#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-06-26

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[00:04:02] <Jymmm> If you were to chuck up a pen, what drawing would best show backlash?
[00:04:37] <mozmck> maybe a circle?
[00:05:12] <LeelooMinai> zig-zag? :)
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[00:06:34] <mozmck> not sure how well that would show it.
[00:07:22] <zeeshan|3> circle is the easiest
[00:07:23] <zeeshan|3> :p
[00:07:26] <mozmck> with a circle I would think you could see some anomalies where the axes reverse direction.
[00:07:27] <LeelooMinai> If you want to see backlash you must have pattern that changes dirrection, so first thing that I imagined is a zig-zag pattern
[00:08:33] <LeelooMinai> Then you can examine the vertices to see if the are "sharp"
[00:09:53] <mozmck> hmm, yes, I guess you would have a little flattening as it took up slack.
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[00:14:22] <LeelooMinai> So I read a bit about mesa firmware and it looks pretty good. It's modularized and can be easily resynthesized for custom needs and extended.
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[00:15:16] <LeelooMinai> I would probably need some spartan6 dev board to develop for it
[00:16:39] <LeelooMinai> Anyone here have done some customisation to mesa firmware?
[00:18:02] <Tom_itx> bit files
[00:18:04] <Tom_itx> yes
[00:18:20] <Tom_itx> why?
[00:18:54] <LeelooMinai> Just wondering about the experience. Did you just use the mesa card while developing?
[00:19:14] <Tom_itx> all i did was make custom bit files for my boards
[00:19:33] <Tom_itx> then wrote about it
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[00:19:44] <LeelooMinai> Ok, but custom how? you did not write any new VHDL?
[00:19:51] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.no-ip.biz:81/~webpage/emc/xilinx/xilinx14_install_index.php
[00:20:36] <Tom_itx> by calling instances of built in mesa functions
[00:20:51] <mozmck> I think PCW or pcw_home has done some customization to mesa firmware ;)
[00:20:57] <LeelooMinai> So what did you customize there?
[00:21:09] <Tom_itx> mozmck, quite a bit i'd say :D
[00:21:32] <Tom_itx> LeelooMinai, changed the function on some pins and added functions for others
[00:21:50] <Tom_itx> different from 'stock' pinouts
[00:22:20] <Tom_itx> i added sserial to my 7i43 so i could use an sserial card with it for one thing
[00:22:31] <LeelooMinai> I see. Do you know if Xilinx software is free for the size of fpga the mesa boards have? I think it's 400k or something like that
[00:22:40] <Tom_itx> it is
[00:22:54] <Tom_itx> not really free... it will eat up your hddd
[00:23:04] <mozmck> and download bandwidth
[00:23:12] <LeelooMinai> Ok, then it looks good. Maybe even someone wrote the code for those digital scales somewhere.
[00:23:29] <Tom_itx> http://www.xilinx.com/support/download/index.html/content/xilinx/en/downloadNav/design-tools.html
[00:23:31] <LeelooMinai> If not, it should not be too difficult to add it.
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[00:24:30] <Tom_itx> i didn't follow what you were trying to do but i'm not sure you would need to customize the mesa firmware
[00:24:37] <PCW> Those scales are pretty slow, might be able to do it with the twiddler interface
[00:24:57] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but doing it on fpga is much more elegant
[00:25:46] <PCW> not sure how elegant it is to interface to khz bitstreams with hardware :-)
[00:26:50] <LeelooMinai> It's a stream of data that will be coming in - doing averaging, decoding, etc. should be done on hardware - no need to burden cpu with it
[00:27:01] <PCW> the twiddler interface has a 100 MHz 8 bit processor for bitbanging...
[00:27:27] <LeelooMinai> Ok, maybe I should start with asking what is that twiddler:)
[00:27:38] <LeelooMinai> I thought it's some API
[00:28:15] <PCW> no its a tiny attached processor for low speed flexible I/O
[00:28:21] <jdh> anyone ever use DeoxIT(tm)?
[00:29:23] <LeelooMinai> PCW: I can decode it with any μC, but since I will use that mesa board anyways, it seems nicer to just take advantage of the resources it provides
[00:30:06] <PCW> one of those resources is a prebuilt interface processor
[00:31:01] <PCW> 1K ROM 512 byte RAM 100 Mhz (10 ns/inst)
[00:31:14] <LeelooMinai> The data coming from those scales is very simple - using some kind of generalized processor for it seems like overkill.
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[00:31:52] <mozmck> isn't that what an fpga is? ;)
[00:32:09] <Tom_itx> read it into an avr
[00:32:18] <PCW> Well then a shift register (with lots of digital filtering)
[00:32:22] <LeelooMinai> But it's already sitting there on the mesa card with spare cells
[00:32:43] <PCW> Just more work is all
[00:32:49] <mozmck> PCW: is the twiddler a soft processor?
[00:33:06] <LeelooMinai> NOt much work for such simple "protocol"
[00:33:10] <PCW> Yes
[00:33:30] <LeelooMinai> And I guess worth figuring the mesa firmware out, for future extensions.changes
[00:35:03] <PCW> by the time you double buffer/interlock, use multiple channels etc a processor is not that much of an expense
[00:35:23] <PCW> (only a few % of the FPGA)
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[00:35:42] <Tom_garage> damn netsplits
[00:35:53] <Tom_garage> logger[mah]
[00:35:54] <logger[mah]> Tom_garage: Log stored at http://linuxcnc.mah.priv.at/irc/%23linuxcnc/2014-06-26.html
[00:36:03] <LeelooMinai> If it would be some more complicated protocol, maybe
[00:36:15] <PCW> IICRC those scales have some interesting level shifting required
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[00:36:28] <LeelooMinai> They are 1.5V I believe
[00:36:36] <Tom_garage> PCW, which cards have that 'twiddler' on em?
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[00:36:50] <LeelooMinai> Isn't it a soft-core cpu?
[00:37:00] <PCW> I think its worse than that (positive ground)
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[00:37:16] <PCW> yes a tiny fast soft core CPU
[00:37:26] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, the articles I checked out, ver just clock + data, 1.5V, normal
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[00:37:34] <LeelooMinai> were*
[00:37:49] <PCW> any of our FPGA cards can have it
[00:37:53] <LeelooMinai> Two 23bit values
[00:37:58] <Tom_itx> PCW, what else are you hiding on those things??
[00:38:05] <LeelooMinai> Pretty simplistic
[00:38:14] <PCW> yeah but positive ground
[00:38:41] <mozmck> PCW: do you use Vivado or ISE now? I notice xilinx is sort of retiring ISE
[00:38:45] <PCW> so the clk and data swing negative relative to the case
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[00:38:59] <PCW> I still use ISE
[00:39:36] <mozmck> I don't see a webpack version - is that only for Vivado now?
[00:39:40] <LeelooMinai> PCW, btw, do you know some cheap spartan6 dev board?
[00:39:45] <PCW> haven't played with Vivado
[00:39:58] <LeelooMinai> I am googling right now, but so far, pretty expensive
[00:40:25] <PCW> there are some $49 ones (and our 7I90 is $59)
[00:40:55] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, wait a sec... What do you mean "ours" - are you some mesa guy? :)
[00:41:08] <Tom_itx> he's THE mesa guy
[00:41:40] <LeelooMinai> O... ok, it just sounded weird when he wrote "ours":)
[00:41:43] <PCW> if you have a JTAG cable, you can devel on a 5I25
[00:42:09] <LeelooMinai> PCW: Yes, though it would have to sit in the pcie slot, right?
[00:42:46] <Tom_itx> With the ISE Design Suite 14.7 release back in October of 2013, ISE has moved into the sustaining phase of its product life cycle.
[00:42:49] <Tom_itx> mmm
[00:43:10] <Tom_itx> looks like you better learn Vivado
[00:43:30] <LeelooMinai> "sustaining phase"... that sound like keeping somone on life support
[00:43:32] <PCW> a 6I25 is possible to use without JTAG (since you can download a empty FPGA)
[00:44:24] <LeelooMinai> PCW, So i guess you may be even the person that wrote that VHDL code I just was looking at?
[00:44:41] <LeelooMinai> Ok, you are
[00:44:47] <Tom_itx> :)
[00:44:47] <LeelooMinai> Peter C Wallace
[00:44:59] <LeelooMinai> Ok, that was funny
[00:45:02] <PCW> Yep
[00:45:04] <zeeshan|3> pcw you're not related to kirk wallace are you
[00:45:12] <Jymmm> PCW: whats the eth one?
[00:45:29] <PCW> well maybe very distantly....
[00:45:41] <Jymmm> By 3000 miles
[00:45:45] <zeeshan|3> haha
[00:45:56] <LeelooMinai> PCW, ok, so you probably know this - with normal firmware, is there a lot of cells left on those mesa cards?
[00:46:00] <zeeshan|3> kirk wallace's code is what i based my modbus driver on
[00:46:19] <Jymmm> zeeshan|3: PCW Is your father!
[00:46:21] <PCW> nah Kirks in cafilornia
[00:46:43] <Jymmm> is he?
[00:46:49] <zeeshan|3> Jymmm: how will you kill me today?
[00:46:53] <zeeshan|3> :]
[00:47:00] <Jymmm> zeeshan|3: softly in your sleep
[00:47:05] <zeeshan|3> haha
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[00:47:34] <PCW> iLeelooMinai: Depends on the config but most are only about 1/2 full
[00:47:46] <Jymmm> zeeshan|3: Sorry, poison is reserved for girly murders.
[00:47:46] <LeelooMinai> A, so no worries
[00:48:16] <LeelooMinai> PCW: Did you ever think of adding a module for digital scales to the firmware? Seems like it could be common use, no?
[00:48:36] <Jymmm> glass scales?
[00:49:14] <LeelooMinai> Well, any scales. I am not sure, but aren't people using those in some production environments?
[00:49:39] <Jymmm> iirc they can't be used for speed
[00:49:42] <PCW> machine scales are quadrature
[00:49:47] <LeelooMinai> I mean I saw some DRO boards on many machines
[00:49:53] <PCW> or SSI or BISS ec
[00:50:00] <zeeshan|3> i just explained this earlier
[00:50:01] <zeeshan|3> theyre too slow
[00:50:41] <LeelooMinai> Well, depends for what purpose. IN my example I would like to map x-y table - no need for super-fast data there.
[00:50:57] <LeelooMinai> Or maybe use it for homing
[00:51:01] <LeelooMinai> Things like that
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[00:51:04] <PCW> Yeah not useful for control but maybe handy probe type use
[00:51:42] <PCW> also some need funny business to start
[00:52:06] <Jymmm> PCW: pimping? child labor? clown college?
[00:52:12] <zeeshan|3> ive been using a lot of image based distancing software
[00:52:16] <zeeshan|3> like argus and aramis from gom
[00:52:20] <zeeshan|3> shit's pretty precise
[00:52:46] <LeelooMinai> Image based like from what... a camera?
[00:52:47] <zeeshan|3> i wonder if can be integrated with cnc
[00:52:51] <zeeshan|3> yea
[00:52:54] <zeeshan|3> ccd cams
[00:53:02] <LeelooMinai> I wonder how can it be precise...
[00:53:35] <LeelooMinai> Or you mean +/- 1cm? :)
[00:54:52] <zeeshan|3> no
[00:55:58] <zeeshan|3> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photogrammetry
[00:56:00] <zeeshan|3> uses that
[00:56:30] <zeeshan|3> i've seen resolutions of 0.05mm
[00:56:34] <zeeshan|3> depending on the camera and lighting
[00:57:38] <LeelooMinai> Semms like something requireing some brutal processing power
[00:57:39] <XXCoder2> heys
[00:57:58] <zeeshan|3> which isn't a big deal days with the computers we have
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[01:00:13] <Tom_itx> either takes time or power
[01:02:41] <jdh> and time is money to a guy like me.
[01:02:53] <zeeshan|3> jdh shush
[01:03:00] <zeeshan|3> you spend 90% time on irc
[01:03:15] <jdh> only when I'm supposed to be working.
[01:03:25] <jdh> and it was a movie quote anyway.
[01:04:04] <Jymmm> zeeshan|3: But in the other window, jdh is doing internet video "dating"
[01:04:10] <zeeshan|3> haha
[01:04:17] <zeeshan|3> http://i.imgur.com/KrN99JM.jpg
[01:04:18] <Jymmm> zeeshan|3: ... @ $10/minute
[01:04:23] <Tom_itx> Jymmm knows these things...
[01:04:35] <zeeshan|3> photogrammetry ^|
[01:04:36] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Damn right, I get 10%
[01:05:04] <jdh> that's way too clean
[01:05:17] <Jymmm> jdh: Get back to work biotch! you have 200 dates to go before midnught!
[01:06:17] <Tom_itx> so Jymmm did you get another laser module?
[01:06:31] <RyanS> photogrammetry! I was looking at that ages ago for 3-D modelling
[01:06:40] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: "module" lol, you make it sound like it plugs into an arduino =)
[01:06:52] <RyanS> 0.05mm!
[01:07:05] <Tom_itx> it doesn't?
[01:07:18] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: It's 25 lbs
[01:07:20] <zeeshan|3> ryan you just need the right lense
[01:07:23] <zeeshan|3> and ccd camera
[01:07:27] <XXCoder2> WTF? http://www.iflscience.com/technology/automatic-sperm-extractor-introduced-chinese-hospital
[01:07:39] <RyanS> can you do it with a good SLR?
[01:07:42] <zeeshan|3> no
[01:07:52] <zeeshan|3> slr's use tiny ccds
[01:08:14] <zeeshan|3> thats the main problem with them
[01:08:23] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: got a replacement one today, it's even more off.
[01:08:29] <zeeshan|3> you need the right lense, and ccd is proportional to the area you're looking at
[01:08:41] <RyanS> Some of them are quite big if you get full frame
[01:08:54] <zeeshan|3> like this 0.05mm i speak of is only over a 3"x3"x3" volume
[01:09:13] <zeeshan|3> but for us that's acceptable cause we study necking behaviour in sheets
[01:09:23] <RyanS> hmm suppose it's not really machining accuracy
[01:09:41] <zeeshan|3> yes, but i was thinking it would make hell of a way to scan something
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[01:09:59] <zeeshan|3> and re-print using 3d printer
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[01:10:41] <RyanS> I was under the impression that photogrammetry was used mainly for surveying and forensic science
[01:11:02] <RyanS> Reconstructing scenes
[01:11:14] <zeeshan|3> lots of applications
[01:11:19] <zeeshan|3> we use it for strain measurement
[01:12:03] <zeeshan|3> http://alacron.com/clientuploads/directory/Cameras/VDS%20VOSSKUELER/ccd-1300_data.pdf
[01:12:05] <zeeshan|3> we use those
[01:12:38] <zeeshan|3> 0.0002"x0.0002" pixels
[01:13:09] <RyanS> I wanted to do it to buildings for 3-D models, actually I and try the trial version of some software. You just take multiple photos of building and can create a 3-D model of it
[01:15:38] <zeeshan|3> thatd be a nice thing to be able to do
[01:15:47] <RyanS> So the sensor on that camera is about 9 x 7 mm, so how big is the sensor on an SLR?
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[01:16:55] <zeeshan|3> arent most slr cmos sensors?
[01:17:09] <RyanS> Actually, I think so
[01:17:29] <zeeshan|3> i could have sworn ive seen ccd slr
[01:17:29] <zeeshan|3> though
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[01:17:33] <zeeshan|3> google isnt showing me anything
[01:18:12] <RyanS> Or is the sensor on that CCD 16mm?
[01:18:26] <RyanS> 2/3"
[01:18:27] <zeeshan|3> says 8.25mm x 6.60 mm
[01:19:16] <zeeshan|3> http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d3000/spec.htm
[01:19:19] <RyanS> 2/3" I guess is a nominal dimensions
[01:19:26] <zeeshan|3> d3000 is 23.6x15.8 mm!
[01:20:24] <zeeshan|3> i think im calculating only 0.006" pixels though
[01:21:00] <RyanS> try the top of the range camera http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/d4/spec.htm
[01:21:07] <RyanS> 36 x 23
[01:22:00] <zeeshan|3> 0.007" pixel size
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[01:22:56] <RyanS> So what does that mean, not as high resolution is that CCD?
[01:23:49] <zeeshan|3> your pixel size has to be smaller than what youre trying to measuring
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[01:24:11] <zeeshan|3> like if youre trying to measure 0.001" dots
[01:24:19] <zeeshan|3> you cant do that with a 0.007" square pixel
[01:25:07] <SpeedEvil> That's not strictly true.
[01:25:21] <SpeedEvil> Appropriate lenses can magnify
[01:26:15] <zeeshan|3> i'd think at the cost of viewing area?
[01:26:38] <zeeshan|3> like if you're trying to measure a 0.001" dot with a 0.007" square pixel
[01:26:57] <zeeshan|3> actually nm
[01:27:00] <zeeshan|3> if you magnify it right
[01:27:06] <zeeshan|3> it'd fit within the 0.007" pixel
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[01:28:19] <zeeshan|3> hopefully the lense doesn't cause distortion!
[01:29:15] <RyanS> Shouldn't you be thinking of the resolution of the actual image output 'effective pixels'?
[01:29:44] * zeeshan|3 isnt an expert
[01:29:48] <zeeshan|3> i just know a little bit :P
[01:30:02] <RyanS> It's more than me
[01:30:04] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, I found pretty cheap dev board for same (I think) spartan6 as on the mesa board: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/LCD1602-xilinx-fpga-development-board-spartan6-xilinx-spartan-6-xilinx-board-xilinx-kit-xc6slx9-tqg144/1723531478.html
[01:30:11] <LeelooMinai> Chinese to the rescue again
[01:30:36] <zeeshan|3> LeelooMinai: you really hate supporting the north americans?
