#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-11-14

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[00:13:21] <jdh> http://tinyurl.com/k5nyede
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[00:17:38] <Tom_itx> need a magnetic base?
[00:17:50] <jdh> no, but it looks cool
[00:19:48] <PCW> Chem lab stuff
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[00:33:20] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/S9BT19F.png
[00:33:23] <zeeshan> can someone make sense of this chart
[00:33:37] <zeeshan> the right column "aperture dependent depth of field"
[00:33:50] <zeeshan> so for a 20x16 mm measuring volume
[00:33:58] <zeeshan> theyre saying the depth of field is 16mm? :P
[00:34:02] <zeeshan> whats the 0.2 for
[00:35:31] <PCW> 16 is the aperture (NA) .2 is .2 mm depth of field
[00:35:49] <PCW> (when stopped down to F16)
[00:35:57] <zeeshan> aperture is the thing that controls
[00:35:59] <zeeshan> how much light gets in right?
[00:36:05] <zeeshan> and is measured in "f-stops"
[00:36:17] <PCW> yes (and also depth of field)
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[00:36:33] <zeeshan> okay so this means if my lighting is terrible at f16
[00:36:39] <zeeshan> i cant simply just open the aperture up more
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[00:36:43] <zeeshan> i'll need to increase lighting
[00:36:54] <zeeshan> cause if i try to change aperture, then i lose my depth of field
[00:37:02] <zeeshan> ^ does this logic seem right?
[00:37:16] <PCW> yep (well on the top line)
[00:37:23] * JT-Shop only needs 6' of stove gasket to finish regasketing the stove... it's just going to smoke a bit in the moring
[00:37:31] <JT-Shop> morning
[00:37:41] <PCW> more light!
[00:37:50] * Tom_itx wonders what JT-Shop looks like after working on the stove all day
[00:37:52] <zeeshan> aziz
[00:37:55] <zeeshan> MORE LIGHT!
[00:38:12] <PCW> :-)
[00:38:36] <JT-Shop> had to wait till the fire burned out to work on it... the stuff I bought was hard as a rock so at the last minute I had to run to menards and return that and go with plan b
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[00:45:15] <Tom_L> need lunch money?
[00:45:17] <Tom_L> http://www.electronicproducts.com/Computer_Systems/Modules/Intel_owes_you_a_15_check_if_you_purchased_a_Pentium_4_processor_between_2000_and_2002.aspx
[00:49:12] <JT-Shop> don't take much to buy a slice of lettuce and a few radishes and a carrot
[00:49:27] <renesis> tom_l: no one bought pentium 4 between 2000 and 2002
[00:49:29] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[00:49:51] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, in the HAL file, having one signal driving, say, two outputs, can I somehow insert a delay for one of those outputs?
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[00:50:20] <LeelooMinai> So one outputs gets on first, then, say, 10ms later, the other one
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[00:52:43] <PCW> man timedelay
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[01:08:25] <Jymmm> XXCoder: O_o
[01:08:31] <LeelooMinai> "loadrt timedelay [count=N|names=name1[,name2...]]" <- if I use names, say, drivers-enable, then I would use drivers-enable name or timdelay.drivers-enable?
[01:08:45] <Jymmm> XXCoder: nevermind
[01:15:03] <PCW> drivers-enable
[01:15:40] <PCW> (you can look in your pnnconf built hal file for examples)
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[01:16:17] <LeelooMinai> It did not really have anything that used names
[01:17:12] <PCW> Hmm the examples I have do
[01:17:57] <LeelooMinai> It generated hal that looks like this at the beginning: http://i.imgur.com/vwrb7tU.png
[01:18:23] <LeelooMinai> Without the timedelay component, which I just added
[01:19:50] <PCW> the exampl i'm looking at has these for example:
[01:19:51] <PCW> loadrt pid names=pid.x,pid.z,pid.s
[01:19:53] <PCW> loadrt mux16 names=jogincr,foincr,mvoincr,soincr
[01:21:28] <LeelooMinai> THe file I am talking about is just a file generated for 5i25 with one 7i76
[01:21:52] <LeelooMinai> Maybe I did not select some options for jog control
[01:22:42] <PCW> yeah a spartan hal file may not have more that a couple added components
[01:23:33] <PCW> but in general it looks like pncconf uses named rather than numbered components
[01:23:58] <LeelooMinai> Can I direct outputs/inputs without using net names?
[01:24:17] <LeelooMinai> Like output => input1 input2
[01:24:25] <LeelooMinai> Or do I have to use net <name>?
[01:24:35] <PCW> no you must use a signal
[01:25:22] <PCW> net <signal> in out in in in ...
[01:25:29] <cpresser> btw, you dont need those arrows. its just a netlist
[01:26:27] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, but then it has to figure their direction by node types, right?
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[01:26:52] <PCW> I think there was some talk about anonymous signals but I dont know if they well be added or not
[01:27:24] <PCW> it knows the directions so that's not an issue
[01:27:27] <LeelooMinai> It could be simple to just make them with names glued together or something
[01:27:43] <LeelooMinai> I mean those implicit signal names
[01:28:24] <LeelooMinai> Or just name then singal0, 1, etc.
[01:29:14] <PCW> If I had my druthers
[01:29:16] <PCW> net $ in out in in
[01:29:17] <PCW> would work
[01:30:03] <PCW> (show signals would show $1,$2 etc)
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[01:30:35] <LeelooMinai> If $ is not used, seems reasonable
[01:31:12] <PCW> anyway ist not there now so you must suffer
[01:37:45] <PCW> also depends on the coding style
[01:37:46] <PCW> pncconf does this
[01:37:48] <PCW> net machine-asplode In-Bit-88
[01:37:49] <PCW> ...
[01:37:51] <PCW> net machine-asplode => run_hide
[01:37:53] <PCW> where you need a self explanatory name for readability
[01:37:54] <PCW> rather than
[01:37:56] <PCW> net xxx In-Bit-88 run_hide
[01:38:22] <LeelooMinai> Yes, sometimes one way is better
[01:39:08] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, if I want sytax specific for the net command, I should use some man ..., like in the man timedelay example, or do something else?
