#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-11-05

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[00:31:49] <zeeshan|2> Hi all!
[00:31:49] <zeeshan|2> :D
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[00:39:42] <XXCoder> hey
[00:42:06] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/ci50ock.png
[00:42:12] <zeeshan|2> the more i look at my layout
[00:42:13] <zeeshan|2> the more i think
[00:42:18] <zeeshan|2> its so unecessary to get such a huge cabinet
[00:42:26] <zeeshan|2> for the computer / 7i77 / interpolator cards..
[00:42:37] <zeeshan|2> can someone suggest something?
[00:42:48] <zeeshan|2> something that i can fix to my enclosure w/ the vfd
[00:42:51] <XXCoder> use compactor. save space ;)
[00:43:13] <zeeshan|2> shaha
[00:43:36] <zeeshan|2> i can't have anything above
[00:43:38] <zeeshan|2> or below the vfds
[00:43:50] <XXCoder> hmm need to remove floor and ceiling rhen
[00:43:53] <XXCoder> *then
[00:43:53] <zeeshan|2> since thats the airflow path
[00:44:00] <zeeshan|2> haha
[00:44:11] <zeeshan|2> you are in joker mode arent you!
[00:44:23] <XXCoder> yeah tend to be when really tired
[00:44:28] <zeeshan|2> :D
[00:45:03] * cpresser finished his pendant: https://ca.rstenpresser.de/blag/2014/11/linuxcnc-pendant/
[00:45:50] <zeeshan|2> 100 pulse per rev?
[00:45:54] <XXCoder> looks cool
[00:46:04] <zeeshan|2> yes looks nice :D
[00:48:24] <cpresser> yep. 100ppr
[00:48:29] <XXCoder> sigh [police don't know how to handle deaf people. just read about one that police had beaten for 7 minutes because he didn't do what police was yelling
[00:48:30] <cpresser> however, usb-hid is to slow
[00:49:04] <XXCoder> other one shot 8 times because he didn't turn around when asked. he was looking at things and didn't even know police was behind and yelling\
[00:49:06] <cpresser> actually not usb-hid. it does send all pulses to the pc. but the capture in the servo-thread cant keep up.. perhaps ill try with a faster fp-thread
[00:49:14] <XXCoder> sorry guys but of rant
[00:49:16] <zeeshan|2> is there a particular reason
[00:49:19] <zeeshan|2> you didnt hook it up to mesa?
[00:49:42] <zeeshan|2> (i think ive heard you talk about mesa before, so im assuming you have it :P)
[00:50:07] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder: thats messed up
[00:50:51] <cpresser> zeeshan|2: other machine^^
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[00:51:06] <XXCoder> expecially the 7 min beating one yeah. his son is police officier and he trained other police about deaf yet it happened anyway
[00:51:08] <zeeshan|2> oh :D
[00:57:04] <XXCoder> pretty good work day today. ran a cnc machine most of day with couple interruptions. One 2nd shoft guy finished very big job but didn't count parts #. I had to count em myself and it was 719 plastic airplane window protection sheets
[00:57:20] <XXCoder> and other one filter got overflow and I had to mop up coolant lol
[00:58:06] <zeeshan|2> XXCoder:
[00:58:12] <zeeshan|2> have you taken cnc programming classes
[00:58:15] <zeeshan|2> like learning mastercam
[00:58:21] <zeeshan|2> or g-code
[00:58:26] <XXCoder> g code a bit
[00:58:31] <XXCoder> busy working most times
[00:58:50] <zeeshan|2> try to do them in nightschool if you can
[00:58:55] <zeeshan|2> $$$ win
[00:59:16] <XXCoder> not enough money heh im pretty poor
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[00:59:43] <zeeshan|2> you guys dont have social plans there
[00:59:46] <zeeshan|2> where you can go back to school
[00:59:50] <zeeshan|2> and government pays for it?
[00:59:57] <zeeshan|2> when you're trying to upgrade your skills
[01:00:11] <zeeshan|2> government paid most of my schooling!
[01:00:12] <zeeshan|2> :D
[01:00:27] <zeeshan|2> the rest was scholarships and shit
[01:00:36] <zeeshan|2> whoops forgot room is pg rated :-)
[01:01:00] <XXCoder> I can be really nasty with just pg words
[01:01:21] <zeeshan|2> hehe
[01:01:31] <XXCoder> for example... your parents is related
[01:01:39] <XXCoder> *to each other
[01:02:40] <zeeshan|2> i dont get it :D
[01:03:03] <XXCoder> heh as in they are family before they even married. ugh lol
[01:03:15] <zeeshan|2> :D
[01:03:17] <zeeshan|2> haha
[01:03:29] <zeeshan|2> no moar
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[01:12:39] <XXCoder> heh I have plenty worse ones but ok lol
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[02:49:36] <zeeshan|2> would putting servo drives near sensitive electronis like the 7i77 and pc
[02:49:37] <zeeshan|2> be a bad idea?
[02:50:04] <zeeshan|2> in other words, i'm asking if servo drives emit noise like vfds
[02:58:21] <XXCoder> good question but cant you place EMF sheild between?
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[03:18:43] <Rab> cpresser, nice pendant. Do you have a link to the eBay listing for the encoder/enclosure?
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[03:32:57] <jdh> are
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[03:43:40] <CaptHindsight> aren't servo the drives in shielded enclosures?
[03:46:17] <CaptHindsight> how much the PC will tolerate noise in the cabinet depends on the design of the mainboard, power supply, how it's mounted and what it's mounted in
[03:47:29] <Tom_itx> yeah, it's a system not just a driver
[03:47:50] <CaptHindsight> one of the main differences in designing a motherboard for general consumer uses and an industrial PC is how well it handles ESD and noise
[03:48:15] <CaptHindsight> you get lucky with low cost mainboards
[03:49:37] <CaptHindsight> I've seen some mainboards that have pads for ESD protection devices but aren't stuffed
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[03:56:46] <XXCoder> because it's so cheap that esd dont care to touch em? lol
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[04:01:07] <cpresser> Rab: ebay-id: 360670838836
[04:01:44] <cpresser> question about smart-serial: is there any documentation? how would i build my own sserial device?
[04:01:56] <Rab> cpresser, thanks!
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[04:03:51] <Rab> cpresser, have you seen this? http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/sserial.9.html
[04:06:44] <cpresser> yes, but i was hoping that there was some 'real' documentation. that manpage you linked says "The Mesa Smart-Serial interface is a 2.5Mbs proprietary interface between the Mesa Anything-IO card..."
[04:07:09] <Tom_itx> also says: It is likely that this documentation will be permanently out of date.
[04:08:26] <Tom_itx> cpresser do you have any sserial cards?
[04:08:50] <Tom_itx> he makes a pendant sserial card
[04:08:58] <Tom_itx> if that's what you were after
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[04:12:28] <cpresser> Tom_itx: nope, i want a 24bit differential ADC
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[04:13:17] <cpresser> analog-devices ad7192 looks nice. i could do some usb-stuff.. but sserial sounds like more fun :)
[04:13:34] <Tom_itx> i think andy was working on that with pcw but i'm not positive
[04:15:37] <Tom_itx> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/41-guis/26252-pncconf-rework?start=10
[04:15:44] <Tom_itx> there's some discussion about it
[04:15:58] <Tom_itx> probably not what you're looking for
[04:20:00] <pcw_home> Theres probably almost enough information to make a sserisl remote in any sserial remote manual
[04:21:26] <pcw_home> and theres a complete set of source code for a sserial remote implementation in the 7I90 (though in an obscure assy language)
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[04:35:12] <cpresser> pcw_home: thx. ill have a look at it
[04:37:12] <zeeshan|2> http://www.cnc-shopping.co.uk/heidenhain-hr-250-5000-tnc-handwheel-p-5214.html?osCsid=049d7f5f2a5e3e218c3058468e69323a
[04:37:15] <zeeshan|2> i found one of these on the cnc
[04:37:31] <zeeshan|2> it really sucks that it has no axis select buttons on it
[04:38:15] <zeeshan|2> no info about it
[04:40:08] <zeeshan|2> anyone know about em?
[04:43:09] <WalterN> it looks like a knob, so it probably rotates at least one direction?
[04:43:28] <zeeshan|2> it rotates in both directions
[04:43:35] <zeeshan|2> i need to know what it outputs though
[04:43:45] <WalterN> (that was supposed to be a silly/funny response)
[04:43:56] <zeeshan|2> for some reason i'm thinking it's a similar output as to the same thing that comes from the glass scales
[04:44:03] <zeeshan|2> meaning i need another interpolator card to make it work :{
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[04:44:36] <zeeshan|2> lol
[04:44:41] <zeeshan|2> this thing goes on ebay for $700
[04:44:52] <zeeshan|2> i should just sell it and get a cheapo chinese one :P
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[04:49:13] <WalterN> enh
[04:49:28] <WalterN> I'd keep it, because its nice to have nice things :P
[04:49:49] <zeeshan|2> no poinmt if i cant make use of it :P
[04:50:00] <zeeshan|2> and all the people seem to be happy with those mpgs
[04:50:18] <zeeshan|2> xhc-hb04
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[05:05:16] <pcw_home> probably just quadrature
[05:06:41] <pcw_home> since MPGs are seldom more than 100 PPR
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[05:10:38] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home
[05:10:45] <zeeshan|2> i tried reading the instructions for 7i77
[05:10:50] <zeeshan|2> theyre lengthy!