[01:31:20] <LeelooMinai> zeeshan|3: I am glad to support them - if I was rich:)
[01:31:40] <zeeshan|3> can't wait till the gas priceses hit 3$/L
[01:31:53] <zeeshan|3> globalization will slow down
[01:31:57] <zeeshan|3> :]
[01:32:15] <RyanS> What a load of wank http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/dslr/df/
[01:33:18] <RyanS> "The large mechanical dials on the top deck are carved from solid metal in order to allow more direct and purposeful exposure control." hahaha carved
[01:33:43] <zeeshan|3> haha
[01:33:59] <zeeshan|3> i love marketing:D
[01:34:03] <RyanS> You mean machined in a Chinese factory for two cents each
[01:34:29] <zeeshan|3> brb
[01:34:57] <RyanS> They are trying to appeal to the hipster retro market
[01:35:00] <LeelooMinai> I guess that was supposed to be apealing to non-tech oriented photographers
[01:35:53] <RyanS> Both my parents are obsessed with photography and, do you have any idea what that's like to live with :)
[01:36:18] <LeelooMinai> Could be worse - having parents-audiphiles
[01:36:27] <LeelooMinai> audio*
[01:37:16] <jdh> could be worse - having parents pedophiles
[01:38:43] <RyanS> "I have to take a photo of that, wait the camera batteries and, f-stop, iso, oh no, the macro lens I need to put on a 50 mm, and the bird just flew away"
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[01:46:07] <XXCoder2> RyanS: there is worse ones. http://www.iflscience.com/technology/automatic-sperm-extractor-introduced-chinese-hospital
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[01:47:03] <RyanS> temperature!
[01:47:29] <RyanS> How do they sterilise it
[01:47:51] <XXCoder2> probably removable rubber covers but dunno either
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[01:48:48] <RyanS> It's going to slow onthe video
[01:49:00] <XXCoder2> so you experenced it eh
[01:49:07] <RyanS> I wonder if it plays porn on the screen
[01:49:32] <RyanS> It does!
[01:52:29] <RyanS> It looks painful actually
[01:52:40] <XXCoder2> no clue
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[01:57:54] <SpeedEvil> One method involves basically a taser
[01:59:15] -!- DaViruz has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[01:59:52] <SpeedEvil> http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Electro-ejaculation
[02:00:02] <XXCoder2> noose, lube tissues, and fake sucide note. :P
[02:00:27] <RyanS> Michael Hutchence
[02:01:09] * SpeedEvil decides not to link the youtube video.
[02:01:41] <RyanS> Would you trust these cutters? http://www.ctctools.biz/servlet/the-520/TiAlN-Coated-Tungsten-Micrograin/Detail
[02:04:08] <XXCoder2> I was talking about David Carradine
[02:04:16] <XXCoder2> he forgot fake sucide note though :P
[02:04:45] <zeeshan|3> SpeedEvil: i must try this method
[02:04:49] <XXCoder2> interesting http://www.ranker.com/list/famous-people-who-died-of-erotic-asphyxiation/reference
[02:05:31] <zeeshan|3> RyanS: those look nice
[02:06:45] <RyanS> Although I guess they don't require the tolerance of something like reamers
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[02:09:11] <zeeshan|3> depends, if youre using them in a cnc application
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[02:09:45] <zeeshan|3> i was using the school cnc mill to make some recessed pockets where a certain component registered against
[02:10:02] <zeeshan|3> i wrote the program right, yet the pockets were coming out too small
[02:10:26] <zeeshan|3> it ended up being that the end mill i was using was a 'regrind' so it wasn't 0.500" it was 0.498"
[02:10:44] <zeeshan|3> redid the tool offset, and it worked out :P
[02:11:01] <RyanS> I think a slot drill works better. However, I
[02:11:06] <RyanS> Apparently
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[02:17:59] <RyanS> are carbide endMills easy to break or not these days?
[02:19:40] <Tom_itx> carbide is still brittle
[02:23:55] <XXCoder2> interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKK-D5UiMMI
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[02:56:33] <os1r1s> Tom_itx: You still around?
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[03:00:45] <XXCoder2> wow
[03:00:57] <XXCoder2> guys using his unfinished lathe to make lathe parts
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[03:02:01] <ssi> I miss all the fun stuff
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[04:35:58] <ssi> k now I'm getting somewheres
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[04:43:06] <RyanS> Why on earth are BSP taps and dies so expensive
[04:43:16] <ssi> because britain?
[04:44:05] <RyanS> It standard in Australia and they are far more expensive than metric
[04:45:19] <ssi> ok I'm about to test fire the torch again
[04:45:27] <ssi> lets hope it doesn't nuke any sensitive electronics this time
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[04:45:42] <toastyde1th> aus is not a manufacturing center, and it's still a specialty item insofar as the tool mfgs are concerned
[04:46:20] <toastyde1th> because the manufacturing powerhouses - china, taiwan, usa, germany - do not use them
[04:47:06] <toastyde1th> i guess i could have said EU, but afaik it's mostly germany
[04:47:45] <toastyde1th> the machines that turn them shits out are not lean manufacturing rigs, they're ultrahigh volume machines
[04:48:22] <ssi> alright, nary a wiggle on the probe input lines... looking good so far
[04:48:27] <RyanS> However, they manufacture plumbing fittings? I guess they use thread mills or even diecast the entire thing?
[04:48:54] <toastyde1th> most manufactured items are not made using taps; in plumbing, a lot of shit is just straight die cast
[04:49:09] <toastyde1th> if a fitting IS machined, and a good portion are, they're made using a special tool called a collapsing tap
[04:49:30] <toastyde1th> collapsing taps can be used in screw machines and rotary transfer machines
[04:49:58] <toastyde1th> (those two classes of machines make up the bulk of post-casting and post-forging machinework)
[04:50:08] <toastyde1th> (and they're NOT cnc)
[04:51:02] <RyanS> A bit like coventry chasers?
[04:51:32] <toastyde1th> exactly
[04:51:38] <toastyde1th> they're the tap equivalent of a die head.
[04:52:11] <ssi> successful test cut! :D
[04:55:14] <toastyde1th> congrats!
[04:56:36] <RyanS> ooo i like guhring, six minutes to reply to an email
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[04:57:47] <ssi> this time with 100% less high voltage electronics death
[04:57:48] <ssi> weeeee
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[06:01:18] <RyanS> Anyone know much about the coatings on spiral taps is steam oxide sufficient for all types of metal? (Although not ideal for aluminium)
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[06:47:31] <Deejay> moin
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[08:25:51] <SpeedEvil> RyanS: what?
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[08:38:24] <Tom_itx> os1r1s?
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[08:39:49] <Tom_itx> RyanS, use tap honey
[08:40:24] <Tom_itx> and i doubt they'd be much good in tungsten etc
[08:42:36] <Tom_itx> http://www.cutting-tool-supply.com/TechTips/Tapping/TapCoatings/TapCoatings.htm
[08:42:40] <Tom_itx> http://www.kennametal.com/content/dam/kennametal/kennametal/common/Resources/Technical%20Tips/Coatings%20and%20Grades/TechTip_035_TapCoatings.pdf
[08:44:18] <Tom_itx> the info is readily available if you look
[08:51:39] <Jymmm> tap honey, lol
[08:53:12] <Jymmm> Mt tapping fluid is cinnamon scented
[08:53:16] <Jymmm> My*
[08:55:48] <syyl_ws> Oo
[08:55:54] <syyl_ws> did you taste it?
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[08:59:10] <Jymmm> http://www.amazon.com/LPS-Tapmatic-Aquacut-Cutting-Fluid/dp/B00065VG48
[09:00:37] <syyl_ws> its blue
[09:00:52] <Jymmm> and CINNAMON SCENTED
[09:01:16] <syyl_ws> not flammable, no chloride, no sulfur, waterbased, no oil, non hazardious
[09:01:23] <syyl_ws> does that stuff even work? ;)
[09:01:35] <Jymmm> works great
[09:01:54] <syyl_ws> is it kinda soapy?
[09:01:57] <Jymmm> I was breaking taps before using it
[09:02:06] <Jymmm> no
[09:02:06] <syyl_ws> or does it feel like a oil?
[09:02:16] <Tom_itx> it's thick like STP
[09:02:32] <Jymmm> it's water based
[09:02:38] <syyl_ws> STP?
[09:03:00] <Tom_itx> like 90 wt or more
[09:03:04] <Jymmm> STP Oil additive
[09:03:10] <syyl_ws> ah ok
[09:03:13] <syyl_ws> interesting stuff Oo
[09:03:25] <syyl_ws> is rust a problem with that stuff?
[09:03:29] <syyl_ws> as its water based
[09:04:28] <Jymmm> Corrosion inhibitors prevent flash rusting
[09:04:36] <Jymmm> Safe on all metals, except magnesium
[09:04:45] <syyl_ws> hmm
[09:04:49] <syyl_ws> interesting
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[09:05:36] <syyl_ws> i am sick of the cutting oil fumes in the shop :D
[09:06:18] <Tom_itx> http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/45730595?src=pla&008=-99&pcrid=15557577904&007=Search&006=15557577904&005=21882504424&004=4409695744&002=2167139&mkwid=sJXegN7a0|dc&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test_sJXegN7a0_PLA__15557577904_c_S&026=-99&025=c&item=45730595
[09:06:20] <Tom_itx> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=505-2011&&cm_mmc=Didit-_-SEM-_-GglProd-_-GglProd&003=18299132&010=505-2011&gclid=CjkKEQjwia-dBRC07eeatYGe-78BEiQArZhbgDN5R4mGfnSeYQG7HhpuBXvy8BbeXHrQqBxslJLBi1Lw_wcB
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[09:06:27] <Tom_itx> etc
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[09:07:24] <syyl_ws> now it only needs to be availible in germany ;)
[09:07:45] <Jymmm> syyl_ws: Heh, get a carbon filter =)
[09:08:11] <syyl_ws> machining in a hazmat suit ;)
[09:08:46] <Jymmm> I just picked up a carbon filter for $20.rated at 1800 CFM
[09:09:04] <syyl_ws> ah, for the shop air?
[09:09:35] <Jymmm> Well, for the laser actually. I set off the smoke alarm three times already
[09:10:11] <Jymmm> with only 20s runtime too =)
[09:10:53] <Jymmm> My exhaust is 900CFM, so I should be good. At least once Ifigure out how to go from 4" duct to 10"
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[09:16:40] <Jymmm> 44" x 14" https://store-f2983.mybigcommerce.com/product_images/uploaded_images/ozone-filter-10x24-2.png
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[11:06:19] <SpeedEvil> last time my exhaust was at 900CFM I'd eaten way too many beans.
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[11:17:19] <Loetmichel> hrmpf. hat to repair the last flexcoupler on my CNC604 yesterday
[11:17:23] <Loetmichel> 6040
[11:17:31] <Loetmichel> broken off
[11:17:53] <Loetmichel> like the other one: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14193
[11:17:59] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14196
[11:18:28] <Loetmichel> it seems 2 jears us about the life expectancy of these things in an 8hr a day enviroment
[11:19:18] * SpeedEvil wonders how you slit like that.
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[11:19:30] <SpeedEvil> Is it just a bandsaw or something?
[11:19:54] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: looks like cuircular saw
[11:20:09] <Loetmichel> bandsaw would have straight inner edgres
[11:20:58] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[11:23:15] <Loetmichel> i would think they clamp it upright on a CNC mil and get a slitting saw sideways in and out, step a bit deeper, rotatoe angle of aTTAC )=° AND GO IN7OUT AGAIN
[11:23:23] <Loetmichel> AND THAT #TIL THE COUPLER IS DONE
[11:23:30] <Loetmichel> sorry, capslock
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[11:28:22] <SpeedEvil> hmm
[11:28:42] <SpeedEvil> I guess radiusing the edges of the cuts is important, so profiled blade
[11:29:34] <_methods> why not use a flex coupler with the rubber joint
[11:29:47] <_methods> lovejoy coupler
[11:29:57] <_methods> not sure what they call them in germany
[11:30:18] <_methods> spidex coupler?
[11:30:54] <_methods> http://www.rl-hydraulics.com/fileadmin/user_upload/pdf/4.%20Kupplungen_Couplings/Spidex.pdf
[11:32:12] <_methods> if it's going to be exposed to coolants or oils make sure you get the plastic/rubber joint out of something resistant or it will fail eventually also
[11:34:26] <Loetmichel> met: i will make a bunch of these fpr it soon, just havend found the time yyetr: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12846
[11:34:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12821&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[11:34:46] <Loetmichel> the lower ones
[11:34:59] <Loetmichel> and LDpe was not a good idea, rubber is much better;-)
[11:35:28] <_methods> ah ok you're just going to make your own
[11:36:45] <Valen> http://www.thompsoncouplings.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1&Itemid=101 is what you need ;-P
[11:37:29] <_methods> those are expensive lol
[11:38:30] <Valen> I've never seen a price on them
[11:38:40] <_methods> whew
[11:38:42] <Valen> they are different to a universal joint
[11:38:53] <_methods> high dollar
[11:38:58] <Valen> those change position as you change the rotation angle
[11:39:14] <Valen> these will keep the output shaft angle the same regardless of offset
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[11:49:47] <_methods> fuck the FAA just destroyed fpv flight
[11:50:01] <_methods> no more fpv quadcopter flying
[11:50:17] <_methods> http://www.faa.gov/about/initiatives/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf
[11:56:03] <Valen> could potentially be good
[11:56:31] <Valen> IE they may get their ass into gear with UAV rules
[11:56:48] <jdh> lack of rules is generally better
[11:56:54] <Valen> true
[11:57:20] <Valen> although if they did create UAV rules then doing more exciting things could become easier
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[11:57:33] <Valen> stuff where the vehicle is not in direct control of a person
[12:00:09] <jdh> isnt' that forbidden under a whold different set of rules?
[12:00:16] <Valen> probably
[12:01:15] <jdh> and export controlled,etc.
[12:01:37] <Valen> usa would probably be an importer anyway ;->
[12:02:04] <_methods> no i think we export most of those
[12:02:07] <_methods> then kill
[12:03:18] <jdh> but, only if they are teh wrong color/religion.
[12:03:51] <_methods> no i think we even kill our own guys with them sometimes
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[12:05:09] <jdh> 'our own' being white xtians?
[12:05:24] <_methods> no being friendly fire lol
[12:05:27] <_methods> like oops
[12:05:31] <_methods> didn't see ya there
[12:06:07] <_methods> or oh shit i fired that hellfire when i spilled my coffee
[12:08:41] <jdh> that's just incidental though.
[12:11:16] <_methods> yeah
[12:11:27] <_methods> i'm sure there are a few intentionals in there
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[14:40:42] <ssi> marn
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[14:55:19] <ssi> peet
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[15:22:13] <PetefromTn_> hey man...
[15:22:54] <jdh> whuttup pete
[15:23:10] <jdh> making anything cool?
[15:23:37] <archivist> with blunt tools anything hot?
[15:24:27] <PetefromTn_> working on my RWS54 air rifle build a bit... and some ideas for the local tuner car shop.
[15:25:46] <PetefromTn_> Right now I am waiting on a breech seal for the rifle from Vortek and once it arrives I will be modifying it to accept a brass transfer port probe I am turning in the lathe
[15:26:00] <PetefromTn_> I am also working on a custom weighted barrel shroud setup for it.
[15:26:05] -!- sudobangbang has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[15:26:07] <PetefromTn_> Howsabout you?
[15:26:28] <ssi> PetefromTn_: I had a successful testcut last night
[15:26:41] <ssi> put in a relay system to decouple the ohmic cap
[15:26:43] -!- jduhls has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[15:26:46] <ssi> seems to work great
[15:27:20] <PetefromTn_> test cut on what?
[15:27:29] <ssi> plasma table
[15:27:33] <PetefromTn_> aah...
[15:27:40] <PetefromTn_> Been thinking about your lathe man.
[15:27:42] <ssi> the bitch I've been wrestling with for a week :)
[15:27:48] <ssi> yeah I bet you have
[15:27:50] <PetefromTn_> I really could use that machine here.
[15:27:58] <PetefromTn_> Just need to figure out how to find the funds.
[15:28:17] <PetefromTn_> without losing kidney.
[15:28:18] <ssi> heh
[15:28:27] <ssi> I'm gonna cry salty tears if I get rid of it
[15:28:39] <PetefromTn_> oh here we go...
[15:28:41] <ssi> heheh
[15:28:44] <jdh> waaaaahhhhhhh
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[15:29:49] <PetefromTn_> whaddya think of that guy Suarez? Someone needs to get that nutjob a chew toy...LOL
[15:30:01] <ssi> dunno what you're talking about
[15:30:23] <PetefromTn_> http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/28023882
[15:30:36] <ssi> oh I don't even sports bro
[15:30:37] <PetefromTn_> crazier than a shithouse rat..
[15:31:05] <PetefromTn_> me neither I am more of a racing kinda guy but some friends on Facebook are all up in arms about it LOL..
[15:31:42] <PetefromTn_> apparently he likes to chew on people on the other team..... Maybe its just a phase?
[15:32:10] <Loetmichel> PetefromTn_: ahem: suarez is surely a nutjob, buit the itaian guys provoked it.
[15:32:28] <PetefromTn_> Reminds me of Mikey Tyson.... Poor Evander!!
[15:32:40] <PetefromTn_> How the hell do you PROVOKE someone biting you?
