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[00:10:14] <Computer_Barf1> is it certain that Kflop can't be used with linuxcnc?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYKdF5R53e0
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[00:18:34] <Connor_iPad> Computer_Barf1: Why bother? Just use Mesa.
[00:19:21] <Computer_Barf1> seemed like it had more axis possiblities, more encoder stuff, more stuff.
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[00:19:31] <Computer_Barf1> just looking at all options
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[00:20:09] <Connor_iPad> You need to look at all the Mesa products.
[00:20:20] <Connor_iPad> Way more flexible.
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[02:18:43] <ve7it> Jymmm, latest cnc/fishing project
http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/cannon-ball.html
[02:19:16] <ssi> yawn
[02:19:16] <the_wench> wake up ssi
[02:19:27] <Jymmm> ve7it: Looking...
[02:21:02] <Jymmm> ve7it: Nice. Going to use them to run a longwire antenna up on a tree =)
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[02:22:03] <ve7it> I would like to see the sling shot to fire those
[02:22:26] <Jymmm> ve7it: HAHAHAHA, Built it, and they will fly!
[02:22:30] <ve7it> (more like running a long wire down to some cod fish!)
[02:22:44] <Jymmm> ve7it: Ah, VLF
[02:23:01] <ve7it> how have you been?
[02:23:43] <Jymmm> ve7it: Pretty good, picked up a MFJ versatuner, still haven't gotten on the air yet =)
[02:24:28] <ve7it> 10m has been hot.... listened to Malaysia this afternoon
[02:25:21] <ve7it> Japan, Alaska, down the west coast and a lot of the midwest was booming in
[02:25:48] <Jymmm> ve7it: Nice, just haven't had time to setup/run everything. I probably should before solar flares knock out HF for years
[02:26:36] <Jymmm> ve7it: Actually I want the new toy coming out soon
[02:27:14] <Jymmm> ve7it:
http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/hamhf/3991.html
[02:27:44] <ve7it> The smoke escaped out of my Icom 781.... was just listening and I saw blue arc light on the wall behind the rig... hit the off button... still too afraid to take the covers off and see what cooked... it should be very obvious
[02:27:45] <Jymmm> ve7it: Was 2014Q4, then they changed it to 2015Q1
[02:28:19] <Jymmm> ve7it: OUCH, that's never a good thing. especially Rx only too.
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[02:29:16] <ve7it> looks nice, but I am partial to Icom and Kenwood..... my brain just doesnt mesh with the Yaesu menus and modes
[02:29:46] <ve7it> any idea on $$$
[02:30:06] <Jymmm> ve7it: LOL, Well it's the replacement for the 897D, and I lie the mobil/portable idea plus builtin ATU and bandscope
[02:30:27] <Jymmm> ve7it: Yeah. MSRP $2400
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[02:30:48] <Jymmm> USD
[02:31:04] <ve7it> ouch
[02:31:28] <Jymmm> ve7it: Tell me about it, but that's still rumor, we'll see.
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[02:32:33] <Jymmm> ve7it: If so, it'l probably be my first and last HF rig I'll buy off the shelfs
[02:33:09] <ve7it> looks like USB and serial port interfaces... cool, somebody is finally getting modern..... now bluetooth to a tablet interface would be cool
[02:33:27] <Jymmm> ve7it: It has a touchscreen already
[02:34:13] <Jymmm> ve7it: I had been waiting for the USB though, should be nice for CAT
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[02:35:03] <ve7it> hey... just got the dinner call... catch ya later
[02:35:12] <Jymmm> ve7it: 73
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[03:05:52] <zeeshan|2> hi
[03:05:58] <zeeshan|2> ssi: wake up :D
[03:07:13] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15536209378/
[03:07:15] <zeeshan|2> its mounted :D
[03:07:20] <ssi> good
[03:07:33] <zeeshan|2> where you been dude
[03:07:36] <zeeshan|2> i know youre done moving
[03:07:38] <zeeshan|2> you beter be done moving
[03:07:41] <zeeshan|2> youve been moving for a month
[03:07:48] <ssi> still plenty of work to do
[03:07:57] <zeeshan|2> damn
[03:07:58] <ssi> trying to get crap shuffled around and machines placed
[03:09:22] <zeeshan|2> are you almost done?
[03:09:41] <ssi> hahahahah no
[03:09:49] <ssi> it'll be the rest of the year before I'm done
[03:10:43] <zeeshan|2> =/
[03:10:48] <zeeshan|2> i want you back to cnc mode :(
[03:10:52] <ssi> tryin
[03:11:08] <zeeshan|2> every night i'm stuck talking to XXCoder
[03:11:09] * zeeshan|2 hides
[03:11:12] <ssi> haha
[03:11:12] <zeeshan|2> i joke XXCoder
[03:11:24] <ssi> I've been freakin exhausted every night
[03:11:27] <ssi> I probably would be asleep already
[03:11:33] <ssi> but I've been reading online about gold recovery
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[03:13:46] <zeeshan|2> trying to recover gold from pcb circuit boards? :D
[03:14:07] <ssi> all the wirewrap pins and pcb board-to-board pins from the HNC control are gold plated
[03:14:10] <ssi> and there's a PILE of them
[03:14:31] <zeeshan|2> they really didnt f around with electronics back then eh
[03:14:37] <ssi> nope!
[03:14:40] <zeeshan|2> lets make this pin out of SOLID GOLD!
[03:14:43] <jdh> cheap gold!
[03:14:44] <ssi> well gold was $35/oz then
[03:14:56] <zeeshan|2> well if you prolly account fo rinflation
[03:15:02] <zeeshan|2> it was prolly more expensive than say silver
[03:15:03] <zeeshan|2> and aluminum
[03:15:05] <zeeshan|2> a lot more
[03:15:36] <Tom_itx> always has been
[03:15:46] <zeeshan|2> lies
[03:15:48] <XXCoder> lol
[03:15:55] <zeeshan|2> i thought silver was more expensive back in the day
[03:16:02] <zeeshan|2> 1000 years ago
[03:16:08] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: i was kidding
[03:16:09] <zeeshan|2> :{
[03:16:13] <CaptHindsight> probably less than a few microns thick
[03:16:37] <zeeshan|2> i cant decide
[03:16:39] <zeeshan|2> fans on bottom
[03:16:45] <zeeshan|2> or fans on top (suck mode)
[03:17:32] <XXCoder> pfft not even plantium is most expensive element
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[03:18:10] <XXCoder> and yes at certain era, aluminium was actually more expensive than gold
[03:18:26] <XXCoder> it was very hard to make. then someone invented easy and cheap way
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[03:30:00] <Tom_itx> so it was:
http://knowledgenuts.com/2014/02/27/the-metal-that-was-once-worth-more-than-gold/
[03:30:42] <XXCoder> yeah it sure explains old formerly very expensive stuff like tea pot and cups
[03:30:44] <XXCoder> alum ones
[03:31:15] <zeeshan|2> http://galleryplus.ebayimg.com/ws/web/310374223620_1_0_1/1000x1000.jpg
[03:31:18] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[03:31:23] <zeeshan|2> anyone uese these connectors before
[03:31:29] <XXCoder> ironic eh. I throw enough into scrap today then annual alum extraction then
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[03:32:13] <XXCoder> and mis-sized 5" alum rod thrown in scrap would cause someone who knows in that era to piss pants
[03:32:14] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2 i've got one on my power supply
[03:32:22] <zeeshan|2> can you buy one of those
[03:32:24] <zeeshan|2> prewired?
[03:32:48] <zeeshan|2> i think im searching for the wrong term
[03:33:17] <Tom_itx> i got mine locally and use a pc cord on it
[03:33:24] <Tom_itx> the male end i got locally)
[03:35:11] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: that looks like standard pc connector
[03:35:16] <XXCoder> power
[03:35:25] <XXCoder> might be bit different dunno
[03:35:35] <Tom_itx> i doubt it
[03:36:07] <zeeshan|2> hm
[03:36:43] <zeeshan|2> ssi: HI!
[03:37:13] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: so you basically wired
[03:37:16] <zeeshan|2> your own wires to that connector?
[03:38:03] <Tom_itx> no, i mounted the make receptacle to the control box
[03:38:18] <jdh> It's almost lathe season
[03:38:35] <XXCoder> good hunting
[03:38:38] <Tom_itx> when is it not lathe season?
[03:38:52] <zeeshan|2> jdh: whats the executive plan?
[03:39:20] <ssi> wat
[03:39:23] <jdh> http://www.hobby-machinist.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=84338&d=1411572347
[03:39:25] <zeeshan|2> ssi i wanted to confirm something
[03:39:28] <ssi> ok
[03:39:30] <zeeshan|2> cause i need to buy connectors
[03:39:30] <jdh> that... if you can see the pic
[03:39:46] <Rab> zeeshan|2, look for 'right angle iec cord'. IEC is the name of the standard, not of that particular connector, but it should work.
[03:39:55] <zeeshan|2> i'll have 3 signals going into the servo drive? 1 pin @ tach in, 1@ anallog + and 1@ analog-
[03:40:03] <zeeshan|2> (btw can 7i77 output differential analog??)
[03:40:08] <ssi> yes it ca
[03:40:14] <ssi> you also will have the enable signals
[03:40:18] <ssi> which is a differential pair
[03:40:18] <zeeshan|2> oh shit
[03:40:24] <zeeshan|2> so another 2 wires
[03:40:30] <zeeshan|2> ALL of them need to be shielded?
[03:40:43] <ssi> how long is your run?
[03:40:54] <zeeshan|2> im estimating 10 feet per axis?
[03:40:56] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_60320
[03:41:01] <Tom_itx> zeeshan|2
[03:41:03] <zeeshan|2> er
[03:41:04] <ssi> between the 7i77 and the drives?
[03:41:06] <zeeshan|2> 10 feet is the servo.
[03:41:14] <zeeshan|2> between 7i77 and drives is about 3 f eet
[03:41:22] <ssi> couldn't hurt
[03:41:38] <XXCoder> "Very common on personal computers and peripherals." yep
[03:41:39] <ssi> the tach line should be
[03:41:43] <ssi> the analog ref line should be
[03:41:43] <XXCoder> c13
[03:41:47] <ssi> enable probably doesn't matter
[03:41:50] <zeeshan|2> dude
[03:41:54] <zeeshan|2> how come theres in i2t pin?
