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[00:02:39] <Tom_itx> i'm not getting any output from the pid yet
[00:02:54] <Tom_itx> pid.0.command is 300 pid.0.output is 0
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[00:03:19] <Tom_itx> pgain is 0 Igain is 0 FF0 is 1
[00:03:39] <Tom_itx> which is what i understood pcw_home as being 'neutral'
[00:03:57] <andypugh> Is the PID enabled?
[00:04:30] <Tom_itx> well it shows up in hal configuration
[00:04:44] <Tom_itx> aarg.. maybe not
[00:05:13] <Tom_itx> where do i put pid.0.do-pid-calcs ?
[00:05:20] <Tom_itx> set it to a value or what?
[00:07:00] <Tom_itx> show configuration has pid.0.do-pid-calcs.time as 0
[00:07:05] <Tom_itx> what is time defined as?
[00:07:19] <Tom_itx> it's a float value
[00:07:24] <andypugh> You need to addf pid.0.do-pid-calcs to the servo thread
[00:07:37] <Tom_itx> but not pid.0 ?
[00:07:57] <Tom_itx> i got an error when i did that
[00:08:05] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/pid.9.html
[00:08:36] <andypugh> You need to addf the functions
[00:08:38] <Tom_itx> i've got that open
[00:08:56] <Tom_itx> i did addf pid.0 servo-thread and got an error
[00:09:17] <Tom_itx> ok, just the functions
[00:09:34] <andypugh> You can’t addf pid.0, you need to addf the actual function name
[00:09:48] <Tom_itx> gotcha
[00:10:01] <Tom_itx> what should time be set to?
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[00:10:15] <Tom_itx> pid.0.do-pid-calcs.time
[00:10:27] <Tom_itx> or will that be set by adding it to the thread?
[00:10:27] <andypugh> You don’t set it, the function time is a measurment
[00:10:40] <Tom_itx> ok
[00:11:09] <Tom_itx> that could be added to the SYNOPSIS for clarity :)
[00:11:12] <andypugh> You also need to setp the pid.0.enable to 1 too. (or net it to motion.spindle-is-on)
[00:11:32] <Tom_itx> ok the latter is probably better?
[00:11:39] <andypugh> You are meant to know that every HAL component needs its function adding to a thread.
[00:12:17] <Tom_itx> us noobs don't know all that yet. i guess i should by now
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[00:28:51] <Tom_itx> andypugh, with the pid neutral, should the pwmgen scale be set so that all the range undershoots a bit?
[00:28:54] <Tom_itx> aarg crap
[00:29:06] <Tom_itx> well, anybody?
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[00:43:14] <pcw_home> pwmgen scale should be set in RPM
[00:50:50] <Tom_itx> right but right now it overshoots in the high range
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[00:51:12] <Tom_itx> adding pid to that will make the high overshoot more won't it?
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[00:51:28] <Tom_itx> don't i wan't it all to undershoot a bit
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[01:19:55] <_methods> bottom of the harbor freight mothers day coupon
[01:20:16] <Tom_itx> i notice that it seems no matter what i set, the pwmgen.00.value gradually keeps increasing
[01:22:44] <pcw_home> overshoot is probably best handled by putting the command through limit2
[01:22:45] <pcw_home> (so you dont have stepwise changes in the commanded velocity)
[01:23:28] <Tom_itx> it's a gradual increase, not a snap to speed but it keeps creeping
[01:23:49] <Tom_itx> i did add a little D to see what it would do
[01:24:30] <Tom_itx> should i try chaning FF0 off 1 to say 1.05 or something
[01:29:22] <pcw_home> If FF0 is not 1 that means scaling is probably wrong somewhere else
[01:29:42] <pcw_home> D is typically not useful
[01:29:53] <Tom_itx> i fiddled with pwmgen.scale so that it won't overshoot at the high range
[01:30:02] <Tom_itx> yeah i didn't see much from D
[01:30:07] <Tom_itx> set it back to 0
[01:30:37] <Tom_itx> what causes it to creep up like that?
[01:30:40] <Tom_itx> the I term?
[01:31:16] <pcw_home> If you have any I term you cannot have steps in the command so overshoot is best handled
[01:31:17] <pcw_home> by limiting the rate of change of the velocity command
[01:31:19] <Tom_itx> the pwmgen.00.value is always higher than the rpm
[01:31:42] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure how to use limit2
[01:31:53] <pcw_home> thats expected (its doing its job)
[01:32:02] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:32:25] <Tom_itx> but even after it reaches it's setpoint it continues to creep
[01:32:39] <pcw_home> that is, if the input matched the output you have perfect open loop performance so PID is not required
[01:32:49] <Tom_itx> and after going from a higher rpm to a lower one it returns to a rpm higher than the S word
[01:32:55] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:33:13] <Tom_itx> and continues to creep up from that
[01:34:11] <pcw_home> did you set P as high as it can go first (with I = 0) ?
[01:34:23] <Tom_itx> yeah
[01:34:38] <Tom_itx> i kept the high range under the setpoint
[01:35:04] <Tom_itx> which caused the low range not to reach it's setpoint
[01:35:49] <pcw_home> the I term probably has to be quite a big number for reasonable fast response
[01:36:41] <pcw_home> otherwise it will creep towards the setpoint
[01:37:11] <Tom_itx> i'll increase it a little at a time and watch it
[01:37:23] <pcw_home> _but_ a large I term means you _must_ limit the rate of change of the command
[01:37:49] <pcw_home> or you will get whats called integrator windup
[01:38:21] <pcw_home> and large overshoots/ringing
[01:39:19] <Tom_itx> I is what is causing the creep
[01:39:22] <Tom_itx> which makes sense
[01:39:42] <pcw_home> that is the commanded spindle velocity should not exceed the acceleration capabilities of the drive
[01:39:44] <pcw_home> I is all about creep
[01:40:15] <pcw_home> (gradually homing in on the setpoint)
[01:40:19] <Tom_itx> i did initially have it set too high and it ran away the first time
[01:40:43] <Tom_itx> had no idea where to start with the numbers
[01:41:05] <pcw_home> well you have P right?
[01:41:59] <pcw_home> but really I needs to have limit2 on the commanded spindle speed
[01:42:17] <Tom_itx> p is close
[01:42:37] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure where or how to put limit2 in the loop
[01:43:10] <Tom_itx> limit2.out would go to the pwmgen.value right?
[01:43:27] <Tom_itx> limit2.in would go to the command speed?
[01:43:35] <pcw_home> motion spindle speed --> limit in --> limit out --> PID command in
[01:44:09] <Tom_itx> and how do you set the limit min max?
[01:44:26] <pcw_home> man limit2 :-)
[01:44:43] <Tom_itx> i did
[01:46:00] <pcw_home> min and max dont need to be set
[01:46:08] <pcw_home> only maxv
[01:47:10] <pcw_home> since the input and output are RPM
[01:47:12] <pcw_home> maxv is scaled in RPM per second
[01:47:29] <Tom_itx> so set maxv to the commanded rpm?
[01:48:22] <pcw_home> no, maxv is set to limit the rate of change
[01:49:13] <pcw_home> so for example setting maxv to 500 would limit the output rate of change to 500 RPM per second
[01:49:20] <Tom_itx> as it is right now, with S500 if i let it run rpm would increase beyond 2000 i'm sure of it
[01:50:43] <Tom_itx> so in that example if i commanded S3000 it would take a few sec for it to reach
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[01:52:29] <pcw_home> If it increases to 2000 that sounds like either the feedback velocity is wrong
[01:52:31] <pcw_home> or perhaps you have a wrap because of a sign change
[01:53:13] <Tom_itx> i didn't let it go that far to verify it
[01:53:25] <Tom_itx> but it crept from 500 past 1000
[01:54:46] <pcw_home> that means either the feedback is not working (is the scaled spindle velocity it wired to the PID? is in the correct sign?)
[01:55:11] <pcw_home> Or like I said you have a wrap issue
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[01:55:27] <Tom_itx> how do you check that?
[01:55:44] <Tom_itx> sign is right
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[01:56:46] <atom1> right now it's set like this:
[01:56:50] <pcw_home> so you are saying the pid command is 500, the PID feedback is 1000 and its still commanding a higher speed?
[01:57:14] <atom1> yes
[01:57:19] <atom1> net spindle-speed-out motion.spindle-speed-out => abs.0.in pid.0.command
[01:57:30] <atom1> net spindle-pid-out pid.0.output => hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.pwmgen.00.value
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[01:58:05] <pcw_home> so look at the PID output
[01:58:11] <atom1> P is .28 I is .05
[01:58:41] <atom1> i'm watching the pwmgen.00.value
[01:58:49] <atom1> and it keeps creeping
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[01:59:11] <pcw_home> well it will creep with such a low I term
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[01:59:39] <Tom_itx> even past the setpoint?
[02:00:16] <pcw_home> Yes
[02:01:17] <pcw_home> well first look at PID command, PID feedback and PID output when you are past the setpoint
[02:02:09] <pcw_home> (and probably turn off the I term for testing)
[02:04:16] <Tom_itx> at 3000 it's 3840 at 500 it's 640
[02:04:26] <Tom_itx> 500 actual rpm is 300
[02:04:52] <pcw_home> with only P at .28 and FF0 of 1, a commanded speed of 500 RPM with an actual (feedback pin of PID) speed of 1000
[02:04:54] <pcw_home> should result in a PID output of 360
[02:04:54] <Tom_itx> 3000 actual is right around 3000
[02:05:42] <Tom_itx> feedback is 0
[02:06:00] <Tom_itx> i may not have everything set up the way it should be yet
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[02:06:28] <pcw_home> OK so without feedback this cannot work :-)
[02:06:42] <Tom_itx> where should feedback be wired to?
[02:06:57] <zeeshan> today was a good day
[02:06:57] <zeeshan> lol
[02:07:06] <pcw_home> encoder velocity *60
[02:07:57] <Tom_itx> so the scale output of the encoder
[02:08:05] <pcw_home> yes
[02:08:37] <Tom_itx> no wonder i'm getting nowhere
[02:09:42] <pcw_home> well you found that you need 0 P and I terms if you are running open loop
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[02:09:58] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/WoYWaK2.jpg
[02:10:02] <zeeshan> machined these babies today
[02:10:10] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/6Zsrdpo.jpg
[02:10:15] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/u8mGzbT.jpg
[02:10:53] <pcw_home> Elephant toe rings?
[02:11:35] <zeeshan> no idea :P
[02:11:49] <zeeshan> but all of them were within a thou on the OD
[02:13:23] <pcw_home> nice finish
[02:13:41] <zeeshan> chinese lathe ftw
[02:13:42] <zeeshan> !!
[02:14:09] <zeeshan> im dieing for slant bed lathe still though
[02:20:26] <Tom_itx> ok pid.command 500 feedback 270 output 612
[02:20:40] <Tom_itx> P .5
[02:22:03] <pcw_home> now with feedback you can probably use a higher P term
[02:22:41] <Tom_itx> up to 1.5 now and testing
[02:22:56] <zeeshan> pcw_home: my engineering buddy suggested that i have 2 tanks . one with 300C fluid and one with -20C fluid
[02:23:08] <zeeshan> and use proportional valves to control the flow rate of them mixing in a chamber
[02:23:10] <zeeshan> what do you think
[02:23:31] <zeeshan> said that way i can get pretty close to linear temperature change
[02:23:36] <pcw_home> yeah thats probably easier to control
[02:24:08] <zeeshan> this type of control would be temperature as a function of flow rate?