[15:33:07] <Loetmichel> i would have used miy elbow intead of my theet,thoug. much easier to explain "o, sorry, hsi nose must hafe benn there, didnt se it as i reached wit my arm back
[15:33:09] <Loetmichel> "
[15:33:37] <PetefromTn_> That would certainly have been better than an armful of teeth....
[15:33:44] <Loetmichel> PetefromTn_: theay constantly hit and fouled the guys and suares especially
[15:33:50] <PetefromTn_> If it were me I woulda killed the crazy bastard...
[15:34:50] <PetefromTn_> sounds like kindergarten over there LOL..
[15:35:06] <Loetmichel> if you look at the video of the incident you see the italien guy jumping backwards, shoving his houlder into suarez' chest
[15:35:17] <Loetmichel> so he just had to "nick" and close his jaw
[15:35:26] <PetefromTn_> I don't like what you are doing and I can't stop you so I guess I will just BITE YOU hehehe
[15:35:26] <Loetmichel> ... which he did ;-9
[15:36:12] <PetefromTn_> Man I dunno I watched the video and it looked like he felt the teeth sink in and THEN threw himself backwards....
[15:36:48] <Loetmichel> i dont want to defend suarez, he did wrong,, but i can somewhat understand his reaction
[15:36:54] <PetefromTn_> You do realize this is like the THIRD time he has bitten someone.... He is like an overbred pit bull er somethin' LOL
[15:37:12] <Loetmichel> like i said: he isure is a nutjob
[15:37:24] <Loetmichel> but he is also a provoked nutjob.
[15:37:30] <Loetmichel> not the wises thing to do ;-)
[15:37:35] <Loetmichel> +t
[15:37:57] <PetefromTn_> well apparently he will only be biting people OFF the field for about four months now...
[15:38:10] <PetefromTn_> nobody is safe...
[15:38:23] <PetefromTn_> LOL I crack myself up!!
[15:46:07] <PetefromTn_> ssi So what did you make on the plasma?
[15:47:56] <Loetmichel> four mkonths?
[15:48:00] <Loetmichel> i heard 9 games?
[15:48:26] <ssi> PetefromTn_: nothing specific
[15:48:38] <ssi> PetefromTn_: I made a few tube amp chassis a few months ago
[15:54:04] <PetefromTn_> nice..
[15:54:17] <PetefromTn_> I think that is a good project for one.
[15:54:24] <ssi> yeah
[15:54:48] <ssi> PetefromTn_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3rhhnSkbfw
[15:54:57] <ssi> this is before the new work I did
[15:56:13] <PetefromTn_> yup you already showed me that man nice..
[15:56:39] <ssi> i've cut some decorative work for a few people
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[15:56:58] <ssi> did some awesome gate medallions for my friends father in law out of 3/16", about 3' diameter
[15:57:10] <jdh> flowery cutout metal table tops?
[15:57:19] <ssi> haven't done one of those :P
[15:57:41] <jdh> I associate those with really bad facial hair
[15:57:54] <ssi> I see...
[15:57:56] <ssi> cool... story?
[15:57:56] <ssi> :D
[15:58:45] <jdh> an ad in some mags for some plasma thing
[15:59:38] <ssi> I need to get a water heater so I can build my water sump
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[16:01:33] <jdh> boat fuel tank?
[16:01:51] <ssi> for building an adjustable water level system for teh plasma table
[16:03:39] <ssi> I wonder how much it would cost to have the table sandblasted and powder coated
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[16:05:03] <jdh> how long would that last?
[16:05:20] <ssi> longer than paint!
[16:05:22] <ssi> the paint is a mess already
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[16:10:20] <ssi> later I may start messing with the thcad
[16:10:26] <ssi> but now, lunchtime, bbl! :D
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[16:59:58] <JT-Shop> anyone know how to transfer from a GoPro camera via USB to a Macbook pro?
[17:00:34] <Jymmm> plug it in?
[17:00:50] <Jymmm> is the camera in USB FILE MODE?
[17:00:53] <archivist> does it not show up as a memory device
[17:01:13] <JT-Shop> I don't know a friend just asked me and I don't have a mac
[17:01:26] <archivist> may need some nasty makers driver installed otherwise
[17:01:28] <JT-Shop> should something pop up when you plug it in?
[17:01:49] <JT-Shop> I can see mine in the file manager as a usb stick
[17:01:53] <archivist> I dont have a mach either
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[17:02:20] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: If the camera is in USB FILE MODE (as opposed to DEVICE MODE), it will automatically mount it as another storage device.
[17:02:39] <JT-Shop> ok
[17:02:43] <Jymmm> (just like another usb hdd)
[17:03:20] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: It will show up in the FINDER (OSX's version of file manager)
[17:03:32] -!- stephan48 has quit [Ping timeout: 245 seconds]
[17:04:28] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: If it doens't, have your friend open up DISK UTILITY (Under APPLICATIONS/ UTILITIES) and see if it detects it.
[17:06:07] <JT-Shop> ok
[17:08:42] <JT-Shop> lol she is mid 70's and rides a Spyder all over the US...
[17:11:24] * JT-Shop heads inside for a bowl of gruel
[17:16:42] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I met a 74yo at a overnighter, she rides even in the rain. They don't let her ride alone of course, and she can't pick up the bike, but she's one tough chick =)
[17:17:18] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: 2 wheel, not trik
[17:17:30] <archivist> 74 is well past "chick"
[17:17:37] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: full dress too
[17:18:02] <Jymmm> archivist: Well, the body wasn't, but her mind was =)
[17:18:22] <Loetmichel> archivist:that depends
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[17:18:44] <LeelooMinai> 74 is the new 40
[17:18:48] <Loetmichel> i had a neighbour that was 84 at taking the lessons for drivers license.
[17:18:57] <Loetmichel> i would have definetly done her
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[17:19:04] <Loetmichel> looked no day older than 40 ;-)
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[17:19:50] <Loetmichel> she could sprint faster than me. and i was 16 at that time, and sporty of sorts ;-)
[17:20:19] <archivist> iirc my next door neighbour is 96 and still lives on her own
[17:20:36] <jdh> go for it.
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[17:27:36] <k6mle_> I get "no module named hal" when trying to run stepconf in a Debian installation. Anyone know how to address this?
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[17:27:53] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[17:27:57] <IchGuckLive> ssi: ?
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[17:28:29] <IchGuckLive> 74 is the new 40 well wee will see 11 years to go
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[17:30:28] <k6mle_> I get "no module named hal" when trying to run stepconf in a Debian installation. Anyone know how to address this?
[17:31:20] <Connor> k6mle_: Why you trying to run it on Debian ?
[17:32:10] <k6mle_> Hi Connor ... the hardware I have was too sluggish running the 10.04 Ubuntu install ...
[17:32:24] <jdh> and debian will be less sluggish?
[17:32:43] <archivist> ubuntu is based on debian anyway
[17:33:08] <k6mle_> It appears to run much better ... the Ubuntu install was really slow just trying to move windows around ... !
[17:33:23] <archivist> do you have enough memory
[17:33:48] <Loetmichel> k6mle_: may be because it had a realtime kernel. and debian dont as default ;-)
[17:33:53] <k6mle_> I think this box has 500MB, which isn't much by today's standards
[17:34:10] <archivist> and before you waste anymore time with that hardware run the latency test
[17:34:32] <Loetmichel> yeah, iwould rather taht 2gb ram and at least a c2d with 2ghz is lowest end for linuxCNC standard install
[17:34:45] <k6mle_> I've run the latency test and get 50000 back for my 'number'
[17:34:51] <Connor> OUCH
[17:35:03] <Loetmichel> unuseable
[17:35:04] <archivist> too high for my liking
[17:35:27] <Connor> Sounds like either no RT-Kernel.. or machine just not suitable.
[17:35:37] <Connor> Did you run the test when you had Ubuntu 10.04 on it ?
[17:35:37] <k6mle_> interesting points ... this is running the RT-kernel
[17:35:43] <LeelooMinai> I think the good value is considered 15μs or less, no?
[17:35:51] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13089&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <- thats barely useable
[17:35:52] <Connor> is this by chance a laptop ?
[17:36:57] <k6mle_> This is an older desktop ... used to be running XP at one time ...
[17:37:00] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: Really? That looks kind of normal, from what I have seen from other people
[17:37:26] <Loetmichel> it IS useable
[17:37:45] <Connor> k6mle_: What sort of processor ?
[17:37:55] <k6mle_> I did run the latency test under 10.04 and it was better, but not by an order of magnitude ...
[17:37:56] <archivist> usable but slowly
[17:38:07] <Loetmichel> but because its a p4 that is running at 100% cpu load it has no real "headroom" left
[17:38:20] <IchGuckLive> k6mle_: 50000 is good for a stepper at less then 1500mm/min = 60inch/min
[17:38:25] <Connor> oh, and when you tried it with 10.04, was that a full install, or running off the live-cd ?
[17:39:12] <LeelooMinai> I decided to use modern (but cheap) MB + CPU for linuxcnc - those old P4 - that just felt bad - they were pretty power inefficient
[17:39:22] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12331&g2_imageViewsIndex=1 <. that is my home CNC PC
[17:39:23] <IchGuckLive> the hardy 8.04 with 2.3.5 linuxcnc will run perfect on 384MB ram
[17:39:47] <k6mle_> Just ran latency test again ... without 'pushing the box any', it's giving me 15869
[17:40:01] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: What is that proxon thing - some kind of spindle?
[17:40:14] <IchGuckLive> k6mle_: are you ham
[17:40:17] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: i had no choice for that machine. the p4 industroal board barely fits inside the bottom frame...
[17:40:18] <k6mle_> the 10.04 run was a complete install, Connor
[17:40:23] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: yes
[17:40:27] <k6mle_> I am a ham
[17:40:44] <IchGuckLive> Dl5IAK
[17:40:48] <MrHindsight> k6mle_: what cpu and chipset?
[17:41:05] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: full machine then: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12304
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[17:41:37] <Loetmichel> now: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12569
[17:41:45] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: I have some Proxxon tools (vise, rotary too, mini drill press) for EE/PCB work - I really like then, but I thought they make only precision small tools, not big spindles like that
[17:41:46] <k6mle_> AMD Athlon 3200 is what I get on boot
[17:42:04] <MrHindsight> oh we should be able to get that to work
[17:42:29] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: Ok, that looks bigger:)
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[17:42:34] <MrHindsight> in BIOS turn off all power management, speed stepping, acpi etc etc
[17:42:36] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: its not
[17:42:45] <MrHindsight> k6mle_: ^^^
[17:42:55] <Loetmichel> the new spindle is a 800W chinses HF spindle
[17:42:57] <LeelooMinai> It's the height of the monitor there... it's big for me
[17:43:00] <Loetmichel> not much bigger, just faster
[17:43:14] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: a, I saw many of those on aliexpress
[17:43:22] <Loetmichel> the BFW40 from proxxon has 400 Watts, BETTER bearings but only 6000 rom
[17:43:29] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: They require VHD though, and it's additional cost
[17:43:32] <Loetmichel> rpm
[17:43:33] <jdh> Loetmichel: I ordered teh one with the 1.2kw spindle
[17:43:34] <LeelooMinai> VFD*
[17:43:44] <k6mle_> Going into the BIOS right now to check what can be turned off ...
[17:43:49] <MrHindsight> k6mle_: any power management, speed stepping etc hurts latency since the power management will keep changing the cpu speed
[17:44:01] <Loetmichel> k6mle_: could you by any chance get some more ram for it?
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[17:44:29] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: its only my home cnc mill
[17:44:48] <Loetmichel> at the company i have a much bigger CNC6040 with the same spindle
[17:44:54] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: How much is that BFW in comparision to the CHinese spindles?
[17:44:56] <k6mle_> I might be able to throw some more RAM into it .... will have to look around and see what I can scrape up ....
[17:45:02] <Loetmichel> ots relatively cheap
[17:45:24] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: But you replaced it - you were not happy with it?
[17:45:34] <Loetmichel> http://www.voelkner.de/products/223610/Fraesmotor-Bfw-40-E-mit-Steuergeraet.html?ref=43&products_model=C58708&gclid=CNHS8o6MmL8CFRHHtAodhUQA7Q
[17:45:41] <Loetmichel> its to slow
[17:45:47] <Loetmichel> only 6000rpm
[17:46:06] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... slow for, say, alu?
[17:46:06] <Loetmichel> i do a lot of stuff with 0,8 and 0,4mm mill bits
[17:46:19] <Loetmichel> that need as much rpm as you can get
[17:46:31] <LeelooMinai> A, right, like PCB routing for example?
[17:46:38] <Loetmichel> even the 24krpm hf spindle is to slow to use them properly ;)
[17:47:00] <Loetmichel> no, but engraving and stuff
[17:47:04] <IchGuckLive> 80k is what all of us like
[17:47:08] <LeelooMinai> Yes, I guess that's similar
[17:47:19] <LeelooMinai> 1 jigga rpm:)
[17:47:59] <LeelooMinai> But for milling alu, what would be the recommendation?
[17:48:09] <Tom_itx> Loetmichel what spindle speed would you be looking for?
[17:48:16] <LeelooMinai> Those Chinese spindles, some palm router maybe?
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[17:48:44] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: i have a 24krpm chinese hf spindle.
[17:48:49] <Loetmichel> so i am happy for mow
[17:49:05] <Tom_itx> how are the bearings in it?
[17:49:14] <Loetmichel> if i could get 80krpm i couild use the engravers better, but 24k is ok
[17:49:25] <LeelooMinai> http://www.aliexpress.com/item/CNC-Water-Cooling-Type-Spindle-with-Supreme-Quality-and-60000-rpm-AC-75V-and-4-P4/680687664.html?s=p
[17:49:30] <LeelooMinai> They have 60k ones there too
[17:49:37] <LeelooMinai> Expensive though
[17:49:41] <Loetmichel> 6krpm is painfully slow when engraving, though -> http://www.cyrom.org/hajo/namelampe.avi
[17:50:03] <Tom_itx> yep, that's more for steel and harder materials
[17:51:13] <IchGuckLive> michel did you try running 24k for a longer time i got 15k at 5hr working fine with cooled water
[17:51:41] <IchGuckLive> ssi: ? online
[17:52:24] <Tom_itx> do you use water or some type of antifreze?
[17:52:29] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: the 800W chinese spindle doesnt run at any other speed thatn 24krpm
[17:52:36] <Loetmichel> ant that fopr hours at a time
[17:52:59] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, all those VFD they sell on ali are for 220V
[17:53:22] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: tey are single phase
[17:53:38] <jdh> what do you use for the spindle cooling?
[17:53:43] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but in my room I just have 110V normal mains
[17:53:43] <Loetmichel> shoukld work if you put them on a 2 phase plug in america
[17:54:02] <Loetmichel> jdh: car coolant
[17:54:09] <Loetmichel> for aluminium motors
[17:54:27] <Tom_itx> jdh, i'd think an auto heater radiator would be plenty to keep it cool
[17:54:28] <jdh> how much?
[17:54:35] <IchGuckLive> i 2 but the box with the fluid is also watercooled
[17:54:40] <Tom_itx> the pink stuff?
[17:54:45] <Loetmichel> half cooolant half water
[17:54:47] <Loetmichel> yes
[17:54:56] <jdh> I assume the pump that will come with mine sucks.
[17:55:21] <jdh> how cool does it need to stay?
[17:55:22] <LeelooMinai> For a small machine like mine and milling alu, what kind of spindle power would be good?
[17:55:24] <IchGuckLive> the hyanjang do not ship with pump
[17:55:33] <jdh> mine is coming with a pump
[17:55:58] <Loetmichel> i used a little "micro mouse"submersible pump meant for a living room fountain
[17:55:59] <LeelooMinai> they seem to range there from 180 watt to 2.2kW
[17:56:13] <jdh> wondering how big of a resovoir I need
[17:56:44] <IchGuckLive> 5l is good
[17:57:02] <IchGuckLive> 40l is real fine
[17:57:03] <jdh> oh. I was thinking bigger
[17:57:21] <Tom_itx> wonder if a fishtank pump would work
[17:57:21] <jdh> more like 20l anyway
[17:57:24] <Tom_itx> submersible
[17:57:31] <IchGuckLive> Tom_itx: no
[17:57:32] <Loetmichel> jdh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Ov69t0uwo
[17:57:40] <Tom_itx> why not?
[17:57:47] <IchGuckLive> no presure
[17:57:51] <Tom_itx> ahh
[17:57:54] <Tom_itx> that's true
[17:58:06] <jdh> actually they say 1.5kw spindle. Wonder if that is the motor or just teh vfd
[17:58:11] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: pressure: what for?
[17:58:22] <Tom_itx> to circulate it
[17:58:27] <IchGuckLive> you need to be able to reatch 4m of pumping hight to get good floting
[17:58:31] <Tom_itx> those pumps won't run uphill much at all
[17:58:36] <Loetmichel> i know
[17:58:59] <Loetmichel> mine needs a bit "help" (have to lift the bucket) when the system hat drawn air
[17:59:09] <Tom_itx> RV freshwater pump would work
[17:59:13] <Loetmichel> but once it is filled it works like a charm
[17:59:33] <Loetmichel> you need no pressure there
[17:59:34] <IchGuckLive> Tom_itx: look for camping pumps
[17:59:58] <Tom_itx> i'm not looking.. just thinking
[18:00:03] <Loetmichel> did oyu see tha last vid?
[18:00:06] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: that i neen to get it floting presure
[18:00:13] <Tom_itx> i didn't click
[18:00:14] <Loetmichel> thats my system, just added car coolant later
[18:01:36] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: [19:57] <Loetmichel> jdh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9Ov69t0uwo
[18:01:42] <Loetmichel> runs perfectly
[18:01:53] <IchGuckLive> i know
[18:02:03] <Loetmichel> and that much water flow there is perfectly enough for a 800W spindle
[18:02:28] <jdh> modbus to the VFD?
