#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-06-02

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[00:03:35] <andypugh> yes, Gnd the /A etc
[00:03:39] <gene77> You will probably want to bias the fixed input at 1/2 VCC, or whatever the mid point of the active sides swing is. You will lose the noise immunity of the differential input though, so be carefull of the grounding and shielding.
[00:04:04] <andypugh> Ah, sorry, I answered the wrong question
[00:04:12] <gene77> The 7i47 isn't differential Andy?
[00:04:41] <Tom_itx> yes it is
[00:04:45] <Tom_itx> i have one
[00:05:03] <Tom_itx> you can use it single ended
[00:05:08] <Tom_itx> if you add a couple resistors
[00:05:08] <andypugh> I think we are talking differential card and TTL encoder?
[00:07:15] <jdhNC> differential 7i47, TTL output from sensor
[00:10:00] <Tom_itx> my MPG is ttl
[00:10:17] <Tom_itx> and it's wired to it
[00:10:45] <jdhNC> directly, or with a bias on the other side?
[00:11:10] <Tom_itx> i forget
[00:11:38] <Tom_itx> bias i think since i didn't use the differential outputs on it
[00:13:50] <jdhNC> can I use the same bias input for all 3 or do they need their own?
[00:13:57] <andypugh> I think you can ground the /inputs. There is still a difference to detect.
[00:14:17] <andypugh> If only pcw_home were here!
[00:15:01] <jdhNC> he said hooking up SE switches was ugly, grounding one side isn't particularly ugly to me.
[00:15:37] <jdhNC> but, seems like it would be getting 0 and +5, differential enough.
[00:16:58] <Tom_itx> andypugh i used a couple resistors
[00:17:05] <Tom_itx> i can check the values in a bit
[00:17:10] <jdhNC> for each one?
[00:17:33] <Tom_itx> no i use 2 or 3 though
[00:17:38] <Tom_itx> not one for each one
[00:18:40] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/pendant.jpg
[00:18:43] <Tom_itx> you can see them there
[00:22:10] <Tom_itx> ok, hold on.. i got about 3 things going on at once here
[00:24:50] <Tom_itx> i think they are 1k
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[00:25:15] <Tom_itx> make a divider GND--1k--pin--1k---+5
[00:25:25] <Tom_itx> then tap off the pin for a few others
[00:25:37] <Tom_itx> should be able to drive 2 or 3 off each divider
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[00:35:05] <jdhNC> 1k random or by design?
[00:35:15] <Tom_itx> i think he suggested that
[00:36:05] <Tom_itx> it's hard to see them on that pic but if you look close
[00:36:19] <jdhNC> I see them on P3, not on P4
[00:36:30] <Tom_itx> they may not be on all of them
[00:36:44] <Tom_itx> i used 2 or 3 iirc
[00:36:56] <Tom_itx> gimme a sec and i'll look closer
[00:37:04] <Tom_itx> tryin to finish something up here
[00:39:03] <jdhNC> looks like a/, b/ are tied to +5
[00:39:27] <jdhNC> not /, just the A, B, +5vdc
[00:39:51] <jdhNC> or maybe I'll go print the pinouts again.
[00:40:04] <JT-Shop> might have a wire or three confused
[00:42:07] <jdhNC> probably, their A and A/ seem backwards to me
[00:44:57] <Tom_itx> hmm i'm measuring about 600 ohms on one and 1k on the other
[00:45:05] <Tom_itx> it must not be a balanced divider
[00:45:25] <Tom_itx> and i didn't take good notes :(
[00:45:30] <Tom_itx> not like me
[00:45:45] <jdhNC> is the one to gnd or +5 higher?
[00:45:52] <jdhNC> or what is the bias voltage?
[00:46:36] <Tom_itx> 1k to 5v
[00:46:55] <Tom_itx> lemme plug it in
[00:47:50] <jdhNC> so 2ish volts?
[00:48:08] <Tom_itx> aww shit
[00:48:24] <Tom_itx> i pulled a wire off and have no idea where it goes now
[00:49:01] <Tom_itx> ok i'll worry about that later
[00:50:04] <Tom_itx> about 1.8v
[00:50:09] <Tom_itx> yeah 2 ish
[00:50:52] <jdhNC> thanks
[00:51:14] <jdhNC> wonder if R choice affects rise tim of the encoder input?
[00:51:22] <Tom_itx> yes
[00:51:34] <Tom_itx> too big and it may not work
[00:51:55] <Tom_itx> even though the divider is 2v
[00:51:59] <Tom_itx> current drop
[00:52:22] <Tom_itx> these values work
[00:53:14] <Tom_itx> now, where the hell does this wire...
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[01:00:23] <Tom_itx> mmm it goes there, but why was that screw loose
[01:00:48] <jymmm> did you tin the wire?
[01:01:26] <Tom_itx> has nothing to do with the screw being unscrewed
[01:01:39] <jymmm> but did you TIN it?
[01:02:39] * Tom_itx makes a note that wire runs the spindle
[01:03:11] <jymmm> Tom_itx: Why are you avoiding my question, it was pretty simple
[01:03:23] <Tom_itx> i probably did, i don't recall atm
[01:03:38] <andypugh> Ah, well, there you go.
[01:03:38] <Tom_itx> not avoiding. multitasking
[01:03:50] <jymmm> If you use screw or crimp, you shouldn't tin/solder.
[01:03:51] <jdhNC> you tin wires for screw terminals? Don't they break?
[01:04:01] <jymmm> jdhNC: uh huh
[01:04:08] <andypugh> Bootlace ferrules FTW
[01:04:10] <jdhNC> I like weidmuller ferrules
[01:04:22] <jdhNC> or bootlace if you are so inclined.
[01:04:25] <jymmm> ferrules are cool
[01:04:27] <Tom_itx> ok but that's not why the screw was nearly falling out. it was clearly unscrewed
[01:04:35] <andypugh> Gremlins
[01:04:42] <jdhNC> actually, I've decided that I would just as soon let the techs do it.
[01:04:57] <jymmm> Tom_itx: a screw can come loos if it doens't have anything to bite into
[01:05:22] <jymmm> but if it came all the way out, that's a different matter
[01:05:27] * Tom_itx is not traveling this road tonight
[01:05:33] <jymmm> heh
[01:06:08] <andypugh> My dad, somewhere, has a ferrule crimp. I should steal it, he definitely has no use for it.
[01:06:08] <Tom_itx> it's been sitting in a drawer untouched for several weeks
[01:06:41] <jymmm> andypugh: Yes, yes you should =)
[01:07:15] <jdhNC> I have a weidmuller PZ4 I got somewhere
[01:07:21] <Connor> I have a Coax cable crimper that has a small crimper on it I use for ferrules.. It makes them kind flat.. but they work
[01:07:22] <Tom_itx> damn, i had a run on programmers today.
[01:07:26] <Tom_itx> need to get them out
[01:08:18] <jymmm> Tom_itx: WHAAAAAAT?! You haven't made a automatic packing, labeling, and shipping machine yet?!
[01:08:27] <jdhNC> Tom; word of mouth or avrfreaks or something?
[01:08:57] <Tom_itx> it was on freaks early on but that was well over a year ago
[01:09:13] <Tom_itx> it's on my pages but that's about it
[01:09:59] <Tom_itx> another failed arduino needed one
[01:10:01] <andypugh> The one I am thinking of is several thin metal plates interleaved and V-shaped, so you get a rectangular crimp of arbitrary size.
[01:10:01] <Tom_itx> :)
[01:10:55] <jymmm> Tom_itx: you dislike them that much?
[01:11:38] <Tom_itx> dislike what?
[01:11:44] <jymmm> ardunio
[01:11:53] <Tom_itx> seems like the UNO has had it's share of problems
[01:12:04] <jymmm> oh, just the uno?
[01:12:20] <Tom_itx> it's got it's place but i'd rather see ppl learn c and program instead of just using someone's library
[01:12:52] <andypugh> You can do that too
[01:12:52] <Tom_itx> the uno used a small atmel usb chip to replace the FTDI chip for cost savings i think
[01:13:24] <jdhNC> why don't they just get two arduinos and use one to program?
[01:13:27] <Tom_itx> i forget which chip, i think it was the atmega8u2
[01:13:37] <andypugh> I semed to end up using direct register writes most of the time, so hardly even see.
[01:13:45] <jymmm> i thought they went with soft USB?
[01:13:49] <andypugh> Err, C
[01:14:05] <jdhNC> I know a guy that bought 20 bare atmega8u-somethings and has been trying to load a bootloader for a week.
[01:14:05] <Tom_itx> jymmm, it uses LUFA which uses hardware usb
[01:14:21] <jymmm> ah
[01:14:24] <Tom_itx> the 8u is too small
[01:14:28] <Tom_itx> for much of anything
[01:14:48] <Tom_itx> they modified lufa to fit on it for just the serial i think
[01:15:10] <jdhNC> https://picasaweb.google.com/112430417093824344570/HUDHolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCJuvm5LNuqSk1wE#5749241293779900258
[01:15:19] <jymmm> Oh, whats a local source for high temp (fiberglass) hookup wire?
[01:15:25] <jdhNC> that, and the next few pics are why it takes me forever to get to anything.
[01:16:05] <Tom_itx> that looks very organized
[01:16:06] <Connor> jdhNC: You have your own Scuba tank Cascade filling station ?
[01:16:20] <jdhNC> yep
[01:16:27] <jdhNC> and helium and oxygen
[01:16:44] <jymmm> jdhNC: Jsut open the valvle on a couple of those tanks and leave the soldering iton on high under a pile of oily rangs
[01:16:47] <jymmm> rags
[01:16:58] <jymmm> jdhNC: instant cleanup
[01:17:00] <Connor> You won't have any issues doing a drawbar on air.. just hook it up to the cascade.. you'll never hear the compressor run.
[01:17:34] <Connor> jdhNC: You going to post up some pictures of your G0704?
[01:17:36] <jymmm> jdhNC: and why so many tanks?
[01:17:38] <jdhNC> I fill the banks to 4200psi. Excessive for a drawbar
[01:17:50] <Connor> jdhNC: Just regulate it down.. :)
[01:18:08] <Connor> jymmm: So He can fill up scuba tanks quickly.
[01:18:15] <jymmm> ah
[01:18:15] <jdhNC> jymm: 4 helium, 4 oxygen, 8 air(kind of air anyway)
[01:18:19] <Connor> without having to wait for the compressor to build up to 3000+ PSI
[01:18:39] <jdhNC> compressor only does 6cfm.
[01:18:44] <jymmm> heh
[01:19:31] <jdhNC> I had 40-something scuba tanks too but sold some to pay for machine/parts
[01:19:49] <jymmm> and not one of them chained to the wall =)
[01:20:04] <Tom_itx> gotta have priorities
[01:20:20] <Tom_itx> jymmm is safety safety
[01:20:26] <Tom_itx> i bet he works for OSHA
[01:20:38] <jymmm> who?
[01:20:43] <Tom_itx> U
[01:21:11] <jymmm> 3000PSI missile in a can, no thanks.
[01:21:23] <Tom_itx> did you see that on mythbusters?
[01:21:29] <jymmm> no
[01:21:49] <Tom_itx> they stuck one in a tube and whacked the end off it
[01:21:59] <jdhNC> all the bottles are chained
[01:22:16] <jymmm> I saw the hole in the wall on my next shift
[01:22:58] <jymmm> damn certified forklift drivers!
[01:23:35] <jymmm> jdhNC: =)
[01:23:40] <Tom_itx> i saw the after affects of a drop hammer flywheel coming loose
[01:24:04] <jdhNC> that could hurt
[01:24:08] <jdhNC> connor: https://picasaweb.google.com/112430417093824344570/HUDHolder?authkey=Gv1sRgCJuvm5LNuqSk1wE#5749241524526618914
[01:24:14] <jdhNC> and the following two
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[01:27:37] <andypugh> That looks a _lot_ like mine.
[01:28:34] <andypugh> I would seriously consider adding a big lump of stuff to the back of the column.
[01:29:06] <Tom_itx> brace?
[01:29:13] <jdhNC> for vertical rigidity?
[01:29:33] <jdhNC> I/U beam up the back?
[01:29:48] <andypugh> Since I machined the slot between the dovetails to fit the internal ballscrew the torsional stiffness of the column has massively reduced
[01:30:17] <jdhNC> plate would fix that?
[01:30:38] <andypugh> Well, ideally a special casting, but a 1" strip of steel would be good too.
[01:30:59] <andypugh> plate where?
[01:31:30] <jdhNC> on the back. Make it like most of a torsion box
[01:31:51] <andypugh> Yes, that's what I am suggesting
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[01:33:04] <andypugh> Original design, ballscrew at the back, full box column: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5398215426996934626
[01:34:28] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5477167759873892978 and following, slot between the ways and internal screw. The reduction in torsional stiffness was upsetting.
[01:35:29] <Connor> What's the deal with that thin sheet?
[01:35:45] <andypugh> it keeps the swarf out of the slot
[01:36:12] <andypugh> But it "tunnels" through the head so it can be continous.
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[01:36:22] <jdhNC> did you remove all the middle webbing?
[01:36:40] <andypugh> There was none
[01:37:05] <andypugh> Ah, unless you mean something other than what I am guessing you mean
[01:37:40] <andypugh> This is what it looks like now: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5611904480713910226
[01:40:32] <andypugh> (3-phase motor, internal ballscrew, tilting head… I have spent a packet and lots of time and it is still a lump of Chinese junk (actually, possibly an Indian knock-off of chinese junk). So I am now working on https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5600023876027435058
[01:41:15] <andypugh> Which is a proper machine tool made in Yorkshire by folk who cared.
[01:42:43] <jdhNC> my chinese finished surfaces look ok. The rest of the castings look like crap.
[01:43:04] <jdhNC> but, that is a serious hunk of metal.
[01:43:51] <andypugh> Somebody spent a fair bit of time scraping the saddle of my lathe. Each way fit beautifully. They just don't both fit at the same time, they are skewed.
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[01:54:33] <andypugh> Who speaks Makefile?