[05:11:20] <zeeshan|2> i think the biggest thing i see in the manual is
[05:11:28] <zeeshan|2> not to have incorrect jumper settings when using external power supply
[05:13:15] <pcw_home> Yeah, the cards are protected against shorting out PC power but not shorting out an external 5V supply
[05:13:57] <pcw_home> so makes sure the 5I25/7I77 jumpers correspond
[05:17:55] <pcw_home> external power = 7I77 W5 RIGHT, 5I25 W2 DOWN
[05:17:57] <pcw_home> 5I25 POWERS 7I77 = 7I77 W5 LEFT, 5I25 W2 UP
[05:20:05] <zeeshan|2> yes
[05:21:43] <zeeshan|2> pcw_home: i was calculating currents and i know i need an external 5v supply
[05:21:55] <zeeshan|2> is it bad to use a 5v rail from the PC supply?
[05:22:08] <zeeshan|2> cause if something goes wrong, the currents can travel to the motherboard?
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[05:51:06] <zeeshan|2> anyone got a better suggestion
[05:51:10] <zeeshan|2> to organize these:
[05:51:11] <zeeshan|2> http://i.imgur.com/yuMCl5t.jpg
[05:51:23] <zeeshan|2> airflow path for vfds are from bottom to top
[05:51:33] <zeeshan|2> so i'd like to have as little obstruction
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[06:01:42] <MrSunshine> hmm are the small devices there less "self" heating than the big drivers?
[06:02:40] <MrSunshine> they might not be small (low) ?
[06:02:46] <MrSunshine> hard to see from head on picture =)
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[06:03:55] <XXCoder> zeeshan|2: maybe draw wiring paths
[06:04:02] <XXCoder> use cardboard to draw on
[06:04:20] <XXCoder> or whiteboard markers if it dont perment mark that thing
[06:05:15] <zeeshan|2> MrSunshine: im confused as to what youre asking
[06:05:40] <zeeshan|2> are you saying that: are thje small vfds generating little heat in comparison to big vfd?
[06:05:45] <MrSunshine> zeeshan|2, the small ones to the left of the VFD
[06:05:52] <MrSunshine> are they smaler than the big drivers for the mototrs ?
[06:05:54] <MrSunshine> motors
[06:06:02] <zeeshan|2> yes theyre smaller
[06:06:04] <zeeshan|2> in height
[06:06:05] <MrSunshine> ahh those are VFDs ?
[06:06:13] <zeeshan|2> yes the black ones that say nfx9000
[06:06:14] <zeeshan|2> are vfds
[06:06:42] <MrSunshine> i was thinking if you could move those to above the big VFD insted .. to not heat the motor drivers extra from hot air from the VFD but then i guess thats a problem also =)
[06:07:00] <zeeshan|2> unfortunately the height ofmy box is 8"
[06:07:02] <MrSunshine> ahh if i would have zoomed i would have seen that :P
[06:07:02] <zeeshan|2> so they wont fit
[06:07:25] <zeeshan|2> i was thnking
[06:07:30] <zeeshan|2> of putting the small vfds on standoffs
[06:07:35] <zeeshan|2> so the power supply doesnt blow the air flow
[06:07:48] <MrSunshine> or move the big VFD up, put the small ones directly under it and move the drivers to where the small VFDs are ? =)
[06:08:04] <MrSunshine> as the small ones should output alot less heat ?
[06:08:43] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[06:08:44] <MrSunshine> that top right motor driver would be in the full blast of the VFDs exhaust right ? =) depending on how hot the VFD will get i would see that as a problem =)
[06:08:45] <zeeshan|2> thats not a bad idea
[06:09:05] <zeeshan|2> i think im going to put some big fans
[06:09:06] <zeeshan|2> to push air
[06:10:15] <zeeshan|2> im tthinking
[06:10:22] <zeeshan|2> the 2 servo drives above the vfd
[06:10:25] <zeeshan|2> i'll make them A and C axis
[06:10:38] <zeeshan|2> cause they'll be used intermittently only
[06:12:02] <Connor> zeeshan|2: Where is the intake for the large VFD ?
[06:12:08] <MrSunshine> my 2 cents are to see to that nothing is in the exhaust of the power beast
[06:12:28] <MrSunshine> "airflow path is bottom to top"
[06:12:29] <zeeshan|2> connor bottom
[06:12:38] <zeeshan|2> (bottom relative to that pic)
[06:13:14] <Connor> What are the PSU's ?
[06:13:22] <Connor> voltage and ampg wise ?
[06:13:40] <MrSunshine> also if you get all the VFDs in line its easier to shield them if they start acting up with interferance =)
[06:13:42] <zeeshan|2> 5V 5A and 24V 8A
[06:13:59] <MrSunshine> zeeshan|2, you can screw the psus to the side of the cabinet also to free up some space
[06:14:03] <MrSunshine> (inside side of it)
[06:14:07] <zeeshan|2> do smps generate a lot of noise?
[06:14:15] <zeeshan|2> cause if i can throw them in the box with the interpolators, pc and 7i77
[06:14:19] <MrSunshine> zeeshan|2, smps? =)
[06:14:20] <zeeshan|2> it'll really help.
[06:14:25] <zeeshan|2> switched mode power supply
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[06:14:30] <MrSunshine> ahh
[06:14:56] <zeeshan|2> cause if theyre not there
[06:14:59] <Connor> How big is your cabinet ?
[06:15:00] <zeeshan|2> then it'll be so nice
[06:15:11] <zeeshan|2> i can seperate the 3 phase motor wires
[06:15:18] <MrSunshine> for big indictive loads i read that one should put a diode and a capacitor on the out of smps to the drivers
[06:15:21] <zeeshan|2> connor the one the vfds and servo drives go into is a 24"x24"
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[06:15:29] <zeeshan|2> the computer one might be 24x24 also
[06:15:34] <zeeshan|2> depending on what i can scavenge
[06:15:37] <Connor> I would rather have all the Servo's on the same plane.. with a wire duct above and below.
[06:15:42] <MrSunshine> as you could get some strange voltage regulation if you manage to feed back voltage to them from the motors =)
[06:15:46] <Connor> and then the vfd's in line..
[06:15:57] <zeeshan|2> hmm
[06:16:02] <zeeshan|2> maybe i should get a 24x48" box
[06:16:13] <zeeshan|2> but then i'll need to have a seperate control compartment
[06:16:17] <Connor> how big is that it's setting on /
[06:16:19] <zeeshan|2> to house the pc and interpolators
[06:16:22] <zeeshan|2> and 7i77
[06:16:37] <zeeshan|2> the plate is 21x21"
[06:17:03] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/mill_10_31_14_01.jpg
[06:17:11] <Connor> I'm a master at tight spaces.. :)
[06:17:14] <zeeshan|2> haha
[06:17:17] <zeeshan|2> thats why i posted in here
[06:17:25] <zeeshan|2> :D
[06:17:26] <Connor> Have room for 3 more drivers.
[06:17:36] <zeeshan|2> yep!
[06:17:37] <zeeshan|2> haha
[06:17:58] <zeeshan|2> i think i have an idea.
[06:17:59] <zeeshan|2> lkemme take apic
[06:18:05] <Connor> What's the Gap between those drivers?
[06:18:16] <Connor> You probably could move them a tad closer..
[06:24:08] <MrSunshine> oh well time to work .. gl hf zeeshan|2 =)
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[06:28:45] <zeeshan|2> :D
[06:28:49] <zeeshan|2> about 1 1/2"
[06:29:06] <zeeshan|2> actually its more
[06:39:22] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15529560458/
[06:39:23] <zeeshan|2> how about that
[06:39:24] <zeeshan|2> :D
[06:39:32] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15716534952/in/photostream/
[06:39:35] <zeeshan|2> airflow path is on the bottom like that
[06:39:51] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15714985255/in/photostream/
[06:39:55] <zeeshan|2> airflow exit of big vfd
[06:40:05] <zeeshan|2> i was thinking of putting like 2" standoffs for the servo drives
[06:40:36] <Connor_iPad> May want to put servos below the big one. It'll produce the most heat.
[06:40:57] <zeeshan|2> but then it'll suck the heat from the servo drives?
[06:41:47] <Connor_iPad> A and C on right side. They not used near as much.
[06:42:05] <zeeshan|2> http://www.pluscon.in/pcat-gifs/products-small/vfd-panels_10853149.jpg
[06:42:11] <zeeshan|2> interesting
[06:42:15] <zeeshan|2> they do stack vfds vertically
[06:42:39] <Connor_iPad> Yup.
[06:42:45] <zeeshan|2> http://www.red-e-vfd.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/A-B-Drives.jpg
[06:42:50] <zeeshan|2> these dont even have gap!
[06:42:53] <zeeshan|2> sideways..
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[06:56:54] <zeeshan|2> last pic for the night :P
[06:57:36] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15713140961/
[06:57:45] <zeeshan|2> i think this bblocks the least amount of airflow
[06:57:57] <zeeshan|2> those .5 hp vfds are tiny
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[07:49:14] <Deejay> moin
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[11:48:10] <miss0r> Have any of you guys ever successfully created two matching bevel gears in google sketchup ? I have some questions regarding the angles. When I create an envolute gear, and "resize" the top to half the size, I should get an angle of 45degrees on the outside, but this is only correct with the pitch. What am I doing wrong?
