#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-04-09

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[00:00:20] <beebee> yes I mentioned vectors
[00:00:42] <beebee> could it be that i haven't configured aspire correctly?
[00:01:17] <andypugh> I think what we are saying is that despite being LinuxCNC enthusiasts, we think that your existing system ought to work, and that switching to our pet project is likely to be more effort for you. My feeling is that you wouldn’t get quite such a balanced view from the Mach3 crowd. This is based on advising someone doing a retrofit on his commercial machine that it would take at least 2 months before he was making money a
[00:01:17] <andypugh> with LinuxCNC (keeping existing drives and motors). And the Mach3 forums saying that swapping all his servos for steppers, Geckos, Smoothstepper and Mach3 would see him back making money in 2 weeks. Last time I looked the poor chap was 6 months in and still not making parts :-(
[00:01:20] <furrywolf> I know absolutely nothing about aspire, including what it is.
[00:01:55] <furrywolf> ... replace servos with steppers? I think I'll sell my car and get a horse too.
[00:03:10] <andypugh> beebee: If you are looking at Conqueror products, are you in the UK?
[00:03:23] <beebee> andypugh: Ireland
[00:03:35] <andypugh> Our bit or the other bit :-)
[00:03:47] <furrywolf> looking at their programming guide, the card isn't that bright... even circular interpolation is handed off to the software. it does talk g-code, not proprietary, so their software must be splitting every line needed interpolation into many simply g0s... which could be a lot of them.
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[00:04:09] <beebee> andypugh: ROI
[00:04:59] <beebee> the other bit :P
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[00:06:41] <andypugh> I have been there. A few times actually. Mainly the underground bits.
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[00:07:38] <furrywolf> G5P1 and G5P0 might cause weird stuttering issues, but it sounds like their software should be setting them automatically
[00:08:15] <andypugh> The only bit of Ulster I have visited is Derry/Londonderry/Doire which is a place with such complicated politics that they can’t even decide what to call it.
[00:08:19] <furrywolf> reading their programming guide, brain-damaged firmware seems increasingly likely. :)
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[00:09:16] <andypugh> Anyway, yes, it seems likely that your nice curves are becoming short segments and starving the queue.
[00:09:16] <furrywolf> if you do G5P1, it'll queue multiple moves... but it ignores acceleration, and will break (lose steps) if you send it any kind of sudden direction change. G5P0 will respect the acceleration settings... but comes to a complete stop between every command? wtf?
[00:10:13] <andypugh> If that is true then I recant my suggestion of persisting with the M401 and insist that you convert to LinuxCNC immediately :-)
[00:11:27] <beebee> i've been looking a few options. smoothstepper and cslabs ethernet controller. also i don't use mach3. mach3 won't work with the m401.
[00:11:57] <beebee> didn't you say LinuxCNC won't talk to the m401?
[00:12:19] <furrywolf> correct. linuxcnc will NOT talk to the m401.
[00:12:39] <andypugh> Yes. If you switch to either Mach3 or LinuxCNC then you will have to ditch the M401.
[00:13:00] <beebee> so should I look at the mesa combo and LinuxCNC?
[00:13:11] <Tom_itx> it's a good combo for sure
[00:13:13] <andypugh> But from what furrywolf has said that is where the problem is
[00:13:32] <andypugh> You could initially look at LinuxCNC and the parport.
[00:13:43] <andypugh> Do you have a spare PC?
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[00:14:09] <furrywolf> the manuals mention newer and older versions of cards, and contradict themselves repeatedly.
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[00:14:26] <beebee> andypugh: yes I do have a spare PC
[00:14:31] <andypugh> You could set up a LinuxCNC parport system to drive the parts downstream of the M401 without disabling the machine.
[00:14:58] <furrywolf> http://www.eaziform.co.uk/files/ProgrammingGuide.pdf you can see what you make of the G5 command. :)
[00:15:28] <andypugh> You may find maximum speed limited by the parport, but you would at least get some confidence with the software for very little capital outlay.
[00:16:22] <furrywolf> how the hell do they have a 32mhz processor and they can't do circular interpolation on-card?
[00:16:33] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Circles are hard.
[00:17:07] <furrywolf> not that hard. :P
[00:18:03] <furrywolf> "Full 4-axis motion support including cubic and Bezier splines" is one of their features... but if you read the manual, splines are done in software... and circular interpolation... and imperial units... and etc. heh.
[00:18:06] <andypugh> beebee: Euro-source for Mesa is: http://eusurplus.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=63 or www.mesanet.eu (the former is someone active on the forums)
[00:18:17] <Tom_itx> you might be setting up the configs twice though
[00:19:24] <andypugh> In _theory_ you could hack the right layer of LinuxCNC to send motion control commands to the M401. But I am not sure what that would achieve in the end.
[00:20:18] <furrywolf> it'd achieve an ugly hack? :)
[00:20:49] <beebee> 7I76-5I25 + LinuxCNC would work on any computer?
[00:21:06] <Tom_itx> any computer with decent latency
[00:21:10] <cpresser> most computers
[00:21:47] <andypugh> beebee: No. You need a PCI port for the 5i25. You can use a 6i25 in a PCIE port: http://eusurplus.com/index.php?route=product/search&search=7i76&sub_category=true&description=true
[00:21:53] <Tom_itx> you can burn the iso and run a latency test
[00:22:06] <andypugh> (the cards are otherwise identical)
[00:22:37] <furrywolf> again, you don't need good latency for a mesa card.
[00:22:48] <andypugh> You need good-ish latency.
[00:22:57] <Tom_itx> you still need to check it
[00:23:08] <furrywolf> pcw says they'll work fine even if you have to do a 2ms thread. :)
[00:23:13] <beebee> my computer has free PCI slots
[00:23:13] <andypugh> The 6mS I got with a RaspPi wasn’t usable :-)
[00:23:55] <furrywolf> lol
[00:23:56] <beebee> can I run a latency test on windows XP?
[00:24:03] <Tom_itx> no
[00:24:14] <Tom_itx> you can run from the live cd though
[00:24:27] <andypugh> Start cheap. Download the DVD, try a parallel port config driving existing hardware. if it looks good then go for the Mesa kit.
[00:24:39] <Tom_itx> oh yeah... it's a DVD now
[00:24:43] <beebee> I see, I'll run the test. what is an example of a good score?
[00:25:38] <andypugh> Anything under 20,000nS is good for software stepping. Less than 100,000nS is good for the Mesa card, but you might be able to get away with more.
[00:25:39] <beebee> i'm not using parport, just rs323
[00:25:59] <andypugh> Do you have a parport on the spare PC?
[00:26:03] <Tom_itx> rs232 is a no go
[00:26:04] <furrywolf> less than 2,000,000ns is fine according to pcw
[00:26:21] <furrywolf> rs232 is pretty slow...
[00:26:21] <beebee> andypugh: yes I do
[00:26:46] <Tom_itx> furrywolf you need the IO pins
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[00:28:15] <andypugh> So, first boot that machine from the DVD and do the latency test. And have a play around with LinuxCNC and the simulator configs. If that all looks OK then go for the Linux install and try a parallel port config to drive your existing hardware, then if that looks good, get the Mesa or Pico or General Mecahtronics or…. stuff.
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[00:29:17] <andypugh> Unless you just want to go for it in one go and €200 isn’t a big deal, of course :-)
[00:31:44] <andypugh> I never like to encourage anyone to rip into a working machine.
[00:31:47] * furrywolf still can't afford a 7i76e
[00:32:27] <beebee> i'm gonna need to look under the hood and see exactly what's going on. i'll come back with better information sometime. thank you very much everyone for your help :~)
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[00:33:23] <andypugh> That’s why we hang out here.
[00:34:09] <Tom_L> andypugh, what have you torn into lately?
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[00:34:22] <andypugh> My thumb?
[00:34:27] <Tom_L> hah
[00:34:32] <beebee> :)
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[00:35:14] <andypugh> I performed an autotrephination last week. http://www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Drain-Your-Subungual-Hematoma-blood-pocke/
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[00:36:02] <Tom_L> hot needle or drill bit?
[00:36:15] <andypugh> Strange how drilling a hole in yourself seems like a really bad idea until it starts to feel like a really _good_ idea.
[00:36:34] <andypugh> 0.8mm drill bit, twiddled by hand.
[00:36:42] <Tom_L> until it grabs the last little bur and digs in a bit too far
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[00:37:07] <andypugh> Hence the hand-twiddling.
[00:38:35] <Tom_L> i notice he has the bourbon close by
[00:39:01] <Tom_L> a little for the wound and alot for the gullet
[00:41:52] <andypugh> I injure myself in minor ways all the time, and nearly everything stops hurting after 20 minutes or so. The thumb was a whole new experience, it got worse and worse for 24 hours until I drilled the hole.
[00:43:23] <andypugh> I wonder how I can find someone locally with a planer? I want to re-machine a lathe bed.
[00:44:02] <andypugh> Not a common machine to find nowadays, but exactly what I need.
[00:46:00] <SpeedEvil> I have a planar thicknesser :)
[00:46:29] <andypugh> Not _quite_ the machine I have in mind
[00:47:47] <andypugh> Maybe this one? http://www.lathes.co.uk/milnesplaner/page3.html
[00:49:03] <furrywolf> one of my favorite tv moments was some construction show, where someone was framing a house... and slipped with the nail gun. put a framing nail clean through his thumb. grabbed the vise grips from his toolbelt, yanked the nail back out, kept on working...
[00:49:04] <furrywolf> bbl
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[01:04:58] <_methods> yeah good luck finding a shop with a planer anymore
[01:05:26] <_methods> i think there is one shop in my area that has one
[01:05:33] <_methods> at the ship yards
[01:08:45] <andypugh> Stuart S has a _huge_ sectional one in storage
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[01:12:43] <malcom2073> Oh man, that's what I need
[01:12:52] <_methods> what size part are you wanting to plane?
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[01:13:38] <malcom2073> Here I am asking about surface grinding huge parts, that seems like a much easier option
[01:13:57] <_methods> good luck finding one
[01:14:05] <malcom2073> Yeah heh
[01:14:39] <malcom2073> Man that looks perfect though :P
[01:14:48] <malcom2073> Like a giant shaper
[01:15:06] <_methods> shaper and planer are analogous
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[01:15:42] <malcom2073> Not seen many shapers this size though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4kPDhrhlgk&NR=1
[01:16:14] <_methods> well usually a large shaper is called a planer
[01:16:26] <malcom2073> Makes sense
[01:16:31] <_methods> but they are same thing
[01:17:23] <andypugh> No, they are very different
[01:17:28] <_methods> heh when a part comes loose on one of those bad boys
[01:17:41] <malcom2073> Doesn't a shaper usually have a moving tool?
[01:17:50] <andypugh> A shaper has a moving tool, a planer has a stationary tool and moves the workpiece
[01:18:17] <_methods> ok sounds good to me
[01:19:35] <andypugh> I posted a picture earlier of a much bigger one.
[01:20:27] <andypugh> And I think that the one that SWS has is 100’ if he puts all the bed sections together. Though that is a travelling-bridge plano-miller really.
[01:20:38] <_methods> i don't even see them at auctions often anymore
[01:20:44] <_methods> they are scarce
[01:22:04] <_methods> i keep gettin out bid on keyseaters too
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[01:35:17] <furrywolf> I have a planer... of course, it's the small wood type, not the giant anything type.. :P
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[01:35:51] <furrywolf> mine does wood 15" wide by 6" thick.
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[01:42:09] <andypugh> That’s technically a horizontal miller :-)
[01:42:30] <andypugh> I have machined wood on a shaper :-)
[01:43:02] <furrywolf> well, it's not THAT small... >400lbs
[01:43:30] <furrywolf> not including the dust vacuum system
[01:43:41] <furrywolf> of course, I don't have a shop, so it lives under a tarp in the driveway.
[01:44:12] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering getting a lot of 3*2 timber, and making me up some shop.
[01:44:23] <andypugh> I made a Backgammon set by machining accurate lozenges in wood glueing together, machining square, then slicing the block up to make very thick marquetry.
[01:44:30] <furrywolf> 3x2?!
[01:44:51] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: trusses
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[01:46:31] <furrywolf> why would you use an odd size? or is that common there?
[01:47:22] <SpeedEvil> It's stiff enough, and significantly cheaper than 4*2
[01:48:17] <furrywolf> it's impossible to find here. I tried finding a piece once, tried every lumber yard in the area... finally found one that had it, but only in cedar. inside the walls here, there is ONE cedar stud. lol
[01:48:28] <SpeedEvil> :)
[01:48:40] <furrywolf> I was enlarging the water heater box and needed smaller wood to make more room
[01:49:04] <SpeedEvil> http://www.mkmbs.co.uk/Menu/timber-%7Band%7D-sheet-materials/List/type:carcassing~rough-sawn_contentmode:list#/contentmode:thumb
[01:49:32] <SpeedEvil> - 30% higher or so than I'm paying when I login - but the best I've found :/
[01:49:47] <SpeedEvil> It's at least usable for worst-case budgeting
[01:51:05] <furrywolf> 2x4 is cheap here
[01:51:10] <furrywolf> it's what everything is built with
[01:52:04] <SpeedEvil> yeah - 2*4 is overkill for most of the structure
[01:52:30] <SpeedEvil> 60cm centres, single-story structure, 2.4m or so high - it's really not needed
[01:53:38] <SpeedEvil> Even doing the numbers for 80MPH winds
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[01:54:55] <furrywolf> 2x4s are probably required by law here... I've never checked the codes (always used them for everything), but there's all sorts of requirements for earthquake-proofing...
