#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-03-13

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[00:55:06] <Cromaglious> Capt Eddie Castelin posted a video
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[01:00:55] <Simonious> So, when doing multiple cut operations (profile, pocket, etc) does the gcode have a pause or something in it to change tools or is that something that is manually inserted?
[01:01:04] <Simonious> MOP footer?
[01:01:35] <Simonious> (cambam)
[01:01:51] <Cromaglious> Tx x being tool and M6
[01:04:53] <Cromaglious> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html
[01:07:34] <Simonious> ahh, so if I specify a different tool it'll pause until I tell it, it has that tool.
[01:08:12] <Simonious> That is my problem, I specified a different profile, but set them all as T0, so it didn't see a need to change.
[01:08:57] <zeeshan> im pretty sure if you call
[01:09:00] <zeeshan> t01 m6
[01:09:08] <zeeshan> and then the next op requires the same tool and you output t01 m6
[01:09:09] <zeeshan> it wont stop
[01:09:20] <zeeshan> i could be wrong, its been a while since i paid attention
[01:09:26] <Simonious> zeeshan: I think I can verify that to be a true statemeht ><
[01:09:30] <Simonious> *statement
[01:09:59] <zeeshan> ever since i went to mastercam
[01:10:06] <zeeshan> it stopped spitting that repetitively
[01:10:30] <Tom_itx> M0 M1
[01:11:10] <Tom_itx> be sure to stop the spindle too
[01:11:22] * Simonious laughs
[01:11:24] <Simonious> thanks for the tip
[01:11:37] <Simonious> FWIW my spindle is on manual control..
[01:11:52] <Tom_itx> M5
[01:12:10] <Simonious> Assuming that is a spindle code.. it won't do anything on my bot
[01:12:27] <Tom_itx> spindle stop
[01:12:39] <Simonious> zeeshan: mastercam > cambam ?
[01:12:48] <Tom_itx> yep
[01:12:48] <zeeshan> no idea
[01:12:51] <zeeshan> never used cambam
[01:12:51] <Tom_itx> $$$ too
[01:13:06] <Tom_itx> cambam sux once you've used commercial software
[01:13:18] <Simonious> I've got a coworker who swears by vectrics (if I got the name right).
[01:13:37] <Tom_itx> gawd i hate changing hardware
[01:13:52] <Tom_itx> only 5 hrs left to copy files and i didn't nearly get them all
[01:13:53] <Simonious> Tom_itx: ?? need a toolchanger?
[01:13:59] <Tom_itx> no
[01:14:48] <Tom_itx> zeeshan what do you do with files that used to reside in system32?
[01:14:56] <zeeshan> formatted
[01:14:57] <zeeshan> :-)
[01:15:19] <Tom_itx> oh nm it's still there
[01:15:34] <Simonious> So.. I'm using inkscape to translate images (edge detection, greyscale convert) to DXFs and that seems to be working okay, but you guys seem knowledgable - that seem like a reasonable way to do things? (I'm touching the resulting DXF up in sketchup and then generating gcode with cambam.
[01:16:02] <Tom_itx> i started to copy over the network but figured it might be faster if i just put the drive in the machine and copied that way
[01:16:14] <Tom_itx> doesn't seem to be much faster if any
[01:16:57] <Tom_itx> Simonious if it's working...
[01:17:03] <Simonious> that's my feeling
[01:17:18] <Simonious> can cambam do v-carve?
[01:17:45] <Simonious> My web searches have been.. unhelpful
[01:18:00] <Tom_itx> there was a vcarve program... i can't recall it's name
[01:18:14] <Simonious> as in part of cambam or it's own thing?
[01:18:18] <Tom_itx> own
[01:18:34] <Simonious> okay.. that's one point for Vectric then..
[01:18:50] <Simonious> vectric > mastercam?
[01:19:12] <Tom_itx> no clue
[01:19:29] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: have you seen this open ECU project for STM32F micros? http://openlunchbox.com/smf/index.php?topic=56.0
[01:19:41] <zeeshan> no
[01:19:44] <zeeshan> i wouldnt use an open source ecu
[01:19:48] <zeeshan> megasquirt is a nightmare
[01:19:49] <CaptHindsight> http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Manual:Hardware_Frankenso_board
[01:19:49] <malcom2073> Why not?
[01:19:53] <malcom2073> megasquirt isn't open source
[01:20:02] <malcom2073> I run my car onan open source ecu
[01:20:11] <zeeshan> i run my car on an oem tested ecu
[01:20:15] <zeeshan> and modify it.
[01:20:21] <zeeshan> best way to modify cars
[01:20:28] <zeeshan> keep the original transient maps
[01:20:31] <malcom2073> oem tested ecu's can't run my car, at least not for under 10 grand for a proper aftermarket one heh
[01:20:45] <zeeshan> adjust the ignition timing and fuel injector size and afr's to your spec
[01:20:54] <zeeshan> what car?
[01:20:59] <zeeshan> haltech e6x, aem ems
[01:21:02] <zeeshan> pretty good ecus.
[01:21:06] <zeeshan> around a grand
[01:21:11] <malcom2073> 87 camaro, 6.3L v8
[01:21:21] <malcom2073> aem's tuning software is a nightmare, though haltech isn't terrible
[01:21:24] <zeeshan> lt1..
[01:21:30] <malcom2073> Then again, my ECU was $300, and works wonderful
[01:21:32] <malcom2073> Nope, gen1
[01:21:32] <zeeshan> or what?
[01:21:41] <zeeshan> ah you have an old comp
[01:21:43] <malcom2073> yeah
[01:21:47] <malcom2073> old school 383
[01:21:47] <zeeshan> cant run hptuners or efi live
[01:21:52] <malcom2073> Nope
[01:22:01] <malcom2073> It was OBD1, but the stock ecu couldn't handle the engine
[01:22:14] <zeeshan> i know people swap ls1's to those :)
[01:22:18] <malcom2073> needed fuel mode blending
[01:22:26] <malcom2073> Yeah I know a could people who've done that
[01:22:43] <malcom2073> They pay about three times what I do, but have the same amount of power. But they can get a lot more power if they keep throwing moeny at it, I'm at the top :P
[01:23:28] <malcom2073> I didn't want to tear into the frame though
[01:23:46] <zeeshan> theres no denying gen II
[01:23:55] <zeeshan> i mean gen III motors are superior
[01:24:11] <malcom2073> Good motors, for sure, but you can't beat the price of gen1 if you're not looking for a 10 second dragstrip car
[01:24:17] <zeeshan> and then gen v belittles both iv and 3
[01:24:42] <zeeshan> i dunno about that
[01:24:47] <zeeshan> you can get a lq4 for like $400 from a jy
[01:24:59] <zeeshan> thats pretty cheap! :P
[01:25:42] <zeeshan> i really thought megasquirt was open source
[01:27:41] <zeeshan> i think after im done making the enclosure on the lathe
[01:27:44] <zeeshan> i will start working on the car again!
[01:27:54] <zeeshan> poor thing has been neglected for so long :(
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[01:51:53] <Simonious> so.. unlike my 3d printer, I can not jog the toolhead when I pause a cut.. this makes changing tools very challening. I either have to include a provision in the gcode for lifting up the router to leave me enough room to change the toolhead or I have to run multiple gcodes files allowing me the opportunity to change the toolhead between runs.
[01:51:58] <Simonious> lame
[01:53:53] <jdh> OMG, you mean you have to actually program the tool change?
[01:55:36] <jdh> how did the pause get in ther?
[01:55:39] <Simonious> Well I'm new to cambam. with pronterface when I pause a print I can move the toolhead around if I want to. I had hoped I could do that here so I could pause, lift the router, change the tool and resume, but not such luck, cannot move the router position at all while the program is paused.
[01:55:54] <Simonious> the pause occurs while the machine waits for me to change from tool 0 to 1 and then 2
[01:59:32] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: do you know a good source to get mechanical/thermal properties of plastics?
[01:59:36] <zeeshan> specifically TPU?
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[01:59:58] <zeeshan> i need things like molar mass, density, thermal conductivity, and specific heat capacity
[02:00:15] <jdh> mfg product data sheet?
[02:00:16] <renesis> you dont have a plastics course at school?
[02:00:30] <zeeshan> jdh unfortunately none
[02:00:35] <zeeshan> i want a handbook for different types
[02:00:45] <renesis> find the text book from the book store site, then torrent it
[02:01:15] <furrywolf> zeeshan: you said you like delicious peppers? I found some pepper porn for you: http://thehotpepper.com/topic/34027-monster-infinity-7-pot-red-superhot-interior-shot/
[02:01:35] <zeeshan> those don't look too good for the rear end
[02:01:35] <zeeshan> :[
[02:01:52] <renesis> damn those dont look strippable
[02:02:46] <renesis> so i figured some of the heat in serranos was in the skins, and i stipped out seeds and inside flesh completely from a batch of salsa verde
[02:02:52] <renesis> wasnt even mild
[02:03:28] <furrywolf> ... why the hell would you do that?
[02:03:37] <furrywolf> serranos are pretty mild to start with, first of all...
[02:03:39] <renesis> friends wife is ultra white
[02:03:51] <renesis> not used straight
[02:04:08] <renesis> and when its half the volume of the salsa
[02:04:32] <renesis> most people ive cooked for cant even deal with that for chips
[02:04:37] <furrywolf> ... that sounds like some salsa I'd want. :P
[02:04:45] <furrywolf> (half serranos, not skinned)
[02:04:46] <renesis> so i would strip out like half the peppers
[02:05:25] <renesis> furrywolf: i used the skins and tossed the seeds and soft inner bits
[02:05:48] <furrywolf> yes. I'd love some salsa made from 50% serranos, whole.
[02:06:02] <renesis> yeah thats how i normally do it
[02:06:26] <renesis> not for chips tho
[02:06:36] <Cromaglious> they are night shades so I can't eat them raw, or under cooked
[02:06:37] <furrywolf> yes for chips!
[02:06:41] <renesis> but for like tacos or something
[02:06:59] <renesis> cromaglious: i boil the fuck out of them
[02:07:05] <renesis> i dont like pico de gallo
[02:07:24] <renesis> i just do serranos and tamatillos and salt
[02:07:37] <furrywolf> the hottest thing you can get locally is "death paste" made by one of the local burrito shops... it's pureed habaneros. it's good on chips, heatwise, but lacks flavor...
[02:07:58] <Cromaglious> I'm latex allergic big time, like anaphylasis, contact dematitis, projectile vomiting,....
[02:08:12] <renesis> i stripped out habs and made salsa naranja with friends little orange cherry tomatoes
[02:08:19] <renesis> wasnt that hot
[02:08:34] <renesis> left a couple with seeds
[02:09:01] <renesis> came out good, bit too sweet, but the habanero pepper flavor came through
[02:09:10] <Cromaglious> wow that stepper was effing hot!
[02:09:20] <renesis> lick it!
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[02:09:28] <Cromaglious> bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbburned my finger
[02:09:31] <furrywolf> this year for hot I'll have Moruga Scorpion, Bhut Jolokia, Carolina Reaper, Naga Viper, and 7 Pot Brain Strain... should get some salsa with a bit of heat.
[02:09:38] <Cromaglious> damn kb stutter
[02:10:03] <Cromaglious> sit sizzles on it
[02:10:08] <Cromaglious> spit sizzles on it
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[02:12:27] <Tom_itx> running too hot ehh?
[02:12:30] <furrywolf> sounds like your drive current and/or voltage is too high. if you have drives with a current set resistor, make sure it's present and making good contact with any terminals.
[02:12:55] <furrywolf> if you designed it yourself, make sure your current setting and power supply voltage are reasonable.
[02:14:29] <Cromaglious> it was set at 3amp, just dropped it to 1.4amps
[02:14:34] <Cromaglious> 20v
[02:14:51] <furrywolf> that's low enough no stepper should be unahppy
[02:14:52] <furrywolf> unhappy
[02:15:13] <furrywolf> there's some rule-of-thumb like 32 times the square root of the inductance, or something like that...
