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[00:00:00] <zeeshan> like these sfms are close to almost grinding!
[00:00:20] <furrywolf> although the core bits on my magdrill do a quite impressive job.
[00:00:55] <furrywolf> their 10" blade is 5200rpm max. what's that work out to? :P
[00:01:54] <zeeshan> 13000sfm
[00:01:58] <zeeshan> thats grinding territory
[00:02:00] <furrywolf> :P
[00:02:27] <zeeshan> ill ask the expert
[00:02:30] <zeeshan> =D
[00:02:46] <furrywolf> who is?
[00:02:58] <zeeshan> the metal cutting prof
[00:04:55] <furrywolf> their new website doesn't seem to have the life data on it anymore
[00:06:18] <furrywolf> their document on setting the right cut depth shows "300+" cuts of 6" by 1/4" mild steel plate.
[00:06:29] <furrywolf> for their 9" blade
[00:07:38] <furrywolf> dropping to 128 cuts if you set your blade depth shallow, and 95 cuts if you set it to 1/4" so it just barely cuts through. in other words it likes cutting down through the material, not scraping along it. duh? :)
[00:08:05] <SpeedEvil> I note that that seems to imply it likes heavy chip loading
[00:08:34] <SpeedEvil> with very interrupted cut, versus more 'gentle' territory
[00:08:38] <furrywolf> yes, they do. when cutting with one, it tells you how fast it wants to cut... if you apply the right amount of force, there's an obvious happy spot.
[00:09:17] <zeeshan> 1800 " cut
[00:09:17] <zeeshan> lol
[00:09:27] <furrywolf> if you push harder, all it does is slow the motor down, and the cut slows down, not speeds up. if you push gentler, it makes scrapeier noises and sparks, and cuts slower.
[00:09:59] <furrywolf> 1800" for a 9" blade... I'd imagine the 14" is close to double, both due to spreading the wear over more teeth, and better angles, cooling, etc.
[00:10:34] <SpeedEvil> That is spending a whole hundred microseconds in the cut
[00:11:15] <zeeshan> I was looking at a cold sawing process and am confused on how the blades are surviving. They typically advertise that they can cut at speeds of ~5000-8000sfm (1500m/min - 2500m/min) and get 1800" (46m) in 4"x1/4" steel flat bar. How is this possible?
[00:11:30] <zeeshan> i hope iformulated the q correctly
[00:11:51] <furrywolf> just say 1800" in 1/4" steel. specifying the bar width probably doesn't help as much...
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[00:12:27] <furrywolf> although I have noticed that the start of the cut is the most likely time to chip teeth, so maybe saying that's 300 separate cuts does mean something.
[00:12:44] <furrywolf> also, that's without sharpening... a good saw shop can sharpen it before you start breaking teeth, several times.
[00:12:51] <zeeshan> the teeth look like
[00:12:54] <zeeshan> they got positive rake too
[00:12:59] <zeeshan> which is even more crazy
[00:13:03] <zeeshan> cause the tip should just snap off
[00:13:29] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: remember that if you're looking at a saw versus a milling cutter, you've got the teeth only in the work under 1% of the time
[00:13:43] <SpeedEvil> so that's in some ways like a milling cutter lasting .46m
[00:14:00] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i understand that
[00:14:04] <zeeshan> but at that sfm
[00:14:07] <zeeshan> the teeth should shatter
[00:14:21] <zeeshan> the cutting edge should be destroyed instantly
[00:14:31] <furrywolf> they don't, and it isn't. :)
[00:14:37] <SpeedEvil> The key is that they are going so fast that by the time they realise they should shatter, they're out of the material
[00:14:44] <furrywolf> lol
[00:14:56] <furrywolf> kinda like when cartoon characters run off cliffs, right? :P
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[00:16:16] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: the number of teeth means you can feed faster cause the chip load per tooth is less
[00:16:17] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: I've put mine through 1" bar, though... that's spending a lot of time in the material.
[00:16:26] <zeeshan> but it doesnt change the cutting speed
[00:16:49] <zeeshan> the faster the cutting speed
[00:16:56] <zeeshan> the more the heat generated
[00:16:59] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: no - but it does change the distance you can go
[00:17:01] <zeeshan> the faster the cutting edge degrades
[00:17:51] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: If you have 40 cutting teeth, then all else being equal, you can go 20* as far as if you've got two.
[00:17:52] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i'm not doubting that it can cut that distance if the teeth can survive
[00:17:54] <zeeshan> cause you're right
[00:17:56] <SpeedEvil> But - on the above point
[00:18:06] <zeeshan> more teeth means more overall volume of chips removed
[00:18:17] <SpeedEvil> 100us in the cut - does imply really interesting things heat-wise
[00:18:18] <zeeshan> but im more concerned about how the teeth survive the first couple of rounds
[00:18:37] <SpeedEvil> because you've only got 100us of heat-soak, then it can cool
[00:19:27] <_methods> i hope you guys solve all this soon because i'm not using my saw till i know how it works
[00:19:40] <furrywolf> lol
[00:19:54] <_methods> oh nm i'm done lol
[00:19:59] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: that makes sense
[00:20:08] <zeeshan> the time duration of heat transfer is very little
[00:20:25] <zeeshan> but now compare this with a big ass 12" face mill cutter
[00:20:37] <zeeshan> i think i see it
[00:20:43] <zeeshan> in the face mill you have a LOT of teeth in contact
[00:20:46] <zeeshan> where as in a cold saw
[00:20:56] <zeeshan> not as much teeth in contact
[00:21:01] <zeeshan> i bet if you tried to cut thick s tuff with it
[00:21:10] <zeeshan> you'd see the cutting edges dull out quickly
[00:21:21] <SpeedEvil> This is also related to my idea for a planar thicknesser using a sawblade as a cutter
[00:21:35] <furrywolf> I've cut thick stuff. works fine. :P
[00:21:53] <SpeedEvil> weld it to a mandrell, apply it to the surface of the top of the work, with a chipper blade on top to rip off the waste
[00:22:05] <SpeedEvil> So you can cut a 12" slab with a 12" blde
[00:22:30] <furrywolf> of course, I'm sure there's an obvious factor... 1/2" steel probably lasts half as long ad 1/4" steel, just in terms of removing the same amount of metal.
[00:22:31] <zeeshan> im a visual person :)
[00:22:33] <zeeshan> draw it out
[00:22:54] <zeeshan> well i asked him for an academic paper
[00:22:55] <zeeshan> will read
[00:22:55] <SpeedEvil> -|#
[00:23:01] <zeeshan> i might be able to do my final presentation on this
[00:23:04] <SpeedEvil> part-way through the cut
[00:23:08] <zeeshan> ratehr than the current article assigned to me
[00:23:16] <zeeshan> "turbomachinery metal cutting processes"
[00:23:17] <zeeshan> lol
[00:23:19] <zeeshan> borin
[00:23:48] <furrywolf> note that every time you cut box, channel, etc, there's a period where you're cutting through the entire height of the piece at once
[00:24:38] <furrywolf> the 9" blade will cut up to 3" box in one pass... and when you first start and stop, you're doing that all at once, unlike the middle where you're just cutting through the wall thickness twice.
[00:24:41] <zeeshan> i guarantee you he'll send me a paper
[00:24:49] <zeeshan> that shows test results in a lab scenario
[00:24:53] <zeeshan> that'll just answer all these qs
[00:24:54] <zeeshan> :P
[00:25:24] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yea
[00:25:55] <furrywolf> found another test for their old-style blades (since superseeded by the "nxt" ones), says 13 cuts in 12" by 3/8" stainless steel.
[00:26:07] <furrywolf> so 13 feet in 3/8 stainless
[00:26:31] <zeeshan> well i can do a crap load more with a bimetal blade
[00:26:33] <furrywolf> not nearly as long as in 1/4 mild steel, but stainless isn't mild steel. :)
[00:26:35] <zeeshan> but thats only like 100 sfm
[00:27:30] <_methods> not if you kick the workpiece on an angle lol
[00:27:51] <_methods> obviously with a solid profile that won't work
[00:28:04] <_methods> at some point you'll be cutting a full cut
[00:28:11] <zeeshan> angle i cut like this:
[00:28:16] <zeeshan> ......... /\
[00:28:26] <zeeshan> _|
[00:28:27] <_methods> that's how you're supposed to bu tit
[00:28:27] <zeeshan> not like that
[00:28:32] <zeeshan> so itll survive :P
[00:28:38] <_methods> yes 2nd is wrong
[00:28:52] <_methods> you increase blade in cut
[00:29:11] <zeeshan> something about mininum of 2 teeth in contact
[00:29:20] <furrywolf> a test for angle says 2" by 2" by 1/4" angle is 400 cuts. so 1600", but that's at a worse cutting angle and also cutting the slightly thicker rounded bit at the corner, so about identical to the 1800" for straight cuts.