[01:40:36] <PCW> man for the components (probably after reading the hal and integrator manuals)
[01:40:40] <Computer_Barf> could i theoretically download the linuxCNC 2.6 iso and boot it using virtual box? I just want to play around with the interface to familiarize myself with the program
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[02:42:40] <zeeshan> i hated the arrows before
[02:42:46] <zeeshan> cause i had no clue what was going on, but man do they help :D
[02:42:50] <zeeshan> once you get used to em
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[03:51:59] <zeeshan> can someone help clarify some confusion about VFDs? when i look at a VFD rated for single phase 3HP , max current input is 27A. but that same model/manufacturer vfd rated for three phase, 3HP has a max current input of 15A. both vfds need a 240VAC input.
[03:52:18] <zeeshan> why is one vfd drawing 6480 W
[03:52:27] <zeeshan> and the other only drawing 3600W?
[03:52:56] <zeeshan> the only thing i can come up with is when you go from single phase to 3 phase
[03:53:04] <zeeshan> you need sqrt(3) more current
[03:53:27] <zeeshan> 3600*sqrt(3) ~= 6230 W which is close to the single phase rating..
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[03:55:12] <zeeshan> the next question is, why does a 3HP motor (2240W) require 3600W input on the VFD?
[03:55:20] <zeeshan> where is the extra 1.5 kW going?
[03:56:51] <XXCoder> https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zb5tMjBeswM heh
[03:59:12] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: why?
[03:59:23] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: what do you mean why
[04:00:00] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: I don't know why. Please tell me.
[04:00:11] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: im asking 2 questions
[04:00:14] <zeeshan> not answering 2 questions :P
[04:00:48] <zeeshan> honestly the only thing i can come up with for the 1.5kW power consumption
[04:00:57] <zeeshan> is they're accounting for startup currents
[04:00:58] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: oh, I thought it was a question joke.
[04:01:14] <zeeshan> and maybe a couple hundred watts get wasted in the electronics
[04:01:20] <CaptHindsight> like why did the chicken cross the road sorta thing
[04:01:21] <zeeshan> like voltage regulators and stuff
[04:01:31] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: no both are serious questions
[04:01:42] <zeeshan> my answers are just speculation or a guess
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[04:02:35] <zeeshan> honestly, whenever i've used 3 phase vfds inthe past
[04:02:39] <CaptHindsight> question #1 might be power loss due to inefficiency of the VFD. I really don't know. Who said that it does?
[04:02:45] <zeeshan> i've taken the 3 phase current rating
[04:02:54] <zeeshan> and multiplied it by 1.73 (sqrt 3)
[04:03:12] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: the manufacturer's spec sheet does
[04:04:47] <CaptHindsight> I'd have to take some guesses at how they designed them.
[04:05:32] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/xFf1jGc.png
[04:05:36] <zeeshan> specs right from the manual
[04:05:45] <zeeshan> i guess i could email my boss
[04:05:48] <zeeshan> who designs these
[04:05:49] <zeeshan> lol
[04:05:57] <zeeshan> i havent talked to him in a long time though :/
[04:06:01] <zeeshan> would be so odd just msging him randomly
[04:06:07] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: whats your guesses?
[04:06:30] <zeeshan> if you do 15*sqrt(3)
[04:06:31] <zeeshan> you get 26A
[04:06:41] <zeeshan> which is pretty damn close to the 1 phase number
[04:06:55] <zeeshan> maybe 1A gets lost due to inefficiency of single phase
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[04:07:20] <CaptHindsight> first I'd like to slap the person that created that table
[04:08:04] <zeeshan> why
[04:08:43] <CaptHindsight> do you have the whole spec sheet or just that table?
[04:08:50] <zeeshan> i have it all
[04:08:50] <zeeshan> :P
[04:09:26] <CaptHindsight> I've been looking at docs all day written by people with expressive writing disorders
[04:09:35] <zeeshan> rofl
[04:11:49] <CaptHindsight> http://www.eaton.com/ecm/idcplg?IdcService=GET_FILE&dID=168479
[04:12:04] <zeeshan> i has
[04:12:29] <CaptHindsight> page #3 lists Heat Loss Data
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[04:12:56] <zeeshan> here is more proof between difference
[04:13:05] <zeeshan> of single phase and 3 phase by another manufacturer
[04:13:22] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/VBedaAN.png
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[04:13:53] <zeeshan> 12.5*sqrt(3) = 22A
[04:14:00] <zeeshan> almost close to the 24A
[04:14:16] <CaptHindsight> your chart isn't in the manual I found
[04:14:41] <zeeshan> ch 3
[04:14:45] <zeeshan> page 26
[04:14:54] <zeeshan> page 3-7 on the actual manual
[04:15:00] <zeeshan> what page on the manual is the heat loss data?
[04:15:07] <CaptHindsight> ah my doc only goes to page #20
[04:15:10] <zeeshan> table 4-3?
