#linuxcnc | Logs for 2015-02-05

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[00:00:01] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, marlin is the firmware yes use it
[00:00:06] <JT-Shop> LeelooMinai, going toward the material you risk damaging the tool from overtravel
[00:00:11] -!- gennro__ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
[00:00:15] <andypugh> And then I use a touch-probe to find thr material.
[00:00:17] <Tom_itx> i'm saying the TI driver is better than the allegro parts
[00:00:28] -!- gennro [gennro!~gennro@ip68-224-129-2.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:00:36] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, I'm not following you
[00:00:37] <andypugh> But, I have tools that go in to a repeatable depth.
[00:00:50] <Tom_itx> DRV8825
[00:00:58] <Tom_itx> the hardware
[00:01:01] <Tom_itx> not the software
[00:01:10] <Tom_itx> those plug into the ramps board
[00:01:16] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[00:01:17] <LeelooMinai> JT-Shop: I can imagine... Still, doing it by hand kind of bugs me... There must be some niceser way of knowing the distance of the tip of the tip with respect to some object.
[00:01:38] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, what you're getting on the ramps kit is likely the allegro part
[00:01:39] <LeelooMinai> tip of the bit*
[00:01:42] <JT-Shop> nice as in elegant?
[00:01:46] <Tom_itx> the TI part is more robust
[00:01:53] <LeelooMinai> As automatic and precise.
[00:02:23] <JT-Shop> if your there to put the tool in your the automatic lol
[00:02:27] -!- bedah has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat]
[00:02:40] <LeelooMinai> What? :)
[00:03:08] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/271299102284?lpid=82&chn=ps
[00:03:21] <LeelooMinai> A, ok, right, well, I would rather have machine to do that.
[00:03:39] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: Cheapest http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-CNC-Router-Engraver-Auto-Check-Setting-Tools-Instrument-CNC-Tools-/231046369992
[00:04:18] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, seems like piece of metal with cable:)
[00:04:24] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: more coolness http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DT02-CNC-Universal-Wireless-Tool-Setting-Gauge-Presetter-Controller-1-micron-/251740723203
[00:04:30] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, A4988 is the Alegro?
[00:04:35] <Tom_itx> yes
[00:04:44] <JT-Shop> that's what I have lol
[00:04:46] <Tom_itx> they're ok but that other one is better
[00:04:50] <Tom_itx> it will work
[00:05:01] <Tom_itx> after you blow em get the other ones
[00:05:02] <Tom_itx> :D
[00:05:14] <JT-Shop> sounds like a plan
[00:05:23] <Tom_itx> they should work fine
[00:05:38] <JT-Shop> this is a 24v board
[00:05:43] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: Prettier: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Edge-Technology-Pro-Touch-Off-Z-Axis-Setting-Gauge-Height-Tool-Next-Generation-/291173424571
[00:05:55] <Tom_itx> the 4988 was actually a replacement for a previous allegro part
[00:06:08] -!- moorbo has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[00:06:21] <_methods> but it's not wifi
[00:06:54] <JT-Shop> what about a yellow robot to change your tools?
[00:07:05] <JT-Shop> or the Honda one it is cool
[00:07:28] <LeelooMinai> andypugh: The last one seems like what that guy was doing, but in reverse - he has the Heimer thing in the collet.
[00:08:08] <JT-Shop> oh most modern VMC's do have automagic tool measuring
[00:08:19] <LeelooMinai> Still, if one has, say, carbide mill - wouldn't it damage the top of that tool a bit each time?
[00:08:42] <_methods> still faster to use tool height presetter
[00:08:43] <LeelooMinai> endmill*
[00:08:55] <_methods> not taking time up on the machine that way
[00:09:04] <andypugh> LeelooMinai: I think that the height gauges are both hard and sprung
[00:09:06] <JT-Shop> _methods, for an ER collet?
[00:09:14] <_methods> yeah
[00:09:23] -!- gene80 [gene80!~gene@204.111.64.149] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:09:31] <andypugh> You just need several spindle motors, one for each tool
[00:10:13] <JT-Shop> that makes more sense to have quick change spindles
[00:10:35] <_methods> zoller FTW
[00:10:42] <JT-Shop> _methods, I doubt it is an ER in a tool holder but an ER spindle
[00:10:55] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRfprHCu1RI
[00:11:33] <gene80> In the FWIW category, the RTAI build instruction and patch kit I was directred to earlier today do not ATM agree on kernel versions
[00:12:02] <cradek> gene80: do not build a kernel or rtai
[00:12:21] <cradek> gene80: whoever told you to do that must be on a substance
[00:12:50] <cradek> if you want to run the uspace version of linuxcnc, just use the debian -rt kernel and be happy
[00:14:13] <gene80> So I am in the process of building a 3.14.26 version now. Also they lack the kernels make install step also, and only intimate that you should be running it before building the RTAI version.
[00:14:15] <jack16> what latencies typical for userspace?
[00:14:23] -!- witnit_user [witnit_user!~user@208-38-253-24.hntninaa.metronetinc.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:14:37] <witnit_user> pcw https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6f89e29c172f53ec64ec
[00:14:57] <cradek> gene80: you shouldn't "make install" a kernel on a modern system, you should build a package. but you should not build a kernel at all because that's already done!
[00:15:08] <gene80> AFAIK, I cannot see an rt kernel in the repo's, so that also is not feasible.
[00:15:16] <witnit_user> if i change num_stepgen to 3 it works just fine
[00:15:28] <witnit_user> but at 0 i get that
[00:16:03] <Tom_itx> if you want 0 remove stepgen from the config line
[00:16:33] <cradek> linux-image-rt-686-pae:
[00:16:34] <cradek> ...
[00:16:38] <cradek> 500 http://http.debian.net/debian/ wheezy/main i386 Packages
[00:16:50] <cradek> well it's in debian main
[00:17:07] <gene80> Ok, what deb path do it need to add to the sources.list to find an rt kernel? The only ones show claim to be the one on the install cd, which claims it s 32 bit pae, but the pae is missing, it only sees 3 of the 8Gb in this box.
[00:17:46] <andypugh> _methods: That seems just a _tad_ over the top for my home workshop.
[00:17:51] <gene80> IOW, I am 50 megs into swap if I load it up with my usual stuffs in about an hours uptime.
[00:17:55] <_methods> andypugh: yeah it is
[00:17:56] <_methods> lol
[00:18:02] <cradek> it's normal and good for a machine to use swap
[00:18:04] <_methods> yours is perfect
[00:18:41] <micges> witnit_user: you have typo in [hostmot2]config
[00:18:45] <cradek> gene80: sudo apt-get install linux-image-rt-686-pae
[00:19:07] <_methods> andypugh: it's perfect but it's not wifi and it's not "beautiful"
[00:19:11] <micges> witnit_user: two closing "
[00:19:21] <Tom_itx> _methods that guy's too clean cut to trust
[00:19:24] <_methods> or automatic lol
[00:19:27] <gene80> image-magic-rt-pae is NOT PAE. even if it claims it is., Chris. BTDT, couple times now.
[00:19:37] <_methods> Tom_itx: hahah
[00:19:48] <andypugh> In fact, if I did have that in the workshop there wouldn’t be room for the mill.
[00:19:49] <_methods> he's kinda serial killer creepy
[00:19:49] <cradek> gene80: you're confusing -rt and -rtai
[00:20:28] <Tom_itx> _methods, he belongs at a state fair in one of those booths with that mic on
[00:20:30] <cradek> gene80: -rt is a debian kernel; -rtai is a linuxcnc kernel
[00:21:01] <_methods> here's their fancy one
[00:21:03] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V24SN0iNpuc
[00:21:25] <_methods> automatic measuring weeeeeeee
[00:21:39] <gene80> Chris, I will try it one more time as soon as this build is done. What link is that repo branch?
[00:21:59] <cradek> I don't understand that question
[00:22:51] <andypugh> _methods: Deeding that machine has to be the most boring job in the world
[00:22:57] <_methods> their tool clamp system is nice too
[00:22:59] <witnit_user> ty
[00:23:06] <_methods> yeah we put the tool crib guy on it
[00:23:08] <gene80> in my sources.list
[00:23:13] <_methods> he's not the sharpest tool in the crib
[00:23:18] <_methods> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQlBfRghl-E
[00:23:34] <cradek> gene80: it's in main. just type the install command.
[00:24:10] <gene80> also, what is the invocation syntax diff between mkinitrd and mkinitramfs? My script just puked
[00:24:12] -!- mttr [mttr!~mttr@0016019a1697.cpe.westmancom.com] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:24:35] <witnit_user> micges I will reboot and tell you how right you are when it works
[00:24:51] <witnit_user> you and pcw called it before you even saw it
[00:24:51] <witnit_user> hahaha
[00:25:09] -!- witnit_user has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[00:25:56] <cradek> gene80: I am too old to help folks build kernels, and I'm probably only half your age.
[00:26:29] -!- gene80 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[00:26:39] <_methods> hahah
[00:26:54] <Tom_itx> ole phart
[00:27:01] <cradek> :-(
[00:27:25] <cradek> I thought he'd find that funny, I didn't mean to be an ass to him.
[00:27:34] <Tom_itx> cradek, i'm a member too :D
[00:28:03] <_methods> he said FU meaney
[00:28:25] <_methods> rage quit
[00:29:24] -!- gene78 has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[00:29:38] <witnit_> micges, ohnoes it still does same thing
[00:29:55] -!- gene78 [gene78!~gene@204.111.64.149] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:30:57] <andypugh> is gene78 a previous incarnation of gene80 ?
[00:31:04] -!- Tom_L [Tom_L!~Tl@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:31:06] <gene78> You must have fixed it, now it is pae, & see's all 8Gb in this machine
[00:31:30] <cradek> gene78: -rt is not a kernel we build; ours is rtai
[00:37:48] <andypugh> So, who knows the spec of the thread on the jets from acetylene headlamps?
[00:38:31] <gene78> At anyrate, it runs trhe sim/axis, and it see's all my memory. Next time I reboot, I'll give the one I just built a pass at the free throw line.
[00:38:50] -!- Brunetty has quit [Quit: Ahora vengo]
[00:39:56] <gene78> Over here on this sde of the pond I would guess at 1/4-28, but gauge it Andy as I haven't seen one of those critters in 60+ years.
[00:40:34] <andypugh> It’s a steep taper
[00:43:09] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAYS-ADJUSTABLE-4-BOTTOMS-CARBIDE-GAS-LAMP-BURNER-/250764525306
[00:43:10] <gene78> A pipe thread then. Is a machinists bible handy? Mine would be a 40 foot walk up the hill, in the dark, wearing my tidy whities and its about 34F outside. ;-) But in the dark, my back yard is pretty private.
[00:44:31] <cradek> wow that is steep
[00:45:18] <andypugh> Yeah, luckily LinuxCNC does the thread pitch along the hypotenuse :-)
[00:45:23] -!- rob_h has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[00:45:29] <cradek> hahaha
[00:45:32] <andypugh> So i can maeasure it and then program it.
[00:46:12] <andypugh> Though I can do the Steve Blackmore Memorial Rant if you insist?
[00:46:26] <cradek> oh don't start
[00:48:18] <andypugh> But I have my High Horse all saddled and everything :-)
[00:49:19] <andypugh> Inventor HSM makes really nice tool paths. I am very impressed.
[00:49:32] <andypugh> Not sure what you get for free with basic Fusion360 though.
[00:50:07] <_methods> it has some pretty crazy capabilities
[00:50:08] <_methods> for mill
[00:50:11] <_methods> i was impressed
[00:50:14] <_methods> 3d toolpathing
[00:50:17] <_methods> adaptive clearing
[00:50:43] <andypugh> Yeah, the adaptive clearing is good enough all by itself for me.
[00:50:54] <_methods> i'm VERY surprised they are even giving it up free for limited time
[00:51:11] <_methods> the actual cad part is pretty meh
[00:51:22] <_methods> but the tool pathing, oh my
[00:51:41] <andypugh> I have a licence (all legit) for Inventor, so I don’t need the CAD part.
[00:51:45] -!- AR__ [AR__!~AR@24.238.81.234.res-cmts.sth2.ptd.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:52:22] <_methods> the actual cad part isnt to bad but the assemblies is the bad part
[00:52:28] <_methods> the mating system is just insane
[00:52:35] <andypugh> This was just the adaptive clearing in 3D, no finishing. 3mm step-down then 0.2mm “shallow pocket” https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/jRnGlIXp0p78nr_78HcGdtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[00:53:03] <andypugh> Unfortunately the reverse side came out identical because I am a fool.
[00:53:05] <_methods> with fusion or inventor hsm/
[00:53:25] <andypugh> That’s Inventor HSM.
[00:53:39] <_methods> looks good
[00:53:48] <_methods> everyone is going to integrated cam it seems like
[00:53:52] <andypugh> HSM eXpress is free with Inventor, but I don’t think it does that. I will find out in 25 days :-)
[00:54:39] <_methods> i haven't tried solidworks or inventor hsm
[00:54:39] <andypugh> I like the “rest machining” where is knows what material is already gone. It also means that retracts are only as high as necessary.
[00:54:46] <_methods> yeah
[00:54:56] <_methods> restmilling always seems to not work so well though
[00:55:04] <andypugh> Whereas the CamBam lathe paths occasionally get crazy.
[00:55:06] <_methods> i end up messing with the restmill paths so much
[00:55:20] <_methods> i'm just better off doing individual contours
[00:56:16] <andypugh> CamBam lathe turning a domed end ends up with “retract to full diameter, rapid to touch surface, retract to full diamter, rapid and touch….."
[00:56:24] <_methods> i'll do adaptive clearing then go with organized individual pathing for final work
[00:58:21] <_methods> depending on the part of course
[00:59:54] <PCW> micges: if still up, witnit_'s bug does look like a hm2_eth bug
[01:00:31] <micges> PCW: same as hm2_7i90 you mentioned?
[01:00:40] -!- jvrousseau has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com]
[01:00:56] <PCW> similar (untried corner config cases)
[01:02:04] <PCW> hm2_pci does not have an issue with all modules turned off
[01:04:25] -!- Loetmichel2 [Loetmichel2!~cylly@p54B10DCB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #linuxcnc
[01:04:58] <PCW> the hm2_eh bug seems more likely to be different than what looks like a config parser bug in hm2_7i90
[01:05:56] -!- Loetmichel has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[01:06:09] <micges> PCW: ok I'll check hm2_eth, building sources
[01:06:16] <witnit_> anything you want me to try let me know
[01:06:33] <Tom_L> me as well on the 7i90
[01:06:45] -!- bilboquet_ [bilboquet_!~bilboquet@37-1-169-146.ip.skylogicnet.com] has joined #linuxcnc
[01:06:46] <witnit_> it does work all the way down to 1 stepgen
[01:06:54] <witnit_> but 0 fails at init
[01:07:41] <PCW> Yeah it looks a bit like the hm2_7i90 bug (if you omit the config string it goes crazy)
[01:08:33] -!- adb has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[01:08:43] <micges> Tom_L: did you saw crazy things when you pass config="" to loadrt hm2_7i90 ?
[01:08:55] -!- Nick001-shop has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.91.1 [Firefox 34.0.5/20141126041045]]
[01:09:04] <witnit_> I think the bug results the same with ommiting the string vs typing num_stepgens=0
[01:09:38] -!- bilboquet has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[01:10:59] <PCW> micges what blew up on hm2_7i90 was
[01:11:01] <PCW> loadrt hm2_7i90
[01:11:35] <micges> ah
[01:11:45] <PCW> didn't try
[01:11:46] <PCW> loadrt hm2_7i90 config=""
[01:12:18] <micges> loadrt hm2_7i90 config="" was bug in mk and was fixed I think
[01:12:47] <furrywolf_> somewhat ready for the storm tomorrow. it's supposed to be a fun one. reinforced part of the fence that was getting a little sketchy, cleaned up all leaning things that could be blown over,...
[01:12:59] <_methods> http://linuxgizmos.com/fanless-pico-itx-sbc-rocks-bay-trail-up-to-2-4ghz/
[01:13:23] <witnit_> not specifying stepgens leads to a functional system but defaults to 5 stepgens?
[01:13:48] <PCW> all on is default
[01:13:56] <furrywolf_> got the genny running now to top up the batteries before it's actually needed.
[01:14:51] <andypugh> There are too many SoC boards out there, it is impossible to keep up.
[01:15:10] -!- atom1 [atom1!~tom@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812] has joined #linuxcnc
[01:15:28] <_methods> yeah it's kinda nice to have so many choices though
[01:16:05] <PCW> _methods how about the tupperware PC: http://store.hp.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/us/en/pdp/desktops/hp-stream-mini-desktop---200-010
[01:16:33] <_methods> hah
[01:16:36] <_methods> kinda cool
[01:16:53] <_methods> i actually might have a use for that
[01:17:08] <PCW> decent reduced clock dual core Haswell
[01:17:23] <_methods> my buddy is all into xmas lights and he needs a windows pc to run vixen to control his xmas lights
[01:17:31] <_methods> that is exactly what he's looking for i think
[01:18:13] <PCW> I'm going to try one with LinuxCNC
[01:18:22] <_methods> let me know how it goes
[01:18:24] <atom1> loadrt hm2_7i90 config=""
[01:18:27] <atom1> did fine here
[01:19:05] <PCW> what about
[01:19:06] <PCW> loadrt hm2_7i90
[01:19:29] <atom1> errors
[01:19:57] <andypugh> Night all
[01:20:03] -!- andypugh has quit [Quit: andypugh]
[01:20:09] <PCW> sensible errors or off the deep end errors?
[01:20:10] <furrywolf_> ... that does look like a tupperware container. lol
[01:20:36] <_methods> yeah i bet that board i linked to will end up costing like $800
[01:20:42] <_methods> vs $180
[01:21:18] <furrywolf_> bbl, work
[01:22:29] <PCW> its an appliance but not bad 2G RAM, 32G SSD, WIFI, Ethernet, 4x USB3.0 or so
[01:22:42] <_methods> yeah exactly
[01:23:03] <atom1> PCW, http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/cnc/configs/sherline/Screenshot-LinuxCNC%20Errors.png
[01:24:26] <PCW> 1.4 GHz baby I3
[01:25:07] <_methods> oh score, it comes with mcafee lol
[01:25:27] <_methods> and tripadvisor hehe
[01:25:34] <zeeshan|2> blew up a 3rd servo drive
[01:25:34] <zeeshan|2> !
[01:25:35] <PCW> runs linux without issue
[01:25:37] <zeeshan|2> actually ididnt
[01:25:41] <zeeshan|2> im so nervous to plug it in
[01:25:47] <witnit_> O.o
[01:26:01] <zeeshan|2> i checked all control voltage
[01:26:06] <zeeshan|2> tachometer, motor leads
[01:26:07] <Tom_L> zeeshan|2 grow a set
[01:26:11] <zeeshan|2> they dont have any stray voltages
[01:26:17] <_methods> learning is a painful process heheh
[01:26:18] <witnit_> scope log it all while you test?
[01:26:19] <zeeshan|2> i tried the light bulb test too.
[01:26:21] <_methods> for the wallet
[01:26:31] <zeeshan|2> it didnt blow up the light bulb
[01:26:41] <zeeshan|2> there isn't a voltage spike coming from the ac side.
[01:26:58] <skunksleep> These are AMC drives?
[01:27:02] <zeeshan|2> yes
[01:27:26] * skunksleep hasn't blown one yet...
[01:27:31] <zeeshan|2> ive blown 2
[01:27:33] <zeeshan|2> in 1 day!
[01:27:49] <Tom_L> then find the problem before you blow another one
[01:27:52] <zeeshan|2> im hoping amc can at least tell me what portion of the circuit is blowing
[01:27:54] <skunksleep> I bet something is wrong... ;)
[01:27:57] <zeeshan|2> Tom_L: thats the problem
[01:27:58] <witnit_> something has got to be backfeeding i just dont see how else you could do something like that
[01:28:01] <zeeshan|2> i can't find any problems.
[01:28:06] <Tom_L> find the cause
[01:28:08] <zeeshan|2> well you guys tell me!
[01:28:11] <zeeshan|2> what could be backfeeding?
[01:28:15] -!- furrywolf_ has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[01:28:17] <zeeshan|2> it's definitely not the 7i77 backfeeding
[01:28:23] <witnit_> the amps output
[01:28:32] <zeeshan|2> the motor can't be backfeeding because it's stationary
[01:28:34] <witnit_> did it pop while stalled?
[01:28:36] <zeeshan|2> so how can it generate any voltage
[01:28:39] <zeeshan|2> no
[01:28:46] <zeeshan|2> it popped when the drive was in disabled state
[01:28:52] <witnit_> :/
[01:28:58] <zeeshan|2> i shut it off, turned it back on after 20 sec
[01:29:00] <zeeshan|2> and it blew the f up
[01:29:14] <zeeshan|2> it operated fine before that
[01:29:36] <zeeshan|2> how can the amps output backfeed into the drive
[01:29:43] <zeeshan|2> you're saying like..
[01:29:43] <witnit_> they cant if they arent on
[01:29:58] <zeeshan|2> yea they give 0 v out when disabled
[01:30:12] <witnit_> right i was unaware your amp was disable when it popped
[01:30:26] <zeeshan|2> where else can they be back feeding from
[01:30:29] <PCW> bus voltage would be highest when disabled
[01:30:46] <PCW> what is you line voltage?
[01:30:49] <zeeshan|2> 120vac
[01:31:04] <PCW> as measured?
