#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-06-29

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[00:00:21] <furrywolf> dunno. couldn't find specs on line, and I'm too lazy to 'scope it. I'm using outback's box that gives you data over rs232.
[00:00:36] <zeeshan> its gotta be some standard protocol
[00:00:57] <furrywolf> doubtful, since it also does the phase synchronization over it, which implies hard real time...
[00:01:50] <furrywolf> it would be very amusing if bus collisions resulted in parallel inverters getting out of phase. :P
[00:02:06] <zeeshan> canbus can do realtime
[00:02:28] <furrywolf> it uses a hub, I know that much.
[00:02:34] <furrywolf> I have a 4-port hub, they also have a 10port available.
[00:03:47] <furrywolf> bbl, store, food, shower.
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[00:25:25] <Jymmm> store food shower? Does it was the inside of can goods too?
[00:25:28] <Jymmm> wash*
[00:25:52] <Jymmm> like those spraers in the pridce dept
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[00:25:56] <Jymmm> sprayers
[00:26:11] <Jymmm> produce*
[00:27:01] * Jymmm ponders if dsylexic fingers is a real thing?
[00:28:28] <LeelooMinai> Porablby not
[00:28:48] <Jymmm> if it is, I caught it from you =)
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[00:29:53] <malcom2073> haha
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[00:31:15] <Jymmm> I wonder if this is a repackaged roofing coating? http://www.amazon.com/Dial-Evaporative-Cooler-Coating-Black/dp/B000BQUUT4/
[00:32:28] <malcom2073> Wait, I thought swap coolers were just a thing rednecks did with their spare ice, that's actually a *thing*?
[00:32:59] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Oh yeah, especially in low humidity cliamtes like AZ NV NM
[00:33:16] <malcom2073> I guess living in such a high humidity area it never occured to me that people would actually do that
[00:33:40] <Jymmm> They work REALLY well too
[00:34:03] <Jymmm> drop temps at least 30 degrees F
[00:34:21] <malcom2073> Wow nice
[00:34:36] <Jymmm> Water is an exceptional heat sink
[00:34:53] <malcom2073> Yeah I just started wikipeding about it heh
[00:35:13] <Jymmm> Now, during the monsoon season in AZ each year. forget it... hit the AC!!!
[00:36:57] <Jymmm> You'll have heavy calcium deposits each year, and you replace the pads each year. but thats about it.
[00:37:11] <malcom2073> Hmm, cool
[00:37:22] <malcom2073> shame it never hits below 50% humidity here
[00:37:23] <Jymmm> But on roof top units, many dont do maintance like that
[00:37:41] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Whaere are you and on how many acres?
[00:38:02] <malcom2073> South central PA, and only 1.5 acres
[00:38:11] <malcom2073> I've thought about doing geothermal cooling using trench dug lines
[00:38:22] <malcom2073> Can be DIY'ed with a ditch witch and a weekend
[00:38:24] <Jymmm> malcom2073: You know, that 6ft below you is 58F
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[00:38:28] <malcom2073> Yep
[00:39:07] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Just dig a well, toss some tubing down it, and youre good summer and winter
[00:39:12] <malcom2073> Have to convert to central air to take real advantage of that though, or find some creative way of piping the cool water to distribution units in each room. It's a project that will someday be done heh
[00:39:21] <Jymmm> in the summer, you can even do solar
[00:39:26] <malcom2073> Yeah, a $200 ditch witch rental, or $4000 well drill :-P
[00:39:52] <malcom2073> You need a decent amount of linear footage underground to absorb the heat
[00:39:55] <Jymmm> OH, use one of those fiber optic drillers
[00:39:57] <malcom2073> otherwise that patch of ground will get warm
[00:40:07] <Jymmm> have you seen them?
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[00:40:14] <malcom2073> No, do tell?
[00:40:26] <malcom2073> Ohhh directional drilling
[00:40:28] <malcom2073> I've heard of that before
[00:40:46] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: http://www.dialmfg.com/Technical%20Assistance/MSDS/Cooler%20Coating_files/2012%20Cooler%20Coating%20MSDS%205347-5351-5366.pdf
[00:40:47] <Jymmm> Ueah, it's shallow, just drills a holehoritontally
[00:40:49] <malcom2073> It's all the craze nowadays in cheaply laying cable without digging up road/driveways/etc
[00:41:16] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Yep, that is EXACTLY what it is, roof coating
[00:41:22] <Jymmm> bastards =)
[00:41:37] <malcom2073> I wonder if you can rent a directional driller
[00:41:39] <CaptHindsight> uhmerikan kapitalists
[00:41:43] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Glad I caught it BEFORE buying the roof coating =)
[00:42:14] <Jymmm> I'm still pondering gargae floor exoxy paint
[00:42:31] <CaptHindsight> probably the best price
[00:42:46] <CaptHindsight> but not formulated to flex much
[00:43:03] <Jymmm> http://www.amazon.com/Rubberized-Spray-Coating-16-Aerosol/dp/B000R84CA4
[00:43:40] <CaptHindsight> that the one we didn't know what the actual "rubber" is
[00:44:07] <Jymmm> I saw this too, still not sure http://www.amazon.com/Packaging-300-0-1-Qt-Submarine-Sealer/dp/B00GVKV0NY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_60_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=0F8M893E04DBP0RNDSNW
[00:44:13] <malcom2073> ohhhhh sunbelt might rent them
[00:44:29] <CaptHindsight> automotive undercoating
[00:45:04] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Funny thing, the conduit they use to protect fiber optic cable is the EXACT same HDPE /pex crap just in 2" form
[00:45:07] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: have a pic of the cooler?
[00:45:30] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Nice. Yeah sunbelt rents a 2" horizontalboring tool (I assume that comes with the power feed? I'd have to check) for $200 a day
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[00:45:38] <malcom2073> Though tbh
[00:45:49] <malcom2073> where I'd put it, is a large flat area. Probably easier to just dig a trench
[00:45:51] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: It's really any cooler, this is a random pic I found http://cdn.gogetfunding.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/38483/IMG_0472.JPG
[00:46:38] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: http://modesto.craigslist.org/app/5086711325.html
[00:46:44] <malcom2073> Hmm, trenchers only go down to 36" :/
[00:46:58] <CaptHindsight> some duct tape and super spray rubber sealer and it's good to go 5 + more years
[00:47:08] <Jymmm> hahaha
[00:47:31] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: no rubber sprayjust use plastic sheet
[00:47:38] <Jymmm> and red duct tape
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[00:48:26] <Jymmm> I still have no clue why a HDPE swamp cooler hasn't been made yet
[00:48:52] <CaptHindsight> https://img0.etsystatic.com/003/0/5647924/il_fullxfull.379120464_mvmp.jpg the pattern confuses the gremlins so they don't attack it
[00:48:54] <Jymmm> IF they can make jumbo trashcans and palyhouse out of the shit, why not a rust proof swamp cooler
[00:49:24] <CaptHindsight> that would be like making razor blades that don't get dull
[00:49:40] <CaptHindsight> silly idea
[00:49:42] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Yeah, you're right, wtf was I thinking
[00:50:30] <CaptHindsight> F*** you thats why, just give us your money
[00:50:31] * Jymmm whsitle while hiding the sheets of HDPE
[00:50:38] <CaptHindsight> like everything else
[00:51:18] <Jymmm> Honestly though, at $600 for a swamp cooler, I could make a $800 one and it would sell
[00:51:36] <CaptHindsight> Jymmm: the sad part is that there's hardly anyone left that would actually care about products that last
[00:51:43] <malcom2073> Looks like minimum of 3ft
[00:51:44] <CaptHindsight> the brand name is far more important
[00:52:06] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: sad, but true
[00:52:31] <Jymmm> That's why I NEVER loan out tools. Some of which I can never replace
[00:52:45] <CaptHindsight> remember when there were TV commercials about being best, most reliable etc etc
[00:52:55] <CaptHindsight> it's odd to watch them now
[00:52:58] <malcom2073> Heh, remember Maytag? Nobody else does
[00:52:59] <Jymmm> Disposable society
[00:53:10] <CaptHindsight> Maytag exactly
[00:53:23] <malcom2073> Maytag repairman nowadays isn't bored for lack of breaking, he's bored for lack of work, since people just throw out and buy new
[00:53:25] <Jymmm> The lonely maytag repair man
[00:53:49] <Jymmm> nobody gets a tv/stereo fixed
[00:54:18] <malcom2073> On the bright side, craigslist has lots of broken stuff forcheap
[00:55:01] <Jymmm> My phone audio went bad, but I have a MasterCard warranty. They wanted a repair estimate, I went to 5 places, nobody gives repair estiamtes
[00:55:12] <CaptHindsight> even large machine tools get written off after ~10 years
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[00:55:47] <Jymmm> I wnet back to frys, talked to the store manager, as they are a licensed electronics rapair center "we dont repair phones",
[00:55:56] <CaptHindsight> I know this great cell phone repair mall in HK
[00:56:02] <CaptHindsight> they have all the parts
[00:56:07] <malcom2073> heh
[00:56:09] <Jymmm> He wrote me a repair quote for the time
[00:56:46] <Jymmm> I submitted it to the insurance comapny, they called the store, I explained that is the best I could do, nobody does this kind of repair.
[00:57:19] <Jymmm> They called the manufcturer, they said they dont do repairs either, the insurance company is sending me a check for the full purchase price.
[00:57:25] <malcom2073> lol nice
[00:57:41] <Jymmm> But, to beign the claim, they HAD to have a repair estimate.
[00:57:49] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBMevfUGsHQ heh a video
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[00:58:28] <CaptHindsight> those are HK $ prices
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[00:58:53] <Jymmm> I'm liking my Huawei Ascend MAte 2
[00:58:57] <CaptHindsight> ~7.7:1
[00:59:11] <malcom2073> I need to get a new phone, this republic wireless crap is getting annoying
[00:59:32] <Jymmm> 6.1" screen, unlocked, and I got the bootloader unlock code from the factory too
[00:59:56] <malcom2073> Bet you look like a right trendy fool with that thing on your ear
[01:00:01] <Jymmm> They are really trying to get into the US market
[01:00:26] <Jymmm> I could care less, I can read the screen without xooming of scrolling =)
[01:00:33] <CaptHindsight> falls back to Sprint's cellular network
[01:00:34] <malcom2073> lol
[01:01:01] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I'm 6'4", so it's actually "my size" scale wise
[01:01:23] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: yeah, but the service isn't the issue, it's the constantly switching between wifi/cell, dropping calls when doing so, and preferring to rely on a shitty wifi connection with bad call quality that annoys me
[01:01:25] <CaptHindsight> malcom2073: how often are calls actually over wifi?
[01:01:26] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Haha
[01:01:36] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Most of the time, since I work from home
[01:01:50] <Jymmm> malcom2073: not holding a dinky toy phoen to my ear
[01:01:50] <CaptHindsight> why not Skype at home
[01:02:06] <CaptHindsight> and just get a real 3/4g phone for away
[01:02:17] <malcom2073> Or I get a 3/4g phone for both away and home?
[01:02:28] <malcom2073> I have shitty internet
[01:02:31] <malcom2073> it doesn't like doing phone calls
[01:02:34] <CaptHindsight> if you have coverage
[01:02:38] <malcom2073> I do
[01:02:40] <malcom2073> The coverage isn't the issue
[01:02:44] <Jymmm> malcom2073: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ML5GyPn4QI
[01:02:57] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I can charge OTHER devices FROM the phone
[01:03:02] <malcom2073> lol
[01:03:11] <Jymmm> 4000mAh battery
[01:03:28] <malcom2073> Yeah that's nuts huge
[01:04:44] <malcom2073> Tbh, price is more key to me than the phone itself
[01:04:56] <malcom2073> I'm thinking of doing straighttalk, pay as you go
[01:05:05] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I got it for $195 + a $25 gift card
[01:05:10] <malcom2073> NOt bad
[01:05:13] <Jymmm> malcom2073: I AM using prepaid
[01:05:17] <malcom2073> Lotta phone (size!) for the money
[01:05:18] <malcom2073> heh
[01:06:03] <malcom2073> Like I said, the phone doesn't matter that much to me
[01:06:09] <malcom2073> I use my phone for phone,txt, and email. That's really it
[01:06:19] <malcom2073> Pretty much any smart phone does that
[01:06:37] <Jymmm> I watch netflix on it
[01:06:43] <malcom2073> Yeah I have a TV for that :-P
[01:06:48] <Jymmm> I dl movies to it
[01:06:50] <malcom2073> But at 6.1", why not
[01:07:17] <Jymmm> and a 4AH battery =)
[01:08:03] <malcom2073> Glad you like it so much :P
[01:08:24] <Jymmm> I can't see paying $600 for aphone that you are going to replace in a year
[01:08:28] <malcom2073> Me neither
[01:08:40] <Jymmm> electronics have no residual value these days
[01:08:42] <malcom2073> I think I paid $100 for mine, 3 years ago heh
[01:09:05] <CaptHindsight> heh smartphones are becoming less voice call friendly
[01:09:10] <malcom2073> They really are
[01:09:22] <malcom2073> iphone is the only one I've ever been able to just pick up, and make a phone call on without having to fiddle with :/
[01:09:26] <malcom2073> Which is a shame because of how expensive they are
[01:09:34] <Jymmm> I have a draw full of phones, thay all work, the problem? cant rpelace the batteries or are too costly to repace
[01:09:51] <Jymmm> with REAL batteries, not chinese ones
[01:09:59] <CaptHindsight> it's like they only poll teens that text about how to improve the phone app in android
[01:10:30] <malcom2073> It's android, most of the apps are written by teens
[01:10:39] <CaptHindsight> sure seems that way
[01:11:27] <Tom_itx> i bet i'll never know half my phone's capabilities
[01:11:32] <CaptHindsight> speaking of apps I need one for IOS and Android that takes a picture of your shirt and tells you if it's dirty
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[01:11:48] <malcom2073> Obvious troll is obvious? Or were you serious?
[01:11:59] <CaptHindsight> for people that need to told what do do, drink, eat, etc
[01:12:18] <CaptHindsight> like those water bottles on poopstarter
[01:12:29] <malcom2073> Ah ok the conversation is going there.
[01:12:44] <malcom2073> Jymmm: What pay as you go service do you use?
[01:13:57] <CaptHindsight> oh, or an app that tells you when your phone is obsolete, out of fashion, no longer a status symbol etc
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[01:14:23] <CaptHindsight> hey loser, get a new phone
[01:14:40] <Tom_itx> CaptHindsight, that's pretty easy... just a soon as the next one is available
[01:15:05] <malcom2073> Oh nice, so most of these plans, offera set amount of 4g service, then they downgrade you to "low speed" for the rest of the month. Which is classified as 128kbps. Wtf happened to 3g?