[01:55:07] <Tom_itx> 70mph will knock down hwy signs
[01:55:18] <furrywolf> Tom_itx: no, it won't.
[01:55:37] <Tom_itx> i can guarantee it will. i have first hand experience
[01:55:39] <furrywolf> not unless you have really shitty, dangerous signs. :P
[01:55:45] <Tom_itx> I beam
[01:55:54] <Tom_itx> bent over like a twig
[01:56:03] <furrywolf> ok... we get gusty winds over that here, and they survive. also, a close-passing truck will give a wind blast pretty close to that...
[01:56:15] <Tom_itx> we get sustained high wind here
[01:56:40] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: this is technically a shed
[01:56:54] <SpeedEvil> No foundations
[01:57:13] <SpeedEvil> The roof will have a lot of weight around the edges
[01:58:52] <furrywolf> I've seen videos of hurricanes etc, and it takes a lot before the signs go...
[01:59:21] <furrywolf> then again... i-beams? who the heck uses ibeams? caltrans uses PT 4x6 for small signs. :)
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[02:21:33] <zeeshan|2> hi andypugh
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[02:22:38] <andypugh> hi
[02:22:42] <zeeshan|2> :)
[02:22:47] <andypugh> not here much longer
[02:22:52] <zeeshan|2> damn it!
[02:23:01] <zeeshan|2> damn the time zone difference
[02:23:37] <andypugh> In fact, I have to go now.
[02:23:44] <andypugh> Bye :-)
[02:23:45] <zeeshan|2> cu
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[02:56:57] <furrywolf> now that I agree with.
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[03:03:35] <zeeshan|2> ive about had it with this polymer shit
[03:04:11] <furrywolf> it's ok. graduating is overrated.
[03:04:21] <zeeshan|2> dude
[03:04:23] <zeeshan|2> i did the same experiment
[03:04:29] <zeeshan|2> and im getting a completely differennt result
[03:04:42] <zeeshan|2> i understand viscoelastically from a theoretical point of view
[03:04:51] <zeeshan|2> but i wasn't applying it into my experiments
[03:05:28] <furrywolf> time to update your model, then. :)
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[03:06:46] <furrywolf> what result did you get this time?
[03:06:58] <zeeshan|2> do you know about viscoelasticity
[03:08:05] <furrywolf> it's what makes my tempurpedic mattress so nice and comfy.
[03:08:16] <zeeshan|2> well you know how regular steel
[03:08:20] <zeeshan|2> has a modulus of elasticity yea?
[03:08:35] <zeeshan|2> you put a force on it, and it deforms an x amount, and if you remove that force, it returns
[03:08:46] <zeeshan|2> almost instantaneously
[03:09:24] <zeeshan|2> with polymers, and other viscoelastic materials, the time duration of the force will determine it's overall deformation
[03:09:33] <zeeshan|2> so if you put 100lb for 5 min you might stretch it twice
[03:09:46] <zeeshan|2> you put it it for 1 hour it might stretch three times
[03:09:57] <zeeshan|2> they are always moving
[03:10:07] <furrywolf> yes
[03:10:32] <zeeshan|2> adding heat is a solution to speed up the time it takes to get to its final deformation
[03:10:37] <furrywolf> and your polymer isn't behaving like an ideal shape memory polymer, and is instead exhibiting viscoelastic effects too?
[03:10:39] <zeeshan|2> but then you activate another mode ! creep!
[03:10:50] <zeeshan|2> no my smp is being a smp
[03:10:56] <zeeshan|2> but the polymer im comparing it to is being a bastard
[03:11:08] <zeeshan|2> it's not supposed to be recovering back to its original shape and it is!
[03:11:16] <furrywolf> lol
[03:11:31] <furrywolf> compare it to, say, wet clay instead? :)
[03:11:39] <zeeshan|2> haha
[03:13:32] <furrywolf> "To improve model reference accuracy, a commercially available kaolinite-based material was used as a surrogate for a polymer exhibiting minimal viscoelastic effects under the experimental parameters"
[03:13:48] <zeeshan|2> dude this is the thing.
[03:14:04] <zeeshan|2> either someone gave me the wrong film
[03:14:09] <zeeshan|2> or something fucked up is going on
[03:14:27] <zeeshan|2> all i know is im fed up
[03:14:29] <zeeshan|2> :/
[03:14:45] * furrywolf has no idea what this film is, or enough of an idea of what happened to answer that
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[03:15:43] <furrywolf> I do, however, know that I've read enough crap to produce sadly-realistic overstuffed fake-educated-sounding writing...
[03:15:51] <pcw_home> I once worked for a company that made a asphalt tester (resilient modulus apparatus )
[03:15:53] <pcw_home> it squeezed samples and measured the expansion at right angles to the applied force
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[03:16:23] <zeeshan|2> lol furrywolf
[03:17:06] <zeeshan|2> why is resilience important for asphalt?
[03:17:18] <pcw_home> lifetime i think
[03:17:53] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: i might have pretty much design a micro indentor apparatus soon
[03:18:02] <zeeshan|2> it's going to be crazy challenging for me
[03:18:10] <zeeshan|2> i have access to a very precise load cell
[03:18:19] <zeeshan|2> im thinking of using servo control and a glass scale
[03:18:28] <furrywolf> precise load cells are a lot of work. long springs are easy.
[03:18:30] <zeeshan|2> along with ball screw
[03:18:52] <zeeshan|2> and then temperature controll will be used using a combination of peltiers and a heating element
[03:19:12] <furrywolf> asphalt never really hardens, and slowly squishes flatter and wider with time... some batches moreso than others.
[03:19:26] <zeeshan|2> and this whole thing will be enclosed in an insulated box with the top face of the box being a quartz glass window
[03:19:30] <furrywolf> isn't a heating element a bit redundant when you have peltiers?
[03:19:30] <pcw_home> probably precise timing also for viscoelastic materials
[03:19:31] <zeeshan|2> and then ill nitrogen purge the chamber
[03:19:54] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: the problem is with peltiers you still need to release the heat from the hot junction when youre trying to cool
[03:20:12] <zeeshan|2> so if i have a heat pipe or some sort of other mechanism to remove heat
[03:20:15] <pcw_home> yeah you just run Peltiers from a hbridge
[03:20:25] <zeeshan|2> it'll just be designed for removing heat
[03:20:28] <pcw_home> (or add heat when reversed)
[03:20:33] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: that effect works to your advantage
[03:20:48] <zeeshan|2> but the thing is my peltiers will be wedges within an aluminum block
[03:20:51] <zeeshan|2> 2 half plates
[03:20:59] <zeeshan|2> (atleast thats how im imagining it)
[03:21:19] <zeeshan|2> like do you guys really think i could reverse the polarity fast enough
[03:21:22] <zeeshan|2> to get precise temp control?
[03:21:24] <zeeshan|2> within a c?
[03:21:26] <zeeshan|2> 1 c
[03:21:34] <pcw_home> yep
[03:21:36] <furrywolf> during cooling, the hot side gets hot. when you want to heat, the heat is stored on the former hot side, and you get an initial period of extra-efficient heating. when you go to cool, the new hot side is already nice and cold, so you get an initial period of much more efficient cooling.
[03:22:13] <furrywolf> 1C is coarse. you could get much more precise control.
[03:22:18] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[03:22:22] <zeeshan|2> i will look up designs that do this
[03:23:04] <zeeshan|2> so basically my control parameters are: load, displacement, temperature, time
[03:23:32] <zeeshan|2> i might drop this whole idea if it's too complex to do over 4 months
[03:23:34] <pcw_home> PCR machines use Peltiers for this
[03:23:39] <furrywolf> for an application requiring fast thermal cycling, put a lot of thermal storage (i.e. a block of copper) on the reject side. when cooling, you store heat here, that you can reuse for heating, which "stores cold", that you can reuse for cooling...
[03:24:29] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/FMw425E.png
[03:24:43] <zeeshan|2> all the faces that you see there with the exception of the top
[03:24:46] <zeeshan|2> will be insulated though
[03:24:56] <zeeshan|2> so i guess the copper will really be hot
[03:25:11] <zeeshan|2> i think ill need to have heat pipes coming out
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[03:25:29] <furrywolf> if you're testing a very thin film, the ambient air will have quite an effect, not just the material it's on.
[03:25:43] <zeeshan|2> thats why ill have a fan
[03:25:49] <zeeshan|2> circulating on the temp control side
[03:25:56] <zeeshan|2> thats pretty much the standard thing these guys do
[03:26:08] <furrywolf> just checking. :P
[03:26:18] <zeeshan|2> concept :P
[03:26:30] <zeeshan|2> is the voltage draw of a peltier constant?
[03:26:37] <zeeshan|2> of temperature dependant
[03:26:41] * zeeshan|2 doesnt know anything :)
[03:26:43] <furrywolf> is "voltage draw" a meaningful term?
[03:26:53] <zeeshan|2> well what im trying to understand is
[03:27:03] <zeeshan|2> if one side of the chip is 10C and another is -10C
[03:27:07] <furrywolf> peltiers work at any voltage. there is no minimum Vf.
[03:27:10] <zeeshan|2> and then in case 2, its 20C and -20C
[03:27:21] <zeeshan|2> what is the electrical consequence on the peltier
[03:27:34] <furrywolf> however, when there's a temperature differential, they'll fight you by generating voltage of their own.
[03:27:54] <pcw_home> they are basically high voltage Thermocouples
[03:28:16] <pcw_home> (externally anyway)
[03:28:20] <furrywolf> if you're not doing simple off/hot/cold switching, you'll probably want to drive it off a constant-current supply.
[03:28:36] <furrywolf> hrmm, or maybe constant-voltage... I don't remember. lol
[03:28:54] <zeeshan|2> whats the lowest temp i can hit on the cold side?
[03:28:56] <zeeshan|2> -20?
[03:28:58] <zeeshan|2> -50000000
[03:29:03] <zeeshan|2> absolute 0?
[03:29:04] <zeeshan|2> :D
[03:29:40] <pcw_home> They stack them for really low temps
[03:29:53] <zeeshan|2> id like to hit -20c
[03:29:55] <furrywolf> no, the efficiency drops as the differential increases, to the point where all you get is more heat, no more cooling.
[03:30:12] <zeeshan|2> okay so that means that the hot side definitely needs heat pipes
[03:30:14] <furrywolf> -20C shouldn't be too hard with good cooling of the hot side and a well-insulated cold side.
[03:30:16] <pcw_home> Yeah how big a sample do you have?
[03:30:18] <zeeshan|2> going to a heat exchanger
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[03:30:27] <zeeshan|2> they will be 3"x3"
[03:30:40] <furrywolf> heat pipes are hard. water is hoses is easy.
[03:30:42] <zeeshan|2> in a chamber with nitrogen with a space of like
[03:30:57] <zeeshan|2> 1" tall by 3"x3"
[03:30:59] <furrywolf> especially since you can buy a commercial cpu water cooler complete with peltier mount and save some fab time
[03:31:09] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: can't use liquids
[03:31:18] <zeeshan|2> if i could, i woulda just used liquid nitrogen
[03:31:22] <zeeshan|2> and a heating element
[03:31:31] <zeeshan|2> wait, why am i not doing that?
[03:31:32] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[03:31:42] <furrywolf> my test with a peltier showed the cold side, with a ~2x4" aluminum plate on it, would grow about 3/8" of frost.
[03:31:54] <zeeshan|2> nice!
[03:31:59] <furrywolf> from a $6 ebay 100W peltier
[03:32:25] <zeeshan|2> our enviromental chambers used pid to control injection of liquid n2 and heating of an element
[03:32:28] <zeeshan|2> to get desired temp
[03:32:35] <zeeshan|2> they can easily hold within .2C
[03:32:51] <zeeshan|2> *use
[03:33:09] <furrywolf> yeah, know what? precision control of liquid n2 is a lot harder than precision control of a peltier. :P
[03:33:26] <pcw_home> We used to have a environmental chamber that used CO2
[03:33:28] <zeeshan|2> for me it might be easier
[03:33:35] <zeeshan|2> cause i know how heating elements work
[03:33:39] <zeeshan|2> and its a matter of switching it on and off
[03:33:50] <zeeshan|2> and on the cold side, its a matter of switching the liquid n2 solenoid on and off
[03:34:11] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: this takes c02 but then you're limited to like -30C
[03:34:17] <pcw_home> same with Peltier except you can heat and cool
[03:34:17] <zeeshan|2> with liquid n2 i think you can hit -80C
[03:34:34] <zeeshan|2> yea ill loook it up
[03:34:41] <furrywolf> if the problem is space, can a large fansink simply be mounted 6" away from the sample box with a heavy copper bar connecting it to the peltier?