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[02:18:07] <Cromaglious> sanyo denki stepper 103H548-0465 Each Coil Type: Unipolar Current Rating: 1.2A No. of Phases: Two Resistance: 3ohm Inductance: 4.3mH
[02:18:59] <furrywolf> oh, so you were running a 1.2A stepper at 3A...
[02:19:48] <Cromaglious> with 0% decay
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[02:20:03] <furrywolf> yeah, so... I'll chalk this one up to operator error. :)
[02:20:26] <furrywolf> you should have the current set around the rating, and it drop to 50% or less at idle except for very odd uses.
[02:22:45] <Cromaglious> ok set at 50% decay 1.2amp
[02:22:57] <furrywolf> hopefully you didn't melt any windings and/or demagnetize the rotor...
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[02:23:38] * furrywolf bets it's much cooler now
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[02:25:33] <Cromaglious> still working
[02:26:23] <Cromaglious> still cooling down, but I can touch it for longer time now
[02:27:15] <Cromaglious> now to let it sit doing nothing to see how hot it gets
[02:28:01] <furrywolf> mine don't seem to get that hot... I might up the drive current.
[02:28:10] <furrywolf> but I'm not sure it's useful. I lack speed, not torque.
[02:30:09] <furrywolf> I might have to back Z drive current down actually, as it has enough torque to yank the brass bushes out at the end of travel.
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[02:42:05] <Cromaglious> cooler yet
[02:44:25] <furrywolf> heating when stopped is i^2 * r... if you run double the current, you get four times the heat...
[02:46:12] <furrywolf> ... why the hell is google spamming me with a big banner on the top of every search page telling me to use google?
[02:46:54] <Tom_itx> cause you let it
[02:48:33] <roycroft> because google knows how easy it is to yank your chain and can't help itself
[02:51:05] <Cromaglious> man I wish the author of 'The Private' would post more often on Storiesonline.net
[02:53:35] * furrywolf has no idea what that is, but wonders if Cromaglious should keep stories about privates to him/herself....
[02:54:32] <Cromaglious> I don't read those stories, I read the SciFi and Military/MilSciFi
[02:55:32] <Cromaglious> or the CMSIX aliens saved me from dieing and want me to live on an alien plant in a socialology experiment
[02:55:46] <Cromaglious> alien planet
[02:55:50] <furrywolf> military scifi? and the M843 gynoid took off its flak vast and unzipped its top, revealing the perfectly formed titanium rocket launchers...
[02:57:09] <Cromaglious> furrywolf, keep that up and I'm gonna take away you BOB
[02:57:58] <furrywolf> if you take away my BOB, my mill won't work! pcw still hasn't sent me a 7i76e yet. :P
[02:58:53] <Cromaglious> hardly warm at all now
[02:59:12] <Cromaglious> nema 23 is warmer
[02:59:26] <Cromaglious> guess I should turn that one down too
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[03:01:56] <Cromaglious> decay is set to 50% so it should only be getting 1.5 amps
[03:04:07] * furrywolf isn't much of a BOB fan, preferring plain silicone
[03:05:46] <furrywolf> I want a http://www.wetforher.us/dildo-lesbian-sex-toys-all/34-strap-on-harness-dildo-multicolor-sex-toy-lesbian-.html#/size_sex_toy-medium_3_fingers next... that has to be the most artistic bit of silicone I've ever seen.
[03:05:56] <Cromaglious> she finally gets it
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[03:06:50] <furrywolf> oh, I knew what you meant the first time. I just couldn't let the breakout board joke go unsaid. :P
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[03:10:05] <Cromaglious> ;P
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[03:13:47] <furrywolf> what do you think on that one? I want to get it and leave it sitting out like a piece of art. :P
[03:17:02] <Cromaglious> NWS not wife safe
[03:17:44] <furrywolf> why, she might make you get your credit card out?
[03:18:58] <Cromaglious> maybe, but she carries all the cards... all I carry is ID
[03:19:10] <Cromaglious> ok she has left the building
[03:19:38] <furrywolf> lol
[03:20:02] <Cromaglious> I must admit that is pretty interesting
[03:20:30] <Cromaglious> I'm run the board for a Elvis Tribute not so Artist
[03:21:11] <furrywolf> ?
[03:21:13] <Cromaglious> s/I'm/I've/
[03:21:23] <Cromaglious> sound board, and lights
[03:21:53] <Cromaglious> not so good artist... kinda ok... not great
[03:22:25] <furrywolf> I have no artistic abilities at all.
[03:22:42] <Cromaglious> Though he styles himself Melvis, The Mexican Elvis, with Aloha Show Jump suits
[03:23:17] <Cromaglious> Thank The godess he's moving to Tucson
[03:23:23] <furrywolf> lol
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[03:36:18] <Cromaglious> using my BOB and drivers and stepper to entertain the cats
[03:37:59] * furrywolf could make a joke about that
[03:38:17] <furrywolf> after all, we know how you define BOB...
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[03:39:14] <Cromaglious> yeah BOB, airport code for Bora Bora
[03:39:27] <furrywolf> lol
[03:48:42] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
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[04:07:25] <Cromaglious> facebook.com/CaliforniaRightToCarry/ look for the picture with the rainbow kitty
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[06:16:25] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: for free?
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[08:02:47] <Deejay> moin
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[10:27:57] <MrSunshine> is it possible in some way to change the max accel directly from axis gui ?
[10:28:20] <MrSunshine> for some operations i want high accel in X and Z .. but not in Y and some i want slow accel in all axis
[10:29:21] <MrSunshine> or will i need several ini files ?
[10:29:54] <MrSunshine> but i guess .. i could have X and Z high all the time .. as its the Y axis that needs slow accel due to extensive mass
[10:29:58] <MrSunshine> exessive
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[11:54:29] <pippin88_> Hi all, I'm wondering if anyone has any experience making new bitfiles for mesa boards?
[11:57:36] pippin88_ is now known as pippin88
[12:11:18] <Tom_itx> a little
[12:12:30] <Tom_itx> pippin88, http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx14_install_index.php
[12:12:48] <pippin88> hi Tom, I saw your name on a couple of logs regarding this.
[12:13:14] <Tom_itx> unfortunately i'm walking out the door...
[12:13:17] <pippin88> I'm just doing a post on the forum explaining the steps I've gone through, I'll finish that and link it
[12:13:19] <pippin88> ah
[12:13:32] <pippin88> very quickly, have you come across error: Line 1198. Size of ibus is different than size of the target.
[12:13:54] <Tom_itx> what board?
[12:14:01] <pippin88> 7i43
[12:14:04] <Tom_itx> PCW can probably help you better
[12:14:12] <pippin88> interfacing to 7i76
[12:14:17] <Tom_itx> i had a 7i43 at one time
[12:15:02] <Tom_itx> that page (i think) makes it pretty clear how to do it
[12:15:59] <pippin88> I've been following that guide and I think this is an error unrelated to changing the pin out - whether it has to do with a newer version of the Xilinx software or something I don't know
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[12:16:19] <Tom_itx> you'll have to ask PCW about that
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[12:17:18] <pippin88> ok, thanks
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[12:28:57] * jthornton is glad he lives above the high water mark today
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[12:48:04] <ssi> morn
[12:50:36] <pcw_home> Almost wish that was something we needed to worry about
[12:52:59] <dirty_d> hmm what the hell, i interpolated a hole in 12L14 and it came out 0.005" under
[12:53:23] <dirty_d> 3/16" endmill with a 0.005" finishing pass
[12:53:50] <dirty_d> other holes in aluminum came out a tiny bit under too, but not 0.005"
[12:55:11] <skunkworks> is the hole tapered?
[12:55:16] <dirty_d> is it due to flex? maybe to finishing passes?
[12:55:31] <dirty_d> skunkworks, yea a little bit
[12:55:40] <dirty_d> two*
[12:55:45] <skunkworks> what feed?
[12:56:14] <dirty_d> 2000rpm @ 2.5in/min i think
[12:56:15] <skunkworks> sounds like tool deflection (going to fast/slow spindle rpm)
[12:57:13] <dirty_d> hss end mill too
[12:58:16] <archivist> machine style?
[12:58:23] <dirty_d> i drilled it first with a 3/16" drill, then helical interpolated to 0.010" under, then took off the last 0.010" with the finishing pass
[12:58:28] <dirty_d> G0704
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[12:58:48] <dirty_d> maybe ill try the spring pass option next time
[12:59:56] <dirty_d> when i would helically interpolate holes to the finished diameter, they'd come out too large, not that i end with a circular finishing pass, they come out under.
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[13:02:58] <jthornton> got a reamer?
[13:03:25] <dirty_d> nope
[13:03:36] <dirty_d> boring head, but that hole is too small
[13:03:41] <archivist> got any backlash on your screws?
[13:03:47] <dirty_d> it should be coming out better than 0.005" off though
[13:03:58] <dirty_d> yea 0.0015" on all axes
[13:04:01] <dirty_d> compensated for
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[13:04:31] <cradek> compensated how?
[13:04:39] <dirty_d> linuxcnc backlash compensation
[13:04:48] <cradek> oh you can't expect that to give you round holes
[13:05:06] <cradek> you have to use a boring head if your screws are sloppy
[13:05:11] <dirty_d> they come out round to within 0.001" or better
[13:05:20] <dirty_d> its just the actual size thats off
[13:05:20] <cradek> measured how?
[13:05:31] <dirty_d> dial calipers
[13:05:48] <cradek> oh you can't expect to measure a hole's roundness with dial calipers :-)
[13:05:55] <dirty_d> close enough
[13:06:46] <dirty_d> these are actually very accurate, if i measure something with a micrometer, then with the dial calipers, its to within a few 0.0001" by raeding between the lines
[13:07:17] <cradek> you can sure keep tweaking your gcode to get the diameter to look right on your calipers, but I really think it's your expectations of your loose machine that are the main problem
[13:07:49] <cradek> boring heads work great for making perfect round holes on loose machines
[13:07:58] <dirty_d> it shouldnt be off that far though
[13:08:10] <dirty_d> linear cuts and stuff are to within 0.001"
[13:08:13] * cradek shrugs
[13:08:14] <dirty_d> its just interpolated holes
[13:08:28] <dirty_d> i think the tool is deflecting
[13:08:32] <cradek> how much backlash is actually in the screws?
[13:08:40] <dirty_d> 0.0015"
[13:08:47] <cradek> yes that's a factor, or possibly the whole machine deflects
[13:09:02] <dirty_d> overloaded ball screws
[13:09:10] <cradek> oh that's not as bad as I expected you to say
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[13:10:29] <cradek> what size holes are you cutting?
[13:10:45] <dirty_d> the hole i tested was 0.225"
[13:11:00] <dirty_d> came out about 0.220"
[13:11:01] <cradek> ah so a very small end mill
[13:11:08] <dirty_d> 0.1875"
[13:11:09] <cradek> how long is the cutting part of the end mill?
[13:11:13] <dirty_d> 0.5"
[13:11:15] <archivist> will flex
[13:11:16] <cradek> whoah
[13:11:24] <cradek> that's wayyyy too long for hss
[13:11:36] <dirty_d> hmm?
[13:11:38] <dirty_d> its pretty short
[13:11:41] <cradek> for that size you should just drill and ream
[13:12:15] <dirty_d> its the front center one http://littlemachineshop.com/products/Images/480/480.1243.jpg
[13:12:39] <dirty_d> i know, this is just hobby stuff though, so i cant afford a reamer for every size hole ill ever need to make
[13:12:40] <cradek> up near 3x dia you'd have better luck with carbide
[13:13:14] <ssi> for that size a drill will give you better tolerance than your interpolated hole
[13:13:22] <ssi> and a reamer will give you better tolerance than the drill if you need it
[13:13:29] <cradek> that's true
[13:13:46] <dirty_d> yea
[13:13:59] <ssi> and for bigger stuff, you can use a stiffer endmill which'll tolerance better
[13:14:07] <dirty_d> i just want to be able to make any size holes with the minimum number of tools to save money
[13:14:29] <ssi> I certainly understand that, but for stuff up to 1/2", a drill index isn't that much money :)
[13:14:35] <dirty_d> boring head does that for me for holes over 5/16" or so
[13:14:56] <dirty_d> i almost bought one of those sets
[13:15:20] <archivist> compensate , tell the code the endmill is undersized
[13:16:04] <dirty_d> archivist, i may, but i have a feeling multiple finishing passes will bring the hole to much closer to wqhat it should be
[13:16:10] <archivist> and what mode are you in with what version exact path?
