about a precision spray foam 3d printer? :P
[19:28:46] <archivist> you have to make the 3d scanner first to know the shape
[19:30:30] <Rab> Plenty of custom packing done by suspending the object in the case and filling plastic bags with expand-o-foam.
[19:31:08] <furrywolf> Rab: they even have pre-foamed bags you can buy for that. you break a little bag inside the big bag, and presto, bag-o-foam.
[19:31:17] <Rab> furrywolf, nice.
[19:33:02] <Rab> No reason that couldn't be done with some extra attention to detail, making nice sectional pads with handgrips for removal etc.
[19:33:36] <SpeedEvil> I've wondered in the past about instant popper
[19:34:00] <SpeedEvil> you take one single kernel of popcorn, and microwave heat it very very fast till it pops
[19:34:03] <Rab> Line with satin or velvet. Green felt for serious scientific business.
[19:34:14] <SpeedEvil> Rab: flock
[19:34:30] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: that doesn't seem useful or practical.
[19:34:41] <Rab> SpeedEvil, you don't want it coming off in the optical instruments.
[19:35:01] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: single servings of popcorn?
[19:35:04] <furrywolf> packing peanuts! :P
[19:35:16] <Rab> SpeedEvil, a stream of single kernels dropping through a microwave chamber?
[19:35:24] <SpeedEvil> Rab: pretty much
[19:35:31] * furrywolf absolutely hates people who ship things in packing peanuts without bagging it first, so they're mashed inside of every single opening, air vent, connector, fitting,...
[19:35:39] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: that too
[19:35:53] <Rab> It would be elite, expensive, and impractical, like Dyson products.
[19:36:13] <SpeedEvil> Rab: They have a mixer tap. For $3000
[19:36:52] <Rab> I undertook an experiment to use popcorn as a biodegradeable packing material, but it performed poorly.
[19:37:21] <furrywolf> use the starch peanuts if you want that.
[19:37:51] <Rab> SpeedEvil, does it aerosolize wet fecal matter as quickly as the wall-mounted Airblade(tm)?
[19:37:52] <CaptHindsight> clear hopper to hold the kernels, microwave maser to blast them as they free fall, air gun to fire them directly into your mouth
[19:38:26] <Sync_> Rab: why not use those cornstarch peanuts?
[19:38:28] <CaptHindsight> sounds like a poopstarter
[19:38:34] <Rab> CaptHindsight, not seeing butter/bacon grease/duck fat in that scenario.
[19:38:40] <Rab> Or salt, for that matter.
[19:39:03] * furrywolf doesn't like popcorn
[19:39:25] <Rab> Sync_, this was circa 1990...we hadn't heard of the starch peanuts, if they'd even been invented.
[19:40:19] <CaptHindsight> Rab: what varieties of popcorn did you try?
[19:40:20] <Rab> The starch peanuts still aren't super performant compared to polystyrene.
[19:40:31] <furrywolf> I kinda like the spray foam 3d printer idea... the door-and-window low-pressure foam doesn't expand too much... extrude it through a tiny nozzle in lots of passes...
[19:40:36] <Rab> CaptHindsight, cheap kind from Sam's Club.
[19:40:59] <SpeedEvil> Polystyrene isn't that bad to extrude
[19:41:01] <furrywolf> $6 a can from any hardware store, no mail-order consumables...
[19:41:07] <SpeedEvil> If you could get the pellets
[19:41:09] <Rab> But the nicer organic varieties all seem to produce a smaller, harder puff.
[19:41:20] <SpeedEvil> The nice pellets are polystyrene, soaked in butane.
[19:41:25] <SpeedEvil> (IIRC)
[19:41:32] <SpeedEvil> you simply extrude it and it expands
[19:41:47] <Rab> Can you recapture the butane?
[19:42:00] <SpeedEvil> Rab: 'yes'
[19:42:01] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: if you're ever bored, drop a block of styrofoam in a bowl of petrol.
[19:42:04] <SpeedEvil> but you don't want to
[19:42:13] <Sync_> it is not worth it
[19:42:25] <Sync_> if it were helium, maybe
[19:42:34] <Rab> furrywolf, or just hit it with a heat gun, unless you're trying to make napalm.
[19:42:34] <zeeshan> you guys dont know spida isn't even responding anymore
[19:42:38] <zeeshan> and you're still talking about this
[19:42:38] <zeeshan> haha
[19:42:49] <Sync_> is there a problem?
[19:42:50] <zeeshan> (dont = do)
[19:42:55] <zeeshan> yes i have a problem!
[19:43:07] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he/she is probably off taking my advice and just cutting it by hand. :P
[19:43:11] <zeeshan> haha
[19:44:54] <furrywolf> I'm more thinking of a general-purpose device... a 3d printer that used hardware store spray foam could make low-precision casting forms and stuff quite cheaply.
[19:45:45] <furrywolf> one problem is the cans are single-use-only, so you'd have to wait until you had several things to make if you were making small things
[19:45:46] <Rab> http://www.kaylamatheus.com/selected-portfolio-spray-foam-printer.html
[19:45:53] <furrywolf> another problem is it tends to expand a bit after spraying
[19:45:56] <CaptHindsight> mill with two nozzles for 2 part urethane in place of spindle
[19:46:09] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: that requires expensive mail-order foam
[19:46:14] <Rab> Scara arm, too.
[19:46:20] <CaptHindsight> then people can argue over controlling it with a PC or *dunio
[19:47:00] <furrywolf> Rab: that website seems to suck.
[19:47:14] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: hardware store foam was more expensive per cubic foot last I looked
[19:47:31] <Rab> furrywolf, academic art design.
[19:47:56] <furrywolf> it's trying to load some video that doesn't work, and it has dark grey text on a dark grey background, utterly unreadable.
[19:47:59] <CaptHindsight> foam sprayed backpack like in Ghostbusters
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[19:48:26] <zeeshan> but the website looks pretty
[19:48:46] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: quite likely, but much easier to get. they have 12oz for $3.99 last I checked...
[19:48:46] <CaptHindsight> we forgot to mention marshmallow foam
[19:48:48] <zeeshan> that person who designed that website
[19:48:56] <zeeshan> i cant tell if he/she is a man or a woman
[19:49:00] <zeeshan> http://www.kaylamatheus.com/engagements.html
[19:49:19] <zeeshan> nm
[19:49:33] <Rab> Interesting, I could see the video but didn't realize it had text until I enabled jawascript.
[19:49:42] <Rab> (Vimeo already allowed)
[19:49:43] <furrywolf> something wrong with being androgynous? :P
[19:49:57] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: does it really matter anymore, documents should just say human or not human
[19:50:08] <zeeshan> ofcourse it matters
[19:50:34] <furrywolf> Rab: more proof the site sucks. :P
[19:51:11] <furrywolf> vimeo videos never work, so that explains it. apparantly web standards are not their strong point.
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[19:51:38] <Rab> Shrug, works for me on Slackware.
[19:52:10] <Rab> The text is a series of transparent PNGs: http://www.kaylamatheus.com/uploads/8/4/4/3/8443069/3801900_orig.png
[19:52:13] <CaptHindsight> what would be the criteria for male vs female? genetic test result, visual inspection (2 out of, 3 etc), message from Jesus my gardener?
[19:52:31] <Rab> CaptHindsight, whether zeeshan feels good about fapping.
[19:52:39] <furrywolf> looking at hisher pictures, it has serious resolution issues.
[19:52:51] <furrywolf> Rab: LOL. that would also explain the high degree of sucking.
[19:53:21] <zeeshan> rab nailed it
[19:53:28] <zeeshan> :D
[19:53:43] <furrywolf> the text is largely unreadable on the equally-dark background.
[19:53:59] <furrywolf> I don't see how people can spend so much work to make websites not work.
[19:54:31] <furrywolf> If you don't know how to write a website, you'd think the default would be to just stuff some text between a pair of body tags. But, nooo... people spend many hours making it worse.
[19:54:40] <archivist> easy, use js and other rubbish
[19:54:59] <Rab> She just used this: http://www.weebly.com/
[19:55:39] <furrywolf> people complained the average geocities-hosted website was bad, but I'll take them over ones like this one any day.
[19:55:49] <furrywolf> they WORKED.
[19:55:54] <archivist> those make website sites have always sucked even in html days
[19:56:15] <kengu> Rab: I have used weebly
[19:57:41] <furrywolf> also, amount of money spent on webdesigners seems to have an inverse correlation to website quality.
[19:57:52] <kengu> but .. in other build (not the laser but a "toy router" perhaps ditching the arduino+ramps what ever and put mesa 7I43
[19:58:07] <furrywolf> websites work by default, so the only thing they can spend their time on is making them not work, so the more you pay them, the worse the site works.
[19:58:50] <archivist> furrywolf, be the way, the customers ask for suckage, unfortunately
[19:59:00] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: nasa.gov
[19:59:03] <Rab> I never got beyond vim, I don't think I can handle weebly.
[19:59:04] <SpeedEvil> I want to cut a bitch
[19:59:12] <SpeedEvil> It used to be sane.
[19:59:56] <furrywolf> "Firefox can't establish a connection to the server at nasa.gov."
[20:00:44] <archivist> its http://www.nasa.gov/
[20:00:53] <SpeedEvil> Probably best
[20:01:12] <archivist> I get a black screen
[20:01:38] <furrywolf> I haven't managed to load enough to begin displaying anything.
[20:01:38] <SpeedEvil> I have a 2K*1.5k monitor.
[20:01:45] <SpeedEvil> I get _12_ words on that screen.
[20:01:49] <CaptHindsight> works fine for me, just a bit slow maybe
[20:01:53] <furrywolf> if it's going to answer, it still hasn't yet.
[20:01:56] <SpeedEvil> And two images
[20:02:09] <furrywolf> still no data...
[20:02:18] <Rab> Considering how hard it is to remove spray foam from skin, this could be a serious offensive weapon: http://www.gizmag.com/flying-3d-printer-robot/31975/
[20:02:20] <SpeedEvil> 14 words if you're being generous, and call 'Nasa TV' words not logo
[20:02:31] <furrywolf> ... and now it's done loading, on a black screen. no content at all.
[20:02:40] <Rab> furrywolf, that's the night sky.
[20:02:56] <archivist> with a black cat down a coal mine
[20:03:08] <kengu> ok. opinions on mesa 7I43
[20:03:26] <CaptHindsight> like it
[20:03:30] <furrywolf> it looks like they're attempting to load content with javascript, that doesn't work.
[20:03:56] <furrywolf> there is NO content in the page itself. just scripts.
[20:04:04] <Rab> furrywolf, correct, no content without allowing nasa.gov js.
[20:04:22] <CaptHindsight> kengu: what specifically are you wondering about?
[20:04:33] <archivist> totally borked method of web "design"
[20:04:54] <furrywolf> I have javascript on.
[20:05:00] <furrywolf> with no blocking of anything.
