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[00:01:32] <_methods> i guess 20ga in kinda small
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[00:09:17] <SpeedEvil> _methods: I want a thermal impedence probe. That is - stick it in - measure the temperature, apply a .05W heater, and measure the rate of temperature increase and the peak
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[00:09:27] <SpeedEvil> To measure thermal insulation properties
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[00:50:54] <Connor> Man, RVing in the Winter SUCKS!!! :(
[00:52:49] <LeelooMinai> It's better than sleeping in a tent
[00:53:27] <_methods> or a dead ton-ton
[00:54:00] <PCW> Connor: is it you that got molded out of your house?
[00:54:03] <PetefromTn_> You're Ton ton will freeze before you reach the first marker.....Then I'll see you in HELL!!
[00:54:12] <_methods> hehe
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[00:54:22] <Connor> Yea. Really hard on the Wife (having fibromyalgia and all)
[00:54:38] <Connor> PCW Yea. In week 2 of RV hell while they're working on it.
[00:54:48] <PCW> Sorry sounds like a trial
[00:55:18] <Connor> They were not able to do anything Friday because too cold and nothing yesterday because of the Rain. (Soda blasting requires dry, non-freezing conditions)
[00:55:53] <Connor> Yea. We had 6 years left on the house, but, this is going to set us back another 10 years.
[00:55:55] <PetefromTn_> that sux
[00:56:00] <Connor> over 30k worth of damage.
[00:56:21] <_methods> wow that's horrible
[00:56:32] <_methods> and i'm sure insurance won't cover shit
[00:56:39] <Connor> not a dime.
[00:56:41] <_methods> i'm so glad i pay for that worthless stuff
[00:56:46] <Tom_itx> PCW, are those jtag boards smt or thru hole?
[00:57:05] <Tom_itx> i have an old schematic here for one somewhere...
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[00:58:27] <Connor> So, whats up in linuxcnc world? :)
[00:58:46] <PetefromTn_> well I think I found my dog!?
[00:58:56] <Connor> PetefromTn_: That's good.
[00:59:32] <PetefromTn_> sure as hell is.... lady found him this afternoon and took him to a local pet spa until tomorrow morning.
[01:00:05] <Connor> Oh Good deal.
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[01:01:57] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/GHz1Qxy.jpg Also made this prototype Protective Lower intake Manifold Cover for the RX7 guys yesterday.. Seemed to fit perfect LOL
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[01:02:34] <_methods> nice
[01:02:55] <_methods> looks like a wwf belt
[01:03:08] <PetefromTn_> thanks man I designed it from a photo of the original LIM gasket...
[01:03:33] <PetefromTn_> I kinda thought it looked like a BATARANG!!
[01:03:38] <_methods> i hate machining thin shit like that
[01:03:51] <PetefromTn_> yeah it's kind of a bitch
[01:03:52] <_methods> chattery ass nightmare
[01:04:16] <PetefromTn_> I told the customer if they want them they need to order in QUANTITY and I figure I will make a nice little vacuum hold down fixture for making them.
[01:04:43] <_methods> or get them lasered out and engrave them later
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[01:05:34] <PetefromTn_> naah the cutting was real quick and easy this is the kind of thing I can make some decent money on in reasonable volumes... I would make the fixture to hold like four or five at a time.
[01:06:24] <_methods> right on
[01:07:02] <PetefromTn_> when I was over there they were dyno testing a big turbo RX7 and DAMN was that thing sounding badass....
[01:08:16] <_methods> i got a tuner shop next to my place they drive me nuts comin over asking for stupid custom one off stuff
[01:08:42] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know right.. At least these guys are aiming for more production pieces...
[01:08:45] <_methods> they never want to pay for it either
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[01:08:55] <PetefromTn_> Did you see my small run of battery trays?
[01:09:02] <_methods> i wouldn't mind if they would bring me a real print
[01:09:15] <_methods> but they come over with a damn part and say make this
[01:09:26] <PetefromTn_> hehe I hear that these guys basically need me to design everything.
[01:09:30] <_methods> i think so but not sure
[01:10:19] <Jymmm> _methods: You just have to star having them pay in advance, or 50% down, 50% on completion
[01:10:26] <PetefromTn_> right now we are working on another item that will need to be 3d designed and prototyped I am supposed to go over there at the end of the week and work with them on getting the particulars ironed out.
[01:10:29] <_methods> i love doing prototype stuff but no one ever wants to pay
[01:10:50] <_methods> we always end up eating tons of R&D
[01:10:52] <PetefromTn_> Actually everything I have made for them so far they paid 100% in advance believe it or not.
[01:11:17] <_methods> well i think that they call that a good customer
[01:11:21] <_methods> so i'd keep them lol
[01:11:33] <PetefromTn_> I WISH I could get this damn CNC lathe up and running they have a bunch of parts they want turned
[01:11:39] <Jymmm> _methods: and DOUBLE your normal price too
[01:11:47] <PetefromTn_> LOL yeah I like the guys too they are pretty cool
[01:12:14] <PetefromTn_> the cars they are building are kickass.... I drool like crazy over there it's like a candy store
[01:12:29] <Jymmm> _methods: Either you'll start getting paid, or they'll stop leeching =)
[01:12:37] <_methods> yeah
[01:14:39] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4845929078.html
[01:15:24] <_methods> lol
[01:15:29] <_methods> $50?
[01:15:45] <_methods> no plasma cutter lol
[01:16:00] <_methods> but you can have the shitty table lol
[01:16:23] <PetefromTn_> yeah and for the low low price of only $6k
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[01:17:03] <_methods> gotta go to atlanta on thursday and get that granite surface plate
[01:17:11] <_methods> 4'x8'x16" lol
[01:17:16] <PetefromTn_> better limber up heh
[01:17:18] <_methods> yeah
[01:17:24] <malcom2073> Woohoo, my 2600mm THK rails arrived
[01:17:26] <_methods> i got 2 lista cabinets for $50/ea
[01:17:42] <PetefromTn_> where's my $50.00 fourth axis dude?!
[01:17:44] <_methods> they bid the vidmars up and everyone ignored the listas
[01:17:59] <_methods> i'm watchin for you
[01:18:10] <malcom2073> Course... now I don't need the damn rails for a while :/
[01:18:12] <_methods> but i've been in hell all this week with this paint catastrophe
[01:18:39] <PetefromTn_> ?
[01:18:56] <_methods> 4 pallets of parts came back with paint chippin off
[01:19:03] <_methods> about $50k worth of stuff
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[01:19:18] <PetefromTn_> machined part you made?
[01:19:18] <_methods> but it's holding up like 3 p.o.'s for quailty
[01:19:22] <_methods> so it's more like $200k
[01:19:31] <_methods> quality even
[01:19:36] <_methods> yeah the parts are fine
[01:19:41] <_methods> it's the damn paint
[01:19:50] <_methods> our painter is a maroon
[01:19:53] <PetefromTn_> shoulda coated em
[01:20:02] <_methods> they're carc'd
[01:20:28] <_methods> something was contaminated
[01:20:42] <PetefromTn_> easy to do with paint
[01:20:43] <_methods> his air compressor died and the moron used a diesel compressor
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[01:21:27] <_methods> he had the nerve to call askin for money today too lol
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[01:22:54] <PetefromTn_> well that much screw up can maybe put a small shop under quick
[01:23:00] <_methods> yeah
[01:23:07] <_methods> hell we may not make it
[01:23:14] <_methods> he's definitely gone
[01:23:22] <_methods> after we back charge his ass
[01:23:38] <PetefromTn_> does not sound like fun
[01:23:41] <_methods> we gotta get it all blasted and repainted
[01:24:01] <_methods> and the aluminum parts wont' survive blasting
[01:24:05] <_methods> so we gotta remake all them
[01:24:16] <_methods> which is about 1000 parts lol
[01:24:22] <malcom2073> Damn
[01:24:27] <malcom2073> that's a hell of a mess :/
[01:24:36] <_methods> yeah
[01:24:38] <_methods> it sux
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[01:25:50] <PetefromTn_> what sort of parts are they if you can say?
[01:26:01] <_methods> a bunch of diff brackets
[01:26:07] <_methods> nothing crazy
[01:26:10] <_methods> all sheet metal
[01:26:33] <_methods> but a lot of them have pems in them
[01:26:43] <XXCoder> 1k parts remade damn
[01:26:53] <_methods> probably about 400 parts had 8pems+ each
[01:26:57] <XXCoder> parts mats may be cheap bu8t its labor
[01:27:06] <PetefromTn_> how much time in the 1k parts?
[01:27:08] <_methods> but we may be able to save them
[01:27:08] <XXCoder> labor is worth 75% by time its ready to paint
[01:27:11] <_methods> oh man a lot
[01:27:23] <_methods> laser, brake, pems
[01:27:33] <XXCoder> 75% is a guess, likely more
[01:27:33] <_methods> luckily none of them are weld
[01:27:41] <XXCoder> _methods: what about chemical dissolve
[01:27:50] <PetefromTn_> soda blast?
[01:27:55] <XXCoder> alum is p0retty good on acid resistant
[01:28:00] <XXCoder> coke heh
[01:28:07] <_methods> they're all carc'd
[01:28:19] <XXCoder> carc'd?
[01:28:30] <_methods> carc paint
[01:28:35] <_methods> chemical resistant
[01:28:44] <_methods> nuclear biological chemical
[01:28:58] <XXCoder> ohhh
[01:29:03] <XXCoder> tough
[01:29:16] <_methods> yeah 2 part epoxy/polyester
[01:29:36] <_methods> it's a decent clusterfuck
[01:29:59] <_methods> i did about that many parts one time that all got welded and anodized
[01:30:07] <_methods> and the welders used the wrong rods
[01:30:15] <_methods> hehe parts with all kinds of labor in them
[01:30:17] <XXCoder> careful on handling though its illegal to charge workers for damage say
[01:30:20] <_methods> come back from anodize
[01:30:29] <_methods> and all the welds are a totally diff color
[01:30:46] <_methods> oh we subbed this out
[01:30:49] <_methods> we don't paint
[01:31:10] <_methods> that was a real disaster with the anodize
[01:31:30] <_methods> hardcoat black anodize lol
[01:32:41] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/TTYNFOK.jpg http://i.imgur.com/LgNBd5E.jpg
[01:33:02] <XXCoder> nice job but not sure what it is
[01:33:12] <jdh> battery holder?
[01:33:22] <XXCoder> might be
[01:33:47] <PetefromTn_> yeah it is a custom battery tray that houses a very small car battery
[01:33:56] <_methods> yeah pretty
[01:34:21] <PetefromTn_> not bad..
[01:34:22] <jdh> how long for the engraving?
[01:34:37] <PetefromTn_> the engraving on each plate takes like a minute or three
[01:34:59] <jdh> looks cool
[01:35:03] <PetefromTn_> thanks
[01:35:27] <PetefromTn_> I worked hard on the them and they are now finally selling some so I will probably be making more once these are gone.
[01:35:39] <XXCoder> nice
[01:35:47] <XXCoder> dammit I need my own machine
[01:35:55] <PetefromTn_> To give an idea of size the top plate and bottom plate are the same size and are like 6.375x9.5"
[01:35:55] <XXCoder> im too lazy to work on mine :(
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[01:36:10] <zeeshan> how much pete
[01:36:17] <_methods> pete you want a 12" hrt 310?
[01:36:17] <jdh> you need a cnc lathe with bar feeder for the supports
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[01:36:45] <PetefromTn_> LOL actually I machined the supports/standoffs vertically in the mill and rigid tapped the 3/8-16 holes
[01:36:54] <PetefromTn_> but yeah a CNC lathe is COMIN'
[01:37:27] <XXCoder> whiloe tour I saw this weird hack - handdrill redesigned into a cnc tool
[01:37:39] <XXCoder> apparently it turns as needed so it can do 90 degree drills
[01:37:40] <PetefromTn_> Zeeshan not sure what they sell them for but if you really want one I will make you one for my price to them probably.
[01:37:44] <XXCoder> its seperately powered
[01:37:56] <XXCoder> 3 axis cnc
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[01:38:02] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: just curious :)
[01:38:08] <PetefromTn_> ah
[01:38:10] <zeeshan> those like 200$ batterty covers!
[01:38:16] <zeeshan> looks great
[01:38:39] <zeeshan> but if its for a custom application
[01:38:42] <zeeshan> you can probably get more money?
[01:39:10] <zeeshan> ahve you seen the ones on the market?
[01:39:25] <PetefromTn_> yeah I am sure they probably are... LOL but they do look real nice.. These are only custom in that they have their name on them they could fit in almost any car. The other version was designed to fit in the stock RX7 Gen3 FD location...
[01:40:27] <PetefromTn_> there are some for the Optima batteries I saw that were quite reasonably priced. Probably made in bulk in China... but this is MUCH much smaller than those.
[01:40:28] <zeeshan> the ones ive seen are flimsy pos -- but are billet too
[01:40:32] <zeeshan> yours is nice
[01:40:47] <XXCoder> usa made nice.
[01:41:09] <PetefromTn_> Oh let me tell you these are STOUT! They were designed to stand up to hard cornering and house the battery snugly and solidly...
[01:41:11] <jdh> $375 for tray and battery
[01:41:24] <zeeshan> http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/ml9vyi6ARstc-oTQIUji1Eg.jpg
[01:41:27] <zeeshan> im talking about those
[01:41:29] <zeeshan> they are like 70$
[01:41:33] <zeeshan> and a royal piece of ..
[01:42:33] <XXCoder> HMMM
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CNC-router-kit-metal-milling-machine-metal-engraving-machine-3050116C/32262332104.html
[01:43:10] <XXCoder> tiny though lol
[01:43:15] <CaptHindsight> it's sooo cute!
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[01:44:31] <CaptHindsight> what is the knob for on the back of one of the stepper motors?
[01:45:02] <CaptHindsight> I see two with knobs and dials
[01:45:07] <XXCoder> manual im sure
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[01:45:49] <CaptHindsight> looks like Acme screws
[01:46:42] <PetefromTn_> zeeshan Yeah that looks like a kinda flimsy sheetmetal thing.
[01:48:03] <CaptHindsight> good for milling custom chocolates
[01:48:16] <XXCoder> I bet yeah lol
[01:49:10] <CaptHindsight> the Chocomill-o-matic
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[01:49:51] <CaptHindsight> stands up to the toughest darks, milk and even nut filled chocolates
[01:50:35] <_methods> heheh
[01:51:21] <PetefromTn_> I saw a thing recently where a guy used a little CNC router to make a chocolate MOLD for custom candy making that was kinda cool.
[01:52:14] <CaptHindsight> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Mini-cnc-milling-machine-kit-D1-S-DIY-cnc-router-machine-3d-wood-carving-machines-3050115C/32261893250.html looks like this one comes without any of those pesky motors that just burn out
[01:52:49] <PetefromTn_> that thing looks like a miniature
[01:53:17] <CaptHindsight> converts any cheese slices into swiss in seconds
[01:53:57] <PetefromTn_> it slices......it dices........it juliennes!
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[01:54:25] <SpeedEvil> I was actually considering making a CNC breadmachine earlier
[01:54:40] <SpeedEvil> As the ones I can find have totally stupid pans designed to fail.
[01:54:59] <SpeedEvil> And annoy me every time as I can't get the paddle out of the loaf cleanly
[01:55:01] <zeeshan> experts i need this clarified again
[01:55:16] <zeeshan> if you're working on shady electrical components with likely a 220vac to metal case short, and the metal case might be improperly grounded
[01:55:18] <PetefromTn_> operator error heh
[01:55:33] <zeeshan> do you guys as a safety check measure voltage between metal case and your body part with a mutimeter first?
[01:55:42] <zeeshan> same goes for say a neutral bus bar and your body
[01:55:45] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: NO
[01:55:55] <_methods> only if you want to be one with the metal
[01:56:07] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: your body is at a poorly defined voltage, possibly not well connected to anything
[01:56:16] <zeeshan> whats a good way to check
[01:56:19] <SpeedEvil> you care most about the voltage of the metal relative to adjacent metal
[01:56:35] <zeeshan> measure voltage between metal case and a known good ground?
[01:56:44] <CaptHindsight> well if it is a hot case or chassis then it won't be grounded
[01:56:48] <SpeedEvil> Step 0.
[01:56:56] <CaptHindsight> if that's the design intent
[01:56:57] <SpeedEvil> Turn off the electricity, do a ground test
[01:57:29] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i dont see why probing between case and your body
[01:57:34] <zeeshan> will shock you
[01:57:47] <zeeshan> hold red probe of multimeter to case
[01:57:54] <zeeshan> hold black to your body
[01:58:00] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: what body part do you have touching or protruding into the case?
[01:58:07] <zeeshan> not using autoranging
[01:58:17] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: not for cnc
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[01:58:40] <zeeshan> i need tro test 3 things tomorrow suction pump, xray and compressor
[01:58:45] <zeeshan> all from unknown origins
[02:00:33] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it won't shock you
[02:00:38] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: that's the problem
[02:00:43] <zeeshan> whoops wrong chan
[02:00:47] <zeeshan> how do you do the ground test
[02:00:51] <zeeshan> i wanna make sure its what i have in mind
[02:01:26] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: if you are not well connected to ground, and you measure from your body to ground, you might get 10V. If you touch a hot machine, and actual ground (which would have measured 100VAC to ground - you may die.
[02:01:51] <SpeedEvil> Actual gloves are a reasonable precaution.
[02:02:11] <SpeedEvil> Some means of measuring from a known good ground connection in the building to the case of the machine
[02:02:31] <zeeshan> so ground in wall outlet
[02:02:42] <zeeshan> to case
[02:02:53] <zeeshan> with the plug disconnected
[02:02:59] <zeeshan> that doesnt make sense in my head lol
[02:03:42] <zeeshan> but yea i understand your concern.
[02:03:58] <zeeshan> where i am standing might have an influence on the return part of ground
[02:05:03] <SpeedEvil> Err - no - with the ground connected
[02:05:16] <zeeshan> that just tests ground is working
[02:05:20] <SpeedEvil> if you do that - you need to actually measure the ground on the outlet
[02:05:28] <SpeedEvil> that's OK too
[02:05:42] <SpeedEvil> but you then need to test the connection from the plug to the machine
[02:05:44] <zeeshan> how can i probe for short circuit
[02:05:50] <SpeedEvil> measure resistance
[02:05:52] <zeeshan> the only way i can think of is measureing the resistance
[02:05:52] <zeeshan> yea
[02:05:59] <zeeshan> between 1 live lead to chassis
[02:06:03] <zeeshan> if there is continuity, we have an issue.
[02:06:08] <SpeedEvil> that too
[02:06:15] <zeeshan> but see in a 110vac thats a bit misleading
[02:06:21] <zeeshan> i found this out the otehr day when testing my breaker panel
[02:06:42] <zeeshan> if you have 110vac device connected to the wall and you try to measure resistance between l1 at the terminal bus bar
[02:06:44] <zeeshan> to ground
[02:06:50] <zeeshan> you'll measure resistance.
[02:07:02] <zeeshan> it's making a return path all the way through the device, back the neutral
[02:07:10] <zeeshan> and bonded at ground at the panel
[02:07:41] <zeeshan> i'm just trying to come up with a procedure that works in most cases
[02:07:56] <zeeshan> 1. measure resistance between known hot lead and metal chasis of LOAD disconnected from wall
[02:08:02] <zeeshan> (obviously, you will blow up your meter)
[02:08:09] <zeeshan> if you try to connect it to a live load.
[02:08:18] <zeeshan> 2. measure neutral to case.
[02:08:51] <zeeshan> 3. turn of branch breaker, plug in device to wall. measure resistance between known good earth and case to ensure return path to earth
[02:09:07] <zeeshan> i think if you follow these 3 steps, you should never get shocked
[02:09:27] <zeeshan> ps. i hate working on shady used components :/
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[02:09:53] <cpresser> laser ftw:
http://imgur.com/a/JmoYv
[02:10:11] <zeeshan> wow thats cool
[02:10:30] <malcom2073> That reminds me, I saw a $500 version of the $700 bluebox chinese special the other day
[02:10:46] <malcom2073> Wow, that is really cool
[02:10:59] <zeeshan> people who work on smt electronics amaze me
[02:12:03] <zeeshan> i found a fault with my 3 step procedure
[02:12:04] <cpresser> a microscope does help a lot. at least for jobs like this one
[02:12:08] <zeeshan> it does not test insulation.
[02:12:12] <zeeshan> :-(
[02:12:37] <zeeshan> cpresser: did you do that yourself?
[02:13:08] <PetefromTn_> http://i.imgur.com/uQL8pMi.jpg Nice pic of my dog that scared us running away today that my wife took back in the summer. We got him back tho... crazy dog.
[02:14:42] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-5-hp-electric-motor-213t-or-213tc-1800-rpm-severe-duty-two-year-warranty/271615655871?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27673%26meid%3Dfb42a983a4684154930f91482595214f%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D4%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D161411123169&rt=nc I need one of these for like half price LOL...
[02:16:33] <cpresser> zeeshan: yes, just an hour ago
[02:16:52] <cpresser> zeeshan: but i am also the person which fucked it up in the first place :D
[02:17:09] <jdh> what did you do to it?
[02:17:48] <_methods> he broke it
[02:17:56] <_methods> lol
[02:19:14] <cpresser> solder with 450°Celsius. because i didnt look at the setting on the iron
[02:20:09] <cpresser> that did delaimate some pads, so i had to work around that
[02:21:05] <_methods> well that is one impressive fix
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[02:21:48] <jdh> yep
[02:22:33] <_methods> you sir are an electrical god
[02:22:47] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tsudakoma-4th-Axis-Rotary-Table-/251686632028?pt=BI_Tool_Work_Holding&hash=item3a99b13a5c NICE,,
[02:23:11] <zeeshan> cpresser that is very impressive man.
[02:23:12] <_methods> way too clean
[02:23:15] <_methods> that scares me
[02:24:02] <_methods> but for that price screw it
[02:26:13] <jdh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/261728258693
[02:26:17] <PetefromTn_> too clean?
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[02:26:53] <XXCoder> cleaned to hide extreme damage
[02:26:57] <_methods> yeah clean paint lol
[02:27:07] <XXCoder> like brust oil hoses or something
[02:27:28] <PetefromTn_> heh still it looks nice.
[02:27:30] <zeeshan> honestly i dont like these lathes
[02:27:42] <zeeshan> they dont have the center to center distance
[02:27:51] <zeeshan> theyre good if youre making little stuff
[02:28:03] <PetefromTn_> a lot of turning centers are like that.