[00:29:46] <_methods> these saws are not ideal
[00:29:54] <_methods> they are just for git'r'done stuff
[00:30:06] <_methods> a real cold saw is the way to go
[00:30:13] <_methods> or bandsaw
[00:31:08] <_methods> and what i did on my bandsaw is as wrong as 2 boys fuckin in the vatican
[00:31:15] * furrywolf wonders how long their carbide-tipped bandsaw blades last. :P
[00:31:22] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i wanna know too
[00:31:22] <_methods> if makita saw what i just did they'd void my warranty instantly i'm sure
[00:31:25] <zeeshan> cause if theyve got something diff
[00:31:31] <zeeshan> maybe bandsaw blades can last longer
[00:31:36] <zeeshan> and cut some hard stuff
[00:31:41] <_methods> s/bandsaw/chopsaw
[00:31:42] <zeeshan> lol methods
[00:31:43] <furrywolf> I thought the vatican was always one boy and one priest? so, yeah, two boys would be a bit odd.
[00:31:45] <zeeshan> time to work
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[00:33:16] <_methods> http://www.lenoxtools.com/pages/lenox-carbide-band-saw-blades.aspx
[00:33:20] <_methods> ask lennox lol
[00:34:52] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I was wondering about a related thing
[00:35:00] <SpeedEvil> On-line laser sharpening of bandsaw blades
[00:35:11] <SpeedEvil> While rotating
[00:35:24] <SpeedEvil> Alas, pulsed lasers aren't cheap
[00:35:57] <furrywolf> and teeth are shiny, and moving very quickly, and very thermally conductive, and need to stay cold.
[00:37:27] <SpeedEvil> They're not moving meaningfully by the standards of laser pulse I mean
[00:38:58] <furrywolf> they're moving meaningfully by the standards of being able to aim at a precise spot on them while spinning, vibrating, surrounded by flying chips... :P
[00:39:09] <SpeedEvil> Engineering details
[00:40:30] <furrywolf> bbl
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[04:21:44] <Computer_Barf> any of you guys milling wood? I have a g0704 but want to try making some coasters with compex patterns and trying to get and idea of what kinds of endmills I should get for that
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[06:12:49] <Cromaglious> Computer_Barf, you still there?
[06:13:01] <Computer_Barf> yes
[06:13:24] <Cromaglious> so you're thinking about inlaying into coasters?
[06:13:31] <Computer_Barf> yes
[06:14:21] <Cromaglious> well, you need to cut you base right side up, and the inlay pieces upside down
[06:15:05] <Cromaglious> then you can use 60 degree engraver to shape the piece to sharp points
[06:15:46] <Computer_Barf> are you talking about doing two layers?
[06:16:13] <Computer_Barf> like two pieces of wood and glueing them together? im not quite following what your syaing
[06:18:06] <Cromaglious> the base would be a piece engraved to accept inlay pieces and any inlay pieces would be cut to fit into the engraved places on the base. once glued in you can run a finish pass over everything to get the surface smooth or snad them down
[06:18:13] <Cromaglious> s/snad/sand/
[06:19:24] <Computer_Barf> damn i wish i was booted to my windows os so I could show you the rendering of the coaster
[06:19:50] <Cromaglious> to make a jigsaw type piece, you'd be limited to end mill long enough to go through the entire piece.
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[06:20:47] <Computer_Barf> will you be here for a little bit, I can get you an image of what I am trying to make
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[06:21:05] <Cromaglious> though you could probably do the same thing using engraver bits... with angled edges
[06:21:20] <Cromaglious> yeah.. or email to kf6pqz@gmail.com
[06:21:38] <Computer_Barf> k brb
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[06:21:50] <Cromaglious> can't you get to your windbloz partition from linux?
[06:22:55] <Cromaglious> Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
[06:22:56] <Cromaglious> /dev/sda2 109990436 93242740 16747696 85% /media/Drive D
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[06:28:41] <archivist> some inlay was rectangular
[06:30:21] <archivist> this one had some missing
http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2001/2001_04_24_Crane_clock/p4240004.jpg
[06:30:34] <Cromaglious> which using the engraver bits you can make sharp inside corners
[06:31:24] <Cromaglious> otherwise you end using a knife to cut them
[06:31:29] <archivist> square bottomed grooves not V
[06:32:16] <archivist> I wish I had before pics of that case
[06:33:09] <Cromaglious> yep square end cutters for everything except the pointed corners
[06:34:07] <archivist> it would have been hand carved probably
[06:34:07] <Cromaglious> coding the matching cuts would be a pain
[06:35:56] <archivist> the brass inlay was invisible when I first started on that clock, I couls see something in a reflection, not smooth, started cleaning.
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[06:42:27] <Cromaglious> I believe it. My Grandma had a clock that was almost black, she cleaned it up and it was a nice rosewood with brass, copper and silver inlays
[06:42:50] <Cromaglious> probably made in the 1870's
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[06:44:38] <Computer_Barf> ok im back
[06:44:47] <Cromaglious> yep
[06:44:58] <Cromaglious> yeppers, you is
[06:44:59] <Computer_Barf> uploading the pic
[06:45:07] <Cromaglious> ;)
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[06:46:29] <Computer_Barf> http://imgur.com/XIXVrL7
[06:46:45] <Computer_Barf> so idk if you can really call it an inlay
[06:46:59] <Computer_Barf> the graphic itself is raised
[06:47:35] <archivist> carving wood needs a higher speed than a mill designed for metal , also the detail there need a very small end mill
[06:48:16] <Computer_Barf> yes I figured some of the details would be very small endmill
[06:48:33] <archivist> as a coaster, you cannot clean it properly
[06:48:35] <Cromaglious> my 0.025" end mill is only 0.120" long
[06:49:07] <Cromaglious> my 0.008" endmill is only .060" long
[06:49:29] <Computer_Barf> archivist: you mean that it gets stuff in it?
[06:49:33] <archivist> yes
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[06:50:15] <Cromaglious> you cut it, the fill is with resin
[06:50:22] <Cromaglious> s/the/then/
[06:50:37] <Computer_Barf> yeah i thought about that
[06:50:57] <Computer_Barf> idk the idea of painting it black like that is to emulate a cast iron look
[06:51:01] <archivist> or make solid and print an image
[06:51:20] <Computer_Barf> its game of thrones so , trying to emulate something that could possibly exist at the fictional time
[06:51:52] <Cromaglious> you could tint the epoxy black, then sand it down to reveal the design
[06:53:10] <Cromaglious> they had lacquer
[06:53:36] <Computer_Barf> i could go into the file and make it so that the small detail lines are removed, then put them back in at a depth that a tiny endmill could do them
[06:54:14] <archivist> v carve maybe
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[06:54:38] <Cromaglious> hmm 45 degree engraver bits can have a pretty sharp end. 30 degree bits are rather blunt from what I've see
[06:55:24] <Cromaglious> use a 3/32 to cut most of it, then do the detail work with a 45 degree
[06:55:44] <archivist> you need both an endmill for the deep flat and v for the detail
[06:55:48] <Computer_Barf> what was it that you were trying to explain to be before with doing one side then another?
[06:56:17] <archivist> if you inlaid it
[06:56:46] <Computer_Barf> it seems possible i could cut out the dragon from a thin bit of wood , then glue it on disks
[06:56:53] <Cromaglious> for inlay, where you cut a base to receive inlay pieces. You vcarve the sharp pointy corners, then you cut the corresponding inlay pieces upside down to fit in them
[06:57:15] <Cromaglious> that dragon wouldn't really use the technic
[06:57:20] <Computer_Barf> i was wondering if the flat parts behind the dragon would be all .. idk , swerly
[06:58:13] <Cromaglious> depends on your tramming of your machine
[06:58:47] <Cromaglious> or you use a really small ball endmill with lots and lots and lots of close passes
[06:58:53] <Computer_Barf> I notice on alot of metal parts, milling out pockets often look like that
[07:00:13] <Computer_Barf> you think a g0704 will be too slow for wood milling?
[07:00:42] <Computer_Barf> i could try to find out the ipm
[07:01:04] <Cromaglious> probably... you could get a 24K spindle and make a mount to fit it on the quill
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[07:01:21] <Deejay__> moin
[07:01:47] <Computer_Barf> oh you mean the spindle speed
[07:02:00] <Cromaglious> da
[07:02:35] <Computer_Barf> i could make them in aluminum
[07:02:59] <Cromaglious> mytheral or titanium
[07:03:16] <Computer_Barf> you mean like an auxillary spindle?
[07:03:47] <Cromaglious> hmm G0704 is a mill drill or a knee mill?
[07:04:07] <Computer_Barf> mill drill
[07:04:46] <Cromaglious> aux spindle
[07:05:17] <Cromaglious> since the quill is part of the headstock which all moves up and down
[07:05:21] <Computer_Barf> well this isn't a fun realisation
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[07:08:08] <Cromaglious> heh colt a Z axis to the side of the headstock to raise and lower the aux spindle
[07:08:17] <Cromaglious> s/colt/bolt/
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[07:08:59] <Cromaglious> G0704 stock it only goes to 2250rpm
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[07:09:41] <Cromaglious> wow $6K for a servo cnc kit from grizzly
[07:10:49] <Computer_Barf> yeah no
[07:11:44] <Computer_Barf> I think grizzley is killing their market with that kind of stuff
[07:11:44] <Cromaglious> http://www.g0704.com/projects.html RPM mods
[07:12:02] <Computer_Barf> yeah I plan on upgrading the motor and convert to belt drive
[07:12:14] <Computer_Barf> I had planned on starting out with the coasters
[07:12:27] <Computer_Barf> perhaps aluminum coasters
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[07:16:12] <archivist> are the coasters for sale, if so do study on your price v manufacturing costs
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[07:17:11] <Computer_Barf> well I realize its not long before china starts making something your making
[07:17:32] <Computer_Barf> so I was just going to do some lots of things that fans would like
[07:17:53] <Computer_Barf> wood would basically be free for me
[07:18:06] <Cromaglious> make a pattern out of wood, paint, sand it, leave the side slightly tapered, make a high temp silcon mold, and cast in pewter
[07:18:45] <Computer_Barf> yeah I thought about stuff like tha t
[07:18:52] <Computer_Barf> pewter is tin right?