[02:25:30] <zeeshan> while in my current design its temperature as a function of current and temperature (for heat conduction) as a function of flow rate (for cold fluid)
[02:25:59] <zeeshan> in either the mixing chamber and my design, there do you think its reasonable to expect thermal lag
[02:26:17] <zeeshan> cause of the conduction and convection that needs to occur before the temp hits the setpoint @ the thermocouple?
[02:26:26] <zeeshan> - there
[02:26:57] <Tom_itx> ok with P at 2, going from a high rpm (3000) and command a S200 it winds up way beyond 5000
[02:27:08] <Tom_itx> so that must be close to the limit for P
[02:27:22] <Tom_itx> or i need to add limit2 in there
[02:27:49] <Tom_itx> if i bring it down in steps 3000 2000 1000 200 it does fine
[02:28:05] <zeeshan> whats limit2? :P
[02:28:19] <zeeshan> it2 − Limit the output signal to fall between min and max and limit its slew rate to less than maxv per second. When the signal is a position, this means that position and velocity are limited.
[02:28:22] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure pracically when that would ever happen... changing spindle speeds like that
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[02:33:36] <Tom_itx> i'm not getting 1000
[02:33:44] <Tom_itx> damn scrollback..
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[02:41:50] <pcw_home> "Tom_itx ok with P at 2, going from a high rpm (3000) and command a S200 it winds up way beyond 5000"
[02:41:51] <pcw_home> what is happening here is that the PID output is commanding in a reverse direction (but your hardware in not )
[02:42:00] <pcw_home> is not
[02:42:53] <Tom_itx> i lowered it a bit and started adding I
[02:43:12] <Tom_itx> P is 1 now
[02:43:19] <Tom_itx> I was 1 but is too high
[02:43:40] <Tom_itx> i get windup with certain conditions
[02:44:02] <pcw_home> This is the problem I was alluding to before...
[02:44:03] <pcw_home> P should probably be much higher but you have to avoid reversals
[02:44:58] <Tom_itx> well i know but i want to use rigid tapping
[02:45:34] <pcw_home> you can use the PID components max error to help a bit here
[02:47:18] <Tom_itx> with P at 1 and I at .5 i don't get windup
[02:48:16] <Tom_itx> well if i go to extremes i do
[02:49:53] <Tom_itx> well i gotta stop on this for tonight
[02:50:50] <Tom_itx> would the maxerrorI help with windup?
[02:50:56] <Tom_itx> or just maxerror?
[02:53:32] <pcw_home> say if you set max error to 100
[02:53:34] <pcw_home> I dont think your actual problem is so much windup as runaway if the PID output goes negative
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[02:54:11] <Tom_itx> i agree, just wasn't sure what to call it
[02:55:52] <pcw_home> actually this probably needs special handling to be safe
[02:56:09] <Tom_itx> that helped
[02:56:50] <Tom_itx> i can command 5000 then 200 and it doesn't run away now
[02:57:16] <Tom_itx> not sure why you would on a spindle but i don't want it to run away
[02:58:21] <pcw_home> if you add your reversal logic and limit the rate of change of the command that will help
[03:00:59] <Tom_itx> reverse is working as well
[03:01:11] <Tom_itx> i can increase the P and I but not tonight
[03:01:18] <Tom_itx> it's getting close
[03:01:25] <Tom_itx> appreciate your help
[03:01:35] <Tom_itx> maxerror is 200 atm
[03:01:52] <Tom_itx> seems to be within the limits of the hardware
[03:02:18] <Tom_itx> freewheeling, maxerror would be at it's worst
[03:02:27] <Tom_itx> and it seems ok at 200
[03:02:59] <Tom_itx> i'll work on P & I a bit more tomorrow
[03:11:49] <Tom_itx> zeeshan, looks good
[03:17:25] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUG9qYTJMsI This guys kinda funny anyone ever tried these blades?
[03:18:44] <PetefromTn_> ;)
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[03:23:11] <roycroft> so i discovered today what is harder than tapping stainless steel - tapping stainless steel that's gotten really hot
[03:28:10] <PetefromTn_> hate frackin' stainless man LOL
[03:28:25] <roycroft> yes, i grow weary of working with it
[03:28:32] <roycroft> it gets really shiny though
[03:29:30] <PetefromTn_> Like Tig welding with it, hate machining it
[03:29:54] <roycroft> making it shiny is a pain in the butt too
[03:30:43] <roycroft> but at the end of the day, it is nice having ss parts
[03:33:28] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: thank u
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[03:47:17] <furrywolf> zeeshan: I suggested mixing hot and cold fluids already. :P
[03:47:56] <zeeshan> i think a 300C reservior is prolly a bad idea
[03:47:56] <zeeshan> lol
[03:48:34] <furrywolf> which is why I suggested an inline heater.
[03:48:59] <zeeshan> will need a lot of capacity
[03:49:02] <zeeshan> shrug
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[03:58:05] <furrywolf> anyone have a 50A 125/250V twistlock female they want to sell me?
[03:58:49] <roycroft> inline or panel mount?
[03:58:53] <furrywolf> cheap
[03:59:04] <furrywolf> that is, I'll make do with whatever I can get cheap. :P
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[03:59:19] <roycroft> i might have something
[03:59:26] <roycroft> but i can't be bothered to go check tonight
[03:59:34] <furrywolf> lol
[03:59:35] <roycroft> tomorrow evening i can see what i ahve
[03:59:43] <furrywolf> I went to the local hardware store, and let's just say it wasn't cheap.
[04:01:42] <roycroft> no, they are not cheap
[04:01:47] <furrywolf> I bought a used jobsite power box and cord... need a receptacle to plug the cord into.
[04:01:51] <roycroft> and if i have one i won't sell it for cheap
[04:01:56] <roycroft> but i'll sell it for less than retail
[04:02:14] <roycroft> what is the connector type?
[04:02:16] <furrywolf> the hardware store wanted twice as much for just the receptacle as I paid for the jobsite box (a big nice one) and 50-100ft of 6/4 soow.
[04:02:56] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Amp-125-250-Volt-4-Wire-1-Phase-2-Pole-Twistlock-Receptacle-/261825797399
[04:04:28] <furrywolf> hrmm, there's two different ones in that photo. ignore that one.
[04:04:36] <roycroft> if i have one that's the type i would ahve
[04:04:37] <roycroft> have
[04:04:44] <roycroft> and i'd want at least that much for it
[04:04:46] <roycroft> that's cheap
[04:05:00] <roycroft> they're a whole lot more new
[04:05:07] <roycroft> and yes, there are two different types there
[04:05:08] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TWIST-LOCK-50A-125-250V-CONNECTOR-MISSING-COVER-USED-/321748728548
[04:05:31] <furrywolf> I might just buy that one (it's cheap) and wrap it in tape.
[04:05:44] <roycroft> and that's not the type i would ahve
[04:05:54] <roycroft> if i have one it's 3 wire + ground
[04:06:03] <roycroft> and it would be panel mount
[04:06:17] <roycroft> oh, wait, that second one you showed is 3 wire + ground
[04:06:48] <roycroft> i'm not sure why it says "125v/250v"
[04:07:33] <furrywolf> it's two hots, neutral, and ground.
[04:07:36] <furrywolf> the metal shell is the ground
[04:07:59] <roycroft> l5-50 is the nema twist-lock 125v/50a connector
[04:08:13] <roycroft> l6-50 is the nema twist-lock 250v/50a connector
[04:08:22] <roycroft> what i would have would be an l6-50
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[04:09:42] <furrywolf> I think it's an l14-50 or something
[04:09:48] <roycroft> http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=8776
[04:09:56] <roycroft> if i have one that's what i have
[04:10:44] <roycroft> l14-50 is a california standard, not a nema standard
[04:11:04] <furrywolf> yeah, that's the wrong one.
[04:11:09] <furrywolf> sec, let me go double-check it. lol
[04:13:16] * roycroft does not recognize the sovereignty of the golden bear state
[04:13:23] <furrywolf> yeah, it's definitely the one with 4 wires and teo outwards-facing tabs
[04:14:03] <furrywolf> http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?id=8773 very similar
[04:14:28] <zeeshan> why you being fancy with your twist lock!
[04:15:07] <furrywolf> s/teo/two
[04:15:31] <furrywolf> ?
[04:15:36] <zeeshan> use this
[04:16:06] <zeeshan> http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibcGetAttachment.jsp?cItemId=Uo.gn4ljpA678AZDSTaKIA
[04:16:06] <zeeshan> :D
[04:16:29] <zeeshan> 9 bux
[04:16:32] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-279-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00009W3AA
[04:16:52] <furrywolf> I got a nice box with male and female 50A twistlocks, 6 20A twistlocks and some other plugs (all with individual breakers), and somewhere between 50 and 100ft of 6/4 soow with matching 50a plugs
[04:17:56] <furrywolf> zeeshan: if you like amazon,
http://www.amazon.com/CEP-Marinco-6364M-Female-Connector/dp/B0012NEWH6/ref=sr_1_2?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1431317845&sr=1-2&keywords=50+125+250+twist-lock is the right one
[04:18:11] <zeeshan> 37 bux for a connector
[04:18:12] <zeeshan> jeez
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[04:19:11] <sector_0> are steel rod linear rails with bushings/linear bearings stable enough for milling aluminum?
[04:19:20] <furrywolf> unless thin, yes
[04:20:26] <furrywolf> the box I got is similar to
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Cable-01962-3R-02-Temporary-Distribution/dp/B003RRWNMQ/ref=sr_1_22?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1431317945&sr=1-22&keywords=50+125+250+twist-lock but I think it has a couple more outlets
[04:20:41] <zeeshan> fancy :D
[04:20:45] <zeeshan> ok its bed time
[04:20:47] <zeeshan> 12:20 am ;[
[04:20:53] <furrywolf> it's got four on each side, not three. heh.
[04:21:34] <sector_0> furrywolf, were you answering my question when you said "unless thin, yes"
[04:21:36] <sector_0> ?
[04:21:45] <furrywolf> sector_0: yes
[04:22:15] <furrywolf> obviously if you use little 10mm diameter rods and try to push a 1" roughing mill through a block of 6061, it's not going to work very well. :)
[04:23:15] <sector_0> furrywolf, so what gauge steel do you recommend for a 280mm span
[04:23:43] <sector_0> I kinda just used aluminum as a base but I didn't stop to think that they're different grade of aluminum
[04:23:44] <furrywolf> no clue. lol
[04:23:46] <Crom> 11"
[04:23:55] <furrywolf> zee is the expert at finite element analysis. :)
[04:24:33] <sector_0> I'll most be milling PCBs though
[04:24:50] <sector_0> I wanna just build a little desktop size mill
[04:25:15] <furrywolf> for pcbs you could build it out of bamboo poles and it'd be fine...
[04:25:22] <Crom> hmm 280 that's within the work area of a 3040, mine has 12mm rods and linear bearings
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[04:25:50] <sector_0> Crom, oh ok
[04:25:59] <sector_0> I was also thinking about doing this though...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDjUn1ZxcRU
[04:26:00] <Crom> the rods are 100mm center to center apart
[04:26:01] <roycroft> unless the gigahertz is gonna be really big
[04:26:15] <Crom> it's ok for going REAL slow on AL
[04:26:16] <roycroft> in which case you should definitely use titanium clad with carbon fibre
[04:27:05] <sector_0> Crom, what do you think about the method in that video?