[18:02:44] <Loetmichel> "hand turning" the knob ;-)
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[18:03:02] <Loetmichel> still didnt got around to "modbus" it
[18:03:26] <IchGuckLive> Tom_itx: http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/539090/Barwig-0444-Tauchpumpe-Typ-04?ref=searchDetail
[18:04:05] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: ED 50%
[18:04:17] <IchGuckLive> 12 V/DC MaxHeight 6 m 10 l/min
[18:04:54] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: ED 50% <- means: not running lnger thatn 30 min at full power or it will burn
[18:04:58] <IchGuckLive> auch Dauerbetrieb
[18:05:10] <IchGuckLive> at 9V
[18:05:15] <Loetmichel> at 6V it can run continous
[18:05:22] <Loetmichel> .. abd has no poiwer at all
[18:05:42] <Loetmichel> besides: these pums die after very few operating hours
[18:05:49] <Loetmichel> been there. seen that
[18:06:27] <IchGuckLive> ok i got 4 of them running at 8hr shifts with max 5hr now spindle time at one part at 15krpm 1,5KW spindle so i gueess it works fine
[18:07:18] <IchGuckLive> my Sebexone scale modelship got them iside at 13,8V runnig for 2hr in seewater NP at all
[18:07:30] <IchGuckLive> its just a manufacture inshurence
[18:09:06] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: do you kow how the game ended
[18:09:21] <Loetmichel> 1:0 says my wife
[18:09:24] <Loetmichel> for germany
[18:09:51] <IchGuckLive> oh i see müller ones more
[18:10:31] <Loetmichel> you mean: once more?
[18:10:40] <IchGuckLive> oh and USA gained also the secont placecard to continue
[18:10:43] <Loetmichel> i have no idea,i dont watch soccer
[18:11:47] <IchGuckLive> the Airbase only let 5k people to the public viewing at the shopingmal on the base
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[18:12:59] <Loetmichel> you are aware that "publich viewing" has a whole other meaning in america than in germany?
[18:13:03] <Loetmichel> ...just saying ;-)
[18:13:33] <Loetmichel> s( other/different
[18:16:39] -!- sirdancealot has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[18:24:08] <jdh> what does it mean?
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[18:27:57] <ssi> IchGuckLive: I'm back
[18:28:20] <IchGuckLive> hi
[18:28:29] <IchGuckLive> do not coat your plasmatable
[18:28:48] <IchGuckLive> you need the best GROUND to part as you can get
[18:29:05] <IchGuckLive> did you check the THCAD
[18:29:42] <ssi> not yet
[18:29:49] <ssi> coatig the table won't affect the ground
[18:29:59] <ssi> I ground the machine to the slats, and the slats won't be coated
[18:30:23] <Loetmichel> jdh: iirc it means "sowing a corpse in the coffin to the relatives" in america and "viewing a soccer game with (many) freinds on a big screen " in germany
[18:30:30] <Loetmichel> +h
[18:36:45] <jdh> I wish my router woudl show up before my wife gets back from europe.
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[18:52:16] <ssi> I should write a plasma 2d cam
[18:52:19] <ssi> simple
[18:55:26] <PetefromTn_> sheetcam is pretty well perfect for 2d stuff and it is cheap.
[18:55:52] <ssi> I own a license for it
[18:55:59] <PetefromTn_> me too LOL..
[18:56:00] <ssi> but I want more flexibility
[18:56:09] <PetefromTn_> such as..
[18:56:28] -!- i_tarzan_ [i_tarzan_!~i_tarzan@] has joined #linuxcnc
[18:56:30] <ssi> such as being able to run it on my computer, instead of doing CAM standing in the basement by the machine getting eaten by mosquitoes
[18:56:46] <PetefromTn_> why couldn't you run it on your computer?
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[18:57:09] <PetefromTn_> WTF?
[18:57:21] -!- cabbage_breath [cabbage_breath!484e44a4@gateway/web/freenode/ip.] has joined #linuxcnc
[18:57:23] <ssi> cause the developer gives zero shits about anyone who doesn't hump microsoft
[18:57:35] <ssi> and that in itself is enough incentive for me to not want to use it anymore
[18:57:45] <ssi> in fact I just saw this: "I am not sure if I am going to continue supporting the Linux version. It
[18:57:48] <ssi> adds a lot of extra maintenance work. The Windows version runs pretty
[18:57:50] <ssi> well under Wine so you can still use SheetCam under Linux.
[18:57:53] <ssi> that's more reason not to want to use it
[18:57:55] <PetefromTn_> are you on linux or somethin in your house?
[18:58:04] <ssi> only on the cnc boxes
[18:58:11] <ssi> everything else is OSX like a civilized human
[18:58:19] <PetefromTn_> OSX?
[18:58:26] <PetefromTn_> Forgive the ignorance LOL...
[18:58:45] <PetefromTn_> are ya sure you are civilized?
[18:58:50] <cabbage_breath> z height sensors for plasma cutters during operation: anyone have any experience?
[18:58:58] <ssi> cabbage_breath: yeah, tons :)
[18:59:00] <ssi> heh
[18:59:10] <cabbage_breath> ever tried ultrasonic?
[18:59:23] <ssi> PetefromTn_: next reason, I'd like to decouple plate thickness and arc voltage from cam
[18:59:28] <ssi> cabbage_breath: nope
[18:59:40] <ssi> cabbage_breath: for cut height, best height control is arc voltage
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[18:59:55] <cabbage_breath> i've read this
[18:59:56] <ssi> cabbage_breath: for initial sensing, I've done microswitch on floating head, and recently switched to ohmic sensing
[19:00:15] <cabbage_breath> ohmic sensing... go on please
[19:00:25] <MrHindsight> ultasonic is accurate enough, but the trend is to use ohmic contact
[19:00:30] <PetefromTn_> hey man if it floats your boat knock yerself out!!
[19:00:51] <MrHindsight> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FOhmic_contact&ei=1W2sU8C8FYeXqAbM6oLIBQ&usg=AFQjCNFWGs7Hq_cG2HL3-XkexJLERAoA3Q&bvm=bv.69837884,d.b2k
[19:01:05] <MrHindsight> sorry
[19:01:05] <ssi> cabbage_breath: basicaly you just sense the resistance between the shield cap and the plasma ground (ie the workpiece)
[19:01:07] <MrHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohmic_contact
[19:01:18] <ssi> cabbage_breath: when it makes contact, that'll go to near zero ohms, and you've found your plate
[19:01:29] <ssi> cabbage_breath: this is just for initial height sensing, not for torch height control while cutting
[19:01:47] <ssi> cabbage_breath: also I learned the hard way this weekend that you need to isolate the ohmic sense lines from your IO electronics while the torch is firing
[19:01:49] <cabbage_breath> ok why did you switch from floating switch to contact
[19:01:51] <PetefromTn_> sounds like a pain in the ass...
[19:02:01] <cabbage_breath> yes that was my gut reaction
[19:02:18] <PetefromTn_> ;)
[19:02:20] <cabbage_breath> (referring to the plasma noise interference)
[19:02:27] <ssi> cabbage_breath: mainly because the floating torch holder added some slop which contributed to some high speed head wiggle
[19:02:32] <cabbage_breath> lol Pete everything is a pita
[19:02:34] <ssi> cutting 350ipm or more I'd get wavy lines
[19:02:44] <cabbage_breath> good to know.
[19:02:44] <PetefromTn_> everything worth doing is generally yes...
[19:02:57] <ssi> secondary thing though is with floating head you have to measure the switch offset and calibrate it so that you get the right height touchoff after the probe
[19:03:03] <ssi> with ohmic sensing you end up pretty dead on with no offset
[19:03:25] <ssi> calibrating the switch isn't a big deal, but it's an extra bit of fiddling around
[19:03:31] <cabbage_breath> do you use a standale DAC to do arc voltage sensing?
[19:03:42] <ssi> well i currently use a candcnc LC-THC system
[19:03:51] <cabbage_breath> $$ how much
[19:03:52] <PetefromTn_> Well I am gonna get back out there and finish turning my Stainless barrel shroud mount, it is not gonna turn itself....
[19:03:56] <ssi> but I just bought a mesa thcad arc voltage AD board and I'm gonna migrate to it
[19:04:00] <cabbage_breath> peace brother
[19:04:09] <ssi> the LCTHC I paid around $200 for, but it may be more now; that was years ago
[19:04:15] <PetefromTn_> peace backatcha!
[19:04:16] <ssi> mozmck: if you're around you can answer that question
[19:04:39] <ssi> the THCAD is a fair bit cheaper, but it's just an interface; the actual control logic will be done in linuxcnc
[19:05:00] <ssi> I started with the LCTHC because it's a standalone thing with its own processor and designed to work with mach3, which is stupid and inflexible
[19:05:11] <cabbage_breath> yes i totally agree
[19:05:13] <ssi> now that the machine is on linuxcnc, I want to move that control logic into linuxcnc so I have arc voltage control from software
[19:05:28] <cabbage_breath> has this been done b4?
[19:05:38] <ssi> the LCTHC is designed to work with raw arc voltage, and the THCAD can be bought either for raw arc or for divided
[19:05:44] <ssi> my machine has a 50:1 divider output
[19:05:47] <ssi> yes it's been done before
[19:05:53] <cabbage_breath> to 5v level?
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[19:05:58] <ssi> 7v max
[19:06:18] <ssi> the THCAD has a 10v input and puts out a pwm train, frequency varies with input voltage
[19:06:54] <cabbage_breath> sorry not familiar with the term pwm train
[19:06:57] <mozmck> the LCTHC comes with a divider card - will not work with raw voltage.
[19:06:59] <cabbage_breath> i understand both words on their onw
[19:07:01] <cabbage_breath> own*
[19:07:02] <ssi> it's a square wave puse train
[19:07:06] <ssi> pulse
[19:07:17] <ssi> frequency of the pulses varies with the voltage sensed
[19:07:39] <cabbage_breath> ok so it's integrated?
[19:07:41] <ssi> so I think the idea is you hook it up to a single channel encoder counter in linuxcnc
[19:07:58] <ssi> I haven't worked with mine yet; got it in the mail monday
[19:08:07] <cabbage_breath> oh ok
[19:08:10] <ssi> what plasma machine are you using?
[19:08:27] <cabbage_breath> haven't decided
[19:08:34] <ssi> hypertherm then if possible
[19:08:43] <ssi> they're great machines and easy to deal with for machine interfacing
[19:08:52] <cabbage_breath> i heard about hypertherm 45
[19:08:56] <ssi> yeah that's what I have
[19:09:04] <ssi> I just added a machine torch to it
[19:09:14] <cabbage_breath> that just means no safety switch?
[19:09:19] <ssi> straight handle
[19:09:25] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BqmvjXCIIAAs-av.jpg:large
[19:09:26] <ssi> and no switch
[19:09:30] <cabbage_breath> ty
[19:09:39] <cabbage_breath> is that your machien
[19:09:42] <ssi> yes
[19:10:01] <ssi> see the ohmic sensing spade on the side of the torch body?
[19:10:32] <ssi> the copper shield cap slides underneath the lower arm and makes solid contact, and there's an upper .250" spade for a faston terminal
[19:10:34] <cabbage_breath> looks like a hose clmp?
[19:10:41] <ssi> the white wire dangling eventually became the ohmic sense line
[19:10:46] <ssi> yeah it's not a hose clamp
[19:11:12] <ssi> http://store.weldersource.com/images/product/medium/3520.jpg
[19:11:37] <DaViruz> http://www.blocket.se/vasternorrland/CNC_Fras_TERCO_54618826.htm?ca=9&w=3
[19:11:44] <DaViruz> anyone recognize the controller?
[19:11:44] <cabbage_breath> ok so it does displace the tip a bit when looking for the plate?
[19:12:07] <ssi> cabbage_breath: not sure what you mean
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[19:12:29] <cabbage_breath> the ohmic contact is higher than the tip of the nozzle
[19:12:44] <ssi> the whole shield cap becomes the ohmic contact
[19:12:47] <cabbage_breath> oh the nozzle contacts the ohmic contact
[19:12:48] <cabbage_breath> yeah
[19:12:49] <cabbage_breath> got it
[19:13:12] <ssi> so I've read several different ways to handle decoupling the sense lines from your electronics
[19:13:19] <ssi> the way I did it probably isn't the best way, but I think it'll work ok
[19:13:26] <cabbage_breath> optoisolators?
[19:13:27] <ssi> I just used a DPDT relay to switch both the sense and the ground lines
[19:13:38] <ssi> optos is what PCW suggested
[19:13:44] <cabbage_breath> pcw?
[19:14:07] <ssi> pcw is our resident machine interface electronics sage
[19:14:39] <cabbage_breath> sounds like a groovy dude
[19:15:08] <cabbage_breath> (or dudette)
[19:15:21] <ssi> eheh
[19:15:38] <cabbage_breath> so during operation you use the arc voltage. i assume you have a connection on the back of your machine for sensing this
[19:15:58] <ssi> yes the hypertherm has a 50:1 divided output on the back, as well as remote start input and arc transfer output
[19:16:07] <ssi> there's a machine interface CPC connector on the back
[19:16:18] <cabbage_breath> ok
[19:16:23] <ssi> unfortunately, as mozmck said, since I am using the LCTHC right now, I have to use raw arc voltage
[19:16:41] <ssi> so I actually opened up the machine and spliced in arc voltage and torch switch override for when I was using the hand torch
[19:16:49] <ssi> but I'm about to put it back to stock and use only the machine interface connector
[19:16:52] <cabbage_breath> sorry, why are you using lcthc? you hadn't used linuxcnc before ?
[19:17:21] <ssi> lcthc and mach3 were the quickest way to get started five years ago
[19:17:32] <cabbage_breath> word i understand that
[19:17:34] <ssi> I converted it from mach3 to linuxcnc three years ago, but the lcthc stayed around
[19:17:45] <ssi> the plasma table was the first machine I built
[19:17:52] <cabbage_breath> so now you are switching from lcthc to only linuxcnc
[19:17:57] <ssi> that's the goal
[19:18:03] <cabbage_breath> what is your controller?
[19:18:13] <ssi> mostly because right now I have to dial arc voltage on the lcthc, and I want to be able to do it in software
[19:18:27] <ssi> mozmck tells me the modern lcthc can do arc voltage over rs485, but mine is too old
[19:18:41] <DaViruz> ssi: so have you been cuting some fancy aluminium airplane parts?
[19:18:43] <ssi> I'm using a mesa 5i25 with a g540 for stepper drivers and a 7i75 for io breakout
[19:18:54] <ssi> DaViruz: I've cut a few, but not a ton
[19:18:56] <mozmck> not an lcthc, different model.
[19:19:00] <ssi> mozmck: ahhh
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[19:19:08] <ssi> yeah the MP series are too many dollarsigns for me :)
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[19:19:29] <mozmck> :)
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[19:19:47] <ssi> y'alls stuff is nice, but it's designed to cater to the mach crowd
[19:19:52] <ssi> ie doing tons in hardware cause their software sucks
[19:20:04] <ssi> we linuxcnc guys just need good interface electronics :)
[19:20:22] <mozmck> partly true.
[19:20:50] <mozmck> I'm no Mach fan at all.
[19:21:27] <mozmck> I run linuxcnc on my router table, and linux for everything except mach development.
[19:23:02] <ssi> I own a mach license from when I first built the plasma table, but I'll probably never use it again
[19:23:04] <mozmck> We sell mostly complete packages instead of cards, and support the whole thing. Lot's of people need/want that.
[19:23:11] <ssi> yeah I know that's a common thing
[19:23:22] <ssi> just not my style
[19:23:30] <ssi> nor the style of lots of people in this channel :)
[19:23:36] <mozmck> I understand that :)
[19:24:05] <jdh> what do you sell?
[19:24:07] <mozmck> you ought to hear some of the support calls we get anyhow :)
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[19:24:18] <mozmck> http://www.candcnc.com
[19:24:42] <ssi> jdh: he works for the folks that make the thc I use
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[19:30:08] <cabbage_breath> ssi: how do you configure linuxcnc to do the arc height sensing unless i already asked that
[19:30:23] <ssi> cabbage_breath: there's a THC component that does it
[19:30:32] <ssi> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/thc.9.html
[19:30:49] <cabbage_breath> ssi: thanks that should keep me busy for a while
[19:32:14] <ssi> np :)
[19:32:24] <ssi> I hope to have the thcad integration done fairly soon
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[19:33:34] <ssi> mailman is driving up the street now with my CPC pins
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[20:13:18] <ssi> agh
[20:13:29] <ssi> trying to get my trailer in shape to use, taillights aren't working
[20:13:39] <ssi> start taking them apart and they're full of ANGRY WASPS D:
[20:15:52] <Tom_itx> calm them with som RAID
[20:16:57] <ssi> I couldn't find any raid, so I used brake cleaner :P
[20:17:27] <cabbage_breath> ssi: just found this too http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Torch_Height_Control
[20:18:56] <ssi> nice
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[20:19:48] <cabbage_breath> ssi: with your ohmic sensor where does the ground lead touch the work
[20:20:46] <ssi> you need a solid ground for the plasma arc
[20:21:04] <ssi> I clamp my plasma ground clamp onto the slats, and there's a good ground from the slats to the work
[20:21:12] <ssi> ohmic ground is to the clamp
[20:21:24] <cabbage_breath> ok
[20:21:57] <cabbage_breath> and that's through a relay?