[03:34:42] <zeeshan|2> maybe i can buy a controller for it
[03:35:05] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: thats what i meant by heat pipes
[03:35:26] <furrywolf> 2" wide by 1/4" thick nickel-plated copper bar is widely available, new and scrap. it's used for bus bars in big electrical things.
[03:35:32] <zeeshan|2> i guess with heat pipes you'd have a medium that transfers heat
[03:35:54] <zeeshan|2> lemme show you the pic of the area im constrained to
[03:36:05] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/DhfLYxA.jpg
[03:36:07] <pcw_home> we used it for -40 (dry ice is -78C)
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[03:36:36] <furrywolf> oh. a heat pipe is a specific device, using evaporation of a suitably choosen refrigerant at hot points that condenses at cold points, with wicking in a layer of some other material to move it back to the hot side... not a copper bar. :P
[03:36:45] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: youre right
[03:37:01] <zeeshan|2> copper bar would be easier to implement
[03:37:02] <furrywolf> hence why I said heat pipes are hard.
[03:37:05] <furrywolf> copper bars are easy. :P
[03:37:17] <furrywolf> oh, you have tons of room.
[03:37:26] <zeeshan|2> just limited to the Z height
[03:37:35] <zeeshan|2> i tried using quartz glass to see how much it distorts the images
[03:37:37] <zeeshan|2> it doesnt at all
[03:37:40] <furrywolf> mill a pocket in the bar for the peltier
[03:37:43] <pcw_home> what maximum temperature do you need (Peltiers are pretty easy to melt)
[03:37:44] <zeeshan|2> it just changes the index of refraction a bit
[03:37:48] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: 80C
[03:38:03] <furrywolf> measuring through glass might tweak the z measurements slightly...
[03:38:05] <zeeshan|2> 100C would be nice
[03:38:12] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: i tested that today
[03:38:48] <zeeshan|2> from my memory i recall an insignficant difference
[03:38:49] <furrywolf> as long as you look perfectly straight, you're probably ok...
[03:38:51] <zeeshan|2> like 5 micron
[03:39:11] <zeeshan|2> will the peltier melt at 100c?
[03:39:24] <furrywolf> for cooling the hot side, cpu cooler fansinks are dirt cheap and perfectly sized.
[03:39:46] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: i was thinking of brazing an array of them
[03:39:47] <zeeshan|2> haha
[03:39:56] <furrywolf> ... you don't need that much cooling.
[03:39:59] <zeeshan|2> if i can demonstrate this stupid polymer bullshit
[03:40:06] <zeeshan|2> they'll approve the funding for this device
[03:40:14] <zeeshan|2> furrywolf: make it big or go home
[03:40:17] <furrywolf> you probably will have a 30W continuous heat load tops...
[03:41:11] <furrywolf> you might not even need fans.
[03:41:29] <zeeshan|2> better to over design it
[03:41:33] <zeeshan|2> and just turn off a fan
[03:41:38] <zeeshan|2> vs have to add crap later on
[03:41:43] <pcw_home> https://tetech.com/peltier-thermoelectric-cooler-modules/high-temperature/
[03:41:50] <furrywolf> no, it's better to have it done within 4 months.
[03:41:58] <pcw_home> (200C models)
[03:41:59] <zeeshan|2> 200C!
[03:42:00] <zeeshan|2> nice!
[03:42:36] <furrywolf> heh, I was about to paste a page from the same site. https://tetech.com/faqs/
[03:43:03] <zeeshan|2> there you go
[03:43:08] <zeeshan|2> looking at the datasheet
[03:43:16] <zeeshan|2> voltage has a direct effect o nthe heat removal
[03:43:30] <zeeshan|2> and waste heat
[03:43:53] <zeeshan|2> https://tetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/VT-199-1.4-0.8.pdf
[03:44:11] <zeeshan|2> and since thiis company is using matlab to plot those
[03:44:12] <furrywolf> all sorts of useless FAQs, including suggested PWM frequencies for temperature controllers. :P
[03:44:14] <zeeshan|2> they might gain me as a customer!
[03:44:24] <furrywolf> (which I think you asked once)
[03:45:15] <zeeshan|2> hm
[03:45:17] <zeeshan|2> they even make a temp controller.
[03:45:43] <zeeshan|2> rs232 communication too
[03:45:43] <zeeshan|2> nice!
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[03:46:34] <furrywolf> looks like they can sell you every part you need, in exchange for you supplying as many zeroes as they need.
[03:46:44] <zeeshan|2> well
[03:46:48] <zeeshan|2> the temp controller looks like $189
[03:47:00] <zeeshan|2> can control 0-50V, upto 20A
[03:47:12] <zeeshan|2> my only q is can i connect it to more than 1 peltier
[03:47:15] <zeeshan|2> i don't see why not.
[03:47:15] <furrywolf> what, you're not getting the one with the blue lcd? :P
[03:47:28] <furrywolf> you do remember I said shiny is a very important part of a project, right? :P
[03:47:31] <zeeshan|2> lol
[03:47:42] <zeeshan|2> they havent given me a number
[03:47:54] <zeeshan|2> but i think most of the money will go towards the load cell controller
[03:47:55] <furrywolf> yes, you can connect it to any number of peltiers that draw less than 20A total at the voltage you're using.
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[03:48:37] <furrywolf> you might use two stacked for your application
[03:48:45] <zeeshan|2> why stacked
[03:49:23] <furrywolf> larger temperature differential
[03:49:41] <furrywolf> parallel = more heat transfer, but same limits. series = less heat transfer, but larger limits.
[03:49:46] <archivist> I hate the conduction of heat back through an unpowered peltier, have to maintain control, not on off control
[03:50:06] <zeeshan|2> so according to the spec sheet of what i posted
[03:50:11] <zeeshan|2> 80C is the max temp difference
[03:50:54] <furrywolf> you don't want to design for the maximum. it's at zero heat movement. since your part will be leaking, you'll have heat movement, and won't see it.
[03:51:24] <furrywolf> you might get away with one, but the cost of the peltiers is pretty small compared to the cost of everything else needed.
[03:52:09] <furrywolf> also, the performance diagrams in that pdf only show 65C maximum with zero heat moved...
[03:53:21] <furrywolf> running them up to the max just results in a lot of heat you have to get rid of...
[03:53:55] <zeeshan|2> yea
[03:53:57] <zeeshan|2> the cop drops
[03:53:59] <furrywolf> if you figure a relastic differential of 40C, and you want -20C, you'd have to have a hot side of only 20C... not happening. so you need two stacked.
[03:54:25] <zeeshan|2> i wonder if that controller
[03:54:32] <zeeshan|2> can reverse the polarity
[03:54:34] <zeeshan|2> and heat the stage too
[03:54:36] <furrywolf> extra capacity also results is faster cooling, rather than having to wait a half hour while it cools the last couple degrees...
[03:54:44] <furrywolf> probably not
[03:54:51] <furrywolf> s/is/in
[03:56:05] <furrywolf> "The TC-48-20 is an easy to use yet powerful cool-only or heat-only PWM temperature controller."
[03:56:08] <zeeshan|2> yep
[03:56:13] <zeeshan|2> you need a "bipolar" module
[03:56:15] <zeeshan|2> to do what im doing
[03:56:18] <zeeshan|2> so the more expensive one :/
[03:56:34] <furrywolf> The TC-720 is a bipolar, heat and cool, thermoelectric temperature controller with USB communications. only $617! :P
[03:56:48] <zeeshan|2> you really like the 617 version
[03:56:48] <zeeshan|2> lol
[03:57:02] <furrywolf> you said you're building a CNC thing of some form to do the indents?
[03:57:04] <zeeshan|2> he Model TC-36-25 RS232 is a bi-polar (heat and cool) proportional-integral-derivative temperature controller that can modulate power input from 12 V up to 36 V, or from 0 V to 36 V with a second power supply, at currents of up to 25 A.
[03:57:09] <zeeshan|2> yea
[03:57:17] <furrywolf> linuxcnc should have no problem functioning as a temperature controller. :P
[03:57:30] <zeeshan|2> how bad ass would that be? :)
[03:57:37] <zeeshan|2> using linuxcnc's pid to control temp
[03:57:43] <zeeshan|2> and strain and displacement
[03:57:43] <zeeshan|2> haha
[03:58:14] <furrywolf> use any servo driver connected to the peltiers, and feed the thermister into one of the analog inputs on a mesa board... tell it that's the position encoder... tune your PID... :P
[03:58:23] <zeeshan|2> haha
[03:58:36] <zeeshan|2> since it uses a h-bridge
[03:58:37] <zeeshan|2> that'll work :)
[03:58:45] <furrywolf> yep :P
[03:58:54] <zeeshan|2> i'd need an amplifier between the thermocouple input
[03:58:55] <zeeshan|2> though
[03:59:18] <pcw_home> typically you need a inductor for a straight HBridge
[03:59:19] <furrywolf> yes, and you'd want it calibrated. an off-the-shelf thermometer unit that spoke something you could read might be easier.
[03:59:38] <zeeshan|2> we have a couple of omron thermoucples with calibration datasheets
[03:59:49] <zeeshan|2> but i can calibrate a tehrmcouple no problem
[03:59:53] <furrywolf> pcw_home: eh? h-bridges love resistive loads. no inductive currents they have to shunt back to the supply.
[04:00:00] <zeeshan|2> cause we have a master temp thing i can compare with
[04:00:01] <renesis> AD596/AD597 ftmfw
[04:00:28] <furrywolf> in that case, skip hardware calibration, and just have a map in your software somewhere.
[04:00:30] <zeeshan|2> don't put ideas in my head furry
[04:00:37] <zeeshan|2> usiung linuxcnc for doing this
[04:00:38] <zeeshan|2> haha
[04:00:50] <pcw_home> Umm no you need the inductor (the HBridge is functioning as a step down converter)
[04:00:52] <zeeshan|2> it might be easier and quicker to use seperate pids
[04:01:03] <zeeshan|2> and just have a master pythoin program to set the set points
[04:01:12] <zeeshan|2> depending on the test
[04:01:33] <archivist> lovely peltier graph of the td drop with power transfer http://www.heatsink-guide.com/peltier.htm
[04:01:38] <furrywolf> pcw_home: not if you have a device that doesn't mind being driven at full rail-rail voltage.
[04:01:41] <pcw_home> you don want the Peltier voltage to be > than required
[04:01:46] <furrywolf> I'm thinking a small chinese one running off 24V, not a big mains one
[04:02:21] <pcw_home> any more than required and you will just heat both sides
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[04:03:34] <pcw_home> (more than Peltier voltage is just lost in Ohmic heating)
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[04:05:04] <furrywolf> and, in any case, tossing a random inductor in series with the peltier is not a major project. :)
[04:05:06] <zeeshan|2> ^ too much electrical speak for me
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[04:05:58] <furrywolf> zeeshan|2: inductance will smooth the square-wave pwm into something more like a constant current with ripple
[04:06:19] <pcw_home> sleepy time for old folks... 'nite all
[04:06:25] <zeeshan|2> ah okay
[04:06:27] <furrywolf> which results in a happier peltier
[04:06:31] <furrywolf> almost bed time for me too
[04:07:00] <zeeshan|2> same
[04:07:04] <zeeshan|2> it'll be an early morning tomorrow
[04:07:08] <zeeshan|2> industry open house
[04:07:11] <zeeshan|2> we have to show off our research
[04:07:20] <zeeshan|2> more like im gonna vent about WTF at polymers
[04:09:21] <furrywolf> there's nothing wrong with polymers, only your modeling of their behavior.
[04:09:27] <zeeshan|2> fu
[04:09:35] <zeeshan|2> im not modeling anything
[04:09:37] <zeeshan|2> im experimenting!
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[04:11:05] <furrywolf> "Experiment results indicate the existing model of polymer behavior may not sufficiently account for additional variables"
[04:12:23] <zeeshan|2> youre right about that
[04:12:37] <zeeshan|2> you use the maxwel model for stress relxation
[04:12:37] <zeeshan|2> etc
[04:12:40] <zeeshan|2> but im not even at that point
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[04:15:22] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[04:16:12] <furrywolf> now you need to get a bunch more peltiers and some plutonium pellets, so it powers and heats itself.
[04:16:40] <furrywolf> polymer tester and RTG! :)
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[04:17:30] <zeeshan|2> lol
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[06:52:19] <Deejay> moin
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[07:40:20] <Computer_Barf> do digital drivers have any requirement that the breakout be digital?
[07:40:36] <Computer_Barf> or are all step / dir pretty much the same
[07:41:45] <Computer_Barf> im looking at buying drivers for my g0704 conversion and wondering what is the real diffrence / requirements between digital vs analog drivers
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[07:50:50] <archivist> step/dir is a digital signal, 0-10v that a servo uses is analogue
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[08:09:35] <Computer_Barf> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-23/nema-23-three_eighths-inch-dual-shaft-with-a-flat-570-oz-in
[08:10:05] <Computer_Barf> http://www.ebay.com/itm/KL-5056D-Digital-Bipolar-Stepper-Motor-Driver-32-bit-DSP-Based-/181583486350?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a47381d8e
[08:10:23] <Computer_Barf> archivist: there is the stepper and driver I am looking at
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[08:17:34] <archivist> the driver looks similar to the driver (case design) I use
[08:18:01] <archivist> lots of sellers badge them
[08:18:42] <Computer_Barf> what do you mean "badge"?