[20:05:04] <kengu> CaptHindsight: if i repeat myself from 7 minutes ago
[20:05:12] <kengu> but .. in other build (not the laser but a "toy router" perhaps ditching the arduino+ramps what ever and put mesa 7I43
[20:06:24] <kengu> i have used Mesa 6i25 + 7i76 in plasma cutter but it is a bit on the "expensive" side on this project
[20:06:32] <CaptHindsight> the 7i43 works with Linuxcnc, not the *duino apps
[20:07:53] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: but a slow net, so you're probably hitting a race condition somewhere
[20:08:26] <CaptHindsight> PC with LPT and breakout board is another option if cheapness is a major concern
[20:08:28] <Rab> The page takes a very long time to render, so maybe there's a timeout.
[20:08:44] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: yeah, there seems to be a race to who can design a website so bad every customer leaves.
[20:09:13] <SpeedEvil> Of course, it's designed for iphones.
[20:09:24] <SpeedEvil> Even if you manage to get to content, it's generally four words a page
[20:09:44] <kengu> CaptHindsight: yeah. that is the other plan
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[20:11:58] <furrywolf> speaking of designed-for-iphones... I take it iphones have broken scrolling? adding fucking idiotic "return to top of page" buttons seems to be becoming popular, even ebay has one now...
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[20:12:38] <CaptHindsight> anyone looking for a 30 x 45cm gantry router, no controls?
[20:13:12] <furrywolf> if it's free, sure! :P
[20:13:13] <kengu> always
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[20:13:41] <kengu> CaptHindsight: those chinese ones I have been looking
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[20:17:03] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/29zsN6tuwlR4 have an extra
[20:17:46] <furrywolf> bleh! got some "Hot" salsa... it's barely a mild.
[20:18:09] <furrywolf> Emerald Valley Organic Hot Salsa has almost no heat at all.
[20:23:04] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSzNcZHYvj8
[20:23:08] <zeeshan> finally got the video uploaded
[20:23:16] <zeeshan> video editting with virtualdub sux
[20:23:28] <zeeshan> subtitles should work too i think
[20:24:57] <Rab> zeeshan, nice, I want one of those with 10-32 holes.
[20:25:16] <Rab> Are they on a 1" grid, or what?
[20:25:21] <zeeshan> yes 1" grid
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[20:27:14] <zeeshan> its pretty cool how you can compact 1h45m of machining down to a couple min
[20:27:20] <zeeshan> video editting ftw
[20:27:25] <zeeshan> editing
[20:27:59] <CaptHindsight> Sounds pretty noisy. Can I do this safely with my toddler in the living room? (and other stupid comments and questions)
[20:28:03] <Rab> Video quality looks good, high pitched sound during the sped up parts is pretty excruciating though. Could use a low-pass filter, or lower volume.
[20:28:20] <zeeshan> maybe music overlay?
[20:28:25] <zeeshan> i tried using a low pass filter
[20:28:28] <zeeshan> but i couldnt get it out =/
[20:29:11] <Rab> Also maybe some spindle lighting. Reasonably clear though.
[20:29:25] <zeeshan> i actually took out the little flourscent lights
[20:29:41] <zeeshan> i need to find replacements
[20:29:45] <CaptHindsight> it looks fine
[20:29:46] <zeeshan> ive never seen 8" long tubes before
[20:29:53] <CaptHindsight> I wouldn't change anything
[20:31:45] <zeeshan> rigid tapping made me realize i do need a braking resistor
[20:31:50] <zeeshan> so i can tap faster
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[20:32:24] <just_pink> hi
[20:33:46] <Rab> zeeshan, sounds like something used in RV lighting or handheld fluorescent lanterns. LEDs seem like a winner.
[20:37:35] <Rab> zeeshan, nice video, nice machine!
[20:37:44] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdXf4XFFrkY Video Lighting Training | Shot Design | Film Look
[20:37:58] <cradek> how did you miss some holes!?
[20:38:01] <Rab> I see you test-fitting a screw during the tapping job. ;)
[20:38:17] <furrywolf> maybe I should skip the whole cnc thing and go into the salsa making business. surely I can't be the only one disgusted at how fucking mild every salsa sold around here as "hot" is.
[20:39:32] <Praesmeodymium> heh, the problem with the typical hot salsa is its either spicy ketchup or made by frat boys who are using hot as advertisng and in place of flavor
[20:40:25] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwtpJ3T8eK4 Cinematography Learn from a Master
[20:40:31] <Sync_> zeeshan: why are you spotting? get 4 flute ground drills and just ram the holes in there
[20:40:51] <zeeshan> cradek: modifying code by hand :(
[20:40:57] <furrywolf> Praesmeodymium: where I used to live, you could buy hot salsas that were actually hot... around here, they're all mild.
[20:40:58] <zeeshan> Rab: haha
[20:41:03] <cradek> well at least you didn't tap the ones that didn't drill
[20:41:09] <furrywolf> they had names like "xxxtra hot" and "hellfire" :)
[20:41:12] <archivist> zeeshan, straight flute hand tap?
[20:41:29] <zeeshan> Sync_: don't own any, but i'd like to buy a set of stub length drills
[20:41:31] <cradek> surely it was a spiral point
[20:41:34] <zeeshan> spiral point
[20:41:40] <pcw_home> tapping the undrilled holes would have made a good video
[20:41:51] <zeeshan> im too wuss to use regular taps
[20:41:55] <cradek> yes I'd just drill those with a screw machine length 135 degree split point
[20:41:58] <cradek> I love those things
[20:42:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan: if you don't have a set of stub length drills yet, you either don't do much drilling, or haven't learned how to resharpen a broken bit. :P
[20:42:03] <Rab> I assume the spotting drill is to countersink against surface burr from the tap?
[20:42:19] <furrywolf> I end up with stub-length drills whether I want them or not!
[20:43:01] <cradek> furrywolf: I just toss dull drills and buy new split-points. it's cheap enough if you do small stuff.
[20:43:11] <cradek> if I was constantly buying 3/4 drills maybe I'd reconsider
[20:43:25] <zeeshan> Rab: that's actually the main reason i started with a center drill so that i could have a smooth entry for the tap
[20:43:38] <furrywolf> good drills are NOT cheap.
[20:43:41] <zeeshan> very tiny chamfer left after drilling
[20:43:57] <Rab> zeeshan, sounds legit to me.
[20:44:02] <cradek> yeah
[20:44:11] <cradek> you did perfectly if there are no taps stuck in it when you're done
[20:44:17] <furrywolf> :P
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[20:44:41] <furrywolf> and no punches, edm machines, or tap dissolver was needed. :)
[20:45:08] <zeeshan> without cradek, we wouldnt have this video
[20:45:12] <zeeshan> thank you!
[20:45:13] <zeeshan> :]
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[20:45:26] <cradek> you're welcome :-)
[20:45:49] <cradek> also, without people working on emc for ten years before I even touched it
[20:45:51] * furrywolf still hasn't seen the video, as it's way too long, and going to take forever to load
[20:46:09] <zeeshan> long live emc
[20:46:39] <zeeshan> when people ask me why i use emc, i have a good solid answer
[20:46:47] <zeeshan> it's actually simple..
[20:47:03] <furrywolf> and works!
[20:47:43] <zeeshan> "it's the best cnc controller. it's not because of all the features it has packed such as real time control, but the fact that i can customize it to suit my needs very easily. there are no limitations"
[20:48:13] <zeeshan> try doing that with a fanuc or siemens control
[20:48:14] <cradek> I think the combination of free software and machining/manufacturing/"makers" is a really great one, and I'm proud to be a part of it
[20:48:42] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: apparantly it's not easy to customize it to wait for me to manually reverse the spindle switches during tapping. :)
[20:48:53] <XXCoder> zeeshan: get stub drills. those is hreat
[20:48:59] <XXCoder> great
[20:49:03] <zeeshan> XXCoder: when i have $200 to blow
[20:49:04] <zeeshan> i will
[20:49:04] <zeeshan> :)
[20:49:14] <XXCoder> far less runout and better holes when depth isnt very deep
[20:49:31] <zeeshan> which is like 90% of the time
[20:49:53] <XXCoder> I acciently used regular when stub would do twice before, and difference is very noticable.
[20:49:56] <zeeshan> for some reason i have been lately working on spigot type parts
[20:50:02] <zeeshan> where the spigot won't let me even use a regular dril
[20:50:07] <zeeshan> i gotta use extended length
[20:50:29] <XXCoder> thin collet extender with stub when possible
[20:50:58] * furrywolf gives up
[20:50:58] <XXCoder> one that turns er32 to er11 say
[20:51:02] <furrywolf> that video is only 1/5th loaded
[20:51:09] <zeeshan> furrywolf: sorry :-)
[20:51:25] <XXCoder> fur get video downloader
[20:51:28] <XXCoder> oh did you already use it
[20:51:52] <Deejay> gn8
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[20:53:34] <furrywolf> tape the blow gun to the side of the head. :P
[20:53:38] <andypugh> kengu: I have been using a 7i43 on one of my machines for longer than I care to consider. They are good and the fact that the card and the PC can be separated is sometimes handy.
[20:54:23] <zeeshan> furrywolf: im actually looking at this:
[20:54:33] <furrywolf> does mesa have a cheap board that'll drive my treadmill motor, or should I wait until I find a whole treadmill I can steal a stock drive from?
[20:55:28] <zeeshan> http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/231533487215-0-1/s-l1000.jpg
[20:55:32] <archivist> furrywolf, I doubt the treadmill drives are proper servo drives
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[20:56:19] <archivist> andypugh, seems I get to explore another probe design http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271934477389
[20:56:34] <zeeshan> ...... gimme!
[20:56:47] <zeeshan> you got that dirt cheap
[20:56:50] <archivist> erm......not now
[20:57:03] <furrywolf> archivist: I'm thinking for a spindle motor more amenable to tapping than my stock motors
[20:57:36] <andypugh> archivist: Looks interesting. It seems to have about 25x as many pins as a probe normally needs.
[20:57:52] <zeeshan> andypugh: it's to scare people
[20:57:55] <zeeshan> prolly 2 are connected
[20:57:56] <zeeshan> :-)
[20:58:32] <archivist> must invalidate the warranty and explore inside
[20:58:38] <furrywolf> ah, the ubiquitous generic holddown set...
[20:59:58] <XXCoder> weird I dont see any pictures
[21:00:06] <archivist> furrywolf, my cnc lathe has a dc spindle motor, but no reverse at the moment, only do thread cutting not tapping on it
[21:00:31] <XXCoder> arch can't do one way tapping then you manually back it out?
[21:01:05] <furrywolf> archivist: I'm thinking for the mill spindle. I too have some lots-of-tapped-holes projects, but it seems that using my current motors won't work well.