[07:19:49] <Computer_Barf> I made another model of the stark sigel , and it had less issues with the details
[07:20:04] <Computer_Barf> the targarian dragon has a bunch of fine lines
[07:20:28] <Cromaglious> 95-99% tin | alloyed with any number of metals: copper, antimony, bismuth, silver, and lead, don't use lead.
[07:20:46] <Computer_Barf> I could cast pewter, then copper plate it
[07:22:01] <Cromaglious> 85-99%
[07:23:10] <archivist> cast pewter would look and feel right for the market probably
[07:23:19] <Computer_Barf> I realise that one must think cheap cheap cheap for manufacturing but just for making some stuff im ok with things not being super profitable to start off. I realize that if I make these, probably not long after someone will show up with a cheaper version
[07:24:13] <Computer_Barf> I have been dissolving solder off of electroncis boards with hcl. The tin oxide preticipates out after it is eaten off the boards
[07:25:16] <Cromaglious> or cast zinc
[07:25:35] <Computer_Barf> the components can then be taken off alot easier, and you can sand them to make the copper shine. I planned on cutting some shapes from the epoxy / copper boards and encapsalating them
[07:25:54] <Computer_Barf> but making those boards does leave me with a good bit of tin oxide
[07:26:54] <Computer_Barf> i wonder if copper dissolves in molten tin like how steel dissolves in molten iron
[07:27:21] <archivist> steel and iron are the same metal
[07:27:43] <Computer_Barf> yes but steel needs higher temperatures to melt on its own
[07:29:01] <Cromaglious> tin only has affinity for about 1% copper. you can add antimony to make it harder. up to about 5%
[07:29:17] <Computer_Barf> if you have molten iron, you can throw bits of steel in it, and even though you might not have the temps high enough to melt steel, they will dissolve into the iiron
[07:30:41] <Cromaglious> nice thing about zinc is you can make a steel mold and inject zinc into it for really sharp features
[07:30:44] <Computer_Barf> kinda thinking the details on that dragon probably won't last very long on a silicon mould
[07:31:16] <Computer_Barf> don't really know where i can get a bunch of zinc
[07:31:29] <archivist> scrap yard
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[07:34:39] <Computer_Barf> this would bump up the price but i could make them out of brass
[07:35:53] <Computer_Barf> your thinking of how long it would take to make a nice looking one, running something two hours not making sense to sell for ten bucks
[07:36:07] <Computer_Barf> hence the casting
[07:37:23] <Computer_Barf> can you put some sort of mould release on a aluminum mould and pour epoxy in it?
[07:39:48] <Cromaglious> mold release. olive oil, pam, vaselean
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[07:40:55] <Computer_Barf> so using aluminum as an epoxy mould isn't insane?
[07:40:56] <Cromaglious> again, silicon mold
[07:41:06] <Computer_Barf> yes but.. details
[07:41:34] <Cromaglious> depends on shrinkage
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[07:43:17] <Cromaglious> an epoxy which cures with a very low shrinkage rate, you might be able to use a metal mold. that's what's so nice about the silicon molds. you almost don't care what the shrinkage rate is.
[07:44:36] <Cromaglious> injection molding machines cool the part just enough to let it solidify then kicks them out.
[07:45:07] <Cromaglious> doing it piece meal, you really want a flexible mold
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[07:48:51] <Cromaglious> I worked at a plant which made spa parts. The mold was hot enough to let the plastic completely fill the cavity, but kool enough to let the part solidify. They had process control with a water jacket to keep the temp within a degree or so. Once the machine was up and running kicking out good parts they'd run it 3 shifts for months until it was maintenance time
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[08:04:32] <Computer_Barf> ok so maybe I make one out of aluminum, then make silcon moulds, then pour pewter
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[08:33:12] <renesis> computer_barf: yeah thats what its like with the parts for consumer stuff ive worked on \
[08:33:48] <renesis> get the machine to temp, run parts until they get things dialed in, usually toss a batch or three of parts, and they they do the whole run
[08:33:51] <Computer_Barf> slightly disappointing you cant pour right into aluminum
[08:35:53] <Computer_Barf> http://www.rsalberts.com/images/productdevelopment/one.gif
[08:50:13] <renesis> why cant you just do aluminum?
[08:50:19] <renesis> you just cant maintain the temps?
[08:51:04] <Computer_Barf> what do you mean
[08:51:13] <Computer_Barf> I can melt aluminum
[08:51:33] <Computer_Barf> but thats outside of what we were discussing
[08:52:08] <Computer_Barf> http://imgur.com/XIXVrL7
[08:52:12] <Computer_Barf> this is the coaster
[08:52:29] <Computer_Barf> I was going to mill it on my g0704 from wood
[08:52:46] <Computer_Barf> but it was pointed out that the rpm i would need, the mill would be too slow
[08:53:01] <Computer_Barf> so i would need an auxillary spindle to route the wood
[08:53:26] <Computer_Barf> plus the time and all the detail on it would likely make the thing take too long to do runs of them
[08:53:35] <Computer_Barf> or cut into the profit that is
[08:53:59] <Computer_Barf> so an alternate proposal was milling it in metal
[08:54:14] <Computer_Barf> then using silicon mould , and cast pewter into that
[08:54:34] <Computer_Barf> so making one master and then a bunch of copies from silicon moulds
[08:54:54] <Computer_Barf> and pewter would match the "time period" of game of thrones
[08:55:16] <Computer_Barf> other options was milling it out of brass or bronze , but that is expensive
[08:55:49] <Computer_Barf> the wood ones I was going to paint with some sort of black paint to try to imitate the look of cast iron
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[08:57:22] <Computer_Barf> i was kind of surprised you couldn't mill a negative into a piece of aluminum then pour pewter into that
[08:57:42] <Computer_Barf> i mean you can do that with aluminum into iron
[08:57:50] <Computer_Barf> well, for ingots
[09:02:08] <Computer_Barf> http://www.denfordata.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1116
[09:02:20] <Computer_Barf> these people are casting pewter into mdf
[09:13:15] <XXCoder> whew finally home
[09:13:46] <XXCoder> pewder nice
[09:13:50] <XXCoder> is it cheap metal?
[09:14:10] <XXCoder> how strong is it? im pretty sure weaker than alum
[09:17:06] <XXCoder> http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/alloy_ac_pewter.htm
[09:17:08] <XXCoder> not too bad
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[09:50:09] <Computer_Barf> 69 bucks for 5 lbs on ebay
[09:50:23] <XXCoder> yeah? thats even cheaper
[09:50:29] <XXCoder> dunno if will plan though lol
[09:50:46] <XXCoder> wonder what metals can be cast in mdf
[09:50:54] <XXCoder> I know some weak metals can, like lead
[09:51:06] <XXCoder> mecury well just pour it in and put mnold in freezer LOL
[09:51:14] <Computer_Barf> lol
[09:51:26] <Computer_Barf> yes pewter can be poured into mdf
[09:51:38] <Computer_Barf> but it has a texture that displeases me
[09:51:57] <XXCoder> wonder what would happen if use regular wood
[09:52:03] <XXCoder> or lamimate
[09:52:15] <XXCoder> thopugh I has a idea, for small molds anyway
[09:52:24] <Computer_Barf> silicon was being advised earlier
[09:52:26] <XXCoder> buy those $1 sample floor wood
[09:52:32] <XXCoder> use router to cut it
[09:52:49] <Computer_Barf> i unfortuntnatly don't have a router
[09:52:53] <Computer_Barf> i have a cnc mill
[09:53:03] <Computer_Barf> i thought i was going to be able to do wood
[09:53:10] <Computer_Barf> so that was the bad news of the night
[09:53:28] <XXCoder> mill would be just fine for floor samples
[09:53:33] <XXCoder> its 3"x3"
[09:53:47] <XXCoder> lowes or something always has em, for $1
[09:53:55] <Computer_Barf> no not the size, the rpm of the spindle
[09:53:56] <XXCoder> even expensive floor types like hardwood
[09:54:01] <XXCoder> oh
[09:54:24] <Computer_Barf> installing an auxillary spindle was suggested
[09:54:48] <XXCoder> wonder if you could use some kinda planetary gearing to increase rpm in expense of power
[09:54:58] <XXCoder> mill can cut hard mill, it has plenty of power
[09:55:02] <XXCoder> *metal
[09:55:03] <Computer_Barf> but im trying to find a path to a product , less expenses
[09:55:37] <Computer_Barf> yeah I plan on doing a belt drive upgrade but
[09:55:40] <XXCoder> wonder how directly millable pewer is
[09:55:44] <Computer_Barf> still the rpms seemed quite high he was saying
[09:55:58] <Computer_Barf> 22k
[09:56:17] <Computer_Barf> idk if he bearings in the mill can take those speeds
[09:56:46] <XXCoder> dont have to if you make some kinda planetary gearing attachment
[09:57:04] <Computer_Barf> ahh i see what you mean
[09:57:07] <XXCoder> mill itself spins at max it can safely do, then use gearing to increase to wood/pewter
[09:57:09] <XXCoder> speeds
[09:57:11] <Computer_Barf> thats a pretty good idea
[09:57:24] <XXCoder> yeah its how drill steps down
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[09:58:03] <Computer_Barf> the belt drive upgrade , new motor puts it at around 6800 rpm
[09:58:15] <XXCoder> now that is interesting
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/general-metalwork-discussion/28144-milling-tin-pewter.html
[09:58:33] <XXCoder> one suggests use brass as master
[09:58:42] <XXCoder> and your mill can do brass just fine
[09:59:26] <Computer_Barf> http://imgur.com/XIXVrL7
[09:59:30] <Computer_Barf> this is the coaster
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[09:59:43] <XXCoder> http://igor.chudov.com/tmp/Pewter-Plates.jpg
[10:00:20] <Computer_Barf> did they mill those?
