Back
[00:02:05] <Tom_itx> i've done some pretty good work via chat talk :)
[00:02:35] <Tom_itx> i know what that is ( i think )
[00:02:52] <Tom_itx> friggin reprap parts
[00:03:53] <tjb1> im switching to thermocouple and need a place to stick it
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[00:04:19] <Tom_itx> considered a PT100?
[00:05:27] <tjb1> That works the same as a thermistor?
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[00:05:45] <Tom_itx> it's quite linear
[00:05:56] <Tom_itx> i use one on my toaster oven
[00:06:04] <andypugh> Thermocouples are just two bits of wire. They don't need any space at all to exist in.
[00:06:08] <tjb1> But it works in the same way
[00:06:43] <Tom_itx> yeah but they need an op amp to boost the signal
[00:06:52] <tjb1> Hmm
[00:07:01] <andypugh> Technically the thermocouple is the electrical connection between the two bits of wire, in fact.
[00:07:13] <Tom_itx> i used the internal 1.1v reference on mine and hooked it straight to an adc input
[00:07:22] <tjb1> Yes andypugh, but its much easier to screw one in and go to town
[00:07:53] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/toaster_oven/PT100_a.jpg
[00:07:58] <Tom_itx> they're quite small
[00:08:01] <andypugh> I used to just spot-weld two bits of wire to the surface of my specimens.
[00:11:46] <andypugh> You can get them down to tiny sizes as a packaged item, if you prefer.
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouples/7877822/
[00:11:59] <Tom_itx> how did you calibrate it?
[00:12:09] <andypugh> Me?
[00:12:18] <Tom_itx> yeah
[00:12:36] <andypugh> I used commercial thermocouple wire. So the standard amps "Just Worked"
[00:14:29] <Tom_itx> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-PT100-Stainless-Steel-Thermocouple-Temperature-Sensor-Probe-2m-Cable-3-fork-/360613245965?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53f639740d
[00:14:46] <Tom_itx> those are too big for your application though
[00:15:07] <andypugh> The spot-weld was an electrical connection, so both wires were at the same potential at that point. They were at the same temperature, as they were in intimate contact. At the other end of the wire they were at the same temperature too, so the thermoelectric effect meant that they were at different potentials at the other end.
[00:15:56] <andypugh> The thermocouple "magic" isn't in the connection, it is in the wires.
[00:16:47] <Tom_itx> dissimilar metals
[00:16:47] <andypugh> Actually, copper is a reasonable thermocouple wire.
[00:17:07] <andypugh> (It is used as one half of some couples)
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[00:18:04] <andypugh> Any wire that is hot at one end and cold at the other will have a different voltage at each end. The tricky part is measuring it, because the same is true of the measuring wire.
[00:18:34] <andypugh> I guess that the perfect thermocouple wire would be something with absolutely zero thermoelectric effect.
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[00:48:55] <andypugh> Time to sleep.
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[01:30:26] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop you still around?
[01:31:27] <Tom_itx> your face program defaults to the left rear?
[01:31:36] <Tom_itx> you didn't give me an option?
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[01:53:07] <Tom_itx> how can you reverse the MPG direction on one axis?
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[05:57:59] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[06:00:41] <Loetmichel> *brrrr* 22hrs @work. (subtract 2 times 1h break) ... 20h work ant i am fully exhausted. i thing i am getting old and weak :-(
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[07:56:43] <Deejay> moin
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[09:16:22] <someone972> So from what I gather, the motion controller is a separate process from the task and io controllers correct?
[09:22:42] <archivist> all connected together with hal
[09:24:02] <archivist> what are you trying to do
[09:24:48] <someone972> I'm trying to understand how all these pieces work together at this point.
[09:25:05] <someone972> Eventually I'd like to offload the motion controller to a chip over usb
[09:25:45] <archivist> usb is generally silly due to latency issues
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[09:26:57] <someone972> It's just for a cheap diy-machine, so I'm not too concerned about latency
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[09:27:28] <someone972> It's probably going to run pretty slowly as well
[09:28:18] <archivist> steppers require better latency, things need to happen at the right time
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[09:30:34] <someone972> Wouldn't sending the commands from the task process to an implementation of the motion controller on the control chip give plenty good latency for the steppers?
