#linuxcnc | Logs for 2014-06-12

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[00:15:41] <Jymmm> XXCoder: What?!
[00:16:17] <XXCoder> eink is basically monochromic montior lol
[00:17:21] <Cylly> XXCoder: not correct
[00:17:35] <XXCoder> Cylly: well you missed "basically"
[00:17:39] <XXCoder> lol
[00:17:43] <Cylly> there ARE full color e-ink displays
[00:17:53] <Cylly> just not so much because they are expensive
[00:18:08] <XXCoder> I know, but those is hard to get
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[00:18:17] <XXCoder> I was talking but NST specifally
[00:18:21] <XXCoder> which is very hackable
[00:18:26] <Cylly> ok
[00:18:32] <Cylly> dont know that
[00:18:41] <Cylly> so you may be right then ;-)
[00:18:42] <XXCoder> man
[00:18:52] <XXCoder> some people really is major ammosexual
[00:18:59] <Cylly> ?
[00:19:03] <XXCoder> other irc server channel one guys constantly talking about guns
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[00:19:13] <Cylly> hrhr
[00:19:13] <XXCoder> nonstop. for hours
[00:19:27] <Cylly> can do that, too
[00:19:41] <Cylly> especially about americans ant their guns.
[00:19:42] <Cylly> ;-)
[00:19:45] <XXCoder> lol
[00:19:57] <XXCoder> I am american but not ammosexual
[00:19:58] <ChuangTzu> whats the channel?
[00:20:05] <XXCoder> not on freenode
[00:20:34] <ChuangTzu> i mean what's it about
[00:20:39] <XXCoder> oh ksp game
[00:20:48] <XXCoder> which makes it worse
[00:20:57] <Cylly> (had the opertunity to shoota .45 colt peacemaker replica... with hi-powered armor-piercing bullets. The sold it in america as "grizzy hunting sidearm)
[00:21:11] <XXCoder> I bet ya this
[00:21:30] <XXCoder> evenually usa will become ammosexual tour center because only place can shoot some guns :P
[00:21:46] <Cylly> ... bullets that have a V0 of 1040m/s ... grizzly hunting... sure that! ;-)
[00:21:59] <XXCoder> lol
[00:22:20] <ChuangTzu> grizzly hunting is illegal
[00:22:30] <SpeedEvil> Protecting yourself from one is not.
[00:22:38] <SpeedEvil> 'It's coming right for us!'
[00:22:42] <ChuangTzu> sure
[00:22:43] <XXCoder> gripolars might be different
[00:22:55] <XXCoder> bigger than grizzy but meat eater
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[00:23:18] * SpeedEvil ponders Kizzly bears.
[00:23:19] <XXCoder> weather change is making those hyrids more common
[00:24:16] <ChuangTzu> usually bear defense pistols are a more powerful caliber like .454 casull or something
[00:24:30] <ChuangTzu> any pistol is just a backup though
[00:24:55] <ChuangTzu> except for chuck norris
[00:24:56] <XXCoder> bomb gripolars from space
[00:24:59] <XXCoder> only way to be sure
[00:25:18] <ChuangTzu> yeah
[00:25:20] <ChuangTzu> nuke alaska
[00:25:23] <XXCoder> Norris is backup for everything. including nuclear bombs
[00:25:31] <XXCoder> and computer backups too
[00:25:45] <XXCoder> he can just round kick pc and it will restore lost data
[00:25:45] <Cylly> ChuangTzu: i dont see any more powerful bullet than a .45 bullet with mach3
[00:25:52] <Cylly> ... beide a .50 bmg ;-)
[00:25:55] <Cylly> beside
[00:27:01] <SpeedEvil> 20mm
[00:27:06] <ChuangTzu> .500 s&w
[00:27:09] <ChuangTzu> ,454 casull
[00:27:39] <ChuangTzu> .460 s&w
[00:28:02] <SpeedEvil> I question the sanity of a 20mm handgun.
[00:28:18] <SpeedEvil> You'd likely at least need it to be usable in either hand if you wanted two shots.
[00:28:29] <ChuangTzu> ive seen a .50bmg handgun and questioned the sanity of that
[00:28:50] <ChuangTzu> maybe you could make it a 20kg handgun
[00:29:04] <Cylly> ChuangTzu: i think you dont get the point. going bear hunting with (only) a HANDgun is silly in the first place. so what is this weapon made for in the first place?
[00:29:12] <ChuangTzu> bear defense
[00:29:17] <ChuangTzu> like i said
[00:29:31] <ChuangTzu> backup
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[00:29:43] <Cylly> SpeedEvil: the .45 colt was near that 20mm.
[00:29:51] <ChuangTzu> no way
[00:30:06] <ChuangTzu> .45 colt is an ancient low pressure cartridge
[00:30:14] <Cylly> my first shot i sat on the ground and the gun was a few meter behind me... rubbing my ancles
[00:30:29] <Cylly> ChuangTzu: you did read "mach 3"
[00:30:34] <ChuangTzu> ~700J of energy
[00:30:37] <Cylly> ... and "replica" ?
[00:30:40] <ChuangTzu> then it wasn't a .45colt
[00:30:48] <ChuangTzu> but some other caliber
[00:30:57] <Cylly> it LOOKED like a colt peacemaker
[00:31:09] <Cylly> oh, it WAS .45 AE
[00:31:44] <Cylly> not exactly AE but very similar. and VERY high powered
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[00:32:58] <Cylly> but enogh of that. here is CNC, not weapons.
[00:33:10] <XXCoder> cnc up weapons :P
[00:33:16] <zeeshan> why does my degree say cum
[00:33:17] <zeeshan> on it
[00:33:18] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/meOINLn.jpg
[00:33:25] <zeeshan> gayyyy
[00:33:57] <XXCoder> summa cum luaude
[00:34:00] <XXCoder> damn
[00:34:05] <XXCoder> good grades eh
[00:34:14] <zeeshan> gay
[00:34:18] <zeeshan> it says cum
[00:34:27] <XXCoder> yeah old language
[00:34:29] <zeeshan> my college diploma had a red seal
[00:34:31] <Cylly> zeeshan" With greates honor"
[00:34:33] <Cylly> ;-)
[00:34:34] <XXCoder> you got damn good honors. congats
[00:34:35] <zeeshan> indicating honor
[00:34:46] <XXCoder> best I got was cum laude
[00:34:50] <XXCoder> in my CS degree
[00:35:03] <zeeshan> http://i.imgur.com/ev7ftvt.jpg
[00:35:11] <XXCoder> your gpa must be above 3.8
[00:35:11] <zeeshan> notice the red seal
[00:35:23] <zeeshan> its a lot better than having the 'cum laude' on it
[00:35:29] <zeeshan> its embossed honors
[00:35:30] <zeeshan> its less gay
[00:35:31] <Cylly> hmm
[00:35:34] <XXCoder> just white it out lol
[00:35:35] <Cylly> bachelor
[00:35:39] <XXCoder> less honored but.. lol
[00:35:49] <zeeshan> hahaha
[00:35:53] <zeeshan> at leaast its not gay
[00:36:00] <zeeshan> white out it is
[00:36:11] <zeeshan> i think its illegal though haha
[00:36:23] <Cylly> ... since they cancelled rthe "dipl.Ing." in germany ad got to bachelor/master my desire to go and get a dregree has instantly vanished
[00:36:46] <zeeshan> Cylly: i started with a diploma
[00:37:01] <zeeshan> then got this b.eng degree and now doing masters of applied science
[00:37:11] <zeeshan> you can't go from a college diploma to masters
[00:37:17] <zeeshan> its a long path =/
[00:37:33] <Cylly> zeeshan: the Dipl.Ing. in germany WAS the master!
[00:37:44] <zeeshan> oh
[00:38:19] <Cylly> the education has suffered in my opinion by splitting it in two and call it b.sc and m.sc
[00:38:32] <zeeshan> thats normal up here
[00:38:47] <Cylly> it wasnt unti latest years in germany
[00:38:49] <zeeshan> masters courses are pretty advanced compared to the bachelors one i did
[00:38:51] <Cylly> until
[00:39:30] <zeeshan> so after dipl.ing
[00:39:36] <zeeshan> you can directly do your phd?
[00:39:40] <Cylly> in germany they (jokingly) call the b.sc "vordiplom"
[00:39:46] <zeeshan> that doesnt make sense, cause you need to have publications
[00:39:48] <zeeshan> before you can do phd
[00:40:00] <zeeshan> this is what you do in masters, research and write papers
[00:40:04] <Cylly> (something like "freshmans diploma" of sorts)
[00:40:11] <zeeshan> and get them peer reviewed and then published
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[00:41:01] <Cylly> zeeshan: in times of the Dipl.Ing yes. now: i dont know
[00:41:09] <zeeshan> wow thats cool
[00:41:39] <Cylly> my Co-worker at the company is a Dr.Ing. i can ask him when i see him again (he is only part-time)
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[00:42:57] <Cylly> IIRC a few publications were part of the Dipl.Ing. already
[00:43:52] <Cylly> bu me only having basic highschool i never was interested much in the higher grades of university education
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[00:44:42] <Cylly> only in the latest years i came to the conclusion that a "dipl.Ing" on the wall would be nice to have.
[00:44:53] <Cylly> but no its gone
[00:44:56] <Cylly> now
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[00:51:16] <zeeshan> man
[00:51:19] <zeeshan> where is my damn power supply
[00:51:33] <zeeshan> Loetmichel: do ask your friend
[00:51:36] <zeeshan> er co-worker i mean
[00:51:58] <Loetmichel> will do if i remember it ;-)
[00:53:03] <zeeshan> hehe
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[00:55:33] <Loetmichel> btw: a "dr.Ing" is a PhD if i am not mistaken
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[01:02:22] <mshaver> cradek: I wanted to thank you for the pointer to the mesaflash utility! It worked fine, and there was even a bitfile specifically for the Leadshine MX3660 stepper driver system that I am using for this job. I have a little more work to do on the charge pump signal, but I have axis movement, so I am real pleased. Thanks Again! I hope to see you, Jeff, Seb, and everyone in Houston in October if that pans out. If there's anything I can do
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[01:08:17] <Jymmm> mshaver: Last thing that came thru: " If there's anything I can do"
[01:10:21] <mshaver> "if there's anything I can do for you, you know where to find me :)" Chris is always really helpful on here and I just wanted him to know he's appreciated!
[01:10:58] <Jymmm> Awwww, a BROmance ;)
[01:11:59] <mshaver> I suppose I am getting a little mushy, but good tech support is very attractive ;)
[01:12:19] <Jymmm> mshaver: (Now you just got to get him to come to the dark side.... steak and beer!)
[01:14:53] <mshaver> I thing he's OK with beer...
[01:15:32] <Jymmm> mshaver: Well, then you're half way there =)
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[03:25:04] <XXCoder> dammit!
[03:25:12] <XXCoder> coupler do not fit the screws
[03:28:53] <XXCoder> the shaft is one cm diameter
[03:28:57] <XXCoder> not 12 mm
[03:29:06] <XXCoder> oh well. checking if can return or exchange
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[03:30:48] <Jymmm> what hapened, didn't measure the screw?
[03:31:01] <XXCoder> I did but didn't realize end was smaller
[03:31:06] <XXCoder> stupidass eh lol
[03:31:16] <Jymmm> Ah, eh it happens
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[06:12:07] <archivist> CaptHindsight, yes, that frame was made in the space in the rear and had to be extracted inverted
[06:12:20] <archivist> Einar1, am here now
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[06:50:34] <Deejay> moin
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[08:07:58] <Loetmichel> *grummel* das corpus delicti: *knack hatter gemacht* -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14919
[08:10:56] <Loetmichel> oh sorry
[08:10:57] <Loetmichel> [09:46] <Loetmichel> *FUUUUU* just broke a shielding glass pane... and we have no spares. delivery time new glass panes: 8 weeks. delivery deadline monitors: next friday... *fu**fu**fu*** this day starts less than perfect:-(
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[09:43:10] <SpeedEvil> polycarbonate sheet?
[09:44:07] <archivist_herron> or a glass with cast in RF gauze
[09:46:57] <SpeedEvil> Chicken wire.
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[10:35:37] <Valen> archivist I'd be guessing its glass with a conductive coating
[10:35:46] <Valen> bust out some ITO or something
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[10:37:26] <SpeedEvil> There were a lot of ito coated glass TV fronts on eBay a while back
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[10:47:19] <Jymmm> I think it's those sheets that only have like a 10deg angle f view so you can't see what's on the display unless you are exactly in front of it.
[10:48:02] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Try craigslist ;)
[10:48:47] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: flea market? ikea? Ebay?
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[10:54:01] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: thats not ito
[10:54:32] <Loetmichel> its a very fine copper mesh (35µm copper foil laser etched to a 100 mil grid)
[10:55:12] <Loetmichel> laminated to an 1.1mm windlo glass
[10:55:22] <Loetmichel> window, not gorilla
[10:56:07] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: WalMart? DollarStore?
[10:56:26] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: and one sheet costs 230 eur
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[10:56:45] <Loetmichel> only aviable from 2 sources worldwide
[10:56:50] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Lots-o-Dollar Store?
[10:57:02] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[10:57:10] <Loetmichel> its an emi shield
[10:57:17] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: FedEx Next Day Service?
[10:57:47] <Loetmichel> doesent help when the manufactuirer only cuts them to size on order and says he neds 8 weeks lead time
[10:57:50] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Dude, duct tape and aluminum window screen
[10:58:31] <Loetmichel> i already found a demo monitor thet i can cannibalize
[10:58:49] <Loetmichel> but now ther can nbe no further error ;-)
[10:59:34] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: I'd suggest find an additional vendor. That's a little too exclusive.
[10:59:56] <Loetmichel> [12:56] <Loetmichel> only aviable from 2 sources worldwide
[11:00:40] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: 2014-06-12.03:59:34 Jymmm: Loetmichel: I'd suggest find an additional vendor. That's a little too exclusive.
[11:01:21] <Jymmm> I dont care if you have them custom made to your specs.