[01:54:50] <andypugh> I am fooling abut with RTNet.
[01:55:04] <andypugh> But is fails with the error at the end of http://pastebin.com/PgXUxGi2
[01:55:49] <andypugh> My suspcion is that it was tested with Xenomia, not RTAI. But I might be completely off the mark
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[02:08:35] <jdhNC> This? RT-extended kernel not found in $RTEXT_LINUX_DIR
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[02:58:57] <jymmm> Can CL be ued to tell a stepper to turn to (let's say) 270degrees?
[02:59:01] <jymmm> used
[02:59:38] <jymmm> navigational compass wise
[03:25:09] <Tom_itx> CL?
[03:25:21] <jymmm> CL == Classic Ladder
[03:25:25] <Tom_itx> if you convert degrees to steps
[03:25:28] <Tom_itx> why not?
[03:25:37] <Tom_itx> think A axis
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[03:27:40] <jymmm> I need to be able to say goto 90 ccw too as example.
[03:28:10] <jymmm> maybe a ardunio would be better for this, *shrug*
[03:28:31] <Tom_itx> how would you 'tell' it that?
[03:29:14] <jymmm> dont know, never used CL before, just inquiring about it's capabilities. If it can't even do it, no bother even trying.
[03:30:22] <Tom_itx> me either
[03:30:36] <Tom_itx> between software and hardware it can be done though
[03:31:54] <jymmm> that's every electronic/computer on the planet it can be done with =)
[03:32:05] <jymmm> plc, arduni, relay logic, etc =)
[03:33:18] <jymmm> Heck I could do it with MS-DOS if I tried hard enough
[03:33:53] <jymmm> But... What I CAN do and what I SHOULD do and not always the same =)
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[03:39:39] <Tom_itx> try it with a state machine on ram
[03:39:56] <jymmm> "state machine" ?
[03:41:08] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_machine
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[03:42:05] <jymmm> oh, heh.
[03:43:11] <Tom_itx> that _is_ what classic ladder is, isn't it?
[03:45:13] <Tom_itx> i've never really looked at it that close
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[05:11:32] <jdhNC> is there a way to replace the f2/machine-power with a physical button? I don't see a pin for it.
[05:17:33] <Tom_itx> there must be a way! it's linuxcnc...
[05:17:54] <Tom_itx> ok, i think my psu is officially done
[05:18:58] <Tom_itx> got the 50 for the steppers, broke out the centertap for 25 to go to my smps for the 5v electronics supply
[05:27:38] <jymmm> Tom_itx: As I understand it, CL is what/how PLC are programmed, so using a PC and LinuxCNC you can make your own PLC
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[05:30:24] <jdhNC> PLCs use things other than ladder also, grafcet/sfc, function blocks and probably others I haven't seen.
[05:30:45] <jymmm> we're talking strictly CL here and it's definition
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[06:57:38] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:05:17] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[10:12:56] <andypugh> logger[psha]:
[10:14:23] <andypugh> jymmm: Still wondering about stepp/CL?
[10:21:34] <jthornton> jdhNC, you around?
[10:43:40] <andypugh> jymmm: If you read back: The easy way is just to send a position to a stepgen. Stepgens have built-in speed and velocity limits, so the motor will just move to that position at that speed. Simply ignore the feedback.
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[12:19:21] <rott> hi, i got the mesa 5i25 and mesa 7i76, when i startup linuxcnc and need to choose a configuration, i cannot see these cards anywhere, just 5i20 and others ? do i need to select just one and configure it?
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[12:25:28] <micges> rott: yes, you must select on of them and when they will be copied to ~/linuxcnc/configs directory, then you can modify it
[12:26:01] <rott> arent there any configurations for these cards anywhere?
[12:26:14] <JT-Shop> rott: I have a sample config on my web site
[12:27:11] <rott> JT-Shop: can i get this?
[12:27:23] <JT-Shop> finding the link now
[12:28:55] <JT-Shop> can you stick around a few minutes? I see the 5i25-7i77 config so I need to upload the 5i25-7i76 config
[12:29:11] <rott> JT-Shop: no problem
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[12:32:45] <JT-Shop> the link should be gnipsel.com/linuxcnc/configs/5i25-7i76.zip
[12:34:10] <rott> JT-Shop: got it, thanks.
[12:34:21] <JT-Shop> np
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[12:42:17] <rott> i made a new folder called mf70, then i copied just the files from the zip into it and started linuxcnc, choosed there mf as config, and then i got this: http://pastebin.com/e1GVbb84
[12:42:35] <rott> do i need to copy some other files too into this new mf70 folder?
[12:43:19] <rott> Can not find -sec MOT -var MOT -num 1 and such errors
[12:44:05] <JT-Shop> let me check it out here on my 7i76 machine
[12:44:17] <micges> rott: please pastebin your hal file
[12:44:57] <andypugh> I think everyone gets those warnings at the moment
[12:45:03] <rott> JT-Shop: can i paste the hal file?
[12:45:45] <andypugh> The problem is here: [ 3862.887789] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: invalid token in config string: "sserial_mode0=00000000"
[12:45:55] <andypugh> Which LinuxCNC version arfe you running?
[12:46:26] <rott> andypugh: 2.5.0 i installed the newest ubuntu live-cd to harddisk
[12:46:42] <andypugh> Ah, yes, 2.5 it says in the pastebin
[12:49:01] <andypugh> I think it is meant to be sserial_port_0=00000000
[12:49:20] <JT-Shop> rott: no need I have the problem sorted out
[12:49:22] <andypugh> I am a bit vague on that, and I wrote the code!
[12:49:34] <JT-Shop> rott: open up your ini file
[12:49:48] <rott> JT-Shop: ok
[12:50:09] <JT-Shop> change CONFIG line to sserial_port_0=0XXX
[12:50:32] <JT-Shop> andypugh: kept changing thing LOL
[12:53:00] <rott> then i get this: http://pastebin.com/gYrK6gTf
[12:53:54] <JT-Shop> pastebin your ini file
[12:54:01] <rott> something with the hal file
[12:54:34] <rott> ini file http://pastebin.com/UwvXHDt5
[12:54:55] <JT-Shop> Your missing an underscore
[12:55:19] <rott> JT-Shop: ahhh
[12:55:26] <JT-Shop> sserial_port_0=0XXX
[12:55:47] <JT-Shop> CONFIG="sserial_port_0=0XXX"
[12:56:45] <rott> its going on, now i get this output: http://pastebin.com/FyDQuNQJ
[12:57:37] <JT-Shop> are you running 2.5?
[12:57:57] <rott> JT-Shop: yes
[12:58:08] <JT-Shop> and you have field power connected?
[12:59:12] <rott> on the 7i76 ? it gots the 5v power over the parallel cable if jumpers are set, or?
[13:00:40] <JT-Shop> if there is any net commands to the I/O you have to have 12-24v connected to field power
[13:00:54] <JT-Shop> I just checked the config and it runs without field power
[13:01:25] <rott> i connected the step- step+ dir- and dir+ of the TB2 block the the stepper-drives
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[13:01:52] <JT-Shop> be back in 30... breakfast is ready
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[13:05:23] <Motioncontrol> l
[13:08:02] <andypugh> rott: Can you run the sim-axis configuration OK?
[13:08:38] <andypugh> I am trying to figure out if it is a problem with your LinuxCNC or that specific config.
[13:10:14] <rott> andypugh: how do i run the sim-axis configuration?
[13:10:53] <rott> i think i need a 5v power supply for the 7i76 card, or?
[13:13:04] <rott> with the jumper W1 of the 7i76 i setup VIN to get power over parralle cable for the step/dir signals, but i think i need also 5v , setup with jumper W2 just for the chips on the card to run,or am i wrong?
[13:15:59] <rott> TB1 pin 5, logic power 8-32v needs to be connected ,or?
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[13:23:29] <JT-Shop> rott: both cards have jumpers that have to to be set for logic power
[13:24:09] <rott> i check
[13:28:34] <pcw_home> The 7I76 needs 5V power (which can come from the parallel cable) and field I/O power (from TB1)
[13:28:35] <pcw_home> for 5V power you need 7I76 W2 "left" and 5I25 W2 "up"
[13:28:51] <JT-Shop> morning Peter
[13:29:02] <pcw_home> Morning JT
[13:33:48] <andypugh> rott: type "linuxcnc" then in the selector dialog expand the examples, then sim, then axis, then axis.
[13:34:47] <rott> i cannot see the jumper settings on the 5i25 card right now, but the manual says, 5v for breakout boards is default disabled to not damage other breakout boards, so it seemed i need to enable this first, which means i need to power-down my pc. so till later
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[13:49:28] <rott> hi, i setup the W1 and W2 jumpers UP on the 5i25 to give power over parallel-cable, and now the CR1 LED is on, and i connected a 11V power-supply to TB1 pin5 gnd-to-TB1-pin8, but when i start linuxcnc i get this: http://pastebin.com/pivwimFK
[13:50:43] <rott> what is USRMOT ?
[13:51:27] <pcw_home> Oh the dreaded "waiting for s.axes" problem
[13:53:00] <andypugh> I wish I knew what caused that
[13:53:42] <andypugh> rott: Can you try one of the sim configs?
[13:54:00] <pcw_home> Ive seen it some times too (maybe from an unclean shutdown?)
[13:55:00] <rott> andypugh: when i start linuxcnc now, it does not show all configs, how can i choose the sim-config
[13:55:50] <andypugh> Can you click any "+" symbols?
[13:56:26] <rott> ah, yes, sim and which in this section?
[13:56:50] <andypugh> acis
[13:56:56] <andypugh> axis, I mean
[13:57:19] <andypugh> then possibly "axis" or "axi-mm"
[13:57:26] <jthornton> sample configs>sim>axis
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[13:57:58] <jthornton> sample configurations>sim>axis>axis
[13:58:01] <rott> andypugh: i choosed sim-axis-axis and it seemed the error is the same USRMOT
[13:58:14] <andypugh> OK, that's interesting.
[13:58:15] <Helios> What's the most compact device for grinding (lunar regolith) moon rock into dust?
[13:58:58] <rott> Helios: other moon-rock, so you dont need to transport any device :)
[13:59:10] <jthornton> rott, have you ran any config on this machine?
[13:59:13] <pcw_home> is this a fresh install or an upgrade?
[13:59:14] <andypugh> Now try sim->tklinuxcnc
[13:59:31] <rott> its the ubuntu live-cd installed onto harddisk
[13:59:37] <rott> andypugh: ok
[13:59:49] <Helios> Yeah so you can refine moonrock with an electronic membrane gate and chemosensors and then feed them into the electron beam melter to make new parts with from solar energy
[14:00:01] <andypugh> Helios: That's an interesting question. Do you want to do this in-situ or at home?
[14:00:01] <Helios> A von neumann probe may yet be possible
[14:00:09] <Helios> Test it on Earth first
[14:00:12] <Helios> Test it in the desert
[14:00:20] <Helios> If it works well there, market it
[14:00:32] <rott> andypugh: sim-tklinuxcnc-tklinuxcnc or
[14:00:45] <Helios> Then send one up, I mean come on, Elon Musk can fly his very own ship to the ISS, anyone can do it
[14:00:53] <Helios> He Beat Branson :P
[14:01:08] <andypugh> Helios: This seems an unusal place to ask these questions.
[14:01:16] <andypugh> rott: Yes
[14:01:34] <rott> andypugh: also USRMOT
[14:01:43] <Helios> How's u and kate?
[14:03:03] <rott> andypugh: Cannot find -sec MOT .... is not interresting?
[14:03:12] <andypugh> rott: There goes that idea
[14:03:20] <rott> andypugh: ok
[14:03:43] <rott> andypugh: do i need to load the fpga or is linuxcnc doing this?
[14:03:56] <andypugh> The FPGA is pre-loaded
[14:03:58] <pcw_home> using an old config with 2.4 (and maybe 2.5) seems to cause this problem
[14:04:05] <pcw_home> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/29689
[14:04:31] <andypugh> But the sample configs should be OK
[14:04:52] <pcw_home> there is no 5I25 sample config AFAIK
[14:05:31] <andypugh> Yes, but we are failing to run even the tklinuxcnc sample ocnfig
[14:05:58] <pcw_home> what PC hardware?
[14:06:17] <rott> pcw_home: what do you mean?
[14:07:02] <rott> pcw_home: cpu and stuff? quad-core 4+3.2GHZ 8GB RAM
[14:07:34] <Helios> How cool wold 3d printing inconel 710 be?
[14:07:58] <Helios> 1600º thermistor
[14:08:03] <pcw_home> http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net/msg26008.html
[14:08:05] <pcw_home> is some more info
[14:08:41] <andypugh> I don't think it is that one this time.
[14:10:23] <rott> damn, need to go, back at night or tommorrow, thanks for the help till now
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[14:10:30] <andypugh> Lets try a no-graphics config. Does sim-->keystick work?
[14:10:48] <andypugh> Bah!
[14:10:55] <Connor> I hate that.
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[14:19:58] <andypugh> I have a problem with the brake light on my offroad bike (it needs to work to get the MOT test and be legal)
[14:20:30] <andypugh> But the bike has no battery, so the engine has to be running to do any tests
[14:21:03] <andypugh> And the bike is a semi-competition one, so has no idle, so I have to hold the throttle.
[14:21:23] <andypugh> So, troubleshooting the electrics is non-trivial.
[14:22:07] <andypugh> And, of course, everything is full of mud.
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[14:26:59] <pcw_home> If you can get to the various circuit nodes, an Ohmmeter should work
[14:27:16] <pcw_home> (with power off)
[14:29:16] <Valen> continuity test should do it
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[14:29:27] <rott> hi, got an hour left :)
[14:30:45] <rott> i got with tklinuxcn this output: http://pastebin.com/kcTWYF5w
[14:31:37] <rott> is there anyway to test this USRMOT another way? some shell testing?
[14:32:45] <pcw_home> you can try running from a terminal window
[14:34:30] <rott> the jumper W1 on the 7i76 needs to be on the right-hand when i connect a power-supply to VIN , or?
