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[02:39:02] <skunkworks> logger[mah]:
[02:39:02] <logger[mah]> skunkworks: Log stored at
http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc-devel/2013-06-29.html
[02:48:41] <skunkworks> rescapind
[02:49:22] <skunkworks> that should mean something
[02:51:39] <Tom_itx> it should?
[02:54:15] <skunkworks> short for resistor capasitor inductor.. Some reason a teacher in college embedded that in my brain
[02:55:09] <Tom_itx> i never would have gotten that outta it
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[04:44:25] <zultron> Hey CaptHindsight, I've got a couple of Xerox Phasers here & was thinking how they could be used for 3D printing. Turns out it's been done already:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/diy_3d_printing_and_fabrication/message/4621
[04:44:39] <zultron> Nice results, huh?
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[04:45:20] <zultron> I was hoping they'd be color prints. :)
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[06:16:01] <zultron> Hmm, I thought CDT is GMT-5, so if tomorrow's meeting is at 16:00 GMT, then that's 11:00 CDT here.
[06:16:46] <zultron> To be double-sure, I put the appointment in google calendar at 16:00 GMT, but it placed the appointment on my calendar at 10:00 CDT.
[06:17:48] <zultron> My brain sucks, Google sucks, and the US sucks (and should convert permanently to Daylight Time).
[06:18:00] <zultron> See y'all tomorrow, hopefully.
[07:07:41] <CaptHindsight> zultron: yes, photopolymer or phase change materials like wax, the colorqube's are a low cost source for printheadsheads
[07:07:57] <CaptHindsight> only one head
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[14:03:09] <seb_kuzminsky> argh, daylight savings screwed me up again, the meeting's 2 hours from now, not 1 :-/
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[14:04:25] <zultron> Ha, seb_kuzminsky, I was thrown off by Google. They've got a bug in their calendar.
[14:04:47] <Tom_itx> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html
[14:05:05] <Tom_itx> for you who are trying to figure out what time the meeting starts, it's 1600 GMT
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[14:52:12] <memleak> Hello all!
[14:52:48] <memleak> jepler: I know you were working on the pagefault issue with PREEMPT_RT. Just so you know, Lars Sergerlund is actively working to fix the issue and get PREEMPT_RT working.
[14:52:49] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: I had the same problem. I know I'm -5 or -6 but sometimes get confused about which is which
[14:53:16] <memleak> He did mention there was a lot of overhead cruft, linking issues, and many other things.
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[14:54:15] <memleak> "I think I might have a clue, it could be so that we are using a lib
[14:54:16] <memleak> without mlocked pages from a realtime context ! So far it's just a
[14:54:16] <memleak> hunch ... but I'll look into it.
[14:54:16] <memleak> If this is so, a build that is statically linked would perform
[14:54:16] <memleak> better, so it could be a linking problem.
[14:54:16] <memleak> This is only a guess so far, but I haven't fund anything obvious."
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[14:59:48] <jepler> we can't static link, we depend on dlopen for loadrt
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[15:05:34] <jepler> anyway I remain skeptical that the original problem is page faults. until a deadline-missed message is printed, ps says there are zero faults in the realtime thread of rtapi while running 'latency-test 1ms 1ms'
[15:05:39] <jepler> $ ps -L -o pid,tid,min_flt,maj_flt 25448
[15:05:41] <jepler> PID TID MINFL MAJFL
[15:05:44] <jepler> 25448 25448 8890 0
[15:05:46] <jepler> 25448 25449 0 0
[15:05:49] <jepler> this is rtos-master-v0 + dlopen RTLD_NOW fix
[15:06:41] <memleak> I've noticed that too.. Well that complicates things I guess.. :/
[15:08:05] <jepler> unless it's ps which is lying. even after provoking this:
[15:08:07] <jepler> ERROR: Missed scheduling deadline for task 1 [1 times]
[15:08:08] <jepler> Now is 206104.930071115, deadline was 206104.091605354
[15:08:08] <jepler> Absolute number of pagefaults in realtime context: 6
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[15:08:23] <jepler> ps is still reporting 0 page faults in thread 25449
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[15:10:41] <memleak> Do you have anything conclusive or is it just too confusing? Because I've been stuck on it for weeks, and I've been working on it full-time.
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[15:12:18] <jepler> I am only a dabbler
[15:12:29] <jepler> I have not run the -rt kernel on hardware I believe has good latency anyway
[15:13:17] <memleak> I don't think it's related to hardware at all, I've tried it with 3 different systems.
[15:13:36] <memleak> All with normally good latency...
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[15:14:38] <jepler> anyway as I understand it your experience is different than mine
[15:14:48] <jepler> I get roughly the same results from latency-test 1ms 1ms and from cyclictest
[15:15:04] <jepler> if I understand right your results are different (latency-test worse than cyclictest by way more than 2x)
[15:15:50] <skunkworks> memleak: have you tried idle=poll in the kernel line?
