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[00:11:15] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[00:11:23] <zeeshan> someone give me a file host!
[00:11:31] <zeeshan> so i dont have to upload code like this lol
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[00:16:45] <mozmck> zeeshan: I've seen several wiki pages with attachments - maybe you could look and see how they did that?
[00:17:13] <jthornton> you just "upload" the file to the wiki
[00:17:35] <zeeshan> i also have a zip file for another vfd
[00:19:09] <zeeshan> i hate uploading to the internet to a random spot
[00:19:12] <zeeshan> cause links then get broken
[00:20:12] <jthornton> random?
[00:22:58] <zeeshan> random to me is a site that dies off after a couple years :)
[00:24:10] <mozmck> the wiki hasn't died off yet
[00:24:13] <zeeshan> upload:nfx9000rtu.zip
[00:24:19] <zeeshan> sorry i wasnt talking about the wiki
[00:24:22] <mozmck> :)
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[00:24:28] <zeeshan> i didnt realize you could upload directly to it
[00:24:58] <zeeshan> there is no overwrite check though
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[00:33:51] <PCW> I overwrote a check a few times...
[00:38:59] <zeeshan> okay i think this turned out better
[00:39:01] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?VFD_Modbus
[00:39:06] <zeeshan> the upload really helped!
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[00:45:51] <zeeshan> http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7500/16309734886_42a18d9ca9_o.jpg
[00:45:56] <zeeshan> anyone know what kind of fitting this is?
[00:46:04] <zeeshan> it almost looks like a bubble flare from a car's brake lines
[00:46:08] <zeeshan> this is all over my lubricator stuff
[00:46:58] <Tom_itx> looks like a standard compression fitting
[00:47:14] <Tom_itx> or at least one of those should work there
[00:47:35] <Tom_itx> like on your refrigerator water line
[00:47:36] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7471/16335687835_2247afe9d8_k.jpg
[00:47:42] <zeeshan> i thought it was a bubble flare
[00:47:45] <zeeshan> till i saw this thing..
[00:48:06] <Tom_itx> dunno
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[01:02:36] <CaptHindsight> moz
[01:02:56] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: I'll get you the link, it's on the forums
[01:10:19] <CaptHindsight> mozmck:
https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI
[01:11:15] <roycroft> so for you folks with a 7x12 bandsaw, i was talking to a guy in the parts department at grizzly today, finding out when my replacement gear would ship
[01:11:28] <roycroft> (it was waiting at my door when i got home, so the call was premature)
[01:11:44] <roycroft> he told me they've sold twice as many steel replacement gears as they've sold 7x12 saws
[01:11:55] <roycroft> and the purchasers are not repeat customers for that part
[01:12:17] <roycroft> so they are selling them for all the other brands that still ship with the brass gear
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[01:12:52] <roycroft> http://www.roycroft.us/7x12Gear.jpeg
[01:13:04] <roycroft> in case you didn't see before, that's the gear i'm talking about
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[01:20:18] <kengu> what kind of filter you have in your laser cutter exhausts?
[01:20:48] <kengu> tenants complaining the smoke from cutting acrylic
[01:22:07] <LeelooMinai> kengu: Just wait a bit more - the smoke will eventually kill them
[01:22:57] <kengu> yeah but some officials also noted the smoke..
[01:23:10] <kengu> http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?202214-Lasercutter-fume-exhaust-filters-and-cleaning-them
[01:23:25] <kengu> (not my topic)
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[01:42:55] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: thanks. I did see there was a linuxcnc branch in the shabbyx/rtai repository, do you know if that's the same one?
[01:43:12] <mozmck> Looks like the last commit in both places is the same....
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[02:07:54] <CaptHindsight> mozmck: I wouldn't count on the shabbyx/rtai tree
[02:08:06] <mozmck> ok
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[02:08:44] <CaptHindsight> https://github.com/NTULINUX/RTAI use this if you want support or possible answers to questions
[02:11:41] <mozmck> ok, thanks!
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[02:17:32] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_:
[02:17:35] <zeeshan> i was looking for you!
[02:18:25] <PetefromTn_> hehe OK
[02:18:38] <zeeshan> have you used / do you have end mill holders?
[02:18:44] <PetefromTn_> sure
[02:18:55] <zeeshan> ive always used er collets for holding end mills
[02:19:06] <zeeshan> today i found out that anything larger than 1/2" for r32
[02:19:06] <PetefromTn_> I use both
[02:19:12] <zeeshan> er32 is askin for trouble at high feeds
[02:19:16] <zeeshan> in aluminum
[02:19:29] <zeeshan> i've nevver ever used an end mill holder before
[02:19:38] <zeeshan> is the bore precisely reamed for the end mill shank?
[02:19:43] <zeeshan> and you use a set screw to lock it in place?
[02:20:33] <PetefromTn_> yeah generally unless it is shrink to fit
[02:21:30] <zeeshan> http://www.maritool.com/Tool-Holders-CAT40-End-Mill-Holders/c23_25_43/p16434/CAT40-5/8-END-MILL-TOOL-HOLDER-.625-2.5/product_info.html
[02:21:32] <zeeshan> for example this thing
[02:21:46] <zeeshan> i see a set screw on there
[02:22:05] <skunkworks> make sure the mills have flats for the set screws. (or grind them in...)
[02:22:10] <PetefromTn_> yup I have several like that
[02:22:15] <zeeshan> are they accurate?
[02:22:29] <zeeshan> i really thought a collet had more clamping power
[02:22:44] <PetefromTn_> yeah I think so but I have not really gone crazy checking them with a DTI
[02:23:19] <zeeshan> whats the point of er32 tools then?
[02:23:22] <zeeshan> for a cnc?
[02:23:34] <zeeshan> im trying to decide whether to buy a bunch of er32 stuff
[02:23:35] <skunkworks> we have used both - make sure you tighten them hard enough - they will be fine..
[02:23:38] <zeeshan> or just grab end mill holders
[02:23:43] <PetefromTn_> I have never had a problem with them on any of the machines I have run
[02:24:00] <zeeshan> skunkworks: the collets?
[02:24:11] <PetefromTn_> if you REALLY REALLY kill them there is always a possibility of pull out with any collet based holding
[02:24:20] <zeeshan> yea
[02:24:23] <zeeshan> thats what guys are talkin about
[02:24:29] <zeeshan> in aluminum the 2 fluter pulls out
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[02:25:23] <PetefromTn_> I have never really experienced that with my ER32 or ER20 collets...but I don't run the piss out of them either.
[02:25:28] <skunkworks> poppy - they are not tightening them enough.. ER 32
[02:25:28] <skunkworks>
[02:25:28] <skunkworks> slotted
[02:25:28] <skunkworks>
[02:25:28] <skunkworks> 100 ft/lbs
[02:25:49] <skunkworks> thats right - 100ft/lbs...
[02:26:07] <zeeshan> how the heck do you do that with a 9" wrench
[02:26:08] <zeeshan> haha
[02:26:21] <PetefromTn_> put a pipe on the end LOL
[02:26:24] <zeeshan> hahaha
[02:26:50] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/wrenchscale.JPG
[02:27:04] <zeeshan> jeez
[02:27:18] <PetefromTn_> seriously tho even in a goof where I ran the cutter thru too deep a cut I never had one pull out but I am kinda used to tightening the shit out of things...heh
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[02:27:50] <LeelooMinai_> So what is a "pull out"? When the tools goes out of the holder or what?
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[02:28:07] <zeeshan> im thinking of grabbing: 5x er32 holders
[02:28:18] <PetefromTn_> yeah the shape of the cutter wants to pull it down out of the holder....
[02:28:28] <zeeshan> 1/2"(x2) 3/8 5/16 1/4
[02:28:30] <zeeshan> collets
[02:28:38] <zeeshan> and then one end mill holder for 3/4"
[02:28:44] <zeeshan> and a shell mill holder
[02:28:57] <zeeshan> that should get me started i hope
[02:29:07] <skunkworks> zeeshan, nice job getting the machine moving!
[02:29:14] <zeeshan> thanks skunkworks!
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[02:29:42] <PetefromTn_> personally I love the collet holders.. they are so useful.
[02:30:08] <zeeshan> lemme show you something.
[02:30:12] <zeeshan> b rb
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[02:34:51] <PetefromTn_> Hey ROB!!
[02:35:47] <Rob___> Hi Allm,
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[02:36:12] <Rob___> Sam reminded me that IRC exists :)
[02:36:28] <skunkworks> Oh - Rob as in new TP rob!!
[02:36:58] <skunkworks> Did you get my last email about the splits?
[02:37:24] <Rob___> Yeah, I just ran your high-speed config and saw that error
[02:37:27] <Rob___> so close :)
[02:37:34] <skunkworks> (I cannot live without irc...)
[02:38:02] <skunkworks> Rob___, doesn't seem to effect motion (no vel/acc violations..)
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[02:43:06] <PetefromTn_> Well I have been doing some research on the CNC lathe motor options I have
[02:43:21] <PetefromTn_> wanting to stay with the 7.5HP that it came with if possible.
[02:43:28] <zeeshan> is it common to use mt3 drills w/ cat40
[02:43:52] <PetefromTn_> like I posted earlier some photos of the opening where the original motor went
[02:44:12] <PetefromTn_> never heard of using morse taper drills in a mill really
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[02:44:52] <PetefromTn_> anyways it seems like the 213 TC frame motors MIGHT just fit in the original location.
[02:45:05] <PetefromTn_> I would have to modify or machine a new mounting plate but that is no big deal
[02:45:36] <PetefromTn_> the folks at Parker tried to call me back but somehow I missed the call and it went right to voicemail unfortunately
[02:46:05] <PetefromTn_> I would like to know about the servo motor they chose for it and what kind of motor shaft torque they were using.
[02:46:36] <PetefromTn_> I am fairly confident that a 7.5HP induction motor with a reduction ratio should be all the power I will ever need on a lathe of this size.
[02:47:16] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16335979011/in/photostream/
[02:47:17] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321172469980?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT Kinda like the looks of this one.
[02:48:17] <PetefromTn_> it is inverter duty continuous duty rated and if I do some slight trimming of the hole in the base it should fit in the original location.
[02:48:23] <zeeshan> that looks nice
[02:48:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah and it is not terribly expensive
[02:48:52] <zeeshan> thats too expensiv elol
[02:48:53] <PetefromTn_> I asked about a shipping quote
[02:48:59] * zeeshan wouldnt pay more than 60$!
[02:49:03] * zeeshan is cheap
[02:49:27] <PetefromTn_> I would love to be able to get the motor shipped here for $300 or less
[02:49:36] <PetefromTn_> I have some paypal money burning a hole heh
[02:50:33] <zeeshan> buy me a shank for ths face mill!
[02:50:35] <PetefromTn_> if I can get the 7.5hp motor for under 3 bills I can probably get the drive for around $700 or so making the power side of things just at a grand.
[02:50:49] <PetefromTn_> better yet send it to me I have a shank that will fit it LOL
[02:50:55] <zeeshan> hahah
[02:50:56] <zeeshan> damn it
[02:51:00] <zeeshan> i have all this r8 shit
[02:51:00] <PetefromTn_> what size is it
[02:51:01] <zeeshan> thats completely uselkess
[02:51:07] <PetefromTn_> sell it off
[02:51:09] <zeeshan> looks like a .75 shell mill holder
[02:51:16] <PetefromTn_> LOL thats what I have
[02:51:25] <zeeshan> i need two of em
[02:51:26] <PetefromTn_> I have two .75" shell mill holders
[02:51:45] <zeeshan> http://c4.staticflickr.com/8/7479/16336867522_e0a3f1350c_h.jpg
[02:51:50] <zeeshan> ive been DIEING to use this one
[02:51:53] <zeeshan> since it has round inserts
[02:51:54] <PetefromTn_> one of them is holding my DIY stainless bodies fly cutter
[02:52:15] <PetefromTn_> what is that other one above it?
[02:52:25] <zeeshan> the iso40 holder?
[02:52:28] <zeeshan> thats a clarkson autolock
[02:52:34] <PetefromTn_> oh
[02:52:52] <zeeshan> boring heads use a shell mill holder too i think
[02:52:53] <zeeshan> i need 3!
[02:53:29] <PetefromTn_> if I can get the motor power completed for a grand I can probably get the axis drives working for another grand or so... I already have most of the PC side of stuff and I have the 5i25/7i77
[02:53:41] <zeeshan> you have axis motors?
[02:53:45] <PetefromTn_> no they have a special threaded one
[02:53:49] <zeeshan> oh yea youre right
[02:54:03] <PetefromTn_> no I am going to buy motors and matching drives like I did before
[02:54:21] <PetefromTn_> MIGHT even try some of those closed loop steppers in a large size.
[02:54:38] <PetefromTn_> if I do that I would need to swap the 7i77 for a 7i76 somehow.
[02:56:12] <zeeshan> dont you want pwm or analog output
[02:56:15] <zeeshan> for closed loop
[02:56:17] <zeeshan> not step/dir
[02:56:59] <PetefromTn_> I would rather have closed loop servos but after watching some videos about those closed loop steppers that looks pretty impressive.
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[02:57:37] <PetefromTn_> I don't know shit about steppers tho and not sure you even needed the 7i76 or not with those closed loop drives
[02:57:45] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16311796716/in/photostream/
[02:57:48] <zeeshan> whats the best way to hold these
[02:58:04] <zeeshan> the middle 3
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[02:58:15] <zeeshan> they all have straight shank
[02:58:19] <zeeshan> with aflat
[02:58:24] <zeeshan> im thinking end mill holder?
[02:58:24] <PetefromTn_> either a big endmill holder or a collet chuck I guess
[02:58:45] <zeeshan> i dont even know what the middle tool is for.
[02:58:50] <zeeshan> with the yellow inserts
[02:59:02] <zeeshan> the chamfer one i want to use
[02:59:20] <t12_> face mill?
[02:59:39] <zeeshan> lemme look closer. might have markings
[02:59:42] <PetefromTn_> yeah looks like some sort of shell mill/face mill kinda thin
[03:00:23] <PetefromTn_> what kind is that silver one on the R8 shank
[03:05:00] <LeelooMinai> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yven682L_8I <- Scary stuff:)
[03:06:28] <zeeshan> 2 of the chamfring mills are 3/4" shank
[03:06:45] <zeeshan> the one diamond shape insert is 1"
[03:06:48] <zeeshan> all have flats..
[03:06:55] <zeeshan> so meant for end mill holders?
[03:10:30] <zeeshan> last q
[03:10:34] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16151554189/in/photostream/
[03:10:36] <zeeshan> how would you hold these
[03:10:40] <zeeshan> they dont even have a flat on em
[03:10:41] <PetefromTn_> man I can't wait for this CNC lathe to be working..
[03:10:47] <zeeshan> meant for shrinkfit holders?
[03:11:21] <PetefromTn_> they're just insert endmills no?
[03:11:29] <zeeshan> yes
[03:11:31] <zeeshan> but no flats on em
[03:11:42] <zeeshan> apx3000 series
[03:11:43] <PetefromTn_> you can grind a flat pretty easily if you wnat to
[03:11:49] <zeeshan> that seems like a crime
[03:11:50] <zeeshan> :(
[03:11:59] <PetefromTn_> why?
[03:12:15] <PetefromTn_> we do it all the time a lot of endmills do not come with flats
[03:12:23] <zeeshan> end mill that you can throw away yea
[03:12:27] <zeeshan> but not an indexable tool :P
[03:12:30] <zeeshan> just feels weird
[03:12:41] <PetefromTn_> why would you throw it away
[03:17:35] <zeeshan> will mill a flat :P
[03:18:25] <PetefromTn_> some hard shit.. easier to put it on the surface grinder in a collet fixture and grind a flat...
[03:18:37] <zeeshan> i dont have a surface grinder :P
[03:20:28] <PetefromTn_> maybe setup a little toolpost grinder on your lathe and hold the bit in the lathe...
[03:21:00] <zeeshan> i can use maybe the school surface grinder
[03:21:19] <zeeshan> tooling is going to cost a lot :/
[03:21:26] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is...
[03:21:38] <zeeshan> the 2 face mills i know i want working
[03:21:42] <zeeshan> without a face mill, game over!
[03:22:00] <PetefromTn_> heh I don't have a facemill
[03:22:05] <zeeshan> !
[03:22:11] <zeeshan> flycutter/face mill
[03:22:14] <zeeshan> you need something
[03:22:24] <PetefromTn_> yeah I have a shop built flycutter
[03:22:27] <PetefromTn_> works great
[03:22:35] <zeeshan> i bought these cheapo ones
[03:22:40] <zeeshan> that take the hand ground holders
[03:22:45] <zeeshan> 1/2" shank
[03:22:51] <PetefromTn_> mounted on a 3/4 shaft shell mill holder
[03:22:54] <zeeshan> i think i can throw those in a collet.
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[03:25:10] <bobo_> zeeshan Hyd fittings try -Adapt All .
[03:25:22] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15717807143/in/photostream/
[03:25:27] <zeeshan> can you tell what kind of shank that is?