[14:36:57] <pcw_home> Yes but there usually no reason to do that (leave in the left hand position and supply field power)
[14:37:23] <andypugh> rott: Can you try the sim-keystick config?
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[14:37:26] <micges> rott: please paste you hal and ini file somewhere
[14:38:43] <rott> pcw_home: so left-hand jumper and power-supply connected to TB1-pin1
[14:40:15] <pcw_home> Yes +12/24 to pin 1 (bottom!) and 12/24V common to pin 8
[14:41:18] <rott> pcw_home: that i got
[14:41:40] <rott> andypugh: the sim-keystick showed up a window, but this was empty and it closed after some seconds
[14:42:00] <rott> micges: of the sim configs ?
[14:42:21] <micges> no, JT configs after your changes
[14:42:32] <pcw_home> the second (rightmost) yellow led should light if you have field power applied
[14:42:40] <rott> pcw_home: should the CR2 LED be on? its all time off at mine
[14:42:54] <rott> pcw_home: the CR1 LED is on
[14:44:10] <pcw_home> have you tried rebooting and running the sim configs first?
[14:44:52] <pcw_home> CR1 is local 5V (from the 5I25) CR2 needs field power
[14:45:20] <rott> i must check the field power, the CR2 led is all time off
[14:46:59] <pcw_home> (not that has anything to do with your s.axes problem)
[14:48:40] <rott> pcw_home: when i got no field power, it got no logic power, or?
[14:49:23] <pcw_home> field power is just for the 12/24V digital I/O
[14:49:38] <rott> micges: hal http://pastebin.com/JYNBVNgs
[14:49:44] <pcw_home> (since its electrically isolated from the PC)
[14:50:12] <rott> micges: ini http://pastebin.com/sfXGNy3K
[14:50:46] <rott> pcw_home: so i just need the power over parallel-cable to run linuxcnc
[14:51:16] <micges> rott: linuxcnc will run with 5i25 without any 7i7x attached
[14:51:51] <rott> micges: ok, so my problem is with the 5i25 ?
[14:51:55] <pcw_home> step/dir, encoder, and RS-422 I/O expansion need the local 5V (CR1)
[14:51:57] <pcw_home> 16 output bits and 32 input bits need field power
[14:52:32] <pcw_home> No your problem is unrelated as far as I can tell
[14:53:01] <rott> pcw_home: you said something about running in terminal ? what?
[14:53:07] <pcw_home> especially if sim will not run
[14:53:44] <micges> rott: please run sim/axis_mm.ini config first
[14:54:20] <pcw_home> (and probably reboot first in case something got borked)
[14:54:26] <micges> yes
[14:55:26] <rott> ok, with sim/axis_mm.ini you mean sim-axis-axis ?
[14:56:19] <rott> ah sim-axis-axim_mm
[14:56:24] <rott> or?
[14:56:24] <micges> yes
[14:56:27] <rott> ok
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[14:59:13] <rott> hi, this is the result of axis_mm : http://pastebin.com/7zU7kww2
[15:00:33] <rott> if all the config files want to "communicate" with USRMOT , and this "timed out" the all other configs also will not work, or?
[15:01:04] <micges> it seems so
[15:01:12] <micges> rott: step by step
[15:01:22] <rott> ok
[15:01:31] <micges> what is your system and how you created it?
[15:01:48] <rott> micges: linuxcnc live-cd installed onto harddisk
[15:01:58] <rott> linuxcnc 2.5.0
[15:02:44] <micges> open terminal and type 'latency-test'
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[15:03:23] <rott> a window opens with a "reset statistics" button
[15:03:55] <micges> what is jitter in 1ms thread?
[15:04:22] <rott> all values are 0
[15:04:44] <micges> ok
[15:05:14] <micges> please pastebin outputs from: 'dmesg' and 'lshw'
[15:06:43] <rott> micges: dmesg rest : http://pastebin.com/wUcF5Syp
[15:07:38] <rott> micges: lshw http://pastebin.com/DkgSgBhk
[15:09:05] <andypugh> There is some sort of deep-rooted problem here.
[15:09:33] <cpresser> you might want to disable fglrx
[15:09:50] <rott> cpresser: how?
[15:10:05] <cpresser> uninstall it?
[15:10:17] <cpresser> remove the kernel-module
[15:12:06] <andypugh> rmmod?
[15:12:25] <rott> cpresser: depends on agpgart and this is in use by fglrx
[15:12:53] <cpresser> this stuff is all connected to the proprietary gfx-driver from ati
[15:13:03] <rott> i remove it through the ubuntu software center, or?
[15:13:16] <cpresser> try that first
[15:14:40] <rott> its remove but lsmod still shows it, i think i need to reboot, till later
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[15:15:32] <jymmm> andypugh: It wasn't grease gun fed as a micro mill???
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[15:18:39] <andypugh> jymmm: Huh?
[15:19:01] <rott> nothing changed, USRMOT
[15:19:15] <pfred1> are we speaking in palindromes today?
[15:19:18] <rott> lsmod |grep fglrx does not show anything
[15:19:21] <jymmm> andypugh: re: 2012-06-02 08:09:05 andypugh: There is some sort of deep-rooted problem here.
[15:19:43] * pfred1 has a junk fetish
[15:19:52] <cpresser> rott: check dmesg for fglrx
[15:19:53] <andypugh> Have you missed your medication again jymmm
[15:20:03] <jymmm> *sigh*
[15:20:34] <pfred1> would fglrx get loaded on boot?
[15:20:43] <rott> cpresser: nothing in dmesg, also at startup ubuntu warns that the fglrx is not there to load, so i run on lowgraphics
[15:20:47] <pfred1> I guess dmesg logs after boot though
[15:21:00] <pfred1> check your X log
[15:21:06] <pfred1> it has what is really going on
[15:21:11] <jymmm> andypugh: Freud, breastfed as a baby, greasefed as a micromill, get it now?
[15:21:13] <pfred1> cd /var/log
[15:21:25] <cpresser> you dont need nice graphics for a CNC-Machine :)
[15:21:38] <andypugh> Oh. But we are talking about a PC?
[15:21:41] <pfred1> well axis does use GL
[15:21:42] <rott> pfred1: nothing with fglrx
[15:21:52] <cpresser> mesa-glx runs fine even in vesa-mode
[15:21:53] <JT-Shop> if the latency test is all 0's is the real time kernal not loaded
[15:22:07] <pfred1> rott you have to less your X log to see what is actually being used
[15:22:14] <jymmm> andypugh: It was a joke, semantics be damned =)
[15:22:37] <pfred1> JT-Shop that just means you have a time machine
[15:22:51] <JT-Shop> rott: when you installed did you select use entire hard drive or was this a new hard drive
[15:22:53] <rott> pfred1: with less i need to search with my eyes, with grep i let the pc do the work
[15:23:11] <pfred1> rott nothing is not much to go on though
[15:23:47] <rott> pfred1: if i got no fglrx output ,then i cannot change it
[15:23:55] <pfred1> plus / searches in less it works like vi
[15:24:10] <andypugh> JT-Shop: rtapi is all loading OK, we are getting the Mesa card loaded and HAL pins made.
[15:24:24] <andypugh> Actually, I am not so sure about the HAL pins
[15:24:31] <rott> JT-Shop: most continous storage or anything like that, under entire hard drive
[15:24:40] <andypugh> rott: Can you open a terminal window?
[15:24:45] <rott> andypugh: yes
[15:24:48] <andypugh> type: halrun
[15:25:02] <rott> halcmd:
[15:25:08] <andypugh> loadrt Hostmot2
[15:25:20] <andypugh> (might be hostmot2)
[15:25:34] <andypugh> loadrt hm2_pci
[15:25:37] <andypugh> show pin
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[15:26:05] <rott> loadrt hostmot2 or hm2_pci ?
[15:26:12] <andypugh> both
[15:26:30] <andypugh> needs to be hostmot2 first, then hm2_pci
[15:26:41] <pfred1> wow just this one set of microclip leads costs $13
[15:26:43] <rott> yes
[15:26:51] <andypugh> lots of pins?
[15:26:55] <rott> yes
[15:26:58] <andypugh> Good.
[15:27:02] <andypugh> loadrt threads
[15:27:25] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.0.read thread1
[15:27:35] <pfred1> check out all this junk I got for $10 http://i.imgur.com/OCtWd.jpg
[15:27:36] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.write thread1
[15:28:08] <rott> andypugh: not hm2_5i25.0.write ?
[15:28:15] <andypugh> Yes.
[15:28:19] <rott> ok
[15:28:23] <andypugh> tab-competion is your friend
[15:28:26] <rott> with .0 ?
[15:28:32] <andypugh> Yes
[15:28:34] <pfred1> it can be
[15:28:50] <rott> andypugh: done
[15:28:55] <andypugh> addf hm2_5i25.0.pet-watchdog thread1
[15:29:08] <andypugh> start
[15:29:10] <jymmm> pfred1: flea market?
[15:29:18] <pfred1> jymmm yard sale
[15:29:32] <andypugh> You are now (hopefully) runing the realtime system
[15:29:35] <pfred1> I hit 3 community sales this morning only one was worth going to
[15:29:36] <jymmm> pfred1: cool, you've been have good luck lately
[15:29:37] <andypugh> if you type
[15:29:40] <andypugh> show thread
[15:29:47] <pfred1> jymmm hey I hit it hard
[15:30:00] <rott> halcmd: addf hm2_5i25.0.pet-watchdog thread1
[15:30:00] <rott> HAL: ERROR: function 'hm2_5i25.0.pet-watchdog' not found
[15:30:00] <rott> <stdin>:8: addf failed
[15:30:08] <pfred1> I got a really sweet crosscut saw today too but this isn't really the forum for that
[15:30:11] <jymmm> pfred1: What, watch the obituaries first?
[15:30:24] <andypugh> rott: pet_watchdog, maybe.
[15:30:26] <pfred1> yeah old people are better than young people find them on their last legs
[15:30:36] <jymmm> lol
[15:30:55] <rott> andypugh: yes, with underscore
[15:31:00] <andypugh> now start
[15:31:02] <pfred1> guy I bought the saw off of he'd better spend the money I gave him today
[15:31:09] <andypugh> and type show thread a few times
[15:31:20] <pfred1> he ain't got too many tomorrows in him
[15:31:35] <andypugh> The thread period should change, indicating that the realtime thread is running.
[15:31:49] <jymmm> pfred1: I thought you were cross re the obituaries + facebook + with engineering employment =)
[15:32:13] <pfred1> I passed on this wicked bell and howell stereo microscope they wanted $50 for it though
[15:32:22] <pfred1> it was probably worth thousands
[15:32:48] <andypugh> In fact, you can now type things like setp hm2_5i25.0.7i76.0.gpio.00.out 1 and set bits and things on the card, in theory, And I made up that pin name,
[15:32:51] <pfred1> guy was a micro biologist I figured it'd be good for doing electronics
[15:33:03] <jymmm> heh
[15:33:18] <pfred1> but $50 was too rich for my blood at that hour of the morning
[15:33:36] <rott> andypugh: sorry, over the pastebin limit: thats the show thread output, nothing changes: http://snipt.org/ujjQ7
[15:33:56] <jymmm> pfred1: Yeah, I understand
[15:34:31] <andypugh> rott: doesn't look good
[15:34:49] <micges> andypugh: same results as with 'latency-test'
[15:35:00] <andypugh> Can you open a second terminal window and do dmesg?
[15:35:04] <pfred1> does the CD image have the rtai test apps in it like /usr/realtime/testsuite/kern/latency/; time ./run
[15:35:26] <rott> andypugh: yes, something special
[15:35:27] <pfred1> tail -f /var/log/syslog updates in realtime
[15:35:40] <andypugh> pfred1: Yes, they are included in the install.
[15:35:46] <jdhNC> is there a way to replace the f2/machine-power with a physical button? I don't see any HAL item for it.
[15:35:59] <andypugh> jdhNC: In Halui?
[15:36:04] <pfred1> beats checking dmesg all the time
[15:36:19] <jymmm> pfred1: whats in the bags?
[15:36:41] <pfred1> mostly 1/2 watt resistors but some ICs and a 2n3055 transistor too they're like candy to me
[15:36:52] <jymmm> heh
[15:36:52] <pfred1> not the resistors but the other stuff
[15:37:03] <pfred1> I have literally tens of thousands of resistors
[15:37:09] <pfred1> if not hundreds of thousands
[15:37:25] <pfred1> most 1/4 watt though
[15:37:29] <jdhNC> andy: ah, must have missed those. Thanks.
[15:37:34] <jymmm> pfred1: Is that Pomona clips in the white bag?
[15:37:41] <pfred1> yeah loads of those
[15:37:47] <andypugh> jdhNC: halui.machine.off / halui.machine.on
[15:37:52] <pfred1> stacker banana jacks
[15:37:53] <jymmm> pfred1: They are nice
[15:37:57] <pfred1> yes they are
[15:38:04] <rott> andypugh: dmesg output of second terminal: http://snipt.org/ujjR8
[15:38:07] <pfred1> klein nut drivers too
[15:38:29] <pfred1> one of those probably $10 right there
[15:39:11] <Tom_itx> pfred1 are you gonna live long enough to use them all?
[15:39:22] <jymmm> lol
[15:39:25] <pfred1> Tom_itx my resistors?
[15:39:37] <Tom_itx> yep
[15:40:01] <andypugh> rott: It looks like, for some reason, rtai is not running on your machine. Everything thinks it is OK, but the functions are just not starting. USRMOT is the motion planner, which runs in realtime, and that is timing out.
[15:40:04] <pfred1> Tom_itx when I worked assembling PCBs well let's just say I ended up with a lot of surplus parts
[15:40:19] <pfred1> like trashbags
[15:40:35] <pfred1> I have tubes of ICs too
[15:40:45] <Tom_itx> i got a few leds that way once. they were amongst other things in a dumpster in Ca
[15:40:54] <pfred1> tape reel?
