#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-10-08

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[00:01:40] <ReadError> pong
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[00:07:56] <r00t4rd3d> i think im gonna buy a tslot bit and make my own spoil boards
[00:08:14] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_keyhl.html
[00:11:21] <ReadError> you going to use a hand router to do it?
[00:11:24] <ReadError> or do it on the mill
[00:12:22] <r00t4rd3d> probably on the machine but just turn it on and push them through so I can get the entire length
[00:14:49] <ReadError> or make it in 2 pieces
[00:15:51] <r00t4rd3d> im going to but width not length wise
[00:17:00] <r00t4rd3d> gonna go start another panel for my latest paradise box...
[00:22:55] <jdh> Jim: know anything about a Haskel AG30?
[00:22:59] <jdh> <urk>
[00:23:28] <Jymmm> ?
[00:23:46] <andypugh> Sounds like a programming language. Does that make me a geek?
[00:24:05] <jdh> wrong channel, it isn't, you are.
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[00:24:41] <Jymmm> Ok, who turns firearm parts?
[00:24:47] <jdh> your's as two L's
[00:25:26] <jdh> and an overabundance of 's
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[00:28:53] <pcw_home> "wrong channel, it isn't, you are."
[00:28:55] <pcw_home> is this the Yoda channel?
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[00:33:14] <Tecan> Rocket about to launch: http://new.livestream.com/accounts/142499/events/1579124/videos/4573601
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[01:02:33] <djdelorie> is there any magic, other than G53, to use absolute coordinates in a gcode file (rather than the touch-off origin) ?
[01:03:52] <Tom_itx> G90
[01:04:28] <djdelorie> does that affect the origin, or just the interpretation of the coordinates?
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[01:04:49] <djdelorie> what i want is to write some gcode that re-drills new table tops for the cnc machine itself, so the coordinates are always relative to the home switches
[01:05:01] <Tom_itx> i don't think it changes the origin, rather how it calculates the next move
[01:05:09] <Tom_itx> G91 is from the previous position
[01:05:18] <Tom_itx> G90 is absolute
[01:05:26] <djdelorie> not the kind of "absolute" I was thinking of
[01:05:44] <Tom_itx> k
[01:05:54] <tjb1> Thats amazing, youtube can detect a video is "shaky" and fix it
[01:06:03] <djdelorie> I think I want one of the G92 options, but it's not obvious which/how
[01:06:19] <Tom_itx> tjb1, it does a horrible job
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[01:06:55] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Um, you just want to slap on a blank, bolt it down, and have a grid of holes drilled referenced off the homing switches?
[01:07:05] <djdelorie> Jymmm: yes
[01:07:14] <djdelorie> except the "bolt it down" holes are what I'm drilling
[01:07:36] <djdelorie> so they have to line up with the holes under the blank
[01:07:49] <Jymmm> make slots
[01:08:11] <Jymmm> then youhave a fudge factor
[01:08:17] <djdelorie> i also want to be able to mill the shims in the "under" so that the table will be as close to 'flat" when it's attached
[01:08:26] <djdelorie> it's a lot of holes
[01:08:36] <tjb1> Tom_itx: It didnt do too bad a job
[01:08:42] <Jymmm> I mean the mounting holes, make those slots
[01:08:42] <djdelorie> and I have this cnc machine I can use for it... ;-)
[01:09:22] <Jymmm> so do I, and those mounting holes are a pita =)
[01:10:00] <djdelorie> I still need to be able to mill the shims down flat anyway, adding "oh, and drill my holes for me" is trivial once I figure that step out ;-)
[01:10:17] <Jymmm> djdelorie: if you plan on making a lot of spoiler boards, I'd suggest making alignment jigs for the blank
[01:10:43] <Jymmm> that was the biggest time consumer I found
[01:11:00] <djdelorie> this isn't the spoiler board, this is the table top. When I'm milling through the wood, I put another board between them
[01:11:27] <djdelorie> when I take the top off, you can see all the mechanicals and electronics
[01:11:33] <Jymmm> Me too, one on top of the other so I dont have to make different things
[01:11:51] <Jymmm> ah, my guts are in a box elsewhere
[01:12:08] <djdelorie> i.e. the machine with the top's frame but without the top looks like this: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2525.html
[01:12:26] <tjb1> Here is the spiral program run on my table - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4eNtVOPlAg
[01:13:01] <djdelorie> I want to glue some strips on top of those vertical boards, use the cnc to mill them to the same Z height and pre-drill starter holes for the screws, then drill holes and countersinks on the plywood top to match
[01:13:58] <djdelorie> tjb1: you can tell it uses steppers. "wheeoo wheeoo wheeoo" :-) That sound just doesn't happen elsewhere...
[01:14:06] <tjb1> Yep :)
[01:14:23] <djdelorie> servos don't make that sound either...
[01:14:47] <djdelorie> and I note you made a pen holder for your machine too :-)
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[01:16:16] <tjb1> Ah yes, good old black tape
[01:16:31] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Just a thought... you might want to add some additional vertical bracing on your spindle mount http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2537.html
[01:16:34] <djdelorie> I used gravity instead so I wouldn't break the pencil: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2597.html
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[01:17:35] <tjb1> djdelorie: The part the sharpie is attached to is floating but it is a little sticky because I dont have all the screws for it
[01:18:23] <tjb1> and I didnt spend a lot of time making sure it was aligned when I put it back together
[01:20:15] <Jymmm> djdelorie: http://www.ebay.com/itm/VELOX-CNC-Router-Mount-Porter-Cable-892-690-Bosch-Dewalt-K2-CNC-Specs-/380471147205?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5895d8fac5
[01:22:37] <djdelorie> Jymmm: no need, the holes fit so well the router itself acts as a support. Plus, the whole carriage has more slop in it than the router brackets
[01:23:00] <djdelorie> tjb1: gravity vs slop... works either way! :-)
[01:23:23] <Jymmm> djdelorie: IT's going to have the most force placed upon it as well.
[01:23:33] <tjb1> Well the tape didnt let it move up and down
[01:23:37] <djdelorie> Jymmm: I don't need to spend $83 on something i can make from scrap anyway
[01:24:56] <djdelorie> wood routing forces tend to be sideways, not up and down. I already have to limit my Z speed because the whole carriage rocks if I move it too fast. I.e. it twists around the Y axis
[01:25:10] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Don't get cocky with me young lady! If you start having dips/valleys at the initial plunge, suspect the mount.
[01:25:14] <djdelorie> but it's "good enough" for my purposes, especially since it's built out of plywood :-)
[01:25:42] <Jymmm> errr dips/peaks
[01:25:56] <djdelorie> Jymmm: I'm not female, nor young, and have lots of dips/peaks with the initial plunge. I have to limit Z speed because of that
[01:26:45] <djdelorie> my Z rails are pretty wimpy, too.
[01:27:10] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2533.html
[01:27:25] <tjb1> What are your z rails?
[01:27:38] <djdelorie> some alumimum rod stock inside bits of copper pipe
[01:27:46] <tjb1> I see the problem
[01:27:48] <Jymmm> I saw what you have, and my only comment is on the spindle mount; I feel you can get away with everything else.
[01:27:58] <tjb1> Plywood :P
[01:28:20] <djdelorie> the whole machine is a hack made of scrap and surplus, so I could learn how to make it. I suspect it's primary purpose is to build a better cnc machine ;-)
[01:28:30] <tjb1> Can it work aluminum?
[01:28:37] <djdelorie> Jymmm: I understand, but in practice, the spindle mount is much more rigid than the Z rails
[01:28:51] <djdelorie> tjb1: I don't know. In theory, yes, but I don't have any aluminum to work with.
[01:29:04] <Jymmm> djdelorie: even under plunge force?
[01:29:07] <tjb1> You made your own drivers?
[01:29:27] <djdelorie> Jymmm: I don't plunge with this machine, most of my router bits don't work well plunging.
[01:29:29] <djdelorie> tlb1: Yes
[01:29:39] <Jymmm> djdelorie: ah, ok.
[01:29:50] <tjb1> Wish I was that smart :P
[01:30:07] <djdelorie> when I do drilling or pcb work, I use a different spindle anyway: http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2605.html
[01:30:09] <Jymmm> djdelorie: I use CMT 1/4" spiral upcut and plunge without any issues fwiw
[01:30:48] <djdelorie> tjb1: the electonics was easy, I do embedded development stuff for a living. It's the CNC mechanics that were the big learning curve for me
[01:31:25] <djdelorie> I have some up and down spiral bits but I try to avoid pure plunging, and when I do, I just go slow
[01:31:35] <Jymmm> djdelorie: =)
[01:32:03] <djdelorie> the router bracket fits so perfectly around that, like I said, the router itself acts as a brace.
[01:32:19] <Jymmm> djdelorie: down works good if you are cutting small parts as the sawdust packs in the piece in and keeps it from moving around =)
[01:32:28] <tjb1> djdelorie: I find the designing easy and electronics a headache :)
[01:32:51] <djdelorie> Jymmm: and down avoids splintering around the edges, too.