[04:15:18] <zeeshan> MVX001A0-2 (3 phase) 38
[04:15:20] <zeeshan> W
[04:15:22] <zeeshan> for example
[04:15:52] <zeeshan> this is why when i remember having this conversation in her before
[04:16:18] <zeeshan> about how someone was telling me "its a 5 hp motor aka 3730W consumption"
[04:16:40] <zeeshan> "it will draw 15A at 240V"
[04:16:45] <zeeshan> was a whole lot of crap for a 3 phase motor :P
[04:17:21] <CaptHindsight> https://www.galco.com/techdoc/chgp/mvx9000_um.pdf this version has 144 pages
[04:17:38] <zeeshan> yea the one im looking at has 144 pages
[04:17:48] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: honestly its not about the manufacturer
[04:17:53] <zeeshan> its consistent w/ different manufacturers
[04:18:17] <zeeshan> the single phase input current for a specific hp drive is at least 1.732* the 3 phase same hp rating on the input
[04:18:29] <CaptHindsight> Wiring Table
[04:18:32] <zeeshan> i remember when you used a 3 phase circuit
[04:18:39] <zeeshan> and you tried to extract single phase out of it
[04:18:56] <zeeshan> you had sqrt(3) * I_line_to_line
[04:19:07] <zeeshan> i forgot the math behind it (we were using phasors)
[04:21:23] <CaptHindsight> I was trying to see what the inputs were
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[04:22:55] <CaptHindsight> so you;re wonder what the math is behind why there's almost 2x more current when there s a single phase vs 3 phase
[04:23:13] <CaptHindsight> sorry can't type anymore :p
[04:24:00] <zeeshan> yea i guess summary of my questions are: is sqrt(3) * I_3phase the reason for current diff between single phase and three phase (going back to poly circuit math)
[04:24:19] <zeeshan> and why a 3hp motor @ 2300 w consumes 3600W on the input side of the vfd
[04:24:41] <zeeshan> are vfds really the ineffienct that they waste approx 1.5kW through losses (heat etc)
[04:25:27] <CaptHindsight> no heat loss was a few 100 max W
[04:25:37] <zeeshan> fair enough
[04:25:54] <CaptHindsight> see page A-1 (114)
[04:26:01] <zeeshan> i dont see the control side consuming more than 50W at most!
[04:26:39] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: dont you hate it when pdfs give you a specific number
[04:26:44] <zeeshan> and the manual page number doesnt match? :D
[04:26:44] <zeeshan> haha
[04:26:50] <zeeshan> that crap happens in car manuals all the time
[04:27:20] <CaptHindsight> well they number the doc however but the PDF reader starts the first page with 1
[04:27:44] <CaptHindsight> lets start numbering the pages at page 7
[04:27:49] <CaptHindsight> thanks
[04:27:54] <zeeshan> :D
[04:28:42] <zeeshan> i doint see much on loss on that page
[04:28:47] <pcw_home> the IGBTs may have 100W or more conduction and switching losses at full load
[04:29:13] <zeeshan> pcw_home: can they go as high as 1kW?
[04:29:18] <CaptHindsight> for a 3HP motor Input Rating (to the VFD) 1 phase/3 phase Rated Input Current 27/15
[04:29:19] <pcw_home> no
[04:29:29] <zeeshan> yea CaptHindsight thats the big one :P
[04:30:14] <pcw_home> a single phase input will have a poor power factor
[04:30:25] <zeeshan> 3hp => 2240W / 240VAC = 9.32A != 15A
[04:30:42] <zeeshan> even with overload of 150%
[04:30:48] <pcw_home> so will have a higher VA
[04:30:56] <zeeshan> we're at 14A
[04:31:00] <zeeshan> getting close :P
[04:32:50] <CaptHindsight> 9 x 1.73 = 15.6
[04:33:12] <renesis> oh man he said igbt <3
[04:33:22] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: that wouldnt make sense :P
[04:34:21] <pcw_home> watts are watts 3 phase is not relevant unless you are measuring per leg motor currents
[04:34:49] <zeeshan> pcw_home: then plz explain the 27 vs 15A difference
[04:35:14] <pcw_home> overload and power factor
[04:36:03] <CaptHindsight> I'm still not sure what the question is :)
[04:36:26] <pcw_home> its possible to have 100A at 100V AC and only 100W power
[04:37:28] <zeeshan> P = VI cos phi
[04:37:30] <pcw_home> you cannot multiply V*A to get Watts with AC
[04:37:47] <zeeshan> so pf is 1/100..
[04:38:05] <CaptHindsight> http://www.rapidtables.com/electric/Power_Factor.htm
[04:38:24] <zeeshan> that seems very low!
[04:38:29] <pcw_home> a single phase fed VFD will have a poor power factor
[04:39:00] <zeeshan> okay so single phase is then 0.56~ pf
[04:39:04] <zeeshan> assuming 3 phase is 1.
[04:40:24] <zeeshan> thank u PCw
[04:40:28] <zeeshan> expert :D
[04:41:07] <CaptHindsight> http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/power-factor-calculator.htm
[04:41:26] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: thank you too :P
[04:41:29] <Valen> you probably could get a better PF through a vfd
[04:41:32] <Valen> but it'd cost more
[04:41:43] <zeeshan> pf correction
[04:46:37] <pcw_home> Yeah some power supplies do this with a pre-regulator that keeps the current in phase with the voltage
[04:47:03] <zeeshan> we used to sell power factor correction
[04:47:30] <zeeshan> equipment.. to hospitals and for industrial applications
[04:47:45] <zeeshan> i never knew that with 3 phase, the companies get owned for not having pf correction
[04:48:08] <zeeshan> their bill will be like 300,000$/mo, with 15-35% of the cost being pf penalties
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[07:50:00] <Deejay> moin
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[11:56:52] <jthornton> 19f this morning
[11:58:49] <skunkworks_> warmer here.. (21)
[11:58:52] <skunkworks_> :)
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[12:02:26] <jthornton> they are calling for snow for the weekend... yuck
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[12:46:43] <Tom_itx> 19蚌
[12:46:45] <Tom_itx> heat wave here
[12:51:36] <mk0> here, in greenland, yup ))
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[12:54:44] <PetefromTn_> Jeez man we are looking at a HIGH of 30 today here....
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[14:49:09] * Loetmichel just handed the ups delivery driver a packet... he nearly let it fall to the ground if i handt catched it... should i have said that there is a APC UPS in there? a 3kVA one? ;-)
[14:50:55] <Loetmichel> ... it was only 38kg... weakling working for UPS ;-)
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[14:54:04] <zeeshan> would the primary side of a vfd be considered a "non inductive/slighty inductive load"
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[14:54:08] <zeeshan> almost resistive? :P
[14:55:19] <Loetmichel> depends if its power factor correted or not
[14:55:25] <Loetmichel> if not its vastly capacitive
[14:55:38] <zeeshan> <- is trying to buy a contactor
[14:55:44] <zeeshan> but needs to know if i should go for ac1 rating or ac3
[14:55:48] <zeeshan> for my current
[14:57:30] <Loetmichel> derate resistive load by at least 50%ac3 or even
[14:57:36] <Loetmichel> or the contacts will burn
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[15:07:34] <zeeshan> http://www.ebay.com/itm/381048592984?_trksid=p2059210.m2748.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
[15:07:36] <zeeshan> bought that
[15:07:38] <zeeshan> its a little bit big
[15:07:41] <zeeshan> but will do the job
[15:09:48] <archivist> hmm are you switching a power station?