[15:40:56] <Tom_itx> somebody was kind enough to send me some
[15:40:57] <Tom_itx> yes
[15:40:59] <jymmm> One of the surplus stores here has a 4ft x 4ft hopper bin full of reels of FREE resistors, just take what you need, but be reasonable about it.
[15:41:13] <pfred1> yeah i have a lot of resistors on tape and bags of some cut and formed too
[15:41:22] <pfred1> we had cutting and forming machines
[15:41:26] <pfred1> we were kinda bigtime
[15:41:35] <rott> andypugh: but dmesg tells that i-pipe is creating domains and rtai is loading math and stuff, so its running, or?
[15:41:50] <pfred1> I made all the digital gasoline pumps once
[15:41:53] <andypugh> That's the really odd part.
[15:41:58] <pfred1> so good chance you've used my boards
[15:42:23] <andypugh> rtapi is installed and happy, but the RT code is not running.
[15:42:27] <rott> [ 668.807116] hm2: no firmware specified in config modparam! the board had better have firmware configured already, or this won't work
[15:42:51] <andypugh> That's how a 5i25 is, pre-installed firmware
[15:43:06] <pfred1> rott there's your problem!
[15:43:33] <pfred1> one thing I hate about Debian is how they wipe out all the firmware
[15:43:47] <andypugh> pfred1: No, this is a 5i25
[15:44:10] <pfred1> well it'd better be FOSS
[15:44:22] <pfred1> or debian would give it the axe!
[15:45:28] <pfred1> lately I've been having such troubles with my browser
[15:45:41] <pcw_home> All PCs depend on proprietary firmware
[15:45:44] <pfred1> I even went to mozilla and got a new one and it is doing the same thing to me
[15:45:55] <pfred1> pcw_home RMS' doesn't
[15:45:55] <andypugh> rott: Maybe (clutching at straws) a problem with the LAPIC.
[15:46:11] <pfred1> he'd firebomb your house or something
[15:46:19] <andypugh> rott: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TroubleShooting#emc2_doesn_t_run_missing_lapic
[15:46:28] <pfred1> make you listen to him sing the free software song
[15:46:38] <pfred1> personally I'd rather he firebombed my house
[15:47:40] <andypugh> rott: I need to go. And I am likley to be away for the next few days.
[15:48:02] <rott> andypugh: thanks for your help
[15:48:11] <andypugh> But it looks like a stange rtai installed, and loading, but not running problem.
[15:48:48] <rott> it seemed that apic is enabled
[15:49:09] <pcw_home> I know mozmck had trouble with the six core phenom I wonder if this is related?
[15:49:17] <andypugh> I am a bit vageu on the subject, I think there is APIC and LAPIC
[15:49:49] <pfred1> you think it may be a bios issue?
[15:50:03] <Tom_itx> andypugh bike trip?
[15:50:15] <pfred1> don't call andy's girlfriend a bicycle
[15:50:24] <Tom_itx> stop trolling
[15:50:48] <andypugh> Sort-of. Heading north to visit my parents, but might do a bit of thrashing round the dales while everyone is watching queen-related stuff on TV.
[15:50:50] <pfred1> foul hooked cooks up just as good
[15:51:24] <pfred1> yeah how old is the queen now?
[15:51:39] <pfred1> is she like immortal?
[15:51:55] <andypugh> She is about 85. But her mum lived to 103
[15:52:03] <pfred1> god bless her
[15:52:27] <andypugh> rott: It might be worth looking for LAPIC in the BIOS.
[15:52:51] <rott> andypugh: ok, LAPIC off or on, whats better ?
[15:52:55] <Tom_itx> andypugh is this an inherrent problem with the 5i25?
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[15:52:55] <andypugh> ON
[15:52:57] <pfred1> whatever works
[15:53:03] <rott> andypugh: ok
[15:53:08] <andypugh> Tom_itx: No, the 5i25 is perfectly happy
[15:53:27] <Tom_itx> i figured you guys sorted that out by now
[15:53:32] <andypugh> See you later guys.
[15:53:32] <Tom_itx> the sserial stuff working too?
[15:53:34] <pfred1> juggling boards might help too
[15:53:41] <Tom_itx> later andypugh
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[15:54:10] <pfred1> what is it cat /proc/interrupts ?
[15:54:19] <pcw_home> Dont think its (add-on) hardware related as simm fails as well
[15:54:24] <pcw_home> sim
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[15:54:45] <pfred1> hey look who it is
[15:54:55] <jymmm> This is kinda nice http://www.dealextreme.com/p/8-channel-5v-solid-state-relay-module-board-red-blue-121337
[15:55:02] <pfred1> rott bug mozmck they know about this stuff
[15:55:12] <mozmck> what stuff?
[15:55:18] <pfred1> 5i25
[15:55:35] <mozmck> Oh, that's not me. I don't even have one yet.
[15:55:48] <pfred1> I thought andy just got done saying you had some issues with one
[15:56:05] <Tom_itx> good one jymmm
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[15:56:08] <mozmck> nope, must have been someone else.
[15:56:25] <jymmm> Tom_itx: http://arduino.cc/forum/index.php?topic=79745.0
[15:56:27] <mozmck> I've done some work on the rtai kernel (not enough yet).
[15:56:30] <pfred1> maybe was just LAPIC related then?
[15:56:53] * Tom_itx shudders to think he would click on that
[15:57:08] <jymmm> Tom_itx: wiring diagram
[15:57:11] <pfred1> I can't stand arduino dweebez
[15:57:14] <Tom_itx> i now
[15:57:17] <Tom_itx> know*
[15:57:21] <mozmck> could be. I haven't had the LAPIC problem myself, but I did have problems getting the realtime kernel to run on my 6-core AMD
[15:57:37] <pfred1> mozmck that is what andy was talking about then
[15:57:56] <pfred1> did you ever resolve it?
[15:58:06] <mozmck> no
[15:58:09] <pfred1> bummer
[15:58:21] <mozmck> I really need to get back on the kernel stuff.
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[15:58:36] <jymmm> http://arduino-direct.com/sunshop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=156
[15:58:38] <pfred1> yeah isn't rtai getting a bit long in the tooth anymore?
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[15:58:47] <mozmck> I'm not sure PREEMPT-RT is going to be good enough in the near future at all.
[15:59:23] <pfred1> what is going on with mainstream RT in the kernel?
[15:59:32] <pfred1> there seems to be more and more of it there to me
[15:59:36] <rott> thanks all for help, i am done for today, cu
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[15:59:59] <mozmck> No, not rtai, just the last kernel we built. The rtai (and adeos) kernel patches have not been updated to 3.2 yet.
[16:00:08] <pfred1> I've even heard Linus talking about it
[16:00:27] <pcw_home> mozmck didn't you have trouble with a six core Phenom?
[16:01:22] <mozmck> Yes, but I'm not convinced it is fast enough for a lot of stuff linuxcnc can do. Might be alright with a 1ms servo thread.
[16:01:26] <pfred1> the double edged blade in Linux is the fact that it is such a moving target
[16:01:27] <mozmck> pcw_home: yes.
[16:02:19] <pcw_home> rott is having trouble with a 4 core phenom I was wondering if it possibly related
[16:03:06] <mozmck> pcw_home: that could be. I did not need to run in on my 6 core and so I quit messing with it.
[16:03:13] <pcw_home> rtai starts but seems to not be running
[16:03:48] <pfred1> that is a crazy problem
[16:03:52] <mozmck> same thing I had.
[16:04:10] <pcw_home> latency test shows 0
[16:04:14] <mozmck> yep
[16:04:33] <mozmck> I think jepler had the same problem, and I don't think he figured it out either.
[16:04:43] <pfred1> it is some thing that'll have to be addressed someday then
[16:05:07] <mozmck> but I'm not here all the time so I may be wrong about that.
[16:05:25] -!- ktchk [ktchk!~eddie6929@n219073070221.netvigator.com] has parted #linuxcnc
[16:05:30] <pfred1> well you're here now man it is nice today
[16:05:33] <mozmck> Yes. I'm hoping a newer rtai and kernel patch will fix it
[16:05:58] <pfred1> is RTAI still actively developed?
[16:06:19] <pcw_home> Yeah I thnk most people avoid these issues by using older PCs or Atoms
[16:06:41] <pcw_home> I think so but they have limited manpower
[16:07:02] <mozmck> Yes, but I don't think there are a lot of developers, so it seems a little slow. I'm trying to learn enough to work on porting to the 12.04 kernel if I get some time!
[16:07:19] <pfred1> well there has to be some way us dog faces in the trenches can get an inkling about what is going on
[16:08:04] <pfred1> it sucks to have to tell people sorry it just doesn't work
[16:08:48] <pcw_home> thanks for all your work on this mozmck I know it must be fairly painful
[16:08:56] <mozmck> I'm spread pretty thin myself so I haven't had time to work on it much. a couple of other folks have worked on it some, but I don't know how far they have gotten.
[16:09:36] <mozmck> pcw_home: I enjoy it, but right now cradek has done more than me I think!
[16:09:39] <pfred1> I'm not spread thin but my focus is elsewhere ATM
[16:10:05] <mozmck> I'm trying to eat more so I won't get so thin :)
[16:10:14] <pfred1> heh you can have some of my weight
[16:10:23] <pfred1> I've been puting it on lately
[16:11:03] <pfred1> too much sitting fooling with PCs
[16:11:23] <pcw_home> well go run around the block
[16:11:41] <pfred1> my block is 5 miles to run around
[16:11:53] <pfred1> I clocked it with a digital odometer
[16:11:53] <pcw_home> so much the better
[16:11:55] <jymmm> pfred1: get goin!
[16:12:10] <jymmm> pfred1: RUN FOREST RUN!
[16:12:21] <pfred1> yeah i could run through the forest
[16:12:32] <pfred1> there are thousands of acres of it behind my house
[16:12:42] <mozmck> sounds nice!
[16:12:43] <jymmm> pfred1: with your box of chocolates
[16:12:55] <mozmck> I'm out in the country, but not that far.
[16:13:15] <pfred1> ah i go one way and i can hit civilization
[16:13:20] <Tom_itx> when does a grove of trees become a forest?
[16:13:20] <pfred1> the other way not so much
[16:13:39] <pfred1> when you can shoot rifles in that direction and don't worry about hitting anything
[16:13:40] <jymmm> when you can't see the other side?
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[16:14:26] <pfred1> I'm actually backed up to a hunting club
[16:14:39] <pfred1> so I kind of worry when they're over there shooting
[16:15:01] <Tom_itx> waitin for a 50 cal to come buzzin thru?
[16:15:17] <pfred1> they sell 50 cal ammo at the general store around the corner from me
[16:15:29] <pfred1> they got it right at the counter
[16:15:41] <jymmm> on a keychain?
[16:15:47] <pfred1> no in boxes
[16:16:00] <pfred1> like live
[16:16:07] <jymmm> how much?
[16:16:12] <jymmm> qty?
[16:16:19] <pfred1> donno I don't have that gun so I never asked
[16:16:29] <Tom_itx> not many do i would suppose
[16:16:37] <pfred1> well
[16:16:48] <pfred1> we're a pretty big gun culture here
[16:17:00] <pfred1> like everyone shoots
[16:17:01] <Tom_itx> hatfields N mccoys?
[16:17:16] <jymmm> pfred1: where's here?
[16:17:22] <pfred1> I'm surprised I don't hear any gunfire right now
[16:17:31] <pfred1> I live in lower sussex county DE
[16:17:50] <pfred1> the NRA gives us a B+
[16:18:06] <jymmm> heh, so CCW are easy to get as well?
[16:18:09] <pfred1> we don't even have gun licenses here
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[16:18:21] <pfred1> no permit to carry
[16:18:32] <pfred1> you can literally walk around heeled
[16:18:42] <jymmm> pfred1: CCW easy to get?
[16:19:01] <pfred1> well you need some folks to vouch for you and a public notice
[16:19:19] <pfred1> but unconcealed no permit at all
[16:19:43] <pfred1> but throwing stars are illegal here go figure
[16:19:45] <jymmm> public notice? doesn't that sorta kind defeat the purpose of a concealed?
[16:19:59] <pfred1> a public notice is a classified ad
[16:20:19] <pfred1> you know next to lost dogs?
[16:20:44] <jymmm> "I want a CCW as I'll be carrying $20,000 or more on currency and precious jems/metal"
[16:20:58] <pfred1> nah just gives your name and that you're applying
[16:21:06] <pfred1> I'll find one
[16:22:11] <pfred1> hmm might just be in the print paper they're not online
[16:22:23] <pfred1> I se the mall the time in print publications
[16:22:39] <pfred1> I think that is the legal stipulation it has to be printed
[16:22:43] <jymmm> I know some use these... http://www.dealextreme.com/p/audio-speaker-cable-amplifier-plug-twist-4-pin-connector-plug-adapter-6-pack-118006
[16:22:52] <jymmm> pfred1: I understand
[16:23:07] <pfred1> yeah its BS so everyone doesn't CCW
[16:23:45] <jymmm> I can imagine the bad guys watching for that in the papers
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[16:24:15] <jdhNC> with the address... wait for them to leave, then steal their guns!