[10:00:34] <XXCoder> nah thought it was master molds but nah just result
[10:01:02] <XXCoder> soapstone apparently works
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[10:03:58] <Computer_Barf> soapstone to pour pewter into?
[10:04:02] <XXCoder> yeah
[10:04:12] <XXCoder> mking it into mold first though lol
[10:04:24] <XXCoder> old bronze mold for pewter metal
http://ecatalogue.art.yale.edu/imageServer/imgSrv?objectId=22925&size=ref
[10:05:38] <Computer_Barf> oh man
[10:06:18] <Computer_Barf> see i kind of suspected that you could take two pieces of aluminum and mill a mould into those bolt them together and pour in pewter
[10:06:32] <Computer_Barf> that picture there makes me suspect that it would work
[10:06:43] <XXCoder> yeah
[10:06:50] <XXCoder> brass is traditional metal for it
[10:07:05] <Computer_Barf> unless pewter sticks to aluminum, but it doesn't seem like it sticks to brass
[10:07:17] <XXCoder> but alum is fine I think. probably only reason it wasnt used back then is because it was more valuable than gold then.
[10:07:27] <Computer_Barf> lol hahaha
[10:07:31] <XXCoder> man time machine and chips from my work ;)
[10:07:49] <XXCoder> hell just order big chunks, clean with lathe then time machine
[10:08:20] <Computer_Barf> i wonder what the investment world would be like if time machines were commonplace
[10:08:37] <XXCoder> "everything is worth shit"
[10:08:41] <Computer_Barf> lets assume the whole "im fading away" situation doesn't exist
[10:09:02] <Computer_Barf> and just multiple timelines form when you change stuff
[10:09:26] <Computer_Barf> cause in back to the future 2 , biff invested in stuff and made a bunch of money
[10:09:32] <Computer_Barf> but what if everyone was biff
[10:09:46] <XXCoder> yeah like I said, everything would be worth crap
[10:09:52] <Computer_Barf> it wouldn't mean anything cause too many people would get rich
[10:10:01] <XXCoder> because at some point in future there would be space mining
[10:10:16] <XXCoder> $100 a ton of gold plus huge shipping lol
[10:10:23] <Computer_Barf> well
[10:10:35] <Computer_Barf> that's assuming humanity is competent in the long term
[10:10:52] <XXCoder> 100% chance there will be timeline that is a success
[10:10:54] <Computer_Barf> and the whole "technology will save us" philosophy is true
[10:11:08] <XXCoder> expeciailly when there is many time machines
[10:11:36] <XXCoder> its actually possible to get above 100% chance of success
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[10:11:55] <XXCoder> if there is 0.01% chance of success, and there is trillion different universe
[10:12:15] <Computer_Barf> dark enlightenment philosophy would point more at that instead of space mining, we would have ruins like old greek temples
[10:12:17] <XXCoder> its like rolling (1 trillion)d10000
[10:12:39] <XXCoder> and lots of em would roll 10000
[10:12:58] <Computer_Barf> maybe that future is only the future that particular time machine is caliberated to
[10:13:00] <Computer_Barf> lol
[10:13:02] <malcom2073> If time machines were comonplace, you're greatly overestimating people. It would be abused
[10:13:10] <malcom2073> In very bad ways
[10:13:21] <Computer_Barf> im assuming people will abuse it
[10:13:22] <XXCoder> we havent gotten to point where stuff is basically free due to superadvanced cncs
[10:13:32] <XXCoder> malcom2073: new timelines mean new time machine users
[10:13:38] <XXCoder> which means more timelines
[10:13:45] <XXCoder> its a postive feedback
[10:13:48] <malcom2073> True
[10:13:55] <Computer_Barf> yeah you got me there
[10:14:03] <malcom2073> So assuming the universe doesn't explode, peoles mistakes would stick them in their own timeline with copies of everyone
[10:14:16] <malcom2073> Don't like your universe? Change it!
[10:14:22] <XXCoder> basically
[10:14:35] <XXCoder> I bet advance after time machine would be crossreality machine
[10:14:41] <malcom2073> Could also make for a lot of very miserable people
[10:14:47] <XXCoder> rather than making new timelines it would cross from one to another
[10:14:59] <malcom2073> XXCoder: Go read the long earth
[10:15:18] <XXCoder> baxter nice
[10:15:36] <XXCoder> buyung it
[10:15:41] <malcom2073> Basically infinite alternate realities, but humans are only in one
[10:15:52] <malcom2073> suddenly humanity discovers easy way to pass betwee them
[10:16:12] <malcom2073> resources are worth nothing, land is worth nothing, it's interesting. Book doesn't go in-depth enough into the effects of it, but it's still a good read
[10:16:14] <XXCoder> infinite earths basically mean infinite resources
[10:16:19] <malcom2073> Yep
[10:16:28] <XXCoder> also weird bonus
[10:16:39] <XXCoder> if all has same history (dont tell me how book is like)
[10:16:43] <Computer_Barf> would have interesting implications for libertarianism
[10:16:47] <XXCoder> it would mean same resource is findable
[10:17:04] <malcom2073> XXCoder: The book references that with an amusing side-story
[10:17:04] <XXCoder> world largest diamond? its at coorditates (...,....,....)
[10:17:14] <XXCoder> no spoilers lol
[10:17:17] <malcom2073> Nope
[10:17:19] <malcom2073> It's a good read
[10:17:23] <XXCoder> cool
[10:17:34] <XXCoder> I now read very heavily
[10:17:37] <malcom2073> There are several others in the series, got not great reviews but I'ma read them anyway since I like the concept
[10:17:39] <Computer_Barf> how long do you think it would take before governments are laying claims to entire worlds
[10:17:50] <malcom2073> Computer_Barf: 0.001 seconds :P
[10:17:51] <XXCoder> Computer_Barf: more worlds
[10:18:01] <XXCoder> one world per person free
[10:18:25] <malcom2073> XXCoder: but what if the worlds were sequential, and it was harder to get to the further worlds?
[10:18:29] <XXCoder> hell 100 worlds per person free. infinite means billion worlds is 0% of toal
[10:18:32] <malcom2073> Suddenly worlds have value based on how "close" they are
[10:18:41] <XXCoder> malcom2073: rich would get nearby ones
[10:18:52] <malcom2073> Rich how? Who are they buying them from?
[10:18:56] <Computer_Barf> http://i.imgur.com/HSUp9IP.jpg
[10:19:02] <Computer_Barf> because fuck people, thats why.
[10:19:04] <malcom2073> The rich could afford mercenaries to protect it
[10:19:09] <malcom2073> lol
[10:19:17] <XXCoder> from people who got it. think phone numbers - random but people buy custpom numbers
[10:19:27] <XXCoder> like 123 456 0000 or whatever
[10:19:45] <malcom2073> Right, there's a central agency that manages phone numbers
[10:19:48] <malcom2073> who manages earths?
[10:20:00] <malcom2073> First come first served, then if the next guy has a bigger gun......
[10:20:05] <XXCoder> new goverment agenacy, but honestly?
[10:20:09] <XXCoder> peopel can always move on
[10:20:15] <XXCoder> expecially if tech is cheap
[10:20:17] <malcom2073> Yeah
[10:20:23] <malcom2073> Because the world is freaking massive
[10:20:35] <Computer_Barf> it would serve as a nice renewable reset button
[10:20:37] <malcom2073> You could move in and the "owner" could have no idea forever
[10:21:01] <Computer_Barf> dude honestly that scenario is an ancap wet dream
[10:21:19] <Computer_Barf> yes im going to be homesteading my own planet now.