[01:15:10] <CaptHindsight> Tom_itx: but it should use public ridicule if you don't conform
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[01:17:55] <Tom_itx> i want an app that will send a wifi message to a LED billboard so i can send a message on the fily
[01:17:59] <Tom_itx> fly*
[01:19:17] <Tom_itx> think of the possibilities that could open up
[01:21:56] <CaptHindsight> billboard along the highway or similar?
[01:22:03] <Tom_itx> yes
[01:22:15] <CaptHindsight> very handy
[01:22:53] <CaptHindsight> or one that mutes the sound on the car stereo next to you in traffic
[01:23:13] <Tom_itx> then kills it's ignition
[01:28:38] <jdh> s/ignition/driver/
[01:29:23] <Tom_itx> hah!
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[01:36:10] <Valen> I think those are called EMP guns ;-P
[01:36:29] <Valen> I have always wanted to strap a tesla coil to the roof of a car and drive down the highway
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[01:48:43] <Jymmm> Valen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd2wBLgONB8
[01:49:28] <Jymmm> better https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUOuu34TqF8
[01:50:11] <Jymmm> Valen: MASSIVELY LOUD, just radiates thru the whole store
[01:51:51] <malcom2073> Not a microphone in the world that will do tesla coils justice
[01:52:30] <Jymmm> I like how they have a neon sign just sitting in there not conected to anything =)
[01:57:22] <Valen> guy next door keeps complaining of ADSL line dropping out and nobody can work out why? ;-P
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[01:57:57] <Jymmm> oh it's SERIOUSLY grounded with faraday cage
[01:58:51] <Jymmm> I dont think I've ever seen 1" ground cables before
[02:00:43] <Tom_itx> maybe the lawyers insisted
[02:08:29] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT5EJYY_6HQ short range emp
[02:09:56] <CaptHindsight> only available to mil/law?
[02:11:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ibssigma.com/en/products/eureka-aerospace-high-power-electromagnetic-system-hpems-immobilizer Request a Quote
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[02:11:59] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ibssigma.com/images/products/eureka-aerospace-high-power-electromagnetic-system-hpems-immobilizer/eureka-aerospace-hpems-immobilizer.jpg it looked smaller in the video :)
[02:13:49] <malcom2073> Heh, I remember seeing that on the science channel
[02:16:48] <zeeshan> pcw_home: you around?
[02:17:06] * zeeshan needs your expertise
[02:17:36] <pcw_home> Yeah
[02:18:27] <zeeshan> i need help with an algorithm
[02:18:32] <zeeshan> i think you know :)
[02:20:02] <pcw_home> Algol Rhythm
[02:20:03] <pcw_home> Algol Music
[02:20:05] <pcw_home> Algol My girl
[02:20:06] <pcw_home> Who could ask for anything more?
[02:20:15] <zeeshan> haha
[02:20:20] <zeeshan> dude so i have all this stuff interfaced
[02:20:23] <zeeshan> 2 solenoids that let air in and out
[02:20:50] <zeeshan> and temperature set point ability for environmental chamber and feedback from chamber for process value (current temp)
[02:21:02] <zeeshan> im trying to figure out the best way to control it in the code now
[02:21:31] <zeeshan> i was thinking of having two functions, one for pressure_control and one for temperature_control
[02:21:48] <zeeshan> so if i called pressure_control(5,0.25)
[02:21:58] <zeeshan> target is 5psi, and it'll do it .25psi/min
[02:22:32] <zeeshan> in pressure_control it'd turn each solenoid on and off to maintain that..
[02:22:44] <zeeshan> (this is where things get blurry for me)
[02:22:45] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: you any good at troubleshooting weird efi problems? between 1000 and 1500 rpm, the car misses at wide open throttle. below and above those rpms it works. replacing all ignition components made no difference, even though it feels like a secondary ignition problem.
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[02:23:10] <zeeshan> furrywolf: that is a transition point from idle to part throttle
[02:23:15] <zeeshan> it might be something to do with idle
[02:23:35] <furrywolf> except it's firing the exact same injectors, reading the exact same maf sensor, etc...
[02:23:47] <pcw_home> one soleneoid is high pressure source and one is low?
[02:24:10] <zeeshan> pcw_home: one solenoid has line pressure of 50psi on it and other side connects to chamber
[02:24:19] <zeeshan> the second solenoid connects to chamber and other port is vent to atmosphere
[02:24:31] <furrywolf> get another pid controller? :)
[02:24:32] <zeeshan> i'd like to keep a 1psi deadband between the two
[02:24:54] <zeeshan> furrywolf: honestly, im pretty useless at diagnosing cards without a wideband
[02:25:05] <zeeshan> with a wideband you'd see right away if its going too lean or too rich
[02:25:27] <zeeshan> lean likely means you got some issue with the stepper motor/servo sticking
[02:25:30] <pcw_home> right so since they are not metering valves the need some scheme like PWM for proportional control
[02:25:36] <pcw_home> they need
[02:25:39] <furrywolf> ... what stepper motor/servo? lol
[02:25:49] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you said efi! i assumed
[02:25:49] <furrywolf> it has a butterfly, and fuel injectors.
[02:25:59] <furrywolf> the butterfly has a cable connected to it.
[02:26:06] <zeeshan> pcw_home: by pwm control you mean
[02:26:18] <zeeshan> i can turn on solenoid a for 0.1 sec and shut it off for 0.5s
[02:26:23] <zeeshan> and monitor pressure
[02:26:33] <zeeshan> if pressure isn't what it is, then i do the same?
[02:27:04] <pcw_home> Hmm wonder why my wife says I have to go outside if it practice playing my goodwill trumpet
[02:27:19] <zeeshan> haha
[02:27:53] <furrywolf> lol
[02:28:04] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: what part of efi involves steppers or servos? heh
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[02:28:11] <zeeshan> the idle air control motor
[02:28:30] <zeeshan> i dont know what it is on the subaru
[02:28:35] <zeeshan> i know on the mitsu it was stepper
[02:28:38] <zeeshan> on the nissan 240 its a solenoid
[02:28:43] <pcw_home> No I meant that for proportional control your PID output (which is proportional to the error and error rate) controls a PWM signal; to the valve)
[02:28:51] <furrywolf> it's a servo of some variety, however it is utterly irrelevant when the 2.something inch throttle butterfly is wide open.
[02:29:01] <furrywolf> also, all it does is let air past the throttle butterfly.
[02:30:11] <zeeshan> pwm confuses me
[02:30:14] <pcw_home> how much air volume is in the chamber?
[02:30:20] <zeeshan> not much
[02:30:37] <zeeshan> to give you a feel for it
[02:30:45] <zeeshan> when i manually trigger the inlet solenoid on and off
[02:30:47] <zeeshan> within say 0.5s
[02:30:49] <furrywolf> it behaves just like an ignition issue... at full throttle it misses (sometimes completely - no cylinders firing at all), if you let off the throttle a bit it starts to catch, if you let off more it runs fine. same for as the rpms rise - it runs better until it runs perfectly around 1500rpm.
[02:31:01] <zeeshan> the pressure only jumps by 0.4psi
[02:31:11] <zeeshan> with a line pressure of 15psi.
[02:31:28] <zeeshan> furrywolf: that sounds a lot like going lean
[02:31:38] <furrywolf> yes, but I can't figure out WHY.
[02:31:50] <pcw_home> OK so should be pretty easy any maybe OK with just bang-bang control
[02:31:59] <pcw_home> and maybe
[02:32:27] <furrywolf> it's not a maf issue, as other combinations of throttle and rpm that would give the same airflow (like half throttle at twice the rpm) work perfectly...
[02:32:40] <furrywolf> it's not a fuel supply issue, as you use less fuel at low rpms like that...
[02:34:22] <zeeshan> with bang bang control, assuming 5psi target, 1psi/min, i would basically go "inlet solenoid on for 0.1s" - monitor pressure "is it the correct amount?") , yes-> turn it on again for 0.1s
[02:34:32] <furrywolf> and... I'm out of ideas.
[02:35:02] <furrywolf> do PID control where the output is the length of time until the next measurement
[02:35:06] <pcw_home> bang bang is just two comparators to try
[02:35:07] <pcw_home> so if pressure < setpoint -.5 PSI open inlet solenoaid
[02:35:09] <pcw_home> and if pressure > setpoint +.5 PSI open outlet solenoid
[02:35:30] <zeeshan> but the thing is i wanna control the rate too..
[02:35:31] <furrywolf> that way if you want a big pressure change, it'll run the solenoid on for a while, rather than cycling needlessly.
[02:35:45] <zeeshan> i wanna increase it only say 1psi/min
[02:35:56] <zeeshan> so i need to sample it at least once every second
[02:36:01] <pcw_home> then you need the PWM
[02:36:20] <zeeshan> pwm confuses me because in that case
[02:36:27] <zeeshan> wouldn't you be opening the inlet solenoid a LOT?
[02:36:43] <zeeshan> or would you keep the on duration say 10ms
[02:36:46] <furrywolf> you need to adjust your setpoint slowly, then let the control loop make it happen. you don't want to change the setpoint suddenly then make the control loop deal with doing it slowly.
[02:37:22] <zeeshan> can you guys guide me on what to search for
[02:37:28] <zeeshan> "PWM Control of a solenoid"?
[02:37:34] <zeeshan> would give relevant stuff?
[02:37:53] <furrywolf> say have a timer every second that changes your setpoint by changeperminute/60 until it reaches the final setpoint.
[02:38:20] <pcw_home> Yeah rate control is via the setpoint ramping
[02:38:38] <zeeshan> can't i do setpoint ramping and use bangbang control?
[02:38:59] <furrywolf> I'd make the control system a basic PID or PI system, with the output being the length of time to run the solenoid for.
[02:39:04] <furrywolf> then tune it like any other loop
[02:39:22] <pcw_home> Yes, it should work, proportinal woudl be needed for more accuarate control and to avoid overshoot
[02:39:23] <furrywolf> (target pressure - current pressure) * P would be a good start.
[02:39:33] <zeeshan> the thing is
[02:39:36] <zeeshan> if i do it very slowly
[02:39:40] <zeeshan> wouldn't i minimize overshoot?
[02:39:41] <furrywolf> where a larger P results in a longer solenoid open time before measuring again.
[02:39:42] <furrywolf> yes
[02:39:45] <pcw_home> yes
[02:39:51] <furrywolf> which is why using just P or PI might work well.
[02:40:06] <zeeshan> why is P or PI control better than bang bang
[02:40:19] <furrywolf> "bang bang" is a pretty nonspecific description.
[02:40:32] <furrywolf> "bang bang" is a poorly tuned P loop. :)
[02:40:56] <zeeshan> well to me bang bang other than the sexual context is the fact that you have a setpoint , then you check if you've met that set point
[02:41:10] <pcw_home> well for a first order system bang-bang worked well
[02:41:17] <pcw_home> works
[02:41:37] <pcw_home> it has severe overshhot for second order systems
[02:41:43] <zeeshan> the only thing is, if the setpoint is not met, do you try to add a lot more pressure
[02:42:05] <pcw_home> the valve is on until the setpoint is met
[02:42:05] <zeeshan> or do you just blindly keep adding the same amount
[02:42:19] <furrywolf> that's why you use a P loop... if you only need a little more pressure, you only run the solenoid very briefly. if you need a lot more pressure, you run the solenoid longer.
[02:42:37] <zeeshan> okay then simple proportional control will be okay then
[02:42:50] <zeeshan> as long as my general ramping of target setpoint
[02:42:51] <zeeshan> is slow
[02:42:51] <pcw_home> what pressure accuaracy do you require?
[02:42:56] <zeeshan> .5psi would be nice
[02:43:04] <furrywolf> for an accurate pressure, an I term is helpful too.
[02:43:05] <zeeshan> my pressure transducer accuracy is only 0.1psi
[02:43:22] <furrywolf> especially with a very slowly changing setpoint
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[02:43:48] <zeeshan> with I , what is physically happening
[02:43:48] <zeeshan> i get P
[02:44:23] <zeeshan> control systems are confusing :P
[02:44:24] <furrywolf> I says "it's been off the setpoint for too long". it's P with a time factor added.
[02:44:28] <zeeshan> but i think after implementing one
[02:44:31] <zeeshan> ill have a good understanding
[02:45:13] <zeeshan> well didnt you say that was P?
[02:45:16] <furrywolf> I helps with making sure you end up at the exact setpoint rather than just under/over it.
[02:45:24] <pcw_home> I suspect for .5 PSI accuracy (~.5 seconds vavle time) bang-bang would be fine
[02:45:25] <pcw_home> since your control loop will be much faster
[02:45:49] <zeeshan> if target is 0.5psi, and current value is 0.1psi
[02:46:00] <zeeshan> P would be like "listen you had to be at 0.5psi 5 seconds ago!"
[02:46:11] <zeeshan> open the valve for x amount
[02:47:00] <furrywolf> I is "you're pretty close, but you're not quite getting there, and it's been that way for a while... open the valve more"
[02:47:01] <zeeshan> when you say control loop
[02:47:09] <zeeshan> are you referring to the feedback from thje pressure transducer?
[02:47:28] <zeeshan> okay so thats why they say
[02:47:31] <pcw_home> Yes and how fast the valve reacts to the control signal
[02:47:32] <zeeshan> I works using accumulated error
[02:47:36] <furrywolf> control loop is, as its name implies, a loop. software -> valves -> transducer -> software...
[02:48:45] <zeeshan> i think i need to review m y control book again
[02:48:53] <zeeshan> i need to revise t he basic definitions
[02:48:53] <furrywolf> no, you need to write code.
[02:49:08] <furrywolf> you could have had it working by now. :P
[02:49:13] <zeeshan> lol
[02:49:57] <pcw_home> try the bang-bang first, thats PID with just P and infinite gain
[02:50:41] <zeeshan> so 0.5 target, 0.1 actual , what would be the valve opening time?
[02:50:46] <zeeshan> take that as an example
[02:51:26] <pcw_home> until pressure rises to .5 ...
[02:51:43] <zeeshan> lol
[02:52:14] <furrywolf> proportional = set_pressure - current_pressure; integral += proportional; valve_time = proportional * P + integral * I; if(valve_time > deadband || valve_time < -deadband) if(valve_time > 0) turn_on_pressure(valve_time); else turn_on_vent(-valve_time);
[02:53:59] <furrywolf> where P and I are in units of milliseconds per psi, and valve_time and deadband in milliseconds.
[02:54:11] <zeeshan> those are things to tune
[02:54:11] <zeeshan> yea?
[02:54:14] <furrywolf> yes
[02:54:40] <pcw_home> minimum solenoid on/ off time is probably 50 ms or so
[02:54:43] <furrywolf> start with I as 0 so it ignores it, and make sure your deadband is larger than the solenoid response time.