[16:24:16] <pfred1> we have been having more home invasions here lately there is some legislation going through now in regards to it
[16:24:25] <pfred1> we're not a castle state AFAIK
[16:24:38] <jymmm> jdhNC: and they dont have their permit yet, so even better
[16:24:42] <pfred1> jdhNC every house has guns here
[16:25:29] <pfred1> but like I said we're not a castle state yet but we may be going in that direction
[16:25:44] <pfred1> which basically means you can shoot whoever you want
[16:26:38] <pfred1> the big news last year was a guy cutting down a burgler with a sword
[16:26:51] <pfred1> he got away with it too
[16:30:29] <jymmm> heh http://www.dealextreme.com/p/l298n-stepper-motor-driver-controller-board-for-arduino-120542
[16:32:33] <Tom_itx> the connectors are crooked
[16:32:48] <jymmm> pfred1: Did you feel like making your own? http://www.dealextreme.com/p/diy-electronic-test-probe-tip-green-20-piece-pack-134090
[16:33:23] <pfred1> jymmm those look like really cheap chinese clips
[16:33:34] <Tom_itx> i got some of those with my LA
[16:33:35] <jymmm> pfred1: and/or DUH
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[16:33:52] <Tom_itx> better quality though
[16:34:00] <pfred1> well I have cheap chinese clips and I have EZ-hooks too and there is a bit of a difference
[16:34:26] <jymmm> pfred1: you had just mentioned $13 for one is all
[16:34:30] <pfred1> miamas are nice clips
[16:34:37] <pfred1> nah a pair
[16:34:58] <pfred1> they came in the box of junk I just got
[16:35:08] <pfred1> let me count them up
[16:37:12] <pfred1> almost 3 pair the dork lost one red clip
[16:39:19] <pfred1> 2 pair of BNC mounted clips though and a scope probe
[16:40:43] <jymmm> does anyone happen to know how to sorta calculate temperature change differentials when it comes to thermal conductivity and the like? I need to maintain a certain temp, then drop the temp to almost half, then "flash" it hot again for a moment.
[16:41:25] <pfred1> from what I've read about it thermal calculations are a lot like resistance
[16:41:48] <pfred1> I've only read about it in the context of shedding heat from electronics though
[16:42:50] <jymmm> I know there is a delay during the temp changes, but I dont know how to calculate that so I can build in a delay
[16:43:05] <pfred1> I'm no expert but it sounds to me like you're going to have to go with some kind of active cooling probably
[16:43:33] <jymmm> Heh, oh yeah... looking at either a heat exchanger and/or a chiller.
[16:43:36] <Tom_itx> jymmm, toaster oven?
[16:43:47] <pfred1> peltier heat pump might work
[16:44:27] <jymmm> pfred1: It might, but I think the temp ranges I need would make that expensive
[16:44:36] <pfred1> yeah well ...
[16:44:55] <pfred1> such is the cost of doing business I guess
[16:45:18] <pfred1> I know a guy who made a remotely controlled chilled bong once
[16:45:44] <pfred1> that kid shoulda worked for NASA
[16:46:16] <jymmm> I need to go from 180F, and then drop it to 80F in less then 4 seconds, then "flash" it up to 200F for 3 seconds.
[16:46:34] <pfred1> flash how fast?
[16:46:36] <jymmm> maybe 212F
[16:46:50] <jymmm> pfred1: less than 3 seconds
[16:47:42] <jymmm> I think I'm looking at steam to even be able to do that.
[16:47:45] <pfred1> 40 degrees a second how much mass?
[16:48:06] <pfred1> so water?
[16:48:45] <jymmm> maybe 8 cubic inches
[16:49:37] <pfred1> how many grams of water are in a cuin of water?
[16:50:18] <pfred1> bah my browser is acting screwy again
[16:50:22] <pfred1> this is ticking me off!
[16:52:25] <pfred1> look at this junk http://i.imgur.com/k91Yv.png
[16:52:38] <pfred1> some lib on my system is messing it up
[16:54:36] <jymmm> I might use food grade glycol
[16:54:38] <pfred1> OK 16.387064 grams of water in a cuin
[16:55:02] <jymmm> how did youfigure that?
[16:55:43] <pfred1> so you're going to need 5244 caliries of heat a second
[16:56:03] <pfred1> I opened that page in chromium
[16:56:12] <pfred1> it gave me the text that is supposed to be there
[16:57:25] <jymmm> ah
[16:57:27] <pfred1> which is 21940 joules of energy a second
[16:57:45] <pfred1> sounds like a lot doesn't it?
[16:58:02] <jdhNC> except for the joule part
[16:58:42] <jymmm> Well, it's the transition energy that will be the killer I suspect
[16:58:44] <pfred1> yeah I'm trying to convert that to watts now
[16:59:52] <pfred1> hmm it is a direct conversion at 1 second
[17:00:02] <pfred1> that can't be right
[17:00:50] <pfred1> jymmm it is starting to sound like you're going to need sharks with frickin laser beams on their heads
[17:01:15] <jymmm> Wel, I got the laser, just need to find the sharks =)
[17:01:17] <Helios> deuterium cannons, much better
[17:01:43] <Helios> Shark collects heavy water as it swims
[17:01:58] <pfred1> read a book called footfall
[17:02:18] <pfred1> it used von neuman machines instead of sharks
[17:02:27] <jymmm> heh
[17:02:31] <pfred1> the end result was pretty ugly though
[17:03:08] <Helios> Waving motion generates electricity, the heavy water is electrolysed and turned into deuterium gas then it is ionized with a big charge and build up a big fusion ball then magnetically propell that ball towards thy foe whom being naughty in my sights shall snuff it
[17:03:18] <Helios> US Navy LOVE their fusion reactors
[17:03:31] <pfred1> they love lasers too
[17:03:33] <Helios> Not for net gain electricity, but for destructive purposes
[17:03:42] <Helios> Laser can shoot down ICBM this is true
[17:04:01] <pfred1> well I heard none of those systems are going to be operational until 2015
[17:04:16] <jymmm> Mine can only do ICityBM's =)
[17:04:16] <Helios> They're operational right now
[17:04:17] <pfred1> still from what I've seen some crazy stuff is in the pipe
[17:04:19] <Helios> But secret
[17:04:51] <Helios> Zap pow shit
[17:04:52] <pfred1> something tells me the boys at the pentagon are puffing some serious chronic
[17:05:16] <Helios> No the press secretary probably is tho
[17:05:22] <pfred1> they seen Terminator 4 and want to make it real
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[17:42:42] <elmo40> Helios: fusion? don't you mean fission?
[17:43:28] <elmo40> the Sun is a fusion reactor. ;)
[17:44:00] <Helios> yeah a 3m by 3m star
[17:44:07] <Helios> contained by lots of donut shaped magnets
[17:44:21] <Helios> coolant pipes flowing all around the sphere at megagallons per second
[17:44:35] <Helios> Peltier cell active heat reduction
[17:44:50] <Helios> liquid helium injection created from the waste of the reaction
[17:45:50] <jymmm> Helios: Bullshit, it's just a 40W incandescent lightbulb with a yellow scarf draped over it=)
[17:46:35] <Helios> How many watts out are there in a Deuterium reaction?
[17:47:01] <Helios> Regulating the flow, exhaust cycle is hard work if the only thing you can touch it with is a magnetic field
[17:47:38] <jymmm> Helios: Err, that would be 40YW lightbulb, not 40W =)
[17:47:49] <Helios> Yottawatts?
[17:47:57] <jymmm> =)
[17:48:09] <Helios> All the world's energy problems solved
[17:48:26] <elmo40> Helios: what does the Navy have anything to do with fusion ?
[17:48:46] <jymmm> elmo40: their Nuclear programs?
[17:50:04] <Helios> Cmon a fusion powered aircraft carrier airbourne/submarine isn't useful to the Navy?
[17:50:23] <jymmm> only when the rubberband breaks
[17:51:54] <Helios> The Navy have fusion devices for killing millions of people not for making power
[17:52:06] <Helios> And even if they did it would be classified and nobody would know anything about it
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[17:52:35] <elmo40> classified info is such a crock of shit
[17:52:46] <elmo40> wikileaks FTW!
[17:52:55] <elmo40> there should be NOTHING classified
[17:52:55] <jymmm> elmo40: that's classified.
[17:52:58] <elmo40> lol
[17:53:08] <Tom_itx> i have clearance
[17:53:13] <Tom_itx> go ahead and tell me
[17:53:27] <jymmm> Tom_itx: need to know basis biotch!
[17:53:28] <pcw_home> usually classified to keep its costs or stupidity secret
[17:53:41] <Tom_itx> absolutely
[17:54:20] <Helios> The secrets of gaining electrical power from sustained fusion electrical power that it would be an enormous advantage over any enemy and to get the edge in the balance of power it must remain secret so the Ruskies, Mexicans, North Koreans whoever can't get their hands on the tech to use it against us
[17:54:34] <jymmm> Heh, When I had to get on the other side of the plant, I used to take a shortcut through the "classified" area. dumb bastards never changed the codes =)
[17:55:56] <jymmm> "Secret" stuff, now that's a TOTALLY different story =)
[17:56:08] <Tom_itx> it's a UFO
[17:56:15] <jymmm> I wish
[17:56:28] <jymmm> at least that would have been cool.
[17:57:12] <Helios> UFO=top secret steal swept wing back ultra lightweight mach 5 silently capable aircraft that is not in any book of janes aircraft just as the Bin Laden Helicopter and the Iran Drone are evidence of classified aircraft
[17:57:24] <jymmm> One time a guy was "escorted" out of the building with a paper bag over his head by two MIB. It was a trip.
[17:57:56] <jymmm> It seemed like he asked for the bag too.
[17:58:15] <Tom_itx> better that than a body bag
[17:58:46] <jymmm> I don't think the body bag was too far behind, he was never heard of/from after that.
[17:59:09] <Tom_itx> maybe they used him for a 'secret' experiment
[17:59:25] <jymmm> Nah, wasn't a research facility.
[17:59:49] <pcw_home> we sell stuff to area 51
[17:59:57] <Tom_itx> who pays you?
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[18:00:05] <Tom_itx> since it doesn't exhist
[18:00:08] <jymmm> pcw_home: LV address?
[18:00:13] <pcw_home> usually some broker
[18:01:12] <jymmm> Area 51 has it's own airline, kinda funny.
[18:01:17] <pcw_home> lots of scams in government contracts (sold through women/minority owned front is common)
[18:02:12] <Tom_itx> they must have learned that trick from the mob
[18:02:56] <pfred1> I still want to see what a $17,000 oil drip pan looks like
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[18:05:32] <jymmm> pfred1: Just like a $7 one, only with a sticker on it with a NSN on it =)
[18:06:09] <pfred1> jymmm what killed me was another guy in the article crying that his $2,500 drip pans were just as good
[18:06:22] <pfred1> and the government should buy those!
[18:06:42] <jymmm> or the hammer or toilet seat
[18:07:10] <pfred1> I seem to have scored big with this hand saw I bought today
[18:07:34] <jymmm> hand saw? what is this thing you speak of?
[18:07:56] <pfred1> it is a thing like this: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=geo+h+bishop+saw&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1087&bih=767&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=QVLKT_TyNuaP6gHL06km
[18:08:29] <pfred1> mine is about a 19" crosscut
[18:12:39] <pfred1> 26" just measured it
[18:17:27] <jymmm> didn't they use those like 2,000,000 years ago?
[18:19:49] <Helios> janet
[18:20:33] <Helios> Counter Counter measures were invented at groom lake
[18:20:55] <pfred1> I just cut a 2x4 with it they sure don't make saws like it anymore
[18:21:15] <pfred1> it is the nicest handsaw I've ever used and I've used a few
[18:21:19] <pfred1> quite a few
[18:21:58] <pfred1> big score!
[18:22:54] <pfred1> I'm always on the lookout for good handsaws
[18:23:03] <pfred1> rarer than hens teeth
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[18:47:54] <mrsun> 0.02mm runoff at the flange of the spindle or whatever i should call it (before the bearing after the threads :P)
[18:48:12] <mrsun> like 0.05mm in the morse taper in the spindle ...
[18:48:18] <mrsun> hmm
[18:49:16] <pfred1> I was so bummed out I bought a tapered reamer the other day on the off chance it was Morse #2 it is a plain pin taper though
[18:49:45] <pfred1> until i measured it it looked so close
[18:50:07] <pfred1> I used 2 washers with different inside diameter holes
[18:50:28] <pfred1> then it didn't look close at all :)
[18:50:50] <pfred1> one they were 1" apart the other it was 0.640
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[18:56:11] <mrsun> theres scores inside the taper also, dont know what they have been doing with it ...
[18:57:52] <pfred1> time to start honing
[18:58:36] <pfred1> got any valve grinding compound?
[18:59:05] <pfred1> get a #2 smear it up then work it in there like you're seating a valve
[18:59:28] <pfred1> 1/4 turn then work it rinse and repeat
[18:59:57] <pfred1> well I'd knock any big burr down with a tool room stone first
[19:00:31] <mrsun> what do you mean with 1/4 turn then work it ?
[19:00:40] <mrsun> got valve grinding compound yes
[19:00:43] <pfred1> I guess you've never seated valves
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[19:00:50] <mrsun> pfred1, nop
[19:01:03] <pfred1> that is how you do it when you lap them
[19:01:22] <pfred1> drop it in work it take it out turn it a 1/4 turn work it again keep going til you have a matte face
[19:01:59] <archivist> if it has picked up, I get the peaks off before grinding, rest may not need touching
[19:02:03] <pfred1> good enough for valves good enough for a taper
[19:02:44] <pfred1> yeah I wouldn't go until it was matte with no scratches
[19:02:50] <pfred1> because it ain't a valve
[19:02:56] <archivist> there are morse taper reamers available for cleaning them up too
[19:03:36] <pfred1> an import one of those should only set you back about $50 or so
[19:04:23] <mrsun> in sweden, make that $150 :P
[19:04:52] <mrsun> nah ... 566 sek ... like $70
[19:05:05] <pfred1> I have some sweedish tools they're nice
[19:05:16] <pfred1> have had a lot of sweedish cars too
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[19:05:35] <mrsun> these were "Wodex" brand, dont know what they are =)
[19:05:50] <pfred1> woden wasn't he some pagan god?
[19:06:05] <mrsun> ehm ? :P
[19:06:15] <archivist> woden was a vice maker in uk
[19:06:43] <pfred1> yeah the british don't have the word vise
[19:07:12] <pfred1> in the US calling a clamping device a "vice" is ignorant
[19:07:19] <pfred1> but apparently not in the UK
[19:08:02] <pfred1> in the US we have vice squads
[19:08:13] <pfred1> which keep plenty busy
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[19:10:42] <mrsun> pfred1, cant find anything on youtube with valve grinding where they dont just slap the lapping compound on and spin it like hell :P
[19:11:22] <pfred1> woulldn't lead to a concentric mate
[19:11:57] <pfred1> google rule of 3 it sort of relates to that
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[19:13:52] <pfred1> but that is for flat lapping
[19:14:33] <pfred1> same general principal though
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[19:15:55] <pfred1> I've had 3 angle grind jobs done professionally and there is nothing crisper than a good hand lap let me tell you
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[19:33:57] <JT-Shop> Is there anybody around the Sheffield england area willing to give some Paid help
[19:33:58] <JT-Shop> I need to get this finished and running as we've lost some jobs now due to it being out of action just tuning and checking of calibration, and generally working the kinks out
[19:34:03] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=30&id=16604&limit=6&start=60#20617
[19:34:38] <JT-Shop> archivist: know anyone linuxcnc savvy in Sheffield?