[04:27:06] <Crom> I'd prefer to have 20mm rods 200mm apart with the Z rods 16mm or 20mm 140mm apart
[04:27:21] <Crom> looking
[04:38:49] <Crom> like it, couple of notes, I'd make a strap filler to keep the din rail from flexing and I'd add light strap tensioners between the screws holding the bearings
[04:40:00] <Crom> _I/--|--\I_ I being the screws, | being the tension screw with a nut under the strap _/--\_ in the middle
[04:45:42] <Crom> the din rail is good for one direction, you'd get flexing in the other like a X ray, you'd get Y direction flex
[04:48:15] <sector_0> Crom, I don't understand the last part about the X-ray
[04:50:18] <sector_0> also, be very frank...
[04:50:41] <sector_0> which is better this method or steel rods with linear bearings/bushings?
[04:55:30] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
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[05:01:13] <Crom> X axis I meant X way
[05:01:43] <Crom> if you supported in | direction you'll get flex in -- direction
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[05:03:13] <Crom> which is why I'd like V groove bearings on a very stiff rail, like plywood capped with angle aluminum or angle iron if you bearings are big enough
[05:04:15] <Crom> same idea as the din rail, just alot more bracing against flex across the rail
[05:04:41] <sector_0> oh i understand now
[05:05:08] <Crom> <====> where <> are angle iron or AL and ==== is MDF, plywood, oak, ...
[05:05:08] <sector_0> I saw that Idea and thought about doing it be i dunno yet
[05:05:59] <sector_0> ohhh
[05:06:17] <sector_0> I though you meant like _|==|_
[05:06:38] <sector_0> where _| is the angle iron and == is the mdf
[05:06:44] <Crom> I've seen that done as well but again the flex issue
[05:08:23] <Crom> better off getting strap and sandwich between angle iron and put a screw/bolt every 6"
[05:08:31] <Crom> 15cm
[05:11:08] <sector_0> ok
[05:11:37] <sector_0> I think the rod bushing combo is better
[05:11:56] <sector_0> simpler to setup at least
[05:16:50] <sector_0> thanks for the help though
[05:16:52] <Crom> I'm going with the plywood with angle iron and regualar 608xx bearings
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[05:16:58] <sector_0> gonna go to bed now
[05:17:21] <Crom> nite
[05:17:36] <sector_0> night
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[05:59:36] <XXCoder1> whooo
[05:59:37] <XXCoder1> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/05/a-quick-look-at-logic-supplys-fanless-industrial-mini-desktop/
[05:59:46] <XXCoder1> sounds like great cnc machine
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[07:10:24] <Deejay> moin
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[07:12:51] <XXCoder1> hey Deejay
[07:15:10] <Jymmm> Did you guys know you can use Polyurethane hose for fuel line?
[07:16:35] <XXCoder1> nope
[07:16:55] <Jymmm> http://www.amazon.com/Parts-Unlimited-Blue-Polyurethane-Fuel/dp/B0031BW7YM
[07:17:31] <Jymmm> Doesn't stand up well to heat or sun/UV exposure though.
[07:17:52] <Jymmm> excessive heat that is
[07:18:15] <Jymmm> That means this would work
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Amflo-1-4-in-x-25-ft-Polyurethane-Air-Hose-12-25E/202205318?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal1_rr-_-202205320-_-202205318-_-N
[07:19:07] <Jymmm> as long as there is no alcohol (ehtanol?)...
http://www.usplastic.com/knowledgebase/article.aspx?contentkey=474
[07:20:04] <Jymmm> I bought 4ft of 1/4" rubber fuel hose today and it was $8 =(
[07:20:40] <Jymmm> Had I known, I would have gotten the PU stuff for what I'm doing.
[07:20:45] <Jymmm> (maybe)
[07:21:16] <XXCoder1> lots gas now has ethnol in it now
[07:21:40] <XXCoder1> good thing those hoses wasnt standard hose for fuel lol or we'd be in trouble by now
[07:21:58] <Jymmm> I'm just ot sure if enthanol is "alcohol" in this context.
[07:22:13] <XXCoder1> it basically is
[07:22:15] <Jymmm> Heh, no shit. give them 6 months.
[07:22:19] <XXCoder1> wood version
[07:22:24] <Jymmm> Yeah, I figured.
[07:22:45] <XXCoder1> well or corn
[07:22:57] <Jymmm> It for extended run on my generator but would have liked 6ft instead
[07:23:22] <Jymmm> But when the hose costs more than the fitting by double, that's a bit much.
[07:23:30] <XXCoder1> yeah
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[07:24:56] <Jymmm> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Watts-3-16-in-O-D-x-3-32-in-I-D-x-10-ft-Vinyl-Microfuel-Line-HSUFD10/204407921
[07:25:04] <XXCoder1> check this out
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1598272670/chip-the-worlds-first-9-computer/video_share
[07:25:11] <XXCoder1> wonder how well it would run a cnc
[07:25:25] <XXCoder1> fancy
[07:28:30] <Jymmm> It's cute.
[07:28:42] <Jymmm> I'm starting to play with ESP8266 though.
[07:36:08] <XXCoder1> interesting
[07:36:11] <XXCoder1> how flexable is it
[07:36:15] <XXCoder1> linux disto on it?
[07:37:35] <Jymmm> Heh, no. It's a wifi-to-serial module.
[07:37:44] <XXCoder1> ahh
[07:37:47] <Jymmm> Glorified arduino if you like
[07:37:59] <Jymmm> runs at 80MHz
[07:38:09] <XXCoder1> chip I plan to have fun with it
[07:38:15] <XXCoder1> run display software on my nook
[07:38:26] <XXCoder1> see if can run as weather display
[07:38:27] <Jymmm> Well, these are like $2.50/each
[07:39:07] <Jymmm> you can attach a dallas one wire temp chip and then toss there whereever and read it via wifi
[07:39:14] <XXCoder1> http://the-digital-reader.com/2015/05/10/energy-sistem-pro-ereader-launches-carta-android-4-2/ this probably can directly run
[07:39:22] <XXCoder1> but then why opay more money lol
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[07:40:38] <Jymmm> XXCoder1:
http://nathan.chantrell.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/esp8266_mqtt_oled_display.jpg
[07:40:51] <Jymmm> It has a mcu on it
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[07:42:18] <XXCoder1> nice
[07:42:32] <XXCoder1> theres epaper stuff for arduino now
[07:42:43] <XXCoder1> silly thing is smaller then any ereader yet more expensive
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[07:43:00] <Jymmm> I have a 5" phoen for that
[07:43:07] <XXCoder1> epaper phone?
[07:43:17] <Jymmm> epaper?
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[07:43:33] <XXCoder1> grayscale paper-like display
[07:43:41] <XXCoder1> tend to be on ebook readers
[07:43:48] <Jymmm> eInk?
[07:43:58] <XXCoder1> yeah epaper is another name
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[07:44:07] <XXCoder1> eink always felt bit awkward dunno lol
[07:44:30] <XXCoder1> http://www.embeddedartists.com/products/displays/lcd_27_epaper.php
[07:44:40] <XXCoder1> 30 euro, thats basically 50 bucks
[07:44:50] <XXCoder1> you can find used kindle or nook for half that
[07:45:03] <XXCoder1> an 6" is MUCH bigger
[07:45:09] <Jymmm> No thanks, I'll stick with my phone for that
[07:45:14] <XXCoder1> yeah
[07:45:50] <Jymmm> brb
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[07:49:43] <Jymmm> Gawd I love my new cart =)
[07:49:54] <XXCoder1> your new walmart cart?
[07:50:03] <XXCoder1> or was it target one?
[07:50:05] <XXCoder1> heh
[07:51:39] <Jymmm> 31" wide, 21" deep, 43" tall, three shelves total, welded 1.5" sq tubing, on chunky casters!
[07:52:00] <XXCoder1> pretty lkarge allright
[07:52:17] <Jymmm> PERFECT working height for me
[07:52:24] <XXCoder1> largest cart at work is 5 feet by 10 feet long
[07:52:37] <XXCoder1> usually used for large parts or LOTS parrts
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[07:52:50] <Jymmm> casters roll in all directions
[07:52:58] <XXCoder1> nice indeed
[07:53:14] <XXCoder1> I need to get more workshop stands so I have something to put my cnc royter on.
[07:53:14] <Jymmm> I got it for $20 too, even the gu ringing me up was surprised
[07:54:14] <XXCoder1> thats decent
[07:54:29] <Jymmm> I cna tuck it in a corner when not using it, or pull it out of the way, and use as needed. Plus just store a couple of things below as well
[07:55:18] <Jymmm> KILLS my back to work on a low bench/table leaning over.
[07:55:50] <Jymmm> heavy as hell though =)
[07:58:29] <XXCoder1> thats good actually
[07:58:41] <XXCoder1> prevents from "cart roll" when heavy part is offset on it
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[08:09:30] <Jymmm> Yeah, just a pain to un/load it from the car =)
[08:10:03] <Jymmm> it has locking casters as well
[08:11:40] <XXCoder1> nice
[08:15:08] <XXCoder1> hmm just noticed
[08:15:18] <XXCoder1> android dont have "no wallpaper" option
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[08:45:27] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: Kinda, you want mine?
[08:45:50] <XXCoder1> nah live wallpaper is better, ironically
[08:46:01] <XXCoder1> I just used basic clock one and removed seconds
[08:46:18] <XXCoder1> so it dont update often, and uses less memory than that massive default wallpaper
[08:49:56] <Jymmm> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.RemoveWallpaper
[08:50:49] <XXCoder1> lol
[08:51:36] <XXCoder1> I can literally write that in seconds
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[08:53:13] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: What apps have you created?
[08:53:36] <XXCoder1> windyflower, node battle, pixelart
[08:56:40] <Jymmm> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bigduckgames.fireworksarcade
[08:56:59] <XXCoder1> yours?
[08:57:16] <XXCoder1> never was any good on figet games
[08:57:16] <Jymmm> nah
[08:57:35] <XXCoder1> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=rolf.livewallpaper.windyflowers
[08:58:06] <XXCoder1> aw 2 guys rated it 2 stars lol
[08:59:30] <Jymmm> lol
[09:00:05] <XXCoder1> not surpised someone rated node battle one star. its bit out of date
[09:00:21] <XXCoder1> ginderbread ruined it with different rending :(
[09:00:23] <XXCoder1> Gonna fix it
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[09:01:53] <Jymmm> heh
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[09:06:49] <XXCoder1> well its nice and functional notepad tablet now
[09:07:03] <XXCoder1> it cant do any other shit lol
[09:07:16] <XXCoder1> I will bring it to work soon
[09:07:20] <XXCoder1> with some crappy keyboard
[09:07:47] <Jymmm> Get a M$ wireless kybd =)
[09:07:56] <XXCoder1> lol its not worth it
[09:08:04] <XXCoder1> I'll just grab $3 usb keyboard
[09:08:05] <XXCoder1> used
[09:08:21] <XXCoder1> it was so amazing bad. it cant even run youtube
[09:08:23] <Jymmm> Wise choice for SO many reasons
[09:08:26] <XXCoder1> browser runs very slowly
[09:08:47] <XXCoder1> I took it down to barebones so it actually runs.
[09:09:05] <XXCoder1> theres older cm5 for it but I could never find a copy of it
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[09:09:23] <Jymmm> no clue.
[09:09:37] <XXCoder1> no time machine either? drat
[09:09:55] <Jymmm> TM on andriod?
[09:10:05] <XXCoder1> TM?
