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[00:00:15] <furrywolf> the "solar is a bad investment" zone? :)
[00:00:38] <XXCoder> furrywolf: thats why I was wondering about it as "cover the cooling costs" option rather than whole house
[00:01:04] <SpeedEvil> First step - what is your electricity bill for AC
[00:01:29] <SpeedEvil> Then it's likely that minor improvements in insulation, or shading could help way cheaper than solar
[00:01:39] <XXCoder> makes sense
[00:01:43] <XXCoder> thanks
[00:01:45] <furrywolf> when talking about system kw, you need to specify if you're talking about solar kw or inverter kw.
[00:01:56] <XXCoder> so housing power bills usually is in kwh correct?
[00:02:03] <XXCoder> so I need to figure solar kwh and so on
[00:02:03] <furrywolf> yes
[00:02:17] <SpeedEvil> One kWh is one kW for one hour
[00:02:45] <XXCoder> yeah units easy to figure for me, just thought kw is usual unit to use
[00:03:15] <XXCoder> http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solar-information/start-here/offgrid-calculator
[00:03:25] <XXCoder> brb
[00:03:38] <furrywolf> affordable-solar says they have nice panels for $0.74/W...
[00:04:28] <SpeedEvil> There are a lot of panels around that price here on ebay in ones, pickup only.
[00:04:45] <SpeedEvil> Entirely unrelated - there have been thefts from large solar farms.
[00:05:16] <furrywolf> there was a solar panel theft here a number of years back
[00:05:39] <furrywolf> some guy got a used caltrans truck, an orange vest, and went around in broad daylight and stole all the panels off road signs. :)
[00:07:19] <furrywolf> apparantly a bright orange truck and reflective vest is the best camouflage you can get. :)
[00:07:45] <SpeedEvil> yeah :)
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[00:20:44] <Roguish> hey all. In gmoccapy, using the DRO tab, how can I change it to show inches, rather than metric?
[00:22:23] <XXCoder> furrywolf: sad
[00:22:39] <XXCoder> but yeah professional looking, knowin what to do is best defense for criminal
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[00:24:23] <furrywolf> that gets into social engineering rather than garden-variety criminality.
[00:24:52] <SpeedEvil> Having the legislature respond to your lobbying is the best defense for a criminal.
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[00:26:37] <furrywolf> lol
[00:27:30] <furrywolf> one of california's water saving measures is that restaurants are not allowed to give customers drinking water without the customer asking for it. I can only imagine how much money the soft drink industry spent to get that tossed in there...
[00:28:10] <SpeedEvil> Wow.
[00:28:15] <SpeedEvil> That is just fucking mental
[00:28:26] <furrywolf> no, it's a quite intelligent plant to boost soda sales.
[00:28:36] <SpeedEvil> yes - I mean that it could pass
[00:29:19] <furrywolf> you had faith in our government? that's sad.
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[00:30:24] <XXCoder> hmm 17 kwh, lets assume 35kwh peak, now figuting solar stuff lol
[00:30:55] <XXCoder> well its not major water saving but less water wastage is good anyway
[00:31:11] <XXCoder> but want to save calfornia? kick almonds farms out
[00:31:16] <XXCoder> its HUGE water usage
[00:31:17] <furrywolf> it's a non-existant water saving. the same customer drinking soda uses more water.
[00:31:32] <XXCoder> yeah but water thown away is water wasted
[00:31:42] <furrywolf> however, the same customer drinking soda makes a bunch of people more money, while them drinking water does not.
[00:31:57] <XXCoder> peak sun hours 3.5 hours lol place I live sucks for solar
[00:32:20] <XXCoder> minium system size for 100% 21904 watts
[00:32:26] <XXCoder> 110 panels
[00:32:26] <furrywolf> it has nothing to do with water saving... it has to do with groups that stand to make money on soft drink sales finding a sneaky way to get a law passed to discourage water consumption.
[00:32:33] <furrywolf> 17kwh a day?
[00:32:42] <XXCoder> apparently
[00:32:49] <XXCoder> $200 a month
[00:32:52] <furrywolf> you must have electric heat and air conditioning?
[00:32:58] <furrywolf> wtf? $200 a month on electricity?
[00:33:08] <XXCoder> I suspect somethings wrong with power system here
[00:33:19] <XXCoder> BIG house though
[00:33:22] <furrywolf> yeah, like every other house on your block is wired to your meter...
[00:33:51] <XXCoder> here power price is hugh
[00:33:53] <XXCoder> high
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[00:33:54] <furrywolf> unless you're running electric hear and a/c.
[00:34:01] <furrywolf> heat
[00:34:05] <XXCoder> lemme check power
[00:34:22] <furrywolf> do you have electric heat and a/c?
[00:34:34] <XXCoder> heat yeah ac I dont think so
[00:34:54] <furrywolf> ... you don't think so? lol
[00:35:00] <XXCoder> I was consering adding centeral but high power cost
[00:35:04] <furrywolf> electric heat is probably why your bill is so high
[00:35:11] <XXCoder> 110 panels is nuts lol
[00:35:17] <XXCoder> why would we have it on now?
[00:35:52] <SpeedEvil> 110 panels would provide 20kW peak, or about 80kWh for 4 hours of sun.
[00:36:37] <furrywolf> I don't know why you'd have it on, but I can't imagine any other way you'd use 17kwh/day.
[00:36:59] <XXCoder> actually that may be average
[00:37:06] <XXCoder> year around
[00:37:07] <furrywolf> do you have 1700 cfl or led lamps running 24/7? :P
[00:37:17] <XXCoder> lol
[00:37:31] <XXCoder> that means winter heating is killer though
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[00:38:19] <XXCoder> linux calculator sucks
[00:38:32] <XXCoder> furrywolf: know of better calculator than mint stock?
[00:38:39] <SpeedEvil> bc
[00:39:00] <XXCoder> shell interesting
[00:39:43] <furrywolf> I have no idea what calculator mint comes with. I use bc and units for my calculation needs.
[00:40:05] <XXCoder> 510 kwh a month gives me 17 kwh and 25 panels
[00:40:08] <XXCoder> more reasonable
[00:40:26] <XXCoder> peak uses would need grid power but otherwise not too bad
[00:40:32] <SpeedEvil> Can you net meter where you are.
[00:40:41] <SpeedEvil> That is almost the most important number
[00:40:43] <SpeedEvil> err
[00:40:45] <SpeedEvil> feature
[00:40:46] <SpeedEvil> thingy
[00:40:49] <furrywolf> first, keep in mind panels only put out half their rating.
[00:40:54] <XXCoder> if more expensive 310 watt 16 panels
[00:41:04] <furrywolf> their rating is for a cold panel perfectly aimed at the noon sun at the equator.
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[00:41:19] <XXCoder> furrywolf: makes sense
[00:41:27] <SpeedEvil> half is not a bad average for a sunny day.
[00:41:33] <XXCoder> always wondered if could use stirling to cool panels lol
[00:41:41] <SpeedEvil> On a non-sunny day - way worse than that. Fan is a plus.
[00:41:46] <SpeedEvil> Anything more is overkill
[00:41:48] <SpeedEvil> Or a chimney
[00:41:57] <furrywolf> your panels will be hot (GREATLY lowers output), not aimed anywhere near the sun (unless you have a tracker), and not at the equator.
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[00:42:50] <SpeedEvil> However, panels today are so cheap that trackers - with their severe added mounting unreliability, complexity and wind-catchability are often uneconomic versus mounting more panels pointing the way you want
[00:42:50] <XXCoder> though minor thing I want is just add small stand solar panels in backyard and use it to power ac lol
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[00:43:43] <furrywolf> are you planning on grid-tie of off-grid? off-grid requires substantial oversizing to deal with multiple cloudy days.
[00:43:57] <XXCoder> yeah on grid more like i
[00:44:02] <furrywolf> for grid-tie, you need to investigate the rate structure of your local utility.
[00:44:10] <XXCoder> off grid for shed anyway need lights and basic stuff thats all
[00:44:35] <furrywolf> if they only pay you 1/10th what they charge you, there's not much point in oversizing your system at all, as it's just throwing money away.
[00:44:46] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Well, yes and no.
[00:44:57] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: It means you can offset baseload very easily
[00:45:08] <furrywolf> also plan on adjusting your usage to correspond to sunny days. for example, I only do laundry when it's sunny...
[00:45:09] <SpeedEvil> But going to much more than baseload is questionable
[00:45:41] <furrywolf> if I have to do a load of laundry when it's cloudy, I won't have enough power to tumble dry.
[00:45:48] <furrywolf> unless I run the generator.
[00:45:52] <XXCoder> interesting
[00:45:56] <furrywolf> (dryer is a big load)
[00:46:05] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: why tumble-dry, and not a greenhouse drier say
[00:46:27] <furrywolf> because if there's no sun, any sun-based drying won't work any better? :P
[00:46:38] <furrywolf> keep in mind it's usually 90% or so humidity here. clothes don't dry on their own.
[00:46:41] <SpeedEvil> Very limited sun can get to +10C
[00:46:42] <SpeedEvil> ah
[00:47:00] <SpeedEvil> +10C means you're at 50% humidity or less
[00:47:06] <SpeedEvil> Even with 90% outside
[00:47:23] <furrywolf> I have a greenhouse. it's more humid than anywhere else. :P
[00:47:24] <SpeedEvil> I dry in surprisingly cold and dull weather in my greenhouse and it works well
[00:47:34] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I don't actually grow stuff in it
[00:47:35] <SpeedEvil> :)
[00:47:40] <XXCoder> furrywolf: check this
http://www.mdpub.com/suntracker/
[00:47:47] <XXCoder> he used solar paels as tracker
[00:48:00] <XXCoder> read to bottom for upgrades he did to make it work better
[00:48:17] <furrywolf> yes, I know how solar trackers work.
[00:48:27] <SpeedEvil> The hard part isn't getting it to work.
[00:48:27] <XXCoder> not this one
[00:48:29] <furrywolf> I also know, as speedevil already said, they're not useful at current panel prices.
[00:48:39] <SpeedEvil> The hard part is getting it to work for 20 years and not blow away.
[00:48:41] <furrywolf> yes, I know how THAT ONE works, because you've pasted it before.
[00:48:54] <XXCoder> ahh more clear. ok lol
[00:49:43] <XXCoder> its not worth for house but portable yea
[00:49:48] <SpeedEvil> Plus - he uses an antenna rotator.
[00:49:59] <SpeedEvil> Where exactly would you source 25 antenna rotators cheap?
[00:50:14] <furrywolf> unless you build a piece of crap, which is a bad idea when you're talking a thousand pounds of panels, the upfront cost exceeds the upfront cost of additional non-tracking panels to get the same output, while adding issues of structural support, maintenance, repairs, storm damage, additional room to allow for movement, etc.
[00:51:01] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: 25? looks like he used only one?
[00:51:03] <furrywolf> the morning and evening sun aims through a lot of atmosphere (and associated weather), and depending on your areas, trees, neighbor's houses, etc... you don't get much extra in most areas.
[00:51:18] <furrywolf> XXCoder: because he only has 1/25 the panel area you're talking about.
[00:51:25] <SpeedEvil> Plus - more non-tracked panels means better performance on very dull overcast days
[00:51:36] <XXCoder> interesting
[00:51:38] <XXCoder> thanks guys
[00:52:27] <furrywolf> trackers were a great idea when panels were $10/watt. now that they're $0.80/watt, it's a lot cheaper to just add a few more panels.
[00:53:01] <SpeedEvil> Vertical tracking may or may not be worth it
[00:53:06] <furrywolf> note that new commercial installations either use very, very large trackers (taking advantage of economy of scale), or fixed panels.
[00:53:07] <SpeedEvil> - where you adjust for summer or winter
[00:53:24] <SpeedEvil> manually
[00:53:33] <XXCoder> place I work at has HUGE roof space
[00:53:43] <furrywolf> does it point the right direction?
[00:53:56] <XXCoder> so big that it could probably power must everything under it even pointing up
[00:54:20] <XXCoder> I would just add enough solar panels to power lights
[00:54:30] <XXCoder> because good grief theres so many lights.
[00:54:53] <furrywolf> there's a cheaper device for that. it's also 5+ times more efficient.
[00:54:56] <SpeedEvil> Pointing flat up actually works more-or-less OK here.
[00:54:58] <furrywolf> it's called a skylight.
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[00:55:12] <XXCoder> yeah my old place had it
[00:55:17] <XXCoder> pretty good
[00:55:21] <furrywolf> actually, more like 50 times as efficient
[00:55:22] <XXCoder> *work place
[00:55:38] <XXCoder> my current work place dont have en
[00:55:39] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: not 50 times.
[00:55:50] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: More like 20 times.
[00:55:51] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: you're right, more than 50 times. :P
[00:55:58] <XXCoder> old place had em, and it can pop up for cooling
[00:56:08] <furrywolf> 20 times? where are you getting these >25% efficient light emitters?
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[00:56:57] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Corretion ~8 times
[00:57:36] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Sunlight is 130klm/m^2. A good panel will put out 190W/m^2. This - with 100lm/W LEDs can get you to 19klm.
[00:58:10] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: theres now led "bar lights" (dunno what its proper name is? them glass tubes)
[00:58:35] <XXCoder> price has lowered a whole lot but still bit more money than cheap mecury containing ones
[00:58:38] <SpeedEvil> 100lm/W LEDs are 'low end' now.
[00:58:51] <SpeedEvil> (on a component level)
[00:59:16] <furrywolf> a good panel is 14% efficient. a good inverter is 90-95% efficient. a good LED lamp is... blah, I can't find a quick number googling.
[00:59:31] <XXCoder> led varies a lot too
[00:59:41] <SpeedEvil> I was assuming DC inverter to LEDs and 95%
[01:00:10] <SpeedEvil> But it's clearly better than 10 - best case.
[01:00:20] <SpeedEvil> best actually manufacturable case.
[01:00:24] <furrywolf> I think there's some math error there, because led efficiencies are sill only around 10% iirc.
[01:00:53] <SpeedEvil> The 'error' is as a lot of light is in IR, and the solar panel uses some of that too.
[01:01:03] <SpeedEvil> Plus, modern LEDs are a bit better than 10%
[01:01:17] <SpeedEvil> Exactly how you measure them is hard.
[01:01:41] <XXCoder> dunno if useful
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy
[01:01:46] <XXCoder> it has leds
[01:01:47] <SpeedEvil> Quality of white matters.
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[01:03:27] <furrywolf> ok, found a forum page that says 683 lm/w would be a 100% efficient light source. so 100lm/watt is 15% efficient
[01:03:41] <SpeedEvil> It's not that easy
[01:03:44] <SpeedEvil> that's for pure green
[01:04:00] <furrywolf> which means white is even less efficient. :P
[01:04:12] <SpeedEvil> 5800 K black-body truncated to ≥5% photopic sensitivity range - is probably a sane comparator
[01:04:15] <XXCoder> that wiki says max theoretical white led is 46%
[01:04:24] <XXCoder> and rest is far below it
[01:04:29] <SpeedEvil> this is a spectrum which is virtually indistinguishable from the sun
[01:04:59] <SpeedEvil> And can be 340lm/W. Best 'white' LEDs are somewhat north of 150lm/W.
[01:05:02] <furrywolf> 1/(.15 * .95 * .15) makes skylights 47 times as efficient
[01:05:34] <SpeedEvil> This makes it 40% - but the reason for the difference is they are not solar identical.
[01:06:06] <furrywolf> best != available at walmart
[01:06:09] <SpeedEvil> If you are simply asking for 'how much area of solar panel + LED do I need to equal a window'
[01:06:23] <furrywolf> also, plugging 40% in still means 18 times less efficient
[01:06:33] <SpeedEvil> - and come out as sort-of-white - you get ~8 times.