[03:25:30] <zeeshan> looks like morese taper 2
[03:26:03] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-Arrow-500-CNC-Vertical-Machining-Center-/191487880510?&_trksid=p2056016.m2518.l4276
[03:26:25] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: buying another mill? :D
[03:26:26] <zeeshan> haha
[03:26:31] <zeeshan> hi bobo
[03:26:32] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[03:26:36] <Tom_itx> not sure why you'd use a MT2 for a mill holder
[03:26:48] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: that is a drill chuck
[03:26:50] <PetefromTn_> thought it was a drill chuck
[03:26:57] <zeeshan> dork
[03:27:06] <zeeshan> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16311793816/in/photostream/
[03:27:09] <zeeshan> i need to organize this
[03:27:13] <zeeshan> see my big end mills?
[03:27:16] <zeeshan> they were new old stock
[03:27:25] <zeeshan> i soaked them in paint tinner
[03:27:29] <zeeshan> to gasoline
[03:27:33] <zeeshan> that shit is not coming off
[03:27:35] <Tom_itx> couldn't tell from the photo angle
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[03:27:42] <Tom_itx> but i still couldn't see why
[03:28:23] <Tom_itx> pickling
[03:28:26] <bobo_> Zeeshan : www.adaptall.com
[03:28:42] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cincinnati-Arrow-500-CNC-Vertical-Machining-Center/151419439109?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27673%26meid%3Dba4bf0146e864fe39baaff63990af3bd%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D191487880510&rt=nc PRETTY!!
[03:29:14] <Tom_itx> pete's on an arrow hunt
[03:29:32] <PetefromTn_> I could really use that nice keyboard mount on that one..
[03:29:41] <Tom_itx> make one
[03:29:51] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: do you ever need a boring head anymore?
[03:29:53] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[03:30:06] <PetefromTn_> actually yeah but I sold mine like a dumbshit
[03:30:12] <zeeshan> really?
[03:30:14] <zeeshan> cant interpolate?
[03:30:16] <PetefromTn_> the machine is amazingly accurate
[03:30:19] <Tom_itx> along with his manual lathe
[03:30:25] <PetefromTn_> and interpolated holes are tight
[03:30:33] <zeeshan> so why do you need it then?
[03:30:36] <zeeshan> for deep holes?
[03:30:43] <PetefromTn_> but boring a deep hole is really needed a head
[03:30:44] <bobo_> Pete Mom said you can't buy any more mills untill the changer is fully working !
[03:30:52] <PetefromTn_> heh
[03:30:54] <zeeshan> okay i wont get an adapter for it yet
[03:30:56] <PetefromTn_> I hear ya
[03:31:12] <XXCoder> no more heads for ya!
[03:31:26] <PetefromTn_> Connor bought a REALLY REALLY big boring head that is too big for his machine and I tried to talk him out of it LOL
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[03:31:56] <PetefromTn_> isn't that a pretty Cincinatti arrow 500
[03:32:06] <Tom_itx> that last one looks almost new
[03:32:12] <Tom_itx> wonder why they're selling it
[03:32:13] <PetefromTn_> yeah it does
[03:32:23] <PetefromTn_> mine is clean but that thing is spankin'
[03:32:34] <Tom_itx> the shop looks awfully clean too
[03:32:48] <Tom_itx> but then our shop was pretty clean
[03:32:53] <PetefromTn_> that is a great price for a machine like that..
[03:33:16] <Tom_itx> he had one he sold because it had windows on it
[03:33:24] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/SHARS-CAT-40-Shank-Adapters-1-7-8-For-1-1-2-18-Boring-Head-V-FLANGE-CHUCK-NEW-/350267091420
[03:33:27] <zeeshan> do you see free shipping ?
[03:34:07] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgbgBl6HkAE
[03:34:08] <Tom_itx> free Expedited Shipping
[03:34:20] <zeeshan> damn it.
[03:34:24] <zeeshan> i need 50bux
[03:34:42] <PetefromTn_> thats cheap
[03:35:23] <PetefromTn_> that is the exact same machine I have...
[03:35:53] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: you hold your taps in a collet?
[03:35:56] * Tom_itx closes PetefromTn_'s brouser.. it's embarrasing to see drool from a man's chin
[03:36:03] <zeeshan> ahah
[03:36:29] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[03:36:52] <PetefromTn_> I REALLY need to figure out spindle orient here so I can get the toolchanger working
[03:37:04] <Tom_itx> so what you waitin for?
[03:37:25] <PetefromTn_> don't even know where to begin with it really.
[03:37:40] <Tom_itx> start with the spindle index mark
[03:37:49] <Tom_itx> tell it to stop there
[03:37:56] <PetefromTn_> how?
[03:37:57] <Tom_itx> on an M6
[03:38:05] <Tom_itx> that's the mystery
[03:38:23] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: you already have everything hooked up
[03:38:31] <Tom_itx> i was gonna look into the innards of the M6
[03:38:32] <zeeshan> setup your pid loop for spindle :P
[03:39:04] <PetefromTn_> OK I need to figure out how to do that.
[03:39:32] <Tom_itx> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/orient.9.html
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[03:41:37] <bobo_> Pete Laptop to the mill time . don't forget camera . and change your shirt too.
[03:41:50] <zeeshan> who wears a tshirt in the garage
[03:41:52] <zeeshan> i work in my boxers
[03:41:57] <PetefromTn_> Hey man I am up for it..
[03:42:15] <PetefromTn_> it seems like we would need to add some components there.
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[03:43:33] <PetefromTn_> I often work out there in sweatpants and tee shirt heh
[03:43:43] <PetefromTn_> my wife thinks I am crazy
[03:43:50] <PetefromTn_> but I often work late into the night
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[03:44:00] <PetefromTn_> I am NOT a morning person
[03:44:32] <bobo_> Zeeshan did you notice the adapt all web site ? yet ?
[03:45:15] <Tom_L> http://www.linuxcnc.org/lucid/index.php/english/forum/10-advanced-configuration/26073-spindle-orientation
[03:47:23] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode/m-code.html#sec:M19
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[03:48:48] <norias> hi
[03:49:09] <PetefromTn_> it sounds as if all of the components are already in master
[03:49:10] <norias> finally "requested" the purchase of my hardware for linuxcnc today at work
[03:49:25] <norias> i have a feeling IT is going to make this difficult
[03:49:29] <pcw_home> wheres the example hal file that uses spindle orient? :-(
[03:49:31] <pcw_home> seems like in addition to orient you need a mux comp to select who controls the spindle velocity
[03:49:41] <Tom_L> good q pcw
[03:50:12] <pcw_home> (PID or motion)
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[03:50:55] <PetefromTn_> do you guys think you can help me try to get it setup on the machine? I am not too good with the programming end.
[03:51:17] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
[03:51:25] <Tom_L> is that part of it as well?
[03:51:43] <pcw_home> yes
[03:52:04] <Tom_L> wow that's got a load of parameters
[03:52:07] <zeeshan> 2/j33
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[03:53:41] <Tom_L> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SpindleOrientation
[03:54:09] <pcw_home> the orient component looks like a helper comp but theres still a lot of hal wiring
[03:54:11] <pcw_home> (not to mention the tool change logic which probably needs a custom comp or CL)
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[03:55:08] <PetefromTn_> I think Connor already has a working toolchanger program setup and simulated based on my machines inputs and outputs
[03:55:17] <PetefromTn_> he was just unsure about how to orient
[03:55:41] <PetefromTn_> if we could get orient to work it would be a big step forward and we could move on to trying his information.
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[03:56:18] <pcw_home> Ahh some example code (but it seems to be pre- orient comp so maybe more complicated)
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[03:57:36] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/emc2hal.html
[03:59:37] <Tom_L> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/examples_spindle.html
[03:59:43] <Tom_L> probably a bit newer
[04:00:30] <Tom_L> that's more for sync motion i think
[04:00:58] <PetefromTn_> I do need to implement the spindle at speed component on my machine.
[04:01:43] <PetefromTn_> Connor made a PyVCP setup with sliders to show spindle speed and load but the spindle speed meter only shows commanded speed right now.
[04:02:57] <PetefromTn_> sounds like it is setup to disconnect the spindle speed control during the orient procedure and switch to the PID component for orient
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[04:03:27] <Tom_L> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Closed_Loop_Spindle_Speed_Control
[04:04:19] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlW1s2BNixo Robh's VMC kicks some ass it seems LOL...
[04:04:36] <Tom_L> PetefromTn_ that's somewhat what i was saying a few days ago about the M6 command
[04:05:09] <PetefromTn_> what is
[04:05:10] <Tom_L> wasn't sure how to implement it but something like call a sub to spin a slow speed and stop at the index mark
[04:05:27] <Tom_L> then return to the M6
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[04:07:04] <zeeshan> connor!~
[04:07:10] <zeeshan> since when did your name become tiffany
[04:07:13] <Connor> Yo
[04:07:15] <zeeshan> :-)
[04:07:58] <PetefromTn_> :D
[04:08:16] <zeeshan> in the trailer?
[04:08:21] <Connor> On the wife's laptop.
[04:08:24] <Connor> still in the RV
[04:08:53] <Tom_L> at least you're not paying campground fees
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[04:09:10] <PetefromTn_> Connor Hey man you would be proud of me...I figured out how to get my machine converted from Metric to Imperial with some help here...
[04:09:39] <Connor> Yea, I saw something about that on Facebook the other day. Contracts
[04:09:54] <PetefromTn_> yeah man it is SO much nicer this way.
[04:09:55] <Connor> Tom_L: No, but, renting the RV for $130.00 a nite is not nice
[04:10:11] <PetefromTn_> holy crap thats expensive
[04:10:26] <Tom_L> a hotel would be cheaper
[04:10:27] <zeeshan> what
[04:10:31] <zeeshan> you could be at a hotel
[04:10:31] <zeeshan> lol
[04:13:27] <PetefromTn_> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/emc2hal.html this seems to have the pins and hal stuff for orient..
[04:13:35] <zeeshan> http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php
[04:13:36] <PetefromTn_> how does the M19 work?
[04:13:39] <zeeshan> this website is so CHEAP
[04:13:57] <PetefromTn_> is the M6 macro including that or would you have to call it.
[04:14:40] <PetefromTn_> wow that is cheap..
[04:14:52] <zeeshan> type cat40 in search
[04:15:08] <zeeshan> er collet chucks $45
[04:15:11] <zeeshan> 32.
[04:15:14] <PetefromTn_> they got a decent looking replaceable jaws 8" three jaw lathe chuck
[04:15:15] <Connor> Tom_L Not with 5 dogs.
[04:15:18] <PetefromTn_> for cheap
[04:15:25] <zeeshan> connor why do you have 5 dogs
[04:15:37] <PetefromTn_> actually some hotels allow dogs..
[04:15:39] <Connor> zeeshan: Because we don't have childreen?
[04:15:48] <Tom_L> http://linuxcnc.org/hardy/dapper/index.php/english/forum/30-cnc-machines/27634-brother-tc-211?start=250#51172
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[04:16:16] <Connor> Just way too much trouble with the dogs.. we have RV setup with temp fencing that allows the dogs access to the back yard.. much easier thay trying to take 5 dogs outside all the time.
[04:16:37] <Connor> plus, I'm very close to the house so we can keep a eye on what's going on.
[04:16:47] <PetefromTn_> man I swear I came within a hair's breath of buying one of those Brother drill and tap machines.. they kick ass.
[04:16:59] <Tom_L> pete, read that last post
[04:17:04] <Tom_L> for better understanding
[04:17:15] <Connor> PetefromTn_: I have to install kitchen cabinets in the near future.
[04:18:27] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, "from Metric to Imperial" is nothing to be proud of ;)
[04:19:09] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is...
[04:19:12] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[04:19:16] <LeelooMinai> It's called "deevolution" :)
[04:19:27] <PetefromTn_> Connor... I have installed TONS of kitchen cabinets LOL
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[04:19:38] <PetefromTn_> it's called a step in the right direction
[04:20:09] <LeelooMinai> 1 feet ahead, 1 meter back
[04:20:16] <LeelooMinai> foot*
[04:21:27] <PetefromTn_> yeah well like I said EVERY machine I am used to running in the PRO shops I have been working in is setup this way...so I am used to it.
[04:21:39] <PetefromTn_> all you backwards people will have to just deal LOL
[04:23:03] <PetefromTn_> do you think we can try to add the spindle-orient stuff to my setup and try it?
[04:24:09] <Tom_L> pete, read andy's post on it... it's informative
[04:24:11] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, what are you trying to do?
[04:24:40] <PetefromTn_> like zeeshan said since I already have spindle feedback working and it seems to work great we just need to add the PID loop setup. I dunno how M6 works but I would assume it would need to slow the spindle to less than say 100 RPM and then switch to the orient PID and start looking for the index pulse
[04:24:48] <PetefromTn_> I did read it..
[04:25:17] <PetefromTn_> The_Ball SPindle orient for toolchange on a Cincinatti Arrow 500 Vertical Machining center running under linuxCNC
[04:25:18] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai:
[04:25:21] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: updates?
[04:26:05] <LeelooMinai> Not really - I need to wait for more money to move ahead:/
[04:26:37] <LeelooMinai> Good news is that all is left is VFD really.
[04:26:43] <zeeshan> you got the spindle?
[04:27:04] <LeelooMinai> It's in the mail still, but maybe 1-2 weeks.
[04:27:31] <LeelooMinai> In the meantime I have been doing some EE project/PCB designs
[04:28:14] <zeeshan> once you get the drive
[04:28:22] <zeeshan> pretty much need to wire it up and imachine? :D
[04:28:49] <LeelooMinai> In theory - ne3ed to buy that clamping set maybe too.
[04:29:51] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, ah is that where you need to move the spindle to X degrees for the toolchange
[04:30:01] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[04:30:09] <PetefromTn_> that is next on the hit list
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[04:30:15] <The_Ball> PetefromTn_, and you are doing this with a VFD?
[04:30:18] <PetefromTn_> before I can attempt a toolchange
[04:30:23] <PetefromTn_> trying to
[04:30:36] <PetefromTn_> Hitachi WJ200-110LF sensorless vector drive
[04:31:06] <The_Ball> cool, I have no experience with it
[04:31:34] <PetefromTn_> well WHY NOT!! ;)
[04:31:52] <LeelooMinai> Tool changing requires some specialized holders, right?
[04:32:04] <PetefromTn_> cat40
[04:32:08] <norias> hmm
[04:32:12] <norias> not necessarily
[04:32:27] <LeelooMinai> Well, unless you make a robot:)
[04:32:31] <zeeshan> LeelooMinai: nahh
[04:32:32] <norias> naw
[04:32:40] <norias> i saw a toolchanger setup
[04:32:41] <zeeshan> ive seen some tool changers where the table holds all the tools
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[04:32:46] <norias> made for an r-8 spindle
[04:32:53] <PetefromTn_> that CDC tools website has Cat40 boring heads with the shank for only $88!!
[04:32:53] <norias> at a local tool and die shop
[04:32:55] <toastydeath> r8 sux
[04:33:04] <LeelooMinai> Ok, but how will it "fix" something that sits in a collet for example?
[04:33:07] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: they look like bad quality though
[04:33:11] <norias> aye, but if you've already got r-8
[04:33:13] <zeeshan> :(
[04:33:21] <PetefromTn_> meh typical chinese schtuff
[04:33:22] <toastydeath> cat30 4 lyfe
[04:33:35] <norias> LeeLooMinai: eh? not sure i undersand
[04:33:37] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: this is a GOOD pic
[04:33:43] <PetefromTn_> how precise does a boring head need to be really...
[04:33:45] <zeeshan> showing you GOOD quality taiwanese/chinese
[04:33:49] <zeeshan> vs mainland shit chinese
[04:33:52] <zeeshan> http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/zinga14/87942481-e6ac-48c8-98c1-a2a69672e5ea_zps2ac58112.jpg
[04:33:57] <archivist_> there are dead length ER collets for tool changing
[04:33:57] <zeeshan> left is phase 2 right is cdco.
[04:34:01] <zeeshan> you cant even see that is grinded
[04:34:01] <zeeshan> lol
[04:34:12] <zeeshan> http://i1201.photobucket.com/albums/bb345/zinga14/IMG_0520_zps6cc3b9ac.jpg
[04:34:15] <LeelooMinai> norias: I mean when you have just a collet and nut to fix it, I do not see how to change the bit in easy way.
[04:34:32] <norias> uh, well
[04:34:44] <norias> there's er-32 collect chucks for r-8
[04:34:49] <PetefromTn_> look about the same to me heh
[04:34:52] <norias> stick a pull stud on that
[04:34:52] <zeeshan> dude
[04:34:56] <zeeshan> how can you not see the difference
[04:34:58] <zeeshan> one is ground!
[04:35:08] <toastydeath> r8 as a spindle taper sucks
[04:35:17] <norias> so it does
[04:35:19] <zeeshan> the other isnt even ground
[04:35:22] <norias> but if that's what you've got
[04:35:25] <norias> roll with it
[04:35:28] <zeeshan> you can still see the milling lines on it
[04:35:28] <PetefromTn_> they both look ground one is just coated..
[04:35:37] <toastydeath> doesn't really matter if the holder is ground
[04:35:49] <zeeshan> it does for cnc
[04:35:57] <PetefromTn_> why?