[09:10:12] <Jymmm> Time Machine
[09:10:18] <XXCoder1> oh lol
[09:10:29] <XXCoder1> heh if someone found a way.. and it was a software solution.. lol
[09:10:40] <XXCoder1> everyone would time travel. well besides no tech people
[09:10:53] <Jymmm> Hell, there's nothign straight forward to backup android as it is
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[09:12:13] <Jymmm> What kind of fucked up OS restricts what you can out where in a file system. (SD cards)
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[09:12:23] <XXCoder1> happy mothers day heh
http://unearthedcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Unearthed-MothersDay-1405-1-web.jpg
[09:12:28] <XXCoder1> yeah
[09:12:37] <XXCoder1> I just finally rooted my phone
[09:12:43] <XXCoder1> so its much nicer
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[09:13:28] <Jymmm> too many projects right now to even think of that.
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[09:14:06] <Jymmm> Well, sorta
[09:14:19] <XXCoder1> I had to do it in bit weird way
[09:14:26] <XXCoder1> first I flashed older kernel to phone
[09:14:35] <XXCoder1> rooted it, then flashed current kernel
[09:14:46] <XXCoder1> I then renamed otacerts.zip so it now can't update
[09:15:11] <Jymmm> updating will deroot it?
[09:15:17] <XXCoder1> sometimes
[09:15:37] <Jymmm> wtf is an OPEN SOURCE OS fucking around liek that for?
[09:16:10] <Jymmm> sorry, just a pet peeve
[09:16:24] <Jymmm> Don't fuck with my shit, mkay
[09:16:31] <XXCoder1> its companies that do that
[09:16:46] <Jymmm> what companies?
[09:16:59] <XXCoder1> like samsung, so on
[09:17:03] <XXCoder1> hardware producters
[09:17:06] <Jymmm> ah
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[13:26:55] <Jymmm> How shipping containers are made…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7l6AQN1KV0
[13:27:42] <SpeedEvil> Hah.
[13:27:47] <SpeedEvil> Sunrise@0:20
[13:28:03] <SpeedEvil> I think I would want cylinders of nitrogen and oxygen, and not for welding before visiting
[13:28:10] <furrywolf> hrmm, I'm impressed. the battery for my paslode nailer has come surprisingly back to life. been pulling 2.5A from it for 15 minutes now, and it's only a 1.3ah battery.
[13:29:34] <Jymmm> I need another nitrogen tank
[13:29:59] <Jymmm> well, want a 2nd one, or larger one at least.
[13:30:29] <furrywolf> I've never needed nitrogen.
[13:32:07] <SpeedEvil> Why N?
[13:32:10] <Jymmm> Great when you want no water in your air
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[13:32:29] <furrywolf> air dryer. :P
[13:32:51] <Jymmm> I cheaper than cans of air, fill tires, fire supression
[13:33:17] <Jymmm> Yeah, fuck air dryers, my mirrors are more expensive than that to replace
[13:34:11] <Jymmm> on the laser that is
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[13:35:38] <Jymmm> plus also when you want an oxygen free environment
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[13:36:57] <furrywolf> I use CO2 for things like that
[13:37:03] <furrywolf> you fit a lot more in a tank
[13:37:05] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: I find that very useful for door-door salesmen
[13:37:54] <furrywolf> that factory needs more robots
[13:38:06] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: usually just cleaning your shotgun will resolve that
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[13:38:53] <SpeedEvil> Sure. But a small sign 'low oxygen environment' legally protects you 100% when they come into the porch. Plus, free fertiliser.
[13:39:37] <Jymmm> Tank exchange $21 for 40cf, $26 for 80cf
[13:40:11] <Jymmm> out the door.
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[13:40:27] <furrywolf> I was at someone's house with my dog once. the door-to-door religion salesmen came by. he yelled for my dog to sic 'em. they took off running like you wouldn't believe. my dog, being friendly, had no clue what he was talking about, but they had no way of knowing this...
[13:40:50] <dirty_d> it works, poorly, but it works
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0o6zV04_1Uo
[13:41:22] <SpeedEvil> How DIY are we talking?
[13:41:35] <SpeedEvil> 555, megasquirt, arduino, raspberry pi, FPGA?
[13:41:44] <SpeedEvil> Or all five?
[13:42:09] <dirty_d> stm32 and a pcb i made to drive two mosfets
[13:42:21] <dirty_d> and a carb converted to a fuel injected throttle body
[13:42:40] <SpeedEvil> Interesting
[13:42:40] <dirty_d> the problem is that i have a single 48lb/hr injector
[13:42:43] <furrywolf> Jymmm: co2 is 9cf/lb. a 20lb co2 tank is this 180cf. the whole turning-into-a-liquid thing lets you cram a lot more in. :)
[13:42:55] <SpeedEvil> dirty_d: and it doesn't really want to go down that low?
[13:43:07] <dirty_d> at idle the pulse width is so low that the majority of the time the valve is opeing and closing, so its hard to accurately meter the fuel
[13:43:25] <SpeedEvil> dirty_d: can't you get a smaller injector?
[13:43:39] <dirty_d> it runs, just really rich, i can lean it out, but then sometimes it wont start back up becauxe its too lean, and the injectors might not even be opening
[13:43:47] <dirty_d> its like right on the edge of opening and not opening
[13:44:02] <dirty_d> SpeedEvil, yea ideally it should be about 30lb/hr
[13:44:11] <dirty_d> i could also lower the pressure to 20psi uinstead of 45
[13:44:21] <SpeedEvil> You have read the megasquirt docs?
[13:44:32] <dirty_d> a little bit
[13:44:35] <SpeedEvil> Enriching when starting is a thing
[13:44:36] <Jymmm> furrywolf: c02 condensation, need water free
[13:44:42] <dirty_d> yea i thought about that
[13:44:43] <SpeedEvil> Even in stock vehicles.
[13:45:00] <dirty_d> have it use like 1.5 times as much fuel for the first few seconds of running or something
[13:45:05] <furrywolf> dirty_d: think of what a choke does, and emulate that. :)
[13:45:34] <dirty_d> do you think its a bad idea to have it only inject every 3 ignition events at idle?
[13:45:50] <dirty_d> that way it would be a longer pulse and i could more accurately meter the fuel
[13:46:06] <dirty_d> but the 3rd stroke probably wont get as much fuel
[13:46:20] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: building some ECU's myself
[13:46:21] <furrywolf> yes, you could indeed emulate an old hit-and-miss engine in software. :P
[13:46:43] <dirty_d> i dont think the engine sucks all the fuel out of the carb in 3 cycles though
[13:46:45] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: what are you using for software/firmware?
[13:46:50] <dirty_d> its always pretty wet in there
[13:46:57] <dirty_d> i just wrote it myself
[13:47:01] <dirty_d> pretty simple
[13:47:09] <CaptHindsight> yes and no
[13:47:55] <dirty_d> at idle the fuel kinda sits on the closed throttle plate
[13:48:01] <CaptHindsight> also making an stm32 design
[13:48:05] <dirty_d> so i dont think it would be starved at the 3rd intake stroke
[13:48:29] <dirty_d> i just used my stm32f3discovery and stuck all the stuff in a watertight tupperware container
[13:48:32] <furrywolf> you're injecting over the throttle plate? that's a bad idea.
[13:48:44] <CaptHindsight> http://openlunchbox.com/smf/index.php?board=36.0 but the micro is on a small module so it's can be swapped to work with other EFI applications
[13:48:46] <dirty_d> yea, it was really the only place i could put it, but why?
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[13:49:29] <dirty_d> at idle the air going past the plate would be at high velocity, so it would better atomize the fuel there
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[13:49:44] <furrywolf> more delay, condensation (the change in pressure causes the air to cool and the fuel to condense back out of the mixture), etc. the things efi does better than carbs. lol
[13:49:45] <SpeedEvil> dirty_d: Are you monitoring the airflow?
[13:49:48] <dirty_d> and at full throttle everything is wide open anyway
[13:50:03] <dirty_d> SpeedEvil, not directly, just using a map sensor and ve lookup vs RPM
[13:50:03] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: rusefi did the same
[13:50:14] <furrywolf> no, it doesn't help it atomize... the temperature drop does the opposite.
[13:50:32] <dirty_d> hmm
[13:50:36] <furrywolf> this is why carbs on vehicles are always heated. it's an annoying drawback of carbsl
[13:50:45] <dirty_d> they are?
[13:50:49] <dirty_d> i didnt know that
[13:51:04] <furrywolf> usually by heating the intake manifold or heating the charge air, or both.
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[13:51:31] <dirty_d> i noticed that the intake manifold pressure is 0.85 bar at idle
[13:51:34] <furrywolf> if you don't heat the intake, the cold air makes the fuel condense back onto it.
[13:51:39] <dirty_d> taht seems kinda high to me
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[13:51:55] <dirty_d> but it hink it might have been because it was so rich i neded to open the throttle more to get it to idle
[13:52:10] <furrywolf> and to pass smog laws, most later carb vehicles preheated the air too, usually with a shield around the exhaust pipes they pulled the fresh air through.
[13:53:15] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: you might be able to use rusefi with some minor mods to your pinout
http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page
[13:53:23] <dirty_d> CaptHindsight, whats it do the same?
[13:53:27] <furrywolf> yeah, that is rather high.
[13:53:31] <CaptHindsight> he also use the stm32f dicovery board
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[13:53:43] <dirty_d> ahh
[13:54:14] <CaptHindsight> dirty_d: more features
[13:54:25] <dirty_d> if i used a higher voltage to drive the injector it would help too
[13:54:53] <dirty_d> but the way its set up, id have to also power the fuel pump from the same source
[13:55:29] <dirty_d> thats another problem, the pump drains the battery faster than the engine charges it
[13:55:45] <furrywolf> lol. smaller pump.
[13:55:59] <dirty_d> the ecu can lower the duty cycle of the fuel pump, so i might be able to lower it and break even or better
[13:56:12] <dirty_d> especially if i change to 20psi
[13:57:13] <furrywolf> if I get a subaru ee20, I'll probably work on my own ecu... but for the swaps I've done I've just used a stock setup.
[13:57:35] <furrywolf> the subaru ecu with the ee20 is apparantly pretty difficult to make function without the entire rest of the vehicle hooked up to it.
[13:57:58] <dirty_d> i have a bluetooth module connected to my ecu that my phone connects to to tune it
[13:58:14] <dirty_d> i figure i can just stick my old phone in some plastic bags and tune it in the water like that
[13:58:56] <dirty_d> furrywolf, what are you using the engine for?
[13:59:07] <furrywolf> if I get one, I'd put it in my subaru. lol
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[13:59:42] <dirty_d> my subaru started leaking out of the transmission cooler
[13:59:53] <furrywolf> ewww, automatics.
[14:00:03] <dirty_d> tried to take the nut off to fix it, snapped
[14:00:16] <dirty_d> now its out of action until the new radiator gets delivered
[14:00:43] <furrywolf> 5spd dual-range swap.
[14:01:05] <dirty_d> meh, i would have prefered a 5 speed, but that car was a good deal so i just went with it
[14:01:34] <furrywolf> if you swap on the dual-range, you get real 4x4 too. :P
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[14:01:37] <furrywolf> s/on/in
[14:01:40] <dirty_d> dual range?
[14:01:52] <furrywolf> the one with the extra lever on the floor to shift to low-range
[14:02:04] <furrywolf> 1.6:1 additional reduction
[14:02:17] <dirty_d> what car has that?
[14:02:22] <dirty_d> i have a legacy
[14:03:00] <furrywolf> in the US they were sold in the '80s and early '90s, later in .au
[14:03:05] <dirty_d> ahh
[14:03:17] <furrywolf> .au got all the best bits.