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[01:07:03] <furrywolf> now, let's look at $/lm... :P
[01:07:23] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: That can be complicated, as windows can thermally screw your design
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[01:09:15] <furrywolf> a 1m2 skylight costs about $100, and gives you, by your math, 130klm. that's $0.77/klm. a 1klm LED bulb is $10, and needs $30 of solar panel to run it, plus $10 of inverter, $5 of mounting,...
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[01:10:05] <SpeedEvil> I'm ignoring commercially available LEDs, and consireding what I can make.
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[01:10:50] <furrywolf> and given how much more solar installers cost than roofers, figure it's $75 for 1klm of solar led, vs $0.77 for the 1klm of skylight... or about 1/100th the cost to put in a skylight vs grid-tie solar panels running lights. :)
[01:10:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/XHP70A-01-0000-0D0BN20E1/XHP70A-01-0000-0D0BN20E1CT-ND/5051097 * 16 will run one square meters worth of solar panels, and produce 25klm
[01:11:27] <XXCoder> whats that
[01:11:38] <SpeedEvil> For about $400
[01:11:42] <XXCoder> oh led
[01:11:59] <SpeedEvil> In small quantity.
[01:12:06] <furrywolf> 6500k, 70cri? fuck that
[01:12:10] <furrywolf> even costco led lamps are pushing 90cri.
[01:12:16] <SpeedEvil> And yes, this is bad white light
[01:12:33] <SpeedEvil> you can drop quite a lot.
[01:12:36] <XXCoder> I love my costco fake tube lights leds
[01:12:37] <SpeedEvil> er
[01:12:39] <SpeedEvil> err
[01:12:42] <XXCoder> nice lights
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[01:12:56] <SpeedEvil> I mean - knock a third off the lumens if you want nice whites
[01:13:08] <furrywolf> Feit (the generic crap costco sells) has "92+" CRI...
[01:13:45] <CaptHindsight> what makes a white bad vs nice? evil vs good?
[01:14:06] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: you can make a light which looks visially white with a yellow and a blue - two pure colours.
[01:14:13] <furrywolf> http://www.feit.com/led-lamps/Enhance_LED_A-Bulbs except I bought a stack of those at costco and half them promptly failed with ballast issues. fortunately costco has an excellent returns policy, and gave me all my money back.
[01:14:29] <XXCoder> my room has those lights
[01:14:31] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: whites are never bad. only blacks are bad. just ask the police.
[01:14:31] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: it looks white to the eye - but of course is terrible if you actually want to look at stuff under it.
[01:14:41] <XXCoder> 5 of em, 2 of em used as alarm lights
[01:15:01] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: CRI - colour rendition index - is how similar colours look under it to sunlight.
[01:15:09] <SpeedEvil> Or is it tungsten - I forget
[01:15:33] <furrywolf> both tungsten and sun have excellent CRIs, just different color temperatures...
[01:15:59] <CaptHindsight> but but warm whites are best for womens powder rooms, so isn't this subjective?
[01:16:03] <SpeedEvil> I should look at the definition of CRI and understand it.
[01:16:16] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: To a degree, yes
[01:16:54] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: But a light that looks sufficiently wierd can be not actually very useful or restful to be under.
[01:17:54] <furrywolf> my favorite color quality issues is a flatbed scanner I used to have that scanned someone's colored pencil drawing with all the colors severely wrong, such as yellow as black. because the pigment reflected a specific actual yellow wavelength, and neither red nor green...
[01:18:16] <furrywolf> it's the same way with LEDs... cheap ones cause colors to look very, very wrong.
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[01:20:02] <furrywolf> wow, apparantly you can get 97 CRI LED lamps now
[01:20:13] <furrywolf> 98, even
[01:20:27] <SpeedEvil> remote phosphor lamps are pretty awesome
[01:21:25] <furrywolf> http://www.yujiintl.com/high-cri-led-lighting example
[01:22:02] <XXCoder> still unsure what CRI is
[01:22:16] <XXCoder> oh site has answer
[01:22:26] <XXCoder> "CRI (color rendering index) is a measure of how accurately a light source illuminates objects' true colors. Our LED lights have CRI values of up to 98, indicating that our LED lights are able to produce white light that approximates halogen or incandescent lighting and natural daylight. "
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[01:47:56] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0-Sf8ohG2aY dang
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[01:51:37] <XXCoder> oh furrywolf how do I tell if theres illegal taps on house electric system
[01:52:14] <furrywolf> http://images.craigslist.org/00C0C_ahGf3JNVLCT_600x450.jpg lol, shiny
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[01:52:34] <XXCoder> whats it
[01:53:07] <furrywolf> "bontanical extractor"
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[01:54:37] <furrywolf> for extracting active ingredients from botanicals.
[01:55:34] <XXCoder> pot?
[01:55:45] <humble_sea_bass> bong
[01:56:03] <XXCoder> furrywolf: my bro finally found it. it was indeed close to what I calculated
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[01:56:14] <XXCoder> 2375 kwh a month
[01:56:34] <furrywolf> yes, pot. lol
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[01:56:55] <XXCoder> 2375 kwh dunno if thats normal
[01:57:13] <furrywolf> for $5000 you too can make hash oil...
[01:57:47] <furrywolf> http://humboldt.craigslist.org/for/5073071864.html some fancy plumbing there
[02:00:01] <XXCoder> furrywolf: youre right house is using way too much kwh
[02:00:09] <XXCoder> its more than double average
[02:00:55] <malcom2073> Lol
[02:01:07] <SpeedEvil> Twice average doesn't mean that much
[02:01:24] <SpeedEvil> you really want to know what the comparators are for your property type
[02:01:46] <furrywolf> about once a month around here someone manages to blow up their house making hash oil. it's somewhat amusing. it's worse than moonshine still explosions...
[02:01:47] <SpeedEvil> it's clearly ridiculous for a small, well-insulated single room apartment without any AC needs.
[02:02:04] <malcom2073> Worse than meth lab explosions?
[02:02:19] <XXCoder> meth heh even if its not exploding it kills house anyway
[02:02:44] <SpeedEvil> I have problems making drugs.
[02:02:51] <malcom2073> SpeedEvil: You should stop
[02:02:59] <SpeedEvil> I couldn't legitimately sell stuff without a GC/MS/...
[02:03:33] <humble_sea_bass> 10lb botanical closed loop extractor ONE TIME DEAL - $5000 (Anywhere you want it)
[02:03:37] <humble_sea_bass> i love the title
[02:03:51] <humble_sea_bass> humbold gonna be humbold
[02:03:53] <XXCoder> http://michaelbluejay.com/electricity/whyhigh.html nice gonna read it
[02:04:05] <furrywolf> a month or two ago two hash labs blew up less than an hour apart, in different cities, spreading the fire department out...
[02:05:03] <t12> theyre not hash labs theyre butane enthusiasts!
[02:05:07] <humble_sea_bass> what do they make hash oil with? dont they use butane or some quick boiling hydrocarbon or some such
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[02:05:24] <malcom2073> XXCoder: killawatt, best $20 I ever spent
[02:05:30] <malcom2073> in terms of finding out what's using energy
[02:05:32] <XXCoder> malcom2073: has it yeah
[02:05:42] <XXCoder> hmm wonder where its at now
[02:05:44] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I want to make aerogel with the alcohol process
[02:05:48] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: which is similarly fun
[02:06:09] <SpeedEvil> ~600PSI/300C
[02:06:36] <furrywolf> the hash people use large amounts of butane... any leak quickly reaches the LEL...
[02:06:50] <t12> supercrit co2 is the real way to do it
[02:07:04] <t12> diy supercritical co2 is way more dangerous than butane though
[02:07:08] <XXCoder> heh if I designed hash lab, I would make it vent out fast
[02:07:10] <t12> in noncommercial rig
[02:07:29] tjb11 is now known as tjb1
[02:07:56] <humble_sea_bass> explosion proofing is a costly endeavour
[02:08:30] <humble_sea_bass> lately I've been learning about fluid collections storage because of work with two different natural history museums
[02:09:14] <humble_sea_bass> a lot of specimens are preserved in methanol and ethanol
[02:09:42] <furrywolf> both of which stay liquid much better than butane does. )
[02:09:43] <furrywolf> :)
[02:10:10] <humble_sea_bass> so you can try and suppress the flashpoint by keeping the collections and labs at 55 degrees
[02:10:17] <XXCoder> one of things I want to play with is striling for making liquidfied air
[02:10:45] <humble_sea_bass> furrywolf: with out a doubt. open air butane is a crazy hazard
[02:11:28] <furrywolf> it's not intentionally open air...
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[02:12:07] <humble_sea_bass> well i mean some jamoke watches it evaporate and they assume it is going away to the sky to see jesus
[02:12:19] <furrywolf> lol
[02:12:19] <humble_sea_bass> when in actuallity it is heavier than air
[02:12:34] <furrywolf> that's why you use a shiny stainless closed-loop system
[02:12:42] <humble_sea_bass> so every single outlet at std height is an ignition source
[02:13:39] <humble_sea_bass> so for labs. all outlets are omitted for storage, and the working areas have explosion proof outlets that still sit above the work bench
[02:14:22] <humble_sea_bass> using the closed loop system entails one being a sophisticated hash oil manufacturer.
[02:14:49] <humble_sea_bass> i'm sure they are all *watch a you tube video* -> EXPERT
[02:14:53] <furrywolf> lol
[02:15:06] <furrywolf> which they probably watch while sampling previous product...
[02:15:12] <humble_sea_bass> and the alure of a big boiler pot is just so damn great
[02:15:42] <humble_sea_bass> if i can make soup with it, then I can make hash, right!?
[02:16:02] <furrywolf> my solution is to have absolutely nothing to do with it. growing, using.. no.
[02:16:42] <humble_sea_bass> it is a good move to keep explosive and illegal things outside of the homestead
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[02:22:26] <XXCoder> infinite of infinities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=mhkou9vxSMY
[02:23:14] * furrywolf just finds it amusing the variety of things that show up on craigslist
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[03:09:34] <XXCoder> furrywolf: finally figured why it was so high
[03:09:37] <XXCoder> its bimonthly bill
[03:09:44] <XXCoder> so its actually half that amount lol
[03:11:21] <furrywolf> lol
[03:11:51] <XXCoder> yeah and half the amount IS somewhat close to average
[03:12:00] <XXCoder> bit high but large house too
[03:12:15] <XXCoder> winter 2 month bill was near 5k lol due to heat cost
[03:12:22] <XXCoder> 5k kwh
[03:12:37] <furrywolf> yeah, electric heat does that.
[03:12:51] <furrywolf> I have wood heat, although I never use it.
[03:13:03] <furrywolf> it doesn't get cold enough here to need heat...
[03:13:15] <XXCoder> wonder if centeral air conditioner uses less power or not
[03:16:09] <XXCoder> anyway yeah seems winter is major problem for this house
[03:16:16] <XXCoder> hard to get things war,
[03:16:18] <XXCoder> warm
[03:17:09] <furrywolf> then your best bet for saving money might be adding insulation (under floor and in attic, for example), installing double-glazed windows, installing window curtains, installing/replacing door weatherstripping, etc.
[03:17:31] <furrywolf> it's often much easier and cheaper to save power than to generate more
[03:17:36] <XXCoder> yeah not on house we dont own :)
[03:17:45] <XXCoder> we are considering moving next summer
[03:17:50] <XXCoder> because this house sucks
[03:17:55] <XXCoder> and this time, own
[03:18:11] <furrywolf> I wish I could afford a house.
[03:18:22] <XXCoder> well theres those tiny houses... lol
[03:18:39] <furrywolf> those don't count. :P
[03:18:49] <furrywolf> also, there's nothing tiny about my collection of tools and other crap.
[03:19:00] <XXCoder> honestly if I can let go crap I could own tiny house
[03:20:03] <furrywolf> that means you need more toys.
[03:20:18] <XXCoder> lol
[03:20:21] <XXCoder> no, I dont
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[03:21:10] <furrywolf> how do you fit the bridgeport, plasma table, etc in the tiny house? :P
[03:21:25] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: tiny bridgeport house
[03:21:31] <XXCoder> actually if I had tiny house I would make shop
[03:21:54] <XXCoder> honestly all I need is microwave, oven, bedroom, restroom
[03:22:45] <furrywolf> lol
[03:23:03] <XXCoder> other option is earthship
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[06:53:02] <Deejay> moin
[06:53:42] <XXCoder> noyes
[07:04:59] <Deejay> hi
[07:05:23] <XXCoder> whats up
[07:06:08] * Deejay looks at the ceiling
[07:06:37] <XXCoder> oh wow I got ceiling here too. amazing.
[07:07:02] <Deejay> indeed ;)
[07:07:20] <XXCoder> wonder how mnay has one here
[07:07:24] <XXCoder> probably all of em lol
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[07:09:30] <Deejay> what should your "noyes" mean?
[07:09:38] <Deejay> you write it all the time
[07:09:42] <XXCoder> heh was random
[07:09:51] <XXCoder> you never seemed to reply till now lol
[07:10:02] <Deejay> hmm
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[07:12:31] <XXCoder> discworld apparently has one book to go
[07:12:55] <XXCoder> finished by her daugher looks like? but it will be the final one
[07:13:11] <XXCoder> she said it will be last, and she will not give permission for anyone else to write
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[08:17:33] <toastyde2th> uh has anyone else had bash suddenly start tab completing args for programs
[08:17:52] <toastyde2th> like apt is suddenly fully tab completing every goddamn thing
[08:21:19] <XXCoder> shell?
[08:24:43] <archivist> I dont remember if readline is linked into apt
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[08:26:42] <archivist> grep says not
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[10:06:28] <aventtini> friends has anyone tryed to use eaglecad for hal conf?
[10:07:04] <archivist> I just use an editor
[10:17:15] <archivist> I am not sure a visual editor really helps much
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[10:24:56] <XXCoder> you guys ever have bad
[10:25:02] <XXCoder> distributor?
[10:25:05] <XXCoder> whats symtoms?
[10:25:39] <archivist> engine stops, broken camshaft
[10:26:00] <archivist> there are many symptoms, silly question
[10:26:13] <XXCoder> would bad idle when warm part of it?
[10:26:21] <XXCoder> and sometimes weak
[10:26:23] <archivist> depends on what is failing
[10:26:42] <archivist> petrol/diesel?
[10:27:23] <archivist> injected/ carb
[10:27:35] <XXCoder> petrol
[10:27:40] <archivist> ECU or old style
[10:27:42] <XXCoder> injected not too sure but think so
[10:27:54] <XXCoder> 1996 van, nissan quest
[10:28:15] <XXCoder> ecu definitely
[10:28:40] <archivist> then sensors failing as well as airfilters etc
[10:29:39] <archivist> time to get the last errors read from the ecu
[10:30:03] <XXCoder> theres one great video that shows distributor sparking when cap isnt connected
[10:30:06] <XXCoder> gonna try that
[10:30:11] <XXCoder> see if its intact
[10:30:20] <XXCoder> ecu how do I readout from ecu? all I know is odb
[10:30:21] <archivist> dont
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[10:30:44] <archivist> arcing can damage stuff dont provoke
[10:31:28] <XXCoder> problem is that I cant hear it sparking if thats the case.
[10:31:49] <XXCoder> though it should be marking cap, and the other symtom of brown dust due to going bearings
[10:32:03] <XXCoder> thats what I plan to check tomorrow.
[10:32:12] <archivist> get a hearing person to help, garage mechanic
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[10:32:53] <archivist> dust is a sign of problems though
[10:33:14] <XXCoder> I know of only one, hes very busy
[10:33:22] <XXCoder> he usually work 10-12 hours a day, 5 days
[10:34:07] <archivist> if he is that busy he will probably give good rather than bad advice :)
[10:34:14] <XXCoder> lol
[10:34:32] <archivist> there are some frauds about
[10:34:37] <XXCoder> $130 for new one isnt bad
[10:34:50] <XXCoder> almost tempted to just go replace it stright out but rather just check some things
[10:35:07] <archivist> nah wrong method of repair
[10:35:29] <XXCoder> so, besides carbon tracks and brown dust what should I look for in dist
[10:35:35] <archivist> blunderbuss replacement is expensive
[10:35:55] <XXCoder> yeah I just want it to work reasonable smooth
[10:36:02] <Loetmichel2> XXCoder: in germany 90% of the garage mechanincs can only read out the ecu. if that sows no error you are out of luck.
