#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-09-26

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[00:18:29] <jp_mill> ye haw. got the mill all wired up and running. just a few things to clean up.
[00:20:27] <jp_mill> just need to figure out how to stop an axis from accelerating when using an MPG any ideas?
[00:21:05] <andypugh> "Kim-Niklas Antin in Finland, founder of the organisation and self-confessed bike enthusiast" That's pretty Finnish, admitting, when pressed, to quite like bicycles.
[00:22:40] <andypugh> And those lugs need to taper down to nothing in a stylish way :-)
[00:24:09] <jp_mill> andypugh: any ideas on how to get an axis to stop moving when some one rapidly winds on it and then lets go?
[00:26:26] <jp_mill> most traditional controls behave like that but right now if i have my mpg set to .100 increment and give it 3 quick turns it will move the axis = the 3 full turns regardless if its not turning
[00:27:47] <andypugh> Today was the open day at the RPD section at work. They have some nice toys. My favourite is the sand mould printing machine, that can cast cylinder heads from a CAD model.
[00:28:14] <andypugh> jp_mill: That's what you asked for...
[00:28:44] <andypugh> An MPG is _meant_ to move exactly as far as asked.
[00:30:04] <andypugh> It is possible to configure it for velocity-mode jogging, but I think you will find that to be equally unacceptable at low speeds.
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[00:30:25] <jp_mill> i understand that but that behaviour is not typical of a traditional control. i've worked on controls where as soon as the mpg stops rotating so does the axis regardles of input counts
[00:30:59] <andypugh> That would be a HAL change, instead of wiring eoncoder position to wheel-counts, wire encoder-velocity to jog-speed.
[00:31:23] <jp_mill> i'll try that
[00:33:43] <andypugh> Problem 1: When is it stopped rather than moving slowly? (this is probably handled by the encoder timeout parameter I think I have seen). You can maybe wire the jog-enable pin via a speed detector in HAL. That ought to work.
[00:41:02] <jp_mill> Hmm wont work a slow rotation velocity stays a zero
[00:46:00] <andypugh> Yeah, thought it might.
[00:46:18] <jp_mill> yeah tried to lower the timeout but no dice
[00:46:25] <andypugh> I _think_ that the minimum velocity is a hal param
[00:46:38] <jp_mill> oh well will just have to deal with it
[00:47:50] <andypugh> There will be a way to get what you want in HAL. (you can do almost anything in HAL)
[00:49:06] <andypugh> ddt on counts (or probably position, to be a float) into a oneshot that disables the jog-enable via an and2. Or something like that.
[00:49:10] <jp_mill> true just how bad do i need it
[00:49:48] <jp_mill> is oneshot a function in hal?
[00:50:00] <andypugh> You can franticallt wind backwards when you see you have over-done it. That works :-) (don't ask me how I know)
[00:50:18] <andypugh> Yes, oneshot is a HAL function)
[00:50:54] <jp_mill> lol yeah i now that one works too (Dont ask that cutter how i know)
[00:54:02] <andypugh> Not directly related but: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/ilowpass.9.html can make a jogwheel a lot nicer.
[00:54:04] <jp_mill> is there a grey decode function in hal?
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[00:56:00] <andypugh> yes, and no on the Gray code. The serial encoder module I pushed to master last week can handle gray-code. But there is no standalone component.
[00:56:18] <andypugh> it would be largely trivial to make one.
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[00:56:46] <andypugh> I think it would be a 15-line .comp file
[00:57:01] <jp_mill> yeah i guess i should learn how to do that one day
[00:57:24] <andypugh> How badly do you want it?
[00:57:40] <andypugh> I was going to sleep :-)
[00:58:13] <jp_mill> just for my axis selector i should figure out first if it's grey or binary
[00:59:06] <jp_mill> havent looked at it yet but it came of a Japanese mill most of the i thought were grey code
[01:02:21] <jp_mill> although that may not matter considering its only 4 positions
[01:02:33] <uw> whats cheapest place to ge tballscrews
[01:02:43] <jp_mill> china
[01:03:20] <uw> flying to china, getting ball screws and returning isn't the cheapest place
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[01:04:55] <andypugh> Zapp are pretty cheap. But in the UK.
[01:05:18] <uw> Zapp eh?
[01:05:43] <andypugh> Much Cheapness: http://www.zappautomation.co.uk/en/63-chinese-brand-ballnuts
[01:06:11] <andypugh> They do have more expensive ranges.
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[01:07:32] <andypugh> But £25 for a 16mm ballnut + £4 per 100mm of screw is pretty cheap.
[01:10:00] <jp_mill> uw: what size screws
[01:10:14] <jp_mill> are rolled ok?
[01:11:55] <uw> rolled would be ok, also ball nuts
[01:12:00] <uw> 5/8" pref
[01:13:18] <andypugh> jp_mill: http://pastebin.com/66Jh1aBc is a 15 line gray2pin component.