[04:36:04] <zeeshan> you f up your tool offset
[04:36:06] <archivist_> collets and fixed length
http://www.genswiss.com/er_taper_integrated_tiloc_tooling.htm
[04:36:11] <PetefromTn_> as long as it loads the same position
[04:36:28] <toastydeath> the type of toolpost matters waaaaaaaay, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more
[04:36:30] <PetefromTn_> which has more to do with the dimensions and taper
[04:36:33] <zeeshan> i agree toastydeath
[04:36:38] <toastydeath> piston-based toolholders will always fuck it up
[04:36:41] <PetefromTn_> wedge type are better
[04:36:50] <zeeshan> they're not as bad as peoople make them out to be though
[04:36:53] <LeelooMinai> Looking at those cat40 holders or what they are and not sure how they work. How are they detached/attached without an intervention?
[04:36:56] <zeeshan> i can hold a thou no problem with piston style
[04:36:57] <toastydeath> and dovetail/wedge/whathaveyou fuck it up way less
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[04:37:26] <PetefromTn_> the piston type I hear can kinda tilt a bit
[04:37:27] <norias> fucking machining debates
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[04:37:36] <PetefromTn_> the wedge type locks down better
[04:37:44] <zeeshan> they tilt in the same position
[04:37:45] <zeeshan> lol
[04:37:50] <norias> machinists are the most opiniated assholes i've ever met
[04:37:52] <zeeshan> at least thats what i've found
[04:37:53] <norias> as a group
[04:38:02] <zeeshan> toastydeath: youre all over the internet
[04:38:09] <zeeshan> i was searching some machine related stuff
[04:38:11] <PetefromTn_> norias your point?
[04:38:12] <zeeshan> and you keep popping up
[04:38:17] <norias> just saying, it's true
[04:38:27] <toastydeath> norias, when you're in charge of machining things that twenty grand each, you tend to be opinionated
[04:38:27] <toastydeath> *cost twenty
[04:38:28] <zeeshan> norias: i'm glad im not a machinist then!
[04:38:34] <PetefromTn_> you calling me an asshole? an opinionated one at that?
[04:38:44] <zeeshan> no PetefromTn_ you're just an a hole
[04:38:45] * zeeshan hides
[04:38:46] <zeeshan> :-)
[04:38:47] <toastydeath> I'M CALLIN U AND UR MUM, MATE
[04:39:16] <CaptHindsight> don't be a doody head
[04:39:27] <norias> when i teach machining classes...
[04:39:29] <PetefromTn_> hell everyone here is a doody head
[04:39:29] <zeeshan> toastydeath: find me some .75" cat 40 shell mill holders
[04:39:37] <norias> i state upfront that i'm totally opinionated
[04:39:38] <zeeshan> cheap!
[04:39:47] <zeeshan> norias: why
[04:39:53] <zeeshan> its more fun seeing them fail
[04:39:53] <norias> because it's true
[04:40:06] <zeeshan> when they are know it all
[04:40:07] <zeeshan> :-)
[04:40:27] <zeeshan> i have friends that are in their final year right now
[04:40:47] * LeelooMinai decides to stick with lil ER11 for now - baby steps
[04:40:49] <zeeshan> they designed a part, thought they were perfect, didnt bother reviewing and asking experienced people who build shit
[04:40:55] <PetefromTn_> I wonder how bad that $80.00 cat40 3 inch boring head is...
[04:40:57] <zeeshan> now they have parts that dont fit together
[04:40:58] <zeeshan> hahahaha
[04:41:02] <toastydeath> i can find you a 4" cat 50 shell holder
[04:41:10] <zeeshan> toastydeath: too big :[
[04:41:16] <toastydeath> 4y
[04:41:30] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: its a boring head
[04:41:32] <zeeshan> it doesnt need to be precise
[04:41:37] <norias> machining students are way better than newly graduated mechanical engineers
[04:41:38] <zeeshan> you can adjust it :P
[04:41:41] <PetefromTn_> thats what I kinda think...
[04:41:47] <zeeshan> mine is chinese
[04:41:52] <PetefromTn_> as long as it slides and locks down good..
[04:41:59] <toastydeath> http://i.imgur.com/3dCJoIm.jpg
[04:42:01] <zeeshan> the only problem with it was it wasn't loking in place.
[04:42:03] <zeeshan> it had play in it.
[04:42:09] <zeeshan> found out the slit in it had chips in it
[04:42:13] <zeeshan> not allowing it to clamp
[04:42:20] <zeeshan> toastydeath: haha
[04:42:29] <PetefromTn_> I have used cutters like that before
[04:43:10] <norias> damn
[04:43:20] <norias> differential equations just made sense to me
[04:43:23] <PetefromTn_> so about this orient thing.....
[04:43:23] <norias> for a moment
[04:43:43] <norias> orient is the opposite of occident
[04:44:04] <zeeshan> DEs are awesome!
[04:44:33] <norias> i'm learning this
[04:44:38] <toastydeath> differential equations are the worst branch of mathematics ever
[04:44:42] <norias> lol
[04:44:57] <norias> well, i'm doing this economic... analysis
[04:44:59] <toastydeath> everything is either linear, and you've reduced the problem to linear algebra or some linear transform
[04:45:04] <norias> for oure suply chain
[04:45:09] <toastydeath> or it's not linear and everything becomes complex analysis and series solutions
[04:45:15] <norias> and it seems like DE is the way it goes
[04:45:26] <toastydeath> DE is the way nearly all physical models go
[04:45:31] <norias> fair
[04:45:41] <norias> so, yeah, now i need to learn that
[04:45:53] <norias> senior machinist, indeed
[04:46:07] <toastydeath> learning DE is a bit of a misnomer
[04:46:17] <toastydeath> anything that can be solved straightaway pretty much has been
[04:46:36] <toastydeath> and anything complicated (series solutions) require a shitload more math than the average person/engineer has access to
[04:46:49] <PetefromTn_> AND.....spindle orient!?
[04:46:50] <norias> wel, maybe it will be complicated
[04:46:54] <norias> but, i doubt it
[04:47:12] <zeeshan> http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzYyWDEwODY=/z/nvEAAOxycmBS4G7N/$_57.JPG vs
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CAT40-3-4-Diameter-Caterpillar-V-Flange-Shell-End-Mill-Holder-6780-7102-/161505969931
[04:47:16] <zeeshan> can you spot a difference?
[04:47:17] <norias> i'm really doing a pretty simple model
[04:47:29] <norias> i could almost approximate it linearly
[04:47:34] <norias> and find the error
[04:47:46] <norias> i think
[04:47:49] <zeeshan> toastydeath: what are you talking about
[04:47:54] <zeeshan> most of the pdes i deal with are non linear
[04:48:17] <toastydeath> zeeshan, ....
[04:48:19] <toastydeath> where did i say that?
[04:48:56] <zeeshan> above
[04:49:03] <zeeshan> that everything gets transformed into a linear problem
[04:49:08] <zeeshan> thats cause it's easy to solve
[04:49:13] <zeeshan> and get an idea of whats going on
[04:49:21] <toastydeath> please copy paste what you're referring to because I have no idea what you're actually responding to
[04:49:32] <zeeshan> 23:44:42] <toastydeath> differential equations are the worst branch of mathematics ever
[04:49:33] <zeeshan> [23:45:02] <toastydeath> everything is either linear, and you've reduced the problem to linear algebra or some linear transform
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[04:49:53] <toastydeath> keep going
[04:50:57] <zeeshan> it just sounded to me that you thought there was no benefit in a linear pde
[04:50:58] <zeeshan> de
[04:51:13] <toastydeath> that is not at all what I said, though - i have no idea how you'd get that conclusion out of what i wrote
[04:51:29] <zeeshan> why is it the worst branch then
[04:51:56] <toastydeath> as a branch of mathematics, it's the ugliest collection of hyperspecific solutions to edge cases that exists anywhere
[04:52:18] <toastydeath> where there are general solutions, they either come out of linear algebra (anything that is linear or can be reduced to it for your purposes)
[04:52:34] <PetefromTn_> who gives a shit hehe
[04:53:08] <toastydeath> or the problem is nonlinear and can't be reduced within your error tolerance, and then you have a horrifying series solution and are praying to the gods of complex analysis
[04:53:12] <zeeshan> i don't think finding a solution is _necessary_
[04:53:17] <zeeshan> using analytical methods
[04:54:05] <toastydeath> uh, yes it is - that's where you get the numeric approximation from
[04:54:25] <zeeshan> analytical method just means you have an exact answer
[04:54:30] <zeeshan> but your exact answer is bs to begin with
[04:54:35] <zeeshan> cause your model was likely wrong to begin with.
[04:54:39] <zeeshan> +/-10% is good enough
[04:54:52] <zeeshan> the only problem is computation time
[04:54:58] <toastydeath> I'm glad that you, a student and not a working engineer on any critical project, think 10% error is okay
[04:55:04] <norias> lol
[04:55:06] <zeeshan> toastydeath: thats practical life.
[04:55:14] <zeeshan> +/- 10% is accepted in engineering practice
[04:55:18] <toastydeath> I am also glad that you do not seem to understand how the software you use arrives at those pretty pictures showing stress
[04:55:26] <zeeshan> infact that was one of the words of the builder of the candu reactor.
[04:55:29] <norias> another shit storm
[04:55:39] <zeeshan> toastydeath: i understand it really well.
[04:55:43] <zeeshan> i know there is error.
[04:55:51] <toastydeath> then why on earth do you think you don't need a solution?
[04:56:03] <zeeshan> you don't need an exact solution always.
[04:56:05] <zeeshan> it's nice to have
[04:56:07] <toastydeath> do you not understand what it means in mathematics, to have a solution?
[04:56:09] <toastydeath> it appears not
[04:56:27] <zeeshan> what difference does it make if the stress is 105 kpsi
[04:56:31] <zeeshan> vs 102?
[04:56:35] <zeeshan> vs 115?
[04:56:50] <zeeshan> you're going to test the structure anyway
[04:56:56] <toastydeath> the problem here is that you don't understand what it means to have a solution
[04:56:58] <toastydeath> it does not mean "a number"
[04:57:21] <zeeshan> i'm simplifying it
[04:57:22] <toastydeath> the array of numbers you get out of the simulation software is NOT the solution
[04:57:25] <zeeshan> it could mean the displacement field
[04:57:40] <toastydeath> the solution is the thing you put INTO the simulation software -to calculate the approximation from-
[04:57:55] <toastydeath> lots of software will calculate a solution from a raw DE for you
[04:58:09] <toastydeath> and then go through the long and annoying business of calculating the approximation from that
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[04:58:12] <zeeshan> you havent done finite difference method have you?
[04:58:17] <toastydeath> oh my god.
[04:58:23] <toastydeath> okay, I'm done with this
[04:58:26] <zeeshan> i'm completely lost what youre babbling about
[04:58:46] <zeeshan> if you have y'+y" + x = sinx + e^x
[04:58:54] <zeeshan> and you wanted to find a solution for that
[04:59:01] <zeeshan> say you couldn't solve that analytically
[04:59:10] <zeeshan> i'd use numerical methods to solve it and get a close enough answer
[04:59:14] <toastydeath> oh my god.
[04:59:15] <zeeshan> that answer isn't a soltuion?
[04:59:30] <toastydeath> you have no idea what these terms mean with respect to differential equations
[04:59:33] <PetefromTn_> hehehehe
[04:59:35] <zeeshan> it gives me the behaviour and everything i needed to know.
[04:59:49] <toastydeath> I understand you are coming from an engineering background and "it works" is good enough for you when it comes to math
[04:59:50] <toastydeath> really, i get it
[05:00:10] <toastydeath> I am coming from the mathematics background and actually having to understand why you can do what you're doing
[05:00:12] <zeeshan> toastydeath: what's funny is i found a post of you
[05:00:17] <zeeshan> talking about machining at your school shop
[05:00:28] <zeeshan> from like 2012
[05:00:34] <zeeshan> you're a professional machinist now
[05:00:39] <toastydeath> 2012?
[05:00:42] <toastydeath> earlier than that, dude
[05:01:02] <toastydeath> and no, I left machining
[05:01:23] <zeeshan> i'll just say
[05:01:25] <zeeshan> "who gives a shit"
[05:01:28] <zeeshan> as pete put it
[05:01:34] <zeeshan> as long as i can get a reasonable answer
[05:01:35] <zeeshan> i'm happy
[05:01:40] <toastydeath> the people who have to fucking write your software and then listen to dipshit responses about how it works
[05:01:41] <PetefromTn_> :)
[05:01:58] <zeeshan> toastydeath: i can write my own numerical methods software
[05:02:00] <toastydeath> i don't have a problem with anyone using the methods and not getting how they work
[05:02:02] <zeeshan> infact i have many many times
[05:02:17] <zeeshan> i don't trust most commercial software
[05:02:21] <toastydeath> i have a problem with someone asserting they know how it works and not understanding the basic terminology of the subject
[05:02:27] <zeeshan> for something in unchartered terrotories
[05:03:21] <zeeshan> toastydeath: go back to your theoretical math world :)
[05:03:50] <toastydeath> I'd love to, but weirdly i keep getting morons speaking out of their depth trying to correct me
[05:04:03] <zeeshan> whats your definition of a solution again?
[05:04:52] <toastydeath> any expression (not necessarily analyric or elementary) that satisfies the differential equation.
[05:04:59] <toastydeath> *analytic
[05:05:05] <toastydeath> fuck.
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[05:05:40] <The_Ball> arguing on the internet is like competing in the paralympics, even if you win you're still retarded
[05:06:00] <zeeshan> haha im just in an arguing mode
[05:06:08] <zeeshan> haven't done it in a while
[05:06:19] <zeeshan> mx" + cx' + kx = 0
[05:06:20] <toastydeath> recursive functions and series solutions (both of which are used for numeric solvers) count as solutions - "a solution" does not mean you're able to write down some expression in terms of polynomials and the basic trigonometric functions
[05:06:21] <zeeshan> lets say that is our de
[05:06:36] <zeeshan> one non trivial solution can be in terms of sin and cos
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[05:06:40] <zeeshan> that is not a solution?
[05:06:51] <toastydeath> sure is a solution
[05:07:25] <zeeshan> those are basic trig functions
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[05:07:29] <toastydeath> yep, they sure are.
[05:07:29] <zeeshan> that give you the solution to that DE
[05:07:37] <PetefromTn_> jeez..... this is freakin' annoying
[05:07:37] <toastydeath> absolutely!
[05:07:57] <zeeshan> so i just did exactly what you said icouldnt
[05:08:05] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan where is the video of your damn machine moving
[05:08:10] <toastydeath> i didn't exclude those from the realm of possibility, i am saying solution doesn't mean you HAVE to be able to write it down
[05:08:31] <PetefromTn_> I don't think it actually moves I think you are full of shit and just making it up hehe
[05:08:37] <toastydeath> for instance, y'' + sin(y) = x
[05:08:59] <toastydeath> Not a thing you're gonna be able to write down in terms of elementary functions (polynomials, trig)
[05:09:19] <toastydeath> actually, the trig functions are a good elementary example for this problem
[05:09:26] <toastydeath> say you got a DE whose solution was y = sin(x)
[05:09:31] <zeeshan> why i can't i use finite difference method
[05:09:38] <zeeshan> to approximate the solution to that
[05:09:45] <zeeshan> it's an approximate solution
[05:09:48] <toastydeath> sure can!
[05:09:50] <zeeshan> not exact
[05:09:54] <zeeshan> so why can't i call that a solution
[05:10:06] <toastydeath> it's not a solution - it doesn't satisfy the DE.
[05:10:13] <toastydeath> it's a numerical approximation of a solution
[05:10:19] <toastydeath> Totes valid, but not a solution
[05:10:25] <zeeshan> fair enough
[05:10:29] <toastydeath> FDM also diverges wildly
[05:10:39] <toastydeath> so it's not generally used unless it's known the DE is well behaved for some reason
[05:10:42] <zeeshan> but at the end of the day
[05:10:45] <zeeshan> i get the information i need right?
[05:11:04] <PetefromTn_> Well Goodnight!
[05:11:09] <toastydeath> only if you know it's well behaved - don't apply it to an arbitrary DE.
[05:11:10] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: !
[05:11:25] <PetefromTn_> ?!
[05:11:34] <toastydeath> more generally, what's done (by actual software) is they generate s non-elementary solution to the DE
[05:11:38] <zeeshan> sorry for ruining your night haha PetefromTn_
[05:11:40] <toastydeath> *a
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[05:12:05] <toastydeath> which is usually a recursive function, y(x + 1) = y(x) of some sort
[05:12:15] <toastydeath> or a function that is an infinite series
[05:12:38] <zeeshan> almost everything i know of ends up doing a taylor series expansion
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[05:13:24] <norias> hmm
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[05:13:33] <norias> i totally forget how to do taylor series expansion
[05:13:41] <toastydeath> sorry about that, keyboard locked up
[05:13:46] <norias> that's why i hated my calculus class
[05:13:54] <norias> i felt like we were just memorizing stuff
[05:13:59] <norias> and not learning how it worked
[05:14:01] <toastydeath> but the taylor expansion is very similar, yes
[05:14:05] <zeeshan> norias: you'll forget it
[05:14:07] <zeeshan> if you dont use it
[05:14:09] <norias> that's why i'm a machinist!