[02:28:08] <zeeshan> yea man
[02:28:16] <zeeshan> its hard to find one with a 36" c-c even
[02:28:19] <PetefromTn_> only the big ones usually have tailstocks and long Z travels
[02:28:23] <zeeshan> yea!
[02:28:25] <jdh> it's $800, who cares.
[02:28:29] <zeeshan> daewoo makes one
[02:28:32] <PetefromTn_> which is why I chose the lathe I did..
[02:28:33] <_methods> puma
[02:28:36] <_methods> puma is a good lathe
[02:28:42] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: yea your lathe is good
[02:28:52] <zeeshan> but problem with your lathe is its not slantbed
[02:28:53] <PetefromTn_> its okay for what I need to do with it.
[02:29:02] <zeeshan> so it limits the ATC options
[02:29:06] <PetefromTn_> I got a floor jack
[02:29:10] <_methods> daewoo/doosan makes great lathes
[02:29:17] <zeeshan> _methods: really?
[02:29:24] <_methods> they used to do the castings for okuma and stole all their designs lol
[02:29:36] <PetefromTn_> I will be adding a cross slide mounted toolchanger at some point.
[02:29:39] <XXCoder> make a huge lathe or something lol
[02:29:41] <_methods> japan outsourced all their castings to korea back in the day
[02:29:54] <_methods> and they ripped all of okuma's designs lol
[02:30:43] <_methods> so if you get a daewoo/doosan you're basically getting an okuma with a fanuc controller on it
[02:30:51] <_methods> instead of the fancy okuma controller
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[02:31:34] <zeeshan> after seeing ssi's dealings with fanuc
[02:31:42] <zeeshan> they seem hard to retrofit
[02:32:20] <zeeshan> http://www.kijiji.ca/v-buy-sell-other/mississauga-peel-region/emcoturn-340-cnc-lathe/1038272981?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
[02:32:22] <zeeshan> i was looking at this
[02:32:32] <zeeshan> i dont see how this small lathe has a 30" distance between centers
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[02:33:57] <_methods> it probably does without that collet chuck in there
[02:34:35] <_methods> and i'd bet they are measuring to the spindle face without chuck or something cheesey like that
[02:34:41] <zeeshan> yea
[02:34:45] <zeeshan> it doesnt seem that big
[02:34:52] <zeeshan> that almost looks as big as the machine jdh posted
[02:35:20] <_methods> for $800 that old mazak isn't bad
[02:35:31] <_methods> i may hate mazatrol but they do actually make solid machines
[02:39:04] <zeeshan> _methods: are you a cnc machinist
[02:39:09] <_methods> yeah
[02:39:17] <zeeshan> youve ran various machines :)
[02:39:29] <zeeshan> i only have experience with sinumerik and fanuc i series control
[02:39:37] <PetefromTn_> the last shop I worked in had a large mazak lathe and it was pretty nice...
[02:39:42] <_methods> i've ran alot of diff machines
[02:40:02] <zeeshan> i was an "operations technician"
[02:40:11] <zeeshan> had to fix those machines reading manuals that were huge
[02:40:17] <_methods> haas, enshu, meldas, cinci, amada, trumpf, mitsubishi.............
[02:40:20] <_methods> on and on
[02:40:26] <zeeshan> but usually most of the time it was issues with stupid things
[02:40:31] <zeeshan> like operator not checking fluid level
[02:40:34] <_methods> it's always something stupid
[02:40:35] <zeeshan> machine goes in limp mode
[02:40:53] <zeeshan> i think the worst two jobs was
[02:41:00] <zeeshan> replacing the 300 lb grinder wheel
[02:41:08] <zeeshan> and when someone decided to crash the spindle
[02:41:14] <zeeshan> replace the spindle
[02:41:18] <_methods> almost lost my arm in a mazak ajv
[02:41:23] <zeeshan> ajv?
[02:41:28] <_methods> yeah
[02:41:35] <zeeshan> vmc
[02:41:36] <_methods> it's a vmc with a pallet changer
[02:41:51] <zeeshan> ours were emags vl5
[02:41:56] <_methods> guy comes and gets me and tells me the machine quit workin and he can't figure out why
[02:42:10] <_methods> i go over there and take a look and see the tool changer door is open
[02:42:13] <_methods> chips had it stuck
[02:42:28] <_methods> i wasn't thinkin and grabbed a chip hoe and freed the door
[02:42:37] <_methods> didn't hit estop like an idiot
[02:42:47] <_methods> tool changed and pallet while i was in machine
[02:43:37] <PetefromTn_> HOLY CRAP
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[02:43:45] <_methods> it was fjv
[02:43:46] <PetefromTn_> you are lucky it did not squash your ass
[02:43:47] <_methods> not ajv
[02:43:50] <_methods> yeah
[02:43:59] <_methods> it ripped my shirt off and a chunk out of my shoulder
[02:43:59] <zeeshan> _methods: nice
[02:44:14] <_methods> i hated that machine before that
[02:44:21] <_methods> setup was a nightmare
[02:44:25] <zeeshan> it got its revenge on you!
[02:44:27] <zeeshan> for hating it
[02:44:28] <_methods> everything was backwards from how you set it up
[02:44:39] <zeeshan> you shoulda melted it
[02:44:44] <PetefromTn_> when I was working in that last shop the guy I worked with was machining a large tall radiused arc piece and the machine had a swingarm toolchanger..
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[02:45:06] <PetefromTn_> when the program moved the part to the left the tool swingarm was in interference with the part
[02:45:16] <PetefromTn_> and that freakin' swingarm is FAST
[02:45:21] <zeeshan> _methods: out of curisouty, was this a iso9001 facility
[02:45:26] <_methods> yeah
[02:45:37] <zeeshan> im suprised they dont have strict procedures?
[02:45:52] <norias> i'm not
[02:46:04] <zeeshan> like at the company i was at
[02:46:06] <PetefromTn_> luckily it is also powerful and just snapped the freakin' tool off and loaded the new tool
[02:46:07] <XXCoder> lol I saw hurco vm2 (old machine) with tall tooling in it. it was so tall tool swing arm would hit it if it ever changed tools. thankfully program dont
[02:46:10] <zeeshan> if you didnt put a lock on the cage..
[02:46:11] <norias> hmm
[02:46:16] <zeeshan> you would get fired on the spot
[02:46:19] <zeeshan> (robot cage)
[02:46:19] <norias> iso 9001 basically says
[02:46:24] <norias> write down what you do
[02:46:25] <XXCoder> but yeah guy would have to move it all way down to other end to change tools lol
[02:46:28] <norias> do what you wrote down
[02:46:46] <PetefromTn_> scared the crap out of us for a minute there LOL..
[02:46:55] <_methods> http://www.mastergroup.it/scheda_tecnica.asp?Id=1081&lang=it
[02:46:58] <norias> so, if you write down "Sam looks at the setup and gives a thumbs up or down, and we record that."
[02:47:00] <_methods> there that bastard is
[02:47:04] <norias> and if that's what you do
[02:47:09] <norias> iso 9001 for you!
[02:47:14] <_methods> i'd love to buy one just to go all office space on it
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[02:48:11] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: scary heh
[02:48:13] <PetefromTn_> It's big enough to put your office in it heh
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[02:48:45] <PetefromTn_> yeah man pucker factor was high on that one. if the tool came loose it would have thrown it Lord knows where...
[02:48:51] <zeeshan> _methods ROFL
[02:48:54] <XXCoder> one of minor annoyances of machine I work on - once a rare while it would fail to turn completely and tool holder drops tool expecting holder to be there
[02:48:57] <zeeshan> you really hate it
[02:49:04] <PetefromTn_> how'd ya like a Cat50 sammich...
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[02:49:06] <XXCoder> it usually dents part iim making
[02:49:28] <_methods> it was so horrible that thing changing tools you have to get in machine and the damn coolant is drippin all over your head and back
[02:51:21] <PetefromTn_> when I ran that VF6 it was like that. The table is so big and the spindle so far away from the OP position you pretty much have to crawl inside to reach it..
[02:51:46] <norias> ahh yes, vf-6
[02:51:50] <PetefromTn_> someone needs to make some kinda reach arm to load tools...
[02:51:52] <XXCoder> how the hell do you find x,y,z with spidle meters away
[02:51:54] <_methods> well i don't mind on giant VMC like VF6
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[02:52:12] <norias> we ran the doors on those open
[02:52:12] <_methods> but the fjv was like climbing into a nasty stinky coolant cave
[02:52:13] <PetefromTn_> well honestly you climb your ass in there and do it LOL
[02:52:27] <XXCoder> jeez lol
[02:52:28] <norias> i'd sit on the door ledge
[02:52:48] <PetefromTn_> there are actually little tread plates on each side of the apron for you to stand on and supposedly they are out of the danger area
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[02:53:11] <zeeshan> _methods: do you like haas machines?
[02:53:16] <PetefromTn_> there sure is something to be said about that table's acreage tho...
[02:53:30] <_methods> haas is the only machine i'd never buy
[02:53:32] <PetefromTn_> its like the deck of an aircraft carrier
[02:53:42] <norias> hmm
[02:53:43] <zeeshan> _methods: thats what ithought
[02:53:48] <zeeshan> any professional cnc machinists i talk to
[02:53:49] <zeeshan> hate haas
[02:54:03] <norias> i'm ok with haas
[02:54:05] <_methods> our piece of shit sl-30 is down right now
[02:54:07] <norias> i heard all the nit-picks about them
[02:54:09] <zeeshan> ive been do a lot of different automotive parts tier 1 suppliers
[02:54:14] <zeeshan> and have never seen a haas there
[02:54:16] <_methods> vector drive shit the bed
[02:54:17] <PetefromTn_> I hear that a lot but honestly what I have seen of them has been nothing but positive
[02:54:22] <norias> but they hold decent tolerances
[02:54:29] <_methods> there is only one good thing about haas
[02:54:29] <norias> they are maint. heavy, though
[02:54:31] <XXCoder> haas meh. it has weird gui but then im used to hurcos
[02:54:43] <_methods> they break so much the maintenance guys are freakin incredible
[02:54:45] <zeeshan> i wonder why the tier 1 guys dont use them?
[02:54:47] <zeeshan> ah
[02:54:48] <XXCoder> norias: no kidding.
[02:54:48] <zeeshan> not reliable
[02:54:51] <norias> ha!
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[02:55:00] <norias> ours is always...
[02:55:00] <_methods> they can build a whole haas from all their trucks
[02:55:05] <PetefromTn_> never really seen that either
[02:55:11] <norias> i think it doesn't like our 3-phase
[02:55:15] <zeeshan> hahaha
[02:55:16] <zeeshan> thats funny
[02:55:18] <norias> i think it would be a decent machine
[02:55:22] <norias> if i replaced the controller
[02:55:24] <XXCoder> zeeshan: $100k for huge car sized cnc router compared to 500k for tiny hurco vm10. yeah
[02:55:28] <XXCoder> much lower quality
[02:55:31] <norias> the place i work in
[02:55:38] <norias> has good reason to have weird power
[02:55:44] <roycroft> does anyone know where to get seamless square tubing (1018)?
[02:55:47] <norias> we basically charge and discharge huge batteries
[02:55:52] <norias> on random cycles
[02:55:56] <PetefromTn_> three different shops here I worked in have mostly HAAS VMC's and I don't think I ever saw but one time they had the service guys there...
[02:56:01] <norias> gives that machine fits
[02:56:06] <_methods> well they are lucky
[02:56:12] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: one I toured has all haas
[02:56:12] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: they dont use their machines enough
[02:56:13] <_methods> we got a haas horizontal
[02:56:17] <_methods> and sent it back
[02:56:18] <zeeshan> :)
[02:56:22] <PetefromTn_> like hell
[02:56:26] <_methods> they actually had to come take their machine back
[02:56:27] <XXCoder> from acient one with monocolor tube montiors
[02:56:29] <_methods> funny as fuck
[02:56:35] <zeeshan> for tier 1 suppliers
[02:56:41] <zeeshan> the poor machines are doing the same operation again and again
[02:56:43] <PetefromTn_> the first shop I worked in had like twenty of them runnning 24/7
[02:56:44] <_methods> that was the only time i'd ever seen that
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[02:57:07] <norias> i've only worked in two shops with haas
[02:57:21] <_methods> i've had them in every shop i've ever worked in
[02:57:26] <_methods> at least 1
[02:57:26] <norias> the first one was all haas, and i was only there a couple months as a temp
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[02:57:34] <norias> but we have one in the shop i run now
[02:57:39] <norias> and it's...
[02:57:45] <_methods> there's 2 machines i'd never buy i lied earlier
[02:57:53] <_methods> i'd NEVER EVER buy an esab
[02:57:53] <norias> it did good for a while
[02:57:53] <norias> but i'm always buying parts for it
[02:58:05] <PetefromTn_> I will say that two of the three shops I worked in had all BRAND NEW HAAS machines that were less than two years old or newer...
[02:58:08] <norias> i bought some ... old milltronics machine
[02:58:13] <_methods> that esab was a steaming pile of shit
[02:58:27] <norias> the milltronics held up pretty good, and is a neat controller
[02:58:32] <_methods> yeah
[02:58:36] <PetefromTn_> what about these machines was so shitty methods?
[02:58:40] <_methods> which one
[02:58:42] <_methods> the esab
[02:58:42] <norias> but now it's dead :(
[02:58:48] <norias> and it's getting linuxcnc
[02:58:50] <_methods> the esab wow where to begin
[02:58:53] <norias> (hence me being here)
[02:59:07] <zeeshan> from my understanding methods is saying is haas machines are unreliable in his exp
[02:59:18] <zeeshan> methods what do you think of makino
[02:59:21] <PetefromTn_> yeah we got that thanks
[02:59:26] <_methods> makino is good
[02:59:32] <_methods> for high production small parts
[02:59:33] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: then why ask ?
[03:00:00] <_methods> yes i've had horrible luck with haas
[03:00:00] <PetefromTn_> I was interested in specifics
[03:00:05] <_methods> the esab
[03:00:32] <XXCoder> haas had its motors overheat in shop I work at. it's still less than year old
[03:00:40] <zeeshan> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/why-does-haas-have-bad-rep-some-people-227911/
[03:00:41] <zeeshan> lol
[03:00:44] <XXCoder> it was fixed and modified to keep cooler
[03:00:49] <zeeshan> "Mostly because they only build light weight machines. All their spindle data is inflated and they are not rigid enough to be dedicated steel milling machines IMO."
[03:01:00] <_methods> oh man the controller was fucked, there was no cooling in the drive cabinet over the gantry on plasma/oxy, they packed the cable carrier so tight the hoses all abraded and we had an oxy acetylene leak
[03:01:04] <_methods> that was a fun one
[03:01:05] <zeeshan> people just have mixed experiences
[03:01:24] <XXCoder> ouch metho
[03:01:28] <norias> i dunno
[03:01:29] <_methods> and esab is 45min away
[03:01:33] <PetefromTn_> thats funny because the first shop I worked in ONLY made tool steel parts predominately
[03:01:42] <_methods> and it took them 3 weeks to come fix the oxy acetylene leak
[03:01:55] <zeeshan> Haas spindle, 10HP "rated", in the cut tested with actual load, MRR, and other calculated data, actual output was 3HP!!!!! WOW, special!! That was all it would handle before stalling the spindle. Mori spindle, 10HP "rated" BUT is constant HP all to way from 500-6000rpm. This is because that 10HP Mori is actually using a 35HP spindle motor tuned in so it will produce an increase in torque when the
[03:01:57] <zeeshan> interesting
[03:02:02] <norias> i've done quite a bit of tool steel on our haas
[03:02:05] <zeeshan> ok f this comparison
[03:02:15] <zeeshan> i just know haas hasnt been used at a tier 1 suppleir
[03:02:17] <norias> issue is, a lot of folks don't understand how to program
[03:02:18] <zeeshan> so something is up
[03:02:19] <norias> i think
[03:02:28] <zeeshan> tier 1 suppliers cant afford breakdowns
[03:02:44] <_methods> tier 1 you'll see okuma, dmg, mori
[03:02:51] <zeeshan> methods pretty much what isaw
[03:02:52] <zeeshan> and "emag"
[03:02:54] <norias> i honestly think it's the controllers
[03:02:57] <zeeshan> even those they are a royal pos.
[03:02:59] <PetefromTn_> I have heard about the inflated power number and don't know what to say about it really..
[03:03:08] <XXCoder> zeeshan: so far hurco is good experence for me, but even used one is pricier than new cars
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[03:03:21] <zeeshan> XXCoder: im sure its great
[03:03:26] <_methods> personally i think the best bang for the buck is doosan
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[03:03:33] <_methods> doosan/daewoo
[03:03:35] <zeeshan> i havent seen one at a tier 1 supplier though
[03:03:39] <_methods> but that's just my take
[03:03:42] <_methods> you won't
[03:03:52] <_methods> they're not tier 1 level
[03:03:53] <PetefromTn_> daewoo is nice they have one here
[03:03:53] <zeeshan> its pretty much dMG DMG DMG
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[03:03:57] <zeeshan> mori mori mori
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[03:04:02] <_methods> like i said all you'll see is okuma dmg and mori
[03:04:04] <zeeshan> these guys literally buy a machine
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[03:04:07] <PetefromTn_> Kia makes a decent machine too
[03:04:08] <zeeshan> run it to the ground for 3 years
[03:04:09] <zeeshan> replace it
[03:04:12] <zeeshan> and repeat.
[03:04:28] <_methods> and now mori is dmg
[03:04:35] <_methods> or dmg is mori?
[03:04:35] <XXCoder> heh theres unknown brand router table at place I work at - its 11 years old
[03:04:36] <_methods> lol
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[03:04:45] <XXCoder> it just got refabished
[03:05:05] <XXCoder> bad issues with ball screws and such
[03:05:09] <norias> anyway i was saying
[03:05:21] <norias> i think haas doesn't have a complete enough product line
[03:05:33] <norias> for a tier 1 shop to buy in to
[03:05:33] <PetefromTn_> the guy that owns the shop with the twenty or more HAAS machines swears by them
[03:05:41] <_methods> we don't have much at the shop i'm at now but we have flow waterjet, komatsu plasma, trumpf laser, and 3 haas, and one yama seiki
[03:05:42] <zeeshan> norias: maybe they dont have the relaibility record
[03:05:47] <norias> maybe
[03:05:51] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: but that is bias right?
[03:06:02] <norias> but i think retraining is a bigger concern
[03:06:09] <norias> buy stuff from the same company
[03:06:11] <zeeshan> thats a good point
[03:06:12] <norias> they all work the same
[03:06:15] <norias> etc
[03:06:19] <zeeshan> the thing is..
[03:06:20] <PetefromTn_> bias how? his father has been in the trades for years and they setup with all HAAS
[03:06:29] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: hes only ever bought haas
[03:06:30] <zeeshan> thats why
[03:06:34] <PetefromTn_> no
[03:06:35] <norias> so, i think if you are starting from scratch
[03:06:46] <norias> and the line offering of haas fits your business
[03:06:50] <norias> then it can work
[03:06:53] <zeeshan> norias: honestly i dont know if retraining is a big deal
[03:06:58] <norias> but they make a kind of limited line
[03:07:01] <PetefromTn_> his father still runs a big shop in NY and they have all sorts of machines there apparently..
[03:07:01] <norias> well...
[03:07:06] <_methods> i agree i'd use a haas if i had to
[03:07:09] <_methods> we do it every day
[03:07:13] <norias> so, thing is
[03:07:15] <XXCoder> norias: with very good maintance person sure
[03:07:22] <_methods> but if I had to choose and i had other options i'd take them
[03:07:22] <zeeshan> like the machine operators at these places are usually just pushing cycle start and doing spc checks
[03:07:29] <XXCoder> if shop is big enough for one probably better get better ones thouggh
[03:07:32] <norias> i've gotten a view of how board room shit works
[03:07:33] <norias> etc
[03:07:36] <zeeshan> i guess the operation technicians need to relearn the controls
[03:07:46] <norias> spec'd out a shop with a VP of a new company
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[03:07:56] <norias> they pretty much think machinists are dumb
[03:08:01] <zeeshan> norias: they do haha
[03:08:10] <norias> at least this guy did
[03:08:14] <zeeshan> _anyone_ on the floor is expendable
[03:08:17] <zeeshan> :(
[03:08:32] <norias> so i buy the argument that they just don't think
[03:08:37] <norias> if you run a haas one day
[03:08:43] <norias> you can run a dmg the next
[03:08:57] <norias> now, if you've been a machinist and are starting your own shop
[03:09:02] <norias> you know that's a dumb assumption
[03:09:06] <zeeshan> yea i totally agree
[03:09:13] <PetefromTn_> why?
[03:09:16] <zeeshan> to them it almost becomes a liability
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[03:09:22] <zeeshan> cause if someone kills themself on the new machine
[03:09:29] <zeeshan> and they didnt provide adequate training
[03:09:30] <zeeshan> they cvan get owned
[03:09:40] <norias> sort of
[03:09:45] <PetefromTn_> who the hell puts an untrained machinist on a machine?
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[03:09:47] <norias> it's also easier on supply chain
[03:09:53] <norias> they just buy the same shit
[03:09:53] <_methods> yeah shit don't work that way in a job shop lol
[03:09:55] <norias> you make a del
[03:09:58] <norias> deal
[03:10:06] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: when youre pressing cycle start
[03:10:08] <zeeshan> and doing spc checks
[03:10:09] <_methods> maybe in giant drone factories
[03:10:12] <zeeshan> it doesnt matter what machine youre running
[03:10:12] <norias> for a certain number of years
[03:10:21] <zeeshan> thats pretty much what most machine operators do
[03:10:24] <_methods> those are button monkeys
[03:10:26] <norias> PetefromTn_: define trained machinist
[03:10:40] <zeeshan> you will RARELY find machine operators doing that at a tier 1 place
[03:10:42] <zeeshan> they cost too much
[03:11:03] <zeeshan> _methods: how much do you think those button monkeys make
[03:11:04] <zeeshan> haha
[03:11:06] <PetefromTn_> if you are simply talking about heavy production and preprogrammed parts then yeah
[03:11:19] <_methods> depends on where you're at
[03:11:21] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: thats tier 1 pretty much
[03:11:26] <zeeshan> same old shit every day
[03:11:32] <_methods> at bosch here they make maybe $16/hr
[03:11:40] <zeeshan> _methods: up here they make 22 bux an hour
[03:11:47] <zeeshan> for spc check and running 3 machines each
[03:11:51] <_methods> for a button monkey?