[11:01:55] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: You guys do enough of that work that you can become your own vendor, then 3 globally =)
[11:02:25] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: AND use gorilla glass =)
[11:02:55] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Or, optically clear acrylic (neat stuff)
[11:04:35] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: are these covers strictly for EMI/RFI shielding, or to prevent others from viewing hte display fro the side too?
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[11:23:06] <SpeedEvil> And yeah - copper + webcam may work too
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[11:23:25] <Loetmichel> only RF shielding
[11:23:41] <SpeedEvil> Also - 35um copper laser etched to a 100 mil grid - you can do that with photoetching
[11:24:13] <Loetmichel> looks like this when finished (just normally not broken) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12460
[11:25:41] <SpeedEvil> Err - why?
[11:25:45] <Loetmichel> and there are only two manufacturers that make these mesh laminates
[11:26:10] <SpeedEvil> Why do you need a monitor covered with that?
[11:26:18] <Loetmichel> one with goog optical properties and one a bit wiorse. emi filtering is identical
[11:26:46] <Loetmichel> spe: my company sells Trempest-proofed IT tech to military and alike
[11:26:51] <SpeedEvil> Ah
[11:26:53] <Loetmichel> no van eck pheaking
[11:27:00] <Loetmichel> -r
[11:27:03] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Seriously they sell those for $40 at the office supply stores, with grounding wire too if you like
[11:27:20] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: filtering about 60++ db?
[11:27:23] <Loetmichel> i doubt it ;-)
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[11:29:45] <Loetmichel> and carbonate sheets simply have not good enough optical properties
[11:30:28] <Loetmichel> anti glare and stuff)
[11:30:33] <Jymmm> Common one's no. But I'm talking specifically optically clear specialty ones.
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[11:31:18] * Tom_itx grabs one at walmart
[11:31:36] <Loetmichel> we had some 19" filters made from 2mm polycarbonate
[11:31:42] <Loetmichel> and the mesh
[11:31:45] <archivist_herron> I see some have no clue about the RF requirment
[11:31:47] <Loetmichel> bad as fuck
[11:32:00] <Loetmichel> archivist: seems that way
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[11:32:43] <archivist_herron> sat here bored in a glass companies office
[11:38:02] <SpeedEvil> Do glass sheets ITO coated on both sides, and grounded on both sides not work adequately?
[11:38:15] <SpeedEvil> Also - I can't imagine that that is useful if you've not put the monitor in a box
[11:40:06] <archivist_herron> if you watched the chan he makes internal shielding too
[11:40:50] <SpeedEvil> Due to unfortunate technical limitations, I don't always see all previous text.
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[11:46:22] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: the monitor IS in a "box"
[11:46:38] <Loetmichel> there is about 20ß meters 50mm wide copper tape with conducting glue on the back
[11:46:40] <SpeedEvil> ah
[11:46:43] <Loetmichel> inside the frame
[11:46:51] <Loetmichel> -ß
[11:47:22] <Loetmichel> and a shitload of ferrites plus a PS-filter
[11:49:52] <Loetmichel> it is more or less one piece of copper from the Display glass all the way around the back, just the DVI plug and the IEC plug looking out of it
[11:50:03] <Loetmichel> and THEN the plastic casing will be mounted
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[13:18:21] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: I still say just get some fine mesh brass screen and be done with it =)
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[13:55:28] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: brss (and copper) wire mesh is no good
[13:55:31] <Loetmichel> testet that
[13:55:48] <Loetmichel> EVERY crossing has to have good contract or it wont shield enough
[13:55:54] <Loetmichel> -r
[13:56:30] <Loetmichel> lets just say: we testet much stuff and the thin glass with laszermesh was the only suitable solution
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[15:34:21] <CaptHindsight> Loetmichel: "copper mesh (35µm copper foil laser etched to a 100 mil grid)" 35um wide traces on a 2.54mm grid or? what thickness trace?
[15:41:06] <CaptHindsight> probably next to 0 since it handles next to 0 current
[15:41:53] <CaptHindsight> that's easy to print, how many thousand do you need?
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[15:42:35] <archivist> now laminate it in glass just the rught size to order
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[16:00:00] <CaptHindsight> http://ibin.co/1PgQ4SnvRiPa this stage will do and it even runs Linuxcnc, plus the native pitch on the nozzles might be 2.54mm
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[16:10:36] <archivist> not big enough and can you deposit pure copper
[16:11:03] <CaptHindsight> been doing that for years
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[16:13:43] <CaptHindsight> printing the semiconductors as well
[16:14:38] <CaptHindsight> there's a zillion patents that overlap on just about everything, so China gets the square again
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[16:24:00] <CaptHindsight> high volume possibly patent free method would be to print on PET film with a flexo press, UV blast, then laminate
[16:24:18] <skunkworks> we have flexo presses....
[16:25:01] <CaptHindsight> what's your minimum line width? single color
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[16:25:28] <CaptHindsight> skunkworks: what's the width of your web?
[16:26:12] <skunkworks> I think the widest we can print is 13.5
[16:26:14] <skunkworks> inches
[16:26:46] <skunkworks> 4 inches
[16:27:13] <skunkworks> is the narrowsest
[16:27:27] <skunkworks> (these are narrow presses)
[16:27:38] <CaptHindsight> do you guys print packaging?
[16:27:49] <skunkworks> no - overlays and decals.
[16:28:06] <CaptHindsight> close enough :)
[16:33:08] <ssi> hm
[16:33:43] <ssi> pcw_home: for the purposes of raw gpio, are the 5i25 pins floating, or are they pulled up or down?
[16:34:02] <ssi> they probably have configurable pullup/dn in hal don't they
[16:34:03] <ssi> I foget
[16:34:43] <pcw_home> all of our FPGA card have pullups so you should assume active low
[16:34:48] <ssi> perfect
[16:35:04] <ssi> thanks :D
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[16:47:40] <LeelooMinai> I am configuring a PC for lunuxcnc. Any idea what should I set the parallel port in bios to? I have 7 options including variants of spp, ecp, epp, etc.
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[16:50:19] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[16:50:47] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: ECP/Epp if available
[16:51:01] <LeelooMinai> ok, thx
[16:51:32] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: what is the mashine for
[16:51:43] <IchGuckLive> mill lathe 3D printing ...
[16:52:35] <LeelooMinai> I built something I call "CNC platform" - will use it probably for many different things - milling, cutting with laser, may try 3d, I do not know
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[16:53:29] <IchGuckLive> ok so standard xyz
[16:53:43] <archivist> I am reminded of the saying, Jack of all trades, master of none
[16:53:45] <LeelooMinai> Yes
[16:54:09] <LeelooMinai> archivist: You are a pesimist I see:)
[16:54:21] <archivist> realist
[16:54:48] <archivist> I have used the wrong machine for a job
[16:54:54] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: what is your plant mashine size
[16:54:56] <LeelooMinai> Right... well, I designed it to handle milling. If it can do that, it will do others fine too imho
[16:55:13] <LeelooMinai> Plant?
[16:55:23] <IchGuckLive> constructed
[16:55:51] <LeelooMinai> It's aoubt 30cm range on all axis
[16:55:57] <IchGuckLive> planned
[16:56:16] <archivist> I have milled in a lathe and turned on a mill
[16:56:19] <LeelooMinai> I thing 40x40x30 maybe
[16:56:46] <IchGuckLive> ok i might give you some hints as a laser 3D printer do not need 0.01mm precise 0.254 is standard
[16:56:52] <IchGuckLive> mill doo need 0.01
[16:57:06] <LeelooMinai> It's already built - almost completely. I am putting together the PC to control it, then will do wiring, and will start the alignment, etc.
[16:57:10] <IchGuckLive> so speed verses precission on parport
[16:57:30] <IchGuckLive> ok where are you in the world
[16:57:35] <LeelooMinai> Canada
[16:57:52] <IchGuckLive> nice as you give a cm messure
[16:58:00] <LeelooMinai> I was born in Poland
[16:58:14] <IchGuckLive> the stepper drivers are ?
[16:58:59] <LeelooMinai> I bought electronics and rails, ballscrews, etc. from aliexpress, they are simple wantai drivers and parallel port board
[16:59:02] <IchGuckLive> im in germany
[16:59:34] <LeelooMinai> Here is how it looked few days ago: https://www.flickr.com/photos/100017731@N03/14362017434/
[16:59:40] <IchGuckLive> oh wantai has not the fast opto on the BOB
[17:00:09] <LeelooMinai> Yes, I am not worrying about electronics now - I just want to get something going. In the future I will see if I can use motion boards, etc.
[17:00:27] <IchGuckLive> ok
[17:01:22] <IchGuckLive> you need to hack a parportrest time manuell at 5000 ,and also some hal change for that board
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[17:02:52] <LeelooMinai> Hmm, ok. At this point I am approaching the point when I install lunuxcnc only.
[17:03:15] <LeelooMinai> I will probably have to tinker a bit as I installed Ubunto 14.04
[17:04:57] <LeelooMinai> IchGuckLive: thx - do you have the same board?
[17:05:03] <archivist> best to start from the live CD
[17:05:40] <archivist> off the linuxcnc site not direct from ubuntu
[17:05:41] <LeelooMinai> archivist: I want to try 14.04 first - even if I will have to dig around. It will be supported for a long time.
[17:05:44] <CaptHindsight> 14.04 isn't working quite yet with linuxcnc, 12.04 is
[17:06:29] <LeelooMinai> I read a bit and some people seemed to get it working.
[17:06:47] <CaptHindsight> 3.4.55 kerne; works with 14.04 but I haven't tested all the features yet
[17:06:48] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: i did a config on that
[17:07:37] <LeelooMinai> 12.04 and 10.04 are kind of old by now - not even sure if 10.04 is still suported?
[17:08:03] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: but all the good stuf runs on 10.04
[17:08:22] <CaptHindsight> LeelooMinai: yes, but you need Linuxcnc to play well with it and a real time kernel
[17:08:24] <IchGuckLive> and it is well good packed
[17:09:14] <IchGuckLive> install livecd uptade to buildbot to 2.5.4 and work forever
[17:09:45] <CaptHindsight> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LinuxCNC_On_Ubuntu_Precise also seems solid
[17:10:48] <LeelooMinai> I kind of wish I did not have to use parallel port, but proper motion board, but I don't think they are supported?
[17:10:56] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: gantry homing in full motion
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[17:13:15] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: why did you chose linuxcnc
[17:13:40] <LeelooMinai> There's not much choice of free options.
[17:13:45] <cradek> the parallel port is only one of many ways to interface hardware with linuxcnc
[17:14:25] <LeelooMinai> Are there some non-expensive non-parallel options?
[17:15:05] <LeelooMinai> I am a hobbyist - not exacly a rich person too.
[17:15:13] <cradek> maybe you should say more about what you are wanting to build
[17:15:42] <IchGuckLive> cradek: a standard xyz
[17:15:43] <cradek> oh I see some in the scrollback
[17:15:46] <LeelooMinai> I already built it and described here.
[17:15:58] <cradek> what drivers?
[17:16:18] <IchGuckLive> where non fast at this point
[17:16:25] <cradek> wantai are step/dir stepper drives?
[17:16:28] <LeelooMinai> I figured out that linuxcnc will be the cheapest option to try things, and they after having some experience I will be able to judge better what next.
[17:16:29] <IchGuckLive> they got about 50000 DIR
[17:17:22] <cradek> what step rate do you need? the cheapest options to drive simple step/dir drives are first, parallel port, and then probably 5i25
[17:17:36] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: Hey there, how are you doing ?
[17:17:52] <LeelooMinai> It's for hobby projects - speed is not really important I think.
[17:17:55] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: im doing a comp to home a gantry now
[17:18:09] <h_maximilian> want want want want :)
[17:18:17] <h_maximilian> how are you doing it ?
[17:18:29] <LeelooMinai> And 5i25 is what?
[17:18:37] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: interfeariung the xcommands like THC
[17:18:38] <cradek> wow, there's a lot of aluminum in that little machine.
[17:18:54] <LeelooMinai> Well, I read that rigidity is important
[17:19:16] <CaptHindsight> the X and 14.04 video drivers don't play well in Virtualbox, even with the VboxGuestAdditions_4.3.10, it runs really slow
[17:19:21] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: have you got an email address that I could send you a msg too ?
[17:19:25] <LeelooMinai> So I tried to make it rigid in case I will want to mill some alu
[17:19:37] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: why
[17:19:45] <archivist> a sensible amount of ally
[17:19:57] <CaptHindsight> I have to try building linuxcnc again for 14.04
[17:19:58] <LeelooMinai> There are also 3 steel angles
[17:20:21] <h_maximilian> So that I could send you my draft .comp so that you can give me comments on that :)
[17:20:33] <LeelooMinai> But I did not want to use too much steel because it's difficult to work with - I just used a drill press to make it
[17:20:37] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: what is your maximum twist of the gantry
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[17:21:14] <h_maximilian> twist that is still possible to home the machine with
[17:21:26] <h_maximilian> or twist that will make it unable to home ?
[17:21:40] <h_maximilian> I could send you a foto of the machine if you are interested
[17:21:57] <IchGuckLive> no only <2mm >
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[17:22:15] <IchGuckLive> my plasmas sall at 2mm bent
[17:22:25] <IchGuckLive> stall
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[17:23:08] <IchGuckLive> the gantry rack pinion on high gearing is realy tigt at about 400N tension force
[17:23:30] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: I was able to watch your video link on youtube that you did give me yesterday
[17:23:54] <LeelooMinai> I made the rail beams from hollow alu square beams and puit sand inside and closed them with solid alu blocks - not sure if it will help with vibrations - I did not really have much experience with building things like that - it's my first cnc.
[17:24:32] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: this mashine can bent xy UV at 45cm
[17:24:55] <IchGuckLive> then the hotwire will bust on no more move aloed
[17:25:07] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: I just tried manually to twist the gantry, by hand I can maybe twist it about ~~20mm
[17:25:24] <IchGuckLive> oh then we are done
[17:25:34] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: I would guess that I would still be able to home it with about 10mm twist on the gantry
[17:25:36] <IchGuckLive> as it cuts off at 5mm
[17:26:46] <IchGuckLive> i put a safty float in that starts at Xahoming hit to messure movement to XB homing so you can see if your mashine did step fails on moving
[17:27:12] <h_maximilian> does sb remember the pastebin like service where I could put a foto, i.e. a bin blob ?