[01:32:58] <r00t-Shed> i think its both easy :D
[01:33:24] <djdelorie> r00t-Shed: are you talking about hooking up electronics, or designing the circuits from scratch, though? ;-)
[01:33:51] <tjb1> r00t hasnt figured out how to make his wiring presentable though
[01:33:58] <tjb1> He has like 15 wires coming out of a box
[01:34:00] <djdelorie> me neither
[01:34:07] <Jymmm> djdelorie: Yeah, you're right. I think I do have down cut for that very purpose. Not upcut liek I previously mentioned (very tired and have a sick lil bird I looking after =(
[01:34:11] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/photos/cnc/img_2563.html
[01:34:13] <r00t-Shed> hooking them up but I am also semi fluent in Eagle.
[01:34:22] <jdh> http://raleigh.craigslist.org/tls/3322129310.html
[01:34:39] <tjb1> Ah so far away jdh
[01:34:42] <r00t-Shed> i could solder a board together
[01:34:52] <jdh> tjb1: 90 miles for me.
[01:34:52] <djdelorie> jdh: tease!
[01:34:53] <tjb1> Whats sad is a 3d printer cost more than that...
[01:35:11] <jdh> new is $3k without the DRO
[01:35:17] <djdelorie> tjb1: a non-grizzly mill costs more than that too
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[01:35:29] <tjb1> Yep
[01:36:20] * djdelorie got a used bridgeport recently, the *shipping* was $450, and it only had to more ten miles... but it had to be moved into my non-walk-in basement :-)
[01:36:46] <djdelorie> http://www.delorie.com/photos/bridgeport/img_2812.html
[01:37:04] <tjb1> What did that cost ya?
[01:37:20] <r00t-Shed> first born daughter
[01:37:30] <tjb1> The grizzly copies are ~6k
[01:38:31] <djdelorie> $2500 not including all the accessories I'll end up buying for it
[01:38:38] <tjb1> Not bad
[01:39:05] <jdh> http://www.auctionzip.com/Full-Image/1558749/fp23.cgi
[01:39:10] <djdelorie> I like it. It was a one-owner one-user (now two of course :) machine from the 80's
[01:39:12] <jdh> that's at an estate auction this weekend
[01:39:13] <tjb1> Too lazy to change belts I see :p
[01:39:20] <djdelorie> ?
[01:39:28] <L84Supper> anyone near Chicago looking for a vintage J head bridgeport?
[01:39:37] <tjb1> I see your VFD djdelorie
[01:39:48] <djdelorie> it was the cheapest way to get three phase power for it
[01:40:32] <djdelorie> and I'll re-use that control with the lathe once I find a 3ph motor for it, *then* I'll need the extra features
[01:40:35] <r00t-Shed> tjb1 always throughing out the "lazys" while his machine sits unfinshed
[01:40:43] <tjb1> Hey r00t
[01:40:45] <r00t-Shed> :P
[01:40:51] <tjb1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4eNtVOPlAg
[01:40:56] <tjb1> Yeah.
[01:41:10] <r00t-Shed> i dont want to do stuff while i cut
[01:41:17] <djdelorie> but mostly I have a friend who knows a *lot* more than I do about powering big equipment at home, and that's what he said to buy :-)
[01:41:35] <r00t-Shed> whats in the video?
[01:42:13] <tjb1> Well watch and see, thats why its a video
[01:42:34] <r00t-Shed> im cutting, dont want to risk lag or anything
[01:42:58] <Valen> if you size your computer properly there shouldn't be any lag
[01:43:09] <tjb1> You just got owned r00t ^
[01:43:46] <Valen> archivist used to compile mysql on his emc box while cutting gears
[01:44:02] <r00t-Shed> i can and do open stuff, sometimes i play games on a emulator but Im cutting a panel for a 75 paradise box in oak and im not risking shit
[01:44:10] <Valen> lol
[01:44:29] <Valen> wth is one of those anyway
[01:44:30] <tjb1> Valen, tell him the video is worth it
[01:44:41] <Valen> eh it draws a spiral
[01:44:42] <Valen> yay
[01:44:46] <tjb1> Valen: http://www.vectric.com/WebSite/Vectric/projects/march-2011/paradise-box.htm
[01:44:47] <r00t-Shed> i watch when i go back inside
[01:44:54] <tjb1> Just owned you that time r00t.
[01:45:03] <r00t-Shed> wrong computer
[01:45:14] <Valen> pretty fancy
[01:45:17] <r00t-Shed> ive never visted that link out here
[01:45:24] <Valen> where did you get the artwork?
[01:45:28] <Valen> oh comes with it
[01:45:34] <r00t-Shed> ive changed all that
[01:46:05] <r00t-Shed> i have a pic inside ill show you later if you still around
[01:46:35] <r00t-Shed> the one im doing now is gonna have fish on the top :D
[01:46:38] <tjb1> Valen: Its my adult spirograph
[01:46:38] <r00t-Shed> jumping bass
[01:46:54] <Valen> if your going to do it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI is a good video
[01:47:10] <Valen> I want to do some brass inlay stuff
[01:47:31] <Valen> I have a client who wants some manacles made, and I'm tossing up the best way to do it
[01:47:34] <Valen> must be epic
[01:47:57] <tjb1> Thats sweet Valen
[01:48:00] <Valen> stainless with brass inlay, just solid brass and "paradise box" it and polish the whole thing
[01:48:15] <Valen> tjb1: I wish i had a machine that accurate lol
[01:48:26] <tjb1> I wish I had an indicator that accurate
[01:48:27] <tjb1> lol
[01:48:36] <tjb1> Mine moves without touching it...
[01:48:40] <Valen> about 4 minutes in they change the camera angle
[01:48:50] <Valen> gives you a sense of scale lol
[01:49:27] <Valen> the spindle motor is bigger than my friends lathe/mill combo
[01:49:29] <tjb1> Hey r00t-Shed, instead of playing with wood…why dont you make your aluminum sides?
[01:49:37] <r00t-Shed> id rather make money
[01:49:47] <Valen> what do they sell for r00t?
[01:50:06] <r00t-Shed> i can sell them all day for 75 to just friends
[01:50:45] <r00t-Shed> i imagine i could get like 100-125 for them with brass handles
[01:50:51] <Valen> what cutter do you use? also how much finishing is involved?
[01:51:08] <r00t-Shed> vbit and endmill , not long
[01:51:15] <r00t-Shed> light sanding
[01:51:20] <Valen> my dad sells wooden things to some galleries down here (australia) always looking for something else to add
[01:51:59] <r00t-Shed> in carveones thread on cnczone he has done some amazing pboxes
[01:52:58] <tjb1> r00t-Shed: I want you to make the wooden ballscrews
[01:53:10] <tjb1> Im sure you have seen that thread
[01:54:44] <r00t-Shed> ya
[01:55:21] <tjb1> Where is the "Home All" button at?
[01:55:32] <tjb1> Or do I need to add a homing sequence for multiple axes before it shows up?
[01:56:38] <djdelorie> on mine, it's just left of the "touch off" button
[01:57:21] <tjb1> Home All?
[01:57:33] <tjb1> Mine has tick boxes for X, Y, Z and then a Home button but it only homes whatever one is ticked
[01:57:40] <djdelorie> 2.5 ?
[01:57:48] <tjb1> I believe
[01:58:01] <djdelorie> mine has home all, but touch off only does the ticked XYZ axis
[01:58:59] <Tom_itx> tjb1 add a home all button
[01:59:15] <Tom_itx> be aware you should do z first in the sub then x and y
[01:59:17] <tjb1> Ha yeah right Tom_itx I am about as good at coding as I am breating underwater
[01:59:28] <Tom_itx> not hard
[01:59:41] <tjb1> *breathing…and they share an input so I will set Z as 0 in the homing sequence
[02:01:03] <Tom_itx> wanna try?
[02:01:18] <tjb1> I wont be back at the machine until thursday but I have all the files with me
[02:01:28] <tjb1> I should install linuxcnc on my laptop
[02:03:14] <Tom_itx> do you have a display.xml file?
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[02:03:49] <djdelorie> I think I want G10 L2 P2 X0 Y0 G55, and leave Z where it was touched off...
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[02:13:08] <djdelorie> If I use F on the same line as a G1, does it affect only that G1, or all future ones?
[02:14:52] <atom1> should affect the line it's on
[02:15:03] <atom1> and future ones
[02:15:10] <atom1> until changed
[02:15:17] <atom1> (modal)
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[02:15:44] <djdelorie> "He flew away before I could thank him!"
[02:15:52] <Tom_itx> no i'm still here
[02:15:56] <Tom_itx> different pc
[02:16:54] <djdelorie> ah. it's a small program, I'll just put F on every move (it's being generated, so doesn't take *me* any more time :)
[02:17:06] <Tom_itx> no need to
[02:17:19] <Tom_itx> i put it at a tool change or change it at a ramp move etc
[02:17:29] <Tom_itx> then back to the desired feed
[02:17:45] <Tom_itx> 1/2 feed on a ramp then back to normal
[02:18:28] <djdelorie> I've wrapped the XY and Z moves in functions, they can put an F on everything without my doing it. I just wanted different speeds for Z vs XY
[02:20:01] <djdelorie> would have been handy if I could have one F at the beginning for XY, and just override the Z, but if it doesn't work that way...