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[02:55:10] <furrywolf> now, there's a whole shitload of math involved in making PID loops theoretically perfect... skip that and play with the numbers until it works well. :P
[02:55:23] <zeeshan> thsi only captures one solenoid
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[02:55:36] <Jymmm> "tune" a solenoid ?¿
[02:56:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: ?
[02:56:23] <Jymmm> apply power, remove power. what more is there?
[02:56:24] <zeeshan> this is the inlet solenoid
[02:56:24] <furrywolf> captures a solenoid?
[02:56:35] <zeeshan> if overshoot happens
[02:56:36] <furrywolf> my pseudocode works both solenoids
[02:56:44] <zeeshan> the outlet solenoid needs to turn on only in that situation
[02:56:49] <Jymmm> ignore me
[02:57:02] <furrywolf> Jymmm: I think that was our plan already.
[02:57:13] <zeeshan> lol
[02:57:19] <Jymmm> furrywolf: did you say something?
[02:58:39] <furrywolf> zeeshan-lab: if the result is positive, turn on the pressure solenoid, if the result is negative, turn on the vent solenoid.
[02:58:47] <furrywolf> make sure the deadband applies to both.
[02:58:52] <furrywolf> I think my pseudocode works. :P
[02:58:56] <zeeshan> there has to be a deadband in pressure though
[02:59:10] <zeeshan> to stop them from fighting with each other
[02:59:14] <zeeshan> when the setpoint is close
[02:59:18] <zeeshan> to actual
[03:01:04] <furrywolf> my code has a deadpoint on time... with an I factor it may slowly cycle between very quick solenoid actuations. you could specify a separate pressure deadband to prevent this. if(proportional < deadband && proportional > -deadband) don't do anything.
[03:01:05] * zeeshan reads book
[03:01:28] <zeeshan> you understand it
[03:01:29] <zeeshan> i dont
[03:01:35] <zeeshan> i need to approach it slowly :)
[03:02:09] <furrywolf> probably make it not update the integral term would be easiest... if(proportional > pressuredeadband || proportional < -pressuredeadband) integral += proportional;
[03:02:21] <furrywolf> this way it won't slowly cycle as long as the pressure is close enough.
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[03:03:29] <furrywolf> and set pressuredeadband to maybe 0.05psi.
[03:03:50] <zeeshan> the pressure sensor
[03:03:59] <zeeshan> fluctuates by +/-0.1 psi
[03:04:04] <zeeshan> so it has to be more than that i'd think
[03:04:11] <zeeshan> around 0.3psi
[03:04:18] <zeeshan> overall resolution is only .5psi
[03:04:25] <furrywolf> ok, so .2psi then.... but if it's just noise, you could lowpass your pressure sensor.
[03:05:47] <zeeshan> thats a good idea
[03:05:51] <zeeshan> i should be filtering it
[03:06:17] <zeeshan> the problem with not using linuxcnc is
[03:06:22] <zeeshan> i dont have the fancy builtin lowpass filters!
[03:06:26] <zeeshan> and halSCOPE! :(
[03:07:24] <furrywolf> filteredpressure = filteredpressure * (1 - tweakablefactor) + currentpressure * tweakablefactor;
[03:10:13] <zeeshan> https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/fp/Definition_Simplest_Low_Pass.html
[03:10:14] <zeeshan> ah
[03:11:11] <XXCoder> woot
[03:11:20] <XXCoder> got my cnc router motor mounts milled!
[03:11:24] <XXCoder> fits well now
[03:11:27] <furrywolf> geee, doesn't that say EXACTLY WHAT I SAID? :P
[03:11:45] <zeeshan> i need to se where it comes from
[03:11:49] <zeeshan> not just you telling me it! :P
[03:12:08] <zeeshan> furrywolf: its like you asking me
[03:12:11] <zeeshan> how much will this beam deflect
[03:12:12] <furrywolf> hrmm, actually, no, that doesn't. they're using an array and averaging over the array.
[03:12:13] <zeeshan> and i tell you
[03:12:23] <zeeshan> y= Lx^4/IE
[03:12:34] <zeeshan> :P
[03:12:59] <furrywolf> a trivial running filter like I gave is much simpler
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[03:13:15] <furrywolf> for your situation where you're doing something repeatedly over time
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[03:13:57] <furrywolf> also, I removed the s from https, and it fucking redirected me back to https!
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[03:14:59] <SpeedEvil> http://www.vox.com/2015/6/28/8857415/cnn-isis-dildo-gay-pride-flag - heh
[03:16:36] <furrywolf> that page isn't loading properly.
[03:16:42] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: heh
[03:16:51] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: It's quite picture heavy
[03:16:53] <cradek> that's amazing
[03:17:01] <XXCoder> cnn and certain faux news is worth crap
[03:17:15] <furrywolf> AND it has a fucking bar across the top that breaks scrolling
[03:17:22] * furrywolf never visits vox.com again
[03:17:34] <XXCoder> no bar here
[03:17:38] <XXCoder> but same time I use noscript
[03:17:42] <SpeedEvil> Nor here
[03:17:43] <SpeedEvil> I don't
[03:19:04] <furrywolf> I have a 3/4" tall white bar saying Vox on it.
[03:19:14] <zeeshan> whats a QUICK way to upload 1 simple file from terminal
[03:19:15] <furrywolf> slightly tansparent, maybe 85% opacity
[03:19:20] <zeeshan> using ssh
[03:19:24] <furrywolf> upload to what?
[03:19:29] <zeeshan> to my comp
[03:19:32] <zeeshan> i wanna throw it in matlab
[03:19:33] <zeeshan> see the graph
[03:19:39] <zeeshan> i logged the voltage
[03:19:43] <furrywolf> scp furryporn.jpg whatever:yiff/
[03:20:13] <furrywolf> s/whatever/wherever
[03:20:22] <zeeshan> hopefully this works over a tunnel
[03:20:33] <XXCoder> yiff yiff
[03:20:35] <XXCoder> :P
[03:20:42] <furrywolf> don't have spaces or other special characters in the file or path name. scp's handling of them is broken as fuck.
[03:21:50] * furrywolf gives up on loading that page
[03:21:54] <zeeshan> wtf
[03:21:59] <zeeshan> asking me my password!
[03:22:36] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: thanks for article, definitely funny
[03:22:40] <XXCoder> cnn what a joke.
[03:23:10] <XXCoder> thats what happens when news bends over for certain people. they get fucked!
[03:27:09] <furrywolf> it's cnn... sex toys are probably just as evil as arabs to them.
[03:27:27] <furrywolf> keep in mind alabama still has a ban on sex toys because they're so evil.
[03:28:27] <XXCoder> isis flag + dilios and plugs = double evil!!!
[03:29:06] <XXCoder> its about fake isis flag at gay pride, it looks kinda same but had dilios plugs son on making words
[03:29:16] <XXCoder> nobody was fooled
[03:29:21] <XXCoder> that is except cnn
[03:29:25] <furrywolf> yes. I googled and found another article on a functional website about it.
[03:29:55] <Jymmm> georgia too
[03:30:10] <Jymmm> you can not get a Sears catalog in GAbecuae they sell bras
[03:30:23] <Jymmm> and thats porngraphic
[03:30:24] <furrywolf> and, amazingly, I don't own most of those toys. :P
[03:30:34] <Jymmm> ...yet
[03:31:55] <furrywolf> nah, most of them I think are either fictional or aimed at gay men...
[03:32:30] <Jymmm> fictional toys, and non fictional price tags
[03:32:55] <furrywolf> yep. toys are very expensive. :(
[03:33:17] <XXCoder> lathe
[03:33:24] <Jymmm> just plastidip your 220v jackhammer
[03:33:37] <furrywolf> good ones, at least.
[03:33:57] <Jymmm> keep dipping till desired diamteter
[03:34:14] <XXCoder> 3d printer :P
[03:34:27] <Jymmm> so it can delaminate?
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[03:34:51] <furrywolf> we've had the 3d-printing-not-suitable-for-sex-toys discussion before.
[03:35:52] <Jymmm> hawt damn! Found a HDPE fabrication guide!
[03:39:52] <XXCoder> lol
[03:41:05] <Jymmm> XXCoder: ?
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[03:41:43] <XXCoder> that was to fur jy
[03:42:33] <Jymmm> XXCoder: if you know the temps for welding hdpe, please let me know
[03:42:45] <furrywolf> "until it melts"
[03:43:08] <XXCoder> I do know it. exactly the melting temp of hdpe. ;)
[03:43:13] <Jymmm> furrywolf: BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ wrong answer, but thanks for playing!
[03:43:24] <Jymmm> XXCoder: and for bending?
[03:43:33] <Jymmm> and vacum forming?
[03:43:35] <XXCoder> less but not that far less
[03:43:46] <XXCoder> nice generic nonanswer answer lol
[03:44:16] <Jymmm> XXCoder: it jumps from 260f to 750 depending
[03:45:56] <Jymmm> Hey, that's an idea.... collect all the giant recycling bins and turn them into swamp coolers =)
[03:46:49] * Jymmm looks up "temp to melt off "City of _________" embossed printing"
[03:47:52] <Jymmm> imported from beverley hills
[03:48:01] <zeeshan> furrywolf: still there?
[03:48:03] <zeeshan> Lol
[03:48:05] <furrywolf> homeless people here steal them to sleep in
[03:48:13] <zeeshan> remember we were talking about noise? ;-)
[03:48:27] <furrywolf> your sensors or jymmm?
[03:49:22] <zeeshan> mine
[03:49:24] <zeeshan> i just plotted out the log
[03:49:29] <zeeshan> (wow plots REALLY do help)
[03:49:30] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/iRKRjEy.png
[03:49:31] <XXCoder> Jymmm: lol
[03:49:39] <XXCoder> it will go great till caught
[03:50:10] <zeeshan> sure as hell looks like noise to me!
[03:50:19] <furrywolf> yep
[03:51:29] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I got you a present... http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GP2ZDZO
[03:51:30] <zeeshan> the filter code you posted
[03:51:34] <zeeshan> what type of filter is that?
[03:51:48] <furrywolf> don't remember the name
[03:53:05] <zeeshan> im just gonna use an averaging filter
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[03:54:32] <os1r1s> Does anyone know if the bbb based linuxcnc variants (machinekit) support usb/ethernet mesa cards?
[03:55:41] <pcw_home> Not sure (USB is a non starter though)
[03:55:58] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Why?
[03:56:13] <pcw_home> non real time
[03:56:37] <os1r1s> pcw_home: So the 7i43h won't work with linuxcnc?
[03:57:09] <pcw_home> nope (well not for motion anyway)
[03:57:43] <os1r1s> pcw_home: Gotcha. Thanks for that catch :)
[04:12:49] <XXCoder> this guy is idiot http://www.newscaststudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/peacock.png
[04:14:11] <XXCoder> http://www.newscaststudio.com/2015/06/27/view-mistakes-nbc-peacock-for-gay-pride-avatar/
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[04:25:56] <os1r1s> pcw_home: What is "uspace" realtime?
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[04:43:27] <alex4nder> XXCoder: that's hilarious
[04:43:48] <alex4nder> os1r1s: linuxcnc will use standard POSIX APIs for "realtime" support
[04:43:55] <alex4nder> all in user-space
[04:44:02] <XXCoder> alex indeed
[04:44:25] <os1r1s> alex4nder: Ok. So the functionality is the same in the end. I would not expect some sort of degradation
[04:45:20] <Jymmm> battlebits
[04:46:02] <Jymmm> battlebots
[04:46:43] <alex4nder> os1r1s: it's not the same, it's pretty damn good
[04:50:34] <os1r1s> alex4nder: Have you used a mesa 7i80 by chance?
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[05:17:20] <zeeshan> man if i could somehow interface this c# library w/ linuxcnc
[05:17:31] <zeeshan> life would be easier
[05:47:59] <zeeshan> can someone please tell me the algorithm behind the lowpass filter component
[05:48:03] <zeeshan> theres gotta be a name to it
[05:48:14] <zeeshan> and why 0.01 works so well :p
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[06:11:13] <archivist> there are many filter topologies
[06:11:39] <MrSunshine> gah i hate people who want to optimize stuff ... just makes my life harder .. so i got this job where he wanted sides for a speaker box .. they are 800mm high .. i want a piece that is 820mm+ so that i can cut around it .but the cheapstake wants to cut them 800 so that he doesnt lose any material :P
[06:12:25] <MrSunshine> in this case it can be ok .. as i just have to cut the sides to angle and cut out the holes etc but .. =)
[06:12:42] <archivist> use a thick glue to fill the gaps due to tolerances :)
[06:13:35] <zeeshan> archivist: but i am asking about a specific one :(
[06:13:54] <archivist> impossible question error
[06:14:23] <zeeshan> i am noticing some trends about the lpf in linuxcnc
[06:14:40] <zeeshan> i am using the code for my filtered needs
[06:14:42] <archivist> specially as it is hidden inside a crap library
[06:14:47] <zeeshan> and i noticed when you make gain too low..
[06:15:01] <zeeshan> the response time of the filtered signal to get to the actual value is actually slow
[06:15:20] <zeeshan> if the gain is too high, then the filetered signal is still noisy
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[06:17:00] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/fXnQ2NQ.png
[06:17:03] <zeeshan> gain set to 0.05
[06:17:28] <archivist> one goes to higher order filters to get away from basic response
[06:19:04] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/7R9pWwO.png
[06:19:07] <zeeshan> gain 0.01
[06:19:26] <zeeshan> 2 seconds to get to actual vaslue with gain of 0.05
[06:19:40] <zeeshan> and 10-15 s with g=0.01
[06:20:38] <archivist> I think gain is the wrong word, it is averaging for a longer period
[06:23:24] <zeeshan> i bet there is a filter
[06:23:34] <zeeshan> that can specifically filter noise below 0.1 hz
[06:23:37] <zeeshan> cause that's what FFT shows me.
[06:23:43] <zeeshan> the noise is below a certain frequency
[06:24:23] <archivist> 1/f noise
[06:24:35] <zeeshan> ??
[06:24:59] <archivist> it rises as frequency drops
[06:25:21] <zeeshan> does that have a name
[06:25:29] <archivist> you may get away with a bandpass filter
[06:26:33] <archivist> also known as flicker noise, a problem of resistors and is from a thermal source
[06:26:55] <archivist> show the fft
[06:27:13] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/3STiPy4.png
[06:28:03] <zeeshan> it approaches max amplitude below 0.2 hz
[06:28:04] <archivist> high pass to get rid of that
[06:28:05] <zeeshan> it looks like
[06:29:52] <archivist> if you want response inside 1 sec you are in the noisy region
[06:30:24] <zeeshan> what do you mean inside 1 sec
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[06:31:45] <archivist> you may need to implement a high order filter eg https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Elliptic_filter
[06:35:20] <archivist> but... does the pressure actually fluctuate like that, fix the problem at source
[06:35:48] <zeeshan> no
[06:35:50] <zeeshan> its electrical noise
[06:36:03] <zeeshan> or like youre saying
[06:36:09] <zeeshan> resistors heating up shrug lol
[06:36:37] <Jymmm> toss a cap across the leads?