[03:41:57] <zeeshan|2> in = no
[03:42:04] <zeeshan|2> how does it check for motor thermal
[03:42:54] <ssi> I dunno
[03:42:56] <ssi> I gotta sleep
[03:42:58] <ssi> be on tomorrow
[03:42:58] <zeeshan|2> oki
[03:43:00] <zeeshan|2> cu
[03:43:26] <zeeshan|2> rab when i search for that
[03:43:32] <zeeshan|2> i get the other kind of 90 degree connectors
[03:43:47] <XXCoder> what's wrong with 270 degree
[03:43:49] <Rab> Going left/right instead of up/down?
[03:43:53] <zeeshan|2> yes
[03:43:56] <zeeshan|2> exactly
[03:44:03] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: it's not ideal for my wiring application
[03:44:12] <XXCoder> heh was kidding
[03:44:27] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15536209378/
[03:44:32] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15516339999/
[03:44:35] <zeeshan|2> not where power connector goes
[03:44:52] <zeeshan|2> if it goes 90 deg left right
[03:44:56] <zeeshan|2> it'll be really annoying to install
[03:45:00] <zeeshan|2> it'll hit the white base plate
[03:45:00] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XC14+socket&_nkw=C14+socket&_sacat=0
[03:45:03] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/itm/IEC-320-C13-Down-angled-rewirable-plug-C13-plug-female-UL-approved-plug-/251547063474?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a915f94b2
[03:45:47] <zeeshan|2> hm
[03:45:49] <zeeshan|2> i like that second link
[03:45:54] <Rab> The rewirable plugs look great to me. If quarters are that tight, you want your cables custom length anyway.
[03:46:13] <zeeshan|2> yea
[03:46:16] <zeeshan|2> but the problem im thinking is
[03:46:19] <zeeshan|2> will my 12awg cable fit
[03:46:19] <Tom_itx> also:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/IEC-C13-right-angle-rewirable-connector-C13-plug-ULlist-/260786719331?pt=Laptop_Adapters_Chargers&hash=item3cb8198a63
[03:46:25] <Tom_itx> right angle
[03:46:32] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: that one ownt work
[03:46:37] <zeeshan|2> that aims the wire towards the white board
[03:46:42] <Tom_itx> mkay
[03:46:45] <zeeshan|2> i dont know what people call that white plate
[03:46:49] <zeeshan|2> back plate?
[03:46:58] <Rab> Do you really need 12AWG cable?
[03:47:02] <Jymmm> Do realize that MOST IEC connectors are not rated for more than 4Amps
[03:47:10] * skunkworks is wondering the same thing...
[03:47:10] <zeeshan|2> Rab: this is where the bloody confusion is
[03:47:16] <zeeshan|2> i contacted amc
[03:47:27] <zeeshan|2> their specs says they're using that iec60320 c14 standard
[03:47:37] <zeeshan|2> standard according to wiki says 10A rating.
[03:47:41] <zeeshan|2> the bus fuse is 16A on the drive
[03:47:45] <zeeshan|2> tell me how that works?
[03:48:06] <Jymmm> Heh, it took me to years to find a 15A IEC rated power cord.
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[03:48:14] <Jymmm> two*
[03:48:21] <zeeshan|2> apparently this thing requires 2256W continuous
[03:48:38] <zeeshan|2> which works out to 18-19A at 120VAC
[03:48:42] <zeeshan|2> which again makes no sense.
[03:48:43] <Rab> Maybe the standard provides for 10A sustained, and the 16A fuse is rated for peak or inrush current.
[03:48:54] <zeeshan|2> hm
[03:48:56] <pcw_home> The bus fuse is just to avoid fireworks if the power semiconductors short
[03:49:19] <Rab> zeeshan|2, AMC is the VFD? Or the servo drive?
[03:49:23] <zeeshan|2> servo drive
[03:49:24] <zeeshan|2> http://www.a-m-c.com/download/datasheet/be25a20ac.pdf
[03:49:25] <zeeshan|2> page 3
[03:49:31] <zeeshan|2> look at "maximum continuous power"
[03:49:35] <Jymmm> The connector is rated 10A plus, but the cords are not (premolded)
[03:49:59] <zeeshan|2> Jymmm: ive seen 12awg and 14awg cables in that style
[03:50:02] <Jymmm> I've also seen where the ones witht he built in emi/rfi filter are way under rated.
[03:50:47] <zeeshan|2> that spec sheet also shows bus fuse size too
[03:50:47] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: Sure, but actually LOOK at the rating on the cables AND connectors of the cord =)
[03:51:00] <Rab> I wonder how legit the chinese eBay connectors are for, say, 10A.
[03:51:05] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: they dont all match =)
[03:51:10] <zeeshan|2> Jymmm: yea dude
[03:51:14] <zeeshan|2> connector is rated for 10A only.
[03:51:20] <zeeshan|2> im telling you
[03:51:21] <XXCoder> is chinese stuff rated for anything?
[03:51:21] <zeeshan|2> i called amc
[03:51:25] <zeeshan|2> i was on the phone for 25 min
[03:51:26] <skunkworks> 14awg sounds about right
[03:51:31] <zeeshan|2> no one can figure out why they've got a c14 connector on there
[03:51:35] <Rab> I won't buy any electrical fittings from Harbor Fright.
[03:51:36] <zeeshan|2> when the bus fuse is rated to 16A
[03:51:58] <pcw_home> The bus fuse is just to avoid fireworks if the power semiconductors short #2
[03:52:04] <Jymmm> zeeshan|2: Don't get your IEC panties get in a bunch now =)
[03:52:10] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home so what size cable do i run
[03:52:15] <zeeshan|2> what upstream protection do i need?
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[03:52:28] <zeeshan|2> how can a c14 connector possibly take more current than 10A?
[03:52:32] <pcw_home> 18 ga should be fine
[03:52:40] <pcw_home> 10A is fine
[03:52:59] <skunkworks> do you think the plug burns up with anything over 10a?
[03:53:03] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: if i put 10A cable, that means 120*10A = 1200W
[03:53:16] <zeeshan|2> which is much less than the 2256 W continuous output
[03:53:18] <zeeshan|2> on the spec sheet..
[03:53:35] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: i highly doubt it
[03:53:35] <pcw_home> 2256 w means nothing the just multiplied the max DC voltage by the max current
[03:54:10] <pcw_home> I doubt if you will draw more that 1A average
[03:54:22] <zeeshan|2> 190V (max voltage) * 12.5A (max peak current) = 2375 W
[03:54:23] <zeeshan|2> roughly
[03:54:28] <Rab> I see 12.5A @ 30-125VAC, which isn't 2256W.
[03:54:33] <zeeshan|2> rab no
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[03:54:39] <zeeshan|2> its 12.5A @ 195VDC
[03:54:48] <pcw_home> right so meaningless
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[03:55:17] <pcw_home> a 10A cable is more than enough
[03:55:23] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: my x motor is rated for 2.17kW
[03:55:40] <Rab> Maybe you should calculate how much your motor will actually draw in operation.
[03:55:40] <zeeshan|2> so wouldn't i be underdriving it by allowing it to only see 1200W?
[03:55:44] <pcw_home> continuous?
[03:55:46] <skunkworks> are you going to be running that continuous?
[03:55:49] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/14912262293/
[03:55:59] <Tom_itx> you plan on stalling it alot?
[03:56:05] <zeeshan|2> i'm not sure if thats a continuous rating or peak
[03:56:11] <zeeshan|2> im assuming continuous
[03:56:21] <zeeshan|2> its about 50lb
[03:56:32] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: i h ope not
[03:56:44] <zeeshan|2> but i definitely dont want to be stalling it because it's underpowered
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[03:57:09] <pcw_home> So those drives are a bit small for that motor
[03:57:24] <zeeshan|2> amc gave me a part number for a cable they recommend
[03:57:31] <zeeshan|2> when i look up that cable on digikey, its a 14AWG cable
[03:57:41] <zeeshan|2> so i think they're overpowering the c14 connector
[03:57:43] <zeeshan|2> to 15A.
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[03:58:07] <zeeshan|2> 15A*120 = 1800W
[03:58:12] <zeeshan|2> which is closer to the rating i need...
[03:58:25] <Rab> Maybe "2256W continuous" is very optimistic.
[03:58:26] <Tom_itx> look at the cord they put on 1500w heaters, hairdryers etc
[03:58:42] <zeeshan|2> Tom_itx: my 1500W heater has a tiny cord
[03:58:43] <zeeshan|2> lol
[03:58:48] <zeeshan|2> its so warm to touch when it's running
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[03:59:25] <pcw_home> A drive that matched that motor would likely have a bigger cord
[03:59:29] <XXCoder> all heaters is basically just longass resistor
[03:59:43] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home, amc themself said this is the correct drive
[03:59:45] <zeeshan|2> for my application
[04:00:06] <pcw_home> its small for X
[04:00:15] <zeeshan|2> thats my Z motor
[04:00:29] <zeeshan|2> X and Y are both 1.18kW
[04:00:43] <zeeshan|2> theyre supposed to draw 7.5A at 190v..
[04:00:53] <pcw_home> So for Z a bigger drive would be better
[04:01:18] <zeeshan|2> anyone wanna trade? :-)
[04:01:36] <pcw_home> you usually want about 3 to 4x the cont current rating for peak current
[04:01:54] <zeeshan|2> so even for X and Y
[04:01:57] <zeeshan|2> it's too small..
[04:02:00] <zeeshan|2> is what you're saying :(
[04:02:09] <pcw_home> its very close to right for X and Y
[04:03:13] <zeeshan|2> okay im looking at the next model up
[04:03:16] <zeeshan|2> b40A40Ac
[04:03:22] <zeeshan|2> its got a real connector.. pin pads!
[04:03:43] <zeeshan|2> 7600 continuous output power
[04:03:58] <skunkworks> that is what we use in our k&t..\
[04:04:06] <pcw_home> those drives can supply between 3x and 4x continuous the X,Y (7.5A) current rating
[04:04:06] <skunkworks> and you can't have our extras...
[04:04:17] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: trade!
[04:04:20] <pcw_home> so are fine for X,Y but a bit small for Z
[04:04:36] <zeeshan|2> so do you think i should just run the 14AWG
[04:04:43] <zeeshan|2> even though that means ill be pushing 15A through a connector rated for 10A
[04:04:54] <zeeshan|2> i mean thats exactly what theyre telling me to do :(
[04:05:00] <pcw_home> and you notice that the power cord rating is OK for ~1KW
[04:05:18] <zeeshan|2> which one the 14awg?