[01:31:07] <zeeshan|2> yes
[01:31:09] <zeeshan|2> 120.7
[01:31:31] <zeeshan|2> input rating is 35 - 125vAC
[01:32:04] <zeeshan|2> could it just be old caps?
[01:32:14] <skunksleep> That is really close to the top end..
[01:32:37] <zeeshan|2> skunksleep: it doesnt blow up the x and y drives
[01:32:44] <zeeshan|2> that are identical in model and revision #
[01:33:44] <PetefromTn_> is the Z motor different somehow?
[01:33:53] <zeeshan|2> yea its larger
[01:33:56] <zeeshan|2> and has a brake
[01:34:01] <witnit_> the brake
[01:34:04] <PCW> I would tend to wire them all to one contactor
[01:34:12] <zeeshan|2> pcw they are all on one contactor
[01:34:13] <zeeshan|2> x y z
[01:34:17] <zeeshan|2> a and c are on different contactor
[01:34:25] <PCW> same contact?
[01:34:27] <PetefromTn_> how much larger is it and is the drive too small to power it?
[01:34:28] <zeeshan|2> no
[01:34:30] <zeeshan|2> different contacts
[01:34:43] <PCW> that may be an issue
[01:35:11] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: it doesnt blow up while operating
[01:35:26] <zeeshan|2> PCW: im just gonna rely on drive disable
[01:35:34] <zeeshan|2> they're naturally disabled
[01:35:44] <zeeshan|2> i dont think i need to be breaking the mains side of them
[01:35:56] <PetefromTn_> the inrush current when you first power the motor is highest isn't it?
[01:35:59] <zeeshan|2> only thing is if comp freezes
[01:36:12] <zeeshan|2> i guess watchdog will fail
[01:36:23] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: yes but they start up in disabled state
[01:36:24] <zeeshan|2> not enabledf
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[01:36:48] <PetefromTn_> you are saying the drive blows when they are not even enabled yet
[01:36:53] <zeeshan|2> yes!
[01:36:57] <zeeshan|2> they're in inhibit state
[01:36:58] <PetefromTn_> WOw that is odd
[01:36:59] <zeeshan|2> i power cycle
[01:37:00] <zeeshan|2> and it blows up
[01:39:18] <zeeshan|2> http://imgur.com/a/rIy7k#1
[01:39:21] <zeeshan|2> when i inspected this drive again
[01:39:25] <zeeshan|2> the voltage regulator looks fine
[01:39:34] <zeeshan|2> i think a piece of that cap landed there
[01:39:57] <zeeshan|2> the only risky thing i can try is
[01:40:01] <zeeshan|2> take the Y drive that i know is good
[01:40:04] <zeeshan|2> and plug it into Z
[01:40:06] <zeeshan|2> and see if it blows up
[01:40:07] <witnit_> so how about put your leads back on and try activating the brake sylonoid before connecting amp?
[01:40:10] <zeeshan|2> i really dont know what else to do
[01:40:17] <PetefromTn_> didn't you say you blew 2 drives
[01:40:20] <zeeshan|2> witnit: the brake solenoid is normally engaged
[01:40:30] <witnit_> normaly has electricity on it all the time?
[01:40:32] <zeeshan|2> yes
[01:40:36] <zeeshan|2> 24vdc
[01:40:54] <zeeshan|2> my brake needs 24vdc to engage, but if you remove power from it
[01:40:58] <zeeshan|2> it stays in whatever last state it was
[01:41:06] <zeeshan|2> so if it was engaged, and you remove power, it stays engaged
[01:41:14] <zeeshan|2> if it was disengaged, it stays disengaged
[01:41:16] <zeeshan|2> a bit scary :)
[01:41:29] <zeeshan|2> PetefromTn_: yes i blew 2 drives
[01:41:42] <zeeshan|2> :(
[01:42:04] <PetefromTn_> I feel your pain man.. When I first bought the machine I was trying to use the orignal control
[01:42:16] <PetefromTn_> and I blew a drive, had it repaired for $1100.00
[01:42:16] <zeeshan|2> what drives are you running?
[01:42:30] <PetefromTn_> and then put it back in there and two days later another one blew.
[01:42:34] <zeeshan|2> wow
[01:42:36] <zeeshan|2> what blew in them
[01:42:39] <PetefromTn_> that is when I said screw it and sold it all
[01:42:41] <PetefromTn_> no idea
[01:43:00] <zeeshan|2> these drives have been sitting for a long time
[01:43:00] <PetefromTn_> the drives I am using at the TECO brand with matching motors and cables..
[01:43:04] <zeeshan|2> maybe the capacitors need to be cycled
[01:43:06] <zeeshan|2> gently
[01:43:42] <PetefromTn_> its funny that when my original control's drives blew it was ALSO when I first powered/enabled them...
[01:43:58] <zeeshan|2> before i blow up anotehr drive
[01:44:01] <zeeshan|2> i think im gonna just repair the caps
[01:44:03] <zeeshan|2> and try .
[01:44:34] <PetefromTn_> if it were my machine and ONLY the Z axis blows I would be seriously looking at that drives setup and wiring.
[01:44:59] <zeeshan|2> i did man
[01:45:01] <zeeshan|2> like multiple times
[01:45:05] <zeeshan|2> even got my friend to look at it
[01:45:11] <zeeshan|2> to ensure i was not biased
[01:46:19] <PetefromTn_> you need to ask yourself what is different about the setup of the Z motor and investigate that even IF it looks right to you and your friend. Blowing two drives that are the exact same type on the exact same axis is no coincidence I would think.
[01:46:31] <zeeshan|2> the thing is
[01:46:37] <zeeshan|2> the failure wasn't the exact same internally
[01:46:45] <micges> PCW: hm2_eth doesn't have default board_ip string in driver, so it's NULL pointer problem
[01:46:48] <zeeshan|2> http://imgur.com/a/rIy7k#0
[01:46:52] <zeeshan|2> in one case it was just one capacitor
[01:46:56] <zeeshan|2> in the second case
[01:47:01] <zeeshan|2> http://imgur.com/a/fKIOl#0
[01:47:03] <zeeshan|2> it was multiple caps
[01:47:13] <zeeshan|2> not even the same ones
[01:47:51] <PetefromTn_> was it the same part of the board tho?
[01:47:56] <zeeshan|2> no
[01:47:59] <zeeshan|2> it doesnt look like it
[01:48:03] <zeeshan|2> but im no electronics expert
[01:48:34] <PetefromTn_> if you disable the Z side of things you can currently safely enable and move the X and Y without issue?
[01:48:36] <_methods> you lost more than caps in that first one
[01:48:54] <zeeshan|2> what did i lose
[01:49:35] <_methods> looks like an amplifier and some other stuff
[01:49:42] <_methods> hard to tell from thepics
[01:49:43] <zeeshan|2> i think thats just soot
[01:50:43] <_methods> over by s5 and s6?
[01:51:01] <_methods> http://imgur.com/a/rIy7k#1
[01:54:22] <_methods> hmm do those boards have diff layout?
[01:55:09] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: did you clean up cap guts?
[01:55:13] <XXCoder> if so, any pics?
[01:55:21] <_methods> smd cap
[01:55:52] <_methods> http://imgur.com/a/fKIOl#1
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[01:55:59] <_methods> thats the other board he lost
[01:56:04] <_methods> with cap unexploded
[01:56:14] <_methods> http://imgur.com/a/rIy7k#1
[01:56:18] <_methods> cap exploded on that one
[01:56:29] <_methods> but the board layout looks slightly diff
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[01:58:50] <_methods> hehe they blanked out all their chips pretty good
[02:00:41] <XXCoder> indeed
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[02:01:00] <_methods> must be a nightmare when you drop a box of chips with all the markings sanded off
[02:03:06] <XXCoder> I bet ya its lot of fun trying tpo figure what chips those are
[02:03:12] <_methods> yeah
[02:04:06] <Tom_L> Connor, the pwmgen works on this board just fine
[02:04:54] <micges> witnit: what loadrt hm2_eth lines works and what don't?
[02:05:25] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan|2 Hey I just wanted to say that I am sorry you are having trouble and my comments were only trying to help you surely know more about electronics and servos and drives than I do that is to be sure.
[02:05:39] <micges> witnit_: ^^
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[02:10:10] <Tom_L> well i think it does anyway
[02:11:34] <Tom_L> the signal seems backwards though
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[02:13:10] <witnit_> num_stepgens=1 works as expected num_stepgens=0 results in error you saw in my post
[02:13:54] <witnit_> using something like num_stepgens=-1 is the same as running it as ommiting num_stepgens
[02:13:59] <witnit_> just curious what would happen :)
[02:14:39] <Tom_L> if i invert the pin i get no V out on the DAC though
[02:14:57] <Tom_L> even though the wave is good on the LA
[02:17:06] <witnit_> what is component 'inihal'
[02:18:07] <micges> interface to task to change some of configs values on the fly
[02:18:27] <micges> ok I reproduced your problem
[02:19:43] <witnit_> awesome gl!
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[02:29:20] <micges> witnit_: I've located num_stepgens problem, will ping you to test fix for it, for now don't set it to 0
[02:30:08] <witnit_> okay sounds good :)
[02:30:31] <Jymmm> [cube]: _methods: Rab roycroft http://www.homedepot.com/p/Weber-Spirit-210-310-Gas-Grills-Igniter-Kit-with-Front-Mounted-Control-Panel-7642/205580067?N=5yc1vZbx9oZ1z0v2z6
[02:31:12] <Jymmm> batter operated
[02:31:36] <witnit_> can you share the change you made, Im curious, its like some issue where it was looking for a varible and instead was dividing by zero hahahaha
[02:31:50] <unfy> mornin! well, evening morning!
[02:32:07] <Jymmm> aftenoon
[02:33:59] <micges> witnit_: seems to latest improvement to stepgen doesn't have disable when num_stepgens=0 condition
[02:34:34] <micges> so it's accessing nonexistent hal variables
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[02:34:36] <Connor> Tom_L Good to know. I had issues with mine.. maybe it was bad..
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[02:37:25] <Tom_L> well it's not acting right
[02:37:39] <Tom_L> i need the signal inverted but when i do i get no v on the DAC
[02:37:56] <Tom_L> low rpm produces 10v high rpm produces 0v
[02:38:09] <Tom_L> i'm gonna try stepgen next
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[02:40:03] <witnit_> thank you! I was sure it was trying still to wait on a device it was not ever going to find
[02:41:22] <zeeshan> http://imgur.com/a/zIvoZ
[02:41:25] <zeeshan> this is what a new board looks like
[02:41:29] <witnit_> for my needs i will have plenty of room on this plug I was just trying to see where i went wrong
[02:43:21] <witnit_> im glad i found something important =D
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[02:47:15] <Connor> I see a damaged trace on this one. http://imgur.com/a/rIy7k#0
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[02:57:55] <new2cnc_> test
[02:58:19] <Tom_L> fail
[02:59:30] <XXCoder> Error: 404 page not found/
[02:59:46] <furrywolf_> xxcoder: make your signal work yet?
[02:59:56] <XXCoder> nah bit too tired today
[03:00:02] <XXCoder> lot work today lol
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[03:00:17] <furrywolf_> same here
[03:01:11] <furrywolf_> coincidentally, while driving for work today, I noticed the city replacing all the pedestrian signals at an intersection, presumably from old non-countdown ones to countdown ones. I was tempted to pick up a couple of the old ones, but decided I had absolutely no use for them whatsoever.
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[03:02:14] <XXCoder> heh can always ebay em
[03:03:01] <furrywolf_> I also watched one of the workers drop the new one he was installing... where not only did it fall to the ground, it then rolled down the steep hillside on the edge of the road for ~30ft. he sighed, got off the ladder, and headed after it.
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[03:05:27] <XXCoder> heh bet that was fun for worker :P
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[03:09:02] <georgenz> Hey guys... im trying to setup my machine center with mesa 5i25 and 7i77, teco servos. Im trying to get my x axis motor running but the enable pin will not drop low. Any ideas?
[03:09:25] <PetefromTn_> 8 sodium atoms walk into a bar followed by Batman....
[03:09:46] <georgenz> Hey pete
[03:09:53] <PetefromTn_> hey]
[03:10:03] <PetefromTn_> ya get it?
[03:10:12] <witnit_> georgenz what amps do you have?
[03:10:52] <georgenz> Teco dmt-100-202
[03:10:59] <PetefromTn_> NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA BATMAN!!! LOL
[03:12:19] * furrywolf_ didn't know pete was a pothead
[03:13:47] <XXCoder> furrywolf_: it was a dad joke
[03:15:07] <furrywolf_> s/dad/bad
[03:16:24] <XXCoder> http://niceonedad.com/
[03:17:12] <furrywolf_> ... did someone seriously find a way to make a fucking JOKE LIST into bloated slow javascript?
[03:17:27] <furrywolf_> oh, and broken! don't forget broken!
[03:17:41] <XXCoder> works fine here
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[03:18:39] <witnit_> georgenz http://www.machmotion.com/manuals/TED/TSTADriver.pdf page four, this is your setup?
[03:18:58] <XXCoder> I don't trust atoms.. they make everything up.
[03:19:57] <XXCoder> furry that site sucks on one thing though, I can't browse jokes
[03:20:05] <furrywolf_> it sucks on many things.
[03:21:51] <georgenz> Yeah... that is pretty much it. Its sitting at 26v but wont drop low when i enable it on the gui
[03:24:03] <georgenz> It appears to enable on the gui, labels turn from grey to black etc
[03:24:24] <PetefromTn_> Apply power to the drive and activate (SON) signal by switching SON terminal to IG24 (input digital Ground).
[03:24:36] <PetefromTn_> do you have the CN1 connector all wired up?
[03:25:15] amnesic is now known as amnesic_away
[03:27:14] <PetefromTn_> page 2-19 of the manual shows the setup for the SON signal to enable the drive
[03:27:16] <georgenz> Cn1 connector is wired
[03:27:36] <georgenz> Do u mean to manually link it?
[03:28:22] <georgenz> Or on the computer?
[03:28:57] <PetefromTn_> If you look at the wiring diagram I sent you there is a little green circle off to the right. Blow that up and you can see how I have mine wired...
[03:29:37] <georgenz> Ya i have wired it the same
[03:30:23] <PetefromTn_> pin 1 is the enable and should go to the 7i77 TB5 pin2 for the X axis motor
[03:32:09] <georgenz> Yup... that is all right
[03:32:25] <georgenz> The tb5 pin 2 is not pulling it low
[03:32:32] <PetefromTn_> make sure you understand that the pins on the connector are not linearly arranged
[03:33:05] <PetefromTn_> also make sure you have the Gnd and shield of the cable hooked up
[03:33:34] <georgenz> I'm fairly sure the connector is wired... however i havent grounded the sheild
[03:38:10] <PetefromTn_> look at all of the switches on the 7i77 and list them which way they are located so I can make sure you have them the same as I do.. just wondering not sure it matters really. I am thinking you might need to change the state of the output possibly.
[03:40:39] <georgenz> Switches... u mean jumpers?
[03:40:47] <PetefromTn_> yeah sorry
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[03:41:01] <georgenz> Ill take a pic and viber u?
[03:41:01] <PetefromTn_> starting from the left near the big connector
[03:41:07] <PetefromTn_> OK that will work too
[03:43:53] <PetefromTn_> Ok that looks like I have mine but I cannot see the left side
[03:43:57] <PetefromTn_> err right side
[03:44:07] <PetefromTn_> over by the I/O section
[03:45:26] <PetefromTn_> A photon checks into a hotel. The clerk asks him if he'd like help with his bags, "No thanks, I'm traveling light... hehe
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[03:46:13] <PetefromTn_> Two Hydrogen atoms are walking down the street, one says, "I think I lost an electron". The other says, "Are you sure?" yeah man........... "I'm positive."
[03:47:00] <XXCoder> nearing zero comic had one like that
[03:47:42] <XXCoder> http://www.lab-initio.com/screen_res/nz220.jpg
[03:48:20] <XXCoder> 10 years in future http://www.lab-initio.com/screen_res/nz319.jpg
[03:48:28] <PetefromTn_> Two men walk into a bar. The first says I'll have some H20... the second one says Oh that sounds good I think I'll have some H20 too.... then he dies. Yuk Yuk Yuk...
[03:52:27] <georgenz> One issue i have is the diagram in the teco manual is very poor for explaining the pinouts of cn1
[03:53:02] <PetefromTn_> yeah man I know it is confusing... especially the layout of the pins on that high density connector
[03:53:31] <PetefromTn_> I am trying to figure out how to determine what the enable output is thru linuxCNC to the 7i77 on my machine
[03:57:56] <georgenz> The layout of the pins in the diagram is opposite from one side of the connector to the other
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[03:58:54] <codepython7771> whats the official 3d printing room at freenode?
[04:00:45] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/R4e0Iy8.jpg http://i.imgur.com/TasnUga.jpg Here's a shot of the drive and one of the hal showing axis 0 or X and the enable pin
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[04:07:53] <georgenz> Not enough detail on yr pic for me to see where in hal u r exactly
[04:09:06] <georgenz> Found it
[04:09:09] <PetefromTn_> I was just trying to see what the settings were for the X axis enable signals. It has been awhile since I did the axes setup and I am trying to remember
[04:09:22] <georgenz> My screen shows exactly same as yrs
[04:09:30] <PetefromTn_> ok
[04:10:45] <georgenz> The detail in the HAL conf isnt changing when I enable the drive
[04:11:55] <PetefromTn_> so you are saying that you have everything hooked up like mine as far as you can tell and the linuxCNC loads and you try to click the enable button and it goes from greyed out to black for a moment and then back to grey immediately or what?
[04:12:29] <PetefromTn_> and you are not getting any errors when it happens right?
[04:12:53] <georgenz> And it goes back to grey the instant u try to move it followed by a following error
[04:13:09] <PetefromTn_> OH you did not say that last night
[04:13:14] <georgenz> However.. no noise frm motor
[04:13:30] <georgenz> Motor doesnt move at all
[04:13:31] <PetefromTn_> you need to change the F error setting to get the tuning started
[04:13:44] <PetefromTn_> does it click when you hit enable like it is getting powered up
[04:13:55] <georgenz> I have changed the following error setting
[04:14:18] <georgenz> It doesnt do shit when i hit enable
[04:14:27] <georgenz> No noise no voltage change on pin... nada
[04:15:17] <georgenz> The only thing it does when i hit enable is the writing on the screen goes from grey to black
[04:15:17] <PetefromTn_> what is it set to?
[04:15:48] <georgenz> Following error is set to 1mm
[04:16:43] <PetefromTn_> make it something bigger and try it again but it doesn't sound like you are even getting power to the motor yet
[04:16:59] <georgenz> When i hit enable... i can manually turn motor as if its not plugged into anything
[04:17:15] <PetefromTn_> there are folks here that are much better at this shit than I am was hoping some would chime in here...
[04:17:25] <PetefromTn_> Ok then it is totally not enabled yet
[04:17:48] <PetefromTn_> you said you are getting 26v on that pin at the 7i77?
[04:17:57] <georgenz> Yup
[04:18:01] <PetefromTn_> enabled or not
[04:18:05] <georgenz> Yup
[04:19:07] <PetefromTn_> can you take another picture of the 7i77 at the TB5 area?
[04:19:28] <georgenz> On its way
[04:22:27] <PetefromTn_> OK standby I might have figured something out.
[04:23:30] <zeeshan> furrywolf_: hi
[04:23:50] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/zNrxWF9.jpg OK
[04:23:53] <PetefromTn_> here's mine
[04:24:13] <PetefromTn_> if you notice in the picture I have a jumper in there... on all three axes
[04:24:16] <zeeshan> i like the dots on your green connectors
[04:24:17] <zeeshan> :-)
[04:24:35] <unfy> pete: get your shitty estop switches ? :D
[04:24:46] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[04:24:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah man they're not that bad
[04:24:50] <zeeshan> i cleaned up the burned up capacitor
[04:24:57] <unfy> not... bad?!
[04:25:04] <georgenz> Ok... wiring that up now
[04:25:11] <PetefromTn_> anyways if you see that little blue wire
[04:25:13] <zeeshan> it honestly looks like
[04:25:20] <zeeshan> that cap launched itself to that area
[04:25:22] <unfy> for $2ea they're not bad, but i wouldn't trust them on anything big.
[04:25:22] <zeeshan> leaving soot
[04:25:51] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/pDy30hV.jpg?1
[04:25:54] <zeeshan> old pic
[04:26:13] <PetefromTn_> it goes from the first pin to the third pin on each axis
[04:26:41] <PetefromTn_> that SHOULD be from enable O- to GND
[04:27:28] <furrywolf_> I got mine today too. I wouldn't use them on anything much larger than my sherline.
[04:27:50] <PetefromTn_> thats up to you but I will be putting them on my 14x40 CNC lathe for sure
[04:28:04] <georgenz> Enable is pin 2 tho??
[04:28:05] <Connor> What do they look like ?
[04:28:26] <PetefromTn_> yeah thats enable +
[04:28:33] <PetefromTn_> look at the 7i77 manual...
[04:28:46] <PetefromTn_> you can get it online if you don't already have it..
[04:28:56] <zeeshan> http://i00.i.aliimg.com/img/pb/521/140/504/504140521_374.jpg
[04:28:58] <zeeshan> sorry for noob q
[04:29:03] <zeeshan> what is a picofarad code?
[04:29:46] <furrywolf_> hrmm, I decided they look a little too breakable for a large machine... you go to thwap it with your remaining hand, and the mushroom breaks or something...
[04:30:11] <zeeshan> furrywolf_: you ignore me now!
