#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-04-29

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[00:00:01] <furrywolf> most likely, he was officially supposed to do this, but management said it wasted time and anyone doing it would be fired.
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[00:00:16] <LeelooMinai> Well, or both of the methods in case one forgets...
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[00:00:49] <LeelooMinai> And maybe a third automatic that would detect people inside:)
[00:00:56] <malcom2073> Managers also often have keys to their employees lockout locks
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[00:01:09] <furrywolf> there's no interlock to detect humans apart from tuna... it's purely a lockout issue.
[00:01:12] <malcom2073> But there are explicit procedures for a manager unlocking
[00:01:21] <malcom2073> typically requiring getting the guy on he phone and/or in person first :P
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[00:01:33] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Sure there is - tuna usually does not enter the oven by itself and alive:p
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[00:01:48] <malcom2073> How about an audio sensor? If it detects screaming, open
[00:01:56] <furrywolf> lol
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[00:02:00] <LeelooMinai> What if the worker is mute:p
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[00:02:41] <malcom2073> hmmm
[00:02:49] <furrywolf> if it was a space designed for routine entry, it'd probably have alarms, flashing lights, and an interior shutdown and door opening mechanism... but it's not. he was performing maintenance. he should have locked it out before entering.
[00:02:52] <malcom2073> ah he got 6 tons of tune dumped on him
[00:02:53] <malcom2073> not much would solve that
[00:03:01] <malcom2073> tuna
[00:03:08] <malcom2073> fortunatly that likely killed him before the cooking
[00:03:33] <furrywolf> now, while he should have locked it out, it's quite likely, if not most likely, management objected to proper safety practices, which is why he didn't.
[00:04:07] <malcom2073> hence like,y the managers being charge
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[00:04:12] <LeelooMinai> Now I will not eat tuna ever again
[00:04:14] <Rab> Scream sensor would false positive on the screaming of the sea kittens.
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[00:04:36] <malcom2073> "Open the door Hal...."
[00:04:37] <furrywolf> if you touch a piece of equipment at the local mill without locking it out, you'll be fired on the spot. this is called "safety culture"...
[00:04:52] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Same for the machine shop in our building.
[00:05:00] <furrywolf> something some places have, and others don't. heh.
[00:05:01] <malcom2073> Plus, if you touch someone elses tag (they're not actually locks), you get fired
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[00:05:12] <furrywolf> yep
[00:05:15] <LeelooMinai> With a flame thrower? That's a bit extreme, but ok...
[00:05:31] <malcom2073> LeelooMinai: LeelooMinai Safety third, behind revenge, and profit
[00:05:49] <furrywolf> probably depends on the size of the equipment. for example, the mill here has a bandsaw >3 stories tall. actual locks are more appropriate. :)
[00:06:10] <malcom2073> haha yeah, our biggest machine isn't big enough for someone to be "inside", eg: not visible from the lockout tag
[00:06:13] <furrywolf> 15ft drive wheels...
[00:06:44] <LeelooMinai> O, right, it probably has a tiny blade like that: http://tic.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/100_2010_1-e1298415709345.jpg
[00:06:49] <furrywolf> when you build a mill to cut >>10ft diameter trees, everything is big. :)
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[00:07:19] <furrywolf> heh, yep, that's exactly what is uses. maybe a little larger. lol
[00:07:34] <furrywolf> it's REALLY impressive when it breaks.
[00:07:50] <LeelooMinai> Yes, it can cut your whole finger
[00:08:09] <malcom2073> by finger, you mean torso?
[00:08:15] <furrywolf> they have an employee whose entire job is maintaining the band.
[00:08:38] <LeelooMinai> I wonder if Home Depot carries those
[00:08:41] <furrywolf> they swap them out, so while they're cutting with one, he's sharpening, repairing, etc the others. full-time job.
[00:09:07] <furrywolf> and if he works on it without locking it out... he'll be looking for a new full-time job!
[00:09:15] <LeelooMinai> It probably costs as much as a car too
[00:09:36] <LeelooMinai> Well, expensive car:)
[00:11:03] <furrywolf> you can be sure bumblebee management is going to blame the employee when it goes to a judge... "our policy says he was required to lock out the oven's power before entering. it's not our fault he decided to recklessly endanger his own life."
[00:12:05] <Computer_barf> meh.. not the first time someone has been cooked in an industrial pressure cooker
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[00:12:38] <LeelooMinai> "At that day he was wearing a t-shirt that was making him look like a big tuna. We don't know why he did that, but our employees were not able to distingush him from real tuna."
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[00:12:56] <Computer_barf> im surprised no one has designed an internal interrupt for them
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[00:13:16] <malcom2073> They may have one, but it's likely hard to reach when 6T of tune gets dumped on your head
[00:13:20] <malcom2073> like freezers have internal releases heh
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[00:13:42] <Computer_barf> i dont think he was in there with a bunch of tuna. they usually have big rolling shelfing units that they put in there stacked with cans of tuna
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[00:13:59] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Did you read the article, or pull a facebook and just the title? :-P
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[00:14:17] <furrywolf> I was once at a job working on a roof... the manager started out with "for safety, osha says you need to wear a harness. if I catch you doing this, you can go wear your harness somewhere else and waste someone else's time."
[00:14:23] <Computer_barf> well just that's typically how tuna is cooked
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[00:15:06] <Computer_barf> pressure sterilizing tuna in such a way wouldn't be effective
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[00:16:15] <Computer_barf> thats kind of how those tuna companies doe it, i think if the article says he was in there with x tons of tuna, they mean, in there with the stacks
[00:17:13] <Computer_barf> "filled the pressure cooker with 12,000 pounds of canned tuna and it was turned on. "
[00:17:26] <Computer_barf> canned tuna.. the cans. Not loose tuna.
[00:21:05] <Computer_barf> http://imagizer.imageshack.us/scaled/landing/21/5498067415f6be4a8a4a1.jpg
[00:21:38] <Computer_barf> this is what they look like, they have big shelfing units that they roll in there. It's not like they dump raw tuna in there.
[00:21:57] <LeelooMinai> Well, too bad than - he was cooked alive
[00:22:22] <Computer_barf> I can't remember where I first heard of those things. I think it was dirty jobs.
[00:22:30] <Computer_barf> I believe they mentioned this problem too
[00:23:03] <LeelooMinai> Accidentally cooking workers? :)
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[00:23:18] <Computer_barf> that you have to be careful and not let the door shut on you
[00:23:23] <Computer_barf> or else you'll get cooked
[00:23:40] <Computer_barf> 200 degree steam is injected
[00:23:58] <furrywolf> lockouts!
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[00:24:06] <Computer_barf> you would probably pass out pretty quick
[00:24:43] <Computer_barf> maybe they could impliment some sort of rfid solution
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[00:25:10] <Computer_barf> some high pressure resistent reader inside, that if detected wouldn't allow the machine to turn on
[00:25:27] <Computer_barf> but then again, back to workers being incompetent and not wearing their badges
[00:25:31] <LeelooMinai> Yes, and if your tag does not work, bye bye:)
[00:25:40] <jdh> someone woudl override it for testing
[00:25:53] <furrywolf> lockouts work well. before entering, put your padlock on something that prevents its operation, such as a power disconnect, steam valve, door mechanism, etc.
[00:26:08] <furrywolf> the problem isn't the technology. the problem is failure to properly follow safety procedures.
[00:26:10] <LeelooMinai> But one can forget doing that
[00:26:29] <furrywolf> you can only forget it once, because at a responsible company, you'll be promptly fired.
[00:26:30] <Computer_barf> here's the thing.. If you worked with these machines you would think you would be super paranoid about keeping someone aware your inside
[00:26:38] <jdh> nobody forgets, they just don't do it.
[00:26:39] <LeelooMinai> furrywolf: Or cooked
[00:26:58] <furrywolf> lockouts are not considered optional at a responsible company. if you fail to lock/tag equipment out, or tamper with someone else's locks, you're fired.
[00:26:58] <Computer_barf> i wonder if they keep cameras on it
[00:27:11] <Computer_barf> you could do a system that counts bodies
[00:27:24] <Computer_barf> lol i don't mean cooked bodies
[00:27:25] <furrywolf> now, at irresponsible companies, management will try to prevent the use of lockouts, as they take more time and add more hassle.
[00:27:57] <Computer_barf> what is that visual library
[00:28:14] <Computer_barf> for computer vision programming
[00:28:31] <Computer_barf> i think that might be a good solution , something that counts people going in and out
[00:28:44] <furrywolf> locking out/tagging out takes time, and creates hassle, such as someone going home for the day with a piece of equipment still locked. even if they know you went home, they're still not allowed to remove your lock without a major procedure. bad management therefor tries to prevent the use of safety procedures.
[00:28:48] <Computer_barf> you could just require a bright color jumpsuit
[00:29:09] <LeelooMinai> Computer_barf: Doesn't really sound like cheap/easy foolproof solution...
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[00:29:45] <Computer_barf> hell I think the employer should just be allowed to have some sort of contractual protection
[00:30:00] <Computer_barf> you take the job you agree to accept the liability
[00:30:14] <malcom2073> Can't sign away your right to life
[00:30:19] <Computer_barf> and if people don't take the jobs, then they can impliment a system people are willing to contract for
[00:30:30] <furrywolf> I think employers who try to prevent proper safety procedures should be painfully injured, preferably by the equipment they manage.
[00:30:41] <Computer_barf> life as a right is failure to understand what a right is
[00:30:41] <malcom2073> +1
[00:30:54] <malcom2073> Safety, properly implemented, takes so little time compared to the time lost when injury happens
[00:31:12] <LeelooMinai> How about there is one key to the thing and if you open it, well, you are the only one that can close it
[00:31:43] <LeelooMinai> That would be pretty simple and foolproof
[00:31:55] <furrywolf> I also note the involved workers have mexican names, which then gets into the whole immigration status stuff... I know at least two local companies have been investigated for telling immigrants they'll be deported if they follow the law.
[00:32:27] <Computer_barf> too many people use the term right in a sense that isn't classically valid. their's no such thing as right to work, right to life, right to healthcare, right to housing
[00:32:50] <Computer_barf> it has to be something that is innate to you as a human
[00:32:57] <furrywolf> a truck company was making them work >20 hours/day under threat of deportation, and a chinese restaurant was paying $1.50/hour.
[00:33:14] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: A right as in something that is enforcable in a court of law. Life counts
[00:33:52] <Computer_barf> meh, courts don't define rights. You can't grant something you don't have.
[00:34:36] <LeelooMinai> Sure they can - societal rights
[00:34:39] <malcom2073> Semantics, we're talking about different rights.
[00:34:50] <theorbtwo> Somewhat random (and on-topic, hey!) question for you guys: I'm pondering making a little PCB mill/drill thing. I know my way around the reprap ecosystem pretty well, but not much about serious machining. Is linuxcnc a good place to start?
[00:34:52] <Computer_barf> your confusing privileges with rights. No constitution grants rights, it recognizes them
[00:35:12] <malcom2073> Semantic arguments are the ammunition of the weak, don't play that game
[00:35:13] <malcom2073> :P
[00:35:17] <Computer_barf> it is semantical, in that the word has a meaning, you've lost sight of its meaning.
[00:35:25] <LeelooMinai> "you have the privilage to remain silent"... lol
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[00:37:16] <theorbtwo> There's different sorts of semantic arguments. This is the boring kind, where the two parties simply disagree about what the meaning of a word is, and know it.
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[00:37:32] <malcom2073> Anyway, in my country, our constitution recognizes the right to life, so to me, it's a right.
[00:37:34] <Computer_barf> right to remain silent is yes, an inumerated right, it was recognized as being innate. It's not just something that is made up like "human rights", which hinge on a living document overseen by the united nations.
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[00:38:20] <Computer_barf> these are important distinctions as otherwise your rights are hinged on the whims of the current ruling class. Rights are derived from natural rights.
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[00:38:34] <theorbtwo> It was most certianly made up, and the constitution of the united states is a living document too.
[00:38:52] <LeelooMinai> And then you have to define "natural"
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[00:39:05] <malcom2073> natural rights are, like the rights written into a constitution, subject to human interpretation
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[00:39:34] <LeelooMinai> What for one person is natural may be very innatural for another
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[00:39:40] <Computer_barf> its not a living document as much of the neo-liberals regard it, thats why constitutional conventions exist
[00:40:08] <Computer_barf> people want to alter long standing amendments as if they are fluid like that , which wasn't the original intent
[00:40:22] <Computer_barf> there is a format for doing it though
[00:40:24] <malcom2073> That has nothing to do with rights though
[00:40:48] <furrywolf> clientId : "q3r9p989687p496no2s92p9r84s779qp",
[00:40:49] <furrywolf> clientSecret : "789r9n607poo4s9no6998771s969o630",
[00:41:02] <furrywolf> am I the only one who thinks things named "secret" shouldn't be hard-coded in source? lol
[00:41:08] <malcom2073> lol nonsense
[00:41:18] <malcom2073> it's transfered to github over ssh, it's safe
[00:41:45] <theorbtwo> Computer_barf: Oh, I quite agree that you shouldn't ignore what the consitution says. I really do hate it when people, of any political flavour, try to do that. The US constitution has an amendment process.
[00:42:39] <Computer_barf> yeah much of what I've been saying is a reflection of the minarchist perspective of the united states constitution , I don't personally hold this view anymore but if you believe in government, you should play by its actual rules
[00:44:46] <Computer_barf> I personally view constitutions as permission slips gangs grant to themselves powers they never had individually , it's a scam.
[00:45:27] <Computer_barf> but at the time the us constitution was adopted , natural rights were widely perceived as the the basis for the bill of rights
[00:47:15] <Computer_barf> its just silly to reinterpret, the content should be based on its historical context. This whole game where government endlessly expand their powers beyond what is explicitly innumerated is bullshit that will only end in tears.
[00:48:17] <Computer_barf> aside malcon2073's conception of all that is needed for a a desire to be met is for it to be defined as a right defies what economics has known for well over a thousand years. It's not a matter of what you want.
[00:49:01] * furrywolf waits for Computer_barf to come up with a solution instead of a description of the problem, and meanwhile goes back to reading about spotify apis
[00:49:07] <malcom2073> Heh
[00:49:25] <malcom2073> Well, I'm happy, people around me are happy, so my rights seem to be working pretty good for me
[00:49:27] * LeelooMinai went back to designing a pcb 5 minutes ago
[00:49:27] <malcom2073> :P
[00:49:48] <malcom2073> The fact that you don't recognize them as rights inconveniences only you
[00:50:32] <furrywolf> lol! about the clientsecret above... the docs say "Always store the client secret key securely; never reveal it publicly! If you suspect that the secret key has been compromised, regenerate it immediately by clicking the link on the application details page."
[00:50:39] <malcom2073> lol
[00:50:45] * furrywolf suspects including it in the source code counts as revealing it publicly
[00:50:47] <malcom2073> Hopefully they regenerated it!
[00:50:49] <Computer_barf> furrywolf: such solutions are only ever the result of capital exchange, even when the government is used to coerce others into providing them for you.
[00:52:35] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: something working is not the measure of what is moral. I can murder my neighbor and take his money , and that works. That does not mean force is an innately legitimate basis for society to operate on.
[00:53:40] <Computer_barf> when a government starts defining rights that don't innately belong to people , it becomes necessary that in order for a government to give to one, they must first take from another.
[00:54:08] <Computer_barf> so say you make it a right that everyone gets a car
[00:54:15] <Computer_barf> where does the car come from?
[00:54:18] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Legitimacy of actions is an entirely different discussion, since morals and values are extremely dependant on the person
[00:55:02] <Computer_barf> I just like philosophical consistency
[00:55:14] <Computer_barf> i think if its wrong for me to rob my neighbor
[00:55:16] <malcom2073> There's nothing consistant about philosophy
[00:55:24] <Computer_barf> it should also be wrong for government to do the same under diffrent names
[00:55:42] <malcom2073> Ah, this is a thinly veiled attack against the government?
[00:55:43] <malcom2073> I miss that
[00:55:45] <malcom2073> missed*
[00:55:54] <malcom2073> I thought we were talking about rights
[00:56:07] <Computer_barf> I think i make my positions pretty explicit
[00:56:32] <furrywolf> I have absolutely no clue what you're trying to say, so... maybe you think it was explicit...
[00:56:32] <Computer_barf> yes i mentioned that what I had previously said was under the lexicon of minarchism ,which i don't personally believe in anymoe
[00:56:38] <LeelooMinai> I knew it would end like that long time ago:)
[00:56:40] <malcom2073> Your position on government actions in relation to theft, has little to do with my belief that life is a right, which afaik is what this conversation is about?