[04:05:22] <zeeshan|2> 1.8kW
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[04:05:46] <zeeshan|2> Qualtek P/N: 312019-01
[04:05:48] <zeeshan|2> is the part number they gave me
[04:05:55] <zeeshan|2> NEMA 5-15P to IEC 60320-C13 (Example: Qualtek P/N: 312019-01)
[04:06:26] <pcw_home> Also unless you are pushing things really hard, I doubt you can get more than a few amps of line current/drive
[04:06:48] <zeeshan|2> i'd like to eat aluminum at 100ipm .25 doc
[04:06:49] <zeeshan|2> :P
[04:07:11] <zeeshan|2> something to note
[04:07:19] <zeeshan|2> X and Y axis are 3:1
[04:07:26] <zeeshan|2> and Z axis is i believe 5:1
[04:07:29] <zeeshan|2> might be 5.5:1
[04:07:41] <zeeshan|2> so its a crap load of torque
[04:09:13] <pcw_home> what rapids speed can those motors do?
[04:09:36] <zeeshan|2> the factory spec sheet said 250 ipm rapid for X and Y
[04:09:39] <zeeshan|2> and 200 for Z
[04:10:46] <zeeshan|2> i think ill just underdrive it a bit
[04:10:50] <zeeshan|2> and slow down the rapid
[04:11:09] <zeeshan|2> like if a motor spec says 13.6A
[04:11:30] <pcw_home> which means for X and Y when machining at 100 IPM about 7A is the most you can have as continuous primary current
[04:11:32] <zeeshan|2> wouldn't it be better to shoot for 12A anyway? to leave some room away from heating
[04:11:58] <zeeshan|2> *overheating the motor
[04:12:33] <pcw_home> having a lower current rating on the drive will limit acceleration, not speed
[04:12:45] <zeeshan|2> ahh
[04:13:03] <Connor> pcw_home: I'm running my mill on steppers.. I'm thinking of adding a encoder and switching to closed loop and running the steppers in velocity mode. Using the 7i76, I would add the 7i85
[04:13:05] <pcw_home> torque is directly proportional to current
[04:13:40] <Connor> Two questions: What's the diff between the 7i85 and 7i85S, and.. any documentation on HAL configuration for a setup like that ?
[04:14:26] <skunkworks> zeeshan|2: have you done the math to see what kind of cutting force you have with the torque you have available? I bet it is huge..
[04:14:26] <pcw_home> You can do that, there is not too much advantage except instant knowledge of stalls
[04:14:42] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: roughly
[04:14:52] <zeeshan|2> i think i got like ~100 ipm @ .25DOC
[04:15:02] <zeeshan|2> with wnmg inserts
[04:15:07] <zeeshan|2> 2" face mill
[04:15:23] <pcw_home> They probably scaled the Z axis motor to get matching accel capabilities
[04:15:50] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: so basically since i already have these motors
[04:15:54] <zeeshan|2> and drives..
[04:15:56] <zeeshan|2> i think ill try it out
[04:16:02] <zeeshan|2> if it causes issues, ill upgrade the Z drive
[04:16:06] <zeeshan|2> or just slow things down
[04:16:11] <zeeshan|2> no need to be macho man machining
[04:17:06] <skunkworks> iirc the K&T has a force of about 8tons on all axis.
[04:17:15] <zeeshan|2> hahaha
[04:17:17] <zeeshan|2> that's insane
[04:17:20] <skunkworks> don't make a mistake...
[04:17:37] <skunkworks> that is peak..
[04:17:47] <pcw_home> I suspect it will be beefy enough unless you are really pushing it
[04:17:49] <pcw_home> (and you can look for a b40A40Ac at your leisure)
[04:17:59] <zeeshan|2> i ebayed b40a40ac
[04:18:03] <zeeshan|2> non available, they're 999 new!
[04:19:04] <pcw_home> well a 2KW drive is 6 to 8 KW peak so pretty big
[04:19:16] <zeeshan|2> its double in width of my current drive
[04:19:21] <zeeshan|2> and 1" longer in length
[04:19:22] <zeeshan|2> about same height
[04:20:31] <zeeshan|2> http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/312019-01/Q353-ND/1164224
[04:20:40] <zeeshan|2> its really interesting to note that cable they recommend
[04:20:55] <zeeshan|2> has a current rating of 15A yet still uses a c13 connector lol
[04:21:54] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/moreelec.jpg
[04:22:14] <zeeshan|2> b40s?
[04:23:22] <zeeshan|2> btw guys its called a "Down angle" connector
[04:23:24] <zeeshan|2> not righht angle
[04:24:26] <skunkworks> be40
[04:24:43] <zeeshan|2> that cabinet is huge
[04:24:51] <zeeshan|2> is that for the k&t?
[04:25:14] <skunkworks> yes - messy now..
http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/panel/electricalbox.jpg
[04:25:30] <zeeshan|2> thats a lot going on :)
[04:25:38] <zeeshan|2> what are those big ceramic resistors for?
[04:25:44] <zeeshan|2> dc brake?
[04:25:53] <skunkworks> spindle braking
[04:26:46] <zeeshan|2> is that a be25a20ac on the bottom
[04:26:48] <zeeshan|2> sitting by itself
[04:27:11] <skunkworks> something close to that.. does the table rotation
[04:27:25] <zeeshan|2> okay cause damn that gives a size perspective
[04:28:18] <zeeshan|2> im looking at your power distribution
[04:28:25] <zeeshan|2> (that is what im currently working on)
[04:28:37] <zeeshan|2> it looks like youre going from 3AWG main
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[04:28:42] <zeeshan|2> to a distribution block
[04:28:51] -!- JT-Shop has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[04:29:01] <zeeshan|2> and you have smaller size wires going to each contactor (not fused?)
[04:32:16] <Rab> zeeshan|2, haha, might want to differentiate between up-angle (UA) and down-angle (DA).
[04:32:25] <zeeshan|2> Rab: yessir :P
[04:33:30] <Rab> I actually found a name-brand mfg of UA/DA cables, APC. Their models are 18/3 and rated for 10A/125V.
[04:33:50] <zeeshan|2> any in 14awg? :{
[04:34:05] <zeeshan|2> even if i can find a down angle connector
[04:34:13] <zeeshan|2> and provide it my own cable
[04:34:17] <Rab> Strange, from their catalog it seems like they rate the connector itself for 10A (inline plug) and 15A (inline socket).
[04:34:17] <zeeshan|2> i'll be happy with that..
[04:34:22] <skunkworks> there is a drop down transformer that drops the voltage down to the drives from 220 irrc
[04:34:23] <zeeshan|2> as long as it's made by someone reputable
[04:34:44] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: i understand
[04:34:47] <zeeshan|2> im talking about the contactors
[04:34:59] <zeeshan|2> it seems like your main disconnect switch has 3 awg wires going to it
[04:35:11] <zeeshan|2> and then a while bunchof small wires coming out of them, with no breakers of fuse protection in between
[04:35:23] <skunkworks> it is big because it used to run a 40hp hydraulic motor...
[04:35:26] <Rab> They have RA cables that are 14/3 rated 15A/250V.
[04:35:32] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: oh
[04:35:41] <zeeshan|2> Rab: exactly!
[04:35:49] <zeeshan|2> i think that iec 60320-c13 standard is prolly b/s
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[04:35:59] <zeeshan|2> all these guys seem to overdrive it to 15A
[04:36:03] <zeeshan|2> since it "works"
[04:36:09] <skunkworks> it is now breakered a lot less - and the wiring in box is smaller.
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[04:36:30] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: i currently was thinking of having a breaker panel outside of my control cabinet
[04:36:41] <zeeshan|2> the enclosure stuff looks so bulk..
[04:36:47] <zeeshan|2> *bulky, i dont like how it looks
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[04:37:15] <skunkworks> as you can see by our cabinet.. we don't care how it looks.. :)
[04:37:27] <zeeshan|2> my original plan was 3awg cable to a main disconnect switch and then from disconnect switch, smaller wires to each branch circuit (through a fuse)
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[04:37:43] <zeeshan|2> but i got yelled at in here because i was told the wires between the disconnect and fuse holder would be "unfused"
[04:37:45] <zeeshan|2> and potential hazard
[04:37:51] <zeeshan|2> which is true
[04:38:25] <zeeshan|2> theres gotta be a clean way to add fuse protection without making is a hazard
[04:38:29] <zeeshan|2> and not using a big ass bus bar
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[04:39:15] <skunkworks> automotive in-line fuses..
[04:39:18] <skunkworks> ;)
[04:39:25] <Rab> http://www.quail.com/C-1196/Part-Matrix-Choose-Equipment-End-.aspx?lc=true&1196=SQBFAEMALQA2ADAAMwAyADAALQBDADEAMwAgAEQATwBXAE4AIABBAE4ARwBMAEUA
[04:39:32] <zeeshan|2> skunkworks: lol
[04:40:02] <zeeshan|2> nice rab
[04:40:03] <zeeshan|2> thats it
[04:40:06] <Rab> Bingo:
http://www.quail.com/P-4931.072/Power-Cord--Quail-Pn-4931072--6-143-Sjtw-105c-Black-Nacc-Nema-515p-To-Iec60320c13-Down-Angle.aspx
[04:40:17] <zeeshan|2> nice
[04:40:21] <zeeshan|2> that even has a 105C conductor
[04:40:26] <zeeshan|2> not the garbage 60C
[04:40:40] <Rab> Now you have to source it. ;)
[04:41:33] <zeeshan|2> Velco Distribution Group, LTD 40 Larkin Ave. Markham, ON L3P 4R3 Canada
[04:41:34] <zeeshan|2> yay
[04:41:39] <zeeshan|2> distributor 1 hr away
[04:42:01] <Rab> They have a hospital version further down on that page. And maybe more I missed.
[04:42:42] <zeeshan|2> the one you posted works
[04:42:47] <zeeshan|2> i think i mighjt need to have it longer
[04:42:51] <Rab> You should call AMC and give them the Quail part number to update their records.
[04:43:04] <zeeshan|2> well the part number they give
[04:43:06] <zeeshan|2> works..
[04:43:13] <zeeshan|2> its just not down angle
[04:43:23] <Rab> You're in luck, 4931.180 is 15'.
[04:43:32] <zeeshan|2> sweet!
[04:44:05] <zeeshan|2> rab youre the electronics guru
[04:44:07] <zeeshan|2> help me :{
[04:44:17] <zeeshan|2> btw did you fix your backlash issue?