[01:13:31] <jp_mill> 5/8 thompson rolled is pretty cheap from mcmaster
[01:13:58] <andypugh> save as gray2bin.comp, comp --install gray2bin.comp, job done. Other than me not having tested it at all.
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[01:16:30] <uw> mcmaster has something cheap?
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[01:22:02] <jp_mill> yeah go figure 5/8 for some reason is way cheaper than everything else
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[01:24:49] <jp_mill> andypugh: thanks!
[01:25:28] <andypugh> jp_mill: it is very likely to not work :-)
[01:26:04] <jp_mill> lol well at least i can try to figure out how to install it
[01:26:46] <jp_mill> not very linux savvy
[01:27:56] <spack> ahoy
[01:28:07] <spack> 20:16:30 uw : mcmaster has something cheap?
[01:28:08] <spack> lol
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[01:30:49] <andypugh> jp_mill: You will probably need to add linuxcnc-dev. It _should_ be in the package manager
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[01:34:52] <jp_mill> ok got it, but but it wont compile
[01:35:50] <uw> wow that price actually is reasonable...
[01:37:16] <uw> ohhh wait, thats per foot
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[01:39:15] <jp_mill> andypugh: got the comp to install. Thanks!!
[01:39:57] <andypugh> That's an unusually good start :-)
[01:40:11] <jp_mill> uw: from what i remember 2ft of 5/8 was like $20
[01:40:35] <jp_mill> the nut was $50-70
[01:40:48] <jp_mill> but it was rolled screw
[01:41:29] <jp_mill> andypugh: what languge is comp? C#?
[01:42:03] <andypugh> When did you last want holes 12" apart to be +/- .005"?
[01:42:26] <jdh> I recently paid $118 for a 950mm 20mm screw, ballnut, and two bearing blocks of typical chinese quality.
[01:42:41] <andypugh> jp_mill: Comp is a set of special macros, then pure C after the ;;
[01:43:31] <andypugh> So, before the ;; you define the documentation and hal pins, and after the ;; you "do C" to them.
[01:44:11] <andypugh> Docs are here, it's pretty darned useful. http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal/comp.html#code:simple-comp-example
[01:44:27] <jp_mill> ah. can you use python at all?
[01:44:38] <andypugh> Not in real-time code
[01:44:51] <jp_mill> so just user comps?
[01:44:56] <andypugh> Yes
[01:45:07] <jp_mill> ah ok
[01:45:50] <andypugh> HAL components are Linux Kernel Modules, that pretty much mandates C.
[01:46:32] <andypugh> Normally writing kernel modules is brainiac stuff, comp makes is really quite easy.
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[01:48:10] <jp_mill> yeah i can see how useful it would be to make functions you would tend to try to use ladder for as well
[01:48:34] <andypugh> If that module works as advertised then I will push it to the next release.
[01:49:29] <jp_mill> so just addf in hal and load it, then use it correct
[01:49:53] <andypugh> In theory.
[01:51:25] <jp_mill> well it loaded ok
[01:51:57] <jp_mill> and i can see the in & out pins in hal config
[01:52:07] <andypugh> It doesn't seem to work rigt
[01:53:10] <andypugh> 0==0 1==0 4==0 (but 8==3 and 2==1)
[01:54:54] <jp_mill> havent got that far yet
[01:56:03] <uw> jp_mill, have you used both and would you say the ground screw is much better?
[01:56:12] <jp_mill> can i change the code in the comp and reinstall over it?
[01:56:18] <andypugh> http://pastebin.com/TEizC70P
[01:56:21] <uw> I'm thinking of converting a machine and really anything will be better than what i have now
[01:56:45] <jp_mill> ground is always better. but what is the application?
[01:56:53] <andypugh> jp_mill: Yes, alter the code then comp --install again
[01:57:15] <jp_mill> ok will have to break out my old C books
[01:58:34] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gray_code#Converting_to_and_from_Gray_code
[01:58:42] <uw> jp_mill, it's a RF-45 mill drill
[01:59:34] <jp_mill> ah ok the downside of rolled is usualy lead error per foot and backlash due to lack of pre-loaded nuts
[02:00:19] <jp_mill> you can make your own preloaded nuts but the cost is higher than buying asian ground screws
[02:00:41] <uw> oh i see
[02:00:44] <uw> glad i asked
[02:01:11] <uw> i have been reading about this and i only thought the only difference was ground units were typically hardened
[02:01:16] <uw> where the rolled ones not?
[02:01:38] <jp_mill> you really can't beat the cost of the import stuff sad to say especially if your not depending on it every day to make a living
[02:02:12] <uw> i didnt know it was a matter of the ballscrews
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[02:02:20] <spack> balls
[02:02:22] <uw> yea i'm just doing it for hobby
[02:02:34] <spack> ballscrews are awesome
[02:02:38] <andypugh> jp_mill: I see where it went wrong, try this version: http://pastebin.com/apLYUKHb
[02:03:30] <roycroft> ball screws are ball screws :)
[02:03:35] <roycroft> they're not always awesome
[02:03:57] <spack> they're always pretty awesome :)
[02:04:12] <spack> think about the technology that went into even the shittiest of ballscrews
[02:04:13] <roycroft> for cnc sure
[02:04:28] <roycroft> for manual milling they can be "challenging"
[02:04:37] <andypugh> rolled are nor good on lead error per foot, as has been said. I am not sure that has _ever_ mattered for anything I have made.