[13:16:56] <dirty_d> G64 P0.0001
[13:17:02] <dirty_d> the one with tolerance
[13:17:16] <dirty_d> or is it G63?
[13:17:27] <archivist> is the hole a real arc/helix/ or interpolated lines from some cam
[13:18:07] <dirty_d> real arcs
[13:18:17] <dirty_d> actually, let me make sure
[13:18:43] <dirty_d> who knows, maybe fusion 360 changed my settings
[13:19:58] <dirty_d> yea arcs, and it didnt change the G64 setting
[13:20:14] <ssi> is fusion doing well for you for cam?
[13:20:30] <dirty_d> yea, its actually pretty good
[13:20:37] <ssi> what platform are you on
[13:20:39] <dirty_d> their, sketcher sucks hard though
[13:20:48] <dirty_d> i just use it in a windows VM
[13:20:57] <ssi> on linux?
[13:21:03] <dirty_d> i just design the part in solvaspace, then export to step
[13:21:05] <dirty_d> yea
[13:21:11] <ssi> gotcha
[13:21:33] <ssi> I've tried fusion on osx, and it seems extremely laggy and shitty for me
[13:22:13] <dirty_d> the sketcher is laggy as hell
[13:22:15] <dirty_d> cam is tolerable
[13:22:39] <dirty_d> and its really the only usable free cam ive been able to find
[13:22:59] <dirty_d> every other free cam ive found just uses triangle meshes for geometry
[13:23:13] <ssi> I never thought about trying to use it as cam only
[13:23:14] <dirty_d> more geared towards 3-axis 3D stuff
[13:23:17] <dirty_d> not accurate 2.5D
[13:23:34] <ssi> will it import solidworks parts reasonably?
[13:23:52] <dirty_d> ive never tried, but if you can export the model as step etc it will
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[14:16:30] <dirty_d> uhhhh, isnt this a face mill? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Boring-Head-Rough-Cut-With-R8-Shank-/331501963802?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d2f0e8a1a
[14:17:12] <ssi> indeed :P
[14:18:02] <cradek> ha
[14:18:28] <archivist> report to fleabay for bad description
[14:19:14] <dirty_d> seems like a steal for $20
[14:19:35] <dirty_d> i should probably get taht huh?
[14:19:38] <dirty_d> i dont have a face mill
[14:19:45] <archivist> if you have R8 spindle
[14:19:48] <dirty_d> i do
[14:20:10] <dirty_d> its not 100 years old with inserts i cant buy anymore is it?
[14:20:22] <cradek> that style of insert (no relief) won't really cut aluminum
[14:20:41] <archivist> more like the free one you get with cheap mills
[14:21:46] <cradek> on a light machine, a flycutter with a hand-sharpened HSS lathe bit will work a lot better
[14:21:58] <dirty_d> ok
[14:21:59] <ssi> http://mashable.com/2015/03/13/flight-radar-penis/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link
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[14:22:23] <dirty_d> hah
[14:22:39] <ssi> that's where I was on tuesday too
[14:22:41] <ssi> but it wasn't me!
[14:23:09] <dirty_d> hmm, are there 1/2" shank "mini" boring bars for boring heads taht can do really small holes? like 0.2"?
[14:23:17] <dirty_d> the ones i have go down to 5/16" holes
[14:23:31] <ssi> I have some tiny boring bars and tiny internal threading tools
[14:23:44] <dirty_d> from where?
[14:23:45] <cradek> you can get tiny carbide boring bars but they're sooo fragile
[14:23:58] <dirty_d> im very careful, lol
[14:24:00] <cradek> much better to ream
[14:24:02] <ssi> shars
[14:24:04] <dirty_d> i havent broke anything yet
[14:24:12] <archivist> just grind up some hss to suit the job in hand
[14:24:34] <dirty_d> what kind of grinder do you need? just a bench grinder?
[14:24:47] <archivist> boring a 2mm hole on a lathe is entertaining
[14:25:18] <cradek> yeah, a bench grinder, and maybe a stone or diamond file to do sharpening afterward
[14:25:31] <archivist> I often do my tiny stuff with a green grit on the dremel under a microscope
[14:25:58] <dirty_d> wow
[14:26:20] <dirty_d> so just get 1/2" HSS shank?
[14:26:25] <dirty_d> and grind down the end
[14:26:40] <archivist> 1/8" for small
[14:26:53] <archivist> less grinding to do
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[14:28:07] <archivist> or, file and grind carbon steel and harden then final sharpen
[14:28:11] <dirty_d> how would i mount it in the boring head though?
[14:28:26] <ssi> make a bushing
[14:28:37] <dirty_d> drill a 1/8" hole in a shank and set screw?
[14:28:55] <archivist> I make boring heads/fly cutters to suit the metal as well
[14:29:17] <archivist> then mount in a standard collet
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[14:30:31] <miss0r> Now that my CNC build is complete, I want to test it out :) I have done alot of drawing in sketchup, and I would like to be able to convert that to g-code. Can you guys reccomend any good software(preferably free) for converting dxf to gcode?
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[14:32:34] <dirty_d> miss0r, the only free cam program i could find that seems any good is the one that comes with autodesk fusion 360
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[14:33:08] <miss0r> what is the converter called?
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[14:33:34] <dirty_d> its basically HSMExpress i think
[14:33:47] <dirty_d> miss0r, youre just doing 2d profiling?
[14:33:48] <miss0r> thanks. I will look for it :)
[14:34:00] <miss0r> I think the term is 2.5D ? :)
[14:34:13] <dirty_d> miss0r, yea im doing 2.5D also
[14:34:33] <miss0r> it is only a 3-axis mill this one.
[14:34:39] <dirty_d> you might wanna check out solvespace for doing the CAD work, its probably better than using sketchup
[14:34:45] <dirty_d> yea thats what i have
[14:35:08] <miss0r> it might be. I've found sketchup to be quite good actualy
[14:35:33] <dirty_d> can you do parametric modeling and stuff with it?
[14:35:47] <miss0r> I have no idea what that means :)
[14:36:24] <dirty_d> like the geometry is all defined mathematically, if you change one thing, everything else changes to maintain the mathematical relationship
[14:36:44] <miss0r> I don't think it can do that.
[14:37:07] <dirty_d> ive found it really annoying to try to do any CAD without a parametric modeler
[14:37:14] <ssi> agreed
[14:37:21] <dirty_d> because if you need to make a major change, then you need to change literally everything else
[14:37:29] <ssi> relations are super important
[14:37:52] <dirty_d> solvespace is the only fully parametric cad program ive been able to find thats free
[14:37:53] <miss0r> i've not graduated to that level of CAD'ing yet. perhaps I should just go ahead and learn it from the start
[14:37:59] <dirty_d> freecad is supposed to be, but it just doesnt work
[14:38:19] <dirty_d> miss0r, yea id start with parametric, its super easy
[14:38:32] <dirty_d> especially with solvespace because its so simple
[14:38:38] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B__BWjSWcAAC5u5.jpg:large
[14:38:43] <ssi> homebuilt pitot/static for the pitts
[14:38:52] <miss0r> i'm looking at this HSMExpress - it doesn't seem very free to me
[14:38:53] <dirty_d> whoa,tahts a wing
[14:38:55] <ssi> it's a pretty clever design
[14:39:04] <ssi> the mounting block has two concentric pipe taps
[14:39:11] <ssi> the deep one is 1/8" npt, the shallow one 1/4" npt
[14:39:12] <dirty_d> miss0r, HSMExpress is built into fusioon 360
[14:39:23] <miss0r> and that costs money... darn
[14:39:31] <dirty_d> nope
[14:39:32] <ssi> there's a 4130 steel tube with a brass pipe nipple cut off and epoxied to it, that screws into the deep thread
[14:39:38] <ssi> and it's threaded 5/16-24 on the far end
[14:39:39] <dirty_d> only when you use it on its own with another cad program
[14:39:52] <ssi> then an aluminum tube threaded 1/4" npt on one end, chamfered and with static holes drilled on the far end
[14:39:59] <ssi> aluminum nozzle turned, bored, threaded
[14:40:18] <ssi> the nozzle has a counterbore that holds the outer static tube in place, and threads onto the steel pitot tube to hold everything together
[14:40:21] <ssi> very simple
[14:40:55] <dirty_d> ssi, i have no idea what im looking at, lol
[14:41:36] <ssi> https://secure.steenaero.com/Store/site/product.cfm?id=B6853D82-102E-BB20-1868CF89D388401B
[14:41:44] <ssi> I didn't want to spend $150
[14:41:47] <ssi> so I made my own :P
[14:42:39] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: there are a few sites like this http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/polymer-properties-d_1222.html
[14:43:07] <dirty_d> ssi, youre building an airplane?
[14:43:23] <ssi> I'm actually building TWO airplanes :P
[14:43:34] <dirty_d> holy bejesus
[14:43:40] <jdh> with no laser?
[14:43:43] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: but nothing very complete, you have to get the manufacturers data sheet since any additives can make a big difference
[14:43:51] <ssi> I wouldn't say NO laser :P
[14:46:21] <dirty_d> archivist, so something like this? http://www.mcmaster.com/#8813a38/=waik4k
[14:47:01] <miss0r> I find this SolveSpace very confusing
[14:47:17] <archivist> dirty_d, I have a selection of sizes here for when I want to do something
[14:47:32] <dirty_d> miss0r, what are you trying to do?
[14:47:42] <miss0r> What is a workspace and how do I select it?
[14:48:07] <dirty_d> miss0r, its a plane
[14:48:27] <dirty_d> are you trying to create a new workspace?
[14:48:37] <archivist> dirty_d, one in action (6mm carbon steel hardened) http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2009/2009_08_13_cnc_helical/P1010262.JPG
[14:48:51] <miss0r> nope. just trying to do a simple square box with a round hole in the middle.
[14:49:23] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: http://www.curbellplastics.com/technical-resources/pdf/plastic-material-selection.pdf
[14:49:40] <dirty_d> archivist, the hss is mounted horizontally in that?
[14:50:01] <dirty_d> miss0r, just draw a box with the rectangle tool
[14:50:04] <archivist> yes I am about to cut a helical gear
[14:50:06] <dirty_d> then draw a circle in the middle
[14:50:11] <dirty_d> archivist, cool
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[14:50:34] <Rab> miss0r, I found the introductory tutorial very helpful: http://solvespace.com/bracket.pl
[14:52:29] <ssi> dirty_d: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B9gLxFEIcAAQpJw.jpg:large
[14:52:36] <miss0r> alright, Thanks. I am reading up on it at the moment. google can teach us everything
[14:52:44] <dirty_d> archivist, so id be making something like this, looks tricky http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Fighter1/media/PA020424.jpg.html
[14:53:05] <HSD> ssi, nice!
[14:53:06] <dirty_d> ssi, holy crap, is this for yourself?
[14:53:10] <ssi> yus
[14:53:43] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4IlPG2IYAEE_5e.jpg:large
[14:53:47] <ssi> there's the other one heh
[14:53:58] <archivist> dirty_d, yes but that looks like a lathe form, but really, whatever you need
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[14:54:46] <dirty_d> archivist, i think mine would have to be like that since it mounts vertically in a boring head
[14:55:38] <dirty_d> i guess i could chuck the HSS and mount a mini grinding wheel on my mill table then use the mill to grind it how i need
[14:56:10] <ssi> go buy a surface grinder
[14:56:10] <JT-Shop> ssi, looking good... getting close
[14:56:13] <ssi> and a heat treat oven
[14:56:18] <archivist> dirty_d, this style http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1266
[14:56:18] <ssi> JT-Shop: thanks!