[04:44:21] <Rab> Although if you're agonizing over this stuff as much as you seem to be, I think you want to keep the cables as short as possible. Probably even cutting the male side off and wiring them to a terminal bus.
[04:44:30] <Rab> By ignoring it!
[04:44:34] <zeeshan|2> LOL
[04:44:49] <zeeshan|2> use cam software and use it to fix backlash
[04:44:57] <Rab> I've been too busy/sick to do more than run off some quick engraving projects, and they look OK.
[04:45:31] <zeeshan|2> Rab: i agree i'd like to keep the cables as short as possible
[04:45:43] <zeeshan|2> by terminal bus
[04:45:49] <zeeshan|2> you mean something that gets L1 and L2
[04:45:54] <zeeshan|2> energizes the entire bus
[04:45:55] <Rab> zeeshan|2, maybe there's an option for direct-wiring of the servo drives.
[04:45:57] <zeeshan|2> and i connect to it?
[04:46:02] <Rab> Yeah!
[04:46:07] <zeeshan|2> the problem is
[04:46:20] <zeeshan|2> the wires that go from the bus to the fuse would not be protected
[04:46:38] <Rab> I think you'd want breakers rather than fuses.
[04:46:54] <zeeshan|2> why
[04:47:08] <Rab> So you don't burn up a bunch of fuses.
[04:47:14] <zeeshan|2> :P
[04:47:17] <zeeshan|2> okay even with breakers
[04:47:29] <zeeshan|2> the wire that goes from terminal bus to breaker is unprotected
[04:47:32] <Rab> Fuses degrade with use.
[04:47:46] <zeeshan|2> that is true
[04:48:00] <Rab> Isn't it protected by the breaker?
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[04:48:23] <Rab> Or, you mean a breaker inline with each driver??
[04:48:35] <zeeshan|2> 3awg -----> bus ------> 14awg wire ----> breaker (15A) ----> servo drive
[04:48:41] <Rab> What's at the other end of all these exotic IEC power cords? $15 power strip?
[04:48:44] <zeeshan|2> the wire that goes from bus to 14awg , if it shorts on the case
[04:48:48] <zeeshan|2> will catch on fire
[04:48:54] <zeeshan|2> since the upstream breaker for the 3awg would be 100A
[04:49:20] <Rab> There's no protection in the servo drivers?
[04:49:28] <zeeshan|2> there is
[04:49:34] <Rab> You don't want to count on it?
[04:49:39] <zeeshan|2> but that does protect the wire between bus and 14awg from burning
[04:49:42] <zeeshan|2> *doesnt
[04:49:55] <zeeshan|2> say the it shorts on the case for some ungodly reason
[04:50:03] <zeeshan|2> theres no protection for it
[04:50:11] <Rab> Sounds like you want a breaker box with 15A breakers.
[04:50:27] <zeeshan|2> yes which is what i have, but it looks like an ugly wart attached to my control box =(
[04:50:35] <zeeshan|2> i was wondering if theres some sort of terminal bus solution
[04:50:38] <Rab> 3awg --> breaker box --> servo drive
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[04:50:53] <zeeshan|2> where the breakers mount directly to to the terminal bus
[04:51:15] <zeeshan|2> at eaton
[04:51:19] <zeeshan|2> we used to do it like this:
[04:51:22] <Rab> Reality bomb: everything you have shown so far looks like a collection of ugly warts.
[04:51:40] <zeeshan|2> Rab: hahahah
[04:51:40] <zeeshan|2> m,ean
[04:51:44] <Rab> Nothing justifies ugly warts like workplace safety.
[04:52:17] <zeeshan|2> darn it i cant find the pics :/
[04:52:50] <zeeshan|2> http://drawout-mccb.eaton.com/images/page1a.jpg
[04:52:59] <zeeshan|2> something like this would be beside the vfds
[04:53:14] <zeeshan|2> but that one is rated for 1000A! :P
[04:53:50] <Rab> bedtime
[04:54:44] <zeeshan|2> gnite!
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[06:59:00] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[06:59:13] <kb8wmc> good morning sir
[06:59:42] <Loetmichel> *yaaaaawn*
[06:59:51] * Loetmichel geht mal in die Küche, stellt die Tasse unter die Saeco. *Knöbbscher drügg* *RUUUIIIIIIIII* *KlackKlack* *KlackKlack* *Miiiieeerrrrk* *Brrrrrrr* *Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr* *Miiiiiiiifubb* ... Karamelsirup rein, Milch hinterher... *nipp* "aahh, guuuuut!"
[06:59:58] <Loetmichel> oh, wrong language...
[07:00:01] <kb8wmc> yes, I concur
[07:00:04] <kb8wmc> lol
[07:00:13] <Loetmichel> <- is drinking kis morning coffee.
[07:00:27] <Loetmichel> -k+h
[07:00:46] <kb8wmc> I was just about to turn in to bed
[07:01:12] <kb8wmc> hey, maybe you know is psha's link is not working
[07:01:53] <kb8wmc> I have tried for 2 days now to d/l camview-emc, but no go
[07:02:19] <Loetmichel> its 08:00 am over here... i should be at the company NOW... luckily i am the production manager and the only one who could cehw me out for being late is the boss... which is usually late as well ;-)
[07:02:24] <Loetmichel> chew
[07:02:45] <kb8wmc> good position to be in then
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[07:53:58] <Deejay> moin
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[08:23:35] <cmorley> kb8wmc; ask on the dev channel - i think someone mirrored Psha's camview - can't remember who
[08:25:37] <archivist> might have been CaptHindsight
[08:26:16] <cathode> random poll: how many folks here keep an inventory on-hand of hardware/fasteners, parts, motors, or anything else?
[08:26:34] <cathode> stuff that isn't being stored specifically for one project, that is
[08:26:44] <archivist> I do for the parts I sell and my archive
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[08:27:02] <cathode> ah, what do you sell?
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[08:28:37] <archivist> a bit of new old stock, was a crude sight set up years ago and not brought up to date just sells clock modules mainly
[08:29:05] <archivist> http://www.part-number.co.uk/ never made the ordering live
[08:30:24] <cathode> ah
[08:30:32] <cathode> ok.
[08:30:50] <cathode> how do you organize your parts? plastic bins or tubs on shelves? something else?
[08:30:51] <archivist> my archive is a bit more loved so that has an internal map to locations
http://www.collection.archivist.info/shelfview.php?src=artitle&locid=205
[08:31:23] <archivist> in boxes numbered
[08:31:31] <archivist> or on shelves
[08:31:58] <archivist> then there is in a box on a shelf in a room in a building :)
[08:32:22] <cathode> ok
[08:32:29] <archivist> items in the archive are now barcoded
[08:33:20] <cathode> right now i'm using containers like this.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/88948814/Shop/2014-05-04%2007.26.52.jpg
[08:34:38] <archivist> I have some like that for bolts etc, some draws for taps/dies
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[08:37:08] <Jymmm> Heh, these are my "hardware" containers...
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41r2QJQfxPL.jpg
[08:37:10] <archivist> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2014/2014_03_30_tools/IMG_1760.JPG
[08:37:46] <Jymmm> about 30 of them =)
[08:37:59] <archivist> coffee jars are now shelf supports and no longer containers :)
[08:38:15] <Jymmm> archivist: lol
[08:39:26] <archivist> 32 at the moment :)
[08:40:36] <Jymmm> The cashew jars hold 2.5 LBS, but are great for things like drywall screws as you can reach your hand in and grab what you want. Now starting to use PB Jars as they take up less room
[08:41:33] <archivist> whatever scheme you use, it will not fit all sizes of stock
[08:42:30] <Jymmm> True, but it's better now than it's been in decdes, at least now I know where things are =)
[08:43:00] <Jymmm> Still have to find the correct damn jar, but I at least know it's in one of em =)
[08:43:33] <archivist> then the sellers change the jar shape
[08:44:17] <Jymmm> Actually they did (bastards), from round to square
[08:44:38] <Jymmm> and no longer stack as well.
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[08:45:50] <cathode> hmm
[08:46:41] <cathode> archivist's organizer thing looks more user-friendly
[08:47:19] <cathode> also right now it's just me working on projects but if i had a friend helping me or working on his own thing for example, it would be beneficial to have things organized well
[08:47:26] <WalterN> cathode:
http://www.uline.com/product/AdvSearchResult.aspx?keywords=uline_plastic_bins
[08:48:07] <WalterN> cathode: u-line is a large company that sells boxes and stuff in your area
[08:48:14] <Jymmm> WalterN HA!, maybe on YOUR creidt card, thos bins are expensive
[08:48:20] <cathode> yeah... these look good:
http://www.uline.com/BL_8821/Divider-Boxes?keywords=uline_plastic_bins
[08:48:36] <archivist> open top boxes fail a bit in dusty environments
[08:48:54] <WalterN> Jymmm: I havent priced their plastic stuff, I buy cardboard boxes from them all the time though
[08:48:55] <Jymmm> Yep, and tip over and stuff goes EVERYWHERE
[08:49:50] <cathode> i'm kind of a fan of a unit with a bunch of pull-out divided drawers
[08:49:55] <cathode> because that's something i can make myself
[08:50:13] <cathode> i'd probably put some felt around the drawer faces to seal out dust
[08:50:25] <cathode> because archivist is right, dust gets everywhere
[08:50:32] <archivist> discount stores sometimes have the sets of draws
[08:50:45] <archivist> moths get in the draws!
[08:50:53] <cathode> eh
[08:52:19] <cathode> hmmm anyway, time for bed. gnight :)
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[08:52:38] <Jymmm> top of lids are always filthy with dust, but contents are always clean
http://i53.tinypic.com/212wxtt.jpg
[08:53:48] <Jymmm> 16 quart containers
[08:54:02] <archivist> I would never pay this price
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/48-DRAWER-ELECTRONIC-COMPONENT-PARTS-ORGANISER-STEEL-CABINET-STORAGE-DRAW-CASE-/131193947654
[08:54:57] <WalterN> ^thats the kind of thing I would want
[08:55:09] <Jymmm> http://i29.tinypic.com/17daon.jpg
[08:55:11] <WalterN> except made out of wood or steel :P
[08:55:17] <archivist> it is not £500 pounds worth though
[08:55:32] <WalterN> oh wait it is steel
[08:55:34] <Jymmm> archivist: Not even 20 either
[08:55:39] * WalterN shrugs
[08:56:22] <archivist> draper and raaco are cheaper makers
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[08:56:56] <Jymmm> Those are my drawers, and I just get containers from the dollar store for things like crimp ons, and other parts
[08:57:12] <SpeedEvil> My storage system is two million five hundred thousand tons of spinning metal, all alone in the night.