[02:04:42] <roycroft> like walking on ball bearings
[02:05:29] <jp_mill> lead error per foot can also be fixed in linuxcnc
[02:05:45] <andypugh> In manual machinign the push-back efficiency would be really strange.
[02:05:56] <roycroft> acme screws can be ground very accurately
[02:06:00] <roycroft> and ball screws rolled poorly
[02:06:01] <Tom_itx> reading from earlier, andypugh where would those 'fitted' worm gears be used?
[02:06:12] <Tom_itx> looked interesting
[02:06:14] <roycroft> making absolute statements is usually not very productive
[02:06:33] <andypugh> The ball ones or the ordinary globoidal ones?
[02:06:42] <Tom_itx> globoidal
[02:06:48] <andypugh> High loads.
[02:07:10] <andypugh> There is a lot more metal in contact.
[02:07:22] <Tom_itx> the radius would have to match the mating gear diameter
[02:07:33] <jp_mill> like anything with scres regardless of form you get what you pay for
[02:07:43] <jp_mill> screws^
[02:07:55] <uw> i guess thats true
[02:08:17] <uw> however what i'm really trying to avoid is paying a premium for the same thing i get cheaper elsewhere
[02:08:43] <uw> viewing these items as a commodity
[02:08:55] <andypugh> http://www.conedrive.com/Products/Power-Transmission-Products/double-enveloping-technology.php
[02:09:02] <uw> (in the seperate classes of rolled vs ground)
[02:09:52] <andypugh> I have always used the cheapest screws I could find at the time. So far I have not allocated any problems to this choice.
[02:10:02] <Tom_itx> are you gonna try to machine one?
[02:11:17] <uw> thanks andypugh
[02:11:21] <uw> good info
[02:11:22] <andypugh> The exception is that I did spend a lot of money on a preloaded 16mm screw for the Y of my mill, to replace the 12mm, and then found that the ball nut had external tubes not shown in the diagram, and that it probably won't fit.
[02:11:31] <uw> Tom_itx, i will probably have to
[02:11:49] <uw> well, yes. either I will or i will have someone else rather
[02:12:22] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I was awake all last night figuring out how to machine a ball-worm that was globoidal.
[02:12:32] <Tom_itx> and?
[02:12:36] <jp_mill> andypugh: thanks for the impromptu tutorial. Later!
[02:13:03] <andypugh> I have two main life-skills. Insomnia and alcohol tolerance. Neither are particularly valued by modern society.
[02:13:12] <spack> lol
[02:13:24] <spack> andypugh: you should move to asia
[02:13:38] <uw> actually even a rolled screw will probably be worlds better than what i have. the mill in stock form has the worst back lash i've ever seen in a machine. probably around 1/8"-3/16"
[02:13:39] <spack> korea in particular
[02:13:47] <roycroft> i'm an avid homebrewer, andypugh
[02:14:01] <roycroft> i greatlly appreciate the latter skill
[02:14:05] <roycroft> greatly, even
[02:14:14] <spack> my next brewing creation:
[02:14:18] <spack> a sour cider
[02:14:43] <andypugh> I just finished my first ever batch of homebrew wine. I might try one of the quirky "Vimto" or "Ribena" brews next.
[02:14:47] <spack> not sure if it will have lactobacillis or brettanomyyces
[02:15:32] <roycroft> if you use a good cider apple, or a good blend, you'll find it sour enough on its own
[02:15:41] <roycroft> apple contain lots of malic acid
[02:15:44] <spack> nah
[02:15:52] <spack> i've made regular ciders and they never come out very sour
[02:15:58] <spack> i'm talking about geuze levels of sourness
[02:16:18] <roycroft> and if you wait long enough, the cider will undergo a secondary malic-lactic acid ferment
[02:16:29] <roycroft> that occurs about six months after primary fermenation
[02:16:35] <andypugh> A friend and I bought a pint of dry cider each at the Great Dorset Steam Fair. It was quite nice, but _so_ dry we had to find a pint of beer almost immediatley.