[10:21:38] <Computer_Barf> Computer_Barfaria
[10:21:41] <XXCoder> heh would have to deal with wildlife
[10:22:05] <malcom2073> XXCoder: technology. Robots to build barriers, automatic sentry stun guns, etc :-D
[10:22:11] <malcom2073> Frontier tech would open up
[10:22:25] <Computer_Barf> with no government to stop you
[10:22:32] <Computer_Barf> things could get pretty interesting
[10:22:47] <Computer_Barf> i mean we have time machines
[10:22:59] <Computer_Barf> i think it would be fair to break out the laser turret
[10:23:46] <Computer_Barf> it would be cool if your time machine could encrypt the alt world location
[10:24:11] <Computer_Barf> you could encode the location to blockchains and sell predeveloped locations
[10:24:27] <Computer_Barf> using smart contracts
[10:24:37] <malcom2073> You know someidiot would go bring back dinosaurs
[10:24:56] <XXCoder> malcom2073: I remember one old and bit odd book on time travel
[10:25:01] <XXCoder> basically its a magic road
[10:25:07] <XXCoder> one mile is one year
[10:25:30] <XXCoder> well someone rich made a nuclear powered car that can go 1000 mph in order to get dinosour dna
[10:25:31] <malcom2073> Heh
[10:25:35] <malcom2073> Of course
[10:25:44] <XXCoder> yeah
[10:25:47] <malcom2073> That's a more reasonable concept
[10:25:51] <Computer_Barf> well outside the laser turret wall the dinosaurs are a pretty good deterrent.
[10:25:52] <malcom2073> make it more difficult the further you go
[10:25:54] <XXCoder> bet its tough because it isnt stright road
[10:26:11] <malcom2073> Ohhh, what if the cross-timeline thing, allows for timelines where the dinosaurs didn't go extinct?
[10:26:15] <XXCoder> 1000 mph is insane
[10:26:24] <XXCoder> wouldnt be same dinos
[10:26:36] <XXCoder> and dinsours isnt exinact here either
[10:26:36] <Computer_Barf> yeah 32 millions years of evolution
[10:26:40] <XXCoder> we just call em birds now
[10:26:58] <malcom2073> heh
[10:27:10] <malcom2073> Psh you know what I mean
[10:27:11] <Computer_Barf> you do have to wonder if dinosaurs would be an excellent chicken farming oppertunity.
[10:27:17] <malcom2073> Hmmmm yum
[10:27:22] <XXCoder> we well most of us, eat t-rex desecent sometimes
[10:27:32] <XXCoder> Computer_Barf: chickens, exactly lol
[10:27:36] <Computer_Barf> oh man
[10:27:43] <Computer_Barf> i just thought of a racist joke
[10:27:52] <Computer_Barf> i don't want to tell it cause then i seem racist
[10:28:01] <XXCoder> rather than actual? :P
[10:28:03] <XXCoder> heh
[10:28:24] <Computer_Barf> i sincerly believe you can have a pure heart and still think of racist jokes.
[10:28:25] <XXCoder> yeah I don't share em either. no interest in futhering racist stuff
[10:28:49] <malcom2073> Oh man, that would totally bring back slavery without gonvermental control of all the timelines/worlds
[10:28:52] <Computer_Barf> but thats not politically correct. It's just a themed joke. I don't even care if its against my race.
[10:29:26] <XXCoder> anyway Computer_Barf dunno if dino-farming would be effecient
[10:29:29] <Computer_Barf> malcom2073: I was more thinking along the giant chicken marketing standpoint
[10:29:36] <XXCoder> lots food for given pound of meat
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[10:29:58] <XXCoder> eggs though
[10:30:06] <XXCoder> big eggs.
[10:30:09] <Computer_Barf> malcom2073: you might want to note that a number of the very early abolitionists were anarchists.
[10:30:29] <malcom2073> True, but infinite worlds, infinite people, infinite stupid
[10:30:48] <XXCoder> best scenero: infinite worlds one human filled
[10:30:54] <malcom2073> There's a move, it's a "documentary", based in a world where the south won the war, and america continued slavery into the 2000's
[10:31:08] <XXCoder> worse? this is only earth with decent (compared to others) intellegent species
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[10:31:23] <Computer_Barf> go back in time in your time machine
[10:31:27] <Computer_Barf> and find some slave masters
[10:31:42] <Computer_Barf> and tell them that their business is doomed
[10:31:53] <Computer_Barf> because one day soon there will be giant machines
[10:32:05] <XXCoder> most time machines get this wrong - time machine does not mean just same people but different histry
[10:32:16] <XXCoder> we would get completely different people within generation or 2
[10:32:18] <Computer_Barf> made of iron that will troll around the fields picking the cotton and sort it in a mechanized fashion
[10:32:18] <XXCoder> why?:
[10:32:23] <XXCoder> different times of sex
[10:32:32] <Computer_Barf> consuming oil we pump from the ground
[10:32:34] <XXCoder> even one second later may make difference on which sperm wins
[10:32:58] <Computer_Barf> they'll all think your nuts
[10:33:34] <XXCoder> Computer_Barf: what if you told people say 14 years ago that apple will be biggest company?
[10:33:43] <XXCoder> people would think "your" nuts.
[10:33:52] <Computer_Barf> hey hey now
[10:33:58] <Computer_Barf> don't question my verbility
[10:34:17] <Computer_Barf> maybe in an alternate time line I can say your however yous want to.
[10:34:43] <malcom2073> What if you went back in time 50 years, told someone that you had a device in your pocket, that could access the worlds knowlege within seconds, communicate around the world easily and quickly, and you use it to look up pictures of kittens with funny captions
[10:34:55] <XXCoder> malcom2073: theres comic on tjhat
[10:35:16] <malcom2073> yeah that's where I got it
[10:35:37] <XXCoder> but yeah. I got this really shitty android tablet. its tons times more calculation power than entire earth in 50s
[10:35:58] <XXCoder> I dont even use it. its shitty
[10:37:20] <malcom2073> The faster processers get, the more inefficient programmers get
[10:37:24] <malcom2073> I think the programmers are winning the race
[10:38:37] <Computer_Barf> what kind of rpms is minim for routing wood?
[10:38:49] <XXCoder> 8k to 32k
[10:39:01] <XXCoder> thats range of my edge trimmer I plan to use on cnc router
[10:40:00] <Computer_Barf> ok so if I was to gear a spindle on a mill to achieve that, i wonder how i might do that.
[10:40:22] <XXCoder> 1:4 ratio gearing
[10:40:25] <Computer_Barf> i mean i assume I would need some fancy bearings on the faster gears
[10:40:30] <XXCoder> 8k would becomke 32k
[10:41:01] <Computer_Barf> 6800 rpm with the belt drive upgrade on the g0704
[10:41:57] <Computer_Barf> 27,200
[10:42:01] <XXCoder> http://www.bigkaiser.com/products/spindle-speeders/high-spindle.html
[10:42:53] <Computer_Barf> oh this already exists prebuilt hummm
[10:43:12] <XXCoder> someojne suggest google for ""high speed head"."
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[10:50:53] <SpeedEvil> http://www.millerhi-speedheads.com/
[10:51:59] <Computer_Barf> boooo
[10:54:29] <XXCoder> earl delayed again. what a flipping surpise. glad I didnt preorder lol
[11:16:09] <XXCoder> anyway night
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[12:51:48] <magic_ninja> hey guys, I was sent there with a VFD question i've had, its not strictly on topic though
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[13:05:28] <CaptHindsight> magic_ninja: just ask, Saturday includes topics such as 3d printed potato mashers and what types of wood make better machine frames
[13:07:31] <magic_ninja> Well basically, I'm running a 10hp commander SK on a cooling unit to drive 4 fan motors, but this particular circuit keeps giving a hardware fault 26. We have swapped with another VFD and gotten the same fault on the swapped in VFD, and the one that was origionally faulting ran fine on the other circuit
[13:07:41] <magic_ninja> I'm trying to dig more into this issue and find the cause
[13:10:20] <archivist> what is error 26 in the VFD manual
[13:12:36] <magic_ninja> an error in IGBT or the inrush circuit of the power supply board
[13:13:11] <magic_ninja> We know it is something to do with our circuit on the VFD rather than the VFD itself.
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[13:35:55] <Tom_itx> add more caps to the supply?
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[14:10:33] * JT-Shop goes to walk the dog before trying to cut the T slot
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[14:11:04] <Tecan> stressful ?
[14:11:25] <Tecan> whatcha making JT ?
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[14:31:08] <JT-Shop> http://ibin.co/1xyKKr8nTBAf
[14:31:53] <JT-Shop> http://ibin.co/1xyKYas6li5S
[14:35:34] <_methods> where's the tslot
[14:35:45] <_methods> hehe
[14:36:05] <JT-Shop> I still need to remove the T
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[14:41:25] <jdh> then you would be J-Shop
[14:42:04] <furrywolf> is that where j-lube is made?
[14:49:11] <JT-Shop> hmm, the path seems correct, now to see what it sounds like with a part in the vise
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[14:51:26] <archivist> I am sure I was not supposed to hear it from here
[14:52:01] <_methods> hehe
[14:53:26] <furrywolf> lol
[14:55:26] <archivist> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2PCS-Danger-Decals-for-your-Micrometer-or-Caliper-for-Mitutoyo-Starrett-Case-/110940057828
[14:55:52] <tiwake> lol
[14:56:55] <furrywolf> lol
[14:57:14] <JT-Shop> sounds good cutting... it's going to take a while to run
[14:57:24] <jdh> single pass?
[14:58:17] <SpeedEvil> What is vital is calibration stickers for when you have measured the size.
[14:58:19] <SpeedEvil> http://store-xkcd-com.myshopify.com/products/actual-size-stickers
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[15:00:11] <furrywolf> ... huh?