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[14:09:57] <MrHindsight> archivist: delrin gear
http://ibin.co/1gJSVjh1F2XL are you setup to cut these?
[14:11:08] <archivist> need the right hob and they are expensive to get made
[14:12:14] <MrHindsight> I think that gear is $400-700ea
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[14:12:45] <ssi> what's it for?
[14:12:50] <archivist> ouch, how many :)
[14:13:02] <MrHindsight> 1-4 quantity
[14:13:08] <archivist> accuracy needed ?
[14:14:11] <MrHindsight> don't know what exactly it goes into, probably a worm
[14:14:33] <MrHindsight> +/- 0.002"
[14:14:50] <archivist> with the throat it does look a normal wormwheel
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[14:16:37] <archivist> the problem is people dont stock worm cutters at a sensible price
[14:17:18] <MrHindsight> same for delrin worm gears :)
[14:18:05] <archivist> hmm I was about to go out to see a customer, let me think on it
[14:18:37] <MrHindsight> don't spin your wheels
[14:19:10] <archivist> you could get away with standard helicals possibly
[14:19:40] <MrHindsight> I might just print them
[14:20:23] <MrHindsight> with an epoxy composite
[14:21:41] <archivist> I did abuse one machine when making a brass one but I made the matching worm so had control of the pcd
http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2008/2008_10_07_Gear_cutting_examples/p1010057.jpg
[14:22:28] <archivist> technically the radius is a bit large because of the hob I used
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[14:25:06] <archivist> I dont see how a clue gun is going to make it within .002 without some "running in"
[14:25:35] <MrHindsight> SLA using a photopolymer composite
[14:25:55] <MrHindsight> no glue guns
[14:27:05] <archivist> also the material is probably unsuited to use as a gear
[14:28:53] <ssi> even glue gun printed gears do surprisingly well
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[14:30:44] <MrHindsight> I can blend resins with higher tensile and flex mod than delrin, but delrin has far more elongation at break
[14:31:33] <MrHindsight> but if the teeth are already stretching you have other problems
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[14:34:29] <MrHindsight> you can glue gun delrin
[14:34:44] <MrHindsight> but the res is poor
[14:36:11] <MrHindsight> bbl
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[15:07:26] <Loetmichel> reprapping POM is difficult because the melting opoinjt and the decomposition point are only 20° apart
[15:08:01] <Loetmichel> -o-j
[15:11:04] <CaptHindsight> Polyoxymethylene (POM)?
[15:11:22] <CaptHindsight> yeah, you don't use a toy printer
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[15:22:52] <CaptHindsight> the Dupont Delrins melt ~215C,
http://plastics.dupont.com/plastics/pdflit/europe/delrin/delrin-mouldtip-melt.pdf
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[15:43:29] <Loetmichel> CaptHindsight: the absolute temperatures atre not necessarily the problem
[15:43:47] <Loetmichel> the small margin for error untiol it decomposes is
[15:43:54] <Loetmichel> because decomposing POM is NASTY
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[16:02:31] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: yes, I understood that the first time you mentioned it :)
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[16:32:24] <kb8wmc> CaptHindsight: do you know if psha's link for camview-emc has been mirrored and if so where?
[16:33:01] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: I have a copy of it
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[16:33:21] <CaptHindsight> what files do you need? I'm just about to walk out the door....
[16:34:07] <kb8wmc> thanks Capt.....camview-emc and all others associated with building cam application
[16:34:08] <jdh> panel mounting plates... painted white, or galvanized?
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[16:34:47] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: it's not straightforward to install
[16:35:23] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: he has packages for older distros but even they need work to get all the features working
[16:35:23] <kb8wmc> yes, I have installed it on another machine previously
[16:35:35] <CaptHindsight> I'll be back in 2-3 hours
[16:35:40] <kb8wmc> rgr that
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[16:45:00] <zeeshan|2> jdh: painted white! :P
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[16:45:26] <ssi> I dropped my plasma table off at the powder coater this morning
[16:45:40] <zeeshan|2> its good still?
[16:45:40] <zeeshan|2> :D
[16:45:44] <zeeshan|2> er
[16:45:47] <zeeshan|2> nm i was thinking laser
[16:45:53] <jdh> z: yeah... their electrical guy wants galvanized for 'better grounding'
[16:46:06] <zeeshan|2> what is he going to do
[16:46:09] <zeeshan|2> ground shit everywhere?
[16:46:18] <zeeshan|2> ask him why a breaker box is painted asa 49
[16:46:24] <zeeshan|2> or 41 i forget the nubmer
[16:47:25] <jdh> for the same reason I want white. The galvanized ones are ugly
[16:47:42] <zeeshan|2> is it a control mounting plate?
[16:47:49] <zeeshan|2> or power distribution
[16:47:51] <zeeshan|2> or what? :P
[16:47:53] <jdh> controls
[16:48:05] <jdh> plcs, drives, fuses, etc
[16:48:07] <ssi> tell him he can spin polish any grounding points
[16:48:26] <zeeshan|2> to be honest with you i've seen both for control applications
[16:48:34] <zeeshan|2> we just sent galv stuff through punches
[16:48:37] <zeeshan|2> rather than the laser cutter
[16:48:43] <jdh> they already ordered galvanized.
[16:48:52] <Rab> Neat!
http://www.intercoastalpaint.com/sg_userfiles/IPC_Color_Card.jpg
[16:48:52] <zeeshan|2> tell him to weld it
[16:49:09] <zeeshan|2> wut rab
[16:49:19] <Rab> Wonder how to find 'Rockwell Delta Gray'.
[16:49:33] <Rab> ASA 49 BTW.
[16:49:40] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[16:49:49] <jdh> I told him I wanted white for any that would be seen from normal positions while opened.
[16:53:19] <Rab> Is zinc coating any better for grounding than paint? It works by oxidizing.
[16:53:44] <zeeshan|2> Rab: paint isn't really conductive
[16:53:45] <Rab> I think you have to cut through it (star washer, etc) to make a reliable connection.
[16:54:05] <zeeshan|2> when i did body work on the car you'd paint the bare metal layer with zinc coated paint
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[16:54:13] <zeeshan|2> because you can still weld through it
[16:54:33] <ssi> makes you sick tho
[16:54:33] <ssi> :P
[16:54:46] <Rab> The point is that if you have to penetrate the coating to be sure of your connection, you might as well use the coating you want.
[16:54:47] <zeeshan|2> yea that stuff is like aids
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[16:56:56] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B1xfFoCIIAAoveT.jpg:large
[16:56:57] <ssi> it's starting
[16:57:29] <zeeshan|2> looking good :D
[16:58:04] <zeeshan|2> http://www.industrialcontroldirect.com/enclosures-102/exm-enclosures-nema-4-12-159/single-door-wall-mount-225/nema-4-12-single-door-wall-mount-3320.html
[16:58:06] <zeeshan|2> is this expensive
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[17:16:05] <ssi> too quiet!
[17:17:49] <zeeshan|2> not moving anything today?
[17:19:14] <jdh> expensive for personal use.
[17:19:23] <zeeshan|2> jdh yea man..
[17:19:32] <zeeshan|2> im looking for another enclosure to hold my breakers
[17:19:34] <zeeshan|2> and computer stuff
[17:19:46] <zeeshan|2> id like it to be 24x24x8
[17:19:55] <zeeshan|2> so i can bolt it to this 24x24x8 that i have
[17:20:07] <zeeshan|2> but i want to buy one under 100 bux :/
[17:20:24] <jdh> that's pretty big even for an ebay enclosure for $100
[17:20:45] <zeeshan|2> man im kinda kicking myself
[17:20:52] <zeeshan|2> i did some work for a guy back who said he had a bunch of enclosures
[17:20:57] <zeeshan|2> and he gave me the 24x24x8 that i have
[17:21:03] <zeeshan|2> i lost his number
[17:21:17] <jdh> my daughter turned down the eaton job
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[17:21:34] <zeeshan|2> why
[17:21:42] <jdh> (and bosch, bosch, fujifilm, volvo)
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[17:23:01] <jdh> didn't sound interesting. looks like she is going with Danaher
[17:23:48] <zeeshan|2> fancy
[17:23:53] <zeeshan|2> they own tektronix and fluke
[17:23:53] <zeeshan|2> :D
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[17:30:16] <jdh> and free housing for co-ops
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[18:11:52] <ssi> cleaning up all my cat40 tooling :/
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[19:33:24] <Connor> Okay... So, with the talk about servo's and steppers etc past few days.. I have questions.
[19:34:38] <Connor> They now have these closed loop stepper systems.. that take the encoder back to the driver. You watch videos of them perform and they're much smoother.. quieter.. and simply don't stall like a normal stepper.
[19:35:08] <Connor> My question is, using those in a Linuxcnc application vs taking the encoder direct to linuxcnc and running the stepper in velocity mode.
[19:36:29] <Connor> Benefits, drawbacks, and does anyone have a sample config of using a stepper with encoder in linuxcnc (using 7i76 and something like the 7i85
[19:39:59] <renesis> 23:36:41 < Connor> They now have these closed loop stepper systems.. that take the encoder back to the driver. You watch videos of them perform and they're much smoother.. quieter.. and simply don't stall like a normal stepper.
[19:40:03] <renesis> link to video
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[19:40:25] <renesis> 'doesnt stall like a normal stepper' means it slowed down
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[19:40:40] <renesis> smooth and quiet is just microstepping
[19:41:12] <renesis> diff from full step to even half step on my machine is noticable, nema23 motors
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[19:41:36] <Connor> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SozZ7af3wg
[19:41:40] <PCW> if you feed a normal stepmotors encoder data back to linuxcnc, that is not the same as a closed loop step drive (which is a true servo)
[19:41:46] <renesis> so yeah, if its closed loop from the stepper encoder to the driver, but not the control system, i dont see how its very helpful
[19:42:28] <renesis> yeah but im saying the a closed loop step drive cant do shit except slow down the motor drive speed, which creates positional errors because the controller doesnt know
[19:42:33] <renesis> or it can send a stop flag
[19:42:37] <renesis> killing the cycle
[19:42:55] <Connor> and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7BUTQoN0A&feature=em-share_video_user
[19:43:09] <renesis> with feedback back to the controller, the controller can reduce feed rate, affecting the drive speed of all the motors, eliminating positional error at the cost of cycle time and maybe tool life
[19:43:51] <renesis> the audio on this is hard panned?