[17:30:43] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: Could you pastebin me your .comp design ? So that I could have a look ?
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[17:31:30] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: http://pastebin.com/n0nUn0vX <= that is my idea
[17:31:53] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: But I have not tried it yet
[17:35:02] amnesic is now known as amnesic_away
[17:35:10] <IchGuckLive> h_maximilian: i see is the mashine able t move beond homeswitch as your axis move on and then back to the saved point
[17:35:25] <IchGuckLive> that may be able to you but not to many others
[17:36:44] <h_maximilian> IchGuckLive: Yes, I can move about 25mm beyond the home sw in neg direction, then I will hit the estop switch
[17:37:44] <IchGuckLive> ok so yours is special id like to stop the movement only the feedback will be run so no error accurs
[17:38:12] <IchGuckLive> the problem then is you need one more homeswitch
[17:38:20] <IchGuckLive> as the Xa is blocked
[17:38:32] <h_maximilian> can I stop the motion while homing without raising an error ?
[17:40:35] <IchGuckLive> thats the goal to be met
[17:42:31] <h_maximilian> yes :) Then I could actually do it the way you proposed yesterday
[17:42:56] <h_maximilian> i.e start homing/moving both axes
[17:43:51] <h_maximilian> then stop the axis once I hit the home sw
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[17:44:11] <h_maximilian> and continue movement only when both axes are on their home switch
[17:44:36] <h_maximilian> but that would only work if there is no error raised when the movement is stopped
[17:45:47] <IchGuckLive> the main problem is to interfear the homing itself as it mormaly does a latch move
[17:46:23] <h_maximilian> in ./src/emc/motion/homing.c is do_homing_sequence still used ?
[17:46:34] <IchGuckLive> HOME_SYNCHRONIS is the fun destrojer
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[17:46:57] <h_maximilian> I can only find it once in src/emc/motion/control.c
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[17:47:38] <IchGuckLive> let me think on a standard universal comp on that issue
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[17:47:55] <FreezeS> hi guys, anyone has experience with MasterCam ?
[17:48:00] <h_maximilian> check_stuff ( "after handle_jogwheels()" );
[17:48:00] <h_maximilian> do_homing_sequence();
[17:48:00] <h_maximilian> check_stuff ( "after do_homing_sequence()" );
[17:48:00] <h_maximilian> do_homing();
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[17:48:10] <h_maximilian> what is that check_stuff ?
[17:48:19] <ssi> h_maximilian: figure this stuff out cause I'm right behind you :)
[17:48:24] <ssi> I just got my limit switch wiring sorted out
[17:48:37] <ssi> using P2 on the 5i23 worked perfectly; now I have independent inputs for everything
[17:49:06] <h_maximilian> ssi: (watching my six.....)
[17:49:10] <ssi> :)
[17:49:11] <IchGuckLive> ssi: i got 11 on my plasmas its a wear wirering at 2,5m table
[17:49:19] * jthornton loves it when a plan comes together
[17:49:31] <IchGuckLive> 5i23 O.O 5i25
[17:49:41] <ssi> er, 5i25 sry
[17:49:53] <ssi> I have so many mesa cards at this point is hard to keep track :D
[17:50:07] <IchGuckLive> ssi you can not have enoph GPIO ever
[17:50:14] <LeelooMinai> Are you talking about those fpga io cards someone mentioned earlier?
[17:50:19] * ssi is singlehandedly keeping pcw in delicious delicious icecream
[17:50:28] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: yes
[17:50:29] <ssi> LeelooMinai: yeah... go order one immediately :)
[17:50:42] <LeelooMinai> Are they expensive and do they improve over parallel port much?
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[17:50:54] <ssi> LeelooMinai: looks like you're doing a stepper machine; get a 5i25/7i76 kit
[17:51:02] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: this card will push you to heven insted of antai#
[17:51:07] <IchGuckLive> wantai
[17:51:07] <ssi> LeelooMinai: about $200, and it improves over paralell port by ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE
[17:51:32] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: but you dont need it
[17:51:48] <LeelooMinai> Ok, but this would be just the replacement for that simple opto card I have there, right - I would just connect the wantai stepper drivers to it?
[17:51:49] <IchGuckLive> your wantai will work for a good time
[17:52:00] <ssi> LeelooMinai: it runs all the stepgen inside an fpga, which means you don't have to have super low latency for good results; you'll get something like six axes of stepgens plus 48GPIO
[17:52:14] <ssi> plus smart serial, field power, all sorts of goodies
[17:52:21] <ssi> it really is the best bang for the buck on the planet
[17:52:34] <ssi> analog spindle control too
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[17:52:42] <IchGuckLive> ssi got the missing IO
[17:52:52] <LeelooMinai> Yes, I can imagine - I bought a motherboard with parallel port just in case, for now, but I am not fan of this solution (I know a bit about electronics and I was a programmer in the past)
[17:52:57] <Tecan> http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140611093451.htm
[17:53:35] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the biggest distinction is that with parport, you're limited to how fast your realtime system can generate pulses smoothly. That's gonna be the limiting factor on how fast you can run your motors
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[17:53:49] <ssi> LeelooMinai: with mesa gear, those concerns go away, because you have dedicated hardware running your stepgens
[17:53:59] <ssi> LeelooMinai: also, if you ever move to servos, it's a much more painless transition
[17:54:24] <LeelooMinai> Right, doing this on external hardware seems much more sensible - I guess that's what they call "motion control" boards, right?
[17:54:30] <ssi> yep
[17:54:51] <ssi> http://www.mesanet.com/fpgacardinfo.html
[17:54:56] <ssi> scroll down a little to the "plug and go kits"
[17:54:56] <LeelooMinai> Ok, but, the price of those boards is? :)
[17:55:02] <ssi> about $200 for a kit
[17:55:24] <LeelooMinai> Heh, that's not as scary as I thought
[17:55:30] <ssi> like I said, best value out there
[17:55:33] <IchGuckLive> LeelooMinai: as you said futher upgrade stay till it it moves
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[17:55:55] <LeelooMinai> Right, that's my plan - baby steps (and I don't mean the steppers)
[17:56:09] <kfoltman> baby steppers, hmm
[17:56:18] <ssi> LeelooMinai: I started out basically the same as you... I designed and built some machines from scratch
[17:56:20] <kfoltman> that's like, sub-nema17?
[17:56:28] <IchGuckLive> kfoltman: mini N17
[17:56:40] <ssi> LeelooMinai: at this point I've built and converted like fifteen machines, and these days I exclusively use mesa hardware for interfacing.
[17:56:52] <IchGuckLive> real tiny about 25x25 mm
[17:57:29] <LeelooMinai> ssi: I think once you build the first one it gets easier, because you can build next ones using it:) I am really tired of making all those holes with a floor drill press.
[17:57:36] <ssi> LeelooMinai: here check this out, I don't have a pic from when it was completely finished, but this is a mill conversion I did for money last year
[17:57:39] <ssi> LeelooMinai: https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/459136_10100131793367542_829866394_o.jpg
[17:58:17] <ssi> that's a 7i77 daughterboard
[17:58:32] <ssi> whole thing connects to the PC via a DB25 cable; mesa 5i25 is a pci card that lives in the PC
[17:58:33] <LeelooMinai> Nice - are those connectors the "avionics" style ones?
[17:58:42] <ssi> yeah circular metal connectors
[17:59:06] <LeelooMinai> I used those for my steppers, but simple 4 pin ones. What is that metal case though?
[17:59:16] <LeelooMinai> Looks like some sort of electric panel.
[17:59:22] <ssi> it's just a big nema box that the customer bought for me from grainger
[17:59:24] <IchGuckLive> im out BYe till tomorrow
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[17:59:30] <ssi> yea it's basically a subpanel box
[17:59:42] <LeelooMinai> Right, I thought of using something like that, but did not find cheap one yet.
[17:59:48] <ssi> they're not cheap
[17:59:49] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: could be "military" also
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[18:00:02] <Loetmichel> i regulary use a lot of these
[18:00:17] <ssi> Loetmichel: pretty much exclusively military actually... not many of them even in civilian aviation
[18:00:21] <ssi> they're too damned expensive :P
[18:00:40] <LeelooMinai> I buy stuff like that from aliexpress mostly
[18:00:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9012
[18:00:53] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13269&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[18:00:55] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[18:01:05] <ssi> Loetmichel: yeah the crimp ones are better IMO
[18:01:10] <LeelooMinai> Right, those connectors are not cheap normally
[18:01:33] <Loetmichel> about 120 eur the plug and 100 eur the socket for thet "DVI" one there
[18:01:35] <LeelooMinai> I saw some crazy one with hundreds of pins for few $k
[18:02:38] <Loetmichel> still a PITA to crimp on a cable
[18:02:43] <ssi> the wiring in that box is all MS22759 tefzel too
[18:02:44] <LeelooMinai> That 7xxx board - how is it better than the 5xxx one? MOre outputs or faster or both?
[18:02:45] <Loetmichel> but waterproof
[18:02:47] <ssi> and laced with milspec lacing :)
[18:03:28] <Loetmichel> ssi: it seems you are working in the military field also ;.-)
[18:03:40] <ssi> LeelooMinai: the 5i25/6i25 "superport" stuff is the newer stuff, it's easier to work with. It's a bit more purpose designed and suited for what you're doing
[18:04:00] <ssi> LeelooMinai: you can run the older stuff, and in some cases it might make more sense to, but its' more expensive and potentially harder to work with
[18:04:13] <ssi> LeelooMinai: for now, trust me, you want a plug 'n go kit, 7i76 (which is the stepper version)
[18:04:20] <ssi> Loetmichel: no, not exactly
[18:04:30] <ssi> Loetmichel: I'm a homebuilt airplane guy :)
[18:04:37] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[18:04:41] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... how would the slowness of parallel port manifest on the actual cnc - would it make the whole thing slower or also affect the accuracy?
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[18:04:55] <archivist> just slower
[18:05:12] <ssi> LeelooMinai: your max step speed will be slower, and if you try to run it faster than the latency of your machine allows, you'll get realtime errors
[18:05:17] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: it limits the speed you can drive the axis without step loss
[18:05:18] <archivist> accuracy is about your machine and skills
[18:05:44] <LeelooMinai> OK, I see
[18:05:44] <ssi> LeelooMinai: but also with just a parport, you are limited to 17 io, and most of those will get eaten up by stepgens
[18:06:08] <ssi> trust me, that's the battle I was just fighting on my plasma machine. Having ONE input for all limit switches is less than ideal :)
[18:06:29] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... I have 3 steppers and 6 limit switches - that's all
[18:06:30] <archivist> I go without those switches, not ideal
[18:07:04] <ssi> archivist: I haven't had switches on the plasma table for four years... just one switch for torch sensing
[18:07:15] <ssi> but I'm working on changing that, cause I really need to home and square the gantry
[18:07:21] * ssi eyes h_maximilian
[18:07:21] <LeelooMinai> I guess I could wire the switches so they just are seen as one that works for all limits - not sure if that will be nice though
[18:07:35] <ssi> LeelooMinai: yeah you can do that but it's sub optimal... also if you do it that way you can't home all axes at once
[18:08:00] <archivist> the homing has to be manual without switches, makes turning on a pain
[18:08:07] <LeelooMinai> How many ios are needed for one stepper?
[18:08:25] <archivist> two outs
[18:08:28] <ssi> at least two, but you may want more for things like drive enables
[18:08:33] <ssi> Loetmichel: https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/247629_10100172352152412_325887569_n.jpg
[18:08:50] <LeelooMinai> Does it even fly? :)
[18:08:58] <ssi> if you throw it fast enough!
[18:09:34] <archivist> add an elastic band and a prop
[18:09:55] <LeelooMinai> Seems like not quite ready to fly yet
[18:10:13] <ssi> have a little way to go
[18:10:27] <Loetmichel> nice
[18:10:47] <LeelooMinai> I must say that building a plane from scratch did not occur to me yet
[18:10:55] <ssi> evolution of DIY :)
[18:11:04] <Loetmichel> the only real "flying object" i ever piloted was a R22
[18:11:06] <ssi> actually i got into cnc because of airplanes, not the other way around
[18:11:22] <ssi> I built my plasma table because I didn't want to pay someone $50 to waterjet a panel for me
[18:11:32] <ssi> also read as "because I'm a moron"
[18:11:59] <ssi> hilarious part is, I ended up making a carbon fiber panel, which can't be plasma cut anyway
[18:12:04] <Loetmichel> ssi: ... and tat was some years ago...
[18:12:08] <ssi> yep
[18:12:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3542
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[18:12:34] <ssi> Loetmichel: sweet :) I've flown an R22 a couple times
[18:12:50] <Loetmichel> that WAS me... no i look a bit different ;-) -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14295
[18:13:00] <ssi> there's a guy at my airport that got an R66... it's like an R44, but turbine powered
[18:13:04] <Loetmichel> that thing is a piece of crap like no other
[18:13:16] <Loetmichel> s/is/was
[18:13:21] <LeelooMinai> Loetmichel: I think the hair has a bit different color
[18:13:52] <Loetmichel> rust lanes down every rivet (on an aluminium manifold? how did boss manage to achive THAT?)
[18:13:54] <LeelooMinai> Otherwise I don't see much diff:)
[18:14:11] <h_maximilian> ssi: hehehe
[18:15:05] <Loetmichel> engine check: *brombl* left ignition *Stutter, cough* right ignition *Stutter, cough* both ignitions *brobl* boss: "OK, ready for take off, that was the preflightcheck!"
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[18:15:26] <ssi> Loetmichel: you're clearly too picky :)
[18:15:34] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A92IoLSCQAAUOre.jpg
[18:15:34] <Loetmichel> LeelooMinai: talking about 25 years and about 50 kg ;-)
[18:15:38] <ssi> that's the best pic I can find of the panel :(
[18:16:30] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Just hit the head shops, they have fine brass mesh in varying degrees, just braze the ends =)
[18:16:52] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: as i said:no, thanks
[18:17:08] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: DO IT! DO IT NOW!