[05:14:16] <norias> take stuff apart, learn how it works
[05:14:18] <zeeshan> but i bet you'll know how to do it
[05:14:41] <toastydeath> you can also wind up with intergral solutions
[05:14:42] <zeeshan> i can't do ts expansion right off the top of my head right now
[05:14:52] <zeeshan> but i know its rewriting the function in terms of its derivatives
[05:14:58] <norias> hmm
[05:15:03] <norias> i should check that out
[05:15:08] <norias> might be useful for this problem
[05:15:15] <toastydeath> so you basically have an expression that IS an exact solution, but can't be written down usefully
[05:15:24] <toastydeath> so you expand it numerically and run that.
[05:15:26] <zeeshan> yea because its infinite
[05:15:39] <zeeshan> but thats why you have truncation errors
[05:15:42] <zeeshan> and all that fancy stuff
[05:16:01] <zeeshan> i always used to wonder why analytical solutions were needed so badly.
[05:16:02] <norias> uh, you know, at the end of the day
[05:16:04] <zeeshan> it just makes life easier
[05:16:09] <norias> i'm just doing some simple guidance
[05:16:10] <toastydeath> definitely
[05:16:10] <zeeshan> and less computationally demanding
[05:16:20] <zeeshan> look at CFD stuff
[05:16:26] <zeeshan> simulations still take years
[05:16:29] <zeeshan> :D
[05:16:46] <zeeshan> norias: simple guidance?
[05:16:49] <toastydeath> yep, and it's those long-running, fine-grained simulations that can't handle methods that diverge
[05:16:55] <toastydeath> (like finite difference)
[05:17:20] <norias> ok, so
[05:17:21] <toastydeath> you'll hear stuff like Runge-Kutta 4th order
[05:17:29] <norias> basically i know yields on processes
[05:17:33] <norias> and i want to say
[05:17:43] <norias> if you want $.01 change in final part cost
[05:18:11] <norias> you need this much change in yield
[05:18:48] <norias> sounds relatively simple
[05:18:55] <norias> (i bet it actually is for ya'll)
[05:19:07] <toastydeath> calculus
[05:19:07] <zeeshan> im absolutely terrible with economics related problems
[05:19:11] <zeeshan> fin hate it
[05:19:14] <norias> lol
[05:19:20] <toastydeath> you're talking about marginal cost and marginal profit
[05:19:21] <norias> i think what makes it complicated
[05:19:32] <norias> is yields on multiple processes
[05:19:38] <norias> that are inputs to the next
[05:19:39] <norias> etc
[05:19:46] <toastydeath> vector calculus :D
[05:19:53] <norias> never got that far
[05:20:02] <toastydeath> or lord save you, tensor calculus
[05:20:07] <norias> i'm not dealing with the profit side
[05:20:11] <norias> i'm doing the cost side
[05:20:15] <XXCoder> I went as far as linear algbera
[05:20:24] <norias> i got roped in to
[05:20:26] <XXCoder> I bet that would be fun... if I didnt get sucky teacher\
[05:20:30] <norias> 1. because i think it's interesting
[05:20:39] <norias> 2. because one of the operations is stamping
[05:20:50] <norias> and well, i used to work in a die shop
[05:20:51] <toastydeath> XXCoder, lin alg is one of my favorite subjects
[05:20:54] <zeeshan> toastydeath: have you looked at finite strain theory?
[05:20:58] <norias> so i'm the relative expert in stamping
[05:21:05] <toastydeath> zeeshan, negative
[05:21:08] <norias> linear algebra seems neat
[05:21:45] <zeeshan> toastydeath: its kinda cool because its prety new to me
[05:21:55] <zeeshan> usually you would say strain = du / dx
[05:22:08] <zeeshan> (you ignore rotational effects, only consider translational)
[05:22:17] <zeeshan> but now you have this non linear term at the end
[05:22:40] <zeeshan> no longer can use superposition
[05:22:49] <zeeshan> and all those fancy regular mechanics stuff :D
[05:22:53] <XXCoder> toasty I bet
[05:23:21] <toastydeath> this looks like continuum mechanics
[05:23:26] <toastydeath> (another subject i've never studied)
[05:23:48] <toastydeath> also XXCoder, it's very cool. once you get past the relatively boring stuff about matrices there's a lot of bizarre things you can do with it
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[05:24:00] <norias> :( i like matrices
[05:24:03] <XXCoder> I remember some of it
[05:24:05] <toastydeath> fourier transforms and signal analysis are all linear algebra
[05:24:55] <norias> hmm
[05:25:56] <toastydeath> zeeshan, you've worked with tensors?
[05:26:02] <zeeshan> yes
[05:26:06] <zeeshan> just 2nd order
[05:26:07] <toastydeath> i see this is mostly tensor analysis
[05:26:21] <toastydeath> you have me beat there, I've got a book on the subject but have never opened it
[05:27:03] <zeeshan> dude
[05:27:14] <toastydeath> ?
[05:27:21] <zeeshan> im not really crazy mathematical , so i need a more backwards approach in understanding stuff
[05:27:28] <zeeshan> for a long time, i was like 'wtf is this tensor shit'
[05:27:38] <zeeshan> after reading for like 6 months
[05:27:42] <zeeshan> i finally got my answer..
[05:27:47] <zeeshan> and it wasn't anything spectacular
[05:27:49] <toastydeath> oh, i wasn't trying to be confrontational or anything on this (sorry if it came across that way)
[05:27:55] <zeeshan> no i know
[05:27:57] <zeeshan> im just venting
[05:28:01] <zeeshan> cause i spent a long time to figure them out
[05:28:10] <toastydeath> yeah, multilinear algbera.
[05:28:11] <zeeshan> it took me 6 months to figure out that
[05:28:13] <zeeshan> all tensors are
[05:28:28] <zeeshan> in terms of 2d rank, and stress and strain and continuum mechanics
[05:28:35] <zeeshan> is a frame work that allows you to represent an element
[05:28:47] <zeeshan> without letting transalation or rotation effecting that frame work
[05:29:04] <zeeshan> ^ took 6 mo to figure that out
[05:29:58] <toastydeath> the translation and rotation are encoded in the tensor, right?
[05:30:08] <toastydeath> (it includes everything?)
[05:30:20] <zeeshan> yes
[05:30:29] <zeeshan> like when you perform a rotation on a tensor
[05:30:30] <toastydeath> that's what I thought; i come at it from the math side
[05:30:38] <zeeshan> you'll notice the previous matrix and after translation matrix
[05:30:41] <zeeshan> have invariants
[05:30:54] <zeeshan> after rotation i mean
[05:31:01] <zeeshan> translation is easier to see.
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[05:32:21] <zeeshan> i honestly dont get math from a mathematical stand point
[05:32:22] <toastydeath> i wish i knew enough engineering to look at the stress tensor and know what the terms are, because there's a related subject
[05:32:26] <zeeshan> i can do calculations and shit
[05:32:34] <zeeshan> but i try to learn in terms of physical stuff
[05:32:38] <zeeshan> like when someone says PDES to me
[05:32:42] <zeeshan> i think navier stokes
[05:32:44] <toastydeath> called multilinear algebra, where instead of a single vector being the solution at a point (of a vector function)
[05:32:49] <toastydeath> you get a whole set of vectors
[05:32:51] <zeeshan> or transient heat conduction
[05:33:11] <zeeshan> that sounds very much like a tensor
[05:33:13] <toastydeath> apparently the stress tensor is actually this sort of construction, called a blade
[05:33:24] <toastydeath> BUT what I'm curious about is this
[05:33:29] <toastydeath> if you have 3 vectors in the tensor
[05:33:51] <toastydeath> is one of those vectors the force/translation, and the other two defining the direction and magnetude of the rotation at that point?
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[05:34:47] <zeeshan> thats too hardcore of a question for me
[05:34:48] <zeeshan> haha
[05:34:52] <toastydeath> (because two vectors at a single point in multilinear algebra create something that is VERY similar to a cross product)
[05:35:07] <toastydeath> there's a whole generalization of the cross product to something much more beautiful/simple
[05:35:19] <toastydeath> using these tensors/blades
[05:35:45] <toastydeath> but yeah I went into math because the pure math side of it is really about developing new... mental models?
[05:35:57] <toastydeath> don't get me wrong I loved the limited amount of engineering i did
[05:36:01] <toastydeath> 60 credits or so
[05:36:06] <toastydeath> still simple shit
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[05:36:28] <toastydeath> but the models and how people came up with ways to think about the problems drew me away
[05:36:29] <zeeshan> the second order tensor i deal with
[05:36:44] <zeeshan> you can get by doing the dot product of 2 vectors
[05:36:48] <zeeshan> i dont know if that helps answer your q
[05:36:51] <zeeshan> lol
[05:37:03] <toastydeath> dot product or cross?
[05:37:04] <zeeshan> but its 1 kind of 2nd order tensor
[05:37:06] <zeeshan> dot product
[05:37:08] <zeeshan> er
[05:37:08] <toastydeath> weird
[05:37:11] <zeeshan> cross product
[05:37:11] <toastydeath> that makes no sense
[05:37:12] <zeeshan> not DOT
[05:37:12] <zeeshan> wtf
[05:37:15] <toastydeath> ahahha whew
[05:37:15] <toastydeath> okay
[05:37:22] <zeeshan> dot product of two vectors will give a damn scalar
[05:37:25] <toastydeath> so yes, I understand what kind of object that is
[05:37:44] <zeeshan> btw ive never heard of the term blade in my life
[05:37:45] <zeeshan> haha
[05:37:55] <zeeshan> you're really into that theoeretical frame work stuff
[05:37:55] <toastydeath> it's fairly obscure, a vector is a 1-blade
[05:38:03] <zeeshan> like that PURE math
[05:38:04] <zeeshan> REAL math
[05:38:05] <toastydeath> two vectors is a 2-blade, etc
[05:38:14] <Connor> anyone here know anything about duct work and HVAC systems ?
[05:38:23] <toastydeath> true, but it grazes applied shit pretty often in physics
[05:38:43] <toastydeath> physicists are the ones who are driving research in topology and blades/multilinear algebra
[05:38:44] <zeeshan> im not saying it has no significance
[05:38:45] <zeeshan> without it
[05:38:48] <zeeshan> we wouldn't have engineering
[05:38:49] <zeeshan> OR
[05:38:50] <zeeshan> physics
[05:39:05] <zeeshan> the framework is inherently in what we use
[05:39:08] <toastydeath> but you know how you do cross products, and you get a vector?
[05:39:19] <zeeshan> yea you do the loop rule!
[05:39:20] <zeeshan> haha
[05:39:26] <toastydeath> And the direction it points is normal to the plane of rotation (or whatever)
[05:39:29] <zeeshan> i have no idea how you get it from a framework perspective
[05:39:41] <toastydeath> it's a pain in the dick, don't worry about it much
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[05:40:15] <toastydeath> But there's something called the wedge product, where instead of getting a vector
[05:40:29] <toastydeath> you get an actual square sitting in the plane of rotation
[05:40:40] <zeeshan> literally a square?
[05:41:17] <toastydeath> so it splits the thing up into (area representing the magnetude) * (unit vectors in the plane of the rotation)
[05:41:19] <toastydeath> yep
[05:41:23] <toastydeath> that's how it's interpreted
[05:41:49] <toastydeath> it also does weird things like, it works in any dimension (so if you have 4 dimensional shit, a la physics, it works)
[05:41:53] <toastydeath> so you can have torque in spacetime
[05:42:08] <toastydeath> cross product only works in 3, and has a 7 dimensional analogous thing
[05:42:35] <toastydeath> it can also go higher or lower dimension not only in terms of the thing it's embedded in (like a torque in 4d spacetime)
[05:42:43] <toastydeath> but also in terms of the actual quantity it describes
[05:43:03] <toastydeath> so you can wind up with a volume, representing some sort of density
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[05:43:26] <toastydeath> where torque is 2d in a 3d space, etc
[05:43:41] <toastydeath> anyway, sorry for the rambling
[05:43:52] <toastydeath> this is a subject i've wanted to get into and just haven't
[05:44:00] <toastydeath> one day i will get off my ass and study it properly
[05:44:17] <zeeshan> haha
[05:44:23] <zeeshan> its too advanced for me
[05:44:28] <zeeshan> to me a cross product is the good ol
[05:44:33] <zeeshan> do some shit to a vector
[05:44:44] <zeeshan> and i get a 3rd vector perpendicular to them
[05:44:47] <toastydeath> yeah it's the old standby
[05:45:02] <zeeshan> like when i find the eigenvectors (princple axes)
[05:45:04] <toastydeath> i like using wedge occasionally when I have to do something that's lower level, just to confuse the prof
[05:45:13] <zeeshan> i just do the cross product between the 2 known eigenvectors
[05:45:14] <zeeshan> to get my 3rd
[05:45:25] <zeeshan> haha toastydeath
[05:45:35] <toastydeath> i am going to assume here that you somehow know you MUST have 3 eigenvectors?
[05:45:48] <zeeshan> yea
[05:45:54] <zeeshan> its from that 2nd order tensor stuff
[05:45:59] <toastydeath> baller
[05:46:11] <zeeshan> but seriously you're right
[05:46:15] <zeeshan> engineers just use the math
[05:46:24] <zeeshan> we don't really full capture all this fine stuf.
[05:46:26] <zeeshan> *fine stuff.
[05:46:42] <toastydeath> i respect the shit out of that, just saying - i don't want to sound like i think it's trivial, because my opinion is that inventing a tool is fine
[05:46:42] <zeeshan> like they tried teaching us orthogonality of functions
[05:46:45] <zeeshan> and most of the class was like
[05:46:46] <zeeshan> "WTF"
[05:46:49] <toastydeath> but it's like inventing a paintbrush
[05:46:52] <zeeshan> functions can be orthogonal?
[05:46:53] <zeeshan> haha
[05:46:58] <toastydeath> hahahahaha
[05:47:05] <toastydeath> hell yeah they can be, that's the basis of signal analysis
[05:47:13] <zeeshan> fourier series!
[05:47:58] <zeeshan> i feel bad poor pete quit
[05:47:58] <toastydeath> that under a family of inner products defined by an integral from -pi to pi, n*sin(x) and n*cos(x) multiply to 0 under that inner product
[05:47:58] <zeeshan> haha
[05:48:04] <zeeshan> he was talking about his spindle orient
[05:48:10] <zeeshan> and bam came math wars
[05:48:17] <toastydeath> MATH WARS, now on Lifetime.
[05:49:01] <toastydeath> hm, actually i think all integral transforms have an inner product associated with them? i'm not sure, but the fourier definitly does and i think the lagrange transform does as well
[05:49:22] <toastydeath> i'm not sure what the lagrange space looks like though, because i've never messed with it for funsies
[05:49:38] <zeeshan> i think all these transforms
[05:49:44] <zeeshan> must have orthonormality
[05:49:51] <zeeshan> otherwise they'd fail
[05:49:56] <toastydeath> how so?
[05:50:14] <zeeshan> well i dont know if orthonormality is the correct word
[05:50:23] <toastydeath> no no, i get what you mean though
[05:50:28] <zeeshan> but they must all follow some set of rules
[05:50:38] <zeeshan> otherwise you'd be changing the meaning of what you started with
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[05:50:52] <toastydeath> i'm not sure that's ENTIRELY true, because the reason the fourier transform cares about orthogonal functions
[05:51:01] <zeeshan> those guys that study topology prolly know
[05:51:06] <toastydeath> is because you want to have an infinite dimensional vector space
[05:51:26] <toastydeath> so without figuring out how to make sin(x) and cos(x) orthogonal, you don't have your nice infinite space
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[05:51:55] <toastydeath> but we don't use the laplace transform for approximating functions, so it doesn't matter if we have an inner product _at all_
[05:51:57] <zeeshan> that shit is beyond my head
[05:51:57] <zeeshan> lol
[05:52:10] <toastydeath> sry!
[05:52:37] <toastydeath> look at it like this - in a 2d space, if you have 3 vectors, it's ALWAYS gonna be linearly dependant, right?
[05:52:38] <zeeshan> engineers definition of fourier series: "it lets me write any function in terms of sin and cos"
[05:52:40] <zeeshan> :D
[05:52:50] <toastydeath> you can't make that 3rd vector point off in a new direction if you are confined to 2d
[05:52:59] <zeeshan> yea
[05:53:01] <zeeshan> agreed
[05:53:33] <toastydeath> what _defines_ dimensions in this sense is the inner product - the dot product
[05:53:47] <toastydeath> you DEFINE what orthogonal means
[05:54:34] <toastydeath> in normal space, the dot product is what it is so that the linear algebra matches up with the geometric idea of dimension
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[05:54:47] <zeeshan> ah
[05:54:58] <zeeshan> so that holds true for irregardless of any # of dimensions
[05:55:00] <toastydeath> in fourier, you don't know how many times you're gonna have to write down sin/cos
[05:55:02] <toastydeath> ya
[05:55:19] <toastydeath> and so the question arises - how many times can we write these down and have them be *unique*
[05:55:32] <zeeshan> okay
[05:55:36] <toastydeath> or will we get shit like cos(x) = cos(2x) = cos(4x) or some other harmonic thing
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[05:55:40] <zeeshan> so thats why you show they're orthogonal
[05:55:43] <toastydeath> yes
[05:55:48] <zeeshan> that makes a lot of sense
[05:55:56] <zeeshan> haha you really know this shit well
[05:56:00] <zeeshan> if i asked my prof that
[05:56:03] <toastydeath> and it turns out, if you define the inner product really carefully
[05:56:05] <zeeshan> he would not be able to answer that
[05:56:16] <toastydeath> you wind up with this concept of "orthogonal" in function space
[05:56:37] <toastydeath> that makes every frequency multiple orthogonal
[05:56:47] <toastydeath> for JUST cos/sin
[05:57:02] <toastydeath> other functions still exist in fourier space - x, x^2, ln(x)
[05:57:26] <toastydeath> but we can't use them as vectors in our basis that we're going to use to approximate other functions
[05:57:33] <zeeshan> why
[05:57:34] <toastydeath> because they're not orthogonal using that inner product
[05:57:37] <zeeshan> because they can be dependent on each other ?