[03:11:53] <zeeshan> YEA
[03:11:59] <norias> same old shit is reliable profit
[03:11:59] <PetefromTn_> but the convo is not just about tier 1 you keep bringing up
[03:11:59] <norias> cash flow
[03:11:59] <norias> plus if i'm your customer
[03:12:03] <norias> i don't want shit programmed on the shop floor
[03:12:08] <_methods> well that's not too bad not sure what the cost of livin is up there
[03:12:18] <zeeshan> PetefromTn_: for me tier1 matters a lot
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[03:12:28] <zeeshan> cause its _what the main thinks is good_
[03:12:32] <zeeshan> mainstream
[03:12:39] <XXCoder> tier 1,2,3 so on means what?
[03:12:40] <PetefromTn_> that is a good wage around here button pushers here make less than half that much sometimes..
[03:12:53] <zeeshan> XXCoder: tier 1 supplier will directly ship parts to ford
[03:13:10] <zeeshan> so say youre making a transmission , tier 1 will make the gears etc
[03:13:18] <Jymmm> Any idead on how to get 12VDC from somethng the rough size of 2 or 3 AA batteries?
[03:13:19] <zeeshan> tier 2 might make the harness for the tier 1 supplier's transmission
[03:13:32] <_methods> boost regulator
[03:13:39] <XXCoder> ahh thanks
[03:13:42] <zeeshan> with ford.. if you ship 10 bad transmissions in 1 month
[03:13:45] <Jymmm> _methods: tyvm
[03:13:47] <zeeshan> you lose your q1 certification
[03:14:12] <zeeshan> (you need to meet six sigma qualification)
[03:14:22] <Jymmm> _methods: I knew there's a reason I keep you around ;)
[03:14:23] <zeeshan> basically if yuou lose that, you company cant ship parts to ford anymore
[03:14:27] <_methods> hehe
[03:14:31] <_methods> trying to find you a good one now
[03:14:55] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Boost-Buck-Step-Up-Step-Down-Voltage-adjustable-5V-12v-24v-/251081920849?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a75a61151
[03:15:18] <_methods> 3.5v in
[03:15:25] <norias> won't that destroy batt life?
[03:15:40] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Boost-Converter-3-12V-to-12V-12W-Step-up-Mobile-Power-Supply-Module-/300843367313?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460ba97b91
[03:15:59] <_methods> he just said he wanted to boost to 12v
[03:16:03] <_methods> not extend battery life lol
[03:16:04] <Jymmm> _methods: It's got to be long and skiny (like 1xAA battery)
[03:16:04] <norias> fair
[03:16:18] <_methods> that 2nd one is kinda skinny
[03:16:23] <_methods> they're pretty small
[03:16:32] <norias> <- works at a battery company
[03:16:44] <Jymmm> oh dimensions!!!
[03:16:50] <Jymmm> norias: int he USA?
[03:16:51] * PetefromTn_ thinks JYMM is making the SUPER vibrator for himself LOL
[03:16:57] <norias> Jymmm: yes.
[03:17:04] <_methods> http://www.ebay.com/itm/new-1-5V-to-12V-1200mA-max-DC-Converter-Boost-Step-up-Power-Supply-Module-/190898613298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7271ac32
[03:17:09] <_methods> that one is really cool
[03:17:11] * furrywolf wouldn't mind a super vibrator
[03:17:11] <XXCoder> zeeshan: any way to recover? heh
[03:17:13] <_methods> looks super small
[03:17:21] <norias> i know more about some batteries than i ever wanted to
[03:17:25] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Nah, your wife placed a special order for 100 units...
[03:17:28] <zeeshan> XXCoder: absolutely 0 idea on that
[03:17:29] <zeeshan> haha
[03:17:36] <XXCoder> lol ok
[03:17:50] <PetefromTn_> heh
[03:17:57] <furrywolf> speaking of super vibrators... zeeshan: what's this about having a fiance that can build things? I want one too!
[03:18:07] <XXCoder> I dont think I will get to professional machine my own level but I do want small projects stuff
[03:18:07] <zeeshan> hahaha
[03:18:17] <Jymmm> _methods: .75" maybe, thank you.
[03:18:23] <_methods> the pcb on that last on is 23mm x 13mm
[03:18:23] <Jymmm> PetefromTn_: Sorry, couldn't resist
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[03:18:38] <PetefromTn_> yeah I know you are that guy man...LOL
[03:18:56] <PetefromTn_> but I laid it out for ya
[03:19:00] <_methods> heheh
[03:19:00] <zeeshan> theres two people who are master trolls in this channel
[03:19:04] <zeeshan> Jymmm and jdh
[03:19:04] <zeeshan> lol
[03:19:08] <PetefromTn_> and Zeeshan
[03:19:12] <zeeshan> sometimes :/
[03:19:17] <Jymmm> norias: Like AA or car SLA type batteries?
[03:19:20] <Jymmm> zeeshan: ?
[03:19:39] <Jymmm> iron?
[03:19:41] <norias> Jymmm: hmm, like big batteries that ...
[03:19:53] <norias> power houses and up
[03:20:00] <Jymmm> norias: Iron?
[03:20:06] <norias> similar cost structure to lead acid
[03:20:06] <Jymmm> Fe
[03:20:09] <norias> eh
[03:20:14] <furrywolf> norias: want to send me some? my solar system is sucking care of failed batteries.
[03:20:17] <norias> we call it Aquious Hybrid Ion
[03:20:38] <Jymmm> norias: Ah, I'm looking for a couple iron bateries is all
[03:20:43] <norias> furrywolf: we just got a distributor for solar systems... i'd have to look for that name
[03:20:53] <norias> brb
[03:20:56] <PetefromTn_> I got a project a good customer wants me to work on here.
[03:21:08] <PetefromTn_> it is a somewhat complex project
[03:21:27] <PetefromTn_> that requires two joints that move in the same plane arc
[03:21:49] <PetefromTn_> yet it has to lock in positions along that arc.
[03:21:50] <Jymmm> _methods: That might work perfectly, I can just shrinkwrap the entire thing
[03:21:56] <_methods> yeah
[03:21:57] <PetefromTn_> so basically two pivot points
[03:21:59] <_methods> they usually do
[03:22:09] <_methods> for those quadcopter esc's
[03:22:11] <PetefromTn_> on one arm
[03:22:18] <furrywolf> hrmm, I'm not familiar with that chemistry at all.
[03:22:26] <_methods> you can search esc and find them already shrinkwrapped probably
[03:22:41] <Jymmm> _methods: Nah, I need to solder leads on
[03:22:55] <_methods> k
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[03:23:13] <PetefromTn_> trying to think of a good mechanism that can have a good movement yet lock down tight at most angles and stay put.
[03:23:21] <Jymmm> out from one module into that, out to another =)
[03:23:58] <Jymmm> Then attempt to break Faraday's Law =)
[03:24:01] <norias> back
[03:24:17] <Jymmm> WB
[03:24:26] <norias> furrywolf: it's brand new. just on the market like... this yearish
[03:24:34] <furrywolf> hrmm
[03:24:36] <norias> yeah
[03:24:56] <furrywolf> so completely untested with no real-world performance data. :P
[03:25:03] <norias> how many kwh do you use?
[03:25:08] <norias> not quite
[03:25:16] <norias> we.. have sent them all over the world
[03:25:19] <norias> for beta testing
[03:25:28] <norias> over the past... i want to say three years
[03:25:38] <PetefromTn_> http://knoxville.craigslist.org/tls/4846015421.html It's like a box of Chocolates....ya never know what you are gonna get...
[03:26:08] <norias> how old are your batteries? lead acid?
[03:26:33] <furrywolf> my current bank, pre-failure, was 400Ah @ 24V... double would be better.
[03:26:38] <norias> hmm
[03:26:41] <XXCoder> haas ui
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/attachments/f43/35769d1308930298-why-does-haas-have-bad-rep-some-people-haas_crash.jpg
[03:26:45] <XXCoder> welcome to dos
[03:26:46] <norias> that's small
[03:26:51] <XXCoder> or windows 2
[03:27:01] <furrywolf> lead-acid, various ages, all purchased used, all at the end of their life...
[03:27:08] <norias> ahhh
[03:27:28] <norias> yeah, and then you are cycling them in likely an evil cycle regime
[03:27:29] <furrywolf> I also have 600Ah @ 24V of NiFe, but they need an electrolyte change, which is ~$1000 and a weekend of mixing buckets of caustic chemicals.
[03:27:38] <norias> nice
[03:27:44] <PetefromTn_> that is just one screen and looks like the toolpath viewer..which is very limited really..
[03:27:54] <norias> hmm
[03:28:01] <norias> are those running on the same inverter?
[03:28:08] <furrywolf> No idea if they work. I got them from someone who got them in the mid '80s, used them until they stopped working in the mid '90s, then let them sit outside until I got them two years ago... where they now sit outside in a box.
[03:28:12] <norias> oh, ok
[03:28:15] <furrywolf> they're not running at all. I've never connected them.
[03:28:22] <norias> i'm not a huge battery expert
[03:28:27] <norias> but i've learned a couple things
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[03:28:40] <norias> and, i dunno, if your lead acid is various ages
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[03:28:54] <norias> the shit ones could be over stressing the decent ones
[03:28:58] <XXCoder> https://skagit.craigslist.org/tls/4805665823.html
[03:29:00] <norias> and taking them down the tubes with them
[03:29:05] <XXCoder> NEW one 35k
[03:29:09] <furrywolf> pete: I wouldn't pay 5/8ths retail for ANYTHING.
[03:29:10] <norias> i'd rather have less capacity with better batteries
[03:29:32] <furrywolf> that's not how it works... the shit ones over-stress themselves and self-destruct.
[03:29:36] <PetefromTn_> huh?
[03:29:45] <norias> how are they wired?
[03:30:10] <norias> oh, nm
[03:30:12] <furrywolf> pete: the box of tools... I wouldn't pay $500 for tools that cost $800, but are now used and lacking warranty, and may be damaged, out of calibration, etc.
[03:30:13] <norias> dumb question
[03:30:22] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: what ya think lol
[03:30:29] <PetefromTn_> oh yeah that what the joke...
[03:31:03] <norias> it's really from the mismatch
[03:31:10] <furrywolf> right now it's three L16s in series with 3 golf cart batteries in parallel... I swapped the mostly-toasted golf cart batteries in place of a L16 that failed. another L16 is in the process of failing.
[03:31:13] <norias> they're probably on the same charge controller
[03:31:22] <PetefromTn_> those do not look like top quality tools but I do see what looks like a Starrett box so who knows..
[03:31:28] <furrywolf> no, mismatch has nothing to do with it. I've had completely matched sets of batteries fail too. :P
[03:31:47] <norias> batteries always fail
[03:31:48] <PetefromTn_> XXCoder of what?
[03:31:53] <PetefromTn_> the router?
[03:31:57] <XXCoder> yeah lol
[03:32:12] <norias> it's just how many cycles to fail at what charge / discharge regime
[03:32:39] <furrywolf> is this aquion? I note a distinct lack of prices.
[03:32:41] <PetefromTn_> Looks pretty heavy duty for a CNC router.. nice Z height never run one like that tho so no idea..
[03:32:46] <norias> ha
[03:32:48] <norias> is aquion
[03:33:01] <norias> we only sell through like... one distributor right now
[03:33:12] <Jymmm> norias: Begin charge when battery is at 0.3V @ 200A ;)
[03:33:26] <norias> otherwise, we sell to systems integrators who do entire solar installs
[03:33:45] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: if I wanted to just start and has money I'd go for it
[03:33:48] <norias> Jymmm: sounds about right. That should last a while.
[03:33:54] <XXCoder> but its 34,000 more than I can afford LOL
[03:34:01] <Jymmm> norias: What regions are using batteries vs direct grid tie?
[03:34:04] <Jymmm> norias: =)
[03:34:12] <norias> good question
[03:34:12] <PetefromTn_> I guess it would depend on my needs and uses..
[03:34:19] <norias> you mean our batteries?
[03:34:35] <PetefromTn_> honestly while I would love a larger machine my little Cincinatti Arrow 500 has done well for me so far.
[03:34:40] <Jymmm> norias: I see a lot of solar installs in the SF Bay Area, but many are just grid tie
[03:34:47] <norias> we have some folks in northern california that replaced their generators
[03:34:51] <norias> with solar
[03:35:04] <norias> running power up the hill was too expensive, i guess
[03:35:06] <PetefromTn_> I kinda wish I had 30" X tho.. a 30x20 would be a great little starter machine..
[03:35:18] <norias> we have quite a few on islands in the pacific via...
[03:35:27] <norias> midnight solar? out of australia
[03:35:33] <Jymmm> norias: Typical capacity in generator replacement?
[03:35:37] <norias> they do that in places that just don't have grids
[03:35:49] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: what I would love is full 4'x8' router
[03:35:51] <norias> damn, how much money you got?
[03:35:54] <norias> :)
[03:35:54] <XXCoder> have fun with full ply sheets
[03:36:16] <norias> answers i honestly should have, but don't
[03:36:22] <PetefromTn_> you can build one pretty easily...
[03:36:31] <norias> i deal with the insides of the batteries
[03:36:44] <norias> well, and the cases
[03:36:51] <PetefromTn_> if I were to build a CNC router ( and I probably will at some point) it would be able to cut at LEAST 4x8
[03:36:54] <norias> i can find out, though
[03:36:55] <Jymmm> norias: No worries, I was more curious than anything else. I've been testing solar here for summer/winter cycles, etc
[03:37:02] <furrywolf> 30 to 60V? that's a pretty wide voltage swing. that'll make it hard to use with off-the-shelf equipment.
[03:37:07] <SpeedEvil> A 'jointer' might be nice too.
[03:37:12] <norias> our marketing / sales director guy
[03:37:18] <norias> is huge on the idea of grid defection
[03:37:21] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: issue is more my movation than anything really. well and money for such big screws
[03:37:38] <SpeedEvil> That is - you apply the end or side of a bit of wood up to say 6"6", and it makes a mortice, tenon or box joint at whatever angle and offsets you want.
[03:37:44] <norias> furrywolf: are we saying 30 to 60? I don't read the website
[03:37:46] <PetefromTn_> most larger format routers do not use screws
[03:37:50] <furrywolf> lol
[03:37:57] <Jymmm> norias: I've been trying to get thru the hype and get "real" numbers
[03:38:09] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: rails?
[03:38:14] <Jymmm> norias: so I can call em on their shit ;)
[03:38:15] <norias> i can get you real numbers for our stuff
[03:38:24] <norias> but most of our installs
[03:38:30] <norias> have either been pretty huge
[03:38:34] <norias> or rich people's houses
[03:38:35] <PetefromTn_> rack and pinion, belt drive, even chain drive on some
[03:38:42] <Jymmm> norias: define huge?
[03:38:47] <norias> small village
[03:38:53] <Jymmm> norias: 12KVA ?
[03:38:58] <Jymmm> battery banks
[03:38:59] <norias> could be
[03:39:08] <XXCoder> makes sense I guess. no need to push hard on screw on such massive machine gantry
[03:39:23] <SpeedEvil> I was looking into making my own batteries, but I couldn't work out how to get them to not explode :)
[03:39:23] <Jymmm> norias: Well, anytime you need a battery beta bitch, let me know ;)
[03:39:26] <furrywolf> your pdfs also lack of a lot of useful figures. from the "current vs discharge duration" graph, I get the feeling you have very high internal resistance?
[03:39:39] <norias> honestly, the infrastructure isn't there for normal homes yet
[03:39:42] <PetefromTn_> oh now that BIG ASS machine you just posted probably has screws but that is kind of a mill/router machine
[03:39:51] <norias> siemens is still playing with inverters, etc
[03:39:58] <norias> it's a brand new technology
[03:40:11] <norias> so, we got with some bigger installers
[03:40:17] <norias> made friends with siemens, etc
[03:40:22] <SpeedEvil> The cost of decent batteries is alas huge.
[03:40:33] <XXCoder> PetefromTn_: yeah haas router at work has inch thick screws
[03:40:38] <SpeedEvil> As in - well over grid cost for capacity * cycles
[03:40:47] <norias> i can't even get them in my house yet
[03:40:51] <norias> working on it, though
[03:41:23] <norias> furrywolf: i think... they make the pdf's that way on purpose :)
[03:41:46] <norias> relatively speaking, yeah, high internal resistance
[03:41:56] <norias> i'm working on that
[03:42:07] <norias> a good bit of it is actually at the terminals
[03:42:12] <furrywolf> your peukert effect looks fucking horrible. heh. even at 0.2C they're down to half capacity...
[03:42:26] <norias> good battery terminals are a remarkably difficult engineering problem
[03:42:34] <norias> yeah, well
[03:42:38] <norias> water
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[03:43:05] <furrywolf> compare this to, say, edison, who gave the stated capacity of his batteries AT 0.2C. heh.
[03:43:10] <norias> this is great, though
[03:43:21] <norias> i'm on the battery design team
[03:43:28] <norias> so, the feedback is really interesting
[03:43:39] <SpeedEvil> It depends where you are on solar.
[03:44:07] <PetefromTn_> well goodnight folks
[03:44:07] <SpeedEvil> If you're at 'I want to cycle the batteries 50% on a good day' - then .2C may bother you
[03:44:12] <norias> oh, with refference to the peukert, also
[03:44:17] <norias> that's old data
[03:44:19] <SpeedEvil> If you want independance for 3 days of poor weatehr, not so much
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[03:44:47] <furrywolf> I don't think your batteries are suitable for many off-grid systems... from the specs you've published, which I assume are optimistic and for a brand new battery, they have absolutely no ability to supply surge loads... you'd have to greatly oversize the capacity to provide the required current for intermittant large loads. well pumps, etc, are a good example.
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[03:45:10] <norias> totally agree
[03:45:15] <norias> based on published specs
[03:45:23] <norias> it sucks for quite a few use cases
[03:45:24] <SpeedEvil> norias: I missed the PDF - what battery tech?
[03:45:36] <furrywolf> or, to use my system... just running a few lights and the laptop, I pull about 5A. if I run the microwave while the dryer is running, it's over 200A. :)
[03:45:50] <norias> aquion energy
[03:45:55] <norias> no idea where the pdf is
[03:45:58] <norias> never look at the website
[03:46:10] <furrywolf> so what's a M100 run anyway? :P
[03:46:15] <norias> some background, i'm a machinist whole prototyped all the hard parts
[03:46:15] <SpeedEvil> Interesting
[03:46:21] <SpeedEvil> norias: :)
[03:46:22] <norias> and eventually got on to the engineering team
[03:46:37] <SpeedEvil> norias: I was looking at DIYing a large battery at home. Molten lithium salt though
[03:46:44] <SpeedEvil> Surprisingly possible.
[03:46:46] <norias> don't know anything about that
[03:46:50] <norias> scares the hell out of me
[03:47:00] * furrywolf wants to know what one costs
[03:47:02] <norias> furrywolf: hmm...
[03:47:12] <norias> m100 would be 12 stacks
[03:47:16] <SpeedEvil> Teeny annoying failure mode - if the metals mix (seperated by a liquid layer, and liquid metals) - they ahve enough energy to heat up to 2200C
[03:47:23] <norias> stacks are... i think around $1500 right now
[03:47:38] <norias> so, $18,000 plus some odds and ends
[03:47:49] <norias> (did i math that right?)
[03:47:52] <roycroft> so you can cook dinner on your battery, in about 3 ms
[03:48:31] <SpeedEvil> roycroft: :)
[03:48:36] <norias> furrywolf: economics on them sucks right now.
[03:48:43] <norias> let's be real
[03:48:52] <norias> it's called a minimum viable product for a reason
[03:49:03] <SpeedEvil> yeah.
[03:49:11] <SpeedEvil> The economics of stuff varies wildly
[03:49:13] <XXCoder> lol
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Metal-Motorized-Mini-Lathe-Machine-Ship-from-USA/191089035551?_trksid=p2054897.c100204.m3164&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140407115239%26meid%3D98a1fb3c196c4c318fc527ca420d6b88%26pid%3D100204%26rk%3D12%26rkt%3D30%26sd%3D321133076742
[03:49:18] <XXCoder> TINY
[03:49:19] <norias> they are great in africa
[03:49:22] <norias> or on an island
[03:49:26] <XXCoder> dilios for ants tiny
[03:49:28] <SpeedEvil> 'Grid competitive' doesn't so much matter if you have no grid
[03:49:28] <norias> where replacing batteries is a nightmare
[03:49:48] <norias> that said, at the individual battery level
[03:49:54] <furrywolf> so that's $20kish for 27kwh, or about $740 per kwh. I can get leadacid for $60/kwh retail at a local store, less if I order a pallet. that means they have you outlast leadacid by 12 times, and you have to live long enough and have the project long enough to do that. :)
[03:49:56] <norias> we have a bunch of room for optimisation
[03:50:01] <norias> oh shit
[03:50:03] <SpeedEvil> XXCoder: I see you that, and raise you
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metal-Lathe-mini-ManSon-restored-antique-micro-Monarch-10EE-jewelers-watch-/231414756807
[03:50:06] <norias> 740 kwh?
[03:50:15] <norias> hmm, that doesn't sound right
[03:50:20] <norias> maybe i have the wrong numbers
[03:50:26] <furrywolf> $740 per kwh.
[03:50:38] <norias> should be closer to $400
[03:50:40] <XXCoder> wow lol speed
[03:50:50] <furrywolf> that's still non-cheap.
[03:50:55] <norias> $60 / kwh?
[03:51:03] <norias> that's nutty
[03:51:08] <norias> really?
[03:51:14] <furrywolf> yep, that's the advantage of lead-acid... cheap.
[03:51:22] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: are these rated deep cycle batteries?
[03:51:35] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: can you explain this to me:
[03:51:37] <furrywolf> golf cart batteries are $83 each retail... I don't recall the prices on larger cells, but they're in the same $/kwh range.
[03:51:38] <zeeshan> http://ecmweb.com/basics/calculating-single-and-3-phase-parameters
[03:51:50] <zeeshan> why 3 phase calcualtions have 1.732 :P
[03:51:59] * zeeshan got reminded by kwh
[03:52:15] <norias> damnit
[03:52:24] <norias> i'm going to stop talking about the stuff i don't know well
[03:52:28] <furrywolf> Interstate wants ~$125/kwh for L16s, but they overcharge. :)
[03:52:32] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: sin(60 or something)
[03:52:41] <norias> ask me how much resistance is in the current collector!
[03:52:44] <norias> i know that!
[03:52:44] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: each phase is 120 degree offset
[03:52:54] <furrywolf> lol
[03:53:12] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: im still trying to understand the VFD issue.