[06:36:58] <zeeshan> lioke 100pF?
[06:37:13] <Jymmm> sure
[06:37:30] <archivist> 100uf
[06:38:00] <archivist> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_noise
[06:38:39] <archivist> and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burst_noise
[06:39:15] <archivist> when I was a lad it was all lumped together
[06:39:22] <archivist> with 1/f
[06:40:02] <archivist> one of those situations where I discard wp
[06:40:19] <zeeshan> wp?
[06:40:42] <archivist> wikipedia
[06:41:28] <archivist> too many cooks syndrome making a dogs dinner of theory
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[06:46:24] <archivist> you want to block the low frequencies, that is done in a high pass filter not a low pass
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[06:46:54] * zeeshan is lookling for a simple algorithm for high pass filter
[06:47:09] <Deejay> moin
[06:50:41] <archivist> zeeshan, why do you want a faster response anyway
[06:50:51] <zeeshan> just wanna get rid of the noise :P
[06:53:02] <archivist> slow response is a good way
[06:53:17] <Jymmm> snap on a ferret or weasel
[06:54:10] <Jymmm> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-pass_filter
[06:56:24] <Jymmm> zeeshan: highpass is ust an RC circuit
[06:56:28] <Jymmm> just*
[06:56:38] <zeeshan> doing it in software :)
[06:56:46] <Jymmm> pfff, wuss
[06:57:02] <archivist> or you just average for longer
[06:57:15] <zeeshan> yea im just averaging a bit longer
[06:57:19] <zeeshan> and it seems to be a lot happier now
[06:57:28] <zeeshan> something i can live with :)
[06:57:33] <Jymmm> your just masking it is all
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[06:59:47] <Jymmm> zeeshan: did you twist the leads from your sensor together?
[07:00:30] <Jymmm> use a snap on ferrite
[07:00:33] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/1bFmi9O.png
[07:00:35] <zeeshan> much better
[07:00:54] <zeeshan> no more retarded .6psi spikes
[07:01:01] <zeeshan> its all around 0.1
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[12:16:42] <Jymmm> Could PEX be used for airline/inert gas system? Water pressure rating 79PSI@200F, 100PSI@180F, 160PSI@73F
[12:18:28] <_methods> i don't know if it suffers from teh same problems as pvc for air use
[12:18:37] <Jymmm> which is?
[12:18:42] <_methods> exploding
[12:19:02] <_methods> the movement of air through the pvc pipes causes them to break down or something
[12:20:11] <Jymmm> I do know if you use white PVC, it will shatter if you smack it with a hammer. But if you use grey (non-conductive conduit), smack if with a hammer a hundred times and it just squishes.
[12:21:02] <Jymmm> both being SCH40
[12:21:25] <_methods> well you can google pvc for air lines and hear all the horror stories
[12:21:34] <_methods> hell they did it at my last shop
[12:21:38] <_methods> worked fine for about 5 years
[12:21:48] <_methods> then pipes started exploding all over the place
[12:22:05] <_methods> i got many good chucklez out of that
[12:22:06] <Jymmm> heavy usage?
[12:22:15] <_methods> yeah large shop
[12:22:20] <_methods> with about 30+ cnc machines
[12:22:24] <Jymmm> what PSI?
[12:22:37] <_methods> 125 or so i guess
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[12:22:53] <Jymmm> ouch, PVC is only rated to 120PSI anyway =)
[12:22:57] <_methods> over time the air moving through the pvc breaks the pipe down
[12:23:20] <_methods> all i can say is do some research
[12:23:27] <_methods> if it's a small run the screw it
[12:23:29] <_methods> go for it
[12:23:38] <Jymmm> I saw the new stuff they have now, it's aluinum tubing with inner and outter HDPE coatings.
[12:23:55] <_methods> yeah how much is that
[12:24:00] <Jymmm> not coatings, but tubing inside tubing
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[12:24:40] <Jymmm> 1/2"@100ft $193
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[12:24:49] <Jymmm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-Gmxi9N13Y
[12:24:51] <_methods> ouch
[12:25:12] <Tom_itx> use SS pipe for all your airline needs :)
[12:25:54] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Would you like to use paypal to fund this project, or just send cash?
[12:25:58] <Tom_itx> compressed air will likely contain a bit of oil mist and that is probably what breaks down the plastic
[12:26:13] <Tom_itx> i used black pipe on mine
[12:26:39] <Tom_itx> 175 psi
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[12:27:10] <Jymmm> It's actually nitrogen I want to plumb into the house for low pressure (<50PSI) useage
[12:27:29] * jthornton is happily backing up from 0.90
[12:27:33] <Tom_itx> grow house?
[12:27:49] <Tom_itx> jthornton, got it goin ehh?
[12:27:50] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Alternative to the $5 cans of air
[12:28:03] <jthornton> yea finally fingered it out
[12:28:24] <MrFluffy> I used pex about 5 years ago... should I be worried?
[12:28:36] <Jymmm> MrFluffy: for?
[12:29:07] <jthornton> http://www.mcmaster.com/#about-plastic-tubing/=xu0stg
[12:30:01] <_methods> that duratec stuff is nice
[12:30:01] * jthornton goes for a ride in the woods
[12:30:01] <Tom_itx> take your pump
[12:30:01] <Jymmm> _methods: this was kinda nice too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM1FtJXQfvQ
[12:30:01] <Tom_itx> :)
[12:30:20] <Jymmm> _methods: But the whole 10ft long pipes wasn't
[12:31:23] <_methods> MrFluffy: it may work fine i honestly don't know
[12:31:50] <_methods> but i do know for a fact the pvc will explode and i've seen it first hand
[12:32:05] <_methods> was one of the most wonderful "i told you so" experiences of my life
[12:32:24] <Jymmm> lol
[12:32:40] <Jymmm> I wonder if that duratex is direct burrial
[12:34:54] <_methods> we always just use stainless tubing or black iron here
[12:35:16] <Jymmm> Eh, I guess not a big big deal. Just lay 2" conduit and run it and LV cabling at the same time.
[12:35:56] <_methods> where i'm at now they used 3" black iron for the main distribution lines
[12:36:03] <_methods> it's basically a giant reservoir
[12:36:08] <Jymmm> lol
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[12:39:09] <Jymmm> 2"PVC conduit is $6.27 a 10ft stick, not too bad.
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[12:40:54] <Jymmm> But jump to 3", and it's still cheaper to run two 2" lines
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[12:42:09] <Jymmm> And if I'm the bastard than has to dig the trench, there might be 4x 2" lines, just because!
[12:47:06] <MrFluffy> Jymmm, airline system for my shop... not pvc, pex the reinforced stuff
[12:47:21] <MrFluffy> pex splits with excess pressure
[12:47:32] <Jymmm> MrFluffy: The O2 barrier stuff?
[12:48:06] <MrFluffy> not sure, it was just left over from a underfloor heating install
[12:48:33] <MrFluffy> it seems you end up with the spare odd 200m or so on average per house kit...
[12:48:42] <Jymmm> MrFluffy: Yeah, ok, that is O2 barrier. But not sure if it's Pex-A or Pex-B
[12:50:50] <MrFluffy> it was free, even if it splits tomorrow I've had my moneys worth, but the fittings look like the fancy air system ones in the youtube linked
[12:50:59] <MrFluffy> I've not had a issue with leaks etc
[12:51:36] <Jymmm> MrFluffy: Ah here we go https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUGi76kEDV4
[12:51:59] <Jymmm> PEX-AL-PEX from home depot even
[12:52:33] <_methods> yeah that is the "correct" pex for air
[12:52:37] <Jymmm> 125PSI@180F
[12:52:51] <_methods> but i think even normal pex will be fine for a compressed air system
[12:53:03] <_methods> think being keyword
[12:53:16] <Jymmm> _methods: Well, no aluminum tubing in it
[12:53:31] <_methods> http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43219
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[12:53:52] <_methods> the post about the pex distributors using it for their air lines
[12:54:01] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/SharkBite-3-4-in-x-100-ft-Oxygen-Barrier-Radiant-Heating-PEX-Pipe-U870O100/202033002
[12:54:06] <carper> not been doing much due to ill health so not been keeping up to date with the development of linuxcnc. last build i run was 2.6 dev on ubuntu 10.4 just installed wheezy with 2.8 just to have a play with before i install it onto my lathe running a mesa 5i20 and got a conversion to do on a easimill using a 5i22 with 1.5 gate. (cards and daughter cards were ordered before i was taken ill)
[12:55:15] <Jymmm> _methods: from that post " Regular pex, isn't rated for air. Pex-al-pex is. "
[12:55:20] <_methods> yeah
[12:55:33] <_methods> that's why i said pex-al-pex is the "correct" choice
[12:55:44] <_methods> but that post was saying they used regular pex
[12:55:50] <_methods> and had no problems
[12:56:07] <Jymmm> _methods: But $75 for 100ft of 3/4" really isn't that bad at all. Could use it to plumb the garage
[12:56:16] <_methods> yeah
[12:56:38] <_methods> my garage is so small i'll probably just use regular air line
[12:57:21] <_methods> i might just do black iron though
[12:57:31] <_methods> look more bad ass than hose lol
[12:57:48] <Jymmm> this sounds much simpler and less fittings
[12:59:38] <Jymmm> LOL 300ft = $214, 500ft = $225
[12:59:48] <_methods> wow
[12:59:57] <_methods> so i'm guessing you're getting 300ft
[13:00:00] <_methods> hahahah
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[13:01:55] <carper> ive used 2" plastic water pipe water pipe with 3/4" Tee offs been running it like that for 3yrs and its great plus the 2" acts as part of the tank
[13:02:18] <Jymmm> Shit, sell the excess on CL for that matter, get a whole system for free
[13:06:00] <Jymmm> _methods: you think 1/2" would be good enough?
[13:06:06] <_methods> for?
[13:06:12] <_methods> low pressure inert
[13:06:14] <Jymmm> air/nitrogen
[13:06:17] <_methods> i would think so
[13:06:23] <_methods> what kind of cfm?
[13:06:51] <Jymmm> <50
[13:07:15] <_methods> is that psi?
[13:07:21] <_methods> that's a lot of cfm
[13:07:21] <Jymmm> CFM
[13:07:40] <Jymmm> Yep, fire supression
[13:07:47] <_methods> i think you need 1" lines
[13:07:54] <_methods> for a 25 foot run
[13:08:05] <_methods> actually up to 300 feet
[13:08:09] <_methods> 1" should work
[13:08:44] <Jymmm> Hell the regulator outlet aint that big
[13:09:24] <_methods> i don't know what to tell you
[13:09:30] <_methods> i'd do the calculations for sure
[13:09:40] <_methods> especially on something as critical as fire suppression
[13:09:41] <Jymmm> 1/2"@300ft = $110
[13:10:11] <_methods> 50cfm is pretty massive
[13:10:32] <Jymmm> that would be MAX CFM
[13:11:51] <Jymmm> the chamber is only 12CF, just need to flood it for 30 seconds minimum
[13:12:33] <_methods> well i guess you could just test it out using smaller pipe
[13:13:02] <Jymmm> I *think* the sprinkler heads are 1/2"
[13:14:45] <Jymmm> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPOzXteXD_s
[13:15:37] <_methods> watching
[13:16:25] <_methods> i thought you were pushing gas?
[13:16:56] <Jymmm> I am, but they mention flow factor of a sprinkler.
[13:17:36] <Jymmm> I talked to a fire system installation company and they said the heads CAN be used for gas (like halon, etc)
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[13:18:13] <_methods> well i'm no guru on fluid/gas dynamics
[13:18:50] <_methods> you really need to figure out exactly what cfm you need to push out
[13:18:52] <Jymmm> Well 35gpm = 133lpm
[13:18:55] <_methods> and that will determine your pipe size
[13:19:08] <tjtr33> jthornton, if you want good flexible stuff go Festo http://www.festo.com/cms/en-us_us/2786.htm. I use inside cable chains. it Just works.
[13:19:14] <Jymmm> which is what my flow regulator is rated in (LPM)
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[13:19:53] <Jymmm> _methods: I di realize liquid != gas, but just a rought guestimate is all
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[13:20:22] <_methods> yeah i'm not saying that you don't
[13:20:32] <Jymmm> _methods: and 133 LPM is a fuckton =)
[13:20:46] <_methods> yeah
[13:21:16] <Jymmm> _methods: Hell, I might as just build a 4ft cement wall and a drop hammer on the the neck of the tank
[13:21:41] <Jymmm> fire burns string, drops hammer, no more fire ;)
[13:22:25] <_methods> hahahahah
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[13:22:45] <_methods> go all wiley coyote on that
[13:22:45] <Jymmm> and by 4ft, I meant THICK, not long
[13:23:36] <Jymmm> Just to hold that torpedo stationary as it's ejecting out at 2000PSI
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[13:24:50] <Jymmm> _methods: "We don't need to stinkin calculations!"
[13:26:05] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8OvFiEPk3c
[13:26:09] <_methods> that's what those guys said too
[13:27:07] <_methods> heheh
[13:27:11] <_methods> FU math
[13:32:29] <Jymmm> _methods: I liked that the sinkhole fit the truck perfectly =)
[13:32:36] <_methods> hehe
[13:32:52] <_methods> i should have found a better video
[13:32:58] <_methods> i just grabbed taht real quick lol
[13:33:55] <dirty_d> great success https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Omvz1Qe8gFo
[13:38:18] <_methods> http://makezine.com/projects/make-39/wood-fired-barrel-oven/
[13:38:21] <_methods> wow read those comments
[13:38:56] <_methods> dirty_d: what'd you use for a bit?
[13:39:38] -!- osteope has quit []
[13:39:50] <dirty_d> one of those flat carbide tipped ones that looks like the profile of a spitzer bullet
[13:39:53] <Jymmm> mutagenic
[13:39:56] <_methods> hahah
[13:40:02] <_methods> teratogenic too
[13:40:22] <dirty_d> people are so god damn paranoid
[13:40:25] <dirty_d> wood smoke, raelly?
[13:40:39] <_methods> i really just need to move to russia
[13:40:39] <Jymmm> not paranoid, just dumbasses
[13:41:12] <_methods> where i can burn tires and kill animals like the 80's
[13:41:28] <_methods> hunt gay people
[13:41:46] <CaptHindsight> the 80's
[13:41:49] <Jymmm> _methods: Next door at the endangered spieces Bar and grill
[13:41:49] <_methods> hahah
[13:42:10] <_methods> i mean wtf you can't even bbq anymore?