[05:57:46] <toastydeath> yep
[05:58:07] <toastydeath> a basis vector has to be independent of all other basis vectors
[05:58:13] <toastydeath> in all their combinations
[05:58:31] <toastydeath> ...we're asserting we can write down any function if we use an infinite number of cos/sin, right?
[05:58:40] <zeeshan> yea
[05:58:42] <zeeshan> thats true
[05:58:51] <toastydeath> so if i were to choose, say, 2x^2 as a basis vector
[05:58:59] <toastydeath> ...that's already covered by some combination of sin/cos
[05:59:02] <zeeshan> yes
[05:59:03] <toastydeath> which are already basis vectors
[05:59:37] <toastydeath> in other spaces, that's not true - all polynomials, etc are independent of sin/cos
[05:59:41] <zeeshan> sin and cos are truly cool
[06:00:04] <toastydeath> but in _this_ space, because we chose the right inner product, we are able to reduce the number of dimensions required to cover all of function space
[06:00:06] <toastydeath> to just sin/cos
[06:00:35] <zeeshan> this is topology right?
[06:00:39] <toastydeath> nope, plain linear algebra
[06:00:44] <zeeshan> haha
[06:00:50] <zeeshan> its interesting
[06:01:01] <zeeshan> especially now i know what the hell is some what going on
[06:01:09] <toastydeath> you'd lose most of the structure we're talking about if you want to alter it topologically
[06:01:23] <toastydeath> for instance, because of how you measure distances between two points
[06:01:35] <toastydeath> sqrt( x^2 + y^2 + z^2)
[06:01:52] <toastydeath> that actually _forces_ the topology of the space to be what it is
[06:02:16] <toastydeath> every metric (distance measure between points) forces a unique topology on the space
[06:02:23] <zeeshan> is what what metrics are?
[06:02:24] <zeeshan> hahah
[06:02:26] <zeeshan> Nice
[06:02:26] <toastydeath> yup
[06:02:49] <toastydeath> there's more to it than that - a metric has to follow some specific rules
[06:02:58] <toastydeath> on the properties it has to have, like it can't be negative
[06:03:01] <zeeshan> well i was lost before you said that
[06:03:05] <zeeshan> i tried to understand manifolds
[06:03:09] <zeeshan> but they kept on talking about metrics
[06:03:12] <zeeshan> and im like this is a band
[06:03:16] <toastydeath> hahaha
[06:03:23] <zeeshan> metric makes sense.
[06:03:24] <zeeshan> measurement
[06:03:40] <toastydeath> the reason they go on about it, is because with a weird metric, you wind up generating geometries that are manifolds, i.e. that aren't flat
[06:03:47] <toastydeath> like, there is a metric for spheres
[06:04:04] <toastydeath> a metric for saddles, etc
[06:04:22] <zeeshan> that stuff is truly intertesting
[06:04:25] <zeeshan> but its really hard to understand
[06:04:28] <toastydeath> ya
[06:04:32] <zeeshan> because they don't teach you the idea behind it
[06:04:36] <zeeshan> theyre throwing math at you
[06:04:42] <toastydeath> that's honestly why i loved going at it from the math side
[06:04:51] <toastydeath> because all we care about are the ideas behind it, not using it for anything
[06:05:09] <zeeshan> well thats how mr einstein got his idea of space time.
[06:05:13] <toastydeath> so we get to sit there and mull this stuff over and the profs teaching the classes have a MUCH deeper and more intuitive sense
[06:05:17] <zeeshan> he went through other peoples work
[06:05:20] <zeeshan> and saw a link
[06:05:30] <zeeshan> did tons of though experiments
[06:05:49] <toastydeath> it's his friend's fault we have tensors
[06:06:27] <toastydeath> topology is crazy cool, though - it makes no sense at first
[06:06:33] <toastydeath> but you know all that epsilon-delta shit
[06:06:38] <toastydeath> for limits in calculus
[06:06:40] <toastydeath> and continuity?
[06:06:51] <zeeshan> limits you mean?
[06:06:58] <zeeshan> yea
[06:07:05] <toastydeath> all that stuff comes out of very simple definitions in topology
[06:07:17] <toastydeath> and if you know the topology, you don't actually need to know most of that
[06:07:21] <zeeshan> dude i really love that stuff.
[06:07:40] <zeeshan> newton came up with newtonianian mechanics
[06:07:46] <zeeshan> cause it WORKS
[06:07:47] <zeeshan> and then bam
[06:07:48] <toastydeath> laplacian mechanics :D
[06:07:56] <zeeshan> einstein is like hey you're not completely right
[06:08:00] <zeeshan> but you're not completely wrong either
[06:08:03] <zeeshan> and expanded
[06:08:08] <zeeshan> i feel like math is the same way.
[06:08:15] <zeeshan> you start off somewher
[06:08:19] <zeeshan> and it keeps expanding
[06:08:22] <toastydeath> yep
[06:08:33] <toastydeath> you're always free to change your definitions
[06:08:38] <toastydeath> or remove or add rules
[06:08:47] <zeeshan> as long as you have a good solid basis
[06:09:04] <zeeshan> well in the case of string theory
[06:09:09] <zeeshan> you anticipate you have a good solid basis :)
[06:09:31] <toastydeath> it's neat because you don't even need a solid basis - you can figure out the consequences of your choices without any idea of where it will lead
[06:09:44] <toastydeath> "what if i assume THIS"
[06:09:48] <toastydeath> and go off on some crazy rabbit hole
[06:09:54] <toastydeath> very often, the answer is "nothing useful"
[06:10:03] <toastydeath> like, what happens if you allow division by zero?
[06:10:15] <zeeshan> the world falls apart
[06:10:15] <toastydeath> it turns out only one number can exist - zero
[06:10:39] <zeeshan> 0 started it all
[06:10:49] <toastydeath> so if you really need division by zero, you can allow it - but then you can't assume you have things like "the number 5"
[06:10:52] <toastydeath> "Subtraction"
[06:11:17] <zeeshan> hehe
[06:11:46] <zeeshan> to understand math better from a no limits perspective
[06:11:54] <zeeshan> where do you think someone should start?
[06:12:01] <toastydeath> haaa no limits
[06:12:02] <zeeshan> when i say math
[06:12:03] <toastydeath> GREAT PUN
[06:12:05] <zeeshan> i mean real math
[06:12:11] <zeeshan> where it helps you understand topology
[06:12:16] <zeeshan> and some of the things we're talking about
[06:12:19] <toastydeath> topology is actually not that far away
[06:12:25] <zeeshan> leads you to metrics and tensors
[06:12:33] <zeeshan> i wanna follow how this stuff came about
[06:12:34] <toastydeath> like, you could be ready for topology with a one semestor introduction to abstract math
[06:12:45] <zeeshan> and how it can be twisted to get stuff like the einstein space time tensor
[06:12:46] <toastydeath> so there's a book, let me get the title
[06:12:49] <zeeshan> or whatever they call it
[06:13:14] <toastydeath> so this is the book pretty much everybody cites
[06:13:20] <toastydeath> http://www.amazon.com/How-Prove-Structured-Approach-2nd/dp/0521675995/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421907183&sr=8-1&keywords=how+to+prove+it
[06:13:37] <toastydeath> I never used it or read it because I took a class on the subject - proofwriting - as part of college
[06:13:43] <toastydeath> required for all math majors
[06:14:17] <zeeshan> No background beyond standard high school mathematics is assumed. P
[06:14:22] <zeeshan> what do i not believe that
[06:14:22] <zeeshan> lol
[06:14:26] <toastydeath> it's true
[06:14:43] <toastydeath> we actually get a lot of students failing out of pure math and either changing majors, or going into math secondary education
[06:14:55] <toastydeath> because it's usually taught at the end of sophmore year
[06:15:02] <zeeshan> https://opeconomica.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/daniel-j-velleman-how-to-prove-it.pdf
[06:15:02] <toastydeath> after calc 3 and lin alg
[06:15:05] <zeeshan> god i love the internet
[06:15:07] <zeeshan> fREE BOOKS
[06:15:15] <toastydeath> xlt
[06:15:24] <toastydeath> but then, people are used to math being "solve for x"
[06:15:34] <toastydeath> versus "argue the following"
[06:15:46] <zeeshan> well i guess one prepares you for a practical life
[06:15:48] <zeeshan> the other expands your mind
[06:16:05] <toastydeath> central to the idea of math is the idea of "structure"
[06:16:29] <toastydeath> and nobody ever introduces people to these structures in mathematics as part of normal undergrad stuff
[06:16:46] <toastydeath> like, how I'm able to talk about fourier analysis like that is not because i've memorized a bunch of shit
[06:17:02] <toastydeath> but because i intuitively understand what the space -looks like-
[06:17:12] <toastydeath> the central features that make it what it is, versus some other space
[06:17:30] <toastydeath> and all the crap i was saying just follows naturally from that understanding
[06:17:37] <zeeshan> yes
[06:17:49] <zeeshan> i feel like if you fully understood it
[06:17:59] <zeeshan> you'd have an easier time navigating through the practical works as well.
[06:18:05] <toastydeath> yes, extremely so
[06:18:07] <zeeshan> cause you have an intuition for it
[06:18:12] <zeeshan> thats why i went into mech eng
[06:18:13] <toastydeath> this is why diff eq was not super hard for me conceptually
[06:18:20] <zeeshan> you have a feel of forces
[06:18:21] <zeeshan> heat
[06:18:22] <zeeshan> energy
[06:18:41] <zeeshan> when someone is like what is the force in this beam
[06:18:45] <zeeshan> you're not just looking at vectors
[06:18:47] <zeeshan> you can get a feel for it
[06:18:54] <toastydeath> yep
[06:19:07] <zeeshan> they've taught us math as a tool
[06:19:09] <zeeshan> and it still is
[06:19:13] <toastydeath> and that same intuition is possible for each and every subject in math
[06:19:14] <zeeshan> even in my grad work..
[06:19:23] <zeeshan> using mathematical models to simulate something
[06:20:01] <zeeshan> i just read the preface of this book
[06:20:03] <zeeshan> it looks easy to follow
[06:20:11] <toastydeath> it is an interesting thing, because what will happen to you if you follow down this path
[06:20:23] <toastydeath> is you will see something written in math, and then you'll see the text description
[06:20:31] <toastydeath> and at some point, the math will make more sense than the english will
[06:20:51] <toastydeath> there will be more instantaneous understanding of the physics through the equation, than the text accompanying the equation
[06:22:05] <toastydeath> i am not sure how much this falls into engineering, but nearly every physicist i know has this
[06:22:16] <toastydeath> they take so much math that they think in it
[06:22:35] <toastydeath> gradients and exterior products and complex analysis
[06:22:42] <norias> f'in physicists
[06:22:47] <norias> i work with some of those people
[06:22:49] <norias> bah
[06:23:02] <zeeshan> toastydeath: we just apply it
[06:23:23] <norias> yeah, i agree with that
[06:23:30] <norias> i got to this point in life were
[06:23:38] <norias> there's 1,000 things i want to do
[06:23:42] <norias> but i have to choose
[06:24:00] <norias> i see beauty in pure math
[06:24:13] <norias> but what really excites me
[06:24:18] <norias> is the practical benefit
[06:24:41] <zeeshan> i think if people read "how to prove it"
[06:24:55] <zeeshan> and use deductive reasoning
[06:25:02] <zeeshan> we would not have wars :)
[06:25:06] <norias> uh
[06:25:06] <zeeshan> or have many more of them
[06:25:08] <norias> well
[06:25:13] <norias> heck
[06:25:14] <toastydeath> hahaha
[06:25:24] <norias> wars are an unfortunate byproduct of humanity
[06:25:24] <toastydeath> "One or the other, i'm not sure which. This could either be very good, or very bad."
[06:25:31] <zeeshan> lol
[06:25:37] <toastydeath> but if you do read that book
[06:25:40] <norias> i see what you did there
[06:25:42] <zeeshan> im planning to
[06:25:43] <toastydeath> topology, by Munkres
[06:25:44] <zeeshan> it looks good
[06:25:51] <zeeshan> i need somewhere to start
[06:25:54] <toastydeath> is basically a conversational introduction to point-set topology
[06:26:07] <toastydeath> and topology exists WELL before numbers or any other highschool math
[06:26:38] <zeeshan> topology interested me
[06:26:46] <zeeshan> when i saw the modbus strip
[06:26:50] <zeeshan> aka the mobius strip
[06:26:57] <toastydeath> more useful to you career wise, "Linear Algebra Done Right" is a high undergrad, low graduate level linear algebra book, that goes into actual linear algebra - not matrices
[06:27:18] <toastydeath> it does not use much math either
[06:27:25] <toastydeath> in the calculate this sense
[06:28:05] <toastydeath> complex analysis, too, but that's a LOT of calculation. Much better treatment of vibrations and periodic functions than you have in Real space
[06:28:21] <toastydeath> (and is why EEs love complex analysis)
[06:28:41] <zeeshan> we kinda touuch it
[06:28:43] <toastydeath> not as much calculation as an engineering class, though
[06:28:44] <zeeshan> for mechanics vibrations
[06:28:53] <zeeshan> *mechanical
[06:29:00] <toastydeath> i like it because of the visualizations it allows
[06:29:04] <toastydeath> rather than the calculation itself
[06:30:06] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKxjikVs_4Q
[06:30:07] <zeeshan> lol
[06:30:13] <zeeshan> i was so amazied i could do this using math
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[06:32:03] <zeeshan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpVB0ouezb0
[06:32:05] <zeeshan> found an old video
[06:32:15] <zeeshan> who says you cant get good finish on stainless on a 12x36 chinese lathe!
[06:32:31] <zeeshan> im such a noob in that vid
[06:32:33] <zeeshan> wasnt feeding fast enough
[06:33:43] <toastydeath> hahaha
[06:34:31] <toastydeath> that's a pretty darn nice finish
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[07:56:59] <archivist_> I see no finger nail test on that finish
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[08:01:45] <zeeshan> :P
[08:01:52] <zeeshan> man it really hurts me to buy 5 pull studs
[08:01:53] <zeeshan> for 100 bux
[08:01:57] <zeeshan> its a frigging bolt
[08:02:03] <zeeshan> i don't see what the hell the big deal is
[08:02:08] <Jymmmm> Um, I think he let the magic smoke out...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84359240&x-yt-ts=1421782837&v=lYf9HK-rI1s
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[08:03:00] <archivist_> zeeshan, I got lucky a few years ago, a mitutoyo finish measuring tool
[08:03:58] <zeeshan> profilometer?
[08:04:03] <zeeshan> archivist ... youre in the uk
[08:04:12] <zeeshan> have you heard of "shop-apt.co.uk"
[08:04:16] <zeeshan> http://www.shop-apt.co.uk/din-2080-40-er-collet-chucks/din-2080-40-collet-chuck-for-er20-collets-70mm-gauge-length.html
[08:04:18] <zeeshan> these guys
[08:04:49] <archivist_> I am in UK
[08:06:18] <archivist_> at those prices they have to be chinese/indian budget
[08:06:36] <zeeshan> glanze is indian
[08:06:38] <zeeshan> they make pretty good tools
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[08:09:39] <archivist_> I thought glanze was eastern europe originally
[08:13:11] <zeeshan> why do er32 collet chucks come in different lengths?
[08:14:13] <archivist_> depends what you need, can you reach the depth without spindle housing crashing into the work
[08:14:23] <zeeshan> why not always get shortest?
[08:14:46] <zeeshan> hm
[08:14:54] <zeeshan> i guess it'd be more rigid to get a longer one
[08:15:05] <zeeshan> vs stick end mill out more
[08:15:38] <archivist_> sandvik have an extension system
[08:17:01] <archivist_> why do seller not realise how old something is and price accordingly
http://www.electronicsurplus.com/mitutoyo-178-903e-60-surftest-iii-surftest-iii-profilometer-system
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[08:17:08] <archivist_> sellers
[08:17:51] <zeeshan> hahahahaha
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[08:18:50] <archivist_> I got mine for about £40 on fleabay iirc
[08:19:33] <archivist_> have to drag the stylus by hand but so what
[08:19:37] <zeeshan> that thing is ancient
[08:22:41] <archivist_> 30 years old possibly
[08:22:49] <zeeshan> as long as it works
[08:22:50] <zeeshan> it works :)
[08:23:25] <archivist_> I got some standards elsewhere, yes it works :)
[08:24:37] <archivist_> funny thing for me was before getting it, way back I learned that finish was not measured although part of the exam practical for clockmakers
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[08:27:22] <archivist_> I should measure my exam piece now I can
[08:27:34] <zeeshan> you got that for a killer deal :)
[08:27:41] <zeeshan> profilometers arent cheap :/
[08:28:07] <archivist_> depth of field a bit crap
http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_03_29_measuring_tools/IMG_1752.JPG
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[08:39:05] <zeeshan> whats that
[08:39:08] <zeeshan> the tips?