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[11:51:25] <archivist> it is not trivial http://www.archivist.info/gear/designbevel.php
[11:52:40] <miss0r> I am beginning to get a feeling that is not the case :)
[11:52:44] <miss0r> Thank you
[11:53:00] <SpeedEvil> Tooooo many numbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbaaaaaaaaaaarrs.
[11:53:40] <archivist> having done that maths written gcode and http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=bevel
[11:53:49] <archivist> it was still not right
[11:54:34] <miss0r> Well. I am building a safe door for my basement cinema :) It has to look and work completely like an old 'franz j瓣ger' safe - like in a danish movie series called 'olsen Banden' http://hitmanhq.com/hitman/cheats/images/safe.jpg
[11:54:47] <archivist> I think I missed something, mainly the backlash in the rotary
[11:55:33] <archivist> just get some production bevels from HPC or similar
[11:56:25] <archivist> you only need rack and pinion probably
[11:56:33] <miss0r> That would be admitting defeat! It doesn't matter if this takes time to learn - That is all part of the fun... now where can I get a script/plugin that works with google skethcup 2014 that does all the work for me :)
[11:57:05] <miss0r> archivist: that 'would' be correct, if I was not planning to have a threaded rod doing the movement on the back
[11:57:12] <archivist> first get some real cad
[11:57:56] <miss0r> then get a masters degree in rotary physics... :)
[11:59:16] <miss0r> The annoying thing is, I found this ruby plugin promising to be able to do all the gears I want, but I can't seem to find a compatible version of it for 2014
[12:00:23] <archivist> any thin with ruby is incompatible one version to next
[12:01:16] <miss0r> i've never liked ruby anyway
[12:05:57] <miss0r> on the bright side, I just installed a wood stove in my tool shop :) it's nice not to get frostbitten while standing at the pc :)
[12:06:49] * jthornton has not had to light a fire yet this year
[12:06:57] <jthornton> but it looks soon
[12:07:29] <miss0r> Where are you from?
[12:08:11] <jthornton> south east Missouri
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[12:09:11] <jthornton> http://www.gnipsel.com/shop/machines/machines.xhtml
[12:09:24] <miss0r> had to find it on a map :) Does it ever get that cold where you are?
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[12:10:11] <jthornton> yea, gets pretty cold sometimes
[12:11:08] <miss0r> At the moment I am wondering where the cold weater will start. usualy we have freezing temperatures by now, but at the moment its around 50F and raining
[12:11:28] <jthornton> http://www.weather.com/weather/wxclimatology/monthly/graph/63901
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[12:13:35] <miss0r> Doesn't look all that different from here: http://www.worldweatheronline.com/Copenhagen-weather-averages/Hovedstaden/DK.aspx
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[12:16:44] <Tom_itx> 40蚌
[12:16:51] <Tom_itx> feels colder than that!
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[12:18:39] <miss0r> that has something to do with humidity - I can only speak for my self; if the humidity rises anymore i'd have to wear a snorkel to breathe
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[12:25:15] <miss0r> I need to add a fan to this stove - the heat is not quite getting around
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[15:53:51] <JT-Shop> now I need to put the table saw back together
[15:55:04] <archivist> mine has been in bits since 2009
[15:57:59] <archivist> recently seen some of http://www.newyankee.com/ on tv, lazy git never uses a manual tool
[15:59:11] <JT-Shop> spindle bearing went out on mine
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[15:59:31] <JT-Shop> oh yea Norm
[16:00:12] <Rab> I read an interesting article on the energy usage/carbon footprint of CNC milling. Unfortunately I think it was authored by a nostalgia crank sentimental for manual milling.
[16:00:12] <JT-Shop> you should find the woodwrights shop he uses all manual tools
[16:00:17] <archivist> never needed mine for a while, took the legs etc off to bring home
[16:00:48] <JT-Shop> http://www.pbs.org/woodwrightsshop/home/
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[16:02:22] <archivist> that is Roy Underhill, I lurk on the oldtools mailing list where all the manual galoots are
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[16:11:26] <roycroft> roy is interesting
[16:11:40] <roycroft> he manages to bleed almost every show
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[16:28:57] <SpeedEvil> Powertools are just better than handtools.
[16:29:06] <SpeedEvil> With powertools, you can cut your arm clean off.
[16:29:29] <JT-Shop> table saw cuts much better with new spindle bearings
[16:29:44] <archivist> not always, chisels are better for stabbing
[16:31:32] <Rab> Guillotine paper cutters always instill a hightened sense of awareness in me, whether they're powered or not.
[16:33:32] <Rab> http://www.mccunecollection.org/images/Equipment/Challenge%20Advance%20Guillotine%20Paper%20Cutter/%5B069%5D%20Guillotine%20Paper%20Cutter.jpg
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[16:35:51] <roycroft> i think roy is a good woodworker
[16:35:56] <roycroft> he just doesn't perform well under pressure
[16:36:10] <roycroft> the projects he makes on his show are pretty sloppy
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[16:38:36] <roycroft> it's hard to make something with only hand tools in 30 minutes
[16:40:18] <archivist> dont forget most of the effort ends up on the cutting room floor (edited out)
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[16:54:32] <zeeshan|2> hi
[17:03:27] <zeeshan|2> asa helped me figured out what the heck this extra hydraulic fluid line is for
[17:03:45] <zeeshan|2> https://www.flickr.com/photos/128539016@N05/15067408304/
[17:03:57] <zeeshan|2> horizontal spindle!
[17:04:11] <roycroft> i think roy does a lot less editing than nahm
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[17:09:18] <SolarNRG> hi guys, just to let u know thanks once again for all ur help last night, I spent all last night reading the manual on that PID and watched loads of videos and I got the system 100% fully operational, spent most of the morning finding an industrial electronics store got the solid state relay, soldered off the 3a relay inside and abridged the wires so it was outputting 12vdc from the PID to
[17:09:18] <SolarNRG> trigger the 240v 25A Solid State relay, carefully studied the wiring, and I switched it on, turns out that model didn't have an SC1 or it just had an SC to select the thermocouple type as it is only the basic PID controller model, bought a mini electric stove and turned the hob down to setting 2 at first I thought it wasn't working but after a while the PID locked onto the right temperature
[17:09:18] <SolarNRG> (55 in the test case) and when I came home it was solidly at 55 not going up or down. Seems the PID needs a few overshoots in order to work out how best to on/off the oven to get a steady temperature. Thanks u guys soo much but my next question is how do I ferment potatos?
[17:10:12] <SolarNRG> Oh when I first plugged it in and about to switch on for the first time I was real scared like, flicking the switch with a wooden broomstick handle but now I know I done my wiring correctly I'm real happy with it :))))
[17:14:08] <roycroft> solarnrg: two comments
[17:14:24] <roycroft> 1. ssrs leak voltage, and when they fail they almost invariably fail closed
[17:14:27] <roycroft> just be aware of that
[17:14:47] <SolarNRG> oooh so it could fail heating up and up and up?
[17:15:11] <SolarNRG> and like even in off mode u can still get a shock?
[17:15:11] <roycroft> on my pid-based switching systems i use a contactor in front of the ssr, so i can kill power to the contactor and be sure there is no voltage on the heating element
[17:15:27] <roycroft> you can also take an alarm output from the pid to kill power to the contactor
[17:15:38] <roycroft> 2. your pid has a learning mode
[17:16:01] <roycroft> where it overshoots, undershoots, etc. a number of times, and then auto-calculates the optimal pid parameters for your system
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[17:16:14] <roycroft> the learning mode can take a long time but i recommend you run it
[17:16:34] <roycroft> especially if you're not familiar with pid controllers you should let it auto-train and not try to tweak the parameters yourself
[17:17:16] <roycroft> regarding my first point, some argue that there's absolutely no need for a contactor
[17:17:45] <roycroft> i would argue that when you're dealing with the kind of current that you are, a belt and suspenders approach, especially since contactors are so inexpensive, is prudent
[17:18:05] <roycroft> 25a isn't a huge amount of current, but it can cause damage or injury
[17:18:11] <SolarNRG> ok here's a photo of my setup have a look: http://i.imgur.com/rZE0ZFb.jpg
[17:18:32] <roycroft> so you can take an alarm output
[17:18:47] <roycroft> a nc one
[17:18:49] <SolarNRG> the manual says thats what some of the outputs are for yeah u can hook the alarm up to a speaker
[17:19:02] <SolarNRG> but all the wires on the other side aren't hooked up except the Ktype
[17:19:03] <roycroft> program the pid to open the alarm contact when you get to, say 10c over your setpoint
[17:19:29] <roycroft> and run your contactor control line through that alarm contact
[17:19:41] <SolarNRG> well that's no good because the first time I ran it it went 18 degrees over the top
[17:19:49] <roycroft> if you overshoot by 10 degrees the contactor turns off and kills power to the ssr
[17:19:54] <SolarNRG> 2nd time it went 12 degrees ott
[17:19:56] <roycroft> i'm using an arbitrary number as an example
[17:19:58] <SolarNRG> 3rd time like 5 degrees
[17:20:09] <SolarNRG> ok ok
[17:20:09] <roycroft> and once you auto-tune the pid you probably won't overshoot like that any more
[17:20:11] <SolarNRG> I getcha
[17:20:27] <SolarNRG> every time I flick off at the mains will it forget?