[02:21:26] <Tom_itx> it won't hurt but is redundant
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[02:25:33] <Tom_itx> also, some cnc's require x y z specified every line whether they change or not but most only require the changed axis specified
[02:26:07] <Tom_itx> just makes the file bigger
[02:27:14] <djdelorie> this is just for my linuxcnc machine :-)
[02:40:54] <Tom_itx> i modded a post for my cad cam for it
[02:45:25] <Valen> Our cam lets you set feed rates for all those actions indipendantly
[02:45:35] <Valen> lead in/out etc
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[02:53:46] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/qt3ED
[02:53:55] <r00t4rd3d> 3 parts done and stained
[02:54:17] <Valen> whats the milling time like?
[02:54:54] <r00t4rd3d> hour for the detailed panel
[02:55:04] <r00t4rd3d> 30min for the sides
[02:55:14] <r00t4rd3d> my machine maxes out at 18ipm
[02:55:19] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[02:55:40] <Valen> thats not terrible for timber
[02:55:45] <Valen> if your acceleration is high
[02:56:07] <r00t4rd3d> im normally high but not so much my acceleration.
[02:57:05] <Valen> I'd love to make stuff like this http://www.rubylane.com/item/598821-L1709/Erhard-Sohne-Brass-Burl-Wood
[02:57:08] <Valen> but for now lunch
[02:57:59] <r00t4rd3d> a treasure chest lunch pale
[02:58:03] <r00t4rd3d> thats a good idea
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[03:03:37] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.thomasathomas.com/make_a_chest.htm
[03:11:51] <r00t4rd3d> Valen, this is the last one I did in pine: http://imgur.com/OKWwV
[03:13:47] <r00t4rd3d> I am only going to use oak from now on though
[03:14:32] <r00t4rd3d> i dont like how pine takes stain
[03:18:04] <tjb1> Sorry Tom_itx what about a display.xml
[03:18:30] <Tom_itx> it's where you add the button code
[03:18:41] <Tom_itx> to call the subroutine that actually does the home
[03:20:51] <tjb1> No XML files in the folder I copied
[03:21:54] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna sleep but i'll show you mine later
[03:22:40] <Tom_itx> courtesy of JT-Shop
[03:23:05] <tjb1> Ill try to get linuxcnc on my laptop tomorrow if I have time
[03:23:17] <tjb1> So I am not so useless when I am at school
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[03:46:15] <r00t4rd3d> lol
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[03:54:54] <tjb1> You see teh video r00t4rd3d
[04:02:42] <r00t4rd3d> nah
[04:02:59] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O05javlMW6k&feature=player_detailpage#t=81s
[04:05:37] <tjb1> Good way to get rid of them
[04:07:19] <tjb1> r00t4rd3d: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4eNtVOPlAg
[04:12:04] <r00t4rd3d> cool
[04:13:58] <tjb1> I have to remake Z plate again...
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[04:41:47] <skorket> I'm hoping you guys can help me figure out what's going on and how to fix it. I'm trying to route some PCBs on my CNC. I've tried a small (what I think is) .2mm wide carbide bit. I've successfully made a trace with a 20mil pitch, but the problem is that the line walks all over the place. In one run, I had the bit break, even though I was going at 100mm/minute.
[04:42:15] <skorket> When I try to use a 25 or 30 deg angled bit, I get a much steadier trace, but the width shoots up to upwards of 10mil or more
[04:43:01] <skorket> first off, does anyone have suggestions on how to stop the 'walking' of the carbide bit? And does anyone have an explanation of why the angled bits have such high routed widths?
[04:43:44] <Valen> what RPM?
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[04:43:54] <Valen> also what spindle
[04:44:22] <Valen> thickness variations with a V bit are due to something going up and down
[04:44:29] <Valen> PCB's arent flat at all
[04:44:39] <Valen> so they will wobble up and down as you go across them
[04:44:52] <Valen> We put a vacuume box under it to hold it down flat
[04:45:30] <skorket> Valen, I believe 8,000 RPM. link here: http://zentoolworks.com/product_info.php?cPath=16&products_id=135
[04:45:45] <skorket> I've used a height probe to (hopefully) get the height down to a mill or two
[04:46:08] <Valen> heh that looks like a bog standard DC motor with a collet stuck onto it
[04:46:36] <Valen> anyway
[04:46:38] <skorket> I've gone 2 mils lower than the sensed height. I use a continuity test to test for height, which means I'm physcially touching the PCB with the bit, which might affect the height of the PCB, especially if the bit is thich and sturdy
[04:47:01] <Valen> if the trace varies in width then the tool is going up and down relative to the copper
[04:47:08] <skorket> and in this particular test I'm only going up 3mm, over 0.5 mm, the down and back
[04:47:32] <Valen> how are you holding the pcb down?
[04:47:37] <skorket> I understand. I've made some programs that take a height map and alter the gcode accordingly
[04:47:51] <skorket> but for such small distances, it shouldn't matter too much (I hope)
[04:48:21] <Valen> got photos?
[04:48:23] <skorket> I've pinned the left and right edges down to the table
[04:48:32] <skorket> I can get some if you want...would that be helpful?
[04:48:37] <Valen> could be
[04:48:40] <BHSPiMonkey> got my steppers from sparkfun today \o/
[04:49:19] <Valen> just one of the overall mill and one of the results your getting
[04:52:40] <tjb1> I bet that spindle has lots of torque :)
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[05:05:07] <Jymmm> djdelorie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ_AwFSWIPU
[05:05:59] <djdelorie> I've seen the non-automated one before...
[05:07:32] <djdelorie> I think that kind of precision in the woodwork is just outside my abilities, though.
[05:08:19] <skorket> Valen: http://imgur.com/2NuGF,yLy28,vBTb6,tkFpf
[05:08:28] <skorket> http://imgur.com/2NuGF,yLy28,vBTb6,tkFpf#1
[05:08:40] <skorket> http://imgur.com/2NuGF,yLy28,vBTb6,tkFpf#2
[05:08:46] <skorket> http://imgur.com/2NuGF,yLy28,vBTb6,tkFpf#3
[05:09:34] <skorket> The ones that wobble all around but otherwise have a routed track are done with the carbide bit. The ones that are straight but have either no or tiny trace are done with an angled bit
[05:09:51] <Valen> Jymmm: pretty cool
[05:09:56] <Valen> needs to be quieter though
[05:10:14] <Jymmm> Valen: Yeah, I thought it was a tad loud too.
[05:10:22] <Valen> the clunks are ok
[05:10:47] <Jymmm> Got Pallets? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFGaW2FdKB4&feature=related
[05:10:49] <Valen> the drill motor/gearbox driving it needs to not be mounted on a sounding board
[05:11:23] <Valen> skorket: are they all sposed to be like the one on the right?
[05:11:29] <Valen> in terms of squareness?
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[05:12:08] <Valen> Jymmm: that has to be the worst version of popcorn i've heard lol
[05:12:24] <Jymmm> Valen: hit the mute button
[05:12:31] <Valen> I did
[05:12:37] <skorket> The one on the right is decent, but the trace width is very narrow. considering dx is 0.5mm, this means that width of the routed track is just shy of .25mm, which puts the total routed track at 10mil. I would like it to be less, if possible
[05:12:39] <Valen> after i appreciated the full horror
[05:12:50] <skorket> or at least, understand why the track width is so huge when using such a sharply angled bit
[05:12:58] <Valen> its cutting too deep
[05:13:09] <Valen> or its got lots of runout
[05:13:24] <Valen> the leftmost pass here http://imgur.com/2NuGF,yLy28,vBTb6,tkFpf#3
[05:13:36] <Valen> looks like its wandering on the copper and not actually punching through
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[05:14:09] <skorket> which would indicate high runout?
[05:14:39] <Valen> lack of stiffness in something
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[05:14:51] <Jymmm> that's what she said
[05:15:32] <Valen> lol
[05:15:55] <skorket> well, the carbide tip is extremely skinny...
[05:16:15] <Valen> thats not it
[05:16:25] <Jymmm> that's what she said too
[05:17:26] <Valen> http://www.vapourforge.com/jake/temp/milled-pcb-for-spinzster.jpg is how it came out on our mill
[05:17:37] <Valen> with a 37 degree V bit i think
[05:18:00] <Valen> made this with it too http://www.vapourforge.com/jake/temp/milled-soldermask-for-spinster-aluminium.jpg
[05:18:09] <Valen> out of this http://www.vapourforge.com/jake/temp/milled-soldermask-for-spinster-printed.jpg
[05:18:12] <skorket> what's the trace width on that quad pad?
[05:18:17] <Jymmm> Valen: That's actually a cool design
[05:18:39] <Valen> nfi lol, its a tqfp33
[05:18:42] <Valen> ffs
[05:18:45] <Valen> tqfp44
[05:18:56] <Valen> atmel atmega 32u4
[05:19:08] <Valen> Jymmm: what you mean?
[05:19:40] <Valen> the pads were about the same width as the feet on the part
[05:19:51] <Valen> well most of em anyway
[05:20:02] <Valen> HAH
[05:20:16] <skorket> 30mil pitch about?
[05:20:20] <Valen> Jymmm: I should scale that up and mill it into one of those paradise boxes
[05:20:30] <Valen> nfi lol
[05:21:13] <Valen> http://www.elnec.com/pics/qfp/qfp44-481-47m.gif
[05:21:33] <skorket> yeah, that's where I got the number from
[05:22:11] <skorket> how did you solve the height problem?