[14:56:29] <ssi> I'm mired in detail hell right now on the pitts
[14:56:38] <dirty_d> archivist, pretty sure thats the exact one i have
[14:56:53] <archivist> I have one too
[14:56:58] <ssi> it's dry rigged at the moment, and I'm working on capstrip, pitot, aileron attach hardware, control bracket mountings, etc
[14:57:02] <dirty_d> ssi, whered you get the engines?
[14:57:22] <ssi> dirty_d: bought them from people heh
[14:57:55] <ssi> http://www.barnstormers.com/Engines+-+Piston%20Categories.html
[14:58:25] <archivist> engine traffickers
[14:58:35] <JT-Shop> is that a S1-SS?
[14:58:50] <ssi> yep
[14:59:08] <ssi> modified SS anyway
[14:59:18] <ssi> more raven style, square tip, 53" ailerons
[14:59:52] <ssi> I went to florida tuesday with a friend of mine to pick up an S1SS he just bought: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B_04Ph7XEAIN8Rr.jpg:large
[15:00:12] <ssi> his is a more traditional SS, quarterround tips, standard length ailerons
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[15:00:17] <ssi> but his is built with zero dihedral
[15:00:37] <JT-Shop> nice air to air photo
[15:00:52] <ssi> :)
[15:00:56] <ssi> we flew 350 miles back in formation
[15:01:01] <ssi> since he had no nav
[15:01:41] <JT-Shop> I started a Corben Baby Ace D a long time ago but never finished it
[15:02:11] <ssi> nice... still have it?
[15:02:12] <dirty_d> aha, they actually make them <ssi> but his is built with zero dihedral
[15:02:13] <dirty_d> oops
[15:02:24] <dirty_d> http://www.kbctools.com/products/CUTTING%20TOOLS/BORING%20BARS/SOLID%20CARBIDE%20BORING%20BARS.aspx
[15:02:41] <dirty_d> xchat does something weird with my clipboard
[15:02:49] <ssi> I get that sometimes too
[15:03:11] <dirty_d> oh, just highlighting text copies it
[15:03:14] <ssi> JT-Shop: lol: Unit cost
[15:03:15] <ssi> $1095 for a A-40 engined model in 1935, approximately $2750 to build in 1971
[15:03:29] <archivist> I dont think the clipboard problem is xchat
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[15:04:57] <dirty_d> it only does it in xchat
[15:05:18] <dirty_d> everything else just pastes highlighted text with middle-click
[15:05:31] <dirty_d> xchat actually copies it in to the clipboard
[15:05:37] <dirty_d> as in ctrl+v
[15:06:11] <JT-Shop> ssi, I also have the plans for a Bensen
[15:06:39] <ssi> I want to build an RLU-1 Breezy real bad
[15:06:49] <ssi> bensen gyro?
[15:06:52] <ssi> i want a gyro too
[15:06:58] <JT-Shop> aye
[15:07:05] <JT-Shop> the powered one
[15:07:14] <ssi> the place where we picked up chris's pitts had a sad looking gyro
[15:07:16] <ssi> lemme put up a pic
[15:07:49] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B__IDpUWoAArLTz.jpg:large
[15:08:05] <ssi> apparently the guy's dad used to roll that bastard
[15:08:07] <ssi> that takes brass balls
[15:08:53] <JT-Shop> yea or a tad crazy
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[15:09:08] <archivist> all of the above :)
[15:09:22] <dirty_d> all i can picture is this http://41.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7e92hGRWb1qc31blo1_1280.jpg
[15:09:44] * JT-Shop goes back to welding... break is over
[15:09:48] <CaptHindsight> James Bond flew those all the time, it even had machine guns and rocket launchers on it
[15:10:16] <ssi> CaptHindsight: you know james bond was fictional, right? ;)
[15:10:34] <jdh> as is pussy galore?
[15:10:36] <HSD> ssi, starduster?
[15:10:59] <ssi> HSD: not sure which you're referring to, but no stardusters were harmed in this conversation
[15:11:05] <ssi> all the biplanes pictured are Pitts S1's
[15:11:11] <HSD> AH. ok
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[15:19:51] <Tecan> http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:722047
[15:20:12] <ssi> neat
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[15:23:28] <ssi> this is a decent little project for the money
[15:23:28] <ssi> http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_990657_baby+Great+Lakes.html
[15:25:40] <dirty_d> i wonder if fusion 360 runs this bad on a real windows machine
[15:26:01] <dirty_d> it seesm to run slower and slower every time i use it
[15:27:38] <SpeedEvil> Isn't a baby great lake just a lake?
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[15:38:37] <dirty_d> is it me, or do these look like regular length drill bits? http://www.amazon.com/Drill-America-A60S-CO-SET-Machine-Degrees/dp/B00B0XJ32M/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1426261007&sr=8-3&keywords=screw+machine+drill+bits
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[15:53:42] <archivist> what the hell is gold oxide finish
[15:53:52] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: i was looking for things like thermal conductivity, molar mass, density
[15:54:06] <zeeshan> but you're right, it highly depends on the composition
[15:54:28] <zeeshan> i estimated numbers for my simulation, will experimentally determine if its close today
[15:55:24] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: yeah that chart at engineering toolbox is a sweeping generalization
[15:55:59] <zeeshan> lol @ elongation of polyproylene
[15:56:10] <zeeshan> i remember when i was in technical college, we were testing it out
[15:56:15] <zeeshan> and it maxed out the tensile tester frame
[15:56:20] <zeeshan> still didnt break.
[15:56:42] <zeeshan> i think thats the one that rearranges polymer chan after necking
[15:56:47] <zeeshan> *chain
[15:57:23] <archivist> goes white to transparent
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[15:58:49] <CaptHindsight> http://www.pslc.ws/macrog/pp.htm a good site on the details of many polymers
[15:59:40] <dirty_d> is there something purpose made to mount a 1/4" shank boring bar in a boring head made for 1/2" bars?
[15:59:59] <dirty_d> archivist, probably something they made up
[16:01:12] <archivist> dirty_d, you have a lathe?
[16:01:25] <dirty_d> archivist, no just a mill
[16:01:56] <archivist> use the mill as a lathe to make an adapter :)
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[16:02:20] <dirty_d> archivist, would it be easier to just drill a hole in a 1/2" shaft with the mill?
[16:02:30] <dirty_d> i have a 1/2" shaft, not sure what its made of
[16:02:42] <JT-Shop> some boring heads have bushings
[16:02:45] <zeeshan> dirty_d: my tool holder came with a bushing
[16:02:47] <dirty_d> probably still have the order confirmation in my email from years ago
[16:02:53] <archivist> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tJ2aDzsnlA
[16:03:36] <dirty_d> i have been tempted to buy a r8 lathe chuck for the mill
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[16:03:43] <zeeshan> that is cool archivist
[16:03:43] <dirty_d> i dont really have much Z height though
[16:03:46] <zeeshan> chips naturally fall down :)
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[16:04:15] <archivist> there are some other vids using the trick, it does work rather well
[16:04:42] <archivist> I finish off arbours that way
[16:05:35] <dirty_d> i guess i wont be drilling into this with a HSS drill bit http://www.mcmaster.com/#98381a735/=wajklv
[16:06:44] <zeeshan> if you really need something precise in diameter
[16:06:49] <zeeshan> grab some drill rod
[16:06:52] <archivist> EDM into those
[16:06:59] <zeeshan> you can drill it
[16:07:07] <dirty_d> i dont think it really needs to be precise since its for a boring head
[16:07:23] <zeeshan> then you can just get some cold drawn rod
[16:07:51] <archivist> or any ground rod
[16:08:00] <dirty_d> yea, and if its over 1/2" i can stick it in a 1/2" R8 collet and mount a lathe tool in the vice
[16:08:06] <archivist> look in the scrap bin
[16:08:34] <dirty_d> zeeshan, what kind of drill rod? i see a bunch of different materials
[16:08:46] <dirty_d> http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-rods/=wajm69
[16:09:40] <dirty_d> so this stuff is soft enough to be machined, but then you can harden it so it can be used to machine with it?
[16:11:09] <archivist> drill rods and those pins are already hard
[16:12:01] <zeeshan> drill rods arent hard?
[16:12:14] <zeeshan> dirty_d: any of those will work, get whatever is cheapest
[16:12:22] <dirty_d> archivist, some of those are not hardened
[16:12:41] <zeeshan> drill rod is used to make your own custom tools
[16:12:43] <zeeshan> or even drill bits.
[16:12:45] <dirty_d> the HSS M2 is at B110
[16:12:52] <zeeshan> and then they're hardened to spec
[16:12:56] <dirty_d> but hardenable to C66
[16:13:04] <dirty_d> how hard is B110?
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[16:13:25] <dirty_d> i have no "feeling" for hardness ratings
[16:13:27] <archivist> pretty effin ard
[16:13:38] <zeeshan> b110 is like
[16:13:45] <zeeshan> 37 HRc
[16:13:56] <dirty_d> is it machinable with HSS?
[16:13:58] <zeeshan> yes
[16:14:09] <dirty_d> what is the limit for HSS?
[16:14:14] <dirty_d> like the practical limit
[16:14:21] <zeeshan> it all depends on your cutting temps
[16:14:24] <dirty_d> not the get one use of this tool limit
[16:14:26] <zeeshan> but around 50
[16:14:39] <archivist> look at the hardness quoted for the tooling you use
[16:15:06] <dirty_d> i still done have anything expensive enough to include that information, lol
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[16:15:31] <dirty_d> i figure im better off ruining cheap tools till i have a better feel for what im doing
[16:15:39] <zeeshan> here..
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[16:15:48] <zeeshan> you might get a better feeling for hardness if you compare it to stuff you've drilled
[16:16:11] <zeeshan> low carbon steel is like B70
[16:16:22] <zeeshan> in cold drawn form
[16:16:34] <archivist> and how quickly your drills go blunt or break
[16:16:49] <zeeshan> don't abuse your drills! :P
[16:16:52] <dirty_d> i drilled some 12L14 yesterday, taht stuff cuts like a hot knife through butter
[16:17:08] <zeeshan> thats a free machining steel
[16:17:09] <zeeshan> isnt it?
[16:17:13] <zeeshan> w/ lead
[16:17:21] <dirty_d> i even used an old dull rusty hacksaw to cut a piece off and it only took like a minute
[16:17:23] <dirty_d> yea
[16:17:27] <archivist> leaded steel is nice
[16:17:37] <zeeshan> can you weld leaded steel?
[16:17:41] <dirty_d> no
[16:17:42] <zeeshan> without getting sick
[16:17:45] <dirty_d> not from what ive read
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[16:17:55] <zeeshan> yea the metal store told me you couldnt
[16:18:01] <zeeshan> but havent worked with free machining steel before
[16:18:03] <dirty_d> i guess the lead makes it not weld very well
[16:18:20] <dirty_d> maybe the lead vaporises and kinda blows uop the puddle
[16:18:22] <zeeshan> id think it's suspectible to microfractures during welding
[16:18:24] <dirty_d> ive never tried to weld it
[16:19:12] <dirty_d> so i figure id be better off with this stuff http://www.mcmaster.com/#drill-rods/=wajr3d
[16:19:18] <dirty_d> its only B89
[16:20:06] <zeeshan> if you really dont need the precision
[16:20:14] <zeeshan> i think cold drawn will be cheaper
[16:20:18] <zeeshan> and be like +/- 0.003"
[16:20:31] <zeeshan> and easier to machine
[16:20:35] <dirty_d> i think with shipping onlinemetals.com will be more expensive
[16:20:52] <dirty_d> actually i guess mcmaster has taht too
[16:20:57] <zeeshan> http://www.mcmaster.com/#8920k155/=wajs1d
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[16:21:16] <dirty_d> hmm why not 12L14?