[17:20:34] <roycroft> most pids remember
[17:20:47] <SolarNRG> or what if I'm heating a different pan, different volume, different composition of sludge?
[17:20:53] <roycroft> they store their current programming with nvram
[17:21:04] <roycroft> if you change any of that you need to retune the pid
[17:21:14] <SolarNRG> (nv) ??? Random Access Memory?
[17:21:16] <roycroft> if you switch around often i recommend you buy multiple pids
[17:21:26] <roycroft> non-volatile ram
[17:21:28] <SolarNRG> I thought when no power was in RAM it forgets everything
[17:21:37] <roycroft> depends on the type of ram
[17:21:44] <SolarNRG> cos I looked inside the PID couldn't see no flash card or nothing in there
[17:21:48] <SolarNRG> no hard drive for sure
[17:21:55] <roycroft> there will be a flash chip
[17:22:02] <SolarNRG> a bit like an atmega?
[17:22:02] <roycroft> it only needs a tiny amount of nvram
[17:22:09] <SolarNRG> or a pic
[17:22:10] <roycroft> something like that
[17:22:19] <pcw_home> could be flash in the CPU
[17:22:20] <SolarNRG> I thought that was eeprom !?
[17:22:31] <roycroft> could be
[17:22:35] <roycroft> i don't know your pid
[17:22:37] <roycroft> it doesn't matter
[17:22:45] <SolarNRG> its a rex c100
[17:22:50] <pcw_home> could be EEPROM in the CPU
[17:22:53] <roycroft> what matters is that it has some mechanism to store the parameters
[17:22:55] <SolarNRG> that's the make and model its the real deal japanese made
[17:23:06] <roycroft> honestly, i don't care
[17:23:24] <roycroft> it will store your settings
[17:23:27] <roycroft> that's what i care about
[17:23:35] <roycroft> how it does so is irrelevant
[17:23:38] <SolarNRG> tbh nether do I I jsut care about can I make some strong assed hooch before xmas day!?
[17:23:53] <roycroft> if you power cycle it it will remember its tuning and other parameters
[17:24:14] <SolarNRG> the theory is now it works, I want to use it to pre-boil the methanol off the hooch before cranking it up todistill the ethanol
[17:24:28] <roycroft> unless you live in new zealand, home distilling is illegal and i don't like to discuss illegal activities
[17:24:49] <roycroft> i prefer a don't ask, don't tell policy when it comes to things like that
[17:24:51] <SolarNRG> I am on an island in the mediterranian and distilling alcohol is not prohbited in this country :)
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[17:25:16] <SolarNRG> they sell moonshine of their own (poorly done) at car boot sales here
[17:25:20] <SolarNRG> and pirate dvds
[17:25:34] <SolarNRG> 3rd world democracy :)
[17:25:44] <SolarNRG> in ur country maybe a problem but not here
[17:25:47] <zeeshan|2> roycroft: its legal to brew alcohol
[17:25:49] <zeeshan|2> for self consumption.
[17:25:54] <zeeshan|2> :-)
[17:26:00] <SolarNRG> and for freinds and family ;)
[17:26:07] <zeeshan|2> at least in canada it is.
[17:26:07] -!- syyl_ has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:26:08] <zeeshan|2> :D
[17:26:40] <SolarNRG> besides out of a 2 gallon pressure cooker how much do u think I could honestly make? like a pint of spirits at best?
[17:27:52] <SolarNRG> its just a gimmick but I'm doing it as a hobby more than anything started off with desalinating sea water and someone suggested the idea and last night I got to work on the PID system
[17:28:06] <SolarNRG> I guess the temptation of making free booze was highly motivating for me
[17:31:14] <SolarNRG> I had that PID from like a year ago and sketched out when someone told me it could KILL me, but now I've put it all together it makes total sense now
[17:33:20] <SolarNRG> 2 questions: 1: can I use the PID to optimize the temperature of the pressure cooker for fermentation, i.e whatever the optimum is for yeast turning sugar into ethanol is like 35 degrees or whatever? And 2: Can Lexi use the PID system to make molten chocolate without burning it?
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[17:36:49] <pcw_home> Its a temperature controller, so yes it can control temperature....
[17:38:25] <SolarNRG> What I made today is like sooooo useful, why don't normal ovens have this?
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[18:04:06] <SolarNRG> oh yeah sorry if ur in the US who did u all vote for?
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[18:06:19] <zeeshan|2> okay this is pretty frigging cool
[18:06:24] <zeeshan|2> apparently behind the vertical head
[18:06:31] <zeeshan|2> is a horizontal spindle
[18:06:38] <zeeshan|2> to turn the machine into a horizontal mill!
[18:06:47] <zeeshan|2> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ti3t81sxkky36in/AACTgdKCui6iiMijDHfAkmFka?dl=0#lh:null-IMG_4828.jpg
[18:06:53] <zeeshan|2> it's more exposed in asah's machine
[18:06:55] <zeeshan|2> !seen asah
[18:06:55] <the_wench> last seen in 2014-10-28 06:08:13GMT 203:58:42 ago, saying Quit: asah
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[18:09:25] <FinboySlick> zeeshan|2: Nifty scraping on that mill too.
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[18:10:24] <FinboySlick> zeeshan|2: Did it come that way or was it re-scraped?
[18:13:46] <zeeshan|2> comes like that
[18:13:51] <zeeshan|2> not my mill
[18:13:58] <zeeshan|2> but its same on mine
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[20:08:15] <f1oat> hello, just discovered Controllino (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/24519005/controllino-plc-arduino-compatible): can be very useful for our CNC machines
[20:10:47] <Zewwy> I love kickstarter
[20:10:54] <Zewwy> so many awesome ideas have come to life thanks to it
[20:11:16] <Zewwy> Like the Hack-RF
[20:12:39] <Zewwy> but that is the coolest PLC I've ever seen
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[20:15:08] <Zewwy> only 44 hours to go...., oh awsome it just reached it pledge required... their timeline is amazingly short too... get your device by January? '15
[20:15:15] <f1oat> Yes, Hack-RF is nice. Airspy too, with 12 bits ADC
[20:15:49] <Zewwy> Haven't heard of teh Airspy....
[20:16:01] <PCW> why would you use a such a weak processor nowadays?
[20:16:20] <Zewwy> cost?
[20:16:27] <PCW> nope
[20:16:37] <Zewwy> availablilty?
[20:16:42] <PCW> nope
[20:16:53] <Zewwy> doesn't need any faster?
[20:16:59] <PCW> nope
[20:17:14] <CaptHindsight> obsession with AT mega?
[20:17:16] <Zewwy> are you saying its a flop before its begun
[20:17:21] <PCW> Bingo!
[20:17:38] <Zewwy> hahaha don't know which one was the bingo
[20:17:55] <CaptHindsight> obsession the new mindset
[20:18:08] <Zewwy> by calvin klein
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[20:19:00] <CaptHindsight> $6 gets you a 1-2GHz 32b ARM soc with 2+ cores
[20:19:54] <CaptHindsight> and there are several micros with more power and features than ATmega for less cost
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[20:20:27] <PCW> ~$3 gets you a 72 MHz arm with floating point and 4X 5 MS/sec 12 bit A-Ds
[20:21:23] <CaptHindsight> ST has several
[20:21:23] -!- nofxx [nofxx!~nofxx@unaffiliated/nofxx] has joined #linuxcnc
[20:22:18] <Zewwy> 16 MHz is loking pethetic then
[20:22:32] <f1oat> Is there any alreay available opensource software PLC with ARM SOC ?
[20:23:38] <CaptHindsight> open source for what parts?
[20:23:54] <f1oat> the software
[20:25:18] <CaptHindsight> this can be an interesting discussion
[20:26:20] <CaptHindsight> most PLC applications require them to be easy to use and just work reliably over industrial conditions
[20:30:16] <f1oat> I agree, but depends on the context. For my own usage (hobby) I will be happy with a packaged PLC hardware and the hability to experiment with my own software.
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[20:42:38] <JT-Shop> that is priced about 3 times what it is worth
[20:42:39] <JT-Shop> http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Programmable_Controllers/CLICK_Series_PLCs_%28Stackable_Micro_Brick%29
[20:42:55] <JT-Shop> $69 and free programming software
[20:43:01] <JT-Shop> and industrial
[20:44:33] <CaptHindsight> I agree, but they are just making some quick money off the whole maker/DIY *duino fascination
[20:44:58] <CaptHindsight> it's not about making anything better, it's just pandering to that market
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[20:49:06] <FinboySlick> If their software is okay, it seems like a great learning tool though.
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[20:52:22] <f1oat> automationdirect: thanks, looks interesting too. I like the modular design.