[15:09:57] <zeeshan> lol no
[15:10:00] <zeeshan> look at the ac3 rating of it
[15:10:04] <zeeshan> for 240v
[15:10:28] <zeeshan> 77A :P
[15:10:42] <zeeshan> i needed 60A-65A when compensating for power factor correction
[15:10:44] <zeeshan> on the VFD primary
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[15:18:29] <cradek> people have interesting feelings about software: http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/haas/hacking-hsm-haas-machines-294065/
[15:20:32] <zeeshan> lol
[15:20:35] <zeeshan> i like the last post
[15:20:44] <zeeshan> hahahah
[15:25:15] <CaptHindsight> it's interesting how the training from the music industry has most people thinking theft vs copyright or contract violation
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[15:26:08] <cradek> CaptHindsight: true
[15:26:57] <CaptHindsight> very funny post
[15:27:02] <cradek> CaptHindsight: people have all sorts of training that tells them they don't own things they buy
[15:27:07] <archivist> the pricing models of the sellers will get them a bad press too
[15:27:17] <zeeshan> let me clarify
[15:27:24] <zeeshan> are you guys pro "paying for software"
[15:27:26] <zeeshan> or against?
[15:27:53] <archivist> I sit on all 5 sides of the fence :)
[15:27:58] <zeeshan> hahah
[15:28:43] <zeeshan> student version of these software is so cheap
[15:28:51] <zeeshan> and almost anyone can get it :P
[15:29:02] <zeeshan> i don't understand why the need for haxin
[15:29:05] <CaptHindsight> are you guys pro "paying for software" or for killing puppies?
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[15:29:49] <archivist> zeeshan, lock in method, that is only available for real students/colleges etc
[15:30:10] <zeeshan> nahh
[15:30:20] <zeeshan> autodesk inventor is the easiest to get a student version for
[15:30:25] <archivist> company I worked for started a "training company"!
[15:30:39] <zeeshan> all you do is go to their website, put a university/college name
[15:30:43] <zeeshan> and put a botch student number
[15:30:51] <zeeshan> bam, inventor for like 80$
[15:30:51] <CaptHindsight> I wasn't aware that Haas sells features via unlock codes
[15:30:58] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: they do
[15:31:08] <zeeshan> same with fanuc
[15:31:18] <jdh> z: that is a license violation.
[15:31:26] <zeeshan> jdh too bad
[15:31:28] <zeeshan> i'm a student :)
[15:31:29] <CaptHindsight> are they the same vendor that has GPS built in so that the machine only works at the installed location?
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[15:31:37] * zeeshan is student for life
[15:31:45] <jdh> if you are going to do that, why not just get a haxq0red version. It is faster to download anyway
[15:32:04] <zeeshan> cause its way easier to get owned like that especially if youre in the US
[15:33:02] <CaptHindsight> they are selling and leasing cars now with remote kill switches, if you're too late on the payments the cars stops running
[15:33:14] <zeeshan> lol
[15:34:07] <zeeshan> man
[15:34:18] <zeeshan> im kinda a bit annoyed. the senior lab engineer says "it cant be done"
[15:34:33] <CaptHindsight> I should start selling the same for appliances
[15:34:34] <zeeshan> when it comes to using a different lens, to zoom closer to what i'm trying to measure
[15:34:57] <zeeshan> i go into the manual, and it clearly says you can measure down to a 15x20 mm measuring "Volume"
[15:35:04] <zeeshan> with +/- 4mm depth of field
[15:35:15] <CaptHindsight> late on the bill for the fridge, oops too bad, no cold food for you, or the TV, microwave etc etc
[15:36:59] <CaptHindsight> when will there be a push back?
[15:38:02] <mozmck> heh, you mean you're not beside yourself with excitement over IoT?
[15:38:11] <vapula> unless you buy a license to use a good/software, you're free to hack it around. However, you're never free to make copies, and you void your warranty, like with any other good
[15:38:49] <Rab> CaptHindsight, municipal utilities often aren't allowed to disconnect vital services under some circumstances.
[15:39:03] <vapula> if you buy a license to use a good/software, you're supposed to keep it in good shape
[15:40:52] <Rab> IMO it's just simpler to use free software, even when it's inferior to corresponding payware.
[15:43:27] <mozmck> that' what I do, and I suspect why a lot of people are using things like linuxcnc.
[15:45:29] <Rab> Ironically I have a paid Cadsoft Eagle license because it was the only realistic EDA option for a free OS 12+ years ago...now friends are trying to get me to use Kicad, but it's hard to give up the productivity.
[15:46:00] <Rab> Not a big fan of Kicad.
[15:46:23] <archivist> kicad seems to be gaining momentum
[15:46:45] <mozmck> productivity? My boss switched from Orcad to Kicad and has found it better in many respects - and he's used Orcad for years.
[15:47:50] <Rab> I would like to see Kicad improve and become more of a contender...recent trial didn't leave me wanting to switch.
[15:48:21] <skunkworks> wow - I have not heard orcad for years..
[15:48:31] <skunkworks> we had a demo in the early 90's
[15:48:32] <Rab> mozmck, EDA seems to be a very personal thing. A lot of people can't seem to figure Eagle out, for example.
[15:48:36] <mozmck> It's still around.
[15:48:51] <mozmck> I tried Eagle for a day and gave up when I found Kicad.
[15:48:56] <CaptHindsight> I've had Orcad since V1. Most vendors supply us with Orcad schematics. They were purchased by Cadence
[15:49:18] <jdh> the sparkfun eagle tutorial did wonders for me.