[04:30:16] <zeeshan> sOb
[04:30:27] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/xPJm85t.jpg
[04:30:36] <zeeshan> lol pete
[04:30:37] <furrywolf_> eh?
[04:30:41] <zeeshan> cnc4pc e-stop!
[04:30:47] <furrywolf_> I'm doing several things at once. did you say something to me?
[04:30:51] <zeeshan> yes
[04:30:55] <PetefromTn_> no not really its from ebay
[04:31:01] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/pDy30hV.jpg?1 ;;;;;;;;;;; ttp://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[04:31:04] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/pDy30hV.jpg?1 ;;;;;;;;;;; http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[04:31:09] <zeeshan> i wanted your expert opinion
[04:31:13] <zeeshan> if you think replacing the cap might make it work again
[04:31:16] <zeeshan> from the looks of it
[04:31:33] <zeeshan> that cap exploded and its soot ended up at that other v-reg or whatever that is side
[04:31:52] <PetefromTn_> expert opinion?
[04:32:01] <zeeshan> furrywolf_ is an expert electronics guru
[04:32:10] <furrywolf_> no I'm not. lol
[04:32:23] <PetefromTn_> what do you do for a living?
[04:32:32] <furrywolf_> drive a delivery van.
[04:33:09] <zeeshan> with dildos
[04:33:16] <furrywolf_> you'll also need to replace whatever the 3-legged to220 device is.
[04:33:20] <PetefromTn_> seriously
[04:33:20] <zeeshan> why
[04:33:23] <zeeshan> it doesnt look burnt
[04:33:33] <furrywolf_> and, if it did fail such that it overvolted the entire rail, everything on it could be fried.
[04:33:36] <PetefromTn_> georgenz Whats happenin?
[04:33:38] <furrywolf_> it had a burnt spot under it, no?
[04:33:42] <zeeshan> yes
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[04:33:46] <zeeshan> but i think a piece of the cap landed there
[04:33:48] <furrywolf_> no, I don't deliver dildos. lol. it'd be nice...
[04:33:48] <zeeshan> and thats all it was
[04:33:52] <zeeshan> it cleaned up good
[04:34:10] <PetefromTn_> furrywolf_ are you male or female?
[04:34:32] <zeeshan> what kind of female would have a name
[04:34:33] <zeeshan> "furry"
[04:34:34] <zeeshan> wolf
[04:34:35] <furrywolf_> I don't like that theory. I think some other component there, probably the big one, let smoke out.
[04:34:35] * furrywolf_ is soft and fluffy
[04:34:35] <zeeshan> :)
[04:34:42] furrywolf_ is now known as furrywolf
[04:34:57] <zeeshan> furrywolf: so if i just replace cap
[04:34:59] <zeeshan> and plug it in
[04:35:02] <zeeshan> it'll just explode again yea?
[04:35:04] <PetefromTn_> I honestly cannot imagine a man naming himself furry honestly
[04:35:21] <zeeshan> a gay man would
[04:35:24] * zeeshan hides
[04:35:40] * furrywolf only likes women
[04:36:00] <zeeshan> amc representative got back tome
[04:36:04] <PetefromTn_> so furry is a gay dildo delivery truck driver who happens to be an electronics expert?
[04:36:05] <zeeshan> with some amazing insght
[04:36:07] <zeeshan> are you guys ready for it?
[04:36:08] <furrywolf> something made that cap explode. if it happened once, random defect, sure... but if your second drive did the exact same thing...
[04:36:26] * furrywolf doesn't deliver dildos, and isn't an electronics expert
[04:36:31] <zeeshan> furrywolf: well it looks like its just a 24v cap
[04:36:35] <zeeshan> 25v cap
[04:36:41] <georgenz> Ok... progress
[04:36:48] <furrywolf> right. and it exploded because it got >>25V on it.
[04:36:48] <zeeshan> maybe some how the 60v tach signalk
[04:36:49] <PetefromTn_> AWESOME!
[04:36:51] <georgenz> Now it clicks and goes low
[04:36:51] <zeeshan> is making it to it
[04:37:00] <PetefromTn_> does the motor lock down?
[04:37:08] <georgenz> Motor locks and u can hear it hissing faintly
[04:37:17] <PetefromTn_> excellent...
[04:37:21] <PetefromTn_> can you move the axis?
[04:37:27] <zeeshan> It looks like something shorted. Do you have a wiring diagram? I can't really tell from the description of the failure what happened. Do you have a red LED or no LED?
[04:37:34] <zeeshan> thank you for your amazing insight amc.
[04:37:39] <georgenz> However there is no movement when I tell it to on the software
[04:37:39] <furrywolf> right, the 60V tach signal that is 0V during e-stop?
[04:37:51] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yea its 0v when motors arent moving
[04:37:58] <zeeshan> otherwise id have a run away condition
[04:37:58] <PetefromTn_> you hit the left or right arrow?
[04:37:58] <zeeshan> :P
[04:38:33] <georgenz> U mean + or -?
[04:38:34] <furrywolf> I suspect the big to220 part, the inductor, the diode next to the inductor, and those caps, form a switching power supply.
[04:38:47] <PetefromTn_> no on my machine it is left arrow right arrow for X axis
[04:38:58] <PetefromTn_> keyboard rather
[04:39:00] <zeeshan> furrywolf: you dont have to guess
[04:39:01] <zeeshan> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be25a20ac.pdf
[04:39:03] <zeeshan> page 2
[04:39:06] <zeeshan> maybe this helps.
[04:40:01] <zeeshan> the only switching power supply
[04:40:08] <zeeshan> canm be that "internal dc-to-dc converter"
[04:40:10] <furrywolf> that is a block diagram, not a schematic. heh.
[04:40:17] <zeeshan> yes
[04:40:18] <georgenz> No... nothing when i try that
[04:40:22] <zeeshan> but it should should a switching supply on there
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[04:41:27] <PetefromTn_> does the axis DRO's move when you press those buttons?
[04:41:43] <georgenz> Nope
[04:41:47] <furrywolf> "interal power supply for hall sensors" could include it. and that diagram doesn't show where the logic supplies are.
[04:41:59] <PetefromTn_> ok then it is not getting the commmand then for some reason.
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[04:42:50] <PetefromTn_> goto MDI and try to do like G0 X something close to where you are now and hit ok
[04:43:41] <furrywolf> measure the voltage on that capacitor on one of your working drives
[04:43:56] <zeeshan> and
[04:44:01] <furrywolf> be careful not to slip with the probes and make it a not-working supply
[04:44:13] <georgenz> I was wonderin if my CN1 plug is incorrectly wiree
[04:44:22] <georgenz> Wired
[04:44:44] <georgenz> Because the diagram for it in the manual is tge worst diagram i have ever seen
[04:44:48] <PetefromTn_> you could check for the encoder input to the 7i77 in hal maybe
[04:45:08] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know right. I had trouble with it as well...
[04:45:16] <furrywolf> that internal dc-dc shown on the block diagram is a low-current double-ended supply, while the big parts in the area of the damage are a single-ended high-current supply.
[04:46:08] <PetefromTn_> another thing to consider is to ensure your drives CN1 connections are the same as mine.... there are no guarantees that yours are the same despite being the same model as yours is a year or two newer now.
[04:46:12] <zeeshan> well
[04:46:19] <zeeshan> all the HV stuff should be near the motor leads.
[04:46:27] <zeeshan> where those 3 black boxes are with the blue caps
[04:46:36] <zeeshan> on the other side of the baord there is a shit load of big ass resistors
[04:46:42] <zeeshan> mounted right to the heat sink
[04:46:56] <zeeshan> you can actually see the philips screws for em.
[04:47:29] <PetefromTn_> refer to page 2.9 for the pinout and you can see they are NOT in order
[04:48:09] <furrywolf> so what's the voltage on that cap on a working unit?
[04:48:21] <zeeshan> do you rreally want to know? :)
[04:48:25] <zeeshan> is it a valuable piece of info
[04:48:29] <PetefromTn_> you can see from that diagram that the pins actually alternate from one row to the next counting up from one side to the other.
[04:48:46] <furrywolf> yes
[04:49:09] <furrywolf> because it tells you what that capacitor is doing and powering, or at least greatly narrows it down.
[04:49:17] <zeeshan> okay give me a few min
[04:49:19] <zeeshan> ill check it out
[04:49:25] <zeeshan> i need my special probes for this cause im butter fingers
[04:49:35] <PetefromTn_> migth be worth printing page 2.9 and 2.10 so you can look at them without having to flip back and forth all the time...
[04:50:24] <PetefromTn_> AND the as I recall the orientation of the connector to the drive is kind of funky somehow.
[04:50:39] <PetefromTn_> trying to remember everything and my memory for this stuff sux balls...
[04:51:19] <PetefromTn_> are you getting the encoder reading on the drive while the motor is enabled?
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[04:56:59] <georgenz> The reading when enabled is jst 0.000
[04:57:22] <georgenz> I am jst going over the cn1 connector now
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[05:02:10] <PetefromTn_> also check over the settings on the drive itself..
[05:04:17] <georgenz> Cn1 looks correct
[05:05:52] <zeeshan> furrywolf: 14.6V
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[05:07:07] <furrywolf> so it's probably a 12V or 15V supply. what parts run off 12v or 15v?
[05:07:37] <zeeshan> nothing that i know of
[05:07:52] <zeeshan> theres supposed to be +/-10v 3mA
[05:08:00] <zeeshan> and 5v fault signal
[05:08:17] <codepython7771> whats a good place to discuss 3d printers?
[05:08:17] <zeeshan> htheres a 6v supply for the hall sesnsors
[05:08:20] <furrywolf> so it's something internal, then.
[05:08:22] <zeeshan> codepython7771: #rerap
[05:08:30] <zeeshan> #reprap
[05:08:30] <zeeshan> sorry
[05:08:38] <furrywolf> how much poking do you want to do?
[05:08:44] <zeeshan> furrywolf: i dont mind pokin
[05:08:47] <zeeshan> i just dont want it to blow up again
[05:08:58] <zeeshan> well i want to find the reason it blew up
[05:08:59] <zeeshan> so i can correct it
[05:09:02] <codepython7771> zeeshan: thanks
[05:09:07] <furrywolf> can you measure the HV voltage? and can you measure that cap to the HV voltage?
[05:09:07] <zeeshan> if ends up being a shitty amc drive
[05:09:09] <zeeshan> ill buy better drives
[05:09:15] <zeeshan> i measured it already
[05:09:18] <zeeshan> @ the blue caps
[05:09:22] <zeeshan> its 170V
[05:09:34] <furrywolf> does the positive of the cap to the positive of the HV read 185V by any chance?
[05:09:55] <zeeshan> HV being
[05:10:08] <zeeshan> the thing that powers this entire board?
[05:10:26] <furrywolf> the big caps with 170V on them
[05:10:31] <georgenz> I think my issue is setting in the drives
[05:10:32] <zeeshan> okay
[05:10:34] <zeeshan> brb
[05:11:01] <PetefromTn_> my drives are setup for speed or velocity analog control
[05:11:02] <georgenz> I dont think it has come factory default to analog
[05:12:12] <zeeshan> 156 V
[05:12:38] <zeeshan> sounds like its just
[05:12:41] <zeeshan> 170V - 14.6
[05:12:53] <furrywolf> ok, so it is 15V, and not 170+15V for high-side gate drivers.
[05:13:21] <georgenz> Do u know how to setup the drives??
[05:13:32] <furrywolf> but it IS on a common ground with them, so it's an internal voltage probably relating to the output section, and nothing to do with your inputs.
[05:13:42] <PetefromTn_> I am trying to remember man heh
[05:13:47] <zeeshan> nice!
[05:13:54] <PetefromTn_> looking thru the manual now
[05:13:57] <zeeshan> like furrywolf
[05:14:03] <zeeshan> should i measure between control ground
[05:14:07] <zeeshan> and the + of the yellow cap?
[05:14:18] <zeeshan> and if it says 0V i can be confident it's nothing to do with my input side?
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[05:14:59] <furrywolf> well, re-reading the diagram, it could be control ground and power ground aren't isolated, so never mind.
[05:15:25] <zeeshan> well isn't a floating ground
[05:15:28] <zeeshan> supposed to be isolated?
[05:15:36] <zeeshan> so for example p1-2 inthat block diagram
[05:15:39] <furrywolf> the diagram says isolation is an option
[05:15:48] <zeeshan> mine has isolation..
[05:16:33] <furrywolf> they could well be joined in external circuitry, too. you'd need to pull your control plugs.
[05:16:47] <zeeshan> im gonna check p1-2 to that cap
[05:17:03] <zeeshan> i should just bring this thing upstairs
[05:17:08] <zeeshan> so i dont have to keep going up and down lol
[05:20:42] <zeeshan> p1-2 to +side of cap
[05:20:43] <zeeshan> reads 0v
[05:21:05] <zeeshan> i have nothing connected to the drive
[05:21:11] <zeeshan> no motor leads, no control plugs. only ac power
[05:21:39] <furrywolf> so it's definitely not part of the input logic, then.
[05:22:07] <zeeshan> i measured one leg of that black thing
[05:22:16] <zeeshan> that looked charred before, i think you called it a to something.
[05:22:20] <zeeshan> it measures 64V
[05:22:30] <zeeshan> the other leg measures 51V
[05:22:42] <zeeshan> no idea what that thing is.
[05:23:06] <furrywolf> it's something you probably need a 'scope to usefully diagnose...
[05:23:26] <furrywolf> if, and that's a big if, it is a smps.
[05:23:36] <zeeshan> okay
[05:23:40] <zeeshan> im gonna check one of those small caps
[05:23:46] <zeeshan> that blew up on the second failure
[05:23:51] <zeeshan> and probe it to p1-2
[05:23:52] <furrywolf> what's the voltage on the big inductor on the end not connected to that capacitor?
[05:24:03] <zeeshan> the red thing?
[05:24:07] <zeeshan> the choke?
[05:24:07] <furrywolf> yes
[05:24:14] <zeeshan> will need to check
[05:24:15] <furrywolf> measured to the negative of the capacitor
[05:24:23] <zeeshan> which leg of the inductor
[05:24:36] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/jkoYNjd.jpg?1
[05:24:41] <zeeshan> right or left
[05:25:01] <furrywolf> the end away from the capacitor
[05:25:05] <zeeshan> okay
[05:25:50] <furrywolf> the end nearest the capacitor should read 15V just like the capacitor, unless I'm mis-following traces.
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[05:28:19] <bobo_> zeeshun does your meter read frequency ?
[05:28:42] <zeeshan> 27V from far away leg of inductor to - side of cap
[05:28:45] <zeeshan> 21V across inductor
[05:28:56] <zeeshan> 0V between P1-2 and the smaller cap that blew up last time
[05:29:16] <zeeshan> approx 12.5 v across the small cap
[05:29:51] <furrywolf> ok, since the inductor has voltage across it, it's definitely part of a switch-mode power supply. if it were just functioning as a choke, you'd only get a tiny voltage from its dc resistance.
[05:30:03] <zeeshan> bobo_: yes it has frequency measurement
[05:30:07] <zeeshan> 9.999 hz to 999.99 khz
[05:30:24] <furrywolf> and the cap positive connects directly to the leg of the inductor that's right near it, right?
[05:31:19] <furrywolf> I'm still going to go with my original theory... the regulator is shorting, and dumping high voltage onto the 15v bus, causing caps to explode.
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[05:31:34] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[05:31:40] <zeeshan> the leg closest to the cap
[05:31:48] <zeeshan> connects to the + side of the cap
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[05:31:58] <zeeshan> (cap is missing there)
[05:32:03] <renesis> buck reg
[05:32:29] <furrywolf> you've now shown that capacitor is the filter for a switchmode power supply, with that inductor... the most likely problem is the switchmode supply stopped switching, either due to logic failure or pass transistor failure, and dumped its input directly into the output.
[05:32:53] <zeeshan> what kind of dumb shit is that?
[05:32:55] <zeeshan> that on failure
[05:33:01] <zeeshan> it dumps high voltage
[05:33:10] <renesis> its called basic electronics
[05:33:15] <furrywolf> normal for buck topology. that's pretty much always how they fail.
[05:33:19] <zeeshan> you cant design around that?
[05:33:23] <furrywolf> you can, yes.
[05:33:25] <furrywolf> they didn't. :P
[05:33:26] <renesis> SMPS are all basically on the edge of catastrophic failure during normal operation
[05:33:33] <zeeshan> gay
[05:33:38] <renesis> if its stops switching in a closed state, shit dies
[05:33:40] <zeeshan> you know whats fucked?
[05:33:47] <zeeshan> in the mode im operating the servo
[05:33:47] <renesis> its not gay it is what it is
[05:33:49] <zeeshan> i dont even using that
[05:33:53] <zeeshan> buck converter supply.
[05:33:54] <renesis> you want efficiency, its higher risk
[05:33:59] <zeeshan> fuck efficiency
[05:34:01] <zeeshan> its a cnc machine
[05:34:09] <zeeshan> reliability is more important
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[05:34:12] <furrywolf> how do you know you're not using it? I suspect it's powering a fair portion of the internal workings.
[05:34:18] <bobo_> furrywolf what if switcher is locking up due to AC input power cycling ?
[05:34:30] <renesis> i think thats the case
[05:34:49] <zeeshan> furrywolf: well im looking at the block diagram
[05:34:51] <furrywolf> bobo: then it's a piss-poor design and some engineer needs a new job flipping burgers
[05:34:58] <renesis> it looks like an old pwm chip supply, so a lot of the startup and protection stuff is sensitive discrete analog stuff
[05:35:00] <zeeshan> the only thing the dc-dc converter is used for
[05:35:01] <furrywolf> the block diagram doesn't show this power supply.
[05:35:04] <renesis> theyre known for fucking up, heh
[05:35:08] <zeeshan> is the dinky little +10v and -10v signal
[05:35:16] <furrywolf> the dc-dc converter shown on the diagram is somewhere else on the board.
[05:35:19] <zeeshan> oh
[05:35:49] <zeeshan> okay now that you know this information
[05:35:53] <renesis> thats just looks like a logic rail, not bipolar, lots of current
[05:35:54] <zeeshan> can we extend it to my second failure?
[05:35:58] <renesis> thats a big inductor
[05:36:01] <zeeshan> where that cap never failed.
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[05:36:17] <renesis> did the transistor fail?
[05:36:34] <zeeshan> renesis: doesnt look like it.
[05:36:37] <zeeshan> http://imgur.com/a/fKIOl#0
[05:36:43] <renesis> what failed then
[05:36:43] <zeeshan> just a heads up
[05:36:50] <zeeshan> you can click on the top right and you'll see a gear
[05:36:54] <zeeshan> and you can make the image much larger
[05:37:02] <renesis> its img
[05:37:03] <furrywolf> can you follow the traces to see what connects to the other end of the inductor?
[05:37:06] <renesis> i can just load the img
[05:37:08] <zeeshan> in the second failure, the only things i see that failed
[05:37:15] <zeeshan> are 3 capacitors.
[05:37:27] <bobo_> zeeshan can you check the time/voltage discharge of the 15 VDC when AC input is turned from on to off ?
[05:37:36] <furrywolf> the only things you SEE are just what popped before the fuse blew. chances are every part in that area of the board is suspect.
[05:37:39] <zeeshan> bobo_: about 12 seconds
[05:37:54] <renesis> that transistor looks fucked zee
[05:38:00] <zeeshan> renesis: updated pic:
[05:38:05] <renesis> it reflows the solder explosively, heh
[05:38:19] <renesis> *reflowed
[05:38:19] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[05:38:44] <furrywolf> can you see at all what the other end of the inductor runs to?
[05:38:49] <zeeshan> furrywolf: which side
[05:38:51] <zeeshan> right or left
[05:39:20] <renesis> http://i.imgur.com/DHNQJCv.jpg
[05:39:23] <furrywolf> other. the end away from the cap, not connected to the cap.
[05:39:33] <furrywolf> it runs to the big diode next to it, and where else?
[05:39:41] <renesis> the big transistor and the little sot23 to the right near the top
[05:39:48] <renesis> something baked there
[05:40:12] <renesis> which is consistent with the pwm getting stuck on and the transistor blowing open
[05:40:46] <zeeshan> what drives me insane is my x and y drives
[05:40:49] <renesis> whats the temp in your cabinet and whats ambient temp this is rated for?
[05:40:53] <zeeshan> have gone through the same number of power cycles
[05:40:55] <zeeshan> and they ahvent blown
[05:40:58] <renesis> theyre different drives
[05:41:00] <zeeshan> renesis: very f'in cold
[05:41:05] <zeeshan> renesis: they're the same drives
[05:41:05] <furrywolf> the transistor didn't blow option. it blew the capacitors because it was shorted.
[05:41:08] <zeeshan> same model.
[05:41:14] <renesis> old pwm smps are like snowflakes
[05:41:14] <zeeshan> same rev
[05:41:23] <furrywolf> s/option/open
[05:41:29] <renesis> every new batch of parts could make them behave differently
[05:41:36] <zeeshan> furrywolf: trying to trace the right leg of inductor
[05:41:48] <furrywolf> you might need to look under the inductor to see where the traces one... I mostly want to know if it runs to the big transistor.
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[05:41:52] <renesis> caps look fine in the second blowout?
[05:42:10] <furrywolf> different caps exploded the second time. probably same initial failure.
[05:42:15] <renesis> nothing looks damaged except the overheated area and transistor
[05:42:59] <renesis> also those smd ceramics are known to fail intermittenly in heavy vibration environments
[05:43:02] <bobo_> wonder if there is a sequence start up of the switching supplies ?