[00:57:23] <Computer_barf> I just had said that if you believe in government, you should at least expect it to follow it's own rules
[00:57:46] <Computer_barf> I realize this gets complex when we are discussing multiple territories
[00:58:34] <Computer_barf> but our original discussion on rights i was speaking from a minarchist constitutional, united states perspective
[00:58:37] <malcom2073> I never claimed to "believe in government", but to group the entire administration structure (of hundreds of thousands of people) together, you're bound to find something you don't like.
[00:59:02] <malcom2073> I believe that I have a right to life, and that the government will protect that right.
[00:59:37] <Computer_barf> don't you recognise that what the government is capable of doing is limited by what it can actually control?
[00:59:51] <Computer_barf> i mean if you set out a rule that must be upheld by the government
[00:59:59] <Computer_barf> thats limited by what is actually economically possible
[01:00:16] <Computer_barf> not to mention that open ended economic demands like that are risky
[01:00:27] <malcom2073> Well of course. If the economy of the government collapses, they'll be in no position to protect anyones rights
[01:00:34] <Computer_barf> i mean what if the government needs to spend all of everyones money to make sure that one person does not die
[01:00:57] <Computer_barf> I just see people using this rights trope
[01:01:15] <Computer_barf> as if proclaiming a right makes the government capable of anything
[01:01:16] <malcom2073> The government doesn't spend everyones money, it spends its own money, which people pay to it to live here. Important distinction. The money is the governments to do with what it wants (which people majority voted for mind you)
[01:01:44] <malcom2073> proclaiming a right displays the intention of the government to do things.
[01:01:47] <Computer_barf> which isn't really true , its not really possible. They are always limited by the funds they can siphon off from their population.
[01:02:12] <malcom2073> True, but unless you know of a case where the government refused to prosecute someone for killing someone else due to a lack of funds?
[01:02:37] <Computer_barf> sure
[01:02:41] <Computer_barf> yes absolutely
[01:03:08] <Computer_barf> prosecutors charge by discretion in governments all over the world
[01:03:24] <malcom2073> Tin foil hat, not what I asked
[01:03:37] <Computer_barf> tin foil hat is not an argument
[01:03:54] <Computer_barf> think about early release
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[01:04:24] <Computer_barf> or when a crime is so prevalent that the government doesn't bring charges for practicality reasons
[01:04:50] <malcom2073> I'm talking about the right to life
[01:04:54] <malcom2073> so, murder
[01:04:59] <malcom2073> not manslaughter, murder
[01:05:05] <malcom2073> It's not black and white
[01:05:25] <Computer_barf> yes but assigning a right by desire rather than its innateness is what I pointed out
[01:05:32] <Computer_barf> you've decided on life
[01:05:48] <Computer_barf> but someone else could decide that they have a right to a million dollars
[01:06:01] <Computer_barf> think about how that would go apon implimentation
[01:06:08] <malcom2073> I've not decided on life, the government has decided on life
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[01:06:15] <malcom2073> if the government decides on a million dollars, then we'll talk :P
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[01:06:49] <Computer_barf> lol im just trying to illustrate the problematic nature of defining rights as something you want rather than a property of the nature of humans
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[01:07:13] <Computer_barf> i mean technically we could argue that there is no such thing as rights at all
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[01:07:41] <malcom2073> You're illustrating it by providing examples that make no sense. Provide an example of something I consider a right, that is not governmentally enforced.
[01:07:53] <malcom2073> Hint: No such thing, because I wouldn't consider it a right
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[01:08:33] <Computer_barf> im giving the example not to criticise things as they are , im doing it to exemplify the problem of granting things you don't possess
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[01:09:08] <Computer_barf> do you personally possess immortality or immutable force to prevent death?
[01:09:16] <malcom2073> I never said the constitution granted rights
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[01:09:32] <Computer_barf> then how would the government , being made up of individuals, hold such a right?
[01:09:38] * Tom_itx wonders wtf channel he is in...
[01:09:42] <Computer_barf> lol
[01:09:45] <Computer_barf> hahah
[01:09:51] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: They enforce it, they don't grant it
[01:10:04] <malcom2073> They ensure it exists
[01:10:07] <Computer_barf> yes I realise we're way off topic and anyone would "have the right" to tell us to stfu
[01:10:12] <malcom2073> lol
[01:10:32] <Computer_barf> i believe the stfu clause would be an extension of property rights
[01:11:19] <furrywolf> and where do property rights come from?
[01:11:29] <malcom2073> The laws that enforce them :-P
[01:11:30] <furrywolf> why do you have any right to any property of any kind, ever?
[01:11:48] <Computer_barf> i believe that property rights are derived from nature
[01:11:50] <Tom_itx> you are merely visitors passing thru
[01:11:53] <furrywolf> lol
[01:11:56] <Computer_barf> that they are innate to us
[01:11:57] <malcom2073> Lol
[01:12:09] <Computer_barf> even animals practice property rights to an extent
[01:12:11] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: Who's property, your property?
[01:12:35] <malcom2073> How much property are you innately garunteed?
[01:12:38] <Computer_barf> well your persuing a line of questioning I've already conceded
[01:13:08] <Computer_barf> I pointed out that im not personally an adherent to the minarchist perspective
[01:13:16] <Computer_barf> I am a propertarian though
[01:13:31] <Computer_barf> and I admit my affinity to it is purely deontological
[01:13:39] <Jymmm> Is that like being jewish or something?
[01:13:43] <Tom_itx> if i purchase a home and it is paid in full why do i still pay property tax on it if i own it?
[01:13:46] <Computer_barf> I possess no logical proof of rights
[01:13:54] <Tom_itx> who really own's anything...
[01:13:55] <Computer_barf> im just saying if someone is going to declair life a right
[01:13:58] <malcom2073> And a sesquipedalian a that
[01:14:03] <malcom2073> :P
[01:14:08] <Computer_barf> then you should at least play by the rules
[01:14:12] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: read your deed
[01:14:17] <Tom_itx> naw
[01:14:18] <malcom2073> you don't "own" the property perse
[01:14:27] <Computer_barf> i think rights in those contexts are bastardisations of history, but that's also because im in the us
[01:14:47] <Jymmm> See also: eminent domain
[01:15:05] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Yep
[01:15:17] <malcom2073> Anyone who purchases property, then gets angry when they lose it to that, are idiots.
[01:15:22] <Computer_barf> eminent domain would be a pretty good example of the harms of reinterpretatoin
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[01:16:04] <Computer_barf> i mean idk about you but most of my government hinges on powers it reinterpreted into existence.
[01:16:13] <Jymmm> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/eminent-domain-being-abused/
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[01:16:31] <malcom2073> Yes, it, like any law, object, person, organization, etc, has been abused.
[01:16:37] <malcom2073> There's not a thing in the world that hasn't been abused
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[01:16:48] <Computer_barf> in the us there are juristdictions that use eminent domain to seize property based on economic productivity
[01:17:04] <Computer_barf> as in taking a business to give to another business
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[01:17:25] <Computer_barf> on the basis of oh this company will use this land better
[01:17:38] <Computer_barf> that to me seems pretty far off from needing to build a bridge
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[01:18:01] <Computer_barf> damn all this talking and my kernel is still building
[01:18:18] <malcom2073> lol
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[01:18:22] <malcom2073> Get a faster PC :P
[01:18:28] <malcom2073> I have the right to a fast compile!
[01:18:34] <Computer_barf> lol
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[01:18:51] <Computer_barf> right to internet!
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[01:19:47] <Computer_barf> that's the thing about assigning rights to desires , ask yourself if someone in the 1700's would think the idea is absurd
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[01:20:12] <Computer_barf> people might have been displeased with their conditions but no one protested poverty because they knew it was absurd
[01:20:18] <Jymmm> Computer_barf: There was homesteading in the 1700's
[01:20:30] <Computer_barf> you could pass the entire regulatory body and that wouldn't mean air conditioners would magically appear
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[01:21:15] <Computer_barf> Jymm: are you bringing that because you believe Im committed to lockean homesteading?
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[01:22:05] <Computer_barf> i mean that would possibly be perceptive of you, although im not committed to such a model, but regardless technology is at where it is at.
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[01:23:26] <Computer_barf> homesteading as a basis for property rights makes more sense to me relative to the government blocking off vast swaths of land and ocean.
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[01:24:09] <Computer_barf> but im not committed to that as an idea of the origin of property rights. I do like some of the principles.
[01:24:25] <Computer_barf> such as earliest claim
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[01:26:15] <Computer_barf> hmmmm
[01:26:28] <Computer_barf> I think JT-Shop is suck in some sort of loop
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[01:28:44] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: still compiling , i got a group of people together, we all signed a document and made some rules, we got people together and voted on it, and you weren't there, none the less we've taken over a geographical territory
[01:28:57] <malcom2073> Cool, good for you.
[01:29:20] <Computer_barf> we've declaired a monopoly on the use of force in this territory, and wrote some legislation
[01:29:27] <Computer_barf> it says we own your computing cycles
[01:29:36] <malcom2073> Cool. Now enforce it.
[01:29:44] <Computer_barf> so we'll be sending some thugs to go get it
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[01:30:02] <malcom2073> K, they will, of course, have to abide by the laws of my government, or face prosecution
[01:30:03] <Tom_itx> baltimore thugs?
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[01:30:09] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: I'm like... 40 miles from there
[01:30:11] <malcom2073> :P
[01:30:13] <malcom2073> So could be
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[01:30:29] <malcom2073> Or in the case of b-more thugs, face "room to be violent"
[01:30:31] <Computer_barf> wouldn't be the first time states have overlapped
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[01:31:05] <Computer_barf> oh im not on the side of baltimore thugs
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[01:31:17] <Computer_barf> I view that as pretty sadly misplaced
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[01:31:50] <Computer_barf> doesn't help that the media only frenzies over certain types of police violence
[01:32:14] <malcom2073> Violence is money to the media
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[01:32:32] <Computer_barf> not all kinds
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[01:33:10] <malcom2073> The kind that incites more violence
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[01:33:21] <Computer_barf> some is inconvenient to the medias relationship with the establishment
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[01:33:53] <Computer_barf> he was black? lets talk about it for days!
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[01:34:10] <Computer_barf> just regular police abuse? meh.
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[01:34:42] <malcom2073> The media has found a money button, and will keep pressing it until it breaks
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[01:35:13] <PetefromTn_> smash that thing hehe
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[01:35:44] <malcom2073> Woot! Got my unit tests working!
[01:35:48] <malcom2073> What a nightmare that was
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[01:36:02] <Computer_barf> well , the more they break it , the more the police will get federalized
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[01:36:27] <malcom2073> Wasn't it a james bond movie, where the media mogul tried to start a war for ratings?
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[01:36:48] <Computer_barf> government funding is predicated on perpetually broken things as justification for more funding.
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[01:37:07] <Computer_barf> malcom2073: I believe you are referring to the iraq war
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[01:37:53] <Computer_barf> man i had no idea how long making the kernel could take
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[01:38:07] <malcom2073> What are you compiling it on? Normally takes me 10-15 minutes
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[01:38:37] <Computer_barf> asrock q1900
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[01:38:51] <Tom_itx> you like that MB?
[01:39:00] <Computer_barf> well idk
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[01:39:20] <Computer_barf> i mean im still compiling my kernel for just now setting up linuxcnc
[01:39:25] <Computer_barf> so i can't really comment on it
[01:39:26] <malcom2073> Oh celeron, yeah
[01:39:28] <malcom2073> that'll do it
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[01:39:44] <malcom2073> You doing make -j4 or higher?
[01:39:47] <malcom2073> Or just make?
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[01:40:05] <Computer_barf> someone else with a mesa ethernet card recommended it so i went with it
[01:40:11] <Tom_itx> what's -j4 do?
[01:40:12] <Computer_barf> just make
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[01:40:17] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Parallel building
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[01:40:25] <Computer_barf> ahh yeah that would have been wise
[01:40:28] <malcom2073> Yeah
[01:40:35] <Computer_barf> ill live
[01:40:44] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Make can build things that aren't dependant on each other in parallel with the -j flag, speeds things up amazingly
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[01:40:50] <Computer_barf> its not like i went off on a half hour political rant
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[01:40:53] <malcom2073> lol
[01:40:59] <Tom_itx> so just add that to the make line??
[01:41:01] <malcom2073> Yeah, at least THAT didn't happen :)
[01:41:03] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Yeah
[01:41:06] <Tom_itx> make xxx -j4?
[01:41:10] <Computer_barf> i gotta say you guys tolerated it like champs
[01:41:12] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: make MyMakefile -j4
[01:41:17] <Tom_itx> huh
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[01:41:21] <malcom2073> 4 means 4 parallel threads. I do 10, since I have 8 threads
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[01:41:22] <Tom_itx> i'll have to remember that
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[01:41:32] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Be aware, it *CAN* screw things up in some projects/situations
[01:41:44] <malcom2073> So, if you encounter a failure, clean, and rebuild with less, or no parallels
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[01:42:00] <Computer_barf> sure I could go to a political room but sometimes its more fun to see how other people respond
[01:42:04] <Tom_itx> so on a dual core you could -j2?
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[01:42:26] <malcom2073> Tom_itx: Dual core non hyperthread 2 or 3, I've always *heard* you should do 50% more than the threads you have available, bu never did any real tests
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[01:42:36] <Computer_barf> does this command apply to other applications or just make
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[01:42:54] <malcom2073> Computer_barf: make, others may implement such things, but this isa make thing
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[01:43:04] <malcom2073> jom (make for MSVC in windows) also has it.
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[01:43:34] <Tom_itx> well if either of these Q1900 ever make it to linux i'll remember that
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[01:44:38] <Computer_barf> JT-Shop: stop that
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[01:46:00] <Tom_itx> he's on limited bandwidth until month end
[01:46:12] <malcom2073> Maybe he shouldn't leave IRC on then?
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[01:46:20] <Tom_itx> could be
[01:46:21] <malcom2073> connecting/disconnecting uses a couple K each time for the MOTD/etc
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[01:46:28] <Tom_itx> i'm sure he's asleep by now
[01:46:33] <malcom2073> yeah
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[01:49:27] <Computer_barf> i wonder if there is a temporary ignore command
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[01:50:29] <malcom2073> You can disable join/parts on your client
[01:50:37] <malcom2073> if you have a nice client, it'll let you ignore just him and stop that too
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[01:51:07] <Computer_barf> yeah i just don't want to forget later
[01:51:18] <Computer_barf> and have permanently blocked some poor random
[01:51:19] <Computer_barf> lol
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[01:51:45] <Computer_barf> unlikely i would need to talk to him, i don't know him, but there is that small worry that he might have the keys to the kingdom
[01:52:02] <malcom2073> lol
[01:52:10] <Tom_itx> if you are into linuxcnc you will likely want to talk to him eventually
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[01:52:19] <Computer_barf> see
[01:52:22] <Computer_barf> instinct validated
[01:52:28] <Computer_barf> he is the keymaster
[01:52:36] <Computer_barf> i was being tested
[01:52:51] <Tom_itx> go study for your driving test
[01:54:00] <Computer_barf> i would say something snarky about the goverment and permission to move around but that would just be too in character
[01:54:21] <malcom2073> lol
[01:55:04] <Computer_barf> someone should post another link like the tuna thing
[01:55:31] <Tom_itx> or we could stray back on topic
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[01:55:40] <Tom_itx> and discuss something relevant
[01:55:48] <Computer_barf> oh hell no im gonna talk about my gardinia tree
[01:55:52] <Computer_barf> its in bloom
[01:56:04] <Computer_barf> it smells like a thousand high class hookers in here.
[01:56:19] <malcom2073> I need to clean my mill
[01:58:28] <Computer_barf> how did it get dirty
[01:58:38] <malcom2073> It was apparently left outside for a year or so
[01:58:45] <Computer_barf> oh damn
[01:58:52] <Computer_barf> i wouldn't advise that
[01:58:55] <malcom2073> I did evaporust on it, it took a LOT of the rust off, need to do it again
[01:59:13] <Computer_barf> i thought you had chips on it or something
[01:59:15] <malcom2073> haha
[01:59:16] <malcom2073> nooo
[01:59:35] <Computer_barf> i was interested if you were making something cool
[01:59:40] <malcom2073> I've not cut yet, clean rust, clean outside, clean flood coolant system (that's gonna not be fun), then buy mesaboard and get the thing running
[02:00:18] <Computer_barf> oh get the 7i76 so if I can't figure it out,
[02:00:33] <Computer_barf> then you'll be able to tell me what i did wrong
[02:00:41] <malcom2073> Getting a 7i77 :)
[02:00:44] <Computer_barf> it's my right!