[10:36:10] <archivist> in 50 years of cars I have had only one fail
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[10:36:23] <Loetmichel2> the old "we can HEAR whats wrong with the engine" masters are dying away fast
[10:36:44] <XXCoder> I fixed buncha things and its hella better but still little problems like bit rough idle and once a while flipping p0400 erropr
[10:36:50] <archivist> diagnosis beats replacement till ok method
[10:37:02] <XXCoder> all fixes is pretty minor
[10:37:25] <XXCoder> toughest one so far was termostat that was rough one
[10:37:33] <XXCoder> cheap part though
[10:37:52] <archivist> air leaks and air filter blocked and a sensor failure are all probably more likely than distributor
[10:38:01] <XXCoder> wasnt as tough as water pump from hell - ford contour 1998
[10:38:15] <XXCoder> didnt think of air filter
[10:38:26] <XXCoder> its still orginial from buying from dealer
[10:38:32] <XXCoder> year ago or so
[10:38:56] <archivist> rough running is generally a mixture issue if not mechanical
[10:39:06] <XXCoder> probably orginial as previous owner didnt seem to do much of maintance
[10:39:16] * Loetmichel2 will dismantle his 500c bike today
[10:39:17] <XXCoder> if not orginial been years
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[10:39:25] <Loetmichel2> broken main wiring harness
[10:39:25] <archivist> time for a "full service"
[10:39:31] <Loetmichel2> 50cc
[10:39:34] <XXCoder> Loetmichel2: does ecu errors show in odb2 or?
[10:39:39] <Loetmichel2> they do
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[10:39:49] <Loetmichel2> if you ghave the fitting software for all errors
[10:39:57] <XXCoder> then its SOL, only errors that ever happen is p0400
[10:40:04] <XXCoder> which is too much or too little egr flow
[10:40:05] <archivist> ecu is measuring the mixture, it gets that wrong if a sensor fails
[10:40:10] <Loetmichel2> the "generic" soft usually shows only the grave faults, not the little ones
[10:40:47] <XXCoder> heh it used to have few more egr related errors
[10:40:48] <archivist> it tries to correct for blocked air filter etc
[10:41:14] <XXCoder> okay so its check dist a bit and crack open air filter and see
[10:41:24] <XXCoder> its probaly so dirty plants grow on it
[10:41:32] <XXCoder> or mushrooms considering its in dark lol
[10:42:20] <archivist> some sensors have a limited life like the air filter does
[10:42:39] <XXCoder> like oxy sensor?
[10:42:59] <XXCoder> what does full service do anyway
[10:43:41] <archivist> see your manual, different for each car
[10:43:45] <Loetmichel2> airflow sensors break after some miles. too
[10:44:01] <XXCoder> checked MAF seemed fine, cleaned it with electrics cleaner
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[10:47:37] <archivist> and replace spark plugs, checking the colour of them to see engine condition
[10:47:46] <XXCoder> also already replaced em
[10:47:54] <XXCoder> old ones wow was bad
[10:47:57] <archivist> what colour were the old
[10:48:14] <XXCoder> burnt basically, 3 was fine, just very old
[10:48:24] <XXCoder> 2 had black traces, and one very bad
[10:48:36] <XXCoder> I suspect something failed but whatever keep it running
[10:48:51] <archivist> one bad may point to a mechanical fault in that cylinder
[10:48:59] <XXCoder> yeah
[10:49:09] <XXCoder> its not fixable so I just leave it as is there
[10:49:12] <archivist> or lead or distributor cap
[10:49:18] <XXCoder> sparkplug cant be screwed all way down
[10:49:21] <XXCoder> dist cap is new
[10:49:24] <XXCoder> wires is old
[10:49:36] <archivist> get the thread fixed
[10:49:49] <XXCoder> meh I guess just 2 mm short
[10:50:01] <XXCoder> isnt that repair hundreds of bucks
[10:50:31] <archivist> leaking past the thread is causing problems!
[10:50:56] <XXCoder> even when it was very tight?
[10:52:11] <XXCoder> removing old one was tough too
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[10:54:04] <XXCoder> archivist: heh it was scary removing that sparkplug
[10:54:10] <XXCoder> so much troque
[10:54:24] <XXCoder> I broke 2 tools getting it out
[10:54:28] <archivist> that needs repair
[10:54:30] <XXCoder> granted, cheap ones but yea
[10:54:38] <archivist> or another cylinder head
[10:55:24] <archivist> likely loss of compression at idle causing your missfire
[10:55:25] <XXCoder> so far from what I read, distributor is extremely common problem with quests
[10:55:51] <XXCoder> why does it idle perfectly when park mode?
[10:56:08] <XXCoder> and cold it always idle just fine parked and in drive/brake mode
[10:58:03] <XXCoder> I used to have P0300 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire
[10:58:13] <XXCoder> and that bad spark plug misfire
[10:58:20] <XXCoder> but not since new spark plugs and ca[
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[10:59:47] <XXCoder> interesting. one post says coil (which is part of dist) gets problems when hot, and worn dist bearing will heat it up too
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[11:01:51] <XXCoder> anyway
[11:01:59] <XXCoder> archivist: thanks again
[11:02:43] <XXCoder> man. so many posts "replaced dist and it runs smooth"
[11:03:00] <XXCoder> http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/7354/nissan/quest/nissan-quest-engine-problems
[11:06:24] <XXCoder> archivist: one post about air filter
[11:06:34] <XXCoder> it was apparently wet and it was blocking air
[11:07:00] <archivist> depends on vehicle what the common faults are
[11:07:05] <XXCoder> yeah
[11:07:12] <XXCoder> it seems dist #1 then air filter
[11:07:29] <XXCoder> expecially when van has so many miles as mine has (189k miles)
[11:16:18] <XXCoder> whats extra fun is that its former junkyard van
[11:16:30] <XXCoder> so it has million minor issues, mostly fixed now
[11:16:41] <XXCoder> for example rear window used to not close properly
[11:16:54] <XXCoder> bum rear washer, semi-broken rar hatch
[11:17:02] <XXCoder> all works just fine now
[11:17:20] <XXCoder> *wiper
[11:19:02] <XXCoder> yeah it was heck of fun learning lot stuff
[11:19:08] <XXCoder> anyway night and thanks again!
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[12:37:00] <aventtini> hello i sow someting on the wiki can we configure with eglecad servo based systems
[12:37:17] <aventtini> i ha instaled ad see some of the stepper config
[12:38:23] <archivist> I dont think anyone is actively supporting doing it in eagle
[12:38:51] <aventtini> its more simple to do
[12:39:02] <aventtini> in eagle cad
[12:39:04] <aventtini> :)
[12:39:29] <archivist> if it was we would get many more requests in here
[12:40:06] <archivist> yours is the first in a long time (year or more possibly)
[12:40:54] <archivist> most use stepconf and pncconf then graduate to editing the configs
[12:41:10] <aventtini> if you can make all the configuration with a program way not . as for the tool changer
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[12:43:07] <archivist> you generally cannot use one method for all the config
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[12:43:40] <aventtini> sure
[12:44:04] <aventtini> but its more simple to see where you made some bad decisions
[12:45:09] <jthornton> isn't eagle for pcb's?
[12:45:23] <aventtini> eagle2hal
[12:45:39] <jthornton> never heard of it
[12:45:43] <jthornton> got a link?
[12:45:45] <archivist> jthornton, yes, using eagle is a kluge
[12:45:48] <aventtini> one sec
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[12:46:00] <aventtini> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Eagle2HAL
[12:46:04] <jthornton> archivist, sounds like it
[12:46:29] <aventtini> i just instaled the demo to test and see
[12:46:44] <archivist> it has some idealistic aims but needs something opensource and maintained
[12:46:45] <aventtini> it has all the comp
[12:46:49] <aventtini> nice
[12:47:05] <aventtini> i want to use it on axis tool changer
[12:47:11] <aventtini> just as a test
[12:47:30] <aventtini> maybe its wrong or hard ,but must see about this
[12:47:31] <aventtini> :D
[12:47:50] <jthornton> I could see a graphic tool to configure with being mach like
[12:48:01] <archivist> there are new comps since 2.4 you know?
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[12:48:23] <aventtini> sure
[12:48:25] <aventtini> :)
[12:48:42] <aventtini> i was just reading about
[12:49:46] <aventtini> usualy i tend to use next , next button but as i step in more complicated configurations i need to learn
[12:50:01] <aventtini> i have 4 cnc machine to upgrade
[12:50:12] <aventtini> with linuxcnc
[12:50:28] <archivist> advanced users edit the files :)
[12:50:32] <jthornton> do you know how to search all the files and subdirectories and print to a file any text between [[ ]]?
[12:50:36] <aventtini> as i was really good experaince
[12:50:58] <aventtini> sure it takes time
[12:51:02] <aventtini> takes
[12:51:18] <aventtini> now im setting first time a tool changer
[12:51:30] <aventtini> as a subroutine
[12:51:50] <archivist> jthornton, grep or ark
[12:51:53] <aventtini> i connected all the wires on mesa
[12:51:54] <archivist> awk
[12:52:11] <aventtini> and now im tryng to understand the code
[12:52:12] <jthornton> looking up awk now
[12:53:23] <archivist> grep can dive into directories, awk is better at "programming"
[12:53:42] <aventtini> there is a request section on the forum
[12:53:46] <jthornton> lots of hits using grep and sed
[12:53:46] <archivist> some use sed as an inbetween
[12:53:54] <aventtini> i need a indramat mdc 10.40 motor
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[13:20:40] <JT-Shop> dgarr must be incognito, thanks for the code
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[13:34:42] <Tom_itx> i know eagle rather well but that eagle thing just seems like one more confusing step to getting a working hal config
[13:35:00] <Tom_itx> some of you may find this interesting:
http://www.precisionmicrodrives.com/application-notes-technical-guides/application-bulletins/ab-021-measuring-rpm-from-back-emf
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[13:45:02] <malcom2073> Oh nice, so you measure the high voltage kickback from PWMing the motor and you can get an accurate representation of rpm?
[13:45:03] <malcom2073> That's kinda cool
[13:45:51] <malcom2073> Or are they measuring voltage just in the deadtime between pwm pulses?
[13:46:00] <malcom2073> Ah yeah that's it
[13:46:58] <archivist> sucks at 100% duty cycle though :)
[13:47:07] <malcom2073> Hah yeah.
[13:47:34] <malcom2073> So it works at anything under full load
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[13:48:37] <pcw_home> Except theres no good time to sample the signal when the duty cycle is high enough
[13:49:30] <pcw_home> Theres another tricky way to do this that does not rely on sampling the backemf directly
[13:51:09] <pcw_home> but rather determines the dI/dT vs changes in applied voltage (Duty cycle*VBus)
[13:52:23] <pcw_home> which allows you to calculate the back EMF without actually measuring it
[13:56:27] <Tecan> do metal lathes make good wood lathes too ?
[13:56:36] <Tecan> or is it better to have both
[13:58:37] <JT-Shop> wood is abrasive...
[13:59:03] <Tom_itx> pc fans work that way i think
[14:00:32] <JT-Shop> I need to add one to the CHNC so I can put the lid back on the PC
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[14:06:11] <Tom_itx> PC's have lids?
[14:06:44] * Tom_itx wonderd what that pile of tin was for
[14:07:39] <JT-Shop> it's inside the CHNC and I made a lid to cover the old hole where the controls were
[14:08:00] <JT-Shop> if I close it up the motherboard overheats
[14:08:16] <JT-Shop> so I can't mount a touch screen in there...
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[14:09:30] <JT-Shop> yea, the motorcycle ride is canceled for today... I get a nap instead
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[14:10:36] <Tom_itx> looks like it just quit raining here
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[14:20:32] <Roguish> JT-Shop: hey, u know gmocappy? how does one get the DRO tab to read in inches rather than mm? my set up is entirely inch based and I have modified everything I can find.
[14:22:24] <JT-Shop> I looked at gmocappy once but it looked too much like mark and gave me a headache looking at the funny icons
[14:23:37] <Roguish> ok, thought i would ask. i'll post something in the forum. did u get your 5i20 working again?
[14:24:18] <JT-Shop> 5i20?
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[14:24:35] <JT-Shop> didn't know it was broke
[14:25:25] <JT-Shop> I'd assume you can configure inch
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[14:26:07] * JT-Shop uses Touchy on the BP
[14:26:54] <Roguish> how is Touchy to actually use? do u use a touch screen?
[14:27:48] <JT-Shop> yes, it has a touch screen and I think it is more intuitive to use than the others
[14:28:11] <JT-Shop> it has a few annoying features but not annoying enough to make me change them lol
[14:29:03] <Roguish> ok. i'll look at it also. i'm trying to 'update' my BP series II.
[14:29:24] <Roguish> i have a 15" touch screen.
[14:29:32] <JT-Shop> mine is a BP series I
[14:29:41] <JT-Shop> with an Anilam conversion on it
[14:30:02] <JT-Shop> do you have your screen mounted?
[14:31:33] <Roguish> not yet. the touch sceen is on my test setup in my office, but i want to move it to the mill along with the new 6i24 (on a new board).
[14:32:14] <JT-Shop> let me get you a photo of my setup it works well (for me)
[14:32:27] <Roguish> mill has some old tape drive dc brush motor with lmd18200 drivers.
[14:33:52] <Roguish> motors are too small for the mill, drives are too small for the motors, but that means I just make mistakes a lot slower.
[14:34:24] <JT-Shop> that is a good thing
[14:34:43] <Roguish> yeah, i really don'
[14:35:35] <Roguish> don't mind. i'm an engineer, not a machinist and I know it well. but it's fun. making my own designs helps with reality
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[14:42:00] <archivist> Tecan, I do a small amount of wood turning on a metal lathe, usually for making a wooden chuck
[14:51:05] <Tom_itx> woodchuck?
[14:51:11] <Tom_itx> how much wood could a ....
[14:52:47] <archivist> when re bushing a clock spring barrel you have to hold by the teeth, easy to bore some wood to -.1mm and push it in and then bore the bush
[14:54:41] <Tom_itx> makes sense
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[14:59:01] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, 5v is where it should be now
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[15:17:03] <JT-Shop> Roguish,
http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/ the two touch images are my setup
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[15:27:40] <Roguish> JT-Shop: thanks. what size is the screen? 15 or 17 or ? like the prominent E-stop. what are the other physical buttons/switches below the screen?
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[15:38:06] <JT-Shop> start stop estop increments axis
[15:38:18] <JT-Shop> I have a MPG on the X axis
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[15:45:11] <JT-Shop> MPG
http://gnipsel.com/images/bp-knee-mill/bp-mill%2001.jpg
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[16:24:43] <Roguish> JT-Shop: i like the minimalist approach. well done. what do you have in the way of touch offs? and tool height setting?
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[16:35:54] <zeeshan|2> anyone work with 4 wire glass scales?
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[16:47:36] <pcw_home> I've heard of 4 wire touch screens, not sure what a 4 wire scale is
[16:47:52] <zeeshan|2> i have glass scales that i scavenged from a machine
[16:47:54] <zeeshan|2> it has 4 wires
[16:48:00] <zeeshan|2> blue, brown, red and yellow
[16:48:22] <archivist> google the part number :)
[16:48:26] <zeeshan|2> doesnt exist
[16:48:32] <zeeshan|2> magtek scales
[16:48:36] <archivist> google the maker
[16:48:39] <pcw_home> might be power,gnd,A,B
[16:48:49] <zeeshan|2> PCW: im hoping
[16:48:55] <zeeshan|2> but i dont wanna put 5v into something idont know 5v goes into
[16:48:59] <zeeshan|2> i've had bad luck in the past! :P
[16:49:28] <pcw_home> 5V is better than 12 or 24 :-)
[16:49:33] <zeeshan|2> haha
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[16:50:21] <archivist> sure it is glass that name points at mag strip readers too
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[16:51:02] <pcw_home> what does the scale look like?