[19:36:31] <archivist> no, and I'm about 60 miles south :(
[19:36:57] <JT-Shop> darn
[19:37:21] <JT-Shop> thought I'd ask anyway
[19:37:36] <JT-Shop> maybe he would pick you up and deliver you back :=)
[19:37:56] <mozmck> 60 miles is nothing! That's about how far it is to town for me :)
[19:38:04] <archivist> I do have a car :)
[19:39:13] <archivist> not that I have ever bothered with external subroutines in my code yet :)
[19:40:49] <JT-Shop> he would pay you to learn
[19:42:04] <mrsun> hmm, how much force does it take to twist a lathe bed "right"? ... small 4 1/2 inch lathe and i would guess its not sittring right on the bench :P
[19:42:20] <mrsun> hell i should get another bench for it also ... its to flimsy the one i have :/
[19:44:46] <archivist> mrsun, not much force, it it designed for 3 or 4 point mount
[19:45:02] <archivist> is it
[19:45:03] <mrsun> its four holes
[19:45:27] <mrsun> gonna start doing test turnings tomorrow i think
[19:46:02] <mrsun> but its hard to know if its wear of the bed that makes turnings not straight or if lathe is out of alignment :P
[19:46:11] <archivist> mount on a rigid metal stand and use a precision level to make the bed level shimming the feet
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[19:47:33] <mrsun> archivist, not everyone has a precision level :/
[19:47:36] <mrsun> not often its needed
[19:47:45] <mrsun> and they are quite expensive :P
[19:48:22] <archivist> but worth the money for springing lathes straight :)
[19:48:44] <mrsun> archivist, yeah but its one lathe .... and how often would one move it ... not that often :P
[19:49:10] <archivist> if on a wooden bench then that can be the main cause
[19:49:23] <mrsun> archivist, nah steel
[19:49:35] <mrsun> but its kinda flimsy ... i would want a real steel plate to set it on
[19:49:45] <mrsun> like 10mm or something =)
[19:50:08] <archivist> I got told off when I asked the same question about my little lathe 40 odd years ago
[19:50:41] <mrsun> archivist, huh ? :)
[19:51:10] <archivist> flat can twist too, box section is better for torsional twist
[19:51:47] <archivist> I had my 3 1/2 lathe on a wooden bench
[19:51:49] <mrsun> archivist, ya true but with legs welded on and bolted to the concrete floor :P
[19:52:31] <archivist> then you can shim the feet/adjustable feet to set it up
[19:53:30] <JT-Shop> I use my precision level every time I bump my Samson...
[19:53:51] <archivist> JT-Shop, playing steam engines tomorrow, he could have a day out
[19:54:14] <archivist> its half way in between ish
[19:54:21] <mrsun> how are the china "precision" levels .. atleast they are cheap :P
[19:54:27] <JT-Shop> cool
[19:54:42] <mrsun> says 0.02mm/m but how would i know if thats true ...
[19:55:35] <archivist> get a surface plate
[19:55:48] <mrsun> got a surface plate
[19:56:07] <archivist> this hobby is a slippery slope to collecting useful toys
[19:56:07] <mrsun> but how would that help me with knowing if a precision level is precision or not? :P
[19:56:22] <jdhNC> chinese surface plate?
[19:56:31] <Loetmichel> archivist: ... more or less useful...
[19:56:40] <mrsun> jdhNC, dont know what it is realy, got paper with it from testing etc
[19:56:43] <archivist> can it correctly measure a feeler under the level at one end
[19:57:30] <archivist> Loetmichel, I deny anything is less useful !
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[19:58:29] <Loetmichel> archivist; thats first stage
[19:59:02] <Loetmichel> look at AAA
[19:59:09] <mrsun> hmm, all my tapers are to short to "knock" them out of the quill ... how the heck do i fix that? ... make a small bolt to go into the threaded end of them or what ?
[19:59:21] <Loetmichel> first: denial ;)
[19:59:37] <archivist> mrsun, the actual error does not matter, does it read the same both ends of the lathe bed, no jack the bed till level
[19:59:45] <Helios> There's smack, crack, whores and guns in Sheffield, only in Sheffield!
[20:01:29] <Helios> The industry there collapsed a long time ago
[20:01:36] <Helios> Same as glasgow and middlesboro
[20:01:39] <archivist> mrsun, also put the level on the cross slide and traverse the whole length, should be constant once levelled
[20:01:46] <Helios> leeds is bad
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[20:03:29] <Loetmichel> Helios: ahem... i live in Offenbach, germany... nearly 60% foreigen citizens...
[20:03:47] <Loetmichel> what are you complaining about? ;-)
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[20:27:58] <UnderSampled> Hello
[20:28:24] <UnderSampled> How do I load a run a gcode file from a gcode file?
[20:31:38] <JT-Shop> do you mean a subroutine file?
[20:31:42] <UnderSampled> I guess?
[20:32:08] <JT-Shop> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode/o-code.html#_calling_files
[20:34:07] <UnderSampled> so they are global for all gcode programs?
[20:34:29] <r00t4rd3d> I put some wire chain on my z axis today :)
[20:34:30] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/iBbjf.jpg
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[20:42:00] <r00t4rd3d> you can barely see it but I think thats good.
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[20:59:40] <Loetmichel> r00t4rd3d: i dont want to be insulting, but i think the wire chain has doulbed the $$$ of the machine ;-)
[21:00:10] <alex4nder> yoh
[21:00:27] <alex4nder> haha
[21:01:10] <DJ9DJ> gn8
[21:01:20] <Loetmichel> my first wasnt better, though... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2859
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[21:03:13] <Loetmichel> (yes, the whole machine was made from PMMA ;-)
[21:05:30] <r00t4rd3d> first thing i am going to carve is FUCK YOU Loetmichel !
[21:06:11] <Loetmichel> behold, there is a shortfused man!
[21:06:20] <r00t4rd3d> nah
[21:06:53] <r00t4rd3d> if i was mad i would come to your house and sledge hammer your mailbox
[21:07:19] <Loetmichel> r00t4rd3d: try... if you can cope with the echo ;-)
[21:09:49] <Loetmichel> btw: i never said the machine wouldnt work. just that the chain was a bit expensive compared to the rest of the machine
[21:10:32] <Loetmichel> regarding your x carriage and linear "ways" i had already said my tune, i think.
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[21:13:10] <pfred1> what are we barely seeing?
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[21:13:57] <Loetmichel> pfred1: left of the "z mount" is a little black cable chain
[21:14:13] <Loetmichel> (right of it too, i see now)
[21:14:36] <Loetmichel> obn top of the gantry
[21:14:40] <pfred1> Loetmichel I was out gardening a little so I had to scroll back to get the link
[21:15:27] <Loetmichel> [22:35] <r00t4rd3d> I put some wire chain on my z axis today :)
[21:15:27] <Loetmichel> [22:35] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/iBbjf.jpg
[21:15:51] <Loetmichel> i tend to make the chains myself, cheapskate that i am...
[21:16:12] <pfred1> oh flexible cable trough?
[21:16:13] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=412
[21:16:23] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4420
[21:16:35] <pfred1> Loetmichel yeah I've seen the stuff you've made it is nice
[21:17:26] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4384
[21:18:00] <Loetmichel> (but the soldering of the parts is a work for a "chain gang" ;-)
[21:18:40] <pfred1> I have to get back to working on my machine but I want to wrap up another project I am working on first
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[21:20:20] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d what is your table made out of?
[21:21:34] <JT-Shop> bottling done, now for some inspirational relaxing
[21:21:46] <pfred1> I picked peas
[21:22:04] <pfred1> I have a few pounds now
[21:22:21] <JT-Shop> UnderSampled: yes
[21:22:44] <JT-Shop> I'll be at Georges if anyone is looking for me
[21:22:53] <ScribbleJ> Gaaahrh
[21:22:56] <pfred1> gin mill?
[21:23:28] <ScribbleJ> At the rate I am going, I will never gt anything done on my cnc router. :/
[21:24:02] <Loetmichel> peas?
[21:24:02] <pfred1> ScribbleJ how come?
[21:24:03] <ScribbleJ> It seems odd to me that if I pause the execution of a gcode file, I cannot then jog the motors around and do some things and then resume it.
[21:24:07] <Loetmichel> the little green ones?
[21:24:12] <pfred1> Loetmichel yes snow and english
[21:24:41] <ScribbleJ> Well, I was just cutting some plywood as a test and after an hour or so of going fine, my water pump for the spindle cooling fell apart and started spewing water all over.
[21:24:52] <Loetmichel> dosent they come in little green pods?
[21:25:02] <pfred1> Loetmichel mine do
[21:25:30] <pfred1> ScribbleJ you have a water cooled spindle?
[21:25:59] <pfred1> is there any reason you didn't go with air cooling?
[21:26:07] <ScribbleJ> Sooooo... I noticed right away of course, and paused the gcode, but then I couldn't turn off the spindle and fix things and then resume really. Actually, I suppose I could have, but I wanted to move the spindle away from the part and when I couldn't do that I just killed the power totally.
[21:26:34] <ScribbleJ> pfred1, I bought a 'kit' and it came with a water cooled spindle. That's pretty much the reason.
[21:26:53] <Loetmichel> on of the few memories of my only visit to london is that at the B&B the mother made a breakfast with stirred eggs, bacon, sausage, corn and peas so green the MUST have been made of plastic
[21:26:57] <pfred1> I see do you see why they went with water cooling?
[21:27:06] <Loetmichel> never seen a grenn TIS primary on a plant afterwards ;-)
[21:27:33] <ScribbleJ> I don't know, pfred1. Sorry.
[21:27:43] <pfred1> it just seems a bit extreme to me
[21:28:04] <Loetmichel> ScribbleJ: what pump?
[21:28:10] <pfred1> is it an ultra high speed spindle?
[21:28:13] <Loetmichel> mine sits INSIDE the container...
[21:28:28] <Loetmichel> so no problem if it would break apart
[21:28:33] <ScribbleJ> 400hz, pfred. I dunno if that would be ultra high speed or not, but it's not shabby.
[21:28:52] <Loetmichel> pfred1: mine is shuch a chinese with 800W, and watercooled, tooo
[21:28:53] <pfred1> spindles are usually rated in RPMs not Hz
[21:29:00] <ScribbleJ> Loetmichel, Uhmmmm... I don't actually know what the pump is, it came with my laser and I jus tborrowed it from that while I'm testing this all out.
[21:29:09] <ScribbleJ> pfred1, 24,000RPM = 400hz.
[21:29:12] <Loetmichel> it is at 24krpm quieter than the steppers ;-)
[21:29:22] <ScribbleJ> Yes, it's much quieter than the steppers.
[21:29:47] <pfred1> my router is 30K RPM and it just has a fan it is pretty noisy though
[21:30:09] <Loetmichel> i have used a mini-pump for an indoor water well
[21:30:16] <Tom_itx> ScribbleJ what spindle did you get?
[21:30:18] <JT-Shop> ScribbleJ: you can run from line if you don't have subroutines
[21:30:48] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13048 <- to be seen blurred in the red car cooling goo
[21:30:52] <ScribbleJ> JT-Shop, yes, well, if I'd had any idea what line it was on when I pulled the power.... haa
[21:31:20] <ScribbleJ> Loetmichel, that's interesting. You don't use actual water to cool your water cooled spindle?
[21:31:23] <pfred1> Loetmichel moo!
[21:32:06] <pfred1> I'd imagine actual water would get pretty rank after a while
[21:32:09] <ScribbleJ> http://www.flickr.com/photos/13723140@N04/7258533248/in/set-72157629869035778/ <- Tom_itx
[21:32:16] <Tom_itx> what sort of gauge has cows on it??
[21:32:55] <Tom_itx> what collet size is that?
[21:32:57] <ScribbleJ> ER11
[21:33:07] <Loetmichel> ER11
[21:33:27] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: a coocing thermometer ;-)
[21:33:31] <Loetmichel> cooking
[21:33:37] <Tom_itx> heh
[21:34:04] <Loetmichel> ScribbleJ: i have the smaller 800W version
[21:34:12] <Tom_itx> ebay?
[21:34:19] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569
[21:34:28] <Tom_itx> did it come with the control>
[21:34:29] <Tom_itx> ?
[21:34:35] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12533&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[21:34:49] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: mine yes
[21:34:52] <ScribbleJ> ebay, yes, it came with all the things.
[21:34:53] <pfred1> shame it doesn't go up to 1/2"
[21:35:12] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[21:35:23] <Loetmichel> 7mm is end of the er11 collets
[21:35:33] <pfred1> 3/8s
[21:35:40] <Loetmichel> i HAVE one with 8mm but thats out of spec ;-)
[21:35:41] <Tom_itx> i think i would need a larger collet
[21:36:03] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: the spindles are hispeed, low torque
[21:36:24] <Tom_itx> not so good on steel then
[21:36:33] <Loetmichel> more than ER11 is not really necsessary
[21:36:54] <pfred1> I like my 1/2" router bits a lot better than my 1/4" ones
[21:36:56] <Loetmichel> for steel i would go with low speed hogh torque
[21:37:00] <Loetmichel> high
[21:37:33] <Loetmichel> pfred1: this chinese spindles are also aviable in 2.2kW
[21:37:38] <Loetmichel> with ER20
[21:37:47] <Tom_itx> that might be better
[21:37:50] <Loetmichel> not really more expensive than the small ones
[21:38:04] <pfred1> Tom_itx what part of chinese don't you get?