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[08:40:16] <archivist_> it is part seen inside french clocks, part of the striking mechanism
[08:40:48] <archivist_> started making two but only needed to finish one
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[08:46:56] <archivist_> not the best pictures, even missing this part in the dissassembled pic
http://www.geocities.ws/mvhw/japy.html
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[08:48:32] <archivist_> it is basically a test should one be let loose with an antique I suppose and bake the correct replacement
http://www.abbeyclock.com/cal/japy2.html
[08:52:17] <Jymmmm> If I take two cheap ass DMM's that each can read 300VAC, and connect them in series, could I read 600VAC?
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[08:57:48] <archivist_> could be lucky or unlucky, to guarantee the luck first make a potential divider
[08:58:26] <archivist_> so each only get approx half always
[08:58:57] <Jymmmm> Either way, probably a bad idea. I was trying to get away without a HV probe. I just found this though...
http://www.pocketmagic.net/2010/11/homemadediy-high-voltage-probe/
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[08:59:40] <archivist_> that is a voltage divider anyway
[08:59:54] <archivist_> less accurate
[09:00:04] <archivist_> unless your parts are good
[09:00:35] <Jymmmm> If I'm within +/- 500V, it's close enough.
[09:00:53] Jymmmm is now known as Jymmm
[09:00:54] <archivist_> just stick you finger on the wire then
[09:01:12] <Jymmm> Nuh uh! =)
[09:01:27] <archivist_> alive <500 dead yes >500
[09:01:27] <Jymmm> 5 to 30KV potential
[09:01:55] <Jymmm> err 5KV to 30MegaV
[09:02:19] <archivist_> make absofukkinlutely sure the gnd wire on the probe is grounded
[09:02:34] <Jymmm> I'm playing with stun guns
[09:02:47] <Jymmm> Will do for sure.
[09:03:19] <archivist_> the voltage is with reference to some fixed level, use gnd!
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[09:39:22] <dr_traktor> Would you happen to know if Spartan 6 based boards from Mesa Electronics can be memory mapped to PCIE with block ram?
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[09:45:02] <Jymmm> Ask again in 5 hours.
[09:46:53] <dr_traktor> What happens in 5 hours?
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[09:48:03] <archivist> PCW wakes up
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[10:04:31] <Computer_Barf> is it common that atom boards running linux cnc are booted from hard drives or would it be acceptable to usb boot?
[10:16:13] <archivist_herron> usb can give you unacceptable delays, you dont want disk activity during machining
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[11:17:30] <Martiini> I've decided to learn welding robot programming ..What do I need to know? how will I learn? kuka, fanuc, abb, motoman - all robots the same? All robots are programmed with cnc, no?
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[13:19:48] <Deejay> tag
[13:21:34] <Jymmm> Deejay: *WHACK*
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[15:23:18] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150122-add-a-closed-loop-control-to-your-3d-printer-and-never-worry-about-missed-steps-again.html
[15:23:53] <jdh> seems like step loss wouldn't be much of a problem for typical builds
[15:23:57] <CaptHindsight> why didn't anyone ever think of this before?
[15:25:05] <TekniQue> I have a problem with missed steps on my dynamometer load valve
[15:25:28] <TekniQue> I don't know if it lies in the stepper driver or in my FPGA logic that controls it
[15:25:56] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight LOL who'd a thunk it
[15:26:04] <TekniQue> the logic does acceleration/deceleration control
[15:26:10] <TekniQue> and pauses between changing direction
[15:26:19] <TekniQue> but maybe it just needs tuning of those parameters
[15:26:28] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: Zomg! Closed loop? They should come up with a name for that.. like ... ser something... ser...vo?
[15:26:29] <malcom2073> servo?
[15:26:30] <malcom2073> yeah!
[15:27:05] <TekniQue> it's not such a big problem other than the valve goes offset after running for a while constantly adjusting the load in closed loop
[15:27:13] <TekniQue> so it may no longer be able to open fully
[15:27:49] <Loetmichel> *haha* my co-workers just lokked at me irritated... there was "house of the rising sun" in the radio... and i sang on top of my lungs along to it ;-)
[15:27:54] <malcom2073> TekniQue: Probably need to turn down the acceleration a bit, or implement constant jerk motion control if it's a high mass system
[15:28:21] <malcom2073> TekniQue: Or be really cool, and put an encoder on it :P
[15:28:41] <CaptHindsight> I think I read about that somewhere
[15:28:46] <PetefromTn_> good song!
[15:28:58] <TekniQue> CaptHindsight: it is somewhat typical for Arduino users to be unaware of how things are done in the real world
[15:29:08] <TekniQue> how things are done outside of the internet diy blogs
[15:29:21] <malcom2073> CaptHindsight: I wanted to be more witty, but I couldn't find the etymology of servomechanism
[15:29:29] <CaptHindsight> TekniQue: it's the editors that also appear to be clueless
[15:29:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah but you would REALLY have to be living under a rock to not know about closed loop control if you have built a CNC of any sort
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[15:30:26] <malcom2073> I think 3drs is also the blog that listed the "worlds first 3d printing chat!" the other week (ignoring the you know... other chats that have been around for years)
[15:30:39] <malcom2073> They do live under fairly large boulders
[15:31:21] <TekniQue> malcom2073: it's a pretty low mass system but it's a pretty big ball valve so needs a bit of torque
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BZTkccdjTo
[15:31:54] <TekniQue> it's possible that it might be aided by reducing the microstep size, I don't know
[15:32:09] <TekniQue> reducing the microstep fraction
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[15:32:35] <TekniQue> but I would've thought thatn shouldn't make for lost steps, it should still have whole step precision
[15:32:41] <TekniQue> regardless of microstepping
[15:32:47] <malcom2073> It should yeah
[15:33:54] <malcom2073> Can you afford to turn down the acceleration?
[15:33:59] <TekniQue> sure
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[15:35:09] <TekniQue> I may need to drop the current a bit too, the motor runs pretty hot
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[15:36:16] <malcom2073> Most steppers can run absurdly hot and be fine, but it varies by motor, skipping steps though I'd worry about it skipping more if you lower the current
[15:36:31] <TekniQue> true
[15:36:36] <malcom2073> You could also do a gear reduction
[15:36:40] <malcom2073> stick a larger gear on the valve
[15:36:50] <skunkworks> I have over driven steppers which caused all kinds of odd problems...
[15:36:55] <TekniQue> I had to switch the driver to run in full current at standby
[15:37:08] <TekniQue> because it emitted so much EMI when at half current
[15:37:13] <TekniQue> it interfered with my load cell
[15:37:37] <TekniQue> whenever the valve stopped moving I'd see the torque jump
[15:38:06] <TekniQue> it otherwise works well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb15HcSz2ig
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[15:40:12] <TekniQue> I built everything there, only part that isn't home made is the water brake
[15:40:21] <skunkworks> snowmobile racing without snow!
[15:40:27] <malcom2073> Nice
[15:41:28] <TekniQue> skunkworks: oh yeah
[15:41:34] <malcom2073> TekniQue: You're the one who got me interested in building my own engine dyno, it's still on my list, albiet near the end :P
[15:42:08] <TekniQue> oh yeah? I've started building another one now
[15:42:23] <TekniQue> I got a 9" brake from Land & Sea off ebay
[15:42:32] <TekniQue> it was a complete kit but with manual load control
[15:42:44] <TekniQue> and limited data acquisition
[15:43:00] <TekniQue> I'm going to duplicate the system I have on the big dyno
[15:43:22] <TekniQue> to have automated load control and more data inputs
[15:43:41] <malcom2073> Nice, yeah that's the big expense is the brake (and pump)
[15:43:50] <TekniQue> it's very difficult to test my snowmobile
[15:43:52] <malcom2073> Everything else is doable with some diy
[15:44:01] <TekniQue> because it's turbocharged and has a very steep power band
[15:44:26] <TekniQue> goes from maybe 70 horsepower at 7000RPM to 150 at 7500
[15:44:32] <malcom2073> Heh nice
[15:44:45] <TekniQue> and peaks at just over 200 at 8500
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[16:00:36] <TekniQue> I need to build another load valve to control the small dyno
[16:00:48] <TekniQue> it takes in a 3/4" pressurised water supply
[16:01:25] <TekniQue> I find it incredible that there's not much to be found in terms of flow control valves that are electronically controlled
[16:01:40] <TekniQue> all the valves I've been able to find are ultra slow response
[16:01:43] <malcom2073> Hmm, yeah I've seen a lot of on/off, but not much control
[16:01:53] <malcom2073> Or they rely on water pressure to set the actual flow
[16:01:54] <TekniQue> like 30 seconds to go from fully open to fully closed
[16:02:11] <malcom2073> as opposed to being an actuated ballvalve
[16:02:21] <malcom2073> TekniQue: maybe there's a market for it, make them and sell them? :P
[16:02:52] <TekniQue> maybe
[16:03:14] <TekniQue> another problem with most manually operated valves is they have a lot of backlash
[16:03:37] <archivist> I think power station valves are a little more responsive and caburator flap valves
[16:03:52] <TekniQue> yes they would be
[16:04:55] <archivist> I had to make a gear for a racing motorcycle throttle, they were snapping the plastic ones
[16:05:24] <TekniQue> I blew a motorcycle throttle valve right off its shaft
[16:05:37] <TekniQue> GSXR1000, with those stupid secondary throttles
[16:05:47] <TekniQue> 120hp shot of nitrous
[16:06:17] <TekniQue> should've removed the secondary throttles
[16:06:26] <TekniQue> because we had a backfire
[16:06:37] <TekniQue> that bent the secondary throttle blade into a U shape
[16:06:52] <archivist> these were for Nortons return to racing
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=gears+cnc+racing
[16:06:52] <TekniQue> suggesting it wasn't open when the nitrous was injected
[16:08:04] <TekniQue> I had a microswitch on the primary throttle shaft
[16:08:15] <TekniQue> to not allow nitrous to be injected unless throttle was fully open
[16:08:34] <TekniQue> but there was no such device on the secondary throttle which is controlled by the ECU
[16:09:28] <archivist> normal fuels over here usually, as we go around bends
[16:10:52] <TekniQue> this was in sand drag racing
[16:12:37] <TekniQue> You can imagine a GSXR1000 with that amount of nitrous is a handful to control
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[16:32:05] <Loetmichel> TekniQue: did you sit on the hndlebar?
[16:32:34] <TekniQue> no, I didn't ride the bike
[16:32:38] <TekniQue> just tuned it
[16:33:02] <TekniQue> but we put in a longer rear fork
[16:33:06] <TekniQue> to keep the front down
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[16:34:48] <norias> hmm
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[16:34:55] <norias> link to the getting started guide
[16:35:02] <norias> 404's
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[16:39:35] <PetefromTn_> you mean swingarm..
[16:41:03] <archivist> they go without the swingarm on drag bikes
[16:41:20] <PetefromTn_> ?
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[16:57:00] <TekniQue> PetefromTn_: yes I suppose
[16:57:16] <TekniQue> we call them forks over here
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[17:00:45] <PetefromTn_> I have a dilemma
[17:01:03] <PetefromTn_> I found TWO motors on ebay that will work great for my lathe retrofit
[17:01:13] <PetefromTn_> spindle motors both 7.5hp
[17:01:18] <PetefromTn_> one is a baldor motor
[17:01:22] <PetefromTn_> one is made by weg
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[17:01:44] <PetefromTn_> the baldor is a little more than half the price of the weg
[17:02:00] <jdh> are those types of motors inverter rated or does it not matter?
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[17:02:03] <PetefromTn_> the weg has a make offer auction
[17:02:09] <PetefromTn_> both are inverter rated
[17:02:18] <PetefromTn_> both will work great for the application
[17:02:29] <PetefromTn_> both will fit the same way and are the same frame size
[17:02:53] <PetefromTn_> trying to decide if I should make an offer the same price as the baldor on the weg
[17:03:05] <PetefromTn_> I know baldor makes a damn fine motor but not really know about weg
[17:03:17] <PetefromTn_> but the weg looks to be in a little bit better shape
[17:03:23] <PetefromTn_> hrmm
[17:05:05] <PetefromTn_> I got an email from the folks at parker servomotors
[17:05:13] <Rab> Difference in shipping cost?
[17:05:24] <PetefromTn_> they were able to send me some information on the original servo spindle motor
[17:05:38] <PetefromTn_> Rab shipping is the same within $2 they are both from the same place
[17:05:50] <PetefromTn_> same state anyway
[17:06:15] <PetefromTn_> apparently even Parker servomotors said that the original motor was kind of an oddball.
[17:06:33] <PetefromTn_> it was a three speed servomotor with three different windings inside it.
[17:06:58] <PetefromTn_> first winding ran up to 1200 rpm second up to 2400 RPM and third maxed at 4200 RPM
[17:07:02] <PetefromTn_> 7.5hp
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[17:07:42] <PetefromTn_> the motor was a 190 frame only 7.5 inches across and square frame
[17:08:02] <PetefromTn_> he said they could not make one for me even if I wanted one LOL
[17:08:33] <jdh> we get single stack nema23 steppers with encoder from them. $1800.
[17:08:38] <PetefromTn_> it is probably an insanely expensive motor to replace anyways and the drive would be similarly expensive
[17:09:16] <PetefromTn_> my main concern was the torque ratings which they could not even tell me what they were..
[17:09:31] <PetefromTn_> he said he would be just guessing based on the motor speed and HP...
[17:09:53] <PetefromTn_> they had no torque curves or other information on the motors
[17:10:26] <PetefromTn_> he did send me 3 .pdf files which are just dimensional and wiring setup type with just basic information
[17:12:00] <PetefromTn_> this at least gives me some idea of pulley ratio
[17:13:09] <PetefromTn_> the original specs of the machine said it spins from zero to 3k RPM so if the motors max speed was 4200 I can assume that the pulley ratio was 1.4-1 or so..
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[18:09:23] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: i wouldnt worry about weg
[18:09:28] <zeeshan> i have 2 weg motors that work flawlessly
[18:09:30] <zeeshan> theyre made in brazil
[18:09:42] <PetefromTn_> Ok thanks nice to hear
[18:10:16] <zeeshan> 3 hp motor on lathe is weg
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[18:10:48] <PetefromTn_> and it works good huh
[18:11:07] <zeeshan> mint
[18:11:13] <zeeshan> my local electrical supplier
[18:11:20] <zeeshan> has a 180 hp weg motor
[18:11:21] <zeeshan> sitting on display haha
[18:11:27] <zeeshan> they use a crane to lift it
[18:11:33] <zeeshan> i get a chuckle out of it
[18:11:40] <zeeshan> because the motor shaft diameter is like 3"
[18:11:58] <PetefromTn_> yeah there are some monstrous electric motors in the world that much is clear
[18:11:59] <zeeshan> it looks exactly like my motor
[18:12:00] <malcom2073> WEG?
[18:12:05] <zeeshan> but literally scaled up
[18:12:50] <zeeshan> you know you made me realize something.
[18:12:58] <zeeshan> when i was doing my .5" doc
[18:13:09] <zeeshan> i didnt change the gearing on the lathe box
[18:13:45] <zeeshan> im pretty sure its currently set to for every 1800 rpm of motor, you get 3600 rpm out
[18:13:45] <PetefromTn_> yup
[18:13:55] <zeeshan> so im losing torque for speed
[18:14:02] <PetefromTn_> there is a LOT of reduction capable in that gear head
[18:24:30] <zeeshan> perte
[18:24:40] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: are you going to build a control from scratch?
[18:24:52] <PetefromTn_> what do you mean?
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[18:26:23] <dr_traktor> Is it possible to map some block ram from a Spartan 6 based Mesa Electronics card to PCIE?
[18:27:44] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: basically what i did
[18:27:50] <zeeshan> power distribution
[18:27:56] <zeeshan> 7i77
[18:28:05] <zeeshan> drives etc
[18:28:10] <zeeshan> does it have a central lubricator?
[18:28:33] <PetefromTn_> well yeah I will be building the entire electronics system for it if that is what you are asking from selected components
[18:28:46] <PetefromTn_> yes it has a one shot oiler system
[18:28:51] <zeeshan> that shit was a nightmare :(
[18:29:12] <PetefromTn_> what do you mean I started from scratch on the Cincinatti and it was not too bad really
[18:29:23] <zeeshan> you retrofittied it
[18:29:28] <zeeshan> not built it from scratch
[18:29:51] <PetefromTn_> I don't understand your difference
[18:30:16] <PetefromTn_> everything in the Cincinatti electronically speaking is brand new of my design with the help of folks here and others
[18:30:40] <zeeshan> i mean determining how you're going to distribute power
[18:30:53] <PetefromTn_> yes that is all brand new too
[18:31:17] <PetefromTn_> I basically gutted the entire electronics cabinet and started froms scratch
[18:31:22] <zeeshan> oh
[18:31:29] <zeeshan> if i were to go back
[18:31:32] <zeeshan> i woulda kept all my original stuff
[18:31:44] <zeeshan> and just figured out where things needed to go
[18:31:46] <PetefromTn_> the only thing that is still original in the machine electronically speaking is the spindle motor
[18:31:52] <zeeshan> rather than trying to figure out "this thing needs x amount of power"
[18:32:01] <pcw_home> dr_traktor: sure, for example the IDROM in hostmot2 configs is a BlockRAM
[18:32:01] <zeeshan> "i need to give it x wire, it needs power from here"
[18:32:09] <zeeshan> "it needs to turn off during e-stop or not"
[18:32:10] <zeeshan> etc
[18:32:17] <zeeshan> that woulda all been done for me
[18:32:29] <zeeshan> and other shit like
[18:32:37] <PetefromTn_> yeah but honestly I think you really love to overdo things hehe
[18:32:39] <zeeshan> "NPN vs PNP spindle encoder!"