[20:22:08] <cabbage_breath> or the ground sense enables a relay
[20:22:29] <cabbage_breath> ohmic contact i should say
[20:22:52] <cabbage_breath> ..errr what should i say
[20:23:05] <cabbage_breath> ...proper terminology
[20:23:06] <ssi> through a relay
[20:23:09] <ssi> control the relay with another io
[20:23:15] <ssi> OR through an optoisolator
[20:23:40] <ssi> ugh the displaced wasps are out hunting for their nest and they look PISSED
[20:23:43] <ssi> and they're like 2" long
[20:24:08] <Tom_itx> go reassure them it will be ok
[20:24:12] <cabbage_breath> so you enable the ground sense? like "turn on look for ohmic contact feature" and it signals the relay and then a closed circuit due to z home would enable?
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[20:25:34] <ssi> cabbage_breath: yeah what I did last night was set up M100 and M101 custom M codes
[20:25:39] <cabbage_breath> they will kill flies
[20:25:42] <ssi> and those enable/disable the relays
[20:25:47] <cabbage_breath> ok gotcha
[20:26:32] <ssi> what I want to do next is wire something up in hal that'll prevent firing the torch if that relay signal is on
[20:26:34] <cabbage_breath> on which of the boards you said you had from mesa does the microprocessor that interprets the gcode reside? does linuxcnc make use of the host pc to do those interpretations?
[20:26:36] <ssi> not sure how to do that yet
[20:26:53] <ssi> there's no microprocessor that interprets gcode; linuxcnc does that
[20:27:02] <cabbage_breath> ok good to now
[20:27:08] <cabbage_breath> Know*
[20:27:08] <ssi> I was talking about a microprocessor in the lcthc which does the control loop to maintain arc voltage
[20:27:23] <ssi> however, in my systems there's mesa fpga cards which do hardware step generation
[20:27:27] <cabbage_breath> so the mesa cards just read send/recieve data
[20:27:29] <ssi> and/or encoder counting
[20:27:37] <cabbage_breath> oh
[20:27:48] <cabbage_breath> i'm not familiar with either of those terms, sorry
[20:27:55] <cabbage_breath> i can look it up
[20:28:01] <ssi> have you setup a linuxcnc system before?
[20:28:08] <cabbage_breath> no i'm researching it now
[20:28:11] <ssi> ok
[20:28:15] <ssi> well here's the gist of it
[20:28:22] <ssi> you have to send stepper pulses to run the motors
[20:28:30] <cabbage_breath> ok hurry before the wasps kill you
[20:28:38] <ssi> how fast you can do this is the limiting factor of your top speed of stepper systems
[20:29:02] <cabbage_breath> so far so good
[20:29:08] <ssi> how fast you can generate steps in a software-stepper system, like linuxcnc with a parallel port breakout, is limited by the latency of your system
[20:29:22] <ssi> since it's a realtime system, it can't go any faster than it can reliably guarantee the execution of the instructions
[20:29:25] <LeelooMinai> ssi: Would not drivers itself and maybe even steppers have limits too?
[20:29:36] <ssi> LeelooMinai: sure absolutely, but let's not complicate the picture :)
[20:29:47] <cabbage_breath> ooh, please complicate it
[20:29:53] <ssi> so in linuxcnc, you have two main "loops"
[20:29:57] <ssi> the stepper loop and the servo loop
[20:30:12] <ssi> the servo loop is how often it computes position solutions and commands position/velocity outputs
[20:30:26] <ssi> the stepper loop is how often it can change the state of the stepgen pins
[20:30:32] <ssi> step/direction pins that is
[20:30:41] <ssi> the stepper loop is necessarily much faster than the servo loop
[20:30:48] <ssi> faster/shorter/tighter, etc
[20:31:19] <ssi> hardware stepgen systems basically let you outsource the step generation to a piece of dedicated hardware that can do this in realtime, very very fast
[20:31:22] <cabbage_breath> ok so servo motors are good for slow processors while steppers are good for fast hardware
[20:31:32] <ssi> no, that's not what that means necessarily at all :)
[20:31:40] <cabbage_breath> good i didn't think so
[20:31:48] <cabbage_breath> what am i missing
[20:32:10] <ssi> servo loop exists in systems with steppers as well, in this case servo means "looking at the picture and deciding what changes to make to the joints to make sure axes stay within follow limits"
[20:32:14] <ssi> it has nothing to do with servo motors
[20:32:18] <cabbage_breath> oh ok
[20:32:21] <cabbage_breath> i get it
[20:32:32] <ssi> servo systems have similar high speed requirements in the form of encoder counters
[20:32:42] <cabbage_breath> so servo loop refers to vector calculations and stepper loop refers to translating that to digital motion
[20:32:46] <ssi> yes
[20:33:25] <ssi> so what the mesa IO cards do, is they have an fpga on a pci card which handles doing all the stepper loop calculations
[20:33:51] <cabbage_breath> does linuxcnc program the fpga?
[20:34:06] <LeelooMinai> No‚it has firmware on it
[20:34:09] <ssi> there's a special driver in linuxcnc which communicates with special firmware on the fpga, and it communicates position information to the fpga, and the fpga handles transalting that to step generation in realtime
[20:34:21] <ssi> some of the mesa cards are programmed by linuxcnc, yes
[20:34:34] <ssi> some of them are pre-programmed and have an eeprom onboard
[20:34:41] <LeelooMinai> That firmware can generate pulses for steppers based on higher-level requests linuxcnc will sent to it, through pci(e)
[20:34:54] <k6mle_> Can I get a recommendation for a Gecko driver? I'm wanting to put a trio of NEMA 23's on an old MaxNC-10.
[20:35:07] <LeelooMinai> At least that's how I imagine it at this stage
[20:35:17] <ssi> LeelooMinai: that's exactly right
[20:35:47] <ssi> there's some other nice benefits, for instance there's spare bandwidth to send packed binary data to the fpga which can then convert it into gobs and gobs of gpio via daughterboards
[20:35:53] <LeelooMinai> ssi: But I did not know linuxcnc can program the fpgas - does it do through some mesa driver api?
[20:36:15] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the older cards like the 5i20 send the bitfile over the pci bus when the hal driver is loaded
[20:36:34] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the difference is that they have dedicated hardware pci bus interface chips on them
[20:36:40] <LeelooMinai> A, ok, but 5i25 does not do that any more?
[20:36:50] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the newer ones have soft pci cores on them, so there's a bootstrapping issue
[20:37:04] <ssi> ditching the pci interface made them cheaper
[20:37:05] <cabbage_breath> what kind of speed boost does the mesa card give you? est percentage?
[20:37:26] <ssi> cabbage_breath: honestly I don't know... I jsut know that I never worry about latency the way everyone else does, and I have tons more interfacing ability
[20:37:37] <Tom_itx> jup
[20:37:45] <ssi> LeelooMinai: 5i25 has eeprom onboard that you can flash manually via a linux utility, but you have to reboot the card in order for it to take effect
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[20:37:55] <cabbage_breath> any open hardware versions of the mesa card?
[20:37:55] <LeelooMinai> ssi: So if wrong bit file is send to 5i52 and it kills PCI... what then?
[20:37:56] <ssi> LeelooMinai: firmware changes infrequently if ever, so that's a pretty good compromise
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[20:38:04] <Tom_itx> ssi, is that how you update the pin files?
[20:38:19] <Tom_itx> or do they take similar bit files as the older boards?
[20:38:21] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the eeprom has two bitfiles worth of space on it, top half is a fallback program if the bottom half doesn't work
[20:38:22] <cabbage_breath> LeelooMinai: what does hal driver mean
[20:38:29] <ssi> LeelooMinai: then there's a second write protected eeprom on board that you can switch to with a jumper
[20:38:37] <ssi> LeelooMinai: there's LOTS of belt-and-suspenders redundancy bulit in
[20:38:48] <ssi> LeelooMinai: PLUS, there's a jtag port so you can manually flash the eeprom if you have the tools
[20:39:01] <ssi> pcw really covered his bases on the 5i25 :)
[20:39:11] <LeelooMinai> Right, I was actually talking about adding to fimrware to those cards using jtag port yesterday
[20:39:16] <LeelooMinai> With the "mesa guy"
[20:39:23] <ssi> yea I saw some of that backscroll
[20:39:27] <ssi> you have vhdl experience?
[20:40:08] <ssi> cabbage_breath: hal is the hardware abstraction layer, which is kind of a virtual wiring system for connecting the hardware up to higher level systems
[20:40:23] <LeelooMinai> experience, not, but I have programming experience, and I went through some tutorials about verilog, and read a lot obout fpgas, and now I read about vhdl so I will be able to add to mesa firmware for my purposes.
[20:40:31] <LeelooMinai> I want to read ditial scales basically using it
[20:40:34] <ssi> cabbage_breath: the firmware that runs on mesa cards is called hostmot2, and there's a hostmot2 driver for hal which adds hal pins and parameters to the hal system
[20:41:13] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I've got some vhdl and some verilog experience... I'm no pro, but I've been planning on diving into the hm2 firmware myself, so we can compare notes
[20:41:20] <LeelooMinai> Right, I looked at the verilog code for it yesterday and some docs - looks pretty extension-friendly
[20:41:46] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I want to try to design some hm2 compatible hardware for funsies
[20:41:48] <cabbage_breath> wow need a min to read all this haha
[20:41:57] <cabbage_breath> thanks friends
[20:42:03] <ssi> cabbage_breath: np
[20:42:19] <ssi> cabbage_breath: I think you're starting to see this is a complicated world, but it's not too bad, one step at a time :)
[20:42:28] <LeelooMinai> Also the Mesa Guy estimated that only half of fpgs space is used for normal firmware, so adding some code like I need should be easily doable
[20:43:07] <ssi> yeah definitely
[20:43:19] <LeelooMinai> I only need to decide if I want to develop on the actual mesa card or some separate spartan6 one (not to expensive though)
[20:43:31] <ssi> I would just work directly on the mesa card if I were in your shoes
[20:43:50] <ssi> no sense in buying a second dev board and then fumbling with figuring out how they differ, etc
[20:43:58] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, but it would need to be plugged into pcie, I think - could get werid as I would need separate pc for that
[20:44:14] <ssi> you could get a pcie connector and put it on a breadboard with power
[20:44:18] <ssi> just need to power it really
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[20:45:04] <LeelooMinai> Right, I guess. Though at later stage I would also need how to get at fpga/data from the pc level
[20:45:11] <ssi> yeah, but riddle me this
[20:45:14] <ssi> if you have a devboard
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[20:45:25] <ssi> how are you going to communicate via pcie from a pc to it?
[20:45:44] <LeelooMinai> That's what I just meant - at later stage I need to plug it into the pcie anyways
[20:46:18] <LeelooMinai> It's also not expensive for what it is - I guess I will just use it to develop hoping I will not explode something in the process:)
[20:46:25] <ssi> they're pretty damn resilient
[20:46:45] <ssi> honestly you could develop on it with it in the machine you're developing on
[20:47:01] <LeelooMinai> Which is two floors down in the basement:)
[20:47:02] <ssi> only problem you might run into is needing to powercycle the fpga
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[20:47:20] <ssi> if you can't do that without powercycling the computer, that'll get old quickly
[20:47:25] <ssi> what machine are you on right now?
[20:47:46] <LeelooMinai> My main desktop pc is in the basement - I have zillion cables running to my room - 4 hdmi, few ethernet ones, few usb ofer ethernet, etc.
[20:48:02] <ssi> lol two story high remote kvm? awesome
[20:48:26] <Tom_itx> yeah i had to break down and get another spool of cat5 the other day
[20:48:31] <LeelooMinai> Well, it was pita to run those cables, but it's really great - no noise, no heat, no problems
[20:48:45] <ssi> so just build a little robot arm that sits next to the computer in the basement and allows you to remotely manipulate the hardware you're working on!
[20:48:49] <ssi> :D
[20:48:51] <LeelooMinai> And computers have it nice and cold in the basement
[20:49:13] <LeelooMinai> Maybe I could get some tiny mb with pcie slot and just put it on the desk
[20:49:27] <ssi> yeah probably
[20:49:35] <ssi> and then when you're done, you'll have a dedicated pc for the machine :)
[20:50:14] <LeelooMinai> I actually already have it - but it's normal-sized - could not have it on the desk
[20:50:32] <ssi> you don't necessarily need it on the desk to develop mesa firmware
[20:50:39] <LeelooMinai> I guess I am just used to haveing dev boards close to me on the desk, so I can see them and connect to them easily
[20:50:47] <ssi> your io will be remotely connected to the 7i76 via db25 cable
[20:50:55] <ssi> and you can flash the eeprom with a command line tool over pci
[20:51:08] <ssi> so put the '76 on your desk and interface it with your scales
[20:51:16] <ssi> develop, flash, test, repeat
[20:51:35] <LeelooMinai> Right, sounds good
[20:51:51] <LeelooMinai> I will need to buy some xilinx programmer clone - the original one is overpriced
[20:52:03] <ssi> yeah, I have one, lemme find it so I can tell you what it is
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[20:52:09] <ssi> er wait never mind
[20:52:11] <ssi> you don't need it at all
[20:52:16] <ssi> you can flash via command line tool :)
[20:52:16] <LeelooMinai> Use pcie?
[20:52:35] <LeelooMinai> Right, I have the μC setups in mind all the time
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[20:54:03] <LeelooMinai> I think they also have fpga cards controled over ethernet there
[20:54:11] <ssi> LeelooMinai: honestly, you can probably get quicker results for developing a scale interface on a microcontroller and interfacing it with hal via an encoder counter or something
[20:54:24] <ssi> yeah they do, i haven't tried any of them yet but that might be a good option for your development work
[20:54:38] <ssi> I'm not sure if there are hm2 hal drivers that do ethernet yet though
[20:54:39] <LeelooMinai> ssi: Yes, I can do that, but I like the idea of using those fpgas
[20:55:00] <LeelooMinai> ssi: THey just sit there with all those ios waiting to add to them something like that
[20:55:08] <ssi> I like the idea too... don't let me dissuade you from it, but I will warn you that HDL is HARD compared to regular software :)
[20:55:23] <LeelooMinai> And I can reconfigure it at any time, add whatever number of channels I need, etc.
[20:55:44] <ssi> but when you get into it let me know, I'm definitely interested in helping, cause I love working with stuff at that level
[20:55:52] <PCW> You can use the drivers raw-read/raw-write facilities to poke at the new registers if you like
[20:56:17] <ssi> PCW: on the ethernet cards you mean?
[20:56:29] <PCW> on any hm2 card
[20:56:47] <LeelooMinai> PCW: You mean if someone adds to firmware?
[20:56:48] <ssi> I need to order one of the ethernet cards and see how they do.. i love that idea
[20:57:07] <PCW> the hals driver has facilities to do raw register access
[20:57:14] <PCW> hal driver
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[20:57:43] <ssi> PCW: you mentioned yesterday that the hal driver doesn't have spi support yet; I figured it might not have ethernet support yet either
[20:57:48] <PCW> so unsupported modules can be peeked/poked at
[20:58:00] <PCW> there is hm2_eth
[20:58:05] <ssi> ah ok
[20:58:24] <LeelooMinai> PCW: And how can this driver be accessed? Is it tied to linuxcnc, or one can just use it from any programming language level?
[20:58:37] <PCW> though HAL
[20:59:17] <ssi> LeelooMinai: there's command line utilities for manipulating hal
[20:59:20] <LeelooMinai> Is HAL some more general concept on linux then?
[20:59:29] <ssi> I haven't looked into how to do it from a programming language, but obviously linuxcnc does it :P
[20:59:34] <LeelooMinai> I thought it's linuxcnc "creation", but maybe not?
[20:59:35] <ssi> it's a linuxcnc component
[20:59:44] <PCW> hal is linuxcnc's way of interfacing to hardware
[21:00:13] <ssi> do the hm2_XXX drivers actually become kernel modules?
[21:00:23] <LeelooMinai> Ok, I know one can g-code control linuxcnc, but are there ways of automating it preogramatically in other ways?
[21:00:32] <PCW> yes
[21:00:42] <ssi> LeelooMinai: yeah absolutely
[21:01:09] <skunkworks> LeelooMinai: awesome work - using what you had for tools!
[21:01:10] <LeelooMinai> So I guess It would be some software "plugin" -> linuxcnc -> hal -> fgpa registers?
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[21:01:40] <LeelooMinai> skunkworks: Thx - CNC MacGyver style, yes:)
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[21:01:44] <PCW> hal is independent of linuxcnc (you can run HAL standalone)
[21:01:47] <skunkworks> :)
[21:02:02] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I think what you're going to want to do is create a hdl module in the firmware that reads your scales and turns them into floats, then write an extension to the hm2 driver to expose those as hal pins
[21:02:12] <ssi> then you can read them the same as reading an encoder position
[21:02:39] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: hrhr, like my first?
[21:02:56] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2859
[21:03:25] <LeelooMinai> Ok, I guess not that MacGyver:)
[21:03:41] <ssi> hahaha
[21:03:59] <Loetmichel> was made of parts i had laying around and a bunch of acrylics
[21:04:02] <ssi> some of us take the iterative approach :)
[21:04:05] <LeelooMinai> That's a pretty weird mix of parts there
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[21:05:12] <Loetmichel> but it worked
[21:05:19] <Loetmichel> ... for about 8 hrs
[21:05:35] <LeelooMinai> Then it melted? :)
[21:05:35] <Loetmichel> then the m5 threaded rods had eaten the brass nuts
[21:06:16] -!- Thetawaves [Thetawaves!~Thetawave@186-51-178-69.gci.net] has joined #linuxcnc
[21:06:34] <ssi> aw
[21:07:04] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: CaptHindsight This is what $1200, two replacement lasers, and 3 weeks gets ya. Oh, and my new philosophy in life... http://i60.tinypic.com/rw51tz.jpg (The offset is the operator, not the machine =)
[21:07:15] -!- FinboySlick has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[21:07:21] <zeeshan|3> wooho
[21:07:22] -!- fogl2 has quit [Ping timeout: 244 seconds]
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[21:07:28] <zeeshan|3> new tooooolls
[21:07:33] <ssi> Jymmm: what was the problem with the original laser?