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[19:44:13] <Connor> the controller in this case is linuxcnc.. my understanding is.. after some many follow errors.. it'll fail out.
[19:44:39] <renesis> as it should
[19:45:00] <renesis> your step drive with feedback should even allow 'many follow errors'
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[19:45:09] <Connor> but.. does linuxcnc drop the feed rate across the board to give the stepper a chance to not stall ?
[19:45:11] <renesis> it should just stop the cycle when it sees any follow errors
[19:45:28] <renesis> i dunno, but the point is you can do it in the controller
[19:45:39] <renesis> if i bitch in here enough, it maybe happens
[19:45:47] <renesis> pretty sure how thats how unhoming happened
[19:46:26] <renesis> you cant do it in the step driver that doesnt give its encoder signal to the controller
[19:46:28] <Connor> I'm just trying to figure out if it's worth doing closed loop to the driver, or closed loop to the controller.. (or both using a splitter)
[19:46:38] <renesis> they just said it in their fucked up left panned audio video
[19:46:48] <Connor> and.. at what point does it become more practical to switch to a servo.
[19:46:49] <renesis> all it can do is send a fault flag when they detect a stall
[19:46:55] <renesis> so right, its safer
[19:47:03] <renesis> but its not any sort of performance benefit
[19:47:47] <PCW> the closed loop step drives _are_ servos
[19:48:06] <renesis> yeah but they suck compared to normal servos
[19:48:22] <renesis> normal servos dont slow down in response to position errors
[19:48:32] <Connor> PCW OKay.. But.. they're just closed loop to the driver, not to linuxcnc.
[19:48:35] <PCW> sure they do
[19:48:37] <renesis> normal servos lag down, you add more power, they catch up
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[19:49:01] <PCW> same with close loop step drives, the are true servos
[19:49:05] <renesis> normal servos speed up
[19:49:11] <PCW> same
[19:49:19] <renesis> dude, closed loop stepper has a positional error, it prob skipped steps
[19:49:28] <renesis> so its behind, prob because trying to go to fast for the load
[19:49:31] <PCW> nope it cant skip steps
[19:49:38] <renesis> trying to drive it harder to catch up will make more skips
[19:49:44] <PCW> nope
[19:49:48] <renesis> how can it not skip steps
[19:49:50] <renesis> its magical?
[19:49:58] <renesis> its a special stepper with dc boost?
[19:50:15] <PCW> No its a 50 pole 2 phase AC servo
[19:50:31] <renesis> with a diff torque curve
[19:50:42] <renesis> and its not neccessarily 50 poles but whatever
[19:50:59] <PCW> 50 or 100 most commonly
[19:51:05] <renesis> so look, what does the driver do when the stepper drops steps
[19:51:08] <renesis> to catch up
[19:51:35] <PCW> it cannot lose steps in the same way a normal step drive can
[19:51:47] <renesis> why not
[19:52:00] <renesis> drive a stepper to hard and it drops steps
[19:52:16] <renesis> thats kind of what makes it a stepper
[19:52:23] <PCW> because the phase angle of the drive current is always synchronized with the rotor like a AC servo
[19:52:42] <PCW> that is the key difference
[19:52:50] <renesis> right so if it didnt have enough power to keep up with the cycle
[19:52:50] <Connor> PCW: OKay, so, without the feedback into the driver, it's really just stepper with fault detection.. if you use the driver with encoder feedback, it turns it into a servo.. One that you don't need tune the PID loop too.
[19:52:56] <renesis> and it needs to go faster to catch up
[19:52:58] <renesis> what does it do
[19:53:06] <PCW> it catches up
[19:53:08] <renesis> and why did it slow down in the first place
[19:53:23] <renesis> but the reason it is behind is prob because it was going to hard
[19:53:28] <PCW> because you exceeded its stall torque (same as a normal servo)
[19:53:41] <renesis> steppers dont just randomly drop steps, ive never had it happen unless under load going too fast
[19:53:47] <Connor> Is there any benefit to splitting the encoder signal and sending it to linuxcnc in that style ?
[19:54:12] <PCW> maybe if checking for stalls
[19:54:32] <Connor> The driver can be configured to send back a signal if it stalls.
[19:54:36] <renesis> yeah i think the disconnect is youre like, it just catches up
[19:54:52] <renesis> i kind of think if its not caught up, it dropped steps because of loads
[19:55:01] <renesis> and trying to catch up would mean driving it at a high speed
[19:55:06] <renesis> which is lower torque in a stepper
[19:55:13] <renesis> which will cause more step drops
[19:55:21] <PCW> there are no steps in the same sense
[19:55:22] <renesis> which will have it even further behind
[19:55:38] <renesis> so it needs to catch up more, so go faster, so less torque
[19:55:42] <renesis> so more steps dropped
[19:55:45] <renesis> dude its a stepper
[19:55:51] <PCW> there are no steps
[19:55:52] <renesis> chopped or not, it has steps
[19:55:58] <renesis> yes dude there are steps
[19:56:06] <renesis> my shit microsteps, and there are steps
[19:56:20] <PCW> Nope there is only phase angle and current
[19:56:52] <renesis> i dont see why you cant express driving a stepper normally like that
[19:56:55] <Connor> renesis: I think what he's saying is.. the driver drives the stepper differently.. using a different technique that isn't like a stepper.. it doesn't "step" it's kinda like infinite micro stepping or something.
[19:57:02] <renesis> it doesnt change the toruq profile
[19:57:11] <Connor> renesis: Yes. It does.
[19:57:29] <renesis> not unless it changes the physical properties of the magnetics
[19:57:30] <Connor> which is why these are becoming so popular.
[19:57:53] <renesis> you your poorly produced video said it can send faults when it detects a stall
[19:57:56] <CaptHindsight> kb8wmc: what files do you need?
[19:58:04] <renesis> *dude youre
[19:58:05] <PCW> Thats true in the sense that the torque drop off with speed will be the same (that physics)
[19:58:05] <renesis> odd type
[19:58:13] <renesis> 00:00:07 < PCW> Thats true in the sense that the torque drop off with speed will be the same (that physics)
[19:58:24] <renesis> dude thats my whole point, so if you agree on that, youre agreeing with me
[19:59:01] <Rab> I saw that video a while back...I think maybe they monitor back-emf from the coils.
[19:59:08] <renesis> youre not going to change the inductance of the coils
[19:59:09] <PCW> No you mis-understand that close loop step drives are true servos, =
[19:59:23] <renesis> and the amount of time you have you have to put current into the coils when theyre moving
[19:59:35] <renesis> which is related to the drive voltage
[19:59:46] <renesis> so if these things have huge rails and transconductance amps, then sure
[19:59:48] <Rab> And have extra fancy electronics to adaptively adjust the drive.
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[19:59:54] <renesis> but a normal step driver would perform the same
[20:00:32] <renesis> given the same voltage rails, the same pulse train, feedback isnt going to make the stepper faster somehow when it starts fucking up
[20:00:42] <renesis> im sure theyre very nice drives but i highly doubt theyre magic
[20:00:45] <PCW> Nope heres the thing , a normal stepdrive applies full current all the time, a close loop step drive only applies whats needed (since its a servo)
[20:01:06] <renesis> okay
[20:01:10] <renesis> so youre saying its greener
[20:01:34] <renesis> or maybe deals with slew rate problems by not being all the way at the opposite rails
[20:01:47] <Connor> depending on what your doing.. it's the difference between slamming into a brick wall.. or slowly pushing through it..
[20:01:53] <renesis> so it can have less torque at times versus a normal step motor drive
[20:02:12] <renesis> connor: that sounds like a microstepping drive to me
[20:02:14] <PCW> and doesnt stall like a step drive, it stalls like a servo
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[20:02:44] <renesis> again, not sure how its max torque will be any diff
[20:03:01] <renesis> given the same rails, and the same chopper scheme
[20:03:08] <PCW> so if you set the ferror wide enough you can force the shaft 10 turns out of position and ist will zip back when you let it go
[20:03:22] <renesis> so what
[20:03:30] <PCW> because it _is_ a servo
[20:03:36] <renesis> it cant do that at speed under load
[20:03:44] <renesis> if its already fucking up
[20:04:03] <PCW> sure it can its no different than any other servo
[20:04:10] <renesis> sure it a servo but it doesnt have the same torque profile as something with huge magnets handing off 2 or 3 times per rev
[20:04:35] <renesis> its a timing and inductance issue, you fix it with current feedback and pwm with massive voltage overhead
[20:05:01] <renesis> normal step driving, if a servo setup can back off on torque, thats neat, but its not going to increase max torque and thus max speed
[20:05:02] <PCW> sure 50 poles means its for lower speeds and high torques
[20:05:19] <renesis> and lower torque at higher speeds
[20:05:32] <renesis> not like brushless motors are any diff
[20:05:53] <renesis> theyre usually not just run in a way where you will get them to lose enough torque to stall
[20:06:09] <PCW> exactly, it jus a high pole count brushless servo
[20:07:09] <Connor> PCW What does linuxcnc do on follow error?
[20:07:36] <PCW> shuts down
[20:07:52] <Connor> What if it's below the ferror limit ?
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[20:08:03] <skunkworks> does nothing?
[20:08:14] <Connor> Does it simply adjust the PID to compensate
[20:08:17] <Connor> ?
[20:08:47] <PCW> nothing happens until you exceed the ferror bounds
[20:08:54] <renesis> if i was running closed loop steppers, and linuxcnc cant reduce feed rate on follow error, i would bitch in here until the option appeared
[20:09:06] <PetefromTn_> I don't think anyone here is trying to suggest that simply adding the encoder and servo style drive makes the stepper more torquey or powerful.
[20:09:13] <renesis> because it seems straightforward and effective
[20:09:29] <renesis> well, except connor and pcw
[20:09:47] <PCW> close loop stepper are simply small servos that use step motors and require no different handling
[20:09:49] <PetefromTn_> no from what I am reading they never did unless I am also missing something
[20:10:01] <Connor> Okay. At THIS point, I'm just trying to figure out the benefit of full closed loop to linuxcnc vs closed loop to the driver..