[13:42:14] <Jymmm> "Taste just like Bald Eagle"
[13:42:44] <Jymmm> There actualy is a ban on balcony propane bbw grills
[13:42:49] <Jymmm> bbq
[13:43:08] <Jymmm> it's how I get propane tanks REALLY cheap =)
[13:43:13] <_methods> well i'm not a big fan of open flames in residential buildings
[13:43:22] <Jymmm> wuss
[13:43:25] <_methods> but in your own home or singular dwellings
[13:43:27] <_methods> go for it
[13:43:39] <_methods> nothing like your dumbass neighbor burning your apartment down
[13:44:10] <_methods> omg make magazine you are so sad
[13:44:14] <_methods> look at this article
[13:44:16] <_methods> http://makezine.com/projects/skill-builder-pvc-pipe/
[13:44:23] <_methods> how to cut and drill pvc lol
[13:45:12] <CaptHindsight> I stopped reading the Make and 3D news sites, too sad
[13:45:26] <Jymmm> Honestly, that's why I haven't gone to a MAker Faire yet.
[13:46:04] <_methods> yeah if you're scared of a fuckin bbq you may not make it in the real world of manufacturing
[13:46:07] <CaptHindsight> depressing and needs a shower was my impression
[13:46:33] <Jymmm> ...with teo gallons of gasoline!
[13:46:39] <Jymmm> two*
[13:47:25] <_methods> http://www.neatorama.com/2015/06/27/Python-Realized-That-Eating-a-Whole-Porcupine-Is-Actually-a-Very-Very-Bad-Idea/
[13:47:30] <_methods> hahah
[13:50:27] <CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2015-06-robot-hadrian-bricks-house-days.html
[13:51:06] <CaptHindsight> can lay 1000 bricks per hour.
[13:52:01] <dirty_d> how to cut and drill PVC, step 1: cut and drill PVC
[13:52:22] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: Is the same true for wood?
[13:52:35] <dirty_d> youre god damned right it is
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[13:52:51] <_methods> wow 1000 bricks/hour
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[13:53:19] <CaptHindsight> I wonder if sheet metal could be processed in a similar fashion, this cutting and drilling you speak of
[13:53:29] <_methods> hehe
[13:54:25] <dirty_d> thats a little trickier
[13:54:53] <dirty_d> i hate drilling sheet metal
[13:55:19] <dirty_d> those step drills work sort of ok though
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[13:55:49] <CaptHindsight> "are you still trying to hammer and gnaw your way through sheet metal, have we got a new set of tools for you!"
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[13:56:23] <shaun413> hello
[13:56:29] <shaun413> anyone use meshcam?
[13:56:35] <dirty_d> hell to the no
[13:56:41] <shaun413> why?
[13:56:49] <shaun413> what do you use?
[13:57:02] <_methods> if you make clean models you don't need stupid stuff liek that
[13:57:15] <dirty_d> because it represents shapes as meshes instead of their mathematical size and shape etc
[13:57:24] <_methods> but you're probably just using someone elses trash
[13:57:26] <shaun413> what do you use?
[13:57:42] <dirty_d> its good for like 3D stuff where exact dimensions arent critical
[13:57:46] <shaun413> no im using it for my own designs, but Im new to this
[13:58:21] <CaptHindsight> shaun413: what are you using to create your models?
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[13:58:34] <shaun413> solidworks
[13:58:36] <dirty_d> there isn't anything free that's really that good
[13:58:56] <dirty_d> fusion360 has HSMExpress for cam, thats good
[13:59:01] <dirty_d> but the cad side sucks
[13:59:21] <shaun413> i dont want them calling me to verify info
[13:59:26] <shaun413> creepy
[13:59:38] <dirty_d> call you?
[13:59:50] <shaun413> yeah they say they will call you to audit info
[13:59:56] <dirty_d> who?
[14:00:05] <shaun413> hsmexpress
[14:00:11] <dirty_d> oh
[14:00:17] <dirty_d> fake number?
[14:00:32] <shaun413> they will take away your licence
[14:00:32] <CaptHindsight> do you ask them for verification when they call?
[14:00:39] <shaun413> no lol?
[14:00:46] <dirty_d> technically you could use solidworks and HSMWorks
[14:00:53] <_methods> i've never needed meshworks for any model i made in solidworks
[14:00:57] <dirty_d> for free
[14:01:08] <shaun413> how?
[14:01:18] <dirty_d> http://i.imgur.com/XiziHDl.png
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[14:01:32] <shaun413> well my solidworks is real
[14:01:41] <dirty_d> oh nice
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[14:03:46] <shaun413> ill just try hsmworks
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[14:03:52] <shaun413> i dont need to answer the phone lol
[14:03:57] <dirty_d> nope
[14:04:15] <shaun413> problem is, I dont have a darn sd card...
[14:04:20] <shaun413> i mean usb drive
[14:04:25] <dirty_d> for what?
[14:04:30] <shaun413> i guess ill have to transfer gcode on my phone lol
[14:04:41] <shaun413> to get to code over to the cnc pc
[14:04:58] <dirty_d> ahh, yea im using a flash drive too
[14:05:05] <shaun413> yeah forgot to bring one lol
[14:05:25] <dirty_d> if it were up to me id have my cnc machine in my living room
[14:05:31] <shaun413> ?
[14:05:39] <_methods> the wife would love that
[14:05:40] <_methods> lol
[14:05:44] <dirty_d> yea, lol
[14:06:04] <_methods> xmas early baby, i'm moving the mill into the living room
[14:06:06] <shaun413> ill brb
[14:06:32] <MrFluffy> I have mine on the local network with ethernet cable out to the shop
[14:06:39] <MrFluffy> and a webcam, for remote operation :)
[14:06:58] <dirty_d> actually id rather just have a lair
[14:07:05] <MrFluffy> no swarf in shoes or cat, can pretend to be busy at work in office while playing with mill remote
[14:07:23] <shaun413> nevermind
[14:07:27] <shaun413> boss aint in yet
[14:07:32] <_Sync_> uhh wtf, apparently there are people who put CEE plugs and motor circuit breakers on AC sync servos
[14:07:56] <dirty_d> shaun413, oh this is work stuff so you can just buy HSMWorks legit?
[14:08:08] <shaun413> its free, well its kinda
[14:08:13] <shaun413> not the work copy of SW
[14:08:20] <dirty_d> it is?
[14:08:22] <shaun413> its mine
[14:08:26] <shaun413> well
[14:08:50] <shaun413> its mine from a competition team im part of
[14:08:58] <dirty_d> ahh
[14:09:13] <dirty_d> yea HSMWorks is the best ive used
[14:09:19] <shaun413> so its not really registered to me, so idk if i put down MY info
[14:09:24] <shaun413> if they will let me keep it..
[14:10:03] <shaun413> ill try it dirty_d
[14:13:07] <dirty_d> they probably wont
[14:15:22] <shaun413> ok
[14:15:28] <shaun413> probably wont what?
[14:19:18] <dirty_d> let you keep it
[14:19:19] <dirty_d> forever
[14:19:23] <shaun413> oh
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[14:24:12] <ssi> morn
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[14:25:31] <shaun413> ah seems they dont care about the SW licence dirty_d
[14:25:36] <shaun413> its just to verify YOUR info
[14:28:51] <CaptHindsight> how do you know that it's not Russian spies calling you?
[14:29:50] <shaun413> i wont answer
[14:30:35] <MrFluffy> its probably in the t&c's if you dont answer they kill the license
[14:30:49] <MrFluffy> and if they don't like the sound of your voice, they kill the license too :-)
[14:31:10] <shaun413> it is,
[14:31:11] <MrFluffy> I'm convinced this is how hexagon metrology designs their customer support model
[14:31:17] <shaun413> ill answer their email
[14:31:31] <CaptHindsight> I give out 2 phone numbers, one for Russian spies and one for others
[14:31:50] <shaun413> ah
[14:31:59] <MrFluffy> call desk crib sheet "#1, does operator like the sound of customer yes/no, if no, find way to fob off" :)
[14:31:59] <shaun413> well i dont think autodesk is a russian spy
[14:32:15] <shaun413> dude i used to work for a callcenter for product research
[14:32:17] <shaun413> pretty much true
[14:32:50] <shaun413> its like "IF PERSON doesnt fit this criteria terminate them"
[14:32:57] <CaptHindsight> how do you know? Look at all the McCarthy trials in the 1950's
[14:33:02] <shaun413> and you had to make up a lie and say, OK we will contact you soon
[14:36:03] <CaptHindsight> what does "Autodesk" want to know about you when they call?
[14:36:20] <shaun413> my name and city
[14:36:32] <shaun413> just to verfiy its the same i put in online
[14:36:32] <CaptHindsight> did you have to meet some criteria when you received the product?
[14:36:35] <shaun413> no
[14:37:19] <CaptHindsight> is this also how they get the phone number?
[14:37:40] <shaun413> probably
[14:37:46] <CaptHindsight> clever
[14:37:50] <shaun413> and emails
[14:38:28] <CaptHindsight> they trade you a software application for some of your personal information
[14:39:04] <shaun413> yup
[14:40:46] <shaun413> so whats a good thing to cut for a test
[14:41:01] <shaun413> ive already done letters, came out well
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[15:22:46] <dirty_d> hmm, i need to mill a 2.5" square into a 2.5" circle, i dont see an easy way to clamp it
[15:22:47] <dirty_d> glue?
[15:23:08] <shaun413> umm
[15:23:11] <shaun413> tape?
[15:23:13] <archivist> that wont fit
[15:23:22] <shaun413> and yeah you cant do that..
[15:23:34] <dirty_d> why?
[15:24:21] <shaun413> umm
[15:24:27] <shaun413> draw it out in cad
[15:24:31] <dirty_d> i mean i know i have no allowance on the center of the sides
[15:24:32] <shaun413> figure that out
[15:24:49] <archivist> are you forgetting a radius or diameter or a side length
[15:25:24] <dirty_d> i dont think so
[15:25:59] <dirty_d> i just need to cut the corners off so its a circle basically
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[15:26:14] <archivist> how do you expect to fit 2.5" square in to a 2.5" diameter circle
[15:26:20] <shaun413> heh
[15:26:25] <dirty_d> lol
[15:26:31] <shaun413> OK
[15:26:38] <shaun413> he doesnt want to mill it into it
[15:26:40] <dirty_d> no i meant turn the square into a circle, not the other way around
[15:26:45] <shaun413> he wants to MAKE It itno a circle
[15:26:47] <archivist> you want the opposite
[15:26:47] <shaun413> lol
[15:27:00] <shaun413> so confused lol
[15:27:05] <dirty_d> there are no holes, so i can bolt from the center
[15:27:09] <dirty_d> sorry, lol
[15:27:31] <dirty_d> maybe superglue then heat it after?
[15:27:41] <archivist> this is what vices and chucks were made for
[15:27:54] <dirty_d> there is nothing to clamp though
[15:28:26] <dirty_d> everythign will be milled away except for the circle i want left over
[15:28:55] <dirty_d> cant clamp from the top because it would get in the way
[15:29:14] <dirty_d> unless i milled one half, and moved a clamp to the opposite side
[15:29:35] <archivist> I can do that on a lathe with a revolving centre , some pressure required
[15:29:47] <dirty_d> yea
[15:30:12] <dirty_d> i only have a mill though
[15:31:05] <_methods> just mill 2 sides flat then stop against them and clap then mill off other 2 sides
[15:31:11] <archivist> 4 jaw chuck upwards
[15:31:14] <_methods> s/clap/clamp
[15:31:36] <archivist> some setting up required for 2nd op
[15:31:46] <_methods> 2 dowel pins
[15:32:03] <_methods> or a couple strap clamps
[15:32:03] <archivist> he wants no holes
[15:32:10] <_methods> stop against dowel pins
[15:32:23] <dirty_d> i actually dont care as long as the holes dont go through the top
[15:32:45] <_methods> what material?
[15:32:49] <dirty_d> so i could bolt from the bottom, but i would image superglue would be strong enough and be the fastest way
[15:32:53] <dirty_d> 6061
[15:32:56] <_methods> mill 95% of the way through then break away
[15:33:06] <archivist> glue is liable to fail
[15:34:42] <dirty_d> over the entire surface of a 2.5" circle though?
[15:34:48] <dirty_d> with light cuts on aluminum
[15:35:35] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, PopSci had a good article on Adrian, but can it do this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PB8TWMKHHMQ
[15:36:01] <archivist> an old hack like me has had stuff fall off!
[15:36:04] <dirty_d> this is like a one off thing
[15:37:01] <archivist> I did some stuff on sheet metal with double sided tape
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[15:38:41] <dirty_d> noice http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1080396-Gluing-steel-to-a-milling-fixture
[15:39:16] <archivist> aluminium does not take glue the same as steel
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[15:40:44] <dirty_d> thin 2 sided tape?
[15:41:00] <dirty_d> the thick stuff wouldnt work well would it?
[15:41:04] <dirty_d> too much give
[15:41:18] <archivist> thin, it gives too
[15:43:47] <dirty_d> someone suggested 5 min epoxy over superglue
[15:45:20] <archivist> I also had problems damaging/bending stuff at the removal stage
[15:45:50] <CaptHindsight> tjtr33: only in Mexico
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[15:47:36] <dirty_d> archivist, did you heat it?
[15:47:41] <CaptHindsight> http://phys.org/news/2015-06-message-bearing-coffee-foam-printer-mechanics.html
[15:48:10] <archivist> dirty_d, no it was carpet tape
[15:48:37] <dirty_d> oh right
[15:48:58] <archivist> dirty_d, clockmakers use shellac which can be melted on/off
[15:49:40] <dirty_d> that will dry between two plates with no air?
[15:49:41] <CaptHindsight> "The machine combines patented 3D printer mechanics with Ink-Jet printing technologies," keep head 1-5mm above coffee/foam surface and print. What a patent!
[15:50:45] <archivist> erm ink jet has been used for a long while
[15:50:55] <dirty_d> hot glue might even work
[15:51:05] <t12> theres a few glues ment specifically for this
[15:51:09] <t12> that i remember seeing on oxtoolco
[15:51:10] <dirty_d> just heat the parts melt the glu and clamp it while hot
[15:51:12] <archivist> the starch 3d printer used that
[15:51:13] <t12> but cant recall the name
[15:51:26] <dirty_d> hot glu is easy to get off too if you freeze it
[15:51:59] <archivist> somewhere I have a ball bearing made with that tech
[15:53:44] <dirty_d> t12, crystalbond?
[15:54:27] <t12> yeah i think that was one of them
[15:54:36] <t12> he compared a few in some video
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[15:58:10] <CaptHindsight> i have glues that are only adhesive at elevated temperatures and are reversible by reheating
[15:58:28] <dirty_d> hot glue?