[02:16:36] <spack> i have some cider that's probably been in the bottle for 2 years right now
[02:16:38] <roycroft> and assumes that you did a natural ferment
[02:17:03] <roycroft> cider tends to get that way unless you take measures to either halt fermentation or backsweeten it
[02:17:24] <spack> yeah, i like it that way though
[02:17:26] <spack> dry
[02:17:28] <roycroft> mine usually ferment down to about 0.096 or so
[02:17:36] <roycroft> dry as the sahara desert
[02:18:02] <roycroft> we're only a few weeks away from cider apples
[02:18:02] <spack> nomnom
[02:18:07] <spack> yeah
[02:18:16] <roycroft> i may be pressing 200L of cider this year
[02:18:20] <spack> awesome
[02:18:22] <roycroft> i have an in at a local orchard
[02:18:25] <spack> we're going to an orchard this weekend
[02:18:26] <andypugh> I can see it as a hobby, but I have decided that the stuff I can buy in the supermarket is nicer, and not a lot more expensive.
[02:18:27] <roycroft> who have a big hydraulic press :)
[02:18:40] <roycroft> i haven't mastered cider yet, andypugh
[02:18:47] <Tom_itx> andypugh, where's the adventure in that?
[02:18:47] <andypugh> Good apple year over here.
[02:18:58] <roycroft> i do make much better beer than is commonly available commercially, though
[02:19:03] <roycroft> and at about 1/4 the cost
[02:19:05] <andypugh> Last year there were none. Literally none.
[02:19:17] <roycroft> and i live in the craft beer mecca of the us
[02:19:17] <spack> last year we had no cherries
[02:19:24] <roycroft> poor apple set here this year
[02:19:40] <roycroft> oddly, though, north of here, in washington state, they're having a record crop
[02:19:48] <andypugh> I am riding my pushbike thorugh piles of apples this year.
[02:19:58] <roycroft> scrumpy material!
[02:19:59] <spack> ah, you live in rogueland
[02:20:07] <spack> The State of Rogue
[02:20:08] <roycroft> rogue is crap
[02:20:16] <andypugh> (lots of apples at the side of the road, from discarded cores)
[02:20:17] <spack> comes from your state
[02:20:21] <roycroft> i know
[02:20:27] <roycroft> my brew club meets at a local rogue alehouse
[02:20:29] <roycroft> i dispise it
[02:20:31] <spack> tell them to make better beer
[02:20:35] <roycroft> the beer is pedestrian at best
[02:20:39] <roycroft> and they treat their workers horribly
[02:20:42] <spack> i haven't had much of it
[02:20:46] <roycroft> i will not buy their beer under any circumstances
[02:20:58] <roycroft> i wish my brew club would find a new home
[02:21:06] <spack> doesn't seem hard..?
[02:21:26] <roycroft> they're not interested
[02:21:28] <roycroft> so it's hard
[02:21:46] <andypugh> Last year in the UK we had an early spring, followed by a late hard frost. The fruit trees flowered early, and the seed got killed.
[02:22:21] <spack> yeah, that happens sometimes
[02:22:40] <spack> seems like it happens every couple years in some part of the US with some crop or another
[02:22:57] <spack> i think we had no cherries last year because it was too dry and no blueberries for that reason
[02:23:12] <spack> and then this year, it's flooding
[02:23:18] <andypugh> There is one roadside tree that interests me. It's very tall, but holds the fruit until december. Long after the leaves have gone. I have never tasted the fruit, though.
[02:23:28] <spack> what sort of fruit?
[02:23:34] <andypugh> Apple
[02:24:24] <andypugh> Given that every natural apple tree is as unique as a person, maybe there is a market niche for it.
[02:24:33] <spack> when i was a kid i loved to eat the tiny crabapples from the side of the road
[02:24:54] <spack> yeah, you should graft that onto something
[02:25:23] <andypugh> Yeah, it somewhat bothers me that there is a load of fruit to be picked, but nobody does, they buy from the supermarket instead. And this includes me.
[02:25:57] <Tom_itx> when we had orchards around here we'd go pick fresh
[02:26:18] <andypugh> As a kid my mum had us put all the time picking blackberries and bilberries for jam.
[02:26:26] <Tom_itx> mostly peaches
[02:27:37] <Tom_itx> nothing quite like a cobbler with fresh peaches
[02:28:12] <spack> i have no idea what a bilberry is
[02:28:30] <andypugh> Bilberries are far tastier than blueberries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilberry
[02:28:37] <spack> i didn't know what most berries were until i moved to europe and had a bunch of non-native english speakers teach me the english names of them all
[02:28:50] <spack> i knew about blueberries and blackberries and strawberries, that's it
[02:29:18] <Tom_itx> there's a place here that makes elderberry wine
[02:30:28] <spack> i still don't know what an elderberry is
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[02:30:38] <spack> i learned about cloudberries and currants
[02:30:42] <Tom_itx> it's got medicinal properties
[02:30:54] <spack> all i know about elderberries is that your mother smells of htem
[02:30:57] <spack> *them
[02:31:01] <spack> ;D
[02:31:03] <andypugh> spack: You had never seen Raspberries? We name computers after them!
[02:31:15] <spack> oh, i knew about those too :)
[02:31:53] <andypugh> Elderberry wine is a well-known brew, you should try making some.