[15:49:19] <archivist> I used PCAD for years
[15:49:20] <mozmck> I have known several long time EDA guys who have switched to kicad.
[15:49:49] <mozmck> It has it's quirks, but it is much better than it used to be. The push and shove routing now is pretty nice.
[15:50:41] <mozmck> I'm not wild about the way it gets footprints from Github by default, but you can change that and install them locally.
[15:50:50] <Rab> Yeah, that's insane.
[15:51:43] <archivist> the other insanity is having outdated foot prints locally
[15:51:53] <archivist> you cannot win
[15:52:13] <CaptHindsight> Inetl/AMD/ TI etc still supply Orcad Capture and Spectra/Allegro PCB files with reference designs, sometimes I see Altium files
[15:52:15] <mozmck> heh! outdated doesn't matter if they are correct.
[15:52:22] <Rab> I assume there's got to be a way to make designs depend on a bundled local copy of footprints, so they don't break on other people's installations?
[15:53:03] <mozmck> When you install them locally you can update them any time you want from Github. It just doesn't do it every time you open the pcb editor.
[15:53:42] <Rab> mozmck, agreed...I don't trust anybody else's footprints by default, with Eagle or anything else.
[15:54:03] <mozmck> The footprints are saved in the pcb file.
[15:54:38] <CaptHindsight> can you import gerbers into Eagle or Kicad?
[15:54:54] <mozmck> You can actually get a pcb file and save footprints out of it if you don't have them in your local libraries.
[15:55:04] <Rab> CaptHindsight, not AFAIK.
[15:55:15] <mozmck> there is a gerber import in kicad - I've used it.
[15:55:51] <Rab> mozmck, does it generate nets from plotted paths? Or what?
[15:56:00] <mozmck> it was pretty helpful bringing an older board over I needed to retain some of the layout.
[15:56:19] <CaptHindsight> do you still have to match trace lengths manually?
[15:56:39] <mozmck> No net, just pcb.
[15:57:05] <mozmck> CaptHindsight: I *think* so - but I'm not sure. I've never had to do that yet.
[15:58:31] <CaptHindsight> somebody was talking about a 1.6GHz DDR3 layout and they matched them all manually
[15:58:37] <CaptHindsight> not my idea of fun
[15:58:52] <mozmck> sounds tedious!
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[16:11:05] <ssi> I like eagle; it was a learning curve, but once I really learned it well it's pretty good
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[16:15:33] <zeeshan> hey guys
[16:15:45] <zeeshan> i need to put 0.005" diameter dots
[16:15:49] <zeeshan> about 0.020" apart
[16:15:54] <zeeshan> white dots
[16:15:56] <zeeshan> what do you suggest?
[16:16:11] <jdh> cnc dot applique
[16:16:38] <zeeshan> hehe
[16:16:38] <cradek> how many times do you need to do it?
[16:16:46] <zeeshan> grid of them
[16:16:50] <zeeshan> over a 2"x2" span
[16:16:54] <cradek> eek
[16:16:58] <Rab> Mill dimples w/conical cutter, fill with paint?
[16:17:06] <cradek> that's not a bad idea
[16:17:08] <zeeshan> other option is using a speckle pattern
[16:17:12] <cradek> if it's very flat that might work
[16:17:16] <zeeshan> yes its very flat
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[16:17:25] <zeeshan> rab i was thinking of a stencil too
[16:17:34] <Rab> zeeshan, what material?
[16:17:39] <zeeshan> it just i think needs the extra hassle of cleaning it after
[16:17:47] <zeeshan> its a polymer
[16:17:53] <pcw_home> paint with white photo-resist
[16:17:56] <zeeshan> http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-V_6Zl8xRZZE/TygOEUyCZtI/AAAAAAAAAcU/fKVCc_7MJIE/s320/SpeckleInPlane.tiff
[16:18:02] <zeeshan> honestly a speckle pattern like this
[16:18:06] <pcw_home> expose to pattern/develop
[16:18:06] <zeeshan> (inverted so white dots)
[16:18:08] <zeeshan> would work really well too
[16:18:23] <zeeshan> PCW: EXCEllent
[16:18:35] <zeeshan> so basically photo etching
[16:18:36] <pcw_home> speckle spray paint?
[16:18:59] <zeeshan> pcw_home: the paint can i have seems to spray big dots
[16:19:04] <zeeshan> im thinking its something to do with the nozzle
[16:19:08] <zeeshan> and my technique
[16:19:09] <pcw_home> or industrial ink jet
[16:19:16] <Rab> zeeshan, what are the speckles for?
[16:19:32] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ZGgDoQz.png
[16:19:35] <zeeshan> notice the dimple? :P
[16:19:41] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/NhXnKsa.png
[16:20:01] <zeeshan> im trying to use aramis to pick up some changing dimples (my smp films are "self healing")
[16:20:07] <zeeshan> so i need to track the change over time
[16:20:14] <zeeshan> but if you look at the analysis
[16:20:18] <zeeshan> you can see missing parts
[16:20:29] <zeeshan> cause the software can't pick up the facets cause my pattern is too crappy
[16:20:53] <zeeshan> its a combination of pattern too crappy and not enough zoom i'm thinking
[16:21:20] <pcw_home> there are inkjet printers that can do this
[16:21:31] <pcw_home> (not cheap though)
[16:21:47] <zeeshan> even if i have to send out my samples to get em speckled
[16:21:49] <zeeshan> im willing to do that
[16:22:15] <zeeshan> i'm going to try to get a different nozzle
[16:22:25] <zeeshan> then if that fails, try photo paint
[16:22:38] <zeeshan> if that fails, same stencil with paint
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[16:23:32] <zeeshan> pcw_home: google isnt coming up with speckle ink jet
[16:25:20] <zeeshan> hey what about silk screening?
[16:25:26] <zeeshan> using the same stencil
[16:25:41] <Rab> That's stenciling.
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[16:26:00] <zeeshan> i havent seen the process before
[16:26:06] <zeeshan> looks like they just need a stencil?