[16:21:38] <zeeshan> why not :)
[16:21:45] <zeeshan> gtg
[16:21:49] <dirty_d> later
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[16:43:42] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150313-haier-unveils-worlds-first-3d-printed-air-conditioner.html
[16:44:40] <ssi> I wonder how much of it is not 3d printed
[16:45:08] <CaptHindsight> i wonder if they built their own printers since 99% of the market place is just about making slow protos
[16:45:20] <CaptHindsight> ssi: it's the case thats printed
[16:45:39] <CaptHindsight> not the compressor, evaporator, condenser etc
[16:45:40] <ssi> not surprising
[16:46:07] <CaptHindsight> they are one of the first to use 3d printing for actual products
[16:46:10] <archivist> hypeware
[16:47:01] <CaptHindsight> it's been 30 years of just protos
[16:48:31] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/images2014/haier-unveils-worlds-first-3d-printed-air-conditioner-8.jpg rather than injection mold that they print it whatever size, shape and color
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[16:57:53] <dirty_d> this stuff looks pretty impressive http://www.mcmaster.com/#6818t21/=wak8yp
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[17:32:25] <dirty_d> hmm, i imagine it wouldnt be too hard to make a mini electric furnace for heat treating
[17:32:46] <ssi> probably not too hard
[17:32:55] <ssi> I need to put an electronic profile controller on mine
[17:32:55] <dirty_d> some nichrome wire coil inside a firebrick enclosure with a high temperature thermocouple
[17:33:02] <ssi> yep
[17:33:20] <dirty_d> and an arduino and SSR
[17:33:27] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4Eb0kYIcAAzwJU.jpg:large
[17:33:35] <archivist> or flame and just know your temperature colours
[17:33:46] <dirty_d> taht yours?
[17:33:51] <ssi> yep
[17:33:55] <archivist> cherry red and straw
[17:33:57] <dirty_d> where is the heat coming from?
[17:34:01] <ssi> inside?
[17:34:03] <ssi> I dunno :P
[17:34:05] <dirty_d> im very bad with colors
[17:34:06] <ssi> FMT
[17:34:22] <dirty_d> fmt?
[17:34:28] <ssi> fucking magic technology
[17:34:35] <dirty_d> lol
[17:34:46] <archivist> elements buried in the walls see the lines
[17:35:02] <dirty_d> yea and covered with some kinda high temp putty?
[17:35:26] <dirty_d> ssi, you bought that right?
[17:35:29] <ssi> yeah
[17:35:38] <dirty_d> ok
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[17:52:10] <zeeshan-laptop> hi :D
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[17:53:53] <zeeshan-laptop> CaptHindsight: help me find a k values for polyurethane
[17:53:54] <zeeshan-laptop> !
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[17:54:37] <zeeshan-laptop> i keep finding polyurethane foam freon filled 0.022 W / m*K
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[17:59:19] <SpeedEvil> 0.022 will be insulation foam
[17:59:31] <zeeshan-laptop> ya
[17:59:31] <SpeedEvil> are you looking for the raw densepolymer?
[17:59:40] <zeeshan-laptop> yes i have a film of it
[17:59:42] <zeeshan-laptop> 0.008" thick
[18:00:01] <SpeedEvil> As a first cut - it is the same as all organic polymers
[18:00:23] <SpeedEvil> http://www.electronics-cooling.com/2001/11/the-thermal-conductivity-of-rubbers-elastomers/
[18:00:37] <SpeedEvil> Polyurethane rubber 0.29 W/m/k
[18:00:43] <zeeshan-laptop> hmmm
[18:00:52] <zeeshan-laptop> that seems a lot more reasonable in comparison to .022
[18:01:07] <SpeedEvil> so, .2mm
[18:01:27] <SpeedEvil> 1450W/m^2/K
[18:01:49] <SpeedEvil> Obviously, the coupling to the film will matter enormously
[18:02:15] <SpeedEvil> Air interfaces can be as little as 5W/m^2/K
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[18:02:23] <zeeshan-laptop> coupling to the film?
[18:03:02] <SpeedEvil> If you have it between two bits of air - say - then the film will be at an essentially constant temp, and the only difference will be across the air boundaries
[18:03:08] <zeeshan-laptop> http://i.imgur.com/FMw425E.png
[18:03:17] <zeeshan-laptop> that is what im dealing with
[18:03:23] <zeeshan-laptop> i simulated using 0.022 W/m K
[18:03:35] <SpeedEvil> What are you trying to do?
[18:03:36] <zeeshan-laptop> copper is insulated on all 5 sides
[18:03:46] <zeeshan-laptop> stainless and film are exposed to ambient of 25c
[18:04:04] <SpeedEvil> Exposed how
[18:04:17] <zeeshan-laptop> film bonded to stainless using adhesive, stainless bonded to copper with a thermal paste
[18:04:20] <SpeedEvil> Unless it's fast flowing water - the film is irrelevant
[18:04:33] <zeeshan-laptop> exposed to air at 25c
[18:04:37] <zeeshan-laptop> natural convection
[18:04:39] <SpeedEvil> the film is irrelevant then
[18:04:54] <zeeshan-laptop> i need to know the surface temp of the film considering the whole assembly is initially at -10C
[18:05:08] <zeeshan-laptop> i simulated this and i found that after 25 min, the film is at -5C
[18:05:12] <zeeshan-laptop> which honestly sounds like bullocks
[18:05:28] <SpeedEvil> Condensation and freezing needs to be simulated
[18:05:39] <SpeedEvil> How large is this
[18:05:53] <SpeedEvil> 'infinite' ? (>5"
[18:06:19] <zeeshan-laptop> 4"x4"x1" thick (101.6mmx101.6x25.4mm)
[18:06:47] <zeeshan-laptop> my intentions are to keep the film at -10C
[18:06:58] <zeeshan-laptop> sorry i mean 0C
[18:07:03] <zeeshan-laptop> when its exposed to a 25C.
[18:07:05] <SpeedEvil> My naive expectation would be you'd expect of the order of 5*25K = 125W/m^2 initially
[18:07:21] <SpeedEvil> call it 100 then
[18:07:33] <SpeedEvil> So, at .01m^2, 1W or so.
[18:08:42] <SpeedEvil> Get a baggie 10*10cm. Fill it with enough crushed ice at 0C so it's 1cm thick.
[18:08:57] <SpeedEvil> place oninsulator
[18:09:01] <SpeedEvil> how long does it take to melt
[18:09:09] <zeeshan-laptop> forever
[18:09:10] <zeeshan-laptop> lol
[18:09:30] <zeeshan-laptop> i feel like the surface temp of the film when exposed to 25c
[18:09:32] <zeeshan-laptop> will rapidly drop.
[18:09:42] <SpeedEvil> Well, yes.
[18:09:57] <zeeshan-laptop> but the thru thickness might be at a temp gradient
[18:10:07] <zeeshan-laptop> between -10C and 25C
[18:10:29] <SpeedEvil> It's not.
[18:10:29] <zeeshan-laptop> currently i have it sitting in the freezer, and i have thermocouples on the block
[18:10:37] <zeeshan-laptop> and the film surface
[18:10:42] <zeeshan-laptop> just using tape to hold them in place
[18:10:52] <zeeshan-laptop> playing the waiting game :p
[18:10:57] <zeeshan-laptop> what's not?
[18:11:03] <SpeedEvil> The film will initially cool by around 40kW/m^2
[18:11:15] <zeeshan-laptop> that much?
[18:11:28] <SpeedEvil> But that is utterly dominated by losses in the air - which is 100W/m^2 or so
[18:11:29] <zeeshan-laptop> that is a significant flux
[18:11:44] <SpeedEvil> So it basically never happens unless you pour warm water on it
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[18:12:29] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan-laptop: polyurethane foam or?
[18:12:38] <SpeedEvil> That is - if you considered the heat-flow through the film at -10C and 25C at each side of it purely, without considering the surroundings.
[18:12:51] <zeeshan-laptop> CaptHindsight: got the value aleady
[18:12:52] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: straight dense polymer
[18:13:27] <zeeshan-laptop> i have to deal with this bs
[18:13:32] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan-laptop: this basically reflects my experience - it takes a several hours to fully melt a half inch thick frozen thing at 25C
[18:13:37] <zeeshan-laptop> because i need to keep the sample cool while it's under the 3d scope
[18:14:15] <zeeshan-laptop> its a shape memory film
[18:14:22] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan-laptop: Which is about 3MJ/m^2
[18:14:25] <zeeshan-laptop> so im trying to "freeze" the deformation i do on it
[18:14:34] <zeeshan-laptop> until its on the scope
[18:14:41] <zeeshan-laptop> then goal is to expose it to ir heat
[18:14:58] <zeeshan-laptop> varying it to control the temp rise on the film
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[18:15:26] <zeeshan-laptop> SpeedEvil: im not worried about the ice melting
[18:15:35] <zeeshan-laptop> im worried about the surface temp of the ice exposed to atmosphere :P
[18:15:39] <zeeshan-laptop> or the surface temp of the insulator
[18:16:08] <zeeshan-laptop> like im thinking of a flask holding liquid n2
[18:16:32] <zeeshan-laptop> liquid n2 is at like -100 and outside you can touch with your hands and its warm
[18:16:36] <zeeshan-laptop> relatively warm.
[18:16:39] <SpeedEvil> The polyurethane film is not at all an insulator
[18:16:55] <zeeshan-laptop> its not?
[18:17:29] <zeeshan-laptop> .29 W/mK vs like 401W/mK
[18:17:33] <zeeshan-laptop> hell of a difference! :P
[18:17:39] <SpeedEvil> It is as good an insulator as half an inch of stainless steel.
[18:18:15] <zeeshan-laptop> ss is what
[18:18:25] <zeeshan-laptop> 22W/mK
[18:18:39] <zeeshan-laptop> 16
[18:18:52] <CaptHindsight> http://3dprint.com/50777/molecular-3d-printer/ http://www.sciencemag.org/content/347/6227/1190
[18:19:03] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: saw that - neat
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[18:19:18] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: now they just need to combine it with a proper 3d printer, and we have a replicator!
[18:19:25] <SpeedEvil> (no, I know, not really)
[18:19:50] <SpeedEvil> 'tea, earl-grey, hot'
[18:19:53] <zeeshan-laptop> haha
[18:19:57] <zeeshan-laptop> that is cool
[18:19:58] <SpeedEvil> 'Time remaining: 3994 years'
[18:20:07] <SpeedEvil> Buffering
[18:21:00] <zeeshan-laptop> i finally ordered some ads1220
[18:21:04] <zeeshan-laptop> i couldnt get samples :{
[18:21:08] <zeeshan-laptop> rejection by TI
[18:21:26] <SpeedEvil> Why?
[18:21:27] <SpeedEvil> Odd
[18:21:31] <SpeedEvil> I've never had a problem
[18:21:39] <zeeshan-laptop> no idea , said to remove it from cart
[18:21:45] <zeeshan-laptop> even though i gave university email
[18:21:59] <SpeedEvil> Did you have >>1 thing in there?
[18:22:10] <zeeshan-laptop> no
[18:22:11] <CaptHindsight> application for samples: leveling table legs
[18:22:13] <zeeshan-laptop> it had 1
[18:22:20] <zeeshan-laptop> and then it told me to remove it
[18:22:24] <zeeshan-laptop> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrvhkhadL5g
[18:22:34] <zeeshan-laptop> btw this guy shows the use of the ads1220
[18:22:38] <zeeshan-laptop> and its accuracy
[18:23:12] <zeeshan-laptop> hes reading 1000.59 mV +/- 0.01 mV
[18:23:16] <zeeshan-laptop> pretty damn good.
[18:23:26] <zeeshan-laptop> hes getting a bit of drift
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[18:23:34] <SpeedEvil> yes - the reference is not 'that great'
[18:23:37] <CaptHindsight> with proper board layout and power supply
[18:23:40] <zeeshan-laptop> for me its not a big deal
[18:23:46] <SpeedEvil> but you'll really want to do it with ratiometric mode
[18:23:51] <zeeshan-laptop> cause ill be using the 5v
[18:23:56] <zeeshan-laptop> for the bridge as the reference
[18:23:56] <SpeedEvil> in which case the reference becomes less of an issue
[18:24:06] <zeeshan-laptop> does the 5v need to be supper stable?
[18:24:10] <zeeshan-laptop> for bridge excitiation
[18:24:13] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan-laptop: 'no'
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[18:24:15] <zeeshan-laptop> good!
[18:24:26] <zeeshan-laptop> cause the adc will proportionally change
[18:24:28] <SpeedEvil> you probably want it very stable over the period of the sample - I haven't checked.