[08:19:56] <archivist> stick their name on something made in china
[08:20:40] <archivist> Longshine being the likely chinese maker of that one
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[09:18:52] <XXCoder> yo
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[12:30:07] <jthornton> wow reverse run
[12:37:50] <Loetmichel> soo... the kitchen rack/cupboard i just buildt... not THAT pretty i guess but useful... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15753 by all means better than stacking those folding boxes to the ceiling and risking them topple over (and wife has a place for her bread and ice maker) ... commence sorting things in there to get the kitchen clean now...
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[12:48:00] <SpeedEvil> :)
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[13:03:40] <jdh> new PLC has much faster scan rate than old. It is exposing some race conditions in some remote comm stuff
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[13:07:30] <archivist> jdh serial comms? so many forget to setup flow control on serial devices
[13:07:42] <jdh> tcp/ip
[13:08:12] <jdh> poor planning mainly. they just worked before due to inherent delays
[13:08:57] <archivist> can be "fun" chasing bugs
[13:09:26] <jdh> fortunately, I have a vendor to do so.
[13:10:40] <archivist> had a weird fault this morning, dns got confused on a router, I thought it was the box I was using, rebooted, pulled hair out etc, nothing helped, rebooted the router in the next room, fixed!
[13:11:33] <jdh> that has been fairly common for me with home style routers
[13:11:46] <archivist> dns caching--
[13:11:51] <jdh> mine all work fine for a year or so then start failing in really weird ways.
[13:12:39] <archivist> I had a good result using one website but partial failure on another
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[13:20:21] <_methods> i got so sick of that soho router garbage i just went to and old pc with some nics and pfsense
[13:20:36] <_methods> i use ubiquiti wifi ap's for the wireless
[13:22:11] <FinboySlick> _methods: You played with openwrt?
[13:22:41] <FinboySlick> We use it a lot here (ISP).
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[13:37:11] <_methods> yeah i use openwrt too
[13:38:30] <_methods> i use that mainly for projects where i have to reuse soho type routers
[13:39:22] <_methods> i use it on my hame a2 for a wifi avrdude programmer
[13:40:23] <_methods> has the added benefit of being a battery pack too
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[13:47:36] <ssi> morn
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[14:16:28] <JT-Shop> morning
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[14:31:43] <ssi> someone get me this for my birthday
[14:31:43] <ssi> http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/PIPER-TURBO-TWIN-COMANCHE/1967-PIPER-TURBO-TWIN-COMANCHE/1325117.htm
[14:31:46] <ssi> it's next week btw
[14:31:54] <ssi> that's the hottest twinkie in the world I'm pretty sure
[14:34:52] <FinboySlick> ssi: That thing seems to be in very good shape.
[14:35:31] <ssi> it's a miller conversion, which means it has 200hp angle-valve IO360s instead of the regular 150 or 160hp IO320s
[14:35:38] <ssi> AND it's a rayjay turbo conversion, turbonormalized
[14:35:44] <ssi> and it has every speed mod in existence
[14:35:50] <ssi> plus nice modern avionics
[14:36:01] <ssi> that's the ULTIMATE TWINKIE
[14:36:34] <FinboySlick> All things considered, it's not that expensive either, right?
[14:36:39] <ssi> right!
[14:36:55] <FinboySlick> Quadruple mortgage and you're all set!
[14:36:56] <ssi> most regular twinkies go for about $50-65k, turbo twinkies go for around $80k
[14:37:03] <ssi> this one is a bit more, but it's not unreasonable at all
[14:37:11] <ssi> engine times are kinda high
[14:37:15] <ssi> that right engine is about ready for overhaul
[14:37:58] <FinboySlick> Both engines aren't exactly the same?
[14:38:03] <ssi> nope
[14:38:07] <ssi> it's rare to overhaul them together
[14:38:10] <ssi> too damn expensive :D
[14:38:28] <FinboySlick> I mean the same model. C1C and CF.
[14:38:36] <ssi> oh, yeah I noticed that too
[14:38:54] <ssi> I've never actually heard of a -CF model, I think that might be a typo
[14:39:25] <ssi> searching for IO360-CF only comes up with an ad for that airplane hahah
[14:40:31] <ssi> no pictures of the interior, I bet it's shitty
[14:41:44] <FinboySlick> "Spent the last 3 months transporting ebola patients."
[14:42:11] <ssi> :D
[14:42:23] <ssi> the plane that they used to move ebola patients is based not far from me actually
[14:42:27] <ssi> I'm very familiar with that operation
[14:42:30] <ssi> Phoenix Air
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[14:42:35] <ssi> up at cartersville, KVPC
[14:43:11] <ssi> http://phoenixair.com/ambulance.html
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[14:57:12] * JT-Shop ain't buying a $85 drill bit to tap 16 7/16-20 holes in 1215
[14:57:37] <JT-Shop> I like OSG taps but their drills are high dollar
[14:58:18] <zeeshan|2> lol
[15:00:15] * JT-Shop finally got enough shit together to fire off the furnace and melt some metal yesterday
[15:00:26] <zeeshan|2> what type of metal
[15:01:17] <JT-Shop> lead
[15:01:32] <JT-Shop> figured I'd start with cannon balls and ingots
[15:01:39] <JT-Shop> with some easy stuff to melt
[15:02:15] <JT-Shop> learned a few things so it was good
[15:03:16] <zeeshan|2> nice
[15:03:23] <zeeshan|2> can you melt stainless in it?
[15:04:58] <JT-Shop> no, up to brass only
[15:05:46] <JT-Shop> this one only has 2600F refractory
[15:05:55] <zeeshan|2> that is pretty sweet
[15:14:55] <malcom2073> What are you using the metal for?
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[15:30:00] <SpeedEvil> I'm pondering kilns too.
[15:30:09] <SpeedEvil> Though only up to ~1100C or so at teh mment - for glass
[15:31:29] <JT-Shop> for fun
[15:32:35] <malcom2073> I'm pondering a cheap diy foundry just because I need more projects that are capable of hurting/killing me.
[15:33:07] <JT-Shop> mine was cheap diy
[15:33:10] <malcom2073> I have cheap natural gas and access to tons of scrap metal via a local metalworking group
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[15:34:56] <malcom2073> As I'm working on my mill, I keep coming up with projects that would require purchase of larger blocks of metal, and then cutting them fairly far down
[15:35:11] <malcom2073> And thinking... I could probably cast the rough shape....
[15:35:15] <LenR> Ha.... I read "I'm working on my will"....
[15:35:19] <malcom2073> Haha
[15:35:21] <malcom2073> That too
[15:35:31] <malcom2073> Talking about figuring out how to do a foundry :)
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[15:36:39] <malcom2073> Didn't think it was THAT scary of a topic...
[15:37:31] <zeeshan|2> the problem with casting in a typical home foundry to make a billet is
[15:37:45] <zeeshan|2> especially aluminum for example -- you'll always have porosity
[15:38:19] <zeeshan|2> so cast aluminum for example is a lot weaker than say 6061 that has been extruded
[15:38:42] <zeeshan|2> so purchasing an extruded chunk makes more sense for structural components
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[15:48:56] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan|2: I'm wondering about a sealed furnaace.
[15:49:16] <SpeedEvil> Actually hermetically sealed, filled with xenon first
[15:49:17] <SpeedEvil> err
[15:49:21] <SpeedEvil> argon
[15:49:24] <zeeshan|2> argon purging
[15:49:30] <zeeshan|2> very common for aluminum
[15:49:43] <SpeedEvil> I would like a cylinder of xenon
[15:49:51] <zeeshan|2> you like inject it from the bottom of the mold
[15:49:54] <SpeedEvil> As then I could sell it and buy stuff :)
[15:50:03] <malcom2073> Yeah, I'm not doing anything structural fortunatly
[15:50:09] <zeeshan|2> so it carries inclusions and gas bubbles up with it
[15:50:28] <zeeshan|2> but even the best casting will still be weaker than an extruded piece
[15:50:35] <zeeshan|2> its just like casting vs forging
[15:51:01] <SpeedEvil> Well - it depends
[15:51:13] <SpeedEvil> 'steel is stiffer than wood'
[15:51:27] <SpeedEvil> - but if you use a 2.5* as thick bit of wood - that's no longer true
[15:51:38] <SpeedEvil> same with casting if you use shapes that can't be extruded
[15:51:57] <zeeshan|2> changing the geomtry is cheating! :P
[15:52:10] <malcom2073> lol
[15:52:49] <zeeshan|2> i hope i don't make a fool of myself by sending this to a professor i'm discussing polymers with
[15:52:50] <zeeshan|2> "To make sure I am understanding this right -- Regular polymers flow(become viscous) at their melting temperature similar to metals, while our TPU SMP is a special case because of it's internal molecular structure composing of hard and soft segments. The soft segments melt and allow for mobility of the polymer chains therefore allowing the SMP to be viscous. Where this flow occurs happens to be cl
[15:52:58] <zeeshan|2> close to Tg because that is where the soft segment melts?
[15:53:34] <zeeshan|2> goddamn polymers! :{
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[17:14:22] <ssi> XXCoder: around?
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[17:35:30] <_methods> http://kingpenguin.itch.io/pacapong
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[17:45:54] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150409-autodesk-backs-carbon3ds-clip-technology-spark-3d-printing-investment-fund.html
[17:46:27] <CaptHindsight> $10M in new investment after 3 other co's show how it works and does not require any special magic
[17:47:03] <CaptHindsight> I have the wrong customers
[17:47:08] <_methods> it still just makes a sad little plastic trinket
[17:47:20] <ssi> lol
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[17:53:16] <CaptHindsight> you can make real parts similar to injection molding but they also have demos of SAMO
[17:55:17] <CaptHindsight> whats interesting is that their patent is on a design using a ~$1/gram silicone film that's not even needed
[17:55:33] <CaptHindsight> and their investors still jumped on it
[17:59:50] <PetefromTn_> I think that's my problem too...
[18:00:05] <CaptHindsight> http://3dprintingindustry.com/2015/04/08/bo-pangs-continuous-dlp-technology-taking-ultrafast-3d-printing-masses/
[18:00:42] <CaptHindsight> andypugh wrote a patch for Linuxcnc to control a friends printer that does the same thing
[18:01:59] <CaptHindsight> there's already a Chinese version http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150331-chinese-company-prism3d-unveils-super-fast-sla-3d-printer.html
[18:02:14] <PetefromTn_> wow a teeny tiny eiffel tower...made of plastic?
[18:02:42] <CaptHindsight> and one in NZ http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150325-new-gizmo-3ds-super-fast-dlp-3d-printer-creates-objects-in-6-minutes.html
[18:03:30] <CaptHindsight> so it's who you know vs the tech
[18:07:21] <XXCoder> ssi: yo
[18:07:33] <ssi> XXCoder: I got my shipment of soylent 1.4 yesterday
[18:07:37] <ssi> it's not bad!
[18:07:43] <ssi> tastes like pancake batter
[18:07:49] <XXCoder> nice, glad you like it
[18:07:57] <ssi> I'm having one of the spaceman ones for lunch today
[18:08:05] <ssi> and I'm offput by the seediness I decided
[18:08:11] <XXCoder> amount of water do affect it, if you feel its bit too dense just add more water and other way
[18:08:14] <ssi> I have a schmoylent sampler coming soon too
[18:08:14] <XXCoder> *or
[18:08:36] <XXCoder> try hot choculate powder added
[18:08:40] <ssi> yeah
[18:08:42] <XXCoder> or cocoa'
[18:08:54] <XXCoder> milk choc do work but not as effective
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[19:39:50] * furrywolf likes that weird stuff called "food"
[19:40:49] <XXCoder> hipser
[19:40:52] <XXCoder> heh jk
[19:42:36] <furrywolf> preferably of the indian variety, but it's hard to find many places.
[19:42:58] <XXCoder> heh I live right next to one
[19:43:12] <XXCoder> havent went there for a bit though. HMMM
[19:45:41] <malcom2073> Ran across an interesting piece, not metal, but I want to build a metal one someday: http://mikesshop.net/steamengine/DSCN1987.JPG
[19:46:48] <_methods> cool
[19:47:02] <malcom2073> yeah, runs on vaccume
[19:47:06] <XXCoder> is it steam or stiring
[19:47:08] <XXCoder> oh
[19:47:23] <malcom2073> It's wooden with nylon cylinders, probably wouldn't hold up too well to steam heh
[19:47:50] <furrywolf> is it double-expansion? the rear cylinder looks larger, but it could just be an illusion.
[19:47:56] <XXCoder> http://mikesshop.net/steamengine/DSCN1991.JPG
[19:48:03] <malcom2073> The rear cylinder is the cylinder, the front is the valve
[19:48:28] <furrywolf> or is the front just a slide valve built to look like it matches the cylinder?