[16:26:15] <Rab> You could use a silkscreen burned with your pattern, but since it's simple dots I think you might be better off with a stencil.
[16:26:29] <zeeshan> i like the idea of burning
[16:26:38] <zeeshan> that removes the possibility of the paint rubbing off during the test
[16:26:53] <Rab> By burned I mean photoexposed resist.
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[16:28:10] <Rab> Silkscreen uses resist on a fine mesh. Paint penetrates mesh but not resist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ssc.jpg
[16:29:19] <Rab> So it's inherently limited in resolution. Obviously there are high-resolution industrial silkscreening processes, eg PCB mask/silk.
[16:29:23] <[cube]> Laser printer on PnP blue as resist, 8.5x11 tiling pattern?
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[16:29:50] <zeeshan> i knew you guys would know some techniques
[16:29:54] <zeeshan> you pcb experts
[16:30:09] <zeeshan> when i got told "you can't do any better than a speckle spray can pattern"
[16:30:13] <zeeshan> i refused to believe that
[16:30:18] <dgarr> zeeshan: dots? halftones using conical cutter, depth controls diameter: http://www.panix.com/~dgarrett/phpv2/02-Halftones/
[16:30:23] <Rab> Yeah, that's a crock.
[16:30:51] <zeeshan> dgarr: i dont have a size perspective
[16:30:55] <zeeshan> how big is that wood part?
[16:30:56] <Rab> dgarr, neat!
[16:31:23] <dgarr> overall diam is about 3 in typ, larfest dot diam 0.040 typ
[16:31:46] <zeeshan> 1mm dots hmm
[16:31:53] <[cube]> if you wanna go budget, you could lay out a roll of dollar store rubber grip mat and spray paint over it
[16:31:54] <Rab> zeeshan, the governing question is, what's the minimum reliable penetration you can get with a conical cutter.
[16:32:17] <[cube]> http://images.esellerpro.com/2347/I/264/89/antislip%20mat.JPG
[16:32:24] <zeeshan> cube too big
[16:32:28] <zeeshan> the dots gotta be max 0.005"
[16:32:37] <[cube]> ah
[16:32:38] <zeeshan> 0.12mm
[16:33:03] <Rab> You could print out your pattern and poke holes in the paper with a pin. Use that as a paint stencil.
[16:33:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: how thick are they?
[16:33:17] <zeeshan> Rab: i bet if its sharp you can do consistent depth
[16:33:25] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: what do you mean
[16:33:28] <JT-Shop> dgarr that is amazing
[16:33:31] <Rab> Overhead transparency film prob give a cleaner result.
[16:33:41] <zeeshan> rab ROFL
[16:33:44] <zeeshan> thats an excellent idea
[16:33:57] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: photopolymer and a projector
[16:34:19] <Rab> dgarr, impressive that it's mapped consistently over a curved surface.
[16:35:25] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: how thick are the parts that you need to nark?
[16:35:36] <zeeshan> like .080"
[16:35:59] <CaptHindsight> how many parts?
[16:36:06] <zeeshan> not sure yet
[16:36:20] <CaptHindsight> ballpark 10, 100, 100k
[16:36:26] <zeeshan> 20
[16:36:30] <ssi> http://atlanta.craigslist.org/nat/bfs/4759412643.html
[16:36:31] <ssi> neat
[16:36:56] <CaptHindsight> photopolymer and dlp projector
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[16:37:02] <Rab> dgarr, is this your site? Really cool pieces!
[16:37:10] <jdh> ssi: we have tube straightners that look like huge versions of that. They are amazing to watch run
[16:37:45] <ssi> I bet
[16:38:15] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: coat the parts with a white photopolymer, then you project the pattern onto the surface, and then rinse away the uncured resin
[16:38:36] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight: what kind of company will have this equipment?
[16:38:50] <CaptHindsight> you can use any DLP projector
[16:39:17] <zeeshan> so i put this photopolymer on the surface
[16:39:23] <zeeshan> then basically send an image for a little while from a dlp projector
[16:39:33] <zeeshan> (speckle pattern maybe)
[16:39:36] <CaptHindsight> yes, you project for 2 seconds
[16:39:44] <zeeshan> hmm.. sounds simple :P
[16:39:54] <CaptHindsight> any pattern than you can put on the screen
[16:40:03] <CaptHindsight> the projector is a display
[16:40:04] <zeeshan> resolution is good as the dlp
[16:40:48] <CaptHindsight> yes, if it's a 1024 x 768 projector then you just divide the projected area by the pixel res
[16:42:01] <CaptHindsight> so 2" (50.8mm) / 1024 = 50microns per pixel
[16:42:42] <zeeshan> thats pretty damn good
[16:42:51] <CaptHindsight> your dots are ~127um
[16:43:13] <zeeshan> whats the name of a commonly used photopolymer?
[16:43:46] <CaptHindsight> I make them. I can send you some.
[16:43:55] <zeeshan> :D
[16:43:57] <CaptHindsight> you won't need much
[16:44:31] <zeeshan> let me try just simple nozzle change
[16:44:34] <zeeshan> and ill try your method next
[16:45:37] <CaptHindsight> or you could use a syringe and nozzle to dispense the drops
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[16:46:01] <CaptHindsight> then cure in sunlight
[16:46:34] <CaptHindsight> or led flashight <420nm
[16:47:23] <CaptHindsight> or a pneumatic valve and nozzle
[16:47:32] <JT-Shop> dgarr, I have a persimmon tree that didn't do so well this year. It measures 24" in circumference waist high. Is it big enough to do anything with?
[16:50:29] <roycroft> persimmon wood is awesome
[16:50:38] <roycroft> it's a beautiful wood, very dense, and really tough
[16:51:04] <roycroft> i would use it to make mallets and perhaps wooden plane bodies
[16:51:29] <roycroft> traditionally it was used for golf club heads
[16:54:27] <dgarr> JT-Shop: that is a good size, the problem is always getting it dry without splittting, i only make small stuff now days (largest dimension under 10 in)
[16:55:36] <JT-Shop> do you have a way to dry the green wood?