[05:22:26] <Valen> vacuume box under it hooked up to a vacuume cleaner
[05:22:48] <Valen> bunch of holes into the chamber, and some grooves around it
[05:22:53] <Valen> joining the holes
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[05:23:00] <Valen> then masking tape to seal the edges
[05:23:30] <skorket> what was the thickness of the FR4?
[05:23:34] <Valen> nfi
[05:23:37] <Valen> standard
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[05:25:01] <Valen> I'd suggest putting something not sharp into the chuck and wobble it with a dial guage on it
[05:25:14] <Valen> look for play and slop
[05:25:16] <skorket> well, even a 10 mill routed track will do what you did...
[05:25:37] <skorket> I made a ghetto dial indicator and measured only 2-3 mil runout (max)
[05:25:56] <Valen> yeah, try pushing on the tip and see what happens
[05:26:03] <Valen> see if the whole machine rattles
[05:26:10] <Valen> but take the sharp carbide out
[05:26:22] <Valen> those things are really good at stabbing fingers
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[05:26:33] <skorket> yeah, I just gouged myself earlier today
[05:26:43] <skorket> not a pleasant experience
[05:27:02] <skorket> meaning, push it while it's running? (without the carbide tip in, obviously)
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[05:28:06] <Valen> no when its off
[05:28:11] <Valen> look for backlash in stuff
[05:28:17] <Valen> check Z out too
[05:28:42] <skorket> also, any suggestions on where to get reasonably priced spindles, or on how to make my own?
[05:28:56] <Valen> not really
[05:29:01] <skorket> oh, and any suggestions on making a laser equivalent to a dial indicator?
[05:29:02] <Valen> we got a 2.2Kw one from china
[05:29:23] <Valen> an interferomiter? conceptually simple, practically, just buy a dial indicator ;->
[05:31:59] <skorket> but, no reason to put the detector at a right angle with all the mirrors. Could just put the detector at the other end of the source
[05:33:49] <Valen> detector?
[05:35:37] <skorket> hmm...
[05:36:06] <skorket> 0802 refers to 8mil by 2mil or .8 mm by .2 mm?
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[05:48:52] <toastydeath> the problem with a laser interferometer is that they're harder to use than a dial indicator and the accuracy they give is a false one
[05:49:07] <Valen> shouldn't be false accuracy
[05:49:21] <Valen> light being the definition of distance
[05:49:34] <Valen> specific implemtations might leave something to be desired
[05:49:35] <toastydeath> yep, and one would think that
[05:49:54] <toastydeath> but the actual case of having a laser interferometer in front of you and trying to measure something with it will change that opinion rapidly
[05:50:12] <toastydeath> they're fine for machine calibration but actual measurments are not so easy
[05:50:39] <Valen> no not easy at all
[05:51:05] <Valen> i mean unless you actually go from contact with the mirror you cant just stick something in front of it and measure
[05:51:15] <toastydeath> dial indicator is cheap and easy to use, and if someone needs more accuracy than that use a cap probe or an lvdt
[05:51:24] <Valen> lvdt?
[05:51:34] <toastydeath> linear variable displacement transistor/transducer
[05:51:49] <Valen> fancypants strainguage?
[05:51:58] <toastydeath> nah, it's a fancypants dial indicator
[05:52:18] <toastydeath> measures comfortably down into millionths of an inch
[05:52:39] <Valen> i imagine you start adding 0's to the price of the dial guage
[05:52:39] <toastydeath> changes resistance based on shaft displacement in a sleeve
[05:52:44] <toastydeath> yep
[05:53:23] <toastydeath> old school electronic analog dial indicators are LVDT based, and they can be had somewhat cheaply on ebay
[05:53:28] <toastydeath> they'll often measure to .00001
[05:53:45] <Valen> still sounds like a strain guage ;-P
[05:53:52] <Valen> well the guts of one anyway
[05:53:56] <toastydeath> except it isn't a strain gauge
[05:54:01] <Valen> I bet they calibrate them with an interferomiter
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[05:54:06] <Valen> same principle?
[05:54:20] <toastydeath> negative
[05:54:26] * Valen googles
[05:55:11] <Valen> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_variable_differential_transformer
[05:55:27] <toastydeath> yep
[05:55:40] <Valen> so more like a resolver then
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[05:55:44] <toastydeath> yes
[05:55:56] <skorket> What's the cap probe setup? You put a charged plate next to the bit and rotate it around?
[05:56:17] <toastydeath> nah, anything conductive
[05:56:26] <Valen> camera with an aspheric lens sounds more my speed ;->
[05:56:43] <toastydeath> cap probes suck at absolute measurement because they're very sensitive to alignment and surface flatness
[05:56:54] <toastydeath> but they're incredible at relative measurement
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[05:57:27] <toastydeath> they're used in spindle error analysis and other small error things for that reason
[05:57:29] <skorket> toastydeath, but I still don't understand how you measure the runout...
[05:57:31] <toastydeath> also being non contact helps
[05:57:58] <toastydeath> you point the cap probe at the thing with like a 1/64th to 1/32 of air gap
[05:58:04] <toastydeath> and then spin your thing around
[05:58:06] <toastydeath> and look at the gauge readout
[05:58:25] <toastydeath> you can also hook it up to an oscilloscope
[05:58:32] <toastydeath> to get a nice analog readout
[05:58:43] <skorket> interesting...so even putting a piece of wire right next to the spinning spindle will work (theoretically)?
[05:58:55] <toastydeath> no, I have no idea how they actually work
[05:59:09] <toastydeath> the probe is the cheap part
[05:59:18] <toastydeath> the sensing bullshit is the actual expensive part of cap probes
[05:59:28] <skorket> meaning the code and the micro?
[05:59:47] <toastydeath> and the actual physical hardware required
[06:00:03] <toastydeath> the capacetence changes are miniscule
[06:00:15] <skorket> ??
[06:00:27] <toastydeath> what are you confused about
[06:00:42] <skorket> you put a big resistor in series, put an A/D at the appropriate place, measure the time constant
[06:01:20] <skorket> $2.50 for the micro, $0.01 for the resistor
[06:01:28] <toastydeath> good luck then
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[06:04:16] <skorket> thank you
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[06:08:57] <Valen> oh his way would work
[06:09:12] <Valen> until somebody has a fluro within 50km
[06:09:21] <Valen> or its a warm day
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[06:41:01] <Jymmm> Valen: What I was saying is this is a cool (artistic) design. looks like dull brass in this photo,kinda like a birds eye view of some far away observation station or something... http://www.vapourforge.com/jake/temp/milled-pcb-for-spinzster.jpg
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[06:48:25] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:11:32] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[13:48:09] <mrsun> hell yeah, moved a house about 20km and sat it down on a new foundation in 8 days time (ofc not all of that time ive been working with it) =)
[13:48:24] -!- V0idExp [V0idExp!~ivan@matteonunziati.pin.unifi.it] has joined #linuxcnc
[13:48:37] <V0idExp> Hi all!
[13:49:26] <V0idExp> Can someone explain me few things? I'm planning to drive an XY plane system with stepper drives, closing the loop with linear encoders.
[13:49:47] <V0idExp> Having a Mesa 7i43 card which as for now controls the stepper drives
[13:50:44] <V0idExp> The PC is an Atom D2500HN board... so, the question is, would I have any problems with running such configuration?
[13:51:11] <V0idExp> Is the latency/speed/power of the Atom board important, when the mesa does the dirty job?
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[13:52:07] <V0idExp> I mean, does the atom characteristics influence the behavior of the mesa working, such as step generation / encoder control in the closed loop?
[13:53:55] <cdsteinkuehler> Pinging Michael Haberler for git quesitons...
[13:57:19] <r00t4rd3d> mhaberler might ping better
[13:57:28] <JT-Shop> cdsteinkuehler: it works better if you use his screen name
[13:57:36] <r00t4rd3d> slow poke
[13:57:54] <JT-Shop> :P
[13:58:15] <cdsteinkuehler> OK, so in addition to not knowing how to use git, I can't drive IRC. <sigh> :)
[13:58:35] <r00t4rd3d> instal git to start with
[13:58:35] <JT-Shop> have you looked at the git pages on the wiki?
[13:59:05] <r00t4rd3d> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Git
[14:00:22] <cdsteinkuehler> I'm (mostly) past the git basics...mhaberler just granted me access to a repo to work on some preempt-rt stuff, and I'm a bit confused with how to use it properly.
[14:02:10] <JT-Shop> better wait for him to wander by then
[14:02:18] <r00t4rd3d> git clone username@host:/path/to/repository
[14:02:47] <r00t4rd3d> but make a dir first and in the dir in a term type git init
[14:03:58] <V0idExp> guys... help a poor noob, please :D
[14:03:58] <V0idExp> the encoder pulses are read and processed by Mesa card or by my LinuxCNC driven Atom board?
[14:05:05] <JT-Shop> which Mesa card?
[14:05:11] <V0idExp> 7i43-4
[14:05:19] <r00t4rd3d> V0idExp, andypugh is one of the local mesa nerds, might want to wait for him to pop up.