[02:00:47] <malcom2073> My dad has a 7i76 he wants me to set up
[02:00:50] <malcom2073> lol
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[02:02:18] <Computer_barf> i found a file on the forums that PCW posted
[02:02:22] <Computer_barf> a .ini
[02:02:33] <malcom2073> Seems legit
[02:02:38] <Computer_barf> for the 7i76e
[02:02:51] <Computer_barf> ive no idea what will be sufficient to get it working
[02:03:06] <malcom2073> I should read into that stuff sometime :/
[02:03:18] <malcom2073> Not looking forward to that, I've done some digging into HAL before, it's unfun
[02:03:43] <Computer_barf> i do know that linuxcnc won't start and is throwing errors about some modules that needed rt-prempt
[02:04:02] <malcom2073> Out of curiosity, why are you recompiling instead of using a pre-made image?
[02:04:28] <Computer_barf> well i thought it was just a matter of adding the sources for buildbot
[02:04:40] <Computer_barf> and following the commands on that page
[02:04:50] <Computer_barf> but this appears to not be so
[02:04:57] <malcom2073> hmm
[02:05:30] <Computer_barf> and since ive done other stuff since installing onto a copy of wheezy from the site...
[02:05:37] <Computer_barf> it would seem that this is the easier path
[02:05:57] <Computer_barf> and i suppose a very up to date kernel wouldn't hurt
[02:09:28] <PCW> well the current (3.18.11-rt7) Preemt-RT kernel seems to run on most everything so it got that going for it
[02:09:30] <PCW> (plus its RT performance is better than the stock 3.2.something)
[02:09:39] <PCW> bbl dinner
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[02:37:46] <norias> hello
[02:39:26] <PetefromTn_> hello
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[02:41:52] <norias> how goes, Pete?
[02:42:07] <PetefromTn_> meh not bad
[02:42:09] <PetefromTn_> you?
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[02:44:01] <norias> a little sleepy
[02:44:03] <norias> overall
[02:44:05] <norias> decent
[02:48:31] <PetefromTn_> Just finished working on a prototype for a customer. Got four different parts of a complete program made up and now I am Stitching it together into a complete final program. Hopefully it will be perfect tomorrow and I can start making them for the customer.
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[03:42:11] <norias> oops
[03:42:16] <norias> sorry, wandered away
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[04:08:52] <harold> hi
[04:09:20] <harold> you guys have probably seen
[04:09:26] <harold> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knuz38oT2kc ? -- 'hypermill'
[04:09:35] <harold> a 5-axis milling machine
[04:09:42] * furrywolf doesn't tend to use youtube, and thus hasn't seen many things on it
[04:10:22] <harold> well anyway, my question is: for something in United States, what's the best cnc milling machine available that costs around $20K USD?
[04:10:30] <harold> s/something/someone
[04:10:48] <zeeshan> new?|
[04:11:13] <harold> uhmmm, isn't getting a non-new cnc milling machine a complicated process?
[04:11:17] <harold> where would you get it from? ebay?
[04:11:45] <harold> but I think yes, new is better (it's for work, getting a non-new machine will be a confusing process for me )
[04:12:04] <furrywolf> ebay, craigslist, local equipment auctions, used equipment dealers,...
[04:12:13] <harold> alright
[04:12:29] <zeeshan> 20k isn't enough for a real cnc machine
[04:12:35] <zeeshan> if youre looking for a hobby type
[04:12:36] <harold> btw when I said "best cnc milling machine" what did you guys think?
[04:12:36] <zeeshan> tormach
[04:12:44] <harold> a 5-axis milling machine?
[04:12:53] <zeeshan> not 5 axis...
[04:13:03] <harold> why not?
[04:13:19] <furrywolf> since best is highly application and user dependent, we thought "a useless question with no answer".
[04:13:54] <harold> not useless, juist misguinded and uninformed!
[04:13:57] <harold> hey im new at this okay!
[04:14:32] <harold> anyway - it seems that hypermill goes for around $26,000
[04:14:45] <harold> and... well, it seems to produce top notch results
[04:14:48] <harold> what do you guys think of it?
[04:14:50] <zeeshan> LOL
[04:15:14] <harold> wat
[04:15:40] <harold> are you LOL'ing at me?
[04:15:49] <zeeshan> im loling at you thinking
[04:15:55] <zeeshan> the dmu60p by deckel
[04:16:01] <zeeshan> (the machine in that video) costing 20k
[04:16:04] <zeeshan> er 26k
[04:16:11] <furrywolf> how big of parts do you need to make? do you need 3, 4, or 5 axis? what kind of control system do you want? are you making big flat things better done with a cnc router, plasma, or laser table? what kind of tooling do you plan on using? do you need a tool changer? pallets?
[04:16:25] <zeeshan> hypermill is a CAM software
[04:16:27] <zeeshan> not a cnc machine.
[04:16:32] <furrywolf> are you budgeting in the cost of tooling, which can easily run many thousands?
[04:17:29] <norias> hypermill?
[04:17:58] <norias> oh, right, CAM
[04:18:11] <norias> deckel makes some serious machines
[04:18:55] <zeeshan> http://www.machmarket.com/en/millers/OTHER/DECKEL-MAHO/AS3808/29
[04:19:03] <zeeshan> notice the cost for the used version of that machine in that video
[04:19:07] <zeeshan> about 350000 usd
[04:19:20] <harold> furrywolf: the parts i want to make almost never exceed 15x15x15"; I think I need a 5 axis; I don't know what kind of control system I want; the things I'm making are often not flat -- here's a screenshot of my solidworks dir -- these parts are all parts i printed with a 3dprinter, i will be printing similar things: http://i.gyazo.com/f2b84dc433bcccdf90a215b7ea7c7f6f.png
[04:19:35] <norias> hmm
[04:19:45] <norias> why... do you think you need 5 axis?
[04:20:11] <zeeshan> i havent seen a 5axis
[04:20:14] <zeeshan> less than 200k
[04:20:14] <zeeshan> new
[04:20:17] <norias> i'm definitely not seeing 5 axis here
[04:20:22] <norias> not these parts
[04:20:28] <furrywolf> 15x15x15 puts you larger than most hobby machines. 5 axis is expensive. most expensive machines come with proprietary control systems and additional costs. a used machine with an outdated control system, converted to linuxcnc, is much cheaper.
[04:20:33] <zeeshan> norias i see 5 axis for the "tony big box thing small.sldprt"
[04:20:37] <zeeshan> you could make that part in 1 setup
[04:20:45] <zeeshan> would be nice to have
[04:20:56] <norias> sure
[04:21:01] <norias> but you can do it 3 axis
[04:21:30] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/yjWp29D.jpg
[04:21:37] <zeeshan> i got an interesting pattern today with my film testing
[04:22:00] <norias> harold, i don't think you need a 5 axis
[04:22:10] <norias> 20k is going to be hard to hit for a new machine
[04:22:22] <norias> i usually budget machine cost x2
[04:22:24] <harold> norias: oh, btw the main reason we're interested in getting away from 3dprinting is: we want to be able to print stuff other than pla/albs -- aluminum is what we want; and most importantly: we want higher resolution parts
[04:22:28] <norias> for machine, tooling, install
[04:22:45] <furrywolf> harold: I think you're greatly underestimating the cost of a machine with the features you're thinking of.
[04:22:50] <norias> how many machinists do you have, harold?
[04:22:51] <harold> norias: hmm, okay. I recall reading somewhat that the hypermill I linked to was $26,000. you say it's 200k?
[04:22:56] * zeeshan is offendend at machining being called printing
[04:22:57] <zeeshan> :[
[04:23:03] <norias> hypermill is software
[04:23:15] <norias> that you use to program the machine
[04:23:24] <harold> zeeshan: i never called machining printing. I said we want to move away from printing for reasons i cited
[04:23:25] <norias> the machine you showed us is made by deckel
[04:23:31] <harold> norias: ahhhh
[04:23:36] <norias> and they usually do run in the 200K + realm
[04:23:43] <harold> norias: god that's a phenomenol mistake isn't it
[04:23:52] <norias> happens, man, no sweat
[04:23:56] <zeeshan> you can find a 5 axis used for around 80000
[04:23:59] <zeeshan> to 90000
[04:24:00] <harold> norias: so the damn software itself costs $20K huh, jesus
[04:24:04] <norias> yeah
[04:24:12] <norias> you can do with less
[04:24:23] <norias> you need $20k software to run $200k machines
[04:24:32] <norias> you can get less expensive software
[04:24:36] <norias> for less expensive machines
[04:24:46] <norias> but still what you are proposing could get expensive
[04:24:58] <harold> norias: have you heard of these new things on the block -- the carbide3d, the shapeoko, etc.?
[04:25:09] <harold> which cost only $3K and such?
[04:25:13] <norias> yeah
[04:25:19] <harold> what are your thoughts onthat?
[04:25:28] <norias> cool for really small parts, i guess
[04:25:34] <norias> maybe some aluminum
[04:25:52] <norias> i'd say convenient for a bunch of engineers to get something better than 3d printing
[04:25:55] <norias> if you work at it
[04:26:21] <norias> may i ask why you don't want to 3d print
[04:26:23] <norias> to check design
[04:26:31] <norias> then get a prototype made at a machine shop?
[04:26:39] <norias> is it time, or money?
[04:27:07] <zeeshan> http://carbide3d.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/qualityandcraftsmanship_LQ.jpg
[04:27:09] <harold> we don't want to 3d print, because
[04:27:16] <zeeshan> you really think this machine is going to cut aluminum norias? :d
[04:27:32] <norias> i think it will cut aluminum
[04:27:33] <norias> slowly
[04:27:47] <harold> our 3dprinter (the ultimaker 2) isn't giving us high enough resolution parts. secondly, we often find ourselves wanting stronger material -- like aluminum, instead of plasticy things like abs and pla
[04:27:54] <norias> i'm not certain it will achieve excellent tolerances
[04:27:55] <zeeshan> its held up by 2 c channel
[04:27:56] <zeeshan> !
[04:28:04] <norias> hah
[04:28:20] <norias> harold: why not send it to a machine shop?
[04:28:28] <harold> norias: we actually did,
[04:28:32] <norias> what happened?
[04:28:41] <harold> norias: they made beautiful parts
[04:28:45] <norias> great!
[04:29:07] <harold> norias: but it cost us 2 weeks. we're a research lab, we want the part tomorrow if not tonight
[04:29:16] <norias> ok, that's fair
[04:29:28] <norias> i used to run a machine shop that did parts for a research lab
[04:29:32] <norias> i understand your concern
[04:29:39] <norias> so, time is the problem
[04:29:47] <zeeshan> research labs outsource their parts manufacturing? :p
[04:30:00] <norias> research labs need all sorts of little bits made
[04:30:03] <norias> for their labs
[04:30:11] <norias> special fixtures, etc
[04:30:11] <zeeshan> i wish my lab would outsource shit
[04:30:19] <zeeshan> so i wouldnt have to machine all this stuff :/
[04:30:33] <norias> lol
[04:30:41] <harold> and money. before we were 3dprinting parts, we used to get parts printed at makerbot. for 7 hours worth of printing time they charged us like 300 dollars. we print things all the time on our printer, and it costs us pennies usually (literally)
[04:30:43] <zeeshan> they must be trolling me
[04:30:44] <zeeshan> :{
[04:31:08] <furrywolf> I wish I could work in a research lab.
[04:31:20] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you will need edumucation!
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[04:31:36] <harold> you don't need edumucation to work in a research lab, you need 'contacts'
[04:31:38] <norias> harold... doing machining in house
[04:31:44] <harold> yes?
[04:31:44] <norias> won't save you much money
[04:31:46] <norias> honestly
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[04:31:54] <zeeshan> harold depends on research lab
[04:31:55] <zeeshan> lol
[04:31:55] <norias> baseline, you probably need...
[04:32:01] <harold> that's ok, money-saving is a secondadry concern
[04:32:05] <norias> $20k Used Haas VF-2
[04:32:15] * harold googles
[04:32:16] <norias> you could look at the VF-1 also
[04:32:20] <zeeshan> unless youre a technician working there
[04:32:27] <norias> but then you also get about $20k worth of stuff
[04:32:30] <norias> to make it work
[04:32:34] <norias> someone has to crane it in
[04:32:34] <zeeshan> almost all these guys are phd
[04:32:43] <norias> it needs special power supply
[04:32:59] <norias> you need to learn cam
[04:33:06] <norias> and machining
[04:33:10] <norias> then run the parts
[04:33:16] <norias> unless you hire a machinist
[04:33:18] <zeeshan> norias machining is ez
[04:33:22] <zeeshan> so is cam
[04:33:23] <norias> budget $50k a year for that
[04:33:24] <zeeshan> you can learn it in 2 days
[04:33:38] <norias> :)
[04:33:45] <norias> true, zeeshan
[04:33:46] <furrywolf> zeeshan: eh, I find I learn at least as quickly actually doing things rather than being edumucated on things.
[04:33:51] <harold> I learned solidworks from scratch in about 4 months, I bet I can learn cam \o/. (but seriously: you'd agree that the skill required to be able to print a part is similar to program cam? I hope it is)
[04:34:11] <norias> i think it's about another ... 2 months?
[04:34:13] <furrywolf> no, cam is harder than printing.
[04:34:13] <zeeshan> harold are you master at solidworks now
[04:34:27] <norias> to put it in perspective
[04:34:31] <harold> zeeshan: I would say so! my boss sure is impressed with the parts I've been able to print
[04:34:31] <norias> people that do this for a living
[04:34:36] * zeeshan is in troll mode
[04:34:42] <norias> often go through a 4 year apprenticeship
[04:34:43] <zeeshan> harold when youre making boxes with holes in it
[04:34:47] <zeeshan> solidworks is pretty easy :p
[04:35:04] <norias> are you in the US, harold?
[04:35:22] <harold> zeeshan: the parts we intend to machien will not be remarkably harder than the parts we're already printing, so I don't need to be a master-master
[04:35:29] <harold> I'm in US, but I'm asian.
[04:35:35] <norias> ok, what state?
[04:35:38] <harold> MA
[04:35:43] <norias> oh, perfect.
[04:35:51] <harold> we're having a party?
[04:35:56] <zeeshan> furrywolf: fortunately or unfortunately, you need the paper to get in
[04:35:57] <harold> my house?
[04:35:58] <norias> I'm going to recommend against getting a machine
[04:36:05] <norias> it's a much much bigger investment
[04:36:08] <norias> both in money
[04:36:11] <norias> and learning curve
[04:36:15] <norias> than printing
[04:36:17] <harold> ok? great. this is like the time I went to #dlprinting and people dissuaed me from getting a makerbot
[04:36:35] <norias> makerbot is cool, sure
[04:36:38] <harold> no it isn't
[04:36:41] <norias> i'm saying, i've done this
[04:36:44] <zeeshan> harold i think you should buy the hypermill cnc machine
[04:36:46] <zeeshan> for 25000
[04:36:47] <harold> anyway go on
[04:36:49] <zeeshan> and start machining parts
[04:36:53] <norias> i've done 3d printing
[04:36:57] <norias> i'm a machining
[04:36:59] <harold> zeeshan: not without your help
[04:37:01] <norias> i'm a machinist
[04:37:03] <norias> blah
[04:37:15] <norias> let me help you find a good shop
[04:37:21] <norias> that will turn parts around in days
[04:37:22] <harold> norias: sure. no really don't mind me, I know I'm a newb. :)
[04:37:38] <norias> it's cool, man. this is what i do.
[04:37:49] <harold> are you in east coast?
[04:37:52] <norias> yes.
[04:38:04] <norias> I am on the east coast, and I have contacts with machine shops
[04:38:10] <norias> on both coasts, actually
[04:38:38] <norias> but i can set you up with someone on the east coast
[04:38:46] <norias> because you need a small shop
[04:38:51] <harold> okie dokie. so basically you're saying don't get machine, instead just do business with a good shop
[04:38:52] <norias> that will turn stuff around fast
[04:38:55] <norias> right
[04:39:05] <norias> i'd help you get started with a machine
[04:39:09] <harold> would you say maybe we get something like carbide3d for the very simple stuff, and shop for the more complicated stuff?
[04:39:11] <norias> if you absolutely decide to do that
[04:39:22] <norias> but i'd just get a good shop
[04:39:38] <norias> the cost of the carbide3d ...
[04:39:41] <norias> *sigh*
[04:39:45] <harold> is $3k, penuts
[04:39:49] <norias> that's for folks that don't have another option
[04:40:01] <norias> you could get quite a few nice parts
[04:40:04] <norias> for that $3k
[04:40:19] <norias> seriously
[04:40:20] <norias> email me
[04:40:21] <zeeshan> if you have 25k
[04:40:22] <harold> well, really? I don't know about that.