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[16:57:52] <JT-Shop> a medium flat rate box is 11" x 8 1/2" x 5 1/2"
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[16:58:05] <dgarr> no kiln, just process green cut wood immediately, cut out the pith, cut blocks to size, coat end grain with an endgrain sealer, take your chances
[16:59:46] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: since you are measuring distortion you could print a crosshatch over the entire surface, it would be easy to measure any change
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[17:01:31] <tjtr33> dgarr, those are beautiful. cnc? i found this http://www.halftone.com.br/
[17:02:16] * JT-Shop heads inside for some rabbit food
[17:05:26] <dgarr> tjtr33: i had not seen that site, but method is same, my machine is xzc and can apply on a curved surface, so a little different
[17:06:06] <tjtr33> are the holes drilled normal to the surface? do you use some software?
[17:07:48] <dgarr> not normal since it is only a 3 axis machine, but curvature is modest so it doesn't matter, i write the code: just drill depth proporional to dot diameter
[17:08:23] <tjtr33> i've done lithophanes, this looks a _lot_ quicker :) thanks!
[17:10:34] <ssi> got dacron stretched on the seat bottom frame last night
[17:10:35] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B2au4V3IQAAFHeu.jpg:large
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[17:14:10] <seb_kuzminsky> dgarr: hi, thanks for your work on jog no feed-override, can you please put it in 2.7 but not in 2.6?
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[17:23:41] <ReadError> hm crap
[17:23:52] <ReadError> is there a way to return to a previous touchoff?
[17:24:34] <Connor> You know the number ?
[17:25:11] <Connor> It would be nice if lcnc kept a touch-off history..
[17:25:15] <Connor> I've had that happen a few times.
[17:25:35] <Connor> have the wrong axis selected when you touch off.
[17:25:50] <Connor> typically happens with my Z because I'm having to raise and lower it..
[17:29:08] <ReadError> well basically, i re-touched off (was supposed to be z)
[17:29:13] <ReadError> but it was actually x
[17:29:21] <ReadError> ran, came back a mess ;9
[17:29:37] <ReadError> just hit some top clamps, not a big deal
[17:29:56] <ReadError> i can try to use the drill hole
[17:30:08] <ReadError> but was just wonderin if there was a better/easier way
[17:30:10] <Connor> Yup.. that's the exact thing I've done.
[17:30:13] * jthornton just made a touch off Z button so no mistooks can be made
[17:30:21] <seb_kuzminsky> ReadError: there's not currently a way to do that, sorry
[17:30:49] <Connor> You need to re-indicate using a edge finder if measurements are critical.
[17:30:59] <seb_kuzminsky> but it's a good idea, and if you wanted to open a feature request for it go here: http://sf.net/p/emc/feature-requests
[17:31:19] <ReadError> would be a lovely feature, its not the 1st time ive done it
[17:31:24] <seb_kuzminsky> this would be a GUI issue, so make sure to include in the feature request which GUI you're using
[17:31:25] <ReadError> probably wont be the last
[17:31:53] <Connor> I would love a /2 function too..
[17:32:10] <seb_kuzminsky> Connor: what do you mean?
[17:32:11] <Connor> so you can indicate on left side of part.. touch off.. indicate on right hand side of part...
[17:32:23] <Connor> then hit /2 function to get the center.
[17:32:27] <seb_kuzminsky> you can use math in the touch-off dialog
[17:32:46] <seb_kuzminsky> touch off X=0 on the left, go indicate the right, and touch off (whatever the DRO says)/2
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[17:33:00] <seb_kuzminsky> i use that all the time
[17:33:01] <Tom_itx> what happened to the machinists that use x y as a reference and did a bit of math?
[17:33:22] <Connor> Tom_itx: Nothing.. but.. time is money..
[17:34:18] <Tom_itx> it's not that difficult to know your block size and touch off one corner
[17:34:57] <Connor> I'm using a new method that increases the accuracy by x2 on finding the edge.
[17:35:00] <archivist> you often cannot get the vernier on to a part when in the machine
[17:35:37] <Connor> indicate on both sides, divide by 2. cut's the error down by 1/2
[17:36:08] <cradek> you can type an expression into the AXIS touch off box, so if you want /2 type /2
[17:36:28] <Connor> Didn't know that.
[17:36:29] <cradek> that way you don't need a special button for each possible divisor
[17:36:30] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/40-subroutines-and-ngcgui/18421-probe-for-center-of-material
[17:37:26] <Connor> Okay... looking for a good ball end mill.. .25" Will be running it in cast iron.. how many fliutes? Finish.. Brand ?
[17:37:28] <archivist> try touching off this :) http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2013/2013_08_11_bevel/IMG_1632.JPG
[17:37:45] <Rab> Tom_itx, it's difficult if your workpiece isn't flat. I've been engraving Hammond die-cast boxes, which are very poor tolerance-wise...often have to measure several different points on the lid and try to average, per-box.
[17:39:59] <Tom_itx> i can see that. we ran forgings alot and finding an average fixture location sometimes took a bit of thought
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[17:40:32] <archivist> I found the Z error by looking at the offset of the grooves on the part under a microscope
[17:41:24] <Connor> So, any recommendations on the ball endmill ?
[17:41:42] <Connor> Milling oil groves in my saddle
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[17:48:27] * SpeedEvil puts on some appropriate country and western.
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[17:51:19] <Loetmichel> *HA* operation: success! ... patient: lives! ... lets see how long that ecig lasts now... "2200mAh" (more like 1000mah) out, 2900mAh sony in... ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=15374&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[17:52:32] <ssi> lol nice
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[17:58:13] <t12> ecigs have become really popular here
[17:58:30] <t12> all the young programmers now stand in circles on the corners using them instead of cigs
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[18:03:48] <Loetmichel> its less dangerous to health for sure.
[18:03:59] <Loetmichel> and less annoying to the bystanders either
[18:04:02] <Loetmichel> and cheaper...