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[15:16:24] <memleak> jepler: only in incredibly rare cases it does.
[15:16:54] <skunkworks> the system I am playing with xnomai - it took 2 video cards and poll=idle for the latecy to be consistent. <10us
[15:17:07] <memleak> jepler: most of the time it's around 200,000 - 300,000 nanoseconds with PREEMPT_RT
[15:17:28] <memleak> skunkworks, xenomai with linuxcnc hardly complies without a bunch of changes to the linker flags.
[15:18:08] <memleak> LinuxCNC is even further away with trying to compile it against RTAI
[15:18:29] <memleak> The submakefiles need a lot of work.
[15:18:57] <skunkworks> memleak: well - following the directions here is pretty painless running xnomai with linuxcnc - I have done it a few times....
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?NewRTInstall
[15:19:10] <skunkworks> *quite a few times
[15:19:26] <memleak> make dies in LinuxCNC
[15:19:35] <memleak> ^with that guide
[15:21:12] * skunkworks just did it yesterday...
[15:21:32] <memleak> I have to hardcode several linker flags in the submakefiles then even after it compiles, I get terrible latency. Haven't tried idle=poll / poll=idle in the kernel command line but i still get the same issue with PREEMPT_RT
[15:21:52] <memleak> (i.e. the pagefault error gets thrown)
[15:22:16] <memleak> Works fine for about 2 minutes, then all the sudden, 200,000 nanoseconds.
[15:22:46] <skunkworks> You should post your errors with the xenomai and linuxcnc. I think mharbler would like to know.
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[15:23:36] <memleak> I did, he laughed at my hard-coded linker flags and said I did it wrong, then disappeared.
[15:24:29] <memleak> Still isn't fixed in upstream, several weeks have gone by.
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[15:25:04] <memleak> I'll post the errors to the mailing list though when I get a chance.
[15:25:28] <skunkworks> sounds good
[15:25:59] <memleak> Alright, take care all!
[15:26:12] <memleak> jepler: I'll pass your info along to Lars.
[15:26:34] <memleak> logger[psha], link
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[15:38:27] <jepler> zultron: when you wrote rtapi_get_pagefault_count were you aware of RUSAGE_THREAD ?
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[15:42:41] <mhaberler> I think that is 1:1 copy & paste from Michael Buesch or Lars Segerlund code
[15:43:25] <jepler> OK, 'git gui blame' attributed it to John Morris
[15:43:41] <zultron> Yeah, what Michael said
[15:44:46] <jepler> I wonder whether RUSAGE_THREAD should be used there, so that the number of pagefaults in this realtime thread can be reported, not just the numbers in all threads (*including the non-realtime thread*) minus a baseline number
[15:45:14] <jepler> it's quite expected to have page faults in the main thread at least during setup times
[15:45:37] <jepler> .. like when an additional component is loadrt'd
[15:47:17] <zultron> memleak, sorry you're experiencing so many build issues. I believe I've pretty much sorted all those out in my UB branch, but that hasn't been merged into Michael's kitchen sink branch yet.
[15:48:50] <zultron> I'll probably start the merge in about a week once I fix non-RIP builds.
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[16:27:57] <jepler> agenda item: a limit on the number of persons named "tom", "john" and "jon" shall be set
[16:28:10] <cradek> snrk
[16:31:42] <zultron> :P
[16:35:29] <CaptHindsight> zultron: where is your UB branch located? memleak has only been working off of Michael's kitchen sink branch
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[16:36:44] <memleak> zultron: which git tree has your fixes in it so I can review them?
[16:36:51] <memleak> Sorry I missed your comments!
[16:38:06] <memleak> I know you have some pre-packaged .debs but those won't help me much.
[16:38:20] <CaptHindsight> memleak: I asked the same question seconds before you reappeared here :)
[16:38:35] <memleak> Whoops..
[16:39:01] <CaptHindsight> most are in the meeting channel now
[16:43:49] <memleak> Looks like it might be this branch:
http://git.mah.priv.at/gitweb?p=emc2-dev.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/dynload-rtapi-common-shm-ub-wip
[16:46:16] <CaptHindsight> memlaek: I'll be around if you need to leave, or you can check the logs
[16:47:26] <memleak> I see tons of changes to Submakefiles and header files that should fix the compiling errors at least without the need to hardcode variables in a quick and dirty way.
[16:52:22] <memleak> As for the pagefault / latency issues I don't see anything yet in the tree. Still looking.
[16:53:00] <zultron> memleak, CaptHindsight, I maintain my branch on github. I'll send it after the meeting, 'k?
[16:53:51] <CaptHindsight> zultron: great! it' great!