[21:01:06] <archivist> usually doing one offs on the manual lathes anyway
[21:01:55] <pcw_home> its a scanning probe so the tip oscillates (so needs more control wires)
[21:01:58] <archivist> furrywolf, I have the spindle feedback to finish on the mill before it does tapping
[21:02:13] <zeeshan> what is the point of oscillating the probe tip
[21:02:45] <archivist> some of the renishaw probes move
[21:02:49] <pcw_home> Actually i thin it just measure deflection
[21:03:41] <pcw_home> so you drag it across a surface
[21:04:19] <zeeshan> ah
[21:05:42] <archivist> http://www.renishaw.com/en/ph20-5-axis-touch-trigger-system--12487
[21:08:08] <furrywolf> zeeshan: that's cute. (the add-on coolent/air thingy)
[21:08:56] <furrywolf> I have a drill that has lubrication, but not my mill. heh.
[21:09:10] <XXCoder> "PH20's unique �head touches' allow measurement points to be taken by moving only the head, rather than the CMM structure"
[21:11:21] <archivist> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUgWBlEewyk
[21:11:53] <zeeshan> i got a flood coolanbt pump
[21:11:55] <zeeshan> but itll make a mess
[21:12:28] <XXCoder> can limit current?
[21:12:33] <XXCoder> er flow
[21:12:42] <zeeshan> yea but you need lots of flow
[21:12:46] <zeeshan> to do chip clearing
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[21:13:30] <XXCoder> hmm oh well
[21:13:34] <furrywolf> I don't think I can run an air compressor and the mill at once...
[21:13:43] <furrywolf> unless I bring it back here
[21:14:04] <Sync_> I don't like those spray things
[21:14:27] <Sync_> they produce a lot of unneccessary aerosol
[21:14:32] <furrywolf> I like the magnetic base. that goes well with my level of caring. :)
[21:14:51] <zeeshan> sync thats because of their inherent design
[21:14:51] <furrywolf> Sync_: that's a feature - nothing near it will rust. :P
[21:14:55] <zeeshan> you can easily fix it
[21:15:29] <furrywolf> it's just like cars that leak oil... it's a feature - prevents floorpan rust! :P
[21:15:33] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3wUoPdK_ms
[21:15:35] <zeeshan> check that out sync
[21:15:42] <zeeshan> haha
[21:15:48] <zeeshan> https://youtu.be/G3wUoPdK_ms?t=565
[21:16:06] <zeeshan> he talks about it and shows what to do to fix it
[21:16:37] <XXCoder> lol
[21:16:55] <furrywolf> could always spray air and cutting fluid separately. especially if you use appropriate m-codes to only turn coolant on during the downward tapping movement.
[21:19:00] <furrywolf> or jerryrig an oil can so the download spindle movement presses the handle. :P
[21:19:25] <Sync_> zeeshan: yeah there also is the fogbuster, but eh
[21:19:29] <Sync_> floodcoolant for me it is
[21:19:35] <zeeshan> fogbuster is a lot of $
[21:19:46] <furrywolf> my machine isn't enclosed, so I don't plan on flood coolant, ever.
[21:19:51] <zeeshan> flood coolant makes sense for an enclosed machine
[21:20:14] <zeeshan> even then, ive learned in class that flood coolant is no where as good as mist coolant
[21:20:21] <zeeshan> performance wise
[21:20:45] <furrywolf> and where I'm putting my electronics, if the machine sits in more than 3/8" of fluid, there goes the stepper drives. :P
[21:21:16] <Sync_> 330 bux zeeshan, I'd call that pretty cheap for what you are getting
[21:21:20] <zeeshan> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0890695504001683
[21:21:21] <Sync_> it all depends on application
[21:21:23] <zeeshan> here's a typical paper
[21:21:28] <zeeshan> you see on flood coolant vs mist coolant vs dry
[21:21:31] <furrywolf> oh, and, by the design of the machine, the lathe motor would be shot by then too, since it sits flush with the base of the machine also...
[21:21:40] <zeeshan> and almost all the papers show flood coolant is more action than performance
[21:21:48] <Rab> zeeshan, why is that? Faster evaporative cooling with mist?
[21:21:55] <Sync_> high pressure flood usually is the easiest especially because you get free chip clearing
[21:22:09] <zeeshan> rab one defect is when you flood cooalnt, you form micro vapor bubbles
[21:22:13] <zeeshan> and what does vapor do?
[21:22:17] <zeeshan> impede heat transfer
[21:22:32] <Rab> hmm
[21:22:37] <zeeshan> so you're flooding this massive stream of coolant at 500psi
[21:22:50] <zeeshan> and you have this layer of bubbles forming on top of the tool - coolant interface
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[21:23:37] <furrywolf> hrmm, according to the video you pasted, the nozzle thing needs pressurized coolant... fuck that. I figured it had a venturi from the design.
[21:23:43] <zeeshan> haha i just realized
[21:23:50] <zeeshan> that e-g ng is my prof!
[21:24:03] * zeeshan did a random search on google scholar
[21:24:26] <Sync_> the materials institute here did some similar stuff
[21:24:31] <zeeshan> furrywolf: it is venturi
[21:24:43] <zeeshan> but you wanna pressurize the COOLANT tank
[21:24:53] <furrywolf> no, I don't wanna. lol
[21:24:57] <zeeshan> so there isn't a pressure differential between the two
[21:25:11] <furrywolf> I want it to use a venturi to create suction to suck the coolant out of the tank.
[21:25:15] <zeeshan> its the pressure difference which i think causes more atomizing
[21:25:35] <XXCoder> there is another way to "pressurize". we has been using that method for water for long time, hundreds of years
[21:25:36] <Sync_> they came to the conclusion that high pressure flood was the best for the production stuff VW did
[21:25:43] <Sync_> around 1000psi tho
[21:25:48] <XXCoder> gravity
[21:25:50] <zeeshan> Sync_: would love to see a paper on that
[21:26:17] <XXCoder> though I wonder how high tank would have to be in order to make venturi work well.
[21:26:19] <Sync_> there is no paper, all seekrut 3rd party research
[21:26:30] <zeeshan> okay cant be trusted then :P
[21:26:31] <XXCoder> probably violates airspace LOL
[21:26:35] <furrywolf> Sync_: just mount a pressure washer next to your mill. :P
[21:27:06] <Sync_> or get a mill with high pressure coolant
[21:27:38] <furrywolf> pressure washers are $20 at yard sales...
[21:27:56] <XXCoder> pressure washer would work with coolant?
[21:28:21] <furrywolf> XXCoder: probably
[21:28:23] <furrywolf> they work with soap...
[21:29:18] <Sync_> zeeshan: as if any paper could be trusted
[21:29:32] <zeeshan> you cant deny lab proof :P
[21:29:40] <zeeshan> "here are the results, intrepret it"
[21:29:53] <zeeshan> i can see why some companies would want to endorse flood coolant
[21:29:57] <zeeshan> cause its $$$$
[21:30:18] <furrywolf> so does that coolant nozzle thing actually have two coaxial lines, with no mixing of air and coolant anywhere
[21:30:21] <furrywolf> ?
[21:30:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[21:30:40] <furrywolf> so then it doesn't have a venturi stuffed in the base. lol
[21:30:49] <zeeshan> it has a port between the two
[21:30:57] <zeeshan> which pulls on the coolant
[21:31:16] <zeeshan> i dunno
[21:31:20] <zeeshan> its been a while since i looked at it :P
[21:31:39] * furrywolf wonders how well a syrup pump would work
[21:32:42] <Sync_> zeeshan: you know how papers are written
[21:33:12] <XXCoder> millions of monkeys?
[21:33:25] <zeeshan> Sync_: yes i do
[21:33:43] <furrywolf> does it involve magic?
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[21:33:53] <zeeshan> its a pretty lengthy process :/
[21:34:05] <furrywolf> after all, it doesn't take any work at all to produce a paper or a thesis, right? :P
[21:34:29] <zeeshan> furrywolf: ive only been doing the same thing for 8 months
[21:34:29] <zeeshan> !!
[21:34:31] <Sync_> that depends, if you want to be quick you have to be creative
[21:34:44] <XXCoder> aka cheat
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[21:35:00] <Sync_> ^
[21:35:06] <zeeshan> i just found out the other day
[21:35:25] <zeeshan> if you use a load cell that is outside of 1% of the range youre measuring
[21:35:31] <zeeshan> your paper gets rejected
[21:35:36] <zeeshan> its good enough for thesis, but not publishing
[21:35:43] <andypugh> Eh?
[21:35:48] <zeeshan> andypugh: yea!
[21:35:52] <zeeshan> thats what the supervisor told me
[21:35:56] <Sync_> haha
[21:35:57] <Rab> monkeyisl, sup
[21:36:03] <Sync_> he's wrong then
[21:36:11] <andypugh> You mean to measure 10N you should use a 1kN cell?
[21:36:20] <Sync_> there are a lot of papers with wrong measurements
[21:36:22] <furrywolf> you just need to know what your error bars are at the pressure you're measuring.
[21:36:29] <furrywolf> force, strain, whatever you're measuring
[21:36:40] <Sync_> or just don't provide errors
[21:36:47] <zeeshan> andypugh: if youre measuring 1-9N with a 1kN load cell, its considered garbage
[21:36:49] <furrywolf> Sync_: no, THAT gets you rejected. :P
[21:36:51] <Sync_> because you are confident™ that it is right
[21:37:04] <Sync_> depends on your publisher :D
[21:37:29] <furrywolf> you're right, vanity publishers will publish anything you pay them to publish. :P
[21:37:42] <Sync_> so, all publishers :D
[21:37:46] <andypugh> zeeshan: Ah, that way round. Yeah, I wouldn’t pay any attention to a 5N reading from a 5000N loadcell myself.
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[21:38:00] <zeeshan> i think you're confusing book publishers
[21:38:05] <zeeshan> with journal publishers
[21:38:11] <zeeshan> there is a big difference
[21:38:27] <XXCoder> im sure the regular book publishers dont care
[21:38:30] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: no, there's vanity journal publishers too. you can publish in the journal of whatever-you'll-pay-us-to-print too.
[21:38:36] <XXCoder> look at all those bullshit health stuff books
[21:38:47] <XXCoder> like homoapathy
[21:38:49] <furrywolf> of course, no one else cares much about non-peer-reviewed journals.
[21:39:22] <Sync_> it really depends, I have seen a lot of trolls in peer reviewed journals
[21:39:44] <zeeshan> andypugh: did you see my latest data?
[21:39:46] <Sync_> as everybody is measuring themselves on how many papers they published it all goes to shit
[21:39:58] <zeeshan> ive been going in circles
[21:40:46] <furrywolf> if your data looks like a circle, your material isn't doing much shape memorizing. :P
[21:40:51] <zeeshan> hahah
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[21:41:24] <Sync_> I mean, a doc here got his last draft published instead of the final version
[21:41:25] <andypugh> zeeshan: No, sorry. I have been racing (and losing very badly to) Aston Martins and Veyrons on mountain road for the last two weeks. Sometimes my job sucks :-)
[21:41:36] <Sync_> nobody noticed that a section was mussing
[21:41:47] <zeeshan> lol
[21:41:55] <Sync_> ~missing even
[21:42:35] <furrywolf> andypugh: I'll race you in my subaru, as long as we're not required to stick to the road. :P
[21:42:51] <andypugh> I _think_ I have proven that a 1.5 litre diesel people-carrier is slower than a Veyron at altitude, but I think I probably need more data.