[20:53:18] <MrSunshine> hmm in a closed loop stepper system .. what hapends when the drive faults ? as linuxcnc doesnt get any feedback information about position ... it wont know if it fauled at say -1mm from coded position and position errors will be there? or after a fault is a homing cycle done? =)
[20:54:15] <PCW> closed loop step drives have a fault output
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[20:55:18] <MrSunshine> yes, but after a fault you cannot just try and resume right? but have to do a home cycle so the machine (liuxcnc) knows its position
[20:55:33] <MrSunshine> as the error can be off from programmed position when it faults
[20:55:34] <PCW> depends on the drive
[20:56:03] <MrSunshine> btw, anyone know about closed loop steppers vs open loop .. thinking rpm etc ? =)
[20:56:12] <CaptHindsight> a drive can fault for several reasons
[20:56:30] <PCW> same RPM limitation as normal stepmotors
[20:56:30] <MrSunshine> atm im running my open loop in 720rpm at full speed .. and id like to increase this =)
[20:57:03] <MrSunshine> PCW, from what ive read here and there it seems they can go alot faster tahn normal open loop steppers ?
[20:57:08] <CaptHindsight> if the drive faults and Linuxcnc doesn't get any encoder input then yes you'd have to Home it again
[20:58:02] <PCW> close loop will have the same torque curve
[20:58:08] <CaptHindsight> a steppers power output doesn't change if it's open or closed loop
[20:58:29] <CaptHindsight> if you need more power at higher rpm you might want to look at servos
[20:58:36] <PCW> its a motor /drive voltage characteristic
[20:58:43] <SpeedEvil> Aliens.
[20:58:51] <CaptHindsight> or find a stepper that has more power at the higher rpm
[20:59:06] <PCW> well a closed loop step motor drive _is_ a servo drive
[20:59:44] <CaptHindsight> but that depends on if you want to go from say 750rpm you currently top at and 900rpm or 3krpm
[20:59:55] <PCW> but its a 2 phase 50 pole servo drive
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[21:00:30] <PCW> so if you want to go slow you chose a motor with lots of poles..
[21:01:09] <PCW> (like a step motor)
[21:01:18] <MrSunshine> been reading some about it and seems taht "pure" servo drives has overshoot problems ? or is that just a tuning thing ?
[21:01:36] <PCW> yes thats tuning
[21:01:36] <MrSunshine> while closed loop steppers have the same characteristics as ordenary steppers with dead stops etc
[21:01:50] <PCW> nope, same issues
[21:03:33] <PCW> one advantage of close loop step motor systems is that when idle they can go into a quasi stepmotor
[21:03:35] <PCW> mode and have some holding torque without +-1 encoder count dithering that servos often have
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[21:04:18] <PCW> (better servo systems get around this with very high resolution encoders)
[21:04:30] <PCW> but thats $$
[21:05:04] <MrSunshine> but i wouldnt get any speed gains from a closed loop system? /: sure i want the closed loop anyhow but was hoping for some speed gain =)
[21:07:26] <CaptHindsight> whats the power range of your current stepper motor?
[21:08:10] <MrSunshine> hmm ..in holding torque its 1.8Nm
[21:08:25] <MrSunshine> (overclocked with 4.2A insted of 4A)
[21:08:30] <MrSunshine> so a slight bit more i guess :P
[21:09:01] <CaptHindsight> how much faster do you want to go?
[21:09:21] <CaptHindsight> 10%, 100%, 500%?
[21:09:22] <MrSunshine> atleast double my current speed
[21:09:29] <MrSunshine> 3600mm/min now ...
[21:10:19] <MrSunshine> the drive system is a 5mm lead ballscrew ... =)
[21:10:21] <CaptHindsight> have you run the numbers for the screws and loads to see if they can handle that well?
[21:11:19] <MrSunshine> nah ... stuff like that ive never thought of ... explain ? =)
[21:12:49] <CaptHindsight> http://www.thomsonlinear.com/downloads/articles/specifying_selecting_applying_linear_ball_screw_drives_taen.pdf
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[21:14:21] <CaptHindsight> is this a retrofit machine or something DIY from scratch?
[21:14:41] <MrSunshine> DIY scratch
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[21:15:34] <MrSunshine> i guess i could get higher speeds going away from ballscrews
[21:15:43] <CaptHindsight> did you buy a ballscrew positioner or did you buy a ballscrew and make the axis?
[21:15:46] <MrSunshine> get a butload of torque transfer with ballscrews =)
[21:15:59] <MrSunshine> CaptHindsight, huh ? ballscrew positioner? :P
[21:16:20] <CaptHindsight> have a pic of the machine?
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[21:16:53] <CaptHindsight> how did you specify the ballscrew and motor that you are currently using?
[21:17:00] <MrSunshine> https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/1604955_10152153395928648_760491462_n.jpg?oh=62d03a9ca67d91d64c6a3f2d8d915de2&oe=54F7B25D does that link work ?
[21:17:12] <MrSunshine> CaptHindsight, i bought it, i put it on
[21:17:14] <MrSunshine> voila
[21:17:49] <CaptHindsight> which axis do you want to speed up?
[21:18:00] <MrSunshine> X and Y
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[21:19:09] <CaptHindsight> what did you use for the linear bearings?
[21:19:28] <MrSunshine> those are V groove bearings
[21:19:41] <CaptHindsight> cam bearings?
[21:19:47] <PetefromTn_> Do those new hybrid stepper/servos have feedback that can be hooked to linuxCNC?
[21:19:50] <MrSunshine> what do you mean ?
[21:20:26] <PetefromTn_> I was under the impression they were just closed loop to the drive
[21:20:48] <CaptHindsight> http://www.mygoodstuff.com/kiit8353-2.jpg v-groove like this?
[21:21:05] <PetefromTn_> MrSunshine That looks like a pretty decent little router.
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[21:21:11] <MrSunshine> CaptHindsight, yes
[21:21:34] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, thanks =) built with angle grinder, a drill press and hand tools =)
[21:22:07] <MrSunshine> and a lathe .. ofc :P
[21:22:09] <PetefromTn_> does the Vee groove bearing just use its weight to hold to the track or does it have dual bearings on top and bottom
[21:22:42] <MrSunshine> just weight and on the non driving end there is a spring support
[21:23:13] <PetefromTn_> I like it, looks like sort of a mini mechmate
[21:23:26] <MrSunshine> i want to change the system tho .. didnt like it very much as all instability (the Z is quite heavy so on the far end of X it sways when it accelrates)
[21:23:34] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, its inspired by mechmate
[21:23:48] <MrSunshine> tho built from my head =)
[21:23:52] <CaptHindsight> that will just get worse
[21:23:52] <PetefromTn_> I think that mechmate is a damn good design
[21:24:03] <MrSunshine> CaptHindsight, yes i know ...
[21:24:10] <CaptHindsight> it need to be more rigid
[21:24:15] <MrSunshine> but its the rapids i want to get higher speeds on
[21:24:20] <MrSunshine> atm
[21:24:39] <PetefromTn_> Can you add a bottom mount roller that is maybe spring loaded to hold it down or something
[21:25:06] <PetefromTn_> hard to tell from the picture how it is built
[21:25:22] <MrSunshine> https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/p417x417/1235506_10151856091283648_819951988_n.jpg?oh=8af091a2d61d8f4b5267a6149514ca02&oe=54E77F33&__gda__=1424853081_fa34438fd7c57a83f8b996c408adaa5d
[21:25:30] <MrSunshine> tho i changed it to be 1 .. the friction got very high
[21:25:43] <MrSunshine> that is non driving end
[21:26:05] <MrSunshine> hmm ... i might even have one on the driving end also
[21:26:20] <MrSunshine> https://www.facebook.com/system2/media_set?set=a.10151350043433648.504108.682103647&type=3 does that link work ? =)
[21:26:23] <PetefromTn_> oh so the long axis only gets driven from one end then
[21:26:41] <CaptHindsight> This content is currently unavailable
[21:27:13] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, Y movement is driven by two ends giving a wire in a cross pattern under the machine =)
[21:27:31] <MrSunshine> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151350043433648.504108.682103647&type=1&l=c72ad877a2
[21:27:33] <MrSunshine> that then ?
[21:28:18] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, was only one side drive on the Y before ... and it almost derailed on fast turns :P
[21:29:05] <CaptHindsight> sounds like you're already past the design limits
[21:29:22] <PetefromTn_> yeah maybe you can adapt a second screw on the other end tied to the first one with timing belts or something.
[21:29:59] <PetefromTn_> I have seen that cross cable setup on copier machine mechanisms and it works okay for a lightweight movement but that is pretty heavy.
[21:31:07] <PetefromTn_> is that a 4x4?
[21:32:00] <PetefromTn_> looks pretty well built otherwise everything is steel and bolted or welded. I am going to build something like that mechmate at some point after I get this CNC lathe retrofit.
[21:32:02] <MrSunshine> CaptHindsight, well no mater ... i want to up the speeds .. if that fails i will lower them again .. if the machine can do it isnt important. . whats important is that the motors/drivers can do it =)
[21:32:26] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, whole machine envelop is about 160x160cm
[21:33:00] <MrSunshine> 5.3 feet i guess, and i can do 120x120 sheets in it ... that would be 4x4 right? =)
[21:33:12] <PetefromTn_> nice
[21:34:05] <PetefromTn_> so you are getting 140 IPM or so now. I can see why you would want to double that.