[19:48:29] <furrywolf> ah
[19:48:33] <malcom2073> Yeah
[19:49:11] <XXCoder> malcom2073: is that site yours?
[19:49:21] <malcom2073> XXCoder: yes
[19:49:33] <XXCoder> so youre designing a router. interesting one
[19:49:34] <furrywolf> I'll probably build a steam engine one of these days... using off-the-shelf solenoid valves and a small uC. yay easily programmable cutoff etc.
[19:49:52] <malcom2073> I was designing a router, then a CNC mill dropped in my lap (not literally, ouch), so the router is kinda on permanent hold
[19:50:08] <malcom2073> I like the pure mechanical approach, be cool to write a simple control system though
[19:50:25] <furrywolf> I like minimal effort, and building valves doesn't count. :P
[19:51:14] <andypugh> furrywolf: Interesting idea. I was thinking about trying something like that for a Robotwars robot. A 100% modern steam engine.
[19:51:19] <furrywolf> probably use two off-the-shelf double-acting air cylinders, for easy starting in any position.
[19:51:33] <XXCoder> malcom2073: I do want to build a stirling engine though
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[19:51:58] <malcom2073> Sterling engines are a bit too margin-space for me. You have to be fairly precise with everything to make it work because you're working with very low energy
[19:52:00] <furrywolf> andypugh: a team on scrapheap challange built a paddlewheel steamer using scrap parts and solenoid valves, so it's definitely doable. they lost, but it was due to failures not inherent in the design.
[19:52:07] <malcom2073> steam, there's a ton of it, so if you're inefficienct in design, who cares? :P
[19:52:22] <XXCoder> malcom2073: true but I just wanna build one for kicks really.
[19:52:30] <XXCoder> also, I want to try liquidify air
[19:52:31] <malcom2073> Be a pretty cool project
[19:52:34] <XXCoder> try that with steam lol
[19:52:43] <andypugh> Solenoids that like superheated steam might be harder to source.
[19:52:47] <furrywolf> I have a design for a stirling engine with the hot end remote-mounted from the cold end, coaxial shafts, and other fun stuff... need to build one one of these days and see if it actually works in practice like it works in my head.
[19:53:03] <furrywolf> XXCoder: liquifying steam is really easy. :P
[19:53:03] <XXCoder> nice
[19:53:04] <malcom2073> Heh
[19:53:08] <XXCoder> furrywolf: lol
[19:53:27] <malcom2073> You're gonna laugh at this, but my end goal is a woodgas powered steam engine system
[19:53:39] <malcom2073> I'm gonna teach myself machining and design to get there
[19:53:51] <malcom2073> Make lots of mistakes, etc etc
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[19:54:14] <XXCoder> malcom2073: check this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73txXT21aZU
[19:54:27] <malcom2073> I've seen that XXCoder, glass workers are... amazing
[19:54:32] <XXCoder> indeed
[19:55:22] <malcom2073> So what would I use to lubricate wood/nylon bearings?
[19:55:24] <malcom2073> Graphite?
[19:55:37] <XXCoder> maybe?
[19:55:41] <malcom2073> Or just ensure both are super smooth?
[19:55:54] <XXCoder> try without then with graphite?
[19:56:16] <andypugh> Use lignum vitae as the wood.
[19:56:25] <malcom2073> I'm gonna take the engine apart tonight or tomorrow, see if I can figure out why it's got so much friction
[19:58:17] <furrywolf> woodgas powered steam engine, as opposed to, say, wood powered steam engine, or wood gas powered non-steam engine? as in, extra complexity and inefficiency for the hell of it? :)
[19:58:25] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Yep!
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[19:59:32] <SpeedEvil> The wood-gas powered chainsaw is amusing
[19:59:46] <XXCoder> SpeedEvil: make it sawdust powered and im sold
[19:59:59] <malcom2073> There's too much hype, I'm curious to see what happens
[20:00:17] <furrywolf> I wouldn't think wood and nylon are a good bearing pair.
[20:00:24] <XXCoder> furrywolf: wood powered wood steam engine ;)
[20:00:25] <SpeedEvil> I have wondered if the thermowod process extracts burnable stuff.
[20:00:29] <SpeedEvil> I suspect it does
[20:00:42] <SpeedEvil> That is - heating the wood at 250C under no oxygen
[20:00:49] <malcom2073> SpeedEvil: That's what I want to find out
[20:01:07] <furrywolf> of course it does. pyrolysis is rather well documented.
[20:01:21] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: yes - I sort-of-mean how well
[20:02:17] <furrywolf> well.
[20:02:37] <furrywolf> wood doesn't burn. the gas produced from pyrolysing wood burns.
[20:05:17] <furrywolf> you can get an easy demo by putting a tin can with some wood chips in it on the stove, and lighting the gas that comes off...
[20:05:32] <SpeedEvil> www.google.com/patents/EP0695408A1?cl=en - the process in question - stabilising wood by removing volatiles
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[20:07:22] <SpeedEvil> and then they are kept in moist atmosphere at a temperature of at least about 150 °C for typically 2 to 10 hours until a weight loss of at least 3 % has been obtained.
[20:07:30] <SpeedEvil> Actually - I guess 3% isn't much
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[20:11:13] <JT-Shop> any suggestions on milling the T-slot in this part? http://ibin.co/1xlwoSGth4vP
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[20:14:21] <JT-Shop> I can get a 1" OD straight tooth cutter with a 1/2" shank and various cutter widths that would reach
[20:15:03] <JT-Shop> the drawing doesn't show the two flats that are on the OD
[20:16:48] -!- SolarNRG [SolarNRG!~SolarNRG@213.207.181.14] has joined #linuxcnc
[20:16:54] <SolarNRG> hi guys
[20:16:59] <SolarNRG> I need some advice
[20:18:51] <SolarNRG> today I made my first successful "bearing sandwich"
[20:18:52] <SolarNRG> http://i.imgur.com/qaG5ZVG.jpg
[20:19:09] <SolarNRG> here it is disassembled: http://i.imgur.com/60JlfYc.jpg
[20:19:28] <SolarNRG> I managed to make this out of 8mm steel and some appropriate hole saws on a domestic drill press a tonne of oil
[20:20:24] <SolarNRG> The skateboard bearing I used was 22mm in diameter and the ONLY holesaw of exactly the right diameter for it was a tungsten carbide holesaw intended for ceramics, it made a hellvualotta steam and smoke and didn't so much CUT the steel, rather GRINDED the steel but I did it.
[20:20:57] <SolarNRG> The purpose is I want something that will hold my bearings in place for the acme thread to rotate nice and smooth in for my CNC machine I am building
[20:21:18] <SolarNRG> Now I'm having problems upscaling it: http://i.imgur.com/dXbR3R7.jpg
[20:21:45] <SolarNRG> The middle plate there you see is 64mm in diamere and the bearings are 62mm in diameter, WHY DON'T THEY SELL 62MM HOLE SAWS?
[20:22:40] <SolarNRG> They exist on the internet but the shops don't sell them
[20:23:44] <SolarNRG> Also thanks for the advice about cutting off 90% of the teeth of holesaws, helped loads :D
[20:24:00] <SolarNRG> But I did one holesaw wrong, had the teeth on opposite sides off center kinda and it wobbled like hell
[20:33:45] <andypugh> SolarNRG: You need a lathe.
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[20:34:24] <andypugh> JT-Shop: I would think you will need several passes with a T-slot cutter that is smaller than those dimensions.
[20:36:19] <SolarNRG> is the only way to get a lathe to buy one off the internet these days?
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[20:37:15] <SolarNRG> Owning my own lathe would be sweeet
[20:37:27] <SolarNRG> You think I should scrap the CNC project and work on a lathe first?
[20:37:39] <SolarNRG> Cos I've been making bits and bobs for a non working machine now for 2 years
[20:38:23] <JT-Shop> andypugh, that's what I'm thinking several passes
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[20:38:57] <JT-Shop> would you get 3/8" wide or 3/16" wide and make more passes?
[20:39:46] <andypugh> I would get the biggest and strongest I could find. But how hard you can cut might depend on how well you can hold the part.
[20:40:11] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, start with a regular endmill then a slot cutter
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[20:40:34] <Tom_itx> that's only about .2 per side with the slot cutter
[20:41:03] <JT-Shop> right, would you use a straight tooth slot cutter they cost a lot less
[20:41:17] <Tom_itx> maybe a rough pass per side and a cleanup pass per side if you need it
[20:41:21] <Tom_itx> just cut slow
[20:41:29] <Tom_itx> yup
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[20:41:44] <JT-Shop> I've done a couple by hand on the BP and I cut real slow
[20:41:45] <andypugh> I have very little experience with T-slot cutters.
[20:41:48] <Tom_itx> just mill the main part normally
[20:41:53] <JT-Shop> right
[20:42:06] <Tom_itx> pretty straightforwared really
[20:42:37] <Tom_itx> you might want to hold it in some round cut softjaws
[20:42:44] <Tom_itx> for better grip
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[20:43:04] <Tom_itx> which side are the OD flats on?
[20:43:06] <JT-Shop> there are two flats not shown on the photo
[20:43:15] <Tom_itx> parallel to the slot?
[20:43:17] <JT-Shop> on the threaded end
[20:43:21] <JT-Shop> yea
[20:43:22] <Tom_itx> that would work
[20:43:50] <JT-Shop> they are 1/2" deep flats
[20:44:06] <Tom_itx> depending how thick your cutter is a couple passes per side should do
[20:44:33] <JT-Shop> I'm thinking of getting the 1/4" wide cutter
[20:44:39] <Tom_itx> unless you can find a .406 wide cutter
[20:44:54] <Tom_itx> or .375
[20:45:30] <JT-Shop> I can get a 3/8" but it is still two passes per side and much bigger load on the first pass
[20:45:36] <Tom_itx> the problem will be finding one that will have clearance of the shaft for the .22" slot
[20:46:16] <Tom_itx> check that dimension before you purchase it
[20:46:20] <JT-Shop> 1" OD with 1/2" shank
[20:46:42] <Tom_itx> that's .25" per side
[20:46:44] <JT-Shop> the .810 width is +-0.30"
[20:46:57] <JT-Shop> 0.030
[20:47:07] <Tom_itx> so you have .030" left for clearance
[20:47:13] <JT-Shop> yea
[20:48:02] <Tom_itx> i've got a small one around here somewhere i've never used yet
[20:48:10] <Tom_itx> maybe it was for dovetails...
[20:48:12] <Tom_itx> i forget
[20:48:26] <JT-Shop> I have a few but they are all too small or too big lol
[20:48:34] <Tom_itx> yeah
[20:49:01] <Tom_itx> we used slitting saws on several parts
[20:49:32] <JT-Shop> I have a bunch of them but they are all too big
[20:49:45] <Tom_itx> those wouldn't work for this...
[20:51:16] <Tom_itx> what material is it?
[20:51:18] <Tom_itx> steel?
[20:51:33] <Tom_itx> oh.. 1018
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[20:53:20] <Tom_L> http://www.travers.com/t-slot-milling-cutters?Category=UserSearch=slot%20cutter||UserSearch=block%20id%2043155%20and%20class%20level3%20id%20297789
[20:53:29] <Tom_L> those have an undercut shank
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[20:54:27] <fthc> Hellow !
[20:55:08] <fthc> I've got a precision mill, and I'ld like to turn it into a cnc
[20:55:24] <fthc> wondering what's the best way to go about it
[20:55:34] <Tom_L> manual?
[20:55:38] <fthc> yeah
[20:55:46] <Tom_L> decide if you're gonna use steppers or servos
[20:55:53] <Tom_L> figure the force required
[20:56:23] <Tom_L> either way i'd go with mesa electronics
[20:56:36] <Tom_L> and whatever drivers you need for the motors
[20:56:48] <Tom_L> i used geckos on mine
[20:56:51] <fthc> would this work with linuxcnc ? http://www.adafruit.com/products/2348
[20:57:27] <Tom_L> you're gonna want something alot beefier than that
[20:57:33] <fthc> okay
[20:57:36] <Tom_L> how big is the mill?
[20:57:50] <fthc> it's a small precision mill
[20:58:14] <fthc> brb, gonna look for the name
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[20:59:35] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:02:31] <fthc> it's an emco unimat 3
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[21:04:40] <fthc> looks like that http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/Zim83m.jpg
[21:05:06] <Tom_L> is that you?
[21:05:13] <fthc> nah
[21:05:22] <fthc> I'm 23
[21:05:46] <fthc> but it's something I'ld like to do for my dad, which looks a bit like him
[21:05:48] <_methods> lol
[21:05:57] <Tom_L> nema23 steppers would be big enough
[21:05:57] <fthc> so there's that
[21:06:18] <SolarNRG> there's a range of 23's and range of powers
[21:06:43] <Tom_L> my sherline is about that size
[21:07:18] <Tom_L> that's more lathe like than mill though
[21:07:30] <fthc> maybe
[21:08:01] <fthc> not a native speaker, wasn't sure about the name
[21:09:30] <XXCoder> oh brother https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/weiner/the-gentlemans-single-use-monocle
[21:09:36] <XXCoder> from smbc
[21:10:18] -!- Valen [Valen!~Valen@c211-30-128-202.blktn6.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #linuxcnc
[21:11:39] <andypugh> XXCoder: That’s quite funny.