[03:53:29] <zeeshan> yea if you have lets say 1000W available, it doesnt matter if its single or 3 phase.
[03:53:30] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: fundamentally, power into a VFD can be the same as power out.
[03:53:31] <zeeshan> power is power
[03:53:34] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: doing so costs.
[03:53:40] <zeeshan> but the thing is the currents are not the same.
[03:53:44] <furrywolf> do they need watering, or is your cell voltage (1.5V/cell?) low enough they don't gas much? platinum recombiner?
[03:53:54] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you don't care about the currents, you care about the developed watts.
[03:54:07] <norias> furrywoolf: no watering. sealed.
[03:54:11] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: 'real' watts
[03:54:16] <norias> yeah, cell voltage is... more like 1.3V
[03:54:25] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: but the thing is the current that is generating that watts
[03:54:27] <norias> they do gas some
[03:54:35] <zeeshan> is 360/2 apart (single phase)
[03:54:45] <zeeshan> and the current it needs to generate is 360/3 apart
[03:54:49] <norias> but the loss on it is pretty low
[03:54:54] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Current * voltage = volt-amps. Only in the case that volts and amps are in phase is this the same as real watts.
[03:55:11] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: real watts are what you actually care about when calculating maximum efficiency.
[03:55:13] <zeeshan> yea for purely resistive load
[03:55:30] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: i'm not wondering about efficiency
[03:55:35] <zeeshan> im wondering how its physically possible
[03:55:49] <zeeshan> in a single phase circuit for a given 1/60 period
[03:55:52] <furrywolf> are they waterable? if they have loss, and no way to add water, they're going to fail if you run them hot...
[03:55:56] <zeeshan> you have a specific current wave, specific voltage wave
[03:56:07] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: how is it possible that the sum of two adjacent sides of a triangle is 2, whereas the diagonal is sqrt(2)?
[03:56:15] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's exactly the same problem
[03:56:18] <norias> furrywolf: that's a big debate right now. we really designed them for a 20 hour cycle
[03:56:19] <furrywolf> also, I love the wording "UL Recognition Targeted". aka "not approved, but we tried"? :P
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[03:56:37] <norias> now, we're getting asked to do higher rates, so... a few parameters are changing
[03:56:53] <norias> i.e. other stuff should die before they need rewatered
[03:57:03] <SpeedEvil> 20 hour cycle - utility load leveling?
[03:57:05] <norias> oh, ul thing is
[03:57:17] <norias> basically, if you look at the UL categories
[03:57:19] <norias> we're a new one
[03:57:24] <SpeedEvil> norias: fun!
[03:57:27] <norias> we're working with UL on how to make that work
[03:57:38] <furrywolf> for my ni-fe, I started building a RO-DI system for my own water, as they use stupid amounts.
[03:58:00] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: im gonna post a plot cause im a visual person :/
[03:58:01] <norias> SpeedEvil: yeah
[03:58:14] <furrywolf> even just playing with some of my smaller cells, you can go through water at unbelievable speeds. I think they make just as effective of electrolysis cells as they do batteries.
[03:58:18] * SpeedEvil ponders posting plot.
[03:58:25] <norias> SpeedEvil: problem is, they want to buy in bigger lots than we can supply right now
[03:58:53] <SpeedEvil> yeah - utilities may actually be interested in buying a GWh
[03:59:00] <norias> so, we have to do a quicker charge / discharge that will get us in smaller unit markets
[03:59:19] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/NAIQEeR.png
[03:59:27] <zeeshan> top is the 3 phase, buttom 3 phase
[03:59:31] <SpeedEvil> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/phase.html#c2
[03:59:33] <zeeshan> bottom is single phase i mean
[03:59:51] <norias> SpeedEvil: yeah, well, they want a Gwh demo unit
[03:59:54] <norias> to look at
[03:59:56] <norias> and think about
[04:00:07] <norias> that's a lot of cash to put in to a demo unit
[04:00:09] <zeeshan> you basically have 1 voltage wave, that you need to generate 3 from.
[04:00:10] <norias> for a new compan
[04:00:11] <norias> y
[04:00:15] <zeeshan> i dunno i give up
[04:00:26] <zeeshan> :)
[04:01:12] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you need to integrate teh voltage and current multipled to get RMS watts out on each wave. This is real watts without any imaginary component. Now, simply sum the three phases. And compare to the input
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[04:01:26] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Fundamentally - there are no losses inherent in the process.
[04:01:39] <SpeedEvil> Imagine you have 1kW input to the VFD, a motor, and then a generator
[04:01:54] <SpeedEvil> you must be able to connect a 1kW load to the generator - or there are losses somewhere
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[04:02:10] <furrywolf> the biggest thing your batteries have doing for them is cycle life... but I don't see a cycle life vs dod vs temperature chart in the specs...
[04:02:42] <norias> you have all the good questions, furrywolf
[04:02:51] <norias> i'm going to get you pics of the lab
[04:02:52] <SpeedEvil> That was the nice thing I found about the lithium batteries.
[04:02:56] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: okay that makes sense
[04:02:56] <norias> since you seem so in to batteries
[04:02:58] <furrywolf> what kind of cell pressure are you running? the case design looks like it's scary.
[04:02:59] <SpeedEvil> All the compoennts are liquid.
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[04:03:05] <zeeshan> what doesnt make sense is the ratings vfd manufacturers supply
[04:03:14] <zeeshan> they rate input current to 20A for example
[04:03:14] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Oh - sure it does.
[04:03:19] <norias> cell pressure is way high
[04:03:20] <zeeshan> and output current is 20/1.73
[04:03:24] <zeeshan> approx.
[04:03:34] <zeeshan> why the huge drop in current output
[04:03:40] <zeeshan> for the same voltage
[04:03:40] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's the difference between what is possible in theory, and what is possible cheaply
[04:03:42] <norias> we basically have huge ass springs compressiong everything
[04:03:50] <furrywolf> lol
[04:03:59] <furrywolf> getting it high enough for the h/o to recombine?
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[04:04:01] <norias> we called the same people that make springs for trucks
[04:04:06] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: so you're saying theyre not using fancy capacitors that can keep up with the switching demand?
[04:04:06] <norias> no, actually
[04:04:09] <furrywolf> or is it some other operational requirement?
[04:04:11] <norias> to overcome contact resistance
[04:04:12] <SpeedEvil> I'm reminded of reading a recent report into the 787 battery fire.
[04:04:21] <furrywolf> hrmm...
[04:04:22] <norias> interfacial resistances
[04:04:28] <SpeedEvil> Battery contacts and internal pressure was a secondary issue
[04:04:46] <norias> i could see that
[04:04:54] <norias> it's also full of freaking lithium
[04:04:57] <norias> so
[04:05:06] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: its very odd that almost all vfd amnufacturers
[04:05:12] <SpeedEvil> they actually saw degraded overheating contacts on the top of the battery, but diddn't consider it a concern as it 'only' happened at 110% of nominal
[04:05:17] <zeeshan> outputs are off by a factor of 1.732
[04:05:17] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: you need extra stages.
[04:05:30] <zeeshan> so they all pretty much use the same method to generate 3 phase
[04:05:48] <zeeshan> ive seen like maybe 50~ diff spec sheets
[04:05:51] <zeeshan> from diff companies, diff models
[04:05:54] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: To cope with non zero power factor, you need to not only be able to simply set the voltage - you also need to be able to redirect the current to one or other of teh rails.
[04:05:57] <norias> speedevil: degraded contacts only get worse, no?
[04:06:00] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: now - this is all quite possible.
[04:06:15] <SpeedEvil> norias: It was claimed that the degradation only ahppened outside service conditions
[04:06:36] <norias> eh
[04:06:53] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: the problem is that it adds effectively another power converter stage to the inverter, and adds maybe 5-10% on the price and the design effort
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[04:07:00] <norias> that doesn't follow with what i understand
[04:07:11] <SpeedEvil> norias: the contact degradation was not the main issue
[04:07:19] <norias> no, i hear you
[04:07:29] <norias> what was the main issue, incidentally?
[04:07:38] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: makes sense
[04:07:44] <zeeshan> i think the key to understanding is
[04:07:48] <SpeedEvil> that was a side-issue found during investigation The main one was wrinkles during battery assembly, causing one third of a cell to go short circuit.
[04:07:50] <zeeshan> power doesnt change regardless of 3 phase or single
[04:07:56] <zeeshan> thats where i was going wrong
[04:08:04] <norias> ahhh
[04:08:21] <norias> short circuit -> thermal runaway?
[04:08:24] <SpeedEvil> That third of a cell then rapidly overheated, taking out the other three. And 'vent with flame' wasn't adequately coped with in the specs, and the one cell cooked off the rest
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[04:09:09] <norias> some of the folks i work with have done lithium ion
[04:09:13] <norias> say it's a nightmare
[04:09:20] <norias> from a qc perspective
[04:09:44] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AIR1401.pdf - fascinating
[04:09:58] <zeeshan> does total power remaind constant in single phase?
[04:10:00] <norias> i will read
[04:10:14] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: Sort-of, power factor hits there too.
[04:10:22] <zeeshan> well thats the thing i keep reading
[04:10:26] <zeeshan> that in 3 phase it is
[04:10:32] <zeeshan> but apparently in single phase it isnt
[04:10:33] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it's the reason inverters 'volt amp' figures make a difference rather than watts
[04:10:38] <zeeshan> but i cant find references to math
[04:10:52] <furrywolf> your website's video makes your production plant look way too shiny for a battery plant.
[04:11:09] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: you've been looking at pictures of Edisons plant though.
[04:11:19] <SpeedEvil> Full of 12 year-old american lads with no shoes and a pipe.
[04:11:26] <furrywolf> lol
[04:11:30] <norias> lol
[04:11:35] <norias> it's brand new
[04:12:08] <zeeshan> do you know the pf of a typical single phase motor
[04:12:09] <zeeshan> vs 3 phase
[04:12:15] <zeeshan> its like .9 vs 1?
[04:12:28] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: it varies depending on load and the design of the motor
[04:12:28] <zeeshan> at full load
[04:12:30] <furrywolf> so why do they cost so much, anyway? your raw materials are cheap, your cases plastic, and your factory highly automated...
[04:12:35] <zeeshan> yea i know :P
[04:12:35] <zeeshan> haha
[04:12:41] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: Factories are expensive
[04:12:48] <zeeshan> im just trying to get an idea of something with no fancy capacitors added
[04:12:49] <XXCoder> its people
[04:12:53] <XXCoder> its made from people!
[04:12:54] <zeeshan> and wound the same way
[04:13:09] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: there are 'no' single phase motors
[04:13:21] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: single phase induction motors are actuall two-phase cap motors
[04:13:33] <zeeshan> yea if it was single
[04:13:35] <zeeshan> it wouldnt spin.
[04:13:35] <norias> furrywolf: oh gosh. you really want to talk about cost?
[04:13:41] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: single phase 'universal' motors aren't really - because they'd run just fine on DC
[04:13:47] <norias> i'm working on that right now
[04:14:26] <SpeedEvil> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induction_motor 'The power factor of induction motors varies with load, typically from around 0.85 or 0.90 at full load to as low as 0.35 at no-load
[04:14:36] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: thank you for clarifying this stuff
[04:14:40] <SpeedEvil> zeeshan: np
[04:14:41] <furrywolf> at least you're cheaper than iron edison... they want $5000 for a 48V 100Ah pack. heh.
[04:14:59] <zeeshan> SpeedEvil: now find me a 1hp 110vac motor!
[04:15:02] <zeeshan> vfd
[04:15:02] <zeeshan> :D
[04:15:13] <norias> our price will come down over time
[04:15:18] <norias> we're at one line right now
[04:15:23] <norias> we break even at like 3
[04:15:31] <norias> shits capital intensive
[04:15:33] <SpeedEvil> norias: gigafactory an issue you're thinking of?
[04:15:48] <SpeedEvil> Musk is doing some _scary_ shit.
[04:15:57] * zeeshan needs to stick to mechanical eng
[04:15:58] <SpeedEvil> (for entrenched vendors)
[04:16:01] <norias> it's interesting
[04:16:01] <zeeshan> damn EE schools me
[04:16:13] <furrywolf> last I heard, he was planning on flooding the market with cheap lifepo4.
[04:16:28] <norias> yeah, well
[04:16:32] <norias> elon is smart
[04:16:35] <SpeedEvil> In that he's ~halved the cost of rocketry. And this year comes another ~halving. And that's before reusability of rockets kicks in propelry.
[04:16:48] <norias> but build a battery factory is just dirty, hard, shitty drudgery
[04:16:56] <SpeedEvil> And he's just announced that he's going into satellite production.
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[04:17:02] <norias> and honestly
[04:17:09] <norias> there are only so many people he can hire
[04:17:16] <SpeedEvil> True.
[04:17:17] <norias> people go to school wanting to design rockets
[04:17:24] <furrywolf> of course, I would like to point out, even changhong, the primary chinese ni-fe supplier, publishes pdfs with about twenty times the details of your pdfs. :P
[04:17:27] <norias> people don't do that with batteries
[04:17:47] <norias> furrywolf: well... dang
[04:17:51] <norias> i don't write the pdf's
[04:18:11] <furrywolf> marketing people write the pdfs, from what I can guess reading them. :)
[04:18:18] <norias> yes, actually
[04:18:25] <norias> they believe whatever we tell them :)
[04:18:36] <norias> and write what they think they understand
[04:18:45] <norias> i don't ever see that stuff
[04:18:53] <norias> i could, i just don't look
[04:19:06] <SpeedEvil> The chinese market is interesting in many ways.
[04:19:15] <SpeedEvil> 'internal' documentation gets sprayed _everywhere_
[04:19:15] <norias> i make the little parts better, cheaper, etc
[04:19:33] <SpeedEvil> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=4297
[04:19:36] <norias> i'm the guy that deals with the injection molding companies, etc
[04:19:58] <SpeedEvil> Injection moulding? Bah - buy a 3d printer!
[04:20:00] <SpeedEvil> :)
[04:20:11] <norias> lol
[04:20:14] <norias> we have a couple
[04:20:17] <SpeedEvil> There are some really cool ones - some can do inconel.
[04:20:25] <norias> we don't have that budget
[04:20:29] <SpeedEvil> (the process then is quite warm)
[04:20:30] <furrywolf> well, other than a few issues, they sound like a good product... but you don't have any graphs or details to qualify the marketing claims, which always make me very, very suspicious. what's the cycle life go down to when hot? etc.
[04:20:39] <SpeedEvil> yes - if you made inconel battery cases, people would look at you funny.
[04:20:52] <norias> furrywolf: fair points.
[04:21:02] <norias> it's... hard to market the graphs
[04:21:05] <norias> i think
[04:21:12] <norias> because it's rapidly evolving
[04:21:20] <SpeedEvil> These are all reasonable points if your customer is the CEO. And the next step is 'have your people talk to my people'
[04:21:29] <norias> right
[04:21:39] <SpeedEvil> It's less reasonable if it's individuals or small companies wanting to perhaps buy a pallet.
[04:21:46] <furrywolf> speedevil: edison's nickel plated steel cases with gas-welded seams are a work of art, imho.
[04:21:48] <norias> that's not happening much right now
[04:21:54] <norias> the batteries we are making
[04:21:57] <norias> right now
[04:22:05] <norias> are way better than the ones marketing used for their data
[04:22:20] <norias> they are constantly evolving, it's not a fixed product yet
[04:22:27] <SpeedEvil> Great!
[04:22:33] <norias> we're marketing... s10, right?
[04:22:40] <norias> or are those data sheets for s20?
[04:22:42] <SpeedEvil> As long as you're understanding why they're better.
[04:22:43] <norias> er, b10
[04:22:45] <furrywolf> I know! why don't you send me a M100, and I'll give it a real-world test in a solar system. :P
[04:22:50] <norias> :)
[04:22:57] <furrywolf> S20
[04:23:00] <norias> i'm trying to get an m100 in my house
[04:23:02] <norias> oh, ok
[04:23:16] <norias> s20 will effectively have a market life of... 3 months?
[04:23:24] <norias> i'm wrapping up details on s30 now
[04:23:28] <furrywolf> lol
[04:23:40] <norias> now, after s30, it slows down
[04:23:46] <norias> changes get more costly
[04:24:06] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: by 3D printer you mean cnc glue gun or actual additive manufacturing equipment?
[04:24:26] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: 'CNC glue gun' is a perjorative term.
[04:24:51] <CaptHindsight> filament fetish, sounds more derogatory
[04:25:00] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: It is a tool. Just like a hammer, a file, or a 6 axis machining center that can do 10m props.
[04:25:05] <CaptHindsight> yet I still hear the wooosh
[04:25:22] <norias> furrywolf: some of the changes from s20 to s30 are like...
[04:25:31] <CaptHindsight> you mean it won't save the world?
[04:25:36] <SpeedEvil> For example - even with 'glue' - lost glue casting is interesting
[04:25:41] <norias> "Hey, we can get current collectors double the thickness for not double the cost..."
[04:25:45] <norias> "Nuh uh."
[04:25:57] <SpeedEvil> norias: pricing of stock is funny.
[04:26:00] <norias> "Yeah, huh. Makes the battery better, too."
[04:26:11] <furrywolf> tell the marketing people to stop using the term "salt electrolyte". unless it uses NaCL, that's just misleading, because nicd etc are all salt electrolytes too...
[04:26:14] <SpeedEvil> As is working out just how to make stuff with the least wate.
[04:26:31] <CaptHindsight> you mean salts vs NaCl?
[04:26:45] <SpeedEvil> NaCl is a salt - it's not the only salt.
[04:26:54] <norias> who says we aren't using nacl?
[04:26:56] <SpeedEvil> Also - aren't NiCd KaOh?
[04:27:06] <SpeedEvil> that'snot typically thought of as a salt. But an alkaline
[04:27:07] <furrywolf> "a unique saltwater electrolyte battery technology" may be technically correct, but terms like "saltwater" are misleading. my KOH batteries are saltwater too by that definition...
[04:27:09] <CaptHindsight> there ya go gettin all upidty with the science stuff
[04:27:18] <norias> yeah, yeah
[04:27:20] <SpeedEvil> Ah - yeah. 'saltwater' is wrong.
[04:27:25] <SpeedEvil> 'salt water' ok
[04:27:35] <norias> ahh, i see what you mean
[04:27:43] <norias> i'll mention that
[04:27:45] <SpeedEvil> but that's only something a chemist would actually care about.
[04:27:45] <norias> wish me luck
[04:27:46] <CaptHindsight> vs saline?
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[04:28:16] <SpeedEvil> The important bit is actual life graphs - as much as possible - over temperature and DOD
[04:29:52] <norias> yeah
[04:29:58] <furrywolf> and any efforts to improve the discharge rate... selling a 250lb battery with an inline 15A fuse is just pathetic. :)
[04:30:06] <norias> ha!
[04:30:38] <furrywolf> I have bigger connectors on my solar panels than you have on the batteries... and my batteries are all 5/16 studs and 4/0 wire. :P
[04:31:02] <norias> who's cost targets did you have to work to? :)
[04:31:19] <norias> oh, wait, didn't you say the batteries are too expensive?
[04:31:26] <furrywolf> lol
[04:31:37] <furrywolf> too expensive AND incapable of running many loads is a bad combination. :)
[04:32:00] <furrywolf> for most off-grid systems, they'd need to be greatly oversized to be able to supply peak loads...
[04:32:19] <norias> peak, what 2A?
[04:32:28] <furrywolf> I have my batteries fused at 250A not 15A... and I think I could blow that fuse if I tried.
[04:32:46] <norias> 15A per 8 batteries
[04:32:52] <SpeedEvil> If they were cheap enough though - a LiFePO4 bank to last for peak loads would help lots
[04:32:54] <norias> 2A per bat
[04:33:03] <norias> so, it's sized about right
[04:33:04] <Jymmm> _methods: Looky wat I found...
http://search.ebay.com/351278658010
[04:33:42] <furrywolf> you might consider marketing them combined with an ultracapacitor bank for peak/startup loads.
[04:33:53] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: I consider that to be really unlikely
[04:34:08] <furrywolf> you might even be able to make the capacitors... your cells sound a little like ELDCs to me...
[04:34:12] <norias> furrywolf: I mentioned that. not our market.
[04:34:20] <norias> if upstream wants to do it, so be it
[04:34:27] <norias> we decided we're just a battery company
[04:34:37] <furrywolf> heh, so you already thought of this. :P
[04:34:39] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: if you have the KV meter, bring it on =)
[04:34:40] <norias> just these batteries
[04:35:02] <SpeedEvil> norias: do you do free shipping to scotland? :)
[04:35:09] <norias> doubtful
[04:35:19] <norias> well, how many modules do you want?
[04:35:34] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: maybe those cheap stun guns?
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[04:36:10] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: ah yeah. 'discharging distance' - 1-2cm.
[04:36:18] <SpeedEvil> Jymmm: 40kV - OK - that's reasonable
[04:36:23] <Jymmm> SpeedEvil: =)
[04:36:24] <SpeedEvil> 400KV - no way
[04:36:36] <furrywolf> I want however many you'll ship me for testing. :P
[04:36:40] <CaptHindsight> 400KV at 10MHz
[04:37:13] <norias> furrywolf: just depends on how many you buy :)
[04:38:05] <furrywolf> ...buy? :)
[04:38:28] <CaptHindsight> furrywolf: those are Chinese volts
[04:39:17] <furrywolf> does your sodium sulfate precipitate out in cold temperatures?
[04:39:20] <SpeedEvil> I actually have a 200KV/1kW power supply as one of my stack of projects.
[04:39:45] <SpeedEvil> Using a microwave oven 'inverter' power supplyt.
[04:39:50] <CaptHindsight> well it might be a 133,333:1 step up transformer
[04:39:53] <unfy> don't become part of some sci fi "melding of man and machine" :P
[04:40:02] <norias> i saw some crap about
[04:40:08] <norias> using microwave ovens
[04:40:13] <norias> to sinter metals
[04:40:15] <SpeedEvil> yea
[04:40:15] <unfy> microwave transformers are scary beasts.
[04:40:18] <norias> i.e. powdered metals
[04:40:38] <SpeedEvil> norias: there is a limited range of conductivities alas
[04:40:48] <SpeedEvil> the most fun application I saw was to make nanotubes.
[04:40:50] <SpeedEvil> Process:
[04:40:50] <unfy> and do becareful with the microwave generator itself. the ceramic material is toxic (ie: don't go breaking it)
[04:40:59] <SpeedEvil> Take carbon fibre. Rinse off with acetone, dry.