[05:43:05] <furrywolf> the failure could well have started somewhere else, with whatever voltage rail the regulator steps down going over or negative.
[05:43:06] <renesis> mostly the higher value ones
[05:43:23] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/DHNQJCv.jpg
[05:43:29] <zeeshan> right leg of inductor goes to that thing called
[05:43:31] <renesis> they make flex term automotive grade ones because of it, and given all the numbers are scraped off this, i doubt they did that
[05:43:31] <zeeshan> t01 c228
[05:43:35] <zeeshan> then it goes to the cap
[05:43:41] <zeeshan> on the very top right
[05:43:44] <furrywolf> vibration did not cause two drives to fail in the exact same fashion during power switching.
[05:43:53] <renesis> sure it would
[05:43:54] <zeeshan> then there is a trace that dissapears under the black ic.
[05:43:59] <renesis> happens in subwoofers with smps
[05:44:04] <zeeshan> renesis: stop it
[05:44:23] <zeeshan> no arguing!
[05:44:25] <renesis> stop what
[05:44:33] <renesis> dude, welcome to engineering and troubleshooting
[05:44:50] <zeeshan> furrywolf: does that help?
[05:45:20] <furrywolf> where else does it go?
[05:45:33] <renesis> anyway, im with bobo and the two other people who suspect power sequencing issues with the smps
[05:45:47] <renesis> which means anything near the smps chip could be the cause
[05:46:27] <furrywolf> why do you suspect that? I can think of lots of other causes.
[05:46:41] <renesis> because its a common issue and it hasnt been eliminated
[05:46:48] <renesis> because the damage is consistent with it
[05:46:53] <renesis> because it happens during power cycling
[05:46:54] <furrywolf> the 15v could be the gate drive for the outputs, and a blown output mosfet gate oxide could be dumping mains back into the gate supply.
[05:47:17] <furrywolf> right, but if it were a design issue like that, it'd affect all the drives, not just ones connected to the z motor.
[05:47:33] <Jymmm> evil mosfets
[05:47:38] <renesis> theyre different drives, no?
[05:47:52] <renesis> the circuit is the same? the enclosures arent and thatll effect it
[05:48:03] <furrywolf> or it could be bucking another internal rail, and that rail is going overvoltage or going negative on shutdown.
[05:48:06] <renesis> we fixed the issue on one pcb by adding a boss to reduce pcb trampolining
[05:48:14] <zeeshan> furrywolf: http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png
[05:48:16] <zeeshan> this is all i can make ou t
[05:48:21] <zeeshan> i think it connects to that chip.
[05:48:49] <renesis> ha
[05:48:56] <renesis> these chips are laser etched
[05:49:02] <renesis> the others ones look sanded
[05:49:47] <unfy> that's it
[05:50:00] <renesis> zeeshan: http://www.ti.com/product/tl494
[05:50:08] <renesis> check pinouts against that datasheet
[05:50:30] <unfy> i'm gonna make me a interface dongle to translate colemak keystrokes into qwerty. this whole back and forth between keyboard layouts here at work for the last few days is driving me bonkers.
[05:50:42] <renesis> http://www.st.com/st-web-ui/static/active/en/resource/technical/document/datasheet/CD00000958.pdf
[05:50:47] <renesis> and that guy
[05:51:16] <renesis> there are more smps based on those than anything else, and your pinout matches
[05:51:25] <renesis> laters
[05:52:20] <bobo_> zeeshan if you get a chance measure discharge time /volt of the big cap's ---175 ? VDC ones
[05:52:39] <zeeshan> bobo_: im wearing a face shield working on this
[05:52:39] <zeeshan> lol
[05:52:43] <zeeshan> everytime i discharge it
[05:52:46] <zeeshan> i expect it to blow up
[05:52:48] <zeeshan> but it hasnt so far
[05:52:49] <furrywolf> I'm failing at crossreferencing t01 c228, but my suspicion is a schottky diode.
[05:54:42] <bobo_> my thought is let it discharge for some time ----no fast power cycle
[05:55:01] <zeeshan> i have a q
[05:55:03] <furrywolf> this board is intentionally designed to be as difficult as possible to work on.
[05:55:04] <zeeshan> if it is a smps failure
[05:55:16] <zeeshan> will it also destroy those small dinky caps?
[05:55:20] <zeeshan> that happened in my second failure
[05:55:22] <renesis> furrywolf: last thing, i think you would have to concede that something with wiped chip labels could have sourcing or manufacturing issues as easily as design issues, which definitely could affect only some units. kind of the definition of that type of problem
[05:55:46] <bobo_> yes
[05:55:54] <renesis> werent the dinky caps on the regulated side?
[05:55:55] <furrywolf> the smps could fail due to a design flaw, like renesis thinks, or it could fail because power was fed back into its output, or its input could have gone overvoltage or negative.
[05:56:04] <renesis> could have overvolted them
[05:56:06] <zeeshan> well they measure 12.5 v
[05:56:14] <zeeshan> currently
[05:56:14] <furrywolf> if it failed such that the input ran to the output, EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT on its output could be fried.
[05:56:40] <zeeshan> two smps failures in a row
[05:56:43] <zeeshan> seems so weird.
[05:56:44] <zeeshan> :(
[05:57:05] <furrywolf> like I said earlier, if that supply runs the gate drives, a shorted motor could be blowing an output fet which could be dumping mains back into the gate drivers and back to the supply...
[05:57:12] <renesis> not if youre producing conditions that the sequencing isnt immune to
[05:57:25] <zeeshan> well
[05:57:28] <furrywolf> or, if it regulates down another rail, a different failure could be making that rail go overvoltage, or negative.
[05:57:29] <zeeshan> then x and y should blow too
[05:57:30] <zeeshan> in that case
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[05:57:41] <renesis> so to check furrys idea, you could pull the fet and check for normal operation
[05:57:48] <renesis> if you have bench supplys
[05:57:57] <furrywolf> the parts are sanded to make it slightly harder for china to produce clones
[05:58:08] <zeeshan> which FET?
[05:58:09] <renesis> zeeshan: x and y are diff drives, no?
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[05:58:13] <renesis> the output fet
[05:58:17] <zeeshan> renesis: for the 2nd time!!
[05:58:20] <zeeshan> they are the same!!
[05:58:22] <zeeshan> :P
[05:58:25] <furrywolf> If it is a SMPS issue, you need an oscilloscope to do any real work.
[05:58:34] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he seems to ignore 95% of what people say.
[05:58:48] <zeeshan> furrywolf: so, just to make you repeat again
[05:58:49] <zeeshan> and pull a ren
[05:58:56] <zeeshan> you're saying that if my motor coils are shorted
[05:59:01] <zeeshan> this is the exact type of failure i'd see
[05:59:03] <furrywolf> at this point a 'scope is probably required anyway, since everything to do with smps or transients needs one.
[05:59:12] <renesis> furry seems to exagerate a ton for effect
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[05:59:37] <furrywolf> no, I'm saying it's one of many possible theories. it's not what I'd expect a shorted motor to do, but it's a possible theory.
[05:59:51] <zeeshan> well if a shorted motor can blow something like this
[05:59:56] <zeeshan> this is a dog shit drive to begin with
[06:00:00] <renesis> but youve decided that invalidates like 4 others peoples because you dont like me =)
[06:00:04] <zeeshan> even the cheapest eaton vfd
[06:00:11] <renesis> anyway, this is goofy im out
[06:00:13] <zeeshan> has short detection.
[06:00:19] <furrywolf> as I said, it's not what I'd expect. I'm just listing possible options.
[06:00:37] <renesis> zeeshan: what youre doing isnt considered trivial in an engineering lab
[06:00:40] <zeeshan> renesis: i like u!
[06:00:43] <renesis> this is one of the more difficult issues
[06:01:07] <furrywolf> it could indeed be some stupid power sequencing thing like renesis said. but I'm not going to jump to conclusions like he has.
[06:01:09] <renesis> its hard as fuck to design an smps like that that wont fuckup in some condition
[06:01:25] <renesis> the fact that you say these drives are cheap means they had to design cheap
[06:01:31] <zeeshan> they arent cheap new
[06:01:31] <renesis> which is hard =(
[06:01:33] <zeeshan> theyre like 800 bux
[06:01:35] <zeeshan> to 1000
[06:01:41] <renesis> how did that happen
[06:01:48] <furrywolf> it's a simple buck converter, non-isolated, with control circuitry running off the input voltage. this is far easier to make start up properly than an isolated off-mains supply.
[06:01:50] <renesis> maybe yours were known problems someone was trying to off?
[06:01:52] <renesis> or fake?
[06:02:12] <zeeshan> well they sold me 2 good ones :)
[06:02:22] <renesis> furrywolf: yeah but it still looks hella discrete
[06:02:23] <zeeshan> and ive already power cycled this drive im working on
[06:02:25] <zeeshan> 4 times
[06:02:28] <zeeshan> and it hasn't blown up
[06:02:31] <zeeshan> but i guarantee you
[06:02:34] <zeeshan> i put fucking money on this
[06:02:37] <zeeshan> asap i connect it to my system
[06:02:40] <zeeshan> it'll blow the fuck up
[06:02:45] <bobo_> yes zeeshan would need a scope PLUS bunch of other stuff and bunches of AMC drive's to blast away at in finding the cause
[06:02:46] <zeeshan> ill even make a fucking video of it
[06:02:48] <renesis> anyway i thought you meant the spindle drive the whole time
[06:02:50] <zeeshan> because i know it will happen
[06:03:02] <renesis> bobo_: yeah totally
[06:03:06] <furrywolf> it could be some design stupidity like your Z motor has lower resistance which causes it to trip overcurrent before the supply rail is up to full voltage, or any one of a zillion odd things...
[06:03:23] <renesis> well put an x drive on the z and see if it blows up
[06:03:23] <zeeshan> well im measuring 2 ohms or so
[06:03:28] <zeeshan> at the motor leads for z.
[06:03:30] <renesis> then you know its wiring
[06:03:37] <zeeshan> haha renesis
[06:03:38] <furrywolf> ... spindle drive? no, you bloody fucking knew what it was yesterday.
[06:03:48] <renesis> no i didnt
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[06:03:56] <renesis> i was looking at the big drive the whole time =)
[06:04:12] <renesis> cmon you can easily talk shit about me being wrong about that without making baseless assumptions
[06:04:18] <renesis> go for the low hanging fruit
[06:04:28] <bobo_> try power cycling on the 6Ga --220 feed. vers wimpy wall outlet
[06:04:50] <zeeshan> i dont wanna abuse my vfds
[06:04:51] <furrywolf> I'm not making a baseless assumption. I'm making a conclusion that anyone who was paying ANY ATTENTION AT ALL to the discussion would have noticed z drive mentioned at least twenty times.
[06:04:52] <zeeshan> for no reason
[06:04:52] <zeeshan> :)
[06:05:36] <zeeshan> i think im just gonna by pass the contactors.
[06:05:46] <zeeshan> fuck it
[06:05:53] <renesis> furrywolf: i hadnt slept in 40 hours
[06:05:59] <furrywolf> does the motor run smoothly during normal use?
[06:06:03] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[06:06:09] <furrywolf> then it's probably not shorted
[06:06:57] <zeeshan> i need to put a timer in line with my e-stop circuit
[06:07:04] <furrywolf> I do think you need a 'scope if you want to actually diagnose the failure process on the board, if you can't find anything wrong with the external parts.
[06:07:10] <zeeshan> that doesn't let me remove power for 10 min after e-stop
[06:07:22] <zeeshan> furrywolf: to be honest with you
[06:07:22] <furrywolf> then it'll just fry when there's a quick power outage or brownout.
[06:07:24] <zeeshan> all i care about is
[06:07:35] <furrywolf> I also think that the manufacturer should be doing this, not you.
[06:07:35] <zeeshan> not having it blow up again
[06:07:39] <bobo_> also said ? mill was operating ie all 3 axis moving
[06:07:45] <renesis> he didnt give the manufacturer money
[06:07:50] <renesis> they owe him nothing
[06:08:04] <zeeshan> oh trust me, if i get have the manufacturer money
[06:08:06] <furrywolf> renesis: so if you haven't slept in 40 hours and your brain isn't functioning, keep the mouth from functioning too.
[06:08:08] <zeeshan> you'd defintely hear about it :)
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[06:08:11] <zeeshan> ROFL furrywolf
[06:08:12] <zeeshan> hahaha
[06:08:22] <zeeshan> i already know renesis's comeback
[06:08:31] <renesis> really?
[06:08:33] <zeeshan> yea
[06:08:36] <zeeshan> you're prolly gonna be like
[06:08:38] <renesis> im still thinking of one throw me a bone
[06:08:50] <zeeshan> "i'm typing"
[06:08:51] <zeeshan> or something
[06:08:58] <zeeshan> :P
[06:09:01] <renesis> naw im dont diff, typing and talking
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[06:09:13] <renesis> but is a good idea
[06:09:27] <zeeshan> whats a brown out condition
[06:09:29] <renesis> also its not like it changes a ton of what i said
[06:09:36] <zeeshan> to me it sounds like someone having a bad day on the toilet
[06:09:39] <furrywolf> zeeshan: he thinks cars are semitrucks and relays are contactors... you think he's going to discriminate between communication methods?
[06:09:46] <zeeshan> furrywolf: lol
[06:09:47] <renesis> and its not like my main suspisions are diff
[06:09:48] <zeeshan> hahahahaha
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[06:09:52] <zeeshan> TWICE in a row
[06:09:53] <zeeshan> diss.
[06:10:07] <renesis> furry thinks a gate blew, so cut the trace to the gate and ohm and diode test it
[06:10:16] <renesis> if it conducts, shes right, if no, move on
[06:10:19] <furrywolf> brownout is when the line voltage dips abnormally low, usually more than 15% under rating. (95V or so)
[06:10:31] <furrywolf> renesis: no, I was just giving other possibilities.
[06:10:31] <zeeshan> this drive has a rating for 25-125VAC
[06:10:42] <renesis> and no furry
[06:10:43] <zeeshan> infact i connected it to a 60VAC supply
[06:10:49] <renesis> i think cars and trucks are both vehicles
[06:10:50] <zeeshan> to test them out when i got em
[06:10:56] <renesis> and that contactors are a type of relay
[06:10:59] <zeeshan> then moved up to 120vac
[06:11:01] <renesis> again, exgeration for effect
[06:11:03] <zeeshan> cause someone told me to take it easy on the caps.
[06:11:19] <renesis> furrywolf: well im giving ways he can test the possibilities
[06:11:30] <zeeshan> furrywolf: remember this blew up
[06:11:32] <zeeshan> on power up
[06:11:35] <zeeshan> not power down
[06:11:39] <furrywolf> and you are running it off 120v, not 240, right? :)
[06:11:43] <renesis> did you test all of them at 60vac
[06:11:43] <zeeshan> yes 120vac sir
[06:11:48] <zeeshan> yea renesis
[06:11:48] <renesis> or just the ones you blew up
[06:11:53] <zeeshan> i let them charge slowly
[06:11:55] <zeeshan> and then 125vac
[06:12:00] <furrywolf> it could have failed on power down, but didn't have any more power to do anything noticable.
[06:12:07] <renesis> ya
[06:12:09] <zeeshan> furrywolf: good pint
[06:12:41] <zeeshan> well guys
[06:12:44] <zeeshan> im gonna hook this drive up.
[06:12:46] <zeeshan> to Z axis
[06:12:49] <PetefromTn_> well guys looks like Georgenz was able to get his X axis servo powered up and locked down with enable. now to get it tuned and ready to install into the machine for a final tuning.
[06:12:51] <zeeshan> and make a video for you of the explosion
[06:13:13] <renesis> dunno how much thats going to help
[06:13:21] <bobo_> zeeshan wate
[06:13:22] <renesis> itll just prove its prob a wiring issue
[06:13:26] <furrywolf> for example, let's say inductive kickback from some component caused the rail being regulated down with this regulator to go negative, frying the control logic. nothing interesting would happen then, since it's a tiny spike that wouldn't cause visible damage, but the damage is done. then, when you power it up, it explodes.
[06:13:46] <zeeshan> what could externally
[06:13:50] <zeeshan> cause the kickback
[06:13:59] <zeeshan> we already found out the motor coil is ok
[06:14:05] <zeeshan> motor winding
[06:14:06] <renesis> and why wouldnt there be a diode to protect from that somewhwre =(
[06:14:22] <renesis> maybe that guy blew up
[06:14:25] <furrywolf> since your drives are isolated, nothing on the input side should matter.
[06:14:43] <bobo_> first power all the drives from same leg ---eithry L1 or L2
[06:15:13] <furrywolf> troubleshooting issues with smpses or transients really needs a 'scope, if it's not something obvious.
[06:15:17] <bobo_> either L1 or L2
[06:15:17] <zeeshan> bobo_: how about this
[06:15:23] <zeeshan> i plug it in my controller
[06:15:31] <zeeshan> with the control stuff not hooked up
[06:15:34] <zeeshan> nor the motor leads
[06:15:35] <zeeshan> and power cycle it.
[06:15:36] <renesis> zee would prob do more damage with a scope than it would help
[06:16:15] <furrywolf> but, the worst part, is you might need to catch it in the act of failing... which means a big stack of disposable drives.
[06:16:21] <zeeshan> lol
[06:16:30] <zeeshan> the question is
[06:16:39] <zeeshan> do you think its something external?
[06:17:30] <furrywolf> unless your motor or tach is shorted to power, I don't know what it could be.
[06:17:30] <renesis> if you swap a drive over and well know but if it is youll be out another drive
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[06:17:36] <bobo_> I am still thinking the AC input could use some impedance at start up
[06:18:27] <zeeshan> like a diode?
[06:18:35] <zeeshan> or you mean literally an inductor
[06:18:37] <furrywolf> is the wiring for the brake completely separate from the wiring to the motor?
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[06:18:39] <renesis> no like a resistor and a timed relay
[06:18:43] <zeeshan> furrywolf: yes
[06:18:48] <zeeshan> wait
[06:18:49] <zeeshan> no its not
[06:18:52] <renesis> or an NTC
[06:18:55] <zeeshan> its a 5 pin connector
[06:19:17] <zeeshan> 2 pins are motor winding going to drive
[06:19:31] <zeeshan> 2 pins go to brake relays
[06:19:37] <zeeshan> 1 is earth
[06:19:45] <furrywolf> is the motor single or three phase?
[06:19:49] <zeeshan> single
[06:19:56] <zeeshan> dc brush
[06:20:23] <furrywolf> ... what are your x and y motors?
[06:20:28] <zeeshan> dc brush
[06:20:30] <zeeshan> w/ tacho
[06:20:32] <zeeshan> no brake
[06:21:23] <renesis> so you can swap the drive with same motor, or keep the drive and swap motor, and thatll tell you which side externally, but this is all destructuve testing =(
[06:21:25] <furrywolf> the manual suggests it's meant for driving 3ph ac motors. lol
[06:21:40] <zeeshan> furrywolf: nah
[06:21:42] <zeeshan> its for both
[06:21:54] <zeeshan> theres another pdf
[06:22:04] <bobo_> resistor and timed relay is good
[06:22:22] <renesis> better than an NTC, ya
[06:22:37] <zeeshan> http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/time-delay-relay-din-rail-38087-2763437.jpg
[06:22:39] <zeeshan> basically one of those
[06:22:51] <zeeshan> so i put that inseries with my e-stop
[06:22:54] <furrywolf> what's your exact model number?
[06:23:02] <renesis> nice they make a little module
[06:23:02] <zeeshan> be25a20acg-inv
[06:23:23] <zeeshan> "delay time set to 10 days"
[06:23:27] <zeeshan> nothings gonna blow up!
[06:23:27] <zeeshan> :P
[06:23:47] <renesis> zeeshan: in series with your power
[06:23:52] <bobo_> in series with servo drivers AC input
[06:23:55] <renesis> you use the relay to short out a series resistor
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[06:24:16] <zeeshan> why cant i delay the e-stop button
[06:24:17] <renesis> so when finished powering up, the resistor is not in circuit
[06:24:35] <zeeshan> iguess cause someone can disconnect
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[06:25:17] <renesis> you could use that timed relay to to drive a contactor that shorts out a series power resistor
[06:25:41] <bobo_> E stop olly shuts off AC input
[06:25:44] <furrywolf> do you have an inductance figure for your motors?
[06:25:51] <zeeshan> yes furry
[06:26:10] <renesis> zeeshan: do the drives click during powerup?
[06:26:10] <furrywolf> and it is? :)
[06:26:20] <zeeshan> nah
[06:26:23] <zeeshan> only contactors click
[06:26:27] <zeeshan> clunk more like
[06:26:49] <renesis> then they maybe dont have much or anything for inrush protection
[06:26:53] <renesis> oh haha
[06:26:58] <renesis> ya if they use an NTC
[06:27:13] <renesis> then quick power cycling could defeat functionality
[06:27:25] <renesis> because it doesnt have time to cool to hi z again
[06:28:27] <renesis> i imagine it would have to be a rather large ntc in this application, or one so small that it hardly reduces inrush
[06:28:46] <renesis> large in terms of power, small in terms of cold state resistance
[06:29:40] <renesis> also it may not happen if you were to power cycle without letting the temps saturate inside the vfd case
[06:29:48] <zeeshan> 3.4 mH
[06:29:52] <zeeshan> is the inductance
[06:29:52] <renesis> so a quick test may not do it
[06:30:25] <renesis> zeeshan: how long were they one when you power cycled?