[21:07:35] * zeeshan|3 likes tools
[21:07:59] <Jymmm> ssi: 12 years old
[21:08:09] <Tom_itx> Jymmm... what offset??
[21:08:11] <Tom_itx> :)
[21:08:24] <Jymmm> the 1st and 3nd replacement was due to the diode beng misaligned form the laser
[21:08:33] <ssi> what kind of lasers are these
[21:08:33] <Jymmm> 2nd*
[21:08:44] <Jymmm> ssi: RF Excited CO2
[21:09:02] <ssi> hm
[21:09:43] <Jymmm> btw the coin is 1.5" diameter
[21:09:49] <ssi> and $1200 buys you how much power?
[21:09:57] <jdh> 30w?
[21:10:05] <Jymmm> Not BUY, swap tube.
[21:10:18] <ssi> they give you a replacement credit for the old tube?
[21:10:23] <Jymmm> that's JUST the tube (and it's RF boards)
[21:10:34] <ssi> i understand that, I didn't expect it to be the whole machine
[21:10:37] <Jymmm> apx 25lbs
[21:10:44] <Jymmm> Exchanged
[21:10:53] <ssi> I'm guessing this is different from the typical sealed co2 lasers I'm used to?
[21:11:08] <ssi> and by "used to" I mean "have read about"
[21:11:17] <Jymmm> Yeah, not a chinese glass tube,
[21:11:33] <ssi> k
[21:11:49] <ssi> is this a commercial machine, or something you built?
[21:11:54] <Jymmm> 48V Ps and a PWM signal and you can fire this thing
[21:11:59] <ssi> hm neat
[21:12:04] <Jymmm> ULS M300 google it =)
[21:12:29] <ssi> aha
[21:13:12] <ssi> I want a small laser
[21:13:26] <Jymmm> how small?
[21:13:31] <Jymmm> or do you mean cheap?
[21:13:36] <ssi> I'd be thrilled if I could cut 1/4" plywood
[21:13:45] <ssi> cheap relative to metal lasers
[21:13:45] <Jymmm> that is NOT small =)
[21:13:48] <ssi> but not necessarily CHEAP
[21:14:01] <ssi> I know it's not the smallest out there
[21:14:04] <ssi> probably takes 80W or mor
[21:14:07] <Jymmm> plywood is not metal either =)
[21:14:34] <ssi> yeah I realize there's zero hope of a metal cutting laser on the money I'll ever hope to dedicate to machines
[21:14:41] <Jymmm> I (now) CAN cut 1/4" softwood
[21:14:51] <ssi> I basically want a machine that could cut parts for wood wings
[21:14:59] <ssi> noseribs, gussets, etc
[21:15:03] <Jymmm> but it has to be natural, not manmade composite
[21:15:04] <ssi> gussets are typically 1/16 plywood
[21:15:14] <LeelooMinai> I would be satisfied with some laser that can cut acrylic
[21:15:15] <ssi> noseribs I think are 3/16" or so
[21:15:24] <ssi> LeelooMinai: yes acrylic I'd want to cut as well
[21:15:32] <ssi> I'm pretty sure any machine that can cut plywood can cut acrylic
[21:15:39] <LeelooMinai> Hopefully diode laser, not those co2 tubes
[21:15:47] <Jymmm> hahahahahahaha
[21:15:49] <ssi> I dunno if you can cut much acrylic with diodes
[21:15:59] <Jymmm> LeelooMinai: You're not in Kansas anymore Dorthy!
[21:16:01] <LeelooMinai> I read about some people doing it
[21:16:17] <Jymmm> maybe 1/16"
[21:16:28] <Jymmm> you can ENGRAVE
[21:16:31] <LeelooMinai> It's just a matter of bigger diode laser - not some tiny one from a blue-ray player
[21:16:49] <Jymmm> "Yes Dear"
[21:16:52] <ssi> I'm reading now people recommending 60W co2 to cut 6mm acrylic
[21:16:56] <ssi> there are no 60W diodes
[21:17:01] <ssi> there are 3W diodes :)
[21:17:08] <LeelooMinai> I think they guy I read aobut used some $200 one - not sure on specifics
[21:17:34] <Deejay> gn8
[21:17:39] <Jymmm> Deejay: GN9
[21:17:40] <ssi> with some of the biggest diodes I imagine you could cut some pretty thin acrylic, but it would take AGES
[21:17:56] <Deejay> :)
[21:17:57] <PCW> there are 300 W or so diodes
[21:18:07] <Jymmm> PCW: link?
[21:18:17] <DaViruz> i read somewhere that led wavelengths were much more efficient for cutting than co2 wavelengths
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[21:18:55] <DaViruz> and therefore you were supposed to be able to get away with vastly lower power output
[21:18:55] <ssi> heh if I could get my hands on a diode that'd cut 1/4" acrylic I'd buy it and build a machine next week :D
[21:19:13] <DaViruz> (dunno about acrylic specifically though)
[21:19:44] <ssi> the scary thing about lasers to me right now is a) dealing with tubes, and b) optics
[21:19:49] <ssi> diode machine would eliminate both of those
[21:19:56] <LeelooMinai> http://hackaday.com/2014/06/02/the-laser-cutter-attachment-for-a-3d-printer/
[21:19:58] <Jymmm> ssi: nope
[21:20:04] <ssi> no?
[21:20:07] <PCW> acrylic i sprobably pretty transparent to 808 nm
[21:20:19] <LeelooMinai> ^ I think this is the article. He claims 3/16" wood and 1/4" acrylic
[21:20:28] <Jymmm> ssi: oh, I see what you're saying, I was thinking safety
[21:20:45] kanzure_ is now known as kanzure
[21:20:53] <ssi> nah I don't care about safety :)
[21:21:16] <LeelooMinai> SOunds like last words of someone:)
[21:21:16] <PCW> http://www.ebay.com/itm/100W-500W-600W-808nm-QCW-High-Power-Laser-Diode-Bar-Array-DPSS-/150968352221?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item23266a3ddd
[21:21:44] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I've managed so far :P
[21:22:02] <ssi> PCW: dang
[21:22:09] <PCW> trick is collectiing and focusing
[21:22:19] <LeelooMinai> Here you go... with those diodes I can believe one can cut that acrylic
[21:22:44] <ssi> LeelooMinai: https://sites.google.com/site/dtrlpf/home/diodes/445-m140-didoes I think he's using the 2W laser from there
[21:22:46] <jdh> 25% duty cycle
[21:23:21] <ssi> he claims 1/4" plywood with a 2w laser... I want to see it happening and know what feedrate
[21:23:26] <ssi> er, 1/4" acrylic rather
[21:23:46] <kanzure> laser diodes get around the tubular problems
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[21:24:09] <PCW> there are CW versions
[21:24:31] <PCW> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200W-808nm-CW-High-Power-Laser-Diode-Stack-for-Heat-Treatment-Very-Powerful-/270918321913?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f13fd86f9
[21:24:54] <LeelooMinai> Ok, that's a bit on the scary side for me
[21:25:17] <ssi> LeelooMinai: if you're not scared, you're not pushing hard enough yet :D
[21:25:21] <PCW> not very mistake tolerant
[21:25:42] <ssi> holy crap that's nuts
[21:25:57] <LeelooMinai> Even with small laser I would first have to enclose my cnc completely and use camera or something inside:)
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[21:26:32] <LeelooMinai> Or at least window that would completely block the wavelength
[21:26:34] <kanzure> PCW: show me other fun things?
[21:26:35] <ssi> LeelooMinai: make an enclosure with the right windows
[21:27:55] <LeelooMinai> That 200W setup would work nice as a burglar security system over the doorstep
[21:28:08] <ssi> LeelooMinai: with dubious legality :)
[21:28:28] <LeelooMinai> I don't think they would ever come back though
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[21:28:32] <DaViruz> spontaneous human combustion, don't you just hate when that happens?
[21:28:32] <DaViruz> :)
[21:29:25] <kanzure> s/spontaneous/deliberate
[21:29:44] <ssi> lolol
[21:30:13] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/0-5-1-2-3-4-5W-808nm-High-Power-Laser-Diode-Brand-New-TO3-package/150960874002?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D23772%26meid%3D7899680953907777618%26pid%3D100009%26prg%3D10164%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D150968352221
[21:30:18] <ssi> 5W is $140
[21:31:01] <SpeedEvil> That's not ridiculous for new lasers.
[21:31:14] <ssi> I guess you'd need some additional focusing for a laser like that?
[21:31:22] <LeelooMinai> Not entirely cheap, but when compared to those crazy co2 setups - much nicer for many reasons.
[21:31:22] <ssi> I imagine it's not tight enough for precision cutting as is?
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[21:32:50] <SpeedEvil> ssi: It has a 9 * 30 degree beam
[21:32:50] <PCW> like all diode lasers has large divergence so needs optics
[21:33:01] <SpeedEvil> you need at least one lens to focus it into a point.
[21:33:04] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-808nm-20000mw-20Watt-Infrared-Focusable-high-power-laser-burning-TTL/171179840149?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D23772%26meid%3D7899624633055020910%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D10164%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D270918321913&rt=nc
[21:33:05] <DaViruz> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Industrial-808nm-5000mw-5watt-Infrared-Focusable-high-power-laser-burning-W-TTL-/180938576225?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a20c79161
[21:33:22] <SpeedEvil> And that point will have a very large cone angle into it so cutting materials is a problem
[21:33:51] <ssi> SpeedEvil: ie you need height control to keep the locus of the cone at the center of the mat'l thickness?
[21:34:36] <SpeedEvil> That too
[21:35:06] <SpeedEvil> http://www.ebay.com/itm/251309306307?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT is rather eassier to use
[21:35:13] <SpeedEvil> Though will still need a lens
[21:36:18] <DaViruz> the 20W unit looked interesting, but maybe a bit heavy/bulky to move around
[21:36:34] <ssi> fiber coupled would be nice
[21:36:40] <ssi> on a smallish machine could have a VERY light effector
[21:37:00] <PCW> i have a 120W fiber coupled laser i have been afraid to try
[21:37:33] <PCW> weird wavelength: 835 nm
[21:37:38] <LeelooMinai> Just wear sunglasses:)
[21:37:50] <SpeedEvil> I jsut bought a 2W blue to play with
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[21:38:11] <ssi> my friend has a 3W blue diode that I'm trying to get him to sell me cheap
[21:38:37] <Cylly> 835mn?
[21:38:45] <Cylly> thats deep infrared, isnt it`?
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[21:38:59] <ssi> yea I think so
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[21:39:10] <LeelooMinai> The only way I would operate a laser would be if the whole machine would be fully enclosed
[21:39:13] <ssi> co2 is even longer though, 10um
[21:39:30] <ssi> this is the laser my friend has:
[21:39:31] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/450nm-Blue-3-Watt-CW-OEM-Diode-Laser-CNC-Milling-Lightshows-ILDA-Science-/181303097579?pt=US_Stage_Lighting_Single_Units&hash=item2a3681b8eb
[21:39:51] <ssi> 3W CW
[21:40:06] <ssi> could be fun... kinda big to mount directly on a small machine head tho
[21:40:25] <LeelooMinai> Just don't shine it onto planes flying above
[21:40:38] <ssi> what makes you think I'd do that? :P
[21:40:53] <Loetmichel> ssi: that is what mirrors and a lens is for
[21:40:53] <LeelooMinai> Stories I read
[21:40:57] <DaViruz> don't shine it down from planes either
[21:41:06] <ssi> DaViruz: I'd be more likely to do that :D
[21:41:14] <DaViruz> i had a hunch :)
[21:41:25] <ssi> Loetmichel: yeah, which is bad, but could be good too... could build a machine and later upgrade it to a co2 tube
[21:41:49] <kanzure> why do they even bother selling those co2 tube laser cutters?
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[21:42:16] <SpeedEvil> ssi: the bare diodes are ~$50
[21:42:20] <Loetmichel> kanzure: because they work?
[21:42:34] <ssi> SpeedEvil: the 3w 445 you mean
[21:42:36] <kanzure> so do the others?
[21:42:43] <LeelooMinai> They were cheapest option at the tiem. But I think those tube degrade and break and all in all, I would not like to have them
[21:42:44] <SpeedEvil> Diode lasers are fucking annoying in many ways
[21:43:01] <ssi> yeah i'd much rather have a tube laser
[21:43:01] <SpeedEvil> Sure - there is the 3V or whatever, and beam.
[21:43:09] <ssi> there's just a lot of crap to overcome in building a machine for one
[21:43:13] <kanzure> what are some of the many ways?
[21:43:14] <SpeedEvil> But - it's not a very good beam, as the source size is quite large
[21:43:16] <ssi> and the cheap tubes I've heard nothing but bad things about
[21:43:36] <ssi> my plan was always to build a machine around a cheap tube, then buy a good us made 80W or so tube
[21:43:39] <SpeedEvil> kanzure: the beam is quite bad, as the source area of the diode is quite large physically
[21:43:41] <kanzure> yes, for example, i've heard of people building tubes that leak at hilariously high rates
[21:43:51] <kanzure> (you have to replace the tube within a few thousand hours)
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[21:43:59] <Loetmichel> ssi: friend had a 80W co2 tube
[21:44:06] <Loetmichel> that was very goood
[21:44:17] <Loetmichel> nearly circular spot.
[21:44:19] <ssi> yeah, I've heard good things about quality made co2 tubes
[21:44:22] <ssi> in the $1500 range :)
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[21:44:42] <SpeedEvil> kanzure: For example - if you have a 300um diameter source, that emits into a 30*9 degree beam - as is typical, - you basically can't get it down to a 1mm beam at under 10 degree divergance
[21:44:54] <ssi> it's these you gotta look out for:
[21:44:55] <ssi> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-40W-CO2-Laser-Tube-Water-Cooling-for-the-Laser-Engraver-700mm-/291176775648?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43cb7cffe0
[21:44:58] <kanzure> is there a way to do threading with a laser?
[21:45:32] <LeelooMinai> With wooden screws?
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[21:45:39] <Loetmichel> http://bambuser.com/v/2270058
[21:46:59] <ssi> Loetmichel: yusss speeeed :)
[21:47:11] <ssi> Loetmichel: what's the thickness of that wood, do you know?
[21:47:21] <Loetmichel> IIRC something about 4mm
[21:47:28] <Loetmichel> plywood
[21:48:07] <ssi> I like that quite a bit
[21:48:19] <LeelooMinai> That guy putting fingers onto the table makes me a bit nervous
[21:48:34] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: finges:no problem
[21:48:40] <Loetmichel> but we had no glasses ;-)
[21:49:00] <Loetmichel> btw, thats MarkusBecs laser. ask him about it ;-)
[21:49:16] <DaViruz> i'm guessing 10µm laser is fairly benign to the eyes?
[21:49:43] <DaViruz> i'd think the eye lens is opaque to it
[21:49:58] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: sing in the laser lab: "Protect your remaining eye"
[21:50:01] <ssi> I am pretty sure 10u can hurt your eyes
[21:50:15] <Loetmichel> no, it the beam gets into your eye: instant blindless at 80W
[21:50:23] <MarkusBec> LeelooMinai: pff nervous we light our cigarets with the laser
[21:50:32] <LeelooMinai> laser + eye + benign just does not compute
[21:50:42] <SpeedEvil> It is.
[21:50:44] <DaViruz> Loetmichel: sure, but i'm thinking reflected light
[21:50:47] <SpeedEvil> But corneal burns aren't good
[21:50:47] <ssi> MarkusBec: what's your plywood max thickness and feedrate on that machine?
[21:51:01] <SpeedEvil> However - you need way, way more power to do that than retinal burns
[21:51:14] <MarkusBec> you can not blind you with a 10µm laser
[21:51:16] <SpeedEvil> As the lens isn't concentrating by several thousand times
[21:51:46] <DaViruz> at least you can replace the cornea :)
[21:51:47] <MarkusBec> but you can burn cornea
[21:51:53] <MarkusBec> yout
[21:51:54] <MarkusBec> r
[21:52:05] <ssi> DaViruz: is there an instructable for that?!
[21:52:25] <DaViruz> almost, i saw a prety detailed video once
[21:52:34] <ssi> MarkusBec: that's a really nice machine
[21:52:41] <MarkusBec> max feedrade 15000mm/min
[21:52:42] <DaViruz> they used a small hole punch to remove the cornea
[21:52:47] <DaViruz> it didn't look very pleasant at all
[21:52:56] <MarkusBec> max thickness we cut
[21:53:05] <MarkusBec> 10mm polywood
[21:53:09] <MarkusBec> 15mm plexy
[21:53:12] <ssi> that'd be perfect for me
[21:53:21] <ssi> 15m/min is about the max rates on my plasma table
[21:53:26] <DaViruz> that's pretty impressive
[21:53:37] <ssi> MarkusBec: what feedrate can you run 10mm wood at?
[21:53:59] <MarkusBec> hm f600
[21:54:09] <LeelooMinai> That reminds me - in terms of speed on cnc mill, what is usuall the most limiting "bottleneck" - stepper itself, driver, or pulse generating hardware, etc.?