[15:02:52] <JT-Shop> jdh, many passes with two cutters
[15:05:22] <jdh> when you cut dovetails in steel, do you do multiple passes? or rough in the dovetail?
[15:06:56] <SpeedEvil> DEpends on the tollerance and the capabilities of your machine
[15:07:15] <SpeedEvil> oh - never mind - misread
[15:09:01] <_methods> i bought this metric tap and die set from shars...........
[15:09:20] <_methods> just so i would have a bunch of taps and dies that i was missing that i could replace with good stuff later
[15:09:39] <_methods> the taps in there might tap plastic lol
[15:09:47] <_methods> if you're careful
[15:11:29] <furrywolf> welcome to china goods.
[15:12:07] <jdh> might tap chinese 'steel'
[15:13:25] <CaptHindsight> _methods: I did the same. I use them for backup or carefully with aluminum
[15:14:04] <_methods> yeah
[15:14:18] <_methods> probably will work alright on alum
[15:14:26] <_methods> i almost snapped it 2 threads into some steel
[15:14:32] <CaptHindsight> http://www.menards.com/main/tools-hardware/power-tool-accessories/threading-tools/60-piece-tap-die-set/p-1465913.htm another one to avoid
[15:14:55] <CaptHindsight> good for aluminum, cheese and some hardwoods
[15:15:02] <JT-Shop> other than some silly Z rapids the code seems fine
[15:15:12] <_methods> haha cheese
[15:16:39] <furrywolf> lol
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[15:18:23] <jdh> I got a HF metric tap/die set so I would have something. The few I have used have worked in 6061 and cleaning up crappy threads in steel
[15:18:50] <jdh> the handles are complete junk though
[15:20:38] <furrywolf> a large portion of what HF sells is complete junk.
[15:23:16] <furrywolf> unfortunately, I haven't come across any metric taps at yard sales.
[15:23:18] <jdh> I would say most. Still useful at times
[15:29:45] <JT-Shop> other than a couple of dimension tweaks I'm making parts :)
[15:30:00] <jdh> cool.
[15:30:10] <jdh> one at a time?
[15:31:03] <_methods> man i bought this 2hp 5gal air compressor from HF like 15 years ago and it won't freakin die
[15:31:23] <_methods> i keep prayin it will die so i can go buy a new good compressor
[15:31:30] <_methods> but nope
[15:31:36] <_methods> it just keeps on pushin air
[15:38:18] <JT-Shop> jdh, ?
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[15:42:29] <Jymmm> NATURE BY NUMBERS
https://vimeo.com/9953368
[15:49:42] <JT-Shop> 1 T-slot down 15 to go
[15:53:22] <_methods> righ ton
[15:54:07] <_methods> alright time to go get some wings
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[15:59:58] <pcw_home> You can also get the Fibbonaci series by iteratively solving the equation for the golden mean (a continued fraction)
[16:00:00] <pcw_home>
[16:02:25] <pcw_home> x=1+1/x
[16:02:26] <pcw_home> substituting 1:
[16:02:28] <pcw_home> 2/1=1+1/1
[16:02:29] <pcw_home> and so on
[16:02:31] <pcw_home> 3/2=1+1/2
[16:02:32] <pcw_home> 5/3=1+2/3
[16:05:04] <JT-Shop> I don't know if turning on the Samson lathe will trip out the VMC or not...
[16:06:31] * JT-Shop waits for this T-slot to finish before trying
[16:09:06] <pcw_home> sounds prudent
[16:11:13] <CaptHindsight> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=319-5431&PMPXNO=19508792&PARTPG=INLMK3 Enco carries Irwin, isn't that the hand tool brand at Lowes?
[16:12:11] <Rab> Irwin is/was a respectable name brand, but I think most of their stuff is manufactured overseas.
[16:12:32] <CaptHindsight> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INSRAR2&PMAKA=310-1349&PMPXNO=953061 also Interstate
[16:13:54] <Rab> I won't usually buy Irwin because of what they did to Vise Grip. There was basically an entire small town in the US doing the manufacturing, multiple generations of workers. Irwin bought it out, shut down the plant, and sent everything overseas.
[16:14:14] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/t-handle-tap-ratchet-wrench-97633.html I haven't broken this or worn it out. Well worth the $20
[16:15:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.harborfreight.com/45-pc-titanium-nitride-coated-alloy-steel-metric-tap-die-set-61410.html not bad if you have a 50% off coupon as backup
[16:15:59] <Rab> I don't care about Buy USA jingoism, but that's just cold. And if I'm going to buy a chinese vice-grip, I absolutely don't need to pay Irwin a premium for the brand.
[16:17:32] <Rab> http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe40s/machines_12.html
[16:18:53] <CaptHindsight> but you're only supposed to go by the Brand name and not actually analyze the product
[16:21:06] <Rab> I always feel like the Harbor Fright TiN coating is basically yellow clear coat, like whatever dip they use for cheap "gold" jewelry.
[16:23:32] <Rab> http://www.nbcnews.com/id/26531610/ns/business-local_business/t/workers-sorry-vise-grip-plant-moving-china/
[16:23:34] <archivist> Irwin also did that to Record in the UK
[16:23:44] <CaptHindsight> I've used their bargain TiN coated drill bits and they do last a bit longer than their non coated
[16:24:53] <CaptHindsight> I'm working with some co's now that are reshoring to the USA after being in China for several years
[16:25:29] <CaptHindsight> the automation is the same and shipping is lower cost and faster
[16:25:39] <archivist> companies have to make the mistake to learn from it
[16:25:57] <CaptHindsight> if everything is automated it's lower cost to move back
[16:26:30] <CaptHindsight> I haven't heard from any that it was a mistake to leave
[16:26:53] <CaptHindsight> quality is a long forgotten concept
[16:27:01] <CaptHindsight> they just look at the bottom line
[16:27:46] <Rab> I think I approve of robot mechanic being the new blue collar trade?
[16:29:48] <furrywolf> Rab: you think you'll get a choice? you'll get tossed in the digester if you refuse to obey your robotic overlords.
[16:31:15] <Rab> Pets or meat!
[16:31:55] <pcw_home> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tScAyNaRdQ
[16:32:12] <furrywolf> the worst drillbits I've ever used were a 10-pack of 1/8 yellow-clearcoated bits from HF.
[16:32:26] <CaptHindsight> blood filled meat sacks
[16:32:52] <furrywolf> I was drilling through roofing. they couldn't. a layer of tarpaper would ruin them. if you pressed harder, they'd simply BEND 90 DEGREES right at the end of the chuck and spin around.
[16:34:02] <furrywolf> I don't think they were tool steel. I'm not even entirely convinced they were steel...
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[16:37:34] <furrywolf> Rab: at least Irwin didn't do what Leatherman did... move the factory to mexico, but have them keep stamping USA into the forgings anyway.
[16:37:49] <furrywolf> California had to sue Leatherman to make them stop that.
[16:38:08] <Rab> furrywolf, I inspected such multipacks in the store and saw the points were actually ground significantly off-center.
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[16:39:03] <Rab> Hey man, I'm sure it's assembled into the packaging from multiple-sourced parts in the USA.
[16:39:03] <furrywolf> Leatherman also employed quite a few workers, but to save costs, shut down the factory and opened a new one in mexico. that still stamped USA into everything. turns out the government doesn't like when you do that...
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[16:41:00] <furrywolf> also, on a related note, the mexican leatherman tools are garbage. I'm much happier with my SOG. heh.
[16:41:22] <furrywolf> the quality took a nosedive when the moved to mexico... fit and finish was crap, tools were rough and stuck, etc.
[16:43:58] <CaptHindsight> how many China made visegrips do you have that no longer close all the way, are now curved or don't unlock with a whack from a hammer?
[16:44:15] <furrywolf> I've been toying in my mine occasionally with the idea of an overly-complicated locking multitool... one with locking action that is not based on the simple over-center lever design of visegrips and the existing locking multitools.
[16:44:26] <furrywolf> CaptHindsight: none. I threw every fucking one of them out.
[16:44:36] <furrywolf> I no longer own ANY chinese visegrips.
[16:45:31] <furrywolf> because every single one of them, the first time I used it, bent, stuck, or otherwise became useless. one twisted about 40 degrees when I squeezed the handles, so the jaws became parallel instead of closing towards each other!
[16:46:53] <furrywolf> hrmm, methinks someone at leatherman has been editing wikipedia. all mention of their move to mexico, and resultant lawsuit for faking country-of-origin, have been removed from the article.
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[16:48:10] <furrywolf> leatherman's own website still has articles on it, however. lol
[16:50:12] <furrywolf> "Leatherman offered for sale and sold 22 tool products in California during the class period and represented on the tool products, on packaging, and in advertising that the tools were made in the United States. Significant working parts of the tools were investment cast,3 fineblanked,4 formed, hardened, cut, forged, polished or machined in various foreign countries. The plier jaws that were investment cast in Mexico had the the letters
[16:52:04] <humble_sea_bass> i kind of wish benchmade would take a crack at a multitool
[16:52:20] <humble_sea_bass> oh wait they did
[16:52:42] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I'm not sure it was ever in there
[16:52:46] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Leatherman&diff=646867740&oldid=460900258
[16:52:49] <SpeedEvil> comparing 2011 and now
[16:53:04] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: it was in there at one point, unless I'm more senile than I thought.