[18:17:17] <Loetmichel> we searced long enough for a satifying compromise in EMI shilding and optical properties
[18:17:44] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Just toss a giant static bag over the display, that work stoo
[18:17:49] <ssi> this one's only a ltitle better :/
[18:17:49] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp8v2v2IQAElKZ_.jpg:large
[18:17:52] <archivist> looks like the rubber band flight has been done http://www.lightsportaircraftpilot.com/rubberband_powered_ultralightaircraft/index.html
[18:18:11] <Loetmichel> and our customers pay about 6 keur for such a system, so they are entitled to "best the market has to offer"
[18:18:18] <ssi> archivist: hahahah
[18:18:51] <archivist> ssi I found another which seemed to twang called the Rubber Bandit
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[18:20:09] <ssi> here's my rubber band
[18:20:10] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOqo-DqCAAAuRbW.jpg:large
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[18:20:42] <archivist> beetle engine? /me dicks
[18:20:46] <archivist> ducks
[18:20:47] <ssi> heheh
[18:20:48] <Loetmichel> ssi: jet-cricri comes to mind ;.)
[18:21:01] <ssi> nah I sprung for the good shit
[18:21:12] <ssi> that's a IO-360-C1C, 200hp
[18:21:27] <Loetmichel> ah, nearly the same as in the r22 ;-)
[18:21:33] <ssi> no, not nearly
[18:21:40] <ssi> r22 is the 180hp parallel valve engine
[18:21:47] <ssi> the damn angle valve engines are STUPID expensive
[18:21:51] <ssi> almost twice as much for 20hp more
[18:22:06] <ssi> but you know what? nobody ever got in an airplane and said "I think this thing has too much power"
[18:22:37] <ssi> I have a brandy new hartzell blended airfoil constant speed prop for it too, which is also way too much money
[18:22:48] <ssi> I could have saved myself $20k by doing 180hp and fixed pitch prop
[18:22:52] <ssi> BUT
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[18:23:05] <ssi> as configured, it'll take off in 300', climb 3000fpm, and cruise at 190kt
[18:23:21] <ssi> and I want all of that. simultaniously :)
[18:23:55] <Loetmichel> ssi: i meant: nearly the same HP, also a 4 cyl 180°V...
[18:24:10] <ssi> yea I know what you mean...
[18:24:22] <ssi> they're similar in the way that a chevy 350 is not similar
[18:24:32] <Loetmichel> right
[18:24:41] <ssi> but folks who shell out the bucks for the angle valve engines are sensitive about the comparison :)
[18:24:56] <ssi> most people put 180hp IO360s on them... and that's adequate
[18:25:01] <Loetmichel> btw: did you hear that some austrianbs try to get a Smart car diesel certified for UL planes?
[18:25:03] <ssi> but I want 190kt, and power is power :)
[18:25:15] <ssi> haven't heard about it, but it's not surprising
[18:25:25] <ssi> I was actually contemplating whether you could put a VW common rail diesel in a small plane
[18:25:32] <ssi> but I ultimately decided it was a bad idea
[18:25:49] <Loetmichel> ... and enginge that fits into the cargo pants side pockets and has 60++ HP ;-)
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[18:26:29] <ssi> I have a diesel vw now, and it's an amazingly good engine
[18:26:44] <ssi> I did 812 miles round trip without stopping on 14 gallons two weeks ago
[18:27:17] <ssi> drove it cross country in may, 8000 miles total on about $600 in fuel
[18:27:50] <ssi> diesel airplane engines are a great idea, but there's a couple downsides
[18:27:57] <ssi> most of them are either too big and heavy or turn too fast
[18:28:24] <ssi> they need to be either designed for airplanes with proper thrust bearings, or they need a belt or gear reduction which adds weight, cost, complexity, failure points
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[18:29:03] <skunkworks_> and fuel jelling... ;)
[18:29:07] <Loetmichel> ah, the got it certified
[18:29:11] <ssi> nah just run Jet-A in it
[18:29:13] <Loetmichel> they
[18:29:43] <Loetmichel> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%26F_FK_9 <- sorry, only german
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[18:30:23] <ssi> I can suss out most of it :)
[18:30:31] <ssi> actually the unit conversions are harder than the german :)
[18:30:35] <Loetmichel> ssi: a smart diesel has 799ccm
[18:30:43] <ssi> 65km/h is what, about 30mph?
[18:30:47] <Loetmichel> there is no "low rpm" or "heavy"
[18:31:13] <ssi> you have any idea if it's direct drive?
[18:31:28] <Loetmichel> 40mph
[18:31:50] <Loetmichel> and that is stall speed
[18:31:54] <ssi> yeah
[18:32:33] <Loetmichel> cruise speed is 110mph
[18:32:59] <Loetmichel> and vmax is 140mph
[18:33:00] <ssi> sweet, you can race it with your R22 :)
[18:33:10] <Loetmichel> not mine
[18:33:28] <Loetmichel> was owned by my exexexex boss
[18:33:33] <ssi> hehe
[18:33:40] <Loetmichel> i have no pilots license
[18:33:46] <Loetmichel> to expensive over here
[18:33:55] <ssi> it's too expensive here too, I promise :P
[18:35:04] <SpeedEvil> The UK air regulations have loopholes.
[18:35:18] <Loetmichel> but i like the plan: take a modern mass produced engine and certify it for planes
[18:35:19] <SpeedEvil> It's only legal to fly R/C aircraft within 70m of you.
[18:35:22] <ssi> oh here's the stupid picture of the carbon
[18:35:24] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BOqqIEJCIAEGkdg.jpg
[18:35:37] <Loetmichel> ... instead of the decades old engine desing used normally ;-)
[18:35:40] <ssi> Loetmichel: I like that plan too, I'm just curious how they pulled it off
[18:35:48] <ssi> because auto engines just aren't designed with the same criteria in mind
[18:35:53] <ssi> and most auto conversions are perilously bad
[18:35:55] <SpeedEvil> However, you can attach 10 of them to cords, put on roller-skates, and use them to drag you into the sky on a parachute
[18:36:04] <SpeedEvil> With almost no regulation
[18:36:11] <ssi> SpeedEvil: wat
[18:36:16] <ssi> that sounds like a terrible idea :D
[18:36:26] <SpeedEvil> I diddn't say it wasn't. Just that it was legal.
[18:36:32] <Loetmichel> ssi: does it?
[18:36:46] <ssi> ...mostly?
[18:36:51] <ssi> I'd probably try it
[18:36:54] <Loetmichel> i would like to paraglide with a smart engine in the beack
[18:36:56] <Loetmichel> back
[18:36:57] <ssi> but it doesn't sound like GOOD idea :)
[18:37:10] <Loetmichel> at least its desinged by mercedes egineers
[18:37:45] <Loetmichel> probably MUCH more reliable than the typical lawnmowerengine ;)
[18:37:58] <SpeedEvil> Also, the definition of 'small ariel vehicle' (a R/C toy) is 'under 2.5kg dry weight at liftoff'. This implies that it's quite legal to take off with a 2.5kg quadcopter, which then winches up more engines and then eventually a pilot - and stays a 'small unmanned aircraft'
[18:38:59] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil:you've seen that? -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw
[18:39:01] <skunkworks_> wow - too much thought was put into that...
[18:39:06] <ssi> Loetmichel: the issue is not how "good" it was designed, the issue is what it was designed to do
[18:39:14] <SpeedEvil> Loetmichel: yes.
[18:39:22] <ssi> Loetmichel: think about the gyroscopic load of a prop on a crank flange... you ever seen the front bearing on a lycoming?
[18:39:26] <Loetmichel> ... some ppl have balls of steel ;-)
[18:40:03] <SpeedEvil> yeah - I wouldn't try that for a moment without blade shields in my direction
[18:40:18] <Loetmichel> ssi: think about an engine that puts out as much HP as a lyncoming but being a third its size and a quarter its weigt
[18:40:21] <SpeedEvil> That sheds a blade in your direction due to say - impacting the ground - you're dead
[18:40:34] <Loetmichel> so the vibrations will also be less
[18:40:44] <ssi> Loetmichel: yeah and then think about it snapping the end of the crank off in a 2G pull
[18:40:48] <ssi> http://docthrock.com/EngineTearDown_files/IMGP0410.JPG
[18:40:52] <ssi> that's the front main journal
[18:41:15] <Loetmichel> SpeedEvil: thats what i meant with "balls of steel"
[18:41:21] <SpeedEvil> ah
[18:41:26] <`Nerobro> ssi: I'm not convinced that a bearing like that is .. good..
[18:41:43] <ssi> `Nerobro: in what way?
[18:41:53] <`Nerobro> people have run american v8 engines with a prop strapped to the flywheel with no external bearing
[18:41:53] <SpeedEvil> Babbit bearings can be really quite awesome
[18:41:58] <ssi> remember, you're hanging a 2500lb airplane off that bearing
[18:42:10] <`Nerobro> I'm aware.
[18:42:11] <ssi> and then flopping it about gyroscopically at 6G or more
[18:42:25] <`Nerobro> they never take impact loads.
[18:42:33] <SpeedEvil> Birds
[18:42:37] <ssi> no, but gyroscopic loads can be pretty severe
[18:42:43] <`Nerobro> Still never impact.
[18:42:53] <`Nerobro> nothing tops running an axle bearing into a square curb.
[18:43:13] <CaptHindsight> SpeedEvil: what if the "small aerial vehicle" is assembled in space? do they specify mass or just weight at liftoff?
[18:43:13] <Loetmichel> tell me
[18:43:26] <`Nerobro> Mind, I have HUGE respect for aircraft engines.
[18:43:31] <Loetmichel> i just had to change the front right axle and bearings on my omega ;-)
[18:43:35] <archivist> beam engines have 30 -40 tons hanging on a pair of plain bearings, can last for hundred years
[18:43:36] <`Nerobro> Just their development ended in the late 1940's.
[18:43:42] <ssi> all I'm saying is, I'd be hesitant to take a tiny diesel engine designed for a smart car and expect its front main bearing to hold my ass up in the air under gyroscopic loads
[18:43:44] <`Nerobro> archivist, very low speed.
[18:43:45] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: undefined.
[18:44:04] <`Nerobro> ssi, people running corvairs and VW's often run without a additional prop bearing.
[18:44:10] <`Nerobro> But some do run a "5th bearing"
[18:44:10] <archivist> below the oil film speed yet the manage it
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[18:44:26] <SpeedEvil> CaptHindsight: the fun parts of the regs aren't what's undefined - but what's defined unambiguously as permitting things not expected.
[18:44:51] <`Nerobro> ssi, if I were to design a new airplane engine.. I'd be looking at a pair of roller bearings to handle prop loads.
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[18:45:07] <`Nerobro> either angular contact, or ball.. I don't care much. with just a little preload.
[18:45:08] <ssi> designing a new airplane engine is a very very different situation than repurposing an auto engine
[18:45:12] <CaptHindsight> what if the small aerial vehicle is assembled but an international team assembles it in international waters and then flies it in?
[18:45:14] <`Nerobro> Just like an axle bearing on a car.
[18:45:17] <ssi> they're not HARD problems to solve
[18:45:21] <CaptHindsight> but/by
[18:45:24] <ssi> they're just not solved in auto engines
[18:45:27] <ssi> because there's no need to
[18:45:34] <Loetmichel> ssi: on a fixed wing thats no problem at all, you can sail it down...
[18:45:43] <ssi> Loetmichel: not true!
[18:45:43] <`Nerobro> And, for the most part, we're still stuck with the 1940's solutions.
[18:45:50] <Loetmichel> i would have my doubts on a rotary wing ;-)
[18:45:57] <`Nerobro> that's why BSFC sucks on lycomings and continentals.
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[18:46:05] <ssi> Loetmichel: if you snap the crank flange off and lose your prop, there's a moderate chance you'll go out of limits aft cg and be uncontrollable
[18:46:22] <Loetmichel> may be
[18:46:33] <ssi> `Nerobro: no arguments there... I'd love to see some modern airplane designs; HOWEVER, it's not a remarkably easy thing to do, and it's not cost effective for the gains you'd see
[18:46:40] <`Nerobro> ssi, depends on the plane. With a constant speed prop, there's a fair chance. With a plan wood prop.. even if you do go aft CG, it won't be by much.
[18:46:40] <Loetmichel> so you have to get some luggage up front to compensate... FAST ;-)
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[18:47:18] <ssi> there are lots and lots and lots of anecdotes about homebuilders with auto conversions losing their aircraft and/or their lives
[18:47:27] <ssi> I'll stick to the 1940's solutions personally
[18:47:36] <`Nerobro> Yes, but it's due to issues other than the prop ;-)
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[18:47:44] <`Nerobro> Most people expect car levels of horsepower.
[18:47:46] <`Nerobro> Which you can't do
[18:48:00] <`Nerobro> because the heads end up eating valves.
[18:48:06] <`Nerobro> Or their PSRU blows up
[18:48:11] <ssi> they aren't prop issues because they run PSRUs
[18:48:16] <ssi> which alleviates the bearing concern
[18:48:18] <ssi> and the speed issues
[18:48:26] <ssi> but the PSRU adds other failure modes
[18:48:32] <Loetmichel> ssi: i am crazy enough to volunteer for the next test pilot of an Moller M200 if there were such a thing ;-)
[18:48:35] <`Nerobro> The corvair people.. well.. one person has had crank breaking issues.
[18:48:36] <ssi> electronic ignition and fuel delivery is awesome, but it introduces more failure modes
[18:48:38] <Loetmichel> i like that design
[18:48:46] <`Nerobro> but that's because of.. well.. inexperience, and driving the engine rahter hard.
[18:49:09] <`Nerobro> He wasn't checking the radiuses on the cranks well
[18:49:19] <ssi> I'm pretty well convinced that the people who think they can do auto conversions better than everyone has before them are idealistic fools :)
[18:49:51] <`Nerobro> You also almost never hear about the "good" auto engine conversions.
[18:50:09] <ssi> auto conversions are like guys with motorcycles
[18:50:14] <ssi> there are those who've crashed and those who will :)
[18:50:32] <ssi> haha maybe that's a bit harsh
[18:50:37] <`Nerobro> Yes, that's wildly harsh.
[18:50:56] <`Nerobro> Look up why auto conversions fail. :-)
[18:50:58] <`Nerobro> it's a short list.