[09:34:28] <archivist> we get one or two people a month thinking they can just shove part in an external controller not realising the amount of work nor the power needed in that controller
[09:34:59] <archivist> just use a beaglebone black as your controller, it fits on there
[09:36:24] <someone972> That's an idea
[09:37:30] <someone972> In the meantime, it would still be useful to know how linuxcnc works
[09:38:29] <someone972> Am I correct in thinking that genhexkins is used for kinematics on a simple 3-axis machine?
[09:38:47] <archivist> the only person I know who has usb in the connection is
https://github.com/araisrobo/linuxcnc
[09:41:07] <Mr_Mayhem> I think a 3 or 4 axis machine uses trivkins. however its spelled.
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[09:45:45] <Mr_Mayhem> I am no expert, but I imagine the motion planner takes in a unit of gcode, and maps all axis movements in time against a stable time base using the accel and decel curves as set earlier. This description is way simplified, but about what I understand so far.
[09:46:20] <archivist> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TrajectoryControl
[09:46:34] <Mr_Mayhem> Thanks.
[09:46:40] <archivist> and follow the link at the page bottom for more detail
[09:47:10] <someone972> Ah, never even found that page!
[09:47:27] <archivist> the look ahead will likely change real soon now
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[09:49:40] <Mr_Mayhem> Wow, cool way to test the boundary conditions of a zillion combinations.
[09:50:36] <Mr_Mayhem> Just write scitzo-move script and compare actial with intended moves, ha that's clever.
[09:58:31] <Mr_Mayhem> I wonder if anyone has rolled their own linear motor coils, etc. I suppose a cnc-based linear motor winding machine would be a neat but quite complex diy project. One could wind one section at a time, and bolt them together. Just a brainstorm for coil rails, magnets-on-shuttle kind of linear motor.
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[10:00:40] <Mr_Mayhem> You'd need a pile of mosfets I suppose, 2 to 4 for each coil? hmm, $$
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[10:03:07] <archivist> look at the devel mailing list for the recent tests and upgrading of the planner
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[10:04:11] <Mr_Mayhem> Ok, that should be interesting to see what they are planning, forgive the pun.
[10:05:31] <Mr_Mayhem> Seriously, I love reading stuff over my head to get exposed to the ideas being discussed, like how they are going to make it more capable or accurate.
[10:05:45] <Mr_Mayhem> And where the challenges lie.
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[10:32:39] <Mr_Mayhem> When I write code, my bugz have bugs.
[10:33:43] <someone972> So when the motion subsystem is referenced, does it mean the trajectory planner, kinmatics, and per-joint controllers?
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[10:37:56] <Mr_Mayhem> I don't know yet. Here is the top down view page I know about:
[10:37:57] <Mr_Mayhem> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/emc2hal.html
[10:40:15] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, and here:
[10:40:16] <Mr_Mayhem> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/code/Code_Notes.html#_architecture_overview
[10:42:35] <Mr_Mayhem> So looks like Trajectory and Kinematics are contained within the motion subsystem, according to the chart.
[10:44:48] <someone972> Ok, good to know
[10:46:22] <Mr_Mayhem> Heh, first time I saw it myself; trying to peer inside also to see what's going on in there.
[10:46:50] <Mr_Mayhem> Crash course in control systems, hehe.
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[11:08:05] <Mr_Mayhem> More of a computer science question: Does a realtime system have to use shared memory and mutexes to be realtime in essence? Does that by defination rule out functional languages like erlang or others? Or are there other ways to go about it which can get by without shared memory or mutexes? Seems like it worked well for telephone switches running thousands of concurrent calls. But maybe not
[11:08:05] <Mr_Mayhem> good enough for reliable timing on motion control?
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[11:09:21] <archivist> timing matters, some languages seem poorly designed for hardware control imo
[11:09:29] <Mr_Mayhem> I mean Erlang ran big switches but maybe is not good for motion?
