#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-06-13

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[00:00:27] <andypugh> The actual generator? \
[00:01:47] <furrywolf> no, the actual generator is good, since all six light bulbs light when connected to either set of windings. and that's not the most expensive part either. that's only has as expensive as the most expensive part... the inverter.
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[00:02:10] <andypugh> A friend is planning to make a solar-powered lathe. He has a garage with no power (separate from the house) and is planning to use solar cells, batteries, and inverter and a VFD to drive the lathe.
[00:02:37] <furrywolf> how far is it from the house?
[00:02:44] <andypugh> Why is there an inverter?
[00:02:52] <furrywolf> batteries are the part of solar systems that really suck.
[00:03:03] <furrywolf> because it's an inverter generator?
[00:03:11] <andypugh> His garage is about 100 yards from the house, accross a road and a public area.
[00:03:44] <furrywolf> the generator is a permanent magnet unit that puts out 225V 3-phase at some high frequency. this is rectified, stuffed in capacitors, then used to generate a nice perfect 60hz sine wave.
[00:03:53] <andypugh> Right, so they run the an alternator at variable speed, rectify then invert to make power?
[00:04:15] <furrywolf> this is both smaller, lighter, more efficient, and lets the engine run at any speed, making it quieter and more fuel efficient there too.
[00:04:50] <andypugh> I think I may be confusing things. This isn’t the one with the oil-burning problem? As that would be unlikely to be inverter-related.
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[00:05:06] <malcom2073> Heh, furrywolf has like, 7 generators
[00:05:10] <malcom2073> easy to confuse the issues :P
[00:05:28] <furrywolf> I got a pile of broken honda inverter generators to repair.
[00:05:51] <andypugh> Do they run inverted?
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[00:06:41] <furrywolf> so far I have one eu3000is that works perfectly, one eu2000i that works perfectly except for burning oil on startup, one eu3000is that burnt oil excessively that I took back apart and ordered rings for, and an eu6500is that seems to need an inverter.
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[00:08:01] <andypugh> So, you have an overpowered engine for your smaller inverters available. Is that bad?
[00:08:29] <furrywolf> I also have an em7000is that I suspect also needs an inverter (since it was sitting on top of it with BAD written on it...), an eu2000i that I haven't diagnosed yet (has no carb or spark plug, and looks beat to hell), an eu3000is that was used for a parts unit and I continued to do the same (has no inverter, starter, head, cam, wiring harness, carb...), and an eu2000i that has been taken completely and totally apart. every single possibl
[00:09:24] <furrywolf> yes, that's bad, because the smaller inverters won't work in it. the ECU in the generator expects to be able to talk to the inverter module, and shuts down the engine after 5 seconds of no communication, sets error codes, stores freeze-frame data, etc. the smaller units don't use the bus protocol the larger one does.
[00:09:44] <andypugh> On inverters I think I would look at the input rectifier and possibly the caps, then give up.
[00:09:51] <andypugh> But I lack moral fibre.
[00:10:20] <furrywolf> yes, that's a great idea. except all you can actually look at is the giant black epoxy blob a foot square and 2" thick.
[00:10:35] <furrywolf> with plugs coming out of it.
[00:10:41] <malcom2073> hah that figures.
[00:10:48] <malcom2073> Could dissolve the epoxy, there are procedures for that
[00:11:15] <furrywolf> yes, those procedures tend to also dissolve many of the components, and are good for reverse engineering and failure analysis, not repair.
[00:11:23] <malcom2073> heh
[00:11:36] <andypugh> Melt out the epoxy from a known-bad one. Probe the internal shape. CNC mill the epoxy from the others :-)
[00:11:50] <malcom2073> There ya go!
[00:12:09] <furrywolf> except I only have one eu6500is. :P
[00:12:21] <andypugh> Buy more :-)
[00:13:59] <furrywolf> the 6500 has an ecu of early '90s complexity... it has a carb, but controlled entirely electronically. mixture and throttle are steppers bolted to it - doesn't even have a mechanical governor. the ecu controls spark, and also contains a diagnostic system, that not only stores trouble codes, but stores freeze-frame data whenever one is set, with rpm, power, temperature, etc, all displayed on an lcd on the front of the unit.
[00:14:31] <furrywolf> it uses a proprietary bus to communicate with the inverter
[00:14:51] <furrywolf> the new 7000 is completely fuel injected...
[00:15:00] <furrywolf> (not the one I have - the one they just came out with last year)
[00:16:14] <furrywolf> the 3000 and 2000 have electronic throttle control, but a lot fewer brains, and no internal serial busses...
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[00:18:25] <furrywolf> speaking of burning oil... here's the crap crosshatch I ended up with: http://fw.bushytails.net/crappycrosshatch01.jpg I might never use a dingleberry hone again. NOT happy with it.
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[00:20:32] <malcom2073> Hmmm
[00:20:34] <Tom_itx> is it round or egg?
[00:20:58] <Tom_itx> and how much taper does it have?
[00:21:11] <furrywolf> you have to reverse direction while still in the bore, or it completely fucks up the lip where the head gasket needs to seal. note it fucked up that one. reversing while still in the bore creates sinusoidal makes, not crosshatches.
[00:21:16] <andypugh> furrywolf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT1nRq-cM7M&feature=youtu.be
[00:21:20] <furrywolf> dunno, dunno.
[00:21:54] <furrywolf> next time I'm using my trusty 3-stone hone.
[00:22:08] <malcom2073> I wonder if one of these : http://www.ebay.com/itm/2000W-Pure-Sine-Wave-Inverter-Power-Board-Post-Sine-Wave-Amplifier-Board-DIY-kit-/281676467278?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item419539cc4e ,has a wide enough input range to be hooked to a generator
[00:22:10] <Tom_itx> i like those better than the beads
[00:22:13] <furrywolf> andypugh: yes, I know how. knowing how doesn't help when your tools don't work. :P
[00:22:28] <andypugh> furrywolf: Kssp watching :-)
[00:22:48] <andypugh> (keep)
[00:23:14] <malcom2073> hahaha wtf?
[00:23:28] <malcom2073> "abrasive springloaded pads, aka spoons"
[00:23:48] <furrywolf> the individual balls get stuck outside of the cylinder, and completely fuck up the lip when changing direction. the only way they can be used to create an even crosshatch, without ruining the block, is if you clamped a plate the same size as the bore over the top to to prevent it from ruining the lip of the cylinder.
[00:23:59] <furrywolf> I'm already not sure the head gasket will seal now.
[00:24:20] <furrywolf> it'll take a bit to download before I can watch it.
[00:24:33] <malcom2073> Hahaha
[00:24:35] <malcom2073> that's awesome
[00:25:03] <furrywolf> in any case, I have something that sorta resembles a crosshatch, and the rings should be in monday...
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[00:25:26] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Did you use "extra whitening" honing paste?
[00:26:10] <furrywolf> you use the ball hone with oil
[00:26:51] <furrywolf> sadly, the tool in that video probably does less damage than the ball hone...
[00:27:22] <malcom2073> erm
[00:27:28] <malcom2073> It's a sarcastic video.... :-P
[00:27:43] <malcom2073> oh you said less hah
[00:27:49] * malcom2073 fails at internet
[00:28:09] <furrywolf> lol
[00:28:47] <andypugh> Fuel tank repair is good too, including flaring off the fuel first.
[00:29:04] <furrywolf> I think the best part is his ability to keep straight the whole video...
[00:29:33] <malcom2073> Wonder how many takes it took
[00:29:59] <Tom_itx> is that an andypugh how to?
[00:30:12] <andypugh> I lack the l33t skillz
[00:30:13] <furrywolf> I am very, very unhappy with the ball hone. It's a tool that, as far as I can tell, by design, damages blocks.
[00:30:18] <Tom_itx> heh
[00:30:41] <Tom_itx> furrywolf i don't like those either
[00:30:44] <furrywolf> not, as in, it was designed to do that, but that it's an unavoidable effect of the design.
[00:31:28] <furrywolf> the only way I can see to use it without damaging the block is to make a plate that bolts down over the block, with a machined hole the exact size and position of the bore.
[00:31:47] <furrywolf> kinda like the plates you have to make to bore out loose pressed-in liners.
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[00:41:20] <furrywolf> brb, going to see what happens if I plug my solar system into the 2000 instead of the 3000 I usually use.