[14:05:33] <V0idExp> I'll do it for sure :D
[14:05:42] <V0idExp> cause it's a critical question
[14:05:55] <pcw_home> encoder inputs are counted and stepgen rates are generated by the FPGA
[14:05:56] <pcw_home> so you don't need a base thread
[14:06:25] <V0idExp> so, the correction and other cool stuff (made possible by encoder application) are done by FPGA?
[14:06:34] * JT-Shop quits looking cause Peter has arrive )
[14:06:38] <JT-Shop> d
[14:06:39] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[14:07:25] <V0idExp> and the Atom is just a piece of hardware which acts as "supervisor"... but does not take part during the super-fast-and-possibly-precise movement?
[14:07:35] <V0idExp> I'm stuck with this... :/
[14:07:58] <pcw_home> No, LinuxCNC still runs the PID loop (at 1 KHz typically) but low level details like actual counting, PWM generation. and step generation are done in th hardware
[14:08:47] <V0idExp> so, my maximum speeds are limited only to mesa's max frequencies at which it operates?
[14:08:57] <V0idExp> and obviously, by drives
[14:09:20] <pcw_home> for things like encoder count rates and step rates yes
[14:09:24] <r00t4rd3d> cdsteinkuehler, this is your friend - http://rogerdudler.github.com/git-guide/
[14:09:47] <V0idExp> and the error correction (ferror stuff) is done automatically?>
[14:10:02] <pcw_home> max step rate is clocklow/4 so 12.5 MHz for 7I43
[14:10:16] <V0idExp> it's more than enough :D
[14:10:33] <pcw_home> No the error correction is done by linuxCNC
[14:12:09] -!- skunkworks [skunkworks!~skunkwork@68-115-41-210.static.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #linuxcnc
[14:12:46] <skunkworks> yilkes
[14:12:56] <skunkworks> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/137072
[14:13:04] <skunkworks> Good morning
[14:14:11] <pcw_home> LinuxCNC is designed so LinuxCNC is in control of everything so all LinuxCNC features are software features (not dependent on some specific hardware) The hardware just improves the performance
[14:14:13] <pcw_home> by effectively having a MHz base thread
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[14:15:40] <V0idExp> maybe I explained myself wrong... I don't mean backlash and correction tables... I mean, that if I pair the stepper drive with an encoder, I'd obtain a greater precision, right? because I always have a feedback of the real position... this feature works at the condition that my Mesa card can handle frequencies at which the encoder and drivers work, or ALSO depends on Atom board's characteristics?
[14:19:17] <pcw_home> if you have a high enough resolution encoder and you use a high uStep ratio drive
[14:19:19] <pcw_home> you may get better accuracy tha a step drive alone (especially with a linear encoder)
[14:19:20] <pcw_home> The CPUs characteristics have little to do with the accuracy as long as the CPU latency is not terrible
[14:21:22] <pcw_home> if you have a very high performance system (say linear motors and high resolution linear scales)
[14:21:24] <pcw_home> you probably need more CPU horsepower so you can run the servo thread faster than LinuxCNCs default 1 KHz
[14:22:03] <V0idExp> latency is around 12-13k (bas thread & servo thread). motor has microstepping 200 and the liner encoder which I want to buy (optical one) provides precision in order of some microns. but all I need is to have a precision in order of 0.01 mm
[14:22:39] <V0idExp> Well, dual-core Atom with only LinuxCNC running (and a ssh daemon) will suffice for the task?
[14:24:47] <pcw_home> that should be fine
[14:24:55] <skunkworks> If you are using linear scales for feedback - you better not have any backlash between the steppers and the scales. Will make it almost impossible to tune. (unless you do 2 loops - positon from the scales and velocity from the stepper) But I don't know how well that will all work (and how hard it is to tune..)
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[14:26:11] <skunkworks> logger[psha],
[14:28:03] <pcw_home> Yes you scale resolution will need to be several time the needed accuracy and as skunkworks
[14:28:05] <pcw_home> said, no or minuscule backlash
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[14:33:23] <V0idExp> with backlash you mean the BACKLASH parameter in the .ini file? are you recommending to set it to 0 or I understood bad? (I'm not english... :))
[14:33:46] <r00t4rd3d> he means the backlash in your machine
[14:34:17] <r00t4rd3d> you compensate for it in the ini file
[14:35:13] <V0idExp> so, what you intend with "backlash between steppers and the scales"? ..
[14:37:00] <pcw_home> No what I am saying is that if you use the stepmotors with feedback you cannot have any significant backlash and still have it work well
[14:38:14] <pcw_home> bbl time to walk the dog
[14:38:17] <V0idExp> Good.
[14:38:29] <V0idExp> HOpe my system will prove robust.. :D
[14:38:42] <V0idExp> thank you all a VERY MUCH!
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[14:55:00] <alex_joni> skunkworks: howdy
[14:55:16] <skunkworks> Hey alex
[14:55:20] <skunkworks> How goes it?
[14:55:23] <alex_joni> good ;)
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[14:58:59] <r00t4rd3d> alex can you change the forums from joomla to phpBB ?
[14:59:03] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[14:59:51] <alex_joni> in theory or in practice?
[14:59:59] <r00t4rd3d> both i guess
[15:00:14] <r00t4rd3d> do you have access and could you do it?
[15:01:14] <alex_joni> most likely, yeah
[15:01:27] <alex_joni> but I lack the time and the urge right now :)
[15:01:41] <r00t4rd3d> jt and andy would probably pay you
[15:02:10] <alex_joni> money != time
[15:02:24] <alex_joni> but in all seriousness, I'll ponder about it
[15:02:28] <alex_joni> and the rest of the webpage
[15:02:41] <r00t4rd3d> I could do it if someone gave me access
[15:02:49] <alex_joni> I think most likely joomla will have to go
[15:03:02] <r00t4rd3d> yeah, its garbage
[15:03:42] <r00t4rd3d> phpbb has tons of mods and cool things you can do with it
[15:03:52] <r00t4rd3d> also mods for anti spammers
[15:04:09] <r00t4rd3d> err -anti
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[15:22:01] <r00t4rd3d> alex_joni, baby steps would be cool too, just get phpbb installed to like linuxcnc.org/phpbb and create a new database for now for it then later we can work on getting the data from Joomla moved over.
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[15:27:01] <skunkworks> is there a utillity to do that?
[15:27:32] <r00t4rd3d> probably
[15:29:25] <r00t4rd3d> just assigning the database that joomla uses to phpbb might work too.
[15:31:12] <skunkworks> that sounds like a stretch.. (they would both use the same database structure?)
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[15:37:49] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.rockettheme.com/extensions-joomla/rokbridge
[15:38:51] <r00t4rd3d> i guess you can bridge them fairly simple
[15:39:48] <tjb1> All you do is talk r00t4rd3d
[15:42:34] <tjb1> :)
[15:47:59] -!- syyl_ws [syyl_ws!~sg@p4FD1500D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[15:48:29] <r00t4rd3d> but you can never hear me
[15:49:06] <tjb1> About a month and I will have your aluminum side plates ;)
[15:49:23] <r00t4rd3d> I could forge a set by then
[15:49:26] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[15:49:48] <r00t4rd3d> im thinking about making my table bigger
[15:49:52] <tjb1> well you can prepay so I can buy the materials for my water table :)
[15:50:01] <r00t4rd3d> prepay?
[15:50:13] <r00t4rd3d> I was expecting them for free.
[15:50:27] <r00t4rd3d> FREE
[15:51:02] <jdh> and free shipping.
[15:51:12] <r00t4rd3d> well i could pay for the shipping
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[15:51:34] <r00t4rd3d> I can probably just cut them myself
[15:51:41] <r00t4rd3d> too
[15:52:11] <r00t4rd3d> im sure my setup can handle cutting aluminum
[15:52:16] <jdh> I need a topic for the Safety Minute(tm) tomorrow.
[15:53:38] <tjb1> Well go for it then r00t4rd3d :)
[15:54:12] <r00t4rd3d> I want a 4x4 table
[15:54:25] <r00t4rd3d> well cutting area
[15:54:44] <tjb1> Gonna stay with wood?
[15:54:59] <r00t4rd3d> most likely for the frame
[15:55:18] <tjb1> should use 1530 extrusions
[15:55:47] <r00t4rd3d> 2x4's are cheaper
[15:56:42] <tjb1> Yeah but none are straight
[15:57:14] <r00t4rd3d> not to the novice eye
[15:57:30] <tjb1> i went through piles of them at lowes when we were building the kitchen
[15:59:17] <r00t4rd3d> stud grade are normally crappy
[15:59:28] <r00t4rd3d> but also the cheapest
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[16:00:09] <r00t4rd3d> premium grade is what you want
[16:01:42] <r00t4rd3d> but they are double the cost of stud grade
[16:03:17] <r00t4rd3d> Not all 2x4's are the same young grass hopper
[16:04:55] <tjb1> 1530 is like $0.40 an inch
[16:05:13] <tjb1> $38 for a 8' piece
[16:05:30] <r00t4rd3d> 6 bucks for a premium 8' 2x4
[16:06:42] <jdh> for the price difference, I'd go with the 1530
[16:07:35] <r00t4rd3d> Safety Minute: Dont butt into others conversations.
[16:07:36] <r00t4rd3d> :D
[16:07:46] <r00t4rd3d> (tm)
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[16:08:49] * jdh ponders the safety aspect of "interrupting whiny bitches"
[16:09:23] <r00t4rd3d> one of the whiny bitches might have a premium 2x4 in his hands.