[11:10:17] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, I bet most ideas flop when hard pressed to have tight fast timing constraints.
[11:10:35] <archivist> a switch is less realtime, the data travelling through it is realtime
[11:11:28] <Mr_Mayhem> Yeah, the control signals are not as high frequency as the pcm signals or mux, right.
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[11:13:40] <Mr_Mayhem> I wonder what figure of merit is used to compare such systems beyond simple models, like more of a topographic model of sorts with multiple variables or phase spaces.
[11:14:40] <Mr_Mayhem> I guess you have the odds of something being late as the most important thing, like a bit error rate almost.
[11:15:53] <skunkworks> http://youtu.be/oUajH5BCOUQ
[11:16:05] <Mr_Mayhem> Reminds me of a geiger counter far from the source with the occasional click.
[11:16:43] <Mr_Mayhem> Except that click is a messed up part or drill bit :-)
[11:19:46] <Mr_Mayhem> Watched the vid. Is the first one multiple line segments, hard to tell. And that would mean the later run is more of a curve fitting thing
[11:19:47] <Mr_Mayhem> ?
[11:21:08] <skunkworks> the current planner has to be able to stop by the end of the next line segment. (the spiral is made up of small line segments) so that limits top speed. The second one has deeper look ahead.
[11:21:42] <archivist> the latency test measures the timing of the basic realtime loops
[11:22:00] <skunkworks> it pretty much gets up to the centripetal acceleration limit.
[11:22:07] <Mr_Mayhem> Very nice. So it can literally see or detect it all and do it as one motion curve?
[11:22:30] <Mr_Mayhem> Or sweep, as it were?
[11:23:03] <skunkworks> well - the way I understand it is he is using circular blends and can keep increasing the velocity with each line segment/blend.
[11:23:28] <skunkworks> it is actually still 'touching' each line segment.
[11:24:52] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, so it is incremental, but because he is blending as he goes, he can build on what he just did and accelerate towards the machines capability.
[11:26:01] <Mr_Mayhem> Maybe that was a poor description, but it seems pretty clever. He hits all the points, but dosen't slow down.
[11:26:20] <skunkworks> yes - that is how I understand it.
[11:26:40] <skunkworks> bbl
[11:26:51] <archivist> look at the "Initial tests of circular arc blending" threads on the dev mailing list
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[11:27:03] <Mr_Mayhem> Makes one wonder how many other jewels are hiding in the curve math, heh.
[11:27:15] <Mr_Mayhem> ok. will do.
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[11:33:26] <Mr_Mayhem> On the real-time nature of telephone digital signals, it was neat to watch a multiplexer break sync lock when slowly turning down the rf power and watching the signal blend into the noise floor on the spec analyzer. It happens all of a sudden, rather than in direct proportion to the signal to noise ratio on the satellite. I.e. it follows the bit error rate curve. I guess that is roughly
[11:33:26] <Mr_Mayhem> equivalent to delayed instructions or steps in a cnc, it starts to shudder or worse.
[11:35:02] <Mr_Mayhem> Muxes I played with had relays so they chattered when re-syncing to the incoming data stream.
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[11:43:50] <Mr_Mayhem> The curve fitting seems like the old problem of squaring the circle, except the other way around, it is trying to circle the square, or polygon in most cases.
[11:44:51] <Mr_Mayhem> Cusa would be proud.
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[11:59:48] <someone972> Well I've had enough poking around for today, time for some sleep. My thanks to everyone who answered my questions and provided insights.
[11:59:58] <someone972> This board is always quite helpful
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[12:19:40] <Tom_itx> http://www.electronicproducts.com/Digital_ICs/Standard_and_Programmable_Logic/LOGi_family_of_FPGA_boards_made_to_interface_with_Raspberry_Pi_Beaglebone_Black_and_Arduino_Due.aspx
[12:20:22] <Mr_Mayhem> saw that. Blends in nicely with what I had been thinking.
[12:20:44] <Mr_Mayhem> It was on Slashdot adn kickstarter, yah.