[20:10:30] <renesis> 23:59:04 < renesis> it doesnt change the toruq profile
[20:10:31] <Connor> and simply slapping a encoder onto a stepper and feeding that to linuxcnc isn't the same as these hybrid stepper servo's
[20:10:32] <renesis> 23:59:13 < Connor> renesis: Yes. It does.
[20:11:02] <PetefromTn_> it sounds like from what Pete is saying the drives have more capability to maintain position and avoid stalling then just an encoder into linuxCNC
[20:11:04] <Connor> renesis: It changes it in the fact that it it doesn't apply full current all the time like a stepper
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[20:11:18] <Connor> Need to grab lunch. back in a bit.
[20:11:21] <skunkworks> mainly adding a encoder to the stepper can take into account following error and missed steps...
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[20:11:22] <PetefromTn_> yes but it cannot increase the torque or power above what it is rated at.
[20:11:25] <renesis> so it reduces low speed torque?
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[20:11:43] <renesis> sounds green
[20:12:33] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SozZ7af3wg
[20:12:52] <PetefromTn_> This video kinda shows how they work differently on basically the same motor
[20:12:59] <renesis> what does standard driver/controller mean
[20:13:03] <renesis> full step?
[20:13:12] <PetefromTn_> basic open loop stepper as I gather it.
[20:13:21] <renesis> yeah but driven how
[20:13:40] <renesis> because what they did sounds like when i change my xylotex jumpers from full step to microstep
[20:13:59] <renesis> huge changes in sound and torque
[20:14:14] <PetefromTn_> From what little I understand of it the closed loop and open loop drivers still have microstepping options
[20:15:08] <renesis> Both stepper motors are receiving equal current and being run at approximately the same speed. The motor on the left is running like a stepper while the motor on the right behaves like a BLDC.
[20:15:14] <renesis> honestly it all sounds like marketing
[20:15:38] <renesis> because the first thing i want to know is if 'standard controller technology' means microstepping
[20:15:39] <PetefromTn_> Believe me I am normally a servo guy but these new drives definitely close the gap between a stepper and a servo choice. It really comes down to what you need the motor to do.
[20:15:41] <PCW> the key difference is that a closed loop step drive knows the rotor position so can always apply current in the proper phase angle
[20:15:49] <renesis> if they wanted to be clear, they would say microstepping or full stepping
[20:16:03] <PetefromTn_> what difference does it make?
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[20:16:24] <Jymmm> http://www.geckodrive.com/support/step-motor-basics.html
[20:16:26] <renesis> what do you mean
[20:16:34] <renesis> theyre making statements based on claims that are ambiguous
[20:16:40] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS7BUTQoN0A
[20:16:50] <renesis> that i can reproduce with pretty standard step drivers from 10 years ago
[20:16:53] <PetefromTn_> This is another manufacturers video showing the same basic tech.
[20:17:07] <PetefromTn_> you can make your stepper NOT loose steps and run smoother?
[20:17:12] <renesis> at least this time they didnt hard pan the audio
[20:17:52] <renesis> petefromtn_: theyr motors lose steps
[20:17:55] <renesis> they get them back
[20:18:06] <renesis> at the edge of their operation envelope, so a rapid movement, it cant catch up
[20:18:23] <PetefromTn_> not really
[20:18:24] <renesis> i dont have probs with steppers unless theyre at the edge of their operational envelope
[20:19:01] <renesis> petefromtn_: year this is the same vid
[20:19:17] <renesis> their sound guy sucks, the mixer pan knob is fucked, audio at the beginning is fine
[20:19:32] <renesis> all it says, if you listen, if what it stalls it sends a signal to other devices
[20:19:38] <renesis> *when it stalls
[20:19:45] <PetefromTn_> ANY motor can stall
[20:19:49] <renesis> which is awesome, but nothing like a true servo drive
[20:19:59] <PCW> it is a true servo
[20:20:00] <renesis> right but steppers do it more, heh
[20:20:06] <PetefromTn_> actually can you tell me how it is different than a true servo?
[20:20:08] <renesis> okay a traditional servo
[20:20:11] <renesis> symantics
[20:20:11] <PCW> it is absoluetl a true servo
[20:20:34] <PCW> its a traditional servo
[20:20:37] <renesis> petefromtn_: the range of operation, most servos arent run until their torque curve is zero
[20:20:58] <PCW> of course not
[20:21:11] <renesis> steppers are
[20:21:21] <PetefromTn_> honestly I would normally NEVER consider a stepper because I like closed loop operation but after seeing a couple videos of these things it is certainly a viable option to a brushless servo
[20:21:28] <PCW> Nope you alway need margis
[20:21:35] <renesis> its neat because it has fault detection
[20:21:35] <PCW> margins
[20:21:43] <renesis> but so does an encoder on a standard stepper
[20:21:47] <renesis> with a standard drive
[20:21:51] <renesis> that im guessing is cheaper
[20:22:01] <PetefromTn_> well not that much cheaper it seems
[20:22:06] <renesis> like, if you feed them vector based data, that reduces load on the pc
[20:22:09] <renesis> thats a good thing
[20:22:31] <renesis> but in physical performance, i dont see a benefit
[20:22:31] <PetefromTn_> most any drive today has fault detection and alerting
[20:22:41] <renesis> not open loop steppers
[20:22:46] <renesis> step dir, yo
[20:23:32] <PetefromTn_> the benefit is that the damn thing will drive to position no matter what right up until it faults..
[20:23:45] <renesis> also, as i mentioned, adding code to linux cnc to make steppers more resilient using encoder feedback is pretty straight forward
[20:23:51] <PCW> They have the same torque/speed limitations of stepmotors (due to having many poles)
[20:23:57] <renesis> and kind of eliminates the benefits of the step servo drives
[20:24:18] <renesis> unless you need to vector based commands to reduce realtime load on the system
[20:25:00] <renesis> thats only an assumption based on step/dir signaling being very real time intensive versus driving servos
[20:25:09] <renesis> im not sure if thats the case, but its my understanding
[20:25:39] <renesis> they seem useful ad a signal adapter
[20:26:05] <PCW> lower heat load and better positioning accuracy are possible with close loop vs open loop step drives
[20:26:20] <renesis> lower heat might cause problems versus consistent loading
[20:26:33] <PetefromTn_> after watching that video I can tell you that if I ever built a stepper based machine it would undoubtedly have those closed loop hybrid steppers on it.
[20:26:39] <renesis> typically thermal cyclying is harder on coils than constant heat
[20:27:12] <renesis> well like i said theyre good marketing vids
[20:27:37] <CaptHindsight> because they expand and contract over temp?
[20:27:43] <renesis> yes
[20:27:52] <renesis> so the enamel rubs
[20:28:07] <PetefromTn_> you basically don't have to worry about lost steps anymore... what is marketing about that?
[20:28:10] <renesis> the enamel usually doesnt have issue with temps unless you are over spec
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[20:28:17] <CaptHindsight> and the CTE is different between the coating and metal?
[20:28:22] <renesis> well im saying you do
[20:28:25] <PCW> Weve done this and its a smart and high performance way to drive step motors
[20:28:49] <PCW> (if you dont mind the cost of the encoder and more expensive drive)
[20:29:06] <renesis> petefromtn_: if you lose steps at rapid, it wont be able to catch up in time to end a cycle
[20:29:10] <PCW> you still are limited to maybe 200W max
[20:29:21] <renesis> its true that at lower speeds without load, it can likely catch up
[20:29:40] <PCW> it can always catch up
[20:29:43] <renesis> but in my experience, when steppers fuck up, its at the edge of their envelope
[20:29:51] <PetefromTn_> how do you figure that?
[20:29:53] <renesis> where trying to make them catch up will just make them skip more
[20:30:07] <PetefromTn_> THEY NEVER SKIP thats the whole point.
[20:30:10] <PCW> that what you dont understand, it NEVER skips
[20:30:10] <renesis> meanwhile
[20:30:14] <renesis> other steppers are still going
[20:30:19] <renesis> unless this is a one axis machine\
[20:30:28] <renesis> for a one axis machine this technology is wonderful
[20:30:44] <renesis> wtf @ never skips
[20:30:48] <PCW> and this is different from any other servo how?
[20:30:52] <renesis> okay so itll just stop the cycle
[20:31:19] <PetefromTn_> try not to think of it as a stepper and skipping more as a servo that is trying to maintain position.
[20:31:31] <renesis> pcw: the servos will likely slow down instead of just stop, prob less error, maybe the cycle can be recovered, restarted
[20:31:55] <PetefromTn_> that is what these do as well apparently
[20:32:05] <renesis> right and im saying that when steppers usually have problems, it wont be within the capability of the drive to have it catch up in time to keep the other drives from desyncing
[20:32:10] <PCW> but unlike a open loop stepper it could be 5 steps behind at catch up, a
[20:32:19] <renesis> so its basically a fault mechanism, versus normal feedback steppers
[20:32:38] <PCW> that is not any different from any other servo system
[20:32:39] <PetefromTn_> normal steppers have no feedback
[20:32:45] <renesis> um
[20:32:52] <renesis> you can put encoders on them
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[20:32:57] <PCW> nope you still diont get it
[20:33:17] <renesis> or you dont understand my criticism
[20:33:47] <PCW> I do and you dont understand that these are full servos
[20:33:47] <renesis> normal steppers can have feedback, and can throw errors when theyre behind, or try and catch up
[20:34:01] <CaptHindsight> do any of the closed loop stepper drives list the length of their PID interval?
[20:34:12] <renesis> well i understand i just dont think it matters compared to running the equiv stepper properly with feedback encoders
[20:34:18] <PCW> probably 50 KHz or so
[20:34:29] <renesis> if shit fucks up, the controller can try and save, but its prob just going to stop
[20:34:49] <renesis> if the stepper has enough headroom, no reason linux cnc couldnt have it speed up to catch up
[20:34:54] <PCW> no different tha a standard servo (which they _are_)
[20:35:01] <renesis> my argument is that in both cases, it likely wont be able to fix the fault
[20:35:08] <renesis> and will just stop the cycle
[20:35:20] <CaptHindsight> if the motors and drives are properly sized for the application there won't be any problems
[20:35:27] <renesis> because a stepper run at full torque wouldnt have fallen behind like the servo stepper
[20:36:02] <renesis> im saying it doesnt seem to add benefit versus just putting encoders on steppers and feeding into linux cnc
[20:36:08] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight agreed
[20:36:11] <CaptHindsight> renesis: your scenarios are based on using the system outside of the design constraints
[20:36:35] <CaptHindsight> just outside
[20:36:39] <renesis> thats typically when shit fucks up and thats kind of how you run on small open loop step machines
[20:36:51] <renesis> which is when fault flags happen
[20:37:05] <renesis> run completely inside their envelope, none of this matters at all
[20:37:10] <ssi> PCW: I want to re-retrofit my HNC with newer, smaller drives and power supplies
[20:37:25] <ssi> PCW: it's all 90VDC... any thoughts on what I could do about a power supply for that?