[21:42:58] <zeeshan> rofl
[21:43:07] <furrywolf> lol
[21:43:33] <andypugh> furrywolf: In that case, can I use my GasGas?
[21:43:39] <furrywolf> a veyron is nice and quick on road, but I bet it gets stuck about 3ft from pavement. :P
[21:44:27] <furrywolf> lol
[21:45:38] <furrywolf> what, exactly, is the point of racing an economy diesel against a sportscar? that's like your measuring 5N with the 5000N loadcell...
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[21:46:40] <andypugh> Well, actually I was monitoring the performance of a variable displacement oil pump controller at altitude and with hot oil. And the only way to get the oil hot is….
[21:47:04] <furrywolf> ah, so it wasn't actually a race.
[21:47:11] <furrywolf> that is, the outcome of the race wasn't what you were measuring.
[21:47:19] <andypugh> No, this was on public roads, for a start
[21:47:48] <furrywolf> also, variable displacement oil pump controller? for fuel oil or for lubricating oil? and if for lubricating oil, what's wrong with a good ol' bypass valve? heh
[21:47:49] <DaViruz> andypugh: oil pump as in engine lubrication oil pump?
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[21:49:10] <furrywolf> or does it have some shiny hydrostatic drivetrain? :)
[21:49:15] <andypugh> But I would guess that more than 50% of the traffic was test vehicles from various manufacturers. Trucks from MAN and Mercedes, Vans, Coaches, the new Renault Alpine, the new Astom Martin, the BMW i8, A Smart car wth the badges covered in tape (Why?) and a number of humdrum Fords.
[21:49:18] <CaptHindsight> <--- really hopes that it's a James Bond type oil spreader
[21:49:44] <andypugh> A bypass valve eats a HP or so at high engine speed.
[21:50:22] <furrywolf> that just means your bearings haven't worn in yet. :)
[21:51:11] <furrywolf> once it's got enough miles on it, the bypass won't be used when the oil is hot!
[21:51:17] <andypugh> There are variable-speed electric oil pumps available. Not a bad plan at all, but you would want to make sure the fuse didn’t blow.
[21:51:48] <Sync_> yeah, I sense reliability issues
[21:51:53] <furrywolf> put the fuel pump on the oil pressure switch, like ford did.
[21:52:00] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am not comfortable discussing the details, but you can probably find out the details on the web.
[21:52:27] <DaViruz> i'm not comfortable hearing about the details.. :)
[21:53:25] <furrywolf> heh, a friend got a free f-350 that way... the oil filter backed off, then the fuel pump shut off... people didn't spend too much work troubleshooting it, and just conluded no oil + stopped running = dead engine. my friend screwed the oil filter back down tight, added another gallon of oil, and drove it home.
[21:53:49] <furrywolf> concluded
[21:54:07] <PetefromTn_> ^^ all of this above here......is BULLSHIT^^^ ;)
[21:54:41] <furrywolf> andypugh: I'm always perfectly happy to discuss details, but people complain if I do. :P
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[21:59:37] <Sync_> is it really worth that trouble? apparently it is but especially an electric oilpump seems to be eh, interesting
[21:59:50] <Sync_> but electric coolant pumps also seem to be the rage
[22:01:09] <furrywolf> I like simple and reliable setups.
[22:01:40] <furrywolf> BMW, for example, used an aux electric coolant pump so your could run the heater with the engine off. Exactly zero of them still work. Of course, the same can be said for most BMW parts.
[22:02:06] <Sync_> they now run a full electric deal
[22:02:33] <Sync_> I wonder if it makes sense in if you view the complete energy invested into a car like that
[22:02:57] <furrywolf> unlikely. :)
[22:03:03] <Sync_> or rather when does a car break even with the fuel it saves vs increased manufacturing complexity/energy invested
[22:03:51] <furrywolf> I remember some study a while back concluded the jeep wrangler was the most environmentally-friendly vehicle made, because it was simple to make and lasted a long time, preventing the making of new vehicles, even though it used a bit more fuel.
[22:04:30] <zeeshan> electric coolant pumps make me upset
[22:04:34] <zeeshan> they don't last!!!!!!!!!
[22:04:46] <Tom_itx> what fails?
[22:04:46] <zeeshan> but they do have the sweet benefit of circulating coolant while the car is off, which helps at the track
[22:04:55] <Tom_itx> the pump or the motor?
[22:05:02] <zeeshan> both
[22:05:23] <furrywolf> also, I question the overall efficiency savings... rotation -> electric -> electronics -> rotation is a lot of extra steps, and automotive alternators have pretty crap efficiency.
[22:05:54] <Rab> Sorta feel the same way about electric fans vs mechanical clutch fans.
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[22:06:21] <zeeshan> the electric motors on the ewaterpumps is rated for 3000 hours
[22:06:26] <Sync_> never had an efan fail
[22:06:44] <furrywolf> build a magdrive pump. :)
[22:06:45] <Rab> Although there are some notable advantages to electric (fine duty cycle control, runs with engine off, doesn't wear out water pump bearing).
[22:06:45] <zeeshan> so 50 days :P
[22:06:51] <Sync_> furrywolf: also the shitty 12V electrics
[22:07:10] <furrywolf> a good electronic magdrive pump probably lasts plenty long... but costs a lot.
[22:07:20] <Rab> I have seen a few electric fans fail. But clutches and water pump bearings also.
[22:07:34] <Sync_> fucking BMW visco fans
[22:07:36] <Sync_> POS.
[22:08:11] <furrywolf> I've seen everything fail. BMWs are special, because everything fails on every vehicle. :P
[22:08:20] <zeeshan> hi andypugh
[22:08:21] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bVZC9II.png
[22:08:52] <zeeshan> damn uniaxial results dont line up
[22:08:53] <furrywolf> that looks like data.
[22:09:24] <furrywolf> so your non-shape-memory polymer is slightly anisotropic as well?
[22:09:30] <zeeshan> no this is 9000j
[22:09:42] <zeeshan> polypropylene - polyethylene copolymer
[22:09:51] <zeeshan> trying to test a non smp material first
[22:09:57] <furrywolf> isn't that what I said?
[22:09:58] <zeeshan> our smp material is very non-homogenous
[22:10:05] <zeeshan> whoops i didnt read 'non'
[22:10:11] <furrywolf> lol
[22:10:22] <zeeshan> yea its slightly anisotropic
[22:11:07] <Sync_> so far the few bmws I had were reliable
[22:11:29] <Tom_itx> just don't have a flat
[22:11:33] <furrywolf> Sync_: did you keep them very long?
[22:11:59] <Tom_itx> all the ppl i know with em have nothing but problems
[22:12:02] <Sync_> long enough to have failures usually
[22:12:05] <furrywolf> hell, you don't even need to keep them very long... the water-cooled alternators seem good for about 40-60K miles, and cost $900 to replace!
[22:12:17] <zeeshan> there are waterr cooled alternators?
[22:12:20] <Sync_> sure
[22:12:24] <Sync_> a lot of the mare
[22:12:29] <zeeshan> fak i want one
[22:12:32] <furrywolf> zeeshan: BMW uses them. I have absolutely no idea why.
[22:12:32] <zeeshan> mine is right next to the turbine housing
[22:12:33] <XXCoder> never heard of water cooled alternator
[22:12:35] <Sync_> because dem florida heat and all the shit running
[22:12:51] <XXCoder> dont need one here in washington, only summers is hot
[22:12:52] <Sync_> XXCoder: put a 250A alternator into the standard size
[22:12:52] <furrywolf> I do know they're stupidly short-lived.
[22:12:58] <Sync_> you will need watercooling
[22:12:59] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/5S0KMqE.jpg
[22:13:05] <zeeshan> look at how close my wastegate is to the alternator
[22:13:13] <Sync_> pro fitment
[22:13:19] <XXCoder> why need such massive amp alt though?
[22:13:28] <Sync_> all your electric accessories
[22:13:36] <XXCoder> ah like boomboxes and such
[22:13:39] <Sync_> no
[22:13:42] <XXCoder> never need much power lol
[22:13:52] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/GufASr0.jpg
[22:13:58] <Sync_> massage seats, electric windows, media center whatever
[22:14:01] <zeeshan> you can see the alternator peaking in this pic
[22:14:03] <Sync_> needs powah
[22:14:04] <zeeshan> bottom right
[22:14:07] <furrywolf> I have a dual-output 150A alternator in my pickup... mostly from when I had a camper shell on the back and wanted to charge the house batteries quickly. also works great for making the winches work.
[22:14:12] <XXCoder> Sync_: my old car had all that
[22:14:15] <zeeshan> i could use a water cooled alternator!
[22:14:29] <XXCoder> plus more. it was really high end "standard looking car but fancy inside" car
[22:14:45] <furrywolf> zeeshan: they're much more money and much less reliable.
[22:14:50] <XXCoder> it had electric goodamn everything that existed in 80s
[22:14:57] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mercedes-A-Class-A160-A170-Vaneo-1-7-Diesel-Water-Cooled-Alternator-/181418645104
[22:14:59] <zeeshan> about 300 bux
[22:15:03] <zeeshan> comparable to a new alternator
[22:15:11] <XXCoder> but it had large but not water cooled alternator
[22:15:13] <furrywolf> I got a new alternator for my truck, but haven't put it in yet... it's only 90A, but it'll make it at lower rpm, which is better.
[22:15:30] <Sync_> you could do with a better wastegate placement zeeshan .P
[22:15:37] <zeeshan> Sync_: feel free to come by
[22:15:40] <zeeshan> and put it in a better spot
[22:15:45] <zeeshan> i can give you $1000 if you can
[22:15:54] <furrywolf> it's a brushless marine alternator, extra-large-case... I think the mounting wings are on 9" centers if I remember right. a much better match for my truck.
[22:15:54] <XXCoder> oh yeah
[22:16:11] <zeeshan> furrywolf: 90A!
[22:16:12] <zeeshan> pfft
[22:16:12] <XXCoder> zeeshan: did you find slimmer cooler? it seems so as I see it installed
[22:16:24] <XXCoder> radator
[22:16:30] <zeeshan> no its actually fatter
[22:16:43] <XXCoder> so you had to redesign some stuff?
[22:16:50] <zeeshan> nope
[22:16:53] <zeeshan> just played with the turbo placement
[22:17:06] <furrywolf> zeeshan: it's an extremely heavy duty alternator, and will put out that 90A for roughly forever even immersed in saltwater. :P
[22:17:17] <furrywolf> it weighs about four times what my 150A alternator does. :)
[22:17:17] <XXCoder> well placement IS design lol
[22:17:19] <zeeshan> furrywolf: my rad fans draw 50A
[22:17:23] <zeeshan> t!