[04:40:23] <zeeshan> i'd just buy a machine
[04:40:23] <harold> I mean,
[04:40:24] <norias> jared@rokcon.com
[04:40:31] <zeeshan> and learn how to use it
[04:40:34] <norias> and if you decide to buy a machine
[04:40:35] <zeeshan> its an investment well worth it
[04:40:38] <norias> i'll help you with that
[04:40:42] <norias> if not
[04:40:48] <norias> i'll help you find the right shop
[04:41:06] <norias> if i had to start another shop doing prototypes now
[04:41:17] <norias> i'd get a bridgeport-style cnc conversion
[04:41:24] <norias> and put a linuxcnc controller on it
[04:41:32] <norias> $10k out the door
[04:41:44] <norias> another $10kish or less in tooling and install
[04:41:58] <norias> i had a machine like that
[04:41:59] <zeeshan> why get a bridgeport when you can get a tormach
[04:42:01] <zeeshan> ;D
[04:42:05] <norias> and bang for the buck, it was awesome
[04:42:09] <zeeshan> its a knee mill
[04:42:14] <norias> right
[04:43:05] <harold> alright, I'll send you an email then, I've gotta get going for now. good night! :)
[04:43:15] <zeeshan> harold before you go
[04:43:16] <norias> sounds good
[04:43:18] <zeeshan> have you heard of tormach?
[04:43:26] <zeeshan> it really sounds like something that'll work for you
[04:43:28] <norias> oh man
[04:43:36] <zeeshan> and you can spend time investing on how to use it
[04:43:44] <norias> you are just. gah.
[04:43:48] <furrywolf> anyone have a 7/16 hex to 5/16 hex bit adapter they want to part with?
[04:44:01] <zeeshan> http://www.tormach.com/product_pcnc_main.html.
[04:44:08] <zeeshan> you can get the 4th axis addon
[04:44:30] <norias> i'm actually a little surprised
[04:44:35] <norias> there isn't a techshop in boston
[04:44:44] <furrywolf> I got a really nice power screwdriver in my pile of free stuff today, but it takes 7/16 hex bits, which are a bit unusual.
[04:45:02] <zeeshan> furrywolf: use your machine to mill some :P
[04:45:08] <norias> oh my!
[04:45:21] <furrywolf> milling an internal hex sucks.
[04:45:31] <zeeshan> forge it!
[04:45:33] <norias> zeeshan
[04:45:35] <norias> you are evil
[04:45:39] <zeeshan> why
[04:45:41] <zeeshan> i troll
[04:45:43] <norias> tormach
[04:46:05] <zeeshan> im trolling so hard tonight that i am actually advertising tormach
[04:46:09] <zeeshan> wow
[04:46:15] <norias> lol
[04:46:25] <furrywolf> it's an old skil, all aluminum, and HEAVY. I haven't tried stalling it, but I'd bet it has two handles for a good reason. only screwdriver I've ever seen that needs two handles...
[04:46:35] <norias> oh man
[04:46:41] <norias> i have this drill
[04:46:45] <norias> hand drill, powered
[04:46:47] <zeeshan> you dont even need to install linuxcnc on tormach
[04:46:54] <zeeshan> you can use the PATH PILOT
[04:46:58] <norias> i got a hole saw for it
[04:47:02] <norias> no, wait
[04:47:14] <norias> this huge drill that was instead of a hole saw
[04:47:22] <norias> did like 1-1/4" holes
[04:47:26] <norias> claimed it was the fastest
[04:47:31] <norias> didn't remind you
[04:47:38] <norias> that it required shit loads of torque
[04:47:47] <norias> first time i tried drilling a hole
[04:47:56] <norias> the damn thing nearly flew out of my hand
[04:48:06] <norias> i had to hang on to it for my life
[04:48:12] <norias> but it made holes FAST
[04:48:14] <furrywolf> I can do really fast 1+1/4" holes with my magdrill. sharp-as-hell core bits. :)
[04:48:33] <norias> heh
[04:48:43] <norias> i was drilling holes in the ...
[04:48:46] <norias> i can't think
[04:48:50] <norias> beams that support a floor
[04:48:58] <norias> to pass water pipes through
[04:49:08] <norias> so, holding the thing above my head
[04:49:11] <norias> on a ladder
[04:49:21] <zeeshan> dont you love it when a drill turns you into a helicopter?
[04:49:24] <furrywolf> http://www.canadamagdrills.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Hougen-Annular-Cutters-Rotabroach-Fusion-RotaLoc-Rotacut-609x359.jpg it uses those
[04:49:28] <zeeshan> you know its a real drill then
[04:49:29] <zeeshan> :)
[04:49:44] <zeeshan> annulur cutters!
[04:49:47] <zeeshan> ANALLUR
[04:49:47] <norias> i have long hair, too
[04:49:53] <norias> that drill grabbed my hair once
[04:49:57] <norias> that hurt like hell
[04:50:04] <furrywolf> hippy!
[04:50:08] <zeeshan> serves you right hippy
[04:50:09] <zeeshan> haha
[04:50:09] <norias> i know!
[04:50:10] <zeeshan> jk
[04:50:12] <furrywolf> lol
[04:50:20] <norias> i have robert plant hair
[04:50:24] <norias> i can't not grow it
[04:50:34] <zeeshan> im losing hair
[04:50:34] <zeeshan> ;[
[04:50:38] <norias> :(
[04:50:41] <t12> dang theres a schaublin 102-80 for sale locally
[04:50:42] <t12> for $1k
[04:50:44] <furrywolf> zeeshan: annular cutters are the way to go for big holes. they cut much faster and more efficiently than a twist bit or a hole saw.
[04:50:51] <zeeshan> furrywolf: do you know why
[04:51:04] <zeeshan> i dunno about holesaw
[04:51:08] <zeeshan> but vs twist
[04:51:29] <norias> no rubbing in the middle
[04:51:33] <furrywolf> why? twist bits remove the entire metal rather than leaving a plug intact, they don't need to mush a chisel point through the middle, and they cut 5-20 chips at once rather than 2.
[04:51:53] <zeeshan> 60% drill force = that crap in the middle
[04:52:18] <furrywolf> with an annular cutter, you're not even cutting most of the material. you just eject it as a plug when done.
[04:52:20] <zeeshan> the main problem with annular cutters is
[04:52:22] <zeeshan> you cant do blind holes
[04:52:23] <zeeshan> ;/
[04:52:29] <norias> :(
[04:52:38] <norias> i'll sell you my blind hole annular cutters
[04:52:40] <norias> if you want
[04:52:40] <zeeshan> i forgot the fancy name they call it
[04:52:42] <norias> as a set
[04:52:45] <zeeshan> i remmeber now
[04:52:46] <zeeshan> trepanning
[04:53:01] <norias> isn't that to let the demons out of your skull?
[04:53:11] <zeeshan> haha
[04:53:15] <zeeshan> i bet thats where it comes from
[04:53:31] <zeeshan> inr research papers they call it trepanning for some reason
[04:53:40] <furrywolf> my us-made annular cutters are quite nice steel... they sharpen up sharp.
[04:53:49] <zeeshan> http://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-gb/knowledge/drilling/application_overview/dedicated_methods/trepanning/pages/default.aspx
[04:53:53] <zeeshan> even sandvik called it that
[04:54:31] <zeeshan> norias ill take them for free!
[04:54:32] <zeeshan> :]
[04:54:44] <norias> i bet you will!
[04:54:54] <zeeshan> honestly if im doing big holes now
[04:54:58] <zeeshan> i just circle mill em out
[04:55:04] <zeeshan> or contour
[04:55:07] <furrywolf> you could probably build a blind hole annular cutter... it wouldn't be easy though. I'm picturing one with three cutting teeth, mounted on arcs on pivots, that can be made to rotate inwards after cutting down to depth.
[04:57:23] * furrywolf patents it and sells them to zeeshan|2
[04:57:42] <zeeshan> youll only need like 20000
[04:57:45] <zeeshan> $ to patent it
[04:58:19] <norias> i ...
[04:58:20] <norias> you know
[04:58:29] <norias> i don't think i'd ever patent anything
[04:58:30] <norias> maybe
[04:59:03] <furrywolf> I can see its operation in my head, so I believe it's doable. I'm not sure it's useful, however. :)
[04:59:07] <norias> at this stage of the game
[04:59:12] <norias> patents are most useful
[04:59:20] <norias> for big companies to create barriers to entry
[04:59:29] <norias> and to protect themselves from other big companies
[04:59:38] <norias> or to set up the groundwork for licensing
[05:01:42] <furrywolf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-APEX-USA-1-4-Socket-Extension-7-16-Hex-Shank-EX-251-4-4-3-6-/321648773630 that's useful... it'd let me use my screwdriver for various things with standard adapters
[05:03:27] <norias> incidentally
[05:03:46] <norias> i've seen like 5 different definitions of service-disabled veteran
[05:03:58] <norias> depending on the agency you talk to
[05:04:21] * furrywolf wonders what that is incidental to
[05:05:14] <norias> looking at federal govt. contracting
[05:05:25] <norias> i don't usually like to pull my veteran card
[05:05:31] <norias> but i think i will on this one
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[05:08:08] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[05:08:18] <norias> lates
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[05:15:20] <zeeshan> who to troll now ;[
[05:15:45] * zeeshan still cant find a cnc lathe to retrofit
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[05:19:11] <Computer_barf> humm.. i just did a process to build a kernel but still getting an error on runnning linuxcnc
[05:19:14] <Computer_barf> http://freeby.mesanet.com/makert
[05:19:24] <Computer_barf> these are the instructions I did to make the kernel
[05:19:57] <Computer_barf> deb http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ wheezy master-rtpreempt
[05:19:57] <Computer_barf> deb-src http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/ wheezy master-rtpreempt
[05:20:09] <Computer_barf> those are the sources I used to reinstall linux cnc
[05:21:37] <Computer_barf> "linuxcnc requires the real-time kernel 3.4.9-rtai-686-pae to run. before running linuxCNC reboot and choose this kernel at the boot menu."
[05:22:15] <Computer_barf> so that happened
[05:24:26] -!- zeitue [zeitue!~z@67.221.132.54] has joined #linuxcnc
[05:28:46] <Computer_barf> humm gonna reboot double check kernel
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[05:31:56] <Cromaglious_> /exec -o uname -r
[05:32:01] <Cromaglious_> 3.4-9-rtai-686-pae
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[05:33:44] <Computer_barf> k im back
[05:33:59] <Computer_barf> yeah seems im in the kernel I compiled
[05:34:05] <Cromaglious_> /exec -o uname -r
[05:34:08] <Cromaglious_> 3.4-9-rtai-686-pae
[05:34:23] <Computer_barf> sorry whats that
[05:34:36] <Cromaglious_> to see what kernel you're running
[05:35:12] <Computer_barf> http://freeby.mesanet.com/makert
[05:35:20] <Cromaglious_> /exec is run something -o is output to channel uname is program -r is uname option to show kernel version
[05:35:20] <Computer_barf> i just did the stuff in that link
[05:35:39] <Computer_barf> and ive rebooted into that 3.18
[05:36:06] <Computer_barf> i can run the command to double check but i just looked at it in the boot selection
[05:36:58] <Computer_barf> humm ran the first line of your command and got no such file or directory
[05:37:01] <Cromaglious_> I've been fooled before... I run uname from the command line to triple check
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[05:38:01] <Cromaglious_> I still don't really like running Xfree since it eats so much memory and processor slices
[05:38:36] <Cromaglious_> I haven't found a cli g code processor yet
[05:38:54] <Computer_barf> humm can't seem to get that command to work
[05:39:06] <Cromaglious_> I'm running xchat
[05:39:56] <Cromaglious_> it should work in BitchX on cli
[05:40:31] <Computer_barf> uname -r returns 3.18.11-rt7
[05:42:42] <Cromaglious_> looks like it was released April 13 this year
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[05:43:37] <Computer_barf> thats the one in the instructions from pcw, i can't imagine as the maker of the mesa cards he would be advising the wrong one
[05:43:58] <Computer_barf> it feels like , perhaps there is something wrong with my install
[05:44:21] <Computer_barf> I used the rt-prempt one in the buildbot sources
[05:44:50] <Computer_barf> feel like maybe i change my sources and try other versions
[05:44:59] <Computer_barf> idk
[05:47:50] <Cromaglious_> hmm kernel.org has 3.19.5 right now for straight kernel and 3.18.11 is latest rt
[05:47:59] <Cromaglious_> patch
[05:48:24] <Cromaglious_> so 3.18.11 is latest rt kernel
[05:48:57] <Computer_barf> yes this is what i have
[05:50:11] <Computer_barf> perhaps this is something with linuxcnc where its giving this notificaiton and there is a way to disable it?
[05:50:29] <Computer_barf> like its expecting a lower version of the kernel
[05:50:42] <Computer_barf> i wouldn't imagine they would design it like tha t
[05:52:26] <Cromaglious_> unless the kernel 3.18.11 requires a different libc than what you have
[06:00:30] <Valen> Computer_barf: why are you compiling kernels anyway?
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[06:02:07] <Computer_barf> im trying to get one that works with my mesa 7i76e
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[06:03:54] <Computer_barf> ive been told I need the rt-prempt patch
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[06:19:02] <Cromaglious_> hmm
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[06:38:39] <Computer_barf> Cromaglious: I started the process over and I see that when i config the kernel there is a setting deep in there for ""fully premptable kernel" , ive enabled it and am running make now to see if that works
[06:42:31] <Cromaglious_> ahhh buried gotcha's
[06:43:03] <Cromaglious_> yeah I remember compiling kernels 3 to 6 times cuz I missed an option of 4
[06:43:10] <Cromaglious_> s/ of / or /
[06:44:04] <Cromaglious_> I started editing the configure.* files to make the defaults what I wanted
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[06:44:40] <Cromaglious_> dang it fluffy went to bed
[06:45:21] <Cromaglious_> aka Furrywolf
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[06:47:08] <Deejay> moin
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[06:49:14] <Computer_barf> morning Deejay
[06:49:41] <Computer_barf> Cromaglious_: hope it is not 4
[06:51:51] <Cromaglious_> morn Deejay
[06:52:38] <Cromaglious_> it was when iptables was new back in 2.3 or 2.4 days
[06:53:03] <Cromaglious_> getting things setup for ipmasquerade and such
[06:53:38] <Cromaglious_> and some file system supports, and multiport serial options
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[08:02:26] <Akex_> #linuxcnc-fr
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[09:31:11] <newhere> hello, how i convert the stl file to gcode?
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[09:38:48] <renesis> cam software
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[09:41:23] <newhere> renesis: which software is recomende?
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[09:42:02] <renesis> hsmexpress is free for 2.5D machining, works well
[09:42:42] <renesis> fusion 360 is free for students and startups, file management is cloud based, works okay does 3d toolpaths
[09:42:59] <renesis> mastercam is not free, works awesome
[09:43:03] <XXCoder> hsmexpress nice
[09:43:57] <newhere> nice it's simulate the machine
[09:44:34] <newhere> what is 2.5D?
[09:44:45] <newhere> i have 3 axis X Y Z
[09:45:08] <XXCoder> 2.5d is like 3d but only top half is accessable
[09:45:19] <newhere> laser cutter is 2.5D?
[09:45:23] <XXCoder> ]for example, true 3d can make sphere, 2.5d can only do top half sphere
[09:45:33] <renesis> usuallt it means it wont do complex surfaces
[09:45:34] <XXCoder> nah laser is 2d
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[09:46:16] <newhere> ok so i do have 2.5D machine.
[09:46:18] <renesis> so basically pocketing and profiling, possibly with tapered walls
[09:46:19] <XXCoder> 2.5d can't do concave on side or under. unless you use specific tools
[09:47:25] <XXCoder> renesis: looks like hsmexpress requires solidworks?
[09:47:42] <renesis> not sure if they do a standalone version
[09:47:49] <renesis> i know the plugin version exists
[09:47:56] <newhere> i have solidworks 2010 that i get with the computer.
[09:48:10] <XXCoder> nice
[09:48:50] <newhere> technically it's even legal
[09:48:53] <renesis> i really like using the mastercam plugin with solidworks but ive been told it crashes way more than the standalone version
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[09:56:29] <newhere> how i create the machine/ table / vise simulation?
[09:56:43] <newhere> it's look very nice
[09:58:03] <newhere> i just need to make a cad file of the machine?
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[09:58:52] <JT-Shop> vismachine
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[10:02:58] <Computer_barf> ok so ive built a rt-prempt kernel , but when i run linux cnc I get " linuxCNC requires the real-time kernel 3.4.9-rtai-....
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[10:18:43] <newhere> gambakufu: hi
[10:23:29] <newhere> i need to give to the cam software the dimantion of the machine?
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[10:25:15] <newhere> ?
[10:26:01] <newhere> everyone disappeared?