[18:24:29] <zeeshan-laptop> yea?
[18:24:38] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ti.com/lit/df/tidrbw9/tidrbw9.pdf Layer Plot for reference design
[18:24:46] <SpeedEvil> I would use a low-noise, thermally isolated LDO to power it, with a seperated power plane
[18:24:59] <zeeshan-laptop> so should i be using a rf02 for the exicitation?
[18:25:36] <SpeedEvil> I mean to power the chip
[18:26:43] <zeeshan-laptop> well its got 2 suppler voltages
[18:26:46] <zeeshan-laptop> analog suppler and digital supply
[18:26:54] <zeeshan-laptop> are you talkig about the digital supply voltage of 3.3V?
[18:27:05] <zeeshan-laptop> *supply
[18:27:18] <SpeedEvil> the analog supply
[18:27:31] <zeeshan-laptop> analog supply powers the chip and the bridge
[18:27:45] <SpeedEvil> yes - including the analog side of the ADC and the bridge
[18:27:46] <zeeshan-laptop> will need to calculate the current level in the bridge to see if itll blow up rf02
[18:27:50] <SpeedEvil> it's the noise on that you care about
[18:28:04] <zeeshan-laptop> but they put a 0.1uF cap in parallel with it
[18:28:07] <zeeshan-laptop> to reduce the noise
[18:28:24] <zeeshan-laptop> so i dont know if it really needs a preicision voltage ref in that case
[18:28:43] <zeeshan-laptop> ill try it as is, with a 0.1uF cap and if it gives me issues, ill switch to a precision ref
[18:28:58] <zeeshan-laptop> +/- .01 mV is excellent for my application
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[18:30:03] <SpeedEvil> It certainly doesn't care about a precision reference in ratiometric mode
[18:30:23] <SpeedEvil> It may care about noise - but I'd need to look that up to see how much it cares.
[18:30:40] <zeeshan-laptop> that works out to like +/- 0.5 lb
[18:30:43] <SpeedEvil> Getting the supply stable to ~.01mV or so during a conversion is in principle not that hard at all
[18:30:51] <zeeshan-laptop> when measuring between 0 - 10000lb
[18:31:33] <zeeshan-laptop> +/- 2.2 N from 0 to 45000N
[18:31:43] <zeeshan-laptop> for my over the pond friends
[18:32:42] <zeeshan-laptop> im using a quarter bridge setup with temperature compensatio. so two strain gauges perpendicular to each other
[18:32:48] <archivist> what is than in stone :)
[18:32:50] <zeeshan-laptop> with equal length wires
[18:32:56] <archivist> that
[18:32:59] <zeeshan-laptop> i think itll work out well
[18:33:18] <zeeshan-laptop> im gonna try blowing some sparks near by and see if it induces noise
[18:33:29] <zeeshan-laptop> with a regular lpf and common mode filter
[18:33:30] <zeeshan-laptop> noise
[18:33:36] <zeeshan-laptop> ive never heard of stone units lol
[18:33:56] <SpeedEvil> stone=14lb
[18:34:17] <archivist> humans are measured in stones
[18:34:31] <zeeshan-laptop> sounds like caveman units
[18:34:49] <archivist> a 7 stone weakling
[18:35:03] <zeeshan-laptop> hehe
[18:35:36] <zeeshan-laptop> that agilent u1237A meter looks sexy
[18:35:39] <zeeshan-laptop> but damn its like 700$ new
[18:36:10] <zeeshan-laptop> i love the oled screen on it
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[18:52:00] <Cromaglious> I'm 13 stone 8
[18:53:43] * Deejay is below 12 stone
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[19:09:03] <dirty_d> is it that easy? lol http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kiln-Furnace-heating-element-Resistance-wire-220V-5000W-/220952869584?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3371d13ad0
[19:09:08] <dirty_d> just need some firebricks
[19:09:36] <JT-Shop> soft fire bricks not the ones you find in a hardware store
[19:09:52] <JT-Shop> look up Dudley's Element Paper
[19:11:16] <archivist> and a controller and thermocouple arrangement and suitable box
[19:12:20] <JT-Shop> and if you use a SSR make sure you get the proper heat sink for it
[19:12:44] <JT-Shop> 3 more center sections and I'm calling it a day
[19:12:45] <ssi> JT-Shop: any ideas on sourcing firebricks locally?
[19:12:50] <ssi> I get them from mcmaster but they're unholy expensive
[19:13:10] <JT-Shop> budget casting supply might have them
[19:13:18] <JT-Shop> usually they are cheaper by the case
[19:13:41] <JT-Shop> there is another place hot something or other
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[19:14:35] <dirty_d> they are called soft firebricks?
[19:14:55] <JT-Shop> you have to pay attention to the temperature rating
[19:15:05] <ssi> the ones I get from mcmaster are 2300F or 2600F
[19:15:13] <ssi> my heat treat furnace btw tops out at 2200F
[19:16:34] <dirty_d> this doesnt say soft http://www.mcmaster.com/#firebricks/=wam12v
[19:16:37] <JT-Shop> http://www.sheffield-pottery.com/SOFT-BRICKS-Insulating-Firebrick-s/372.htm
[19:17:14] <JT-Shop> those are the hard ones
[19:17:29] <JT-Shop> the soft ones you can shape and cut with a hacksaw blade
[19:17:45] <ssi> those from mcmaster I cut with a hand saw easily
[19:17:52] <dirty_d> Heat Flow Rate (K-Factor): 1.7-2.2 @ 1500� F
[19:17:58] <JT-Shop> ok then they are the soft ones
[19:18:09] <dirty_d> 1.7-2.2 Watts?
[19:18:10] * JT-Shop gets back to welding
[19:18:12] <archivist> and be careful abiut the controller/thermocouple, see the small print 400deg C max http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REX-C100-Digital-PID-Temperature-Control-40A-SSR-K-Thermocouple-Heat-Sink-/201303944485
[19:18:41] <dirty_d> id just make one
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[19:19:12] <archivist> and those really cheap ones are a bit crap, I got a non worker
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[19:30:35] <JT-Shop> I use this one http://www.mcmaster.com/#type-k-thermocouples/=wam7sa
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[19:38:34] <ssi> zeeshan: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAF_tjWsAEDBBX.jpg:large
[19:38:45] <ssi> zeeshan: thoughts on running a delrin v-wheel in an extrusion t-slot like that?
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[19:46:15] <zeeshan-laptop> SpeedEvil: sucess.
[19:46:20] <zeeshan-laptop> block temp -10C
[19:46:24] <ssi> 15:38 < ssi> zeeshan: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAF_tjWsAEDBBX.jpg:large
[19:46:24] <ssi> 15:38 < ssi> zeeshan: thoughts on running a delrin v-wheel in an extrusion t-slot like that?
[19:46:25] <SpeedEvil> :)
[19:46:32] <zeeshan-laptop> surface temp of film -8~ c
[19:46:35] <zeeshan-laptop> after 2 min
[19:46:55] <zeeshan-laptop> after 10 min its around 0C
[19:46:59] <zeeshan-laptop> block temp around -5C
[19:47:04] <zeeshan-laptop> room temp is around 30C
[19:47:19] <SpeedEvil> So now do the comutation of heat capacity of your block, and there you have a nice watts/temp curve
[19:47:21] <zeeshan-laptop> i can freeze the smp specimen and process it
[19:47:45] <zeeshan-laptop> ssi will work good id think
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[19:48:28] <zeeshan-laptop> especially for the tolerances youre going for
[19:48:59] <ssi> :D
[19:49:10] <ssi> I'm thinking the gantry will be a single piece of 40x80mm solid wall extrusion
[19:49:11] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan-laptop: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Yvcizt83DA
[19:49:19] <SpeedEvil> Cryogenic machining: Custom rubber parts
[19:49:20] <ssi> I think that'll be stiff enough for a 5' span
[19:49:39] <zeeshan-laptop> SpeedEvil: lol
[19:49:47] <zeeshan-laptop> im using an aluminum block and not a bath
[19:49:49] <zeeshan-laptop> cause the 3d scope is like 100k
[19:49:56] <SpeedEvil> How to mill rubber
[19:49:57] <zeeshan-laptop> i dont want any water anywhere near it
[19:50:34] <zeeshan-laptop> http://i.imgur.com/j2CQQvw.png
[19:50:39] <zeeshan-laptop> end goal is this
[19:50:55] <zeeshan-laptop> to measure the transformation of that shape
[19:50:59] <zeeshan-laptop> as temp changes
[19:51:03] <zeeshan-laptop> with smp it full recovers
[19:51:11] <zeeshan-laptop> so i can get shape fixity, shape recovery curves
[19:51:29] <SpeedEvil> What - it's a deformed square?
[19:51:29] <zeeshan-laptop> as a function of temperature, indenter geometry, indenter load, depth
[19:51:29] <zeeshan-laptop> etc
[19:51:31] <LatheBuilder> doing diy hardness testing?
[19:51:33] <SpeedEvil> into a pyramid?
[19:51:48] <zeeshan-laptop> speed that was done in metal using a standard pyramidal indenter
[19:51:57] <zeeshan-laptop> metal is easy cause it retains its shape
[19:52:22] <zeeshan-laptop> but my film changes properties as a function of temp
[19:52:42] <zeeshan-laptop> so ive been working ona method to capture data
[19:52:52] <zeeshan-laptop> LatheBuilder: no this is my thesis project
[19:53:05] <zeeshan-laptop> which ive been struggling for the last 8 months
[19:53:10] <LatheBuilder> cool. zeshan-laptop
[19:53:15] <zeeshan-laptop> and finally im at a point where i think i will have a good experimental method
[19:53:18] <zeeshan-laptop> to do what im trying to do
[19:53:30] <zeeshan-laptop> without anyone questioning the validity of the data
[19:53:54] <zeeshan-laptop> i just need to figure out if i should use tc probes for surface temp measurement and assume uniform temp
[19:54:04] <zeeshan-laptop> by placing a couple of them strategically
[19:54:08] <zeeshan-laptop> or use an IR cam
[19:54:25] <zeeshan-laptop> a lot of people in the lab say the ir cam is no good
[19:55:50] <LatheBuilder> how about tempil sticks?
[19:56:15] <LatheBuilder> forgot to ask: what temp range?
[19:56:32] <zeeshan-laptop> 0 to 30C
[19:56:35] <zeeshan-laptop> maybe 40C.
[19:56:39] <zeeshan-laptop> its a very small range
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[19:58:40] <zeeshan-laptop> bbl
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[20:25:13] <ssi> I'm doing a solidworks simulation on the 40x80mm extrusion to see how much it sags over a 5' span
[20:25:32] <ssi> sw suggests that under its own weight it'll sag 9.5e-6m in the center
[20:25:38] <ssi> which is what, 9.5um? :P
[20:25:38] <andypugh> zeeshan: There are standard techniques for measuring rubbery hardness, such as Shore.
[20:26:35] <andypugh> But you might find it easier to measure force/displacement of the indenter rather than indent width. (mount the sample on a load cell)
[20:27:11] <andypugh> ssi: Best go to the next size up then, that’s almost an encoder count
[20:27:25] <ssi> with 20N applied at the center (about 2kgf) I get 15um
[20:27:30] <ssi> andypugh: for my purposes it's FINE
[20:28:29] <ssi> I need a laser height tolerance of something like 1mm heh
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[20:34:02] <ssi> also means I can make the long rails out of a single piece of this 40x80mm extrusion, and put a single support in the middle, and that'll probably be fine
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[20:40:59] <CaptHindsight> some t-slot suppliers have a ~1 deg angle on the outer face so that it acts like a lock washer when compressed by the fasteners
[20:42:08] <CaptHindsight> I wonder how much the outer face will flex when loaded with that type
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[21:03:21] <furrywolf> ok, which one of you louts stole my heatsink compound?
[21:03:38] <ssi> wasn't me!
[21:03:53] <furrywolf> I've spent 20mins looking for it now! heh
[21:03:55] <Cromaglious> me!!!!! MEEEEEEEEEeeeeeeeeeee@!!!!