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[00:53:25] * malcom2073 hears a faint boom
[00:54:12] <furrywolf> lol
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[00:59:05] <furrywolf> my solar system inverter is doing its job perfectly... I told it to only pull 13A off the generator, as the 2000 is rated for 13.3A, and it's doing exactly that.
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[01:02:41] <malcom2073> You just rectifying the generator to high voltage DC?
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[01:03:33] <furrywolf> no
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[01:04:41] <furrywolf> my inverter does fancy load-sharing... if I tell it to draw a certain current from the generator, and the loads are less than that, it'll use the available extra to charge the batteries, while if the loads exceed the setting, it'll invert the difference from the batteries so you don't overload the generator.
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[01:16:38] <malcom2073> Ah nice
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[01:23:12] <SpeedEvil> Is it more fuel efficient do you think?
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[01:29:13] <furrywolf> dunno
[01:29:35] <furrywolf> I turned it off because the neighbor showed up and asked if he could use my shopvac to vacuum out his truck
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[02:12:50] <membiblio> furry what kind of inverter generator combo do you have?
[02:14:52] <furrywolf> my main generator is a honda eu3000is. I don't use it very often. my solar system is all Outback parts, with an outback gvfx3524 inverter.
[02:15:32] <membiblio> And it does the load sharing you describe as part of its natural nature?
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[02:17:28] <furrywolf> yes
[02:17:50] <furrywolf> if I had grid power, it'd also sell extra solar back to the grid, and other fun things too.
[02:17:59] <membiblio> That is spectacular. Something that does what you naturally expect it to. Wow.
[02:18:08] <furrywolf> lol
[02:18:17] <membiblio> Very cool. Thanks.
[02:18:23] <membiblio> Where do you live btw?
[02:19:07] <furrywolf> it also does some things you might not expect. I learned (by reading) that if you connect a grid-tied inverter to its output, it'll recognize that it's being backfed, and absorb the power put out by the other inverter and put it in the batteries.
[02:19:58] <furrywolf> so you could have, say, two buildings, one with solar, batteries, and the big inverter, then another building, a distance aways, connected with mains wiring and a grid-tie-only inverter with its own solar panels, and it'll feed the solar power over the mains connection to the other building and put it in the batteries there.
[02:20:15] <furrywolf> northern california
[02:20:41] <membiblio> Spectacularly cool.
[02:20:52] <membiblio> Ok ttyl bed time for me in Pittsburgh :)
[02:20:58] <furrywolf> cyas
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[02:23:48] <furrywolf> now to turn up the generator current setting and see what happens. :P
[02:29:55] <furrywolf> at 16A the engine stops getting louder/faster, at 17A the overload light comes on, then it shuts down.
[02:31:37] <furrywolf> it seems to run well at every setting
[02:31:51] <furrywolf> too bad it burns a little bit of oil on startup, otherwise I'd declare it perfect...
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[03:11:26] <zeeshan--> pcw you here?
[03:11:38] <zeeshan--> i am trying to help setup a plasma cutter for a makerspace
[03:11:52] <zeeshan--> we scavenged basically a huge frame for the job and it's got a crap load of steppers
[03:12:01] <zeeshan--> what do you recommend for thc
[03:12:15] <zeeshan--> is the THCAD all that is needed
[03:14:03] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: ball hones SUCK. do not get one.
[03:14:47] <zeeshan--> lol why
[03:15:11] <furrywolf> they ruin your block, inherently and pretty much unavoidably.
[03:15:19] <furrywolf> or you have to live with a crap crosshatch
[03:15:32] <zeeshan--> lol
[03:15:33] <zeeshan--> you sak!
[03:15:40] <zeeshan--> it worked well forme!
[03:16:12] <furrywolf> if you keep them entirely within the bore, the top and bottom of the bore get only horizontal grinding, with no crosshatch, as the grinding is in a sinusoidal shape.
[03:16:50] <furrywolf> if you pull them out of the bore on each stroke, the lip at the top of the cylinder gets completely fucked up by the stress concentrated on the side of the balls being pushed back in on the downstroke, killing the headgasket seal.
[03:20:29] <furrywolf> when you push back down, the balls rub on the top of the deck, before being forced down into the bore... you end up with a wide scratched area with a rough bevel, even after just a few strokes, as there's much more stress applied to the side of the stones on the stroke than the evenly distributed outwards force.
[03:20:51] <furrywolf> but if you don't pull it out, you end up with no crosshatch on the top several inches of cylinder.
[03:21:12] <furrywolf> unless you drive it with a machine that can reverse direction instantly - which your arm isn't.
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[03:22:32] <furrywolf> a standard parallel stone one can be pulled halfway out of the bore without damaging the deck in any fashion
[03:22:41] <zeeshan--> lol
[03:22:58] <zeeshan--> ill bbl !
[03:23:01] <zeeshan--> im not home :/
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[04:39:53] <zeeshan|2> abck
[04:40:52] <furrywolf> and I'm off to bed. bbl.
[04:41:17] <furrywolf> I'll tell you all the reasons ball hones suck tomorrow. they've made it pretty far up on my list of tools that shouldn't exist. possibly the top of it.
[04:41:27] <zeeshan|2> lol
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[04:52:35] <englishman> i concur, bottle brush is junk
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[06:40:51] <Crom> anyone floating away in Ohio yet?
[06:41:09] <Crom> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqDVersUDHM
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[06:46:03] <Deejay> moin
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[07:27:59] <MrSunshine> hmm would a pc card parport card work for nc applications or is pc card buffered somehow so it wont work ?
[07:28:11] <MrSunshine> (the data buffered i mean then)
[07:28:40] <MrSunshine> tho i guess a laptop is crap anyhow for nc applications? =)
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[07:46:47] <archivist> some pc cards are perfect others using particular chips not
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[08:06:35] <MrSunshine> ahh
[08:06:40] <MrSunshine> that sucks =)
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[09:48:47] <XXCoder> lol
[09:48:56] <XXCoder> a fan listing brags its made from abs
[09:49:08] <XXCoder> really? must be really shitty if its bragging what its made from
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[10:34:00] <XXCoder> gonna get myself one of those http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-New-Wireless-USB-MPG-Pendant-Handwheel-Mach3-For-CNC-Mac-Mach-3-4-axis/32283267897.html
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[12:33:53] <JT-Shop> dang Xchat quit working
[12:34:40] <archivist> is it on wandaz?
[12:34:51] <JT-Shop> wheezy
[12:35:11] <JT-Shop> tells me couldn't look up your hostname and no ident response
[12:35:31] <archivist> shut it down restart it...fixes that bug
[12:36:11] <archivist> I think it comes from a poisoned dns cache somewhere
[12:36:31] <JT-Shop> it looks like it is trying again now
[12:37:03] <JT-Shop> nope still broken
[12:37:17] <archivist> gets stuck in the retry loop, kill it restart
[12:37:30] <JT-Shop> ok
[12:38:02] <archivist> been doing that for years :)
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[13:06:55] <JT-Shop> hmm Smuxi gives me the same error
[13:11:32] <archivist> has your ISP changed the DNS ip addresses, I have had that happen
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[13:36:20] <JT-Shop> a bunch of booting seemed to fix it
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[13:56:49] <Tom_itx> i think i was having issues with xchat on wheezy as well
[13:57:21] <Tom_itx> it was on the test ssd so it's hard to say what it was
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[14:20:52] <Tom_itx> pcw_home?
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[14:52:32] <zeeshan|2> PCW !! :P
[14:52:38] <zeeshan|2> JT-Shop: !!!
[14:56:48] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2!!!!
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[14:57:02] <archivist> who!!!!!
[14:58:22] <zeeshan|2> wake up!! :P
[14:58:34] * zeeshan|2 needs help with selecting electronics for cnc plasma
[14:58:53] <Tom_itx> 5i25 stepper combo
[14:59:04] <zeeshan|2> we already have breakout board and stuff
[14:59:08] <zeeshan|2> and stepper drivers
[14:59:09] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2 select round ones
[14:59:20] <zeeshan|2> im just confused on how thcad interfaces
[14:59:36] <zeeshan|2> both these guys have forum posts discussing it, but not from the start
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[14:59:55] <Tom_itx> did you check JT's page?
[14:59:59] <zeeshan|2> yea
[15:00:04] <zeeshan|2> useful after you know what you're doing
[15:00:10] <zeeshan|2> not before :P
[15:00:32] * Tom_itx gives zeeshan|2 a tricycle
[15:00:48] * zeeshan|2 drives into wall
[15:01:10] <archivist> give him a unicycle for more lols
[15:01:55] * zeeshan|2 shoves archivist's rear
[15:02:00] <zeeshan|2> with the unicycle!