[16:51:08] <zeeshan|2> lemme snap a pic
[16:54:06] <archivist> or be brave, clean an area, take a cover off peer inside
[16:56:04] <zeeshan|2> ill take it apart
[16:56:12] <zeeshan|2> but wanted to see if it was some standard wiring
[16:56:46] <zeeshan|2> http://imgur.com/a/JDn2o
[16:56:52] <zeeshan|2> i recalled all the stuff from memory wrong :p
[16:57:04] <zeeshan|2> white, yellow, green, brown wire
[16:57:13] <zeeshan|2> megtek
[16:58:02] <zeeshan|2> the number isn't active anymore either :P
[17:00:26] <pcw_home> looks like maybe the machine integrators part number as opposed the the scale manufacturers
[17:00:38] <zeeshan|2> ah
[17:00:43] <zeeshan|2> there are no other markings on the outside of it
[17:01:01] <pcw_home> is the scale glass?
[17:01:18] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:01:21] <zeeshan|2> looks like it
[17:01:46] <pcw_home> I would do as archivist says and remove the read head cover
[17:02:12] <zeeshan|2> i have 2 reader heads on one scale
[17:02:16] <zeeshan|2> i can blow one up if needed
[17:02:17] <zeeshan|2> haha
[17:02:32] <zeeshan|2> i wanna use these on the lathe
[17:03:22] <pcw_home> if you can look at the read head electronics (if any) the pinout is probably fairly easy to decipher
[17:04:15] <pcw_home> ( with an Ohmmeter )
[17:04:49] <zeeshan|2> so ill note continuity between +vcc and gnd
[17:04:56] <zeeshan|2> but nothing between say vcc and a and vcc and b
[17:05:02] <zeeshan|2> and gnd and a and gnd and b
[17:05:05] <tjtr33> zeeshan|2, that maybe a service org in miamisburg ohio
[17:05:06] <zeeshan|2> (too many ands)
[17:05:21] <tjtr33> thats the area code
[17:05:25] <zeeshan|2> ah
[17:05:29] <pcw_home> well that will be obvious from the parts/connections in the read head
[17:05:42] <zeeshan|2> obvious to pcw who has programmed a fpga
[17:05:46] <zeeshan|2> !!!
[17:05:47] <zeeshan|2> :-)
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[17:06:24] <tjtr33> yeah two heads on one scale just for debug i spose
[17:06:42] <pcw_home> If there are any chip, the power connections of the chips are easily determined
[17:06:48] <pcw_home> chips
[17:07:07] <zeeshan|2> ok ill take one apart
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[17:13:18] <tjtr33> i have an Athlon II X2 250 cpu. and want to check latency, do i issue a single "gzip -c /dev/urandom > /dev/null" while checking latency?
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[17:15:33] <cpresser> tjtr33: do just _everything_. use flash in the browser, run a openGL game, ...
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[17:19:16] <pcw_home> videos seem about the worst on my various test systems
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[17:20:34] <tjtr33> thx trying to duplicate suggestion on wiki latency page.
[17:20:39] <zeeshan|2> man wtf kind of scales are these
[17:20:51] <pcw_home> compile a kernel...
[17:21:27] <zeeshan|2> avago h972x series
[17:21:38] <zeeshan|2> the 4 wires go right into a digital output optical encoder module
[17:22:28] <tjtr33> http://imagebin.ca/v/25EHomMtUQWe
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[17:23:15] <tjtr33> chromium & youtube gets > 50K
[17:23:20] <zeeshan|2> wait
[17:23:21] <zeeshan|2> are you kidding
[17:23:24] <zeeshan|2> is this all a glass scale is?
[17:23:29] <Rab> zeeshan|2, very simple quadrature output according to the datasheet. Do you have a specific question?
[17:23:48] <zeeshan|2> this is nothing like a heidenhain
[17:24:00] <zeeshan|2> this can go right into a 7i76e
[17:24:13] <tjtr33> yep ttl scales are simple
[17:24:27] <zeeshan|2> im curious to find out the resolution now
[17:24:32] <zeeshan|2> ill go to the makerspace and use their scope
[17:24:48] <zeeshan|2> no rab :P
[17:24:48] <tjtr33> (so is the heidenhain AFTER the exe box )
[17:24:55] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:25:35] <tjtr33> the rez is directly the size of grating, not interpolated from a sine/cos pair
[17:25:42] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:25:48] <zeeshan|2> im gonna throw a dial indicator on there
[17:25:58] <zeeshan|2> i wonder if i can do it without a scale
[17:26:05] <zeeshan|2> just a digital mm
[17:26:27] <zeeshan|2> give 5v , and then probe between a and gnd
[17:26:30] <zeeshan|2> i should see 5 v spikes
[17:27:04] <Rab> While the scale is in motion, yeah. But to measure the resolution you'd need very precisely controlled motion.
[17:27:17] <zeeshan|2> i know
[17:27:21] <zeeshan|2> thats why id use a dial indicator
[17:27:25] <zeeshan|2> :P
[17:27:39] <cpresser> just push it one millimeter and count the pulses?
[17:27:46] <zeeshan|2> exactly! :D
[17:27:55] <zeeshan|2> c-clamp scale to a table
[17:28:05] <zeeshan|2> then put a tenths indicator on the head
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[17:28:34] <Rab> Better to push it as far as the dial indicator will go, like 1cm.
[17:28:47] <zeeshan|2> i'd move it any arbirtary amount
[17:28:49] <archivist> or an inch
[17:28:51] <zeeshan|2> since it'll be hard to do
[17:29:01] <Rab> Sure there isn't a code printed right on the scale?
[17:29:10] <zeeshan|2> there are tiny bars
[17:29:30] <tjtr33> clean those off !! :)
[17:29:39] <Rab> Yeah, but there are usually etched/vapor dep numbers as well with MFG's part no.
[17:29:43] <zeeshan|2> oh
[17:29:44] <zeeshan|2> i dont see that
[17:29:48] <zeeshan|2> im talking about the scale itself
[17:30:05] <tjtr33> the reticle _is_ the tiny bars, thats the etching
[17:30:21] <tjtr33> (i was kidding abouyt rubbing them off )
[17:30:37] <pcw_home> if its a HEDS 972X its like 1mm resolution :-(
[17:31:04] <zeeshan|2> howd you figure that out
[17:31:16] <pcw_home> data sheet
[17:31:20] <tjtr33> 1mm scale? use the scale in your shirt pocket!
[17:31:49] <zeeshan|2> on page 5?
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[17:32:14] <zeeshan|2> i see a window/bar ratio
[17:33:35] <pcw_home> window width looks to be close to 2 mm nominal (min 1.8 max 2.3 mm )
[17:33:36] <Rab> Under ordering information, they show resolution options. The highest is HEDS-972xP, 150 LPI.
[17:33:43] <zeeshan|2> its a hed-97 20
[17:33:48] <zeeshan|2> L
[17:33:50] <Rab> Which I assume is lines per inch?
[17:33:56] <zeeshan|2> 08 51
[17:34:03] <zeeshan|2> L = 120 lpi
[17:34:04] <Rab> L is linear scale, 120LPI.
[17:34:07] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:34:37] <zeeshan|2> so .0083"
[17:34:38] <zeeshan|2> garbage
[17:34:40] <zeeshan|2> lol
[17:34:55] <pcw_home> so 480 counts/inch
[17:35:06] <zeeshan|2> how arey ou getting that :P
[17:35:10] <zeeshan|2> cause its quadrature?
[17:35:10] <pcw_home> ~2 mill res
[17:35:12] <zeeshan|2> * 4x
[17:35:15] <pcw_home> yes
[17:35:20] <zeeshan|2> 0.002"
[17:35:29] <zeeshan|2> garbage!
[17:35:40] <zeeshan|2> going in the scrap
[17:35:56] <pcw_home> well maybe ok for a gas torch table
[17:36:12] <Rab> Or a 3D printer!
[17:36:22] <Rab> How long are these scales?
[17:36:38] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: the machine these came from had like 40+ closed loop steppers
[17:36:42] <zeeshan|2> 40" and 16"
[17:37:02] <pcw_home> weird
[17:37:09] <zeeshan|2> i still am confused why you can't easily use closed loop steppers in linuxcnc
[17:37:19] <zeeshan|2> by just using encoder input into linuxcnc + step and dir
[17:37:26] <zeeshan|2> and vary the step pulse width or something
[17:37:42] <pcw_home> well you can (but theres closed loop and closed loop)
[17:37:43] <zeeshan|2> these guys were using some chips that did that
[17:37:48] * cpresser did that.
[17:38:21] <cpresser> closed loop stepper with a 4000ppr encoder, resulting in (theoretical) 0.001mm resolution
[17:38:43] <pcw_home> we have a number of customers that use closed loop with linearscales and standard step motor drives
[17:39:07] <zeeshan|2> well to make matters a bit more complex
[17:39:15] <zeeshan|2> each stepper has an encoder wheel
[17:39:21] <zeeshan|2> some have us-digital 500ppr
[17:39:24] <zeeshan|2> some 200ppr
[17:39:27] <zeeshan|2> some 1000
[17:39:41] <zeeshan|2> (maybe its 500 lines)
[17:39:47] <zeeshan|2> i dont have them in front of me right now :/
[17:39:50] <pcw_home> you gain some advantages of a fully closed loop stepper system using a standard drive and feedback
[17:40:01] <pcw_home> but not all
[17:40:19] <zeeshan|2> [13:39:47] <zeeshan|2> i dont have them in front of me right now
[17:40:27] <zeeshan|2> er
[17:40:30] <zeeshan|2> http://www.motion-designs.com/images/DTrends_Nov_2010.pdf
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[17:40:40] <zeeshan|2> if you look at page 3 , the graph with velocity and position (red and black lines)
[17:40:54] <zeeshan|2> they shows an error that's fixed towards the end of travel (kinda useless for cnc)
[17:41:00] <zeeshan|2> then they show torque control
[17:41:10] <zeeshan|2> on page 4 they show before and after feedback
[17:41:16] <zeeshan|2> and it's like dead on throughout the travel
[17:41:33] <zeeshan|2> im curious how you do that kind of control (hardware wise)
[17:41:37] <pcw_home> a fully closed loop system uses the step motors as a 50 pole 2 phase servo (with encoder driven commutation hence no stalls)
[17:41:55] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:42:11] <zeeshan|2> does that require a special motor driver?
[17:42:26] <pcw_home> that is the stator phase always leads or lags the rotor position by 90 electrical degrees
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[17:44:46] <pcw_home> you can approximate this with a normal drive/linuxcnc/encoder feedback but it needs two difficult things
[17:44:47] <pcw_home> 1. current control (normal step drives are always at full current)
[17:44:49] <pcw_home> 2. a very fast commutation (say 50 KHz sample) not possible with normal Linuxcnc hardware
[17:45:13] <zeeshan|2> what about mesa hardware? :D
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[17:45:52] <zeeshan|2> the automation technologies drives don't have current control
[17:46:05] <pcw_home> Not possible with PC servo thread latency
[17:47:14] <pcw_home> its possible with old Mesa hardware (for example our SoftDMC/ 7I32 do this)
[17:47:46] <Loetmichel2> sooo, 3 liters of 2-propanol and a dead gasket in the flower atomzier flask later the wask hive here on the balcony seems to be "uninhabitated"... *getting rid of that thing*... and i have definetly a slight intoxication ;-)
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[17:48:42] <pcw_home> Fastest I have had a servo thread running is 10 KHz
[17:48:59] <zeeshan|2> ah
[17:49:03] <zeeshan|2> so ultimately what youre saing
[17:49:10] <zeeshan|2> is you need purpose built stepper motor drives
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[17:52:41] <pcw_home> Yes
[17:52:58] <pcw_home> Leadshine makes some nice ones
[17:55:06] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Closed-Loop-stepper-drive-HBS86H-NEMA34-motor-30-100V-8A-Leadshine-dhl-freeship-/121559962161?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4d89d231
[17:55:14] <zeeshan|2> nice
[17:55:37] <zeeshan|2> so i guess the main limitation vs servo would be
[17:55:46] <zeeshan|2> that i guess servos can achieve faster speeds.
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[18:08:48] <JT-Shop> Roguish, I use the dowel method or the paper method for Z touch off, I have a 1/2 dowel in one holder to set the X position, Y is the rear jaw of the vise so it is known. Simple and quick and accurate
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[18:18:55] <pcw_home> Yes you still lose a lot of torque at higher speeds but you basically cannot lose steps anymore
[18:18:57] <pcw_home> and the motors stay cool when idle since they are supplying no torque
[18:18:58] <pcw_home> (as opposed to a normal stepper that spends much of its time pulling radially on the rotor to no great effect)
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[18:20:00] <pcw_home> (that is, pulls radially with full force/current)
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[18:32:33] <zeeshan|2> i might do that conversion on the lathe
[18:32:40] <zeeshan|2> cause it means getting new drives..
[18:32:40] <zeeshan|2> thats it
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[19:14:33] <aventtini> man how is the servo motor guy here im tryng to finde a indramat MDC 10.40 motor and no succes . I need a replcemant
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[19:14:55] <aventtini> Brused DC motor
[19:15:18] <aventtini> and i cant see the manual
[19:15:23] <aventtini> its 170v
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[19:24:36] <furrywolf> why do you need a replacement? burnt windings?
[19:26:04] <robinsz> so, tell me, how easy is it ot change the labels in the GUI?
[19:26:08] <robinsz> I was going to use the "flood" M code and buttonf for the vac clamp, just need to re-label it
[19:26:12] <furrywolf> no clue
[19:26:35] * furrywolf knows far more about brushed motors than guis
[19:26:59] <robinsz> you would have liked the one on the router chassis i sold this week
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[19:28:06] <robinsz> main X axis motor was probably 15" long, 6 or more inches diameter, dc servo
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[19:44:19] <aventtini> i lost the motor
[19:44:21] <aventtini> :)))
[19:44:40] <aventtini> i send it for repair and it was gone from shippemnt
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[20:26:43] <Deejay> re
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[20:41:10] <zeeshan|2> JT-Shop: around?
[20:44:30] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: hi
[20:44:35] <zeeshan|2> i have a pic for you!
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[20:47:53] <furrywolf> I was about to go shopping, but I could look at a pic first...
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[20:49:07] <XXCoder> archivist: hey
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[20:50:02] <zeeshan|2> sec
[20:50:04] <zeeshan|2> its uploading
[20:50:15] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/ipAkMXQ.jpg
[20:50:17] <zeeshan|2> tada...
[20:50:26] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I finally found why my van has bit rough idle when warm
[20:50:39] <XXCoder> Distributor is going
[20:50:53] <XXCoder> bunch of brown dust lol bearings probably gone
[20:51:04] <zeeshan|2> it looks like itll work
[20:51:05] <zeeshan|2> :-)
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[20:53:14] <furrywolf> bunch of brown dust is normal. replace cap and rotor.
[20:53:33] <furrywolf> it's vaporized dust from the arcing
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[20:53:50] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: shiny
[20:54:08] <furrywolf> does your tube fit in them? :P
[20:54:09] <zeeshan|2> yea dude, thanks for the help
[20:54:13] <zeeshan|2> tube fits yes
[20:54:16] <zeeshan|2> but ill need to make a jig.
[20:54:25] <zeeshan|2> im crushing it between two plates on a hydraulic press
[20:54:42] <zeeshan|2> it goes to the right height but not correct width
[20:54:53] <zeeshan|2> i need to put 2 steel blocks, so it limits the width
[20:55:04] <zeeshan|2> or i can massage it with a hammer :d
[20:55:20] <furrywolf> did you tap the bottom one, or just using short bolts for the photo?