[21:04:19] <Cromaglious> seems to working on the dogs hemeroids
[21:04:58] <furrywolf> I'm not even sure I need it... it's mounting the ignition module in my distributor. it didn't look like it had any originally, but it looks like it should have some...
[21:05:10] <Cromaglious> it needs some
[21:05:19] <Cromaglious> what make?
[21:05:27] <furrywolf> subaru
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[21:05:45] <furrywolf> I took about two distributors and neither looks like it had any factory, but it just looks like it should. :)
[21:05:51] <furrywolf> s/about/apart
[21:05:54] <Cromaglious> ford, chevy do... I never had mine off on my GL Subaru
[21:06:38] <furrywolf> my shaft has about 3/16" of play... swapping its electronics into another dist I got that has excellent bearings but doesn't spark.
[21:07:14] <Cromaglious> someone before I got it hammered in allen wrenches into the inner CV roll pin holes and I could get them out..
[21:07:25] <furrywolf> lol
[21:07:25] <furrywolf> what year?
[21:07:37] <Cromaglious> 84 i think
[21:07:45] <Cromaglious> couldnt'
[21:07:50] <furrywolf> roundish body or boxy body?
[21:07:57] <Cromaglious> roundish
[21:08:11] <furrywolf> so 84-and-down, then.
[21:08:15] <furrywolf> I have an 83 and an 84... working on the 84 now.
[21:08:23] <furrywolf> working on the 83 now
[21:08:31] * furrywolf is typing with gloves on, reducing accuracy
[21:08:40] <Cromaglious> great car, pulls F350's just fine
[21:09:13] <Cromaglious> ok, I had to use a snack strap to get a little spring action going
[21:09:15] <furrywolf> lol, I pulled a '80s f350 with a cabover camper up a hill the other day.
[21:09:22] <Cromaglious> snatch
[21:09:37] <furrywolf> put it in low range. :)
[21:09:44] <Cromaglious> 2wd only
[21:09:55] <furrywolf> ah
[21:10:02] <furrywolf> my '84 had that problem. I fixed it.
[21:10:07] <Cromaglious> didn't have low
[21:10:30] <Cromaglious> I really want a 82 rabbit deisel pickup
[21:10:42] <furrywolf> swapped the 2wd tranny for a late-'80s 5speed 4x4 dual-range... and a matching rear diff.
[21:11:06] <furrywolf> 2wd can be fixed!
[21:11:44] <Cromaglious> nice thing about Subarus everything swaps with everything else pretty much
[21:12:19] <Cromaglious> I was newly divorced and just got out of the Air Force and broke
[21:13:48] <furrywolf> I also swapped in a 140hp motor at the same time. :)
[21:14:13] <furrywolf> I think I know who stole my thermal grease... I helped someone put in a ford ignition module a while ago...
[21:14:27] <furrywolf> a ford escort distributor re-machined to fit a subaru motor, to be exact.
[21:15:20] <Cromaglious> yep Shitscorts REALLY need thermal paste
[21:16:09] <Cromaglious> I know, I've replaced the module 5 times before I got smart and chucked the air cooled coil and used a oil cooled coil off a 84 dodge
[21:16:26] <furrywolf> subaru didn't sell the car with a dist, so you can't get them, but the motor has a place to bolt one on... so you do a bit of grinding on a ford escort dist, make some brackets, and use that...
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[21:17:12] <furrywolf> he wanted to swap in the newer motor, but wanted to stick with carb+dist, not eft+coil packs...
[21:17:43] <XXCoder> pancake cnc https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=f3Q8nbtRNT0
[21:18:05] <XXCoder> of course kickatarter for it LOL
[21:18:54] * furrywolf wonders if antisieze makes good thermal grease
[21:18:57] <XXCoder> seriously it could be adopted for glue
[21:19:14] -!- syyl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
[21:19:25] <XXCoder> or some material that would harden
[21:20:19] <furrywolf> those are all burnt. clever use of burning for color, but...
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[21:22:14] <zeeshan> andypugh: hardness isnt the most importamt property im measuring
[21:22:20] <zeeshan> im measuring shape fixity and recovery
[21:22:48] <andypugh> You could cycle an indentor up and down.
[21:22:56] <furrywolf> "I have used Permatex anti-seize compound (aluminum based) as a cpu heatsink compound. And it works fine. I wanted to test whether it can be used as a substitute to silicone heatsink compound. I didn't see a rise in temps from the cpu thermistor."
[21:23:07] <zeeshan> andypugh: to measure the depth ?
[21:23:57] <andypugh> zeeshan: I once had to build a machine to test the properties of a very visco-elastic material. At the top train-rate my platten was doing 0 to 50mph in 10mm.
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[21:24:27] <andypugh> If you look at the Mooney-Rivlin parameters in the RADIOSS code, those are my numbers.
[21:24:51] * furrywolf wants some things made of very viscoelastic material
[21:25:22] <zeeshan> haha 0 to 50 mph!
[21:25:28] <zeeshan> andypugh: let me show you whats going on.
[21:25:40] <zeeshan> i hope im not repeating and boring you :P
[21:26:01] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/j2CQQvw.png
[21:26:05] <andypugh> It was a very scary machine to click the mouse button on….
[21:26:09] <zeeshan> using one type of indenter geometry i get that.
[21:26:16] <zeeshan> with the 3d scope i can get depth measurements within 4 micron
[21:26:35] <andypugh> Vicker pyramidal diamond?
[21:26:40] <zeeshan> yea thats one type
[21:27:00] <zeeshan> i verified the depth measuring capability by making conical shapes, and hemispherical shapes in metal
[21:27:02] <zeeshan> using a mill
[21:27:10] <zeeshan> and compared the results, they were within 0.04mm
[21:27:17] <zeeshan> i think the dro on the mill likely has more error
[21:27:54] <zeeshan> this video you'll need to fast forward through to see the significance of it
[21:27:59] <zeeshan> its hard to see whats up without fast forwarding.
[21:28:32] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKFkEFeXjOY
[21:29:00] <zeeshan> that change isn't elastic recoery
[21:29:03] <zeeshan> its a property of smp
[21:29:17] <zeeshan> im trying characterize it
[21:29:30] <zeeshan> through shape fixity and shape recovery
[21:29:48] <zeeshan> by varying load, indenter geometry, indenter size, temperature
[21:29:57] <andypugh> smp?
[21:29:59] <zeeshan> the last parameter and the most important -- temperature
[21:30:02] <zeeshan> is what is the hard part
[21:30:04] <zeeshan> shape memory polymer
[21:30:15] <andypugh> ok
[21:30:46] <zeeshan> thats why im trying to do my indentation at a temperature where it essentially freezes deformation
[21:31:11] <zeeshan> and keep it on an aluminum block to have some control on the rate of heating
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[21:32:01] <andypugh> I can see that the problem is likely to be getting a uniform temperature
[21:32:07] <zeeshan> yes
[21:32:14] <zeeshan> this is why i keep on telling my supervisor
[21:32:20] <zeeshan> i'd really like an IR cam
[21:32:20] <andypugh> You possibly want to use the smallest possible sample size
[21:32:35] <zeeshan> smallest sample size relative to aluminum block ?
[21:32:40] <andypugh> And maybe need to work in different temperature baths.
[21:32:48] <zeeshan> i cant put it in a bath
[21:33:00] <zeeshan> cause they dont want any liquids or chance of leakages on the scope
[21:33:02] <andypugh> You can. You just might not want to :-)
[21:33:02] <zeeshan> which is understandable
[21:34:05] <zeeshan> when you measure the shore hardness of a viscoelastic material
[21:34:13] <andypugh> Tricky, because a bath is probably the only way to get heat into and out of the sample fast enough.
[21:34:13] <zeeshan> can you figure out it's stress strain curve from it?
[21:34:27] <zeeshan> well im using a fan
[21:34:29] <andypugh> Shore-hardness is rather crude
[21:34:33] <zeeshan> and a 28C room temp
[21:34:38] <ssi> zeeshan: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAgksmWcAAA035.jpg:large
[21:34:40] <zeeshan> the transition temperature of recovery is around 21C
[21:34:51] <andypugh> I think Shore is based on bounce-height?
[21:35:03] <zeeshan> oh youre right
[21:35:06] <ssi> zeeshan: that's 5x10'
[21:35:15] <zeeshan> ssi whats the size of that extrusion
[21:35:20] <ssi> 40x80mm
[21:35:20] <zeeshan> the main frame
[21:35:22] <zeeshan> not legs
[21:35:27] <ssi> legs are 40x40
[21:36:22] <ssi> so every unsupported span of rail is 5'
[21:36:38] <ssi> I don't think I'll have too much of a deflection problem
[21:36:40] <zeeshan> whats the heaviest material youre planning to put on it?
[21:36:48] <ssi> MDF
[21:36:57] <zeeshan> roughly how much weight?
[21:37:01] <ssi> 70lb
[21:37:04] <ssi> plus the weight of the bed itself
[21:37:16] <ssi> but the weight of the bed and material isn't going to rest on the motion rails
[21:37:23] <zeeshan> andypugh: help me design my experiment!
[21:37:37] <ssi> the legs are inside the frame because I'm going to make the bed run vertically on the tslots of the six legs with delrin V wheels
[21:37:50] <ssi> and the bed itself will be supported by four acme screws
[21:37:53] <ssi> maybe 1" screws
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[21:38:28] <ssi> I'll likely add some lower frame stringers to box up the legs
[21:38:34] <zeeshan> yea
[21:38:45] <zeeshan> the leg to table ratio
[21:38:55] <zeeshan> makes it look like it'll move the entire assembly
[21:39:01] <ssi> it probably will
[21:39:05] <ssi> I had that issue with the last table
[21:39:13] <ssi> legs were too skinny and flexy, and I had a lot of shake
[21:39:13] <zeeshan> maybe you can put the legs on a flat plate
[21:39:17] <zeeshan> and bolt it down to the concrete?
[21:39:27] <zeeshan> or truss them
[21:39:29] <zeeshan> or rib them
[21:39:29] <ssi> I'm not buying a 5x10' sheet of plate :)
[21:39:37] <zeeshan> no i mean
[21:39:38] <ssi> truss maybe
[21:39:41] <zeeshan> like a 4"x4" plate
[21:39:45] <ssi> oh yeah perhaps
[21:39:46] <zeeshan> with 4 holes in it to bolt to concrete floor
[21:39:49] <ssi> but that's not gonna improve the shake
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[21:39:54] <ssi> unless I trus them
[21:39:55] <zeeshan> yea itll flex
[21:40:02] <zeeshan> you know you dont even need anything fancy
[21:40:06] <ssi> just a diagonal
[21:40:07] <zeeshan> if you wanna keep it cheap and lightweight
[21:40:11] <zeeshan> you can just use threaded rod
[21:40:12] <ssi> cables maybe
[21:40:14] <zeeshan> cables
[21:40:14] <zeeshan> eya
[21:40:39] <zeeshan> youve got the main table cross section orientatend in the right way
[21:40:39] <ssi> but in order to use cables I have to have lower stringers
[21:40:41] <zeeshan> to minimize bending
[21:40:43] <ssi> or else it'll just pull the legs inward
[21:40:52] <ssi> yeah that was intentional
[21:40:57] <andypugh> I think you need to at least calculate the time needed for your sample to warm up and cool down to a constant through-thickness temperature.
[21:41:39] <andypugh> Perhaps start with a big lump with thermocouples embedded in it to different depths. (though the thermocouples themselves will conduct heat in, so use the thinnest you can find)
[21:41:57] <zeeshan> embedded where?
[21:42:04] <zeeshan> the only place they'll fit is inside the aluminum block
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[21:42:19] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/FMw425E.png
[21:42:21] <zeeshan> this is the assembly
[21:42:34] <andypugh> Then you can scale that down with a bit of FEM to your actual sample size. If the time to equilibrium is comparable to the recovery time then you don’t actually know what the specimen temperature that you are testing is.
[21:42:38] <zeeshan> whats missing is the thermal paste between copper/aluminum - stainless interface
[21:42:43] <zeeshan> and adhesive between film and stainless
[21:43:39] <andypugh> I actually suspect that the high thermal mass is exactly what you don’t want.