[15:58:45] <CaptHindsight> hot melts are one
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[16:01:44] <dirty_d> https://youtu.be/IW_eXcjkM3g?t=1253
[16:03:30] <dirty_d> does he say what this stuff is? i have no sound
[16:04:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.crystalbond.com/
[16:05:22] <dirty_d> oh i see the sticker, crystalbond 509
[16:05:56] <CaptHindsight> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalic_anhydride + a glycol
[16:07:12] <shaun413> anyone use hsmexpress
[16:08:34] <dirty_d> i have
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[16:10:13] <shaun413> nevermind
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[17:04:38] <Dimroy> bonsoir a tous !
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[17:06:33] <Dimroy> Mach3 does it also works in USB or parallel port only?
[17:07:37] <jdh> #linuxcnc
[17:09:02] <ssi> lol
[17:09:27] <shaun413> woot
[17:09:31] <shaun413> cnc calibrated woop
[17:09:43] <Dimroy> ok,
[17:09:43] <Dimroy> I installed linuxcnc 2.6, but I can not enter to gmoccapy, how it's done?
[17:10:10] <shaun413> what type of bits and speeds for acryllic?
[17:10:12] <shaun413> is usally used?
[17:10:23] <spline> Hi, new to CNC and love that Linux (been using since 95) has support. Does anyone have a good link on a basic linux cnc mill that is either pre-made or could be built?
[17:11:00] <_methods> there are tons on ebay
[17:11:09] <archivist> define mill
[17:11:09] <spline> yeah, I saw a ton from china
[17:11:15] <_methods> yeah
[17:11:19] <_methods> probably a good start
[17:11:24] <_methods> they are fairly cheap
[17:11:26] <_methods> and easy to work on
[17:11:33] <archivist> I dont thing of the gantry routers as mills
[17:11:34] <shaun413> with shitty bearings
[17:11:36] <shaun413> and controllers
[17:11:39] <alex4nder> yah
[17:11:40] <shaun413> and spindles
[17:11:46] <spline> well, I'm looking to get more into fab. like a mill where I could make small parts for sculpture, even if "2d" (what a plasma cutter might do)
[17:11:48] <_methods> let you learn the ropes for minimal skin in the game
[17:12:04] <shaun413> how much are they _methods ?
[17:12:05] <_methods> figure out what you do and don't like pretty quick
[17:12:11] <_methods> learn the software tool chain
[17:12:36] <archivist> you can make a mill from scratch if you want
[17:12:51] <shaun413> how much would that cost
[17:12:58] <spline> archivist: yeah, I've googled a # of builds and love it
[17:13:08] <spline> bit new to cnc so I am not sure if that's above my pay grade
[17:13:15] <archivist> not a lot if parts are scrounged from old machines
[17:13:21] <alex4nder> spline: you're going to learn so much no matter what machine you get
[17:13:27] <spline> man I had a great link to a $2400 machine that went for $1300 on ebay
[17:13:34] <spline> alex4nder: yeah, no doubt
[17:13:50] <alex4nder> spline: but in your mind, there should be a difference between a 'router' and a 'mill'
[17:13:51] <spline> I have a welder and plasma cutter now.. kinda was hoping to either build one on the cheap or obviously find a great deal on ebay
[17:13:58] <_methods> well skill, time, and money are your limiting factors
[17:14:07] <spline> for even a small setup (where I'd only be able to mill or produce something very small)
[17:14:08] <_methods> base your decision on those 3
[17:14:24] <spline> alex4nder: when you say router, I think dremel or a dewalt router
[17:14:29] <alex4nder> spline: yah
[17:14:36] <spline> and mill.. I think of the same action just where it's controlled
[17:14:37] <alex4nder> mounted to a gantry
[17:14:40] <shaun413> how can i make a dome object say in soldiworks, and collapse it down to be folded
[17:14:40] <spline> yeah
[17:14:41] <archivist> starting from an old industrial mill and adding cnc to it is probably best bang for the buck
[17:14:41] <shaun413> out of foam
[17:14:44] <shaun413> and cnced
[17:14:56] <spline> archivist: see a ton of bridgeport, etc on craigslist, esp when shops shut down
[17:15:09] <alex4nder> spline: if you want an actual mill, I'd get a Taig.
[17:15:16] <alex4nder> or something used
[17:15:38] <ssi> is a taig really that much more rigid than a gantry router?
[17:15:43] <alex4nder> yah
[17:15:45] <archivist> depends on sizes you intend to make
[17:15:47] <alex4nder> they're good for what they are
[17:16:07] <archivist> taig is a little on the micro size
[17:16:22] <shaun413> whats the min i can use to cut alum?
[17:16:27] <alex4nder> yah, and you're not going to be doing big-boy hogging with a Taig
[17:16:45] <spline> alex4nder: hah that was what I was digging through my history to find
[17:16:52] <ssi> you can cut aluminum with anything as long as you go slow
[17:16:55] <spline> I saw a Taig Micro CNC ($2400 retail) with a few upgrades go for $1300 on ebay
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[17:17:19] <spline> and when I googled around, people had nothing but good things to say about it
[17:17:20] <alex4nder> spline: the thing with taigs is they don't cost much to fix, and they're high value
[17:17:37] <spline> this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taig-Micro-CNC-Mill-4-Axis-Long-Bed-1-HP-DC-Motor-Variable-Speed-with-Tach-/121673194938?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c54499dba
[17:17:39] <spline> $1400
[17:17:50] <alex4nder> if you crash hard, wreck your table, and need a new one, you're only out $140
[17:18:02] <alex4nder> spline: are you in the US?
[17:18:04] <spline> yeah I'd start with wood or something soft, long before I tried aluminum
[17:18:08] <spline> alex4nder: yeah, new hampshire
[17:18:22] <spline> always forget irc can be international, even if folks are speaking english
[17:18:22] <alex4nder> cool
[17:18:36] <spline> I didn't know if it was best to start with a non-cnc mill?
[17:18:58] <spline> im basically looking to produce smaller parts for metal sculpture
[17:19:05] <alex4nder> how small is small?
[17:19:13] <spline> hm picture probably works best
[17:19:15] <spline> let me find
[17:19:21] <archivist> non cnc will teach you how easy it is to break tools as is cnc
[17:20:14] <spline> haha, yeah I've seen that
[17:20:17] <spline> http://www.georgesherwood.com/storage/cache/images/000/167/Small_Gyres_copy,medium_large.1361656571.jpg <- like that
[17:20:29] <spline> the 4 .. vanes? whatever you'd label them
[17:20:38] <spline> small as in less than 12x12 like that
[17:20:46] <archivist> just need a hammer for that
[17:20:50] <spline> yeah, I figured
[17:20:50] <alex4nder> yah
[17:20:57] <spline> oxy/fuel torch + hammer + anvil
[17:21:04] <spline> but what if I wanted to mill something more precision?
[17:21:15] <spline> out of say a rectangular block of steel/aluminum
[17:21:33] <archivist> steel needs a more rigid machine
[17:21:41] <alex4nder> spline: it just comes down to: cheap, fast, precise/accurate
[17:21:48] <alex4nder> pick 2
[17:22:14] <archivist> and 12" steel block is actually reasonably sized, bridgeport
[17:22:17] <spline> yeah, understood
[17:22:27] <spline> aluminum is rather soft compared to any steel
[17:22:47] <spline> and I think of other soft metals.. copper? but each, if welding, has its own challenges. could always braze though
[17:23:19] <archivist> copper is sticky and work hardens, needs sharp tooling
[17:24:27] <spline> interesting
[17:24:47] <spline> only brazed with brass and im currently plumbing 1/2 around my garage, so I had to relearn how to sweat
[17:24:50] <spline> but yet to work much w/copper
[17:25:18] <spline> so a basic tiag would be able to do the basics like wood (soft and hard?) plastics
[17:25:18] <archivist> last copper I worked was for a tower clock fly
[17:25:20] <spline> aluminum
[17:25:32] <_methods> yeah
[17:25:35] <spline> but steel you'd generally want to have a more industrial machine?
[17:25:36] <_methods> i cut steel on my X2
[17:25:37] <alex4nder> yah, it's fine.
[17:25:42] <_methods> but you gotta take it easy
[17:25:45] <alex4nder> I've cut steel on the taig, it's just slow.
[17:25:51] <spline> welded aluminum when I've had access to a nice tig (mmm)
[17:26:00] <spline> my hobart lacks the power + spool gun hookup to do it (mig)
[17:26:02] <archivist> _methods, redone the spindle bearings?
[17:26:11] <_methods> nah mine are fine still
[17:26:14] <spline> _methods: which unit do you have?
[17:26:16] <_methods> i smoked my drive gears though
[17:26:23] <_methods> i had to do the belt mod
[17:26:28] <_methods> i have the harbor freight one
[17:26:40] <archivist> I was helping someone adjust the bearings the other day
[17:26:40] <_methods> i added the little machine shop large bed though
[17:26:54] <_methods> has way more travel than teh stock bed
[17:27:32] <_methods> those plastic gears didn't fare so well while machining steel lol
[17:27:49] <_methods> got me through cnc'n it and doing the belt mod though
[17:27:49] <spline> haha
[17:27:51] <spline> plastic gears
[17:28:02] <_methods> they will last long enough for you to convert it though
[17:28:03] <spline> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taig-CNC-Mill-/181787066387?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a535a8013 <- taig on ebay now
[17:28:09] <archivist> I make plastic gears
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[17:28:20] <spline> hah wow it needs a parallel port
[17:28:32] <spline> oh and they are strong enough to work reliably?
[17:28:35] <spline> I know plastics get better and better
[17:28:45] <alex4nder> spline: do you have any electronics experience?
[17:28:50] <alex4nder> or even complex electrical/wiring
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[17:29:04] <spline> I know how to solder.. understand the basics on it
[17:29:13] <spline> can add outlets in the panel
[17:29:35] <spline> understand the parts of electronics but another dude I know on irc, ee master, always there to help if I needed
[17:29:37] <archivist> spline only make them for light load
[17:29:48] <spline> like I've done work with the rpi<->i2c doing a temperature monitor but a lot was prefab
[17:29:49] <alex4nder> spline: so I just did a Taig build, and used a Mesa 7i76e.. and the ethernet interface is great
[17:29:58] <spline> oh that's really cool
[17:30:03] <spline> ethernet vs usb or even parallel
[17:30:11] <alex4nder> I haven't had any problems yet. *knock on wood*
[17:30:12] <spline> when I was looking @ plasma cutters, many are also parallel
[17:30:30] <spline> but the guys who build their own use http://www.candcnc.net/
[17:30:36] <spline> which is ethernet (and really cool)
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[17:31:34] <spline> well, it's why I asked about a basic system, even if im just milling plastic and basla wood
[17:31:48] <spline> kinda like "hey here's how you mill a .." doorknob or something. I understand g code
[17:31:51] <spline> or the purpose of it
[17:32:07] <spline> definitely need to learn something for cad at some point
[17:33:04] <archivist> if you have the brain for programming you can go straight to gcode and skip the cad cam part
[17:35:23] <spline> oh ha definitely not me
[17:35:44] <spline> just from owning a dremel.. it does about, everything? and I wound up getting the drill press (yeah its a joke) but
[17:35:53] <spline> like a dremel.. if you need some odd tool to do .. anything, it's great
[17:36:04] <spline> er well bad segue but my point is that I'd love to get a basic, used unit
[17:36:22] <spline> and just be able to play/explore. between forums, irc, etc it's enough to get you started
[17:36:54] <_methods> this is my x2
[17:36:56] <_methods> https://www.dropbox.com/s/l16dt0km536rafh/2015-05-23%2015.29.08.jpg?dl=0
[17:37:21] <alex4nder> nice
[17:37:27] <alex4nder> spline: just get a manual mill, and convert it then.
[17:37:31] <alex4nder> you'll learn a lot
[17:37:47] <_methods> workin on the keyboard tray
[17:37:58] <_methods> going to mount that to the other monitor arm hehe
[17:38:08] <alex4nder> cool. I'm working on something similar for my enclosure
[17:38:13] <_methods> those monitor arms are only like $18 on monoprice
[17:38:28] <_methods> way cheaper than i could make them myself
[17:39:19] <alex4nder> _methods: what kind of rapids are you getting with those big steppers?
[17:39:26] <_methods> hmm no idea lol
[17:39:29] <_methods> never measured
[17:39:40] <_methods> i don't care about rapids on a table that size
[17:40:28] <alex4nder> well, let me ask it a different way: what kind of accel and IPM do you run at high spindle speeds?
[17:40:41] <PetefromTn_> it is truly amazing to me how people can take pictures of the X2 and somehow make it look really big!! I know I saw one at a local HF and that thing is TINY LOL no offence intended or implied
[17:41:31] <_methods> yeah they are tiny
[17:41:44] <_methods> and i'd have to look at my settings to tell you alex4nder
[17:41:51] <_methods> i don't remember offhand
[17:41:54] <alex4nder> cool
[17:42:21] <PetefromTn_> looks like you got some cool mods on that one man!
[17:42:28] <_methods> i just did belt mod
[17:42:45] <PetefromTn_> I know looks good
[17:42:46] <_methods> and i made up my own stepper mounts because i used those chinese ballscrews
[17:42:55] <alex4nder> _methods: the reason I'm asking is, I'm working on supporting acceleration curves in linuxcnc
[17:43:03] <_methods> ahh
[17:43:07] <_methods> i'll check when i get home
[17:43:15] <_methods> i've honestly never tried "pushing" it
[17:43:21] <_methods> to see what i could get out of it
[17:43:25] <_methods> i'm still babying it
[17:43:27] <alex4nder> yah
[17:43:32] <alex4nder> I can get > 120 IPM on the taig.
[17:44:06] <_methods> i'm always cutting steel so i'm usually around 10ipm
[17:44:10] <alex4nder> yah
[17:44:15] <_methods> i rarely get to crank it up
[17:44:31] <_methods> i really need to add some bracing to the z column though
[17:44:40] <_methods> it definitely is not as rigid as i'd like it
[17:46:38] <Jymmm> _methods: Viagra?
[17:48:12] <_methods> hahah
[17:50:59] <_methods> if that works sign my mill up
[17:52:37] <ssi> lol
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[18:02:11] <PetefromTn_> There are numerous colum stiffening schemes online that look simple and easy to do. Especially for someone like you who has access to larger machinery.