[18:32:41] <zeeshan> etc
[18:32:44] <zeeshan> yea well
[18:32:45] <zeeshan> it shows
[18:32:49] <zeeshan> it started in the first go.
[18:32:52] <zeeshan> with now blow ups
[18:32:56] <PetefromTn_> so did mine
[18:32:57] <zeeshan> *no
[18:33:18] <zeeshan> overdoing is better than blowing up a piece of equipment in the process
[18:33:24] <zeeshan> and then having to wait to order another one and waste money
[18:33:30] <zeeshan> plus you get a better understanding of how things work
[18:33:33] <PetefromTn_> the only thing I blew up on mine was quite awhile after I had it running and I was poking around like a dumbass in there lOL
[18:33:43] <zeeshan> and build an intuitive sense of things
[18:33:59] <PetefromTn_> you make it sound like I just threw my machine together..
[18:34:16] <PetefromTn_> believe my we spent a LOT of time researching the components and wiring setup on it...
[18:34:48] <PetefromTn_> just as I am currently researching my new retrofit machine lathe I am trying to determine what is needed to make the machine work properly.
[18:35:37] <zeeshan> sorry if i made it sound like that
[18:35:40] <zeeshan> didn't mean to
[18:36:06] <dr_traktor> pcw_home: thanks, i'll look into it
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[18:37:06] <zeeshan> i just had a headache from figuring that shit out
[18:37:09] <PetefromTn_> It's okay I know you sometimes come off that way without realizing it.
[18:37:21] <zeeshan> it would be so much easier to have followed a manual
[18:37:24] <PetefromTn_> I am quite proud of the work and time we put into my Cincinatti
[18:37:25] <zeeshan> of original wiring
[18:37:41] <PetefromTn_> it works great and has made me some money and continues to do so
[18:37:48] <zeeshan> i had no damn manual :(
[18:38:05] <PetefromTn_> honestly the original manuals I have for the cincinatti were not much use
[18:38:19] <zeeshan> i know when i find a slant bed lathe
[18:38:23] <PetefromTn_> the technology they used then is quite different from what it was replaced with
[18:38:24] <zeeshan> if it doesnt come with a wiring diagram
[18:38:28] <zeeshan> or i cant find one
[18:38:30] <zeeshan> i might pass up on it
[18:38:43] <zeeshan> a retrofit shouldnt take more than a month
[18:39:19] <PetefromTn_> the electronics enclosure was stuffed full of components when I bought the machine now it almost feels naked inside there everything is so much smaller and better in a lot of ways now.
[18:39:57] <PetefromTn_> honestly from the time I received my components and got them all here to the time I actually was able to turn on the machine with three axis control was probably less than two months...
[18:40:29] <PetefromTn_> but we had spend several months going over the wiring scheme and trying to research suitable replacement motors and pouring over specs and speeds and whatnot
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[18:41:36] <PetefromTn_> the lathe will be much easier because I have a working estop setup and basic wiring scheme that we know works now. and it is also just two axis instead of three
[18:41:50] <PetefromTn_> plus at least currently there is no toolchanger on the lathe
[18:42:34] <PetefromTn_> most of the time I have spent on the Cincinatti has come from my lack of understanding of linuxCNC and programming and integrating the various components on the machine.
[18:42:56] <PetefromTn_> Without help from Connor and SSI and PCW and yourself I would be really screwed LOL...
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[18:44:26] <PetefromTn_> right now I am trying to wrap my head around the spindle orient component... that looks like it will be complicated at least to me.
[18:44:48] <zeeshan> how long did your cinci retrofit take?
[18:44:59] <zeeshan> from conception to actually doing it
[18:45:40] <PetefromTn_> well like I said the physical part of putting it together was not too bad but the research has taken a LONG time
[18:45:55] <zeeshan> the physical part took me a month
[18:46:03] <zeeshan> it took a lot longer than i expected
[18:46:15] <zeeshan> like compared to the lathe stepper stuff
[18:46:21] <zeeshan> this thing was like 5x harder
[18:46:22] <zeeshan> lol
[18:46:34] <zeeshan> but without these guys in here
[18:46:41] <zeeshan> i'd still be lost about servo drives/servo interaction
[18:46:49] <zeeshan> they helped clear up a lot of stuff
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[18:46:57] <Sairon_> hmm
[18:46:59] <zeeshan> linuxcnc channel is the best!
[18:47:02] <PetefromTn_> well to give you and Idea I started my build thread on the CNCzone about the machine in may 12th 2012... I took delivery of the machine a couple weeks later
[18:47:03] <Sairon_> yes
[18:47:36] <PetefromTn_> then I TRIED to fix the original control for a couple months spending a great deal of money..
[18:47:46] <PetefromTn_> then I finally gave up on it
[18:47:49] <Sairon_> what sort of machine?
[18:48:01] <PetefromTn_> spent some time trying to find a buyer for the original parts.
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[18:48:23] <PetefromTn_> once I sold off the original parts It took me another couple months to determine the best parts to replace them with
[18:48:43] <PetefromTn_> I have been running the machine making parts/money with it for several months now...
[18:48:55] <PetefromTn_> but the toolchanger is still not fully operational
[18:49:11] <zeeshan> get 'er working!
[18:49:17] <zeeshan> i think you have msot of it done
[18:49:19] <PetefromTn_> believe me I want to
[18:49:20] <zeeshan> but like pcw said
[18:49:29] <zeeshan> you'll need to write a custom tool changing component for hal
[18:49:39] <norias> hmm
[18:49:42] <zeeshan> brush up on programming!
[18:49:50] <PetefromTn_> the reality is that while this stuff is not terribly complicated there is_A_LOT_TO_LEARN
[18:49:56] <norias> do it in HAL
[18:49:59] <norias> or make some hardware?
[18:50:06] <norias> oh, well
[18:50:08] <norias> nevermind
[18:50:12] <norias> what kind of tool changer?
[18:50:35] <PetefromTn_> the machine is equipped with a 21 tool umbrella style carousel toolchanger
[18:51:04] <norias> haas?
[18:51:05] <PetefromTn_> I don't know why we need a custom component
[18:51:34] <PetefromTn_> apparenlty connor has the toolchanger part of the scheme sorted. I just need to get it to orient properly and consistently
[18:51:53] <PetefromTn_> norias It is a 1997 Cincinatti Arrow 500 Vertical Machining Center
[18:53:03] <PetefromTn_> my problem is I am NOT_A_PROGRAMMER_TYPE....and I rely heavily on help from you guys here for this stuff. I try to read and learn but I am in over my head when it comes to the integrator part of the equation..
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[19:01:19] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_:
[19:01:25] <zeeshan> just use that rob h code?
[19:01:29] <zeeshan> and modify it?
[19:01:44] <PetefromTn_> sounds wonderful where do we begin ;)
[19:01:53] <zeeshan> copy and paste! :P
[19:02:28] <PetefromTn_> now which one are you referring to exactly there were several posted by Tom last night
[19:02:43] <zeeshan> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?SpindleOrientation
[19:03:59] <PetefromTn_> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config/emc2hal.html
[19:04:21] <PetefromTn_> it sure would be nice to know what is the most recent and what each branch they were designed for...
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[19:05:45] <PetefromTn_> one thing I am not clear on is the M19 thing.. does M6 use the M19 internally I would much prefer my code to only need the M6 and cutter compensation lines.
[19:05:57] <unfy> here, have great cow basic:
http://gcbasic.sourceforge.net/gcgb-blinkled-small.png
[19:06:25] <zeeshan> unfy: lol what is that
[19:06:37] <zeeshan> cow programming language!
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[19:06:58] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: the second emc2hal page
[19:07:06] <zeeshan> was updated 2015 21st :P
[19:07:15] <zeeshan> robh's was updated 2010
[19:07:26] <PetefromTn_> yes exactly
[19:07:49] <PetefromTn_> the thing that sucks is that Robh has done this a couple times now and in different ways apparenlty
[19:08:01] <PetefromTn_> and he is occasionally available here for help and questions
[19:08:34] <PetefromTn_> and I am not sure if the newer one jibes with what he did and he was able to accomplish pretty much exactly what I need to on a somewhat similar machine.
[19:08:58] <unfy> zee: appears to be a flow chart language
[19:09:10] <PetefromTn_> too small to raed
[19:09:13] <PetefromTn_> read
[19:09:21] <unfy> yeah, i had to zoom way in ._.
[19:09:43] <PetefromTn_> did you download it first?
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[19:10:56] <unfy> no. it appears to be just one of the interfaces for GCB (a PIC/AVR basic ?)
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[19:48:02] <rob_h> yea i never found the time to add the ladder to that. shame realy, im spuriced no one has done a comp for ATCs
[19:48:56] <PetefromTn_> hey rob
[19:48:59] <rob_h> when i did the little CHNC , i wrote a comp for that
[19:49:42] <rob_h> hi pete hows it going
[19:50:08] <PetefromTn_> what are your thoughts on my setup here. I have the Hitachi WJ200-110LF and right now I have modbus spindle control with feedback and can rigid tap. Do you think we can just use some linuxCNC hal changes and get orient working?
[19:51:02] <PetefromTn_> I know you showed in your videos that VMC doing vfd orient only but you said you have since switched to something esle.
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[19:51:54] <rob_h> erm i dont know ur setup very inside and out , so i guess you have an encoder some where for feedback into the VFD and back to linuxcnc
[19:51:55] <PetefromTn_> shit I gotta pickup my kids at school. I will_be_right_back!!
[19:51:59] <rob_h> or just linuxcnc for tapping
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[19:52:13] <rob_h> ok
[19:52:19] <rob_h> to be continued as they say
[19:52:20] <PetefromTn_> the encoder feeds back to linuxcnc
[19:52:27] <PetefromTn_> into the 7i77 card
[19:52:39] <PetefromTn_> I am sorry I did not realize it was so late...
[19:52:45] <Jymmm> THIS IS AMAZING
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZwzY1o_hB5Y
[19:52:54] <PetefromTn_> I will be back in like ten minutes really or so..
[19:53:29] <rob_h> here you go,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9IdZ2pI5dA
[19:53:34] <Loetmichel> *gnah* i HATE that router... whenever it gets interesting wife yells across the house:" MICHEL, WIFI DEAD AGAIN! REBOOT THAT ROUTER NOW!!!!1111"
[19:53:37] <rob_h> now when you make a mistake just laser it back on ;)
[19:54:27] <rob_h> yea some routers wifi is quite bad for being stable
[19:54:39] <tjtr33> Loetmichel, have fun with the Rising Sun lyrics "My mother was a sailor" etc much more annoying to workmates
[19:56:28] <Loetmichel> rob_h problem is that its firmware has a memory leak
[19:56:41] <Loetmichel> every few days you have to reboot it or it will cease to work
[19:57:02] -!- skunkworks has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
[19:57:16] <Loetmichel> first the wifi login, then new connects on the wired lan, then even the old connections.
[19:57:33] <tjtr33> dmg does have the nicest swing-rotab (BCaxis ) wish i could find one with a dead control
[20:00:34] -!- Mark_xx has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[20:02:24] <jdh> consumer grade wifi routers seem to self-destruct after a year or two.
[20:02:34] <PetefromTn_> Okay back again..
[20:02:41] <jdh> hi pete.
[20:02:48] <PetefromTn_> jey Jdh
[20:02:51] -!- TTN [TTN!~TTN@unaffiliated/ttn] has joined #linuxcnc
[20:02:51] <jdh> tell teh little cretins to walk home from school
[20:03:06] <jdh> I mean.... good job for picking up the little sweeties.
[20:03:08] <PetefromTn_> it sure is nice that the school is right around the corner
[20:03:26] <PetefromTn_> I have walked there to pick up my kids several times because it is so close..
[20:03:37] <PetefromTn_> but mostly I just get in the big bronco and cruise over there LOL
[20:03:46] <jdh> cool. Nice day here I've heard.
[20:04:02] <PetefromTn_> rob_h Hey man okay back to the orient stuff LOL
[20:04:27] <PetefromTn_> jdh it is nice here but a bit overcast... cooled down a bit from the last two days that were beautiful and unseasonably warms
[20:05:22] <jdh> 61f and sunny here according to wunderground.
[20:06:27] -!- motioncontrol [motioncontrol!~io@host192-27-dynamic.18-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #linuxcnc
[20:07:31] <rob_h> i think DMG take them back to rebuild if not too old or they always use to
[20:09:08] <rob_h> i see your vfd is listed as sensorless vector only.. does not show or say it can do closed loop vector
[20:10:08] <PetefromTn_> I thought we were closing the loop inside linuxCNC... using the PID component
[20:10:10] <rob_h> so i have no idea how well or if at all it will position , if it does i dout it can hold position too well as it with out closed loop vector you cant get zero speed toque as such
[20:10:36] <rob_h> yea but the VFD with closed vector uses a total different math system. and knows where rotor is and switch's accordingly
[20:10:40] <rob_h> in basic terms
[20:11:20] <rob_h> all linuxcnc was doing as i used it is to command the speed and direction, was a right pain to get working properly
[20:12:18] <rob_h> i dont know of any one doing it with sensorless vector might work, just letting you know its not a said and done thing
[20:12:19] <tjtr33> using gcode or lower level?
[20:12:58] <tjtr33> " to command the speed and direction"
[20:13:05] <rob_h> when needed orient it just enabled the PID and took over the analogue output
[20:13:32] <tjtr33> ah, similar to way i do edm. no not simple
[20:13:33] <PetefromTn_> jeez that does not sound good
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[20:14:00] <rob_h> i think andy did some VFD position stuff not sure what he used tho rember seeing a vid
[20:14:38] <rob_h> depends if your doing sinking or just wire i guess in edm
[20:15:04] <rob_h> our CNC edm sinker seems to always take so much longer than the manual lol.. untill you turn off all its smart side and tell it how to work
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[20:15:47] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQXqge-NLs
[20:16:01] <rob_h> pete i pulled my old VFD i used in the vids and switch it to a yaskawa vfd that does spindle orient in side
[20:16:39] <rob_h> as i was never happy with the HP from the old VFD also.. with yaskawa it seems so much better there is now some HP back in the motor
[20:17:17] <unfy> achtung!
[20:17:42] <PetefromTn_> well I hope mine will work okay.
[20:18:01] <rob_h> do you have to move your Z like that also
[20:18:06] <PetefromTn_> I have not had any issues with horsepower from it but getting it configured was kind of a pain in the...
[20:18:10] <rob_h> i dont think your ATC drops does it
[20:18:10] <PetefromTn_> yes
[20:18:30] <PetefromTn_> unfortunately
[20:18:41] <PetefromTn_> the Z millhead must raise and lower to change tools..
[20:18:42] <rob_h> i guess he used remap
[20:18:48] <PetefromTn_> yes
[20:18:58] <rob_h> wiht out parting the ATC off
[20:19:14] <PetefromTn_> I think we have that part sorted actually but we need to get orient working.
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[20:19:57] <PetefromTn_> it is surprising to me that there have not been more people doing this as this is a quite common machine configuration
[20:21:12] <rob_h> is you have the old spindle drive on a retro then you just fire the orient input,... and wait for finish
[20:21:24] <PetefromTn_> yeah that is not possible
[20:21:44] <rob_h> as for the moving of the Z in a ATC iv not seen many done no
[20:22:06] <PetefromTn_> there are a few Tkamsker is one.....
[20:22:21] <PetefromTn_> like I said I think connor has it sorted out how to do that part
[20:22:32] <PetefromTn_> I just need to get spindle orient working somehow..
[20:23:44] <PetefromTn_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ContributedComponents
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[20:24:54] <rob_h> reading your manual, page 3-117 it shows position mode
[20:27:12] <rob_h> seems the VFD on the BP was sensorless only also so you might get good resolts if you stick at it
[20:28:02] <rob_h> aah manual sais it does not rember positions on turn off so you cant use its built in position mode for what you want todo, as it does not seem to have true encoder feedback support
[20:28:06] <PetefromTn_> yes that appears to be the case
[20:30:17] <PCW> probably need the orient comp. pid comp, and a mux or two
[20:30:42] <PetefromTn_> PCW what are your thoughts...do you think it is doable?
[20:31:20] <rob_h> all his configs are here did you see
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ContributedComponents#Bridgeport_412_ATC_toolchanger_and_configuration
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[20:31:39] <PCW> yeah not sure how well the VFD will work as a servo though, how accurate does the positioning need to be?