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[15:03:02] <Tom_itx> http://gnipsel.com/shop/plasma/plasma.xhtml
[15:03:08] <zeeshan|2> yes
[15:03:09] -!- per_sonne_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[15:03:12] <zeeshan|2> but he has no schematics on his electronics
[15:03:29] <zeeshan|2> i'm confused about how thc works
[15:04:23] <archivist> iirc measures the arc voltage and compensates by changing z
[15:05:00] <zeeshan|2> so you basically feed the torch through the thcad
[15:05:15] <zeeshan|2> which generates a frequency proportional to voltage, which then goes to a mesa encoder input
[15:05:29] <zeeshan|2> and that converts it into a voltage again?
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[15:05:54] <archivist> linuxcnc fiddles the height
[15:06:10] <archivist> or can do, there are various methods
[15:06:50] <zeeshan|2> how does the torch not crash into the work piece
[15:07:27] <archivist> because the offset can never be above a certain value I think
[15:08:31] <zeeshan|2> so the only additional component needed is a thcad card
[15:08:32] <zeeshan|2> thats it.
[15:08:46] <zeeshan|2> we got this entire machine at the hackerspace.
[15:08:57] <zeeshan|2> it had 36 stepper motors
[15:09:00] <zeeshan|2> all with encoders
[15:09:09] <zeeshan|2> 2 glass scales (which i took for my lathe)
[15:09:24] <zeeshan|2> a shit load of ball screws and linear rails
[15:09:35] <Tom_itx> send me some ballscrews
[15:09:45] <zeeshan|2> they are small ball screws
[15:09:49] <zeeshan|2> 8" (useless)
[15:09:55] <zeeshan|2> the thompson linear rails are more useful
[15:09:56] <archivist> I like small
[15:09:58] <zeeshan|2> 36" long
[15:10:20] <zeeshan|2> we are converting it to a plasma cutter
[15:10:23] <archivist> just right for small measuring machine
[15:10:31] <zeeshan|2> itll have about 40"x16" of travel
[15:10:33] * Jymmm sends Tom_itx 1000 20lb balls COD... NOW you're screwed ;)
[15:10:50] <zeeshan|2> all components have dates "2009" on them
[15:10:54] <zeeshan|2> so it's not a really old machine
[15:11:01] <zeeshan|2> i dont know why universities throw away machines like this
[15:11:30] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: no immediate use.
[15:11:34] <Tom_itx> ones that get fed grant money
[15:11:34] <SpeedEvil> Or the grant has ended
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[15:11:39] <zeeshan|2> they should just give it to me
[15:11:45] <SpeedEvil> If you have a grant, you have grant money
[15:11:46] <zeeshan|2> ive sourced so much stuff from the dumpster so far
[15:11:46] <zeeshan|2> lol
[15:12:02] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: and when you get it, you should just give it to us
[15:12:05] <SpeedEvil> It does not directly help you to have old equipment which can do what you want, when you can purchase new
[15:12:09] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/3EjFA7Z.jpg
[15:12:11] <zeeshan|2> im trhwoing up these on ebay
[15:12:20] <zeeshan|2> i have 20 of these
[15:12:32] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/JvGhcp0.jpg
[15:12:32] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/qWfEBht.jpg
[15:12:36] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: what motors/size?
[15:12:55] <zeeshan|2> they are 2.5A steppers
[15:12:59] <zeeshan|2> by lin engineering
[15:13:01] <Jymmm> NEMA23?
[15:13:05] <zeeshan|2> yes
[15:13:10] <Jymmm> PN ?
[15:13:16] <zeeshan|2> that i dont have on me righ tnow
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[15:14:57] <aventtini> nice motors
[15:14:58] <aventtini> :d
[15:16:40] <zeeshan|2> hopefully we can raise enough money to get a MESA 5i25 + 7i76 + thcad
[15:16:44] <zeeshan|2> thats all that is missing i think.
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[15:26:29] * Loetmichel just ordered a new mainboard for the CNC cpu at the company
[15:26:58] <Loetmichel> athon x2 6400 -> core2 duo 2,93ghz
[15:27:06] <Loetmichel> and i wuill install 4gbn of ram there
[15:27:21] <Loetmichel> that should be sufficient to uopgrade to the latest liveCD
[15:27:36] <Loetmichel> becaue my machine still runs the ubuntuy 10.04 based system
[15:27:42] <Loetmichel> ... at least i hope so
[15:27:59] * JT-MOBILE needs a better motherboard for the wheezy computer
[15:28:43] <Loetmichel> already remodeled the Fujuzu desktop case to accomdate the new (mini-itx) mobo ;-)=
[15:29:44] <Loetmichel> this one has no atx mainboard inside, so i had to dremel and mill a bit ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14148&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[15:30:15] <Loetmichel> (the box below the blue 4 axis controller)
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[15:31:08] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14118&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- bit of a wiring chaos tho ;)
[15:31:19] <Tom_itx> JT-MOBILE, don't txt n drive !
[15:31:33] <zeeshan|2> JT-MOBILE: halp!!
[15:31:44] <JT-MOBILE> I'm riding
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[15:34:45] <JT-MOBILE> zeeshan what's up
[15:34:58] <zeeshan|2> i was wondering if you have any electrical schematics for your plasma cutter
[15:35:06] <JT-MOBILE> Hmm no tab key on a phone
[15:35:08] <zeeshan|2> i really need to see the big picture
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[15:35:42] <zeeshan|2> i think some of you guys might appreciate this picture
[15:35:58] <zeeshan|2> for some reason when i was doing this test in the lab it reminded me of the sphere movie
[15:36:04] <zeeshan|2> this thing was at like 40 psi pressure
[15:36:08] <zeeshan|2> and i was poking it haha
[15:36:09] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/kx4jotj.jpg
[15:36:34] <JT-MOBILE> On my Web site
[15:36:35] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: http://previews.123rf.com/images/72soul/72soul1209/72soul120900054/15327862-Illustration-depicting-a-roadsign-with--Stock-Illustration-picture-big-clarity.jpg
[15:37:07] <zeeshan|2> JT-MOBILE: you have all the configuration files
[15:37:10] <zeeshan|2> but no electrical schematics
[15:37:17] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[15:37:48] <zeeshan|2> also no pics of electrical cabinet :(
[15:38:13] <JT-MOBILE> Not much to the electric it's all in a pc case
[15:38:26] <zeeshan|2> how does the thc interface?
[15:38:30] <zeeshan|2> are you using thcad?
[15:38:35] <zeeshan|2> and using thc.9 component
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[15:40:01] * cpresser is finally making progress with the scara robot arm: https://imgur.com/a/hMXxF
[15:40:21] <cpresser> welding the part didnt work, so i had to glue it with reinforcement
[15:40:23] <zeeshan|2> nice!
[15:40:31] <zeeshan|2> is that aluminum?
[15:40:37] <cpresser> cast aluminium
[15:40:40] <zeeshan|2> send it to me
[15:40:50] <zeeshan|2> speciality of mine haha
[15:41:01] <zeeshan|2> (too late you already glued it)
[15:41:24] <cpresser> i had two 'specialists' fuck it up.
[15:41:44] <cpresser> you can see the welding marks on the first picture.
[15:42:04] <zeeshan|2> cpresser i work with a lot of cast aluminum
[15:42:12] <zeeshan|2> cause it's 90% of car stuff now
[15:42:17] <zeeshan|2> from intercooler end tanks
[15:42:23] <zeeshan|2> to transmission housings to intake manifolds
[15:42:29] <zeeshan|2> to oil pans
[15:42:57] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/KOjtGim.jpg
[15:43:00] <zeeshan|2> this is as ugly as it will get
[15:43:09] <zeeshan|2> (this was my oil pan which was exposed to oil)
[15:43:15] <zeeshan|2> it's super hard to weld it
[15:43:20] <zeeshan|2> but got it done :p
[15:43:38] <cpresser> i guess nothing beats experience :)
[15:44:12] <zeeshan|2> i would think the arm would be easier because it never saw coolant or oil
[15:45:35] <cpresser> the first guy i asked to do it didnt even bother to test the material (there are a few places on the part where i dont mind welding fuckup). he started welding at point where it broke. and fucked it totally up
[15:45:52] <zeeshan|2> =/
[15:46:02] <cpresser> now I am thinking to learn welding myself :)
[15:46:19] <zeeshan|2> i would, it's an important skill
[15:46:21] <Tom_itx> don't start with aluminum or stainless...