[06:30:26] <furrywolf> ok, that's more than the 250uH minimum for the drive. just checking. :)
[06:31:00] <renesis> and NTC is negative temp coefficient resistor (dunno if you know, sorry for assuming you dont)
[06:31:04] <zeeshan> they were on for like
[06:31:07] <zeeshan> 5 min
[06:31:17] <zeeshan> i dont know that renesis
[06:31:19] <renesis> driven at all?
[06:31:26] <zeeshan> yea i drove em around in that 5 min
[06:31:27] <renesis> or idle
[06:31:34] <zeeshan> they idled for like 2 min
[06:31:36] <zeeshan> drove around for 1 min
[06:31:44] <zeeshan> then waited 1 min or so
[06:31:46] <zeeshan> maybe 2m in
[06:31:48] <zeeshan> and power cyclked
[06:31:59] <renesis> did you ever power cycle them cool
[06:32:06] <renesis> like, just idle, unloaded, without issues?
[06:32:20] <zmfg> have anyone tried installing linuxcnc for hardware control into unbuntu 14.04?
[06:32:20] <zeeshan> the first failure was with no running at all
[06:32:21] <renesis> the way am NTC inrush limiter works is when its cold, its high resistance
[06:32:25] <furrywolf> and you're using only the a and b terminals, with the dip switches set like they instruct?
[06:32:31] <zeeshan> furrywolf: exactly
[06:32:35] <renesis> then when current goes through it warms up and lowers its resistance for normal use
[06:32:45] <renesis> so if it stays warm between power cycling, it wont work
[06:33:05] <renesis> if it doesnt click, it doesnt have relay/resistor inrush limiting, so an NTC is an alternative to that
[06:33:18] <zeeshan> honestly
[06:33:20] <zeeshan> there is no reason during e-stop
[06:33:28] <zeeshan> that i should be cutting power to the mains of the servo drives
[06:33:36] <zeeshan> i think its a shitty way of doing e-stop
[06:33:39] <zeeshan> and i always thought this in the beginning
[06:33:41] <renesis> it doesnt matter you have to make sure it doesnt die in an outage
[06:33:48] <zeeshan> people in here convinced me, that it is the proper way to do it.
[06:33:54] <zeeshan> to me it makes no sense
[06:34:04] <zeeshan> they're NORmally disabled!
[06:34:08] <zeeshan> so the servo's CANT run
[06:34:15] <renesis> as opposed to sending modbus stop?
[06:34:22] <zeeshan> this has nothing to do w/ modbus
[06:34:23] <zeeshan> thats the vfd
[06:34:28] <zeeshan> this is purely the servo drives
[06:34:34] <zeeshan> in an emergency, when you press e-stop
[06:34:37] <zeeshan> you should be sending a drive disable
[06:34:41] <renesis> so you just let them idle?
[06:34:55] <zeeshan> not killing the power to the drive
[06:35:00] <renesis> if the reason you estopped is because one of them is misbehaving, then your estop wouldnt be effective
[06:35:08] <renesis> i think thats where people are coming from
[06:35:17] <zeeshan> well if one of them is misbehaving
[06:35:19] <zeeshan> and you press e-stop
[06:35:25] <zeeshan> it'll force all drives to disable
[06:35:38] <renesis> what if its broken and ignores disable
[06:35:58] <zeeshan> i guess that would suck
[06:35:58] <zeeshan> haha
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[06:36:18] <renesis> a lot of safety related design is to deal with shit that almost never ever happens
[06:36:23] <renesis> but would be really bad if it did
[06:36:37] <furrywolf> is the brake part of the motor, or completely separate?
[06:36:38] <zeeshan> i just wanna use my machine :(
[06:36:42] <zeeshan> furrywolf: part of motor
[06:36:52] <furrywolf> and you're positive there's no hidden switch in the motor?
[06:37:04] <zeeshan> what do you mean a hidden switch
[06:37:17] <furrywolf> that disconnects the motor when the brake is on
[06:37:52] <renesis> turn the brake on check resistance
[06:37:53] <zeeshan> that is a good q.
[06:37:54] zmfg is now known as flew
[06:38:02] <zeeshan> renesis: rewrite that please
[06:38:04] <zeeshan> that doesnt make sense haha
[06:38:29] <renesis> turn the brake on and check resistance across the motor coils
[06:38:35] <furrywolf> he's saying to measure the motor coil resistance while turning the brake on and off, and make sure it doesn't go open, short, or do other weird things.
[06:38:37] <renesis> and see if theyre open
[06:38:52] <renesis> haha yeah if it goes short theres your fuckin problem!
[06:38:52] <zeeshan> good idea
[06:39:01] <zeeshan> i got some pics for you guys
[06:39:05] <zeeshan> sorry about the german
[06:39:19] <furrywolf> I've never seen one with such a switch, but I'm trying to think of all the options I can. :P
[06:39:33] <renesis> well its easy to test so not a bad idea to make sure
[06:39:39] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ieOhxuJ.png
[06:39:41] <bobo_> block the tabel
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[06:39:47] <zeeshan> right is the brake
[06:39:49] <zeeshan> left is the tachogen.
[06:40:50] <zeeshan> gonna test out the brake theory
[06:40:51] <zeeshan> brb :P
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[06:42:46] <bobo_> wish there was a arc suppresor located at brake coil
[06:43:52] <renesis> zee should prob get a handheld scope
[06:44:29] <renesis> hell blow shit up trying to troubleshoot this with a normal scope, kinda hard not to
[06:44:41] <renesis> and i dont think he can afford an isolated diff scope
[06:45:06] <renesis> prob cost as much as the mill, way more for a tektronix one
[06:45:16] <renesis> prob even used =(
[06:45:25] <renesis> those things are so fuckin badass for audio tho
[06:45:33] <furrywolf> as long as you don't connect two probe grounds at once, you're not going to blow anything up.
[06:45:56] <bobo_> scope + big box of scope leads to learn about gnd loops
[06:45:57] <renesis> what do you mean?
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[06:46:03] <renesis> if the scope is floated yeah
[06:46:08] <renesis> but were not trying to kill zee
[06:46:08] <furrywolf> yes
[06:46:18] <renesis> i fuck with him because i want him to become less of an ass
[06:46:24] <furrywolf> I have a 10A isolation transformer for when I need to do things like that. :P
[06:46:27] <renesis> not because i want him to die
[06:46:35] <toastydeath> zzzzap
[06:46:44] <renesis> yeah i dont think he has one of those
[06:47:33] <furrywolf> I often float my 'scopes...
[06:47:41] <toastydeath> whaaaat
[06:47:45] <toastydeath> why on earth
[06:47:58] <renesis> haha i once kill a $2500 active speaker amp because i rung out an amp output for ground and connected scope
[06:48:01] <renesis> and it blew up
[06:48:16] <bobo_> isolation Xfmr are great only if you pay close attention
[06:48:17] <renesis> and i checked again and the dmm beeped because the speaker was 8 ohm and it beeped under 10
[06:48:21] <renesis> =(
[06:48:35] <furrywolf> I blew a nice fisher hifi amp that way once... don't remember the exact circumstances, but I thought it was floating, when it wasn't.
[06:48:39] <renesis> toastydeath: its actually very common in audio
[06:48:44] <renesis> ive done it
[06:49:03] <renesis> but its dangerous as fuck to use cheater plugs, kill the next person to use the gear
[06:49:15] <toastydeath> except every scope mfg warns people not to do that
[06:49:32] <renesis> right because it can kill mfkrs
[06:49:53] <renesis> but some of the best techs (like, CTO genius types) will have a floated scope at the bench all the time
[06:50:02] <renesis> scary shit
[06:50:31] <toastydeath> i'm not saying there's never a reason to do it, but i'd not want to make a habit of it under anything but extraordinary circumstances
[06:50:38] <renesis> like, you shouldnt handle live smps because the rectified mains can kill you
[06:50:52] <renesis> but ive shorted out 360V charged caps across my hand prob a dozen time
[06:51:01] <renesis> only dropped the psu a couple of those times!
[06:51:21] <toastydeath> hahaha
[06:51:21] <renesis> toastydeath: sadly safety often gets trashed when schedules are involved, shrug
[06:51:38] <renesis> not like im proud of it but gotta get shit done with what you got
[06:52:01] <renesis> when you have money you just buy a battery powered diff scope with isolated channels
[06:52:23] * furrywolf doesn't have money
[06:52:32] <renesis> i dont but some of the places i worked for did
[06:52:44] <furrywolf> I'm going to be seriously screwed next month... losing a $2500/yr contract, and I do not have $2500/yr spare.
[06:52:45] <renesis> the places that do overnight shipping every time will buy you a floated diff scope
[06:52:53] <renesis> the places that think twice about 2nd day air wont
[06:53:07] <toastydeath> tru
[06:53:16] <toastydeath> although i've seen isolation amps on ebay for not a ton of dollars
[06:53:22] <renesis> shipping method seems to be a really good gauge of company finances, heh
[06:53:36] <renesis> yeah but theyre a bitch to move around
[06:53:44] <renesis> which is a dumb excuse but the truth
[06:54:02] <toastydeath> ..?
[06:54:11] <toastydeath> isolation amps are hard to move?
[06:54:19] <toastydeath> the ones I've seen are like, half the size of a scope or less
[06:54:35] <renesis> i dunno we always had big high current ones around
[06:54:54] <renesis> would be almost the size of a regulated mains ac power supply
[06:55:07] <toastydeath> we may be talking about different things, i'm talking about a scope probe amplifier
[06:55:15] <renesis> and you can get cheater plugs at a hardware store in 15 minutes for $2
[06:55:17] * furrywolf wonders if zee managed to electrocute himself, since this should have been a 30-second test.
[06:55:26] <renesis> ooooh
[06:55:52] <toastydeath> optoisolation amp/whatever you want to call it
[06:55:59] <renesis> yeah sorry i read over the 'amp' part, and yeah that shit always breaks
[06:56:02] <renesis> like current probes
[06:56:25] <renesis> most of the ones ive seen in labs were old, broken, or just laughably off in measurements
[06:56:47] <furrywolf> isolation often leads to being laughably off. isolation is hard.
[06:58:00] <renesis> like, they were using a current probe for measurements for psu spec at one job for years
[06:58:03] * furrywolf pokes zee with an insulated stick
[06:58:08] <renesis> and it didnt match up with my sense resistor reading
[06:58:39] <renesis> and i checked the rating of the probe, and they had been using it at constant duty for a current level it was rated at ms for
[06:58:58] <renesis> theyre like BUT IT SAYS THIS MANY CURRENTS and i am like YA BUT THERES A CURVE!
[06:59:03] <furrywolf> so, theories? did he find the problem? did he electrocute himself? did he get distracted watching cat videos on youtube?
[06:59:26] <renesis> maybe went to sleep
[06:59:33] <renesis> maybe tried swapping vfd or motors
[06:59:35] <renesis> shrug
[06:59:45] <renesis> my friend died i dont want to do homework
[06:59:46] <renesis> =(
[06:59:51] <furrywolf> which I should have done two hours ago, but was trying to help him...
[07:00:04] <bobo_> cat videos
[07:00:06] <renesis> its a fun prob to troubleshoot
[07:04:36] <zeeshan> nothin
[07:04:40] <zeeshan> out of the ordinary
[07:04:47] <zeeshan> sorry i was playing around with the x and y
[07:04:53] <zeeshan> and killing power on them rapidly
[07:04:56] <zeeshan> they didnt blow up
[07:05:05] <zeeshan> and the other drive thats my last spare drive
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[07:05:12] <zeeshan> i power cycled that like a mad man using a wall outlet
[07:05:19] <zeeshan> i pulled the plug, 2 sec later plugged it in
[07:05:23] <zeeshan> 5 sec pulled it out
[07:05:26] <furrywolf> so motor readings did nothing odd when switching the brake on and off?
[07:05:28] <zeeshan> then 20 sec plugged it in
[07:05:29] <zeeshan> it doesnt blow up
[07:05:32] <zeeshan> i did this like 8 times
[07:05:47] <zeeshan> well when the brake is disabled
[07:05:52] <zeeshan> the z axis is going to move a little
[07:06:01] <zeeshan> so it tries to go to 0 ohms
[07:06:15] <zeeshan> but when i keep the axis stationary
[07:06:23] <furrywolf> does it stabalize at normal once it's sitting on your block?
[07:06:24] <zeeshan> it stays at the 1-2 ohm reading im geting.
[07:06:39] <zeeshan> ofcourse the motor will generate voltage
[07:06:40] <zeeshan> when its moving
[07:06:46] <furrywolf> and it stays the same putting the brake on, right?
[07:06:51] <zeeshan> which was inthe realm of .8-2volts max
[07:06:57] <zeeshan> yes
[07:07:24] <furrywolf> ok, now you know another problem it's not. :)
[07:07:25] <furrywolf> bbl, sleep.
[07:07:29] <zeeshan> gnite!
[07:07:33] <bobo_> AC source impedance
[07:07:41] <zeeshan> bobo_: it didnt blow up!! :P
[07:08:05] <anarchos2> anyone want to buy some stepper motor covers? i bought the wrong ones :(
[07:08:23] <zeeshan> anarchos2: we dont buy in here
[07:08:27] <zeeshan> we get donations :-)
[07:08:37] <renesis> 11:12:27 < bobo_> AC source impedance
[07:08:40] <renesis> ^
[07:08:44] <bobo_> wall outlet vers at mill
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[07:12:42] <zeeshan> Do not reverse the power supply leads! Severe damage will result! � If using relays or othe r means to disconnect th e motor leads, be sure the drive is disabled before reconnecting the motor leads to the drive. Connecting the motor leads to the drive while it is enabled can generate extremely high voltage spikes which will damage the drive.
[07:12:55] <zeeshan> hm
[07:13:04] <zeeshan> nm thats about output side
[07:13:36] <renesis> so bad connection could blow it
[07:14:02] <bobo_> same stuff for a VFD
[07:14:17] <zeeshan> yea but at least in the vfd case
[07:14:19] <zeeshan> it has protection
[07:14:27] <zeeshan> if it detects a motor disconnection
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[07:14:31] <zeeshan> it'll go in limp mode automatically
[07:14:36] <zeeshan> ive tested this before
[07:14:49] <renesis> i wonder if thats actually furrys name
[07:14:49] <zeeshan> and if you try to short the phases
[07:14:58] <zeeshan> it'll detect a phase fault
[07:15:03] <zeeshan> randy g?
[07:15:04] <zeeshan> :P
[07:15:12] <renesis> thats my name
[07:15:17] <zeeshan> seriously?
[07:15:18] <zeeshan> lol
[07:15:22] <renesis> not the g part
[07:15:25] <zeeshan> haha
[07:15:48] <zeeshan> protection mechanisms:
[07:16:16] <zeeshan> over-voltage, under voltage, over-current, overheating, and short circuits across motors, ground and power leads
[07:16:19] <zeeshan> SO ITS NONE of those.
[07:16:31] <renesis> naw thats not true
[07:16:43] <renesis> that just means in test conditions in a lab they got a few of them to pass
[07:16:56] <renesis> dont assume protection will always work
[07:17:07] <zeeshan> well w/ industrial stuff you usally can
[07:17:12] <zeeshan> they're vigorously tested
[07:17:20] <renesis> also note it doesnt say inrush protection
[07:17:21] <zeeshan> i just really think this drive is shit.
[07:17:31] <renesis> dude its got wiped chips
[07:17:49] <zeeshan> theyre so fucking dumb
[07:17:51] <zeeshan> if someone wants to copy it
[07:17:56] <zeeshan> they really will copy it by reverse engineering it
[07:17:59] <zeeshan> yea it makes it harder
[07:17:59] <renesis> like, if your kevtris that makes sense
[07:18:01] <zeeshan> but if you're real;ly determined
[07:18:08] <renesis> if youre rolling standard circuits, its just weird
[07:18:22] <renesis> its a china thing, its how they hide sketchy sourcing
[07:18:33] <zeeshan> well you saw a couple of the chips
[07:18:35] <zeeshan> they said ST
[07:18:36] <zeeshan> on em
[07:18:43] <renesis> and typically you dont look to deep into the contract manufacturers sourcing
[07:18:44] <zeeshan> maybe theyre fucking knockoff chips
[07:18:55] <renesis> because youll find endless problems and never ever ship
[07:19:05] <renesis> are these made in asia?
[07:19:19] <zeeshan> nah
[07:19:24] <zeeshan> "proudly made in usa"
[07:19:28] <zeeshan> infact they made a comment about why they hide their chips
[07:19:32] <zeeshan> they dont want others to copy.
[07:19:35] <zeeshan> sounds like a whole lot of dog shit
[07:20:00] <zeeshan> what is a "shunt resistor"
[07:20:09] <renesis> parallel resistor
[07:20:12] <Jymmm> big ass resistor
[07:20:17] <renesis> its a very generic term
[07:20:28] <renesis> usually it would be big, yeah
[07:20:29] <zeeshan> it says
[07:20:31] <bobo_> My harley is made in USA
[07:20:32] <zeeshan> "internal shunt regulator"
[07:20:38] <zeeshan> and "internal shunt resistor"
[07:20:42] <toastydeath> a shunt is used as a current measurement point
[07:20:43] <zeeshan> is that some protection shit?
[07:20:47] <renesis> ?
[07:20:59] <toastydeath> it's a very low resistance and very high current
[07:21:04] <Jymmm> a current shunt or a shunt resistor?
[07:21:06] <renesis> shunt regulator just sounds like crazy cheap regulator
[07:21:07] <toastydeath> low, but known fairly accurately
[07:21:11] <toastydeath> *known
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[07:21:17] <Jymmm> echnically the same thing, but used differently
[07:21:19] <toastydeath> so you measure the voltage drop across the shunt and you can tell the current
[07:21:32] <toastydeath> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunt_%28electrical%29
[07:21:42] <Jymmm> Very low resistance high wattage = current shynt resistor
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[07:22:06] <Jymmm> Like .1 or .01 or .05 ohms
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[07:22:08] <zeeshan> okay so it just means you can measure current
[07:22:10] <zeeshan> on the drive
[07:22:17] <zeeshan> through some accessory pin
[07:22:59] <renesis> yeah so in this case its a shunt in parallel with current measurement circuits
[07:23:05] <zeeshan> i dont see any ratings
[07:23:08] <zeeshan> about "in rush current"
[07:23:23] <renesis> its not something you typically advertise
[07:23:24] <toastydeath> it's probably "a fuckin' lot"
[07:25:04] <renesis> like, ive seen straight parallel zener regulators called shunt regulators
[07:25:18] <toastydeath> for surge?
[07:25:31] <renesis> the zener 'shunts' extra current away from the load
[07:25:32] <toastydeath> cuz they'll break down and let shit through
[07:25:42] <renesis> no for normal regulation
[07:25:46] <toastydeath> oh
[07:25:58] <renesis> but i think they prob mean current regulation based on feedback from a shunt resistor
[07:26:49] <renesis> shunt just means parallel resistor, like 'put a shunt resistor' is often used to say load down a power supply or amp circuit
[07:28:12] <zeeshan> so its definitely not my wiring
[07:28:18] <zeeshan> it would have a short circuit fault too
[07:28:31] <zeeshan> maybe it was just 2 bad drives :(
[07:28:43] <zeeshan> w/ bad caps
[07:28:49] <bobo_> your wiring is TOO good
[07:28:59] <renesis> yeah that might be the case
[07:29:07] <zeeshan> so when caps blow
[07:29:11] <zeeshan> trhey can take out other shit with them?
[07:29:14] <renesis> low z, you turn it on at the peak of the mains voltage wave
[07:29:15] <zeeshan> wouldnt they act like a fuse
[07:29:17] <renesis> and boom
[07:30:35] <renesis> ask the manufacturer about inrush limiting if theyre talking
[07:31:17] <bobo_> you went to some effort to get large wre size for drives AC input plugs
[07:31:38] <zeeshan> haha you remember that?
[07:31:43] <renesis> they might have always tested with cheap 16awg IEC cables
[07:31:45] <zeeshan> these guys were using the stupid connector
[07:32:00] <zeeshan> im using 14 awg
[07:32:30] <renesis> man i cant think i dont know if im going to be able to do homework
[07:32:38] <zeeshan> go to sleep man
[07:32:38] <renesis> this has actually been a good distraction
[07:32:42] <zeeshan> dont stay up
[07:32:44] <renesis> i dont think ill be able to
[07:32:50] <zeeshan> what hw do you have
[07:32:57] <renesis> i dont know if i said i just found out a mentor type person died
[07:33:08] <renesis> chem stuff not a big deal
[07:33:09] <zeeshan> :\
[07:33:11] <zeeshan> old?
[07:33:19] <renesis> due tomorrow night i think
[07:33:31] <renesis> yeah but not super old, maybe 50s
[07:33:36] <zeeshan> damn
[07:34:03] <renesis> 60 max, hes had heart issues as long as ive known him, like 7 years ago we met
[07:34:19] <zeeshan> heart attacks?
[07:34:28] <renesis> acoustic engineer for loudspeakers, they tend to live fast
[07:34:33] <renesis> yeah had a pacemaker
[07:34:53] <zeeshan> 60 is still too young to die in this day and age
[07:35:00] <renesis> he got laid off from a place i did later, and he went on surfing vacations
[07:35:03] <zeeshan> people live to like 70s-80s
[07:35:39] <renesis> big into dirtbiking, did track days with a vette, lots of semi auto rifles, did competitive pistol shooting
[07:36:02] <renesis> he was a big guy and didnt want to deal with that
[07:36:14] <renesis> which is something i need to watch out for
[07:36:25] <zeeshan> work out
[07:36:28] <zeeshan> school makes you fat!