[12:21:26] <Mr_Mayhem> Oh, what fun that will be for motion control enthusiasts.
[12:21:49] <dgarr> Tom_itx: new for pin hal_manualtoolchange.change_button added to master
[12:22:05] <Tom_itx> oh thanks
[12:22:10] <dgarr> your logs are easier to read, thanks
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[12:22:49] <Tom_itx> same bot as the other 2
[12:22:55] <Tom_itx> they could make the edits
[12:23:15] <Tom_itx> early start here.. later
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[12:43:28] <eric_unterhausen> is there some correspondence between the cute names that debian uses for distributions and the cute names ubuntu uses?
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[12:58:17] <jthornton> LOL
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[13:19:59] <eric_unterhausen> there is a crew of jerks on the ubuntu forums that like to assert that random (often barely working) changes that canonical makes are good things, because change is good
[13:22:52] <archivist> I hate change
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[13:36:44] <eric_unterhausen> I hate change for no reason, I especially hate change if it's not implemented properly
[13:38:35] <eric_unterhausen> I've been trying to figure out if there was a really, really good reason for the grub developers to do what they have done
[13:38:49] <eric_unterhausen> you used to be able to go in, change one file, done
[13:39:17] <eric_unterhausen> the reason why people went to grub over lilo was that it was much simpler, I guess these guys weren't around for that
[13:39:51] <eric_unterhausen> now you have to change 3 files to do anything, one of them through update-grub
[13:40:17] <eric_unterhausen> maybe they should rename update-grub 'lilo'
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[16:18:12] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[16:28:30] <IchGuckLive> Question can a pyvcp checkbutton be set as defold
[16:28:49] <IchGuckLive> so i uncheck it
[16:29:23] <IchGuckLive> or do i need to invert the pin in hal
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[16:51:05] <IchGuckLive> ok i did a not invert
[16:51:23] <IchGuckLive> so name the button off
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[16:51:40] <skunkworks> that is one way of doing it :)
[16:52:05] <skunkworks> I think you can do some of this type of stuff with gladevcp
[16:52:14] <skunkworks> (default buttions)
[16:52:26] <IchGuckLive> i stay with pyvcp as long as i can
[16:53:04] <IchGuckLive> i did get the widget of the turn russion cnc-ckub on the run and understanding the things
[16:53:15] <IchGuckLive> so you can go for a D810 remode
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[16:54:54] <IchGuckLive> ;-) talking on lathe Newbie is on emediat
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[17:22:31] <IchGuckLive> hi flughafen how is it going
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[17:24:24] <moist> is this the pncconf channel?
[17:25:01] <archivist> some use pncconf (not me)
[17:25:33] <flughafen> hey IchGuckLive
[17:25:37] <archivist> but in irc ask the real question
[17:25:39] <flughafen> It's good, yourself?
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[17:30:03] <IchGuckLive> yes the party is on here for xmas already
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[17:56:51] <flughafen> are you having a party IchGuckLive ?
[17:57:42] <IchGuckLive> naibour
[18:01:47] <flughafen> IchGuckLive: do you have a haus?
[18:01:57] <IchGuckLive> yes
[18:01:59] <Deejay> our haus is in the middle of our street
[18:02:01] <IchGuckLive> and a shop
[18:02:07] <Deejay> (house!)
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[19:38:49] <Tom_itx> PCW, i had some really odd behavior with that custom bit file i made
[19:39:10] <Tom_itx> leaving out the B & I channels of one encoder and adding 2 sserial
[19:39:40] <Tom_itx> the encoder count worked ok for a while then it went nuts
[19:40:08] <Tom_itx> then the pendant jog started jogging on multiple axis at the same time
[19:40:18] <Tom_itx> not a desired effect
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[19:41:16] <Tom_itx> i'm gonna go back to a more 'sane' one and try it again. by sane, i mean not leaving out any pins from the funcitons like A B & I on the encoders
[19:45:51] <Jymmm> I need $12 more for free shipping from amazon
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[19:53:07] <cradek> "free"
[19:53:36] <Jymmm> Heh, yeah that
[19:54:28] <Jymmm> cradek: Free, as in UNLIMITED voice/text/data on your cellphone.