[15:46:25] <zeeshan|2> fu!
[15:46:28] <zeeshan|2> start with aluminum
[15:46:33] <norias> lol
[15:46:38] <zeeshan|2> thats how i started
[15:46:43] <zeeshan|2> it gives you the rhythm
[15:46:50] <zeeshan|2> and will quickly show you u're doing it wrong
[15:46:57] <zeeshan|2> if you start with steel, you'll form habits you'll never recover from
[15:47:02] <zeeshan|2> or will take a long time to get rid of the habit
[15:47:29] <zeeshan|2> i still to this day hold the torch like i did the first day i held it
[15:47:31] <cpresser> would you recommend searching a tutor, or is wachting youtube videos sufficient?
[15:47:33] <zeeshan|2> (it's not completely right)
[15:47:42] <zeeshan|2> cpresser if you have a friend
[15:47:43] <archivist> aluminium mig is completely different to steel stick
[15:47:49] <zeeshan|2> just watch them lay down beads
[15:47:51] <JT-MOBILE> Zeeshan I'll get back later
[15:47:57] <zeeshan|2> jthornton: thanks!
[15:48:11] <zeeshan|2> you need to see how they hold the torch, how the weld puddle forms, and how they move the filler and torch
[15:48:15] <Tom_itx> is there a rule of thumb for gas pressure?
[15:48:17] <archivist> cpresser, helps to watch a good welder a few times
[15:48:21] <JT-MOBILE> Shopping from a to z lol
[15:48:32] <zeeshan|2> not that i know of, i use the miller calculator
[15:48:37] <zeeshan|2> but usually 20cfh works
[15:48:58] <Tom_itx> i want enough but don't want to waste it
[15:49:12] * cpresser is going to ask around if somebody can show me the basics
[15:49:44] <archivist> cpresser, here is the best stick vid I have seen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojFZ__4t7ck
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[16:06:24] <Loetmichel> hmm.
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[16:06:35] <Loetmichel> anyone knows where to get 1mm thick sticks for a stick welder?
[16:06:41] <Loetmichel> tio weld really thing sheet metal?
[16:07:00] <Loetmichel> i know, better to dat with MAG or TIG, but i wnat to test the limits ;)
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[16:07:11] <Loetmichel> to... thin
[16:09:26] <Loetmichel> or lets ask the other way around: whats the thinnest sheet stee weld did you do with sticl?
[16:09:32] <Loetmichel> stick
[16:10:12] <Loetmichel> cpresser: you dont need a tutorm, but it makes the learning easier
[16:10:37] <Loetmichel> my first "thin stick welds" looked awful, but now i can weld 1mm sheet steel pretty well
[16:10:59] <Loetmichel> will try 0,5mm car sheet steel soon
[16:11:06] <Loetmichel> (as soon as i find 1mm sticks)
[16:11:45] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9181&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- first try in some 0,5mm carbon steel blades ;-)
[16:11:50] <Loetmichel> MAN what ugly ;-)
[16:11:59] <Loetmichel> no pics of the better welds tho ;-)
[16:12:45] <SpeedEvil> heatsink backing can hep
[16:12:54] <Loetmichel> copper plate on the back?
[16:13:23] <archivist> I glued my car last year to get it though the annual test used about 50 sticks
[16:13:31] <SpeedEvil> yes
[16:14:18] <Loetmichel> i am pretty well used to a MAG
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[16:14:30] <Loetmichel> but stick is something i am out of practice by far
[16:15:08] <archivist> too easy to burn holes with stick on thing sheet
[16:15:14] <archivist> thin
[16:15:17] <Loetmichel> i can use oxy-acytelene as well, works nicely on cars, too, especuially if you use brass rods and solder instead of welding
[16:15:47] <Loetmichel> never had the money to buy a tig tho
[16:16:30] <Loetmichel> eyeing a tig/mig/mag/stick/plasma torch set for about 2 years now, but 2kEur is a bit much for to be used about once a year
[16:16:40] <archivist> gas axe also is good for setting the car on fire
[16:16:59] <Loetmichel> archivist: that works well with stick or mag, too
[16:17:25] <Loetmichel> accidentally forgot to remove the carpet inside when welding the undercarriage from the outside once...
[16:17:28] <archivist> gas is far better for fire... dont ask how I know
[16:17:33] <Loetmichel> wanmst pretty what was left of the car
[16:17:38] <Loetmichel> wasnt
[16:18:10] <archivist> we used powder to put the carpet out on a car, what a mess
[16:18:22] <Loetmichel> since then i always have a c02 extinguisher handy when welding a rac
[16:18:23] <Loetmichel> car
[16:19:23] <Loetmichel> the stick inverter i am using atm is a cheap chinese one
[16:19:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9184&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- can do 80A ... so says the datasheed
[16:20:28] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9187&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- chinese are very confident for which size of wiring can hold 80A ;-)
[16:20:59] <Loetmichel> but besides that its surprisingly comforting to use that little thing
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[16:22:12] <Loetmichel> put in a 1mm or 1,5mm stick, set it to 45A and go welding like a crazy... and its lightweight enough to have it sitting on the shoulder with its strap and the 230V extension cord clipped to your truusers belt while welding
[16:22:50] <Loetmichel> and it has a function to start the arc and one to prevent the stick from getting stuck
[16:23:08] <Loetmichel> MUCH improvement over a iron core transformer
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[16:38:27] <JT-MOBILE> zeeshan I use the thcad card with the thc component
[16:39:05] <zeeshan|2> is that all that you need that interfaces between linuxcnc and the plasma cutter?
[16:39:14] <zeeshan|2> do you use a gpio for turning on the torch?
[16:39:42] <JT-MOBILE> My plasma has an arc ready output
[16:39:51] * zeeshan|2 checks mine
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[16:40:33] <JT-MOBILE> I connect M3 to an output that goes to the torch
[16:41:34] <zeeshan|2> ok i have a rear socket that says "CNC"
[16:41:36] <zeeshan|2> it has 12 pins.
[16:41:52] <zeeshan|2> pin 1 is "start" pin 2 is "stop"
[16:42:30] <JT-MOBILE> Mine just has start
[16:42:39] <zeeshan|2> theres a buncha other stuff..
[16:42:55] <zeeshan|2> 1/16 or 1/50 divided arc voltage
[16:43:01] <zeeshan|2> 100k ohm in- series
[16:43:17] <zeeshan|2> pin 5 and 7 is undvided arc voltage. (raw)
[16:43:27] <zeeshan|2> "this is the actual cutting voltage"
[16:43:57] <zeeshan|2> wait since i have a 1/50 divided option, whats the point of thcad then?
[16:44:29] <JT-MOBILE> To get a frequency into lxnc
[16:46:14] <zeeshan|2> can you not just directly input a voltage? :D
[16:46:54] <JT-MOBILE> Only if you have an analog input
[16:46:56] <zeeshan|2> apparently my plasma cutter has the following specs:
[16:47:14] <zeeshan|2> @ 240v supply ac voltage, it does 50A at 100V
[16:47:25] <zeeshan|2> so 100/16 = 6.25V
[16:47:32] <zeeshan|2> can't you just feed that directly to the encoder inputs
[16:47:52] <zeeshan|2> i thought the 7i67 had an analog input
[16:47:56] <zeeshan|2> for spindle encoder
[16:47:58] <JT-MOBILE> That is not a pulse stream
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[16:48:25] <zeeshan|2> so basically i need an analog to digital converter is what youre saying
[16:48:32] <JT-MOBILE> An encoder is digital0
[16:48:33] <zeeshan|2> (or just simply use thcad)
[16:48:42] <JT-MOBILE> Aye
[16:49:09] <zeeshan|2> this is the only extra thing needed relative to a cnc mill for example?
[16:49:19] <zeeshan|2> i saw limit switches on your thc
[16:49:25] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[16:49:40] <zeeshan|2> are you using them for homing
[16:49:46] <JT-MOBILE> My floating torch holder?