[14:05:05] <dirty_d> hmm, i guess i dont really have to worry about idle actually, last tiem i used it i just had the idle screw all the way out so it does when you fall off
[14:05:12] <dirty_d> dies*
[14:05:24] <furrywolf> http://lh6.ggpht.com/_QD6NfijiIfo/SpvqAdc1DHI/AAAAAAAAAFc/kiaNooKTgUA/s800/subedrlever2.jpg looked like that, just like on a truck.
[14:05:26] <JT-Shop> CaptHindsight, what were you telling me yesterday?
[14:05:40] <dirty_d> it sinks if youre not at least on half throttle anyway
[14:07:14] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: I think it was that the solvent dyes for anodize and the water rinse out resin for casting are up on the website now
[14:07:29] <furrywolf> ... sinking is bad. this suggests major design improvements needed.
[14:07:40] <dirty_d> not actually sink, lol
[14:08:02] <dirty_d> its a stand up jet ski, so it doesnt actually support the weight of a person unless its moving pretty quick
[14:09:16] <JT-Shop> where is your web site
[14:09:24] <dirty_d> except my girlfriend, she gets on it and rides it 20 minutes on the first try
[14:09:33] <CaptHindsight> http://bucktownpolymers.com/anodize00.html the ROR is near the bottom
http://bucktownpolymers.com/rcpolymers00.html
[14:09:38] <dirty_d> right after i fell off it about 20 times in a row before i could make it 50 feet
[14:09:44] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: ^^
[14:10:44] <furrywolf> lol
[14:11:26] <dirty_d> should be a lot easier with the engine actually running well though
[14:11:48] <dirty_d> it had like a 5 second throttle response when it ran at all
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[14:15:14] <furrywolf> lol
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[14:21:53] <JT-Shop> you mix cyan and magenta for blue?
[14:23:56] <archivist> JT-Shop, yes see subtractive colour mixing
http://www.horrorseek.com/home/halloween/wolfstone/Lighting/colmix_ColorMixing.html
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[14:27:57] <CaptHindsight> http://filmmakeriq.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Additive-and-Subtractive-color.jpg it take a bit of getting used to since most people blend colors with paint or are used to RGB when creating web pages or writing software
[14:28:52] <archivist> us who work/worked with colour printers get used to id
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[14:37:45] <furrywolf> bbl, time for work
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[14:39:18] <CaptHindsight> archivist: since most resins are clear we use CMYK+W
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[14:40:49] <archivist> it is amazing how many think a 3 colour mix gives a full gamut
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[18:28:05] <furrywolf> I've got $40 in my wallet... going to head to the scrapyard today and see if I can find material for making an enclosure out of.
[18:28:23] <furrywolf> should I make the door out of aluminum, or plastic so you can see all the shiny bits? (and red fault lights)
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[18:30:04] <Rab> Scrapyard plastic is difficult to characterize. It may be old and brittle, or otherwise prone to cracking when machined or placed under stress. It also offers no electromagnetic shielding.
[18:30:17] <furrywolf> good point. alu it is.
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[18:38:28] <fogl> hello
[18:38:55] <fogl> is it possible to set the hal comp input/output as string?
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[18:47:50] <JT-Shop> TYPE - One of the HAL types: bit, signed, unsigned, or float
[18:48:10] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/comp.html#_syntax
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[18:50:14] <JT-Shop> fogl, you might look at message.comp
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=src/hal/components/message.comp;h=c7b53e0b3bdefec36d8c98781c99669104061ae4;hb=refs/heads/2.6
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[18:54:19] <witnit> what all variables can trigger an "joint following error"?
[18:54:31] <Jymmm> furrywolf: you said there is more gas in co2 than N tank. What if I used either one to pressurize a water tank... which would benefit me more?
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[18:57:30] <furrywolf> if you pressurize a water tank with co2, you end up with soda water. :P
[18:57:46] <roycroft> yes
[18:57:54] <roycroft> nitrogen is much better for that reason
[18:58:13] <furrywolf> it's only better if you're not trying to make soda. :P
[18:58:31] <roycroft> if you're trying to make soda you would not be asking if nitrogen is appropriate
[18:59:01] <furrywolf> lol
[18:59:08] <Jymmm> So even if the co2 inlet to the tank is in the open air space above the water level, that doens't matter?
[18:59:18] <furrywolf> correct.
[18:59:29] <roycroft> you're talking about a beer keg now :)
[19:00:15] <Jymmm> Ok, ignoring the soda water aspects for a moment... If I just wanted the longest/most volume/pressure in the water line, would co2 be better in the long run?
[19:01:01] <roycroft> why not use compressed air?
[19:01:14] <Jymmm> no electricity
[19:01:18] <roycroft> that's sure a lot cheaper than either of the other alteratives you mentioned
[19:01:22] <roycroft> compress it elsewhere :)
[19:01:34] <furrywolf> co2 in water is also highly acidic, so the entire system has to be stainless or plastic.
[19:01:41] <roycroft> yup
[19:01:44] <Jymmm> furrywolf: is it?
[19:01:46] <roycroft> pH will be like 3.5
[19:01:52] <furrywolf> specifically, it eats copper instantly, resulting in a rather toxic sludge.
[19:01:57] <Jymmm> hmm, good to know.
[19:02:38] <roycroft> stick an old (pre-1982) penny in a glass of coca cola
[19:02:40] <Jymmm> What I'm thinking here is rural self contained fire supression
[19:02:45] <furrywolf> people routinely end up in the ER from drinking sodas from machines with leaky check valves that let a little of the co2 solution back into the feed plumbing
[19:03:12] <Jymmm> Once that gas tank vale opens, let er flow
[19:03:46] <furrywolf> you don't want to be trying to handle soda water. lol
[19:04:00] <Jymmm> ?
[19:04:32] <Jymmm> not fire hose, but fire sprinkler heads
[19:04:34] <furrywolf> the normal solution is a little honda fire pump and a jerry can with stabil in it...
[19:04:35] <XXCoder1> so basically sparking soda is oretty acidic
[19:04:48] <XXCoder1> *water
[19:04:51] <roycroft> as i said, it will have a pH of about 3.5
[19:04:55] <furrywolf> seltzer water has baking soda added to make it less acidic
[19:05:09] <Jymmm> interesting
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[19:06:02] <furrywolf> Jymmm: the gas will be coming out of the water in the pipes. it'll cause all sorts of bad things to happen. water hammer as gas escapes allowing the flow to speed up then water hits the nozzle at high speed, etc. you really, really don't want bubbly water for your sprinklers. lol
[19:06:16] <Jymmm> Ok, is there another inert gas that has more bang for the buck in a 80CF tank?
[19:06:17] <JT-Shop> witnit, following error
[19:06:36] <furrywolf> no, nitrogen is the cheapest
[19:06:54] <furrywolf> you could use r134a or such, but by then you might as well just put in a halon system...
[19:06:58] <XXCoder1> our air is quite literally mostly nitrogen
[19:07:14] <XXCoder1> build air distiller
[19:07:16] <Jymmm> furrywolf: Ew, yeah no refrigerants. lol
[19:07:59] <furrywolf> I know! propane! it's cheap, it doesn't dissolve excessively in water... and it'll make the fire sprinkler system into a literal. :)
[19:08:13] <XXCoder1> :)
[19:08:22] <JT-Shop> damn muggy today
[19:08:23] * Jymmm grabs the marshmellows!
[19:08:38] <roycroft> if used in adequate volume propane can extinguish a fire
[19:08:52] <XXCoder1> Jymmm: as well as build your own air distiller so you can easily have near-pure nitrogen
[19:08:53] <roycroft> all you have to do is displace all the oxygen with propane
[19:09:05] <furrywolf> methinks propane's upper flammability limit is pretty high...
[19:09:32] <Jymmm> XXCoder1: I'll have to see whats involved in that.
[19:09:40] * furrywolf googles to check
[19:09:41] <XXCoder1> http://citizensciencequarterly.com/2011/05/liquid-nitrogen-generator/
[19:09:44] <roycroft> oil well fires are put out with explosions to displace the oxygen
[19:09:55] <_methods> yeah we use nitrogen generator here for our laser
[19:10:00] <furrywolf> air distillers are hard. most nitrogen I've seen generated is from membrane systems.
[19:10:02] <_methods> you need a beefy air compressor
[19:10:36] <_methods> they're rather expensive also
[19:10:59] <furrywolf> you can also use the output of a suitably configured oxygen concentrator... you get mostly oxygen out one end, and mostly nitrogen out the other... but membrane systems are much cheaper and more efficient.
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[19:11:39] <XXCoder1> yeah commerical ones is really expensive, that homebrew is $500 apparently
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[19:11:57] <furrywolf> propane's UEL is over 10%. you'd need a LOT of propane to put out a fire. :P
[19:12:00] <Jymmm> furrywolf: "membrane systems" ?
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[19:12:41] <Jymmm> I could probably find a medical oxygen concentrator on ebay/cl easy enough
[19:12:53] <furrywolf> https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=membrane+nitrogen+generator&oq=membrane+nitrogen+generator&gs_l=hp.3...1120.5199.0.5335.27.15.0.0.0.0.507.1225.3-2j0j1.3.0.msedr...0...1c.1.64.hp..24.3.1223._7dtv9PReBY
[19:13:47] <Jymmm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_generator
[19:14:17] <furrywolf> but, really, for a fire system, bottled gas is fine.
[19:14:41] <JT-Shop> hmm, I've lost LinuxCNC on this computer
[19:14:51] <Jymmm> Yeah, a nitrogen generator would let me refill tanks easily
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[19:15:09] <_methods> keep in mind that it's not the purest nitrogen
[19:15:16] <_methods> not sure if that matters for your application
[19:15:21] <furrywolf> but how often do you plan on refilling them? does your building catch fire regularly?
[19:15:25] <Jymmm> though, might be simpler just to have tanks refilled
[19:15:32] <roycroft> the best thing, of course, is to avoid having a fire in the first place
[19:15:39] <XXCoder1> yeah
[19:15:59] <_methods> an ounce of prevention is worth a nitrogen generator?
[19:16:00] <XXCoder1> could have more fun with distaller besides just fire stuff
[19:16:08] <Jymmm> furrywolf: I use my nitrogen tank for all kinds of stuff. This was just one idea to pressurized a gravity fed holding tank
[19:16:16] <furrywolf> for fire stuff, keep in mind there's a _lot_ of regulations you'll have to work with.
[19:16:29] <XXCoder1> not if outside zones
[19:16:32] <roycroft> if you really want to use co2, then you can make some beer, carbonate it in a keg with co2, drink the beer, and pee on the fire
[19:16:53] <_methods> the mckenzie brothers fire suppression system lol
[19:16:54] <furrywolf> XXCoder1: you're right, if you're in libya or something, there's probably fewer regulations. :P
[19:16:56] <Jymmm> furrywolf: This is something I might install in a shipping container
[19:17:06] <roycroft> how's it going, eh?
[19:17:09] <XXCoder1> er no fut
[19:17:11] <XXCoder1> fur
[19:17:12] <_methods> hosehead
[19:18:00] <_methods> you're a hoser, eh
[19:18:02] <Jymmm> furrywolf: some fire supression is better than none at all.
[19:18:16] <furrywolf> you'd probably want a dry standpipe system, where the plumbing is filled with nitrogen, and the tank isn't pressurized until needed.
[19:18:44] <Jymmm> Although, maybe just flooding the container with nitrogen itself might be enough
[19:19:05] <Jymmm> ...to displace the O2
[19:19:06] <furrywolf> for that small of a space, co2 might be easiest.
[19:19:30] <Jymmm> you call 40ft conaiter small?
[19:19:45] <furrywolf> co2 without water is quite effective.