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[17:57:07] <CaptHindsight> https://github.com/zultron/linuxcnc/tree/dynload-rtapi-common-shm-ub-wip
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[17:57:34] <CaptHindsight> ok, so that's the branch memleak just found
[17:59:03] <zultron> Good deal. From #linuxcnc just now:
[17:59:04] <zultron> <zultron> CaptHindsight, let me know if you guys need instructions compiling it, but the base case is quite simple: ./configure && make
[17:59:07] <zultron> <zultron> (prepended by ./autogen.sh, of course)
[18:01:13] <CaptHindsight> zultron: thanks
[18:01:38] <zultron> memleak, the branch at git.mah.priv.at may not always be up to date; I tell mhaberler to pull from github now and then, which can take a while.
[18:01:56] <memleak> It's the -wip one right?
[18:01:58] <CaptHindsight> micges: we were having a discussion about this in here :)
[18:02:01] <zultron> Yes, -wip
[18:02:23] <zultron> But use the github remote, not git.mah.priv.at.
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[18:02:37] <memleak> Of course, since that one is more up to date.
[18:03:04] <memleak> Did you spend a lot of time fixing the linking errors or was it pretty straight forward?
[18:03:30] <zultron> Frankly, I didn't have a lot of issues, except maybe the -llxrt one you ran into.
[18:03:40] <memleak> Ok. Hmm.
[18:03:51] <memleak> If I have any compiling errors do you want me to let you know?
[18:04:09] <zultron> I had a huge number of problems with the various CFLAGS, and ended up spending a few days sorting that all out.
[18:04:30] <zultron> Yes, I'd like to know, but I can do just limited hand-holding. ;)
[18:04:46] <memleak> CFLAGS that may have broke SSE math support?
[18:05:19] <memleak> i.e. compiling errors with sin/cos functions w/ RTAI
[18:05:42] <zultron> No, CFLAGS that contained linker args (and LDFLAGS that contained compiler flags), per-flavor CFLAGS defined in configure.in, Makefile, various Submakefiles, etc.
[18:05:43] <memleak> RTAI switched to libm recently for 2.6+ kernels
[18:05:55] <zultron> Just lots of mess.
[18:06:00] <memleak> The RTAI math support library has been dropped for 2.6.0+
[18:06:19] <zultron> Ah, well I haven't tried the new RTAI, so I may depend on your help for that.
[18:06:40] <memleak> Ok :) I have my own RTAI repo that I keep maintained much more often than upstream.
[18:06:58] <zultron> I saw the shabbyx repo, is that what you're talking about?
[18:07:11] <memleak> Yeah, I've basically took full control over his :P
[18:07:50] <memleak> Same SSE compiling error though with upstream RTAI.
[18:07:51] <zultron> It looks like Paolo is not too interested in integrating the changes that Shabby's collected, huh?
[18:08:06] <memleak> Indeed, hence why I joined teams with Shabby.
[18:08:21] <memleak> Paolo is weird sometimes.. >_>
[18:08:47] <zultron> Yes. I fear that will be the downfall of his project.
[18:09:01] <memleak> zultron: did you touch anything in your ub-wip branch in regards to pagefaults?
[18:09:15] <zultron> Why are you putting so much work into RTAI with this bleak outlook?
[18:09:44] <zultron> No, I haven't. Keep me informed of your and Lars's advances!
[18:10:04] <memleak> zultron: Because RTAI has been a trainwreck, I'm just picking up the pieces.
[18:10:10] <memleak> I'll keep you informed!
[18:10:19] <zultron> I've been working purely on the build system.
[18:10:20] <micges> zultron: give link for Shabby changes?
[18:10:29] <memleak> Somebody has to do it... And I'm offering.
[18:10:40] <zultron> memleak, got that link handy for micges?
[18:10:55] <memleak> To be honest, once LinuxCNC works without pagefaults and has good low latency, i probably wont have time to work on RTAI anymore.
[18:11:02] <memleak> Rather move to PREEMPT_RT kernel code.
[18:11:03] <zultron> Well, that's what I'm asking: why do you think someone needs to fix RTAI?
[18:11:04] <memleak> Much cleaner.
[18:11:18] <zultron> Ah, it's the pagefaults issue? Got it.
[18:11:21] <memleak> https://github.com/ShabbyX/RTAI
[18:11:28] <micges> thanks
[18:11:42] <memleak> I'm not fixing RTAI due to pagefaults. I'm fixing it because the code is awful.
[18:12:24] <zultron> Then my question remains: why? I can show you a lot of awful code, but there's no point in fixing it for lots of reasons.
[18:12:36] <memleak> And I was hoping to fix it up enough to use for a business project and do a lot of development with but turns out I really just need to drop RTAI and become an expert with PREEMPT_RT
[18:12:50] <micges> I've heared that all rtai code is awful
[18:12:52] <memleak> Hey I gotta go to an event right now, I'll be back in a few hours.