[22:17:31] <furrywolf> my rad fan is bolted to the front of the water pump. :P
[22:17:45] <zeeshan> clutch type
[22:17:46] <zeeshan> haha
[22:17:51] <zeeshan> that is old school my friend
[22:17:54] <furrywolf> no.
[22:18:08] <furrywolf> it doesn't have a clutch. :P
[22:18:12] <zeeshan> haha
[22:18:35] <furrywolf> the engine needs about 1A to operate. :)
[22:18:40] <furrywolf> and that's for the ignition
[22:19:00] <furrywolf> other than that, lights, heater, and radio.
[22:19:10] <andypugh> We have 250A air-cooled alternators and they work fine.
[22:19:30] <furrywolf> yeah, I almost bought a 250A alternator once... was out of a firetruck.
[22:19:43] <furrywolf> or maybe it was an ambulance. don't remember.
[22:20:00] <andypugh> The main reason for the current is heaters. These modern diesels don’t make much heat. 1kW of electric windscreen + 2kW of secondary cabin heater requires a lot of current at 12V
[22:20:43] <furrywolf> I'm surprised it doesn't take a lot more than 2kw...
[22:21:08] <Sync_> I think it is only to generate heat on cold starts so that the cabin heats more quickly
[22:21:19] <Sync_> MB did that in the 80s
[22:21:26] <Sync_> the 1.6 nearly stalled when it kicked in
[22:21:30] * furrywolf owns a jacket
[22:21:37] <zeeshan> andypugh: comment on my results :{
[22:22:10] <furrywolf> it is unlikely to be sufficiently colder inside the car than outside of it. thus, if you can get to the car, you have clothes suitable for the temperature inside the car.
[22:22:22] <Sync_> but driving with them is shit
[22:22:31] <Sync_> from a comfort view and from a safety view
[22:22:46] <andypugh> And you can’t work the touchscreen with gloves on
[22:23:21] <andypugh> zeeshan: I don’t know what to say aboutyour results. They look nicely repeatable sample-to-sample
[22:23:35] <furrywolf> I will never own a vehicle with a touchscreen. They are, by far, the worse, stupidest, least-safe idea ever. Well, maybe being able to play moves on a heads-up display, or having an beer tap built into the steering column...
[22:23:38] <zeeshan> i dont understand why biaxial differs from uniaxial
[22:23:39] <zeeshan> :/
[22:24:41] <furrywolf> a touchscreen requires you to divert your eyes from the road to use it - even more so if it's capable of displaying things that have different buttons. mechanical switches do not have this problem.
[22:25:25] <furrywolf> looking down and reading while driving is not acceptable.
[22:25:49] <furrywolf> if we're lucky, touchscreens accessible while driving will be banned.
[22:26:07] <furrywolf> just like playing movies while driving or texting while driving
[22:27:00] <furrywolf> I don't know about the laws in every state, but here, any movie screen visible to the driver must be deactivated unless the car is parked.
[22:27:36] <Sync_> andypugh: are they really having such heat issues?
[22:27:52] <andypugh> Yes
[22:27:56] <furrywolf> even aftermarket radios need to be wired into a park signal, such as the e-brake or transmission range...
[22:28:22] <Sync_> interesting
[22:29:56] <andypugh> Sync_: You can leave a car at 100C idling at -20C for 20 minutes and come back to find the coolant at 20C. That’s with no radiator flow, just heat loss from the block.
[22:30:14] <Sync_> I have the same issue with my old dsm
[22:30:26] <Sync_> it will cool when idle
[22:30:36] <andypugh> In gentle town driving at -30 the coolant never gets over 40C
[22:30:43] <Sync_> hmm
[22:31:39] <andypugh> zeeshan: Is it possible that the strain calcuations for biaxial are different? Halve the strain and the lines line up (somewhat)
[22:31:48] <furrywolf> andypugh: a thermostatically controlled air vent system that seals off the underhood area until the engine is warmed up. could be implemented with a vacuum actuator and a thermovalve. :)
[22:32:00] <andypugh> We already have that
[22:32:11] <Sync_> there already are inlet flaps
[22:32:23] <Sync_> dem aero improvement too
[22:32:35] <andypugh> But it has to be left open below freezing in case it freezes shut
[22:32:40] <zeeshan> andypugh: in both these cases im getting actual strain using a camera measurement system (so getting true strain) , only thing i am calculating is stress
[22:32:43] <zeeshan> stress = pr / 2t for biaxial
[22:32:55] <furrywolf> heh, run a heater line around it. :)
[22:33:00] <furrywolf> (engine coolant)
[22:33:04] <Sync_> no
[22:33:18] <zeeshan> p,t,r are a function of time, so this is indeed true stress
[22:33:58] <zeeshan> for uniaxial, i do true stress = (load/area) *e^truestrain
[22:34:02] <zeeshan> er
[22:34:10] <zeeshan> yea thats what i do..
[22:34:31] <zeeshan> i wonder if stress isn't pr / 2t for some reason for biaxial
[22:35:36] <andypugh> zeeshan: I can’t recall what the equations are, and I never actually did biaxial. But I would be looking hard at the means of calculating strain in both cases, and also checking whether you would _expect_ to see what you see
[22:35:40] <Sync_> andypugh: hm, I have not read through the directive, isn't it possible to force high idle in cold weather
[22:35:46] <Sync_> efficiency is going to suck for those, but eh
[22:36:04] <andypugh> We already do that, it doesn’t make enough difference
[22:36:23] <andypugh> (Idling at 3000 rpm is probably an NVH fail)
[22:36:48] <furrywolf> zeeshan: could your clamps be causing uneven forces that are distorting the material some way your model doesn't compensate for?
[22:37:10] <furrywolf> is this gas or diesel?
[22:37:35] <furrywolf> if it has a cat, dump some extra fuel into it and put a heat exchanger after it. :)
[22:37:47] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i think i'd see the failure happen away from the pole in that case
[22:38:12] <furrywolf> I thought your failures were happening away from the pole?
[22:38:16] <zeeshan> not anymore
[22:38:22] <zeeshan> after this http://i.imgur.com/8vg1nJc.jpg
[22:38:29] <zeeshan> everything started working right
[22:39:01] <furrywolf> so even the 0.5psi/minute or whatever was causing enough local stress to pop it?
[22:39:36] <zeeshan> i think it was uneven distribution of pressure
[22:40:45] <JT-Shop> I hate it when people assume you want to be their free handy man
[22:41:00] <furrywolf> JT-Shop: want to fix my leaky plumbing?
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[22:41:13] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: just say it'll cost this much
[22:41:18] <zeeshan> itll stop the free nonsense right away
[22:41:20] <JT-Shop> sure I'll add it to the list
[22:42:02] <JT-Shop> Exofficio seems to have reasonable shipping rates
[22:42:06] <Sync_> oh true, I completely forget about NVH
[22:42:18] <Sync_> I would be a shitty consumer car engineer
[22:42:36] <JT-Shop> my friend's son owns the house but is too lazy to do anything...
[22:42:48] <JT-Shop> not my yob mon
[22:44:24] <Sync_> andypugh: another innovative idea, let the hydroblock drag the brake so the engine load increases, with the conti mk100 that should be easy to do smoothly
[22:45:15] <furrywolf> won't help sitting idling...
[22:46:11] <Sync_> load the alternator... or just have an electric by heater
[22:46:21] <furrywolf> I haven't seen an exhaust heat exchanger heater in a while, but now that everything has cats, it'd be a good way to make extra heat on demand.
[22:47:07] <andypugh> In theory an auto-gearbox and electric brake could be made to fight against each other, I suppose. But if the driving wheels and braked wheels are not the same, and if, say, you are in a place where ice is likely, the car might not stay where you put it.
[22:47:23] <furrywolf> and it might not have an auto.
[22:47:37] <andypugh> furrywolf: Peugeout have exhaust heat exchangers, but engineering them is surprisingly hard
[22:47:53] <furrywolf> if it had an auto, you wouldn't even need to use the brakes, just add some transbrake logic that drags a couple clutches at once...
[22:48:04] <zeeshan> i wish i had a car that was ice cold at idle.
[22:48:04] <zeeshan> :/
[22:48:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan: ice cold motors are inefficient.
[22:48:27] <zeeshan> dont take it literally :P
[22:48:38] <zeeshan> 180F or so
[22:48:41] <furrywolf> also, on a lot of vehicles, if you remove the thermostat, it'll be pretty close to ice cold at idle.
[22:48:42] <zeeshan> my shit idles at 200
[22:48:59] <furrywolf> and in cold whether, all the time!
[22:48:59] <malcom2073> My camaro idles at 220
[22:49:03] <zeeshan> malcom2073: ls1?
[22:49:09] <malcom2073> zeeshan: Gen1 SBC
[22:49:11] <zeeshan> lt
[22:49:12] <furrywolf> malcom2073: it probably has a thermostat. :)
[22:49:12] <zeeshan> er
[22:49:14] <zeeshan> sbc
[22:49:17] <malcom2073> yeah sbc
[22:49:22] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Yeppers
[22:49:58] <furrywolf> andypugh: hrmm, I'd figure it'd just be some finned stainless tubes or something... or corrugated flat plates.
[22:50:58] <furrywolf> corrugated plate exchangers shouldn't be too hard to build
[22:51:03] <andypugh> Lots of wet corrosive goop in exausts when cold
[22:51:51] <andypugh> And then you have to run extra coolant pipes to the exhauts, and control flow through it, etc.
[22:52:12] <zeeshan> i know the solution
[22:52:15] <malcom2073> I have a generator which uses the exhaust to heat up the coolant to warm it up, and also uses the coolant to keep the exhaust manifold cool once it's hot
[22:52:17] <andypugh> I am not saying it can’t be done. I am saying it costs more than the $15 that Ford would pay.
[22:52:18] <zeeshan> you guys are silly, it has been in front of us all along.
[22:52:41] <zeeshan> cut your exhaust manifold off
[22:52:42] <Sync_> well for ice I already have the esc
[22:52:44] <malcom2073> Just pipe the exhaust right into the car!
[22:52:46] <malcom2073> instant heat!
[22:52:49] <zeeshan> LOL
[22:52:51] <zeeshan> there you go!
[22:52:59] <Sync_> malcom2073: bmw basically does that
[22:53:08] <Sync_> gearbox tunnel gets so hot
[22:53:19] <zeeshan> you guys wont believ eme
[22:53:30] <zeeshan> but my rx7 doesn't even have a heat exchanger inside the car anymore
[22:53:42] <zeeshan> the tunnel heat is hot enough to keep me warm during 10C days
[22:53:49] <zeeshan> (any below, the car gets parked anyway)
[22:53:50] <furrywolf> heh
[22:53:52] <malcom2073> My old Nova was like that
[22:53:58] <malcom2073> exhaust pipes went along the tunnel
[22:54:00] <malcom2073> so it got really hot
[22:54:01] <zeeshan> yea dude
[22:54:17] <zeeshan> also if you have a small hole in the gear shifter area
[22:54:20] <zeeshan> and you put your windows down
[22:54:24] <furrywolf> my car's heater core isn't hooked up... it's pretty plugged, and when I did the engine swap, I didn't connect any hoses to it, for fear of crap coming unplugged and ending up in my shiny new radiator.