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[20:04:22] <ReadError> Jymmm amazon prime!
[20:04:25] <ReadError> its so worth it
[20:04:43] <Jymmm> ReadError: Nah, I dont order THAT much
[20:04:51] <ReadError> Jymmm well you can start
[20:04:55] <ReadError> its super handy
[20:05:04] <ReadError> best investment ive made, ever.
[20:05:17] <ReadError> (well dogecoin is first, amazon prime, 2nd)
[20:05:25] <Jymmm> ReadError: Great, Insert *YOUR* valid credit card here --> [ ]
[20:05:37] <ReadError> do they accept dogecoin?
[20:05:44] <ReadError> you know you get a free month, right? :)
[20:05:50] <ReadError> and you can literally keep doing that
[20:05:57] <ReadError> guy has done that for years
[20:06:19] <Jymmm> multiple accounts?
[20:06:35] <ReadError> i would have to ask
[20:06:51] <ReadError> but i think you cancel and just start another trial on the same account
[20:08:10] <Jymmm> Ah, heh
[20:08:58] <Jymmm> ReadError: It's easier to just add $35 order, plus keeps the spending in check.
[20:09:17] <ReadError> i would say the opposite
[20:09:28] <ReadError> i needed 2 flat cat6 cables
[20:09:43] <ReadError> $5+$5 -> done
[20:09:44] <Jymmm> That's an oxymoron
[20:09:50] <ReadError> didnt pay a dime for shipping
[20:09:55] <ReadError> got them the next day
[20:10:52] <Jymmm> Part of the CAT6 specs is they way they are constructed to prevent crosstalk, so saying a "flat ethernet cable" is CAT6 doesnt make sense.
[20:12:22] <ReadError> well yea, but i needed sheilded
[20:12:28] <ReadError> to run analog video
[20:12:34] <ReadError> so crosstalk isnt a hug deal
[20:12:44] <ReadError> they move and flex better
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[20:18:36] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: anyways one can desing a flat cable that meets or exceeds Cat6 specs
[20:19:04] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Not for $6 =)
[20:19:37] <Loetmichel> i had some "belden multimedia cable" that was formed like a banana-> more or less flat (althoug only cat5E) and good for Gbit ethernet and about 0,35 eur per meter
[20:20:58] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: I was commenting on the CAT6 specifically.
[20:21:02] <Loetmichel> inside were the 4 foil shielded pairs beseide each other. it fits perfectly to an RJ45 plug
[20:21:25] <Loetmichel> i wouldn be surprised if belden has the cable upgraded to cat6
[20:21:52] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: But CAT6 isn't just the cable, it's the connectors too (as per spec).
[20:21:55] <Loetmichel> the time i bougt that 100ft drum there was no cat6 spec ;-)
[20:22:12] <Loetmichel> if you say so.
[20:23:06] <Loetmichel> i dont have enough spre money to buy these specs. in germany anything DIN/IEE related has to be bought. no "open source" there. and no small prices either. :(
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[20:57:47] <PCW> Tom_itx: leaving out I/O pins can not possibly cause a problem like you see
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[21:02:48] <PCW> if your MPGs are on the 7I84 make sure you have the MPG
[21:02:50] <PCW> ground pin connected to the field power ground _AT_ the 7I84
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[21:09:22] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx, I just drilled and tapped some holes with the mill G code generator :)
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[21:38:36] <asah> So... playing with the glass scales off my maho.
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[21:39:05] <asah> I only have three wires coming out of the connector, two of them give me pulses, the other does not.
[21:39:57] <cradek> if there's an index equivalent it might be very short, or rare
[21:40:11] <cradek> recommend setting your scope to trigger on it
[21:40:19] <asah> I am going into a 7i52 which is expecting differential pairs for the A and B channels. what should I feed QA0/ if I am going to feed QA0 one of the signals
[21:40:48] <cradek> does it have jumpers for disabling differential?