[21:38:23] <Tom_itx> ER20
[21:38:29] <pfred1> I'm really trying to stay away from that stuff anymore
[21:38:42] <pfred1> it is garbage
[21:39:07] <Tom_itx> i'll order a head from mori seki then
[21:39:08] <ScribbleJ> I've had some very good experiences buying chinese.
[21:39:37] <pfred1> ScribbleJ that suggests to me you just haven't had enough experience buying anything else
[21:39:53] <Loetmichel> pfred1: cant second that
[21:40:40] <Loetmichel> the spindle here has surprised me with a rinout smaller than my gauge can measure and stays cool and is quiet
[21:40:50] <Loetmichel> what can one ask more?
[21:41:35] <Loetmichel> (ok, the grounding was missing in the plug, but that was corrected fast)
[21:42:00] <ScribbleJ> Is that the 4th pin?
[21:42:11] <Loetmichel> should be the casing ;-)
[21:43:06] <pfred1> Loetmichel well I got the Bosch router I'm running on my CNC for $15 lets see the chinese top that!
[21:43:29] <Loetmichel> new?
[21:43:33] <pfred1> no
[21:43:34] <Loetmichel> i doubt that
[21:43:42] <pfred1> it still works though
[21:43:51] <Loetmichel> ok, than you are comparing apples to bananas
[21:43:52] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[21:43:55] <ScribbleJ> You got a good deal on some used equipment.
[21:44:06] <pfred1> always
[21:44:11] <ScribbleJ> Yeah, tht's what I was about to say - doesn't make it a fair comparison to new chinese stuff.
[21:44:23] <pfred1> how isn't it money is green
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[21:44:44] <pfred1> I could have sent it to china or spent it in my own country
[21:44:54] <JT-Shop> apples are better than bananas
[21:45:01] <Tom_itx> where is bosch made?
[21:45:13] <pfred1> Tom_itx this particular router was made in the USA
[21:45:16] <Loetmichel> pfred1: i have got 2 times 18 steppers and 18 servo motors for free yesterday... top that ;-)
[21:45:20] <pfred1> says so right on it
[21:45:35] <JT-Shop> my backhoe can crush your steppers
[21:45:36] <ScribbleJ> Hey, I'll admit to feeling guilty for supporting china with my money and chasing prices over quality.
[21:45:44] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13248
[21:45:47] <ScribbleJ> But like I said - it's worked out quite well for me.
[21:45:56] <pfred1> JT-Shop I have seen backhoes do some nasty stuff
[21:46:14] <Loetmichel> ScribbleJ: why?
[21:46:47] <pfred1> JT-Shop I was digging fire columns once with one guy and he put the bucket right through the wall
[21:46:55] <pfred1> he said whoops
[21:47:02] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop so could your cannon
[21:47:03] <Loetmichel> if the chinese are cheaper AND better (happens NOT really often): buy it.
[21:47:33] <Loetmichel> btw: i will not buy american hardware for my company again if i can avoid it
[21:47:41] <JT-Shop> yep
[21:48:03] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel, quality or price?
[21:48:04] <Loetmichel> hat MUCH more hazzle with some american industrial computer boards than EVER with the asian stuff
[21:48:06] <pfred1> Loetmichel like nuts and bolts?
[21:48:10] <JT-Shop> my german drive unit is a piece of junk
[21:48:30] <Loetmichel> pfred1: computer hardware
[21:48:42] <Tom_itx> it's probably like anything else. there are good and bad mfg in any country
[21:48:46] <pfred1> Loetmichel I used to make PCBs here in the USA but not for a long time
[21:49:05] <pfred1> our boards were really nice too
[21:49:08] <pfred1> mil spec
[21:49:26] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: SBC for 2500$ and backplane for 800$
[21:49:42] <pfred1> if yo uever get locked up in India good chance one of my boards will be controlling the lock
[21:49:51] <Loetmichel> and not ONE has benn out more than a year without problems (of 30++ units)
[21:49:52] <pfred1> :)
[21:50:00] <Loetmichel> been
[21:51:16] <Loetmichel> multiple times ram sockets corroding, BGA-chips popcorning from the backplane, unreliable connectors everywhre...
[21:51:28] <alex4nder> suck
[21:51:57] <pfred1> sounds like temp control issues
[21:52:15] <pfred1> like you let the temps swing too much
[21:52:16] <Loetmichel> mil computers
[21:52:22] <Loetmichel> in a wheeled tank
[21:52:44] <Loetmichel> the boards are specified from 0°c to 55°C
[21:52:46] <pfred1> yeah poor tank design
[21:53:12] <pfred1> I'm sure they work at those temps just not back and forth back and forth
[21:53:15] <Loetmichel> and the system has heating. and cooling. AND is controlled via a little µC
[21:53:34] <Loetmichel> ther WERE no temperatures below or above the specs
[21:53:45] <Loetmichel> still the boards are failing one after the other
[21:53:50] <pfred1> doesn't have to be just has to swing too often
[21:54:17] <pfred1> they probably could have used better board substrate though
[21:54:41] <pfred1> sounds like that stuff is taking on then shedding mousture a lot
[21:54:48] <pfred1> moisture even
[21:54:59] <Loetmichel> pfred1: when i buy a board for the price of a small car i expect it to stand for its specs
[21:55:11] <pfred1> like I said I'm sure it does
[21:55:21] <pfred1> they didn't say it'd cycle
[21:55:43] <Loetmichel> it is coated
[21:55:56] <Loetmichel> there is no chance of getting moisture in
[21:56:07] <Loetmichel> (conformal coating and contact grease
[21:56:20] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: sounds like bad design
[21:56:26] <alex4nder> we had BGA problems on a board I worked on once
[21:56:29] <alex4nder> it was our fault
[21:56:32] <pfred1> something is making the board flex
[21:56:48] <alex4nder> pfred1: in-spec board temps can make them flex, depending on your PCB stackup
[21:56:57] <pfred1> and stuff don't corrode for no good reason either
[21:56:57] <alex4nder> we had BGAs popping off the board
[21:56:58] <pcw_home> moisture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRB0BDEwUC0
[21:57:05] <Loetmichel> but you are not getting the problem: similar boards from a korean company run like a charm under the same conditions. and they are NOT specified for mil use.
[21:57:09] <pfred1> alex4nder of course
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[21:57:43] <Loetmichel> [23:57] <pfred1> and stuff don't corrode for no good reason either <- how can a supposedly gold-clad connector corrode in the fiurst place?
[21:58:18] <Loetmichel> btw: the koreean boards are about a quarter of the american price
[21:58:28] <pfred1> gold is soft the coating could be getting damaged due to the wrong size holes
[21:58:31] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: but they're not made in 'murca!
[21:58:48] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: yes, hopefully so
[21:58:50] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[21:58:53] <pfred1> fiberglass will rip gold plating right off
[21:59:22] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: I don't think it should be that way. we have pretty good board shops and assembly in the US still.. that must just be bad engineering.
[21:59:31] <pfred1> you can chalk that up to the board warping back and forth too
[22:00:01] <pfred1> yeah it sounds like the engineering could just be crap mounting holes
[22:00:50] <Loetmichel> btw: which company uses a press-fit ram socket in a mil-spec (enviromental and g-forces) desing? ... right: trenton ....
[22:01:48] <pfred1> well our tanks are the best in the world so apparently we can make stuff work
[22:02:31] <pfred1> the M1A2 is second to none
[22:02:39] <pfred1> we won't even sell them to our allies
[22:02:42] <Loetmichel> pfred1: is that so? doesent you had buyed the leopard 105mm gun for your m1 ?
[22:02:43] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[22:02:48] <pfred1> we sell you jokers the A1
[22:03:07] <Loetmichel> ...and the m1 is guzzling fuel like all jets.
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[22:03:35] <pfred1> complain when it stops drinking gas
[22:03:42] <pcw_home> we have used press fit PC/104 and PC/104plus connectors for 20 years I don't think we've ever seen a failure
[22:03:52] <Tom_itx> meh we don't care about fuel, we'll just go take over another country
[22:03:56] <Loetmichel> pfred1: i am german. we have leopards. no need for american tanks ;-)
[22:04:14] <pfred1> you guys needed them for years to keep the russians out
[22:04:26] <Loetmichel> pcw_home: in a 30g enviroment?
[22:04:45] <pcw_home> absolutely
[22:04:49] <Loetmichel> nice
[22:05:16] <Tom_itx> remember, he said they sold stuff to area 51?
[22:05:20] * Loetmichel had to resolder the pressfit sockets on all machines 'cause the were failing one after another
[22:05:44] <pcw_home> sounds like a hole size or plating problem
[22:05:47] <pfred1> who engineered the boards?
[22:05:52] <pfred1> yes it does
[22:06:06] <pfred1> heck who tested them?
[22:06:06] <Loetmichel> pfred1: trenton of courese
[22:06:16] <Loetmichel> course
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[22:06:26] <pfred1> didn't you test them yourselves?
[22:06:37] <pfred1> or have your own company do it for you?
[22:06:47] <Loetmichel> INITIALLY they run.
[22:06:56] <pfred1> that isn't how things are tested
[22:06:58] <Loetmichel> it takes half a yxear in the tank to fail
[22:07:10] <pcw_home> press fit backplanes have a long history of better than soldered reliability
[22:07:39] <Loetmichel> pcw_home: i belive you, but i only can tell otherwise.
[22:08:06] <Loetmichel> that MAY be because i have seen otherwise.
[22:08:27] <pcw_home> of course our connectors are German :-)
[22:08:33] <Loetmichel> harhar
[22:08:41] <Loetmichel> not swiss?
[22:08:45] <Loetmichel> (lemo)
[22:08:49] <pcw_home> EPT
[22:08:49] <pfred1> germans make OK stuff
[22:08:58] <pfred1> better than the chinese
[22:09:20] <Loetmichel> oh, i see: lemo IS german. i thouhgt they were swiss?
[22:09:20] <pfred1> though you have to be careful german companies are having a lot of their stuff made in china now
[22:09:31] <pcw_home> AMP.TYCO is all pretty much all chinese now
[22:09:38] <jymmm> pfred1: hey now, lets see a german make a tasty roach on a stick?!
[22:09:42] <pfred1> yeah that is a shame
[22:09:44] <Loetmichel> pfred1: right. but with german quality checks ;-)
[22:10:01] <pfred1> I don't care I want Hans and Fritz on the line making it too!
[22:10:13] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[22:10:24] <pfred1> not people i can blindfold with dental floss
[22:10:31] <Loetmichel> you forgot "michel"
[22:10:42] <jymmm> pfred1: that's fucked up
[22:11:11] <Loetmichel> (" der deutsche michel") -> something like "john smith" in america i think
[22:11:26] <pfred1> look man I've had it up to here with poor quality chinese stuff
[22:12:19] <pfred1> I can't even say cheap anymore because not all of it is
[22:12:31] <jymmm> pfred1: Ok, sure. but you KNOW that from the beginning before you have ever seen/heard of it. But "blindfold with floss", really?
[22:12:36] <Loetmichel> pfred1: the difference between german and chinese maufacturers: GERMANS refuse to produce to a low price. chines say "ok, you want to pay only x$, so you get qualityx for x$ instead of xxx§
[22:12:57] <pfred1> Loetmichel I'll pay what it is worth
[22:13:18] <pfred1> chinese stuff it is like a crap shoot 4 out of 5 times the stuff is trash
[22:13:25] <pfred1> so in the end how much am I saving?
[22:13:57] <Loetmichel> pfred1: i meant: chines CAN and DO produce good stuff. IF you are willing to pay a little extra. AND STILL tey are cheaper than any "western" state.
[22:14:01] <pfred1> I might as well pay 2 or 3 times as much and it just be good
[22:14:39] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: right, if there's someone maintaining quality on the factory floor, everything is ok
[22:14:49] <pfred1> yeah and feeding the workers
[22:14:54] <pfred1> that always helps
[22:15:03] <alex4nder> the second there isn't, qualify fade happens
[22:15:05] <alex4nder> invariably
[22:15:35] <pfred1> the thing is you support chinese practices pretty soon the whole world is going to run like it is china
[22:15:55] <pfred1> and I like rice but I like to break it up with a little more than fish heads every now and again
[22:16:31] <alex4nder> pfred1: the chinese paid us for that privilege by giving us lower-initial prices
[22:16:38] <alex4nder> they bought the market fair and square.
[22:16:48] <alex4nder> and we were stupid enough to sell it to them.
[22:17:10] <pfred1> what concerns me is the tech they steal
[22:17:17] <alex4nder> steal?
[22:17:21] <pfred1> yes steal
[22:17:25] <alex4nder> when?
[22:17:27] <Loetmichel> what i meat to say with the trenton example: you can buy cheap in china and get crap. you can buy a little less cheap in china and get good quality. but you can also pay big$$$ for a western company and STILL get crap
[22:17:31] <alex4nder> like industrial espionage?
[22:17:32] <pfred1> you know take without paying for it
[22:17:44] <alex4nder> I know the definition, I'm just not sure what you're talking about.
[22:17:51] <pfred1> I bought a jig saw off harbor freight once looked just like a bosch
[22:17:52] <jymmm> because they dont have/enforce copyright laws?
[22:18:06] <pfred1> they probably walked int oa store bought a bosch took it back to china then made molds out of it
[22:18:22] <pfred1> too bad the drive gear in it was scintered iron
[22:18:23] <alex4nder> why should they honor US patents?
[22:18:29] <alex4nder> I mean, really
[22:18:31] <alex4nder> I wouldn't if I were them.
[22:18:51] <pfred1> maybe we should just donate a little napalm to them?
[22:18:54] <jymmm> Isn't that what US Customs is for? To prevent forgeries from being received at the boarders?
[22:18:58] <alex4nder> yah
[22:19:11] <Loetmichel> pfred1: more likeley tha had the machine producng the bosch machine running a little overtime and sold it without the bosc label
[22:19:16] <alex4nder> pfred1: you're the real enemy if you're buying Chinese knock-offs of Bosch products.