[22:54:27] <zeeshan> you suck heat from the tunnel into the car
[22:54:29] <malcom2073> Car had no weather stripping though, so it was only warm when not moving :-D
[22:54:41] <zeeshan> mines only warm when moving
[22:54:41] <zeeshan> haha
[22:54:58] <zeeshan> makes you speed :-)
[22:55:05] <furrywolf> my truck gets pretty cold in cold weather, even with the heater. canvas top and no weatherstripping = a bit drafty.
[22:55:22] <furrywolf> "but officer, I was only trying to keep from freezing!"
[22:55:59] <furrywolf> my truck didn't have a heater stock... if you were cold, put on more layers. :P
[22:57:09] <furrywolf> I was planning on a winter trip, and retrofitted a '80s ford truck heater into it, care of some soldering-iron-basic plastic welding.
[22:57:12] <furrywolf> -based
[22:58:14] <just_pink> http://9gag.com/gag/avL7NBb
[22:58:58] <zeeshan> most of my friends are like the woman.
[22:59:03] <zeeshan> (mech eng)
[22:59:04] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: that's nice and sexist.
[22:59:07] <furrywolf> just_pink:
[23:00:05] <Sync_> andypugh: do you happen to know paul veal?
[23:01:49] <malcom2073> Heh, XKCD did a post about the color differences, they should do the same about fasteners
[23:02:09] <XXCoder> isnt just_pink lady too
[23:02:39] <furrywolf> maybe I'm just a redneck, but I consider most of the "features" of new vehicles to be anything but.
[23:03:07] <malcom2073> Most "features" of new vehicles I had years ago via carpc heh
[23:04:47] <furrywolf> malcom2073: your carpc probably didn't fuck with the brakes for you, fuck with the throttle for you, encourage you to not pay attention to the road thinking the car will do it for you, etc.
[23:05:09] <malcom2073> Well no, but that's humanity: Letting the weak survive much to darwins chagrin for millenia!
[23:05:24] <just_pink> XXCoder: yes I'm a woman, but it just funy because I know all of them (and many more)
[23:05:31] <SpeedEvil> The safety features are wholly positive. If you are using them for 10 minutes while you know you may be distracted, and are doing it manually most of the time.
[23:05:58] <SpeedEvil> If you're using them all the time, humans adapt, and will assume they will work all the time, and not be prepared to rapidly take over if they don't.
[23:06:26] <SpeedEvil> Self-driving cars will only make sense when they can deal with a driver that is actually asleep and won't wake up
[23:06:38] <Sync_> I disagree
[23:06:41] <furrywolf> and, as I said before, touchscreens need to stop existing, along with digital dashboards. (at least those that display anything numerically instead of linearly)
[23:06:44] <Sync_> ADAS are a bad thing
[23:06:51] <justanotheruser> furrywolf: what?
[23:07:12] <furrywolf> justanotheruser: I typed just: and got justanotheruser: when I meant just_pink:. sorry about that.
[23:07:14] <SpeedEvil> There is a massive trend in aero accidents towards 'the automation usually works' types of accident
[23:07:24] <andypugh> furrywolf: I am actually of the opinion that digital speedos are better.
[23:07:48] -!- gonzo_nb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[23:07:53] <SpeedEvil> I can glance at a digital speedo faster than analog
[23:08:19] <SpeedEvil> the key is to glance, and not decode it before you look back to the road, but to do the decode while your eye is moving back to the road
[23:08:26] <andypugh> With a traditional gauge you need to work out where the current speed limit is on the gauge, then compare the needle position to that. With a digital speedo you just glance down, read the number, look back at the road then work out what that number means.
[23:08:36] <furrywolf> andypugh: how's that? you have to divert your vision and actually read them, rather than a linear scale you can see with your peripheral vision.
[23:09:04] <furrywolf> if you've driven the same car for more than a week, you don't need to work out where anything is. heh.
[23:09:09] <andypugh> furrywolf: Tach, yes. But the “target” on a speedo changes with the speed limit
[23:09:21] <furrywolf> and who actually looks at the speed limit? lol
[23:09:35] <furrywolf> unless you have a cop tailing you, that is.
[23:09:51] <andypugh> Well, in that case it doesn’t matter of the gauge is on the back seat
[23:10:07] <furrywolf> unless you see a black and white carefully hanging a half mile behind you, in which case you then go exactly 2mph below the speed limit...
[23:10:34] <Sync_> I can usually manage to get the speed right enough by just glancing
[23:10:38] <Sync_> head up would be nice
[23:10:48] <Sync_> although in cars that had it I found it annoying
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[23:11:33] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: also, for some reason I thought you didn't even have a driver's license. lol
[23:11:55] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I don't.
[23:12:09] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: That doesn't mean I haven't been (legally) driving in the past.
[23:12:11] <furrywolf> closest I've used to a heads-up display was a prius that had a weird just-below-the-windshield display... god I hated that car.
[23:12:38] <furrywolf> that was, by far, the hardest to drive, least pleasant vehicle I've used.
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[23:13:13] <furrywolf> the controls did different random things in response to the same force input, it had a touchscreen, it handled like crap,...
[23:13:41] <furrywolf> if you put 10lbs of force on the brake pedal, you should get the same amount of braking. not a completely random amount based on whether the engine is on or off, the state of charge of the batteries, etc.
[23:14:27] <malcom2073> Yeah I hate power brakes too </luddite>
[23:14:28] <malcom2073> :P
[23:15:22] <furrywolf> and even stupid little things that never should have been allowed out of the factory, like the shifter shifting the WRONG DIRECTION if you hit it too quickly. it had a stupid little push forwards/backwards thing for direction, but if you let it spring, it'd bounce all the way until it tripped the opposite direction's switch. very annoying to hit reverse, let off the brakes, and start going forwards.
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[23:15:43] <furrywolf> malcom2073: normal power brakes are very consistent.
[23:16:04] <furrywolf> and don't depend on whether the computer thinks it wants regen braking at that moment and other random factors
[23:16:07] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Depends on the vehicle. I've driven ones as new as 2008 that are inconsistant depending on engine vaccume
[23:16:23] <Sync_> the fuck, what kind of shitty car was that
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[23:16:48] <malcom2073> 2008 <make> <model>, etc etc
[23:17:01] <furrywolf> malcom2073: you should only be using the brakes while the engine is at idle, and it should have a very consistent vacuum. also, the brake booster should store enough vacuum for several full-force brake applications, regardless of whether the engine has any vacuum at all.
[23:17:11] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Unless you're driving an automatic of course
[23:17:33] <furrywolf> no, even on an automatic, you only should be using the brakes with the butterflies fully closed.
[23:17:34] <Sync_> what, why should I only use the brakes when it is at idle
[23:17:57] <malcom2073> I think you mean off throttle, not idle
[23:18:20] * furrywolf re-reads
[23:18:23] <furrywolf> yes, that's what I meant. lol
[23:18:29] <malcom2073> K, just checking :P Was confused
[23:18:58] <furrywolf> I've never driven a vehicle with conventional vacuum servo brakes that had any variation in braking force.
[23:19:02] <malcom2073> I do know what you mean though, we had a ford esape at work with pure electric brakes
[23:19:03] <Sync_> that's not really possible if you are driving fast
[23:19:07] <malcom2073> Very annoying when creeping along in traffic
[23:19:15] <malcom2073> you could FEEL the resolution of the brake pedal encoder
[23:19:26] <furrywolf> that's evil, and scary.
[23:19:43] * furrywolf doesn't think brakes should depend on any electrical systems for basic functionality
[23:19:55] <t12> check out my most absurd plant watering system
[23:19:56] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/i7yejw8w8zyoba7/AABv6TUncyH323RyRplz1RZma
[23:20:00] <furrywolf> if they loose boost, that's ok... but they shouldn't stop working entirely.
[23:20:37] <zeeshan> wat
[23:20:53] <furrywolf> lose
[23:21:06] <zeeshan> t12 that is bad ass!
[23:21:19] <t12> such a pain to hose up tho
[23:21:20] <zeeshan> do you have a garden?
[23:21:26] * furrywolf is still waiting for dropbox to load a bunch of bloat, and has no idea what it is yet
[23:21:38] <t12> if i worked at a garden i'd have one
[23:21:42] <t12> i have a patch of weeds and scrap metal
[23:21:45] <zeeshan> lol
[23:21:45] <Sync_> if your hydroblock valve controller fails you can end up without brakes at all :D
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[23:22:06] <renesis> furrywolf: electrically boosted brakes is maybe better than vacuum boosted
[23:22:20] <furrywolf> Sync_: good thing only one of my vehicles has one, and I don't drive it on the freeway much. :P
[23:22:26] <renesis> lose engine, and vacuum boost is gone but the electrical system should still be up
[23:22:38] <zeeshan> wat
[23:22:50] <zeeshan> you need to see howstuffworks again
[23:22:51] <zeeshan> ;]
[23:22:54] <furrywolf> renesis: all properly functional vacuum booster systems store enough vacuum for several full-force brake applications.
[23:22:58] <zeeshan> ^
[23:23:06] <zeeshan> like 8 full depresses
[23:23:09] <renesis> right maybe two or three
[23:23:09] <zeeshan> on my car at least
[23:23:15] <furrywolf> zeeshan: nah, 2-3.
[23:23:18] <renesis> so downhill and some evasive shit
[23:23:19] <zeeshan> MY CAR
[23:23:23] <zeeshan> DO YOU HJAVE MY CAR?
[23:23:28] <zeeshan> thats what i thought!
[23:23:38] <furrywolf> yes. have you looked in your garage lately to prove I don't? :P
[23:23:45] <zeeshan> :D
[23:23:54] <zeeshan> that stupid brake booster
[23:23:58] <zeeshan> madfe my life a miserable hell
[23:24:01] <zeeshan> for routing a down pipe
[23:24:06] <zeeshan> bastards made it twice what it needed to be
[23:24:16] <zeeshan> (the whole reason i need an oval flange!)
[23:24:21] <renesis> so back to my point, theres no reason an electrical system would stop assisting for an engine failure
[23:24:30] <furrywolf> t12: I've seen watering systems like that before, but they had a very different variety of plant being watered.
[23:24:43] <furrywolf> renesis: so how about in case of an electrical failure? :P
[23:24:50] <t12> i kinda wonder if i could just use pneumatic valve arrays
[23:24:57] <zeeshan> so let me clarify this
[23:25:01] <renesis> prob about as likely as a vacuum failure
[23:25:13] <zeeshan> you're saying an electric motor will outlast a diaphragm?