[21:40:50] <asah> the "silent" wire is marked as "marker" on the schematics
[21:41:00] <cradek> yeah that's surely index
[21:41:03] <asah> which could be a home pulse.
[21:41:06] <asah> right.
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[21:41:21] <asah> ok. haven't moved it all the way to home yet to check it.
[21:41:22] <cradek> how are you monitoring that?
[21:41:42] <asah> but on the subject of differential signaling, what is going to be the cleanest signal?
[21:41:52] <asah> (I am not heavy electronics guy)
[21:41:58] <asah> have an oscilloscope
[21:42:04] <cradek> differential is very much more noiseproof
[21:42:08] <asah> right.
[21:42:15] <cradek> that's the point of it - common-mode noise gets ignored
[21:42:18] <asah> I see much noise on the lines.
[21:42:31] <cradek> trigger on the index line and I bet you'll see it
[21:42:34] <asah> but I don't have differential signals coming out of the encoder
[21:43:13] <asah> these are phillips glass scales going into an exe pulse shaper board.
[21:43:14] <cradek> you have to either generate them or use input hardware that doesn't do differential. some of the mesa hardware is jumper-selectable.
[21:43:32] <asah> I am getting signal out of the exe board.
[21:44:24] <asah> so I would want TTL basically.
[21:44:41] <cradek> yes sounds like
[21:44:47] <asah> ah... I should rtfm.
[21:44:49] <asah> its in there.
[21:44:52] <cradek> or better, add the line drivers
[21:45:04] <cradek> haha
[21:45:46] <asah> thanks!
[21:46:00] <cradek> welcome
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[22:00:06] <asah> ok, have it hooked up and am jogging.
[22:00:13] <asah> into the 7i52.
[22:00:34] <asah> the encoder count increments... YAY! but only in the forward direction.
[22:00:56] <cradek> BOO!
[22:01:05] <asah> when I go backwards I am not getting any incrementation
[22:01:10] <cradek> that's really weird
[22:01:11] <asah> or decrementation.
[22:01:17] <asah> just stays.
[22:01:39] <asah> yes.
[22:01:46] <cradek> I struggle to see how that could be a wiring problem. does the quadrature look reasonable on your real scope?
[22:01:54] <cradek> oh I've gotta run, hope you figure it out
[22:02:35] <asah> it is not really clean quadrature.
[22:02:40] <asah> thanks for the help. best!
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[22:11:31] <Deejay> gn8
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[22:56:01] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, the MPG is still on the 7i47
[22:56:41] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure what was causing the erratic behavior
[22:57:18] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, i tried the face generator but i forgot my 1" face mill won't reach the table in the current configuration
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[23:00:25] <Tom_itx> happy with the new cutters so far though:
http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/pendant/engrave1.jpg
[23:05:25] <Loetmichel> you could have put a scale in the pic
[23:05:30] <Loetmichel> bow big is that?
[23:05:49] <Loetmichel> how
[23:05:52] <Tom_itx> the plate is 3 x 6"
[23:06:06] <Tom_itx> approx
[23:06:15] <Loetmichel> nice
[23:06:41] <Loetmichel> i made something in lexan a while ago, turned out nice also
[23:06:45] <Tom_itx> i wanted to try the engraving bits so i did that ahead of the milling
[23:07:18] <Loetmichel> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx3sT3kQV-8
[23:07:43] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14247&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[23:07:54] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=14250&g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[23:08:36] <Loetmichel> that are M3 screws on the sides
[23:09:29] <Tom_itx> what did you use for the lettering?
[23:09:32] <Tom_itx> to generate it?
[23:11:55] <Loetmichel> normal fonts in corelDraw and then radius correction until it was just a double line instead of a rectangle.
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[23:12:19] <Loetmichel> fun fact: comic sans works best for this ;-)
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[23:13:08] <Loetmichel> i think i used OCR-A for the company lettering
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[23:14:11] <Tom_itx> my cad cam has limited fonts but scale pretty easy
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[23:22:39] <nlancaster> howdy all!
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