[18:12:59] <memleak> micges: you heard right!
[18:13:01] <memleak> Bye all!
[18:13:02] <zultron> Bye then!
[18:13:35] <zultron> The RTAI build/install system certainly has problems that drove me batty for a day.
[18:13:38] <memleak> sorry about the bad timing..
[18:13:45] <memleak> zultron: we'll keep in touch!
[18:13:51] <zultron> sure! see you
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[19:42:19] <Dave911> I missed the meeting, but read everything. A couple of things have been tabled, putting those issues in limbo. Waiting a month to have the next meeting seems excessively long. Why is the passage of a month required before an up and down vote on tabled issues?
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[20:02:13] <KGB-linuxcnc> 03Kim 05v2.5_branch db8ebf6 06linuxcnc 10docs/src/code/Code_Notes.txt * Docs: update an outdated paragraph
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[20:13:19] <cradek> Dave911: IMO the idea is that the time will let people discuss and think about it
[20:14:13] <cradek> I think "up and down vote" is the wrong way of thinking about the issues that didn't have suitable consensus
[20:15:35] <cradek> the time between meetings is for people to work together to decide what's best and come to agreement
[20:15:42] <cradek> the meeting just formalizes the result
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[20:16:46] <cradek> I see the tabled items as "no clear answer yet", not as "limbo"
[20:17:29] <ssi> the votes are easy for the easy stuff
[20:17:34] <ssi> the hard stuff is gonna take some discussion
[20:17:42] <cradek> yes
[20:17:47] <ssi> my concern is that that discussion won't happen in between, and it'll just get bounced month to month
[20:18:15] <cradek> if nobody bothers to cheerlead their idea and build support, then we will continue to have the status quo
[20:18:17] <ssi> or there'll be a discussion, but then at the meeting some dissenters will pop up who didn't participate in the discussion
[20:19:16] <cradek> the onus is on the person who's trying to propose a new action: to build support. I think that's mostly a feature.
[20:19:49] <ssi> you're probably right
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[20:20:16] <cradek> I do kind of wonder what happens if someone shows up and votes no on everything just to be a pain - we'll cross that bridge if we come to it I guess
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[20:21:21] <cradek> I think if someone is doing that, it will be apparent to everyone
[20:21:44] <ssi> I'm not so much talking about sandbagging like that
[20:22:00] <ssi> I more mean if there's some discussion but someone doesn't participate, but suddenly at the meeting they're gung-ho against
[20:22:42] <cradek> when d rogge proposed this scheme, he said it's a feature that the people who care are the ones who bother to show up
[20:23:00] <cradek> I hope that's what we find in the long run, too
[20:24:14] <cradek> I can imagine being sure that a proposal is bad, and reading the discussion but not being convinced (and being tired of explaining why I think it's bad). In that case, from the outside, my vote would appear like you say. I'm not sure it's a bug in the process, though...? Hard to say.
[20:24:40] <ssi> true
[20:24:57] <cradek> someone today proposed that a NO voter be asked to explain why not
[20:25:04] <ssi> and I guess this is where the "what constitutes a passing vote" argument comes in
[20:25:16] <cradek> yeah, that's the hard thing isn't it
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[20:25:47] <ssi> and like I said earlier, for some things it's less important than others
[20:25:54] <ssi> "I think we should implement foo"
[20:26:01] <ssi> you can say no, and thats fine, you don't have to implement it
[20:26:07] <ssi> but "I think we should move our repo"
[20:26:18] <ssi> well everyone's affected by it however it turns out
[20:26:27] <ssi> so the yardstick potentially should be different
[20:26:35] <ssi> I don't know how to generalize that though
[20:26:37] <cradek> I bet for more important things, more agreement is needed
[20:26:42] <ssi> right
[20:27:58] <cradek> I feel slightly out of my league talking about what the ideal process would be -- I'd rather talk about proposals
[20:28:12] <cradek> so I guess I'll wait and see what others say about the process
[20:28:17] <ssi> I imagine it'll evolve
[20:28:19] <cradek> all I know is it seemed to work today
[20:28:22] <cradek> right exactly
[20:32:07] <cradek> that's nice - now on SF our bugs get their own integers
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[20:45:03] <Tom_itx> voting no for valid reasons is different than just voting no to be an ass
[20:45:32] <Tom_itx> are the proposals presented supposed to be backed with a solution?
[20:45:42] <Tom_itx> or is it more of a wish list?
[20:46:54] <Tom_itx> i sorta see two different patterns. those with a wish list and those that are more hard core that want core changes made
[20:47:40] <Tom_itx> and i feel i haven't been active in it long enough to propose anything
[20:48:18] <Tom_itx> but i see a few things that would be nice
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