[16:53:26] <furrywolf> it was big news... leatherman sued for faking the country-of-origin labeling, being sued by the government, etc.
[16:54:25] <furrywolf> many people, such as myself, had noticed the latest batches of leatherman tools were fucking utter shit, obviously not from the same people and tooling, yet still had USA forged into them...
[16:55:09] <furrywolf> the lawsuit got them to stop stamping USA on them, and to label them "Assembled in USA from foreign components" or some crap like that, instead of "Made in USA!!!!!11".
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[16:56:11] <SpeedEvil> I'm not saying it wasn't big news.
[16:56:22] <CaptHindsight> humble_sea_bass: back from far off lands?
[16:56:26] <SpeedEvil> It's just that I looked around the time of the lawsuit in the revision history and saw nothing
[16:56:32] <SpeedEvil> So nobody bothered adding it
[16:56:47] <furrywolf> "(1) to stop representing to California residents in their respective stores, or on their websites, or in any other manner, that those tools are "Made in U.S.A.," and (2) to return to Leatherman, at Leatherman's expense, all 22 tools at issue and any packaging and advertising relating to those tools representing that the tools are "Made in U.S.A""
[16:57:04] <humble_sea_bass> you may have been reading the AR15 forums
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[16:57:13] <humble_sea_bass> lots of people with their heads up their ass
[16:57:15] <humble_sea_bass> http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/794430_Leatherman_tools_made_in_China_.html
[16:57:28] <furrywolf> 2011? this was 2002 or something.
[16:57:45] <humble_sea_bass> although someone mentions the lawsuit there
[16:58:14] <SpeedEvil> yes - I looked back to
http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/stories/2006/01/23/story7.html?page=all
[16:59:49] <furrywolf> I gave away my mexican leathermen... I'd been using leatherman tools for many years, but the new ones I got were too crap to use. I actually bought them brand new, retail, in a store and all. rather pissed me off.
[17:00:03] <SpeedEvil> The page was only created in 2004
[17:00:14] <furrywolf> since then I've become a SOG convert. had a gerber for a while, they're nice, but SOG is nicer. :)
[17:00:30] <SpeedEvil> Doing a brief scan - there have been no large removals of text on the page from that period till 2005
[17:00:43] <SpeedEvil> Or since then
[17:00:49] * furrywolf could just be senile
[17:01:34] <humble_sea_bass> the SOGs have that weird cap-flap which never jives with me
[17:02:08] <furrywolf> cap-flap?
[17:02:17] <furrywolf> http://www.sogknives.com/powerlock-v-cutter-satin.html the one I have now... I love it.
[17:02:55] <humble_sea_bass> the thing that's horizontal in that picture
[17:03:03] <furrywolf> SOG also actually honors their warranty, unlike leatherman. I rounded my phillips bit, sent them an email, and got a new one in the mail, no questions asked.
[17:03:12] <humble_sea_bass> aestherically speaking, it is gross looking
[17:03:35] <furrywolf> the handle covers? they just snap off. I keep mine off. just an extra step when you're getting a tool out, although they do make it more comfortable when you're really mushing something with the pliers.
[17:03:43] <humble_sea_bass> leatherman is just couinting on you losing your tool
[17:04:08] <humble_sea_bass> wait, you can just yank em off?
[17:04:19] <humble_sea_bass> I'll give them a try
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[17:04:34] <furrywolf> yes. they're just attached by two dimples on the wings popped into two holes in the handles. they snap on and off easily.
[17:05:07] <humble_sea_bass> is the power assist as good as they claim
[17:05:15] <furrywolf> if you're mostly using the pliers, they let you use more force without mushing your hands on the tools. if you mostly use the other tools, they're an extra step to getting them out. so you can pick on or off. :P
[17:05:15] <furrywolf> yes
[17:06:08] <humble_sea_bass> i have a skeletool like i said, which is good and fine when you find yourself doing an unexpected thing, but they may as well be chopsticks
[17:07:05] <furrywolf> I can twist a pair of chinese visegrips until the jaws are parallel to each other and don't make contact, but I haven't broken my SOG. :P
[17:07:49] <furrywolf> http://www.sogknives.com/powerlock-handle-cover.html that shows how the handle covers attach
[17:09:30] <CaptHindsight> work great as sacrificial welding clamps or nearly molten metal serving tongs
[17:09:50] <furrywolf> lol
[17:10:12] <CaptHindsight> cheap tools do come in handy
[17:11:35] <furrywolf> http://www.sogknives.com/wire-strippers-629.html I've been thinking of getting those for mine, but I don't want to remove any of my tools. heh.
[17:14:13] <humble_sea_bass> that actually looks handy as opposed to cowboying it with the knife
[17:14:24] <furrywolf> unlike leatherman, the sog tools are designed to be easily replacable...
[17:15:02] <furrywolf> hex bolts instead of rivets and weird knurled things you can't grab.
[17:16:47] <furrywolf> this also means you can customize it with the set of tools you want to use... I don't know if they still do, but they used to even have a build-your-own option, where you listed which tools you wanted on each handle, and they'd ship it to you exactly how you wanted.
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[17:21:08] <furrywolf> the gerber was nice because it had indexable carbide cutters... but the tool wasn't too great otherwise.
[17:21:19] <furrywolf> the sliding pliers design was weird, and resulted in little room for other tools.
[17:21:50] <furrywolf> and it didn't have a saw. wtf? what kind of multitool doesn't include at least some attempt at a wood saw?
[17:22:20] <humble_sea_bass> wait, you don't carry a japanese saw in your pocket?
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[17:22:51] <syyl> "attemt at a wood saw"
[17:22:55] <syyl> for some strange reason
[17:23:09] <syyl> all those saws on the swiss army knifes, swisstools and leathermans are awesome
[17:23:15] <syyl> they cut increcibe fast :D
[17:23:32] <syyl> 2x4 in 30seconds? sure!
[17:24:18] <furrywolf> the one on my SOG is excellent. the ones on my original leathermen were excellent. the ones on the mexican leathermen I gave away... might have been able to cut balsa, if you were desparate.
[17:24:35] <furrywolf> the gerber... no saw at all. wtf?
[17:24:49] <syyl> haha
[17:24:55] <syyl> the gerber tools are all like
[17:25:03] <syyl> "nice idea...but why didnt you finish it?"
[17:25:18] <syyl> they just stoped in the design process
[17:25:21] <syyl> and started to make it
[17:25:28] <furrywolf> I did like the indexable carbide inserts. that's a feature sog should copy.
[17:25:56] <syyl> on the other hand
[17:26:01] <syyl> if i take my leatherman wave
[17:26:05] <syyl> or my swisstool
[17:26:12] <syyl> both excellent design
[17:26:16] <furrywolf> although so far I haven't mushed the cutters on my sog, and I've cut hardened cable with them.
[17:28:48] <furrywolf> one of them, I can't remember which now, advertised a holder for t-shank jigsaw blades, which sounded really clever...
[17:29:07] <furrywolf> you can pick which type of saw to equip it with
[17:32:16] <furrywolf> I really should finish my design for a locking multitool that doesn't suck... it involves too many pieces and roller bearings, however.
[17:32:56] <furrywolf> it might be on the wrong side of the features-simplicity tradeoff.
[17:34:06] <furrywolf> it involves a LOT of moving bits. heh.
[17:41:39] * JT-Shop wishes he could run the Samson at the same time as the VMC
[17:43:34] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: If it is actually on topic, it's probably overkill.
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[17:58:00] <tjtr33> could someone please open this scope dump?
https://www.dropbox.com/s/xbmd0cij2ml9knn/edmGapSignal-vs-XpositionOverTime.jpg?dl=0
[17:58:32] <tjtr33> opens fine for me but it was reported it was an onslaught of adverts by another
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[17:59:56] <SpeedEvil> I getno ads. But I do have adblock on
[18:00:31] <tjtr33> thx, was visible, legible?
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[18:05:15] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: ?
[18:05:38] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: if it runs linuxcnc
[18:05:55] <SpeedEvil> tjtr33: yes
[18:05:59] <tjtr33> thx
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[18:25:19] <furrywolf> for electrolysis rust removal, ultrasonic cleaning works amazingly well at removing the black residue.
[18:25:28] <furrywolf> instantly strips the part down to bare silver metal
[18:25:37] <furrywolf> with no effort on your part!
[18:28:36] <furrywolf> as soon as you dip the part, the black just falls off it.
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[18:32:54] <zeeshan> howdy
[18:33:05] <zeeshan> i made some machining feet for the mikron
[18:33:08] <zeeshan> finally levelled it
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[18:58:44] <t12> back to re-figuring out this mitsu thing
[18:58:57] <t12> after forgetting about it for years
[18:59:00] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/njgmkbrv3ez4oje/AACa7rt9Ro5lhItRDt7lyEzla
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[21:20:08] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wadkin-UX-CNC-Router-/171748707577?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item27fd054cf9
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[21:44:52] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, how'd the slot cutting work out?
[21:45:31] <JT-Shop> slow but good, I'm cutting some now... just got back from a ride on the Blue Wing
[21:45:55] <JT-Shop> takes 24 minutes, but I'm not rushing it without using soft jaws
[21:45:57] <Tom_itx> feeds seem ok?