[16:49:53] <zeeshan|2> yes
[16:50:20] <JT-MOBILE> Z has a limit and a touch off switch
[16:50:50] <zeeshan|2> okay can you describe a typical operation
[16:50:51] <JT-MOBILE> The lower one is the touch off
[16:50:53] <zeeshan|2> do you first home it
[16:51:04] <JT-MOBILE> Yea
[16:51:05] <zeeshan|2> then after that you manually touch workpiece to get your Z offset
[16:51:14] <zeeshan|2> and then thc takes over from there?
[16:51:19] <JT-MOBILE> No
[16:52:23] <JT-MOBILE> My touch off sub does a probe move to find z0
[16:52:31] <zeeshan|2> how does it know to stop
[16:53:16] <JT-MOBILE> The switch on the floating head is connected to probe input
[16:54:08] <JT-MOBILE> When the torch touches it moves up and trips the switch
[16:54:27] <zeeshan|2> ahhhh
[16:54:56] <JT-MOBILE> The sub moves up and sets zo
[16:55:16] <JT-MOBILE> Look at touchoff.ngc
[16:55:24] <zeeshan|2> i did, i was a bit confused :)
[16:55:46] <zeeshan|2> i dont understand your floating head :P
[16:55:59] <zeeshan|2> (how does it lock in place)
[16:56:29] <JT-MOBILE> It's on a slide and has a down stop only
[16:56:43] <JT-MOBILE> It's free to move up
[16:57:19] <zeeshan|2> i see a video of something similar
[16:57:31] <zeeshan|2> it slides up and toucvhes a switch
[16:57:35] <zeeshan|2> and the weight of the torch brings it back down
[16:57:42] <JT-MOBILE> Yea
[16:58:14] <JT-MOBILE> I have some putube videos showing it
[16:58:19] <zeeshan|2> whats your channel
[16:59:21] <JT-MOBILE> lol I can't remember look for plasma first move
[16:59:51] <zeeshan|2> too many come up!
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[17:02:53] <JT-MOBILE> http://s47.photobucket.com/user/johnplctech/media/Plasma%20Cutter/Plasma001.jpg.html
[17:03:02] <JT-MOBILE> Some photos
[17:03:10] <JT-MOBILE> Looking
[17:04:26] <zeeshan|2> why do you have to probe before you cut every time
[17:04:33] <zeeshan|2> why not just set the height of the work piece manually?
[17:05:18] <JT-MOBILE> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DqlXCdfPsQUU&ved=0CBwQtwIwAGoVChMI7_y8xJONxgIVwXySCh2huAAM&usg=AFQjCNG9ClClXp2iRFEBfo2QbAgy1fZAiA
[17:05:44] <JT-MOBILE> Hope that link works
[17:05:47] <zeeshan|2> it does
[17:06:03] <JT-MOBILE> The material may be warped
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[17:08:12] * zeeshan|2 is trying to imagine the operation
[17:08:17] <zeeshan|2> i see it now in your video
[17:08:52] <zeeshan|2> so im assuming the distance from the limit switch to the tip of the torch is constant
[17:08:58] <zeeshan|2> then when the limit switch gets hit
[17:09:10] <zeeshan|2> you subtract that distance and now you know where the work piece is
[17:09:37] <JT-MOBILE> Yes
[17:09:45] <t12> have some robot marketing
[17:09:46] <t12> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3XyDLbaUmU
[17:10:42] <zeeshan|2> thanks man!
[17:11:11] <JT-MOBILE> No problem
[17:11:22] <zeeshan|2> we're gonna have a 16x40" plasma
[17:11:26] <zeeshan|2> small, but better than nothing
[17:11:29] <zeeshan|2> cut all my flanges on it
[17:11:31] <JT-MOBILE> Clear as mud now?
[17:11:34] <zeeshan|2> yes
[17:11:39] <zeeshan|2> im gonna steal all your configs
[17:11:39] <zeeshan|2> :D
[17:11:47] <zeeshan|2> "copy paste"
[17:11:59] <zeeshan|2> main difference is you're using servos
[17:12:01] <zeeshan|2> we're using steppers
[17:12:16] <JT-MOBILE> Make the frame so you can slide bigger sheets i
[17:12:29] <zeeshan|2> hopefully we sell some of these parts we scavenged, and can get a 7i76 and 5i25 and thcad
[17:12:34] <JT-MOBILE> Mine is steppers
[17:12:37] <zeeshan|2> oh
[17:12:45] <zeeshan|2> well shit you're moving REALLY fast
[17:12:49] <zeeshan|2> like 400 ipm?
[17:13:02] <JT-MOBILE> 500ipm
[17:13:07] <zeeshan|2> we have some nema 23 250 oz-in
[17:13:09] <zeeshan|2> whats your stepper spec?
[17:13:36] <JT-MOBILE> Nema23 triple stack I think
[17:13:58] <JT-MOBILE> I can look it up when I get home
[17:14:13] <JT-MOBILE> Most important is the voltage
[17:14:17] <zeeshan|2> ok sweet
[17:14:23] <zeeshan|2> these guys were running them off a 24vdc supply
[17:14:26] <zeeshan|2> the (machine they came off)
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[17:14:48] <zeeshan|2> im gonna test them later tonight when i get to the makerspace
[17:14:48] <JT-MOBILE> That will be slow
[17:14:55] <zeeshan|2> im throwing them on the frame
[17:14:58] <zeeshan|2> and seeing what ipm i can get
[17:15:17] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking 48V is needd.
[17:15:20] <zeeshan|2> *needed
[17:15:31] <JT-MOBILE> What stepper drive
[17:15:36] <zeeshan|2> unknown brand haha
[17:15:39] <zeeshan|2> it came on the machine
[17:15:48] <zeeshan|2> we might pick up some keling drives
[17:15:52] <JT-MOBILE> I'm running 68v
[17:15:54] <zeeshan|2> wow
[17:16:08] <JT-MOBILE> Gecko 203v
[17:16:41] <JT-MOBILE> Up to 80v
[17:16:45] <zeeshan|2> ni e
[17:16:47] <zeeshan|2> *nice
[17:17:01] <JT-MOBILE> The wiki has some calculators
[17:17:55] <zeeshan|2> from what i remember about steppers
[17:17:59] <zeeshan|2> the back emf limits top speed
[17:18:08] <zeeshan|2> so you need to overcome it with a larger supply
[17:18:50] <zeeshan|2> ok ill be back
[17:18:52] <zeeshan|2> thanks again
[17:18:58] <JT-MOBILE> Voltage is king with stepper and acceleration
[17:20:02] * JT-MOBILE hope they get the car dome soon
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[17:34:46] <garfong> anyone have any luck with machinekit on a beaglebone black?
[17:35:41] <pcw_home> Lots of people but they are likely here:
[17:35:43] <pcw_home> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/machinekit
[17:35:54] <Tom_itx> pcw_home,
[17:36:16] <Tom_itx> is it safe to power the 7i90 without the buss chips? i wanted to check the 5v with them removed
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[17:37:04] <garfong> ah ok ty
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[17:40:17] <pcw_home> Sure no problem with chips removed (well other than no I/O)
[17:40:41] <Tom_itx> right, it's just a 5v test... was getting ~1.4 before
[17:41:01] <Tom_itx> verifying that was all that is bad
[17:45:14] <Rab> garfong, zero luck, give up now.
[17:45:25] <garfong> lol
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[17:45:56] <garfong> I was kind of hoping it was the octoprint of CNC routing
[17:46:16] <Rab> garfong, that is, I spent several weeks evaluating that configuration before giving up and buying a cheap PC with a parallel port. I gently recommend that course of action unless you have special needs specific to the BBB.
[17:46:42] <garfong> No, that sounds like the direction I'll go then
[17:46:48] <garfong> thanks for the headsup
[17:47:19] <Rab> It works OK, it's just underpowered; hard to configure; and is not a direct port of LinuxCNC, so low-level documentation doesn't apply.
[17:49:12] <Rab> Charles S. and the other folks have put a lot of work into it, and it does work OK, but I wanted to work on the machine and not the platform/software.
[17:49:57] <garfong> yah, I was flirting with switching to linuxcnc from mach since I would have to get another pc anyway
[17:50:35] <garfong> I had such great luck with octoprint for the 3d printer, I thought I could save space in the garage
[17:50:44] <garfong> oh well
[17:50:47] <garfong> thanks for the info
[17:51:02] <garfong> time to make a run to microcenter :)
[17:51:43] <Rab> The Axis GUI is also pretty slow on the BBB. Like 10 FPS. It was rather frustrating.