[21:11:48] <XXCoder> yeah
[21:11:57] <XXCoder> andypugh: its from one of funnest smbc comic
[21:12:15] <andypugh> fthc: If you want to use the RPi then you would need to use Machinekit rather than LinuxCNC. (A related project)
[21:12:17] <XXCoder> http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2255
[21:12:51] <Tom_L> fthc, http://foro.metalaficion.com/index.php?topic=5448.0
[21:12:53] <Tom_L> not english
[21:13:24] <fthc> will take a look at machinekit
[21:13:27] <Tom_L> those steppers look pretty small
[21:13:41] <andypugh> I don’t know how well the RPi2 works with LinuxCNC, though as RPi1 was nearly usable, RPI2 might be OK.
[21:13:55] <Tom_L> what about bbb?
[21:14:18] <Tom_L> fthc, look at that conversion i linked
[21:14:24] <andypugh> BBB and one of the dedicated stepper Capes is probably a better and better-supported option than Pi
[21:14:30] <XXCoder> andypugh: wow that would be funny if it was really discovered that way. http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3668
[21:14:33] <fthc> yeah i'm looking
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[21:16:29] <fthc> thanks
[21:17:41] <Tom_L> http://datab.us/Search/Popular%2BUnimat%2Band%2BMetal%2Blathe%2Bvideos%2BPlayListIDPLuZwZ0DcjnEgjTyJWXHn5uosnmDqyYol0
[21:18:32] <Tom_L> http://datab.us/sjFb13KykmE#Unimat%20SL%20lathe%20and%20CNC%20-%20lathe%20homing%20sequence%20with%20LinuxCNC.
[21:18:39] <fthc> okay I get the confusion between lathe and mill
[21:18:42] <fthc> ours is both
[21:19:46] * furrywolf is still trying to find something to download
[21:19:59] <furrywolf> I thought I'd get some random history channel shows, but seems no one bothers capping those.
[21:20:10] -!- r0ute has quit [Ping timeout: 250 seconds]
[21:20:20] <Lowridah> it's all deplorable anymore
[21:20:33] <Lowridah> it's all ghost hunting and top 10 shows
[21:20:49] <furrywolf> last one I tried finding is "Inspector America"... some guy who goes and inspects bridges apparantly. seemed less likely to be scripted bullshit than most of them.
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[21:25:03] <fthc> hmm
[21:25:46] <fthc> I'm on a satellite connection, having a hard time loading the links :x
[21:25:58] <furrywolf> it's very annoying how something that might actually be interesting is impossible to find, while utterly stupid stuff is easy.
[21:26:08] <furrywolf> fthc: that shouldn't make most links hard to load.
[21:26:22] <fthc> It's extremely slow
[21:26:43] <furrywolf> that site, however, seems to be shit.
[21:27:13] <furrywolf> yes. I used to install satellite internet systems. unless you're using globalstar at 9600bps, it's not slow enough normal websites should have problems. :)
[21:27:22] <fthc> how would I go about finding the force needed for the motors? just trying fferent ones?
[21:27:46] <furrywolf> "datab.us" seems to be a shit website, however.
[21:27:52] <fthc> I should have a 20mbps connection
[21:28:02] <Lowridah> measure the effective torque you need to move what you're trying to move and buy a motor based on that?
[21:33:06] <furrywolf> fthc: try testmy.net if you want to know what your actual connection speed is.
[21:33:24] <furrywolf> note that it is generally well under what is advertised, but below 1/5th of that suggests your installation has an issue.
[21:33:35] <fthc> not the installation
[21:33:37] <fthc> the provider
[21:34:30] <furrywolf> most providers manage >20% of their advertised speed, much of the time at least. who do you have?
[21:34:30] <fthc> between eight and midnight, they huuh
[21:34:36] <fthc> bottleneck?
[21:34:53] <fthc> not sure of the word
[21:35:10] <fthc> I use Skydsl, which buys it's data from tooway
[21:35:22] <furrywolf> not familiar with them, sorry.
[21:36:02] <furrywolf> could be congestion (too many people using it), could be you have a misaimed dish or weak upstream...
[21:36:13] <fthc> nah
[21:36:43] <fthc> they just reduce the speed on "rush hours" so they dont have to pay more to tooway
[21:37:01] <furrywolf> tooway doesn't seem to cover any part of this continent, which explains why I've never heard of them. :)
[21:37:29] <fthc> ahah yeah, I'm in belgium
[21:37:50] <furrywolf> None of the providers I'm aware of intentionally limit speeds, but they do all oversell their service by a quite large margin.
[21:39:01] <fthc> http://www.speedtest.net/result/4277934273.png
[21:39:06] <fthc> :(
[21:39:17] <furrywolf> they only stop selling when the number of users getting pissed off and leaving exceeds how fast they can sign new people up to it. :P
[21:39:29] <fthc> wish I could go back to a landline
[21:39:43] <fthc> but there's not land on a boat
[21:39:54] <furrywolf> heh, that's about what my speeds are. stop bitching. :P
[21:40:07] <furrywolf> (3g cell modem with a weak signal to an overloaded tower)
[21:40:18] <furrywolf> you have better upstream than I do. :)
[21:40:52] <fthc> It's better than usual at this hour
[21:41:14] <fthc> 4G coverage is really good here, but I can't use that on a daily basis
[21:42:04] <fthc> the cheapest is 15€ for 2Go
[21:42:15] <furrywolf> I have a choice of 3g or sat... 3g is it, but barely. main reason I'm sticking with 3g is that other than prime-time, as long as I don't attempt to use the connection for anything else, I get 200ms pings... trying to ssh with 1000ms pings of sat is just plain annoying.
[21:42:22] <fthc> And i go trough that in a day or two
[21:42:49] <fthc> yeah, ssh is a pain :(
[21:44:08] <SolarNRG> why is satellite so laggy?
[21:44:26] <fthc> cause you gotta reach space and back
[21:44:34] <SolarNRG> speed of light surely
[21:44:43] <SolarNRG> fewer relays
[21:44:49] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: speed of light and upload slot scheduling.
[21:45:02] <SolarNRG> ahh
[21:45:06] <fthc> 1sec lag is actually pretty amazing if you think about it
[21:45:34] <furrywolf> 26,200 miles, each way, for the speed of light part of it.
[21:45:39] <SolarNRG> its quicker than walking and telling you in person
[21:46:37] <furrywolf> light is fast, but 52,000 miles still takes 0.3sec or so.
[21:47:42] <furrywolf> you might note 0.3s is less than 1s... now that's where upload slot scheduling comes in. only one user can talk to the satellite at a time, but you might have 50,000 modems turned on.
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[21:48:58] <furrywolf> to transmit a full data packet, the modem has to first request a time slot to transmit in. satellite modems have very, very, very precise clocks, and know their distance from the satellite very, very accurately, as their position on the earth changes how long it takes their packets to arrive.
[21:50:22] <furrywolf> this scheduling process adds a second round-trip for things like a ping... one round-trip to request a slot from the bird, then another round trip to actually send the data to the bird and back to earth. then it gets routed to wherever you're pinging and back, then back up to the bird, then back down to you... for three round trips total.
[21:50:36] <furrywolf> and 3*0.3+0.1(rest of internet) = 1s.
[21:51:41] <furrywolf> some services give 0.6s pings through better upload slot scheduling, and most have tweaks so continuous transfers only request one repeated slot.
[21:54:05] <furrywolf> the two round trips is physics, and impossible to get rid of. all geosynchronous services have >540ms pings.
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[21:55:21] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: have you considered an antenna on your 3G thingy to see if you can hit a less crowded staiton?
[21:55:22] <furrywolf> if you want better than that, you switch from geo to leo... like globalstar. globalstar only gives you 9.6kbps bandwidth, but you get nice low pings.
[21:55:37] <SpeedEvil> Wait for Musk I guess
[21:55:45] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: I have considered it, and determined no such antenna connections are possible without hacking.
[21:55:53] <SolarNRG> I'd have thought pay through the nose for fiber optic get a good low ping connection
[21:56:25] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: nice and low in terms of satellite connections, not absolutes. :P
[21:57:04] <SpeedEvil> Musk reckons he can go fasster than land-lines.
[21:57:19] <SpeedEvil> As there is no factor of 0.6 involved in putting light in wires
[21:57:41] <SolarNRG> I think by the time I'm an old man using a zimmerframe they will have something even less laggy than fiber optic, graphene wire connection or something like that
[21:58:01] <SpeedEvil> 'air' core fibre already exists
[21:58:22] <SolarNRG> singularity computing?
[21:58:35] <SolarNRG> i.e. a fold in spacetime between ppl's computers
[21:58:57] <SolarNRG> TBH I don't see liquid helium in everyone's home
[21:59:00] <roycroft> signals usually travel in fiber optic cables about 0.7c
[21:59:13] <roycroft> in copper cables about 0.8c
[21:59:19] <roycroft> on average
[21:59:20] <SolarNRG> yeah because of the refractivity of the glass core, maybe they'll make a less refractive glass
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[21:59:52] <SolarNRG> interestingly about 20 years ago they slowed light down to walking pace using a rediculously refractive glass
[21:59:53] <andypugh> Reminds me of this that I read today: http://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles
[22:00:01] <furrywolf> how about perfectly straight copper pipes and lots of vacuum pumps? :P
[22:00:25] <roycroft> different wavelengths of light travel at different speeds through a fiber optic cable, though
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[22:01:02] <roycroft> in my long-haul fiber networks the single most expensive components are dispersion compensators
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[22:01:32] <roycroft> i do wave division multiplexing, and the different wavelengths arrive at the next hop at different times, so the light is effectively "smeared"
[22:02:11] <SolarNRG> In theory if you could make a perfect gun barrel between computers and suck all the air out of it and fire lasers into it, that would be very fast
[22:02:19] <furrywolf> how about a dense LEO satellite cloud using line-of-sight laser communications, then beamed as close to vertical as possible to the user? most of your communication will be at very close to c then...
[22:02:21] <roycroft> the dispersion compensators are passive devices with microprisms and many many km of microfibers, one for each frequency, each of a differnt length, that compensates for the smearing by slowing down the fastest wavelengths to the same speed as the slowest
[22:02:27] <SolarNRG> problem is over distance any cylinder will tend to bend
[22:02:49] <andypugh> I had two consecutive research projects. The first was looking at Erbium concentration distribution in optical fibres. The second was investigating Erbium as an alloying element in steel. Purely a conicidence.
[22:03:51] <SolarNRG> erbium!?
[22:04:03] <SolarNRG> what can you tell me about this element?
[22:04:17] <andypugh> Yes. Most people never use it at all, using it twice seems very unlikely.
[22:05:49] <SolarNRG> useful in lasers?
[22:06:00] <andypugh> http://www.opticsinfobase.org/ol/abstract.cfm?uri=ol-17-6-420
[22:06:04] <andypugh> yes
[22:06:06] * furrywolf can never remember the differences between terbium and erbium, or which is which...
[22:06:52] <SolarNRG> does it oxidize and how quicly? like as quick as lithium or slowly like stainless?
[22:07:44] <furrywolf> I know it's something you can poke at in air, so not too quickly.
[22:07:54] <SolarNRG> it burns really hot
[22:08:21] <furrywolf> all metals burn really hot. some are just easier to burn. :P
[22:08:44] <SolarNRG> I weld steel all day long, why won't steel burn?
[22:09:19] <SolarNRG> lithium, aluminium, titanium all burn
[22:09:42] <furrywolf> steel burns great. ever use a cutting torch?
[22:09:46] <SolarNRG> but these are metals I've worked with, erbium however? it's like alien metal to me
[22:09:54] <furrywolf> cutting torches work because steel burns well.
[22:10:03] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Elon musk is planning a ~400km satellite network using ~6000 sats, with beam-forming antennas to patch-antennas mounted on roofs
[22:10:07] <SolarNRG> I've cut through steel using an arc welder cranked right up and an angle grinder, not worked with gas much
[22:10:14] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: ridiculously fast
[22:10:17] <SolarNRG> oh and obviously a hacksaw when I was a kid
[22:10:29] <furrywolf> with a neutral flame, you just melt the steel, it turns red and slowly dribbles... but as soon as you squeeze the handle for some extra oxygen, POOF.
[22:11:05] <SolarNRG> oh yeah, you can get diamond to burn with enough oxygen and fluorine
[22:11:07] <furrywolf> SpeedEvil: that sounds remarkably like my suggestion above of a dense low earth orbit satellite cloud, doesn't it? :P
[22:11:22] <SolarNRG> what I meant was like just in normal atmosphere and pressure just with heat added
[22:11:33] <SolarNRG> I mean I can set an aluminium can on fire with a cigarette lighter
[22:11:42] <furrywolf> finely powdered steel will burn
[22:11:50] <SolarNRG> like thermite
[22:11:58] <furrywolf> no, just in air.