[21:54:26] <ssi> that's not too bad at all
[21:54:36] <DaViruz> mine was stepper driver, until i changed to geckodrive
[21:54:40] <DaViruz> now it's the steppers i'm pretty sure
[21:54:42] <MarkusBec> LeelooMinai: stepper itself
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[21:54:53] <SpeedEvil> LeelooMinai: if you're not limited by the stepper, you've picked the wrong driver/...
[21:54:55] <MarkusBec> the have no torq at high rpm
[21:55:04] <ssi> LeelooMinai: if you run mesa and decent drives, the actual torque limits will probably be your limit
[21:55:08] <SpeedEvil> you do need high voltage current drive
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[21:55:25] <ssi> and for me I always hit accel limits first... I don't like slow accel, and that's where it starts to show
[21:55:33] <MarkusBec> simply use ac servos
[21:55:47] <MarkusBec> ist cheaper than High speed steppers with drivers
[21:55:48] <LeelooMinai> For ow I just have cheap Wantai DQ542MA drivers - not sure if those gecko ones are much better (?)
[21:55:53] <ssi> MarkusBec: agreed
[21:56:00] <MarkusBec> cheap set AC servos => 250 bugs
[21:56:01] <ssi> LeelooMinai: your drives will be fine
[21:56:13] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the limiting factor on speed for your machine is the ballscrews ;)
[21:56:32] <LeelooMinai> In what way?
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[21:56:49] <ssi> screw axes are far slower than belt axes
[21:56:51] <DaViruz> i had hobbycnc drivers prior, those are pretty crappy.
[21:57:00] <MarkusBec> in germin its named grenzfrequenz
[21:57:05] <ssi> but more precise and rigid, which is what you want for that machine
[21:57:11] <ssi> just don't worry about jog rates
[21:57:13] <Loetmichel> *cringe*
[21:57:23] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: Bucks. german.
[21:57:31] <ssi> DaViruz: my first drives were hobbycnc, and I blew them shits up
[21:57:38] <MarkusBec> the maximum frequenz you can rotate a gear or ballscrew
[21:57:45] <MarkusBec> Loetmichel: :)
[21:57:46] <DaViruz> i sold mine to someone here
[21:57:50] <LeelooMinai> ssi: Ok, but... they have some spped limit that causes them to do what?
[21:57:57] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: for any totaring shaft tere is a rpm where it will start to oscillate
[21:58:08] <Loetmichel> rotating
[21:58:10] <DaViruz> actually i sold them to someone who just had blown theirs up
[21:58:12] <ssi> LeelooMinai: screws will whip if you run them too fast
[21:58:20] <ssi> LeelooMinai: like a plucked guitar string
[21:58:40] <Loetmichel> ssi: right
[21:58:41] <LeelooMinai> Is such data usually provided with ballscrews?
[21:59:00] <Loetmichel> no, thats physics
[21:59:04] <ssi> nah, it's more a mechanical engineering function of their length, diameter, and modulus of elasticity
[21:59:08] <ssi> or osmething
[21:59:10] <ssi> :)
[21:59:12] <Loetmichel> because it has a bunch of parameters
[21:59:41] <Loetmichel> as "lengh, dimater, kind of bearings at the ends, lateral force on the screws, etc
[21:59:51] <ssi> yeah
[21:59:55] <LeelooMinai> SO what can I expenct of such 16mm ballscrew of 500mm length more or less in terms of speed?
[22:00:19] <ssi> LeelooMinai: how much speed do you expect to need?
[22:00:26] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai. i had a 16mm ballscrew 1700mm long
[22:00:50] <LeelooMinai> I don't really "need" anything specific - I just want to test the limists of what I will be able to do
[22:00:52] <ssi> LeelooMinai: your machine will run fast enough to suit your needs, and the drivers shouldn't be a bottleneck
[22:00:55] <SpeedEvil> LeelooMinai: Well - what's the pitch
[22:01:02] <ssi> you'll get an idea of what those limits are once you start running it
[22:01:07] <SpeedEvil> LeelooMinai: multiply by the RPM, and you have the linear speed
[22:01:09] <Loetmichel> that had its whipping rpm at 1000rom
[22:01:09] <MarkusBec> LeelooMinai: 10000mm/min if you had 10mm pitch
[22:01:12] <Loetmichel> rpm
[22:01:19] <MarkusBec> with 5mm 5000mm/mon
[22:01:24] <Loetmichel> shorter shafts will mean higher rpm
[22:01:35] <ssi> but there's even more factors than just the whipping rpm
[22:01:36] <LeelooMinai> I mean, I just like machines that move fast and are precise - I think everyone does
[22:02:01] <ssi> there'll be a limit where you don't have enough torque to accelerate the mass of the axis
[22:02:08] <ssi> that's probably the one you'll hit first
[22:02:15] <MarkusBec> my cnc ist calculated for 10.000mm/min with a 16mm ballscrew and 10mm pitch
[22:02:29] <LeelooMinai> It that 10mm?
[22:02:31] <ssi> 10,000mm/min is pretty dang fast
[22:02:34] <LeelooMinai> Or 10k:)
[22:02:35] <ssi> for a mill
[22:02:43] <MarkusBec> 10k
[22:02:48] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: he is german like me
[22:03:15] <Loetmichel> we use , for decimals and . for 1000s
[22:03:21] <LeelooMinai> Well, I was trying 100mm/s and had some problems - something was stalling, but no idea yet what was the reason - driver, stepper or something lese
[22:03:24] <ssi> Loetmichel: just gotta be difficult :)
[22:03:26] <DaViruz> ten kilomillimeters
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[22:03:42] <ssi> LeelooMinai: even 100mm/s is pretty fast
[22:04:09] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but when it worked it was pretty impressive and I would like to be able to do those speeds
[22:04:36] <Loetmichel> ssi: vid of a co-workers CNC... at F15000: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYgyqjHCBLg
[22:04:47] <LeelooMinai> I guess I will need to do more investigation at some time
[22:04:49] <Loetmichel> its a bit scary ;-)
[22:05:16] <ssi> Loetmichel: my plasma table will do 15,000mm/min happily
[22:05:22] <ssi> but that's different class of machine
[22:05:55] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, I don't like that min usage - it's difficult to imagine it in comparison to /s
[22:06:12] <ssi> I measure my stuff in ipm or ips
[22:06:13] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: g0 on that machine is 300mm/s ;-)
[22:06:31] <LeelooMinai> Yes, that's imaginable, and pretty fast
[22:06:39] <Loetmichel> and it even did 500mm/s in test drive
[22:06:58] <Loetmichel> but not without occasional step loss, so i dialed it down
[22:07:07] <ssi> the g0 speed on my plasma table is 20ips = 120ipm = 30,480mm/min
[22:07:20] <LeelooMinai> I just don't like those hobby machines that move like they were embarking on a long jurney to the end of the table
[22:07:31] <ssi> LeelooMinai: your machine will be fast enough, don't fret over it
[22:07:44] <LeelooMinai> And sound like someone is grinding coffee
[22:07:53] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: my home machine does 35mm/s
[22:07:59] <DaViruz> mine is exactly like that :(
[22:08:04] <DaViruz> i have a fast one too though
[22:08:14] <Loetmichel> thats ok because it is only 200mm by 110mm by 110mm travel
[22:08:40] <MarkusBec> oh a baby video
[22:08:42] <MarkusBec> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgOD4uny5wg
[22:08:50] <ssi> Loetmichel: here, this machine is the second machine I built, and it has similar screws, motors, and drivers to yours
[22:08:54] <Loetmichel> but the macshine i did for my ex boss did 70mm/s and that was pretty darn needed because of 1500mm by 1020mm by 160mm travel ;-)
[22:08:55] <ssi> LeelooMinai: er sorry that was meant for you
[22:08:57] <ssi> LeelooMinai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiwqBze1y-0
[22:09:21] <Loetmichel> MarkusBec: and you are in the vid ;-)
[22:09:52] <DaViruz> cnc turning is so soothing to watch
[22:09:56] <ssi> DaViruz: :)
[22:09:58] <LeelooMinai> ssi: That some cnc lathe, right?
[22:10:07] <ssi> LeelooMinai: yes, it's a grizzly g0602 that I converted
[22:11:06] <Loetmichel> ssi: bad boy!
[22:11:13] <ssi> Loetmichel: what did I do now?
[22:11:23] <Loetmichel> now i will have to get my lathe up to CNC ;-)
[22:11:51] <ssi> Loetmichel: oh well if we're keeping up with the jones's, this is the new standard
[22:11:54] <ssi> Loetmichel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT6WoCzcD_0
[22:13:33] <Loetmichel> keeping up with the jones?
[22:13:41] <Loetmichel> (dont know that expression)
[22:13:44] <ssi> never mind the culture gap ;)
[22:13:54] <ssi> means 'trying to outdo your neighbors'
[22:13:58] <Loetmichel> ah
[22:14:28] <Loetmichel> no, i meant: you have made me mouth watering to convert my little lathe to CNC
[22:14:35] <ssi> get it done :D
[22:14:43] <ssi> I need to get the hardinge fixed
[22:14:46] <ssi> I'd like to sell the little lathe
[22:14:47] <Loetmichel> to much projects right now
[22:14:52] <ssi> yeah I know the feeling
[22:14:56] <Loetmichel> first i have to finish the reprap
[22:14:58] <DaViruz> i don't really have a use/need for a cnc lathe
[22:15:01] <ssi> I ordered some parts to start building a pick 'n place
[22:15:12] <Loetmichel> then i will fit the new 3phse to the lathe
[22:15:15] <DaViruz> i mainly do oddball one offs
[22:15:23] <ssi> DaViruz: I really like cnc lathe work
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[22:15:26] <Loetmichel> and THEN i will look into retrofitting it with steppers
[22:15:38] <ssi> it's a weird animal, but it's fun
[22:15:42] <DaViruz> ssi: me too, i just don't need it :)
[22:16:13] <Loetmichel> DaViruz: thats not about "need one" its about "want to have one!"
[22:16:35] <DaViruz> obviously it's on that list
[22:16:38] <DaViruz> :)
[22:17:11] <ssi> I don't NEED any of this crap
[22:17:20] <ssi> I don't make money with it very often
[22:17:26] <ssi> certainly not as much money as I spend on it :P
[22:17:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11462 <- thats my lathe
[22:17:31] <Loetmichel> "to be"
[22:17:36] <DaViruz> need is a troublesome word
[22:17:46] <Loetmichel> becauswe i bought it a couple years ago with burned motor
[22:17:47] <ssi> Loetmichel: it's so cute! :D
[22:17:49] <DaViruz> i need my hobbies, it's that makes life worth living
[22:18:11] <ssi> DaViruz: agreed
[22:18:12] <Loetmichel> and just got the new motor delivered a few months ago ;-)
[22:18:36] <Loetmichel> ssi: the one i use is even cuter:
[22:18:38] <ssi> Loetmichel: is it 10x22 or smaller?
[22:18:44] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14058
[22:18:55] <ssi> it's hard to get a sense of scale... looks like the same castings as my 10x22
[22:19:14] <ssi> Loetmichel: yea that's thatn little 7" guy there isn't it
[22:19:18] <ssi> they're adorable
[22:19:23] <ssi> can't imagine working on one tho :)
[22:19:34] <DaViruz> there goes the eartly bed time
[22:19:38] <DaViruz> ..once again
[22:19:45] <DaViruz> early*
[22:19:52] <DaViruz> hopefully it will still be earthly
[22:19:53] <ssi> first machine I ever bought actually was my 12x36 clausing lathe
[22:20:02] <ssi> then I got my bridgie, then started building cnc stuff
[22:20:59] <ssi> now I have three lathes, two mills, two bandsaws, surface grinder, plasma table, two 3d printers, two desktop mill/engravers, a tig welder, and a partridge in a peach tree
[22:21:11] <Loetmichel> the bigger one is a "optimum D400"
[22:21:15] <Loetmichel> D480
[22:21:38] <Loetmichel> meaning 480mm between centers
[22:22:07] <ssi> Loetmichel: what's the swing?
[22:22:18] <Loetmichel> above bed?
[22:22:21] <ssi> ya
[22:22:24] <Loetmichel> one moment
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[22:22:46] <DaViruz> is that more than one inch?
[22:22:52] <ssi> bigger than a breadbox
[22:23:52] <PCW> smaller than infinity
[22:24:25] <Loetmichel> 105mm
[22:24:28] <Loetmichel> above bed
[22:24:38] <ssi> wow, that small?
[22:24:51] <ssi> so it's like a 9x18 lathe I guess
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[22:25:28] <Loetmichel> "rotating diameter above bed: 203mm"
[22:25:40] <ssi> yea I thinko'd for a sec
[22:25:45] <ssi> 200mm swing isn't bad
[22:25:52] <ssi> was thinking 100mm swing, which'd be small... smaller than your little guy :)
[22:26:17] <Loetmichel> 105mm is the height of the centers
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[22:28:25] <Loetmichel> the red one is a C0
[22:28:34] <ssi> http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/harrier-has-stuck-nose-gear-lands-jet-on-a-stool-pilo-1596517824/+laceydonohue
[22:28:35] <Loetmichel> the "little guy"
[22:28:59] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=520&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[22:29:07] <Loetmichel> the ruler is 50cm long ;-)
[22:29:13] <JT-Shop> 150 pieces of wood siding 8" x 16' is heavy to move
[22:29:26] <ssi> JT-Shop: I bet!
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[22:34:51] <ssi> JT-Shop: I'd like to start trying to switch over to the thcad tonight
[22:38:14] <JT-Shop> cool
[22:38:32] <ssi> had a successful cut last night
[22:38:34] <JT-Shop> yea I just picked up the siding for the shop and garage LP wood
[22:38:37] <JT-Shop> nice
[22:38:38] <ssi> bought new slat material today
[22:38:42] <ssi> I need to clean out the bed
[22:38:47] <ssi> and then build my water sump :)
[22:38:56] <ssi> so much to do
[22:39:20] <JT-Shop> me too, way too many projects
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[23:02:15] <ssi> I think I may have killed my good fluke dmm :(
[23:03:28] <jdh> I did that once. turned out it was just a moderately expenesive oddball fuse
[23:03:52] <ssi> oh I know, I've been through those fuses a couple times
[23:03:55] <ssi> and yes they're expensive
[23:04:00] <ssi> but I don't think that's what this is :/
[23:04:08] <ssi> I left it outside when I got attacked by wasps
[23:04:12] <ssi> and it rained like ten drops on it
[23:04:25] <ssi> now I get the LEADS error even when the leads are in the correct place
[23:04:30] <ssi> and both fuses measure good
[23:04:39] -!- Einar1 has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[23:04:46] <jdh> have you tried rebooting windows?
[23:04:57] <ssi> I did take it apart and shake my tools threateningly at it
[23:05:04] <ssi> interestingly if I remove BOTH current fuses, it quits bitching
[23:05:07] <jdh> that usually works
[23:05:12] <ssi> but I imagine that means I won't have any current measurement anymore
[23:05:38] <jdh> yeah... I 'guessed' it was under whatever limit the small side is good for.
[23:05:42] <ssi> well yeah, if I want to measure current I can put the fuses back in
[23:05:44] <ssi> and that works
[23:05:50] <jdh> whack
[23:05:50] <ssi> but something's dorked up with the lead sensor
[23:05:59] <ssi> it think there's a lead in the current side when there's not I believe
[23:06:00] <jdh> mine's the yellow one.
[23:06:10] <jdh> (never can remember which yellow one)
[23:06:15] <ssi> they're all yellow :P
[23:06:18] <ssi> mines a 189
[23:06:22] <jdh> nah, I have a beige one also
[23:07:17] <jdh> mine appears to be a 189 also, or pretty much identical
[23:08:08] <ssi> maybe if I take some alcohol on a qtip and clean out inside the sockets
[23:09:22] <jdh> ever used DeoxIT(tm) ?
[23:09:50] <ssi> yeah
[23:10:01] <jdh> I thought I had a cable problem so I bought a new $355 cable. It had the same problem
[23:10:03] -!- robbiet480 has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[23:10:30] <jdh> absurdly expensive can of DeoxIT seems to have fixed it.
[23:10:51] -!- patrickarlt has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
[23:11:31] <ssi> good thinking
[23:11:41] <ssi> I don't have deoxit on hand but I have a can of motor cleaner within arms reach
[23:11:45] <ssi> and a little shot of that cleared it right up
[23:12:39] <jdh> one should probably not run 10mV signal wires through a pluggable connector for underwater use.
[23:12:55] <ssi> ugh it came back
[23:14:49] <ssi> I hope this doesn't become a persistent problem
[23:15:41] <jdh> buy a new one!
[23:15:47] <ssi> http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-289-True-RMS-Logging-Multimeter/dp/B0012B51HI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1403824511&sr=8-2&keywords=fluke+189
[23:15:50] <ssi> :'(
[23:16:21] <jdh> pricey.
[23:16:26] <jdh> I didn't pay for mine
[23:17:00] <DaViruz> my 189 got stolen out of my car :(
[23:17:04] <jdh> Stores up to 15,000 recorded events
[23:17:08] <DaViruz> together with an agilent dmm
[23:17:16] <jdh> that's what I've been looking for in a handheld dvm
[23:17:28] <ssi> 189 logs, but I never use the logging
[23:17:41] <ssi> I want a fancypants new color LCD scope
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[23:17:55] <jdh> chinese?