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[10:28:10] <newhere> sumpfralle: hi
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[10:34:27] <newhere2> someone writhing here?
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[10:35:31] <newhere2> it looks like this room is frozen.
[10:35:56] <sumpfralle> newhere2: I guess it works?
[10:36:51] <newhere2> now i see.
[10:37:18] <sumpfralle> maybe it is the unusual quite time of the day ...
[10:37:29] <newhere2> sumpfralle: which cam software you are use?
[10:38:11] <sumpfralle> linuxcnc and pycam (currently not maintained)
[10:38:18] <sumpfralle> was that your question?
[10:38:33] <newhere2> i'm loking for something that somebosy can help me to configure.
[10:39:21] <newhere2> some guys here say that hsmxpress is free, ans work the best
[10:39:51] <sumpfralle> sorry - I am really not the right person to ask about software - I just used the two ones mentioned above ...
[10:40:16] <sumpfralle> (I have to run now - sorry - good luck!)
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[10:40:30] <newhere2> and from what i can see in youtube, it is also do a simulaion of the machine
[10:43:43] <archivist> linuxcnc can simulate the path or machine, but not material removal(yet)
[10:44:29] <archivist> I dont use cam either, I use inside rear of skull
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[10:46:09] <_methods> heheh
[10:46:18] <_methods> i don't think hsmexpress is free
[10:46:28] <_methods> are you talking about solidworks hsmexpress?
[10:49:32] <newhere2> _methods: acording to this video, it is free https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xek3cLCUxW8
[10:51:42] <newhere2> i need to do any setup to the cam program?
[10:52:07] <newhere2> like i did in the Linux cnc
[10:52:10] <_methods> free if you have solidworks hehe
[10:52:57] <jthornton> really?
[10:53:07] <_methods> i don't know that's what his video says
[10:53:25] <_methods> i have no idea i use mastercam
[10:53:36] <newhere2> i get an obsolete computer with solidworks 2010.
[10:54:38] <_methods> i'm sure your solidworks reseller would be more than happy to help you configure hsmexpress
[10:54:59] <syyl> thats mean ;)
[10:55:07] <_methods> hehe
[10:55:22] <newhere2> hsmexpress is autodesk if i'm right..
[10:55:38] <_methods> no it's dassault systems
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[10:55:50] <syyl> they are also known for a very good customer support :)
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[10:56:52] <_methods> now who's being mean :)
[10:57:08] <jthornton> looks like my XP is backing up to backuppc :)
[10:57:17] <_methods> congrats man
[10:57:27] <_methods> once you get it up and running it's pretty much bulletproof
[10:57:30] <jthornton> one more to figure out
[10:57:34] <_methods> just make sure you document it
[10:57:38] <jthornton> win 7
[10:57:41] <_methods> it's easy to forget what you did
[10:57:52] <jthornton> lol yea I need to document it
[10:58:18] <_methods> i learned my lesson one time when i had to go back and decipher what i did one time
[10:58:21] <_methods> like 3 years later
[10:58:45] <newhere2> http://www.hsmworks.com/download/hsmxpress/
[11:00:02] <_methods> well i guess camworks is autodesk
[11:00:09] <_methods> had no idea
[11:00:42] <newhere2> I'm really fraid of over power the machine, i have just 1HP spindle and relativly slow. 1800 rpm
[11:00:43] <_methods> In 2012 Autodesk, Inc. purchased HSMWorks. Today HSMWorks - the CAM solution for SolidWorks, continues to be developed for SolidWorks users by the same team that started HSMWorks over five years ago. With the backing of Autodesk, HSMWorks will continue to be the leading CAM solution for SolidWorks for years to come.
[11:03:40] <newhere2> how i can be sure that i'm not hit the vise or the table?
[11:03:49] <_methods> you can't
[11:03:54] <_methods> skill
[11:04:08] <jthornton> chicken check
[11:04:10] <_methods> a working knowledge of gcodes and your machine
[11:04:17] <_methods> haha
[11:04:23] <_methods> feedrate and rapid override
[11:04:52] <jthornton> cut air till your confidant in your work
[11:05:02] <_methods> ^^
[11:05:12] <newhere2> there is some way to simulate the machine?
[11:05:24] <_methods> in your cam package usually
[11:05:45] <_methods> just because the simulation runs fine doesn't mean it will run right on the machine
[11:06:13] <_methods> start with something very simple
[11:06:18] <_methods> a square or a circle
[11:06:22] <newhere2> if the simulation failed - dont even try it on the machine :)
[11:06:30] <_methods> not necessarily
[11:06:52] <_methods> the simulator has to be configured identically to your machine
[11:07:20] <_methods> then it may be close to real world performance
[11:08:11] <newhere2> i can pay about 300-500 for licenes.
[11:08:55] <newhere2> to avoid accident with the vice or the table.
[11:09:15] <newhere2> the vise cost more then 300
[11:09:21] <_methods> yes
[11:09:34] <_methods> have you ever programmed a cnc machine before?
[11:09:40] <newhere2> no
[11:09:43] <_methods> are you a machinist?
[11:10:03] <newhere2> no
[11:10:35] <_methods> if i were you i would stick with hand writing gcode until you have a better grasp on basic machining practices and the capabilities of your machine
[11:10:42] <newhere2> but i know solidworks very good
[11:10:48] <_methods> while you're honing those skills learn about cam packages
[11:11:07] <_methods> you'll need to be able to read gcode to avoid eating a vise or your table
[11:11:32] <newhere2> i work with the machin manual and it work grate.
[11:11:34] <_methods> thats just my $.02
[11:11:49] <_methods> crawl, walk, then run
[11:12:26] <newhere2> slow but safe
[11:12:30] <_methods> yes
[11:12:41] <newhere2> no i have monster motors.
[11:12:57] <newhere2> servos on all the axiss
[11:12:58] <_methods> that makes what you want to do that much more serious
[11:13:28] <newhere2> i want it to be safe.
[11:13:56] <newhere2> only the control box gonig to cost about 1000-1500$
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[11:15:20] <newhere2> mashcam is good?
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[11:21:35] <jthornton> for some real experience try Bob Crap
[11:22:19] <newhere2> jthornton: it's free?
[11:22:30] <jthornton> lol no
[11:23:11] <jthornton> I got it free with a mill I purchased and after trying to use it I would have paid them them to keep it
[11:26:24] <newhere2> MeshCAM look nice and easy but i cant see any collision detection, and i dont like the finish on the edge
[11:26:57] <newhere2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-82qFQGETo
[11:27:02] <newhere2> look the 8:28
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[11:30:26] <Computer_Barf1> so ive twice patched and compiled a new kernel so i can satisfy the need for RT-prempt so i can use my mesa 7i76e, as you get an error that it cant find the eth something.. so yeah i manage to compile the thing, boot into it , but then linuxcnc says "linuxCNC requires the real-time kernel 3.4.9-rtai-"
[11:31:22] <Computer_Barf1> ive added the rt-prempt buildbot sources and updated linuxcnc
[11:31:55] <archivist> newhere2, I write code on the machine and run without any fixtures then once the code is sensible add the part etc adjust gcode till it cuts
[11:32:57] * jthornton thinks newhere2 will have the most fun touching off tools
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[11:33:37] <newhere2> you write the Gcode your self???
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[11:33:52] <Computer_Barf1> im reaching full on bash my head into the table level of frustration
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[11:33:55] <_methods> yes and you should too
[11:34:12] <newhere2> no!
[11:34:16] <_methods> writing your own gcode by hand should be a pre requisite
[11:34:17] <archivist> newhere2, yes, because no cam does gears properly
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[11:34:40] <archivist> it is not that hard
[11:34:46] <_methods> if you can't scratch out a simple pocket you shouldn't be running a cnc
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[11:35:18] <_methods> or a drill cycle
[11:35:22] <_methods> or whatever
[11:35:22] <newhere2> for hole here hole there.. maybe, but for complicated parts.
[11:35:48] <_methods> if you can't do a simple part what do you think is going to happen when you start doing complicated ones
[11:36:08] <jthornton> hmm lets start with a moon shot, who needs to develop rockets first
[11:36:09] <_methods> but whatever
[11:36:12] <_methods> it's your machine
[11:36:21] <_methods> crash away
[11:36:46] <_methods> just make sure you video tape it heheh
[11:36:49] <newhere2> i know the very very basic in Gcode.
[11:36:57] <jthornton> lol
[11:37:11] * archivist develops the nuts and bolts before teh rockets
[11:37:27] <jthornton> aye
[11:38:28] <archivist> I also am completely unaware of any hobbing machine cam
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[11:38:38] <newhere2> it is not make sans for me to write the code manual for pendant
[11:38:45] <jthornton> where is Wernher when you need a rocket to go up
[11:38:53] <newhere2> it is too complicated geometry.
[11:39:05] <newhere2> like organic shape.
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[11:39:15] <_methods> i'm merely suggesting you start and learn with simpler parts
[11:39:30] <_methods> and write the code by hand to become familiar with the basics of cnc machining
[11:39:40] <_methods> especially since you have no practical experience
[11:39:44] <archivist> then you see that complex parts are built from simple moves
[11:39:52] <newhere2> i have a drill press for holes.
[11:43:41] <newhere2> hsmexpress replace the linux cnc?
[11:43:48] <newhere2> i cant
[11:44:11] <newhere2> i can't find a way to setup the machine dimandions.
[11:44:35] <archivist> in what
[11:46:09] <archivist> cam creates gcode, linuxcnc uses gcode as input to control the machine
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[11:54:34] <newhere2> archivist: in hsmexpress
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[11:56:38] <jthornton> a good question to ask in the hmsexpress forum or irc or whatever
[11:56:58] <archivist> you can exceed machine limits with a rotary table :)
[11:57:56] <archivist> I wonder how many cam programs can use that
[11:58:55] <jthornton> dang it is 7C outside
[11:59:45] <newhere2> you know about forum or irc for hmsexpress?
[12:00:13] <jthornton> no clue, I'm sure google knows
[12:00:41] <archivist> machine abuse and hanging off the side http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_06_15_Adcock_Shipley/IMG_1249.JPG
[12:01:08] * jthornton can't click on it till Monday
[12:01:42] <archivist> aw
[12:02:05] <archivist> I had to bite the unlimited bullet :(
[12:05:23] <newhere2> where is the motors?
[12:06:21] <archivist> that is a manual machine but it is an example the outside the machining envelope
[12:07:13] <_methods> hehe machining on an hoverhang
[12:07:32] <archivist> machine limits that get in the way, can be overcome
[12:07:46] <_methods> i bet that sounded exciting
[12:08:07] <archivist> was quiet
[12:08:10] <_methods> oh you were just boring
[12:08:29] <newhere2> this is your website?
[12:08:38] <archivist> newhere2, yes
[12:08:55] <newhere2> very impresive!
[12:09:20] <newhere2> lots of tools, and nice works
[12:10:50] <newhere2> WOW a woman!
[12:10:52] <newhere2> http://www.collection.archivist.info/showresult.php?prog=1&srcprog=searchv13.php&srcdata=title&Type=PD&Accn_no=91&subject=9379
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[12:11:27] <Tom_itx> never seen a woman before?
[12:11:41] <archivist> she will throw bags of coal at you
[12:12:23] <newhere2> with this amount of machines? no first time.
[12:14:24] <newhere2> i'm much more impress now from you website.
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[12:18:50] <archivist> a few of us record what we make and modify
[12:19:10] <archivist> even the failures
[12:19:47] <newhere2> i need to do it more..
[12:20:20] <newhere2> rearly take pictures.
[12:21:56] <JT-Shop> I managed to get out here early and start windoze updates and got 143 out of 145... maybe I can get my printer drive installed now
[12:22:10] <Tom_itx> heh
[12:22:27] <Tom_itx> i just finished a couple hundred
[12:22:57] <Tom_itx> BG knows best...
[12:23:45] <newhere2> you know where i can get 3 by 3 foot enclosure?
[12:23:54] <archivist> make it
[12:23:57] <newhere2> with door.
[12:24:17] <newhere2> i want something nice.
[12:25:02] <newhere2> http://www.abkinstal.pl/academy.html
[12:25:20] <newhere2> somethnig like that.
[12:25:54] <archivist> electrical cabinet, ebay
[12:26:14] <archivist> or local electrical distributor
[12:26:15] <newhere2> 3X4 foot...
[12:26:23] <newhere2> ebay??
[12:26:49] <newhere2> thay soo expensive.
[12:27:01] <newhere2> 800$ easy..
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[12:27:14] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Himel-Large-Metal-Lockable-Electrical-Enclosure-Cabinet-Box-600-x-500-x-150mm-/351340073394
[12:27:39] <newhere2> i need 4 times bigger.
[12:27:41] <archivist> but easy enough to weld up and paint
[12:28:10] <newhere2> i dont heve welder and i have no idea how to weld.
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[12:29:16] <archivist> I imagine you have a local sheet metal company
[12:30:12] <newhere2> i have no idea.
[12:30:44] <newhere2> i live in nyc, than move to up state new york
[12:32:11] <pcw_home> Computer_Barf1: (should you see this later), your error means you are not running the uspace version of linuxcnc
[12:32:13] <pcw_home> You either need to download it or compile it from source:
[12:32:15] <pcw_home> freeby.mesanet.com/wheezy-uspace-eth
[12:32:16] <pcw_home> (delete the "sudo apt-get install linux-image-3.2.0-4-rt-686-pae" line if you already have a newer preemt-rt kernel)
[12:32:17] <pcw_home> note that if you do not do the ". scripts/rip-environment" RIP thing, you will end up running the installed
[12:32:19] <pcw_home> version of linuxcnc (built for RTAI)
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[12:37:47] <archivist> ex hardinge cabinet http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HARDINGE-DSM59-LATHE-ELECTRICAL-CABINET-CONTROL-BOX-/201340157756
[12:38:43] <archivist> I wonder, if that is the guy who added linuxcnc and is making the Ferrari engine
[12:39:43] <archivist> http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/
[12:44:23] <SpeedEvil> A real shame that the project seems to ahve stalled
[12:45:53] <archivist> or the website has stalled
[12:48:12] <SpeedEvil> more hopefully in some ways
[12:50:38] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-ML7-lathe-/231544525506?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e92112c2 /me ponders
[12:50:45] <Tom_itx> i bet that only took him a couple hrs
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[13:04:15] <newhere2> he type 1/4 scale..
[13:04:53] <newhere2> there is lots of peapole that build models.
[13:05:13] <newhere2> or you talking about spesipic case.
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[13:18:41] <_methods> anyone know what harbor freight does with the stuff that gets returned to them?
[13:18:55] <_methods> do they just throw it in the dumpster out back or soemthing?
[13:21:26] <Tom_itx> repackage it and put it back on the shelf
[13:21:31] <_methods> hahah
[13:21:33] <_methods> probably so
[13:21:44] <_methods> that's why i was wondering
[13:22:19] <Tom_itx> if you're buying something you seriously want to keep, don't buy it there
[13:22:38] <_methods> well i was thinking their dumpster might be fun to go dive
[13:23:01] <_methods> that's why i was wondering what they do with their returns
[13:23:04] <Tom_itx> just a bunch of junk that probably didn't work anyway
[13:23:18] <_methods> that's most of their stuff to begin with ahahah
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[13:23:43] <Tom_itx> i've gotten a few one time use automotive tools
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[13:23:57] <_methods> i get my nitrile gloves there
[13:24:05] <_methods> and chip brushes
[13:24:08] <_methods> hehe
[13:24:28] <_methods> i bought some gojo there and it doesn't clean shit
[13:24:33] <_methods> i won't ever buy that there again
[13:24:48] <_methods> it has like no grit in it
[13:24:56] <_methods> it's like gojo lotion
[13:25:22] <Rab> _methods, the stores here have a shelf out front where you can actually buy returns.
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[13:25:36] <Tom_itx> hahaha i told you...
[13:26:30] <Rab> The prices aren't particularly cheap, either. I think they're a discount off list, not the usual sale prices.
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[13:32:58] <_methods> hmm
[13:33:22] <_methods> i bought a returned hobart stick welder from HF
[13:33:38] <_methods> someone broke the handle that changes teh amps or volts or whatever
[13:33:46] <_methods> works great though
[13:33:55] <_methods> well as good as a hobart stick welder can work that is
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[13:38:34] <archivist> SpeedEvil, the fight has not started yet for that
[13:40:48] * SpeedEvil suffers context failure.
[13:41:21] <archivist> your last line in here!
[13:41:45] <archivist> well worn myford
[13:41:46] <SpeedEvil> yeah, I know
[13:42:24] <archivist> the model makers fight for them
[13:43:00] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Herbert-no-4-senior-preoptive-lathe-/141642422563?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item20fa8bd923 - not so fought for
[13:43:44] <archivist> proper meaty lathe
[13:44:05] <SpeedEvil> I could almost afford that.