[21:34:07] <MrSunshine> but im going to build new machine in the future .. just started my own company and gonna try and get to sell some stuff i make with the machine ... to hopefully be able to first upgrade this one then start to build on a new one =)
[21:34:40] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, mm ... i can push the machine to 4500mm/min (motors) but then i get random stalls :/
[21:34:47] <MrSunshine> can go fine for an hour then wooom
[21:34:54] <PetefromTn_> stalls or missed steps..
[21:34:58] <MrSunshine> stalls
[21:35:17] <PetefromTn_> I would have thought you would be missing steps before you got to stalling.
[21:35:30] <MrSunshine> might be
[21:35:43] <MrSunshine> only thing ive noticed is hard stalling tho =)
[21:35:49] <MrSunshine> and then it ruins everything! :P
[21:35:58] <PetefromTn_> If you are running ballscrew drive on a machine that large you really would be better off with a servomotor
[21:37:11] <PetefromTn_> you will get a lot more potential speed without the torque dropoff and you would be able to run linuxCNC closed loop and not have to worry about missed steps.
[21:37:46] <MrSunshine> rack and pinion would be nice but
[21:37:57] <PetefromTn_> Most larger routers use either rack and pinion drive, timing belt drives, or something like that
[21:38:24] <MrSunshine> i bought timing belts that was supposed to go on the machine ... but never made it =)
[21:39:00] <MrSunshine> might be an option tho to put that on .. and closed loop steppers on that
[21:39:14] <MrSunshine> tho wouldnt one lose alot of torque ? =)
[21:39:27] <PetefromTn_> since it is already setup with ballscrew you would be probably better off just switching to servos on the X and Y at least it might be easier than rebuiding the whole drive system
[21:39:55] <MrSunshine> thing is that "rebuild" of the whole drive system isnt that hard =)
[21:39:58] <PetefromTn_> unless what you have is giving you problems and there are other reasons to change the drive.
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[21:40:10] <MrSunshine> just put the timing belt under the rails stickout and jack the motor on there =)
[21:40:43] <PetefromTn_> yeah but you would need mounts, pullies, tensioners, etc etc.
[21:40:45] <MrSunshine> i have other projects i could use the ballscrews for later also ... cnc wood lathe ... small one =)
[21:41:46] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, not a problem ... as ive built the machine so far and everyhthing is built to be bolt on =) the "shield" that holds the ballnut is exchanged with one that would hold the motor and a couple of pulleys =)
[21:42:09] <MrSunshine> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/1005366_10151836852923648_362473394_n.jpg?oh=c9aea9ab942d107c985ecaa3f7dc0990&oe=54D6AFC1&__gda__=1425564059_e251caeff8fd678e2cbe036f8b78163d that thing =)
[21:42:49] <MrSunshine> might actualy be a fun project in the dark of winter here =)
[21:42:53] <PetefromTn_> well that is your decision man. Just making suggestions.
[21:43:04] <MrSunshine> as ive got the belt ... all i need is a pulley =)
[21:43:31] <PetefromTn_> you might find that while the ballscrew setup is slow you are probably getting reasonably good accuracy from it
[21:43:57] <MrSunshine> im getting hell of a good acuracy of it ... thats a big plus with ballscrew =)
[21:44:03] <PetefromTn_> yeah
[21:44:20] <PetefromTn_> like I said if it were mine I would probably just get speedier motors LOL
[21:44:44] <PetefromTn_> but I have a reputation for loving servos and closed loop :D
[21:45:01] <MrSunshine> but servo system is atleast double the money from closed loop steppers
[21:45:19] <MrSunshine> and then i need a servo control card for the pc i guess also
[21:45:47] <PetefromTn_> actually if you are going chinese hobby stuff you might find there is not that much difference in price at least that is what I have found on the larger more powerful motors
[21:47:25] <PetefromTn_> my new lathe I just bought has nema 34 motors and came with AC servos.
[21:47:43] <PetefromTn_> they were like 750 watt but only about 410 OZ in torque
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[21:47:54] <PetefromTn_> so I have been eyeballing all motor options
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[21:48:29] <PetefromTn_> The closed loop steppers are just a bit less money than a servo motor and driver.
[21:49:21] <MrSunshine> any drives/motors you could recommend then ?
[21:49:51] <PetefromTn_> meh the usual suspects. All chinese for price considerations.
[21:50:05] <PetefromTn_> I hear good things about the DMM servos and drives
[21:50:21] <PetefromTn_> My Cincinatti has Teco motors and drives but they are more commercial larger motors
[21:50:32] <PetefromTn_> Are you using nema 23 or 34 or what?
[21:50:51] <MrSunshine> 23 the machine is made for atm ... tho i coul dmake new motor mounting plates
[21:51:20] <PetefromTn_> my RF45 had Keling inc 1100 OZ in motors that were brushed DC servos.
[21:51:54] <PetefromTn_> If you are not running in a coolant environment they would work quite well but the brushed motors need maintenance on the brushes occasionally
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[21:53:37] <PetefromTn_> you would probably double your speed easily and have closed loop feedback with that ballscrew but it would take a lot of work and setup as you said. I understand the closed loop steppers are not really any faster or more powerful than typical steppers
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[21:54:38] <PetefromTn_> which begs the question, if a PROPERLY setup stepper machine does not loose steps then what is the point of a closed loop stepper other than the fact that you will know when it loses steps..
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[21:55:35] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, well its not fun to ruin work that might have been in the machine for hours just cause i didnt have closed loop =)
[21:55:53] <PCW> Efficiency is one advantage and potentially higher accuracy
[21:55:56] <PetefromTn_> Believe me I understand completely
[21:56:22] <PetefromTn_> how is the closed loop stepper more efficient or potentially more accurate>?
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[21:57:03] <PCW> plus a closed loop step drive cannot really stall in the same way that a open loop step motor can
[21:57:32] <PetefromTn_> how is it more efficient or accurate?
[21:57:33] <MrSunshine> i think its there that the speed gain that ive read about comes from
[21:57:40] <MrSunshine> that it wont stall out
[21:57:49] <PCW> more efficient since like a normal servo, motor torque is only applied when needed
[21:57:49] <MrSunshine> and if it does realy stall out it errors
[21:58:27] <MrSunshine> hell ill test a closed loop stepper system ... its only 5500sek payed and done for .. if it doesnt work i have some more electronics to play with later :P
[21:58:34] <PetefromTn_> I thought a stepper only applies torque when it is being driven
[21:58:49] <PCW> an open loop applies full current all the time (its trying to pull the rotor apart)
[21:58:57] <MrSunshine> a closed loop stepper is supposed to be more like a servo as far as i can tell
[21:59:08] <PCW> it _is_ a servo
[21:59:43] <MrSunshine> ok then =)
[22:00:50] <PCW> when an open loop step drive is not moving, full current is appled so full force is applied to the rotor (but the force is radial)
[22:00:53] <PetefromTn_> I really don't understand how the hybrid steppers work. I was under the impression they were just a Stepper IE multi pole motor with encoder and that the drive just senses the position error and faults if it gets beyond a certain point.
[22:01:16] <CaptHindsight> just for reference a used AC servo motor and drive would be <$1k ea
[22:01:36] <PCW> close loop step drives are just special servo drives
[22:01:56] <CaptHindsight> including the encoders
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[22:02:11] <PetefromTn_> CaptHindsight I bought my LARGE commercial AC motors, drives and premade cables for less than that.
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[22:02:32] <CaptHindsight> good deal
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[22:02:56] <PetefromTn_> you can buy AC servo and drive packages in Nema 34 for like $400 delivered on ebay nowadays
[22:04:07] <CaptHindsight> AC servo? or DC
[22:04:12] <PetefromTn_> AC
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[22:05:21] <CaptHindsight> have a link?
[22:05:53] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/130ST-M06025-1-5KW-6N-M-AC-servo-motor-kits-include-servor-motor-and-servo-drive-/161454973954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2597776402 Trying to find one But here is a much larger more powerful one
[22:06:17] <PetefromTn_> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-750W-0-75KW-ac-servo-motor-servo-driver-2-39N-M-80ST-80ST-M02430-3000RPM/161454973914?_trksid=p2047675.c100010.m2109&_trkparms=aid%3D555012%26algo%3DPW.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D27538%26meid%3Dd50edf527fc9448488e2392fe74bfc03%26pid%3D100010%26prg%3D11353%26rk%3D7%26rkt%3D24%26sd%3D161454973954
[22:06:26] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:07:22] <CaptHindsight> thanks
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[22:08:03] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, what more would one need then ? some kind of control card ?
[22:08:21] <PetefromTn_> I have no experience with these but there are many like that. Basically unless you spend a LOT more money everything is made in China for this nowadays.
[22:08:45] <PetefromTn_> Well I use the Mesanet stuff
[22:08:58] <PetefromTn_> 5i25/7i77 for closed loop servo control
[22:09:05] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ebay.com/itm/YASKAWA-SGMPH-15AAA2C-AC-Servo-Motor-1-5kW-1500W-/121237842058 $362
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[22:09:35] <PetefromTn_> yeah I saw those. They don't have actual photos and they are used items unfortunately
[22:10:55] <PetefromTn_> It amazes me that when you look at all the different motors and drives offered on like Alibaba that we are not flooded with companies reselling this stuff here.
[22:11:26] <PetefromTn_> Can it all be junk? I guess maybe but who knows...
[22:11:56] <PetefromTn_> I know my Teco stuff is all chinese and it works looks and feels great.