[07:36:32] <renesis> yeah i should
[07:36:35] <renesis> school gym is nice
[07:36:40] <zeeshan> dude my buddy
[07:36:43] <zeeshan> that ive known forever
[07:36:49] <zeeshan> he was a mechanic and started doing engineering at 28
[07:36:57] <zeeshan> he gained over 80 lb
[07:37:00] <zeeshan> in first 2 years of eng
[07:37:00] <zeeshan> lol
[07:37:14] <zeeshan> for me , i stayed the same weight
[07:37:17] <zeeshan> but lost hair!
[07:37:27] <renesis> yeah im a pc potatoe already so i dont think its an issue
[07:37:28] <zeeshan> luckily its just thin now :p
[07:37:50] <renesis> like, 10 hour PCB editor sessions was pretty standard for me even 8 years ago
[07:38:14] <zeeshan> i kinda wish i had more idea about electronics after this stuff :P
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[07:38:19] <renesis> my hairlines is maybe 1/4" back from where it was 5 years ago
[07:38:31] <renesis> it takes like 3 or 4 years
[07:38:43] <renesis> because you can kind of see electronics in an intuitive way
[07:38:51] <renesis> thats pretty consistent for the people in #electronics
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[07:39:06] <renesis> a lot of those guys started as kids
[07:39:12] <zeeshan> we just did basic r-c-l circuits
[07:39:16] <zeeshan> and some 3 phase
[07:39:19] <zeeshan> but im mech eng
[07:39:23] <zeeshan> so we never did stuff like op amps
[07:39:28] <renesis> the basics are everything
[07:39:39] <zeeshan> or digital circuits or transistors
[07:39:49] <zeeshan> never even came close to power supplies either
[07:39:55] <renesis> like, you can opamp without understanding basics, but you wont be able to troubleshoot it if shit goes wrong
[07:40:13] <renesis> power electronics are a beast
[07:40:21] <zeeshan> i have this radio shack book
[07:40:25] <zeeshan> "how to build a power supply"
[07:40:29] <zeeshan> its really not too noob friendly
[07:40:34] <renesis> but its easy to grasp, RF is as crazy but very abstract
[07:40:38] <zeeshan> i follow the part about a linear supply w/ a basic transformer
[07:40:44] <zeeshan> cap and i believe a resistor
[07:40:48] <zeeshan> and bridge recitifer
[07:40:53] <zeeshan> asap they get into smps
[07:40:54] <zeeshan> i get lost
[07:40:55] <renesis> diode bridge, caps, done
[07:41:11] <renesis> you need to understand linear voltage regulators first
[07:41:23] <toastydeath> Art of Electonics
[07:41:27] <toastydeath> go big or go homeeeee
[07:41:27] <CaptHindsight> a rectified oscillator
[07:41:31] <renesis> and have intuitive understanding of how caps and inductors work
[07:41:36] <renesis> but for an ME thats easy
[07:41:43] <renesis> inductor is a turbine
[07:41:44] <zeeshan> i get caps and inductors
[07:41:49] <renesis> its inductance value is the turbines mass
[07:41:51] <Jymmm> I gotta say, I'm impressed with the sheer light output of this 20W LED module
[07:41:58] <renesis> caps are membranes or pistons
[07:42:19] <renesis> their capacitance is how much the can stretch or how far the piston can move
[07:42:32] <CaptHindsight> the swicthmode supplies just rectify modulation
[07:42:43] <renesis> well, their voltage really, the rigidity of the membrane or mass of the piston is related to capacitance
[07:42:52] <zeeshan> i think what confuses me is when you look at say a meanwell 24vdc supply
[07:42:55] <zeeshan> its got so much shit in it
[07:43:00] <zeeshan> on paper it looks simple
[07:43:02] <renesis> jymmm: yeah above like 3W theyre pretty nuts
[07:43:03] <zeeshan> but in practical psu
[07:43:05] <zeeshan> its crazy
[07:43:15] <renesis> 20W has got to be insane
[07:43:18] <toastydeath> better to look at the block diagram
[07:43:31] <toastydeath> because a lot of that shit is additional filtering/regulation and safety
[07:43:36] <renesis> see to me a mean well supply is stripped out
[07:43:44] <renesis> they take exactly what they need
[07:43:58] <renesis> and theres a lot of unpopulated parts\
[07:44:05] <renesis> theyre very good supplies
[07:44:09] <Jymmm> renesis: It is, but not in the way you think it would be. It "floods" so well it's impressive how much is actualy lit up
[07:44:37] <zeeshan> http://www.synchronics.co.in/Media/Images/2697.jpg
[07:44:39] <zeeshan> like that
[07:44:43] <zeeshan> so much stuff in it
[07:44:51] <renesis> yeah i had an array of maybe 10 5W LEDs on an aluminum U channel
[07:44:52] <toastydeath> that's not a ton of stuff?
[07:44:55] <Jymmm> renesis: This 1/2 by 7" long module lit up a solid dark patio that's 12 x 24 ft
[07:44:58] <zeeshan> its a ton of stuff to me!
[07:45:00] <renesis> no lenses, shit lit up the entire fuckin room
[07:45:07] <renesis> like bounced off the cieling and lit behind it
[07:45:15] <Jymmm> no roof
[07:45:24] <renesis> ha cool
[07:45:30] <Jymmm> no bouncing off walls
[07:45:35] <Jymmm> no lenses
[07:45:35] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: yeah it's too late for you buddy, you missed all the secret handshakes
[07:45:42] <zeeshan> lol
[07:45:43] <renesis> zeeshan: yeah at first, but when you start seeing subcircuits as units, things get much simpler
[07:45:52] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you need to figure out what the block structure is
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[07:45:59] <renesis> yup
[07:45:59] <zeeshan> the only thing i can recognize
[07:46:03] <zeeshan> is the capacitor bank
[07:46:03] <toastydeath> start at the inputs and outputs
[07:46:06] <zeeshan> and bridge recitifer
[07:46:07] <renesis> thats what learning to see electronics is about
[07:46:07] <zeeshan> thats IT!
[07:46:12] <Jymmm> renesis: no mounting holes either =) http://www.dxsoul.com/product/diy-20w-6500k-2100lm-white-light-cob-led-module-12-14v-170-x-15mm-901199875
[07:46:15] <renesis> reducing schematics to functional blocks
[07:46:19] <zeeshan> i dont know wh tehre are 4 inductors inthere
[07:46:25] <CaptHindsight> IT is pretty much magic after that
[07:46:25] <zeeshan> and why one is a fancy toriod
[07:46:26] <renesis> wow cheap
[07:46:35] <toastydeath> zeeshan, possibly switchmode power supply
[07:46:36] <Jymmm> renesis: and not very hot either
[07:46:44] <renesis> jymmm: how you mounting?
[07:46:50] <Jymmm> renesis: SUPER thin, less than 1/8"
[07:46:52] <renesis> this was the thermal adhesive application?
[07:46:54] <zeeshan> at the very right i see a voltage regulaktor
[07:47:02] <Jymmm> renesis: silicone to aluminim plate
[07:47:09] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you're looking at it at the wrong level
[07:47:14] <renesis> hardcore
[07:47:46] <toastydeath> look for things like continuity, to figure out what's a cap and what isn't, and start to draw a schematic
[07:48:08] <renesis> zeeshan: im getting errors on the link you posted
[07:48:22] <toastydeath> almost all the caps are probably filtering various things
[07:48:29] <Jymmm> renesis: If you get two of these 10W, then you can have a LOW/HI, front/back setup http://www.dxsoul.com/product/diy-10w-6000k-1050lm-white-light-cob-led-module-12-14v-901199871
[07:48:38] <zeeshan> emi filter -> active inrush current limiting -> auto switch || rectifier & filter -> power switch -> OLP , PWM control
[07:48:40] <zeeshan> interesting
[07:48:42] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: the curly thing that looks like a spring is probably an inductor
[07:48:43] <zeeshan> all that stuff is on the AC side.
[07:49:38] <toastydeath> what do you mean by "the ac side"
[07:49:51] <zeeshan> the hv side
[07:49:54] <zeeshan> before step down transformer
[07:49:57] <Jymmm> renesis: Or even space them out to cover a longer area.
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[07:50:18] <bobo_> active inrush current limiting -------do it !
[07:50:46] <toastydeath> NO!
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[07:51:05] <renesis> zeeshan: it has pwm on the ac side before a transformer?
[07:51:05] <toastydeath> zeeshan, is it really a stepdown transformer or is it the filter for the pwm
[07:51:13] <Deejay> moin
[07:51:17] <renesis> yeah how many pins
[07:51:53] <renesis> thats not what blew up, but its maybe what caused the voltage regulator on the secondary side to blow up
[07:51:53] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: the --| |-- is most likely a condenser (or capacitor if you're not an auto mechanic)
[07:51:55] <zeeshan> that i dont know lol
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[07:52:09] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: || OR!
[07:52:13] <toastydeath> look on the underside of the pcb and try to figure out how many points it connects to on the board
[07:52:36] <zeeshan> f electronics
[07:52:40] * zeeshan runs away
[07:52:46] <renesis> <3 electronics
[07:52:52] <CaptHindsight> WWWWWW is a resistor
[07:52:53] <toastydeath> i really like electronics repair so far, but I need to get some more equipment
[07:53:02] <zeeshan> toastydeath: fix these drives
[07:53:03] <zeeshan> :-)
[07:53:05] <renesis> i hate zag resistor symbols
[07:53:06] <toastydeath> I'd try
[07:53:10] <renesis> all about boxes
[07:53:19] <toastydeath> I'm decent so far but i haven't tried anything crazy difficult
[07:53:22] <toastydeath> i also don't have a scope
[07:53:26] <toastydeath> which is somewhat limiting
[07:53:29] <zeeshan> im gonna replace the caps
[07:53:31] <zeeshan> and power it
[07:53:34] <toastydeath> wat
[07:53:36] <zeeshan> likely blow it up even more
[07:53:40] <zeeshan> then send it to you
[07:53:43] <renesis> the pass transistor is blown
[07:53:50] <renesis> you need to replace it
[07:54:01] <toastydeath> i don't have any of the shit to diagnose a power supply efficiently
[07:54:04] <CaptHindsight> XXXX is a quad flux gate
[07:54:06] <zeeshan> renesis: im referring to second failure
[07:54:14] <zeeshan> are you too?
[07:54:19] <renesis> yeah thats what looked blown
[07:54:19] <toastydeath> so a transistor blew, what's upstream of it
[07:54:30] <toastydeath> is there a voltage regulator?
[07:54:34] <renesis> http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png
[07:54:44] <renesis> the transistor is burnt
[07:54:49] <toastydeath> figure out the continuity around the transistor
[07:54:53] <toastydeath> and see what's connected to it
[07:54:58] <renesis> pcb is toasty, solder reflowed quickly
[07:54:58] <toastydeath> look for something that's gone retarded
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[07:55:24] <CaptHindsight> so Mexico is not the problem?
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[07:55:50] <renesis> oh shit
[07:55:50] <zeeshan> no ideal
[07:55:52] <toastydeath> i'd fucking love an in-circuit lcr meter
[07:55:58] <zeeshan> how i'll figure out what chip that is
[07:55:59] <zeeshan> :P
[07:56:05] <renesis> theres like, a trace thats gone?
[07:56:13] <zeeshan> where?
[07:57:03] <CaptHindsight> why are all the part numbers missing from the tops of the packages?
[07:57:09] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: ask amc
[07:57:25] <zeeshan> ask them why that didnt stop the chinese from copying their design
[07:57:29] <CaptHindsight> talk about anal
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[07:58:15] <CaptHindsight> and thats why I wouldn't worry about China
[07:58:22] <toastydeath> cuz the chinese have electron microscopes and ovens to bake the thing open
[07:58:40] <CaptHindsight> JFC, just make your own design
[07:58:41] <toastydeath> and they know what most devices look like on silicon
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[08:00:05] <renesis> http://imgur.com/MKulEdF
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[08:00:25] <renesis> zeeshan: boxed stuff that shows burnt transistor and overheating
[08:00:31] <renesis> but the really, really weird thing
[08:00:35] <renesis> bottom right box
[08:00:40] <renesis> that trace goes nowhere
[08:00:48] <zeeshan> lol
[08:01:06] <toastydeath> how many layers is the board?
[08:01:12] <zeeshan> looks like front and back side
[08:01:13] <renesis> theres no via!
[08:01:23] <renesis> and it looks like it got hot
[08:01:23] <toastydeath> weird!
[08:01:27] <CaptHindsight> buried or blind vias?
[08:01:37] <renesis> zeeshan: take closer pic?
[08:01:47] <zeeshan> no
[08:01:49] <zeeshan> i am tired now
[08:01:51] <zeeshan> f electronics
[08:01:55] <renesis> it doesnt look sike solder mask was lifted
[08:01:59] <zeeshan> gonna chuck this drive at students tommo
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[08:02:20] <CaptHindsight> don't make me drive to tronto
[08:02:32] <bobo_> bus
[08:02:58] <renesis> that trace is weird
[08:03:14] <renesis> its the same on the other board
[08:03:21] <renesis> maybe its a tiny via
[08:03:37] <renesis> it doesnt look like it
[08:03:39] <renesis> wtf is that
[08:03:47] <CaptHindsight> http://i.imgur.com/wcH5OHg.png this pic?
[08:03:50] <renesis> oh
[08:03:52] <renesis> its a shield
[08:04:09] <renesis> no the other blown drive
[08:04:11] <toastydeath> oh, the trace in the middle of the thing?
[08:04:21] <renesis> http://i.imgur.com/bg6hTiX.jpg
[08:04:22] <toastydeath> like vertically centered?
[08:04:33] <renesis> yeah its just a shield its connected to the ground plane
[08:04:54] <zeeshan> shield?
[08:05:02] <toastydeath> Shields and guards!
[08:05:12] <zeeshan> so voltage cant jump over?
[08:05:22] <CaptHindsight> the smoke was released
[08:05:26] <renesis> no for RF
[08:05:26] <toastydeath> a shield is a wire connected to the ground plane to reduce capacative coupling
[08:05:33] <zeeshan> ah
[08:05:48] <toastydeath> instead of coupling to the other signal, most of it dumps to ground and goes nowhere
[08:05:50] <renesis> it basically capacitively couples to ground instead
[08:06:02] <zeeshan> just to fucking piss off amc
[08:06:09] <toastydeath> a guard is the opposite, it's sitting at the high voltage.
[08:06:10] <zeeshan> i wanna spend 6 months reverse engineering this
[08:06:11] <renesis> it can also move interference to random parts of the board if its not adequate
[08:06:15] <zeeshan> and releasing the entire schematic online
[08:06:17] <zeeshan> and emailing it to them too
[08:06:21] <zeeshan> bastards
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[08:06:58] <renesis> on the other board it looks like it got hot at the end but its unrelated
[08:07:30] <zeeshan> if i just replace that one cap
[08:07:32] <zeeshan> it'll just blow up again?
[08:07:43] <Jymmm> renesis: http://www.dxsoul.com/product/jrled-3w-300lm-6500k-21-cob-led-white-light-modules-white-beige-5-pcs-dc-10-11v-901357211
[08:07:47] <zeeshan> if i dont replace that black transistor / voltage regulator thing
[08:08:10] <toastydeath> how are we supposed to know, it's likely gonna blow again but who knows
[08:08:20] <toastydeath> until you find out more, there's no way to know
[08:08:23] <renesis> jymmm: wow neat
[08:08:28] <zeeshan> worth a shot then
[08:08:29] <zeeshan> :)
[08:08:31] <zeeshan> nothing to lose
[08:08:32] <renesis> i like the package on those
[08:08:45] <toastydeath> zeeshan, except you could damage more shit
[08:08:46] <Jymmm> renesis: undercabinet or even tool light or workbench
[08:08:52] <zeeshan> toastydeath: yea its scrap to me anyway
[08:08:56] <renesis> zeeshan: it might not doing anything different whan when you plug it in now
[08:09:08] <zeeshan> when i plug it in right now
[08:09:09] <zeeshan> it blows a fuse
[08:09:15] <zeeshan> well actually
[08:09:17] <zeeshan> i dont know that
[08:09:42] <renesis> fixing cap might fix that for a half second until the cap blows again
[08:10:24] <toastydeath> what does it do when you have power on it
[08:10:29] <toastydeath> what's the no load draw
[08:10:37] <toastydeath> do you have a variac with a current meter
[08:10:47] <zeeshan> no
[08:11:04] <zeeshan> <- not electronics savvy
[08:11:05] <zeeshan> :)
[08:12:08] <toastydeath> is the fuse actually blown?
[08:12:14] <zeeshan> not the internal one
[08:12:19] <zeeshan> just my upstream fuse
[08:12:24] <toastydeath> ...what upstream fuse?
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[08:12:44] <zeeshan> -> l2 -> 15A cc fuse -> drive [internal 16A fuse]
[08:13:35] <toastydeath> l2?
[08:13:46] <zeeshan> leg 2
[08:13:48] <zeeshan> of split phase
[08:13:48] <toastydeath> o
[08:13:54] <toastydeath> why is that fuse there
[08:14:10] <toastydeath> is the internal fuse slow blow?
[08:14:13] <zeeshan> yes
[08:14:20] <toastydeath> is your external fuse slow blow?
[08:14:23] <zeeshan> no
[08:14:34] <toastydeath> ...
[08:14:35] <zeeshan> thats why it prolly protected stuff from more damage
[08:14:47] <toastydeath> so you need to get that shizz on a variac and turn it up slow
[08:14:57] <toastydeath> and see what the running condition is
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[08:18:28] <bobo_> he wants to power cycle the AC input
[08:18:47] <zeeshan> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/TCJY336M025R0070/478-9507-1-ND/5001719
[08:18:49] <zeeshan> 2 bucks!
[08:19:07] <zeeshan> theyre only rated for 2000 hrs
[08:19:14] <zeeshan> oh at 85c.
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[08:33:51] <RyanS> does a boring head spec of 50mm mean the max. radius, or diameter of hole?
[08:34:55] <archivist> neither it depends on how you fit the tools
[08:36:47] <RyanS> erm, or i see thats simply diameter of the head
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[08:56:22] <anarchos2> does anyone here sync their tool table with their CAD/CAM table some how?
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[09:01:26] <Tom_itx> anarchos2, i somewhat do that manually
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[09:36:21] <anarchos2> Tom_itx, i might try to whip up a script to do it automagically from solidworks
[09:36:33] <anarchos2> i'd have to see what kind of output SW would give me, though.
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[12:56:25] <_methods> http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v518/n7537/full/nature14144.html
[13:04:20] <unfy> and i've broken two cheap p.o.s. chinese clamps tonight :D
[13:04:43] <unfy> at different times, without putting alot of force on them, while actually tightening them down heh
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[13:32:51] <_methods> chinese clamps?
[13:32:56] <_methods> harbor freight clamps hehe
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[13:47:39] <XXCoder> interesting guy just left
[13:48:28] <XXCoder> _methods: interesting article
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[13:54:45] <_methods> yeah i wonder how easy it isto mass produce
[13:54:54] <_methods> the excerpt said in cold rolled sheet
[13:55:19] <_methods> so i'm assuming that they will be able to integrate it into existing processes
[13:56:07] <_methods> titanium strength sheet metal that is ductile and 1/10 the price of titanium
[13:56:13] <_methods> sign me up
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[14:08:26] <archivist> _methods, just the sort of structure to later suffer from stress corrosion cracking
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[14:27:28] <_methods> well it looks like it has high ductility
[14:27:35] <_methods> but i'm not paying for the pdf lol
[14:27:47] <_methods> so i don't know for sure what it's material characteristics are
[14:29:30] <archivist> if the price was right everyone would be happy to buy
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[14:39:41] <_methods> well its supposedly 1/10 the price of titanium sheet
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[14:40:01] <_methods> so i would imagine it has quite a lot of aeronautical types quite interested
[14:40:46] <archivist> I doubt the rust will interest them
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[14:51:48] <ssi> morn
[14:54:29] <PetefromTn_> http://trekcore.com/gallery/albums/morn/calltoarms_826.jpg
[14:56:07] <CaptHindsight> http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1038%2Fnature14144 lower cost version of the pdf
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[15:32:20] <_methods> CaptHindsight: thx
[15:32:59] <_methods> archivist: i don't know with the nickel and everything else in there
[15:36:26] <furrywolf> how do you get a pdf from that url? all I have is a box saying to install flash player. flash isn't pdf. heh.
[15:37:36] <PetefromTn_> works fine here
[15:38:11] <furrywolf> you get a pdf file?
[15:39:13] <PetefromTn_> no actually it opens some kinda read cube page but there is a download link for the .pdf
[15:39:39] <furrywolf> without flash, the page seems to do nothing.
[15:40:15] <PetefromTn_> I am using Chrome dunno what to tell ya..
[15:40:40] <furrywolf> it tells me you have flash installed, since you're getting a page, not a message telling you to install flash. :P
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[15:44:53] <furrywolf> as far as I can tell, readcube is another scam trying to get money from you.
[15:46:16] <furrywolf> well, if you can save a pdf, want to send me a copy? ;P
[15:46:17] <furrywolf> :P
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[15:48:06] <furrywolf> blah, bbl, time for work.