[13:44:16] <SpeedEvil> Minor issue around not posessing a suitable teleporter.
[13:45:13] <archivist> I have spent many hours operating a Herbert No 1
[13:45:56] <SpeedEvil> That'd weigh what - couple of tons?
[13:45:58] <archivist> No4 is going to be a big old lump
[13:54:56] <newhere2> what is "post prosesor"
[13:55:55] <archivist> cam programs produce an intemediate code, the post processor converts that to a particular machines gcode
[14:00:59] <newhere2> in our case is the post prosesor need ti mach the linux cnc ?
[14:02:02] <archivist> for best results yes, you may get away with something like the fanuc one
[14:03:44] <_methods> you'll need a post processor
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[14:04:22] <archivist> or use the fanuc one as a starting point and modify it
[14:06:10] <newhere2> modify???
[14:06:39] <archivist> edit/program
[14:07:02] <_methods> yeah i'm just saying you MUST have some post processor
[14:07:20] <_methods> otherwise you won't be able to generate gcode from the cam toolpaths
[14:07:40] <_methods> what post processor you use/modify is up to you
[14:08:08] <_methods> but a fanuc/haas post would be a good starting point for most machines
[14:08:39] <_methods> that herbert was a steal at that price
[14:09:33] <_methods> good iron in that
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[14:15:53] <SpeedEvil> _methods: yeah - but at some point you go from 'oooh - big lathe' to 'fuck - everything is murderously expensive on this to repair and I can't fucking lift it'
[14:16:06] <_methods> this is true
[14:16:14] <SpeedEvil> I suspect the herbert may be on the far edge of that line
[14:16:15] <_methods> that's why i have my little teeny tiny machines
[14:17:06] <SpeedEvil> I mean - yes - being able to face an engine block in your 4-jaw may be cool, but...
[14:17:39] <_methods> but what lol
[14:17:41] <_methods> that's cool
[14:18:27] <SpeedEvil> But if you have no place to put a machine that size, and your electricity supply won't cope, and ...
[14:18:32] <_methods> hahah
[14:18:34] <_methods> details
[14:18:36] <_methods> details
[14:18:48] <SpeedEvil> And yes, I still want it.
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[14:23:01] <archivist> go fetch!
[14:23:41] <archivist> herbert No1 is more home workshop sized
[14:24:26] <archivist> the one I used to operate http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_Richards_of_Burton_clockworks/P1010205.JPG
[14:24:47] <Jymmm> YAY MOM http://abc7.com/news/video-angry-baltimore-mom-beats-son-suspected-of-rioting/684791/
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[14:26:21] <Tom_itx> old news
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[14:26:58] <FinboySlick> archivist: Hmmm... Is it still that messy?
[14:27:29] <archivist> FinboySlick, that place shut down
[14:28:04] <archivist> we emptied it
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[14:29:10] <archivist> and I never asked for any of the capstans to follow me home
[14:30:13] <archivist> FinboySlick, "true" extent of the pile as was http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/
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[14:31:21] <_methods> yeah i don't think i could work in that
[14:32:16] <archivist> uncover a machine, use it for a day or two, leave it resting for a couple of years
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[14:32:35] <_methods> looks like an episode of hoarders
[14:32:55] <archivist> should have taken pics before I tidied it a bit :)
[14:33:51] <_methods> some nice machines though
[14:34:14] <_methods> http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010229.JPG
[14:34:16] <_methods> hahah
[14:34:17] <_methods> classic
[14:34:32] <_methods> hold on let me unbury the punch
[14:34:44] <archivist> I used that for one job only
[14:35:03] <_methods> i would be too scared to use it in that location
[14:35:08] <_methods> you might cause an avalanche
[14:35:11] <archivist> that was the undergrowth after it got used :)
[14:35:37] <_methods> http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010228.JPG
[14:35:39] <_methods> wtf is that
[14:35:56] <archivist> Boley jig mill
[14:36:00] <_methods> wild
[14:36:08] <_methods> got a indexer built into the table
[14:36:18] <archivist> some good ideas some bad
[14:36:40] <_methods> bet it drills some nice straight holes
[14:36:45] <archivist> it has an xy above the rotary, very useful
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[14:37:13] <archivist> ex boss wanted to keep that grrrrrr
[14:37:17] <_methods> hahah
[14:37:21] <_methods> wow that place is epic
[14:38:49] <archivist> this gear was reasonable easy on the boley http://gears.archivist.info/gears/P1010013_335.JPG
[14:39:11] <_methods> nice
[14:39:33] <_methods> is a sprocket the same as a gear?
[14:39:37] <_methods> technically speaking
[14:39:54] <archivist> early bicycle sprocket
[14:40:02] * _methods hasn't made a gear or rack since school
[14:40:19] <archivist> has an odd shape chain
[14:40:33] <_methods> yeah that tooth form looked interesting
[14:40:50] <archivist> that and the original and other sprocket http://gears.archivist.info/gears/index.html
[14:41:19] <Rab> Looked like some weird heavy-duty escapement.
[14:42:43] <Rab> What a superb catalog of werks.
[14:42:58] <archivist> another job on the boley http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=ed+clock+hammer
[14:43:57] <archivist> just traverse the upper xy the wind the rotary for arbitrary curves
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[14:45:27] <archivist> and there is another axis under the rotary
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[14:53:25] <_methods> yeah that is a very cool machine
[14:53:28] <_methods> never seen one before
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[15:01:42] <zeeshan> is that a clarkson autolok
[15:01:50] <archivist> yes
[15:02:40] <zeeshan> want another one?
[15:03:11] <zeeshan> iso40 taper
[15:03:11] <zeeshan> i think
[15:03:29] <archivist> I have nothing with that taper in the hole :(
[15:03:37] <zeeshan> ohh
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[15:04:07] <ssi> MARN
[15:04:43] <zeeshan> sup
[15:04:46] <ssi> nutn
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[15:34:46] <zeeshan> is there some sort of cooling system i can buy
[15:34:59] <zeeshan> that when i add glycol to it, i can circulate this liquid at say -10C
[15:35:05] <zeeshan> but i need something that'll keep the liquid at -10c.
[15:36:09] <ssi> get some of that whatsitcalled
[15:36:43] <archivist> two bukkets of it
[15:37:13] <zeeshan> archivist: ill keep a large reservoior
[15:37:13] <zeeshan> for su re
[15:37:19] <zeeshan> but i need something that'll cool it to that
[15:38:21] <archivist> any heat exchanger with enough capacity and a sensible sink temperature too
[15:39:01] <archivist> insufficient data for meaningful answer :)
[15:39:27] <zeeshan> im asking for the equipment that will cool it!
[15:39:35] <pcw_home> http://www.thermoscientific.com/en/product/polar-series-accel-250-lc-cooling-heating-recirculating-chillers.html
[15:39:59] <pcw_home> probably not cheap...
[15:40:08] <archivist> the cooler size depends on your heat source!
[15:40:28] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i need to circulate between 300C
[15:40:30] <zeeshan> to -10
[15:40:51] <zeeshan> id think a liquid chiller is basically
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[15:41:02] <zeeshan> a long set of coils that can be put in a freezer unit? :p
[15:41:06] <norias> what are you trying to cool?
[15:41:09] <pcw_home> 300C is hot enough to melt solder thats tough
[15:41:26] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: are you placing objects into the glycol bath?
[15:41:28] <zeeshan> we have environmental chambers
[15:41:36] <zeeshan> that do 1200C to -40C
[15:41:39] <norias> oh,
[15:41:41] <zeeshan> but they are stupid expensive to run
[15:41:45] <zeeshan> and huge
[15:41:50] <zeeshan> meant for metal forming large things
[15:41:59] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: no
[15:42:12] <zeeshan> im trying to circulate fluid and add an heating element to this:
[15:43:06] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/zJRzJ8I.jpg
[15:43:13] <zeeshan> itll be redesigned to be thicker
[15:43:23] <zeeshan> so it can house the heating element inside it and have ports for fluid flow
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[15:43:38] <zeeshan> and then use a pid controller to control the temp
[15:43:40] <archivist> I have conteplated switching insulation for greater ranges and or better efficiency
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[15:43:59] <pcw_home> what I mean is closed circuit refrigeration is hard to do because of the heat
[15:44:19] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i was imagining a controller energizing the heating element
[15:44:26] <zeeshan> or solenoid valve to let fluid through
[15:44:35] <zeeshan> to get to the desired set point
[15:44:55] <zeeshan> so at -10c itll be all fluid flow. at 10c itll be a combination of both
[15:44:58] <archivist> actually, sterling cycle is bidirectional
[15:45:03] <zeeshan> at 90C itll be heating element mostly
[15:45:10] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: what temp is the incoming glycol to the chiller at? what flow rate?
[15:45:11] <zeeshan> at 260C all heating element..
[15:45:22] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: nothing decided yet
[15:45:29] <zeeshan> i just know i have to temp control this block
[15:45:44] <zeeshan> and how i just described it is how i am envisioning doing it
[15:45:44] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: some basic things you need to know to have an answer
[15:46:01] <zeeshan> flow rate isn't a big deal capt
[15:46:06] <archivist> the insulation
[15:46:06] <zeeshan> cause that depends on how fast i wanna cool it
[15:46:18] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: yes, it matters
[15:46:30] <zeeshan> right now i just wanna know if it can be done
[15:46:31] <CaptHindsight> so what are the numbers?
[15:46:36] <CaptHindsight> yes, it can
[15:46:36] <zeeshan> with the way im imagining it.
[15:46:38] <archivist> eg the deg c per watt to ambient
[15:46:50] <CaptHindsight> just need to know what you wish to do
[15:46:52] <zeeshan> using the controller
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[15:47:03] <zeeshan> that _is_ what a pid temp controller is doing right?
[15:47:06] <zeeshan> switching relays on and off
[15:47:16] <CaptHindsight> yes
[15:47:17] <zeeshan> or they have a triac
[15:47:34] <CaptHindsight> same things as far as current on/off goes
[15:47:56] <zeeshan> okay then i need to first look at pid control
[15:48:03] <zeeshan> i know theres cheap ones on ebay :P
[15:48:09] <archivist> stirling engine to heatsink drive to crank ondirection to heat other to cool, fat heatsink
[15:48:29] <zeeshan> archivist: i wanna keep it simple.
[15:48:36] <zeeshan> reservior of cold fluid that is being chilled
[15:48:39] <zeeshan> heating element
[15:48:46] <CaptHindsight> are there chillers to cool 300C glycol to -10C sure, How fast do you need to do it and whats the flow rate?
[15:48:48] <zeeshan> and just controlling their on and off time,
[15:49:06] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: it just needs to maintain a reservior to -10c
[15:49:15] <zeeshan> so thats highly dependent on the reservior thermal design
[15:49:25] <zeeshan> and where the reservior is stored
[15:49:42] <zeeshan> maybe it'd be better to store it at -20c
[15:49:45] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: what's the room temp the chiller is in? the lab?
[15:49:47] <zeeshan> cause my target temp is -10c
[15:49:52] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: yes
[15:50:00] <zeeshan> which is maintained at 22.4C
[15:50:02] <CaptHindsight> thermal equilibrium
[15:50:12] <CaptHindsight> how fast do you wish to achieve it?
[15:50:22] <zeeshan> it can take 10 days for all i care lol
[15:50:27] <zeeshan> as long as it stores it there for the test
[15:50:46] <zeeshan> so when i circulate fluid , it is cold enough to reach -10C at the sample
[15:51:01] <zeeshan> for a matter of 10 minutes
[15:51:03] <CaptHindsight> what flow rate?
[15:51:13] <zeeshan> whatever flow rate the controller demands
[15:51:20] <CaptHindsight> what incoming temp is the glycol?
[15:51:29] * zeeshan gives up
[15:51:33] <archivist> need real numbers
[15:51:38] <CaptHindsight> uL/day, L/sec?
[15:51:59] <zeeshan> ill figure it out
[15:52:01] <CaptHindsight> thsi determines what size chiller you need
[15:52:01] <zeeshan> thank u
[15:52:05] <zeeshan> i just needed to know it can be done
[15:52:26] <archivist> takes power to heat/cool, the temperature itself is less important
[15:52:27] <CaptHindsight> are you just storing glycol at -10c?
[15:52:41] <CaptHindsight> yes, it can
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[15:52:59] <zeeshan> archivist: i understand all that
[15:53:04] <zeeshan> i understand heat transfer.
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[15:53:17] <zeeshan> i was unsure about how the pid temp controller operation works
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[15:53:34] <CaptHindsight> how many pounds of metal can you mill?
[15:53:53] <_methods> hehe
[15:53:57] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: dont troll me
[15:54:03] <zeeshan> i explained the problem clearly
[15:54:07] <_methods> says the troll
[15:54:12] <CaptHindsight> just an example of a vague question
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[15:54:32] <archivist> you did not, you missed the important bit the thermal mass
[15:54:36] <zeeshan> the sample needs to hit -10 to 300C. i have a reservior of glyocol at -20C , i have a heatring element
[15:54:48] <zeeshan> you can visually see the thermal mass.
[15:54:50] <zeeshan> its tiny.
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[15:55:00] <zeeshan> enclosed in an aluminum block
[15:55:20] <archivist> the blocks thermal mass is not tiny
[15:55:38] <zeeshan> they will be in a well enclosed chamber.
[15:55:41] <zeeshan> (insulated)
[15:56:11] <zeeshan> also aluminum has very high conductivity..
[15:56:18] <zeeshan> so if it were at 260C
[15:56:27] <zeeshan> and i circulated -20C fluid through it, it'd rapidly drop
[15:56:37] <jtektool> Can someone please explain pin polarity for me on a anilam controller to 7i77 mesa card. I have 8 I/O wires coming in to the card: Estop OK, (2)Ground 24v, All Limits OK (pre resistor),Servo Reset, KA GND Energize, (2) All limits ok (post 2.2k res)
[15:56:38] <zeeshan> its just a matter of time
[15:57:53] <t12> `.
[15:57:53] <t12> `.
[15:57:54] <t12> s
[15:58:35] <t12> er
[15:58:45] <CaptHindsight> http://imagebin.ca/v/1ztphWKVKTyP 3 water baths at 3 different temps, a 2Kg bag of water is placed in each. How long it takes for the bag to reach a certain temp was fodder for a team of PhD's for several weeks. So I blame the schools today.
[15:59:29] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: that is a well defined problem
[15:59:33] <zeeshan> well past the conceptual stage
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[16:00:06] <zeeshan> you know fluid properties, metal enclosure properties, whatever insulation there is (if any) and room temp
[16:00:22] <zeeshan> and approximate using horizontal plate convection formulas
[16:00:29] <zeeshan> to get a rough idea
[16:00:42] <CaptHindsight> you just need to define your problem
[16:00:57] <zeeshan> you sometimes can't the way you want to.
[16:01:05] <zeeshan> especially when you're given equipment to work with
[16:01:27] <zeeshan> its a highly iterative process
[16:01:50] <_methods> jtektool: what's your question exactly?
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[16:09:00] <jtektool> well ok, i guess i should start off I've got the relay circuit functioning properly, because i wired up a network of leds to light up and tell me when the limits are good, estop ok, and servo enabled. the machine waits for an output from the 7i77 which is the signa KA GND Energize to enable the servo's which is negative
[16:10:23] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: is that the speckle pattern in the center hole?
[16:10:31] <archivist> zeeshan, your real problem is the glycol boiling point
[16:11:19] <jthornton> that sounds like my Anilam 1100M...
[16:12:06] <CaptHindsight> there are some glycols with boiling points over 300C
[16:12:17] <CaptHindsight> or he can keep it under pressure
[16:12:22] <jtektool> Its a Anilam crusader M
[16:13:44] <jthornton> IIRC I had to ground the enable line to turn the drives on... can't seem to find a wiring diagram
[16:13:59] <CaptHindsight> Tetraethylene Glycol Butyl Ether (TetraBE) Boiling point ( o C) 332
[16:14:22] <CaptHindsight> CAS No.1559-34-8
[16:15:10] <CaptHindsight> TetraME Boiling point ( o C) 280-350
[16:16:05] <jtektool> that sounds right, but now i'm getting into the nitty grity of wiring the the actual wires of the machine into the 7i77 and turning the computer on without a real solid understanding of i/o pins on the 7i77 and how the polarity is set.
[16:18:13] <jthornton> the polarity only goes one way AFAIK on the 7i77 enable and pcw_home is sure to chime in and clear this up
[16:20:10] <pcw_home> Yes 7I77 output are sourcing only and inputs are sinking only
[16:20:12] <pcw_home> so outputs drive loads with common side grounded
[16:20:13] <pcw_home> and inputs sense positive voltages
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[16:22:44] <JT-Shop> jtektool, my drive enable goes to a small relay that the 7i77 pulls in
[16:22:45] <ssi> note that a lot of the cheap relay boards on the market that are designed to run with arduinos are active low, and they won't work with a 7i77 without some rework
[16:24:03] <jtektool> Thank you JT-SHOP thats what I needed to know.