[23:18:05] <ssi> nah
[23:18:07] <ssi> something like this
[23:18:07] <ssi> http://www.amazon.com/Tektronix-TDS2024C-Portable-Oscilloscope-Bandwidth/dp/B00A4LKIOS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1403824678&sr=8-1&keywords=4+channel+oscilloscope+tektronix
[23:18:15] <DaViruz> i have a scopemeter 97, it gets you by most of the time, but it's pretty damn old and crappy
[23:19:06] <LeelooMinai> ssi: You mean DSO - what are the requirements?
[23:19:38] <ssi> LeelooMinai: newer than what I have now, more portable, and I'd love to have FFT
[23:19:48] <ssi> and preferably not chinese :)
[23:19:50] <LeelooMinai> And what do you have now?
[23:19:57] <ssi> tek tds420 and tds320
[23:19:59] <ssi> and some older junk
[23:20:16] <jdh> I had a massive crt tek. It was an event to get it out to use it.
[23:20:24] <ssi> all of mine are phosphor scopes
[23:20:28] <ssi> I'd love to have an lcd
[23:20:35] <DaViruz> i'd like serial decoding, troubleshooting serial links seems to be what i mostly use my scopes for
[23:20:44] <jdh> I got a cheap chinese lcd. It's always there and small
[23:20:45] <LeelooMinai> ssi: You should look at Rigols - they have excellent price/performance
[23:20:48] <ssi> DaViruz: yeah that would be nice too, especially if it can do SPI, I2C, etc
[23:20:59] <jdh> you can get a little usb logic thing for that
[23:21:02] <jdh> saelig? or wtf
[23:21:15] <ssi> jdh: I have a bus pirate, but I've never managed to figure out how to use the damn thing
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[23:21:33] <ssi> would be nice to be able to do it in a scope, so you can see wtf you're trying to decode while you're decoding it
[23:21:36] <jdh> that's because you satisfy your incessant need for stimulation rather than finishing things
[23:21:39] <DaViruz> i'll get the logic when they add the signal generator they've promised for 5 years
[23:21:47] <ssi> I have an ancient logic analyzer too, but it's crappy
[23:21:48] <ssi> jdh: hey now
[23:21:57] <LeelooMinai> I recommend not insisting on a scope that can do logic analysis - I would instead just use separate LA - they are pretty cheap. For spi and such, I bought Saleae clones from Cina for $8 (I am not kidding)
[23:22:25] <jdh> Leelooooo: uses the saleiwtf software?
[23:22:25] <LeelooMinai> In other words - the extra the scope company will charge for LA is not worth the money
[23:22:29] <ssi> I wish my LA could do serial stuff
[23:22:36] <ssi> it'll do hex decoding but that's it
[23:22:49] <archivist> ssi what model?
[23:22:52] <LeelooMinai> jdh: Yes, it works with Saleae solftware - it's unable to determine this is a clone
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[23:23:13] <jdh> I have a huge HP data analyzer at work. ALso not worht the hassle of getting out
[23:23:16] <ssi> archivist: hp 165xx something or other
[23:23:18] <ssi> I'd have to look it up
[23:23:34] <ssi> LeelooMinai: have a link?
[23:24:16] <archivist> ssi I have an HP 16500a mainframe with scope cards in it
[23:24:27] <ssi> archivist: lemme go look at the model num, sec
[23:24:49] <archivist> becomes an 8 chan scope http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=16500a
[23:25:20] <jdh> nifty
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[23:25:42] <ssi> archivist: 1651B
[23:26:02] <LeelooMinai> ssi: This is Saleae 8-channel clone (original is $150 or so): http://www.aliexpress.com/item/1PCS-USB-Saleae-24M-8CH-Saleae-Logic-Analyze/1566208532.html
[23:26:24] <DaViruz> thats pretty damn cheap
[23:26:32] <ssi> LeelooMinai: nice... I may order one for giggles
[23:26:58] <jdh> https://www.saleae.com/counterfeit
[23:27:00] <ssi> by the time it gets here I'll have forgotten about it
[23:27:05] <archivist> ssi I got a dead ish 1651 (tube hard to read and fell off the bench cracked case)
[23:27:15] <DaViruz> imo the saleae logic is too crappy for $150, but for $9 it's another story..
[23:27:37] <ssi> archivist: I have used it for stuff, but either it's not remarkably capable or I'm not adept at using it
[23:27:52] <LeelooMinai> It is very nice - can do 24Msps if you dedicate usb line to it and has unlimitted storage (since it just passes everything through USB) - it's enough for most serial, and has all the decoders for SPI, I2C, uart, etc.
[23:27:53] <ssi> archivist: it seems to have way too little sample memory, can't do much in the way of bus decoding, etc
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[23:28:28] <DaViruz> i played around in the software, it felt.. limited
[23:28:31] <DaViruz> and a bit flimsy
[23:28:52] <archivist> ssi some of the early ones were very short on memory, the first HP was 16 only words of 16 bits
[23:28:54] <LeelooMinai> ssi: If you want to go more crazy with money, there is this Saleae 16-channel clone. It can do 100Msps for one channel and 50 for two, etc. : http://www.aliexpress.com/item/FREE-SHIPPING-Saleae-logic16-USB-saleae16-100M-logic-analyzer-ARM-FPGA-decoder-tool/1728222060.html
[23:29:11] <LeelooMinai> I bought mine for cheaper than $40 though - maybe you would have to search a bit more
[23:29:16] <ssi> LeelooMinai: whoa, slow down there! TENS of dollars?! ;)
[23:29:30] <LeelooMinai> Yes, gets a biut extragavant there
[23:30:01] <LeelooMinai> But I have them both and they both work flawlesly with the software that is on the Saleae site
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[23:30:59] <LeelooMinai> That's why I recommended not to look for LA functions on oscilloscopes - not worth the money.
[23:31:39] <LeelooMinai> Unless one needs some high sampling for USB high speed maybe, but probably still not worth it
[23:31:53] <LeelooMinai> Also, having a separate LA, you free your scope channels
[23:32:11] <LeelooMinai> And it's more convenient to have software on the PC
[23:32:24] <DaViruz> when trouble shooting noise on digital communication a logic analyzer doesn't really cut it though
[23:32:29] <ssi> so long as the software isn't windows software, I agree
[23:32:36] <ssi> the salae looks interesting for that reason alone
[23:32:48] <LeelooMinai> Yes, but that is usually less time consuming than looking at the actual data
[23:33:22] <LeelooMinai> I use it on win 8 - no problems there
[23:33:29] <ssi> I don't do windows period
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[23:34:06] <LeelooMinai> ssi: I use whatever tools are best for what I need.
[23:34:14] <ssi> so do I
[23:34:17] <ssi> and windows is never that :)
[23:34:26] <LeelooMinai> I run Linux too, just not for my main desktop machine
[23:34:28] <ssi> sorry there's one and only one exception
[23:34:31] <ssi> solidworks
[23:35:12] <ssi> point being, I'm not buying a $150 LA gizmo or even a $9 LA gizmo if I have to monkey with windows software to make it work
[23:35:22] <ssi> I'd rather use my 30 year old HP brick
[23:35:26] <LeelooMinai> Many nice cad and eda tools run only on WIndows. Besides, I like WIndows 8 - and I am not exacly "average" user that just checks email and uses the browser
[23:35:38] <jdh> you aren't?
[23:35:45] <ssi> I'm happy that you're satisfied with it, but it won't sway my opinion :P
[23:35:58] <jdh> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA2C512S0593
[23:36:07] <LeelooMinai> jdh: No, I would say no:)
[23:36:19] <ssi> jdh: from newegg, nice :)
[23:36:51] <jdh> through newegg
[23:36:56] <ssi> well yeah
[23:37:02] <ssi> gettin all semantic on me
[23:37:23] <LeelooMinai> jdh: Unless you think this is a normal PC usage:) https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/11141858674/
[23:38:03] <ssi> what, playing video games and browsing ikea? :D
[23:38:09] <ssi> oh that's imdb
[23:38:10] <ssi> nm
[23:38:11] <ssi> :)
[23:38:30] <LeelooMinai> I do a lot of programming, run CADs, design PCBs, etc.
[23:38:38] <ssi> I do all of the above
[23:38:52] <jdh> I look at email and web browsers
[23:38:59] <ssi> jdh: and troll irc
[23:39:16] <jdh> and that
[23:39:23] <LeelooMinai> Yes, I am just saying that I have zero problems with doing that on Win 8
[23:39:34] <jdh> I saw win8 once
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[23:40:17] <LeelooMinai> Many nice design software has no good Linux equivalents
[23:40:24] <ssi> jdh: "oh my god it's full of squares"
[23:41:18] <LeelooMinai> Yes, well, people have many misconceptions about it - do you see any squares on my desktps there? No - I don't use metro at all, just normal desktop mode on multiple monitors.
[23:41:36] <ssi> LeelooMinai: it's ok, I'll still be your friend even if you run windows
[23:42:13] <LeelooMinai> Well, I run Windows, I run Linux - as I said, I am not tied to anything - I will just chooe whatever I c0onsider best for the task:)
[23:42:14] <Tom_itx> LeelooMinai what do you use for PCB design?
[23:42:21] <Tom_itx> altium.. pads.. >
[23:42:22] <Tom_itx> ?
[23:42:32] <LeelooMinai> Tom_itx: I used DipTrace for quite a while, but now pirated Altium
[23:42:40] <ssi> I use eagle on osx
[23:42:50] <jdh> is that lead-filled aluminum?
[23:42:51] <Tom_itx> i use an honest ver of eagle
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[23:42:59] <ssi> mine's honest as well
[23:43:07] <ssi> I wish I had the pro license, I really would like the extra board space
[23:43:25] <Tom_itx> that's why i keep using my old version
[23:43:30] <Tom_itx> haven't upgraded it
[23:43:31] <ssi> how old?
[23:43:32] <LeelooMinai> Mine is honeslty pirated, because they don't have hobby version at all (Altium)
[23:43:37] <Tom_itx> 4.16 iirc
[23:43:59] <ssi> what are the limits on your license?
[23:44:09] <ssi> I'm on 6 I believe
[23:44:11] * Tom_itx looks past the moon
[23:44:18] <ssi> hah
[23:44:25] <ssi> yeah I have the 6 layer 100x160mm license
[23:44:26] <Tom_itx> 16 or so layers etc
[23:44:27] <LeelooMinai> DipTrace has free versions that are limited in terms of pins used instead of the area
[23:44:44] <Tom_itx> that's just above the student ver iirc
[23:44:57] <ssi> well they only have three versions in terms of limits
[23:45:04] <Tom_itx> i don't really like how they've commercialized the newer versions
[23:45:06] <LeelooMinai> But if doing fpga designs, that may be not that good - otherwise it's better than Eagle imho - far better usability for sure
[23:45:17] <ssi> 2 layer 100x80 1 sheet, 6 layer 100x160 99 sheet, and 16 layer 4mx4m 99sheet
[23:45:20] <LeelooMinai> Also, the payed version is not that expensive.
[23:45:42] <Tom_itx> LeelooMinai, on altium??
[23:45:45] <Tom_itx> not.
[23:45:51] <LeelooMinai> No, I meant DipTrace
[23:45:52] <ssi> eagle's not the best I've used, but havig a legit license means I have consistency
[23:46:06] <ssi> I know it's gonna work every time I pick it up, and they have an osx version
[23:46:14] <LeelooMinai> altium is just beyond hobbyist so the only option is not use it or pirate really
[23:46:16] <ssi> so I don't have to dick with pirated windows and pirated pcb cad
[23:46:22] <ssi> and hope I can make it all work
[23:46:38] <Tom_itx> and i've added quite a few parts to my lib so i wouldn't wanna switch now anyway
[23:46:43] <ssi> I've gotten pretty fast with eagle, especially with making footprints and symbols... that's always the huge learning curve
[23:46:46] <ssi> Tom_itx: yea exactly
[23:47:02] <ssi> I just wish I could get past the 100x160 limit
[23:47:07] <ssi> cause 6 layers is mostly plenty for me
[23:47:14] <ssi> I could see myself doing an 8 layer, but not often
[23:47:25] <Tom_itx> if you're doing smt you should be able to make it fit
[23:47:30] <LeelooMinai> It's not, if you use DipTrace - it has very straightforward footprint and symbol creation - you can learn it just after reading a turorial in 90% probably.
[23:47:31] <ssi> I mostly only do smt
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[23:47:34] <Tom_itx> heck.. look what they're craming into phones
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[23:48:06] <Tom_itx> same here
[23:48:16] <Tom_itx> haven't done that much in a while though
[23:48:27] <ssi> LeelooMinai: diptrace might be worth trying, cause at least they don't have their heads in the sand about platform
[23:48:34] <ssi> LeelooMinai: but it's nearly as expensive as eagle for the same limits
[23:49:03] <Tom_itx> well he can only see from one eye... he's got a patch over the other one
[23:49:14] <LeelooMinai> Who?
[23:49:17] <Tom_itx> U
[23:49:38] <LeelooMinai> Tom_itx: I am not even "he"
[23:49:50] <ssi> lul
[23:49:52] <LeelooMinai> Let me see the prices
[23:49:58] <ssi> it's $895 for unlimited
[23:50:42] <Tom_itx> altium and pads are 4 figures i'm pretty sure
[23:50:46] <LeelooMinai> They have hobby version that is 500 pin limit, 2 kayers, for free.
[23:50:48] <ssi> yeah altium is $$$$$
[23:51:18] <Tom_itx> but i paid 4 figures for my cad cam once too
[23:51:31] <Tom_itx> it's old now but it still works for my hobby stuff
[23:51:41] <LeelooMinai> Not everyone is Mochael Jackson rich:)
[23:51:46] <Tom_itx> recovered the cost in a year
[23:51:53] <Tom_itx> so that's hard to beat
[23:51:57] <ssi> Tom_itx: that's fine if you're making money
[23:52:06] <ssi> I can't afford to spend big bucks on cadcam cause I don't make money from it
[23:52:09] <Tom_itx> that was the only reason i invested in it
[23:52:13] <LeelooMinai> I just do project for myself - never sell anything
[23:52:15] <Tom_itx> maybe you should
[23:52:23] <ssi> I paid for eagle license because I was designing boards for someone else for money
[23:52:55] <LeelooMinai> So I do not worry much about pirating, though I try to choose free software over payed if that's possible
[23:53:08] <Tom_itx> mostly all i ever did was small avr boards
[23:53:11] <LeelooMinai> But sometimes, it's just too painful
[23:53:14] <ssi> I don't have any moral objection to piracy for things like that
[23:53:26] <ssi> piracy has just gotten to be too big a pain in the ass
[23:53:27] <ssi> for me
[23:53:41] <ssi> it was worht a little money to have an eagle license to not have to screw with pirating something
[23:53:57] <Tom_itx> send the gerbers and nobody would know anyway
[23:54:26] <LeelooMinai> Just check them first for some comments:)
[23:54:49] <DaViruz> i buy what i can afford and pirate the rest. no loss for them since i couödn't afford it even if i wanted to
[23:55:04] <DaViruz> (think fancy schmancy $10k+ cad packages)
[23:55:13] <ssi> DaViruz: ie solidworks? :)
[23:55:27] <DaViruz> yeah
[23:55:35] <DaViruz> or proE, catia, etc
[23:55:36] <LeelooMinai> Also, one thing about Altium is they don't even care about "small" guys/hobbyist - they could make some light version, or even free one with limited features and no support, but no
[23:55:40] <ssi> yeah... like I said earlier, solidworks is really the only reason I keep windows around anymore
[23:55:44] <DaViruz> though i've migrated back to 2d cad
[23:55:45] <ssi> I haven't tried catia, but i'd like to
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[23:56:17] <Tom_itx> i used to have a demo windows catia ver
[23:56:24] <ssi> LeelooMinai: see that's how I feel about companies that only make windows software
[23:56:24] <Tom_itx> not sure where it went
[23:56:26] <DaViruz> i very rarely do something that warrants 3d cad really
[23:56:41] <Tom_itx> we did
[23:56:49] <Tom_itx> alot of aircraft parts
[23:56:53] <ssi> DaViruz: I prefer to do stuff in 3d, especially solidworks.
[23:56:53] <LeelooMinai> ssi: That's a lof of Windows software that is nice and free - most of mine is like that
[23:56:59] <LeelooMinai> There's*
[23:57:05] * JT-Shop uses Solidworks as well
[23:57:07] <ssi> DaViruz: I'm pretty fast with solidworks, which is nice
[23:57:14] <ssi> LeelooMinai: you're missing my point entirely :)
[23:57:34] <LeelooMinai> ssi: Ok, so what was it? :)
[23:57:34] <DaViruz> i enjoy solidworks, but i enjoy 2d cad as well.. :)
[23:58:04] <ssi> LeelooMinai: a company who refuses to provide versions for platforms other than windows is as irritating to me as a company who refuses to provide free or light versions to you
[23:58:13] <DaViruz> i'm not very comfortable with 3d cam, so it's just easier to draw in 2d cad since i'm using 2d cam
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[23:58:37] <ssi> DaViruz: I don't cam at all
[23:58:43] <ssi> DaViruz: other than sheetcam
[23:58:51] <LeelooMinai> ssi: Well... you know, not a lot of people on Linux desktops by comparison
[23:59:08] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I'm not on a linux desktop either; I gave that up when I became an adult :P
[23:59:25] <LeelooMinai> You do cad in terminal window? :)
[23:59:26] <Jymmm> ssi: tomorrow?
[23:59:36] <ssi> Jymmm: three days ago
[23:59:40] <Jymmm> ah
[23:59:45] <Jymmm> HBD
[23:59:45] <ssi> LeelooMinai: sometimes!
[23:59:49] <ssi> Jymmm: thx :)
[23:59:59] <DaViruz> i was cleaniing out some crap today