[02:32:07] <spack> (the elderberry thing was a monty python reference btw :P )
[02:32:16] <spack> didn't mean to offend anyone's mother
[02:32:19] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sambucus
[02:32:26] <spack> i'm not sure where to get elderberries to make such a brew from
[02:32:43] <Tom_itx> this place grows their own
[02:32:51] <andypugh> Maybe an elder?
[02:33:11] <roycroft> elderberries grow wild thoroughout the uk, much of europe, and most of north america
[02:33:24] * roycroft is planting some elder bushes this fall
[02:33:31] <roycroft> elderflower cider is aweseome
[02:33:32] <spack> i've seen berries like that
[02:33:44] <spack> but i'm not totally sure how to distinguish them from similar berries
[02:33:55] <roycroft> i'm making rowan after we have our first frost
[02:33:58] <andypugh> If you have seen them, then they are most likely elderberries.
[02:34:06] <roycroft> which is wine made with mountain ash berries
[02:34:32] <spack> nice
[02:34:32] <roycroft> king salmon just started in the columbia river
[02:34:36] <roycroft> i'm grilling some tonight
[02:34:41] * spack looks up mountain ash berries
[02:34:48] <roycroft> and i'm making a raspberry compote to go with it
[02:34:55] <roycroft> with raspberries from my garden
[02:35:11] <andypugh> Belladonna wine might not be a great plan.
[02:35:12] <roycroft> we have the orange ones here
[02:35:16] <spack> haha
[02:35:34] <spack> now the daturas and brugmansias, i can identify... :)
[02:36:02] <roycroft> my signature brew is a scottish 80/ ale
[02:36:09] <roycroft> i've won awards with it
[02:36:24] <roycroft> i'm working on a book on gruit ales
[02:36:38] <roycroft> it will be some years hence before that is done
[02:36:45] <roycroft> i'm growing my own herbs for the gruits
[02:37:01] <roycroft> and most of them are in their first year - it's a fairly new project
[02:37:09] <roycroft> i'll need a few years to test and refine the recipes
[02:37:21] <spack> scottish ales are some of my favorites
[02:37:22] <andypugh> Actually, given a careful chemical analysis it is possible that Deadly Nghtshade wine might be perfectly safe, if the toxins ferment rather than killing the yeast. That might be quite an interesting brew.
[02:37:23] <roycroft> most of our knowledge of gruits has been lost or was never recorded
[02:37:50] <spack> scottish ales and sours
[02:37:56] <andypugh> roycroft: Ever tried a heather ale?
[02:38:04] <roycroft> yes, i brew heather ale a couple times a year
[02:38:11] <roycroft> i just put one on tap, as matter of fact
[02:38:24] <roycroft> it's lovely stuff
[02:38:35] <roycroft> and i use no hops in it
[02:38:46] <spack> what do you think of dandelion wine?
[02:38:52] <roycroft> just heather, bog myrtle (myrica gale), and yarrow for bittering
[02:39:10] <roycroft> i think it's a lot of work digging up and drying out the dandelion roots, so i've never made it
[02:39:17] <spack> ever tried it?
[02:39:23] <roycroft> not that i recall
[02:39:26] <spack> i'm interested
[02:39:46] <andypugh> I have not tried dandelion wine (I have been very drunk on Fraoch, though, with no morning ill effects)
[02:39:49] <roycroft> andypugh: have you had leann fraoch, from williams bros. ?
[02:40:31] <roycroft> when i was designing my heather ale i exchanged a few emails with bruce williams, who gave me some good pointers on making it well
[02:40:47] <roycroft> mine is rather different from theirs, but still quite tasty
[02:41:01] <roycroft> i use a 70/ malt base, and use the heather and other herbs in lieu of hops
[02:41:24] <spack> ever had a sahti?
[02:41:33] <roycroft> spack: a couple years ago i made a wee heavy, planning on serving it on burns night last
[02:41:39] <roycroft> but it got stuck at 1.034
[02:41:50] <roycroft> i tried for months to get it fermenting again
[02:42:00] <roycroft> finally i pitched some brett last october
[02:42:07] <roycroft> it's slowly fermenting down now
[02:42:12] <spack> wow
[02:42:14] <roycroft> and turning into a nice wee funky
[02:42:20] <spack> throwing in some brett is never a bad idea
[02:42:21] <roycroft> and no, i've not had sahti
[02:42:22] <andypugh> roycroft: Yes, I actually drank far too much after falling in to conversation with the brewery rep one night. In a great pub, the Ancient Unicorn in Bowes: http://www.hauntedrooms.co.uk/ancient-unicorn-inn-co-durham
[02:42:22] <spack> :)
[02:42:32] <roycroft> sahti does not keep well
[02:42:40] <roycroft> but funny you should mention it
[02:42:55] <roycroft> i have an aspen tree that was growing right next to my house, and was leaning precariously
[02:43:11] <roycroft> i cut it, and hollowed out the main trunk
[02:43:23] <roycroft> next year, when that's nice and dry, i'm going to make sahti the traditional way
[02:43:38] <roycroft> lining the hollowed out trunk with juniper branches, and using that to lauter the mash
[02:43:53] <spack> nice
[02:43:54] <roycroft> i have a source for finnish baking yeast, which is what is used for traditional sahti
[02:44:06] <andypugh> 'tis entirely possible that the guy in the kilt who got me drunk was Bruce Willliams.