[21:46:02] <Tom_itx> yeah
[21:46:16] <Tom_itx> i'm sure you could have gone faster with a firmer grip
[21:46:22] <_methods> i'm always a big pansy when i do slitting and tslots
[21:46:39] <_methods> better than busting a cutter
[21:46:42] <_methods> or scrappin a part
[21:46:44] <Tom_itx> no need if you follow the SFM and IPR
[21:47:05] <Tom_itx> the math still works
[21:48:10] <JT-Shop> like Mari Tool says "speeds and feeds depends on the rigidity of your machine and work holding"
[21:48:19] <Tom_itx> yeah
[21:48:40] <Tom_itx> i should send you one of these slide rules i got at a trade show years ago
[21:48:57] <Tom_itx> one has all the SFM IPT etc and another figures HP
[21:49:26] <Tom_itx> i don't use em much since i have the cad cam
[21:50:02] <Tom_itx> i'm sure they're pretty general figures
[21:50:04] <JT-Shop> I just use my spreadsheet usually
[21:52:16] <Tom_itx> once you've used a cutter you have a reference to work from
[21:54:57] * zeeshan is having cad fun
[21:54:57] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/home?preview=Rotor.PDF
[21:55:04] <zeeshan> getting that printed on a t-shirt
[21:55:04] <zeeshan> :D
[21:56:49] <Tom_itx> what's it for?
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[21:58:21] <SpeedEvil> 'I edit wikipedia, make presentations, then jump off bridges'
[21:58:38] <SpeedEvil> Oh - no - that's the dropbox login logo never-mind
[22:00:33] <furrywolf> lol
[22:01:19] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: to wear at the race track
[22:01:23] <zeeshan> to annoy the rotary engine owners
[22:01:44] * Tom_itx doesn't get the connection
[22:01:54] <zeeshan> ??
[22:02:08] <Tom_itx> all i got was a login page
[22:02:14] <zeeshan> o
[22:02:35] <zeeshan> https://www.dropbox.com/s/epqi88iv9myzbqd/Rotor.PDF?dl=0
[22:03:14] <furrywolf> nope
[22:03:23] <furrywolf> why don't you put it on an actual webhost, rather than a spam site?
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[22:03:41] <zeeshan> cause geocities doesnt exhist anymore
[22:03:47] <Tom_itx> New to Dropbox? Sign up for free to share documents and photos
[22:03:55] <Tom_itx> mmm i'm thinkin .... naw
[22:04:10] <furrywolf> yes, that's what I think as well.
[22:04:22] <Tom_itx> oh btw, wankels only have 2 rotors
[22:04:49] <Tom_itx> and even with the racing seals they're still crap
[22:05:21] <furrywolf> eh? mazda made lots of 3-rotor engines
[22:05:39] <zeeshan> theres also 4 rotors
[22:06:43] <JT-Shop> I wonder if I put a soft start on the Samson spindle motor then I could run it while the VMC is running
[22:07:22] <furrywolf> ... what about another breaker?
[22:07:47] <JT-Shop> all my 3-phase comes from my 20hp RPC
[22:08:15] <furrywolf> does the vmc use motors running directly off the 3-phase, or does it have VFDs?
[22:08:39] <JT-Shop> when I kick in the 7.5hp spindle it draws the voltage down a few and the VMC doesn't like that
[22:08:56] <furrywolf> the normal rule with 3-phase rotary converters is the more you have running, the more you can start.
[22:08:57] <JT-Shop> the VMC is all servos
[22:09:13] <furrywolf> so convert the vmc to single phase and get it off your converter? :)
[22:09:20] <JT-Shop> the Siemens drive in the VMC is NOT normal lol
[22:09:34] <furrywolf> lol
[22:09:52] <furrywolf> normal in this case refers only to 3-phase induction motors. heh.
[22:09:57] <JT-Shop> the spindle is a 7.5HP servo motor and you can't run that kind with a VFD
[22:10:06] <JT-Shop> done checked
[22:10:08] <zeeshan> thats sweet
[22:10:14] <zeeshan> dc servo
[22:10:15] <zeeshan> or ac
[22:10:18] <furrywolf> when you have motors already running off your rotary converter, they'll give a boost to start even more motors... but that doesn't work for vfds/etc.
[22:10:55] <JT-Shop> the Siemens drive is hyper sensitive to voltage so you can't start another 3-phase motor when it is on
[22:11:23] <zeeshan> does it go in fault
[22:11:24] <JT-Shop> the drive in my CHNC is normal and doesn't care what you feed it it just runs
[22:11:24] <zeeshan> if you do?
[22:11:28] <JT-Shop> yea
[22:11:37] <zeeshan> undervoltage warning prolly
[22:11:37] <furrywolf> spin your other piece of equipment up to speed with a cordless drill, then flip the power switch, and hope it syncs without blowing anything. :)
[22:11:39] <zeeshan> interesting
[22:11:44] <zeeshan> rofl furry
[22:12:00] <JT-Shop> the only way to run the VMC was to way oversize the RPC and get RPC motor
[22:12:20] <JT-Shop> I'll hold your beer while you try
[22:13:01] <furrywolf> well, it might work perfectly, or it might be a double-line-voltage worse-than-dead-short... all depending on the phase difference when you hit the power switch.
[22:13:09] <furrywolf> you could get a fancy meter that shows you when the phases line up...
[22:13:50] <furrywolf> in reality, for something that small, it'll synchronize to the new phase pretty quickly... but it might annoy your drive.
[22:14:14] <furrywolf> can't you just pause whatever you're running, start the other machine, continue?
[22:14:55] <JT-Shop> trips out the drive on the VMC even if your not machining
[22:15:10] <furrywolf> but as long as it's not cutting, restart it? heh
[22:16:07] <JT-Shop> I have to reboot the control usually or it gets funky
[22:16:45] <furrywolf> ah
[22:17:03] <furrywolf> and this drive just won't run off single phase? bleh. :)
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[22:17:27] <JT-Shop> according to Siemens it is a "high performance drive" so it acts like a high maintenance woman
[22:17:36] <furrywolf> ...
[22:17:46] * furrywolf stops trying to help JT-Shop
[22:17:51] <JT-Shop> the drive want's clean 3-phase with unlimited amps lol
[22:18:10] <JT-Shop> I'm beyond help but the drive is nuts
[22:18:49] * JT-Shop want's so bad to toss in some AC servos on the axes and a vector drive spindle it ain't funny
[22:18:58] <furrywolf> do you have any smaller 3ph equipment? turn all of it on, one at a time, then try starting the big motor.
[22:19:17] <furrywolf> (things with normal 3ph induction motors, no vfds or other drives)
[22:19:30] <JT-Shop> I have the surface grinder... hmm
[22:20:21] <furrywolf> in general, with rotary converters, additional spinning unloaded equipment increases the capacity... when you try starting something else, the other equipment's momentum causes it to generate on the wild leg and help keep it from drooping.
[22:21:08] <JT-Shop> I actually ran the Samson spindle motor in neutral to help run the VMC once
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[22:22:39] <furrywolf> you might want to pause your machining job while trying this, just in case. :)
[22:22:54] <JT-Shop> I'll test it between parts lol
[22:23:41] * furrywolf has found turning the spindle off during a job is a good way to get to replace a cutter
[22:24:26] <JT-Shop> the VMC is a rack drive with one power section and 4 drives all connected together so they all go down together
[22:25:07] <furrywolf> ah
[22:25:33] <furrywolf> and you're sure it doesn't run just fine on single phase? :)
[22:26:05] <furrywolf> most devices with an input stage of rectifiers and filter caps run just fine off single
[22:26:26] <zeeshan> the drive is prolly worth $5k
[22:26:27] <zeeshan> lol
[22:26:35] <zeeshan> id just convert over to single phase
[22:26:48] <zeeshan> kinda hard to when stuff is working though :)
[22:27:36] <furrywolf> I actually asked Lambda about running their 3ph power supplies off 1ph, and they said they all work, except some have to be derated to 2/3rds power to prevent overheating of the input rectifiers.
[22:28:43] <t12> is there documentation somewhere for setting up the mesa xylinx dev evnironment?
[22:37:43] <JT-Shop> doesn't Tom_itx have some info on that?
[22:41:35] <t12> i think i'm ready to try and tackle implmenting the mitsu encoder interfacing
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[22:51:38] <Tom_itx> yep, actually i added it to the wiki too
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[22:52:12] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx14_install_index.php
[22:53:19] <MacGalempsy> evening zeeshan
[22:53:26] <zeeshan> hi
[22:53:31] <Tom_L> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Editing_MESA_Bitfiles
[22:53:34] <Tom_L> or the wiki link
[22:54:38] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop how'd the parts come out?
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[23:04:59] <JT-Shop> they look beautiful and I only have 7 more T's to cut after this one
[23:06:13] <Tom_itx> did you wind up hand coding or something else?
[23:13:38] <t12> tom: thanks very much!
[23:13:58] <Tom_itx> np
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[23:27:28] <JT-Shop> I used my CAM
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[23:28:37] <furrywolf> I have CAM too! Completely Analog Machining! oh, wait...
[23:28:44] * furrywolf needs to find cad+cam software
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[23:38:50] <Cromaglious> wow locked up my machine, haven't done that in awhile
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