[22:12:25] <MrSunshine> so a complete system for 2 axes for me would be like 10000sek ..that once again is double the closed loop stepper :P
[22:12:32] <MrSunshine> tho i might get 3 times the speed ...
[22:12:51] <PetefromTn_> how is it double the closed loop stepper?
[22:13:03] <MrSunshine> 5500sek for closed loop steppers
[22:13:27] <PetefromTn_> for what size and torque rating? Do you have a link?
[22:13:40] <MrSunshine> 4Nm
[22:13:45] <MrSunshine> its from zapp automation
[22:14:05] <PetefromTn_> Also keep in mind that unless I am mistaken you have to have power supplies for the steppers which you most likely already have since you are already stepper.
[22:14:05] <MrSunshine> http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/es-d808-easy-servo-drive.html
[22:14:19] <MrSunshine> 3Nm ... it was
[22:14:31] <MrSunshine> http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/es-m22430-3nm-holding-torque.html
[22:14:36] <PetefromTn_> But the servo drives are usually 220v input direct and need no power supply
[22:14:41] <MrSunshine> yeah but my psu might be a bit underpowered if i up the steppers
[22:16:33] <PetefromTn_> where are you located?
[22:16:57] <PCW> If you use close loop you may not need so large a supply
[22:17:52] <PetefromTn_> Those look to be like the leadshine drives I think or at least have the similar case. I hear good things about them.
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[22:21:11] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, sweden
[22:21:34] <PetefromTn_> aah
[22:21:45] <MrSunshine> there are leadshine drives that goes for 230VAC also but those gets a bit more expensive =)
[22:23:17] <MrSunshine> like i said .. ill try them out ... atleast to get my own experience ... i will get a slew of money here in a month or so ... will buy both the closed loop stepper drivers and vectric aspire software =)
[22:24:54] <PetefromTn_> Well in that case go for it. I am curious how they work for you. I am not ANTI stepper really at all just that there are certain situations where a stepper is the best choice and ones where it is not. It would be wonderful to know that a hybrid stepper system can actually work like a servo system at a much lower cost
[22:25:32] <renesis> feedback steppers are weird
[22:25:36] <PetefromTn_> for the size and power of motors I am needing that does not seem to be the case so far that I have seen
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[22:25:57] <renesis> with servos, youre not where you want to be, you push harder until youre where you want to be or your give up
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[22:26:08] <renesis> with steppers, its probably the opposite
[22:26:14] <PetefromTn_> the price of a suitable sized stepper motor to servo motor complete with driver brand new is not all that different
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[22:26:33] <renesis> if youre not where you want to be, you prob pushed too hard, better to back off
[22:26:48] <PetefromTn_> renesis Do you have a system running feedback steppers?
[22:26:57] <renesis> no open loop
[22:27:09] <renesis> you push too hard, it skips
[22:27:11] <PetefromTn_> Okay
[22:28:02] <renesis> just interesting that they react differently to loading and more input
[22:28:10] <PetefromTn_> for slower speed motors with good holding torque when properly sized an open loop stepper system can be just perfect really
[22:28:31] <Connor> Pete nema 23 or nama 34 ?
[22:29:00] <Connor> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema34-closed-loop-stepper-motor-system-hybrid-servo-kit/nema-34-hybrid-servo-motor-kl34-8n-1000-rated-torque-1128-oz-in
[22:29:04] <renesis> well, if i dont feed stupid deep and i dont rapid at more than 3/4 what it can racing around for speed, i dont have issues
[22:29:08] <PetefromTn_> well like I said I can put whatever I want but the motors that were on there are 3" square faced which is like Nema 34 mostly
[22:29:16] <renesis> like, its actually pretty mind blowing how well it does
[22:29:49] <PetefromTn_> Connor Yeah I have seen all of those.
[22:30:00] <PetefromTn_> You still have to add in the cost of the power supply
[22:30:04] <renesis> oh that kids makes the drive look like a servo?
[22:30:11] <renesis> *kit
[22:30:23] <PetefromTn_> and the cost is just a bit less than that servo setup I just posted
[22:30:58] <renesis> seems neat if you already have the stepper
[22:31:09] <Connor> and, it's only closed loop to the driver..
[22:31:20] <PetefromTn_> worst part is if you look at the torque curves it drops off pretty badly at any real speed.
[22:31:24] <renesis> its step/dir open loop input?
[22:31:41] <renesis> does it have some sort of fault signal?
[22:31:49] <PetefromTn_> apparently
[22:32:10] <PetefromTn_> They would be a lot more appealing if you could close the loop back to linuxCNC
[22:32:30] <Connor> you can close loop a stepper to linuxcnc.
[22:32:46] <PetefromTn_> as it is they are not any different from my Gecko G320's and brushed DC servos
[22:32:52] <PetefromTn_> with Mach3
[22:33:08] <PetefromTn_> I could only hope to get a fault when the motor was not cooperating
[22:33:08] <Connor> you use a normal open loop control.. but, run the stepper in velocity mode vs step/dir(still uses step/dir to move servo) and take the encoder input into linuxcnc
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[22:33:37] <PetefromTn_> you can do that with the new drives?
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[22:33:58] <Connor> I could do that with MY drives.. no need to a closed loop driver
[22:34:00] <PetefromTn_> at least you would have some kinda feeback
[22:34:21] <PetefromTn_> are you going to do that with your build now?
[22:34:29] <Connor> No. No encoders
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[22:34:33] <renesis> right if i was going to go through the trouble of putting encoders on steppers, id want the controller to be able to try and fix something
[22:34:40] <renesis> or at least know how bad shit is
[22:34:59] <renesis> as opposed to just having a stop signal
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[22:37:33] <Tom_itx> Connor how do you handle reverse on your spindle?
[22:37:45] <Tom_itx> or does it just work...
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[22:37:54] <Tom_itx> i'm thinking of adding a relay to mine
[22:38:16] <Tom_itx> not sure the mosfets will like it if i don't stop before reversing
[22:38:25] <Connor> I have a kbcc-125r 2 Relays.. one for on/off.. on for cw/ccw
[22:38:46] <Connor> but, the relay doesn't reverse the DC load.. it toggles the reverse on the Reversing module on the controller.
[22:38:59] <Tom_itx> oh
[22:39:16] <Connor> http://www.kbelectronics.com/manuals/kbcc_manual.pdf first page explains
[22:39:20] <Tom_itx> why do you need a relay to switch the controller?
[22:39:26] <Tom_itx> it's not ttl level?
[22:39:44] <Connor> They set it up for switches (low current switches)
[22:40:16] <Tom_itx> i saw a nice motor for a sherline but they cost way too much
[22:40:38] <Connor> To be honest. I probably could replace the spindle controller with a Brushed DC Servo Amp and be better off.
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[22:40:57] <Tom_itx> you think that would work on my dc motor?
[22:41:15] <Connor> the KBCC-125R or DC Brushed servo amp ? :)
[22:41:34] <Tom_itx> i'd need a supply if i went with the DC brushed servo amp
[22:41:47] <Tom_itx> rather use line voltage into the control
[22:42:01] <Connor> Not much of one.. just something to rectify it to DC, and maybe a few caps.
[22:42:16] <Connor> unless the DC Brushed servo amp couldn't handle a full 120v
[22:42:39] <Connor> Your spindle have a encoder on it ?
[22:42:42] <Tom_L> the motor is rated for 90v
[22:42:51] <Tom_L> not with an index
[22:43:42] <Connor> You could still use 120v.. I think you could just limit the RPM
[22:43:45] <Connor> I think
[22:44:01] <Connor> why no index ?
[22:45:01] <Tom_L> made from a printer encoder
[22:46:27] <Tom_L> http://www.glockcnc.com/sherline%20taig%20motor%20upgrades.htm
[22:47:09] <Tom_L> http://www.glockcnc.com/sherline%20headstocks.htm
[22:47:33] <Connor> What is this for ? You have a sherline ?
[22:47:40] <Tom_L> yeah
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[22:50:23] <PetefromTn_> That would make a SWEET live tooling addition to a CNC lathe heh
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[22:59:47] <Computer_Barf1> Connor: do you think that the G0704 has the potential to be a profitable machine?
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[23:00:09] <Connor> Computer_Barf1: Yes.
[23:00:18] <Connor> But, not sure HOW much so.
[23:01:21] <Computer_Barf1> yes ive been thinking so too but as a matter of what you make with it. Working out the margins on things seems like it would take some real live experimentation
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[23:01:53] <Computer_Barf1> *life not live.
[23:01:56] <JT-Shop> if you have a market for whatever you make it can be profitable
[23:02:10] <Connor> It would.. and to speed up production, you would make tooling fixtures..
[23:02:31] <Computer_Barf1> you mean like an plate with pins?
[23:03:14] <Connor> Or custom fixture to hold the specific part.. after a specific operation so you didn't have to indicate off the part again.. etc etc.