[22:12:19] <SolarNRG> so if I get some grindings from the floor outside and dust it over my jet lighter what will happen?
[22:12:24] <SolarNRG> I bet nothing
[22:13:06] <_methods> you'll make a mess
[22:13:21] <_methods> i win
[22:13:24] <furrywolf> unless they were already oxidized from the heat of the grinding process, you can light them, yes.
[22:13:52] <SolarNRG> yeah true, to be scientific about it, I'd have to use the hacksaw or the file to get the filings
[22:13:58] <furrywolf> you can also light fine-grade steel wool on fire.
[22:14:04] <furrywolf> which is a much easier demo.
[22:14:11] <_methods> sugar
[22:14:20] * furrywolf googles for SolarNRG
[22:14:59] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MDH92VxPEQ claims to show it. (with my connection, it'll be several minutes before I can start watching it)
[22:16:17] <SolarNRG> so just like starting a camp fire them, there has to be a very high surface area to volume ratio before ignition will occur
[22:16:23] <furrywolf> yes
[22:16:38] <furrywolf> and you can start a fire with a piece of steel wool and any available battery. :)
[22:16:46] <SolarNRG> the core of the fire always has to have like some paper with thin twigs all over it and big logs really up high
[22:16:54] * furrywolf once saw a video of someone lighting steel wool on fire with their car's battery
[22:17:10] <SolarNRG> how about a 9v battery?
[22:17:52] <furrywolf> yes
[22:18:02] <furrywolf> I bet I can find a video of that too. :P
[22:18:31] <furrywolf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbwNJhJwnSs "Survival- Starting a Fire with Steel Wool & 9V Battery!"
[22:18:33] <SolarNRG> woah, I never realised that thing I scrub the shite out the chicken pan with was so dangerous!
[22:18:46] <furrywolf> any more doubts about the flammability of iron? :P
[22:19:08] <SolarNRG> so I'm not gonna die melting thick plate steel though am I?
[22:19:38] <furrywolf> not unless you drop the cut-off section on your foot, amputate it, and die of blood loss. or sit down on the other half and burn yourself.
[22:20:03] <SolarNRG> I welded this today, it's gonna be the linear bearing for my cnc machine: http://imgur.com/qaG5ZVG,dXbR3R7,60JlfYc,OMbF3HC,38dOWc6#3
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[22:20:59] <SolarNRG> furrywolf, yeah I think I'm like 1000x more likely to die using the angle grinder than the welder
[22:21:41] <SolarNRG> I think the real risk is accidental blindness if I leave hte machine on but the stickwelder topples over with a rod in it and it touches the table by accident with my welding hat off
[22:22:00] <furrywolf> a brief welder arc flash won't cause blindness.
[22:22:50] <SolarNRG> what's the real advantage of upgrading to MIG from arc?
[22:23:11] <furrywolf> not needing to change rods or manually control arc length
[22:23:25] <furrywolf> and cleaner welds due to use of shielding gas instead of flux
[22:23:39] <SolarNRG> so no hammering off slag and scraping with the steel wire brush?
[22:23:55] <SolarNRG> Oh that reminds me, if I get weld on the steel wire brush will that catch fire like the steel wool did?
[22:24:16] <furrywolf> no, it's too coarse
[22:24:21] <furrywolf> has to be really fine
[22:25:25] <SolarNRG> Well anything I can do to reduce the risks of accidental fire
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[22:26:57] <furrywolf> yes, there's lots of things you can do. you can go live in a metal bathtub floating on the lake.
[22:27:13] <SolarNRG> How about a metal shed but I dig a moat around it?
[22:27:20] <_methods> water burns too though
[22:27:46] <SolarNRG> water burns!? surely only if it's separated into browns gas
[22:27:58] <SolarNRG> or does steam burn?
[22:28:16] <furrywolf> hrmm, what's the fluoride gas compound that makes concrete, dirt, etc burn?
[22:28:41] <fthc> what's the biggest cnc machine you ever worked on?
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[22:29:20] <_methods> viper with 48"x96" bed
[22:29:35] <SolarNRG> how deep?
[22:29:38] <_methods> i used to wait till someone got inside it and turn on the flood coolant
[22:29:40] <SolarNRG> could it mill?
[22:29:42] <_methods> haha
[22:29:59] <_methods> machine shop trollin
[22:30:15] <_methods> 50% chance of coolant showers
[22:30:20] <fthc> my dad used to work on a precivit 3 for the army
[22:30:32] <fthc> it's a 200tons monster
[22:30:53] <_methods> yeah that sounds bigger than the viper
[22:31:11] <SolarNRG> what the hell was that thing making tank barrels?
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[22:31:21] <fthc> yeah
[22:31:30] <SolarNRG> we talking one big ass cnc lathe then
[22:31:43] <SolarNRG> inconel boring machine
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[22:32:15] <fthc> http://www.pegard.com/images/product_precivit_3.jpg
[22:32:30] <furrywolf> Chlorine trifluoride!
[22:32:43] <furrywolf> just the name tells you much about its oxidizing abilities.
[22:32:50] <SolarNRG> that thing is HUGE
[22:33:30] <furrywolf> ""It is, of course, extremely toxic, but that's the least of the problem. It is hypergolic with every known fuel, and so rapidly hypergolic that no ignition delay has ever been measured. It is also hypergolic with such things as cloth, wood, and test engineers, not to mention asbestos, sand, and water — with which it reacts explosively."
[22:33:50] * furrywolf rather liked that book
[22:34:04] <andypugh> furrywolf: FOOF
[22:34:06] <fthc> how the hell do you contain that?
[22:34:15] <SolarNRG> magnetic field?
[22:34:19] <SolarNRG> in a vacuum?
[22:34:49] <furrywolf> fthc: some metals. it forms a passivated layer if very carefully introduced. if that layer is damaged, then it catches its own plumbing on fire.
[22:35:08] <furrywolf> from the same book: "If, however, this coat is melted or scrubbed off, and has no chance to reform, the operator is confronted with the problem of coping with a metal-fluorine fire. For dealing with this situation, I have always recommended a good pair of running shoes."\
[22:35:41] <fthc> what's the name of the book?
[22:36:06] <fthc> sounds fun, and I would learn some stuff for once
[22:36:20] <furrywolf> http://library.sciencemadness.org/library/books/ignition.pdf
[22:36:56] <SolarNRG> sounds useful as a spacecraft RCS fuel
[22:37:53] <furrywolf> it has quite a bit of hard science and chemistry in it, but is, as someone said, far more entertaining than such a book has any right to be.
[22:38:18] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: which is why it was investigated for use as a liquid rocket fuel, by some coincidence. :)
[22:38:37] <SolarNRG> woah all that playing of KSP did me some good then :D
[22:38:50] <fthc> can linuxcnc send commands in python?
[22:39:59] <cpresser> fthc: with custom M-Codes you can exectute python
[22:40:28] <furrywolf> a broken cylinder of it ate through a 12" concrete slab floor and 3ft of gravel underneeth it.
[22:40:41] <SolarNRG> ate?
[22:40:49] <SolarNRG> it ate concrete?
[22:41:01] <furrywolf> oxidized and turned into gaseous products.
[22:41:03] <furrywolf> and gravel
[22:41:31] <SolarNRG> this stuff could really make the jackhammer obsolete
[22:41:55] <furrywolf> it could make the jackhammer vanish, yes. literally, even.
[22:42:27] <fthc> you can reuse the jackhammer tough
[22:42:46] <SolarNRG> until your shoulder starts killing
[22:42:58] <SolarNRG> Been digging up the garden for my new CNC shed
[22:43:07] <fthc> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDD_aiO8MDY this is my dad's machine with nema17
[22:43:08] <SolarNRG> had a load of big boulders underground
[22:43:18] <fthc> seems to work fine
[22:43:45] <SolarNRG> I'm trying to do one with nema 23's
[22:43:49] <fthc> so the raspberry pi board might be enough
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[22:44:09] <furrywolf> it was tested, and did indeed make a most excellent oxidizer for a rocket... except it's too stupidly dangerous to handle, and burns so hot it takes the nozzle with it.
[22:45:00] <SolarNRG> rasp-pi however uses ARM architecture so it isn't exactly "bare metal" i.e. you can't talk directly to the chip like you can with arduino, pic or eeproms
[22:45:09] <fthc> and they're relatively cheap http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-5-Stepper-motors-NEMA-17-DIY-CNC-ROUTER-MILL-ROBOT-REPRAP-MAKERBOT-Prusa-/111005363513
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[22:46:05] <SolarNRG> yeah I got some steppers, flipping useless without the power supply, controller, flexible, thread, bearings, bearing assebly, rails, linear bearings, frame
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[22:46:50] <fthc> well the machine is already assembled
[22:47:12] <fthc> just have to find a way to put gears on the mill and on the motors
[22:47:51] <SolarNRG> got a drill press, sheet steel, set square, scribe, cutting fluid, angle grinder?
[22:48:15] <fthc> might
[22:48:41] <fthc> my dad works at the army's "factory"
[22:49:05] <fthc> should have everything we need
[22:49:59] <SolarNRG> well it's all good and well telling him off for taking money for building killing machines, but if it wasn't him it'd be someone else and you wouldn't have food on the table and if your country wasn't making killing machines some other country would be making them to kill you and your family instead, as much as we all hate war we can't trust our neighbours not to kill us so we have to balance the power
[22:50:44] <SolarNRG> Anyway, I'm surprised the army isn't just importing from china these days
[22:51:56] <SolarNRG> actually that would really suck because then your dad would be out of a job
[22:52:03] <fthc> belgium is a really small country but we still make most of our army stuff
[22:52:28] <fthc> the P90 gun is made like 10min away from here
[22:52:35] <SolarNRG> mozabique still makes bows and arrows but what good is it against modern weapons?
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[22:53:10] <fthc> how do you call the place where you put the cargo in a boat?
[22:53:17] <SolarNRG> the hold
[22:53:27] <fthc> allright
[22:53:38] <fthc> well we've got a hold full of tools
[22:54:28] <fthc> all I need to find is what I need to put between the motors and the computer
[22:54:53] <SolarNRG> the head bone's connected to the neck bone...
[22:55:01] <SolarNRG> the comptuer's connected to the parallel port
[22:55:02] <fthc> :D
[22:55:09] <SolarNRG> the parallel port's connected to the gecko drive
[22:55:15] <SolarNRG> the gecko drive's connected to the stepper motor
[22:55:22] <SolarNRG> the stepper motor's connected to the flexible
[22:55:28] <SolarNRG> The flexible's connected to the acme thread
[22:55:37] <SolarNRG> the acme thread's connected to the big bolt
[22:55:57] <SolarNRG> The big bolt's connected to the tray
[22:56:02] <fthc> computers still have parallel ports?
[22:56:06] <SolarNRG> the trays connected to the linear bearingings
[22:56:30] <SolarNRG> nowadays you either gotta do it one of several ways, parallel port PCI-E card, USB to the arduino, arduino to the gecko
[22:56:48] <SolarNRG> or you get a mobo with a parallel port, they still make them on server models
[22:57:04] <SolarNRG> My gaming PC has phased out parallel port design
[22:58:14] <fthc> hmm
[22:59:30] <SolarNRG> I heard belgium is well easy to pick up a gun, but the belgians are far to lazy to shoot each other with them
[22:59:33] <fthc> What's the cheapest way to go for controlling 3 nema17? either trough raspberry or I might have a computer with a parallel
[22:59:45] <fthc> hmmm
[22:59:54] <fthc> guns are more regulated here than in the US
[23:00:21] <fthc> and it's less of a thing too
[23:00:23] <furrywolf> you call the place you put cargo a hold... and you call a boat a hole in the water you throw money into.
[23:00:45] <fthc> yeah it is
[23:00:53] <SolarNRG> cheapest way? 12 FETs
[23:01:28] <SolarNRG> and some shotkey diodes in reverse parallel to each of the stepper pairs
[23:01:38] <SolarNRG> hang on are your nema's 8 wire or 4 wire?
[23:01:44] <SolarNRG> or 6 wire?
[23:02:12] <fthc> I guess those http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lot-of-5-Stepper-motors-NEMA-17-DIY-CNC-ROUTER-MILL-ROBOT-REPRAP-MAKERBOT-Prusa-/111005363513
[23:02:33] <SolarNRG> gecko drives are not cheap but are freaking magic
[23:03:36] <fthc> so 6 wires
[23:03:50] <fthc> damn
[23:03:54] <malcom2073> +1 for gecko
[23:04:00] <fthc> I tought nema17 were all the same
[23:04:13] <malcom2073> nema17 is a physical spec
[23:04:18] <fthc> okay
[23:04:27] <malcom2073> For the bolt pattern iirc
[23:04:31] <SolarNRG> no I got the biggest nema 23's and they are 8 wire ones
[23:04:33] <fthc> i tought it was like brand and size
[23:04:38] <SolarNRG> they are more a class
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[23:05:00] <SolarNRG> and no lots of different companies make a wide variety of nema17's
[23:05:21] <SolarNRG> and cheaper ones tend to have aluminium mounts not steel ones
[23:05:32] <malcom2073> fthc: Use a beagleboneblack :P I run my steppers with that through a gecko G540 :-P
[23:05:36] <furrywolf> nema17 just gives some physical specs. the electrics, performance specs, etc, vary widely.