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[16:35:12] <archivist> glycol corrodes aluminium too according to Dow pdf
[16:35:24] -!- micges has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[16:35:41] <_methods> silly details
[16:35:58] <archivist> :)
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[16:53:50] <CaptHindsight> we need non-reactive aluminum
[16:54:35] <jdh> transparent nonreactive
[16:55:16] <CaptHindsight> heh, when you oxidize the aluminum it does both
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[17:18:08] <_methods> isn't that glass lol
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[17:45:46] <JT-Shop> looks like windoze 7 don't like you to share the directories :(
[17:47:45] <_methods> i think i had to edit some whacky security setting
[17:47:48] <_methods> nlvm?
[17:47:51] <_methods> or something like that
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[17:48:14] <JT-Shop> I think I drilled down to the right place and fixed it... we will see
[17:51:08] <_methods> yeah i had to edit ntlm ssp settings or something
[17:51:14] <_methods> in security policies
[17:51:27] <_methods> http://www.tannerwilliamson.com/windows-7-seven-network-file-sharing-fix-samba-smb/394/
[17:53:55] <JT-Shop> thanks
[17:56:32] <_methods> hard to believe that is still an issue
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[17:58:40] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, let me know what you did to share win7 stuff
[17:58:56] <JT-Shop> I just followed the above link
[17:59:07] <_methods> i think i had to do some other stuff to get it working on a home win7 version
[17:59:16] <JT-Shop> now to see if it works... maybe a boot to be sure
[17:59:19] <_methods> professional those steps should work
[17:59:22] <Tom_itx> this is pro
[17:59:23] <_methods> yes reboot for sure
[17:59:35] <_methods> you have to reboot for those changes to take effect
[17:59:41] <Tom_itx> yeah every time you fart you gotta reboot windows
[17:59:47] <JT-Shop> yea
[18:00:50] <Tom_itx> does that allow you to share a whole drive?
[18:00:57] <Tom_itx> or just directories
[18:01:07] <JT-Shop> I managed to crawl out her at 04:30 and got some but not all updates... but not enough to install the printer yet
[18:01:10] <JT-Shop> dunno yet
[18:01:16] <_methods> i think you can share anything once you apply all that
[18:01:48] <JT-Shop> I just need to back up the documents
[18:02:15] <JT-Shop> it appears you can share the C drive now
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[18:03:08] <_methods> yeah you should be able to mount smb/cifs shares now on your network
[18:03:43] <Tom_itx> i'll check it after bit
[18:04:51] <_methods> i think you still have to jump through some other hoops to mount nfs shares though
[18:05:28] <_methods> on the windows box that is
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[18:11:34] <_methods> https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/963861855/keep-track-of-your-gases-with-ch4
[18:12:56] <_methods> finally a suitable use for a 3d printer
[18:12:59] <_methods> a fart detector
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[18:16:38] <CaptHindsight> wow, so no more having to use small children like canary's
[18:16:49] <cnc1> hi to all
[18:17:23] <CaptHindsight> $180,000 goal LOL
[18:17:26] <Tom_itx> yeah that seemed to do the trick, thanks _methods
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[18:17:50] <Tom_itx> does that make it more vulernable to the web?
[18:19:14] <cnc1> somebody know this
[18:21:38] <cnc1> http://imagebin.ca/v/201lWPZamuii
[18:22:27] <Computer_Barf1> anyone here compile their kernel so that they can get HM2_ETH working fro RT-prempt?
[18:22:31] <cnc1> were is my mistake
[18:23:19] <Tom_itx> Computer_Barf1, pcw made some comments directed to you yesterday about that
[18:23:44] <Tom_itx> or early this AM, can't remmeber
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[18:24:01] <Computer_Barf1> I managed to compile and boot the new kernel but linuxcnc complains linuxCNC requires the real-time kernel 3.4.9-rtai-
[18:24:23] <Computer_Barf1> humm i was talking about that with him yesterday but I might have missed something he said
[18:24:35] <Tom_itx> zlog
[18:24:35] <zlog> Tom_itx: Log stored at http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~tom-itx/irc/logs/%23linuxcnc/2015-04-29.html
[18:24:41] <Computer_Barf1> yay
[18:24:50] <JT-Shop> cnc1, copy and paste your error to pastebin.ca
[18:25:29] <Tom_itx> ok one pc let me map the drive, the other one didn't and i don't feel like rebooting atm
[18:25:36] <Tom_itx> didn't have to reboot the first one
[18:26:47] <_methods> Tom_itx: as far as i know it's not a security problem
[18:27:28] <Computer_Barf1> Tom_itx: thanks that looks like it will yeild some further information I can act on
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[18:27:35] <cnc1> pastebin.ca/2985620
[18:28:48] <JT-Shop> _tkinter.TclError: Togl: X server has no OpenGL GLX extension
[18:29:33] <JT-Shop> try one of the other displays
[18:30:14] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/ini_config.html#sub:DISPLAY-section
[18:33:45] <jtektool> I thought the samba windows 7 problems were fixed a couple years ago? I haven't had to apply that fix in a while. hmmm
[18:34:35] <_methods> yeah you would think that it would be a non issue by now
[18:38:25] <JT-Shop> maybe because I've not dl the zillion updates yet
[18:41:14] <andypugh> cnc1: Can you scroll down, the answer will be in the “Kernel” message section
[18:41:43] <andypugh> cnc1: Ah, no, actually I think I may know what the problem is
[18:42:14] <andypugh> cnc1: And I see that JT beat me to it…
[18:49:21] <cnc1> yes thank
[18:49:22] <cnc1> but i not anderstand : i nothing change hal or ini have install some nVidia driver/tools
[18:49:55] <cnc1> later deinstall and now
[18:51:26] <harold> good 3dprinters (worth ~10k USD) have feature resolution of around 100 micrometers. What kind of resolution would a ~50k CNC milling machine have? (I want to create this solid hemisphere, as high res. as possible: http://i.imgur.com/046HptP.png )
[18:52:28] <SpeedEvil> It's not that simple.
[18:52:54] <SpeedEvil> For example, a reasonable approach on some machines might be to spin the work, and gradually move the tool path over them.
[18:53:13] <Rab> harold, for $50K, why wouldn't you injection-mold or cast?
[18:53:15] <SpeedEvil> Which could get you in a rigid machine a surface finish of well under 1um.
[18:53:26] <harold> Rab: i need maybe 2 of them?
[18:53:29] <SpeedEvil> Also - for a hemisphere, you can simply sand it afterwards.
[18:53:34] <SpeedEvil> What do you actually need?
[18:53:47] <harold> Rab: isn't casting or injection-molding for when you want to mass-produce parts? (serious question)
[18:53:49] <XXCoder> pretty large budget for 2 half spheres
[18:54:12] <SpeedEvil> Just get a large ball bearing and cut it in half
[18:54:14] <XXCoder> that few parts I would just order em from some company
[18:54:31] <XXCoder> vastly cheaper than new printer
[18:54:45] <harold> this is just *one* of the things we need, I was just using it as an example
[18:54:51] <XXCoder> oh
[18:54:59] <SpeedEvil> What are you overall trying to make
[18:55:44] <harold> SpeedEvil: we're an optics research lab where we need small parts that fit inside systems, so that question is not answerable. but,
[18:56:02] <SpeedEvil> Including machining glass?
[18:56:14] <SpeedEvil> diamond turning optics is a thing
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[18:56:34] <harold> http://i.gyazo.com/f2b84dc433bcccdf90a215b7ea7c7f6f.png <-that's a screenshot of things we've 3dprinted, but would like to instead mill (because we want higher resolution)
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[18:56:56] <harold> SpeedEvil: haha, yeah, we wanna machine glass to make lens, but we weren't sure if even milling would provide high enough res
[18:57:13] <SpeedEvil> As a general point, with exceptions of course - mills don't do corners smaller than the tool.
[18:57:33] <harold> what's the smallest tool milling machines can have, for example?
[18:57:47] <t12> pretty small
[18:57:56] <XXCoder> quire small but can't do sharp inside corners
[18:57:59] <t12> http://www.pmtnow.com/end-mill/micron
[18:58:03] <harold> can you refer me to someone machining glass to make lens? would be curious to see
[18:58:15] <SpeedEvil> I don't have any links handy.
[18:58:19] <XXCoder> isnt glass tend to be cnc grinded?
[18:58:22] <harold> hmm ok, so going sub-micron is hard
[18:58:22] <XXCoder> glasses
[18:58:23] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: yes
[18:58:33] <t12> diamond turning is
[18:58:34] <t12> expensive
[18:58:39] <SpeedEvil> harold: Look at how optician lenses work
[18:58:42] <SpeedEvil> machines
[18:59:00] <_methods> zeiss
[18:59:03] <t12> http://www.nanotechsys.com/
[18:59:45] <Rab> harold, you might be better served by separate machines for optical and mechanical parts.
[19:00:28] <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
[19:00:33] <Rab> Everything in your catalog looks millable, but optical surfaces are something different.
[19:00:37] <SpeedEvil> It's likely several small amchines too
[19:00:49] <SpeedEvil> many of that parts list are probably better done on a small lathe
[19:01:12] <SpeedEvil> It also depends how much CNC you want to do
[19:01:23] <t12> the hex dish would be kinda annoying to make
[19:01:33] <t12> also the shrouds
[19:02:00] <Rab> Yeah, those aren't a bad application for 3D printing.
[19:02:26] <XXCoder> print then mill for more precision
[19:02:40] <XXCoder> get a cheap printer and print oversize a little
[19:04:14] <harold> Rab: so, we did 3dprint them.. but a lot of them weren't usable because it was giving us very high resolution parts. you know how you can see the "layers" of the printed part? that gives us trouble. sometimes because the printed part is not exactly what we wanted, we take it to our shop... but then we have to do weird things, like using the dremel tool veeeeery slowly and with lots of pauses,
[19:04:20] <harold> because otherwise the part melts
[19:04:36] <harold> s/it was/it wasn't/
[19:04:55] <XXCoder> yeah thats why I recommanded print oversize then mill it. no more layers
[19:05:16] <XXCoder> oh is it ABS though? has you tried acetone vapor on it if it is?
[19:05:33] <harold> and i don't know if you know, but most parts have a shrinkage rate of .3%, accounting for that, etc. is troublesome
[19:05:58] <XXCoder> http://blog.reprap.org/2013/02/vapor-treating-abs-rp-parts.html
[19:06:02] <harold> XXCoder: but you can't control the tolerances, it's a crapshoot
[19:06:07] <XXCoder> true
[19:06:12] <harold> though, we will start printing with abs! because:
[19:06:48] <harold> currently printing with pla, things melt when we want to drill a hole or something. abs gets soft and malleable at much higher temps, so it'll be easier in the shop if we want to modify the part
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[19:07:07] <XXCoder> yeah sounds like abs is way to go
[19:07:25] <XXCoder> print then mill seems best way too
[19:07:39] <harold> t12: will look into that, thanks - if we're able to make the kind of lens that we want to, we will be very happy
[19:08:12] <t12> expect buying and operating one of those to be
[19:08:15] <t12> very expensive
[19:08:21] <t12> or jobbing it out for tha matter
[19:08:23] <harold> are we talking 6 figures?
[19:08:26] <t12> yes
[19:08:32] <harold> low 6figures?
[19:08:33] <t12> and another 6 figures for a skilled operator
[19:08:43] <harold> alright
[19:08:47] <t12> my assumptions
[19:10:54] <t12> for one shot stuff its better to job it out
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[19:12:27] <harold> yeah I think that's what we'll probably had to do. we were surprised at how easy printing things with 3dprinters to our satisfaction was... I think we got carried away, thinking milling very high resolutions parts would be similarly easy
[19:12:33] <harold> hcave*
[19:12:36] <harold> have*
[19:12:37] <t12> its harder
[19:12:41] <harold> yeah
[19:12:46] <t12> subtractive machining is very different
[19:13:15] <XXCoder> 1/10 the resolution means 10 times more effort, cost
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[19:15:00] <XXCoder> jtektool:
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[19:15:29] <t12> if you constrain your design alot
[19:15:29] <Rab> harold, have you investigated Shapeways? They have much better capabilities than hobby 3D printing, if you can work with turnaround time.
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[19:15:30] <t12> its not so hard
[19:15:31] <XXCoder> JT_SHOP
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[19:16:00] <XXCoder> Rab: bit high price there
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[19:16:06] <jthornton> yes
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[19:16:18] <t12> whats the deal with speed lathes
[19:16:19] <t12> like this
[19:16:23] <t12> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hardinge-Pedestal-Mounted-HSL-59-Speed-Lathe-Inv-33268-/331542159603?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d3173e0f3
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[19:16:43] <t12> wheres theres... no bed?
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[19:16:59] <Rab> XXCoder, compared to a machining setup and training to operate it, might make good business sense.
[19:17:07] <XXCoder> true for one shots
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[19:17:26] <t12> or this
[19:17:26] <t12> http://www.ebay.com/itm/HARDINGE-SPEED-LATHE-WITH-CHUCK-AND-COLLETS-WORKS-GREAT-/381228480266?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item58c2fcf70a
[19:17:40] <_methods> they're made for single ops
[19:17:43] <XXCoder> dont think shapeways do tolence thing though
[19:17:46] <_methods> you set up a tool to quickly do one job
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[19:17:55] <_methods> chamfer a part
[19:17:57] <_methods> or drill a hole
[19:18:04] <_methods> or something like that
[19:18:12] <t12> ah just fixture it.. however to the stubby bed?
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[19:18:24] <_methods> the stubby bed has tslots
[19:18:29] <`Nerobro> I'd expect there was a lever and turret on the bed
[19:18:33] <_methods> there is
[19:18:35] <`Nerobro> or at leas ta lever.
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[19:19:03] <XXCoder> second one is nicer, has quick release
[19:19:11] <_methods> we usually keep ours set up for chamfering bars that go into machines with bar feeders
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[19:19:31] <t12> lathe shopping is kinda nervewracking
[19:19:33] <t12> in the HSM style
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[19:20:26] <gene78> is jon Elson about?
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[19:41:57] <andypugh> harold: For anything with rotational symmetry a lathe will be faster and more accurate than a mill.
[19:42:22] <andypugh> (And, for some reason, lathes are much more fun to work with, or is that just me?)
[19:42:29] <ssi> yes, definitely
[19:43:09] <_methods> happens so fast when something goes wrong on lathe though
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[19:43:25] <_methods> not much time to react
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[19:49:32] <jthornton> I think my ISP is messing with me...
[19:51:44] <_methods> and us
[19:51:59] <jthornton> are you seeing all my disconnects?
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[19:59:41] <Cromaglious_> Cannot load native library /home/robi/Arduino/arduino-1.6.3/lib/libastylej.so
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[19:59:55] <Cromaglious_> dang it, can't run arduino on here yet
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[20:07:26] <Jymmm> Anyone have a EU2000?
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[20:14:03] <Cromaglious_> nope. DP-7100 Diesel
[20:14:30] <Cromaglious_> 18 hours on 4 gallons
[20:15:16] <_methods> ah is that that legendary honda generator
[20:15:17] <Jymmm> You can buy extended fuel range caps on ebay for $45, or make your own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDkL593Wbt0
[20:15:28] <Jymmm> yeah _methods
[20:15:29] <Cromaglious_> granted only running less than 1/8 load
[20:15:45] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: yours is?
[20:15:55] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: yours is only 1/8 load?
[20:16:05] <_methods> can you even get them anymore?
[20:16:16] <Jymmm> _methods: what? the eu2000?
[20:16:16] <_methods> i know you can get the 2000i
[20:16:22] <Cromaglious_> no name 69db diesel genset. running at 1/8 load I got 18 hours out of 4 gallons
[20:16:35] <Cromaglious_> 5800W running load 6500 surge
[20:16:41] <_methods> i gotta get a gen before hurricanes start up
[20:16:41] <Jymmm> _methods: same diff, less typing
[20:16:51] <Jymmm> _methods: I LUST mine
[20:17:01] <Jymmm> _methods: did you see that video?
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[20:17:08] <_methods> no why?