[23:04:19] <Computer_Barf1> I was thinking about the combination of casting aluminum + milling
[23:05:03] <Computer_Barf1> I mean, if your aluminum source is too expensive, it could have a significant effect on the cost of your final product
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[23:08:09] <Computer_Barf1> you could start buying aluminum from people at scrap cost , melt, pour into plates, face, flip over, face again, cut out something, PROFIT
[23:11:05] * JT-Shop would not want any parts that used home cast aluminum... too many defects and poor material with not specs
[23:11:23] <Computer_Barf1> I would think it would depend on what it is
[23:11:48] <Computer_Barf1> btw guys im selling a mars rover wheel assembly if any one wants a good deal
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[23:13:39] <MrSunshine> renesis, closed loop steppers push harder to get to where they want to be
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[23:13:48] <PetefromTn_> When it comes to creating and desiging a product for CNC machininig and profit in reality the aluminum it takes to make it in most circumstances is a very small part of the overall picture. At least it has been that way for me on many different products and projects.
[23:13:50] <Computer_Barf1> im just kidding, im only selling carabiners and load bearing climbing gear
[23:14:05] <MrSunshine> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZdCcLQc4M
[23:14:20] <JT-Shop> MrSunshine, steppers can only push so hard then then stall
[23:14:39] <MrSunshine> JT-Shop, closed loop
[23:14:50] <JT-Shop> don't matter a stepper is still a stepper
[23:14:55] <Computer_Barf1> PetefromTn_: I guess then the aluminum price is much better in bulk. Looking at some stuff on ebay it's like the expense of the aluminum could be much of the products value.
[23:14:57] <MrSunshine> seem to have some more algorithms to get out of stall then
[23:15:04] <MrSunshine> or atleast tehy fault
[23:15:25] <SpeedEvil> Computer_Barf1: it depends what you mean by bulk
[23:15:32] <MrSunshine> but i think they can give some extra grunt just like ordenary servo systems to try and push to position
[23:15:38] <MrSunshine> if they fail they error
[23:15:58] <SpeedEvil> Computer_Barf1: you've got ebay/amazon price, then you've got the price if you buy a bar at your local metal merchant - then you've got the price if you bring in acontainer from china
[23:16:06] <PetefromTn_> I have never bought aluminum in anything that could realistically be referred to as BULK...
[23:16:28] <SpeedEvil> I was surprised that I was quoted twice the spot price for only 2kg of lithium
[23:16:32] <SpeedEvil> From alibaba
[23:16:57] <Computer_Barf1> yes what i mean by bulk is the quantity a small buisness would consume, not bulk as in full containers from china
[23:17:33] <renesis> 03:15:40 < MrSunshine> renesis, closed loop steppers push harder to get to where they want to be
[23:17:48] <renesis> mrsunshine: harder basically means faster because current is usually fixed
[23:17:59] <SpeedEvil> harder better faster stronger.
[23:18:01] <renesis> steppers have problems with faster, they lose steps
[23:18:30] <MrSunshine> renesis, steppers current is dependant on voltage ... if you feed 40 volts into a stepper the current will be faar greater :P
[23:18:31] <SpeedEvil> sometimes
[23:18:33] <PCW> They lose torque, this is not chanegd by feedback
[23:18:44] <renesis> as opposed to a servo, where if youre behind because of load, you up current and get the motor to spin faster
[23:18:47] <JT-Shop> steppers have the highest torque when standing still and doing nothing
[23:18:53] <renesis> the servo isnt going to go slower giving it more current
[23:19:01] <SpeedEvil> Most sane drives use constant current, not voltage to drive them
[23:19:16] <PCW> Peak torque of a servo = stepper rated stall torque
[23:19:16] <SpeedEvil> A '40V' drive does not put any more current through the stepper than a 20V drive
[23:19:18] <Computer_Barf1> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop-machines/157385-ryans-g0704.html
[23:19:19] <renesis> mrsunshine: what jt said
[23:19:27] <SpeedEvil> it will simply go faster at higher torque
[23:19:50] <Computer_Barf1> i found this thread to be interesting on the g0704, he used something in is electronics called a kflop
[23:19:53] <renesis> it has more kick to make the current happen faster through an inductive load
[23:20:03] <renesis> its like transconductance amps versus standard amps
[23:20:04] <Computer_Barf1> wondering what Connor: thinks of the kflop
[23:20:26] <Connor> Computer_Barf1: kflop = mach3
[23:20:40] <Connor> Computer_Barf1: Or some other Control.. I don't think LinuxCNC works with it.
[23:20:48] <Computer_Barf1> wahh wahh.
[23:20:55] <MrSunshine> the current in a stepper is set by the time the voltage is supplied to the coils
[23:20:55] <MrSunshine> sure if you go for rated voltage .. 2V 5A .. then yes. . its limited to 5A
[23:20:55] <MrSunshine> but push 40V for a given time into the windings and you will have some great fire power :P
[23:21:13] <JT-Shop> MrSunshine, look at the torqe vs speed charts here http://www.automationdirect.com/static/specs/surestepmotors.pdf
[23:21:16] <PCW> I think they have their own control (and Mach)
[23:21:31] <renesis> right but you dont typically vary current into the coils
[23:21:45] <renesis> well, you split current with microstepping
[23:21:56] <renesis> but youre not varying voltage to do it, youre varying pulse times
[23:22:23] * MrSunshine has written a micro stepper in avr ... and made his amp board for it =)
[23:22:24] <MrSunshine> yeah!
[23:22:28] <MrSunshine> fun stuffs to play with
[23:22:30] <MrSunshine> it sucked tho :P
[23:23:57] <MrSunshine> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0TjS0N0rwc =)
[23:24:35] <renesis> anyway, you shouldnt be holding back on current in normal lose speed operation
[23:24:46] <renesis> *low speed operation
[23:25:11] <renesis> like, if you have more current available to help with skips, you wouldnt have skipped in the first place if you used all current
[23:25:37] <MrSunshine> renesis, more current == more heat
[23:25:48] <renesis> um, yes
[23:25:49] <MrSunshine> for very short burts the coils can take higher current than rated
[23:26:02] <renesis> well thats another convo entirely
[23:26:10] <renesis> servo you fix error from loading by adding more power
[23:26:19] <renesis> steppers you fix error from loading by decreasing feed rate
[23:26:23] <PetefromTn_> I must admit that video showing the leadshine closed loop stepper is impressive
[23:26:32] <MrSunshine> yes, but does a closed loop stepper drive do that ?
[23:26:44] <renesis> hopefully linuxcnc does it
[23:26:44] <MrSunshine> overload for short periods to try and get out of a stall condition
[23:26:51] <MrSunshine> renesis, closed loop driver ...
[23:26:54] <renesis> prob a coin toss with external modules
[23:26:59] <MrSunshine> not feeding anything back to linuxcnc more than errors
[23:27:02] <renesis> it likely doesnt have the capability
[23:27:15] <renesis> because it cant signal the controller to slow down the other axis
[23:27:19] <PCW> No because you cannot exceed the full step motor current without risking demag
[23:27:23] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, i find that video quite interesting and its one of the reasons in concidering closed loop steppers
[23:27:30] <renesis> and i guess that is why closed loop driver, open loop control is strange
[23:27:49] <renesis> it cant fix things
[23:27:52] <renesis> it can only stop things
[23:28:01] <MrSunshine> renesis, that is true that it doesnt
[23:28:03] <renesis> so its a convenience thing? change your steppers to vector
[23:28:23] <PetefromTn_> I agree it is strange but the video shows it can maintain position to a point really well. I have no idea really how a typical stepper would react to that kind of abuse.
[23:28:23] <renesis> i dont know that linuxcnc will actually throttle back steppers in a closed loop system
[23:28:34] <renesis> but if i can figure it out, im pretty sure the devs can
[23:28:57] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, with the turn he does on that first thing he does a normal stepper would lose position instantly
[23:28:57] <MrSunshine> and take the closest cog it could
[23:29:04] <MrSunshine> that is energized
[23:29:15] <PCW> you could copy the encoder data back to linuxcnc
[23:29:20] <PetefromTn_> and it would not try to drive back to position
[23:29:24] <renesis> so this thing tries to go twice as fast to catch up?
[23:29:44] <MrSunshine> PetefromTn_, nop it would not
[23:29:50] <MrSunshine> as an open loop doesnt know where it is
[23:29:58] <renesis> because that wont work with steppers, if it skipped, trying to make it go faster is prob not going to work all the time
[23:30:02] <MrSunshine> its totaly happy with being 15 degrees off as long as the coils are energiezed :P
[23:30:12] <PCW> its a servo, it can be off 100 turns and catch up if its FE limits are large enough
[23:30:23] postaL_offline is now known as postaL
[23:31:14] <MrSunshine> oh well i will try the freakin things and report how they work ... as it seems no one here has tried closed loop steppers? =)
[23:31:23] <renesis> right because a servo you just give it all its got and if it cant catch up, you stop
[23:31:29] <PCW> Ive built them
[23:31:41] <MrSunshine> PCW, copying back encoder position to linuxcnc seems nice .. =)
[23:31:45] <MrSunshine> PCW, you ahve ?
[23:31:46] <MrSunshine> have
[23:32:12] <PCW> years ago (SoftDMC/7I32 will do closed loop)
[23:33:24] <MrSunshine> closed loop steppers is the most affordable for me now anyhow .. so i will try them ... its nice to get some own experience to as how they work .. what tehy are capable of etc also =)
[23:33:31] <MrSunshine> servo systems gets 2x as expensive fast
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[23:34:49] <MrSunshine> oh well now its time to sleep, thanks everyone who has been feeding information for your inputs! =)
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