[22:19:23] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: yup
[22:19:35] <pfred1> alex4nder I did then I don't now I have a real bosch jigsaw
[22:19:52] <alex4nder> pfred1: is it German or Chinese?
[22:19:58] <pfred1> which did cost me 3 times as much but works a lot better
[22:20:05] <jymmm> and it's hardly a knock with the poor quality of the resulting cloned product.
[22:20:11] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: not german
[22:20:14] <jymmm> knock off
[22:20:16] <pfred1> I don't know where it was made it is a genuine bosch though says so right on it
[22:20:20] <Loetmichel> bosch produces no longer in germany
[22:20:42] <pfred1> I bought this jigsaw quite a few years ago it is likely german
[22:20:52] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: I know, that's their new business model: German Management, $BROWNPEOPLE workers.
[22:20:58] <Loetmichel> pfred1: german label maybe
[22:21:12] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: right. sadly
[22:21:21] <alex4nder> yup
[22:21:32] <pfred1> I went through the whole cheap chinese tool thing in the 80s
[22:21:59] <alex4nder> the flip side to this, is American companies that deserve to go out of business
[22:22:04] <alex4nder> like Gerstner
[22:22:14] <alex4nder> who shipped me two totally fucked up tool chests.
[22:22:31] <alex4nder> worth almost a grand each.
[22:22:32] <pfred1> yeah?
[22:22:34] <Loetmichel> it seems ANY argument is wasted on pfred1. he doesent read them.
[22:22:50] <Loetmichel> or doesent WANT to.
[22:22:52] <alex4nder> yah, I returned both of them.
[22:23:02] <pfred1> what was wrong with them?
[22:23:05] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: well, realize how fucked the western economy is for 'workers' is really frigtening.
[22:23:09] <alex4nder> pfred1: let me find pics..
[22:23:23] <pfred1> alex4nder can't just describe it?
[22:23:30] <alex4nder> it'll sound minor
[22:23:55] <pfred1> Gerstner boxes are supposed to be top notch
[22:24:10] * pfred1 has taken the virtual factory tour ...
[22:24:11] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: the tool box itself was Fubar or the contents?
[22:24:28] <pfred1> they do seem to know what they're about
[22:25:03] <pfred1> bit on the high priced side though
[22:25:18] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: if i could pay them i would buy parat tool chests
[22:25:20] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: toolbox itself.
[22:25:30] <pfred1> a $1,000 Gerstner box is kind of their lower end
[22:25:38] <Loetmichel> and gedore/dowidat wrenches
[22:25:39] <jymmm> Bosch - Made in Taiwan
[22:25:44] <Loetmichel> and belzer screwdrivers
[22:26:18] <alex4nder> pfred1: no it isn't
[22:26:21] <Loetmichel> and knipex pilers
[22:26:43] <pfred1> alex4nder yeah it really is being as they make custom boxes that run 10-20K
[22:26:44] <Loetmichel> ... i was raised in "remscheid" , the tool city in germany ;-)
[22:26:49] <jymmm> http://i47.tinypic.com/ibf9c9.jpg
[22:26:49] <alex4nder> pfred1: no it's really not
[22:26:55] <alex4nder> that's their custom stuff
[22:26:58] <alex4nder> which is at the top end
[22:27:08] <alex4nder> their low end is ~$450 for a US-made box
[22:27:14] <pfred1> a grand is one of their production models
[22:27:19] <alex4nder> ok
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[22:27:30] <pfred1> where the trainees work
[22:27:44] <alex4nder> pfred1: if that logic is true, that's why they should go out of business
[22:27:56] <alex4nder> you get 1% custom $10k chests, and 99% $1k boxes.
[22:28:01] <pfred1> yeah because some folks are just born craftsmen
[22:28:13] <alex4nder> http://imgur.com/a/G5e5G
[22:28:16] <pfred1> it doesn't take them 30+ years to prefect their skills
[22:28:21] <alex4nder> look at the pics
[22:28:24] <alex4nder> apparently it's hard to glue things
[22:28:36] <alex4nder> first two pictures are from the second more expensive box they sent me
[22:28:39] <alex4nder> the last pic is from the first box
[22:28:46] <pfred1> alex4nder falling apart I wouldn't call minor
[22:29:00] <pfred1> it doesn't look like they even glued it
[22:29:00] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: it is if you forget the white glue ;-)
[22:29:16] <alex4nder> pfred1: the wood was oriented the wrong way, and split on the grain
[22:29:17] <Loetmichel> or paint the wood BEFORE glueing it
[22:29:21] <alex4nder> yah
[22:29:23] <alex4nder> Gerstner sucks
[22:29:43] <pfred1> alex4nder they didn't make good on it?
[22:29:48] <alex4nder> pfred1: oh they did
[22:29:51] <pfred1> their stuff has a lifetime warranty doesn't it?
[22:29:55] <pfred1> I'm sure they did
[22:30:03] <pfred1> I just wanted you to say it
[22:30:06] <pfred1> you fucking crybaby
[22:30:08] <alex4nder> say what?
[22:30:08] <Loetmichel> (had that one just a few hors ago, wife had the front of a drawer in her and... the rest was still in the cabinet ;-)=
[22:30:14] <alex4nder> pfred1: they cost me $250 in time to deal with it
[22:30:26] <alex4nder> so I just sent them all back
[22:30:29] <alex4nder> and asked for a refund.
[22:30:38] <alex4nder> and they even fucked that up
[22:30:43] <pfred1> nothing like working with someone is there?
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[22:31:25] <alex4nder> pfred1: think of it this way: they have Chinese Gerstners for 1/10th the price.. I expect the American Gerstner to be perfect, out of the gate.
[22:31:37] <alex4nder> missing glue, or finishing over splintered wood, or whatever, is a non-starter.
[22:31:41] <alex4nder> I shouldn't have even seen these boxes.
[22:31:45] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: lemme guess: "you have destroyed it, you dont get any refund"
[22:31:53] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: oh no, I use american express.
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[22:31:58] <alex4nder> I have the nuclear option.
[22:32:32] <alex4nder> Loetmichel: they gave me the money back wrong, which ended in me having to create a paypal account to get a refund.
[22:32:34] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[22:32:43] <pfred1> alex4nder like you said they are competing with chinese goods at 1/10th the price
[22:32:51] <alex4nder> pfred1: they make the chinese goods.
[22:33:01] <alex4nder> so if they're both fucked up, all it means is Americans can't compete with China.
[22:33:05] <Loetmichel> sounds familliar
[22:33:05] <alex4nder> so .. tough shit
[22:33:21] <pfred1> on a living wage level we can't
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[22:33:21] <alex4nder> I'm not buying something fucked up because it says 'Made in the US' on the side.
[22:33:33] <alex4nder> pfred1: you can QC your wooden toolboxes on a living wage.
[22:33:38] <alex4nder> or you shouldn't be making toolboxes.
[22:33:38] <pfred1> then move to china don't let the border hit you on the way out
[22:33:42] <alex4nder> haha
[22:33:44] <alex4nder> pfred1: you don't get it
[22:33:53] <pfred1> pick a side
[22:34:00] <JT-Shop> dang static is getting worse in here than the mailing list
[22:34:01] <Loetmichel> pfred1: like you?
[22:34:09] <pfred1> yeah I'm picking the west
[22:34:11] * jymmm returns after the shelling has stopped.
[22:34:15] <Loetmichel> he HAS picked a side: HIS one
[22:34:17] <alex4nder> JT-Shop: /ignore is sick
[22:34:26] <alex4nder> pfred1: yah, I'm picking not buying dogshit
[22:34:30] <alex4nder> it's a pretty easy side to pick
[22:34:38] <alex4nder> I don't buy chinese crap, and I don't buy american products that are bad.
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[22:34:52] <pfred1> alex4nder just as long as you're prepared to eat dogshit
[22:34:57] <alex4nder> I'm not
[22:35:12] <alex4nder> this mindset you're showing is why America is getting its ass kicked
[22:35:21] <alex4nder> its the same mindset that American automakers had for years
[22:35:29] <alex4nder> "Buy Mercan cuz it's Mercan"
[22:35:31] <pfred1> we're getting abused because people are greedy
[22:35:34] <alex4nder> that's not an argument.
[22:35:43] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: and thats the part pfred1 will never get: chinese ma be bad sometimes, but american (oder german for that matter) can and do produce as much shit theirself
[22:35:46] <pfred1> no buy US because you're US
[22:35:55] <alex4nder> I'm not buying US if the US is bad.
[22:36:02] <alex4nder> do you know I buy Japanese jeans now?
[22:36:06] <pfred1> then work to make it better
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[22:36:16] <alex4nder> I am, I build products that I hope are good.
[22:36:19] <alex4nder> and customers pay me for them.
[22:36:20] <pfred1> don't just be a spoiled brat
[22:36:29] <alex4nder> haha, why are you attacking me, now?
[22:36:34] <pfred1> waa I paid my money now i have to do more!
[22:36:39] <alex4nder> what?
[22:36:43] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop maybe it's time to start swinging a bat around
[22:36:43] <pfred1> tough shit sometimes life is like that suck it up
[22:36:44] <alex4nder> do you understand what a customer is?
[22:36:57] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: there's also the polite option
[22:37:01] <JT-Shop> fuck that I'm loading the cannon
[22:37:03] <alex4nder> of just asking people to stop talking about the subject.
[22:37:13] <Tom_itx> maybe it's time to bring it back ot here
[22:37:16] <Loetmichel> alex4nder: no he doesent
[22:37:20] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ojc5zfG3f8
[22:37:25] <alex4nder> cool
[22:37:25] <Tom_itx> alex4nder like that?
[22:37:27] <joe9> ReadError_: you around?
[22:37:41] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: 'please stop talking about this subject'
[22:37:43] <joe9> ReadError_: what was the model number of the engraving bits we ordered?
[22:37:50] <pfred1> Tom_itx at times the topic of this channel has been tool related conversation
[22:37:59] <pfred1> today it happens to be something else
[22:38:00] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: one tiny piece of swarf will make the BP Discovery 308 tool changer not work
[22:38:17] <Tom_itx> what's up with that?
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[22:38:51] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop did the extra load help the phase inverter problem?
[22:39:02] <JT-Shop> stuck on the Z home slider bar made the whole thing off a bit
[22:39:25] <JT-Shop> yes, having the Samson running at 660 RPM stiffened up the power
[22:39:42] <JT-Shop> see I'm learning new things about power distrubution
[22:40:04] <pfred1> sounds disturbing
[22:40:26] <JT-Shop> nickel creek?
[22:40:50] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, my bud went thru similar issues when he was still in his garage running the phase inverter
[22:41:09] <Tom_itx> remembering to keep the loading right
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[22:41:34] <Tom_itx> he had a bridgeport tracer and manual equipment that was fine but the little cnc didn't like it
[22:41:37] <JT-Shop> it sucks cause the CHNC has a Siemens drive of a different type and it could care less about the incoming power it just runs
[22:41:46] <Tom_itx> yup
[22:42:50] <Tom_itx> the old boss5 didn't mind it
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[22:43:56] <r00t4rd3d> pfred1, MDF
[22:44:03] <r00t4rd3d> sry for the delay :)
[22:44:11] <JT-Shop> I'm going to call Siemens back next week to see if there is anything I can do to detune it a bit till I can get a zillion amps of power
[22:44:31] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d You'd better watch that MDF has a hard time supporting its own weight
[22:44:44] <Tom_itx> are you a big enough operation to support 3 phase brought in or will they?
[22:44:50] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d google torsion box
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[22:44:57] <r00t4rd3d> yeah i know
[22:45:16] <r00t4rd3d> i might replace it with aluminum
[22:45:19] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d I have a desk here that is laminated 1 1/8" thick MDF and it is warped
[22:45:22] <r00t4rd3d> the table atleast
[22:46:06] <Loetmichel> r00t4rd3d: at least paint the MDF from the underside, too
[22:46:17] <pfred1> yeah that is a help
[22:46:29] <pfred1> but MDF still can't lay flat and support itself accurately
[22:46:53] <Loetmichel> to prevent it from the "bimetal" effect occuring when it can suck up air moistrure from the underside and not from the topside
[22:46:54] <pfred1> I wish it could
[22:47:00] <pfred1> oh I know
[22:47:58] <pfred1> least you have those heavy metal plates on the side i bet they'll help
[22:48:22] <r00t4rd3d> aluminum
[22:48:29] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d have you ever seen the buildyourcnc design?
[22:48:37] <r00t4rd3d> probably
[22:48:40] <pfred1> the original one
[22:48:49] <pfred1> with the angles on the edges
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[22:50:18] <pfred1> I think it is the best for a flying gantry skate bearing design I've ever seen
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[22:51:25] <pfred1> though now they use the V broove bearings
[22:51:29] <pfred1> V groove even
[23:06:34] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: much to expensive to bring 3-phase out here
[23:06:57] <Tom_itx> yeah i wasn't sure about that
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[23:22:36] <pfred1> the power company still appreciates load balancing
[23:23:01] <pfred1> I think they're starting to mandate it in fact
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[23:47:07] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/10847
[23:47:27] <r00t4rd3d> Holding Torque: 90N.cm
[23:47:37] <r00t4rd3d> would i be able to hold that still with my fingers?
[23:51:12] <r00t4rd3d> my x axis is kinda tight and i am wondering if those motors i got will be enough
[23:51:35] <r00t4rd3d> i can spin and move it with my fingers
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[23:56:16] <pfred1> heh I have those motors
[23:56:21] <pfred1> they're vextas
[23:56:34] <pfred1> well I have vextas a lot like them
[23:56:59] <r00t4rd3d> they have alot of power?
[23:57:18] <pfred1> ah
[23:57:27] <pfred1> I drive mine unipolar
[23:58:02] <pfred1> they're kinda dinky
[23:58:36] <pfred1> they're borderline for a CNC router
[23:58:45] <pfred1> I am using 2 on my Y axis
[23:59:42] <pfred1> I've seen those motors going for $7 a piece