[17:53:03] <Rab> garfong, you may want to read up on latency so you can select good hardware. Faster isn't necessarily better. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Latency-Test
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[17:54:10] <Rab> E.g. laptops aren't usually a good fit for real time requrements because there's a lot of disruptive power management activity.
[17:58:56] <pcw_home> sometimes OK: linuxcnc running on a a Dell E6420
[17:58:58] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/linuxcnc.png
[17:58:59] <pcw_home> latency:
[17:59:00] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/e6420.png
[17:59:46] <pcw_home> (but you cannot change from battery to line power or vice versa without bad latency spikes)
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[18:08:13] <Rab> pcw_home, I know some people have had trouble just with the battery installed; the BIOS does some charging top-off activity every few seconds.
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[18:08:45] <Rab> Removing the battery solves that problem.
[18:09:11] <pcw_home> Yeah depends, Seems like some newer Intel laptops are ok
[18:10:01] <pcw_home> notice that latency test, thats 4 hours with videos running etc
[18:12:18] <pcw_home> This is with Preemt-RT which seems to run better on faster hardware
[18:13:40] <pcw_home> Preemt-RT on a faster machine:
[18:13:42] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258-preemt-rt.png
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[19:20:36] <tjtr33> PCW, is that last plot for H97 chipset and g3258 cpu?
[19:20:53] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d62D3Et8zs8
[19:21:01] <SpeedEvil> Cogging Torque Ripple Minimization via Position Based Characterization
[19:23:34] <pcw_home> yes ASRock H97M Pro4 with G3258
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[19:30:15] <tjtr33> thx
[19:31:00] <tjtr33> i had read that the Z97 chipset usually had more ports on the mobos
[19:36:24] <tjtr33> nice. 2pci 2 pcie a parport hdr and the ps2 split for 2 devices in 1 port ( just built a frankenstein kbd/mouse into a single cnxr )
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[19:36:56] <pcw_home> well the AsRock MB is nice because it has 2 PCI slots, Intel MAC, parallel and serial and is cheap
[19:38:09] <pcw_home> also the G3258 is as fast per core as just about anything
[19:38:40] <pcw_home> (and is cheap, any of the G32XXs are probably similar)
[19:39:06] <pcw_home> plus RTAI latency is great
[19:39:17] <pcw_home> http://freeby.mesanet.com/h97-g3258.png
[19:40:23] <tjtr33> wow thats too clean
[19:41:10] <tjtr33> thx for testing these
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[19:41:54] <pcw_home> also its fast enough to runs servo threads to say 8 KHz
[19:44:10] <tjtr33> i remember PMAC bragging about 32uS update rates
[19:44:36] <tjtr33> but i dont have a machine that respond that fast anyway
[19:44:46] <pcw_home> probably important if its running a current loop
[19:45:14] <pcw_home> not important for the velocity loop or below
[19:47:46] <pcw_home> current loop typically runs at the PWM rate (in the drive)
[19:47:47] <pcw_home> velocity loop typically runs at say 2 to 10 KHz in the drive or external
[19:47:49] <pcw_home> position loop typically runs at 1 to 4 KHz in the drive or external
[19:50:25] <pcw_home> unless you are running something very fast like a galvanometer or something
[19:50:27] <pcw_home> very fast and precise at the same time there's not really any advantage of running faster
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[21:26:39] <robinsz> so, tell me, how easy is it ot change the labels in the GUI?
[21:28:06] <robinsz> there are basically 3 functions I need, mist (ok, thats there already) vac clamp and dust exract
[21:28:43] <robinsz> I was going to use the "flood" M code and buttonf for the vac clamp, just need to re-label it
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[22:00:15] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:17:12] <furrywolf> got very little at yard sales today... a cobra 140gtl for $1, a pair of jackstands for $3, and a couple small handtools for $2.
[22:17:46] <furrywolf> finally have a ssb cb again... my other one went awol a while ago...
[22:18:17] <furrywolf> need to mount it in my truck
[22:19:28] * furrywolf doesn't see why ALL cbs aren't ssb
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[22:28:49] <SpeedEvil> yay
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[22:47:19] <furrywolf> really... plain AM is so far inferior there's not really any reason to sell am-only cbs...
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[22:49:21] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: PEP is much higher.
[22:49:51] <SpeedEvil> Historically, it's not been possible to do SSB to adequate frequency resolution without tuning
[22:50:43] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Are you still off the water grid?
[22:50:53] * SpeedEvil reads about water cuts.
[22:52:35] <furrywolf> yes
[22:52:42] <furrywolf> and there's no water shortage here
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[22:53:31] <furrywolf> in fact, today's paper announced that we got the exemption to the state water reduction crap... rather than having to reduce our water usage 25%, we have to reduce it 4%. and, of course, that's only for people with city water, not wells.
[22:54:15] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[22:56:25] <furrywolf> we got the exemption because we're not part of the same water system as the rest of the state, we do not have a water shortage, and we have more than four years of water in reserve, that is, we could go more than four years at our current water usage rate, without a drop of rain, before the reservoir got low...
[22:57:37] <furrywolf> while reservoirs in the rest of the state are quite low, ours has been overflowing all winter
[22:57:52] <furrywolf> full to the spillways every time it rains
[22:58:51] <furrywolf> this, of course, means that in the long term southern california will hatch some plan to steal our water and pipe in their way, then act like it's our problem we don't have enough water, but for now, water is plentiful...
[23:00:27] <furrywolf> (note that's what they've done to the rest of the state - many other parts of the state would have plenty of water if it wasn't for it being piped down south)
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[23:01:57] <furrywolf> water in california involves way too much politics, and the water tends to follow the money, usually to the detriment of smaller communities, the environment, the indian tribes, etc.
[23:02:19] <furrywolf> massive fish kills due to low water flows, etc.
[23:03:21] <SpeedEvil> The gravity maps are striking
[23:03:57] <SpeedEvil> http://www.nasa.gov/press/2014/december/nasa-analysis-11-trillion-gallons-to-replenish-california-drought-losses/
[23:04:23] <furrywolf> just talked to the guy I got the generators from... going to head over there monday and pick up two more eu3000ises
[23:04:40] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:04:51] <SpeedEvil> Why does he have so many - was trying to repair then health failed?
[23:05:42] <furrywolf> se up on the northern coast, where the trend is "0"? that's where I am.
[23:05:45] <furrywolf> see
[23:05:57] <furrywolf> it's a repair shop that closed a location, and this was the pile of crap in the back room.
[23:06:09] <XXCoder> was was thinking repair shop lol
[23:06:51] <SpeedEvil> ah
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[23:07:27] <furrywolf> we do not have a water shortage. this year was a little dry, like last year, but still something like 80% of our mean rainfall.
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[23:09:56] <furrywolf> I want to see large nuclear desalination plants. If you want to build a city in the desert, you're required to build them and their required infrastructure, sufficient to generate all your own water.
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[23:10:10] <furrywolf> rather than seeing which other parts of the state you can steal water from
[23:10:22] <SpeedEvil> Well, regular solar desalination also would work
[23:10:39] <XXCoder> furrywolf: that'd be great
[23:10:45] <furrywolf> sure, if you have a few million acres spare...
[23:11:37] <furrywolf> what'd be even better is nuclear fusion powered desalination, but so far we haven't quite gotten that to work. I think japan holds the record for the longest self-sustaining fusion reaction, at under a minute...
[23:11:57] <XXCoder> im sure fusion we are going down wrong track
[23:12:07] <XXCoder> hopefully some new discovery would help
[23:12:36] <furrywolf> you can extract your fusion fuel efficiently from the desalination brine, with no waste, making it a completely self-contained building that magically outputs fresh water with no input but sea water...
[23:12:42] <XXCoder> unless holycrap someone discovered zero point power
[23:12:49] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: we have
[23:13:05] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: test facilities were in Bikini Atol
[23:13:25] <furrywolf> yes, note I mentioned LONGEST. that was a very quick fusion reaction. :P
[23:14:48] <SpeedEvil> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sULjMjK5lCI oh god. The stupid - it burns.
[23:14:55] <SpeedEvil> Nuclear Hoax - Nukes Do Not Exist!
[23:15:18] <XXCoder> prymid power!
[23:15:29] <furrywolf> XXCoder: japan has gotten very close to a successful research-sized fusion plant, so that would be good evidence the current track may work. it may not be optimal, but it may work.