[18:02:35] <PetefromTn_> I should add X2 milling machine column Stiffening schemes ;)
[18:05:11] <zeeshan> ssi , pcw
[18:05:13] <zeeshan> http://pastebin.com/1rsChgx8
[18:05:27] <zeeshan> or any other pid people
[18:05:33] <zeeshan> what do you think of this psuedo code
[18:05:38] <zeeshan> for controlling 2 solenoids
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[18:08:58] <zeeshan> whoops found error
[18:09:20] <zeeshan> http://pastebin.com/PHpBXdf5
[18:09:21] <zeeshan> fixed
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[18:09:57] <zeeshan> so basically if correction is positive then we need more pressure so a certain solenoid turns on
[18:10:15] <zeeshan> if correction is negative, need to remove pressure, so another solenoid gets called
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[18:14:28] <_methods> PetefromTn_: heheh
[18:14:48] <_methods> yeah i'm not sure which "scheme" i'm going to go with
[18:15:18] <_methods> probably some triangle plates bolted to the sides and back
[18:16:41] <_methods> like an angle plate
[18:17:12] <archivist> I boxed my column for added stiffness, was a lathe bed
[18:17:45] <PetefromTn_> I have seen large diameter structural steel tube and large thick steel plate across the back
[18:18:00] <_methods> yeah i might do that too
[18:18:04] <_methods> probably be easier
[18:18:05] <archivist> made a big difference, the hobbymat md65 was never designed to be a mill
[18:18:21] <_methods> hahah no most lathes arent
[18:19:24] <PetefromTn_> I would think a thick walled 6" square tube or larger surface ground on one side would be simple and effective
[18:19:47] <archivist> original lathe http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_01_19_cnc/P1190001.JPG with added stiffening http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_07_10_cnc_with_LCD_P4/IMG_0267.JPG
[18:20:23] <PetefromTn_> altho as I understand it the problem is both flex in the column itself but is more the pivot mount at the bottom
[18:21:19] <_methods> yeah that pivot at the bottom isn't really helping lol
[18:21:26] <spline> alex4nder: how hard is it to "convert" ? love the setup
[18:21:45] <PetefromTn_> About to order another Hitachi WJ200 110LF for the CNC lathe project. Price actually went down a little thankfully. Driveswarehouse has it for $885 and they actually sell it for $775 on ebay with free shipping LOL
[18:21:49] <alex4nder> spline: a taig?
[18:22:14] <spline> alex4nder: from your picture you pasted on dropbox
[18:22:24] <spline> im looking for something small. unfortunately a bit squeezed on space :\
[18:22:24] <alex4nder> spline: that was _methods' x2
[18:22:33] <spline> oh ok
[18:22:42] <spline> o blah my bad
[18:22:47] <spline> just realized it was _methods link not yours
[18:22:50] <_methods> i made all my own parts so i'm not a good reference
[18:22:58] <spline> ahh cool
[18:22:58] <_methods> but the mill is $500
[18:23:07] <_methods> and the steppers and drivers were about $300
[18:23:09] <alex4nder> spline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8PB3MLadgw <- that's my taig
[18:23:15] <_methods> the rest of it was free for me
[18:23:22] <PetefromTn_> If you are interested in one that size the 0704 is a little larger and reasonably well regarded..
[18:23:25] <archivist> I made my adapters, rest was cheap
[18:23:26] <alex4nder> spline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoB7TFStIQg <- that's running a "slow" version of the LinuxCNC plot
[18:23:31] <_methods> yes i'd go with the 0704
[18:23:35] <_methods> if i had it to do over
[18:23:55] <spline> damn nice
[18:24:14] <archivist> I have rebuilt the X, old X is now Y
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[18:24:36] <alex4nder> spline: this is my second taig.. I bought them both manual, and converted them myself.
[18:24:40] <PetefromTn_> LOL so you are MR. 88172631 then huh
[18:25:12] <alex4nder> PetefromTn_: haha, yes
[18:25:32] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[18:26:54] <PetefromTn_> should be simpler than the Cincinatti to get the VFD running on the CNC lathe. This motor does not have to spin 12k RPM :D
[18:27:16] <_methods> so that's all you have left on your lathe?
[18:27:25] <PetefromTn_> why shit no..
[18:27:35] <PetefromTn_> Just ordering components right now
[18:27:43] <PetefromTn_> worked more on painting the carcass this weekend
[18:27:52] <PetefromTn_> still got some more painting to do
[18:28:08] <PetefromTn_> Been waiting on cash to be able to afford it all..
[18:28:24] <PetefromTn_> Looking like $3500.00 total to get it going the way I want it..
[18:29:19] <_methods> not too bad
[18:29:27] <_methods> taken in chunks
[18:29:30] <PetefromTn_> no not in the grand scheme of things
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[18:29:55] <PetefromTn_> I probably have enough potential customers work waiting to pay myself back for it
[18:30:01] <PetefromTn_> but gotta ante up first
[18:30:20] <PetefromTn_> business has been slowly picking up over the last few months so that has helped
[18:30:22] <_methods> you can't use any of the existing servos and drives?
[18:30:50] <PetefromTn_> and I just sold my Bronco for a tidy profit and bought a lesser expensive vehicle for the time being
[18:31:00] <PetefromTn_> There really were no existing servos and drives
[18:31:12] <PetefromTn_> just a single motor on the X axis and it is an oddball one.
[18:31:18] <PetefromTn_> Gonna sell it here hopefully
[18:31:55] <_methods> ah
[18:32:01] <_methods> well that makes that decision easy then
[18:32:19] <PetefromTn_> yeah no choice really just bite the bullet and pay up sucker ;)
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[18:32:45] <PetefromTn_> I really prefer to use brand new components tho it worked quite well for me on the Cincinatti so far.
[18:33:06] <PetefromTn_> probably gonna have to invest in some new cabling too tho.
[18:33:29] <PetefromTn_> There is a BUNCH of wire leftover from the Cincinatti COnversion which I will use as much as possible
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[18:34:09] <PetefromTn_> but I will probably have to buy a lot of the heavier gauge cables for the VFD and drives to power. Going to try to order the new motors and drives complete with premade cables tho.
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[18:36:24] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_:Oh come on... Just take all that scrap wire, melt it down, and make your own heavy guage cables!
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[18:38:11] <PetefromTn_> yeah sorry unlike some guys I do not wish to learn every possible metalworking genre on my way to a complete CNC shop hehe
[18:38:48] <Jymmm> _methods: 1/2@500ft pex-al-pex $174 shipped free (34¢/ft)
[18:38:57] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Lazy bastard!
[18:39:26] <PetefromTn_> yeah I guess ;)
[18:39:31] <Jymmm> =)
[18:39:39] <SpeedEvil> PetefromTn_: But explosive forming is cool!
[18:39:57] <PetefromTn_> Explosive ANYTHING is cool... well maybe not diarrhea
[18:40:17] <_methods> hahahahha
[18:40:26] <Jymmm> _methods: 1/2"@300ft = $109 shipped free (36¢/ft)
[18:40:38] <_methods> not too shabby
[18:40:52] <Jymmm> _methods: Click the "FREE SHIPPING ONLY" box... http://www.pexuniverse.com/pex-al-pex-tubing-sizes
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[18:41:41] <_methods> that's really reasonable i may do my garage in that
[18:41:47] <_methods> one day
[18:42:25] <Jymmm> _methods: That site also says it's compatible with sharkbite fittings (aka home depot ones)
[18:42:55] <shaun413> sharkbites are the shit
[18:43:06] <Jymmm> _methods: FYI... NOT for potable water
[18:43:10] <Jymmm> shaun413: how so?
[18:43:14] <shaun413> they are good
[18:43:32] <Jymmm> ah, ok
[18:43:46] <Jymmm> I missed the word 'the' in there
[18:44:01] <shaun413> lol
[18:44:28] <Jymmm> I've never used them, so no clue, just know they are available locally at 9pm on a sunday
[18:45:30] <Jymmm> shaun413: did you do a replumb or repair?
[18:45:57] <shaun413> repairs
[18:46:03] <shaun413> i wouldnt use them for replumbing
[18:46:10] <shaun413> but they are great for repairs
[18:46:20] <Jymmm> why not? price?
[18:46:25] <shaun413> yeah
[18:46:41] <Jymmm> They are reusable too I read
[18:46:46] <shaun413> probably
[18:46:52] <shaun413> easy to remove with the tool as well
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[18:46:59] <Jymmm> you just need the $2 tool to remove the line
[18:47:24] <shaun413> yes
[18:47:50] <PetefromTn_> thats funny they use them for almost all the plumbing including sinks here nowadays...
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[18:48:14] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: pex or sharkbite repair fittings?
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[18:48:34] <PetefromTn_> Oh I thought you were talking pex...
[18:48:54] <PetefromTn_> sharkbites are okay for it too tho no??
[18:48:55] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Kinda, harkbite repairs fittings FOR pex
[18:49:15] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Yes, just cost more than the standard pex fittings
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[18:49:34] <PetefromTn_> I have a few joining some copper water lines to my water heater
[18:49:39] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: but they are press fit, no crimping
[18:49:44] <PetefromTn_> oh hell yeah they are not cheap
[18:50:29] <shaun413> yepo..
[18:50:42] <Jymmm> compared to $1 crimp fitting
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[18:50:50] <shaun413> like 10 bucks?
[18:50:55] <shaun413> or something iirc
[18:51:18] <Jymmm> $14 in some cases
[18:51:32] <shaun413> yeah
[18:51:46] <Jymmm> But just keep a few on hand for quick repairs, and then recrimp later for a full repair
[18:52:48] <Jymmm> It's like brass compression fitting, then later on sweat on a copper fittings
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[19:00:21] <Tom_itx> Jymmm you gettin 2 rolls of pex?
[19:00:27] <Tom_itx> color coded of course...
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[19:11:19] <robin_sz> hey Pete
[19:11:32] <robin_sz> hows the anodizing plant going?
[19:12:40] <robin_sz> oh hes gone haha
[19:14:19] <robin_sz> so, how do I upgrade a 2.6.8 to 2.7.x?
[19:14:33] <robin_sz> i tried apt-get upgrade ... nothing
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[19:15:55] <cradek> there is not yet an official 2.7 release
[19:16:33] <Tom_itx> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/getting-started/index.html#_upgrade_to_the_new_version
[19:17:26] <Tom_itx> i followed that to get from 2.6 to 2.7
[19:27:50] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Maybe... pex-al-pex for running airline (nitrogen), and maybe plumbing pex for replubing the whole place (a section at a time)
[19:28:24] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: so technically I geuss that would be red blue and orange =)
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[19:31:45] <Jymmm> So, if I aly down foam board, I can just staple the pex to it??? http://www.amazon.com/Malco-FBSN-Foamboard-Stapler/dp/B0014EES7C/
[19:31:49] <Jymmm> lay*
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[19:34:57] <fishheadsoup> pcw_home: hey, what's the difference between the -16 and -25 on the 7I80HD???
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[19:36:47] <Tom_itx> fishheadsoup, size
[19:37:50] <fishheadsoup> fpga size?
[19:38:01] <Tom_itx> xc6slx16 / 25 i think
[19:38:07] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[19:38:38] <fishheadsoup> can the -16 handle 6 servo axes?
[19:38:53] <Tom_itx> i don't see why not
[19:39:06] <Tom_itx> but i haven't tried it
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[19:39:41] <fishheadsoup> ok, thanks. not much diff in cost, so maybe i'll do the -25 for starters.
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[19:39:54] <ssi> the 5i25 is an lx9, and it can run two 7i77s for 12 servos total
[19:39:58] <ssi> so I imagine the lx16 will be fine
[19:40:19] <Tom_itx> you do need to make sure you load the right bit files if there are different fpga size for your board
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[20:04:18] <fishheadsoup> Tom_itx: yes, I understand about the bit files and all. Just need to know if it's equivalent to a 5i20 or 5i24 or so. I see in the support bit files all the usual configurations.
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[20:07:53] <Jymmm> $9.25 for a 1" lead free pex brass ball valve, seems reasonable, no? What is "Full Port"? No reduction from the 1" internally?
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[20:24:10] <fishheadsoup> PCW: thanks. ordered 2 7i80-16.
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[20:59:39] <Cromalious> sucks tobe me... think I have abroken ankle or a torn ligiment
[21:00:03] <SpeedEvil> We can rebuild him!
[21:00:11] <SpeedEvil> Can anyone cast titanium?
[21:00:19] <SpeedEvil> I've got an old door-hinge, and some piano wire.
[21:00:39] <Deejay> aluminum must be good enough in this case ;)
[21:00:53] <Cromalious> yeah hot glue didn't work
[21:02:19] <Cromalious> broke out the walker to hobble around with
[21:02:52] <JT-Shop> wow your lucky you have a walker
[21:03:23] <Deejay> gn8
[21:03:32] <Cromalious> it was my mom-n-laws
[21:03:43] <Cromalious> nite nite Deejay
[21:04:35] -!- Deejay has quit [Quit: bye]
[21:05:45] <JT-Shop> don't you wish you were born here http://listverse.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/cite-soleil.jpg
[21:06:36] <PCW> thats depressing
[21:06:53] <JT-Shop> http://listverse.com/2013/10/04/10-places-around-the-world-you-wouldnt-want-to-live/
[21:06:56] <JT-Shop> yea
[21:07:02] <Jymmm> Rather wish she wasn't
[21:07:13] <JT-Shop> makes you thankful for what you have even if it is not much
[21:07:21] <Cromalious> that wasn't a snicker bar
[21:08:13] -!- Brunetty has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[21:08:48] <Jymmm> WHOA a population density of 3,250,000 people per square mile
[21:09:09] <Cromalious> laying here listening to Glenn Woods Bold Republic yuotube radio show
[21:10:59] -!- Brunetty [Brunetty!~Home@unaffiliated/brunetty] has joined #linuxcnc
[21:11:45] <LeelooMinai> Jymmm: That's not that bad. Square mile is 2.6 million meteres squared
[21:12:12] <MrSunshine> finaly started drawing on my new cnc machine =) will be fun to see how it ends up after casting =)
[21:12:20] <LeelooMinai> So each one has almost 1 meter squared for themselves
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[21:12:23] <MrSunshine> gonna be a beast of a machine atleast =)
[21:12:27] <Jymmm> The US national avg population density is 1100 per sq mile, Teh SF Bay area is 9000 per sq mile
[21:12:43] -!- Brunetty_ has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[21:12:59] <Jymmm> But 3.2MILLION per sq mile?!
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[21:14:41] <zeeshan> http://turbozee84.imgur.com/all/
[21:14:43] <zeeshan> can you see this link
[21:14:45] <zeeshan> or access denied
[21:14:58] <LeelooMinai> You can fit in 1 m^2 fine, as long as you don't stretch the arms:)
[21:15:00] <Jymmm> turbozee84's images are not publicly available.
[21:15:09] <zeeshan> now?
[21:15:21] <Jymmm> nope
[21:15:34] <Jymmm> just open a private browser window
[21:16:11] <Jymmm> I can see your other albums though
[21:16:41] <Jymmm> zeeshan: You looke really cute in your pink fishnet stockings
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[21:29:51] <zeeshan> man i can't figure out
[21:30:06] <zeeshan> how to determine each solenoid's on time based on the CORRECTION which is in psi
[21:31:16] <PCW> CORRECTION is the PID output?
[21:31:33] <zeeshan> yes
[21:31:43] <zeeshan> do you see my psuedo code?