[19:19:49] <furrywolf> yes. I call 320ft2 small.
[19:19:52] <XXCoder1> if its not intended for people to be in it, you might as well as add oxygen remover
[19:20:28] <Jymmm> Yeah, I'd be the bastard that would be in it and an EQ comes along =)
[19:20:30] <furrywolf> also, you didn't mention it was 40... could have been 20. :P
[19:21:34] <Jymmm> true
[19:21:43] <Jymmm> Might be 20ft, not sure yet.
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[19:22:57] <Jymmm> I just don't like the idea of no running water (beyond fire surpession)
[19:23:44] <Jymmm> and 5psi shower is no bueno...
http://terrylove.com/forums/index.php?attachments/static_pressure_gain-jpg.11232/
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[19:24:45] <furrywolf> you plan on showering in a shipping container?
[19:25:44] <Jymmm> furrywolf: LOL, maybe =) Nah, put a 300gal tote on TOP of the container has a holding tank
[19:26:05] <Jymmm> gravity fed
[19:26:25] <Jymmm> but use nitrogen to pressurize it if needed.
[19:27:51] <Jymmm> http://images.craigslist.org/00W0W_9n5myaeYxq6_600x450.jpg
[19:29:00] <SpeedEvil> Actually sealing containers is hard.
[19:29:03] <SpeedEvil> Large ones.
[19:29:11] <SpeedEvil> Atmospheric delta-p gets large
[19:29:26] <furrywolf> for liquid fuels, guidelines seem to say you need a 34% concentration. at 20x8x7ft, you'd have 1120ft3, and need 380ft3 of co2 to flood it. at 8ft3/gal, that's 48lbs, or a 50lb tank. a 50lb tank is about $75 or something to fill, and available at every welding shop.
[19:29:28] <SpeedEvil> You generally need bellows to avoid stuff exploding
[19:29:37] <furrywolf> so for $75 you can completely inert your container with co2.
[19:29:43] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: If first you evacuate it completely
[19:29:58] <fogl> JT-Shop, thank you for the info, if i understand the code the message.comp, it outputs the message (rtapi_print_msg) to dmesg. Is it possible to somehow read this message with some other .comp. I would like to send some data of variable length from one hal module to the other.
[19:30:06] <furrywolf> jumm: those totes are NOT pressure-rated. you can't pressurize one of them.
[19:30:09] <furrywolf> jymm
[19:30:13] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I suspect wet iron powder may be cheaper
[19:30:41] <furrywolf> Jymmm: where is your water coming from?
[19:30:47] <XXCoder1> Jymmm: whats your plan with tank anyway
[19:30:59] <SpeedEvil> I should read more scroll.
[19:31:23] <SpeedEvil> Shower pumps are commonly available.
[19:31:27] <SpeedEvil> And work well.
[19:31:37] <Jymmm> furrywolf: 50lb tank of co2 seems cool to flood the continer directly. As far as pressurizing the tote, it would be like at 30psi, not relaly all that much.
[19:32:11] <furrywolf> it won't hold 30psi. it probably won't hold 3psi.
[19:32:54] <furrywolf> what is filling the tank? are you driving it somewhere, or is it being filled by something in the area?
[19:33:18] <Jymmm> furrywolf: either city or water well
[19:33:51] <furrywolf> ... if you have city water, or a well pump, why do you need to repressurize it? lol
[19:34:13] <XXCoder1> pumping upwards
[19:34:14] <Jymmm> furrywolf: If well and no electricity or pump fails.
[19:34:35] <XXCoder1> Jymmm: could add solar and battery backup for pump
[19:34:57] <SpeedEvil> And backup pump
[19:35:13] <furrywolf> as I said, for fire use only, the standard option is a small gas or diesel pump.
[19:35:27] <Jymmm> I could, but a nitrogen tank seems the most idiot proof/least failure
[19:35:30] <furrywolf> for shower, just use an electric pump. lol
[19:35:30] <XXCoder1> wonder if theres enough termal difference to run stiring as pump lol
[19:35:46] <XXCoder1> definitely not in winter
[19:35:51] <furrywolf> from your questions, I suspect anything you build with nitrogen will be less reliable than an off-the-shelf solution.
[19:37:19] <furrywolf> as I said, you can _not_ just pressurize a random tote or tank. even at 30psi you need an actual pressure vessel.
[19:37:33] <furrywolf> and then you either have to vent the tank to fill it, or fill under pressure.
[19:37:51] <XXCoder1> Jymmm: can always make your own water tower lol
[19:38:11] <XXCoder1> I suspect its not easy and probaby not allowed unless you live outside any zoning
[19:39:11] <furrywolf> although, it would be rather amusing you watch you attempt to pressurize one of those totes. please make sure someone films it for youtube. :P
[19:40:30] <XXCoder1> https://youtu.be/FZ57acKJkRM
[19:41:34] * SpeedEvil ponders silly suggestion.
[19:41:44] <SpeedEvil> n*2l coke-bottles are fine at 65C
[19:42:33] <furrywolf> heh! above I guessed they probably wouldn't hold 3psi. they're tested at 2.9psi. :P
[19:43:00] <furrywolf> and that's for a fancy one, not a cheapo one
[19:43:34] <SpeedEvil> Hot water cylinders - pressurised from the mains - are common here, and rated to - IIRC - 50PSI
[19:44:24] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: coce bottles (the 1 liter PET kind) are good for 12 Bar!
[19:44:27] <Loetmichel> coke
[19:44:42] <XXCoder1> lets make tank out of bottles then lol
[19:44:52] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MZ9dzBZeFI it would figure someone else already filmed someone pressurizing one. :P
[19:45:03] <Loetmichel> thats 175 psi ;-)
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[19:45:38] <furrywolf> if you're set on nitrogen power for your fire system, how about a nitrogen powered water pump? just a big air motor screwed to a centrifical pump.
[19:46:14] <JT-Shop> better yet an air motor screwed to a triplex pump
[19:46:14] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: I'm actually sort-of-pondering making a tank for my compressor out of them
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[19:46:37] <Loetmichel> i dont know how well they take repeated stress to be sure
[19:46:37] <furrywolf> the popped tank in that video was at 14psi. you might note that its useful service pressure is well below that.
[19:46:59] <Loetmichel> furrywolf: to big in size
[19:47:10] <Loetmichel> if you wnat high pressure you need small vessels
[19:47:19] <Loetmichel> easier to get them to withstand that ;)
[19:47:24] <furrywolf> are you convinced yet that you are NOT pressurizing one to 30psi? :P
[19:47:27] <Loetmichel> use more if you need volume ;-)
[19:47:54] <furrywolf> Loetmichel: talk to jymm, not me. he wants to pressurize one to 30psi. :P
[19:48:02] <Loetmichel> hihi right
[19:48:07] <Loetmichel> not a good idea
[19:48:26] <Jymmm> 14psi burst
[19:48:48] <Jymmm> "No problem" instant delivery of 300gal =)
[19:48:52] <Spida> Loetmichel: I had a 1.5l coke bottle (PET) explode after being dropped about 30cm... bottom popped out, bottle shot up like a rocket.
[19:49:24] <Deejay> yeah, coke everywhere :D
[19:49:28] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: people have died due to hot water showers :(
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[19:49:48] <Loetmichel> Spida: single way recycling or the deposit bottle kind?
[19:50:16] <Jymmm> Then how does pex work for plumbing ?
[19:50:27] <Spida> I have see fire supression systems with > 100 50l bottles of argon though, that were intended to work similarly: drop the bottles to open the valves. the room to be flooded had several square meteres of pressure relief openings...
[19:50:39] <JT-Shop> soda carbonation pressure is 25-30 psig
[19:50:46] <SpeedEvil> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-506604/Water-tank-fault-scalded-baby-girl-death-known-unreliable.html though that was a wierd one
[19:51:21] <SpeedEvil> hot water tank thermostat failed, leading to boiling. The overflow vent was inside the cold water tank, which was not hot rated.
[19:51:34] <Loetmichel> spida: the kind of coke bottles that withstand 175 psi are the 1 liter deposit pet bottles
[19:51:38] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: lovely
[19:51:41] <Loetmichel> the ones with about 2mm thick walls
[19:51:41] <SpeedEvil> the continual boiling and overflow of water heated the cold tank and caused it eventuially to collapse
[19:52:11] <Loetmichel> not the ones that collapse as soon as you open them
[19:53:08] <Jymmm> Heh, I saw a flow pump collapse a 5000gal SS tank once... scared the fuck out of everyone
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[19:54:08] <furrywolf> grrr, stupid fucking internet connection.
[19:54:23] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> 14psi burst, of a new tank in good condition, AFTER severe damage to the steel frame. a used tank that's been out in the sun a bit, burst is going to be much lower. a service pressure is always a fraction of burst pressure for safety rating.
[19:54:24] <Jymmm> someone forgot to open the top valve
[19:54:26] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> according to one google result, the pressure rating is 2.9psi. and they apparantly fail at that pressure.
[19:54:26] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> and that burst was pretty mild because it was filled entirely with water. fill one 1/4 with water and 3/4 with 30psi gas and watch what happens...
[19:54:31] <SpeedEvil> just turn it backwards, and it'll be fine
[19:54:34] <furrywolf> <furrywolf> Jymmm: you really need to do some research before coming up with ideas. :P
[19:54:54] <Spida> Loetmichel: I think it was 1.5l, but certainly deposit, not one way.
[19:55:29] <furrywolf> bbl, I'm off to the scrapyard to look for enclosure-building materials.
[19:55:33] <Spida> Loetmichel: it was at the end of it's lifespan, though, like the other bottles of the same case... very brittle, cracks starting to show at the bottom
[19:57:07] <Loetmichel> ok then
[19:57:41] <Loetmichel> i used to make water rockets out of 1l coke and fanta bottles, thats why i know they fail above 12 bar
[19:57:55] <XXCoder1> heh I miss toy water rocket
[19:58:00] <Loetmichel> and usually the plastic cap slips off the thread, not the bottle fails
[19:58:33] <furrywolf> put a hose clamp around the cap
[19:58:34] <furrywolf> bbl
[19:58:45] <XXCoder1> not when you wanna launch it
[19:58:54] <Loetmichel> furrywolf: actuall its quite nice that they fail in that way
[19:59:01] <Loetmichel> kind of a pressure relief valve
[19:59:13] <Loetmichel> better than trwowing PET shreds around
[20:02:09] <XXCoder1> indeed
[20:02:19] <XXCoder1> hmm dry ice powered rocket
[20:02:27] <XXCoder1> wonder how well that would work
[20:02:57] <SpeedEvil> Not very well.
[20:03:10] <SpeedEvil> There is no reason for most of it to evaporate
[20:03:46] * JT-Shop is sure glad he had a leather glove on or he would be missing a bunch of skin right not
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[20:04:30] <Jymmm> HAHA this is funny...
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/fod/5014567955.html
[20:05:26] <Jymmm> and the follow up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ca_sxbu6FoA
[20:07:35] <_methods> JT-Shop: grinder?
[20:08:16] <JT-Shop> twisted wire wheel on 4 1/2" angle grinder
[20:08:29] <JT-Shop> I hate them almost as much as sand blasting
[20:08:30] <_methods> yeah man they'll get ya
[20:08:48] <_methods> always tuck in the shirt too heheh
[20:10:24] <JT-Shop> damn I have to clean the last part in HCL... dunno if I'm up for that today
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[20:11:08] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: what are you cleaning?
[20:11:34] <_methods> you anodizing or something?