[23:15:34] <XXCoder> maybe scientists should put fusion under prymid lol
[23:15:51] <XXCoder> furrywolf: indeed just hope find much better method
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[23:16:10] <SpeedEvil> We've had nuclear breakeven in fusion.
[23:16:29] <SpeedEvil> But this is some ways from energy breakeven in a reactor, and even further from commercial realisation
[23:16:39] <XXCoder> I would laugh so hard if someone finds actual gravity power
[23:17:17] <XXCoder> aka all them crackpot overunity stuff
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[23:17:29] <furrywolf> no, we've had a self-sustaining, contained, controlled fusion reaction, on the order of a minute, in a test reactor.
[23:17:39] <furrywolf> very close to break-even.
[23:18:29] <SpeedEvil> yeah - not the tabletop ones
[23:18:31] <SpeedEvil> JET
[23:18:42] <SpeedEvil> JET is not tabletop
[23:18:52] <SpeedEvil> Unless you have an awesome table
[23:19:03] <furrywolf> when did anyone ever mention tabletop?
[23:19:13] <furrywolf> I was talking about desalination facilities capable of supplying a city
[23:19:33] <SpeedEvil> I misread - and I thought XXCoderwas referring to 'fusor'
[23:19:53] <XXCoder> lol
[23:20:43] <furrywolf> ITER claims to be aiming for a self-sustaining reaction, but they seem to be taking an awful lot of money to get there.
[23:20:45] <XXCoder> theres also other important discovery that definitely need fusion - em drive
[23:21:00] <XXCoder> it used to be crackpot but then chinese then nasa proved it works
[23:21:10] <furrywolf> ... they have not "proved it works"
[23:21:21] <furrywolf> any more than I've looked out the window today and proved it never rains anywhere in the world
[23:21:51] <XXCoder> well they proved it moves under power
[23:22:21] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: No, they haven't.
[23:22:49] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: In order to prove something works, you need multiple people to test a thing, and get similar results to witnin the bounds of error.
[23:22:52] <SpeedEvil> This has not happened.
[23:23:07] <furrywolf> they proved their test apparatus measured a very, very tiny force. they have not proven this force was the result of the claimed effect, and not due to unaccounted environmental factors, such as interaction with the earth's magnetic field.
[23:23:22] <SpeedEvil> The chinese and the NASA effects are _significantly_ different in orders of magnitude
[23:23:38] <furrywolf> in fact, their dummy device, designed to NOT show the claimed effect, registered the same force.
[23:23:42] <XXCoder> well one thing is that it is more than just crackpot
[23:25:50] <XXCoder> I just hope it turns out to be effective long term
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> we REALLY need drive that dont throw stuff behind
[23:25:51] <furrywolf> much, much more testing is needed before claiming it's been proven to work.
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> indeed
[23:25:51] <furrywolf> the fact that the dummy test showed the same force is closer to proving it DOESN'T work...
[23:25:51] <SpeedEvil> The EM drive is also a free energy device.
[23:25:51] <SpeedEvil> If indeed it produces constant thrust at any speed.
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: what no
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> it needs MASSIVE power input
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> its huge drain not free energy
[23:25:51] <SpeedEvil> At thrust / watts in m/s you can connect a generator to it, and get breakeven.
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> nah
[23:25:51] <SpeedEvil> At twice that speed, you get the same amount of power out as in
[23:25:51] <XXCoder> it barely moves (assuming it actually does) so you can maybe get 1 watt
[23:25:56] <XXCoder> compared to huge amount in
[23:26:13] <SpeedEvil> One newton per 10000W equals breakeven at 10km/s.
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[23:26:29] <SpeedEvil> This is as engineering annoying.
[23:27:15] <XXCoder> its not 100% conversion of power to speed
[23:27:17] <furrywolf> Japan believes their fusion test reactor is capable of generating 1.25 times the energy put into it, being self-sustaining. but, it's not set up to handle the fuel needed to do so. they're working on upgrades....
[23:27:49] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: If you are claiming that force varies with speed, you've just reinvented the aether.
[23:27:58] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: and now have a whole heap of other seperate problems.
[23:28:01] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: what if it's determined to become less efficient as its speed increases? after all, we're inventing physics here, might as well invent something to balance them out... :P
[23:28:24] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: im just saying that constant force means speed increase, and force needs whole heaps of power
[23:29:00] <XXCoder> which means its way less than 1% effecient
[23:29:08] <furrywolf> 1% of what?
[23:29:08] <SpeedEvil> No, it doesn't.
[23:29:22] <furrywolf> how do you measure the efficiency of converting energy to force? what is your reference?
[23:29:24] <SpeedEvil> 1N per 10000W of power is not any % efficient.
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[23:29:50] <SpeedEvil> The efficiency depends on speed. At 1000m/s it's 10% efficient. At 10000m/s, 100%. 20000m/s 200%
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[23:30:47] <furrywolf> XXCoder: as I've said, I'd love if it works... but I'm not believing it does without substantially more testing, and the results of that testing will need to alter currently understood physics.
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[23:31:08] <XXCoder> furrywolf: it might be case of seperate frame of reference for light
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[23:31:35] <XXCoder> or maybe it pushes on vacuum parcles and it disappears before hitting other end hence cancelling motion
[23:31:51] <XXCoder> really they got no idea why it works atm
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[23:31:55] <furrywolf> or maybe it has little hamsters running around inside the photons making them roll faster
[23:32:02] <XXCoder> makes it tough on how to improve it
[23:32:09] <XXCoder> lol yeah force is that small
[23:32:26] <XXCoder> it could bve hamster rolling a whille causing angular troque
[23:32:31] <XXCoder> *wheel
[23:32:35] <furrywolf> I'm not commenting on the size of the force. I'm commenting on the utterly inventedness of any theories as to its operation.
[23:33:06] <XXCoder> indeed
[23:34:12] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: im still not understanding your idea - seems youre saying that device allows anyone to set it to any speed using same amount of energy?
[23:34:14] <furrywolf> if it works, it'll change physics as we know it. that's certainly happened plenty of times throughout history, and is not impossible. but such changes require much more testing.
[23:34:18] <XXCoder> because thats not the case
[23:34:23] <XXCoder> indeed
[23:34:53] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: the problem is if it does not produce the same thrust at any speed, it requires an aether to push against
[23:35:02] <XXCoder> ah trolling
[23:35:07] <SpeedEvil> which then raises the awkward question of why this aether is co-rotating with earth
[23:35:43] <SpeedEvil> The earth is rotating around the sun at ~40km/s and around the galaxy at ~150km/s
[23:35:56] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: there's plenty of theories involving modern versions of aether to explain its operation
[23:35:57] <SpeedEvil> why should the thrust be proportional to speed at earth.
[23:36:11] <furrywolf> I'll be especially amused if it turns out Tesla's aether-based claims were right after all. :)
[23:37:06] <XXCoder> furrywolf: another interesting thing I hope would be discovered is tachyon
[23:37:28] <furrywolf> on the fusion power topic, they're now claiming ITER will be ready to start testing things in 2020... seems that date keeps getting pushed back, and the dollar requirement up, but slowly getting there.
[23:37:43] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: slowdowns cause spending to rise.
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[23:38:06] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Plus, unfortunate pork-barrel stuff that's in many ways worse than NASA - which takes some doing
[23:38:15] <SpeedEvil> 'we need 12 of these'
[23:38:24] <SpeedEvil> So, let's order 3 from japan, 3 from france, ...
[23:38:47] <furrywolf> if they really do get out what their predictions say, ten times output than input, it'll demonstrate a commercial plant to be feasable...
[23:39:47] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[23:40:06] <XXCoder> yeah I wouldnt think 1.5x is suffecent
[23:40:09] <SpeedEvil> At which point, solar+battery will be economical, so they can not bother building it
[23:40:21] <SpeedEvil> (not quite serious - but ...)
[23:40:30] <XXCoder> telsa is building home battery system
[23:40:35] <XXCoder> using their famous car batteries
[23:40:57] <furrywolf> XXCoder: no, it needs a lot more, due to the inefficiencies at various steps of the process... like using heat to generate power to generate microwaves to generate heat...
[23:40:59] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: the cost of the electricity in general exceeds $.40/kWh for most reasonable use-cases
[23:41:08] <furrywolf> tesla's home battery system is available, and it's crap.
[23:41:15] <SpeedEvil> It's not crap.
[23:41:19] <SpeedEvil> It's uneconomic
[23:41:32] <furrywolf> the cost substantially exceeds other vendors' batteries, with piss-poor specs.