[23:25:16] <zeeshan> LOL
[23:25:22] <furrywolf> the only time you use fancy metering pumps like that are when you're pumping nutrients that would clog ordinary drippers. otherwise you just use drippers.
[23:25:29] <furrywolf> and a single pump
[23:25:32] <andypugh> Diesel cars have vacuum brakes. That’s crazy, because diesel engines don’t have manifold vacuum
[23:25:40] <renesis> zeeshan: theres hoses
[23:25:47] <renesis> and vacuum assists do fail
[23:25:52] <furrywolf> andypugh: ford solved that with a little vacuum pump under the power steering pump with a belt from it. :)
[23:25:56] <andypugh> So you have a special little engine-driven vacuum pump just for the brakes.
[23:25:56] <renesis> and something with both systems would be safest
[23:25:57] <fenn> t12 what's the wifi for? you don't seem to have any sensors
[23:25:57] <zeeshan> dude i had a 240sx which was completely rusted
[23:26:05] <t12> theres an edison on it
[23:26:05] <zeeshan> and the brake booster still worked
[23:26:05] <furrywolf> or maybe it's under the alternator. been a whle since I changed one.
[23:26:08] <t12> control is via ssh heh
[23:26:08] <zeeshan> shit i even blow up the brake lines
[23:26:09] <furrywolf> I remember it has a little mini belt.
[23:26:14] <zeeshan> (which is when i junked the car)
[23:26:51] <zeeshan> andypugh: me and furry were discussing remote brake booster relocation a while back
[23:26:53] <renesis> and what is there to break in a linear motor
[23:26:54] <furrywolf> t12: so, now that you've taken the public pictures, you're swapping in a few trays of trainwreck clones? because that's the only time I ever see watering systems like that. :P
[23:26:54] <zeeshan> didnt find a good alternative
[23:27:07] <t12> hahah
[23:27:24] <t12> prolly would be nice for a fancy clone rig
[23:27:37] <Sync_> zeeshan: adapt an electric booster
[23:27:38] <andypugh> Well, the ABS pump seems to work OK when called upon, so why do you need a vacuum boost for non-ABS operation
[23:27:53] <t12> i think i just went over the top on this for entertainment
[23:28:18] <furrywolf> I don't care where boost comes from, as long as you have manual, non-boosted, mechanical braking if it fails.
[23:28:23] <t12> would like to swap the pump out for something quieter, syringe stepper is loud
[23:28:30] <t12> like an hplc pump or something
[23:28:33] <renesis> hydraulic brakes ftw
[23:28:49] <renesis> so having something truly redundant would be cool
[23:29:08] <renesis> directly actuate the brakes with voice coil style motors
[23:29:09] <Sync_> 4 caliper brake with 2 hydraulic circuits?
[23:29:20] <Sync_> that does not provide enough force
[23:29:28] <renesis> so you could eaily do parallel vacuum and electrical boost
[23:29:37] <Sync_> teves tried it with that wedge
[23:29:44] <renesis> and if your hydraulic system or electrical system failed, the other could still function
[23:29:44] <furrywolf> vacuum boosters are surprisingly reliable... in all the vehicles I've worked on, I've never seen a bad one. I have, however, seen several failed ABS valve blocks, and one failed electrical boost system.
[23:29:44] <Sync_> but that had reliability issues
[23:30:31] <renesis> the hoses fail
[23:30:44] <renesis> i know of at least one unit that failed
[23:30:52] <furrywolf> on the failed electrical one, the accumulator pod diaphragm failed, so it would only boost as fast as the electric pump could apply pressure.... which was pretty slowly.
[23:30:53] <renesis> so it cant be that rare
[23:31:09] <Sync_> only with bad maintainance
[23:31:16] <Sync_> sometimes the pipes burst
[23:31:17] <renesis> right im saying just actuate with a linear motor directly
[23:31:19] <Sync_> but that is rare
[23:31:28] <renesis> put a coil on the caliper
[23:31:33] <Sync_> that will not be packageable
[23:31:41] <Sync_> and does not develop enough force
[23:31:47] <renesis> and have electrical and hydraulic redundant systems
[23:31:52] <furrywolf> renesis: the standard dual hydraulic system is enough redundancy for most cases.
[23:31:56] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: It could. It wouldn't be light
[23:32:03] <zeeshan> why change something that works so well
[23:32:03] <zeeshan> is my q
[23:32:08] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: and would need some sort of gearing, ...
[23:32:09] <Sync_> so you get assloads of unsprung weight
[23:32:13] <fenn> you could do a 3-point lever like vise grip pliers
[23:32:31] <renesis> to eventually have electric brakes without hydraulics
[23:32:38] <SpeedEvil> Sync_: at that point, you might almost as well go with a wheelmotor and say screwit
[23:32:40] <zeeshan> F that.
[23:32:45] <zeeshan> i don't see any benefit in doing that
[23:32:46] <zeeshan> at all
[23:32:47] <furrywolf> Sync_: you could do it like trailer brakes, where the electrical actuation applies a clutch that uses the wheel's rotation to actually apply the brakes. but, as I said, I don't think it's needed. the standard dual hydraulic system seems to work well.
[23:32:51] <renesis> it wont be for another 10-20 years
[23:33:02] <Sync_> well
[23:33:03] <zeeshan> ill give you a $100
[23:33:10] <zeeshan> if i see hydraulics replaced with electric brakes
[23:33:10] <Sync_> as I said, the camming ones exist
[23:33:11] <zeeshan> lol
[23:33:22] <zeeshan> in 20 years!
[23:33:25] <renesis> when it happen $100 will be worth $.05
[23:33:26] <Sync_> no
[23:33:30] <Sync_> they are actually real zeeshan
[23:33:31] <zeeshan> hahaha
[23:33:36] <zeeshan> you got it right away :(
[23:33:37] <zeeshan> damn it
[23:33:44] <renesis> because the whole thing will be electronic
[23:34:05] <Sync_> interestingly it is a huge research area, because they react faster than hydraulics
[23:34:12] <zeeshan> i had drive by wire throttle boddy
[23:34:18] <zeeshan> chucked that nonsense out
[23:34:22] <zeeshan> biggest pos i've ever used
[23:34:22] <Sync_> if you have a high performance traction control it needs to move a lot of fluid
[23:34:31] <renesis> mass production drive by wire is really bad
[23:34:34] <furrywolf> speaking of excessive force.... I really, really hate miniature drum parking brakes inside of perfectly good disc brakes. sooo many extra things to fail for no reason whatsoever.
[23:35:00] <zeeshan> Sync_: if it's strictly for performan,ce i'd add an aux system
[23:35:05] <zeeshan> not replace the good ol reliable hyd brakes
[23:35:14] <furrywolf> as far as I can figure, the only possible reason they'd add all those extra parts is to reduce the force needed to apply the e-brake.
[23:35:27] <renesis> um if its performance, you check the hydraulic system because having two would be heavier
[23:35:33] <furrywolf> and yet, my subaru has the e-brake actuating the front disc calipers, with no problems at all.
[23:35:36] <renesis> *chuck
[23:36:13] <renesis> but the latency and resolution of mass production auto controls are just silly
[23:36:54] <furrywolf> I don't see any reason for drive-by-wire throttles on any non-hybrid gasoline vehicle.
[23:37:10] <renesis> for dynamic engine control
[23:37:11] <zeeshan> well one arguement is the fact you can get rid of idle air control motors
[23:37:17] <zeeshan> and use the tb to do idle air
[23:37:26] <renesis> variable valve systems, variable gas pedal maps
[23:37:39] <zeeshan> also you can prevent tb sticking
[23:37:39] <furrywolf> on hybrids, it makes sense. on common-rail diesels, it makes sense. but on gasoline non-hybrids...
[23:37:52] <renesis> yeah my car does not engine brake like a cable throttle
[23:37:59] <furrywolf> I don't need nor want a variable gas pedal map. heh.
[23:38:01] <renesis> it floats it, i guess for low emissions
[23:38:10] <renesis> i dont, but i think i have it
[23:38:15] <zeeshan> it also allows manufacturers to control you from abusing your car
[23:38:18] <zeeshan> "torque management"
[23:38:29] <furrywolf> zeeshan: then they should build it better. :P
[23:38:31] <renesis> and in general, its way to sensitive and im pretty sure im only using a few bits of adc resolution
[23:38:40] <PetefromTn_> LOL my good friend just called me I have not spoken to in awhile...
[23:39:00] <PetefromTn_> I had built a nice big deck on the back of his house years ago almost a decade ago now
[23:39:10] <PetefromTn_> and he told me he bought a hot tub
[23:39:22] <PetefromTn_> and wanted to know if I thought he could put it on the deck
[23:39:24] <renesis> broke the deck?!
[23:39:29] <PetefromTn_> I was like NOOOO
[23:39:32] <renesis> oh good he asked
[23:39:40] <PetefromTn_> then we were talking about the hot tub
[23:39:41] <renesis> he bought it before knowing?
[23:39:48] <Sync_> http://www.at-rs.de/tl_files/blog/Continental_EHC_Eektromechanische_Radbremse.jpg
[23:39:48] <PetefromTn_> and he told be about something I have never seen before
[23:40:01] <furrywolf> and to be honest, on a hybrid, I can picture how to build it with a non-drive-by-wire setup. have a differential linkage where the amount of power being supplied from the electric motor from the throttle position given by the cable...
[23:40:05] <PetefromTn_> apparenlty they now sell some really cool inflatable hot tubs!!
[23:40:10] <PetefromTn_> I had no idea
[23:40:16] <furrywolf> is subtracted from
[23:40:17] <renesis> sync_: neat, but i could prob just do a simpler design
[23:40:27] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: put it indoors! heh
[23:40:33] <renesis> like a solenoid, or speaker voice coil
[23:40:37] <PetefromTn_> and he told me we are invited over to check it out once he gets it setup!
[23:40:38] <Valen> if its throttle by wire it'll have a pair of hall effect sensors mounted at 90 degrees to each other as a rule
[23:40:39] <PetefromTn_> WIN!!
[23:40:51] <Valen> if the sensors disagree by more than X then it'll shut down
[23:40:57] <PetefromTn_> These things are pretty cool and also relativley cheap
[23:41:02] <XXCoder> like this PetefromTn_ http://41.media.tumblr.com/4be9ee687893b2979ffa809ddbf84928/tumblr_nrlll4xFUL1rrqskho1_500.jpg
[23:41:08] <furrywolf> Sync_: it's hard to believe that's faster than a convention hydraulic and vacuum servo system.
[23:41:08] <renesis> furrywolf: if i had access to maps and time to tweak, i maybe wouldnt mind
[23:41:14] <renesis> but i dont and i wont pay for it
[23:41:42] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoTAfaihwQM
[23:42:13] <renesis> but yeah as is, the pedal is way too sensitive, so they filtered it way to much, which makes it way too latent, and the engine brake mapping is annoying the drop way too slow
[23:42:18] <PetefromTn_> Looks pretty sweet and easily inflatable so you can set it up and take it down pretty easy....