[18:51:07] <`Nerobro> topped by "I can' design a cooling system"
[18:51:24] <`Nerobro> shortly followed by "I used a used engine that I didn't rebuild"
[18:51:35] <ssi> but you're making my point for me!
[18:51:39] <ssi> they don't cost less
[18:51:41] <`Nerobro> and "You mean I can't treat it like a car?"
[18:51:41] <ssi> they don't weigh less
[18:51:43] <skunkworks_> wait - I can design a cooling system!
[18:51:45] <ssi> they have far more failure modes
[18:51:57] <`Nerobro> you're painting with to broad of a brush.
[18:52:00] <ssi> they might can have better bsfc, but not aton
[18:52:09] <ssi> am I?
[18:52:15] <`Nerobro> Yes.
[18:52:24] <skunkworks_> do you drill all the bolt heads so you can wire them all?
[18:52:46] <ssi> what's out there that is equivalent to a 180hp lyc that costs less and weighs less and is more reliable?
[18:52:49] <`Nerobro> For example, VW and Corvair conversions have most, if not all, of the problems solved.
[18:53:09] <`Nerobro> I havne'et looked at the 180hp range. Just the 100 and 60hp.
[18:53:24] <ssi> yeah but that's just using a 1940s tech auto engine in place of a C65 or C90
[18:53:30] <ssi> not sure what you expect to gain there :P
[18:53:37] <archivist> do they replace the VW crank.. if not dont fly with it
[18:53:37] <`Nerobro> Corvair versus 0-200? The corvair is lighter, and makes more power.
[18:53:50] <`Nerobro> An is narrower.
[18:53:59] <`Nerobro> and has 6 cylinders so it shakes less.
[18:54:22] <`Nerobro> It's 1960's auto tech, versus 1940's. :-)
[18:54:23] <SpeedEvil> I'm reminded of the guy who took off in his new aero conversion, putting the throttle to the wall for the first time.
[18:54:27] <`Nerobro> it's still a big step
[18:54:29] <ssi> fine
[18:54:33] <ssi> that's not what I'm interested in at all
[18:54:40] <ssi> I want a 180-200hp replacement that has 20% or better bsfc
[18:54:42] <SpeedEvil> And his air intake tube collapsed choking off the engine and causing him to nose in
[18:54:49] <ssi> and is cheaper, lighter, and at least as reliable
[18:54:55] <ssi> and that doesn't exist
[18:55:00] <`Nerobro> SpeedEvil, there are a lot of people who shouldn't be building instalations like that.
[18:55:02] <ssi> at least not in terms of auto conversions
[18:55:17] <`Nerobro> ssi, there might be. Whittman loved his v8 oldsmobile..
[18:56:28] <`Nerobro> I don't know what sort of GPH he got.
[18:56:48] <`Nerobro> and the rocket 88 motor wasn't new tech. But it is newer than lycoming/continental.
[18:57:26] <`Nerobro> in the 300-350hp range, the modern smallblock starts to look really good.
[18:57:39] <ssi> no thanks
[18:57:50] <ssi> I've seen PLENTY of those fail
[18:57:51] <`Nerobro> That said, it's not a proven combination yet.
[18:58:00] <ssi> they don't like running 75% or better full time
[18:58:14] <`Nerobro> Well, you're missing the trick
[18:58:22] <`Nerobro> you need to run it at airplane engine rpms.
[18:58:29] <`Nerobro> which keeps the head head loading down to something reasonable.
[18:58:35] <ssi> it doesn't make airplane engine torque and hp at airplane engine rpms
[18:58:40] <`Nerobro> But they do!
[18:58:44] <ssi> you can't run an LS1 at 2700rpm and expect to get any kind of power out of it
[18:58:49] <ssi> certainly not 350hp
[18:59:01] <ssi> you have to PSRU them
[18:59:17] <`Nerobro> make that number 3200, and yes, they do. You end up losing some static thrust, but once you're moving...
[18:59:19] <ssi> not just for the speed, also for the aforementioned gyroscopic loading issues, as well as the pulsed impulse loads
[18:59:36] <ssi> listen I understand where you're coming from, because I've been that idealistic guy before
[18:59:40] <ssi> but engineering just says no
[19:00:12] <`Nerobro> we're talking less than half the engines rated horsepower. At about half it's rated rpm.
[19:00:23] <ssi> build it, fly it, put 2000 hours on it, and you'll be a hero in the homebuild community
[19:00:48] <`Nerobro> Well that's exactly why it's not been proven. It's a $10,000 job to do right.
[19:00:54] <ssi> hahaha
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[19:00:58] <ssi> now I know you don't know what you're talking about :D
[19:01:08] <ssi> it's a $100,000 job to do right
[19:01:23] <`Nerobro> I doubt that much.
[19:01:39] <ssi> it's $40k to buy an auto conversion KIT
[19:01:49] <ssi> that's where someone else already ate up the R&D costs
[19:01:56] <ssi> to do a one-off auto conversion?
[19:02:02] <ssi> it'll be somewhere between 60 and 100k to do it right
[19:02:10] <`Nerobro> Depends on the person doing it. I've seen it go both ways.
[19:02:17] <ssi> remember, we're talking about replacing a $40k lycoming here
[19:02:26] <ssi> if it were $10k to do it right, everyone would be doing it
[19:02:45] <`Nerobro> If you're talking 10-30k, people tend to jump at used certified engines.
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[19:02:53] <`Nerobro> because it's a known answer.
[19:02:58] <ssi> there's 8700 flying rvs out there... lots of auto conversions have been tried and most of them have failed
[19:03:04] <`Nerobro> most of them subarus.
[19:03:06] <`Nerobro> :-)
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[19:03:17] <ssi> lots of subarus, but plenty of 350s and LS1s
[19:03:21] <ssi> and rotaries
[19:03:30] <`Nerobro> I've not seen a 350 or ls1 in a RV
[19:03:42] <`Nerobro> But.. then again, the airplanes i'm interested in don't need 200hp
[19:03:44] <`Nerobro> :-)
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[19:04:08] <ssi> RV-10 guy in savannah did an LS1/PSRU plane
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[19:04:15] <ssi> and lost it a couple years ago
[19:04:26] <`Nerobro> There's a couple guys running v8's on CH750s
[19:04:35] <`Nerobro> One is using a PSRU, the other isn't.
[19:04:52] <`Nerobro> ssi, what broke?
[19:05:04] <ssi> thing is, airplanes that need 60-100hp aren't compelling to do auto conversions
[19:05:06] <`Nerobro> Keep in mind, I am very fond of air cooling on airplanes. :-)
[19:05:16] <ssi> cause those engines are already very very cheap to buy and operate
[19:05:23] <ssi> so I'm MUCH more interested in it for 180+
[19:05:43] <`Nerobro> ssi, when I can save 1+gph and 20-50lbs... I'm interested.
[19:05:43] <ssi> trying to find post about it now
[19:05:55] <ssi> yea I want to saze 5+ gph
[19:05:57] <ssi> save
[19:06:11] <ssi> $6/hr isn't worth my life
[19:06:47] <`Nerobro> I wonder what happened to the quiet flight people
[19:06:54] <`Nerobro> the ones who were stuffing the LS1 in a 172 frame
[19:07:07] <ssi> I'm interested in the purpose built diesels
[19:07:17] <ssi> there's the thielert and another that I can't recall the name of now
[19:07:18] <`Nerobro> the delta hawk bugs me for one reason.
[19:07:24] <`Nerobro> The block is a wear part.
[19:07:28] <ssi> the latter engine I saw at oshkosh two years ago, and it was compelling, but it was also $55k
[19:07:30] <`Nerobro> Same iwth the thielert
[19:07:57] <`Nerobro> with delta hawk, when you run up to TBO, you toss the block.
[19:08:28] <ssi> http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=78924
[19:08:56] <ssi> todd sweezey is the guy I was thinking of
[19:09:10] <`Nerobro> to be clear, i'm a DA-2/KR-2 kinda guy. :-)
[19:09:23] <ssi> do you have one?
[19:09:37] <`Nerobro> no. Have the plans, and i've bent some metal on a DA-2
[19:10:35] <ssi> inflight fire was the loss of that airplane
[19:10:43] <`Nerobro> yuck.
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[19:10:57] <`Nerobro> Almost ever v8 install I see is geared.
[19:11:05] <`Nerobro> And that tells me they're running that engine way to hard.
[19:11:36] <ssi> well that's the point :)
[19:11:48] <ssi> a 300HP IO540 makes 300HP at 2700rpm. That's MASSIVE torque
[19:11:53] <`Nerobro> it is!
[19:11:57] <ssi> 540 cubic inches on 5.5" pistons will do that
[19:12:02] <ssi> a 350 just isn't the same thing
[19:12:05] <`Nerobro> well 540 cubic inches will do that.
[19:12:11] <ssi> yeah they'll cget 300HP out of them in cars
[19:12:13] <`Nerobro> a 350 can get in the ballpark.
[19:12:16] <ssi> but 300HP in a car is not the same as 300HP in an airplane
[19:12:23] <`Nerobro> don't do that man.
[19:12:34] <`Nerobro> 300hp, is 300hp. Period.
[19:12:46] <ssi> no, no it's not
[19:12:53] <ssi> not when you add ∆t into it
[19:13:07] <ssi> 300hp continuous for an hour is not the same as 300hp at 10% duty cycle
[19:13:29] <`Nerobro> That's a different thing. And an important one to keep in mind.
[19:13:37] <`Nerobro> And why subarus suck in flight ;-)
[19:13:43] <ssi> when you say "they're running them way too hard"
[19:13:53] <ssi> what you really mean is "they're running them above 75% duty"
[19:14:08] <ssi> which is what airplane engines do all day long, and it's one of the top design criteriae
[19:14:25] <`Nerobro> They're running them above their 100% duty cycle rating.
[19:14:33] <ssi> which is what?
[19:14:40] <ssi> 50% peak power?
[19:15:10] <ssi> a lyc 180hp will run 180hp 100% duty
[19:15:17] <ssi> rated.
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[19:15:44] <`Nerobro> That's a good question. A good place to look is marine applications.
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[19:15:55] <`Nerobro> you acn get the same engines, that you find on the street, in marine applications.
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[19:16:05] <`Nerobro> with the apropreate power ratings for continious duty
[19:16:25] <`Nerobro> Mercruiser rebrands GM engines.
[19:16:33] <ssi> http://www.custombuiltmotors.com/index-2-3m.html
[19:16:53] <`Nerobro> a 200hp v6 ends up being a 150hp marine engine.
[19:17:30] <ssi> at what rpm?
[19:17:59] <`Nerobro> usually fairly high. But it gives you a good idea of what the heads can handle heat wise.
[19:18:27] <`Nerobro> If you're direct driving a propellor, you're not going to get into rpms that concern modern engines.
[19:18:39] <ssi> you're also not going to make enough power to make it worth doing
[19:18:48] <`Nerobro> hold on, lemmie dig up a dyno graph for you. :-)
[19:18:58] <`Nerobro> from gm
[19:19:15] <`Nerobro> which, I can only assume, is a reasonable source of data.
[19:19:30] <DaViruz> not very experienced with aircraft engines, but marine engines typically run pretty cool due to good supply of cool water, water cooled exhaust manifolds etc
[19:19:39] <ssi> DaViruz: good point
[19:19:42] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, water cooled exhausts reduce power.
[19:19:57] <ssi> cooling is one of the hardest things to do on moderate-power airplanes
[19:20:06] <DaViruz> i'd imagine so
[19:22:43] <DaViruz> i'd love to build an RV one day though
[19:22:51] <ssi> do it :)
[19:22:59] <ssi> I'd love to freakin finish mine :(
[19:23:04] <`Nerobro> http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/ls376-525.html#dyno If you can deal with the smaller prop, at say, 3200rpm, you'd be looking at 250hp.
[19:23:12] <DaViruz> i'll have to settle for 1/8 scale until then.. :)
[19:23:22] <`Nerobro> now they don't list block weight
[19:23:26] <`Nerobro> which is bothering me.
[19:23:44] <DaViruz> ssi: what are you building?
[19:23:45] <ssi> small prop is going to be less efficient
[19:23:50] <ssi> I'd love to see what fuel flow is like at that speed
[19:24:12] <ssi> overall you could run the numbers on it, and I'd be surprised if it outperforms an IO540 in any way
[19:24:13] <`Nerobro> at slower speeds, yes. So you'd take a big hit on takeoff, and lose some climb.
[19:24:27] <ssi> DaViruz: RV-7, 200hp constant speed, taildragger
[19:24:42] <`Nerobro> lets be fair, you'd need t ocompare it to a IO350, not a 540
[19:24:42] <`Nerobro> ;-)
[19:24:43] <DaViruz> that's what i'd build too.. :)
[19:24:51] <ssi> DaViruz: GRT HXr efis, GNS430, trio 2 axis fully coupled AP
[19:25:10] <ssi> `Nerobro: why? 250hp is IO540 territory
[19:25:12] <`Nerobro> At least if you want to compare what cylinder head and intake port technology does for an engine.
[19:25:25] <DaViruz> i was pretty close to ordering a rv7 kit a few years back
[19:25:30] <`Nerobro> the io540 needs nearly 200 more cubic inches to make the same power?
[19:25:30] <ssi> DaViruz: I started mine in 2007 :P
[19:25:38] <`Nerobro> I mean, we could look at the 540 chevy blocks too
[19:26:35] <ssi> `Nerobro: not exactly... the 540 makes 250hp at 2700rpm
[19:26:56] <DaViruz> torque vs volume is a much more useful comparision
[19:27:07] <ssi> honestly displacement doesn't matter
[19:27:11] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, but that gets murky as rpm goes up.
[19:27:21] <`Nerobro> you get better resonant tuning
[19:27:28] <`Nerobro> or at least better resonant effects
[19:27:30] <DaViruz> yeah, but you don't need a 15000rpm bike engine
[19:27:45] <ssi> IO540 can make 400hp if you want it to
[19:28:07] * `Nerobro looks at the 502..
[19:28:22] <DaViruz> ssi: so how's it coming along?