[23:41:56] <furrywolf> stupidly high internal resistance. I'm not sure how they managed to do that, given as their electric car packs would require low internal resistance...
[23:42:20] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I don't think they quote internal resistance
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[23:42:44] <furrywolf> no, they quote a maximum current, which is stupidly low, which implies it must have a stupidly high internal resistance, and melts or droops over that.
[23:42:44] <SpeedEvil> If you mean the low charge/discharge - then that's to extend life
[23:43:11] <SpeedEvil> i would be very surprised if the cells couldn't do 200kW pulses on the 10kWh pack
[23:43:12] <XXCoder> oh yeah keep forgetting this
[23:43:20] <XXCoder> furrywolf: how much KWH for home would be suffecent?
[23:43:27] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: it depends.
[23:43:43] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: Are you in a nice solar area, where the worst-case annual dip in sunlight is 50%
[23:44:04] <SpeedEvil> Or do you live in a place where you need to be able to run from two days sun for a week.
[23:44:20] <XXCoder> summer former winter latter
[23:44:21] <furrywolf> and how many kw does your home draw? :P
[23:44:27] <SpeedEvil> 'how much kWh' depends a lot on stuff.
[23:44:40] <XXCoder> indeed thats part of my question - how to know that
[23:44:43] <SpeedEvil> It can reasonably go from about 1kWh/day to 200kWh/day
[23:44:56] <SpeedEvil> depending on assumptions and your house style
[23:45:28] <furrywolf> are you willing to sit in the dark? do you want to go entirely solar, which is more expensive but quiet and clean, or use a backup generator for long unsunny periods, which is cheaper, but noisy, dirty, requires fuel supplies, maintenance, etc?
[23:45:51] <SpeedEvil> 1kWh would be an efficient multi-occupant home, not heating or cooling electrically, and with a small room to yourself with LED and tablet.
[23:46:16] <furrywolf> I'm electrically cooling right now. :P
[23:46:33] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I was thinking enough to cover peaks and lessen cooling/heating costs
[23:46:38] <furrywolf> the nice thing about electrically cooling is that demand and supply tend to align better than most loads
[23:46:58] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: also in principle for solar concentration too
[23:47:00] <XXCoder> maybe sometimes cover power needs completely (summer easily can do that, its sunny a lot then)
[23:47:12] <furrywolf> for off-grid, keep in mind the cost of batteries exceeds the cost of grid power.
[23:47:15] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I've wondered about your standard panel, with a couple of wings for 3* sun, and a big fan
[23:47:36] <furrywolf> that is, it's cheaper to sell your extra to the grid and buy your nighttime power, than it is to store it in batteries.
[23:47:54] <XXCoder> yea was wondering about that
[23:48:04] <SpeedEvil> Batteries make sense - if the alternative is generators
[23:48:08] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: concentrated solar is nothing new
[23:48:14] <furrywolf> I even have some panels from the carizzo plant, where they aimed sun at them until they baked.
[23:48:17] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: no, it's not
[23:48:26] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I mean using stock panels not rated for it
[23:48:33] <furrywolf> yes
[23:49:29] <SpeedEvil> what concentration were they using?
[23:49:36] <furrywolf> plenty of tests have been done on this. they work well, IFF, and that's a big IFF, you have direct sunlight. doesn't help when your light source is diffuse light, like on overcast, cloudy, foggy, rainy, etc days.
[23:49:50] <XXCoder> if thats 1kw I wonder how much space it would need for say 50kw (wild guess half of house needs)
[23:49:53] <SpeedEvil> and yes, concentration obviously works.
[23:50:10] <furrywolf> so you end up getting more power when you already have plenty of power (clear days), and not getting any benefit at all on days where you could actually use the extra power.
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[23:50:11] <SpeedEvil> I was meaning with stock non-concentrated panels
[23:50:22] <SpeedEvil> for AC loads
[23:50:32] <SpeedEvil> It is - almost - useless here.
[23:50:58] <XXCoder> big window AC needs 1 kw
[23:51:09] <furrywolf> concentrating solar is a good idea for power plants in desert areas. I don't think it's useful for most home systems.
[23:51:11] <XXCoder> centeral AC needs 3.5kw
[23:51:24] <furrywolf> also consider concentrating solar requires tracking for most cases
[23:51:32] <XXCoder> wow if just cover serious power needs of nice AC system, just need say 4 panels
[23:51:36] <furrywolf> adding to costs, both upfront and ongoing.
[23:51:40] <XXCoder> more if charging battery at same time
[23:51:49] <XXCoder> how long do panels last
[23:51:52] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: typical panels are 250W
[23:52:00] * furrywolf has no idea what xxcoder is talking about anymore
[23:52:00] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: plus, you need an inverter.
[23:52:14] <XXCoder> furrywolf: power needs and solar panels
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[23:52:59] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: yea I saw 1kw panels on a site
[23:53:11] <XXCoder> more expensive than 100w ones but way less area
[23:53:17] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: I'm not saying they don't exist, but they don't exist.
[23:53:25] <furrywolf> lol
[23:53:31] <XXCoder> :P
[23:53:36] <SpeedEvil> 1kW panels would be around 5m^2
[23:53:49] * furrywolf googles and confirms the non-existance of 1kw panels
[23:53:50] <SpeedEvil> This is ~8 feet on a side.
[23:54:10] <SpeedEvil> And weigh ~200kg or so
[23:54:23] <XXCoder> that may be case yes
[23:54:40] <SpeedEvil> They're so much harder to handle, and transport that it's not going to happen.
[23:54:48] <SpeedEvil> Unless as very special niches.
[23:54:55] <XXCoder> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LBSolar-1KW-Off-Grid-Solar-Power-Generator-System-Kit-with-1000W-Inverter-Internal-Installed-12V20A-Controller/32361235927.html
[23:54:55] <furrywolf> I've seen an impressively large panel, but not that big.
[23:55:11] <XXCoder> claims there any good heh
[23:55:20] <furrywolf> kit != panel.
[23:55:24] <SpeedEvil> 'solar power 200W'
[23:55:25] <XXCoder> I kniow
[23:55:37] <SpeedEvil> the panel is 200W, not 1kW
[23:55:41] <furrywolf> also,that's only a 200W panel kit. lol
[23:55:43] <XXCoder> theres panel only one thats 1kw too
[23:55:53] <XXCoder> furrywolf: I know!
[23:55:54] <SpeedEvil> that will have four or five panels
[23:55:58] <furrywolf> and that's a shit price
[23:56:15] <furrywolf> you can get panels from the US substantially cheaper
[23:56:16] <XXCoder> I was wondering merits of entry not wheather its 1kw panel or not
[23:56:23] <XXCoder> yeah? nice
[23:56:33] <XXCoder> sources? I wanna do some research
[23:57:07] <furrywolf> you need to start with research on basic fundamentals, not pricing. you research pricing after you have some clue what you're looking for and at.
[23:57:07] <SpeedEvil> $1/W i can get locally on ebay, free delivery
[23:57:16] <SpeedEvil> And yeah - that.
[23:57:30] <SpeedEvil> A reasonable starting point is working out what your baseload is.
[23:57:33] <furrywolf> no offense, but... you do not have this clue. at all.
[23:57:39] <SpeedEvil> And what approvals you would need to connect to the grid.
[23:57:54] <XXCoder> furrywolf: yeah I wanted to ask how to figure stuff out
[23:58:18] <XXCoder> lets assume 50kw
[23:58:28] <XXCoder> how do I start looking around
[23:58:37] <furrywolf> 50kw is a very large solar system, more suitable to a small commercial installation.
[23:58:57] <XXCoder> lets do large bump down
[23:59:00] <XXCoder> 10kw?
[23:59:02] <SpeedEvil> I suspect he may be confusing kW and kWh
[23:59:10] <furrywolf> http://www.civicsolar.com/product/canadian-solar-cs6p-255p-255w-poly-blkwht-quartech-solar-panel 84 cents/watt, not too bad....
[23:59:17] <XXCoder> actually that may be case SpeedEvil
[23:59:27] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: Where do you live?
[23:59:33] <XXCoder> kilowatt a hour
[23:59:48] <XXCoder> washington state, the not desert side - west
[23:59:56] <furrywolf> http://www.civicsolar.com/product/canadian-solar-cs6p-260p-260w-poly-blkwht-solar-panel-blemished 68 cents/watt if you don't mind blemished panels