[20:17:08] <Cromaglious_> old boss has a EU6500i
[20:17:17] <Cromaglious_> that's one to lust after
[20:17:21] <Jymmm> _methods: extended fuel range
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[20:17:43] <Jymmm> _methods: there are tri-fuel kits
[20:17:45] <_methods> i'll have to watch when i get to the house
[20:18:48] <Jymmm> and you AHVE to get a oil tube off ebay, AWESOME
[20:19:12] <Cromaglious_> Jymm: yes that is a given
[20:19:16] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Honda-EU1000i-EU2000i-GENERATOR-NO-MESS-OIL-CHANGE-/230564791455?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35aebb849f
[20:19:25] <Cromaglious_> so much cleaner changing oil with one
[20:19:31] <_methods> i got a watch on an 8kw lp gen right now
[20:19:41] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: I pre-measure oil into 12oz soda bottles
[20:19:58] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: and have a 2L soda bottle to drain old oil into
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[20:20:20] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: oil change takes 4 minutes
[20:20:30] <Cromaglious_> that works.. we used to dispose of old oil in 2liter soda bottles
[20:20:39] <Jymmm> aka no excuses =)
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[20:21:06] <malcom2073> Nice, I hated changing oil on the eu2000's we had at work
[20:21:31] <Jymmm> I just filled mine from a 5gal, what a PITA it was. I'll love that new fuel cap
[20:21:59] <Jymmm> malcom2073: That oil tube snaps in a pocket inside the engine cover too, so youcan always find it
[20:22:15] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Nice. I don't work there anymore, but if Idid,I'd totally buy a set of those heh
[20:22:19] <andypugh> I can’t watch bad-lip-synch-man
[20:22:31] <malcom2073> My generator.... well.... I dunno where its oil thingie is, havne't actually changed the oil yet :/
[20:22:56] <Jymmm> malcom2073: as hard as these things run, CHANGE THE DAMN OIL =)
[20:23:10] <malcom2073> Jymmm: In my defense... I've not actually run it yet :P
[20:23:23] <Jymmm> malcom2073: So, change it anyway =)
[20:23:26] <malcom2073> yeah
[20:23:39] <malcom2073> I really want an eu6000, but all the hondas are too expensive for my blood
[20:23:44] <Jymmm> you need the practise, like a pit stop, 4 tires in 12 seconds
[20:24:05] <Jymmm> malcom2073: used ones come up all the time if that helps any
[20:25:08] <Jymmm> When we had that 2 hour fucking enron rolling blackout that lasted 8 hours and lost our reef tank, and no fan/ac when the gf was sicking than a dawg, I said never again.
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[20:25:37] <malcom2073> Heh yeah, we were out for a week last winter, and about a week the summer beofre, so I got an old 1970's 4kw, almost done refurbing it
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[20:26:48] <Jymmm> You know how helpless you feel when someone is sick and you cna't do a thing to help.... yeah... NO
[20:27:18] <Cromaglious_> I paid $2350 for my 5800w
[20:27:45] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: I can carry mine with one hand <big silly grin goes here>
[20:28:15] <Cromaglious_> I can carry mine about .001" then I roll it on it wheels
[20:28:26] <Jymmm> Cromaglious_: Into truck/car?
[20:28:31] <malcom2073> I can't carry mine at all :/
[20:28:46] <Cromaglious_> truck it's about 450#'s
[20:29:00] <Jymmm> I can tandem two together if I needed to
[20:29:07] <malcom2073> That was the nice thing about EU's
[20:29:17] <Jymmm> and electronics safe
[20:30:15] <Jymmm> malcom2073: You would kill me if I told how much I got mine for
[20:30:20] <ssi> I have an EU1000
[20:30:31] <ssi> I bought it because I can carry it in the back of the airplane
[20:30:35] <malcom2073> Jymmm: Probably haha. Mine was only $300, so I can't complain too much
[20:30:49] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Mine was $250
[20:30:52] <malcom2073> Nice
[20:31:04] <furrywolf> I carry my eu3000is around, but not with one hand.
[20:31:10] <Jymmm> malcom2073: Off CL, the guy was going back to mexico and needed cash.
[20:31:11] <ssi> the 1000 is like 27lb
[20:31:20] <malcom2073> Jymmm: that's the best time to pick stuff up, when people are moving
[20:31:21] <Jymmm> ssi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDkL593Wbt0
[20:31:34] <malcom2073> I got my mill and lathe that way
[20:32:03] <furrywolf> I miss my other eu3000is. fucking tweekers.
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[20:32:07] <Jymmm> Cl has treated me well
[20:32:30] <Jymmm> LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRtFMOXzdBw
[20:32:30] <ssi> Jymmm: nice
[20:32:58] <Jymmm> Prevent gum up when storing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_P0dCg0oQY
[20:33:05] <furrywolf> I have the parallel cables and everything... but now only have one generator.
[20:33:07] <Cromaglious_> hehe using bluetooth to connect an older smart phone to computer to use as a DRO http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=801084
[20:33:26] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-OREGON-fuel-shutoff-valve-replaces-399517-BRIGGS-07-408-OREGON-/391070488025?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b0d9e15d9
[20:33:32] <furrywolf> bbl, working on van
[20:34:18] <furrywolf> fucking radiator popped on me today
[20:34:27] <furrywolf> plasic radiators should not exist.
[20:35:20] <Jymmm> No they should not
[20:35:40] <XXCoder> doh
[20:35:51] <Cromaglious_> Yep I'm still dealing with my plastic radiator issue on my caddy
[20:36:24] <Cromaglious_> goodluck finding a copper radiator that's affordable
[20:36:26] <Jymmm> I'm SO modifying my fuel cap. those B&S pet cocks are only $6
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[20:37:33] <XXCoder> isnt old radators tend to be brass not copper?
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[20:39:08] <Cromaglious_> brass is copper with a bit of zinc
[20:39:10] <Jymmm> ssi: did you see that last vid?
[20:40:03] <ssi> the modified cap one?
[20:40:05] <ssi> watching it now
[20:40:09] <Jymmm> ssi: Honda EU2000 - Prevent fuel gum up when storing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_P0dCg0oQY
[20:40:14] <ssi> oh no not yet
[20:40:30] <XXCoder> Cromaglious_: yeah, I thought you meant pure copper
[20:40:46] <CaptHindsight> what wrong with plastic radiators if properly designed?
[20:41:22] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: no such thing. The always crack as seams/right angles/filler pipes, drian valves
[20:41:25] <CaptHindsight> it's the not the plastic it's the cheapass manager that made them trim the shape down to save 2 more cents
[20:42:00] <CaptHindsight> design problem, not a material problem
[20:42:34] <Jymmm> you doont have as many issus with brass
[20:42:49] <Jymmm> and can repair them
[20:43:40] <furrywolf> my '68 truck has its original copper-brass radiator. my '83 and '84 subarus have original copper-brass radiators. my bmw's aluminum-plastic radiator popped. my 2001 van's aluminum-plasic radiator popped. I see a trend here.
[20:44:10] <XXCoder> I broke one and only one radator
[20:44:23] <ssi> Jymmm: nice
[20:44:28] <ssi> you know how I've kept mine from gumming up?
[20:44:31] <ssi> I only run avgas in it :P
[20:44:32] <XXCoder> it was because fan broke and it was on wheels for pollution testing
[20:44:39] <furrywolf> it's not a design problem, it's a material problem. if you take a chunk of the plastic, you'll feel it's all crumbly and falls apart in your fingers. the plastic fails with age, every time.
[20:44:44] <XXCoder> so it wasnt cooling off at all
[20:45:00] <XXCoder> so boom, it vomited coolant all over front :P
[20:45:12] <furrywolf> the stuff on my bmw no longer even felt like plastic, and just crumbled to dust when you rolled it in your fingers.
[20:45:24] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: it that why they don't make radiators out of old biscuits?
[20:45:33] <furrywolf> of course, poor choice of materials is a design problem itself...
[20:46:13] <XXCoder> anyway all others never broke. nd still solid. no dust
[20:46:29] <CaptHindsight> there are lots of thermoplastics and thermosets that will hold up just fine for a simple automobile radiator
[20:46:49] <XXCoder> I never use air bleed valve, it is always failure location. I just leave cap off and carefully pour coolant there
[20:46:58] <CaptHindsight> I think that you guys just like to complain :)
[20:47:04] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: you say that, and yet I've never seen a radiator made with any of them. every plastic cooling system component I've ever seen has failed, and the plastic is always crumbly.
[20:47:24] <XXCoder> furrywolf: have you considered your envorment? it may be bad for plastics
[20:47:36] <XXCoder> does it go over 100s for a month for example?
[20:47:40] <furrywolf> XXCoder: earth? yes.
[20:47:47] <furrywolf> lol
[20:48:06] <furrywolf> this is the pacific northwest coast. summer highs are '60s and '70s, winter lows are '30s...
[20:48:19] <XXCoder> northwest pacific here too
[20:48:29] <XXCoder> you got slightly cooler weather though
[20:48:48] <XXCoder> maybe you has plastic germins lol
[20:49:07] <XXCoder> that or they selling knockoffs using shit plastic there
[20:49:07] <furrywolf> no, such failures happen all over the planet. especially on bmws. heh.
[20:49:08] <ssi> plastic germans? ach, nein!
[20:49:09] <Jymmm> ssi: I dont like mine glowing =)
[20:49:18] <CaptHindsight> germins from germiny?
[20:49:24] <furrywolf> bbl
[20:49:26] <ssi> Jymmm: glowing?
[20:49:35] <Jymmm> ssi: the engine block glowing
[20:49:36] <XXCoder> glowing radator
[20:49:40] <ssi> why would it glow
[20:49:46] <Jymmm> ssi: avgas
[20:49:48] <XXCoder> ssi: cherry red
[20:49:53] <ssi> only problem I could see is if it has a cat, the cat might get plugged from the lead
[20:50:12] <ssi> last I checked, avgas doesn't make anything glow :P
[20:50:19] <norias> anyone ever try using linuxcnc for industrial robots?
[20:50:22] <ssi> it also isn't full of varnish
[20:50:31] <XXCoder> norias: probably
[20:50:34] <norias> apparently the answer is yes
[20:50:34] <Jymmm> ssi: and how much a gal?
[20:50:39] <norias> sorry, should have googled first
[20:50:41] <ssi> 3.40 is the cheapest I'm aware of currently
[20:50:48] <furrywolf> it's $6 or something around here for 100ll
[20:50:59] <ssi> 3.70 at my typical spot
[20:51:04] <furrywolf> we're paying $3.69 for regular unleaded autogas.
[20:51:26] <ssi> regular unleaded here is up to 2.50 or so recently
[20:51:34] <norias> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSQO3IkQ0Lo
[20:51:37] <furrywolf> bah. :P
[20:51:37] <furrywolf> bbl
[20:51:40] <XXCoder> ssi: centeral usa has cheaper gas
[20:51:46] <ssi> I run my generator so little, and it uses so little fuel that I don't really care about the cost
[20:51:48] <XXCoder> here its 3.50 something a hal
[20:51:51] <XXCoder> *gal
[20:52:00] <ssi> but I care a lot about the varnish
[20:52:08] <ssi> and the ethanol
[20:52:23] <Deejay> gn8
[20:52:55] <CaptHindsight> were down 60 ~$2/gal last xmas, now it's up to $2.69
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[20:53:08] <ssi> CaptHindsight: same here
[20:53:10] <CaptHindsight> 60/to
[20:53:20] <ssi> cheapest I saw was 1.89
[20:54:03] <CaptHindsight> probably >$3/gal by June
[20:54:16] <XXCoder> > $4 here probably
[20:54:53] <CaptHindsight> yet the cost per barrel hasn't gone up much
[20:55:24] <XXCoder> profits aloy!
[20:55:24] <MarkusBec> here 6.24/gal or 1,68/lieter :/
[20:55:25] <CaptHindsight> US crude settles at $58.58 from ~$50
[20:55:46] <CaptHindsight> yeah, but cost more in Liters :)
[20:56:23] <CaptHindsight> but soon we can just burn the water that comes out of our taps
[20:56:39] <XXCoder> fracking fracking.
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[20:57:35] <CaptHindsight> nah, it's just god somthin
[20:57:56] <XXCoder> fracking
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[20:58:52] <CaptHindsight> XXCoder: are you going to believe in facts and science vs popular opinion?
[20:58:58] <XXCoder> science.
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[21:02:07] <XXCoder> whee time to get ready for work
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[21:45:36] <jdh> summer gas starts may1, price always goes up in april even if oil doesn't
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[21:47:11] <CaptHindsight> well gas expands do to the summer heat so it costs more because its bigger
[21:47:36] <CaptHindsight> duh
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[22:03:50] <andypugh> The only radiator I have ever had any problem with at all is brass.
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[22:04:17] <zeeshan> hi
[22:04:55] <ssi> jdh: we had a spike in february and rumor was the summer blend started early because of the price drop
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[22:05:33] <zeeshan> andypugh: http://i.imgur.com/D51v3y0.jpg
[22:05:35] <zeeshan> dun dun dun..
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[22:06:10] <andypugh> Still seeing the zeeshan effect
[22:06:34] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/2VoQR29.jpg
[22:06:37] <zeeshan> same test setup
[22:06:43] <zeeshan> but non shape memory polymer film
[22:06:53] <andypugh> Aha!
[22:06:59] <andypugh> What be the black line?
[22:07:04] <zeeshan> section line
[22:07:05] <zeeshan> for data
[22:07:27] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/NupRSnM.jpg <- that
[22:07:52] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ZfSY6Em.jpg
[22:07:55] <zeeshan> thats for the smp
[22:08:06] <zeeshan> those areas resisting strain
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[22:08:15] <zeeshan> you can start seeing them very early on
[22:08:41] <andypugh> Are the lines aligned with a material direction?
[22:08:49] <zeeshan> i havent checked that yet
[22:09:05] <zeeshan> im meeting with a chem eng prof to figure out how they made this material
[22:09:12] <zeeshan> and maybe what this is
[22:09:33] <zeeshan> i feel like at higher temps, this resistance to strain will subside
[22:10:29] <zeeshan> man i have a lot to study
[22:10:43] <zeeshan> did you at some point have to make an experimental matrix?
[22:10:47] <zeeshan> to figure out wtf to do
[22:10:51] <zeeshan> cause theres so much..
[22:11:07] <andypugh> You have, what, 60 years to carry on studying.
[22:11:28] <zeeshan> 1 more year of masters left
[22:11:34] <andypugh> Yes. In fact I have written software to do Designed Experiments at work.
[22:11:43] <zeeshan> how does that work?
[22:11:48] <zeeshan> you input the variables you want to study|?
[22:12:37] <andypugh> Yes, and the expected level of interactions.
[22:12:49] <zeeshan> so like
[22:12:54] <zeeshan> strain is function of time, temp
[22:13:00] <zeeshan> etc?
[22:13:35] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments
[22:14:05] <andypugh> At work we have a sustem of 13 degrees of freedom and 4 noise factors. It is not possible to explore all of the parameter space.
[22:15:06] <andypugh> So, a “full factorial” matrix is not possible (change one thing at a time)
[22:15:20] <zeeshan> what is a noise factor
[22:15:38] <andypugh> So we change several things at a time and use statistical methods to analyse effects and interactions.
[22:15:54] <andypugh> Something that isn’t under the control of the system.
[22:16:55] <andypugh> So, with the engines we control injection timing, injection volume as 6 degrees of freedom (three injections) but then ambient pressure, ambient temperature and engine wear are “noise factors”
[22:17:26] <zeeshan> ah
[22:17:29] <zeeshan> that makes sense
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[22:17:51] <zeeshan> so your experiment would change timing + volume simultaneously
[22:18:03] <andypugh> Yes
[22:18:04] <zeeshan> for multiple experiments, rather than changing just timing for a given volume?
[22:18:14] <zeeshan> ah
[22:18:15] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_factorial_design is probably the best page to read.
[22:18:19] <jdh> minitab does DoE also
[22:18:44] <zeeshan> i will read after eating :)
[22:19:00] <andypugh> Yes, in fact we nornally just lest software generate a standard DoE
[22:20:06] <andypugh> I doubt that you are in that sort of situation at the moment, though.
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[22:20:39] <zeeshan> it feels like i have a lot of thigns going on
[22:20:46] <zeeshan> temp, time, pressure
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[22:21:01] <Jymmm> It's all relative
[22:21:12] <zeeshan> not really :P
[22:21:26] <Jymmm> Tell Einstein that
[22:21:30] <zeeshan> youre thinking ideal gas law =P
[22:22:44] <Jymmm> It's all inert to me
[22:24:28] <andypugh> There is a word I can’t recall for systems like yours where the path through the parameter space to get to where you are matters.
[22:24:45] <andypugh> It’s like the concept of a scalar or non-scalar field.
[22:25:25] <zeeshan> hm ;p
[22:27:10] <zeeshan> ive seen it in thermodyanmics
[22:27:14] <zeeshan> when something is path depedent
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[22:27:29] <zeeshan> i forgot for what
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