[18:04:22] <Loetmichel> and i am dowm from 18mg/ml nicotine to 6mg/ml nicotine in about a year
[18:04:37] <Loetmichel> another half and i can try to quit it altogether
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[18:06:34] <SpeedEvil> yeah - it makes ingesting nicotine go from about as dangerous as competitive motorbike racing to comparable with coffee
[18:07:04] <SpeedEvil> i'm almost at the point I'd class attempts to ban e-cigs as manslaughter.
[18:11:47] <jdh> why not just use patches
[18:12:04] <jdh> or get a insulin pump like thing to pump it straight in.
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[18:14:54] <Loetmichel> jdh: because patches dont work
[18:15:13] <Loetmichel> tried quitting with paches and "cold" multiple times
[18:15:22] <Loetmichel> only the e-cig did the trick.
[18:15:44] <Loetmichel> because most of the addictance is behavior, not real cold turkey
[18:16:11] <Loetmichel> and the e-cigs are simialr in use to real cigs, so you dont have to change bahaviour abruptly
[18:17:04] <Loetmichel> ... i still caught myself on the balcony with the ecig in one hand and alighter in the other multiple times the first weeks after switching ;-)
[18:17:06] <jdh> so your nicotine lowering isn't modifying your behaviour though
[18:17:43] <Loetmichel> you could say that
[18:17:57] <jdh> so, how fucking stupid do you have to be to be <40 or so and smoke?
[18:17:58] <Loetmichel> still its better than smoking the real thing ;-)
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[18:18:20] <Loetmichel> hmm, no idea, i smoke since 12, and am now 45
[18:19:00] <Connor> Okay... so, no one can recommend a good .250" Ball nose endmill for cast iron ? :(
[18:19:30] <jdh> Connor: pretty much any HSS?
[18:19:40] <jdh> why not 1/8" for an oil channel?
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[18:20:03] <Connor> jdh: Just going with what other's have used..
[18:20:13] <Connor> and I've heard the Cast Iron can be hard on endmills
[18:20:21] <Connor> or at least ball nose
[18:20:48] <jdh> I have only done the saddle on mine and it cut great
[18:21:02] <jdh> 0.5" flat mill though
[18:21:25] <jdh> you could do it with a knife or a scribe
[18:21:31] <Connor> jdh: Something about the way the bottom for the end mill works..
[18:21:41] <Connor> kinda scrapes instead of cuts..
[18:32:14] <_methods> gc1620 pluramill maybe
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[18:32:56] <_methods> http://www2.coromant.sandvik.com/coromant/pdf/Metalworking_Products_061/main_d_18.pdf
[18:33:13] <_methods> the gc1620 is for iso k materials
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[18:41:25] <Loetmichel> i know some bold people that are extremly boring
[18:41:40] <Loetmichel> dont know if it works the other way around
[18:43:34] <jdh> I ordered some cast iron last time I got some online metals stuff. I should try a few of mine.
[18:44:15] <jdh> 25% off orders $100 or more with code if anyone wants a code
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[18:47:57] * SpeedEvil suspects shipping may be an issue.
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[18:54:45] <jdh> it's not too bad for me.
[18:54:48] <jdh> and pretty speedy
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[19:03:43] <SpeedEvil> yeah - UK
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[19:41:58] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, what are the rules inside HAL files for in/out? It seems that from what perspective they are in or out changes depending on the context.
[19:42:22] <LeelooMinai> For example: http://i.imgur.com/5nF74sg.png
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[19:44:41] <LeelooMinai> Seems like OUT there means "out of the component", right?
[19:44:49] <cradek> right
[19:45:03] <cradek> out of the component, to "halspace"
[19:45:19] <cradek> input-14 is the name of a wire or a screw or something on the hardware
[19:46:22] <LeelooMinai> Ok, also what are entries that look like [AXIS_1]DIRSETUP ? Are they going to be replaced by the GUI or something?
[19:47:04] <LeelooMinai> (they are inside my hal file)
[19:47:45] <LeelooMinai> Here's how they look: http://i.imgur.com/B0US7rI.png
[19:48:00] <cradek> that syntax means get the value from the ini file
[19:48:48] <LeelooMinai> What's the purpose of this separation?
[19:49:26] <cradek> some people like all the configurable tuning constants in the ini file
[19:49:49] <LeelooMinai> a, I see, so hal would describe non-changing hardware?
[19:50:35] <cradek> I'm not qualified to say how people like to use it
[19:52:17] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, my guess is that hal is supposed to be a "model" of all the hardware wired together, and ini file a way to adjust parameters for components
[19:52:37] <cradek> that's plausible
[19:53:05] <LeelooMinai> Ok, thx, I can roll forward then:)
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[21:39:21] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:43:37] <zeeshan> CaptHindsight you there?
[22:45:37] <CaptHindsight> http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/11/13/flux-3d-printer-kickstarter/ heh it has a milling head module
[22:46:06] <CaptHindsight> now you can mill sour cream with <1" precision!
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[22:53:30] <andypugh> Not _too_ sour, though :-)
[22:54:28] <CaptHindsight> why didn't I ever think of using magnets to hold my spindle?
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[22:56:50] <CaptHindsight> zeeshan: I'm about to be gone
[22:57:39] <andypugh> Keith Fenner is selling a magnetic widget for holding a plasma torch. But thats a genuinely good idea.
[23:00:04] <andypugh> Looking at it, I really like the magnet/ball joints on the Flux. Thats a clever idea. But perhaps not for milling.
[23:02:58] <Tom_itx> magnets hold the surface keyboard & charge plug in place
[23:03:25] <zeeshan> capta we'll talk later
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[23:33:44] <Rab> The magnets are clever, but they aren't bearing surfaces. I'm skeptical of any serious longevity.
[23:35:25] <Rab> Reminds me of the sort of audacious flourish you see from design students who missed out on materials science.
[23:37:11] <Rab> Like that recent cartesian 3D printer which cantilevered all the axes through a series of hobby servo shafts.
[23:41:20] <JT-Shop> so if you hit a pop up with the plasma it just falls off
[23:51:43] <JT-Shop> LeelooMinai, http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/basic_hal.html
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