[20:55:31] <zeeshan|2> bottom is tapped
[20:55:33] <zeeshan|2> top is clearance
[20:55:36] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah ordering a dist now
[20:55:43] <XXCoder> cap is new so no worries there
[20:55:46] <furrywolf> make sure to use lots of antiseize.
[20:55:51] <XXCoder> the spinny thing is new too
[20:55:54] <zeeshan|2> i use copper anti seize
[20:55:56] <zeeshan|2> for exhaust crap
[20:56:02] <zeeshan|2> otherwise you're asking for trouble
[20:56:12] <zeeshan|2> i was worried that it might not seal (the flange)
[20:56:18] <zeeshan|2> but i looked at a 2 bolt standard 3" exhaust flange
[20:56:22] <zeeshan|2> and that thing seals no problem lol
[20:56:33] <furrywolf> XXCoder: brown dust is not indicitave of failure... as the spark jumps from the rotor to the cap, it erodes them, which forms the brown dust...
[20:56:51] <furrywolf> the tube welded into it makes it VERY stiff.
[20:56:54] <XXCoder> whats that spinny thing called? the one that turn
[20:57:01] <zeeshan|2> rotor
[20:57:36] <furrywolf> unless you can feel radial play in your upper bearings, the dist is fine. :P
[20:57:40] <JT-Shop> back for a little bit
[20:57:46] <zeeshan|2> the contacts wear out
[20:57:47] <furrywolf> (end play is normal, as is rotational play... radial play is bad)
[20:57:49] <XXCoder> furrywolf: well it seemed likely to me, since so many quests have this issue, expecially with mileage my van have traveled and basically only old parts left is wires and dist
[20:57:57] <zeeshan|2> JT-Shop: youre a cnc mill master
[20:58:19] <zeeshan|2> i want to walk you what i do on the mill and why i think it's not working how i think it should work
[20:58:48] <furrywolf> XXCoder: I've heard many people have cancer... so you should start chemo now since it seems likely.
[20:58:50] <zeeshan|2> i home machine. i set tool 1 as a reference too, i touch my work piece and do touch off for Z. i load up tool 2 and do a tool touch off
[20:58:56] <zeeshan|2> and tool 3 tool touch off.
[20:59:00] <zeeshan|2> everything works great for the program.
[20:59:22] <XXCoder> furrywolf: ironically I MAY have cancer, I really need to check into it, has lumps few places
[20:59:29] <furrywolf> heh
[20:59:31] <zeeshan|2> now i am working on a completely different part, which uses the same 3 tools. i go to the work piece with tool 1 and touch off the part in the Z.
[20:59:36] <zeeshan|2> my tool 2 and tool 3 are completely wrong now
[21:00:00] <furrywolf> my point is that just because many vehicles have a problem, doesn't mean yours has that problem, without symptoms directly relating to that problem or tests showing it...
[21:00:38] <XXCoder> symtoms does seem to match too
[21:00:53] <XXCoder> it has stalls and once a while misfire only when warm
[21:00:53] <JT-Shop> zeeshan|2, are you touching off to the workpiece or the tool table?
[21:01:00] <XXCoder> cold it runs perfectly
[21:01:14] <XXCoder> barely can even feel engine (I'm VERY sensive)
[21:01:15] <zeeshan|2> im touching off with tool 1 using g54 touch off
[21:01:19] <zeeshan|2> (for both work pieces)
[21:01:20] <furrywolf> that doesn't sound like a bad dist at all.
[21:01:42] <zeeshan|2> my tool table shows tool one has no values for x y z
[21:01:44] <XXCoder> quests dists apparently always work fine when cold
[21:01:50] <XXCoder> then break when warm
[21:01:53] <furrywolf> ignition problems tend to be worse when cold or at full throttle, and work perfectly when warm or idling.
[21:02:31] <furrywolf> getting worse with increased throttle is the characteristic ignition problem symptom
[21:02:44] <XXCoder> thing is it improves with throttle
[21:03:06] <furrywolf> I had a bad set of wires once that'd run four cylinders at idle, three at 1/4 throttle, two at 1/2 throttle, one at 3/4 throttle, and no cylinders at all at full throttle. :)
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[21:03:25] <furrywolf> ignition problems never improve with throttle. :P
[21:03:51] <JT-Shop> zeeshan|2, did you touch off the tools first to some common place and set the tool table then touch off to the material with G54?
[21:04:19] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[21:04:21] <zeeshan|2> no
[21:04:25] <JT-Shop> zeeshan|2,
http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/g-code/gen05.html
[21:04:26] <zeeshan|2> i did g54 first
[21:05:05] <furrywolf> the required spark voltage is proportional to the pressure in the cylinders. at idle, with very low pressure in the cylinders, it takes a very low voltage to spark, so a seriously marginal ignition system works. as you open the throttle, the cylinder pressure increases, and the required spark voltage increases. if you have a marginal ignition issue, it misfires when the required spark voltage exceeds what it can supply.
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[21:05:36] <JT-Shop> to set the tools you want either no G54 offsets or be somewhere else like g55 when you touch off the tool table or have touch off to tool table selected
[21:06:04] * JT-Shop turns his hat around to the chef hat
[21:06:12] <zeeshan|2> haha
[21:06:27] <zeeshan|2> so tool 1 will actually have values in the tool table for Z
[21:06:37] <zeeshan|2> since the tool table is relative to machine coordinate system
[21:06:42] <zeeshan|2> (if i've done it right)
[21:07:17] * zeeshan|2 reads your page
[21:08:02] <furrywolf> if your dist bearings are completely shot, you can get jumpy timing, but this is easily checked by feeling for play.
[21:08:24] <XXCoder> how far should I be able to move that spinny thing around
[21:08:55] <furrywolf> the shaft the rotor is on shouldn't wiggle side to side more than a few thousandths. it can move up and down a fair bit, and being able to rotate is normal.
[21:09:15] <furrywolf> (rotating it winds up the advance mechanism)
[21:09:38] <XXCoder> really? I can wiggle it a little but not rotate
[21:09:53] <furrywolf> does your dist have a centrifical advance system?
[21:10:07] <XXCoder> not sure actually
[21:10:18] <furrywolf> many computerized vehicles do not, only older ones, and points ignitions.
[21:10:46] <furrywolf> how much can you wiggle it?
[21:10:47] <XXCoder> looks like no
[21:10:57] <XXCoder> would need to go to it and check again
[21:11:18] <zeeshan|2> you dont need a distributor!!
[21:11:24] <zeeshan|2> just light it with a lighter!
[21:11:25] <zeeshan|2> :D
[21:11:31] <XXCoder> lol
[21:11:32] * zeeshan|2 is not helpful
[21:11:44] <XXCoder> thanks for nice antihelp zee :)
[21:11:44] <zeeshan|2> ive never used a carb
[21:11:47] <zeeshan|2> of distributor in my life
[21:11:49] <furrywolf> they can usually tolerate quite a bit of play before things really stop working, but it can cause jumpy timing
[21:11:52] <zeeshan|2> thats why im useless
[21:11:57] <Deejay> gn8
[21:12:15] <zeeshan|2> with the car off
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[21:12:33] <zeeshan|2> i'd measure the resistance between the exit and entry to distributor
[21:12:41] <furrywolf> on subarus the standard symptom of a worn distributor is the tach randomly jumps around
[21:12:45] <zeeshan|2> and see if the contact resistance is some retardly high amount
[21:12:48] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: if you have no clue what you're talking about, don't antihelp. :P
[21:12:56] <zeeshan|2> i have common sense :)
[21:13:03] <XXCoder> so he can do antihelp only when he knows? lol
[21:13:06] <furrywolf> no, you don't. :P
[21:13:13] <zeeshan|2> dude
[21:13:18] <zeeshan|2> my buddies 240sx distributor
[21:13:21] <zeeshan|2> had the contacts shot
[21:13:45] <furrywolf> because if you had any clue at all how a dist works, you'd know there's no mechanical contact, and the spark jumps between the rotor and the cap... which you're not going to measure the resistance of.
[21:13:47] <zeeshan|2> there was so much resistance in the contacts from corrosion that the spark was jumping inside the distributor
[21:14:12] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: cap is new
[21:14:13] <zeeshan|2> okay so it's not contact resistance
[21:14:18] <zeeshan|2> its the surface resistance!
[21:14:23] <furrywolf> if you measure anything other than infinite resistance, something is very wrong. :P
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[21:14:51] <zeeshan|2> we scotch brited it (this was a long time ago)
[21:14:54] <zeeshan|2> and everything was back to normal
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[21:15:23] <zeeshan|2> then he got some sense and got coil on plug
[21:15:25] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[21:15:33] <furrywolf> yes, that happens. it's due to contamination of the cap with deposits from the spark eroding the contacts. you will NOT be able to measure this with any home tools.
[21:15:52] <furrywolf> the only way to measure it would be to build a rig to measure the breakdown voltage... it's probably over 20kV...
[21:16:20] <furrywolf> and problems like that tend to get worse with increased throttle opening, just like all other ignition problems. :P
[21:16:31] <furrywolf> let me guess, it idled fine, then missed worse the more he stepped on the gas?
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[21:16:41] <zeeshan|2> had issues in boost
[21:16:46] <zeeshan|2> spark blowout
[21:16:48] <zeeshan|2> weak spark
[21:16:50] <furrywolf> same thing... higher cylinder pressure.
[21:17:16] <furrywolf> I don't think xxcoder's van has boost. :)
[21:17:20] <zeeshan|2> go shopping grouchy man
[21:17:22] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[21:17:26] <XXCoder> man?
[21:17:32] <zeeshan|2> woman
[21:17:34] <zeeshan|2> heman
[21:17:35] <zeeshan|2> sheman
[21:17:36] <zeeshan|2> i dont know
[21:17:38] <furrywolf> wolfy! :P
[21:17:51] <XXCoder> yep the old emeny of mankind lol
[21:18:30] <XXCoder> apparently 1999 year is expecially bad for distributor
[21:18:35] <furrywolf> a dirty cap causes the standard ignition symptom of getting worse at higher cylinder pressures... when the spark voltage exceeds the breakdown voltage of the cap, there goes your spark.
[21:18:48] <furrywolf> XXCoder: in what way does the distributor typically fail?
[21:19:09] <XXCoder> it tend to break down and cross spark. mine does not have that part though, but still tend to break and make bunch of brown dust like mine does
[21:19:31] <XXCoder> same as 1996 one, 1999 one problemic only when warm
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[21:20:08] <XXCoder> 1999
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn54z0W19lQ
[21:20:15] <XXCoder> BAD sparks
[21:20:38] <XXCoder> 4:21 is where fun starts
[21:21:01] <furrywolf> my internet connection is pretty crappy today. have a web page? :P
[21:21:41] * furrywolf hates video in general, and hates it even more when it takes a half hour to load
[21:22:19] <XXCoder> trying to figure how to do screenshot lol
[21:22:35] <XXCoder> though theres a site a sec
[21:22:42] <XXCoder> http://forums.edmunds.com/discussion/7354/nissan/quest/nissan-quest-engine-problems
[21:22:51] <XXCoder> gonna love clip cache
[21:23:02] <furrywolf> the brown dust isn't a problem... if you're really worried about it, pull it out, spray it in brake cleaner, dump some motor oil down it, and put it back in. but it's not likely to help. and if you don't know what you're doing, it's likely to not work. :P
[21:23:40] <XXCoder> oh yeah
[21:23:47] <XXCoder> how sensive is dist angle
[21:23:55] <XXCoder> I know it has angle adjust
[21:24:20] <furrywolf> depends on your engine. if the computer entirely controls the timing and the dist just gets it to the right spark plug, not very. if the dist is controlling the timing, very.
[21:24:33] <furrywolf> one degree of rotation will make a noticable difference in performance.
[21:24:59] <furrywolf> and if you put it back together with the gear off a tooth, it'll really not work. :P
[21:25:42] <XXCoder> wonder how much shiop it would be
[21:25:46] <XXCoder> *shop cost
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[21:26:09] <furrywolf> unless you've specifically diagnosed a problem with it, I don't think your symptoms sound like a distributor issue.
[21:26:27] <furrywolf> are you getting misfires that increase with cylinder pressure?
[21:26:44] <XXCoder> when do cylinder pressure increase?
[21:27:08] <jthornton> zeeshan|2, something like that
[21:28:04] <furrywolf> that page you pasted seems to be a whole bunch of discussions mashed together into a nonsensical format.
[21:28:14] <XXCoder> yeah
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[21:28:28] <XXCoder> lot people said it worked fine when dist was swapped
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[21:29:30] <furrywolf> I'm not going to read all of it to try to find relevant discussions. :P
[21:29:52] <furrywolf> first question... are you getting misfires?
[21:29:58] <XXCoder> when warm yeah
[21:30:11] <XXCoder> upper rpm when warm feels weaker too
[21:30:18] <zeeshan|2> new pl ugs?
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[21:30:51] <furrywolf> the video starts with "accelerating or climbing a hill"... gets worse with cylinder pressure. :P
[21:31:17] <XXCoder> hmm been a while since van had to go up steep hill
[21:31:33] <XXCoder> but yeah bit weak, expecially when it had old spark plugs
[21:32:03] <zeeshan|2> why dowel pin
[21:32:06] <zeeshan|2> why not 123 block!
[21:32:08] <zeeshan|2> (jt)
[21:32:08] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/spark01-large.jpg I took that a while ago to show what a misfire looks like.
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[21:32:30] <XXCoder> nice
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[21:33:56] <furrywolf> do you have the cracks shown in the video?
[21:34:19] <XXCoder> new dist cap, didnt look for it on old one. it dont have post like that though
[21:34:28] <XXCoder> mines older so soleoid is seperate
[21:34:29] <furrywolf> gah! never, ever do what he's doing. don't crank it with the cap off. that WILL ruin the dist or coil.
[21:34:52] <XXCoder> yeah arch said same. didnt plan to :)
[21:35:03] <XXCoder> (well I planned to till arch told same)
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[21:35:05] <zeeshan|2> do it
[21:35:08] <furrywolf> and he's wasting customer's money by replacing the whole dist for a bad ignition coil.
[21:35:12] <zeeshan|2> y ou can see SPARKS!!
[21:35:26] <XXCoder> that year coil is built in dist cap
[21:35:28] <XXCoder> cant be seperate
[21:35:37] <XXCoder> mines earlier so seperate
[21:36:39] <furrywolf> if you really want to check for misfires, get out an oscilloscope and look at the spark waveform...
[21:36:58] <furrywolf> LOL! the video says "you shouldn't throw parts at the vehicle hoping it will fix it". you should heed that part of it. :P
[21:36:59] <XXCoder> yeah unfortunatly dont own one
[21:37:06] <zeeshan|2> jthornton: i never did "machine -> touch off to fixture"
[21:37:08] <XXCoder> really?
[21:37:11] <zeeshan|2> i think it's always been touch off to workpiece..
[21:37:20] <XXCoder> interesting since autocaption didnt make that clear
[21:37:28] <furrywolf> yeah, just before the end
[21:37:30] <zeeshan|2> and i see why a dowel pin now. because osmetimes you cant fit a 123 on your work piece..
[21:37:31] <XXCoder> (bad english warning) "check for brown dust uner the distributor cap and rotor. If yes, remove slooted wheel and clean optical sensors. If ok now, replace distributor as can sesnor can not be replaced separate."
[21:37:44] <XXCoder> what does optical sensors look like?>
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[21:37:51] <XXCoder> I might just clean it for now
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[21:37:55] <furrywolf> 6:54
[21:37:58] <XXCoder> see if it gets back agaibn
[21:38:34] <robinsz> sigh ... so, GUI ...
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[21:38:51] <furrywolf> ALL dists develop brown dust. :P
[21:38:53] <robinsz> how do I chnage the label "flood" to "vac clamp"
[21:39:03] <zeeshan|2> robinsz: you know it all i thought :P
[21:39:08] <XXCoder> "you know you wouldnt convict someone of a crime by from clues that.."