[19:28:23] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoYXw9xn8IE
[19:28:32] <`Nerobro> http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/big-block-502-ho.html 250hp at 2600 rpm.
[19:28:48] <ssi> DaViruz: airframe is mostly done, wiring mostly done, need to get the wing detail work finished so I can pull them and paint them, then hang the engine
[19:29:05] <ssi> major stuff I have left is firewall forward, interior, cowl
[19:29:08] <ssi> then fairing work
[19:29:22] <DaViruz> oh
[19:29:25] <ssi> holy shit the headers glowing
[19:29:31] <ssi> that's terrifying :)
[19:29:32] <DaViruz> you've done it from scratch?
[19:29:36] <ssi> DaViruz: yeah
[19:29:56] <DaViruz> kept track of time input? :)
[19:30:01] <ssi> nope!
[19:30:02] <`Nerobro> hah, the 502... is iron block.
[19:30:03] <ssi> I've been pretty slack
[19:30:13] <`Nerobro> and iorn heads.
[19:30:19] <DaViruz> i've seen nascar engines with glowing valve springs, that's terrifying
[19:30:22] <ssi> `Nerobro: it probably weighs at least twice what a 540 does
[19:30:28] <`Nerobro> Yeah. :-/
[19:30:32] <`Nerobro> there are aluminum 502s
[19:31:08] <ssi> 300hp IO540 weighs 438lb all up
[19:31:10] <`Nerobro> still, at 2750rpm, it's making 260hp.
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[19:31:25] <`Nerobro> ssi, i'm not about to make the arguement that every airplane should have a car engine in it. :-)
[19:31:35] <ssi> that's what you've been driving toward!
[19:31:36] <ssi> :)
[19:31:37] <`Nerobro> Aero engiens are freaky light.
[19:31:44] <`Nerobro> hahaha, not quite, just making the arguement for them.
[19:31:50] <ssi> my 200hp engine is only 258lb
[19:32:08] <ssi> and that's 200hp 400lbft
[19:32:13] <DaViruz> someone in that rv10 auto thread said "i'm both a huge fan and major sceptic of auto conversions", i can relate to that
[19:32:23] <ssi> DaViruz: yeah... that's about where I am
[19:32:24] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, i'm in the same boat.
[19:32:27] <ssi> I'd love to see it done well
[19:32:37] <ssi> but I also have a very firm grasp on the engineering challenges
[19:32:40] <`Nerobro> the best done auto conversions are atuo engines that look like airplane engines to start with.
[19:32:48] <`Nerobro> eg, corvair, vw
[19:32:49] <ssi> there are a lot of idealistic armchair engineers on the internet
[19:33:08] <ssi> forums are full up with posts that start "I'm a fourth year mechanical engineering student and I don't see why you cant..."
[19:33:39] <`Nerobro> ssi, And those are the ones who build the rotary and wonder why the seals blew out of it before they finished taxi tests..
[19:33:42] <ssi> oh thanks, the world has been sitting on its heels waiting for a genius such as yourself to come along and teach us that you can just put an LS1 in veerything!
[19:33:44] <`Nerobro> and those are the lucky ones.
[19:34:02] <ssi> it never occurred to ANY of us that modern auto engines have technology that make them more fuel efficient
[19:34:16] <`Nerobro> i'd love to see an airplane engine with fast burn heads.
[19:34:28] <ssi> kevin eldrige is working on something like that actually
[19:34:35] <`Nerobro> And some more attention paid to combustion chamber swirl
[19:34:54] <`Nerobro> ssi, is there something I should read about that?
[19:34:56] <ssi> http://www.mojaveflyin.com/2013/12/ace-360-cylinder-mod-nomination.html
[19:35:00] <ssi> trying to find more info
[19:35:05] <`Nerobro> cool
[19:35:20] <`Nerobro> I should say, my real desire for auto engines in airpalnes is for cylinder head tech.
[19:35:21] <`Nerobro> :-)
[19:35:27] <`Nerobro> I don't care which way it goes.
[19:35:39] <ssi> kevin knows more about the things that can go wrong in an airplane than all of us combined, btw
[19:35:42] <ssi> here's a fun one
[19:35:45] <ssi> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhyEnqudx8M
[19:35:48] <ssi> the sound it makes gives me chills
[19:36:20] <`Nerobro> ssi, okey, armchari engineer. :-)
[19:36:32] <`Nerobro> I want to see small turbines.
[19:36:37] <`Nerobro> .. he los the prop didn't he?
[19:36:37] <ssi> they exist too
[19:36:41] <ssi> yes he did
[19:36:45] <ssi> look up innodyne
[19:36:47] <ssi> they're gone now I think
[19:36:50] <ssi> but they were happening for a minute
[19:36:52] <`Nerobro> ssi, not with good BSFC
[19:37:05] <`Nerobro> It's really hard to get good compression ratios with small turbines.
[19:37:12] <`Nerobro> really, really, hard.
[19:37:17] <DaViruz> werent there two manufacturers who were trying to push "cheap" twiseater turbine jets?
[19:37:22] <DaViruz> a while back
[19:37:23] <ssi> also turbines get more efficient at altitude, and small airplanes don't tend to fly high enough
[19:37:27] <`Nerobro> that engine.. was astoundingly fast before it blew up
[19:37:34] <ssi> yep!
[19:37:46] <DaViruz> what happened?
[19:37:48] <ssi> when you instantly unload an engine making 400hp, they rev quick
[19:37:49] <`Nerobro> nice recovery.
[19:37:56] <ssi> DaViruz: hub failure I imagine
[19:38:08] <ssi> I think it was an MT wood composite prop
[19:38:10] <`Nerobro> nemisis kit?
[19:38:18] <DaViruz> i didn't think those engines were capable of that speed even unloaded
[19:38:30] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, right until they become hammer mills
[19:38:37] <DaViruz> yeah the instant unload make sense i suppose
[19:38:58] <ssi> pretty sure that engine had some severe damage
[19:39:00] <ssi> I recall seeing pictures
[19:39:11] <`Nerobro> I'd be really suprised if valves didn't meet pistons.
[19:39:15] <`Nerobro> and if the rods survived.
[19:39:23] <ssi> they're not interference
[19:39:29] <`Nerobro> ssi, at 12,000 rpm they are.
[19:39:29] <ssi> so only way for valves to meet pistons is if something let go
[19:39:30] <`Nerobro> :-)
[19:39:32] <ssi> which is definitely possible
[19:39:40] <`Nerobro> well, might be
[19:39:45] <`Nerobro> i've never measured clearnces
[19:39:53] <ssi> they're MASSIVE in those engines
[19:39:54] <`Nerobro> But kicking valves that hard is gonna break something.
[19:40:03] <`Nerobro> ssi, well that explains the bad BSFC
[19:40:04] <ssi> probably bend the pushrods first
[19:40:06] <`Nerobro> without quench...
[19:40:26] <ssi> yes it explains the bad BSFC, but it also explains the high reliability
[19:40:37] <`Nerobro> well, ability to handle failures.
[19:40:58] <`Nerobro> Oh yes, the other problem with turbines. is they throttle for crap.
[19:41:10] <`Nerobro> Their BSFC goes to hell at low power settings.
[19:41:24] <DaViruz> turboprop!
[19:41:29] <ssi> haha here you go
[19:41:29] <ssi> https://www.flickr.com/photos/everydaytuesday/4995127946/
[19:41:34] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, same thing for those.
[19:41:37] <ssi> that's the aftermath of that prop loss
[19:42:01] <DaViruz> yeah i thought your refered to throttle response
[19:42:09] <ssi> looks like the blades failed at the root
[19:42:21] <`Nerobro> they throttle pretty good from say.. 70-100%
[19:42:28] <`Nerobro> like, almost as fast as you can move levers.
[19:42:41] <`Nerobro> But at 70% throttle, they're burning something like 90% of the fuel
[19:42:58] <DaViruz> i have a model turbine jet, pretty hard to get used to the throttle response. hard to taxi
[19:43:13] <ssi> which turbine are you using?
[19:43:20] <DaViruz> wren 44
[19:43:24] <ssi> those bastards are far too expensive for me to crash into the damn ground :)
[19:43:32] <`Nerobro> tiny tiny tiny engine.
[19:43:37] <DaViruz> yeah
[19:43:46] <`Nerobro> they make the right noises though
[19:43:59] <DaViruz> it scared me half to death the first time i had it att 195000 rpm
[19:44:50] <`Nerobro> "My Hobbs read 96.3 the first time Subby quit due to the super charger belt wiping out the timing belt" why the hell do people do that?
[19:44:59] <DaViruz> ssi: for me too, which is why i've never had it in the air ;)
[19:45:09] <ssi> DaViruz: hahaha
[19:45:11] <DaViruz> a friend of mine has flown it though.
[19:45:24] <ssi> `Nerobro: do what? auto conversions? that's what I said!
[19:45:31] <DaViruz> tore the main gear out of one of the wings on start
[19:45:32] <`Nerobro> ssi, add complexity when i'ts not needed
[19:45:39] <ssi> which complexity are you referring to?
[19:45:40] <DaViruz> taking a pretty good part of the wing skin with it
[19:45:42] <ssi> the blower?
[19:45:46] <`Nerobro> you're already developing a new engine platform, so you're going to superchage it too?
[19:45:52] <`Nerobro> with a god damned belt?
[19:45:54] <ssi> yea beats me
[19:46:06] <`Nerobro> Hey, i'm going to go ride a unicycle, while juggling lawnmowers.
[19:46:34] <DaViruz> not even on a slackline?
[19:46:46] <ssi> but remember, I'm the moron who thinks he's better off buying a used lycosaurus and burning the fuel
[19:46:58] <`Nerobro> Oh yes! ssi isn't it thunder mustang who sells a honda v6 engine for their t51's?
[19:47:07] <ssi> dunno, haven't seen that
[19:47:21] <`Nerobro> one of the "clone companies" has a well developed honda v6 package.
[19:47:35] <`Nerobro> Titan Aircraft approves and endorses both the Suzuki and Honda V6s for their T-51 replicas
[19:47:53] <ssi> they can have it :P
[19:47:55] <`Nerobro> ssi, it also should be said that homebuilders fuck up lyc/cont installs too
[19:48:01] <`Nerobro> Badly.
[19:48:08] <ssi> example?
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[19:48:40] <ssi> at this point I feel like you're just arguing for arguments sake :)
[19:48:46] <`Nerobro> I'd need to do some digging. But bad fuel line routing, bad throttle cables, little and bad baffling.
[19:48:55] <`Nerobro> ssi, I'm just poking at your brain, seeing what comes out. :-)
[19:49:07] <`Nerobro> you've got some good stuff in there.
[19:49:13] <`Nerobro> Well researched opinions.
[19:49:16] <ssi> ok well here you go
[19:49:22] <ssi> bad fuel line routing can cause vapor lock issues
[19:49:28] <`Nerobro> and I'm kinda enjoying the conversation.
[19:49:36] <ssi> bad baffling results in poor cooling and loss of speed
[19:49:44] <ssi> bad throttle cable routing is just a hassle
[19:49:57] <ssi> only the first one concerns me in the slightest as a safety of flight issue,
[19:50:07] <ssi> and vapor lock typically manifests on the ground as hot start issues
[19:50:29] <ssi> for certified installs, DAR will typically catch any actual safety of flight issues
[19:50:30] <`Nerobro> I feel like a lot of the bad rep that auto conversions get is becasue the same guy who would use his underwear for cowling baffles is also the sam guy trying to put a 350 in the nose of his superautoblasterglidemaster 2
[19:50:39] <ssi> maybe, but I don't think so
[19:50:46] <ssi> most builders are actually very conscientious
[19:51:05] <ssi> the auto conversions are alluring, and a lot of them get purchased as kits from eggy and others
[19:51:06] <`Nerobro> The DA-2 i sat in this summer, had a lot of things that .. bothered me.. about it's engine install.
[19:51:58] <ssi> so here, what do you think about the fact that I did machine work to my engine?
[19:52:02] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/AvMitbRCMAAtrpB.jpg
[19:52:04] <ssi> :P
[19:52:23] <`Nerobro> You already had my respect on the subject. ;-)
[19:52:27] <ssi> haha
[19:52:35] <ssi> I meant more in the "bothers you" category :)
[19:52:37] <`Nerobro> changing the carburator mount?
[19:52:43] <ssi> fuel servo, but yes
[19:52:48] <`Nerobro> Cool
[19:52:50] <ssi> it was a C1C, which is a piper arrow engine
[19:52:54] <ssi> aft facing servo
[19:52:55] <`Nerobro> wouldn't bother me one bit.
[19:52:57] <ssi> I need forward facing servo
[19:53:17] <ssi> fortunately the boss is cast in on both sides, so I just machined a mount on the fwd boss and made a blockoff plate for the aft boss
[19:53:21] <DaViruz> what's a fuel servo?
[19:53:28] <ssi> DaViruz: throttle body essentially
[19:53:36] <DaViruz> oh.
[19:53:43] <ssi> it's a fuel injected engine, but it's mechanical fuel injection
[19:53:44] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, IIRC, airplanes tend to have continious flow injection systems
[19:53:53] <`Nerobro> and they use a mechanical servo to adjust the fuel flow.
[19:54:04] <`Nerobro> as opposed to car engines, which use pulsed injectors.
[19:54:06] <ssi> fuel servo has the throttle plate and mechanism to adjust flow to the spider based on airflow and mixture lever setting
[19:54:27] <DaViruz> why is it called a servo?
[19:54:29] <`Nerobro> They're nice in that their failure modes tend to be "soft"
[19:54:35] <`Nerobro> DaViruz, becasue it's a feedback mechanism
[19:54:40] <ssi> because it adjusts the fuel delivery based on feedback
[19:54:42] <`Nerobro> it monitors flow rate to meter fuel
[19:54:48] <DaViruz> i see
[19:54:49] <`Nerobro> air flow rate that is.
[19:54:54] <ssi> `Nerobro: you familiar with the gamijector system?
[19:54:57] <DaViruz> oh
[19:55:06] <`Nerobro> ssi, yes.
[19:55:13] <ssi> gami is for certified engines
[19:55:28] <ssi> there's a place called airflow performance in south carolina that does the same balancing services for exp
[19:55:42] <ssi> I'm going to have them overhaul my fuel system and do balanced nozzles for me
[19:55:45] <`Nerobro> Nice.