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[20:31:46] <_methods> is classic ladder not suitable for recreating the old logic and just copying it?
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[20:32:47] <rob_h> not too acerate just get the dogs into postion and when pocket in ATC comes in it will generly guide its self in
[20:33:11] <rob_h> not like a arm/random which is abit more solid and locked in on the transfer from pocket to pocket
[20:33:25] <PCW> classic ladder is suitable for tool changing, but orient ls analog basically
[20:33:59] <_methods> ahh
[20:34:04] <PetefromTn_> classic ladder apparently as it is now cannot do the Z movements which is why Connor went with the remap
[20:34:30] <_methods> you can't pass a call into/outof classic ladder ?
[20:34:45] <_methods> i honestly don't know i haven't had a chance to mess with it much yet
[20:34:47] <rob_h> it gets too messy with CL
[20:35:21] <rob_h> you can do the logic of the motion yes.. but you need hal todo the work with the feedback commands and position checking
[20:37:09] <rob_h> pete what did you mount on the spindle for encoder feedback then? i made a bracket up for ours and put a encoder ontop of a shaft driven via a belt etc
[20:37:16] <PetefromTn_> PCW how would you recommend I proceed if we are to assume the vfd will work. There is honestly only one way to find out...
[20:37:30] <rob_h> try it and see
[20:37:42] <rob_h> not much to loose as it is :) only some time
[20:37:45] <PetefromTn_> rob_h I machined a custom mount for an optical encoder that goes on the spindle motor
[20:37:57] <PetefromTn_> the spindle motor has a 2-1 ratio to the spindle
[20:38:19] <PetefromTn_> we were able to get a little programming magic to mask the second index pulse
[20:38:30] <PetefromTn_> the machine now rigid taps beautifully
[20:38:39] <rob_h> nice.. so doulbe the ress then too
[20:38:49] <PetefromTn_> yes
[20:39:17] <PetefromTn_> like I said the machine is working quite well and I make parts on it almost daily just using manual toolchange and the power drawbar.
[20:39:21] <rob_h> inside our motors is a gear with a pickup next to it but no index on them
[20:39:40] <rob_h> have get a robot of Ebay ;)
[20:39:44] <rob_h> he can change the parts too
[20:39:58] <rob_h> or she.. what ever you wanna call it
[20:40:09] <PetefromTn_> there is a fellow in UK named Lee who has the exact same machine.
[20:40:36] <rob_h> o ill take atrip and then send u the configs ;)
[20:40:40] <rob_h> the UK is a small place
[20:41:01] <PetefromTn_> he has it working with toolchanger but he fabricated some sort of angular pneumatic solenoid driven wedge that locks the orient for toolchanger
[20:41:15] <rob_h> i tell you there is a heap of cincies in the UK right now 2nd hand
[20:41:26] <PetefromTn_> and he said he was not real happy with the setup as it needed some unordinary code to work
[20:41:40] <PetefromTn_> but it DOES work and has made thousands of toolchanges now.
[20:41:54] <rob_h> yea prob had fanuc or something else on it
[20:41:55] <PetefromTn_> I do not want to have to go that route I am hoping my vfd will take care of it
[20:42:02] <rob_h> here you dont find much other in controls. only the big names
[20:42:16] <PetefromTn_> no he had the original Emerson Control techniques control like mine did..
[20:42:26] <rob_h> oh right quite rare
[20:42:28] <PetefromTn_> and it uses a spindaxx drive
[20:42:43] <PetefromTn_> he also switched it out for a typical vfd.
[20:43:21] <rob_h> yea i mean VFDs have come along quite abit since i played around
[20:43:21] <PetefromTn_> even with the pneumatic solenoid thing you STILL have to get the spindle turned around for orient at least close
[20:44:15] <rob_h> yea same idea like on some our lathes for spindle index for milling.. which is more so for holding position
[20:44:19] <PetefromTn_> I suppose worst case scenario I can take the Hitachi VFD out of the Cincinatti and use it on the CNC lathe I am building if it does not work but I am sincerely hoping it does..
[20:45:01] <PetefromTn_> okay so lets assume it WILL work where would you begin and how?
[20:45:37] <rob_h> im not sure you will do orient in modbus tho i dout it would be fastenuth ? any know better? id say youd have to switch it over to analogue
[20:45:47] <PCW> first I wouls check if low spindle speeds work well
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[20:46:03] <PetefromTn_> PCW how do you mean..
[20:46:05] <rob_h> S10 and below
[20:46:06] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: are you controlling frequency from modbus ?
[20:46:12] <PetefromTn_> I can certainly run slow spindle speed
[20:46:18] <zeeshan> you wont be able to control it
[20:46:19] <PCW> yeah the speed of the feedback loop dictates pretty slow turning
[20:46:25] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan yeah
[20:46:30] <zeeshan> i was testing this yestrerday
[20:46:36] <zeeshan> it only updates every .8 to 1.2 seconds
[20:46:37] <zeeshan> overmodbus
[20:46:50] <zeeshan> but that number depends highly on your computer
[20:47:01] <zeeshan> you have to do time.time() in the code
[20:47:05] <zeeshan> and print it and see what it says
[20:47:06] <rob_h> prob have to tweak the vfd speed loops to get slow speed and position working some what also
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[20:47:45] <PCW> is there a DC brake mode on the VFD?
[20:47:56] <PetefromTn_> I think so
[20:48:07] <PetefromTn_> it also has a braking resistor on it.
[20:48:07] <rob_h> is talk in the manual of it but did not read too much
[20:48:18] <PCW> thats another possibility
[20:48:35] <PCW> +- communication delays
[20:49:07] <rob_h> hopefully the VFD goes to zero volt input
[20:49:11] <PetefromTn_> I originally had it setup with analog control but we switched to modbus so we could have easy spindle load metering etc...
[20:49:13] <rob_h> i know some are funny and do not
[20:49:24] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: you just reconnect your analog stuff
[20:49:26] <zeeshan> 2 wires back
[20:49:30] <zeeshan> leave everythin else modbus
[20:49:46] <rob_h> sometimes there is aparam which tells it what speed reff to use thats all
[20:49:49] <PetefromTn_> I would like to think it is that simple...
[20:50:13] <zeeshan> rob_h: nice machine btw
[20:50:14] <zeeshan> :)
[20:50:26] <rob_h> which one
[20:50:34] <PetefromTn_> rob_h has a lot of nice machines hehe
[20:50:45] <rob_h> yea and when u think you have enuth you go and buy some more
[20:50:52] <rob_h> i have to go and pick one up next week
[20:51:04] <zeeshan> leadwell 540 vmc
[20:51:05] <PetefromTn_> I just got a used CNC lathe I am working on retrofitting
[20:51:13] <rob_h> only a little universal/cylindrical grinder mind you
[20:51:23] <PetefromTn_> nice
[20:51:46] <rob_h> i got the centerless grinder awhile back so now we have the full set
[20:54:33] <rob_h> need a cupa brb
[20:54:36] <PetefromTn_> I'll tell you it really sucks this is so freakin' complicated and out of the box un-ordinary setup. Leave it to me to choose a machine and components that are not typical
[20:55:28] <PetefromTn_> when I bought it I thought all machines were like this umbrella type etc. I mean I am used to HAAS FADAL, CINCINATTI, and many others that use the same setup.
[20:55:28] <rob_h> yea but you chose linuxcnc so got that right.. it can pritty much adapt it any situation :) so flexable
[20:56:11] <PetefromTn_> yeah you are right and I don't regret that decision whatsoever but It does seem overwhelming sometimes for me because I am not a programmer type AT ALL
[20:56:54] <rob_h> i was the same at first way back... my programming skills are copy paste lol apart Gcode mind you ;)
[20:56:58] <PetefromTn_> couple that with I am trying to do this at the most reasonable costs and using the best components I can afford which is not much adding a nice yaskawa drive is pretty much out of the question.
[20:57:58] <PetefromTn_> I just realized something disturbing
[20:58:16] <PetefromTn_> my daughter just handed me her homework spelling words
[20:58:27] <PetefromTn_> and her handwriting is WAY better than mine is hehe
[20:58:43] <PetefromTn_> and she is only 8 years old..
[20:59:05] <roycroft> she's young enough to still care
[20:59:29] <roycroft> and old enough to have the motor skills to do a good job
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[21:01:46] <PetefromTn_> yeah maybe but she handed me her paper and I thought the teacher wrote the words....she was like No daddy I wrote them hehe
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[21:03:38] <PetefromTn_> I am again today without much CNC machine work to do....so I would be open to trying to implement the orient COmp PID comp and a mux or two
[21:04:39] <rob_h> well first thing todo is swop the VFD back to analogue get it working on tht
[21:04:53] <rob_h> and then go about adding all the PID etc
[21:04:58] <PetefromTn_> you are sure that is necessary then
[21:05:10] <rob_h> modbus aint going to be your friend here
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[21:05:38] <rob_h> can keep mobus for the status reading etc like you have now just change of the command side of things
[21:05:48] <roycroft> but you can still program that cnc controller better than she can
[21:05:54] <roycroft> so enjoy that while you can
[21:06:04] <PetefromTn_> doubtful heh
[21:06:07] <roycroft> 'cuz by the time she's 10 she'll probably be able to outcode you
[21:06:24] <PetefromTn_> that would not be hard I SUCK at that sort of thing.
[21:06:31] <roycroft> then you can join the worthless old fart club
[21:06:37] <roycroft> i'll save you a seat next to mine
[21:06:40] <rob_h> lol
[21:06:45] <PetefromTn_> already carry a card
[21:06:47] <rob_h> well you can get her todo all your trig ;)
[21:07:54] <rob_h> looks like in your hal someone was nice and left the comment on the spindle stuff
[21:08:09] <PetefromTn_> ?
[21:08:22] <PetefromTn_> oh you still have my hal from the other night huh
[21:08:51] <rob_h> #net spindle-vel-cmd => hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogout5
[21:08:51] <rob_h> net spindle-vel-cmd => scale.spindle.in
[21:08:51] <rob_h> net spindle-frequency-command scale.spindle.out <= wj200-vfd.0.commanded-frequency
[21:08:51] <rob_h> #net machine-is-enabled => hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.spinena
[21:08:51] <rob_h> net machine-is-enabled => wj200-vfd.0.enable
[21:09:08] <rob_h> yea i had it saved on my PC
[21:09:35] <rob_h> i wonder if the wires are still in it...
[21:09:40] <PetefromTn_> so it is possible to keep the modbus stuff and run analog control of the VFD I thought the two were incompatible
[21:09:45] <rob_h> i cant quite see from here tho so if youd like todo the honour
[21:10:00] <PetefromTn_> no I removed the wiring long ago
[21:10:03] <Deejay> gn8
[21:10:07] <PetefromTn_> so I would have to redo it.
[21:10:10] <rob_h> aah ok
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[21:10:52] <PetefromTn_> Lemme go out there and warm up the shop and fire up the machine and I will see about trying to get it hooked back up. I will have to look in the manual again and see what pins I used.
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[21:12:43] <rob_h> ok, this should do it
[21:12:44] <rob_h> http://pastebin.com/kmNBALc3
[21:13:32] <PetefromTn_> wow thanks
[21:13:42] <PetefromTn_> what exactly did you change
[21:14:15] <PetefromTn_> just un commented
[21:14:23] <rob_h> i told it not to putpu tthe commands to the VFD modbus , put it out onto the analog output
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[21:16:22] <PetefromTn_> I gotta check output 5 we may have switched it to something else now
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[21:17:17] <rob_h> it still has the scale settings active in the hal for that
[21:17:40] <PetefromTn_> does that control fwd and rev too? I am trying to remember how it used to work
[21:17:55] <rob_h> yea should be a +/- 10v sig
[21:18:02] <rob_h> which determins direction
[21:18:10] <PetefromTn_> ok
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[21:22:36] <PetefromTn_> trying to determine what pins on the intelligent terminal were used for the inputs in the manual right now
[21:25:27] <rob_h> on the vfd?
[21:25:42] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[21:25:58] <PetefromTn_> freakin manual is huge
[21:26:46] <PetefromTn_> page 4=87 seems to be close
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[21:28:05] <rob_h> o and L then
[21:28:16] <PetefromTn_> yeah I think so
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[21:31:00] <rob_h> oh intresting it only does 0 - 10v and not - you have to tell it direction
[21:32:29] <PetefromTn_> I thought there was more than two wires to it before..
[21:32:48] <PetefromTn_> it says to use a shielded twisted pair set
[21:32:50] <rob_h> #net spindle-cw hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.output-02 <= motion.spindle-forward & #net spindle-ccw hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.output-01 <= motion.spindle-reverse
[21:33:15] <PetefromTn_> jeez man you know my machine better than I do
[21:33:18] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[21:34:06] <PetefromTn_> so it was output 1,2, and 5
[21:34:24] <rob_h> becomes
[21:34:24] <rob_h> http://pastebin.com/yYMCSFNz
[21:34:41] <rob_h> yes
[21:34:52] <PetefromTn_> how do you do that so fast?
[21:35:04] <rob_h> lots of english Tea
[21:35:37] <PetefromTn_> so we need three wires and a ground
[21:36:08] <PetefromTn_> it says they all need to be grounded to the ground pin and shielding grounded to that pin also is that what you see.
[21:36:22] <rob_h> yea
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[21:37:38] <PetefromTn_> ok outputs 0,1,and 5 are on the top right of the card.
[21:38:02] <rob_h> i dont know cant find that page
[21:38:17] <rob_h> PDF not so easy to flick pages
[21:38:55] <rob_h> analog has to be shilided wire... shild to the ground and ground/0v to same
[21:39:15] <rob_h> then + to the o
[21:40:32] <rob_h> page 3-90 ment to have the tereminals i think?
[21:42:54] <PetefromTn_> trying to find a suitable cable to use in my box of schtuff
[21:43:54] <PetefromTn_> I have a little piece of the spindle encoder cabling but it has a LOT more wires in it...kinda overkill and fat
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[21:52:30] <PetefromTn_> Ok I found a nice little four wire shielded but it is not twisted pair...
[21:53:07] <PetefromTn_> it is the same type of wire I am using for the modbus control that is still hooked up to the vfd.
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[21:55:59] <PetefromTn_> I do not see anywhere in the manual where it says it must be twisted pair but I thought I just read that heh
[21:56:07] <PetefromTn_> This is a shielded cable tho
[21:56:44] <rob_h> be fine
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[21:59:10] <PetefromTn_> Ok gonna start stripping it and getting it hooked up here
[21:59:13] <PetefromTn_> stdby
[22:04:13] <bobo_> 4 minutes and counting
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[22:06:57] <PetefromTn_> there is no hurrying when it comes to the precious...
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[22:08:39] <bobo_> OK then some very good photos of the BEFORE
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[22:10:54] <PetefromTn_> GOD I HATE these little tiny freakin' terminals
[22:11:58] <rob_h> finding the right screw driver is a pain
[22:14:55] <PetefromTn_> yeah actually this is a push in type where you use a jewelers screwdriver flathead and stick it in the little plastic hole and push the tab in that opens the hole and then you insert the wire. trouble is I already have the modbus ground wire in there and they both dont want to fit..
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[22:19:49] <bobo_> more stand by time before finally getting sodering iron out --finding snall solid wire --burnt finger stuff --etc
[22:20:58] <PetefromTn_> okay man I get the point hehe I managed to get the three little wires into the one tiny hole. two grounds one for the modbus and the other for the analog input as well as the shielding wire'
[22:21:29] <PetefromTn_> now I just gotta figure out which terminals are for fwd and rev and analog input which is zero or O I think it was.
[22:22:05] <PetefromTn_> gonna make red the voltage input for speed.
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[22:27:28] <PetefromTn_> page 4-31 says something about a 3 wire method but that is apparently for contactor switch type use
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[22:33:18] <PetefromTn_> well I can't seem to figure out which terminals to use for the fwd and reverse on the drive
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[22:50:18] <rob_h> you need the pin outs for the mesa card , you must have something that says what is what
[22:50:26] <rob_h> pinout file or something
[22:50:51] <Tom_itx> dmesg will tell
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[22:54:16] <PetefromTn_> no I am not sure which of the intelligent terminals on the Hitachi I need to hook the wires to.
[22:54:37] <PetefromTn_> I know gnd is L and O is voltage in but it is the fwd and rev I cannot figure out.
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[23:14:34] <Tom_itx> PetefromTn_ if there are just two left flip a coin
[23:16:53] <PetefromTn_> I tell you what guys... I am gonna tentatively give up until after dinner....this freakin' Hitachi manual is the most confusing thing I have ever seen sorry.
[23:18:11] <PetefromTn_> there are a BUNCH of terminals on there and I already have the ground and voltage input hooked up but no idea what to do with the fwd and rev wire inputs. I will try looking at it again after I make some dinner and eat. thanks guys
[23:19:04] <Tom_itx> pdf?
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[23:23:58] <PetefromTn_> http://www.clrwtr.com/PDF/Hitachi/Hitachi-WJ200-User-Manual.pdf sorry
[23:24:03] <PetefromTn_> BBL
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[23:53:55] <Tom_itx> FW & RV
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[23:55:15] <Tom_itx> P.166
[23:57:04] <Tom_itx> P.213
[23:57:22] <Tom_itx> P219