[16:09:56] <r00t4rd3d> o/
[16:12:58] * skunkworks would buy a broken vmc and convert it
[16:13:02] <tjb1> what if the other has a piece of 1530?
[16:14:38] <r00t4rd3d> im gonna go cash in some aluminum I got this weekend
[16:14:48] <tjb1> I got my Stellaris Launchpads today :D
[16:15:38] <r00t4rd3d> what you going to do with that?
[16:15:45] <r00t4rd3d> bolt some aluminum to it?
[16:16:09] <jdh> I bought 3 of those a few years ago. plugged one in, watched the default program blink lights, put them back in the box.
[16:16:54] <r00t4rd3d> pretty much what i did with my first arduino
[16:17:58] <r00t4rd3d> i still have a uno sealed in the box
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[16:19:03] <tjb1> Wanna sell your uno?
[16:19:10] <tjb1> jdh: these just came out this month
[16:19:12] <r00t4rd3d> i like my Teensy plugged into a breadboard
[16:20:50] <tjb1> r00t4rd3d: Wanna sell your uno
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[16:22:04] <r00t4rd3d> no, i got it for free
[16:22:47] <tjb1> How?
[16:22:55] <r00t4rd3d> they are extemly cheap though so not sure why you would want mine
[16:23:04] <r00t4rd3d> sparkfun freeday
[16:23:59] <r00t4rd3d> like in jan or feb sparkfun has a "free day" last year they gave out 200k worth of store credit
[16:24:23] <r00t4rd3d> 100 bucks per person
[16:24:49] <jdh> you actually got something?
[16:24:59] <jdh> all I ever got was a website crash.
[16:25:04] <r00t4rd3d> yeah, 100 bucks worth of stuff
[16:25:12] <jdh> cool
[16:25:22] <r00t4rd3d> you have to pay the shipping though
[16:25:32] <r00t4rd3d> and spend all the credit at one time
[16:25:45] <jdh> I have had a shopping cart with $200 worth of stuff the last couple of times. Never got through.
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[16:27:39] <tjb1> Ohh
[16:27:43] <tjb1> I need to know about that
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[16:27:51] <tjb1> Give you $5 for your uno :)
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[16:30:59] <exco> hello, I'm just trying to setup a 6 axis robot using a Mesa 5i22 ... I can get 3 Axis running with the hm2-servo->5i22small and am looking for someone to help me modifying my puma 560 hal
[16:31:16] <exco> to get all 6 axis moving
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[16:34:18] <awallin> exco start by pastebinning your HAL files and your INI file somewhere. then you need to describe in more detail what hardware you have. are axes 4-6 the same as 1-3 that you have working now?
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[16:35:38] <exco> awallin, http://pastebin.com/iHe2ge7N puma560_sim_6.hal (started modifying)
[16:36:31] <exco> http://pastebin.com/zCGcYHnW puma560.ini also modified
[16:37:44] <exco> http://pastebin.com/NLtpSkxC working hm2-servo.hal (two daughterboards attached)
[16:38:42] <exco> I have a Manutec R15 http://www.robotspot.de/roscata/roc/img/rp71001024-0001.jpg
[16:39:06] <exco> I have all axis connected to the mesa daughtercards
[16:42:21] <awallin> ok, and the problem is?
[16:42:30] <exco> joints 0-2 correspond to hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00-02
[16:42:58] <exco> joints 3-5 correspond to hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.04-06
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[16:43:42] <exco> I need to adapt the puma560_sim_6.hal so it takes these signals
[16:43:51] <exco> I don't know how to
[16:44:30] <exco> as I understand it in hm2-servo.hal the blocks for x,y,z also connect the signals from the mesa card to linuxcnc
[16:45:08] <exco> pretty much I would want to copy paste those over to the joint 0-5 in puma560_sim_6.hal
[16:48:48] <awallin> did you get it working with the 3-axis HAL? and pid-tuning roughly OK?
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[16:49:02] <siji> Hello All
[16:49:42] <siji> Am new to this group .. Recently got to knw about this project from one of my friend
[16:50:06] <siji> And since am into embedded domain -thinking to build linuccnc for Pandaboard
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[16:50:24] <siji> Just starts downloading the source of of linux cnc
[16:50:29] <exco> awallin, I get it working with 3-axis, yes and pid tuning is fine. I use the vsd-xe for the P factor and the rest is up to LCNC
[16:50:49] <siji> Before that I wold like to know anyone tried this before
[16:50:59] <IchGuckLive> siji: why not precompiled
[16:51:10] <awallin> siji: install from live-CD is probably the easiest to start with .. unless you have a lot of experience with compiling stuff
[16:51:19] <IchGuckLive> siji: http://www.google.de/
[16:51:22] <awallin> exco: ok, but your 3-axis setup does not have puma kins?
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[16:51:31] <IchGuckLive> siji: http://buildbot.linuxcnc.org/
[16:51:35] <siji> awallin, but Live cd is only for X86 right?
[16:51:36] <siji> ok
[16:51:38] <IchGuckLive> sorry O.O
[16:52:10] <exco> awallin, that's right
[16:52:11] <siji> IchGuckLive, is there anyting for ARM
[16:52:24] <IchGuckLive> No
[16:52:35] <jthornton> I think there was some chatter on the forum about something similar
[16:52:38] <automata-> hi siji
[16:52:39] <exco> awallin, it uses trivkins
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[16:52:44] <siji> hey amit
[16:52:49] <siji> Nice to see you here
[16:52:57] <IchGuckLive> siji: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?ARM
[16:53:03] <siji> ok
[16:53:14] <automata-> same here.. just sent you a mail on first steps...
[16:53:25] <siji> ok
[16:54:33] <siji> automata-, reading ..
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[16:55:43] <siji> automata-, so you want to stick with ubuntu
[16:56:08] <automata-> for now that is the easiest road forward...
[16:56:15] <siji> ok
[16:56:30] <automata-> mhabeler also seemed to think so..
[16:56:41] <awallin> exco: I would start with just one joint. add the pid-component, and connect to the mesa-card pwm and encoder as in the 3-axis example
[16:57:23] <exco> yes, can you tell me how?
[16:57:46] <IchGuckLive> exco: read the example files
[16:58:41] <exco> IchGuckLive, yes, that's what I'm doing, but if you can point me towards the right one that would also help
[16:59:17] <IchGuckLive> exco: im not up to your hardware
[17:01:30] <exco> doesn't really depend on the hardware ... I just need to know how to connect the mesa to one of the joints
[17:03:29] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?GantryPlasmaMachine#Wiring_Diagram
[17:03:45] <IchGuckLive> exco: you got this pdf ?
[17:04:38] <exco> IchGuckLive, the wiring is already done and working - tested with trivkins and mesa
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[17:04:55] <exco> IchGuckLive, I'm trying to adapt the config from trivkins to pumakins but don't get it done atm
[17:09:28] <awallin> exco did you do any modifications to this yet? http://pastebin.com/iHe2ge7N
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[17:10:57] <exco> yes, I added the stuff for hostmot2
[17:11:20] <exco> awallin, what I would need is how to connect the mesa to the joints in the hal file
[17:12:46] <exco> in the trivkins it's with the axis block http://pastebin.com/x48Fz3La and how do I rewrite that to pumakins
[17:13:35] <awallin> the 6-axis sim HAL seems to use axis.0.motor-pos-cmd etc? does that work?
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[17:15:11] <exco> well the simulator works
[17:16:04] <awallin> I don't know why with trivkins they are called motor.0..N and with the 6-axis genserkins they are axis.0..N maybe someone else can explain?
[17:16:48] <exco> I think this line net emcmot.02.enable => pid.2.enable is where my problem is atm
[17:17:19] <exco> it should be something like net emcmot.04.enable => scale.0.enable I guess
[17:18:03] <awallin> why? what error message do you get?
[17:19:00] <exco> puma560_sim_6.hal:94: Pin 'scale.0.enable' does not exist
[17:19:32] <awallin> right. what do you need scaling for? do you have a scale in the 3-axis working config?
[17:19:50] <awallin> if you need it you need to "loadrt" the scale component somewhere at the top of the file
[17:20:38] <exco> the pumakins is working as simulator
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[17:20:55] <exco> what you need it for I don't know
[17:22:22] <awallin> ok, I see them at the end of the 6-axis sim HAL file. they seem to do nothing, just remove the loadrt and all references to them
[17:23:06] <exco> ok awallin but how do I connect linux cnc to the mesa
[17:24:55] <awallin> like in the 3-axis example you have working. you need pid-components (loadrt, and add them to the servo-thread, and set PID-gains) then connect axis.0.motor-pos-cmd to the PID input, mesa.xxx.encoder to the feedback and to axis.0.motor-pos-fb, and the PID output to mesa.xxx.pwmgen
[17:25:00] <awallin> roughly... :)
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[17:26:30] <automata-> awallin: for trivial kinematics each motor( joint) corresponds directly to an axis (orthogonal basis) in 6 D space. However, for general serial manipulators, the axes are defined as x, y,z, r, p ,y (or any other rotation representation that suits your fancy) but the joints (motors) donot have a 1:1 correspondence to the axes.