[21:39:10] <furrywolf> rob_h: shh, this is #cars, not #linuxcnc. :P
[21:39:15] <furrywolf> robinsz
[21:39:26] <XXCoder> "is hoping that they're quilty but much"..
[21:39:27] <robinsz> not in Axis I don;t ...it's after my time
[21:39:33] <furrywolf> XXCoder: after that
[21:39:43] <XXCoder> "control parks and a vehicle hoping it'll fix"
[21:39:50] <robinsz> TkEMC I understood, in a badly written sort of way
[21:40:01] <XXCoder> "clues that are you into yeah"
[21:40:16] <furrywolf> XXCoder: your captioning sucks.
[21:40:19] <XXCoder> "your evidence lovely to the problem" (ill stop here)
[21:40:27] <XXCoder> tell that to google, furrywolf lol
[21:40:36] <zeeshan|2> it might be easier to use gladevcp or pyvcp
[21:41:05] <zeeshan|2> jt has a pretty involved gui tutorial
[21:41:10] <zeeshan|2> but he doesnt talk about modify axis
[21:41:12] <zeeshan|2> *modifying
[21:41:15] <robinsz> hmm
[21:41:24] <robinsz> I like axis, it has that nice 3d look to it
[21:41:31] <zeeshan|2> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/gui/gui03b.html
[21:41:32] <zeeshan|2> like this one
[21:41:35] <zeeshan|2> i thought this was cool
[21:41:41] <zeeshan|2> (bottom of page shows results)
[21:41:45] <XXCoder> furrywolf: anyway what does optical sensor look like so I can wipe it off. (it has LOT brown dust)
[21:43:09] <robinsz> hmm
[21:43:11] <furrywolf> You know you wouldn't convict someone of a crime by throwing clues at them, just hoping that they're guilty. Likewise you shouldn't throw parts at a vehicle, hoping that it will fix it. Take the clues that are given to you, gather your evidence, and let it lead you to the problem."
[21:43:17] <robinsz> not as nice as axis
[21:43:35] <XXCoder> much more understandable. thanks.
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[21:44:42] <robinsz> its just that flood coolant isn;t such a useful button on a router
[21:45:00] <robinsz> and vac clamp, mister and dust extract are kinda useful
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[21:45:52] <robinsz> speaking of which, I bought a nice blower on eBay ... and then a week later found an even nicer one
[21:46:06] <furrywolf> an oscilloscope is really handy for, as the video describes it, gathering evidence.
[21:46:20] <robinsz> so I'll be selling one on if anyone wants a decent side channel blower for vacuum clamping
[21:46:23] <XXCoder> yeah
[21:46:33] <XXCoder> cant find any information on optical sensor
[21:47:13] <zeeshan|2> robinsz: im looking through the source
[21:47:28] <furrywolf> if you had a 'scope, you could look at the output of the sensor. :P
[21:47:30] <zeeshan|2> to the best of my knowledge, youll need to change the source code to do what you're doing
[21:47:53] <zeeshan|2> https://github.com/jepler/linuxcnc-mirror/blob/master/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl
[21:47:57] <zeeshan|2> line 2454
[21:47:59] <robinsz> I got a 7.5hp and a 10hp ... I think I'll sell the 7.5hp
[21:48:15] <robinsz> zeeshan|2, looking.
[21:48:21] <zeeshan|2> that might not be the exact line
[21:48:33] <zeeshan|2> but that's the source code where you can change the text around
[21:48:36] <furrywolf> sadly, I suspect many mechanics wouldn't know what to do with a 'scope...
[21:49:24] <furrywolf> also, people claiming a hot distributor means it's bad are full of crap... the dist is stuck in an engine at 200 degrees being exposed to oil of probably 250 degrees... it's going to get hot! lol
[21:49:50] <zeeshan|2> i found it!
[21:49:55] <zeeshan|2> same page,
[21:50:01] <zeeshan|2> line 1341
[21:50:09] <XXCoder> furrywolf: indeed
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[21:50:27] <XXCoder> quests bad dist apparently change something just enough when hot to get worse
[21:50:40] <zeeshan|2> setup_widget_accel $_tabs_manual.flood [_ Flood] => setup_widget_accel $_tabs_manual.flood [_ VacClamp]
[21:50:41] <furrywolf> you know why we have pressurized cooling systems? because the coolant gets over the 212 degree boiling temperature of water at atmosphering pressure.
[21:50:47] <zeeshan|2> i dont know the syntax for putting a space there :P
[21:50:55] <furrywolf> most modern vehicles don't even open the thermostat until 190 degrees...
[21:51:16] <XXCoder> dunno when my van does but it does take a while
[21:51:18] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: you're missing oiut on the flea market sALES!
[21:51:31] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: it's sunday.
[21:51:33] <robinsz> zeeshan|2, yep. dead easy from that, thnaks
[21:51:40] <zeeshan|2> np
[21:52:24] <furrywolf> and yet you see several posts along the lines of "it was so hot I could barely hold it so I knew it was bad"...
[21:52:40] <XXCoder> hmm mine dont get that hot
[21:52:53] <XXCoder> hot sure but not barely hold level
[21:53:21] <furrywolf> on some vehicles, you can check for bearing issues by pouring motor oil down the dist... it works well on subarus, for example... but if you have an optical pickup it might foul it.
[21:53:38] <XXCoder> same time dunno if they removed dist cover
[21:53:39] <furrywolf> subarus are magnetic
[21:53:41] <XXCoder> mine has it
[21:54:04] <XXCoder> yeah cant figure where sensor is located
[21:54:09] <furrywolf> without a 'scope you can't really check for a marginal signal from the cam position sensor...
[21:54:20] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: add a resistor?
[21:54:26] <SpeedEvil> but scopes are awesome.
[21:54:30] <SpeedEvil> Everyone should have two.
[21:54:52] <furrywolf> I could check, but I'd have to get my other laptop, and it's 3pm and I still haven't had breakfast, since you people stopped me from going shopping... :P
[21:54:54] <XXCoder> first result
http://www.scope-electric.com/ LOL
[21:55:15] <furrywolf> I have two that work! :P
[21:55:35] <robinsz> zeeshan|2, what I always wanted to do and never had time was create a panel that loaded all its button layout from an XML file, and then create some kinda "panel designer tool" that woudl let you drag and drop stuff, and squirt out an XML file as the result
[21:55:51] <XXCoder> scope has a full name?
[21:55:55] <robinsz> yes
[21:55:59] <furrywolf> a tektronix tds-210 and a tektronix 465b... I also have an ultra-cute tek portable battery-powered scope... that released the magic smoke and has been sitting in pieces on top of one of my speakers for a couple years now.
[21:56:00] <XXCoder> because im getting mostly guns result lol
[21:56:01] <robinsz> we call it "brian"
[21:56:03] <furrywolf> oscilloscope
[21:56:05] <zeeshan|2> i think gladevcp lets you do it
[21:56:29] <robinsz> really?
[21:56:32] <furrywolf> robinsz: they have one of those, it's called glade. :)
[21:56:47] <robinsz> theres a design tool for it?
[21:57:09] <robinsz> oh, wait, you mean just regular glade
[21:57:40] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Pocket-Portable-Digital-Oscilloscope-With-2-8-Color-TFT-LCD-USB-Charge-Cloth-bag-Build-in/32268736135.html
[21:57:45] <robinsz> anyway, I can bend axis to my will, no worries, easy now I know where to look
[21:57:58] <robinsz> ick ... digital scope
[21:58:00] <robinsz> ick
[21:58:01] <robinsz> ick
[21:58:03] <robinsz> ick
[21:58:09] <furrywolf> https://richardsears.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/tektronix-214-miniature-storage-oscilloscope/ I really need to fix my one of those.
[21:58:26] <furrywolf> robinsz: I have both a tds-210, which is digital, and a 465b, which is analog... digital offers a lot of benefits...
[21:59:09] <robinsz> I have both, im not really convinced of the benefits of digital ... except maybe real slow waveforms
[22:00:16] <zeeshan|2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwSoNfCYco
[22:00:18] <zeeshan|2> poor bulb
[22:00:27] <zeeshan|2> theres my question answered
[22:00:27] <furrywolf> I can save waveforms for comparrison, freeze indefinitely (unlike a storage 'scope that washes out), scale and move after triggering, have a negative delay time (show me what the waveform was BEFORE triggering), etc, etc...
[22:00:32] <zeeshan|2> can you use pwm through a ssr :P
[22:00:43] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: 'no'
[22:00:46] <XXCoder> http://www.amazon.com/Signstek-Pocket-Sized-Handheld-Digital-Oscilloscope/dp/B00DRUWPM6
[22:00:48] <zeeshan|2> SpeedEvil:
[22:00:52] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: details.
[22:00:52] <zeeshan|2> enough videos show you can
[22:00:57] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: what are you trying to do.
[22:01:00] <SpeedEvil> Sometimes it's yes
[22:01:06] <zeeshan|2> pulse width modulate a solenoid
[22:01:07] <zeeshan|2> through a ssr
[22:01:18] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: AC?
[22:01:21] <zeeshan|2> dc
[22:01:31] <zeeshan|2> 24vdc solenoid contact side
[22:01:36] <robinsz> I just hate mine, it sucks ass like a really sucky ass thing
[22:01:37] <zeeshan|2> 5v input side
[22:01:39] <furrywolf> robinsz: I have a lot of experience using both, and there are definitely advantages to digital. and mine doesn't even have all the high-end features.
[22:01:41] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: It may work, with adequate snubbing or diodes
[22:01:50] <robinsz> perhaps I just got a crap one
[22:01:54] <zeeshan|2> ssr has built in flyback
[22:01:56] <zeeshan|2> i believe
[22:01:56] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: you at least need a diode across the terminals of the solenoid
[22:02:04] <furrywolf> there's also advantages to analog... I've developed a very good feel for what noise looks like, that would be invisible on a cheap digital 'scope.
[22:02:21] <robinsz> its completely useless for analogue thats for certain
[22:02:42] <zeeshan|2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL2Sryi57xA
[22:02:43] <robinsz> yeah, I have a tek 2445B analogue, its gorgeous
[22:02:44] <zeeshan|2> lol
[22:02:49] <furrywolf> the negative trigger delay is a quite cool feature... show me a 1us sweep 10us before triggering. :P
[22:02:50] <zeeshan|2> this guy is controlling a motor using pwm
[22:02:51] <zeeshan|2> through ssr
[22:03:02] <robinsz> my digital is a HP 5460 4ch ... it sucks ass
[22:03:43] <zeeshan|2> SpeedEvil: did you see the link to the ssr i will be using
[22:03:45] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: 'no' is the simple answer that is reliable.
[22:03:55] <zeeshan|2> it only needs to last a couple months
[22:03:57] <zeeshan|2> maybe 2.
[22:03:58] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: 'yes' requires considerably more in-depth research to see if it may work
[22:04:25] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: For a 24V solenoid, with a 24V rated DC SSR, and a diode across the solenoid - there are no real concerns about unreliability.
[22:04:30] <SpeedEvil> It will either work or not.
[22:04:36] <furrywolf> my analog is the tek 465b, the digital the tek tds-210... I've been quite happy with it. my analog has sat in storage gathering dust for a while now.
[22:04:39] <SpeedEvil> I would not PWM at more than ~50Hz
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[22:04:54] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I have the 475b - it's great
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[22:04:58] <zeeshan|2> im only doing max 5hz
[22:05:09] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: that should be fine
[22:05:23] <robinsz> Im thinking of building a nice big PCM DC servo drive
[22:05:36] <robinsz> +-10 in = +- 160V out
[22:05:44] <SpeedEvil> robinsz: amps?
[22:05:50] <zeeshan|2> SpeedEvil: now that im on the subject im curious about something
[22:05:51] <robinsz> plenty
[22:05:53] <zeeshan|2> with a diode, where does the energy go
[22:05:59] <SpeedEvil> I need to get my AC variac built
[22:06:07] <zeeshan|2> in the case of a varistor, it just heats up
[22:06:11] <zeeshan|2> what about diode
[22:06:17] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: It continues to circulate in the inductor, slowly decaying
[22:06:24] <furrywolf> that hp is a lot older than mine... mine has an lcd and weighs just a couple pounds... they could have improved things since then. :)
[22:06:30] <SpeedEvil> ~1V across the inductor, and ~normal operating voltage across the coil
[22:06:33] <robinsz> SpeedEvil, I design/build audio amps as a day job, including Class D output stages, its pretty much the same thing
[22:06:36] <SpeedEvil> (though its resistance)
[22:06:37] <zeeshan|2> so resistance of wire dissipates it?
[22:06:40] <SpeedEvil> robinsz: yeah
[22:06:53] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: For an ideal diode, yes
[22:06:58] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[22:06:58] <furrywolf> although apparantly your 'scope has tetris built-in, which is a definite feature.
[22:07:08] <zeeshan|2> wouldnt be faster to dissipate through a varistor?
[22:07:11] <robinsz> SpeedEvil, my by PSU is around the 12kw continous mark, so a servo drive wont be hard
[22:07:16] <zeeshan|2> so the solenoid doesn't stay on longer than it should be
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[22:07:38] <furrywolf> robinsz:
http://www.eeggs.com/items/39244.html is that the 'scope you have?
[22:07:56] <SpeedEvil> robinsz: Fun.
[22:08:38] <SpeedEvil> robinsz: I have plans for a modular thingy. First step is a 13A/240V PFC stage
[22:09:03] <robinsz> PFC up to 4kw is easy
[22:09:05] <SpeedEvil> Then other fun including welders and induction forges and ...
[22:09:40] <robinsz> beyond 4kw is gets a bit harder
[22:09:55] <zeeshan|2> whats pfc
[22:10:00] <SpeedEvil> power factor correctio
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[22:10:18] <robinsz> basically sucking power over the whole cycle, not just the peak
[22:10:19] <zeeshan|2> o u're talking about ac
[22:10:19] <SpeedEvil> Basically a boost converter to ~380V or so
[22:10:25] <furrywolf> power factor correction... trying to emulate a resistive load, rather than the simple and quick solution of chopping off the tops of the sine wave and ignoring the rest.
[22:10:41] <zeeshan|2> its been a while since the electrical course
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[22:10:53] <zeeshan|2> but something about capacitance and inductance doing nothing
[22:10:59] <zeeshan|2> and resistance doing something
[22:10:59] <zeeshan|2> :p
[22:11:06] <robinsz> well kinda
[22:11:33] <robinsz> in a standard SMPS, the input rectifiers only pull current at the peak of the cycle
[22:11:36] <furrywolf> robinsz seems to be ignoring me, and people are no longer asking car questions, so I'm going to bbl and get food.
[22:11:49] <XXCoder> furrywolf: have fun
[22:11:52] <SpeedEvil> :P)
[22:12:03] <robinsz> so the current waveform looks like a spiky thing
[22:12:17] <robinsz> furrywolf, no, I have the 4ch version, but the egg may work
[22:12:57] <zeeshan|2> nmever looked at pf from an electronics sense
[22:13:02] <zeeshan|2> dealt with it from a distribution sense
[22:13:17] <robinsz> PFC will basically pull current over the whole cycle, which is nicer to the distro
[22:13:22] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/spark01-large.jpg one of the simpler features of a digital 'scope... I took that photo displaying a saved waveform. I should get the gpib board so I can send them straight the computer. :)
[22:13:24] <zeeshan|2> yes
[22:13:33] <robinsz> its a huge problem with modern equipment
[22:13:38] <furrywolf> the left spark is good, the right is a misfire.
[22:13:43] <robinsz> offices for example
[22:14:07] <robinsz> imagine 1000 pc's and other SMPS driven bits of kit in an office block
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[22:14:24] <robinsz> can you imagine what the total current draw looks like?