[23:06:21] <furrywolf> my nema34s are 8-wire. I wired them as 4-wire parallel.
[23:06:41] <zeeshan|2> bipolar sex
[23:07:12] <fthc> damn, 300$ for nema540
[23:07:15] <SolarNRG> you can ethernet to the beagleboneblack?
[23:07:52] <SolarNRG> geckos are NOT cheap
[23:07:55] <SolarNRG> FETs are cheap
[23:07:59] <malcom2073> SolarNRG: Yeah it has ethernet
[23:08:10] <SolarNRG> beagleboneblack rocks!
[23:08:59] <malcom2073> FETs are cheap, proper stepper control isn't
[23:09:05] <malcom2073> For simple slow things though, they're fine
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[23:09:24] <SolarNRG> yeah no microstepping capability with fets
[23:09:52] <malcom2073> Sur there is
[23:10:02] <malcom2073> if you program for it :P
[23:11:12] <SolarNRG> ok you wanna go cheap, get 4 fets, some thermal gel, bolt them to a aluminium heatsink wire the middle pins of the FETs to your parallel port but shotkeys in reverse parallel to the stepper wire pairs and off you go
[23:11:41] <SolarNRG> make some ar-15 hi capacity magazines or whatever sell them, save up for an upgrade, just get a working machine going first
[23:13:04] <fthc> ahah
[23:14:30] <fthc> I think I'm gonna buy this card https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-dc-and-stepper-motor-hat-for-raspberry-pi/using-stepper-motors and two motors and see how i could interact with it first
[23:14:42] <SolarNRG> with nema17's ull probably only be able to milll balsa, abs, hdpe to start off with but eventually you'll upgrade to beefy 23's or 34's and you'll then be able to mill wood, then aluminium and eventually steel once u've got a megatough machine going
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[23:16:14] <SolarNRG> looks abit like the arduino stepper shield
[23:16:16] <malcom2073> material capability has a lot more to do with the machine than the motors, though they play a part in how *fast* you can mill it
[23:16:53] <SolarNRG> I'm making my machine out of 100mm box steel, welded together, thick acme, automotive bearings, I'm making a tough machine
[23:17:11] <SolarNRG> but I'm running into dead ends with the shops not selling a hole saw the right size for the bearings etc
[23:17:41] <malcom2073> Be aware of weld settling/warping
[23:17:43] <fthc> does using gears help with the needed power? (altough not the speed)
[23:17:50] <malcom2073> I'm not planning on welding my frame to avoid that
[23:18:23] <SolarNRG> oh yeah, done enough fences you don't start with one corner then just go from there you do opposite corners then the middle the middle of the other side etc
[23:18:46] <malcom2073> No I mean it will de-stress over several months unless you heat treat it after welding
[23:18:56] <SolarNRG> how do you heat treat your machine?
[23:19:11] <malcom2073> I can't, too big, so I'm not welding :P
[23:19:19] <malcom2073> Otherwise: stick it in a heat treat oven
[23:19:35] <SolarNRG> Can Ijust set fire to the machine will that work?
[23:20:04] <malcom2073> The probability of success of such a thing, increases in proportion to the amount of injury, and the number of youtube hits
[23:20:04] <malcom2073> :-D
[23:20:24] <SolarNRG> and visits from the police and fire brigade
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[23:22:16] <SolarNRG> I might just end up bolting it and just tacing the bolts
[23:23:01] <SolarNRG> just to stop them coming undone
[23:23:25] <malcom2073> I planned on bolting it together (torque them right and they shouldn't come undone), then pinning the joints to prevent any possible shifting
[23:23:32] <malcom2073> But I'm doing a rather large machine
[23:23:39] <SolarNRG> how large?
[23:23:45] <SolarNRG> I'm doing one about 1.2mx1m
[23:25:17] * malcom2073 breaks out his handy dandy sae->metric converter
[23:25:21] <malcom2073> 1.5x3.0
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[23:25:57] <SolarNRG> about 4 by 5 feet
[23:26:06] <malcom2073> Mine's 5x10ft
[23:26:12] <malcom2073> going to be*
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[23:26:32] <SolarNRG> I bet you're not using thread for that, but belt am I right?
[23:27:03] <malcom2073> Hah yeah, I'm keeping an eye out of extra large ballscrews,but I'm not hopeful
[23:27:07] <malcom2073> probably doing a self-mesh belt design
[23:27:12] <malcom2073> similar to how servo-belt does it
[23:28:03] <SolarNRG> I've seen some crazy designs that used motorbike chain
[23:28:21] <malcom2073> Hah I've seen that, I thought about it
[23:28:37] <malcom2073> I'm leaving room for the drive mechanism in the design, so I can change it if need be
[23:29:02] <SolarNRG> Going for direct drive, geared or pulley design?
[23:29:06] <SolarNRG> Mine's direct drive
[23:29:12] <malcom2073> Timing belt/pully, 5:1 probably
[23:29:19] <malcom2073> direct drive nema34's wouldn't be powerful enough
[23:29:46] <SolarNRG> cor you must be mowing through steel at a rate of knots with that design
[23:30:15] <malcom2073> The idea is to do aluminum. I want to *try* steel, but I don't expect much
[23:30:27] <malcom2073> Steel is a tricky beast
[23:30:40] <SolarNRG> heat being the biggest problem
[23:31:00] <SolarNRG> very easy to cook a spindle without enough coolant and too high a feedrate
[23:31:21] <malcom2073> Too low a feed rate
[23:31:28] <malcom2073> You gotta remove chips, otherwise you're just rubbing metal
[23:31:38] <malcom2073> Move too fast and your frame flexes and you start to chatter
[23:31:50] <malcom2073> All sorts of things can go wrong cutting steel with a 6ft long gantry heh
[23:31:52] <SolarNRG> sorry, you're moving the spindle too quickly or too deep and you're not feeding enough coolant in
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[23:32:10] <SolarNRG> depends how big and how heavy your frame is
[23:32:20] <SolarNRG> mV=Mv, the mass of the machine itself plays a role
[23:32:31] <malcom2073> http://mikesshop.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Overview.png
[23:32:36] <malcom2073> It's at 1800lbs so far, and getting bigger heh
[23:32:43] <SpeedEvil> :)
[23:32:52] <SolarNRG> Similar to what I'm working on
[23:33:04] <SpeedEvil> Similar to mine, except wood
[23:33:18] <SolarNRG> SpeedEvil, ur machine is made from wood?
[23:33:43] <malcom2073> This started out 2x4, but I stumbled across some cheap rails, so I have 35mmTHK rails now so I had to make the machine bigger :/
[23:33:53] <SpeedEvil> SolarNRG: yes
[23:33:58] <malcom2073> SpeedEvil: pics?
[23:34:08] <malcom2073> I saw a wood one at an auction a couple months ago
[23:34:16] <malcom2073> guy won it for $2k, next month it was back at the same auction heh
[23:34:29] <malcom2073> Bearings were shot, steel rails were rusted to crap
[23:34:34] <SpeedEvil> malcom2073: not that far
[23:34:37] <malcom2073> He didn't know it was bad I guess
[23:34:42] <malcom2073> Ah heh
[23:34:46] <malcom2073> I thought about building a wood one first
[23:34:52] <malcom2073> Be a lot cheaper, and could re-use the same drive system
[23:35:05] <malcom2073> Build a wood one to cut wood, then upgrade to metal later
[23:35:29] <SpeedEvil> Well - I'm aiming at .1mm deflection for 100kgf
[23:35:39] <malcom2073> Bolt down 35mmTHK rails to some 4x4 wood posts, risk getting hung by the neck from a bridgeport by the local machine club
[23:36:08] <SpeedEvil> 4*8 bed bridgeports are a _little_ spendy
[23:36:12] <SolarNRG> I'm like, sod it, just get it welded check to make sure it's level, check the diagonals are equal
[23:36:26] <malcom2073> I mean they'd use the bridgeport to kill me :P
[23:36:30] <malcom2073> for using such rails on a wood machine
[23:36:31] <SolarNRG> I think the hard part comes making sure each axis is like perfectly 90 degrees from each other
[23:39:07] <SpeedEvil> Meh. >88 is fine
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[23:39:52] <malcom2073> heh
[23:39:55] <malcom2073> Close enough for govt. work
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[23:42:12] <SolarNRG> u in the us?
[23:43:02] <malcom2073> Yeah
[23:43:09] <SolarNRG> riddle me this batman....
[23:43:19] <SolarNRG> The US has manufacturing capability, and it has a constitution right?
[23:43:20] <malcom2073> Oh boy
[23:43:25] <malcom2073> So I hear
[23:43:55] <SolarNRG> That constitution says the US gov can produce it's own debt free currency, but instead choosed to borrow money at interest from the privately owned central bank the federal reserve, why?
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[23:44:19] <furrywolf> why do we park on driveways and drive on parkways?
[23:44:24] <malcom2073> furrywolf: +1
[23:44:25] <zeeshan|2> ill park on your head
[23:44:29] <malcom2073> SolarNRG: You're making a big mistake there
[23:44:36] <malcom2073> You're trying to apply logic to governmental practices
[23:44:38] <_methods> why shpend your money when you can spend someone elses
[23:44:53] <malcom2073> Making money costs money, look at pennies. They're not worth the metal they're made of
[23:44:59] <SolarNRG> _methods, BEST ANSWER EVER
[23:45:02] <zeeshan|2> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM9ZYFG379M
[23:45:05] <zeeshan|2> poor trent reznor
[23:45:08] <zeeshan|2> =D
[23:45:10] <_methods> hehe
[23:45:40] <zeeshan|2> i wonder what he thinks of this
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[23:47:28] <SolarNRG> Then the US government is no better than the average credit card fraudster! They're spending someone elses money!
[23:48:09] <SolarNRG> Actually to be fair, I think everybody's government is doing the same thing
[23:48:36] <malcom2073> XXCoder: Got an email from a local steam museum, they said they'd like to show that engine to the public if I ever feel I need a home for it
[23:50:19] <furrywolf> the one that can't actually run on steam?
[23:50:38] <SolarNRG> I think it would be a good idea to make a date in your diary and invite all your friends and family for the first day it's on display so you can tell everybody about the engine and it's history and to incentivise people to come you should offer free sandwiches
[23:50:38] <malcom2073> Yeah
[23:50:49] <malcom2073> Haha
[23:50:59] <malcom2073> SolarNRG: I have no idea, got it from a friend of mine
[23:51:09] <malcom2073> furrywolf: Yeah the wooden one
[23:51:17] <SolarNRG> malcom2073, can u weld?
[23:51:20] <SolarNRG> can u grind?
[23:51:21] <malcom2073> I guess they're hurting for stuff? dunno
[23:51:34] <malcom2073> SolarNRG: Can't weld too good, need more practice.
[23:51:36] <malcom2073> Anyone can grind
[23:51:58] <malcom2073> :P
[23:52:02] <SolarNRG> if so, take it to bits, find out what's wrong with it, give it a clean, weld over some of the big craters grind until smooth, u might get that engine running again
[23:52:09] <malcom2073> SolarNRG: It's a wooden engine
[23:52:10] <malcom2073> wait one
[23:52:21] <malcom2073> http://mikesshop.net/steamengine/
[23:53:49] <SolarNRG> where's the boiler?
[23:54:28] <furrywolf> tried running it off low pressure compressed air?
[23:55:21] <SolarNRG> that gives me a cool idea for a steampunk cnc machine, steam powered spindle
[23:55:47] <SolarNRG> only way I could think that could work is the table moves the spindle doesn't
[23:56:34] <furrywolf> and have you taken it apart to determine the actual construction and operation of the valve and cylinder?
[23:56:52] <malcom2073> Yep, it works off low pressure compressed air
[23:56:59] <furrywolf> SolarNRG: because they don't have hoses or swivel joints in steampunkland?
[23:57:01] <SolarNRG> I g2g, nice talking to u all, nn all
[23:57:05] <malcom2073> it actually is supposed to work off a vaccume cleaner, but it seems to work sorta on compressed air the other way
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[23:57:19] <malcom2073> It's a bit sticky, lots of friction, lots of air leaks
[23:57:21] <malcom2073> needs cleaning up I think
[23:57:28] <furrywolf> if it's supposed to work off a vacuum cleaner, it's a pretty bad example for a steam engine. :)
[23:57:40] <malcom2073> It's not *real* :P
[23:57:44] <furrywolf> try dry teflon spray for the pistons, if they are actually wood.
[23:57:54] <malcom2073> The piston is nylon, the cylinder is wood
[23:58:03] <malcom2073> crank bearings are nylon, rods are wood
[23:58:10] <malcom2073> gonna take them apart, sand them really smooth
[23:59:22] <furrywolf> dry teflon spray works well on wood. one of the few things that does.
[23:59:33] <malcom2073> I'll pick some of that up and give it a shot