[19:55:55] <ssi> pretty significant efficiency gains to be had out of balanced nozzles
[19:56:04] <`Nerobro> Thats true for cars too. :-)
[19:56:16] <ssi> sure, but cars can much more easily trim injectors
[19:56:31] <`Nerobro> you need an efi system that monitors per-cylinder to do that though
[19:56:33] <`Nerobro> which is uncommon
[19:56:40] <ssi> state of the art for 60 years was to lean the engine to 100F rich of peak on the leanest cyl
[19:57:05] <ssi> I think on cars they trim injectors based on cyl misfire monitoring
[19:57:08] <`Nerobro> we've been at this for a while. you should show off your RV.
[19:57:20] <ssi> oh you weren't here when I posted pics earlier huh?
[19:57:20] <`Nerobro> ssi, they do it based on the o2 sensor.
[19:57:22] <ssi> sec
[19:57:23] <`Nerobro> nope!
[19:57:36] <`Nerobro> They use the knock sensor for high load situations.
[19:58:05] <ssi> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t1.0-9/1002452_10100172352107502_451434214_n.jpg
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[19:58:08] <ssi> cherokee in the back is mine too
[19:58:14] <ssi> https://scontent-a-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/247629_10100172352152412_325887569_n.jpg
[19:58:19] <ssi> https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t1.0-9/999377_10100174259525022_643921429_n.jpg
[19:58:28] <`Nerobro> I think we've talked about this before.
[19:58:29] <`Nerobro> :-)
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[19:58:38] <ssi> very possible
[19:58:43] <`Nerobro> it's a good looking plane.
[19:58:50] <ssi> it will be one day :P
[19:58:51] <`Nerobro> I hope to get my DA-2 started this fall.
[19:59:11] <ssi> it's the detail work like this that bogs me down
[19:59:11] <ssi> https://scontent-b-iad.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/1069164_10100180762612782_513838925_n.jpg
[20:00:17] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BP82tIjCUAAd30S.jpg
[20:00:33] <ssi> had to add little fiberglass bumps to the ends of the wings for the lights
[20:00:39] <`Nerobro> have you looked at composite planes?
[20:00:45] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BP824wuCAAENdnQ.jpg
[20:00:46] <ssi> yes
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[20:00:55] <`Nerobro> when I was first making decisions, I was looking closely at the KR-1/2 planes
[20:01:01] <_methods> gotta love west system
[20:01:12] <ssi> I'd probably do a composite scratchbuild before I did a sheet metal scratchbuild
[20:01:23] <`Nerobro> hah
[20:01:29] <ssi> I've done tube and fabric work too
[20:01:30] <`Nerobro> I'm quite comfortable in sheetmetal.
[20:01:32] <ssi> I started on a pitts
[20:01:36] * SpeedEvil ponders if a PLA plane is manufacturable
[20:01:37] <ssi> and I'm going to build a breezy after the RV
[20:01:49] <ssi> SpeedEvil: sure, it's been done
[20:02:08] <ssi> https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=3d+printed+airplane
[20:02:09] <ssi> :P
[20:02:09] <`Nerobro> But i've built a LOT of model planes. So the whole stick/ply/foam method is something I know really, really well.
[20:02:20] <SpeedEvil> ssi: I mean full size
[20:02:47] <ssi> SpeedEvil: it's theoretically feasible, given proper structure... but it's probably not practical
[20:02:55] <SpeedEvil> yeah
[20:02:59] <`Nerobro> PLA, cast? maybe.
[20:03:03] <`Nerobro> printed PLA, no.
[20:03:09] <`Nerobro> at least not something i'd want to fly in.
[20:03:14] <ssi> same here :P
[20:03:15] <SpeedEvil> Done right, printing could be interesting
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[20:03:25] <SpeedEvil> For example, filliment reinforced
[20:03:34] <ssi> printing has very very very poor shear/tensile strength in the Z dimension relative to the print
[20:03:38] <SpeedEvil> And yes
[20:03:43] <_methods> i don't think pla does well in sunlight
[20:04:16] <`Nerobro> ssi, exactly, bonding between layers is the problem
[20:04:21] <`Nerobro> laser sintering can work.
[20:04:55] <CaptHindsight> stop taking glue gun printing seriously
[20:05:32] <ssi> i tell all the 3d printer maker weenies that I've invented a new form of manufacturing that's going to revolutionize the maker community
[20:05:36] <ssi> it's called "reverse 3d printing"
[20:05:48] <ssi> and it involves starting with a block of material and selectively removing parts of it
[20:05:59] <CaptHindsight> hot melts can have shear/tensile strength is any axis, just not the way recraps do it and with PLA
[20:06:01] <SpeedEvil> It's just another means of manufacture.
[20:06:01] <`Nerobro> ssi, hahahahah
[20:06:19] <SpeedEvil> Much like a microwave is just another cooking tool
[20:06:34] <SpeedEvil> You try to use anything outside of where it's good, and it's fail
[20:07:24] <SpeedEvil> Just like trying to mill in a drill press.
[20:07:40] <ssi> `Nerobro: so I started designing an airplane around this wing that I want to build in composite
[20:07:43] <ssi> `Nerobro: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQIEu-zCcAAl1I4.png
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[20:07:57] <CaptHindsight> epoxy carbon fiber printing, polymerize as you print
[20:07:58] <`Nerobro> htat looks really scary to stall
[20:08:02] <ssi> so don't stall it :)
[20:08:06] <ssi> it'll have a touch of washout to help
[20:08:20] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQHpseaCEAAB4G7.png:large
[20:08:27] <`Nerobro> I prefer using wing shape, and airfoil shape to washout.
[20:08:31] <`Nerobro> washout makes me twitch
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[20:08:43] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BQHJDoRCYAA8tpz.png:large
[20:08:49] <`Nerobro> that wing screams spitfire to me
[20:08:59] <ssi> yeah it's the same 25% modified ellipse as the spit
[20:09:11] <ssi> and it'll have a commesurate inverse modified elliptical tail like the spit
[20:09:14] <ssi> and similar wing root fairings
[20:09:23] <ssi> but I want it to be single seat, 180hp, 250kt or better :)
[20:09:32] <ssi> and retract if I can shove it in that thin ass wing
[20:09:39] <ssi> it's ambitious
[20:09:44] <`Nerobro> the spitfire was a bitch on stalls. To the point they had to throw tons of washout to make it safe.
[20:09:55] <ssi> yeah i know
[20:10:05] <`Nerobro> tee hee hee
[20:10:10] <ssi> but the spit is a MUCH bigger airplane
[20:10:12] <`Nerobro> the big reason I wanted to do a KR-2 was retracts.
[20:10:15] <ssi> this thing should stall in the 3kt range
[20:10:19] <ssi> 35kt
[20:10:20] <ssi> lul
[20:10:34] <ssi> I'm not scared of a whipstall in an airplane that stalls that slowly
[20:10:52] * `Nerobro has very little fear of stalls.
[20:11:13] <`Nerobro> But it seems that a lot of planes out there are not competant at recovery. :-/
[20:11:25] <ssi> eh that shouldn't be an issue
[20:11:29] <ssi> I like big rudders :)
[20:11:45] <ssi> I'm digging through my pictures looking for interesting stuff
[20:11:49] <ssi> I flit through these weird phases
[20:11:58] <ssi> after that, several months of designing and building bitcoin asic miners heh
[20:12:58] <ssi> aha, nav antenna installation
[20:12:58] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BTDHaUlCUAALux6.jpg:large
[20:13:16] <`Nerobro> It impresses me how .. marginal.. airplanes that passed far23 were made.
[20:13:29] <ssi> heh airplanes are simple
[20:13:31] <ssi> they're a shape
[20:13:39] <`Nerobro> right, but fast airplanes are less simple.
[20:13:50] <ssi> this is true
[20:14:08] <`Nerobro> And faster airplanes need low drag. Low drag comes from less surface and frontal area.
[20:14:12] <ssi> bad picture, but heer's the panel
[20:14:12] <ssi> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bp8v2v2IQAElKZ_.jpg:large
[20:14:18] <`Nerobro> So.. fast twins...
[20:14:29] <ssi> heh twins aren't fast because they're clean
[20:14:38] <ssi> they're fast because they have twice the power for 10% more speed :)
[20:14:48] <`Nerobro> no, thy're not. But they're also given as little rudder as they can
[20:14:56] <`Nerobro> well, as little fin as they can.
[20:15:03] <`Nerobro> Because big fins bleed speed
[20:15:05] <ssi> it's fine... twins are irrelevant these days
[20:15:31] <`Nerobro> Yeah, the place they would have twins, is now filled by turboprop singles.
[20:15:55] <`Nerobro> and seven digit price tags
[20:16:13] <ssi> https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/t1.0-9/995435_10100180779738462_1530407627_n.jpg
[20:16:16] <ssi> lol
[20:17:04] <ssi> heh
[20:17:04] <ssi> https://scontent-b-mia.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t31.0-8/904501_10100127757156142_1721581625_o.jpg
[20:18:05] <`Nerobro> Oof
[20:18:07] <`Nerobro> poor cessna
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[20:18:11] <`Nerobro> how did it end up there?
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[20:19:33] <SpeedEvil> I'm guessing wind
[20:19:48] <ssi> nah, nothing that dramatic
[20:20:02] <ssi> he parked it without chocking it, turned around to open the hangar, and it rolled down the hill :)
[20:20:07] <SpeedEvil> ah
[20:20:26] <SpeedEvil> Above discussion about stresses on prop bearings is relevant
[20:20:28] <`Nerobro> while we're talking about pilot s being silly..
[20:20:36] <ssi> SpeedEvil: indeed
[20:20:43] <ssi> he ended up having to tear that engine down
[20:20:43] <`Nerobro> I think KR people aren't very good with CG management
[20:23:21] <ssi> why's that
[20:23:33] <`Nerobro> Lots of complaints of plane stability.
[20:23:43] <`Nerobro> Between building the plane heavy.
[20:24:02] <`Nerobro> and not monitoring their CGs well. and a design that has the CG move aft pretty rapidly as fuel burns...
[20:24:02] <ssi> building light is tough
[20:24:26] <ssi> RV7 has a tendency to be tail heavy, which is how I rationalized the big engine and aluminum constant speed prop
[20:24:27] <`Nerobro> Kinda, sorta...
[20:24:42] <ssi> it's a heavy package, but i needed weight on the nose anyway
[20:24:45] <`Nerobro> ignoring the desire to "beef up" parts is hard.
[20:24:47] <ssi> plus 200hp CS is amazing in that plane
[20:26:09] <`Nerobro> I would imagine so.
[20:26:21] <`Nerobro> I'm just looking for 100hp and 2 people at 120mph. :-)
[20:26:27] <`Nerobro> and 4gph
[20:27:00] <ssi> I'm shooting for 2 people, 220mph on 10gph :)
[20:28:23] <`Nerobro> tee hee hee. I'm aiming a lot lower.
[20:29:09] <ssi> I'm guessing it's light sport eligible?
[20:29:13] <`Nerobro> nope
[20:29:18] <ssi> well then
[20:29:20] <`Nerobro> it's a little to fast for that.
[20:30:11] <`Nerobro> and I have no desire to go LSA. :-/ I like to fly at night, and I'd rather not get my ass handed to me for IFR.
[20:31:22] <ssi> I like to go fast :)
[20:31:28] <`Nerobro> tee hee hee.
[20:31:30] <ssi> I want to be able to do ATL-SFO in one day
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[20:31:47] <`Nerobro> If I really wanted fast... there are other places to look.
[20:31:54] <`Nerobro> I still drool over the white lightning.
[20:31:59] <`Nerobro> 4 seats, screaming fast..
[20:32:38] <ssi> the RV is just a great compromise all the way around
[20:32:42] <ssi> not the fastest, but faster than most
[20:32:48] <ssi> not the STOL'iest, but STOL'ier than most
[20:32:57] <ssi> not the aerobaticest, but aerobaticier than most
[20:33:14] <ssi> not the most fuel efficient, but fuel efficientier than most
[20:34:17] * `Nerobro nods
[20:34:19] <`Nerobro> I like RV's.
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[20:34:37] <ssi> plus they're fairly inexpensive to build for what they are, and there's 8700 of them flying
[20:34:44] <ssi> there's more of them flying than every other homebuild combined
[20:34:47] <`Nerobro> Now you're making me think about what the g limits are on the DA-2
[20:35:09] <`Nerobro> I 'think" i'll need to do the math
[20:36:07] <`Nerobro> it's one of those things where you get to write your own POH.
[20:36:20] <ssi> sure
[20:36:31] <ssi> rvs are that way too, but there's some "heavily suggested" numbers :)
[20:36:38] <`Nerobro> tee hee hee.
[20:36:46] <ssi> you can set your own gross weight, which is awesome
[20:36:49] <`Nerobro> I do know the worst group of homebuilt pilots though.
[20:36:54] <ssi> they recommend 1800, but I'm gonna do 2100 prolly
[20:36:58] * `Nerobro nods
[20:37:02] <ssi> since it'll be overpowered
[20:37:04] <ssi> 1800 is based on 150hp
[20:37:08] <`Nerobro> once I do the spar math, I"ll calculate my gross.
[20:37:32] <`Nerobro> Given Davis's math though, it's not likely I'll find much, if any, weight.
[20:37:53] <`Nerobro> The most disgusting group of homebuilders are the Affordaplane people.
[20:38:06] <ssi> lol
[20:38:19] <ssi> so the way the RV does it, is you can set your own normal category gross
[20:38:29] <ssi> but aerobatic gross is fixed by the spar
[20:38:35] <ssi> and it's 1600lb EXCLUDING FUEL
[20:38:35] <`Nerobro> NOBODY builds to the plans. The plane, built to plans, isn't an ultralight, and nobody publishes their data.
[20:38:38] <ssi> because fuel is carried by the wings
[20:38:45] <`Nerobro> ssi, nice.
[20:38:58] <ssi> and it's +6/-3
[20:39:01] <`Nerobro> how are you handling fuel? redundant electric pumps?