[17:26:51] <automata-> if you move one motor on a puma, you will get motion on more than one axes.
[17:27:38] <awallin> automata-: ok. I would just call the joint command/feedback from motion allways "joint", I don't see why it should be "motor" with trivkins, and "axis" with genserkins
[17:28:16] <automata-> That is what the kinematics and inverse kinematics is all about: Forward kinematic => motor to world coordinates; inversre kinematics => world to motor...
[17:28:37] <awallin> I sort of get these ideas, just not the naming convention here.
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[17:29:27] <automata-> The original intent for emc was machine tools which are generally catersian based.. so trivkins suited everyones needs... at that time axis seemed the right naming convention..
[17:30:07] <exco> so I can't just add 6 pid's but need to modify the existing zzz ?
[17:30:18] <automata-> then with 5 axis machining and machines with different kinematics, the whole naming convention took a major nose-dive..
[17:30:31] <awallin> exco: zzz?
[17:31:23] <exco> I don't know what to connect to what ... but the simulator has 6 "scale"'s so I guess to those?
[17:31:24] <IchGuckLive> exco: read the integretor manual
[17:31:29] <IchGuckLive> page 199
[17:32:27] <awallin> exco: try to find a pastebin-like website which has live editing of documents (like google-docs) and I can maybe help you get started..
[17:32:33] <exco> IchGuckLive, timers, monostables, counters?
[17:32:51] <IchGuckLive> no the kinetic stuff
[17:32:57] <IchGuckLive> or the pid
[17:32:58] <exco> awallin, http://piratepad.net/RH5DhYzLxr
[17:33:23] <awallin> exco: can you paste there what you have now
[17:33:45] <exco> yes
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[17:35:14] <exco> IchGuckLive, http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.5/LinuxCNC_Integrator_Manual.pdf, yes?
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[17:37:37] <IchGuckLive> yes
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[17:46:31] <mhaberler> awallin: is this Submakefile patch for master, or v2.5_branch?
[17:46:58] <awallin> mhaberler: whatever I get with 'git pull origin master' :) is that what I'm supposed to do?
[17:47:14] <mhaberler> sounds like master then
[17:47:25] <mhaberler> ok, will push it, looks harmless
[17:47:31] <awallin> I'm probably doing it wrong then ? :)
[17:47:50] <mhaberler> no, fine - library ordering has a history of being brittle
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[17:48:07] <awallin> exco: now we are ready to look at the error message you get when you run this! don't hurt yourself! check the PID gains, don't enable any high power motors right away etc
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[17:55:33] <automata_> mhaberler: We are looking at the port to xenomai...
[17:55:58] <mhaberler> automata_: did you see my mail on -developers?
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[17:56:18] <automata_> looking at it now...
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[17:58:20] <automata_> siji: have a look at michaels mail : http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net/msg07819.html
[17:59:44] <exco> awallin, ... starts but doesn't move the motor yet ... will look some more
[18:00:10] <awallin> exco: the usual thing now is you get following errors pretty quick
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[18:01:11] <micges> mhaberler: hi
[18:01:18] <mhaberler> hi!
[18:01:47] <micges> mhaberler: did you based your xemonai support on anything?
[18:02:03] <awallin> exco: use halmeter to look at signal values and you might figure out what is going on
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[18:04:14] <mhaberler> micges: no, this is v2.5_branch for now - until somebody starts pushing
[18:04:43] <micges> mhm
[18:04:43] <mhaberler> I might try to reverse-engineer some of Sergey's stuff, and there's that French fellow
[18:04:59] <mhaberler> are you doing anything with xenomai?
[18:05:04] <micges> no
[18:05:16] <micges> but I have rt-preempt working
[18:06:48] <alex_joni> what extent of working?
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[18:09:43] <cradek> mhaberler: you can feel free to branch off of linuxcnc v2.5_branch
[18:10:14] <micges> under linuxcnc I've comunicated with mesanet 7i80 board with sockets
[18:10:37] <alex_joni> micges: cool
[18:10:41] <micges> 1kHz send/recv and about 40-60us latency
[18:10:43] * alex_joni grumbles about packing
[18:11:22] <awallin> exco: I moved do-pid-calcs up to a better place now (on your piratepad)
[18:11:46] <micges> alex_joni: but latency is increasing to >100us under hdd load
[18:12:47] <exco> awallin, can't get it to move yet, but I'll put some more hours into it the next days and will get back to you if I make any progress
[18:12:57] <exco> thanks a lot for giving me a hand here
[18:13:25] <awallin> exco: ok, youre welcome, you have to promise to post some cool videos when you get it moving! :)
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[18:17:06] <exco> awallin, yes, absolutely
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[18:17:28] <exco> awallin, I just noticed I don't get encoder feedback in linuxcnc when manually moving the motor
[18:18:20] <awallin> exco check that INPUT_SCALE is nonzero
[18:19:06] <exco> 4000
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[18:21:05] <awallin> exco was hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.position working OK with the 3-axis config?
[18:22:41] <exco> yes, but like this
[18:22:42] <exco> net motor.03.pos-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.03.position => pid.0.feedback
[18:23:41] <exco> ah yeah, we have the same with
[18:23:44] <awallin> exco: ok, I was assuming that pwmgen.00 connects to the same motor as encoder.00
[18:23:49] <exco> net J0pos-fb hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.encoder.00.position => pid.0.feedback
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[18:27:57] <exco> awallin, I made an error changing the numbers ... it's working
[18:28:19] <awallin> exco: nice!
[18:28:35] <exco> well some twitching of a motor that ist. I will get more done tomorrow and come back here as soon as I have some real movement
[18:28:42] <exco> with some videos
[18:28:50] <exco> you made my day
[18:30:02] <exco> have a nice evening and talk to you later
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[18:42:02] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: You still looking for NiChrome wire?
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[19:10:50] <tjb1> Can someone please watch this video until it pauses and advise on whether that lower bearing support is needed? I have it outlined with a box in the video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4NrNKoEqMM
[19:11:11] <tjb1> or skip to :30 in
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[19:17:24] <alex_joni> &t=0m30s
[19:18:17] <tjb1> ?
[19:18:48] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4NrNKoEqMM&t=0m30s
[19:19:10] <tjb1> oh, thanks
[19:20:15] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: nope
[19:20:35] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Any idea if that screw support is needed?
[19:21:10] <JT-Shop> haven't had time to look yet
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[19:31:06] <automata_> does anyone have an idea regarding using solenoids to apply 6 kg/cm2 pressure?
[19:31:53] <automata_> This is for an auto-toolchanger spindle that my friend is trying to modify without using the pneumatic cylinder...
[19:33:47] <automata_> He is trying to take out the pneumatic cylinder and repace it with a solenoid..
[19:37:54] <L84Supper> automata_, 6 kg/cm2 to what area?
[19:38:32] <automata_> I am guessing about 0.5 cm2 area
[19:39:31] <automata_> So that would take the solenoid force during continuous holding 12 Kg => 120N ... is that right?
[19:39:45] <L84Supper> automata_, so it's just pressing on a small button?
[19:40:33] <automata_> It is going to punch a tool out of the ATC hold...
[19:40:44] <automata_> ATC - automatic toolchanger
[19:40:49] <L84Supper> why 2x vs 0.5x ?
[19:41:27] <automata_> 6 kg/cm2 pressure will get 12 Kg force on 0.5 cm2 area
[19:41:34] <skunkworks> automata_, maybe a screw and a motor?
[19:42:10] <L84Supper> automata_, how fast does it need to operate?
[19:42:14] <automata_> That is what my friend also want to do.. but a solenoid seems much simpler design...
[19:43:07] <automata_> I donot have the speed data. But about the same as a pneumatic cylinder runnign at 6 bar
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[19:44:25] <automata_> I want to pullout the pneumatic cylinder and replace it with a solenoid...
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[19:51:11] <tjb1> JT-Shop: Did you get a chance?
[19:51:24] <JT-Shop> tjb1: just did, what am I looking for?
[19:51:43] <tjb1> when it pauses around 30 seconds that box is the lower screw support, is that needed?
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[20:01:47] <JT-Shop> tjb1: I can't tell what that is from the video... I see the box but the rest of the detail is dark
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[20:02:08] <tjb1> Its just a box with a bearing in it
[20:04:33] <jd896_laptop> hi every one
[20:06:56] <jd896_laptop> this might be one for john t but are there many running a plasma table as when im cutting say 12mm plus plate with my gantry machine with a powermaxx 85 (plenty of cutting power for the material) im getting distorted corners as it looks like the machine needs a pause in the corners how can i get this to happen
[20:08:02] <cpresser> jd896_laptop: look for G64
[20:08:25] <cpresser> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TrajectoryControl
[20:08:26] <jd896_laptop> yeah i currently am useing i think g64 p0.01
[20:11:23] <jd896_laptop> i can get the torch to stop at the corners but it looks like it needs to stay to allow the bottom of the plasma arc to catchup and fully cut the corner
[20:12:25] <cpresser> jd896_laptop: oh sorry, i did misread your statement. you are looking for a pause, not for smooth movements :)
[20:12:49] <jd896_laptop> yes mate thats the one
[20:13:04] <jd896_laptop> would it just be a dwell command maybe ?