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[16:20:22] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel2: are there any mil spec laptops with 17"+ screens
[16:20:45] <CaptHindsight> rugged/mil spec getac, toughbook etc
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[16:25:21] <FinboySlick> Do you want the 17" for the size itself or just the resolution? I don't really know of any mil-spec that size but some 15" offer you 1920x1080 in a tough format.
[16:26:14] <CaptHindsight> FinboySlick: size and res
[16:26:42] <CaptHindsight> LCD makers have finally broken the 1080p barrier
[16:27:27] <FinboySlick> Precision are fairly durable considering that they're Dell. I'd typically prefer lenovo, but they're pretty far in the race the bottom too apparently.
[16:27:32] <CaptHindsight> LG 2560×1700 13″ 3:2 WQXGA for instance
[16:28:12] <CaptHindsight> designing and building my own now
[16:28:21] <CaptHindsight> laptops, not displays
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[16:28:48] <FinboySlick> CaptHindsight: Oh, that project with memleaks you mentioned last week?
[16:29:01] <CaptHindsight> yes
[16:29:21] <FinboySlick> I'm not in the market for a laptop but if I were, I'd be pretty interested.
[16:29:37] <CaptHindsight> makes things like this easier
[16:30:37] <CaptHindsight> big displays are like carrying a pizza box or suitcase around
[16:33:32] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: know anything about these boards? I got a coupon and can get this for $9 http://www.frys.com/product/8136085?site=premail020515
[16:34:00] <CaptHindsight> between cnc machining and SLA, laptop enclosures can be made in small runs
[16:34:54] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: don't have that exact board but those are nice
[16:35:17] <CaptHindsight> socket AM1 do the APU's are low cost
[16:35:21] <CaptHindsight> do/so
[16:36:32] <mozmck> I might have to pick up one or more then at that price.
[16:36:49] <CaptHindsight> a bargain
[16:37:05] <mozmck> will those run linuxcnc well?
[16:38:29] <CaptHindsight> yes
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[16:39:25] <CaptHindsight> http://www.frys.com/product/8080894 dual core $35
[16:39:56] <CaptHindsight> the RTAI in the latest live cd is a bit old
[16:40:08] <mozmck> what is the difference between athlon and sempron?
[16:40:36] <CaptHindsight> memleak sorted out the scheduler so it has low latency and smooth accel video at the same time
[16:41:02] <mozmck> nice, I think I'll try and pick one up
[16:41:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.amd.com/en-us/press-releases/Pages/amd-introduces-2014apr9.aspx
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[17:07:40] <Connor> PetefromTn_: What E-Stop switch did you end up getting?
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[17:08:41] <PetefromTn_> that cheapass one everyone is lamenting LOL
[17:09:07] <Connor> Yea, I don't know which one that is or where they're getting it from.
[17:09:17] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/xPJm85t.jpg
[17:09:42] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261623325153?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
[17:11:03] <zeeshan> i have that ateact one
[17:11:03] <zeeshan> lol
[17:11:03] <Connor> this is the one I have. or very similar http://www.ebay.com/itm/22MM-Emergency-Stop-Switch-Red-380V-Max-NO-NC-10A-Contacts-E-stop-Twist-Release-/291280899817?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43d1b1cee9
[17:11:23] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/LOT-CUTLER-HAMMER-EATON-PUSH-BUTTON-KEY-SWITCH-LIGHTS-E22D-E22B1-E-STOP-MORE-/201280099553?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2edd3a94e1
[17:11:24] <zeeshan> get proper ones!
[17:11:37] <PetefromTn_> I'm fine with it heh
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[17:14:52] <CaptHindsight> they look SLA printed http://images.sciencedaily.com/2015/02/150204144517-large.jpg
[17:15:28] <CaptHindsight> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150204144517.htm Smartphone, finger prick, 15 minute diagnosis for HIV and syphilis biomarkers
[17:22:51] <TekniQue> finally a viable alternative to the condom
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[17:25:30] <roycroft> i thought the pocket protector was the best alternative to the condom
[17:26:03] <TekniQue> haha
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[18:13:05] <assanaway> i've recompiled linuxcnc to lastest version but now i get "can't get module 'par_port' in /linuxcnc/rtlib"
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[18:23:58] <Connor> zeeshan: any news on the driver issues ?
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[18:34:38] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan: Maybe try ##electronics - flip of a coin, but maybe worth a try:)
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[18:50:36] <zeeshan> connor nah
[18:50:38] <zeeshan> pretty much lost
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[19:01:14] <Tom_itx> Connor, one of those relays is tied to the pwm signal.
[19:01:45] <Tom_itx> it flips once lcnc is loaded and responds to M3 M4
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[19:23:53] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, do you speak Arduino?
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[20:15:43] <Tom_itx> i try not to but i know avr fairly well
[20:18:00] <Tom_itx> bbl if you need help...
[20:19:56] <jdh> JT: what are you looking for?
[20:20:17] <Tom_itx> i think he probably want's to compile marlin and set up his graphic display
[20:20:21] <Tom_itx> if i were guessin
[20:21:33] <Tom_itx> there's a configuration.h file you will need to look at for some settings...
[20:21:39] <Tom_itx> bak in a couple hrs
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[20:49:01] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I have questions
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[20:49:52] <tjb1> or jthornton
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[20:52:58] <tjb1> JT-Woods: ?
[20:53:08] <JT-Woods> Yep
[20:53:16] <tjb1> You do any sand casting?
[20:53:36] <tjb1> green sand
[20:53:56] <JT-Woods> Do I need to use win doze to load firmware into the ramps
[20:54:05] <tjb1> you need Arduino IDE
[20:54:14] <JT-Woods> I will do sand casting
[20:54:22] <JT-Woods> Ok
[20:54:24] <tjb1> You never have before though?
[20:54:39] <JT-Woods> No
[20:54:48] <tjb1> Do you have any of the sand?
[20:55:17] <JT-Woods> I think I have the ide from playing with the uno
[20:55:40] <JT-Woods> 100 mesh sand and bentonite
[20:55:57] <JT-Woods> And a muller
[20:56:20] <tjb1> Trying to find a solution to keep the silver solder from getting in the order hole in the carbide bushing
[20:56:39] <tjb1> oxide paint isnt working very well
[20:57:01] <tjb1> thinking we are going to try packing the carbide with casting sand and then brazing them in
[20:58:00] <CaptHindsight> whats the size of the hole?
[20:58:05] <tjb1> CaptHindsight: varies
[20:58:06] <JT-Woods> You can get two different casting sand
[20:58:21] <tjb1> JT-Woods: I found a source for water bonded and ordered that today
[20:58:30] <JT-Woods> Water based and oil based
[20:58:41] <tjb1> Problem is I don't know if the operator can properly wet it when it dries out
[20:59:06] <JT-Woods> It needs to be mulled after use
[20:59:19] <tjb1> what does the mulling do exactly?
[21:00:00] <JT-Woods> Forces the bentonite to surround the sand particles
[21:00:20] <tjb1> What processes can do that?
[21:00:28] <JT-Woods> Look like a drum with two wheels
[21:00:58] <zeeshan> tjb1: it just mixes the sandf up
[21:01:10] <tjb1> Can it be done by hand?
[21:01:16] <JT-Woods> Or in my case a concrete mixer and a cannon ball
[21:01:18] <tjb1> I mean the max hole size is maybe an inch or so
[21:01:21] <zeeshan> yea
[21:01:24] <zeeshan> but youre arms are gonna kill!
[21:01:24] <tjb1> so not very much sand will be used
[21:01:27] <JT-Woods> Not very well
[21:01:52] <JT-Woods> Just toss it and use fresh
[21:02:05] <tjb1> This is for carbide guide bushings
[21:02:25] <zeeshan> youre casting carbide?
[21:02:28] <tjb1> no
[21:02:34] <tjb1> brazing the carbide into the collet
[21:03:21] <tjb1> zeeshan: trying to find a way to prevent the solder from getting into the hole
[21:03:26] <JT-Woods> Any way to not get flux into the center
[21:03:50] <tjb1> JT-Woods: not really, only around .010 tolerance between carbide and hole
[21:04:05] <JT-Woods> Ok
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[21:04:49] <tjb1> Guess we will try packing with sand
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[21:04:59] <tjb1> Might be cheaper than the oxide paint they use
[21:05:06] <tjb1> so maybe it will be consumable
[21:05:15] <JT-Woods> Yea
[21:05:45] <tjb1> next issue is finding a way to center the carbide
[21:06:58] <JT-Woods> I'd need a picture to visualize that
[21:08:07] <tjb1> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wpHEUEGnL._SX342_.jpg
[21:08:10] <tjb1> probably not big enough
[21:08:31] <tjb1> carbide is sometimes getting pushed off to side of hole
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[21:09:03] <tjb1> solution is much harder due to the fact that the through hole has been measured to have .009" runout on the last few samples
[21:09:06] <toast-work> tjb1: is the hole already in the carbide?
[21:09:09] <tjb1> yes
[21:09:19] <toast-work> what's the tolerance on the diameter
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[21:09:31] <toast-work> (of that center hole)
[21:09:32] <JT-Woods> Arg can't dl photo not enough signal
[21:09:34] <tjb1> Supposed to be .002 but I dont think the supplier is holding it
[21:09:54] <tjb1> oh the center hole? we grind that after brazing
[21:10:10] <toast-work> what I suggest is turning a carbon rod into a very gradual taper (like .010 over 5-6 inches)
[21:10:12] <toast-work> and plug the hole
[21:10:28] <toast-work> the brazing won't stick to the carbon and you can just pull it out
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[21:11:02] <tjb1> Ill check on that tomorrow
[21:11:11] <tjb1> I think we have around 40 different carbide inserts though
[21:11:23] <toast-work> that's generally how repair shops operate when they have to braze things like gears
[21:11:30] <toast-work> they use a lot of carbon shims/etc
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[21:12:09] <tjb1> thanks toast-work, that's a good one
[21:12:23] <toast-work> no probs
[21:12:42] <tjb1> we already work with carbon for the EDMs
[21:13:01] <tjb1> well graphite
[21:13:04] <toast-work> same thing
[21:13:11] <toast-work> (close enough for this, anyway)
[21:13:17] <witnit_> jb1 do you guys cut form tools hss?
[21:13:19] <tjb1> I think they mentioned for the smaller ones they were putting pencil lead in them and it wasnt working
[21:13:30] <toast-work> pencil lead is heavily clayed
[21:13:34] <tjb1> witnit_: ??
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[21:13:44] <toast-work> also if you can, tap the graphite out while the thing is still hot
[21:13:45] <witnit_> with edm, to you cut sutom forming tools
[21:13:48] <witnit_> custom
[21:13:54] <tjb1> witnit_: I dont know, I dont deal with any of that
[21:13:57] <toast-work> otherwise you're going to shrink fit to the graphite
[21:14:14] <tjb1> toast-work: I know they brought a few in today that had .018 holes in the carbide
[21:14:25] <tjb1> but those holes are finished on the EDM so it doesnt matter
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[21:15:00] <JT-Woods> Gotta go battery running low ttyl
[21:15:28] <tjb1> cya JT-Woods
[21:15:33] <witnit_> gwon need a crank charger :)
[21:16:16] <tjb1> toast-work: they braze them with a tocco
[21:16:28] <toast-work> don't know what a tocco is
[21:16:30] <toast-work> sry
[21:16:58] <tjb1> coil generates magnetic field around it
[21:17:25] <witnit_> induction brazing?
[21:17:32] <tjb1> yes
[21:18:24] <tjb1> I'll have to find out what the smallest hole we grind is and look into the carbon rods
[21:22:04] <tjb1> toast-work: the graphite on mcmaster says the max temperature is 800F
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[21:25:50] <toast-work> look for carbon, but I don't know what they mean by "max" here
[21:26:02] <toast-work> graphite will handle temps way over 800F
[21:26:12] <toast-work> i'm not sure if they've got some weird mucked up graphite?
[21:26:26] <toast-work> personally I'd buy it and give it a shot anyway because i don't trust that rating
[21:28:08] <CaptHindsight> will the carbon burn?
[21:28:28] <CaptHindsight> I wonder if they use a binder and thats why it has the temp rating
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[21:29:17] <toast-work> carbon "burns", yes
[21:29:23] <toast-work> it erodes in high temp over time
[21:29:25] <toast-work> (co2)
[21:29:43] <toast-work> but you usually see that in direct-arc type situations
[21:29:56] <CaptHindsight> in the plasma
[21:30:27] <toast-work> not necessarily, just on the hot end of it
[21:30:30] <toast-work> not because of the plasma
[21:31:01] <toast-work> few other situations wind up with really hot blocks of carbon in contact with oxygen and not much else
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[21:32:22] <tjb1> Getting tired of ordering carbide centers
[21:32:34] <tjb1> Need the dummies to stop smacking them and cracking them
[21:32:55] <toast-work> hahaha
[21:33:02] <toast-work> why carbide centers?
[21:33:22] <tjb1> grinding hard collets
[21:33:27] <tjb1> all dead
[21:33:48] <toast-work> ah
[21:34:19] <tjb1> my boss is real happy he has to order another $1k in centers because the other manager ordered the wrong ones
[21:35:15] <Jymmm> sarcasium?
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[21:35:19] <tjb1> yes
[21:35:27] <tjb1> I assume they are going to have a nice talk
[21:35:34] <Jymmm> cant return the other ones?
[21:35:42] <tjb1> since I handle all the shop fixturing/tooling so he should have went through me
[21:35:45] <tjb1> no, they are custom
[21:35:54] <Jymmm> Lovely
[21:36:10] <Jymmm> sell em on ebay
[21:36:16] <tjb1> too big for that Jymmm
[21:36:25] <Jymmm> cragislist?
[21:36:30] <tjb1> the company is too big
[21:36:35] <tjb1> they dont do stuff like that
[21:36:54] <Jymmm> Eh, take the profits and throw a company party
[21:37:01] <tjb1> probably end up sending them somewhere in the shop where they might be used and ordering the other ones anyway
[21:38:12] <tjb1> was brought up today that they should maybe stop grinding the tailstocks to the point where we can no longer use standard centers and just rebuild the tailstock instead
[21:39:01] <witnit_> if they can be reworked for a similar job, your supplier might be happy to take them back
[21:39:28] <tjb1> witnit_: I doubt it, I have enough trouble getting quotes from them
[21:39:29] <witnit_> just not at much value of course
[21:39:41] <toast-work> tjb1: are you looking for the positional accuracy of the center, or rotational accuracy
[21:39:56] <witnit_> do you have the power to change suppliers?
[21:39:59] <tjb1> toast-work: rotation
[21:40:05] <tjb1> witnit_: not many that do custom carbide centers
[21:40:08] <tjb1> I only know of Riten
[21:40:08] <toast-work> so this may sound again like an oddball suggestion
[21:40:18] <tjb1> toast-work: make a sleeve?
[21:40:28] <toast-work> i used to work in a shop that made air bearings
[21:40:36] <toast-work> and they're stupid easy to make, especially oriface-type bearings for spindles
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[21:41:19] <toast-work> I'd make a MT5 (or whatever) taper air bearing, and put a thrust bearing on the back end of it - that would give me rotational accuracy much better than .00001, and i could tension it with a washer sitting on the thrust bearing off the back
[21:41:55] <toast-work> lap the two together for a bit, turn the air on.
[21:42:03] <tjb1> taper has air cushion between center and sleeve?
[21:42:19] <witnit_> tjbi whats the largest diameter on those
[21:42:26] <tjb1> witnit_: on what?
[21:42:27] <toast-work> tjb1: yep
[21:42:28] <witnit_> hahaha i get your name wrong everytime
[21:42:30] <toast-work> except it's not a cushion
[21:42:37] <witnit_> just the centers
[21:42:43] <toast-work> in most cases it's quite a deal more rigid than the equivalent ball bearings
[21:42:51] <tjb1> toast-work: that wont fly, too many machines
[21:42:52] <toast-work> esp when you add preload
[21:42:53] <furrywolf> today is a good day to not go outside. $#@ing rain.
[21:43:02] <toast-work> ah
[21:43:15] <tjb1> toast-work: does grinding grit affect it?
[21:43:21] <toast-work> negative, they're non-contact
[21:43:25] <tjb1> many of these run dry
[21:43:34] <toast-work> surface finish is much better, and rotational accuracy is much better
[21:44:32] <toast-work> like, rotational accuracy in the millionths of an inch
[21:44:55] <toast-work> an operator touching the bearing affects the bearing more than any error in the bearing itself
[21:45:56] <furrywolf> that's true of cars too. a very large portion of the bad bearings I've seen has been becuase someone touched them. lolk
[21:46:13] <toast-work> (from the heat deforming it)
[21:46:35] <toast-work> but the constant inflow of air means grit/abrasives stay out
[21:46:35] * furrywolf has a very, very low opinion of your average mechanic.
[21:46:50] <toast-work> and you can regrind a soft steel center right on the machine
[21:46:55] <toast-work> and it won't affect anything
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[21:47:12] <tjb1> toast-work: how do you grind the center if that applies a side load?
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[21:47:17] <toast-work> ?
[21:47:44] <tjb1> Guess I dont really understand how the air is used in the center
[21:47:46] <toast-work> let me mspaint something real fast
[21:49:08] <witnit_> this should be good
[21:49:09] <witnit_> :)
[21:49:32] <furrywolf> yay, several flood watches issued today.
[21:49:59] <tjb1> furrywolf: You could come here, its 13F...no worry of rain
[21:50:16] <furrywolf> we're supposed to get 8-12" of rain by tomorrow night.
[21:50:21] <CaptHindsight> http://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-poem-that-passed-the-turing-test I for one welcome our new poetry writing overlords.
[21:51:15] <tjb1> furrywolf: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9zc7qb37mgs9sv6/2015-02-02%2015.43.45.jpg?dl=0
[21:53:04] <furrywolf> yes. one inch of rain is 13 inches of snow. we're getting water equivalent to 9-13ft of snow.
[21:53:56] <toast-work> so i can't really draw well enough
[21:54:03] <furrywolf> also, that looks like pretty thin snow, and plowed. :P
[21:54:26] <toast-work> tjb1: the air is a fluid film that provides a bearing
[21:54:31] <toast-work> like a hovercraft
[21:54:36] <toast-work> so the spindle floats in the taper
[21:55:02] <furrywolf> http://fw.bushytails.net/jeepsnow02.jpg last time I did any driving in real snow... that's heading back over my own tire tracks.
[21:55:06] <Jymmm> CaptHindsight: Just goes to show that people just don't have taste, and any amount of poo can indeed smell like a rose.
[21:55:11] <toast-work> however, with high pressure air and preload (something pulling the center into the spindle taper), the gap between the center and the spindle is very, very small
[21:55:15] <toast-work> and it takes a huge amount of force to move
[21:55:45] <toast-work> think of a balloon; the walls of the balloon are being pushed away by air
[21:56:03] <toast-work> if you pop a hole in the side of the balloon, the air starts to go out and it deflates
[21:56:06] <Jymmm> nitrogen
[21:56:24] <toast-work> but if you inject air back into the balloon at the same speed (or faster) as it escapes, the balloon remains inflated even though it's leaking air
[21:56:25] <Jymmm> I refer inny-outty
[21:56:51] <Jymmm> Beans Beans the musical fruit, the more you eat, the more you toot!
[21:57:24] <toast-work> so what's happening is you're injecting air into this gap between the spindle and center, and it's applying whatever pressure it's at on the walls
[21:57:46] <furrywolf> I think that's a sad comment on poetry and art, rather than a positive comment on artificial intelligence... that most poetry is so bad that no one would notice if it were written by a machine.
[21:58:08] <Jymmm> Like a mudder in law
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[21:59:34] <Jymmm> toast-work: I'ma assuming you are taking about spindle that "floats" on air?
[21:59:55] <toast-work> Jymmm: standard oriface air bearing
[22:00:01] <Jymmm> toast-work: ah
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[22:00:38] <Jymmm> toast-work: I wonder if floating magnetic is practical for bearings
[22:00:40] <toast-work> except the spindle in this case would be a center, floating in a stator that was MT5 or whatever
[22:01:05] <toast-work> with tension provided by a rear thrust air bearing with a bolt going through it into the center
[22:01:17] <furrywolf> I would think that for high rigidity, you'd want to use oil instead of air, or you'd need pretty high pressure air.
[22:01:35] <toast-work> nope
[22:01:38] <toast-work> oil gaps have to be very large
[22:02:10] <toast-work> and the design of the oriface and pad is much more involved (there's passive feedback hydraulic circuits in an oil bearing that's fully static)
[22:02:16] <Jymmm> I wonder if different inert gasses would have dirrct efects
[22:02:18] <furrywolf> perhaps, but oil gets dragged along with rotating parts and is hard to squish out, while air squishes out really easily.
[22:02:37] <toast-work> air also gets dragged along, and works just as well in that regard
[22:02:55] <furrywolf> usually I think of air bearings for low force applications (like overpriced hifi turntables), or things with really high rpm, where the air doesn't squish out as relatively quickly.
[22:02:56] <toast-work> the advantage to oil is higher pressure and thus more load bearing before ground out; the bearing overall is less accurate and less stable
[22:03:17] <toast-work> on any decent size bearing air works just fine
[22:03:29] <toast-work> way more accurate, less complicated bearing design, more rigid
[22:03:55] <toast-work> the only downside is the ground out force is lower, but if you're injecting 120 psi air into the pad, that's plenty of force for most applications
[22:04:44] <furrywolf> even if you have a dozen square inches of surface area, and precisely drilled orifices off an abundant air supply, you're still taking a thousand pounds of force before it mashes into the side and chews itself to bits... and while that may sound like a big number, it's probably not in machining terms, especially if something goes wrong.