[20:39:15] <ssi> nah, it's pretty standard
[20:39:22] <ssi> electric boost pump in the cabin, mechanical engine driven pump
[20:39:34] * `Nerobro nods
[20:39:46] <`Nerobro> I've only actually flown a 172. so it's got gravity, and a boost pump
[20:40:13] <ssi> yeah I'm used to low wings, so it'll be pretty standard for me
[20:40:32] <`Nerobro> one complaint I have of the DA-2, is the fuel tank is in the cabin.
[20:40:44] <`Nerobro> Which hte FAA doesn't like much.
[20:40:56] <ssi> yeah I don't like it either
[20:41:02] <ssi> in a crash, I like to leave my fuel behind :)
[20:41:09] <`Nerobro> Hah. right.
[20:41:17] <ssi> RV wings are designed so the wings fold back on impact
[20:41:23] * `Nerobro nods
[20:41:25] <ssi> front fuel tank attach is a slip joint
[20:41:32] <`Nerobro> neat!
[20:41:57] <`Nerobro> one person has built a DA-2 with wing tanks.
[20:42:30] <ssi> in case you're interested
[20:42:32] <ssi> I scanned my plans :P
[20:42:33] <ssi> http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/Aircraft_Manuals/RV-7/Plans.pdf
[20:42:39] <`Nerobro> Yes, I'm very interested.
[20:45:39] <ssi> dwg 36, section D-D shows that tank attach
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[20:46:20] <ssi> also dwg 38, detail
[20:46:21] <ssi> F
[20:48:42] <ssi> `Nerobro: what part of the world are you in?
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[20:49:48] <`Nerobro> Chicago.
[20:49:57] <ssi> ahh
[20:50:00] <ssi> do they still allow aviation there?
[20:50:01] <`Nerobro> You?
[20:50:03] <ssi> I thought daly ran it all out :)
[20:50:05] <`Nerobro> Hahah, yes.
[20:50:06] <ssi> I'm in atlanta
[20:50:10] <`Nerobro> i'm west of chicago.
[20:50:14] <`Nerobro> by a whole bunch of airports.
[20:50:25] <`Nerobro> daley fucked up by killing meigs field
[20:50:45] <ssi> yep
[20:51:10] <ssi> this is pretty good too: http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/Aircraft_Manuals/MCHSAC.pdf
[20:51:48] <`Nerobro> what is it?
[20:52:14] <ssi> moldless composite homebuilt sandwich aircraft construction
[20:52:19] <`Nerobro> aaaah
[20:52:26] <`Nerobro> pazmany's book.
[20:52:37] <ssi> nope, rutan book
[20:52:38] <`Nerobro> I have all of Tony Bingellis's books.
[20:52:42] <ssi> I have the pazmany book too
[20:52:52] <`Nerobro> wtf
[20:52:57] <`Nerobro> I opened light aricraft design
[20:53:00] <ssi> http://www.prototechnical.com/~imcmahon/Aircraft_Manuals/Light_Aircraft_Design.pdf
[20:53:03] <ssi> yea
[20:53:05] <ssi> hahah
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[20:53:28] <`Nerobro> I'm falling down the hole of book smart plane builder.
[20:53:35] <`Nerobro> I need to start riveting stuff
[20:53:46] <ssi> yes, that part is important :)
[20:54:00] <`Nerobro> I did attend the classes on metal work at oshkosh last year.
[20:54:02] <ssi> you're welcome to come help with mine :)
[20:54:04] <ssi> free on the job training
[20:54:05] <ssi> hahaha
[20:54:22] <`Nerobro> If I am ever down that way, I"ll volunteer.
[20:54:30] <ssi> I did gas welding aluminum sheet metal workshop at osh in `12
[20:54:35] <ssi> was it 12 or 11? I can't remember
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[20:56:40] <ssi> h_maximilian: you still around?
[20:59:20] <h_maximilian> ssi: Was away, now back again for 10mins more, then to bed
[20:59:37] <ssi> so I'm not 100% up to date on what you've been doing;
[20:59:42] <ssi> you're using gantrykins?
[20:59:47] <h_maximilian> had a look at homing.c
[21:00:13] <ssi> what was the actual problem you ran into?
[21:00:22] <h_maximilian> I thing I can introduce a new state there to wait for all the joints that make up an axis to wait
[21:00:34] <h_maximilian> until they have all reached there home switch
[21:01:06] <h_maximilian> I want to put a linuxcnc controller to an existing machine with two X joints
[21:01:13] <ssi> right
[21:01:15] <ssi> I have two Y joints
[21:01:20] <h_maximilian> it is a X X Y Z C configuration
[21:01:56] <h_maximilian> in homing.c there are two functions which are called from control.c
[21:02:19] <h_maximilian> do_homing_sequence is for the HOME_SEQUENCE part in the .ini file
[21:02:57] <h_maximilian> and do_homing is the "classical" homing which can be driven by do_homing_sequence
[21:03:24] <h_maximilian> and yes, I do want to use gantrykins
[21:03:42] <h_maximilian> but by gantry can be twisted quite easily
[21:03:47] <h_maximilian> s/by/my
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[21:04:18] <h_maximilian> how are you doing it currently with your two Y joints ?
[21:04:22] <ssi> I'm not, yet
[21:04:27] <ssi> I'm about to start doing hal work to make that happen
[21:04:38] <ssi> but my thought was: switch to gantrykins, set both Y joints to the same homing sequence level
[21:04:42] <ssi> and then... profit?
[21:04:48] <ssi> I'm not sure what the problem you had there was
[21:05:57] <h_maximilian> The problem is that the gantry can be twisted when I start the homing sequence and then the joints will hit their home switches at different times
[21:06:06] <ssi> right
[21:06:12] <ssi> do you have them jog to another position after they home?
[21:06:24] <ssi> cause I could see that being a problem if one is still homing when the other tries to jog
[21:06:31] <h_maximilian> and one joint will still search the home switch while the other joint will already back off the joint
[21:06:42] <h_maximilian> yes
[21:06:45] <h_maximilian> that is the case
[21:06:49] <ssi> ok that makes sense
[21:07:08] <h_maximilian> the home position is some couple of centimeters away
[21:07:10] <ssi> so you're trying to modify the homing code so that it waits for all joints in a level to finish homing before the jog?
[21:07:31] <h_maximilian> because it's some big router machine type setup
[21:07:46] <h_maximilian> and you can only change the tools when you drive to the edge
[21:08:01] <ssi> I see
[21:08:07] <ssi> I don't really have a "home position" really
[21:08:16] <ssi> it's a plasma machine, and so there's no real origin
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[21:08:22] <h_maximilian> but the area to work is not at the edge
[21:08:25] <ssi> so maybe that won't be an issue fo me
[21:08:35] <h_maximilian> because there the vaccum is not so good
[21:09:08] <h_maximilian> no, that won't be an issue for you, methinks
[21:09:13] <ssi> cool, thanks for the info :)
[21:09:24] <ssi> I still need to install the gantry limit switches
[21:09:31] <h_maximilian> anyway, 23:09 here. Had a long, too long day
[21:09:37] <ssi> gnight :)
[21:09:50] <h_maximilian> if I successfully manage that gantry stuff
[21:10:05] <h_maximilian> then I'll put notes somewhere
[21:10:07] <h_maximilian> bye
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[21:13:27] <ries> ssi: if you can, with the limit switches you can create a ‘home’ you won’t really use it as such, but it allows LinuxCNC to know it’s limits
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[21:39:54] <CaptHindsight> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20140612-3d-printing-a-remote-control-car-in-carbon-fibre-reinforced-plastic.html
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[21:41:10] <ssi> ries: I know, this is more an issue of homing two joints that are part of the same axis simultaneously
[21:41:27] <Deejay> gn8
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[21:42:10] <ries> ssi: what sort of machine do you have? I thought I did read plasma… I assume X/Y/Z ?
[21:42:28] <ssi> yeah it's plasma, gantry machine, XYZY
[21:42:36] <ssi> or XYYZ depending on your perspective :)
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[21:49:18] <JT-Shop> ssi, your plasma stepper or servo?
[21:51:18] <ssi> stepper
[21:53:02] <ries> ssi: if I may ask… what is the second Y ?
[21:53:12] <ssi> left and right sides of the gantry
[21:53:19] <ssi> independent motors
[21:53:36] <ries> ssi: you control them independenly from LinuxCNC also?
[21:54:05] <ssi> well up to now, no. I've had one stepgen driving two pins, driving two stepper drivers
[21:54:16] <ssi> but what I'm working on now is switching to gantrykins and having two joints for the one axis
[21:54:22] <ries> ssi: I know some people use that to support auto squaring…
[21:54:34] <ries> I think ppl still call that XYZ....
[21:54:54] <ries> my gantry also has two stepper motors and two differs, but I also control them with just 2 ‘Y’ pins
[21:54:57] <ssi> autosquaring is exactly what I'm after
[21:55:20] <ries> ssi: you care for that kinda precission with a plasma?
[21:55:29] <ssi> yes
[21:55:36] <ries> woow…
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[21:55:36] <ssi> because out of square gantry makes VERY bad cuts
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[21:56:51] <ries> I guess it depends how much out of square you talk about :) I never had issues with it, I mill in wood
[21:57:07] <ssi> last bad cut I made it was 1/4" out over 12"
[21:57:12] <ssi> that's pretty out of square
[21:57:25] <ries> that sounds bad...
[21:57:31] <ries> I never seen that issue myself
[21:57:46] <ssi> I would like to be able to cut a 12x12 square and have it not be out of square TO THE NAKED EYE
[21:57:48] <ries> once calibrated, I am usually good to go
[21:57:49] <ssi> :)
[21:58:05] <ssi> yeah me too, but the calibration process right now is entirely by hand, and it's too easy to knock it out
[21:58:18] <ssi> independent homing means I can square it once and then it'll always return to square
[21:59:24] <ssi> JT-Shop: you know anything about ohmic sensing?
[22:00:44] <ries> ssi: I know that some people square the machine by adding two stop blocks, then before they turn the machone on they pull the gantry against the stop blocks. Once’s on, the machine is resobly squared, at least good enough for woodworking
[22:01:31] <ries> I have a mechmate, which has a pretty heavy gantry
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[22:03:36] <ries> ssi: homing is pretty well explained on the site
[22:03:57] <ssi> for gantrykins? It's sparse from what I've seen :P
[22:04:06] <ries> this was my start page http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/config_ini_homing.html
[22:04:31] <ries> I have 3 switches in series and I home first Z, then X then Y
[22:04:55] <ssi> I'm fully aware of how trivkins homing works
[22:05:08] <ries> … not for gantrykins
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[22:05:11] <ssi> with gantrykins, it has to home both Y motors at the same time without them getting too far apart from each other
[22:05:33] <ssi> that's what max and I were discussing... he had a problem where one motor would finish homing then try to jog to another position while the other motor was still homing
[22:05:42] <ssi> since they're linked together by a gantry, that's a Bad Thing
[22:06:21] <ries> that sounds like a bad thing to me :)
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[22:41:18] <jthornton> since it is stepper driven can you push the gantry to a hard stop to square it up?
[22:42:01] <jthornton> and since it is plasma it is not critical where home is... it just needs to be kinda close so soft limits work
[22:42:40] <SpeedEvil> http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&p=620668 - to carry on with the talk about planes from earlier.
[22:49:24] <jthornton> ssi, I think I've hear of ohmic sensing...
[22:50:21] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j19na8LMBnE hows this for a carbon fiber weaving machine?
[22:53:14] <SpeedEvil> 'So, I have 894 axes, how do I hook them up to a parallel port'
[22:54:11] <JT-Shop> wires
[22:55:49] <CaptHindsight> ohmic sensing is a marketing term for N.O. switch
[22:55:59] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJAAhq4Jap8
[22:57:41] <CaptHindsight> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohmic_contact
[23:00:41] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JBp61EkQ1M 25 Schottky and Ohmic contacts
[23:01:24] <CaptHindsight> http://www.ee.sc.edu/personal/faculty/simin/ELCT871/11%20Ohmic%20contacts.pdf
[23:04:15] <CaptHindsight> http://www.answers.com/topic/ohmic-contact
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[23:10:53] <CaptHindsight> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osCPWMyJOj8 CNC Jaquard Loom this done right would be great
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[23:12:17] <CaptHindsight> http://www.osloom.org/
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[23:22:33] <ssi> lol
[23:23:05] <ssi> jthornton: you know it never even occurred to me to square the gantry by pushing it against stops :P
[23:23:16] <ssi> but I'm nearly done with everything I need to do it with switches
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[23:38:25] <tjtr33> JT-Shop, you mean just let 'em loose steps for a while, bulling into a hard stop?
[23:38:26] <tjtr33> then, maybe back 'em off 1 step and call that sync'd?
[23:39:10] <ssi> unpowered...just shove it against the stops and then power it up
[23:39:14] <ssi> that'd be good enough
[23:40:24] <tjtr33> either way is ignoring any crabbing/racking prior to the alignment ,but could work
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[23:45:50] <tjtr33> if you're gonna man-handle the gantry, add a clamp on one end of cross arm. push pillars into stops, clamp them. then clamp the cross bar into 90 deg. energize amos, then say "i'm home gracie!"
[23:46:04] <tjtr33> amos/amps
[23:48:31] <tjtr33> (and unclamp the pillars before moving gantry ;)
[23:53:48] <tjtr33> http://www.wolfautomation.com/products/31134/ultra-precise-limit-switchesbrbaumer-my-com-series
[23:54:19] <tjtr33> precision switches good to a micron ( home swxs for AGie wedm's )
[23:54:49] <tjtr33> stick that in your hard stop and home it ;)
[23:57:07] <JT-Shop> tjtr33, just push the gantry up to the stop then turn it on... your square and home
[23:58:49] <tjtr33> gotcha, good idea( simple enuf for me ) could also be automated
[23:58:55] <LeelooMinai> Hmm... does liunuxcnc work on any 64-bit systems, or only 32-bit ones?
[23:59:09] <LeelooMinai> I am looking at this: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?LinuxCNC_On_Ubuntu_Precise
[23:59:34] <LeelooMinai> And they exlude 64-bit ubuntu, but not sure if this is some global exclusion