[23:42:21] <furrywolf> also, it's hard to believe they can keep that greased adequately. even pistons submerged in brake fluid seize...
[23:42:40] <Valen> renesis: you will probably find that its just "light" like all modern cars
[23:43:04] <PetefromTn_> we have an above ground pool here but I have always kinda wanted a hot tub but never really wanted to build a whole setup for one..
[23:43:05] <furrywolf> renesis: "<renesis> like a solenoid, or speaker voice coil" if you have no clue what you're talking about, read up on the topic first.
[23:43:12] <Valen> I can't drive my mothers rav4, after getting out of my 15 year old 4 litre in-line 6
[23:43:13] <renesis> the motor components? the mapping?
[23:43:37] <Valen> the spring pushing on the pedal will be light
[23:43:48] <renesis> furrywolf: i dont see a tiny gear train in the image as being super reliable
[23:44:05] <renesis> it is light, comically compared to the volvo
[23:44:14] <renesis> but also its everything else i mentioned
[23:44:22] <JT-Shop> so the free plumbing request tossed in a manual for my Kobuta B7500 into the hat
[23:44:28] <renesis> i literally use like 2-3mm of pedal travel, normal driving
[23:44:36] <Sync_> furrywolf: why?
[23:44:40] <Sync_> torque control is very fast
[23:44:41] <furrywolf> renesis: you clearly do not understand the thousands of pounds of force that are needed to actuate a disc brake. I think my van probably puts around 6000lbs of force on the pads, just to pick a random number.
[23:45:11] <furrywolf> Sync_: there's always spring in the caliper, and that has a lot of rotation, motor inertia, etc...
[23:45:20] <renesis> furrywolf: so more current and tighter gaps, shrug
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[23:45:40] <renesis> tiny lever arms
[23:46:15] <SpeedEvil> renesis: saturation rapidly kicks in
[23:46:19] <SpeedEvil> ~1 tesla or so
[23:46:35] <renesis> right so theyd prob be big =\
[23:46:38] <furrywolf> and the hydraulic force travels at around the speed of sound, other than the same movement the electric brake system would have to move.
[23:46:48] <Sync_> so what? you can have the torque control running at 10kHz and model your flex
[23:46:53] <Sync_> it is not too much of an issue
[23:47:05] <SpeedEvil> The force that is easy to do with a geared motor doing many revs is really hard to do with a solenoid
[23:47:11] <furrywolf> Sync_: I'm talking about the time from pedal applied to pads applied...
[23:47:26] <Sync_> that should be in the range of microseconds
[23:48:02] <renesis> id prob guess mille, theres capacitance in the lines
[23:48:24] <Sync_> what has capacitiance do with it?
[23:48:27] <furrywolf> eh? I can't imagine less than a half turn of the drive screw between pads-just-not-quite-touching and stopping.... figure that's 5 motor revs... you can state the motor rotating and rotate it five times in microseconds? heh
[23:48:52] <Valen> most people have quite poor "feel" for the position of their foot, and mostly operate by pressure, see if you can uprate the spring in there
[23:48:55] <renesis> if the lines are expanding theyre not necessarily delivering power until theyve expended as much as theyre going to
[23:48:58] <renesis> which takes time
[23:49:16] <Sync_> that portion is very low
[23:49:17] <zeeshan> valen, youre telling me you're not supposed to just slam on the brakes?!?!
[23:49:17] <renesis> why rubber vs braided steel hoses
[23:49:24] <Sync_> furrywolf: you can have very high angular accelerations
[23:49:52] <furrywolf> for comparrison, subaru's e-brake uses a rotating screw like that. it has a much coarser screw thread, and it takes about 60 degrees of rotation to apply e-brake levels of force.
[23:50:07] <Valen> I was talking about renesis's throttle
[23:50:24] <zeeshan> valen, youre telling me you're not supposed to just slam on the gas pedal?!?!
[23:50:31] <zeeshan> :-)
[23:50:41] <renesis> personally, i think a scion product manager told the engineers 'yo this is pussy make it feel like my lexus'
[23:50:45] <Valen> you are, but you need something inbetween stop and go as you exit the corner
[23:50:47] <renesis> so they did
[23:50:58] <zeeshan> to me a throttle is binary
[23:51:00] <zeeshan> on or off :D
[23:51:12] <zeeshan> you compensate slowing down by drifting
[23:51:17] <zeeshan> and burning out the tires
[23:51:18] <zeeshan> !
[23:51:20] <furrywolf> with that thread pitch, based on my experience with subaru's brakes, I estimate the half turn on that screw.
[23:51:28] <Valen> I can see brake by wire happening, it means they don't need a whole bunch of rubber and fluid and things. It'll just be a multiply redundant system like in aircraft
[23:51:34] <renesis> thats prob fine on a track with runoff
[23:52:09] <Sync_> Valen: or just 3 phase wires
[23:52:33] <furrywolf> Sync_: 5 revs in 100us would be 300,000 rpm...
[23:52:38] <furrywolf> 5 revs in 1000us
[23:52:46] <andypugh> I am not sure. Hydraulics give really good feedback
[23:52:56] <renesis> yeah it feels awesome
[23:53:05] <zeeshan> andypugh: im glad you think that way
[23:53:11] <Valen> put 2x electro mechanical systems in there to actuate the pad, either one of which will have sufficient force to apply the brake, have their motion checked such that the failing device is known about and triggers a "check brake" light
[23:53:12] <zeeshan> i was getting worried with the way this conversation was going
[23:53:17] <renesis> 10-20 years is how long i think itll take to figure out feedback issues
[23:53:22] <fenn> human reaction time is on the order of 200 milliseconds, why are you guys talking about microseconds
[23:53:24] <Sync_> furrywolf: yes, but it is not spinning at that rate constantly
[23:53:24] <furrywolf> and, yep, that's another issue andy broght up. in addition to the electrical brakes, you'll need a complex force-feedback pedal, which will be expensive.
[23:53:41] <zeeshan> fenn: talk about yourself
[23:53:46] <Sync_> or you just don't have that furrywolf
[23:53:46] <andypugh> I wouldn’t really want brake-by-wire on the front end of my R1 heading in to Park Corner at Cadwell Park
[23:53:46] <zeeshan> :-)
[23:53:47] <Valen> compared to all the crap in a vacuum assisted brake booster?
[23:53:52] <renesis> only expensive because its not a standard thing yet
[23:54:08] <Valen> for the pedal it'd be a solenoid and that's about all ;->
[23:54:12] <furrywolf> Sync_: just don't feel what the vehicle is doing? :P
[23:54:22] <zeeshan> andypugh: im sure you wouldn't want it on the minivan trying to brake at a red light at the intersection you're crossing either!
[23:54:29] <Sync_> the average driver does not care about brakepedal feel as long as it is firm
[23:54:46] <renesis> thats prob true
[23:54:47] <Valen> andypugh: you want it on the A380 that's coming in hot with your ass on it into a wet runway at heathrow?
[23:54:58] <furrywolf> Sync_: also, as a practical matter, I don't think that system shown there will be reliable due to lubrication and wear issues.
[23:55:03] <Valen> everything in aircraft these days is electromechanical and redundant
[23:55:13] <Valen> they just run power and signal wires out to the wings
[23:55:13] <andypugh> Yeah, that’s an altogether different sort of system.
[23:55:13] <renesis> average driver dont like steering or pedal feel
[23:55:26] <renesis> feels mean something might be wrong
[23:55:48] <Sync_> furrywolf: maintainance problem
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[23:55:59] <Sync_> car will not start without dealer inspection
[23:56:00] <andypugh> Actually…. Drivers do like steering feel and complain a lot if they don’t have it. Or even if its a bit funny.
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[23:56:08] <Valen> on the plus side, brake by wire might tell people their pads are worn before they start grinding rotors
[23:56:16] <zeeshan> valen there are also like 50 a380s
[23:56:18] <zeeshan> and 239031289321903903812903 cars
[23:56:22] <furrywolf> it gets too hot for most lubricants. even high-temp disc brake silicone grease on caliper slider pins goes bad in normal use, and that's not subjected to nearly the pressures of that geartrain, the force between the splined piston and the caliper body, the screw, etc.
[23:56:31] <renesis> andypugh: drivers are the monority, there are many more people who drive
[23:56:38] <renesis> if you want to categorize it like that
[23:56:38] <Sync_> furrywolf: pfpe
[23:56:40] <renesis> i like feels
[23:56:58] <Sync_> andypugh: did you drive the bmw concept with the adaptive gain steering wheel?
[23:57:02] <andypugh> Even car-users notice. They just don’t know what they are noticing.
[23:57:19] <andypugh> We have that on some Fords. I am not a fan.
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[23:57:50] <Valen> zeeshan so?
[23:57:53] <andypugh> But, I need to be asleep.
[23:57:54] <furrywolf> Sync_: also, what benefit is all the extra complexity supposed to provide, anyway? even if, for the sake of argument, it's a couple miliseconds faster, no one will notice.
[23:58:04] <Sync_> haha furrywolf you bet
[23:58:08] <zeeshan> so i put jmoney that if more cars electromechanical brakes
[23:58:17] <zeeshan> @ the quality if making car parts
[23:58:19] <Valen> it's meant to make stuff cheaper for manufacturers, that's the only reason anything happens
[23:58:22] <zeeshan> we'd have a lot more deaths :)
[23:58:22] <Sync_> braking distance on variable traction surfaces goes way down furrywolf
[23:58:39] <zeeshan> how is adding a sophisticated braking system going to make things cheaper?
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[23:58:45] <zeeshan> hydraulic is as dumb as a rock
[23:58:46] <andypugh> furrywolf: I have heard people say that they prefer the faster response of _narrower_ brake lines in racing applications....
[23:58:48] <zeeshan> and old ass technology
[23:58:53] <Sync_> andypugh: the full tilt the wheel no more than x° always deal?
[23:58:59] <Sync_> that was pretty strange for me to drive
[23:59:14] <Sync_> variable pitch racks are fine for me
[23:59:20] <furrywolf> Sync_: the best braking distance is to LOCK THE WHEELS. it's been shown in every single test that considers those of us in rural areas where dirt and gravel is common.
[23:59:22] <furrywolf> I hate ABS.
[23:59:28] <Sync_> it is not furrywolf
[23:59:29] <zeeshan> furrywolf: no its not
[23:59:29] <zeeshan> you be wrong there sir
[23:59:36] <andypugh> The mapping between wheel-angle and steering-wheel angle changes with speed
[23:59:43] <furrywolf> zeeshan: oh? you've found a test that says ABS stops faster on gravel?
[23:59:43] <Sync_> yeah
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[23:59:51] <Valen> oh screw the crap out of that andypugh ;->
[23:59:55] <Sync_> furrywolf: drive a proper vehicle
[23:59:59] <Sync_> with gravel detection