[21:31:45] <zeeshan> http://pastebin.com/PHpBXdf5
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[21:32:57] <zeeshan> like basically error is in term of psi
[21:33:03] <zeeshan> so the correction will be in term of psi
[21:33:31] <PCW> actuall the PID output will be ~PSI/sec
[21:33:49] <zeeshan> where is time coming from?
[21:34:07] <zeeshan> will i be running the pid loop at a certain rate?
[21:34:13] <PCW> rate of change of PSI when valve is open
[21:35:23] <PCW> Yes you need a fixed cycle time (say 1 second)
[21:35:50] <PCW> which is the PWM period
[21:36:09] <zeeshan> the rate of change of psi
[21:36:19] <zeeshan> is just dCorrection is it not?
[21:37:43] <PCW> no, think of this as a velocity mode servo, the command is PSI/sec (well except of an exponential as you get close to the high pressure side PSI in the chamber)
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[21:38:49] <zeeshan> okay i think i follow you
[21:38:53] <zeeshan> the error is in psi
[21:39:02] <zeeshan> but since we know the pid loop cycle time
[21:39:15] <zeeshan> i just take the correction factor i've currently got in the psuedo code
[21:39:19] <zeeshan> and divide it by cycle time
[21:40:23] <zeeshan> if cycle time is 1 sec, and correction is 5.15psi for example
[21:40:30] <zeeshan> the command should be 5.15psi/s
[21:40:38] <zeeshan> but now how does that relate to duty cycle of the solenoid?
[21:42:48] <PCW> you said the you got .4 PSI delta for .5 seconds of valve actuation so you are limited .8 PSI per second at full on
[21:42:50] <PCW> (we under you test conditions this is all very non-linear)
[21:43:37] <zeeshan> so i need a calibration factor for the command
[21:43:52] <PCW> thats the P term
[21:44:21] <zeeshan> oh
[21:44:32] <zeeshan> so my kp will automatically have that calibration factor
[21:44:34] <zeeshan> makes sense
[21:44:55] <zeeshan> i feel like it needs to be normalized to limit duty cycle from 0 to 80% for example
[21:47:09] <PCW> note that the gain will vary exponentially with an asymptote to 0 when the setpoint is at the high and low side pressure when you get close to either the high side or low side pressure
[21:47:56] <PCW> (since the flow rate decreases to 0 at these points)
[21:48:09] <zeeshan> so what are you proposing? :)
[21:49:08] <PCW> Ether dont run the chamber close to the high or low side pressures or perhaps do some gain scheduling
[21:49:23] <zeeshan> what is "high side pressure"
[21:49:26] <zeeshan> just so i am on the same page
[21:49:48] <PCW> your compressed air source
[21:49:58] <zeeshan> and low side being atmospheric
[21:50:23] <PCW> Right (or vacuum if you wish)
[21:50:29] <zeeshan> yea ill never run close to high side
[21:50:32] <zeeshan> but low side i need to be close to 0
[21:50:47] <Jymmm> zeeshan: In refrigeration units. high side is whats shves the refrigerant thru a nozzle and makes it cold. The low side is the return.
[21:51:02] <zeeshan> Jymmm: im just making sure :)
[21:51:10] <zeeshan> ive been doing too much different stuff to assume things at this point
[21:51:11] <Jymmm> zeeshan: no worries =)
[21:51:13] <zeeshan> and be even more confused!
[21:51:25] <Jymmm> zeeshan: I totally understnad. Been there, done that.
[21:51:49] <ssi> zeeshan: I have a popsicle.
[21:52:05] <Jymmm> I have otter pops!!!!
[21:52:05] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i should basically think of my "Correction" as command and command is in term of duty cycle
[21:52:16] <zeeshan> ssi can i has
[21:52:19] * JT-Shop relaxes with a Weihenstephaner Original
[21:52:25] <ssi> Jymmm: that's basically what I have
[21:52:28] <ssi> but diffrent bran
[21:52:29] <ssi> d
[21:52:33] <Jymmm> ah
[21:52:33] <ssi> zeeshan: yus
[21:53:06] <Jymmm> What is a cheap high CFM 12VDC fan/blower?
[21:53:12] <zeeshan> man doing this pid work
[21:53:21] <zeeshan> is really making me understand control in general
[21:53:23] <zeeshan> like i never have before
[21:53:27] <zeeshan> thanks to you guys!
[21:53:31] <zeeshan> <3 pcw
[21:54:29] <zeeshan> PCW: do you think having that if statement which ensures 30mS has passed
[21:54:30] <Jymmm> (Bromance)
[21:54:35] <zeeshan> before setting a command is a good idea?
[21:54:47] <zeeshan> so that way the solenoids arent being switched under 30ms
[21:54:51] <zeeshan> and basically doing nothing
[21:55:15] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIsw8n5VAAAYSvl.jpg:large
[21:55:21] <zeeshan> ssi
[21:55:23] <zeeshan> why arent you a pid expert yet
[21:55:27] <zeeshan> youv ebeen taking that course!
[21:55:38] <ssi> I was already a pid expert duh
[21:55:42] <zeeshan> youre slacking
[21:55:44] <zeeshan> !
[21:55:50] <PCW> Yeah probably 50 or so MS to do anything
[21:55:52] <ssi> now I sorta understand kalmann filters too
[21:56:07] <zeeshan> dude i used linuxcnc filtering code on my shit
[21:56:08] <zeeshan> lol
[21:56:14] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/1bFmi9O.png
[21:56:16] <zeeshan> came out pretty nice !
[21:57:16] <zeeshan> i wonder how i can tune this without hal scope
[21:57:33] <zeeshan> i was thinking zieger nichols to get my close
[21:57:35] <zeeshan> *me
[21:58:12] <ssi> you're dying to use zn aren't you :P
[21:58:16] <zeeshan> haha yea!
[21:58:19] <ssi> this is actually a pretty ok application for zn
[21:58:34] <zeeshan> id treat it as 2nd order id think
[21:58:39] * ssi is about to bust out some verilog for commutation conversion
[21:58:56] <MrSunshine> heh, thats lucky ... i just made the portal 500mm wide .. and wanted about 300mm movement of the machine side to side .. and the bering blocks was 85mm wide (two of them butt to butt) and i end up with 330mm movement =)
[21:59:00] <MrSunshine> perfect =)
[21:59:05] <zeeshan> isnt verilog used for programming fpgs?
[21:59:06] <zeeshan> fpgas
[21:59:11] <ssi> yes
[21:59:17] <zeeshan> dude i finally know what a fpga is
[21:59:20] <zeeshan> they are pretty sweet
[21:59:20] <ssi> haha
[21:59:43] <zeeshan> a fpga is basically any IC / microcoontroller/ whatever
[21:59:53] <zeeshan> it can even be an ADC
[22:00:02] <zeeshan> looks very complex to work with though
[22:00:18] <ssi> an fpga is a huge array of logic gates that you can programmatically wire together in nearly infinite combinations
[22:00:25] <zeeshan> yes
[22:00:37] <zeeshan> which literally means you can make an atmega in it
[22:00:39] <zeeshan> if you really wanted to
[22:00:43] <ssi> yes
[22:00:47] <zeeshan> i think thats sweet
[22:00:52] <zeeshan> i can see why mesa uses a fpga now
[22:00:54] <ssi> I first started messing with fpgas back in like 2000 or 2001
[22:01:01] <ssi> I had a spartan3 devboard from digilent
[22:01:05] <zeeshan> its custom designed for hardware control of signal processing
[22:01:07] <zeeshan> for servos etc
[22:01:10] <ssi> and I made a serial terminal with it
[22:01:23] <zeeshan> thats cool dude
[22:01:31] <ssi> had to bitbang vga, read ps2 keyboard lines, implement a scroll buffer, make my own font, all of it
[22:01:35] <ssi> it was pretty cool
[22:01:40] <zeeshan> like take the 5i25 for example
[22:01:48] <zeeshan> something like that prolly takes a good year to develop
[22:01:49] <zeeshan> i'd think?
[22:01:57] <zeeshan> and you have to be super competent
[22:01:57] <ssi> the actual hardware is very simple
[22:02:02] <ssi> the hm2 firmwares for it are the magic
[22:02:05] <zeeshan> i mean the firmware
[22:02:06] <ssi> there's a lot of moving parts
[22:02:07] <zeeshan> to program it
[22:02:16] <furrywolf> I was learning verilog and planning on a project around 2000-2001, but it never happened.
[22:02:17] <ssi> the firmware, the drivers, the daughterboards
[22:02:41] <zeeshan> im glad i know th is stuff
[22:02:44] <zeeshan> now im not gonna be an ignorant mech eng
[22:02:45] <zeeshan> :D
[22:02:47] <ssi> there are a lot of layers in a mesa-based linuxcnc-controlled machine
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[22:03:34] <ssi> axis, tp, motion, hal, hm2 drivers, hm2 on the fpga, daughterboard, servo drives
[22:03:44] <zeeshan> PCW: do i need to divide by cycle time anywhere?
[22:03:50] <zeeshan> or will that also be factored in P?
[22:03:50] <PCW> as someone that grew up with individual gates in chips they are incredible in that what used to be hardwired on a PCB is now programmable
[22:03:59] <ssi> they really are incredible
[22:04:14] <furrywolf> I still have bins of 74xx and 4000 logic...
[22:04:20] <zeeshan> ssi you really need to understand what these things are
[22:04:20] <ssi> yea me too
[22:04:23] <zeeshan> before you realize how complex they are
[22:04:25] <ssi> zeeshan: yep
[22:04:27] <zeeshan> to a normal person like me
[22:04:30] <zeeshan> they were just a chip
[22:04:57] <ssi> zeeshan: so now you can see what I was doing last year
[22:05:05] <ssi> I designed a board with a cpld on it
[22:05:09] <ssi> a cpld is like a baby fpga
[22:05:12] <PCW> to do your PWM in software you probably should run your loop at 50 Hz or so
[22:05:19] <ssi> and I was using it to do the commutation conversion
[22:05:38] <ssi> but since I mostly suck I neglected to provide myself an oscillator, so I was limited to only asynchronous designs
[22:05:49] <zeeshan> 20ms
[22:05:55] <zeeshan> i guess i can't use sleep anymore
[22:06:06] <zeeshan> cause that garbage doesnt work below 50ms
[22:06:15] <ssi> my original plan was to do a very simple state table type translation, but because of the 16/6 commutation ratio, it was too lumpy
[22:06:19] <furrywolf> eh, I've found usleep() to be pretty accurate, at least on linux.
[22:06:30] <ssi> when I wanted to hack in encoder counting, it didn't work out because I had no clock
[22:06:43] <ssi> so now I'm using a 7i90 as if it were just an fpga devboard to do it
[22:06:57] <zeeshan> haha nice
[22:07:07] <ssi> it'll just be a standalone piece of hardware
[22:07:19] <PCW> I have used ring oscillators in CPLDs for this purpose
[22:07:21] <ssi> eventually I'd like to learn how to use a 7i90 as a smartserial remote, I think that'd be pretty sweet
[22:07:23] <zeeshan> cycle time is factored in P right PCW?
[22:07:26] <ssi> but I gotta walk before I run right
[22:07:29] <zeeshan> so i dont actually need to divide it
[22:07:32] <ssi> PCW: ooh I'd like to know more about that
[22:07:42] <ssi> just use flipflops and the timing delays to make an oscillator?
[22:07:47] <furrywolf> usleep is excellent for ms timings, bad for us timings.
[22:08:00] <zeeshan> furrywolf: what languaGE IS THAT
[22:08:00] <zeeshan> ER
[22:08:05] -!- shurshur has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
[22:08:08] <PCW> you have to trick the compiler to leave all the stages in the ring
[22:08:10] <zeeshan> this c# online says sleep is no good below 50ms
[22:08:25] <ssi> haha gotcha
[22:08:36] <ssi> "The most critical part was to prevent xst from optimizing away the ring oscillator. This is achieved by the "keep" syntheses attributes."
[22:08:39] <furrywolf> sleep and usleep are standard C calls, that I'd hope C# implements...
[22:09:35] <furrywolf> my guess is windows simply can't do anything within 50ms accuracy, so they didn't bother designing a language that supported it?
[22:09:42] <PCW> OK so 20 Hz
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[22:09:46] <zeeshan> lol
[22:09:59] <zeeshan> how to test
[22:10:07] <zeeshan> im just basing it what i read online
[22:12:38] <furrywolf> does c# pretend to implement posix? I've never played with it.
[22:13:04] <furrywolf> or, rather, does its libraries...
[22:13:04] <zeeshan> yes
[22:13:14] <zeeshan> you can run the same code in linux through mono
[22:13:18] <zeeshan> windows and mac
[22:13:22] <zeeshan> without having to change anything
[22:13:26] <zeeshan> makes it kinda nice in that sense
[22:13:32] <furrywolf> that sounds more like a "no" to me.
[22:13:35] <zeeshan> lol
[22:17:29] <furrywolf> yeah, googling suggests c# doesn't even remotely pretend to be compatible with any standards on the planet, of any kind, ever.
[22:21:38] <zeeshan> i dont like the langauge
[22:21:39] <zeeshan> at all :P
[22:23:35] <ssi> C# isn't related in any way to C or C++
[22:24:40] <MrFluffy> ah, its nice and portable, just like java then
[22:25:24] <furrywolf> no, it's not.
[22:25:30] <MrFluffy> that was a joke in case its too subtle :)
[22:25:46] <MrFluffy> java aka write once and fiddle with for each platform...
[22:25:59] <ssi> java was actually intended to be portable
[22:26:01] <ssi> C# wasn't
[22:26:02] <furrywolf> it was not designed with portability in mind in any fashion, while java was. it's only marginally portable because third parties have, for reasons unknown, decided to write interfaces for it.
[22:26:12] <MrFluffy> yes the road to hell was paved with intentions like that...
[22:26:32] <MrFluffy> because miguel d'icarza was sponsored by microsoft...
[22:26:52] <MrFluffy> and shonked mono into linux despite lots of pushback
[22:27:17] <MrFluffy> and now, people dont need to bother making apps work natively, because wheeeee you can run them under mono (and crash a lot)
[22:27:51] <MrFluffy> classic embrace and extend...
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[22:29:31] <zeeshan> okay i basically logged time
[22:29:37] <zeeshan> and output it into a file and got the difference
[22:29:42] <MrFluffy> and a certain richard stallman described icaza as "traitor to the free software community" .. but enough
[22:29:44] <zeeshan> im getting 0.027s
[22:29:48] <zeeshan> so the people online were right
[22:29:56] <zeeshan> under 50ms its no good
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[22:34:06] <furrywolf> bbl
[22:39:18] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/IrLUzPb.png
[22:39:19] <zeeshan> no good1
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[22:52:16] <jdh> online people are always right!
[22:57:45] <MrFluffy> gnite all
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