[20:13:00] <JT-Shop> powder coating but it has some rust inside the tube
[20:13:07] <_methods> ah
[20:13:09] <JT-Shop> steel part Jymmm
[20:13:46] <JT-Shop> I wish I had the balls to pour acid in my anodizing line and fire it up
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[20:14:01] <_methods> heheh
[20:14:15] <JT-Shop> it's ready to go AFAIK
[20:16:22] <_methods> painting/powdercoating/anodizing i leave to the pros
[20:16:42] <_methods> its usually fairly cheap and i don't have to worry about the mess
[20:17:16] <_methods> and chrome plate too lol
[20:17:29] <_methods> you couldn't pay me enough to mess with that stuff
[20:20:40] <JT-Shop> no one near me does that kind of stuff, the nearest one is 1 1/2 hours from me one way
[20:20:52] <JT-Shop> the heck with it I'm cleaning it
[20:21:21] * Jymmm hands JT-Shop respirator
[20:21:24] <JT-Shop> _methods, I'm powder coating the rack I made for the BlueWing
[20:21:37] <XXCoder1> cheese lol
[20:21:52] <JT-Shop> up your nose?
[20:22:18] <XXCoder1> smoked cheese
[20:26:31] <_methods> oh we have a powder coater/painter right next door lol
[20:26:43] <_methods> but anodizing we ship or drop off
[20:26:49] <_methods> same with chrome
[20:26:52] <JT-Shop> the anodizer I use has a minimum dollar amount so I have to have a bunch of parts to send to them
[20:27:22] <JT-Shop> they are on the other side of the state from me so it takes UPS 3 days to get there
[20:27:30] <_methods> yeah that does suck
[20:28:06] <JT-Shop> the laser cutter I use is great! and has great prices I think
[20:30:19] <JT-Shop> the powder coater is out in the middle of nowhere Arkansas and has an oven big enough to fit a car in there
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[20:32:25] * Tom_itx read that as 'million dollar amount' the first time
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[20:33:11] <Tom_itx> one more nice reason to live in an aircraft town... plating & anodizing available
[20:33:53] <Tom_itx> a bud of mine used to get stuff done free if he was willing to wait for the right color batch to run
[20:34:10] <JT-Shop> heh a million dollar minimum wow
[20:34:43] <Tom_itx> got PID somewhat working on the spindle now
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[20:34:54] <JT-Shop> when I get the air filter parts anodized I can piggy back other small parts if I want
[20:34:59] <Tom_itx> gonna ramp up the numbers a bit later on
[20:35:01] <JT-Shop> cool
[20:35:18] <Tom_itx> way too much effort for just a sherline for sure
[20:35:20] <JT-Shop> spindle PID is a bit different than an axis IIRC
[20:35:29] <Tom_itx> yeah velocity
[20:36:01] <Tom_itx> soon as i remount the spindle to the machine i'm gonna try tapping some stuff
[20:36:07] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/spindle.html
[20:36:26] <JT-Shop> tap some butter first
[20:36:47] <Tom_itx> pcw suggested leaving FF0 at 1 and using P & I
[20:37:10] <JT-Shop> I was pretty sure I got that info from peter
[20:37:17] <Tom_itx> i've been tuning a bit different than that
[20:37:35] <Tom_itx> i set P just under the setpoint at any given speed
[20:37:49] <Tom_itx> and am using I to catch up without overshooting
[20:38:03] <Tom_itx> i had to add a limit for extreme conditions
[20:38:19] <Tom_itx> like S5000 then issuing a S100
[20:38:22] <Tom_itx> it would run away
[20:38:48] <Tom_itx> it's not something you would normally do but it should be tested anyway
[20:39:53] <Tom_itx> i did similar to your page, just used P instead of FF0
[20:39:56] <JT-Shop> when turning with CSS you can go from slow to fast and back
[20:40:08] <Tom_itx> yeah on a lathe
[20:40:31] <Tom_itx> mill spindle is more constant speed per tool
[20:40:38] <JT-Shop> yea
[20:40:47] <JT-Shop> except for tapping
[20:41:04] <JT-Shop> then it is as fast as possible reverse
[20:41:26] <Tom_itx> my reverse has a pause
[20:41:35] <Tom_itx> it doesn't snap to reverse
[20:41:45] <Tom_itx> i did that so it wouldn't blow out the control
[20:41:51] <Tom_itx> since it wasn't really designed for that
[20:42:21] <Tom_itx> the control has a settable pause time as well, i'm just enabling it
[20:42:30] <Tom_itx> i need to shorten it a bit once i get it all working right
[20:42:38] <Tom_itx> it's just a pot adjustment on the driver
[20:42:58] <Tom_itx> i just use lcnc to enable it during switching FWD/REV
[20:43:13] <Tom_itx> may save the relay contacts a bit
[20:43:18] <Tom_itx> as well
[20:45:14] <JT-Shop> test thread some air
[20:45:42] <JT-Shop> I guess it won't matter as the axis follows the spindle
[20:46:24] <Tom_itx> right
[20:47:36] <Tom_itx> if the axis has too much backlash comp it could pull the thread
[20:47:57] <JT-Shop> dang part is still bubbling, must have been more rust on the inside than I thought
[20:48:05] <Tom_itx> it all gets dumped in on the first axis direction change
[20:48:19] <JT-Shop> yea, backlash comp is bad
[20:49:23] <Tom_itx> i need to see how much there is on z
[20:51:12] <Tom_itx> i wonder how FF0 differs from P
[20:53:37] <Tom_itx> looks like P is the error multiplied by the P gain and FF0 is the commanded value multiplied by FF0
[20:54:08] <Tom_itx> similar but different
[20:54:57] <Jymmm> Heh, guess I'll have to find one of these...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ahydd_9lXYY#t=329
[20:55:01] <Deejay> gn8
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[20:56:27] <Tom_itx> Jymmm it'll plug up with leaves
[20:56:46] <Tom_itx> well the ones that use streams will
[20:57:04] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Yeah, that's what screens are for =)
[20:57:16] <Tom_itx> she even talks about clogs
[20:57:31] <Jymmm> I like her donkey =)
[20:57:36] <Tom_itx> 1:37 she gives it a blowjob
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[20:59:56] <Jymmm> Eh, I haven't had to think about non-city water for a very long time.
[21:01:54] <Jymmm> Hell, I don't even know where to find a mech pump locally, or parts for one
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[21:05:05] <MattyMatt> gourds on a rope
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[21:06:04] <MattyMatt> with the donkey on the windlass
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[21:10:01] <MattyMatt> how daft is THIS idea. instead of buying a miniature qctp toolholder, a miniature insert tool holder, and miniature inserts, would it make sense to buy a larger insert holder and grind the qctp dovetails into the shank?
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[21:11:08] <MattyMatt> sherline do a qc holder that takes an insert directly like that
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[21:13:21] <_methods> that would work the holders are hardened though and can be a pain to machine without carbide
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[21:14:36] <rob_h> apart from cheap holders they never seem very hard compared to your seco, walter etc
[21:15:47] <_methods> might be a dovetail cutter killer roughing out the area shouldn't be too big of a deal
[21:16:10] <_methods> but entry and exit for the dovetail will be hell
[21:16:16] <MattyMatt> I'd rough it with an angle grinder tbh :)
[21:16:32] <_methods> yeah probably your best bet
[21:17:05] <MattyMatt> maybe a braxed plat on top to hold the height adjuster
[21:17:10] <MattyMatt> brazed plae
[21:17:13] <MattyMatt> plate
[21:17:19] <_methods> just drill and tap a hole for it
[21:19:06] <MattyMatt> worth considering. tooling stops getting cheaper below a certain size. bigger tooling is better value
[21:19:10] <_methods> schweet ipv6 all set up
[21:19:21] <_methods> easier to get bigger tooling
[21:19:31] <Jymmm> _methods: ipv8 ftw
[21:19:37] <_methods> those axa holders and 1/2 shank holders are suck
[21:19:50] <_methods> FU and your ipv8
[21:19:56] <_methods> i got ipv6 so suck it
[21:19:56] <Jymmm> hahahaha
[21:20:11] <Jymmm> _methods: well, assign an p to the toaster already!
[21:20:15] <Jymmm> ip*
[21:20:17] <_methods> hahah
[21:20:18] <_methods> yeah
[21:20:25] <MattyMatt> i'm 3/8" max on my current 4 way, trying to decide what qctp system to go with
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[21:20:57] <_methods> well i wanted to get one of those swiss ones but i just went with aloris wedge style
[21:21:21] <_methods> way easier to get tool holders and attachments for
[21:21:23] <_methods> and cheaper
[21:22:15] <MattyMatt> in UK, I'd be best off with a myford compatible one, but they're a bit big for my lathe I think
[21:23:15] <MattyMatt> dovetails with a ram, iirc
[21:23:27] <_methods> yeah aloris style probably
[21:25:04] <Jymmm> Is that just a fancy valve, or actually a pump too?
http://i.imgur.com/G8V67Or.png
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[21:26:14] <_methods> i've seen them used as both pump/valve
[21:26:28] <Jymmm> I can't find info on it, wasn't sure.
[21:26:33] <_methods> or ones that look like it
[21:27:00] <Jymmm> from this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ahydd_9lXYY#t=323
[21:27:57] <Jymmm> she says "special pump" *shrug*
[21:28:54] <MattyMatt> maybe it has just enough pump in it to start a syphon or prime an artesian
[21:29:29] * MattyMatt english. more than enough water falls from the sky
[21:30:39] <MattyMatt> and then flows efficiently into victorian drains, so pumps are beyond our ken
[21:31:08] <Jymmm> No clue, just wish I could find info on it to be sure
[21:32:22] <MattyMatt> I've seen taps like that on feeding troughs. the padlock eye is to stop the beasts working it
[21:33:01] <MattyMatt> and to stop tinkers having baths
[21:34:13] <MattyMatt> it's just a tap I think, the lever arms are just part of the nice springy action
[21:35:00] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, that is a yard faucet
[21:35:07] <Tom_itx> Jymmm that pipe just looks like a freeze valve
[21:35:28] <Tom_itx> shutoff below grade with a drainoff
[21:36:21] <JT-Shop> yep, when close the faucet the upper part drains out
[21:36:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.butlerlumbercoinc.com/images/Hyd-Dimens-Dwgtext2.jpg
[21:36:56] <JT-Shop> I put one at Dads house
[21:37:30] <Tom_itx> http://www.griggindustries.com/media/ClaytonHydrant.jpg
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[21:38:46] <Tom_itx> http://www.build.com/proflo-pfem7502-hydrant/s992446?uid=2443755&gclid=CjwKEAjwpsGqBRCioKet--bp_QcSJADCtbsbYq2LhHG-qP7q3r4i3Vwz92LwN27nmy0Z0oJtqDmVKxoC1z7w_wcB&source=gg-gba-pla_2443755____49842551959&ef_id=VTbjiAAABLNNZGLc:20150511213606:s
[21:38:49] <JT-Shop> CaptHindsight, I notice none of your products have pricing
[21:38:49] <Tom_itx> bargain priced too
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[21:46:42] <malcom2073> No price, so it's free yeah?
[21:50:57] <zeeshan> this might be a silly question
[21:51:06] <zeeshan> but is there a light bulb that can i can put in a 300C chamber?
[21:51:22] <zeeshan> i notice ovens have incadescent bulbs
[21:52:32] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: none? which ones?
[21:53:16] <JT-Shop> none of the ones I looked at had any pricing
[21:53:28] <JT-Shop> you only see it when you add it to your cart
[21:53:35] <CaptHindsight> yeah
[21:53:39] <JT-Shop> have you looked at Opencart?