[22:14:33] <zeeshan|2> yea
[22:14:38] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepspark02.jpg and that's from another vehicle. it should NOT look like that. :P
[22:14:38] <zeeshan|2> but when you have motors and stuff
[22:14:44] <zeeshan|2> inefficient motors that is
[22:14:48] <XXCoder> thats insane
[22:14:48] <zeeshan|2> its kinda hard to avoid it
[22:14:52] <zeeshan|2> we sold a lot of PFC
[22:14:54] <robinsz> yeah, thats the other sort of PFC
[22:14:57] <zeeshan|2> which saved the customer tons
[22:15:06] <robinsz> adding caps to inductive loads
[22:15:20] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepspark03.jpg needless to say, that vehicle didn't run well
[22:15:28] <robinsz> its called the same thing, but is different
[22:15:34] <robinsz> thats real PFC
[22:15:49] <robinsz> the modern thing is more "harmonic current reduction"
[22:15:53] <furrywolf> hrmm, if zee is too young to have ever seen a dist, I'm probably the only one here who can interpret that waveform. lol
[22:16:15] <Tom_itx> i never used a scope on one
[22:16:34] <XXCoder> furrywolf: would small digital scope work?
[22:16:42] <zeeshan|2> hush furrywolf
[22:16:45] <zeeshan|2> i know spark profile
[22:16:53] <zeeshan|2> i dunno what youre posting there
[22:16:57] <zeeshan|2> but im familiar with this:
[22:16:57] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: check out the spark profile I just pasted. :P
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[22:17:22] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepspark01.jpg that's the same vehicle when it was working
[22:17:32] <furrywolf> the other two images are when I was able to catch it fucking up
[22:17:42] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/10f1Rwi.png
[22:17:55] <SpeedEvil> By 'jeep' furrywolf does not mean a modern one :)
[22:18:01] <furrywolf> I'm measuring the negative side of the coil primary
[22:18:24] <Tom_itx> willies jeep?
[22:18:27] <Tom_itx> :D
[22:18:31] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: these images are from a jeep with electronic ignition
[22:18:34] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/xeNX9RS.png
[22:18:35] <zeeshan|2> more
[22:18:39] <XXCoder> Thing ;)
[22:18:49] * zeeshan|2 doesnt understand your jeep
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[22:19:11] <zeeshan|2> what was going on there furrywolf?
[22:19:31] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: failure in the electronic module... it'd go to spark, then immediately ground the coil again.
[22:19:49] <zeeshan|2> nice
[22:20:16] <furrywolf> sometimes it'd work perfectly, sometimes it'd try several times before giving a late, weak spark, sometimes it'd never actually spark...
[22:20:45] <zeeshan|2> i dont own a scope
[22:20:49] <zeeshan|2> but it'd love to own one for this reason
[22:20:50] <furrywolf> the solution was to rip out the stock ignition system and swap to a chevy hei system. :)
[22:20:54] <zeeshan|2> to verify it's sparking correctly
[22:20:57] <zeeshan|2> especially on the rx7
[22:21:12] <XXCoder> I want to have a scope too but dunno
[22:21:28] <furrywolf> there's certain chevy dists that, with minor modifications, will fit certain jeep engines.
[22:21:29] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: its pretty cool man
[22:21:37] <zeeshan|2> you can see the profile and get an idea of whats wrong
[22:21:46] <furrywolf> and let you replace the stock ugly ignition system with an all-in-one hei system.
[22:22:08] <zeeshan|2> you can tell distinctintly if your spark plug gap is wrong or if it is fouled
[22:22:26] <zeeshan|2> or if you're jumping spark in the ignition gable
[22:22:45] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: die distributors!!
[22:22:47] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2:
http://fw.bushytails.net/spark01-large.jpg the spark waveform from my subaru looks much more like the ideal ones you pasted. :P
[22:23:03] <furrywolf> (the one on the left, not the misfire on the right)
[22:23:28] <zeeshan|2> its uposide down :D
[22:23:48] * furrywolf swaps the wires
[22:23:52] <zeeshan|2> haha
[22:24:03] <zeeshan|2> its crazy how well thast shows it..
[22:24:08] <zeeshan|2> dude can you tell me how you had that hooekd up?
[22:24:13] <zeeshan|2> what kind of probes were you using
[22:24:16] <furrywolf> I'm measuring the primary, not the secondary, but transformers being transformers, they're very very similar. :P
[22:24:30] <zeeshan|2> would i need a ct or something
[22:25:00] <furrywolf> I used a 100:1 (or so - I just pulled resistors out of the pile) divider.
[22:25:01] <furrywolf> and a 10x probe
[22:25:16] <furrywolf> I'm measuring the primary, not the secondary.
[22:25:18] <zeeshan|2> so you pierced the wire?
[22:25:22] <furrywolf> you rarely need to actually measure the secondary
[22:25:23] <zeeshan|2> to grab the signal?
[22:25:33] <furrywolf> no, just alligator clips on the coil.
[22:25:41] <zeeshan|2> well you measure the secondary
[22:25:45] <zeeshan|2> to see if there's shorts within the coil
[22:25:51] <furrywolf> the primary stays under 500V, you can just use normal measurement methods...
[22:26:10] <furrywolf> well, stays around 500V, I think I saw 650 once...
[22:26:52] <furrywolf> it's a transformer... the secondary and primary are very interrelated.
[22:27:06] <furrywolf> anything you do to the secondary shows up on the primary
[22:27:24] <SpeedEvil> Minus DC hopefully
[22:27:30] <zeeshan|2> well the fsm shows
[22:27:32] <zeeshan|2> doing it on both
[22:27:35] <zeeshan|2> and shows subtle differences
[22:27:53] <furrywolf> what differences does it show?
[22:28:12] <furrywolf> because I've yet to misdiagnose anything looking only at the primary, so they can't be important differences. :)
[22:28:50] * zeeshan|2 looks
[22:28:58] <zeeshan|2> you look at it yourself!
[22:29:19] <furrywolf> lol
[22:30:19] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/FV9i1Tf.png
[22:30:25] <zeeshan|2> dwell is different
[22:30:38] <zeeshan|2> damping section is diff
[22:30:40] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/truckspark01.jpg and then there's THAT truck... that's what happens to a ford when someone forgets to hook up the little filter capacitor. (condensor)
[22:30:41] <zeeshan|2> (lol @ typo)
[22:31:04] <zeeshan|2> that second peak is different too
[22:32:03] <furrywolf> the important part is the shape, which is the same
[22:32:21] <zeeshan|2> well these guys are saying something about
[22:32:33] <zeeshan|2> "no waves in wave damping section -- cause of problem layer short in ign coil"
[22:33:06] <furrywolf> yes... and note the damping section is more visible on the primary. :)
[22:33:16] <zeeshan|2> its more visible on the secondary!
[22:33:22] <zeeshan|2> its a long sweeping wave
[22:33:28] <zeeshan|2> vs a dinky little blip
[22:34:04] <furrywolf> the long sweep is irrelevant... it's the quick oscillations at the start of it that show the lc system resonates nicely.
[22:34:40] * zeeshan|2 needs a usb scope
[22:34:45] <zeeshan|2> for on line monitoring ALL the time!!
[22:35:06] <furrywolf> also, you're forgetting the most important factor... primary is easier to measure. :P
[22:35:11] <furrywolf> the waveform you can measure is far more useful than the one you can't. :P
[22:35:23] <zeeshan|2> well i'd think you could use a ct
[22:35:27] <zeeshan|2> to get to your desired level
[22:35:57] <zeeshan|2> but i agree with you :P
[22:36:03] <zeeshan|2> it's more useful to see if it's misfiring
[22:36:08] <zeeshan|2> or there's some issue with the gap
[22:36:11] <furrywolf> actually, simply sticking a wire next to your king lead, with a resistor to ground, will get you pretty close...
[22:36:17] <zeeshan|2> or a spark is jumping, which you can see in both
[22:36:41] <furrywolf> you use the jacket of the wire to capactively couple the spark voltage
[22:37:30] <zeeshan|2> you know one th ing that bothers me a lot about engine harnesses?
[22:37:39] <furrywolf> you can't see a jumping spark easily... if it's a healthy spark, it looks like a healthy spark, whether it happened to be at the spark plug, or from the wire to something it rubbed on...
[22:37:43] <zeeshan|2> almost all the ones i've seen run the ignition wires that fire the coil
[22:37:49] <zeeshan|2> right next to crank, cam etc sensor wires
[22:37:59] <zeeshan|2> i feel like that noise get transfered into em
[22:38:11] <zeeshan|2> maybe they have filtering built into the ecu so it doesnt matter
[22:38:13] <zeeshan|2> shrug
[22:38:26] <furrywolf> they seem to work, so... :P
[22:38:51] * zeeshan|2 is redoing his engine harness currently, so this was a concern :P
[22:39:04] <furrywolf> it's only a few hundred volts, not a few dozen kv like the secondary. heh.
[22:39:39] <furrywolf> I do have a 40kv probe if I wanted to accurately measure a secondary, but I've never needed to.
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[22:40:09] <zeeshan|2> what bandwidth scope would be adequate for this kind of work?
[22:40:52] <furrywolf> http://en-us.fluke.com/products/all-accessories/fluke-80k-40.html it's designed for a multimeter for voltage measurements, but at the low frequency of an ignition system, it should work fine on a 'scope.
[22:41:04] <furrywolf> anything. ignition isn't that high of frequency.
[22:41:16] <zeeshan|2> wel;l general car work
[22:41:19] <zeeshan|2> and maybe cnc
[22:41:24] <zeeshan|2> actually no
[22:41:30] <zeeshan|2> i take that back, the scope has to be dedicated to the car
[22:42:20] <zeeshan|2> i think the most amount of bandwidth would be for say a cranksensor
[22:42:35] <furrywolf> from a quick glance at one of my 'scope images, each damping ripple is around 200us, so 5khz would let you see them... your peaks would be rounded of course, but even an audio-only 'scope would show plenty.
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[22:42:52] <malcom2073> Why don't you just get an ECU that tells you what you need, rather than scoping on top of yours?
[22:43:06] <zeeshan|2> malcom2073: you don't want to start from scratch
[22:43:12] <furrywolf> malcom2073: did you know that sometimes people fix unmodified, factory vehicles?
[22:43:13] <malcom2073> zeeshan|2: Not from scratch
[22:43:15] <zeeshan|2> you wanna retain all the factory tune for things like part throttle etc.
[22:43:18] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Nonsense!
[22:43:26] <zeeshan|2> you only wanna modify what you need
[22:43:29] <zeeshan|2> i've done a custom ecu before
[22:43:31] <malcom2073> furrywolf: At the first sign of trouble, you replace all the things!
[22:43:34] <zeeshan|2> like haltech e6x and aem ems
[22:44:02] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2:
http://fw.bushytails.net/ckscasworking.jpg there's a jeep crank and cam sensor... displayed at 50ms/div. :P
[22:44:20] <zeeshan|2> so cool
[22:44:20] <zeeshan|2> :D
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[22:45:02] <furrywolf> there's no particularly high frequency sensors on a vehicle that I can think of.
[22:45:21] <zeeshan|2> how about injectors
[22:45:27] <zeeshan|2> they're still in the ms range
[22:46:00] <malcom2073> knock sensor?
[22:46:02] <malcom2073> They're audio
[22:46:05] <SpeedEvil> Engines are fundamentally slow
[22:46:13] <zeeshan|2> malcom2073: still output khz
[22:46:20] <malcom2073> yeah, reasonably slow
[22:46:31] <furrywolf> hrmm, when I took that image, the cam sensor was 6.253hz... cam is one cycle per two engine rotations, so engine was double that... 750.36rpm. spot on. :)
[22:46:38] <SpeedEvil> I suspect noise at ~50khz may be a thing if you want to check for bearing wear
[22:46:57] <SpeedEvil> Oooh.
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[22:47:18] * SpeedEvil imagines passively imaging the operating engine in generated ultrasound with lots of receivers.
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[22:47:28] <SpeedEvil> 'computationally hard'
[22:47:30] <SpeedEvil> fun though
[22:47:38] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: that's the type of thing andy would like.
[22:47:49] <zeeshan|2> what?
[22:47:56] <zeeshan|2> the screw driver and your ear isn't good enough now?
[22:47:56] <zeeshan|2> :D
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[22:48:02] <SpeedEvil> I wonder if you could hear the rings going up and down
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[22:48:33] <furrywolf> me? no, I can't. unless it's the first time cranking a really rusty engine. I have heard the rings then. :P
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[22:50:00] <malcom2073> That reminds me, I need to start my enigne, been like 3 months
[22:50:05] <furrywolf> lol
[22:50:19] <furrywolf> I currently have two vehicles I just start every couple weeks... need to work on them.
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[22:51:11] <furrywolf> subaru needs an exhaust, a bit more wiring (didn't hook up the fan relays and the ecu is pissed off), and a lot of buttoning-up projects, like securing wires and hoses... truck needs spark plugs, an axle oil seal, and a new top.
[22:51:50] <furrywolf> there's a whole lot of little finishing steps that have to be done to make an engine swap nice.
[22:52:04] <furrywolf> not having your wires and hoses draped over things is one of them. :)
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[22:52:28] <furrywolf> also, a complete exhaust system is handy too.
[22:52:57] <furrywolf> I got the cats in, since I was able to make them fit by cutting and rewelding sections of the stock pipe, but everything past the cats needs to be bent, and I don't have a tube bender.
[22:53:51] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: that's just lazy talk.
[22:54:02] <SpeedEvil> slice up 15 degree wedges of pipe, and go to town
[22:54:12] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/coildrivers01.jpg speaking of ecus... that was one of the weirdest symptoms I had to troubleshoot. someone brought me a car saying a mechanic diagnosed it as having jumped time.
[22:54:24] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Was it a delorian?
[22:54:54] <furrywolf> sure 'nuff, you cranked it, and it fired the wrong cylinders, shooting flames out the intake, and dieing.
[22:55:28] <furrywolf> I killed ecu power and cranked it over, and the compression sounded perfect - obviously nothing mechanically wrong. the shop was obviously incompetent.
[22:55:59] <SpeedEvil> Swapped over leads in some form, or the wrong ECU fitted?
[22:56:04] <furrywolf> the solder had melted and let the transistors slide into the pads next to them, causing each one to also spark the cylinders it was shorted to.
[22:56:05] <Jymmm> New taxi service
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/6/14/raccoon_on_top_of_gator_ocala_florida.html
[22:56:09] <SpeedEvil> hah
[22:56:11] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: look at the picture
[22:56:26] <SpeedEvil> awesome
[22:56:28] <zeeshan|2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGJZ6kKzLus
[22:56:58] <zeeshan|2> is this "knock box" just an audio amplifier
[22:57:18] <furrywolf> new ECU (which I couldn't do - had to be sent off to a shop on the east coast) and it ran great.
[22:57:18] <furrywolf> ironically, two years later, it broke a timing chain guide and jumped time. :P
[22:57:27] <zeeshan|2> i've been attaching a metal tube crushed on one end with a hole that mounts it to the block
[22:57:40] <zeeshan|2> then the tube goes a plastic tube that connects to my ear muffs
[22:57:53] <zeeshan|2> it'd b e nice to listen to the knock sensor during tuning though!
[22:57:57] <furrywolf> and then the pistons hit the valves and the block got filled with chunks of piston and the engine locked solid. and then it got a new engine.
[22:59:19] <furrywolf> he brought it back to me, since I fixed it the time before... this time it did not mechanically sound healthy. rotating a few degrees then stoping with a clunk was the first sign.
[22:59:30] <malcom2073> hah
[22:59:34] <furrywolf> popped the oil cap off, discovered the timing chain didn't move when the engine turned...
[22:59:41] <SpeedEvil> that's not a good sign.
[23:00:02] <furrywolf> listened hard, and realized the clunk was the sound of a piston hitting a valve.
[23:00:17] <furrywolf> dropped the pan, it was full of chunks... and a broken timing chain guide.