[04:41:06] <SpeedEvil> Dip in ferrocene, dry.
[04:41:15] <SpeedEvil> microwave for 45 seconds
[04:41:32] <SpeedEvil> This 'functionalises' the CF with little sticky-out nanotubes
[04:41:32] <CaptHindsight> do the metal particles a) absorb the microwave energy or b) does the friction from the particles oscillating generate the heat?
[04:42:01] <SpeedEvil> Broadly speaking - all heating in a microwave oven is not due to resonant effects
[04:42:14] <SpeedEvil> it's soley due to large electrical currents flowing in the material
[04:42:24] <CaptHindsight> what resonance?
[04:42:40] <CaptHindsight> the materials (hardly) the what?
[04:42:43] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: it's a common misconception that water resonates in a microwave
[04:43:03] <SpeedEvil> I thought that was what you were referring to
[04:43:04] <CaptHindsight> well there are far too many 20 something on IRC
[04:43:43] <CaptHindsight> you don't often realize you don't know anything until 30 or 40
[04:43:51] <SpeedEvil> yup
[04:46:11] * furrywolf double-checks the soluability of na2so4 in water, and suspects these batteries are for temperate climates only!
[04:52:02] * furrywolf tries to figure out what "synthetic cotton" is, and why they show a picture of a cotton plant...
[04:54:28] <SpeedEvil> GM
[04:55:23] <norias> where's that from, furrywolf?
[04:56:13] <furrywolf> all over the place
[04:56:18] <norias> ok
[04:56:39] <norias> we put some of the real early ones outside
[04:56:42] <norias> during the winter
[04:56:51] <norias> just to see what'd happen
[04:56:57] <norias> electrolyte froze
[04:57:08] <norias> then we cut one open on the bandsaw
[04:57:22] <norias> looked pretty neat
[04:57:29] <furrywolf> neat != good. :P
[04:57:38] <norias> then someone decided to duct tape the two halves together
[04:57:42] <norias> and but it on test
[04:57:47] <norias> put
[04:57:55] <norias> apparently it worked for a while
[04:58:35] <furrywolf> fortunately that's probably something that could be cured with an additive... something to lower the freezing point without altering cell chemistry...
[04:59:00] <norias> yeah
[04:59:10] <norias> that was like... 3 years ago
[04:59:24] <furrywolf> because a battery you can't use in half the country limits your market a bit.
[04:59:44] <norias> put it inside
[04:59:51] <norias> dogs and batteries
[04:59:52] <norias> inside
[05:00:19] <norias> it's not going to explode
[05:00:20] <furrywolf> lol
[05:00:44] <furrywolf> yeah, it does sound like it emits a bit fewer corrosive fumes than lead-acid...
[05:01:07] <furrywolf> although... does electrolysis of sodium sulfate produce sulfuric acid? my chemistry is too rusty to remember.
[05:01:44] <norias> doutbful
[05:01:48] <norias> also, not a chemist
[05:01:59] <norias> however, have taken these batteries apart
[05:02:02] <norias> numerous times
[05:02:20] <norias> and didn't have to take any real safety precautions
[05:02:40] <furrywolf> yeah, sodium sulfate is pretty nontoxic. which is a definite plus.
[05:03:04] <SpeedEvil> I should check out the patents I guess
[05:03:06] <norias> oh snap
[05:03:09] <norias> there is a video
[05:03:25] <furrywolf> the one that makes your factory look way too shiny?
[05:04:04] <norias> no, it actually does look like that
[05:04:27] <norias> they aren't showing powders processing
[05:05:04] <norias> oh! scott is on the internets!
[05:05:20] <norias> based on this video
[05:05:25] <norias> three people make all the stuff
[05:05:33] <roycroft> scotty was just on sttng
[05:06:09] <norias> wow, that's crazy
[05:07:06] <norias> we have a website with videos and such
[05:08:10] <furrywolf> I like how the "why they're better than lead-acid" page repeatedly points out that lead-acid loses half their life at 10C hotter... while very carefully giving no specs whatsoever on your own batteries.
[05:08:16] <furrywolf> lol
[05:08:26] <furrywolf> you didn't know this? :)
[05:08:33] <norias> uh
[05:08:40] <norias> it's just crazy
[05:08:57] <norias> i was like, employee #15
[05:09:14] <norias> there was ... nothing
[05:09:19] <norias> well, some offices
[05:09:21] <norias> and a lab
[05:09:27] <norias> and i built the machine shop
[05:09:43] <norias> now there's a factory, on a video, on a website
[05:09:45] <norias> nuts
[05:10:07] <norias> oh, you're worried about 10C hotter?
[05:10:42] <furrywolf> no, I'm amused that you point out deficiencies with other batteries while carefully avoiding give any details about yours at all for comparrison.
[05:10:56] <norias> yeah
[05:11:00] <norias> well, S20
[05:11:11] <norias> i dig what you're saying on that
[05:11:19] <norias> but at the same time
[05:11:28] <norias> why write all this stuff up now
[05:11:37] <norias> when we're just about to iterate the thing
[05:11:40] <norias> to something better
[05:11:48] <norias> but we cant publish the better specs now
[05:11:48] <furrywolf> because people who might send you money are smart enough not to take marketing fluff at face value.
[05:11:53] <norias> because we're not selling that
[05:12:08] <norias> you also won't send money without talking to a sales engineer
[05:12:17] <norias> who will give you ever data sheet you want
[05:12:44] <norias> eventually, if you are a "qualified buyer"
[05:12:53] <furrywolf> lol
[05:12:54] <norias> i.e. you actually can afford this stuff
[05:13:09] <norias> and you ask the sales guy something he doesn't know
[05:13:17] <norias> he says, "I dunno, but I know who does."
[05:13:25] <norias> Then a guy named Eric Weber emails you.
[05:13:33] <norias> and just tells you all the stuff you want to know
[05:13:41] <norias> which is good
[05:13:50] <norias> you want to deal with an eric weber
[05:13:54] <norias> he's fucking smart
[05:14:03] <furrywolf> heh
[05:14:33] <norias> it's a company full of really smart people
[05:14:36] <norias> and everyone says
[05:14:44] <SpeedEvil> Depends on how retail you want to get I guess.
[05:14:46] <norias> "Eric Weber? He's really smart."
[05:14:51] <norias> We don't.
[05:14:58] <norias> We want someone else to retail it
[05:15:03] <norias> as a part of their package
[05:15:07] <furrywolf> the idea sounds like it has potential, but actual real-world test results are always the final answer...
[05:15:23] <norias> hah
[05:15:25] <norias> potential
[05:15:26] <furrywolf> give iron edison a call. they like selling alternative batteries
[05:16:02] <SpeedEvil> ion also sounds like iron
[05:16:16] <furrywolf> they have something like four different product lines right now... chinese nife, usa nifi, lifepo4, and something I don't remember... or maybe they only have three.
[05:16:23] <norias> idea has potential
[05:16:25] <furrywolf> s/nifi/nife
[05:16:29] <norias> it's at a high state of charge
[05:16:41] <SpeedEvil> norias: sounds like a very fun place to work.
[05:16:54] <norias> yeah, it's been a good ride
[05:17:36] <SpeedEvil> Probably not going for the EV market. Well - unless it's long-haul trains. :)
[05:17:47] <norias> yeah, ev...
[05:17:50] <norias> not our thing
[05:17:58] <norias> wee bit... heavy... for that
[05:18:08] <SpeedEvil> http://ironedison.com/iron-edison-usa-series-nickel-iron-nife-battery Oh right - neat
[05:18:11] <SpeedEvil> made in USA
[05:19:29] <furrywolf> I'm guessing if you use thinner plates in a greater number, you end up with better 5-hour rates, but worse cycle life?
[05:20:08] <norias> not necessarily
[05:20:28] <norias> cycle life has a few different... failure modes
[05:20:37] <norias> depends on which one wins
[05:20:54] <furrywolf> now this part sounds interesting. :)
[05:20:57] <norias> and also what cycle life you really need
[05:21:02] <furrywolf> forever!
[05:21:09] <norias> yeah, so...
[05:21:43] <norias> thinner also make a more expensive battery
[05:22:18] <norias> active material to everything else ratio
[05:23:25] <norias> current collectors in lead acid are interesting
[05:24:20] <SpeedEvil> carbon fibre additives?
[05:24:32] <norias> what?
[05:24:39] <furrywolf> my favorite is still original Edison batteries. you could individually unscrew each plate. :)
[05:24:48] <SpeedEvil> never mind - I thought you were referring to CF additives in the lead acid matrix
[05:24:57] <SpeedEvil> lead
[05:25:11] <SpeedEvil> it helps keep the battery connected even in the face of extreme sulphation
[05:25:12] <norias> i just meant the shape
[05:25:18] <norias> some of the cost effort there
[05:25:21] <SpeedEvil> ah
[05:25:44] <norias> take out the material that doesn't effect bulk resistance
[05:25:46] <furrywolf> norias: if you want to see beautiful engineering, take apart an Edison battery.
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[05:26:03] <norias> you want to see beautiful engineering
[05:26:08] <norias> take apart and aquion battery
[05:26:11] <norias> squint your eyes
[05:26:18] <norias> and only look at the parts i worked on
[05:26:23] <furrywolf> lol
[05:26:26] <norias> :P
[05:27:38] <furrywolf> http://jamesdjulia.com/wp-content/uploads/images/auctions/146/images/org/1740.jpg google to the rescue!
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[05:35:12] <norias> http://www.altestore.com/store/Deep-Cycle-Batteries/Batteries-Saltwater-Technology/c1260/
[05:37:01] <furrywolf> "worlds first green battery" ... nickel-iron is plenty green.
[05:40:14] <furrywolf> nife has some good features... very low self discharge and near-infinite life. the bad is cost, efficiency, and maintenance...
[05:40:34] <furrywolf> I have some cells from the '40s that still test at new capacity 70 years later.
[05:40:43] <SpeedEvil> Lots of the flow batteries look really, really interesting too.
[05:40:52] <SpeedEvil> 'Need more capacity - add another tank'
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[05:43:28] <furrywolf> hrmm, vents CO on overcharge... that's nice and safe.
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[05:45:46] <norias> shhh
[05:46:05] <SpeedEvil> Sell it with a free bonus CO detector
[05:46:29] <norias> you're freaking made of carbon and oxygen
[05:46:35] <norias> what's the big deal
[05:47:03] <unfy> dat troll :P
[05:48:10] <furrywolf> one of my relatives died from CO. heh.
[05:50:23] <norias> "Shockwave crash has flashed."
[05:50:44] <unfy> Colorado must be stopped. (TM)
[05:50:53] <unfy> or, Columbia ? take your pick
[05:51:03] <norias> Colorado
[05:51:36] <unfy> actually, columbia is .do i think ?
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[05:53:33] <furrywolf> bbl, wolfy bedtime
[05:54:17] <SpeedEvil> night everyone
[05:54:21] <SpeedEvil> I should try and all.
[05:54:24] <SpeedEvil> It being 6AM
[05:54:29] <SpeedEvil> norias: fun talking.
[05:54:36] <norias> you too
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[06:20:24] <zeeshan-mill> it didnt blow up!
[06:20:31] <zeeshan-mill> YAY
[06:20:45] <norias> good
[06:21:16] <zeeshan-mill> my spindle contactor was sticky
[06:21:20] <zeeshan-mill> had to clean it
[06:21:24] <zeeshan-mill> other than that it started up
[06:21:29] <zeeshan-mill> i dont know what these colors mean on the mesa
[06:21:30] <norias> good deal
[06:21:35] <norias> no idea
[06:24:18] <zeeshan-mill> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/16251023906/
[06:24:49] <zeeshan-mill> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15657077743/
[06:24:52] <zeeshan-mill> those ones
[06:25:26] <norias> hmm
[06:25:28] <norias> green
[06:25:31] <norias> looks familiar
[06:25:33] <norias> who makes that
[06:26:11] <zeeshan-mill> mesa
[06:26:24] <norias> naw, the machine
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[06:28:00] <zeeshan-mill> mikron
[06:28:41] <norias> ahh
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[06:31:04] <zeeshan-mill> man im happy
[06:31:14] <zeeshan-mill> its taken over like 3 months of straight work
[06:31:17] <norias> i bet
[06:31:17] <zeeshan-mill> to get this goin
[06:31:26] <zeeshan-mill> controller from scratch is hard as hell
[06:31:34] <zeeshan-mill> i wish i could go back and just reusew hat came with the machine
[06:31:43] <unfy> i've been watchin your progress :D
[06:32:15] <norias> hard is usually worthwhile
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[06:35:13] <zeeshan-mill> i need to really get a table top toolbox for the keyboard and mouse and scrreen
[06:35:17] <zeeshan-mill> im using the t-slot table haha
[06:35:19] <zeeshan-mill> its cold
[06:36:10] <zeeshan-mill> PCW, i hope youre ready for the crap load of q's coming to you tomorrow!
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[06:43:07] <zeeshan-mill> when i do loadrt hostmot2; loadrt hm2_pci; show pin
[06:43:13] <zeeshan-mill> and i get a crapload of pins
[06:43:24] <zeeshan-mill> does this mean im communicating with 5i25+7i77
[06:43:33] <zeeshan-mill> because i only see lights on the 7i77 lit up. not 5i25
[06:43:36] <zeeshan-mill> but i see pins show up
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[08:13:58] <Deejay> moin
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[10:19:24] <Tom_itx> good one zeeshan
[10:19:45] <Tom_itx> if you see pins in dmesg, you're talking to the 5i25
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[12:12:36] <Bushman> http://imgur.com/gallery/MaYFD
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[13:06:25] <jdh> what's a gobo
[13:08:42] <malcom2073> Amusing that A: He felt the need to specify it's not supposed to be a copy (love the internet), and B: 4 points on a dickbutt request.
[13:13:44] <jdh> what's a dickbutt and why do you like them?
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[13:14:51] <malcom2073> It's an imgur meme thing, and I don't, but apparently at least 4 other people do
[13:15:23] <malcom2073> If you gave an 8 year old a marker, and told them to draw one, you'd get exactly what it is
[13:15:37] <malcom2073> Don't google it
[13:15:38] <malcom2073> trust me.
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[13:23:14] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiETlYskTrY How to make an Acrylic box in 5 minutes
[13:23:43] <CaptHindsight> works with other easily welded plastics as well
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[13:26:09] <malcom2073> I don't have sound, but the logo popping up every 10 seconds is rather annoying
[13:26:16] <jdh> yep
[13:26:39] <malcom2073> I keep hearing their name in a wrestler announcer voice everytime it does it
[13:27:52] <malcom2073> Nifty idea though
[13:28:13] <CaptHindsight> it popped up so often I don't know their name, have it on auto delete in my brain
[13:29:28] <malcom2073> Something VT
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[13:30:44] <CaptHindsight> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czFWhNsCa2I these guys have been around for years
[13:31:02] <malcom2073> Boom, random seaplane.
[13:31:26] <malcom2073> Nice
[13:31:27] <CaptHindsight> the action starts ~1;00
[13:32:59] <malcom2073> A hot brake for bending plastic, nice!
[13:33:07] <CaptHindsight> handy
[13:33:29] <malcom2073> And they use the melting-plastic nutsert, been meaning to pick some of those up to try with my glue gun printer
[13:33:49] <CaptHindsight> 2:41 check out her fast hands and accuracy
[13:34:00] <malcom2073> She's quick
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[13:35:09] <archivist> the method has been around a while, these are cnc grooved and bent
http://camdenboss.com/enclosures/custom-size-enclosures
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[13:35:38] <CaptHindsight> archivist: yes, but I rarely seem them put into practice
[13:35:51] <archivist> they cnc the snap together groove too
[13:36:32] <archivist> I have a sample box somewhere
[13:37:07] <CaptHindsight> http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?tag=novena even here, they wasted money on tooling
[13:39:11] <cpresser> CaptHindsight: most likely i will throw the case out and build my own
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[14:13:40] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20150113-noztek-uk-launches-new-pcb-controlled-3d-printing-filament-extruder-noztek-touch.html finally looking like an actual extruder
[14:14:55] <CaptHindsight> http://www.milabtech.com/extruders%20lab.htm
[14:17:07] <malcom2073> And yet it still doesn't do filament width detection/compensation
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[14:23:57] <CaptHindsight> you wouldn't bother on a production extruder
[14:24:34] <CaptHindsight> you just get the settings right and run it all day and night
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[14:58:41] <zeeshan> Tom_itx: do you know if any lights are supposed to light up on the 4 leds on the 5i25?
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[15:05:33] <pcw_home> only if you setp them...
[15:07:12] <zeeshan> would i be seeing all those output and input00 pins
[15:07:23] <zeeshan> that say like 5i25 and 7i77 in them, if there was no communication?
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[15:07:42] <pcw_home> No
[15:08:05] <zeeshan> i dont know if this is the right way to do things but i think im getting the red light on the 7i77 on the bottom right because of watchdog failure
[15:09:03] <zeeshan> i am trying to test some output states. hal run, loadrt hostmot2, loadrt hm2_pci, setp appropriate 5i25.7i77_output00 pin to true
[15:09:10] <pcw_home> red light on 7i77 means comms have been lost (normal before linuxcnc is running and after it is shut down)
[15:09:33] <zeeshan> is there a pin i can trigger, to get out of that mode temporarily
[15:09:41] <zeeshan> so i can test i/o manually
[15:10:12] <pcw_home> run linuxcnc use watch...
[15:10:26] <zeeshan> that would mean i need t oconfiugre a linuxcnc config first hehe
[15:11:06] <zeeshan> okay im happy ididnt blow up the 7i77
[15:11:09] <pcw_home> well a simple config is not more than about 4 lines
[15:11:10] <zeeshan> means wiring is somewhat good :P
[15:11:44] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/configs/7i77.html
[15:13:02] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: in the additional files zip, what does hm2-servo.var do
[15:13:12] <zeeshan> it has a bunch of 0's in it :P
[15:13:59] <zeeshan> JT-Shop: also i noticed in the first zip file, there are parameters defined for the axis
[15:14:14] <zeeshan> i was trying to start with a barebone config to just test i/o to ensure i didnt reverse solenoid direction
[15:14:32] <pcw_home> you can test with halrun but the remote I/O stuff needs a thread setup
[15:14:32] <JT-Shop> those files are the tool table and variables files
[15:14:35] <zeeshan> so if there was magically something that trigger the servo drives to move, i wouldnt burn up the z servo
[15:15:05] <pcw_home> I would disable your servos for initial tests
[15:15:11] <JT-Shop> just comment out or delete most of the lines after the first few
[15:15:12] <zeeshan> they are in red mode right now
[15:15:14] <zeeshan> meaning disabled
[15:15:30] <pcw_home> I mean remove power
[15:15:52] <pcw_home> as in estop
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[15:27:14] <zeeshan> i dont know why i didnt think of that
[15:27:26] <zeeshan> btw you guys were right. killing primary side of vfd even during motor operation
[15:27:28] <zeeshan> doesnt blow up the vfd
[15:27:38] <zeeshan> i dont know who/what engraved that in my brain
[15:27:43] <zeeshan> i finally said f , and tried it out
[15:28:19] <pcw_home> dont break at motor leads though...
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[15:28:44] <zeeshan> pcw_home: yes, it when you break at the motor leads they recommend a timed type of break.
[15:28:56] <zeeshan> the auxiliary contacts must drive in "reset mode"
[15:29:15] <pcw_home> Yeah only when current is 0
[15:29:22] <zeeshan> before the contacts for the motor leads open
[15:30:12] <skunkworks> we have killed the power side of all the vfd/servo drives (during estop) and have not had any problems.
[15:30:13] <zeeshan> loadrt trivkins, loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AXES, loadrt hostmot2 debug_idrom=1 debug_module_descriptors=1 debug_pin_descriptors=1 debug_modules=1, loadrt [HOSTMOT2](DRIVER) config=[HOSTMOT2](CONFIG), setp hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.watchdog.timeout_ns 10000000
[15:30:46] <zeeshan> skunkworks: i was thinking power cycling e-stop rapidly can blow up things
[15:31:03] <zeeshan> i think it will blow up a smps type powersupply maybe
[15:31:28] <skunkworks> well - on my machines - letting out the estop doesn't power things back up...
[15:31:30] <zeeshan> my 24vdc 6A psu draws 40amp inrush!
[15:31:47] <zeeshan> skunkworks: you're not directly controlling the contactors?
[15:32:28] <skunkworks> I am. but you have to use the linuxcnc estop 'button' to bring it out of estop again.
[15:32:43] <zeeshan> ah you have them in a chain
[15:33:49] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Sample_HAL_And_ClassicLadder
[15:34:02] <skunkworks> type 4 ladder
[15:34:12] <skunkworks> I think is the best...
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[15:44:05] <cradek> Answer backwards is teser-potse ro <1F> sserp dna nottub lanretxe eht esaeler.
[15:44:17] <cradek> man, anyone can edit a wiki
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[16:07:59] <skunkworks> Is that wrong?
[16:08:33] <skunkworks> I think that hails from ray days...
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[16:25:06] <zeeshan> cant find an answer to this
[16:25:11] <zeeshan> how do you setup the servos to work in open loop
[16:25:40] <zeeshan> (so i want to use hal scope to see if servo is velocity tuned)
[16:25:46] <zeeshan> within the drive itself
[16:26:39] <zeeshan> do i have an old version of linuxcnc if i dont see 5i25 in the mesa0pci/parport card in i/iocontrol boards in pnc conf
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[16:27:24] <pcw_home> probably, newer pncconfs have 5i25/7i77 configs built in
[16:29:18] <zeeshan> i'm confused on what the procedure is in linuxcnc side to first velocity tune the servos using the servo drive loop itself but only use linuxcnc for its hal scope
[16:29:33] <zeeshan> those configs jt posted already have values for pid ff
[16:29:41] <zeeshan> won't that interfere?
[16:29:44] <zeeshan> asap i try to enable the servo
[16:29:56] <zeeshan> (i dont have glass encoders hooked up yet)
[16:32:10] <zeeshan> ubuntu-10.04-linuxcnc3-i386.iso
[16:32:17] <pcw_home> I would do an open loop test first, you need to set loop gain and tachometer gain
[16:32:26] <zeeshan> what versio nof linuxcnc is on that/ how do i find out current linuxcnc version
[16:32:57] <archivist> it is in the title when started
[16:33:00] <pcw_home> I would download the latest (wheezy 2.6.5 iso)
[16:33:03] <zeeshan> archivist: it crashes lol
[16:33:24] <zeeshan> pcw_home: i have a few drivers installed
[16:34:15] <zeeshan> the live cd has 2.6
[16:34:19] <zeeshan> it doesnt sday 2.6.5
[16:35:15] <archivist> one updates the live cd as part two of getting it going
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[16:37:19] <zeeshan> archivist: after in install the 2.6 livecd
[16:37:23] <zeeshan> where do i grab the 2.6.5 files from
[16:37:25] <zeeshan> i dont see it on the website
[16:37:43] <zeeshan> http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[16:37:44] <zeeshan> that?