[21:54:34] <CaptHindsight> not really, paypal works for most hobbyists
[21:54:39] <JT-Shop> gotta run\
[21:56:56] <andypugh> zeeshan: Oven bulbs are a special thing
[21:57:05] <zeeshan> how so
[21:57:10] <CaptHindsight> and if you're buying 200Kg you aren't going to use Paypal
[21:57:48] <andypugh> zeeshan: MAinly being rated to 300C:
https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/LAOV25SES.html
[21:58:12] <zeeshan> nice!
[21:58:28] <zeeshan> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Philips-40-Watt-Incandescent-A15-Clear-Appliance-Light-Bulb-416768/202762704
[21:58:32] <zeeshan> this looks like a regular bulb to me tho
[22:01:11] <Rab> Would you expect it to look different?
[22:01:13] <andypugh> There is a similar one (available by the case) that mentions “oven”
[22:01:47] <andypugh> But I am also amazed by
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-18-Volt-ONE-Lithium-Ion-Super-Combo-Kit-4-Piece-P883/203466914?MERCH=RV-_-rv_search_plp_rr-_-NA-_-203466914-_-N because in the UK that would be a decent price for one of the tools. :-(
[22:02:17] <zeeshan> its rigid brand :P
[22:02:36] <Rab> Glass/metal/tungsten don't melt at 300C, I think the differences might be the base and filament connections being able to withstand greater thermal cycling.
[22:02:42] <andypugh> No, it’s Ryobi
[22:02:46] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/Leq6Wx3.jpg ;
http://i.imgur.com/0Onzg8I.jpg
[22:02:56] <zeeshan> im haxin the environmental chamber at school
[22:03:05] <zeeshan> im thinking it might be just easier to modif ythis chamber vs make my own
[22:03:14] <zeeshan> i wanna finish my masters and gtfo asap
[22:03:32] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/z8luyhe.jpg
[22:03:35] <zeeshan> i need more lighting here
[22:03:44] <zeeshan> i need to make the glass window bigger too
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[22:16:56] <SpeedEvil> Or don't, and just jam in several webcams
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[22:18:02] <andypugh> I imagine that an oven bulb has glass insulators everywhere, no plastic and high MP solder on the terminals
[22:19:30] <zeeshan> not sure :P
[22:19:49] <andypugh> zeeshan:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR1.TRC0.A0.H0.Xoven+lamp.TRS0&_nkw=oven+lamp&_sacat=0
[22:19:56] <zeeshan> http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/47/19/63501210739354/0/replace-oven-light-socket.1280x600.jpg
[22:20:00] <zeeshan> looks like a ceramic socket
[22:20:11] <andypugh> yes, that too
[22:20:40] <zeeshan> if i make the front window large enough
[22:20:43] <SpeedEvil> I've been contemplating kiln-cams.
[22:20:49] <zeeshan> maybe i can just shine diffuse light from the outside
[22:20:52] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: thank you
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[22:21:14] <SpeedEvil> little quartz test-tube, with a pokeable-in test tube filled with water or something similar and a waterproof camera.
[22:21:28] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: im doing infrared thermography + direct image correlation
[22:21:40] <zeeshan> for the dic i need it to be fairly lit up nicely
[22:22:24] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Ah - well - on a related matter - I currently have a small pile of quartz halogen bulbs I'm intending to use to prototype a kiln.
[22:22:38] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: intended to go to ~1000C
[22:22:42] <andypugh> What on earth?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Baby-Safe-Anti-swallowing-WSDCN-E14-T25-15W-120V-Oven-Bulb-Lamp-300C-/161328303852?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258fea8eec
[22:22:43] <zeeshan> jeez! :P
[22:23:03] <SpeedEvil> Mst babies will not swallow things at 300C
[22:23:07] <zeeshan> lol
[22:23:30] <zeeshan> i guess youd use mg wire
[22:23:35] <zeeshan> attached to the light bulb socket?
[22:23:39] <zeeshan> mg wire is rated for liek 450C
[22:23:55] <andypugh> I think PTFE would be OK?
[22:23:59] <zeeshan> http://www.awcwire.com/Portals/0/CVStoreImages/mg_wire_group_400.jpg
[22:24:00] <zeeshan> that stuff
[22:24:19] <SpeedEvil> There are reportedly 'hot end' quartz halogen tubes designed to work in hot environments
[22:24:26] <zeeshan> tcgt (teflon insulated) wire
[22:24:28] <zeeshan> is rated for 250C
[22:24:45] <andypugh> Normally the wire is outside the chamber
[22:24:53] <zeeshan> im being lazy
[22:24:53] <zeeshan> haha
[22:24:56] <zeeshan> you see the spot on the top?
[22:24:58] <andypugh> MIC
[22:25:00] <zeeshan> i wanna make a housing that goes there :P
[22:25:49] <andypugh> Though I actually rather like fishspine beads for the old-school look.
[22:27:51] <andypugh> It seems that they don’t call them that on ebay.com
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200-x-Steatite-Fishspine-Insulating-Beads-Die-Pressed-Interlocking-Size-2-/390749061174?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5afa758036
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[22:31:08] <furrywolf> got 16ft of nice aluminum angle for making the corners of the box, a nice heavy piece of sheet for the back side, but they didn't have any thin stuff I liked for the rest of the box.
[22:31:47] <furrywolf> also checked their pile of plugs, got a 50a 125/250 twistlock like I needed... but the wrong gender. decided it was cheap enough to get anyway, just in case I want to make something that plugs into the other side of the box.
[22:32:03] <SpeedEvil> :)
[22:32:24] <furrywolf> also got a
http://www.groundhoginc.com/productview.php?iProductID=5 that doesn't run. runs perfectly off starting fluid, no sign of fuel - likely just a stuck needle valve.
[22:33:24] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Interesting... "Not approved for potable water application"
[22:34:36] <Jymmm> furrywolf: connect to tire hub and you get a log splitter =)
[22:34:53] <furrywolf> ?
[22:35:49] <furrywolf> it's in beautiful shape... looks close to new. has rental stickers from a hardware store a town over on it. my guess is it stopped running, and someone decided it was cheaper to scrap it and get a new one than to rebuild the carb.
[22:36:11] <furrywolf> well, not quite like new, but if I pressure wash the mud off, then it'll look like new.
[22:36:56] <Jymmm> furrywolf:
http://imgur.com/G8V67Or
[22:37:17] <Jymmm> or
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89O6j1SOUVs
[22:37:20] <andypugh> furrywolf: Getting one from a rental store a town over and not returning it can be very cost-effective.
[22:37:43] <furrywolf> andypugh: things like that happen often enough the scrapyard knows it. lol
[22:37:52] <furrywolf> and it's definitely non-functional.
[22:38:24] <furrywolf> Jymmm: it's a valve or a pump?
[22:38:54] <Jymmm> furrywolf: It's a anti-freeze valve
[22:39:04] <Jymmm> thanks to Tom_itx
[22:39:15] <furrywolf> ah, one of the ones with the actual valve way underground?
[22:40:00] <Jymmm> yeah
[22:40:11] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: there totally has to be a market for a tiny fuel injector system to replace carbs.
[22:40:12] <Jymmm> http://www.butlerlumbercoinc.com/images/Hyd-Dimens-Dwgtext2.jpg
[22:40:38] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: to cope with ~.5-3hp engines say.
[22:40:48] <Jymmm> she says "pump" in the video, but that be an awfully short stroke for a pump
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[22:41:13] <andypugh> SpeedEvil: How tiny?
http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=fuel_injectors
[22:41:30] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: yeah - seen that - awesome.
[22:41:31] <furrywolf> around here it only gets cold enough to freeze things every few years, and rarely any damage.
[22:41:38] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: I was meaning more mass produced though :)
[22:41:50] <Jymmm> andypugh: This tiny...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGTbQuhhluY
[22:42:03] <furrywolf> it'd have to be an all-in-one unit the same size and shape as a carb, that your average small engine mechanic wouldn't need too many helpers to figure out how to hook up.
[22:42:04] <andypugh> Apparently people keep asking him to make injectors for their pet projects.
[22:42:13] <SpeedEvil> andypugh: heh
[22:42:49] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: yeah - I have one of those, with ~0.1 hours on it.
[22:43:29] <andypugh> Jymmm: Cripes that’s a lot of fuel flow
[22:43:46] <Jymmm> andypugh: hahaha, yes, yes it is =)
[22:43:55] <furrywolf> one of what?
[22:44:03] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: post-hole diggers.
[22:44:14] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I need to replace my fence - it's been a while.
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[22:44:52] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: excuse to get a bobcat with augar attachement?
[22:45:03] <furrywolf> this one didn't come with the auger bit... but presumably one is a lot cheaper than the power unit.
[22:45:20] <andypugh> furrywolf: I wouldn’t actuallybet on that
[22:45:43] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil:
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/enDWBINad48/maxresdefault.jpg
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[22:47:23] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: posssibly
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[22:47:34] <Jymmm> I want one, but I've seen ppl that have been using them for years flip them over
[22:47:47] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: plus - you now have a high torque low RPM motor.
[22:47:57] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: fun for any number of applicaitons.
[22:48:06] <furrywolf> yep
[22:48:07] <SpeedEvil> Mixing, winching, ...
[22:48:15] <furrywolf> a friend was asking me about well drilling the other day...
[22:48:39] <furrywolf> I could easily make a auger-to-drillstring-swivel adapter. :)
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[22:53:09] <furrywolf> http://www.deeprock.com/HD/Default.aspx if you look at one of those, it really is nothing more than a post hole auger on a stand.
[22:54:15] <furrywolf> except this auger is fancier - it uses a commercial horizontal-shaft engine, not a lawnmower engine.
[22:55:59] <SpeedEvil> yeah - the above is really handy especially if you don't want to fall over a lot :)
[22:57:42] <furrywolf> I made the stand for mine out of 2x4s and deck screws... worked great.
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[22:58:38] <furrywolf> hrmm, I think the only pic I have uploaded is the bit...
http://fw.bushytails.net/wellbit01.jpg
[22:58:58] <renesis> primitive
[22:59:35] <renesis> ha, how did you cut the barbs?
[22:59:48] <furrywolf> angle grinder. :P
[23:00:00] <renesis> i thought oxy-jet cutting but it looks drilled and ripped
[23:00:04] <renesis> haha hacker
[23:00:31] <furrywolf> it worked. how did your well drilling bit work? :P
[23:00:56] <renesis> i dont know wtf a well is
[23:01:16] <furrywolf> then don't complain? :P
[23:01:24] <renesis> i was complimenting!
[23:01:36] <renesis> and water comes from water filters, water from dirt is nasty
[23:02:19] <furrywolf> ... lol
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[23:03:58] <furrywolf> apparantly all the standard augers use a 3/4" round shaft, while ground hog uses a 7/8" square shaft. so I can buy a $130 bit, or buy a $30 bit and weld a $5 adapter.
[23:05:13] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Or buy ten $30 bits and ebay
[23:07:06] <furrywolf> or I can weld a bunch of split circles of sheet to a piece of pipe...
[23:08:30] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Auger-Post-Hole-Digger-Bit-Carbon-Steel-Wide-Skid-Steer-Drill-Bit-/251760938680 nice and cheap
[23:08:36] <furrywolf> but they all have the wrong drive
[23:09:19] <furrywolf> $38.75 with free shipping for 8" by 30"... not worth making your own at that price.
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[23:37:51] <Tom_itx> Jymmm she must be used to short strokes
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[23:47:49] <Tom_itx> Jymmm there are also videos of similar setups running a turbine for a generator
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