[23:00:22] <SpeedEvil> On the topic of rides with issues:
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/6/14/raccoon_on_top_of_gator_ocala_florida/_jcr_content/contentpar/articleBody/image.img.jpg/1434303250149.jpg
[23:00:30] <SpeedEvil> err
[23:00:39] <SpeedEvil> wrong channnel
[23:00:41] <furrywolf> is that the same thing jymm just pasted?
[23:00:42] * SpeedEvil is not awake.
[23:00:42] <furrywolf> lol
[23:00:57] <SpeedEvil> no, Jymmm posted it, I thought it was in another channel
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[23:01:56] <furrywolf> in order to get the new ecu, we had to mail the old ecu, the security module, and the ignition key off to a company on the east coast.
[23:01:57] <furrywolf> I hate BMWs.
[23:02:36] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: this is why I argue all ECUs should be one open-source module.
[23:02:47] <zeeshan|2> grrrr
[23:02:49] <zeeshan|2> answer me!!
[23:02:50] <zeeshan|2> :P
[23:03:04] <furrywolf> let's make something simple like replacing a component into something that requires specialist equipment!
[23:03:04] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: 42
[23:03:04] <XXCoder> furrywolf: why need key too
[23:03:06] <furrywolf> now what was the question?
[23:03:08] <zeeshan|2> lol
[23:03:10] <furrywolf> XXCoder: antitheft
[23:03:15] <zeeshan|2> i want to listen into my knock sensors
[23:03:24] <zeeshan|2> what to do! :P
[23:03:34] <zeeshan|2> i think it'll be more sensitive than my mechanical approach
[23:03:39] <furrywolf> so connect them to a microphone preamp and any audio device
[23:03:41] <SpeedEvil> The antiknock sensorsa re just pezio sensors I thought
[23:03:46] <zeeshan|2> they are SpeedEvil
[23:03:55] <zeeshan|2> but i feel like it'll need some filtering
[23:03:59] <zeeshan|2> not as simple as plug and play
[23:04:02] <SpeedEvil> not if you have a scope
[23:04:11] <SpeedEvil> you filter it by tyrning the knobs
[23:04:15] <zeeshan|2> SpeedEvil: when you're tuning
[23:04:19] <zeeshan|2> you're looking at a 0923312832 things
[23:04:20] <furrywolf> he wants to LISTEN.
[23:04:22] <furrywolf> not see.
[23:04:26] <zeeshan|2> you dont need an additional thing to see
[23:04:27] <SpeedEvil> Oh - right.
[23:04:30] <zeeshan|2> i'm watching 2 widebands
[23:04:34] <SpeedEvil> fair enogh
[23:04:37] <zeeshan|2> watching rpm
[23:04:51] <SpeedEvil> I would read the scope, and see what it told me about the antiknock, then proceed to develop something
[23:04:52] <SpeedEvil> but...
[23:05:04] <furrywolf> I'd imagine any device that can accept input from a piezo microphone and drive a speaker will do it.
[23:05:14] <SpeedEvil> plausible
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[23:05:45] <furrywolf> which includes everything from kids toys to karoke boxes to professional audio gear...
[23:06:18] <furrywolf> professional audio gear would probably give best quality, especially since it's the high frequencies you're after, and they are more likely to have filtering options.
[23:06:57] * SpeedEvil ponders bat detectors.
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[23:08:13] <zeeshan|2> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/VINTAGE-WHISPER2000-NEW-IN-BOX-Personal-Sound-Amplification-System-/141692536490?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20fd8886aa
[23:08:14] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[23:08:16] <zeeshan|2> this might work!
[23:08:53] <zeeshan|2> http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0353
[23:08:53] <zeeshan|2> lol
[23:08:54] <zeeshan|2> nice
[23:09:00] <zeeshan|2> how random is that
[23:09:07] <zeeshan|2> got a link to that article when finding audio amps
[23:09:09] <zeeshan|2> for mechanics
[23:09:34] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: its hard to figure out the exact frequency range
[23:09:40] <zeeshan|2> but im getting around 4-12kHz
[23:09:44] <zeeshan|2> from the estimating formulas
[23:11:18] <furrywolf> dunno. I've never played with knock sensors.
[23:11:26] <zeeshan|2> cause you work with stock cars!
[23:11:27] <furrywolf> I turn the distributor until it sounds good. :)
[23:11:28] <zeeshan|2> :P
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[23:13:02] <XXCoder> furrywolf: FINALLY found info
[23:13:07] <XXCoder> http://questdriver.com/forums/topic/poor-running-after-warms-up/
[23:13:16] <furrywolf> stock like my sticking an efi engine into a carb body? I don't call that stock. :P
[23:13:19] <XXCoder> unfortunately need to remove dist then cover
[23:13:31] <zeeshan|2> i guess i worded it wrong
[23:13:56] * furrywolf has done multiple efi-into-old-car swaps...
[23:13:57] <zeeshan|2> mods to me is when you need to get involved with remapping the fuel and ignition
[23:14:17] <furrywolf> I've remapped lots of fuel and igition. see, the carb has these screws on the side of it... :P
[23:14:25] <zeeshan|2> haha
[23:14:52] <zeeshan|2> i have th is really old pic of me from like 10 years ago
[23:14:57] <zeeshan|2> i was a hardcore tuner!
[23:15:21] <furrywolf> XXCoder: sounds easy
[23:16:16] <zeeshan|2> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/23u3acx-1.jpg
[23:16:17] <zeeshan|2> haha
[23:16:24] <XXCoder> dont have timing light either
[23:16:32] <furrywolf> hardcore tuner... are those the people with screw-on trunk wings and black rattle canned interior trim? :P
[23:16:42] <zeeshan|2> hahah no
[23:16:42] <zeeshan|2> http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p252/turbozee84/motor1.jpg
[23:16:45] <zeeshan|2> i was tuning this engine
[23:16:57] <zeeshan|2> i rebuilt it to be low compression and went fron sohc to dohc
[23:17:02] <XXCoder> build an entire engine zeeshan|2
[23:17:16] <zeeshan|2> yes
[23:17:23] <zeeshan|2> 'rebuild'!
[23:17:29] <XXCoder> nah
[23:17:34] <XXCoder> build all new one, I dare ya
[23:17:40] <XXCoder> no parts buying
[23:17:43] <zeeshan|2> no
[23:17:46] <XXCoder> just mill
[23:17:50] <SpeedEvil> I've built an enine from scratch.
[23:17:50] <zeeshan|2> cause itll end up with the fate of a rotary
[23:17:50] <zeeshan|2> hahaha
[23:17:55] <SpeedEvil> It was however a toy stirling engine
[23:17:56] <furrywolf> the last weird swap I did was on someone else's subaru... fitting a ford distributor to a subaru engine that was meant to have coil packs.
[23:17:56] <furrywolf> it involves lots of grinding.
[23:18:06] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: always wanted a stirling :(
[23:18:07] <zeeshan|2> jeez
[23:18:10] <zeeshan|2> why would you get rid of coil packs
[23:18:15] <zeeshan|2> and put a goddamn distributor on there
[23:18:20] <zeeshan|2> what kind of backwards engineering is that
[23:18:21] <furrywolf> because he was putting a carb on an engine meant for efi.
[23:18:25] <zeeshan|2> wtf
[23:18:32] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9UKu-AP02k
[23:18:49] <zeeshan|2> SpeedEvil: are you barumman
[23:18:51] <SpeedEvil> no
[23:18:58] <zeeshan|2> then we dont believe yu
[23:18:59] <zeeshan|2> :D
[23:19:10] <furrywolf> when I put a new engine in my subaru, my solution was to switch the car to efi... his solution was to switch the engine to carb. :P
[23:19:17] <zeeshan|2> hahah
[23:19:36] <furrywolf> mine runs better. :P
[23:20:12] <furrywolf> also, he never got an air filter on it... been driving it a couple years now with no air filter... including on the beach.
[23:20:16] <XXCoder> timing light is pretty expensive
[23:20:20] <furrywolf> because there was no room for one under the hood
[23:20:24] <XXCoder> ow!
[23:20:25] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: 40 bux
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[23:20:41] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: considering I may use it only once.
[23:20:46] <zeeshan|2> http://www.harborfreight.com/timing-light-with-advance-40963.html
[23:20:48] <zeeshan|2> 33
[23:20:49] <furrywolf> I used a cone filter on mine. aem dryflow.
[23:20:59] <zeeshan|2> i love the dryflow
[23:21:05] <zeeshan|2> too bad it wont fit on my current setup
[23:21:11] <zeeshan|2> have to use shitty k&n
[23:21:12] <XXCoder> furrywolf: hell even just oilcloth single sheet would work better than no filter
[23:21:19] <furrywolf> hrmm, that I might have a photo of somewhere...
[23:22:00] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: that generator uses stirling?
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[23:22:08] <XXCoder> looks like regular one piston engine
[23:22:12] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: yes
[23:22:24] <XXCoder> so it heats one end or something?
[23:22:26] <SpeedEvil> yes
[23:22:52] <XXCoder> its big enough that force running it probably can make one end massively cold
[23:22:55] <furrywolf> maybe not, can't find one.
[23:23:39] <SpeedEvil> http://www.baxi.co.uk/renewables/combined-heat-and-power/ecogen.htm
[23:23:53] <SpeedEvil> I have that on my ebay list for if one comes up
[23:23:55] <furrywolf> hrmm, I only have an old photo before I mounted it.
[23:23:56] <SpeedEvil> cheap
[23:24:12] <SpeedEvil> It's a natural gas boiler, with a stirling engine in
[23:24:30] <furrywolf> actually, did find a newer one.
[23:24:46] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: nice but it dont list price, means I cant afford it
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[23:25:57] <furrywolf> zee is going to complain about how non-shiny my swap is. :P
[23:28:26] <furrywolf> hrmm, my connection may not be working well enough to upload images.
[23:28:42] <XXCoder> aliexpress timing light 21 bucks
[23:28:49] <furrywolf> 3K/sec.
[23:28:50] <furrywolf> I hate 3G.
[23:28:59] <XXCoder> 35 or more inc shipping lol
[23:29:02] <XXCoder> not worth it
[23:29:14] <furrywolf> harbor freight? yard sales? craigslist?
[23:29:17] <XXCoder> tpo bad I dont have jumper style ablity
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[23:31:32] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: they are moderately expensive
[23:31:35] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: hence cheap
[23:32:17] <SpeedEvil> err
[23:32:28] <SpeedEvil> hence I am looking for cheap ones for some reason
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[23:34:25] <XXCoder> cool
[23:34:35] <XXCoder> one of things I wanted to do is liquidify air
[23:34:41] <XXCoder> furrywolf: good idea checking
[23:35:13] <furrywolf> STILL uploading...
[23:35:31] <XXCoder> https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/tls/5057151288.html
[23:36:36] <XXCoder> I HATE people who list items for $1
[23:36:46] <XXCoder> and list it as $4000 car in it
[23:36:50] <XXCoder> jeez
[23:36:51] <furrywolf> use the flag button.
[23:37:00] <malcom2073> Yeah flag those posts, they'll get removed
[23:37:15] <XXCoder> probated button?
[23:37:33] <XXCoder> ah its flaged when click it
[23:38:28] <SpeedEvil> https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/tls/5074494214.html - I was thinkinng - WTF - that looks like a toy
[23:38:36] <furrywolf> yay, one image uploaded.
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[23:38:57] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2:
http://fw.bushytails.net/subaruswapairfilter01.jpg aem dryflow, complete with sock
[23:40:32] <XXCoder> furrywolf: will this work
http://www.harborfreight.com/xenon-timing-light-3343.html
[23:41:00] <furrywolf> dunno, I can't load pages while uploading images.
[23:41:05] <XXCoder> oh
[23:41:07] <furrywolf> but I can't imagine anything described as a timing light not working.
[23:41:20] <XXCoder> its $20 which is better deal than most
[23:41:33] <furrywolf> my 3g connection is like dialup, but worse. :P
[23:41:35] <XXCoder> cant go anywhere atm
[23:41:48] <malcom2073> XXCoder: Get a $40 one with adjustable timing
[23:41:53] <XXCoder> I used 3g as main connection for couple days. bit slow but works
[23:42:05] <furrywolf> malcom2073: those adjustment are useless.
[23:42:19] <malcom2073> For timing an engine? The static ones are useless
[23:42:30] <malcom2073> Setting base timing on a fuel injected car, or setting actual timing on a not
[23:43:07] <furrywolf> how so? your flywheel or accessory pulley has marks. you line one of them up with the pointer.
[23:43:20] <furrywolf> a line of paint pen can be handy if it's hard to see them
[23:43:51] <furrywolf> I have the 8btdc line silver painted on my subaru, for example...
[23:44:00] <malcom2073> None of the cars I've ever worked on have had them labeled. Usually it's just two marks that you line up at TDC, but to set timing you need the light to offset
[23:44:17] <malcom2073> True you could draw your own, that would solve that
[23:44:50] <furrywolf> I've never worked on a car that didn't have a complete timing scale, usually covering a far wider range than you'd ever set it to, like 60b to 20a...
[23:45:06] <XXCoder> $20 has lots bad reviews
[23:45:12] <XXCoder> most about dimness
[23:45:23] <malcom2073> Most of the cars I've played with have been at the dragstrip, so all old chevy/ford motors
[23:45:29] <furrywolf> so you can see the effects of advance, and tell you where you are if you're way off.
[23:45:33] <XXCoder> one review says it broke after 3 uses
[23:45:34] <XXCoder> jeez
[23:45:42] <furrywolf> yes, the cheap ones are dim. painting the mark helps.
[23:46:02] <furrywolf> I know a ford 302 has a normal timing scale...
[23:46:17] <XXCoder> it has lot of 5 star reviews at end, probably shill reviews
[23:46:18] <malcom2073> Nobody runs factory harmonic dampners though, so you lose that scale
[23:46:39] <furrywolf> XXCoder: that's a review of everything sold at harbor freight. :)
[23:46:52] <XXCoder> yeah yeah but then im looking at percentage
[23:47:03] <XXCoder> its nearly all 1 stars with all few most recent 5 stars
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[23:49:09] <furrywolf> are they sorted by most recent, or by "most helpful" or another weasel way of saying "ones that make us look good first"?
[23:49:09] <furrywolf> malcom2073: a subaru I worked on the other day, because of the combination of swapped parts, had no timing marks whatsoever, anywhere. :)
[23:49:11] <furrywolf> (the one where we stuck a ford distributor into a subaru engine meant for coil packs)
[23:49:16] <malcom2073> Hah
[23:49:17] <malcom2073> Nice
[23:49:27] <malcom2073> Sharpie one in at TDC? :P
[23:49:49] <furrywolf> nah. "turn until sounds good" :P
[23:49:55] <XXCoder> furrywolf: latter
[23:50:02] <furrywolf> it started off as "turn until engine starts" :)
[23:50:02] <XXCoder> many was 4 star, few 3 and fewer 1
[23:50:21] <malcom2073> Yeah heh
[23:50:28] <malcom2073> turn until engine starts. Carb backfire? You went the wrong way!
[23:51:56] <furrywolf> at some point in the history of the engine's development, they left a port for a distributor on one of the cams, but blocked it off and never made a dist for it. so you open it up, then grind a ford dist until it fits the hole and the cam...
[23:52:30] <furrywolf> since the engine was never meant to have a dist, it has no timing scale nor pointer.
[23:54:00] <furrywolf> the transmission we used has a pointer for marks on the flywheel, but the flywheel is not for the engine, and was redrilled to fit the crank, so the marks on it don't mean crap...
[23:56:24] <furrywolf> on the most recent swap I worked on, just redrilling wasn't enough, as the position of the flywheel relative to the input shaft was way off... had to mount the redrilled flywheel on a 1/2" thick spacer. :)
[23:58:54] <furrywolf> (and zee claims I only work on stock vehicles!)
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[23:59:44] <furrywolf> "��� CTCP PING reply from furrywolf: 49.166 seconds" I do so hate my connection.