[02:44:28] <roycroft> that looks like a good place to drink fraoch, andypugh :)
[02:44:37] <roycroft> speaking of which
[02:44:45] <roycroft> i *do* wear a kilt when i brew scottish ale
[02:44:50] <spack> hehe
[02:44:59] <roycroft> it's just the right thing to do
[02:45:25] <roycroft> and since i've won awards with mine, it's difficult to argue otherwise :)
[02:45:39] <andypugh> I spent last weekend here: http://www.fotolibra.com/gallery/659330/beck-hall-malham/
[02:45:59] <roycroft> nice
[02:46:13] <andypugh> It's truly lovely.
[02:46:20] <spack> i live pretty close to 3 floyds
[02:46:22] <roycroft> when i get further along with my book i intend to spend a month or so doing research in scotland
[02:46:31] <spack> they make a pretty damn good scottish ale
[02:46:40] <roycroft> i've not had theirs
[02:46:47] <andypugh> Look at that bridge (only access to the hotel) :-)
[02:46:55] <spack> they don't distribute that far west i guess
[02:47:05] <roycroft> nice, andypugh
[02:47:09] <spack> :)
[02:47:28] <roycroft> do you make beer, spack?
[02:48:07] <andypugh> Tripadvisor gives them bad reviews because the access is bad, I see that as a great feature. Those are slabs of stone making the spans, by the way.
[02:48:21] <spack> yeah, not as often as i'd like though
[02:48:30] <spack> i've been meaning to get started on an oatmeal stout for months
[02:48:46] <roycroft> all grain or extract?
[02:49:00] <andypugh> And you _can_ push a wheelchair through the ford, if you don't mind getting wet, so what's the problem?
[02:49:06] <roycroft> yes, i didn't think they were concrete, andypugh
[02:49:12] <roycroft> they look like real slabs of stone
[02:49:27] <spack> you can also push a wheel chair over a narrow bridge
[02:49:33] <roycroft> if you brew all grain, i'll tell you the secret to making proper scottish ale
[02:49:39] <roycroft> do *NOT* use crystal malt at all
[02:49:40] <roycroft> no no no
[02:49:43] <roycroft> that is for english beers
[02:49:53] <andypugh> So, Sahti? Sounds Finnish?
[02:49:58] <spack> indeed
[02:50:10] <roycroft> you take (for a 19L batch) 4L of first runnings, and reduce them to 1L
[02:50:12] <spack> no niin
[02:50:15] <roycroft> and add that back to the boil
[02:50:18] <roycroft> it is, andypugh
[02:50:51] <andypugh> I spend 5% of my life in Finland. What have I missed?
[02:50:55] <spack> lol
[02:51:08] <roycroft> my scottish ale recipe is simple - 98.5% golden promise (i'm using a 50/50 blend of thos. fawcett and simpson's currently), and 1.5% roasted barley
[02:51:08] <spack> i spent 10% of my life there :)
[02:51:16] <roycroft> never, EVER put peated malt in a scottish ale
[02:51:32] <roycroft> you can get the smokey notes by using the proper yeast and the proper fermentation profile
[02:51:45] <roycroft> and on that note, i'm off to the barbie
[02:51:50] <spack> thanks roycroft
[02:51:55] <spack> i'll hit you up when i try to make one
[02:51:58] <roycroft> compote is done, and salmon and asparagus need to go on the grill :)
[02:51:58] <spack> which i should
[02:52:02] <roycroft> feel free to do so
[02:52:05] <roycroft> i'm happy to help
[02:52:09] <spack> danke
[02:52:12] <roycroft> it's such an awesome beer style
[02:52:12] <andypugh> Yeah, it's an interesting brew
[02:52:52] <andypugh> I tend to like my beers darker, and maltier, but Heather is a nice change.
[02:53:40] <spack> andypugh: puhutks sä suomea?
[02:54:22] <andypugh> I think the very best pint I ever had was a Flowers. So good we drank another 8 before the pub shut, an hour later. It was Perfect.
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[02:54:46] <spack> i've never had a heather
[02:55:26] <andypugh> spack: Hey, don't go thinking I have learned any of the language (much to my shame). I only work with british, germans and americans when I am there.
[02:55:35] <spack> heh
[02:55:39] <spack> you were in helsinki?
[02:55:49] <andypugh> Rovaniemi
[02:56:02] <spack> what kind of work happens in rovaniemi? :O
[02:56:10] <andypugh> 2 weeks every year
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[02:56:43] <andypugh> http://www.arctictesting.fi
[02:56:55] <spack> i spent 3 years in jyväskylä
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[02:58:06] <andypugh> jyväskylä looks very flat and very moist. Mosquitos?