[16:38:57] <zeeshan> nm
[16:39:01] <zeeshan> the is version is 2.6.4
[16:39:07] * zeeshan needs to learn to read
[16:40:59] <skunkworks> apt-get update/upgrade...
[16:41:16] <zeeshan> okay
[16:45:09] <zeeshan> yea i got 2.5.4 installed on the mill
[16:45:23] <Bushman> 14:08:42 < malcom2073> Amusing that A: He felt the need to specify it's not supposed to be a copy (love the internet), and B: 4 points on a dickbutt request.
[16:45:29] <zeeshan> ill do 2.6.4 live cd install -> apt get update to 2.6.5
[16:45:51] <Bushman> malcom2073: you'd be suprised how many commented on it NOT looking the same
[16:46:08] <Bushman> i had to explain to them it's not suppose to "be the same"
[16:46:11] <malcom2073> Bushman: I know! haha that's why I found it amusing. Good call cutting them off before they started
[16:46:29] <Bushman> malcom2073: well, they did
[16:46:33] <Bushman> elsewhere
[16:46:45] <malcom2073> heh
[16:46:49] <Bushman> i thought i'd rather be on the safe side here
[16:47:09] <zeeshan> 25000 ns latency ok to run stuff?
[16:47:14] <zeeshan> im avging 19000
[16:47:24] <zeeshan> when surfing the internets
[16:47:48] <Bushman> also, i've added video (by user request) of one of the gobos in action for people who need to see what it does
[16:47:54] <pcw_home> it OK
[16:47:59] <pcw_home> its
[16:48:14] <Bushman> zeeshan: don't average it
[16:48:25] <zeeshan> Bushman: peak.
[16:48:27] <Bushman> zeeshan: but it's still better than what i get
[16:48:29] <Bushman> :P
[16:48:31] <zeeshan> want a buffer
[16:48:38] <zeeshan> i should move my lathe mobo to this mill
[16:48:38] <Bushman> i get peaks at 50k
[16:48:44] <zeeshan> that thing hits 4500 mx
[16:48:45] <zeeshan> max
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[16:48:50] <zeeshan> but its software stepping so prolly needed more there
[16:48:58] <zeeshan> Bushman: maybe driver related?
[16:49:09] <Bushman> i'm using software stepping too
[16:49:31] <malcom2073> Bushman: Link to video?
[16:49:35] <malcom2073> I'm curious what they do too
[16:49:38] <Bushman> mine averages at 25000
[16:49:41] <Bushman> malcom2073: sure
[16:49:57] <Bushman> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqTqILIU9kw
[16:50:14] <malcom2073> Ohhhh... that's really slick
[16:50:17] <zeeshan> haha
[16:50:17] <Bushman> only one. i've recorded it yesterday when i didn't have the other made yet
[16:50:18] <zeeshan> thats COOL
[16:51:13] <Bushman> thanks ;]
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[16:54:33] <zeeshan> project that on your neigbours house
[16:57:05] micges_ is now known as micges
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[16:59:55] <Bushman> heh, could be hard... i don't have MAC700 at home :P
[17:00:54] <PetefromTn_> neat....uh what the hell is it?
[17:01:48] <Bushman> the big black thing with bright light coming from it on the video
[17:02:27] <PetefromTn_> no I mean what is the symbol and what do you use the setup for?
[17:03:06] <Bushman> oh the symbol is just some random geometric shapes
[17:03:16] <Bushman> i made them on the whim
[17:03:45] <R2E4> What kind of machine is the whim?
[17:03:52] <R2E4> lol
[17:04:08] <Bushman> sorry, i can't english today :P
[17:06:32] <Bushman> i'm still looking for ideas for clever but not complex shapes for more GOBOs
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[17:07:36] <Bushman> those were made with 1mm cutter but today 0.8mm and 0.5mm came in so i guess i'll be able to cut somethign more complex
[17:09:09] <Bushman> it's all wibbly wobbly on the edges cause one of my axis is made on furniure drawer slides XD
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[17:10:10] <Bushman> but i've just ordered 2 more rails with a set of bearings and i'm hoping i'll be able to get rid of all this swinging from crappy lead screws with just good rails
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[17:18:30] <SpeedEvil> Just add enough preload, it'll be fine.
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[17:23:03] <Bushman> SpeedEvil: the screws work ok but aren't the straightest in the world cause i made them from cheap 8mm threaded rods from the hardware store
[17:23:46] <Bushman> and pretty much 2 axis work fine because they are made with proper hardened rails and linear bearings
[17:24:11] <Bushman> but the Y axis is made with the cheapest thing i could find XD
[17:24:31] <SpeedEvil> You should always use ground threads.
[17:24:41] <Bushman> (i've started with this axis)
[17:24:43] * LeelooMinai renames it to Why? Axis
[17:24:43] <SpeedEvil> Get a cut-off wheel, some bar, and a protractor
[17:25:23] <Bushman> SpeedEvil: huh?
[17:25:40] <Bushman> i plan on buying new threads for upgrade
[17:26:01] -!- amiri has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
[17:26:09] <Bushman> did not decide what to buy yet but i do not require insane precision
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[17:26:57] <LeelooMinai> Probably one of those ACME(?) square threaded ones would be next step
[17:27:06] <Bushman> i wanted to buy cheap trapezoidal thread lead screws
[17:27:24] <Bushman> but they don't sell them here pre-machined
[17:27:41] <malcom2073> mcmaster has them for moderatly cheap prices
[17:27:56] <Bushman> and even the rolled ball screws are many times more expensive and unreasonable for my machine
[17:28:09] <Bushman> mcmaster?
[17:28:12] <Bushman> online?
[17:28:13] <malcom2073> Bushman: Where are you?
[17:28:15] <malcom2073> in the world?
[17:28:16] <malcom2073> yeah online
[17:28:38] <Bushman> i'm in Poland, Europe
[17:28:43] <malcom2073> Ah ok
[17:28:51] <Bushman> do they have it premachined?
[17:28:57] <malcom2073> define premachined?
[17:29:08] <LeelooMinai> With machined ends I presume
[17:29:15] <malcom2073> Ah, not that I know of.
[17:29:16] <Bushman> yes
[17:29:36] <malcom2073> But, I've seen people hand-grind them off with moderate success if you don't have a lathe
[17:29:46] <malcom2073> or a machine shop nearby
[17:29:49] <Bushman> yea. so i have the thread really cheap here but i would still have to find a company that would machine the ends for me
[17:30:22] <Bushman> my lathe is useles for this kind of job as it has no opening in the shaft
[17:30:27] <malcom2073> ahh yeah
[17:30:30] <Bushman> also it's junk
[17:30:35] <Bushman> :D
[17:30:43] <malcom2073> That's no good :)
[17:30:52] <Bushman> really old and broken in parts
[17:30:54] <Bushman> :P
[17:30:56] <PetefromTn_> a good machinist can make accurate parts on even junk machines heh
[17:30:57] * SpeedEvil passes Bushman a drill.
[17:31:07] <Bushman> PetefromTn_: true!
[17:31:21] <Bushman> PetefromTn_: as long as he can actually mount the stock in them LOL
[17:31:32] <SpeedEvil> As your quality drops, the time to make the part can get prohibitive
[17:31:36] <malcom2073> Bushman:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/86180-turning-acme-screw-ends-without-lathe.html
[17:31:37] <PetefromTn_> imagination
[17:31:41] <Bushman> SpeedEvil: there was a plan to order a new shaft for it, yes
[17:32:03] <SpeedEvil> and you tend to swap from machining quality to metrology quality
[17:32:24] <SpeedEvil> If you have accurate metrology, you can make anything with a file.
[17:32:50] <Bushman> hmm..
[17:32:51] * LeelooMinai hands SpeedEvil a plastic file
[17:32:59] <Bushman> lol
[17:33:03] <Bushman> nail file
[17:33:27] <Bushman> tho i've turned a precision part with a nail file once
[17:33:28] <SpeedEvil> Just gets more annoying.
[17:33:57] <Bushman> it was 3mm brass shaft with some complex end and i had to copy it... it worked
[17:34:23] <SpeedEvil> Reminds me of the 1/4 scale fuel injector :)
[17:34:25] <Bushman> one of the features of the end was square part among other diameter short segments
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[17:42:33] <zeeshan> anyone have this issue: when you install the live cd using graphical menus and get to the part where you need to partition,
[17:42:43] <zeeshan> it says partition failed.
[17:42:53] <zeeshan> when you retry, it says /dev/sda failed or something
[17:42:55] <Bushman> can't say i have
[17:42:57] <cradek> nope
[17:43:00] <malcom2073> Ok brain fart on AC power. If I have a heater who's resistance will make it pull 45amps at 220v. This means that the wires need to be capable of 50amps for both legs? or does 220 split it?
[17:43:14] <zeeshan> hmm
[17:43:31] <zeeshan> does ubuntu 10.04 use ext3 or ext4
[17:43:32] <cradek> malcom2073: look up your ampacity table and use the correct wire for the breaker
[17:43:34] <Bushman> legs?
[17:43:56] <zeeshan> malcom2073: yea
[17:44:01] <zeeshan> 8awg will work
[17:44:04] <malcom2073> cradek: The breaker says 50A, but it is attached to two 110v rails, so what does 50A mean? per rail? Or combined?
[17:44:08] <zeeshan> assuming 75C conductors/breaker
[17:44:14] <Bushman> malcom2073: do you mean both source wires, neutral and live?
[17:44:21] <zeeshan> malcom2073: are you in usa?
[17:44:22] <malcom2073> Bushman: Two live wires
[17:44:23] <malcom2073> no neutral
[17:44:26] <malcom2073> zeeshan: yes in USA
[17:44:30] <malcom2073> so split neutral
[17:44:39] <Bushman> oh
[17:44:44] <zeeshan> for 220v its 50A per rail
[17:44:51] <zeeshan> er
[17:45:00] <zeeshan> its 110V 50A per rail
[17:45:07] <malcom2073> Gotcha
[17:45:07] <malcom2073> So 8awg
[17:45:11] <zeeshan> yes
[17:45:13] <malcom2073> at the smallest
[17:45:14] <malcom2073> thanks
[17:45:20] <zeeshan> you have 75C breakers right?
[17:45:34] <zeeshan> read the breaker and see what the terminals are rated for
[17:45:41] <malcom2073> not sure, I'll double check
[17:45:44] <malcom2073> it's wired to a 50A welding socket
[17:45:47] <zeeshan> if they say 60C , then you need to use 6awg
[17:45:48] <malcom2073> but I'll make sure they wired it proper
[17:45:58] <malcom2073> So I'm plugging into a welder socket
[17:48:56] <malcom2073> Just wanted to make sure I got the right wire for the wall->device
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[17:49:09] <malcom2073> I got 8awg, but was second guessing if I needed it that large, guess I do :)
[17:51:44] <cradek> looks like it might need to be 6
[17:51:48] <cradek> better ask an electrician
[17:52:06] <_methods> always add P to any project
[17:52:23] <_methods> P = Plenty
[17:52:25] <_methods> lol
[17:52:25] <malcom2073> heh
[17:52:42] <malcom2073> This is open air, not in-wall, so 8arg should work for up to 50A, but really no more since it'll get warm
[17:52:54] <cradek> hah 8arg
[17:53:14] <_methods> that's what you do when you see the price of the wire
[17:53:19] <cradek> yep
[17:53:26] <malcom2073> yeah really
[17:54:54] <_methods> hahah it's AWG till you get the bill then it's ARG
[17:55:34] <malcom2073> I'd rather not ask an electrician, they'd shoot me if they saw what I'm doing :-D
[17:57:42] <malcom2073> Well I have a 50A breaker on the device itself, 8awg wire to a 50A welding plug, I'll verify there is at least 8awg wire from the plug to the box, and a 75C breaker in the box before I hook it up.
[17:58:09] <zeeshan> nec 310.16
[17:58:09] <malcom2073> I don't trust they wired that part right anyway
[17:58:11] <zeeshan> covers this
[17:58:24] <zeeshan> https://lugsdirect.com/WireCurrentAmpacitiesNEC-Table-301-16.htm
[17:58:39] <zeeshan> even though youll likely use THHN
[17:58:45] <zeeshan> which is rated for 90C
[17:58:51] <malcom2073> so if I have 75C conductor, I can do 50A heh
[17:58:52] <zeeshan> you need to still look at 75C column
[17:58:59] <zeeshan> because your breaker terminals are rated for 75
[17:59:06] <malcom2073> Gotcha, i'll make sure they're rated for that
[17:59:44] <zeeshan> also just remember tha tis rated for 30C ambient
[17:59:55] <malcom2073> This is in the garage, and if I'm running this device, it's damn cold
[18:00:06] <zeeshan> yea i dont think my garage hits more than 30C in the summer
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[18:00:36] <zeeshan> this isnt some 100 foot long run is it
[18:00:42] <malcom2073> 5ft run
[18:00:45] <zeeshan> okay :P
[18:01:08] <malcom2073> Mounting this heater on a bracket on the wall, next to the plug heh
[18:01:13] <malcom2073> which is 5ft from the breaker box
[18:01:47] <zeeshan> if you wanna be safe, you should run 6awg
[18:01:55] <zeeshan> so your wire doesnt run as hot
[18:01:58] <malcom2073> If this works, and I wind up permanently installing it, I will
[18:02:07] <zeeshan> thats what i did with my heater
[18:02:11] <malcom2073> I'll run a dedicated circuit for it
[18:02:11] <zeeshan> it called for 30A load
[18:02:23] <zeeshan> i ran a 30A breaker on a 8 awg wire
[18:02:59] <malcom2073> That is, if it's effecctive enough to justify the $6 an hour it'll cost to run
[18:03:15] <jdh> ?
[18:03:23] <malcom2073> 10kw heater
[18:03:35] <malcom2073> for my concrete box of a garage
[18:03:40] <jdh> that's a lot of heat.
[18:04:03] <malcom2073> Not really, my dad has 9kw of wall mounted heaters in his garage, it's semi-insulated, and that barely keeps up in the winter
[18:04:46] <malcom2073> This is forced air though :-D
[18:04:48] <zeeshan> some people hate electric heaters
[18:04:50] <zeeshan> cause they cause fires
[18:05:22] <jdh> $0.94/hr here
[18:05:32] <zeeshan> portable propane heaters are worse i think.
[18:05:36] <malcom2073> for 10kw? Maybe it's cheaper here I dunno
[18:05:44] <zeeshan> you really need some external ventilation for the fumes
[18:05:47] <zeeshan> co2
[18:05:54] <malcom2073> Right
[18:05:58] <malcom2073> that also means lost heat
[18:06:01] <malcom2073> unless you use a heat exchanger
[18:06:09] <zeeshan> yea, but even with lost heat
[18:06:12] <zeeshan> it ends up being a lot cheaper :P
[18:06:15] <malcom2073> True
[18:06:20] <malcom2073> this was free though in terms of materials :)
[18:06:25] <malcom2073> well... plus price of wire and plug
[18:06:31] <zeeshan> i wouldnt do a propane heater
[18:06:34] <zeeshan> ive been considering natural gas
[18:06:37] <zeeshan> since the line is right there
[18:06:41] <malcom2073> I have natural gas
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[18:08:04] <roycroft> i have a heater similar to this:
[18:08:05] <roycroft> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00HS8FZAC/ref=psdc_510182_t3_B000TK2SWO
[18:08:12] <roycroft> i use it in my garage and in my welding shop
[18:08:30] <malcom2073> roycroft: I've basically built that, but 10kw
[18:08:46] <roycroft> neither of which are insulated, and it heats them pretty quickly even in the dead of winter (which around here is just a little less than freezing - -2c or so)
[18:08:52] <malcom2073> Nice
[18:08:54] <jdh> my garage heater warms up things within a couple of feet right in front of it.
[18:08:54] <malcom2073> that's good to know
[18:09:02] <roycroft> it's interesting because it has multiple power taps
[18:09:12] <roycroft> you can wire it to whatever amperage you have available
[18:09:18] <malcom2073> Ohh nice
[18:09:37] <roycroft> yeah, i'd like to get another one so i don't have to move them around
[18:09:40] <jdh> that looks pretty nice.
[18:09:43] <roycroft> but they are expensive
[18:09:52] <jdh> I have a 240vac window unit for my garage a/c
[18:09:53] <roycroft> it's not heavy
[18:10:08] <roycroft> i'd just like to mount it from the ceiling joists instead of setting it on a countertop
[18:10:40] <roycroft> i could probably fabricate another bracket for it and do that, but then it gets to be a pain in the butt to lift it up and mount it/unmount it all the time
[18:10:57] <roycroft> i'm getting old, and would rather spend money and do less work
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[18:23:30] <PetefromTn_> I use or rather USED a portable force air kerosene blower heater to knock off the chill in the morning and once it was comfortable out there shut it off and use the electric heater I have here which is similar to the one that Roycroft uses to maintain the temps. When it is REALLY cold outside sometimes I just use the forced air kerosene heater on the thermostat and still use the electric one to help it stay comfy. I DO NOT LI
[18:23:58] <roycroft> i have a couple big kerosene/diesel heaters, but both of them stink up the shop
[18:24:01] <malcom2073> My dad uses a kerosens heater to do the same, knock the chill off, then his electronics to maintain
[18:24:05] <roycroft> they do an initial heat really fast
[18:24:20] <roycroft> and if they did not stink up the shop i would do exactly that
[18:24:30] <roycroft> on cold days, i go out first thing (like 6am) and turn on the heater
[18:24:36] <PetefromTn_> I honestly never really have been bothered by any smells... You gotta maintain them or they will stink it up...
[18:24:40] <roycroft> and figure i can start working comfortably around 9:30-10:00
[18:25:10] <roycroft> which for what i do is almost always fine
[18:25:15] <PetefromTn_> I have heard that the diesel smells worse and mine was a dual fuel
[18:25:27] <roycroft> what's fun is when you have to shoot paint in the winter
[18:25:36] <PetefromTn_> I tried the diesel once or twice and did not really notice any difference
[18:26:05] <roycroft> i close up all the nooks and crannies as best i can, crank the heat up as high as i can, then kill the heat right when it's time to start spraying
[18:26:14] <PetefromTn_> maybe I am less sensitive to the smells...
[18:26:24] <roycroft> and even then, when it's really cold out i just wait for warmer weather
[18:26:49] <PetefromTn_> I have sprayed many many gallons of paint in my shop doing cabinet work with the heater running the whole time heh
[18:27:15] <PetefromTn_> even shot a lot of lacquer
[18:27:23] <PetefromTn_> which is supposed to be highly flammable...
[18:27:30] <PetefromTn_> never had a problem
[18:27:42] <jdh> as we can tell by your continued existence
[18:27:45] <PetefromTn_> but I always crack the doors and put an exhaust fan
[18:28:02] <PetefromTn_> under the garage doors to evacuate the majority of the fumes..
[18:28:17] <PetefromTn_> I also sprayed towards the crack in the door whenever possible.
[18:30:27] <PetefromTn_> thats one thing I really dislike about living here in tennessee... it gets pretty cold some winter days and makes working in the shop costly... if you want to be comfortable that is.
[18:30:52] <jdh> imagine all those poor people that live up north.
[18:31:19] <jdh> NY, VT, ME, ND, CA, MN
[18:31:32] <PetefromTn_> that's their problem I will be living down south at some point here and I personally can't wait to be done with this whole winter thing LOL
[18:32:08] <PetefromTn_> would rather sweat my ass off any day hehe
[18:33:07] <jdh> me too
[18:33:32] <PetefromTn_> with any luck we will be going on a vacation in Florida here soon man...
[18:34:00] <jdh> me too!
[18:34:05] <PetefromTn_> last time we were down there was like 2010 or 2011
[18:34:10] <PetefromTn_> been far too long...
[18:35:07] <jdh> yeah, too long for me too.
[18:35:16] * jdh checks calendar.
[18:35:55] <jdh> either "last year" or "almost 2 weeks" since I got to go.
[18:36:15] <PetefromTn_> do you usually drive or fly?
[18:36:22] <jdh> always drive
[18:36:44] <PetefromTn_> we were looking at renting a mini van or something for the trip
[18:36:47] <jdh> I take a lot of stuff with me.
[18:36:49] <roycroft> i would not mind living a bit farther south
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[18:37:01] <roycroft> but "a bit farther south" in terms of avoiding winter weather means california
[18:37:14] <roycroft> and that's too far for me :P
[18:37:15] <jdh> little cuba
[18:37:16] <PetefromTn_> I lived in Norcal and Socal
[18:37:23] <roycroft> i actually really like california
[18:37:36] <PetefromTn_> Yeah Cali is beautiful place but stupid expensive
[18:37:41] <roycroft> but i don't like the regulatory structure that makes it difficult to conduct business there
[18:37:59] <roycroft> and really does not do the environmental and social protection things it's designed to do
[18:38:10] <jdh> I paid $1.89 for gas yesterday
[18:38:13] <PetefromTn_> yeah they got some crazy ass laws..
[18:38:17] <PetefromTn_> me too!!
[18:38:24] <PetefromTn_> been paying that for almost two weeks now or so
[18:38:45] <jdh> not here, I had to go to Richmond yesterday
[18:38:47] <PetefromTn_> supposed to be under $2.00 nationwide soon so might be even less here..
[18:39:17] <PetefromTn_> makes driving my beloved Fullsize BRonco less of an indulgence hehe
[18:39:25] <jdh> yukon xl
[18:39:37] <jdh> probably still better mileage than a bronco though!
[18:39:38] <PetefromTn_> what you get in that thing?
[18:39:49] <jdh> 17-18
[18:39:52] <PetefromTn_> I get like 14-15
[18:40:00] <PetefromTn_> around town
[18:40:15] <PetefromTn_> unless I really stomp the pedal
[18:40:20] <zeeshan> man no matter what i do
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[18:40:23] <PetefromTn_> then you can watch the gauge move..
[18:40:29] <zeeshan> i keep getting failed partition in this debian wheezy nonsense
[18:40:42] <PetefromTn_> It must not like you zeeshan
[18:40:52] <PetefromTn_> :0
[18:40:56] <zeeshan> lol
[18:41:03] <zeeshan> i have 2.5.4 installed on it
[18:41:08] <zeeshan> i guess its something to do with debian.