[20:13:16] <cpresser> you could do that in gcode
[20:13:41] <cpresser> exacly, dwell. but that might be not so easy depending on your CAM
[20:13:54] <JT-Shop> jd896_laptop: sometimes you have to do a loop at the corner if the plasma is going a bit fast and the plasma stream is lagging behind
[20:13:55] <tjb1> JT-Shop: I figure if I remove that lower support and place the nut right, I can get rid of about 7" of screw and not have to notch the plate
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[20:14:23] <JT-Shop> tjb1: sounds plausable to me
[20:14:43] * JT-Shop heads to the woods to try and run over a squirrel on the bike
[20:16:23] <jd896_laptop> ive seen the loop before in cam software but the job just done ( cutting dranage slots in a sawbed adapter plate ) the scrap part was the internal of the rectangle so looping not an option i think
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[21:02:23] <tjb1> I do get tired of remaking everything
[21:02:25] <tjb1> :)
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[21:19:06] <andypugh> tjb1: Why do you want to get rid of it?
[21:19:19] <tjb1> The support block?
[21:19:30] <andypugh> It is hard to say if it is necessary, because I don't know what it is fastened to.
[21:19:42] <tjb1> Its bolted to that extrusion
[21:19:56] <tjb1> Supports the free end of the acme screw that drives the Z up and down
[21:20:55] <andypugh> Well, it will stop the screw whipping, I expect.
[21:21:07] <tjb1> The screw is only about 15" long
[21:21:12] <andypugh> It might be the thrust bearing too.
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[21:21:19] <tjb1> and I can make it to the point where the screw will only be about 7" long
[21:21:33] <tjb1> And at a max about 5" unsupported on the end
[21:21:43] <andypugh> what harm is it doing?
[21:21:49] <tjb1> Its in the way of the Z plate
[21:22:10] <andypugh> Ah.
[21:22:17] <andypugh> Make it smaller?
[21:22:36] <tjb1> Would require me to cut a notch ~3" deep into the z-plate
[21:22:56] <andypugh> Does it add any stiffness to the rails? It looks like it might control their separation.
[21:22:59] <tjb1> Im not sure if I can knock .250 off of it, I will check when im back to the room
[21:23:14] <andypugh> No drawings or models?
[21:23:14] <tjb1> The rails?
[21:24:02] <tjb1> Its basically like this - http://www.cncrouterparts.com/parts-list-for-acme-axis-p-58.html but I have another piece 5 at the end
[21:24:44] <andypugh> automata: Have you considered a solenoid or motor operating a brake cylinder (possibly from a bicycle) to actuate the existing parts.
[21:25:17] <tjb1> andypugh: this is the part in question - http://www.cncrouterparts.com/bearing-block-and-cover-p-29.html
[21:25:48] <tjb1> Take .250 off the top of that might make it worthless :)
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[21:29:48] <tjb1> I can keep the bearing block but I would have to pocket .275 out of the z plate to do so
[21:30:03] <tjb1> Which would you recommend?
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[21:30:31] <andypugh> tjb1: If you have another similar part at the top, and that misses the other parts, then I am not sure what the problem is.
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[21:31:07] <tjb1> The Z doesnt travel down far enough to hit the upper one
[21:31:18] <andypugh> (looks at other pictures)
[21:31:26] <andypugh> Which router design is yours?
[21:31:35] <tjb1> Mine is custom ;)
[21:32:04] <tjb1> http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/320464_4394173648473_1602412952_n.jpg
[21:32:07] <tjb1> That should explain it
[21:32:32] <andypugh> The site has pictures showing the nut fastened to the frame, moving motor, and nut fastened to router, stationary motor.
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[21:33:10] <andypugh> Well..
[21:33:33] <andypugh> What sort of bearing do you have in each plate?
[21:34:21] <tjb1> Those are just radial bearings in the plate, then I have the thrust bearing at each end but I can move the lower thrust bearing up to the top to fully constrain the acme scrwe
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[21:35:00] <andypugh> Both thrust bearings at the same end is a rather better idea.
[21:35:41] <tjb1> Not a problem ;)
[21:35:43] <andypugh> The most you want at the bottom is a needle roller, it needs to be a bearing with deliberately zero axial constraint.
[21:36:08] <andypugh> (A ball bearing that can float axially in its housing is also good)
[21:37:08] <tjb1> I have another piece of acme screw that is long enough to try this, I will drop the lower bearing support and move both thrust bearings up to the top. I will also move the nut higher on the plate so I can make the screw shorter.
[21:37:16] <andypugh> As it is, there is going to be a slight tendency for the aluminium extrusion to expand at a different rate to the steel plate and put a but of a bow in it. You don't want that also messing up the bearing preload.
[21:37:43] <andypugh> Yes, the screw wants to be as short as possible.
[21:38:38] <tjb1> Ill move it as high as possible that it wont interfere with the upper thrust bearings
[21:39:28] <tjb1> Id rather not pocket the notch in either because if the plate flexes it could lock up onto that bearing block also
[21:40:34] <andypugh> I think that the bottom block might well be counterproductive in some ways.
[21:42:06] <tjb1> In that picture I showed you, the plate is fixed and motor/extrusion move up and down so I am trying to achieve the maximum lift I can get
[21:44:16] <tjb1> Once I get it done and working I may end up cutting the whole z down to save weight
[21:44:31] <tjb1> and by that I mean shortening the extrusion and flatstock
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[21:46:32] <tjb1> Thanks andypugh
[21:49:50] <tjb1> I was going to put 1.5" holes in the plate but each one only gives me .09 lbs back...
[21:50:19] <andypugh> Titanium!
[21:50:42] <tjb1> Dont think I can get that for free ;)
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[21:52:02] <tjb1> One more andy, this picture - http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/320464_4394173648473_1602412952_n.jpg If I counterbore those it only leaves ~.125 meat under the screw. Would you say that is adequate?
[21:53:05] <andypugh> What size screws?
[21:54:14] <tjb1> 3/8-16
[21:54:28] <andypugh> Have you considered countersunk screws? They leave a lot more metal in the base material.
[21:56:36] <tjb1> Ill check if I can get them free from school :)
[21:57:05] <andypugh> I think that 3mm under the head of an M10 bolt sounds a bit sparse. I would probably be using countersunk socket screws at that point, or possibly low-head types: http://www.amazon.com/8-16-Coarse-Holo-Krome-Socket-Screws/dp/B002CI21V4
[21:57:19] <andypugh> But you probably don't want to buy that many :-)
[21:58:43] <tjb1> Ill just counterbore the 2 needed
[21:58:52] <tjb1> 2 are in the way of the motor mount so ill just do those
[22:01:51] <andypugh> Sounds a little untidy :-)
[22:02:07] <tjb1> Only way it fits :)
[22:02:11] <andypugh> What's on the other end?
[22:02:25] <andypugh> ie, what do the bolts go in to?
[22:03:19] <andypugh> It just occured to me that perhaps they just hold guide wheels directly, and they might need to be stiff.
[22:03:55] <tjb1> The other end?
[22:04:00] <tjb1> Carriages bolt directly to that plate
[22:04:16] <andypugh> But the carriages are assemblies?
[22:04:39] <andypugh> The bolts you are talking about countersinking, what do they do?
[22:05:23] <tjb1> Hold the plate to carriages
[22:08:04] <andypugh> http://www.cncrouterparts.com/extended-linear-carriage-with-abec-7-bearings-p-35.html
[22:08:05] <andypugh> ?
[22:08:45] <tjb1> Yes
[22:08:53] <tjb1> 4 of those mount to this plate
[22:09:10] <andypugh> I think you can probably afford to countersink them all.
[22:09:12] <tjb1> 2 allow the z extrusion to move up and down, 2 allow the z assembly to move on the Y axis/gantry
[22:09:27] <tjb1> this plate is basically an interface for the 4 carriages to connect
[22:09:28] <andypugh> If you are using all the tapped holes.
[22:09:38] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:09:46] <tjb1> I can only use 2 on one carriage due to the motor mount bolts
[22:10:06] <andypugh> I meant counterbore above.
[22:10:19] <andypugh> Countersinking would be better.
[22:10:24] <tjb1> Yes, all 4 per carraige will be used
[22:10:31] <tjb1> *carriage...
[22:10:51] <andypugh> Better still (but too late now) would have been to dril and tap the plate and put the countersunk holes in the carriages.
[22:11:09] <andypugh> So the mounting screws pointed the other way.
[22:11:37] <tjb1> I could do that
[22:12:02] <tjb1> I would have to drill the holes on those carriages to .375+ though
[22:12:18] <andypugh> One thing about countersunk bolts.. They self-align really strongly. This is good if you drill the countersink holes carefully on a machine. It can be a problem if the countersinks are squiffy.
[22:12:39] <tjb1> I dont want self alignment, these carriages need to be moved then tightened into place :)
[22:12:42] <tjb1> Should of stated that
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[22:12:59] <andypugh> tjb1: A bigger issue is that the holes in the plate are now too big to tap.
[22:13:05] <tjb1> Due to variances in the CRS plate, I may need to move them in or out
[22:13:15] <tjb1> Im making a brand new plate tomorrow :D
[22:16:00] <tjb1> out of class, thanks for your help andypugh
[22:16:18] <tjb1> May have to put them on the face because I need to mount a sensor bracket on the other side of the carriage
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