[02:58:42] <spack> i didn't notice many mosquitos, but i also spent years in florida and i think i developed some kind of repellant towards them because i don't notice them anywhere i go anymore
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[02:59:02] <spack> it's flat in that the highest and lowest points are probably within 100' of each other
[02:59:11] <spack> but there are lots of ups and downs and cliffs
[02:59:17] <spack> there was a lot of glacial activity
[02:59:40] <spack> there's also a ridge in the center of town
[02:59:53] <spack> i used to run up it when i couldn't sleep
[02:59:58] <spack> and i'd be dead by the top
[03:01:29] <tjtr33> CaptHindsight, JauchSchmider trunnions are nice ( owned by Hman now ) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijzmi_-AMo8
[03:01:51] <spack> if you turn on the terrain feature in google maps you can see what i mean
[03:02:02] <spack> andypugh: what kind of testing do you do there?
[03:03:48] <andypugh> I was brought up round here: http://goo.gl/maps/pTqvy The photo flattens it. You will note that the footpath has a hand-rail. The curvy pale fence is my sister's house. Her cellar is largely above-ground on the lower side, and in fact she sould fit a sub-cellar under the garden.
[03:04:42] <andypugh> It's cobbled because Tarmac falls off ;_0
[03:05:40] <spack> i like how it's unsuitable for motor vehicles
[03:05:44] <spack> but there is a car going down it :)
[03:05:52] <andypugh> spack: We mainly test that the cars still start and drive OK.
[03:06:59] <andypugh> Down the hill is OK. Few attempt up. I used to cycle up, but only as a chalenge and a chance to use the lowest gear. (You have to work on keeping the front wheel down)
[03:07:17] <spack> heh
[03:07:20] <spack> reminds me of madeira
[03:07:59] <andypugh> I think the next road to the right is even sillier
[03:08:27] <andypugh> (though shrter)
[03:08:33] <spack> for some reason the terrain feature doesn't work here
[03:09:01] <spack> i see, i have to zoom out a bunch
[03:12:57] <andypugh> Back to subject, Denford Lathes (not far away) http://goo.gl/maps/9mz10
[03:20:19] <andypugh> Playing the same game, Dean Smith and Grace, still making possibly the world's best lathes. http://goo.gl/maps/GdFku
[03:21:19] <andypugh> (daft place to build a factory
[03:23:04] <andypugh> And Harrison are still huge: http://goo.gl/maps/czl0Y
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[03:26:34] <andypugh> And one last name to conjour with: http://goo.gl/maps/y2r0B
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[03:27:01] <andypugh> (I used to work next door)
[03:28:12] <andypugh> Quite what makes a bearing cost this much is beyond me: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gamet-Super-Precision-Bearing-140085-140140HE0-/281172652987?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item41773233bb but clearly it is keeling them in business.
[03:33:45] <andypugh> Anyway, goodnight chaps.
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[10:01:18] <automata_> hi pcw
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[11:39:37] <DJ9DJ> hi
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[12:36:38] <skunkworks> odd unrelated question.. I have now seen to systems with unmached size memory show as dual channel
[12:36:43] <skunkworks> two
[12:37:13] <skunkworks> I thought they had to be of same size and type.
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[12:41:07] <skunkworks> and color
[12:41:34] <archivist_> and phase of the moon
[12:41:59] <archivist_> but...what does the motherboard manual say :)
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[12:42:36] <skunkworks> pshaa!!
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[13:48:20] <jdh> Open Source Mechatronics Outreach & Creative Exchange Symposium
[13:48:24] <jdh> that's quite the name.
[13:48:42] <archivist_> I just got that spam mailing too :)
[13:48:58] <archivist_> I am in the wrong country though
[13:49:26] <jdh> the arduino pic didn't help either
[13:50:43] <jdh> 'size' is along longest edge
[13:51:02] <jdh> <wrong channel>
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[14:02:15] <JT-Shop> anyone bored and want to look at my mill G code generator?
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[14:04:57] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: I took a peek a week or two ago at the tap drill charts
[14:07:08] <kwallace> jdh: archivist: Did you see the entry at the bottom of this page? http://www.osmoces.org/speakers.html "Linux CNC Ed Ford Inventables"
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[14:10:47] <kwallace> JT-Shop: Anything in particular to look at?
[14:11:18] <JT-Shop> just look and see if it is intutive
[14:11:36] <JT-Shop> CaptHindsight: this is not a chart
[14:11:46] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/files/mill.zip
[14:12:09] <JT-Shop> kwallace: the tapping and hole making is complete afaik
[14:12:30] <JT-Shop> if you leave the tool # blank it assumes you don't have a tool changer
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[14:16:29] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: thats how I used it, to check tap drill sizes :)
[14:18:35] <kwallace> JT-Shop: May I pass your mill.zip link to the guys I am working with?