[21:43:40] <zeeshan> andypugh: i was hoping to log the surface temperature as a function of time
[21:43:55] <zeeshan> and follow the shape recovery
[21:43:59] <zeeshan> and shape fixity
[21:44:11] <zeeshan> and plot them against each other
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[21:44:19] <zeeshan> so that even if the temperature changes too quickly
[21:44:24] <andypugh> But with heat soaking through the sample from below, and a thin sample, perhaps the IR thing is the way to go.
[21:44:37] <zeeshan> i should be able to show how fixity/recovery is a function of it?
[21:45:54] <zeeshan> i like your idea about keeping the sample size small
[21:46:00] <zeeshan> so i can assume uniform temperature
[21:46:08] <zeeshan> but id like to monitor the surface temp
[21:46:13] <zeeshan> to prove it actually is at that temp
[21:46:47] <zeeshan> the omega thermocouples we are using have a crap response time but they use i think micro currents
[21:46:55] <zeeshan> to prevent heating on the tc
[21:47:00] <zeeshan> *of the tc
[21:47:56] <zeeshan> ssi im looking at your drawing
[21:48:19] <zeeshan> i dont think the legs will pull in if you tension them with wire
[21:48:49] <ssi> I can't imagine why they wouldn't
[21:50:22] <zeeshan> ok i see it
[21:50:27] <zeeshan> the other legs bottoms will pull in
[21:50:31] <ssi> yep
[21:50:34] <zeeshan> in their corresponding plane
[21:50:44] <ssi> the center one may not, if you tension evenly from the bottom to the outer clusters
[21:50:46] <zeeshan> you can fix like this:
[21:50:47] <ssi> but the outer legs will
[21:52:01] <zeeshan> im thinking of what im tthinking
[21:52:05] <ssi> hahah
[21:52:06] <zeeshan> will cancel out the effects of the stringers lol
[21:52:09] <zeeshan> lol
[21:52:12] <zeeshan> so silly
[21:52:22] <ssi> if the stringers are there then I can tension with cables
[21:52:29] <ssi> because I'll be pulling against a solid beam in any case
[21:52:31] <zeeshan> i think this might work.
[21:52:54] <zeeshan> purely conceptual
[21:53:33] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/YHSW9DP.png
[21:53:52] <zeeshan> could you use regular 6 feet threaded rod
[21:54:07] <zeeshan> to do what the bottom thing is doing
[21:54:09] <ssi> what's the blue
[21:54:20] <zeeshan> some sort of threaded rod
[21:54:31] <zeeshan> on a coupling nut
[21:54:31] <ssi> you can't push outward with threaded rod!
[21:54:49] <zeeshan> you can
[21:54:56] <ssi> ever have sex drunk? :P
[21:54:56] <zeeshan> with 2 threaded rods on a coupling nut
[21:56:11] <zeeshan> i dunno even why im thinking of a stupid threaded rod
[21:56:21] <ssi> I dunno either :D
[21:56:23] <zeeshan> just use chap flatbar
[21:56:26] <zeeshan> cheap
[21:56:30] <zeeshan> or square tube
[21:56:30] <ssi> angle would be better
[21:56:33] <ssi> or square
[21:56:34] <ssi> or extrusion
[21:56:44] <ssi> something that won't deflect in compression like flatbar or rod would
[21:56:45] <Deejay> gn8
[21:56:58] <zeeshan> yea flatbar will want to buckle
[21:57:29] <zeeshan> angle or u channel or square
[21:57:34] <zeeshan> but square might be a pain to mount
[21:57:43] <zeeshan> u channel or angle should be easy
[21:57:44] <ssi> I'll probably just use 20x20mm extrusion
[21:57:53] <ssi> lower stringers to box it up
[21:57:56] <ssi> that ought to be enough
[21:58:05] <zeeshan> yep no need for wire
[21:58:07] <ssi> if the squares are still flexy, I'll pull cables across the diagonals
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[21:59:37] <zeeshan> i think you need reinfocement
[21:59:39] <zeeshan> at the middle legs
[21:59:45] <zeeshan> in the 5 foot direction
[21:59:46] <ssi> in what direction
[21:59:58] <ssi> well the bed will provide some of that
[22:00:08] <ssi> I can't run a stringer across at the top of the frame
[22:00:12] <ssi> because that'd interfere with the bed
[22:00:20] <ssi> I'm drawing up the bed now
[22:00:31] <zeeshan> i hope youre using weldments
[22:00:34] <zeeshan> and making your life easier
[22:00:35] <zeeshan> :-)
[22:00:36] <ssi> I'm not :P
[22:00:39] <zeeshan> haha
[22:00:44] <ssi> weldments give me shit
[22:00:52] <cnc1> hi
[22:01:03] <ssi> I may go back and redo some with weldments
[22:01:10] <zeeshan> whatever works dude
[22:01:16] <ssi> I'm doing everything as separate discrete assemblies so it'll be easy to redo
[22:02:01] <zeeshan> im gonna eat and come back to harass andypugh
[22:03:13] <andypugh> zeeshan: Thermocouples create a tiny voltage. They don’t produce any heat
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[22:03:28] <zeeshan> andypugh: the biasing resistor
[22:03:35] <zeeshan> causes currents to flow i think
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[22:04:04] <andypugh> Yes, but if there is any effect it is to cool the sample. (Peltier effect)
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[22:05:11] <zeeshan> i really have one main thing i need to get out of the way before i can even think this approach to measuring parameters is ok.
[22:05:32] <zeeshan> basically im going to cool the assembly, bring it within 1 min to the indenter, (will have a preset load)
[22:06:05] <zeeshan> let the indenter sit in there for 1 minute to let the indentor tip come to relatively the same temp as the cooled assembly
[22:06:12] <zeeshan> then move it to the 3d scope and measure.
[22:06:34] <zeeshan> if i dont observe any strain change on the scope for the first 5 minutes
[22:06:47] <zeeshan> i know im good to go, if i do notice change, this entire procedure is a fail
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[22:07:23] <andypugh> http://www.micro-epsilon.com/displacement-position-sensors/laser-sensor/optoNCDT_1700LL/index.html
[22:07:24] <zeeshan> all while there are thermocouples on this sample skin
[22:08:00] <zeeshan> andypugh: im assuming this type of sensor i'd point at the tip of the indent
[22:08:07] <zeeshan> and measure relative to the undeformed film?
[22:08:12] <andypugh> Aye, that would be the idea
[22:08:18] <zeeshan> how would i get the shape?
[22:08:26] <andypugh> You wouldn’t
[22:08:34] <zeeshan> like for a spherical indenter, i think due to the anisotropy of the film
[22:08:34] <cnc1> zeeshan: i need support whith home switch
[22:08:37] <andypugh> How does the scope work?
[22:08:48] <zeeshan> its impotant to look at shape
[22:08:54] <zeeshan> cnc1 can you explain
[22:09:10] <andypugh> Are you aware of the clever things telescope mirror grinders use?
[22:09:32] <zeeshan> http://www.keyence.ca/products/microscope/digital-microscope/vhx-2000/index.jsp
[22:09:33] <zeeshan> this is the scope
[22:09:36] <andypugh> I think there may be scope for being clever with polarisation and fringes and suchlike to measure indent shape
[22:09:50] <zeeshan> i was told it focuses at super high speeds
[22:09:57] <zeeshan> to get a 3d view.
[22:10:41] <zeeshan> andypugh: measuring isn't the problem though
[22:10:56] <zeeshan> its that in the past by the time i got to the scope
[22:10:56] <andypugh> I think I want to marry that microscope.
[22:11:04] <zeeshan> the damn smp recovered
[22:11:18] <zeeshan> that video i showed you, it took 30 seconds to get setup on the scope
[22:11:23] <zeeshan> so theres a whole bunch of data missing from it
[22:11:35] <zeeshan> yea its pretty sweet!!
[22:11:39] <zeeshan> i want one
[22:11:51] <zeeshan> i was looking at my skin under it
[22:12:03] <andypugh> Never a good idea
[22:12:10] <zeeshan> why
[22:12:23] <andypugh> You will be permanently repulsed by your own flesh :-)
[22:12:28] <zeeshan> LOL
[22:14:04] <zeeshan> http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000xjzRtbQgF8E/s/860/860/K12sem-human-skin24.jpg
[22:14:07] <zeeshan> it looks something like that
[22:14:10] <zeeshan> its pretty disgusting
[22:14:12] <zeeshan> we're disgusting
[22:15:49] <andypugh> Yeah, I worked in skin-graft research for a while.
[22:15:55] <zeeshan> ew
[22:16:33] <jdh> Z: http://www.lmi3d.com/products
[22:17:06] <andypugh> Then I went to work for an X-ray microscope company. Pretty cool stuff. Not relevant to your current project but worth knowing it can be done. The images in the data sheet and video are for chips on a board and in the packaging. http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/dage/products/ExampleProductFamily/Pages/VIPInvitation.aspx
[22:17:06] <zeeshan> jdh we use a similar thing called "aramis 3d" by gom
[22:17:12] <zeeshan> but problem is the indents are too small
[22:17:25] <jdh> we have a couple of there 'gocator' things. I dislike them because the name is so stupid
[22:18:26] <andypugh> Their CT option is cool too. sub-micron 3D tomography of the insides of chips, BGAs etc.
[22:18:31] <zeeshan> haha thats cool
[22:19:25] <zeeshan> i think we use tomography
[22:19:34] <zeeshan> xray tomography to find cracks inside a metal specimen
[22:20:03] <zeeshan> porosity too
[22:20:05] <andypugh> Those machine use _very_ hard X-rays. 3 seconds for a fatal dose if you were in the box, I calculated.
[22:20:17] <zeeshan> eek
[22:20:40] <zeeshan> my dad says xrays die off after 6 feet
[22:20:43] <zeeshan> dental xrays that are
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[22:20:59] <zeeshan> is that true even for higher intensity xrays like in tomography?
[22:21:29] <andypugh> It’s not true at all
[22:21:49] <andypugh> But it does depend on how focused the beam is
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[22:22:08] <andypugh> An X-ray laser would be nasty light-years away (and some time after the event)
[22:22:40] <zeeshan> lol
[22:22:58] <zeeshan> not a good way to die.
[22:23:21] <cnc1> zeeshan: http://imagebin.ca/v/1uj6jPG4I2Nh
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[22:24:25] <zeeshan> cnc1: ill be back in like 30 min, i can send you my config
[22:25:56] <cnc1> when i push reference X the drive over switch and not stop
[22:26:21] <cnc1> hi Swapper
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[22:26:55] <cnc1> ok
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[22:40:36] <ssi> zeeshan: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAAvq4QWYAAmAj6.jpg:large
[22:40:38] <ssi> bed corner bearing
[22:41:51] <cnc1> nice
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[22:43:57] <zeeshan> nice ssi
[22:44:01] <zeeshan> cnc1: are you using pncconf ?
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[22:55:54] <cnc1> yes
[22:56:49] <cnc1> why
[22:58:24] <andypugh> ssi: Do they make concave V-bearings? Two (perhaps three) of those on outside corners of the extrusion would have a much stiffer bearing area.
[22:59:07] <ssi> andypugh: when you see the final assembly you'll understand why it's this way, and why it doesn't need to be stiff
[23:00:04] <andypugh> Everything needs to be stiff!
[23:00:17] <_methods> that's what she said
[23:03:24] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CAA049OXEAEEYg1.jpg:large
[23:03:32] <ssi> those corner bearings are just to constrain the bed laterally
[23:03:40] <ssi> it'll run up and down on jackscrews
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[23:08:13] <andypugh> It’s just not cast-iron enough for my tastes :-)
[23:08:26] <ssi> doesn't need to be for laser
[23:08:38] <ssi> all it has to do is support the workpiece, support its own weight, and not shake too much
[23:08:53] <andypugh> Pah! You and your “logic”
[23:08:57] <ssi> but if you want to build me a cast iron motion platform with a 48x96" work area, have you at it :)
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[23:24:57] <cnc1> zeeshan: hall
[23:25:24] <cnc1> o
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