[20:37:46] <PCW> transformer?
[20:37:50] <renesis> the step-servo drives seem greener and may load the controller less, i dont think theyll perform better
[20:38:07] <PCW> They do perform better
[20:38:13] <renesis> versus steppers with encoders back to the controller directly using standard chopper drives
[20:38:26] <ssi> the existing supply is a transformer, but it's effin massive and I'd like to try to get everything small enough to stick in the nema box on the side of the lathe
[20:38:26] <CaptHindsight> for a properly designed system they will both work equally well
[20:38:31] <ssi> was thinking switcher, but I dunno if that's a good idea
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[20:38:36] <renesis> pcw: in a fault tolerance sense versus open loop steppers, yes
[20:38:57] <renesis> pcw: in a fault tolerance sense versus closed loop steppers, no
[20:38:58] <PCW> more fault resistance as well
[20:39:03] <renesis> but there are other benefits besides that
[20:39:08] <PCW> and better accuracy
[20:39:12] <renesis> and if youo need those and can afford the tech, neat
[20:39:23] <renesis> i dont think better accuracy versus closed loop step
[20:39:39] <PetefromTn_> the tech is just a little bit more expensive than typical drives and steppers..
[20:39:43] <PCW> vs open loop absolutely
[20:40:05] <renesis> yeah but thats like beating up toddlers
[20:40:07] <renesis> who cares
[20:40:08] <CaptHindsight> a discussion of what each system will do when pushed beyond it's design limits and margin for error is another topic
[20:40:15] <CaptHindsight> it's/its
[20:40:23] <renesis> well right that what im going on about
[20:40:40] <renesis> and all along my argument has been that within their envelope, they should act the same
[20:40:44] <CaptHindsight> but who does that?
[20:40:45] <renesis> else its not really cnc =\
[20:40:49] <CaptHindsight> save some $
[20:41:28] <renesis> and small cnc, which is a big part of what linux cnc are about, are constantly run up against their envelopes
[20:41:37] <renesis> shit thats almost what a small cnc is about
[20:41:48] <PCW> ssi if you use a switcher you have to worry about where the braking energy goes
[20:41:49] <renesis> LETS SEE IF THIS LITTLE 80LB MONSTER CAN DO STEEL TODAY!
[20:41:52] <PetefromTn_> which is exactly why these drives and motors are desireable..
[20:41:53] <ssi> good point
[20:42:21] <renesis> or encoders
[20:42:30] <PCW> so you likely still need large output capacitors
[20:42:41] <CaptHindsight> renesis: do you just use a bigger *duino then or move to the RPi for real power? :)
[20:43:13] <renesis> i program avr in asm since before arduino existed, please to fuck off
[20:43:23] <renesis> no offense
[20:43:28] <jdh> how rude.
[20:43:39] <renesis> kinda but he started it with the arduino jab
[20:43:39] <PetefromTn_> I don't get why you cannot see that a cooler running, smoother, motor that cannot lose steps is not better...
[20:43:56] <renesis> it can lose steps it can just catch up
[20:43:56] <jdh> that was the rude part.
[20:44:01] <renesis> and heat cycling coils is bad
[20:44:08] <renesis> and its more $$$, even if just a little more
[20:44:09] <PetefromTn_> there is no heat cycling
[20:44:19] <renesis> how is there no heat cycling if it reduces power
[20:44:26] <PetefromTn_> they just generall run cooler for the same size motor
[20:44:43] <renesis> so they wont use more power at higher loads?
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[20:44:52] <renesis> than at lower loads?
[20:45:14] <PCW> yeah all bet the motors last a lot longer because if the much lower average temperature
[20:45:23] <PetefromTn_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iryj1bJlAd4
[20:45:31] <jdh> can a closed loop stepper really catch up if it misses steps?
[20:45:40] <PCW> sure
[20:45:58] <jdh> where does additional torque come from?
[20:46:05] <renesis> pcw: coil enamale handles high temp very well
[20:46:31] <renesis> and they tend to be in very assemblies, because high precision motors
[20:46:40] <renesis> so vibration isnt going to cause huge problems for the coils
[20:46:57] <renesis> which means short of just over spec operation, heat cycling is prob whats going to fuck the coils
[20:47:40] <PCW> the heat cycling will be _much_ lower than standard drives
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[20:48:02] <renesis> microstepped drives?
[20:48:11] <renesis> shit just heats up stays hot
[20:48:31] <renesis> coils are prob close enough that temp changes between full on and full off coils is negligible
[20:48:38] <PCW> these will rarely get hot
[20:48:47] <renesis> and my whole argument may be bullshit if these things arent as green as i imagine
[20:49:07] <renesis> less power in an industrial sense when youre running spindle motors usually isnt a high priority
[20:49:27] <PCW> they are true servos so will get barely warm in normal use
[20:49:31] <renesis> especially considering steppers arent used a ton in very high power applications already
[20:49:50] <PCW> These are not for large machines
[20:50:04] <renesis> right, so power use is probably negligible
[20:50:47] <CaptHindsight> the power savings is during when they are parked
[20:51:20] <Connor> OKay, So, here is the BIG question for me. and this isn't even related to steppers vs servo's vs hybrid stepper servo's.. This has to do with closed loop.
[20:51:38] <renesis> capthindsight: so current could be close to zero
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[20:52:13] <renesis> no reason it couldnt be zero
[20:52:15] <CaptHindsight> jdh: if there's not enough torque there's just not enough torque, there's no super boost feature
[20:52:36] <Connor> Closed Loop to the driver with fault indication vs Closed loop to linuxcnc. What's the benefit, if ANY to doing closed loop to linuxcnc? (You can get SERVO drivers that are step/dir like Gecko's)
[20:53:13] <renesis> the drives arent operating in isolation
[20:53:38] <renesis> an algorithm could slow all three drives down in certain low fault conditions
[20:53:47] <renesis> and hopefully fix the issue
[20:53:58] <Connor> renesis: Is that a response to my question? And Does linuxcnc make USE of that ?
[20:54:16] <renesis> it could a lot easier than getting the servo drive companies to impliment it
[20:55:11] <renesis> like, if the encoders or an error signal isnt sent back to the controller, its open loop
[20:55:22] <Connor> renesis: and in some cases SLOWING down the feed rate, is exactly the WRONG thing to do. I.E. Milling Aluminum.. could lead to chip welding, which would increase the load..
[20:55:38] <CaptHindsight> jdh: if that is the issue, you're moving too fast, used a motor with not enough power, have rusty bearings, too high a load, to rapid an accel etc etc
[20:55:38] <renesis> if only a boolean error signal is sent back to linux cnc, its barely closed loop
[20:55:39] <PCW> the advantages of closed loop to linuxcnc are
[20:55:41] <PCW> never lose position even in estop so no need to rehome
[20:55:43] <PCW> ability to see where the motors really are
[20:55:45] <PCW> ability to use linuxcncs smart ferror bounds
[20:56:29] <Connor> I got the first 2, what the smart ferror bounds ?
[20:56:39] <renesis> yeah and with standard drives and encoders, which may be cheaper, i get those benefits
[20:56:45] <renesis> im not sure i do with the step-servos
[20:57:01] <renesis> connor: prob just an allowable error spec
[20:57:23] <PCW> with simple step-servos like Geckos you have a single ferror limit
[20:57:25] <renesis> like if you have backlash, and you know error will undo itself on dir changes, you can tell it to not halt on that if its within your tolerances
[20:57:51] <zeeshan|2> sweeeeet
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[20:57:59] <renesis> pcw: i think its just a pin changes state, no?
[20:58:03] <PCW> linuxcncs ferror bounds scale with velocity (since your errors will as well)
[20:58:10] <zeeshan|2> i scored 3 sheets of 36x36x1/8" magesnium sheets
[20:58:14] <zeeshan|2> what i'm going to do with them i dont know
[20:58:17] <zeeshan|2> :D
[20:58:17] <renesis> neat
[20:58:20] <PetefromTn_> renesis are you operating a stepper based system on linuxCNC with encoder feedback ?
[20:58:21] <renesis> make a fire
[20:58:24] <zeeshan|2> haha
[20:58:31] <renesis> petefromtn_: nope, open loop
[20:58:34] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking of making my dash out of them
[20:58:35] <zeeshan|2> for the rx7
[20:58:36] <renesis> my cnc is fureal shit
[20:58:55] <renesis> none of this safety and fault detection bullshit
[20:58:58] <PetefromTn_> so how do you figure you get those benefits Pete stated?
[20:59:03] <Connor> PCW: Okay.. now ere getting somewhere. So, if we do closed loop to the stepper/servo and add a encode splitter to linuxcnc.. and configure the driver so that it operates like a servo and not sends a fault on stall..
[20:59:06] <renesis> you just tune the machine and run it in its encelope
[20:59:15] <renesis> and verify you didnt skip
[20:59:22] <renesis> petefromtn_: i dont?
[20:59:25] <renesis> i never said i did?
[21:00:03] <renesis> im saying, over and over, i dont see the point of a step-servo drive for performance over a standard step drive and feedback
[21:00:08] <Connor> the never loosing position on estop can be a big deal.
[21:00:18] <PCW> Connor: fancier servos have a simulated encoder output
[21:00:20] <renesis> and without bringing the closed loop of the step servos back to the controller, its pretty much open loop
[21:00:25] <renesis> so less flexible
[21:00:26] <PetefromTn_> you just did say that.
[21:00:58] <renesis> paste an ill help you understand or admit im incorrect otherwise i dont know what youre referring to
[21:01:05] <Connor> pcw Right, I think the ones PetefromTn_ is using on his Cincinnati have that. But, those hybrid stepper-servo drivers don't.
[21:01:37] <PetefromTn_> do they not have encoder output...
[21:01:39] <zeeshan|2> connor when the way youve got it setup
[21:01:44] <zeeshan|2> youre gonna loose position anyway when you e-stop
[21:01:48] <zeeshan|2> cause you kill the power to the servos :P
[21:01:50] <zeeshan|2> er steppers