[18:41:28] <PetefromTn_> Can't help ya I have Ubuntu
[18:41:49] <zeeshan> im gonna run the livecd
[18:41:51] <zeeshan> make the partition
[18:41:54] <zeeshan> and see if that works.
[18:43:34] <PetefromTn_> Good luck man.
[18:43:46] <PetefromTn_> what year is your Yukon?
[18:43:53] <jdh> 11
[18:44:14] <jdh> had a 2008 taht got worse mileage and consumed oil
[18:44:19] <PetefromTn_> I actually like those better than the new ones... I think they screwed up the looks on the new ones.
[18:45:03] <roycroft> biodiesel is down to $3.39/gallon here, for b99
[18:45:24] <roycroft> it's been $3.79 for a few months, and was $3.99 for years before that
[18:45:40] <PetefromTn_> well gotta tear down this setup and put my Kurt back on the Cinci....
[18:45:51] <roycroft> we have this weird tax incentive for blended fuel
[18:45:54] <Tom_itx> $1.74 for regular
[18:46:03] <jdh> nice
[18:46:04] <roycroft> it's supposed to promote blending biofuels into petrofuels
[18:46:05] <PetefromTn_> woah nice
[18:46:11] <PetefromTn_> is that with any sort of discount?
[18:46:13] <jdh> Thanks Obama
[18:46:14] <roycroft> but they way it's written it requires a blend
[18:46:26] <roycroft> it's a state incentive of $1/gallon
[18:46:39] <roycroft> so if i were to fill up with b100 it would cost me $4.39/gallon
[18:46:45] <roycroft> but b99.9 is $3.39
[18:47:12] <jdh> it's good to be subsidized
[18:47:24] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/321172469980?_trksid=p2060778.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I need this...hehe
[18:47:26] <roycroft> i'm willing to burn the occasional dinosaur toenail to save $1/gallon
[18:47:49] <roycroft> i'd pay full price if the subsidy weren't there
[18:48:00] <roycroft> but i'm not going to neglect the subsidy if it's available
[18:48:12] <jdh> pete: for what?
[18:54:13] <SpeedEvil> It's jsut a pity that with current biofuel - not from waste oil - the energy may be negative
[18:54:19] <SpeedEvil> at the very best it's not a clear positive
[18:54:24] <roycroft> bioethanol, definitely
[18:54:27] <roycroft> but not the case with biodiesel
[18:54:33] <roycroft> it's carbon neutral and energy positive
[18:54:45] <roycroft> the ethanol subsidy is a bunch of crap
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[18:55:55] <roycroft> it's just pork for the corn states
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[18:58:04] <SpeedEvil> WVO is pure win
[18:58:22] <SpeedEvil> Plus - you can't quite simply count the energy cost of the corn and ...
[18:58:34] <SpeedEvil> you've also if you're subsidising it got to cost the cost of a subsidy dollar
[18:59:35] <roycroft> the oregon biodiesel subsidy is just a price incentive
[18:59:48] <roycroft> the issue with ethanol is the energy equation
[19:00:05] <roycroft> it generally takes more than a gallon of petroleum fuel to make a gallon of ethanol
[19:00:57] <roycroft> the fuel i buy is refined here in oregon
[19:01:01] <roycroft> some of it is waste oil
[19:01:05] <roycroft> but much of it is virgin oil
[19:01:20] <roycroft> the southern willamette valley is the grass seed capital of the country
[19:01:41] <roycroft> and the grass fields used to be plowed under and then burned and left fallow over the winter
[19:02:14] <roycroft> field burning has been mostly prohibited due to pollution generally, and huge multi-vehicle accidents on i5 when the burning took place
[19:02:50] <roycroft> now many of those farms grow rapeseed in the off season, which is a legume and therefore nitrogen fixer, and also provides oil seed for fuel
[19:03:20] <roycroft> because it's a nitrogen fixer the farmers use less fertilizer when they grow their grass seed crop
[19:03:34] <roycroft> and they don't consume fuel for field burning
[19:04:12] <roycroft> overall the equation is very favorable towards biodiesel
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[19:07:48] <mozmck> roycroft: that's interesting. I knew the ethanol con was only good for corn growers, but I hadn't heard much about biodiesel, or about rapeseed being nitrogen fixing etc.
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[19:10:14] <zeeshan> nope
[19:10:25] <zeeshan> manual fdisk use, t hen installing did not work.
[19:10:32] <zeeshan> it tries to recreate the partition in the partition manager
[19:11:24] <roycroft> it is interesting
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[19:11:44] <roycroft> and i do not see biodiesel, as we produce it now at least, as a mass replacement for petroleum-based fuels
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[19:12:01] <roycroft> it's a niche market that cannot scale well, but it works for me right now
[19:13:25] <_methods> roy your in oregon?
[19:13:42] <mozmck> no, plus, the petroleum reserves are far greater than is generally made out. It's mostly all politics and money.
[19:13:50] <_methods> family is all from myrtle point and remote
[19:14:03] <zeeshan> hey anyone whos installed the livecd before
[19:14:17] <zeeshan> when you just go to live cd, will it let you install it after youre booted up
[19:14:46] <mozmck> zeeshan: I think so, but I don't remember for sure. that is pretty typical though
[19:15:06] <JT-Shop> which livecd?
[19:15:38] <zeeshan> LinuxCNC 2.6.4
[19:15:41] <_methods> yes you can install after booting
[19:15:59] <zeeshan> okay ill try this time booting, getting in the os
[19:16:07] <JT-Shop> the Ubuntu 10.04 you can the Debian Wheezy you can not
[19:16:08] <zeeshan> and using gparted to partition and then install
[19:16:14] <_methods> you can always manually make all your partitions
[19:16:19] <zeeshan> oh JT-Shop..
[19:16:20] <_methods> then just copy everything over too
[19:16:37] <zeeshan> _methods it forces you to go through parititon manager during the install
[19:16:41] <_methods> make your partitions before you start
[19:16:44] <zeeshan> i did
[19:16:51] <zeeshan> i used fdisk to make a primary 83 and primary 82
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[19:17:00] <_methods> and that's it?
[19:17:03] <zeeshan> yea
[19:17:10] <_methods> waht about swap
[19:17:18] <zeeshan> 83 is my swap
[19:17:32] <zeeshan> type 82 i think linux
[19:17:33] <_methods> and you only have 1 other partition besides swap?
[19:17:36] <zeeshan> type 83 is linux swap
[19:17:40] <zeeshan> yes
[19:17:58] <_methods> so you're putting your whole install on /
[19:18:07] <zeeshan> yes
[19:18:31] <_methods> where's your boot partition?
[19:18:41] <zeeshan> that should be /
[19:19:45] <zeeshan> im gonna retry
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[19:20:35] <_methods> well if you can't install from a livecd you got some serious problems lol
[19:21:02] <cradek> picking the defaults using the debian cd has always worked for me
[19:21:14] <cradek> are you trying to do something custom?
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[19:26:45] <_methods> just install arch like a man
[19:28:05] <cradek> if it doesn't work for you, check hard disk settings in the bios? ahci should be on
[19:28:22] <cradek> legacy emulation stuff off
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[19:36:43] <gene78> hey guys, what the keystroke to kill a runaway file load? ctl+c isn't doing it
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[19:39:48] <zeeshan> cradek no
[19:39:59] <zeeshan> finally got an error in gparted
[19:40:04] <zeeshan> that gives more than a "FAILED"
[19:40:05] <zeeshan> http://pastebin.com/XjNN6cf7
[19:40:50] <zeeshan> i think this is the doing of the SATA to IDE converter.
[19:40:56] <zeeshan> it worked fine in 10.04 though.
[19:41:17] <cradek> hardware bad? bogus virus protection turned on in the bios?
[19:41:23] <zeeshan> nahh
[19:41:26] <zeeshan> i think its hardware
[19:41:29] <zeeshan> the stupid sata to ide converter
[19:41:31] <cradek> the what who converter?
[19:41:42] <mozmck> gene78: I don't know if there is one for that in particular - try the power button on the front of the computer :)
[19:41:53] <zeeshan> http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004LCDZT6/ref=asc_df_B004LCDZT63458051?smid=A284PRV19Y1MTF&tag=pgmp-423-97-20&linkCode=df0&creative=395109&creativeASIN=B004LCDZT6
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[19:41:54] <zeeshan> that stuff
[19:42:12] <zeeshan> i think im gonna just go pick up another motherboard
[19:42:15] <zeeshan> that has sata
[19:42:29] <zeeshan> it just sucks that it worked with 10.04
[19:42:47] <mozmck> I would think that was a good thing!
[19:43:03] <mozmck> ;)
[19:43:11] <zeeshan> it is a good thing
[19:43:22] <zeeshan> maybe i should just go back to 2.5.4
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[19:47:18] <cradek> you can sure run 2.6 on lucid
[19:47:41] <cradek> even with that weird converter, you should still check your ahci settings
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[19:49:41] <mozmck> I wonder how long until the debian jessie release? Looks like it has way less release-critical bugs than the current stable branch:
https://bugs.debian.org/release-critical/
[19:52:14] <andypugh> I wonder why so many CAM companies are in the UK? So far I think that Dolphin, Delcam, SheetCAM and CamBam are all based here.
[19:52:28] <andypugh> It’s not like we make anything in the UK any more.
[19:53:38] <andypugh> I wonder why we both started our questions with “I wonder” ?
[19:54:21] <zeeshan> whatr was that mobo pcw recommended
[19:54:29] <zeeshan> not the d525
[19:54:31] <zeeshan> it was some celeron
[20:02:19] <mozmck> andypugh: maybe because the countries now doing most of the "making" are not capable of doing the designing :)
[20:04:20] <andypugh> zeeshan:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132104&cm_re=j1800-_-13-132-104-_-Product
[20:07:56] <zeeshan> no serial port :/
[20:08:13] <zeeshan> i do see a header option for it though
[20:08:27] <CaptHindsight> http://linuxgizmos.com/tiny-fanless-mini-pc-runs-linux-on-quad-core-amd-soc/ $129 for the base version, might be nice with hm2_eth
[20:08:28] <zeeshan> this is so weird. i reinstalled 2.5.4 fine.
[20:08:41] <zeeshan> my computer for some reason does not like debian
[20:08:46] <zeeshan> but gparted has nothing to do with that.
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[20:17:42] <andypugh> CaptHindsight: 8 GPIOs could make it a nice little home automation server.
[20:17:49] <andypugh> (for small homes :-)
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[20:20:26] <CaptHindsight> andypugh: they toggle pretty quick, several hundred Khz with read, modify, write
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[20:20:59] <zeeshan-mill> is there anyway to check version in halrun
[20:22:11] <andypugh> There again, what does it offer that the NCBox doesn’t? And that has two parrports:
http://www.roboard.com/ncbox-189.html
[20:23:38] <CaptHindsight> similar just vortex86 (486ish core) vs APU
[20:23:51] <zeeshan-mill> help help!
[20:23:57] <zeeshan-mill> actual servo period
[20:24:01] <zeeshan-mill> is that based off max jitter
[20:24:09] <andypugh> Nice perk: I am currently installing Autodesk Inventor and HSM Express for free as a side-effect of my empoyer having a license :-)
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[20:24:37] <andypugh> zeeshan: No, I think it is just an integer number of base periods
[20:24:50] <andypugh> Does the value actually change?
[20:25:07] <zeeshan-mill> yea you can set to whatever in pncconf
[20:25:50] <zeeshan-mill> ill leave it to default :P
[20:25:58] <andypugh> Oh, I thought you were talking about a HAL parameter!
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[20:29:07] <zeeshan-mill> number of smart serial ports
[20:29:08] <zeeshan-mill> should be 0?
[20:29:10] <zeeshan-mill> not using any
[20:29:28] <zeeshan-mill> this pncconf is fancy
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[20:33:16] <andypugh> zeeshan: If you are using a 7i76 or 7i77 then there is no harm in enabling the SS port, the pins are not useful for anything else (I don’t thnk).
[20:33:40] <andypugh> If you are _not_ using those boards, and want the pins for GPIO, then disable it.
[20:33:41] <zeeshan-mill> okay
[20:33:49] <zeeshan-mill> so i choose firmware 7i77x2 with one 7i77
[20:33:50] <JT-Shop> must be 80F in here... sweating
[20:34:04] <zeeshan-mill> number of encoders 6, number of pwmgen 0, number of step gen 0, num serial ports 1.
[20:34:08] <zeeshan-mill> total # of pins 34 ?
[20:34:15] <JT-Shop> you need to choose what matches your 5i25 firmware
[20:34:20] <zeeshan-mill> number of channels 3
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[20:34:27] <zeeshan-mill> how do i tell
[20:34:53] <andypugh> Ah, 7i77 uses smart-serial for GPIO and (I think) for analogue outputs. So enable all SmartSerial.
[20:35:22] <zeeshan-mill> ah okay
[20:35:53] <andypugh> Actually, I changed my mind again :-)
[20:36:23] <andypugh> All the _channels_ on a single 5i25 header share a _port_
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[20:38:55] <malcom2073> Wooo, that heater gets really hot really fast
[20:40:07] <zeeshan-mill> nice
[20:40:14] <zeeshan-mill> if p is set to one
[20:40:19] <zeeshan-mill> id, ff0-2 = 0
[20:40:25] <zeeshan-mill> bias 0 deadband 0
[20:40:27] <zeeshan-mill> max output 10
[20:40:33] <zeeshan-mill> it wont be in closed loop right? :)
[20:41:50] <andypugh> P is enough to be closed-loop
[20:42:12] <zeeshan-mill> see its not current velocity tuned yet at thed rive
[20:42:19] <zeeshan-mill> i just want to use linuxcnc to manually trigger the enable
[20:42:21] <zeeshan-mill> so i can tune the drive
[20:42:45] <zeeshan-mill> and watch it in hal scope
[20:43:02] <zeeshan-mill> thats why i want it to be in open loop for position
[20:43:21] <andypugh> Hmm.
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[20:44:04] <andypugh> Assuming that the PID is position-command and position-feedback, and the PID is enabled, then it will be closed-loop with any P gain. (but probably badly tuned)
[20:44:34] <zeeshan-mill> andypugh, do you know what lines of code i need to make halrun work
[20:44:42] <zeeshan-mill> right now 7i77 is inwatch dog failure
[20:44:49] <zeeshan-mill> so i cant trigger outputs either which i need to test
[20:45:07] <andypugh> From halrun I do
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[20:45:09] <andypugh> halrun
[20:45:15] <andypugh> loadrt hostmot2
[20:45:21] <andypugh> loadrt hm2_pci
[20:45:25] <andypugh> loadrt threads
[20:45:29] <zeeshan-mill> ok i see pins
[20:45:41] <zeeshan-mill> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.output-00
[20:45:42] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.0.read thread1
[20:45:50] <zeeshan-mill> i hope that physically refers to output 0.
[20:45:51] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.0.write thread1
[20:46:03] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.pet-watchdog thread1
[20:46:05] <andypugh> start
[20:46:34] <andypugh> loadrt pid
[20:46:36] <andypugh> addf..
[20:46:54] <andypugh> Probably best to actually “source” your HAL file or close facsimile thereof
[20:47:09] <andypugh> Otherwise the typing gets really tedious
[20:47:21] <andypugh> As you can probably tell by how I could rattle it off by rote
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[20:48:00] <zeeshan-mill> HAL: ERROR: function 'hm2_5i25.pet-watchdog' not found
[20:48:06] <zeeshan-mill> i cant believe you have it memorized
[20:48:06] <zeeshan-mill> haha
[20:48:15] <zeeshan-mill> seems like youve typed it enough
[20:48:57] <andypugh> Use tab-completion to get the watchdog function name
[20:49:15] <zeeshan-mill> ok .0. was missing
[20:49:15] <andypugh> so addf hm[tab] [tab]
[20:50:02] <zeeshan-mill> youre the man.
[20:50:05] <zeeshan-mill> im out of watchdog failure
[20:50:12] <zeeshan-mill> getting the 1hz flashing green light now
[20:50:27] <zeeshan-mill> im gonna save this routine
[20:50:31] <zeeshan-mill> great for diagnosis
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[20:51:30] <andypugh> You know you have an eBay problem when things arrive and you have no idea what they are going to be until you open them
[20:51:31] <zeeshan-mill> ok looks like PID component is the pid controller
[20:51:39] <zeeshan-mill> haha
[20:51:41] <zeeshan-mill> what did you order
[20:51:49] <andypugh> Today’s surprise was a packet of gold leaf
[20:52:14] <zeeshan-mill> YAY
[20:52:16] <zeeshan-mill> RELAYS CLICKING
[20:53:09] <furrywolf> andy: it's like just christmas, but all year 'round.
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[20:53:46] <_methods> yeah chinese xmas presents all year lol
[20:54:06] <_methods> ooooh a box of led's llol
[20:54:14] <_methods> i don't remember ordering that
[20:54:34] <furrywolf> and, at least for me, I end up buying all my own presents anyway, so it really is just like christmas.
[20:54:56] <andypugh> I thought this was a good price (and I have a clock face to re-gild)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/331432675691
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[20:56:02] <andypugh> furrywolf: I had the opposite problem, I suggested to someone that I could use a new kettle as mine leaks. So for 3 months I had to live with a leaky kettle in case someone bought me one. And they didn’t.
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[20:57:31] <furrywolf> "24ct gold. These leaves are not as damageable as pure natural gold" so... their 24kt gold is not pure gold? :P
[20:57:44] <SpeedEvil> Fixing kettles is gneerally doable
[20:57:53] <furrywolf> how the heck does a kettle leak, and why haven't you brazed it yet? heh
[20:58:12] <SpeedEvil> generally because some idiot put a water level indicator on it
[20:58:39] <furrywolf> ok, we have different definitions of "kettle", methinks.
[20:59:25] <furrywolf> a kettle is a vessel for heating water, usually these days made of a single piece of stainless steel.
[20:59:40] <furrywolf> with a welded-on spout
[21:00:07] <furrywolf> old ones could be cast iron or copper...
[21:00:42] <furrywolf> these aren't things that get water level sensors, or tend to leak unless cracked...
[21:01:35] <jdh> I had a kettle that held 15k kgs of polymer
[21:01:45] <SpeedEvil> In the UK, electric kettles are a thing
[21:01:57] <SpeedEvil> this is because the plug can actually do 3kW reasonably
[21:02:23] <jdh> and by "had" I really mean "wrote code for"
[21:03:35] <furrywolf> in the uk, tea is a thing too, which is probably also related.
[21:05:24] <zeeshan-mill> hmm
[21:05:31] <zeeshan-mill> asap i press the trigger button for hydraulic solenoid
[21:05:36] <zeeshan-mill> 7i77 goes in limp mode again
[21:05:49] <zeeshan-mill> halcmd: setp vfd2.run 1
[21:05:49] <zeeshan-mill> halcmd: setp hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.output-00 1
[21:05:53] <andypugh> I resisted buying the WiFi enabled kettle :-)
http://9to5mac.com/2014/08/06/review-ikettle-the-iphone-controlled-kettle-for-gadget-loving-tea-drinkers/
[21:06:04] <zeeshan-mill> basically output 00 latches a relay
[21:06:14] <zeeshan-mill> whos switch is in series with a tool change request button
[21:06:45] <furrywolf> I have a kettle somewhere... it sits on a stove. :P
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[21:08:06] <SpeedEvil> furrywolf: I keep meaning to make a solar boiling water dispenser
[21:08:20] <SpeedEvil> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Giant-Action-Airpot-litre-capacity/dp/B001MX9D6G has a heat leak of 4W
[21:08:34] <SpeedEvil> dump heat into this from a panel
[21:09:00] <furrywolf> that requires sun.
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[21:09:29] <zeeshan-mill> z brake disable works woohoo
[21:09:39] <andypugh> zeeshan-mill: open a second terminal and tail -f /var/log/kernel.log
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[21:12:12] <zeeshan-mill> kern.log?
[21:13:16] <zeeshan-mill> ok
[21:13:22] <zeeshan-mill> asap i press the tool change switch it spits out this:
[21:15:14] <zeeshan-mill> this comp is a bit slow :)
[21:15:30] <zeeshan-mill> http://pastebin.com/Fi3LSRnE
[21:16:59] <PCW> lost 7I77 24V or 5V probably
[21:17:57] <andypugh> Seemslikely that the switch is shorting power to gnd...
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[21:19:34] <zeeshan-mill> http://i.imgur.com/Fwg116l.png
[21:19:38] <zeeshan-mill> very first relay
[21:19:41] <zeeshan-mill> h06
[21:19:44] <zeeshan-mill> k06.
[21:19:59] <zeeshan-mill> is it cause i have input 11 chilling there
[21:22:37] <PCW> an input cannot cause a short
[21:23:04] <zeeshan-mill> im looking at my wiring again
[21:23:45] <PCW> maybe diode is backwards on hydraulic solenoid
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[21:26:59] <zeeshan-mill> i need to shut down power to this to diagnose
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[21:38:05] <furrywolf> you need to power down, I need to power things up... still need to build a box/frame for my power supply.
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[21:46:17] <zeeshan> when i probee between K and A
[21:46:20] <zeeshan> as showin in the circuit
[21:46:25] <zeeshan> i get no voltage passing through.
[21:46:36] <zeeshan> when i measure from A to K , i get 0.6 V
[21:46:39] <zeeshan> is that correct?
[21:47:20] <andypugh> The numbers seem right, but I can’t remember which terminal is which.
[21:47:28] <zeeshan> you know what
[21:47:32] <zeeshan> ill try with no diode in there
[21:47:38] <zeeshan> and see if i get same error
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[21:57:21] <mrsun> zeeshan: what is that schematic drawn in ?
[21:57:52] <zeeshan-mill> diptrace
[21:57:55] <zeeshan-mill> okay guys
[21:58:02] <zeeshan-mill> i removed the diode. it didnt do anything
[21:58:04] <zeeshan-mill> same error
[21:58:15] <zeeshan-mill> what if the solenoid polarity matters
[21:58:18] <zeeshan-mill> will that cause this issue?
[22:00:03] <PCW> can you run the solenoid directly from the 24V?
[22:00:18] <zeeshan-mill> yea i have tested it before
[22:00:22] <zeeshan-mill> i just swapped polarity
[22:01:16] <zeeshan-mill> oaky
[22:01:18] <zeeshan-mill> that was the problem lol
[22:01:22] <zeeshan-mill> solenoid polarity.