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[22:05:33] <toast-work> it's actually plenty in most machining cases?
[22:05:59] <toast-work> I used to work for a company that made air bearings, so I am at least semi-familiar with what they can and can't do
[22:06:36] <tjb1> thanks for the ideas toast-work, going to go play with printer now
[22:06:37] <furrywolf> heh. I think they have their uses, but I don't expect to see them in your average machine shop any time soon.
[22:06:59] <toast-work> don't expect to see oil bearings either, for all the same reasons
[22:09:27] <furrywolf> I use oil bearings to get to and from my machine shop, does that count? :)
[22:10:00] <toast-work> nope
[22:10:51] <toast-work> the oil bearing in your car has absolutely nothing in common with the oil bearing you'd find in a big machine tool
[22:11:10] <furrywolf> if you ever need proof that fluid bearings work, just consider that car engines are swinging around pistons with thousands of pounds of force exploding against them, with nothing but a thin film of oil holding it apart.
[22:11:12] <CaptHindsight> I use air bearings all the time in printers. There's no contact like with cutting tools but we whip axes around at a few G's
[22:11:30] <toast-work> where did you get the idea i said fluid bearings don't work?
[22:12:04] <furrywolf> "if you ever need", not "you need now" :P
[22:12:06] <toast-work> CaptHindsight: we remade these giant bearings for a paper mill
[22:12:27] <toast-work> like 10" in diameter, 18" long or so
[22:12:32] <CaptHindsight> toast-work: did they make paper or mill it? :)
[22:12:35] <toast-work> no idea
[22:12:40] <furrywolf> lol
[22:12:48] <toast-work> making paper, I believe? they were for rolls?
[22:12:58] <toast-work> for calendaring the paper
[22:13:45] <CaptHindsight> I once updated a big paper slitter that held several ton rolls
[22:14:35] <CaptHindsight> forgot how many RPM it would spin 4-5' diameter rolls
[22:14:45] <CaptHindsight> but that thing would really move
[22:16:05] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:16:17] <furrywolf> big paper machines are impressive... many many years of fine-tuning designs to make them work well.
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[22:17:09] <furrywolf> unfortunately, they closed down the local pulp mill, which was the closest thing we had to any of that. heh.
[22:17:54] <furrywolf> the owners simply abandonned it, and now the county and epa are having to dismantle, clean up, and scrap everything.
[22:18:17] <furrywolf> they abandonned it with all the chemicals still on-site, in rusty leaking tanks.
[22:18:54] <furrywolf> the epa got to clean up 3 million gallons of chemicals.
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[22:20:14] <Jymmm> Anything worth having?
[22:20:23] <Jymmm> Halon? 111?
[22:20:26] <cradek> yeah, the epa
[22:20:37] <Jymmm> MEK?
[22:20:43] <furrywolf> probably not.
[22:20:50] <Jymmm> bummer.
[22:21:38] <Jymmm> I'm saving my 111 for a special occasion
[22:21:55] <furrywolf> they found another pulp mill two states away that would take the chemicals free if they were trucked up there... so we trucked 3 million gallons of chemicals from california to washington.
[22:23:03] <Jymmm> tanker or trailer?
[22:23:36] <furrywolf> trucked.
[22:23:43] <Jymmm> ah
[22:23:50] <furrywolf> ... tanker trailers. :P
[22:24:04] <Jymmm> box trailer or milk truck basically
[22:24:51] <furrywolf> http://lostcoastoutpost.com/media/uploads/post/11185/10155020_10203280214663261_737326788_n.jpg there's the back of one.
[22:24:56] * furrywolf can't find a photo of a whole one
[22:25:19] <Jymmm> OH, so a tanker afterall. YEOW
[22:25:41] <malcom2073_> Haha
[22:25:46] <malcom2073_> that dude is totaly questioning his life decisions
[22:25:46] <Jymmm> 4300 gallon undrground tank... ya know that thing leaked
[22:26:33] <Jymmm> malcom2073_: Shit, I have a P95 respirator, which I had a fully self-contained one
[22:26:39] <Jymmm> wish*
[22:26:55] <furrywolf> they ALL leaked. note the stains down the side in random places.
[22:27:02] <Jymmm> Damn, he duct taped his wrists too
[22:27:25] <furrywolf> the owners abandonned the plant in a state of disrepair, with over three million gallons of chemicals and hazardous waste on-site...
[22:27:42] <Jymmm> then disolussioned the company
[22:27:47] <furrywolf> some of the tanks had the tops cave in and were overflowing as the rainwater ran in....
[22:27:57] <Jymmm> Nice
[22:29:56] <furrywolf> apparantly the plant was poorly inspected, and no one knew how bad its condition was until the owners abandonned it... after it was clear it wasn't re-opening, various agencies started to notice it was a serious hazard, and the epa was called in.
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[22:34:25] <furrywolf> the epa is trying to bill the previous owners some number of millions of dollars for the cleanup project, but as you can guess, it ain't happening. the county is footing a lot of the bill.
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[22:35:38] <furrywolf> the local seafood farm, in the bay next to the pulp mill, loaned the county $1.25m to get the cleanup started, because the tanks were starting to leak right into the bay...
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[22:37:26] <JT-Shop> tjb1, a carbide liner in the collet?
[22:39:35] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, did you get your ardweenie questions figured out?
[22:39:55] <JT-Shop> no, I was out in the woods
[22:40:03] <JT-Shop> well maybe
[22:40:19] <Tom_itx> just download their ide and install it on winblows
[22:40:28] <Tom_itx> they use avrdude to download
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[22:41:39] <JT-Shop> I think I have it down in the beer cave, when playing with the uno
[22:42:10] <Tom_itx> the last one i downloaded was 2.3... no idea what rev they're up to now
[22:42:42] <JT-Shop> I'll just d/l it out here tomorrow
[22:42:46] <Tom_itx> they hide the .hex file once you compile it though
[22:43:12] <Tom_itx> it's in some obscure user directory iirc
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[22:43:41] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, do you have the arduino 2560?
[22:43:56] <Tom_itx> probably, since you have the ramps 1.4...
[22:44:30] <Tom_itx> i got one of the 2560 boards but never got the ramps
[22:44:37] <Tom_itx> just to mess with
[22:45:07] <JT-Shop> yea, a 2560
[22:45:08] <furrywolf> heh! did some more reading, apparantly the executives of the company that owned the mill have fled the country, presumably to make sure the epa never gets repaid for the cleanup.
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[22:46:54] <furrywolf> run the mill into the ground, take the money and run. sounds like a plan.
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[22:47:41] <tjb1> JT-Shop: swiss guide bushings
[22:48:07] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[22:49:30] <georgenz> Hey guys... i finally have gotten a servo motor and drive talking to the pc... its hunting really badly, whats the best method to tune?
[22:49:56] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/index.html
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[22:50:48] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop that programmer you got from me some time back should work on that if you need one
[22:51:13] <JT-Shop> tjb1, do I need the taurinopower drivers ?
[22:51:19] <georgenz> Thx...
[22:51:21] <tjb1> JT-Shop: yes
[22:51:27] <JT-Shop> ok
[22:51:29] <tjb1> JT-Shop: http://arduino.cc/en/main/software
[22:51:34] <tjb1> you can get it for linux
[22:52:20] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, can't you use the USB to u/l the program?
[22:52:30] <Tom_itx> you should be able to
[22:52:57] <Tom_itx> tjb1 do they use serial to talk to their bootloader? i can't remember.. it's been too long
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[22:53:07] <Tom_itx> or can you use a regular ISP programmer?
[22:53:55] <Jymmm> http://arduino.cc/en/Tutorial/ArduinoISP
[22:54:01] <JT-Shop> tjb1, it looks easier to use my windoze computer to u/l the program, the linux one needs all sorts of stuff
[22:54:06] <Tom_itx> pretty sure you can just upload since the code comiles to load in regular flash
[22:54:19] <Tom_itx> you just don't want to overwrite their bootloader
[22:54:21] <Jymmm> This allows you to use the board to burn the bootloader onto an AVR
[22:54:29] <Tom_itx> yes
[22:54:45] <Tom_itx> you can also upload the program with ISP too
[22:54:52] <Tom_itx> it just has to load in the right place
[22:55:06] <Jymmm> that's what that link says confirming what you said
[22:55:26] <Tom_itx> yes, you need ISP to upload their bootloader initially
[22:55:49] <JT-Shop> gotta run but I have the IDE up and running on my windoze box
[22:55:54] <Tom_itx> their uno emulated a serial connection
[22:56:00] <JT-Shop> more fun tomorrow
[22:56:09] <Tom_itx> i can dig my board out if need be
[22:56:15] <Tom_itx> it's just collecting dust
[22:57:31] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-Digispark-Kickstarter-ATTINY85-Arduino-General-Micro-USB-Development-Board-/301374892391?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item462b57e967
[22:58:10] <georgenz> Am trying to tune out the oscillating in my servo... i have tried setting P from 0.1 to 100 but just oscillates faster or slower... any suggestions?
[22:58:59] <JT-Shop> your drive may not be tuned
[23:01:16] <georgenz> Ok... ill try read the manual, anyone familiar with teco drives?
[23:01:47] <furrywolf> rtfming is often a good step. :)
[23:02:09] <_methods> pretty sure pete is
[23:02:15] <_methods> i think he's got teco drives
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[23:02:35] <georgenz> Except when the manual is verbose and in comprehendable
[23:03:18] <PCW> do your drives have tachometers?
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[23:03:26] <furrywolf> hrmm... engrish? graduese?
[23:04:33] <georgenz> Engrish
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[23:06:07] <PCW> a velocity mode drive with no working tachometer (or encoder velocity) feedback will be hard to tune
[23:07:39] -!- sumpfralle has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[23:08:03] <furrywolf> hrmm, engrish drive manual... for most happy drive, the connection motor lead must follow complete sequence. to complete begin of rotational harmonizing, initial ampere profit adjustment of potential should be fixed to half position. if motor is ill, fix the ampere profit adjustment to a reduced allocation. if the motor is...
[23:08:42] <georgenz> Haha
[23:09:00] <georgenz> Diagrams dont correlate to plugs etc
[23:09:11] <georgenz> It has an encoder on back
[23:09:24] * furrywolf has had to translate some quite interesting engrish over the years
[23:10:08] <georgenz> I bought it frm machmotion n would have assumed it wss ready to go. It oscillates real bad then trips on motor overload
[23:10:48] <furrywolf> sounds like some gain setting set wrong, but I've never tuned a servo.
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[23:12:08] <furrywolf> and, sadly, those instructions I wrote look way too much like things I've had to read. lol
[23:13:35] <georgenz> Haha
[23:14:01] <witnit_> I went through a very professional approach tuning my servos, I put my hand on the motor and started changing variables one at a time until it "seemed right" hahaha
[23:14:17] <georgenz> I would have thought everything would autotune these days... we r not in the 80s
[23:14:21] <furrywolf> yeah, that's where I'd start too.
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[23:16:37] <PCW> if these are modern TECO drives make sure you set them into velocity mode
[23:16:43] <witnit_> dont let your motors set there and vibrate due to overcorrecting. i can say its not good on them
[23:16:52] <witnit_> on the amps and such anyhow
[23:17:10] <furrywolf> dunno, I could think of a use for some strong vibrations...
[23:17:10] <georgenz> I jst flip them on and off they r set to velocity mode
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[23:17:23] <witnit_> ajahjahjaa youuuuuu
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[23:18:31] <PCW> do you all PID params set to 0 except P?
[23:18:43] <PCW> do you have ^
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[23:19:00] <furrywolf> does it oscillate even if you ground the control input?
[23:20:15] <georgenz> Hold on... i will check
[23:20:53] <PCW> disconnect from source before shorting :-)
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[23:21:23] * furrywolf just wants to check if the oscillations are coming from the software side or the tach loop side
[23:21:51] <PetefromTn_> sorry guys
[23:21:58] <PetefromTn_> I was out in the shop running these parts
[23:22:03] <witnit_> its okay pete we forgive you
[23:22:12] <witnit_> dont we guys
[23:22:20] <witnit_> guys?
[23:22:26] <witnit_> =D
[23:22:39] <PetefromTn_> georgenz you need to open that machine_ calibration tab
[23:22:56] <PetefromTn_> and tell us what you have in there for the axis you are working on presuming X axis..
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[23:23:34] <PetefromTn_> understand that even tho my drives were pre tuned by machmotion they WILL vibrate really bad once linuxCNC enables them if your linuxCNC PID tuning settings are not correct.
[23:23:48] <PetefromTn_> There is a tutorial JT did somewhere that we followed on mine.
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[23:24:26] <PetefromTn_> I would go ahead and assume Machmotion did their job because they told me they do that to alll the drives they sell when packaged as a motor/drive/cables combo like I got and I believe you bought the same thing.
[23:25:39] * furrywolf didn't get enough sleep last night (thanks zee!), and now is unmotivated, and not working on the mill...
[23:26:04] <PetefromTn_> some others on here are better at the tuning work than I am for sure and maybe they can chime in here.
[23:26:10] <witnit_> I think pcw is having him ground the input to see if they are going to oscl8 without linuxcnc interfering
[23:26:25] <witnit_> or any stray noise for that matter
[23:26:48] <furrywolf> no, that was me, and I already said I'm not the most clueful when it comes to tuning. heh.
[23:27:29] <PetefromTn_> well he surely knows better than I do about this so I bow to his prodigious knowledge...I'm not worthy LOL
[23:27:32] <georgenz> When disconnected and grounded, the motor doesnt vibrate much, slowly rotates
[23:27:34] <witnit_> one thing i did was mount a servo to my desk and just play with different tuning, then i attached a load to it and tried again
[23:27:46] <witnit_> you seem to learn alot when there is a load with inertia on it
[23:27:49] <furrywolf> slowly rotates is normal
[23:27:55] <PetefromTn_> he has the servos inside the machine but not hooked to the screws yet.
[23:28:03] <PCW> do you have all PID params set to 0 except P?
[23:28:05] <georgenz> That is the analog input to the drive
[23:28:31] <furrywolf> how slow is slowly? I'd figure a couple rpm tops.
[23:28:32] <PetefromTn_> georgenz in case you are not aware PCW here is Pete from Mesa and knows EVERYTHING basically..
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[23:28:54] <PCW> tuning will be harder with bare motors
[23:28:59] <georgenz> Ok cool
[23:29:10] <PetefromTn_> go ahead and open that calibration tab and tell us what your settings are for the X
[23:29:17] <PCW> Yeah
[23:29:30] <georgenz> I will jst plug back in.. i had had petes pid settings, i will reset all
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[23:29:59] <PCW> creeping slowly is a good sign for velocity mode when enabled but 0 input
[23:30:03] <PetefromTn_> you can start with them but hard to tell if they will be right. There is a specific order of adjustment on themm.
[23:30:22] <PetefromTn_> trying to find that damn page JT made
[23:30:30] <PetefromTn_> or was it cradek..
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[23:31:28] <Jymmm> Servoe Tuning Tutorial http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[23:31:36] <PetefromTn_> thank you jymm
[23:31:42] <Jymmm> Servo Tuning Tutorial http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/tuning/servo.html
[23:31:44] <Jymmm> np
[23:32:43] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: BTW... https://www.google.com/search?q=pid+tuning+linuxcnc
[23:33:05] <georgenz> Ok... all are now 0 except P which is 12
[23:33:44] <georgenz> Thx Jymmm will bookmark
[23:34:23] <Jymmm> =)
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[23:35:07] <PetefromTn_> basically what you want to do as I recall is increase P until you get oscillation and then back off then add a small amount of FF1 until it smooths out basically...
[23:35:17] <PCW> is this an inch or mm machine?
[23:35:29] <georgenz> mm
[23:35:32] <PetefromTn_> understand that you do not need to restart to make changes..
[23:35:44] <PetefromTn_> yeah his machine is metric ON PURPOSE LOL
[23:35:57] <georgenz> I now have P set at 1, oscillation is much reduced
[23:36:17] <georgenz> Well, why would I want to change a good thing??
[23:36:35] <furrywolf> my machine reads inches on x and y, mm on z. yay china.
[23:36:39] <PCW> are there any filter options on the velocity input
[23:37:13] <PetefromTn_> when you say oscillation do you mean just the dithering noise or is it vibratory movement back and forth bad
[23:37:33] <PCW> actually before that is the axis scaling correct?
[23:37:51] <georgenz> Yes the axis scaling is correct
[23:38:26] <PCW> what are encoder counts per turn?
[23:38:27] <georgenz> It was bad... now is good, P is now on , everything else 0
[23:38:45] <georgenz> I think it was not setting everything else to 0 that caused my problems
[23:38:48] <georgenz> 2500
[23:39:35] <PCW> velocity mode drives are tuned mostly with P and FF1
[23:39:54] <PCW> (and a bit of FF2 when close)
[23:40:00] <georgenz> Ok... i have never heard og the FF b4 now
[23:40:48] <PCW> feedback is great but its always late :-)
[23:41:03] <PetefromTn_> read that tuning tutorial you need to jog the motor a bit to see the results of the P adjustment really
[23:41:09] <PetefromTn_> it is more than just making it quiet
[23:41:20] <georgenz> So I have it stable with P of 6, which FF do I play with to reduce motor noise?
[23:41:32] <PCW> FF is not for that
[23:41:35] <PetefromTn_> then keep increasing it until oscillates and back off
[23:42:17] <georgenz> Yeah... starts to oscillate at 7
[23:42:32] <PCW> FF1 is for forwarding the velocity command to the drive
[23:42:38] <PetefromTn_> it doesn't have to be whole numbers either
[23:42:40] <witnit_> you do not have a load on the motors at all?
[23:42:42] <furrywolf> pete: what is your P?
[23:42:53] <PetefromTn_> mine will be completely different now
[23:43:13] <PCW> you should be able to use higher P when you have a load
[23:43:14] <georgenz> Ok
[23:43:18] <witnit_> this process will have to be done all over when you have the load
[23:43:19] <PetefromTn_> he has all the metric numbers I had he has ALL of my config files and everything
[23:43:32] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[23:43:39] <georgenz> That is fine... as long as I get a handle on it now
[23:43:44] <PetefromTn_> the Z is the worst....
[23:43:59] <PetefromTn_> almost terrifying tuning that bastard LOL
[23:44:00] <PCW> you can make the PID numbers the same by scaling properly
[23:44:05] <georgenz> Is the Z pitch the same as xy?
[23:44:32] * furrywolf could use some Zs... thanks to a trying to help someone here way too late at night.
[23:44:40] <witnit_> I printed off the some parts of the chat log and stapled it to my PID tuning manual when I started out. it helped me make sense of what parts were on my amp and what parts were on linuxcnc
[23:44:55] <PetefromTn_> how can you view a freakin' INI file in wordpad without it running on like a bitch.
[23:46:04] * furrywolf wonders what "running on like a bitch" is
[23:46:19] <witnit_> something like "throw like a girl" i bet
[23:46:23] <witnit_> =D
[23:46:34] <PetefromTn_> http://pastebin.com/rsAMMJiC
[23:46:39] <Jymmm> witnit_++
[23:46:44] <PCW> a gain of 6 means that a ~1.6mm position error results in a full scale velocity command
[23:47:11] <PCW> (with analog out scaling of 10)
[23:47:21] <PetefromTn_> thats my old .ini file
[23:47:33] <PetefromTn_> it appears the encoder scaling is the same for all axes...
[23:48:43] <georgenz> Thought so
[23:49:08] <georgenz> So do the motors always make that faint noise when stationary??
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[23:49:43] <PetefromTn_> yeah they kind of make a little noise sort of a light dithering especially the Z axis..
[23:50:20] <georgenz> Or does that noise mean they r not quite rite?
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[23:52:33] <georgenz> Excellent, thanks for the help everyone I'm gonna wire up the other motors now.
[23:53:19] <tjb1> Anyone here good with Marlin?
[23:53:44] <PetefromTn_> sure man good luck
[23:53:55] <PCW> unless you have very high res encoders you will always get noticeable dithering in some circumstances
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[23:55:32] <Nick001-shop> How many line encoder are you calling high res encoders?
[23:55:32] <witnit_> petefromtn_ do you mean this? http://malektips.com/windows-8-wordpad-remove-space-paragraph.html#.VNQClmOaRzA
[23:57:13] <PetefromTn_> I don't think so witnit. basically when I dump an INI or HAL file into wordpad it just makes everything one big block of text and kind of ignores the spacing between the lines that puts it into a vertical column when viewed in linux
[23:57:19] * furrywolf has never used wordpad, but doesn't see how anything can fail at showing a simple text file
[23:57:29] <witnit_> wordwrap?
[23:57:37] <furrywolf> you mean proportional vs fixed width fonts?
[23:57:38] <witnit_> sounds like wordwrap to me
[23:57:45] <furrywolf> and 8-char tabs?
[23:57:47] <PetefromTn_> nope
[23:58:10] <PetefromTn_> tried it with it on and off and it is both wrong but different
[23:58:47] <PetefromTn_> without word wrap it makes the test again one big block but it runs way off to the right and makes the block less tall if that makes any sense..
[23:59:04] <furrywolf> oh! newline conversion.
[23:59:16] <andypugh> That is because Wordpad expect CR/LF and Linux unses CR only. (Or is it LF only?)
[23:59:28] <furrywolf> you're using a defective OS that requires a \r\n to end a line, while every other OS only uses a \n.
[23:59:54] <andypugh> Use notepad++, It’s a lot better than Notepad and understands all types of line endings.