[22:01:34] <PCW> built in diode...
[22:01:38] <zeeshan-mill> really?
[22:01:48] <zeeshan-mill> there was no diode shown in the schematic
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[22:03:32] <PCW> must be, wire doesn't have a polarity
[22:03:35] <zeeshan-mill> yea
[22:03:44] <zeeshan-mill> Z brake is being weird now
[22:03:51] <zeeshan-mill> even when the entire system was powered down
[22:03:56] <zeeshan-mill> its fairly easy to rotate
[22:04:06] <furrywolf> easy enough to test... power it up from a current-limited supply, say a suitable light bulb in series with the power, and see if it's normal in one direction and 0.7V in the other direction...
[22:04:09] <zeeshan-mill> before it never used to be like that
[22:04:18] <furrywolf> could also be a melted winding shorted to frame ground
[22:04:18] <zeeshan-mill> furrywolf, im gonna check with multimeter in a sec
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[22:04:53] <PCW> Check that 24V is still 24V
[22:05:02] <furrywolf> if it's shorted near one end of the winding, could work when that end is ground, and fail when that end is power.
[22:05:22] <PCW> Brake may be stuck
[22:05:35] <PCW> and need some exercise
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[22:06:56] <Deejay> gn8
[22:07:01] <zeeshan-mill> yep 24 v is 24.3 v currently
[22:07:10] <zeeshan-mill> PCW, exercise how?
[22:07:14] <zeeshan-mill> BFH?
[22:07:30] <zeeshan-mill> these 24vdc relays are kinda nice
[22:07:34] <zeeshan-mill> they have lights so you can diagnose
[22:07:41] <zeeshan-mill> didnt even know :)
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[22:07:58] <furrywolf> zeeshan: any conductivity between the coil terminals and chasis ground?
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[22:08:13] <zeeshan-mill> which coil
[22:08:17] <zeeshan-mill> solenoid or brake
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[22:08:58] <furrywolf> the one that causes it to not work if you hook it up the other way around
[22:09:36] <zeeshan-mill> brb gonnacheck
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[22:10:37] <bobo_> zeeshan hyd solenoid may have diode on coil terminals, as should the schematis bottom 4 coils
[22:10:47] <furrywolf> as to the brake, as pcw said, exercise it. clicking it on and off a bunch of times is a good start. if that fails, see if it needs BFHing and/or rust removal. (or new friction material, depending on design)
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[22:13:01] <furrywolf> bbl, working on cars
[22:13:48] <bobo_> zeeshan vertical axis brake------think of it as being like auto air cond freon pump and pumps on/off electro clutch
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[22:15:57] <bobo_> vert axis brake may need clearance re-adjusted
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[22:17:26] <zeeshan_> hyd solenoid: 17 ohms in both directions
[22:17:29] <zeeshan_> 0v in both direction
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[22:17:35] <zeeshan_> no idea why it is polarity sensitive.
[22:17:50] <zeeshan_> no continuity between coil and chassis
[22:18:38] <bobo_> if you take it apart -----look at carbon brush on motor and tack
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[22:19:21] <zeeshan_> hyd solenoid works with diode hooked back up
[22:19:25] <zeeshan_> bobo okay i will
[22:19:27] <zeeshan_> this thing is like 100lb
[22:19:31] <zeeshan_> takes time :)
[22:20:17] <bobo_> can you see hyd sold terminals-----may have sort of a Mov
[22:20:20] <zeeshan_> lubricator works
[22:20:34] <zeeshan_> bobo_ not really
[22:20:40] <zeeshan_> hey it works so let it be :)
[22:21:08] <zeeshan_> ive never taken apart a servo before
[22:21:13] <zeeshan_> is the brake on the side of the tachometer?
[22:21:28] <zeeshan_> or it part of the main housing
[22:21:42] <bobo_> lub is not working untill oil is flowing on shop floor
[22:21:55] <zeeshan_> bobo_, haha
[22:22:01] <zeeshan_> it pissed everywhere
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[22:22:18] <zeeshan_> ill look at brake in abit
[22:22:22] <zeeshan_> i wanna move x and y first
[22:22:26] <bobo_> motor --tac---brake
[22:22:46] <zeeshan_> hmm bobo_ my tach is at the very end
[22:23:47] <bobo_> brake end cover on Maho
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[22:26:48] <bobo_> if you are running motors then tack polarity must be correct ?
[22:27:07] <zeeshan_> i dont know yet
[22:27:13] <zeeshan_> im gonna put the drives in test mode
[22:27:17] <andypugh> zeeshan: Some servos are ruined by being dismantled, so be careful
[22:27:19] <zeeshan_> and use 7i77 to enable
[22:27:31] <zeeshan_> andypugh, okay
[22:27:36] <andypugh> The poles act as “keepers” for the magnets, they are magetised in-situ
[22:27:55] <andypugh> That may be something from the olden days before rare-earth mangents though.
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[22:29:37] <andypugh> I have a nice servo that I want to remove the brake from, because it would be more useful were it shorter
[22:30:47] <bobo_> indramat DC motors with brake ----clean top cover of dirt then carefull remov top
[22:31:39] <bobo_> remov= remove
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[22:38:37] <bobo_> PetefromTn: was reading ----
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=185104---an thought you might be interested---he later also later on notes
[22:39:19] <bobo_> seiko watch stuff
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[22:40:10] <bobo_> that might be something you could do
[22:41:01] <bobo_> in your spare time
[22:41:20] <andypugh> What’s that?
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[22:41:26] <andypugh> (Spare time)
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[22:41:47] <malcom2073> Yanno... that time when your eyes are closed and you're laying down
[22:41:52] <malcom2073> That's spare, right?
[22:42:04] <bobo_> extra watches/clocks
[22:42:08] <Tom_itx> andypugh it' the time reserved for sleep but you're not using it for that
[22:43:58] <bobo_> acute dream deprivation ====laying down an eyes closed------------ADD
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[22:45:41] <bobo_> many school kids seem to have it----so I have been told
[22:45:58] <Tom_L> how far _have_ we come?
http://www.electronicproducts.com/Education/History/10_Old_school_computer_ads_that_prove_just_how_far_tech_has_come.aspx
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[22:46:36] <_methods> not far enough i still don't have my damn flying car
[22:48:48] <Tom_itx> 1200 baud modem the size of a desktop pc
[22:49:52] <zeeshan_> do i need pid comp running to enable drive
[22:50:09] <bobo_> methods socker mom's have them
[22:50:49] <_methods> really?
[22:51:10] <andypugh> zeeshan_: No, you can set the analogue outputs directly, but use small numbers so you have time to type in zero to stop it :-)
[22:51:36] <zeeshan_> haha
[22:51:40] <zeeshan_> andypugh, i just need to enable drive
[22:51:46] <zeeshan_> so ic an do velocity tuning
[22:51:56] <zeeshan_> i cant find the pin
[22:52:07] <Tom_itx> zeeshan remember that big red ESTOP button you installed?
[22:52:13] <Tom_itx> now's the time to see if it's wired right
[22:52:14] <zeeshan_> yes Tom_itx
[22:52:15] <zeeshan_> it works!
[22:52:25] <andypugh> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.0.analogout.00 ?
[22:52:56] <zeeshan_> andypugh, i was thinking that
[22:52:59] <zeeshan_> but its type float
[22:53:02] <zeeshan_> not bit
[22:53:02] <_methods> just make sure you insert your sphincter stop it reacts faster
[22:53:13] <zeeshan_> motors arent connectedto anything lol
[22:53:13] <andypugh> You can still setp a float
[22:53:24] <zeeshan_> andypugh, yes but its weird that a pin thats 0 and 1 is float
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[22:53:56] <andypugh> Eh?
[22:54:00] <zeeshan_> gonna try it anyway
[22:54:00] <zeeshan_> haha
[22:54:07] <andypugh> The analogout is the command voltage to the servo drive
[22:54:12] <zeeshan_> oh
[22:54:21] <zeeshan_> no i dont need that
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[22:54:53] <zeeshan_> the drive is in voltage mode
[22:55:01] <zeeshan_> so i can turn a pot and monitor the voltage output
[22:55:05] <zeeshan_> i have a multimeter hooked up
[22:55:13] <zeeshan_> thats the first procedure they list
[22:55:21] <zeeshan_> but i cant enable the drive cause its hooked up to 7i77
[22:56:14] <andypugh> You are in Halcmd?
[22:56:35] <andypugh> show signal *enable*
[22:56:49] <andypugh> _should_ show you where the enable is connected to
[22:57:17] <zeeshan_> ah
[22:57:19] <zeeshan_> its called
[22:57:23] <zeeshan_> loadrt hostmot2
[22:57:23] <zeeshan_> loadrt hm2_pci
[22:57:23] <zeeshan_> loadrt threads
[22:57:23] <zeeshan_> addf hm2_5i25.0.read thread1
[22:57:23] <zeeshan_> addf hm2_5i25.0.write thread1
[22:57:24] <zeeshan_> addf hm2_5i25.0.pet_watchdog thread1
[22:57:28] <zeeshan_> start
[22:57:30] <zeeshan_> er.
[22:57:32] <zeeshan_> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogena
[22:57:33] <andypugh> Then you can delete the signal and set the output pin
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[22:57:35] <zeeshan_> it enables everything in 1 go!
[22:58:19] <zeeshan_> im gonna have to disconnect power to other drives manually
[22:58:24] <andypugh> It’s sort-of fun hacking HAL at the command linelike this
[22:58:52] Loetmichel2 is now known as Loetmichel
[22:59:30] <zeeshan_> haha yea
[22:59:57] <zeeshan_> yep that did it
[23:00:06] <zeeshan_> hm2_5i25.0.7i77.0.1.analogena 1 enables everything
[23:00:12] <zeeshan_> and im GLAD i didnt have the motor hooked up
[23:00:20] <zeeshan_> volt meter saying 145V
[23:00:20] <zeeshan_> hahah
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[23:00:26] <PCW> all except channel 5
[23:02:31] <PCW> I _did_ tell you to power down the drives in initial testing.....
[23:02:49] <zeeshan_> pcw i know :)
[23:02:59] <zeeshan_> i removed power to all the drives except what im working on
[23:03:22] <PCW> verifying the encoders is first
[23:03:28] <zeeshan_> does my current limit stuff have to be tuned
[23:03:39] <zeeshan_> before i can perform velocity loop tuning of the drive
[23:03:49] <zeeshan_> PCW, i will hook up encoders when i do position loop tuning
[23:04:02] <zeeshan_> just trying to get vel tuning working first
[23:04:24] <zeeshan_> correct my if im wrong, but if vel tuning is completely wacky, then pos tuning will be impossible to do?
[23:04:38] <PCW> Yes
[23:05:04] <PCW> well not impossible but hard to do well
[23:05:14] <zeeshan_> also when analogout 01 is 0 for example
[23:05:32] <zeeshan_> er dubm question .. ignore this one
[23:05:33] <zeeshan_> :)
[23:06:21] <PCW> if you simply enable the drives (analog out set to 0 or just unplugged) they should hold position (and likely creep slowly)
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[23:06:46] <zeeshan_> okay
[23:07:00] <PCW> that is, they should resist changes in velocity
[23:07:44] <zeeshan_> okay wtf.
[23:07:52] <PCW> if they instantly run away (perhaps after a tiny push) the tachometer is backwards
[23:07:53] <bobo_> current limit may affect motor magnets if too high
[23:08:01] <zeeshan_> i followed this procedure of offsetting so motor outputs voltmeter measures 0 v at motor terminals
[23:08:06] <zeeshan_> i plug in motor
[23:08:09] <zeeshan_> and it runs like crazy
[23:08:41] <PCW> tachometer backwards maybe
[23:09:08] <zeeshan_> but i dont even have it in tachometer mode
[23:09:18] <zeeshan_> i have it in open loop voltage mode
[23:10:08] <PCW> the drive supports a plain voltage mode?
[23:10:40] <zeeshan_> it said "Set the drive in open loop mode"
[23:10:48] <zeeshan_> which means setting the mode to "duty cycle"
[23:10:51] <PCW> if in this mode you _must_ disconnect the tachometer
[23:10:57] <zeeshan_> OH
[23:11:08] <zeeshan_> whoops.
[23:12:36] <zeeshan_> haha that was it.
[23:12:45] <PCW> most analog drives are like this Iout = SS(tach+AIN)
[23:13:05] <PCW> where S is a lazy integral sign
[23:14:16] <andypugh> PCW: It has only just occurred to me to wonder this. Do you have a CNC machine of your own?
[23:14:39] <PCW> voltage mode probably removes the integrators but the out is still the sum of the analog input and the tachometer
[23:15:05] <PCW> No (well a tiny toy made from a wafer aligner)
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[23:18:45] <zeeshan_> pcw okay
[23:18:54] <zeeshan_> i set it back in tachometer mode
[23:19:03] <zeeshan_> and hooked up the motor and tacho. and it doesnt seem to be moving
[23:19:14] <zeeshan_> this means tachometer polarity is good?
[23:20:22] <andypugh> if you setp the analogout you should be able to make it move in any direction at a range of speeds
[23:20:48] <zeeshan_> okay
[23:20:52] <zeeshan_> i blew a fuse :/
[23:21:13] <zeeshan_> brb
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[23:32:56] <zeeshan_> if i had connected these motors to the machine
[23:33:00] <zeeshan_> i woulda crashed it like 10 times
[23:33:23] <zeeshan_> i set the drive to tachometer mode. enabled drive and it runs away
[23:33:42] <zeeshan_> Velocity feedback polarity. Changes the polarity of the internal
[23:33:42] <zeeshan_> feedback signal and the velocity monitor output signal. Inversion
[23:33:42] <zeeshan_> of the feedback polarity may be required to prevent a motor run-
[23:33:42] <zeeshan_> away condition.
[23:34:05] <zeeshan_> i flipped that switch
[23:34:18] <zeeshan_> still running away
[23:34:26] <andypugh> In the same direction?
[23:34:45] <andypugh> The command voltage is definitely zero?
[23:35:24] <zeeshan_> yea hal shows 0 output analog01
[23:35:46] <zeeshan_> i didnt check direction
[23:35:49] <zeeshan_> lemme check that now
[23:36:39] <roycroft> have any of you used the harbor freight end mills?
[23:36:58] <roycroft> i broke a 5/8" one and the only local machinset supplier wants $68 for an import
[23:37:06] <zeeshan_> yes andypugh in same direction
[23:37:07] <roycroft> i can get the 20 piece hf set for $64
[23:37:13] <zeeshan_> even after flipping that switch
[23:37:34] <_methods> carbide?
[23:37:37] <_methods> or hss?
[23:37:40] <roycroft> hss
[23:37:50] <roycroft> i can get an import from enco for about $20
[23:37:53] <roycroft> but i need one rigth now
[23:38:03] <PetefromTn_> got a fastenal nearby?
[23:38:05] <roycroft> no
[23:38:16] <roycroft> there's just one shop in town for tooling
[23:38:18] <andypugh> zeeshan_: While it is running away, does it respond to an analogue output/
[23:38:23] <roycroft> and besides their prices they are jerks
[23:38:24] <_methods> that sux
[23:38:34] <PetefromTn_> who?
[23:38:40] <roycroft> it's not a chain
[23:38:41] <_methods> you don't have any local distributors?
[23:38:46] <roycroft> western machine supply
[23:38:46] <Tom_itx> roycroft, they know they're the only one...
[23:38:52] <_methods> grainger?
[23:39:00] <roycroft> i once bought a 4" machinist's vise from them for about $120
[23:39:09] <roycroft> when i brought it home i discovered a big crack in the casting
[23:39:31] <roycroft> i brought it back and they said "no returns on chinese stuff - you get what you pay for with that junk"
[23:39:43] <roycroft> i actually haven't been there since
[23:39:51] <roycroft> grainger and i don't get along
[23:39:57] <roycroft> they refuse to set up an account for me
[23:40:06] <roycroft> because i refuse to give them a state tax id number
[23:40:09] <roycroft> because i don't have one
[23:40:09] <zeeshan_> andypugh, did not try that
[23:40:19] <roycroft> because my state does not issue them
[23:40:22] <_methods> no local machine shops?
[23:40:24] <roycroft> federal tax id does not count
[23:40:25] <_methods> they might let you buy one
[23:40:27] <Rab> roycroft, the HF end mills I've seen in person have been horrifying. Like, visibly bad finish. They might work for wood but I wouldn't expect anything more.
[23:40:28] <roycroft> they want the state thing
[23:40:34] <roycroft> hmm
[23:40:41] <andypugh> roycroft: You could lie
[23:40:50] <_methods> hell they might even give you one if you bring a 12 pack
[23:41:03] <roycroft> oregon does not have state tax id numbers because we don't have sales tax
[23:41:25] <andypugh> <non-sequiter>
[23:41:40] <roycroft> i tried explaining this to grainger, and gave them my federal tax id number, but they rejected it and said i need the state number to prove i'm exempt from sales tax, which does not exist
[23:41:48] <roycroft> i've tried this serveral times over the years
[23:41:57] <Rab> roycroft, tried going in person?
[23:42:01] <roycroft> there is a grainger here, but i don't know how people buy from them
[23:42:16] <roycroft> no, i actually haven't
[23:42:16] <_methods> i just walk in
[23:42:17] <Rab> Grainger sells to the general public. You can walk in with cash.
[23:42:18] <_methods> and pay cash lol
[23:42:20] <roycroft> the local folks may have a clue
[23:42:34] <zeeshan_> okay that switch didnt do anything
[23:42:40] <zeeshan_> i had to physically turn the switch myself.
[23:42:47] <zeeshan_> now when i enable, it slowly is drifting
[23:43:04] <Rab> I don't know if you can order from the website without an account, but you can place a phone order as an individual.
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[23:43:32] <roycroft> $47.55 on the grainger website
[23:43:39] <zeeshan_> andypugh, it responds!
[23:43:42] <roycroft> not quite $60, but certainly not enco prices
[23:43:44] <_methods> yeah grainger is last resort
[23:43:48] <zeeshan_> when i tell it analog01 = 1.25
[23:43:51] <zeeshan_> it stops drifting
[23:43:58] <_methods> i try not to buy anything from grainger unless i have to
[23:44:00] <bobo_> zeeshan is tach really outputting a voltage on a meter ?
[23:44:02] <zeeshan_> since its drifting, this means i need to do velocity tuning?
[23:44:09] <zeeshan_> bobo it was earlier
[23:44:13] <zeeshan_> when you spin the motor
[23:44:13] <Rab> Just a warning, Grainger often doesn't seem to have a good inventory on hand. So while they can ship pretty quickly from another store or warehouse, they might not have machine tooling you can walk out with. Better off calling first.
[23:44:22] <roycroft> well 1/2" end mill and boring bar may do the trick
[23:44:28] <andypugh> You might want to set output to zero then tweak the pot again. Though your earlier test should ahve done that.
[23:44:30] <roycroft> but that's a lot more machining
[23:44:40] <_methods> i'd try hitting a local machine shop
[23:44:43] <zeeshan_> andypugh, that was just offset
[23:44:49] <_methods> that's a common size end mill
[23:44:50] <roycroft> yeah, i might do that - there are a few nearby
[23:44:51] <zeeshan_> and i did do it earlier
[23:44:56] <andypugh> Isn’t that the same thing?
[23:44:58] <zeeshan_> to stop it from rotating. but that was in open loop mode.
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[23:45:03] <zeeshan_> now its in closedloop mode
[23:45:11] <zeeshan_> so there might be some silly gain thats setup somewhere
[23:45:16] <andypugh> I am only geussing what adjustments you have
[23:45:19] <zeeshan_> throwing it off
[23:45:24] <zeeshan_> andypugh, have you used amc drives?
[23:45:26] <zeeshan_> its whati have
[23:45:33] <Rab> _methods, or maybe even an engine rebuilding shop. 12-pack might be a good approach there.
[23:45:41] <andypugh> No. I have only ever used Mesa drives.
[23:45:45] <_methods> yeah either one a 12pack will get you far lol
[23:46:08] <_methods> i know if you show up to my shop with doughnuts or beer your odds of assistance increase dramatically
[23:46:14] <zeeshan_> ah okay
[23:46:24] <zeeshan_> i think im at a point wherei can set the true current limits for the servo
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[23:46:33] <zeeshan_> and ill follow the procedure in the manual
[23:48:35] <zeeshan_> this servo stuff is a lot more complex :/
[23:48:54] <Tom_itx> heh
[23:49:56] <zeeshan_> need to eat. will tune after :P
[23:50:38] <PCW> but luckily most servo systems are very similar so once you get familiar they are almost all pretty much the same
[23:51:47] <JT-Shop> first burn
http://imagebin.ca/v/1oAWizKcJBMV
[23:52:19] <_methods> adding oxy?
[23:52:22] <PCW> Looks good! for casting?
[23:52:44] <JT-Shop> yea, working out the details for the burner
[23:52:54] <_methods> nice
[23:52:58] <JT-Shop> thanks
[23:53:13] <JT-Shop> was a ceiling fan hanger tube lol
[23:53:42] <Rab> heh
[23:53:50] <Rab> I'm guessing it's brass-covered steel?
[23:54:12] <andypugh> Wouldn’t Tantalum be better?
[23:54:22] <Rab> s/covered/colored
[23:55:03] <andypugh> I can’t decide between making some parts I am making by machining from solid, or learning to cast brass.
[23:55:19] <andypugh> As I only need two, i am tending towards machining.
[23:55:19] <Rab> Ceiling fan downrods seem to be polished plumbing pipe, from what I've seen.
[23:55:23] <roycroft> yay
[23:55:33] <roycroft> a local machine shop is willing to sell me one for $36
[23:55:45] <Rab> Nice!
[23:55:47] <roycroft> yes
[23:55:56] <roycroft> i need to stock spares though
[23:55:58] <andypugh> A what?
[23:56:03] <roycroft> this was almost an unhappy moment
[23:56:08] <JT-Shop> that's what I'm heading for casting yellow brass
[23:56:10] <roycroft> 5/8" two flute m2 end mill
[23:56:24] <andypugh> I buy used ones from eBay.
[23:56:30] <roycroft> i broke one
[23:56:33] <roycroft> i need it replaced now
[23:56:38] <roycroft> as in i'm walking out the door
[23:56:40] <roycroft> ciaoder!
[23:56:46] <_methods> good luck
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[23:59:58] <andypugh> eeeew!
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Straight-Shank-2-Flutes-End-Mill-Milling-Cutter-5mm-x-5mm-x-15mm-x-40mm-5pcs-/121260862810