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[14:20:38] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: I noticed that some UNC inch thread sizes have dia. specs in mm
[14:22:30] <CaptHindsight> the values look correct in inches but they just have the mm label after them
[14:22:47] <JT-Shop> which one's?
[14:23:15] <CaptHindsight> UNF and UNC
[14:23:35] <CaptHindsight> I have Mill Gen 0.5
[14:24:07] <JT-Shop> that is very very old. the file name is sfc.py?
[14:24:18] <CaptHindsight> mill.py
[14:24:41] <JT-Shop> download the latest one 1.0
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[14:27:31] <CaptHindsight> 1.0 looks fine
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[14:31:45] <CaptHindsight> kwallace: Inventables is a new company that seems to be selling materials and tools that you'd find at a makerspace
[14:32:38] <CaptHindsight> high end craft supplies
[14:33:29] <CaptHindsight> they got a couple million in venture
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[14:37:22] <JT-Shop> thanks for looking
[14:37:56] <kwallace> I can't imagine there is a very large market for Making. It feels like when the Gold Rush was on, the only people making money where the people selling picks and shovels, but then the bubble always bursts.
[14:38:03] <CaptHindsight> https://www.inventables.com/categories/machines/cnc-mills they all seem to be using Arduinos for controllers
[14:39:17] <CaptHindsight> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/117421627/the-peachy-printer-the-first-100-3d-printer-and-sc
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[14:40:01] <CaptHindsight> this is a good example of it
[14:40:29] <CaptHindsight> low cost and shoddy and sort of works
[14:41:30] <kwallace> Migrating to Beagle/LinuxCNC from Arduino should be fairly easy.
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[14:42:03] <CaptHindsight> kwallace: there has been lots of hype and some people still have spare money to throw around
[14:42:46] <CaptHindsight> yet, Walmart is slowing down it's orders since they can't move their current inventory
[14:43:16] <CaptHindsight> so their customer base (the majority) is running out of money
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[14:46:00] <CaptHindsight> http://www.shapeoko.com/
[14:46:29] <CaptHindsight> maybe thats the plan to move to Linuxcnc
[14:48:51] <CaptHindsight> https://www.inventables.com/technologies/mini-cnc-engraving-router Mach3 on this one
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[14:56:19] <CaptHindsight> JT-Shop: I'll try it out over the next few weeks
[14:57:26] <JT-Shop> ok, thanks
[14:59:20] <kwallace> I'm surprised Lady Ada and Spark Fun where tiny not so long ago and I have seen them on Nova and other main stream programs.
[15:00:34] <CaptHindsight> low cost, almost useful and partially open source does have a following
[15:02:21] <kwallace> Maybe it is the kids of the 1%er's driving it. If so, the money should be stable, but maybe not what interests them.
[15:02:42] <CaptHindsight> just about all the small independent electronic and surplus distributors in the USA disappeared
[15:05:53] <CaptHindsight> Radio Shack started carrying the Arduinos
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[15:09:28] <JT-Shop> kwallace: this is how OneCNC does drilling http://imagebin.org/271982
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[16:06:06] <archivist_> I need one or two as I have a useless couple of machines here at the moment without
[16:08:19] <kwallace> I used to cruise eBay for used VFDs, but the prices have gone way up and these new ones are too cheap to not consider.
[16:08:57] <jdh> you can get a teco/westinghouse for slightly more. No idea if they are any better though.
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[16:14:45] <archivist_> I just hope a beg to someone I know turns up more VFDs :)
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[16:23:51] <archivist_> hmm must stop looking at fleabay inverters
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[16:33:45] <kwallace> The cheap FM50 Teco doesn't have Modbus. The 7200 does but it's not cheap.
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[16:53:27] <uw> i find that annoying about ebay too
[16:53:46] <uw> where people have this stuff listed for 8 months at some ridiculous price
[16:55:16] <uw> i usually email them offers of even more absurd prices (much less than i was willing to pay)
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[16:57:26] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
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[17:14:34] <DJ9DJ> hi
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[17:15:11] <IchGuckLive> B)
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[18:05:13] <CaptHindsight> kwallace: http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-spindle/led-display same thing here
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[18:10:48] <uw> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZSgIpOpBG4
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[18:16:08] <IchGuckLive> im off by
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[18:25:34] <voxadam> Do the Mesa cards (e.g. 5i20) require a kernel module under Linux or is it entirely driven from userspace?
[18:28:15] <voxadam> How does the hostmot2 firmware present the FPGA to the system on the PCI bus?
[18:28:56] <micges> it's mapped to memory
[18:29:11] <voxadam> Well that's sure simple. :)
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[18:29:37] <micges> I mean firmware have 64k window which is mapped to mem
[18:29:55] <micges> all control is going by this window
[18:30:53] <andypugh> voxadam: In the current LinuxCNC it all happens in kernel modules. But that will change in the next version.
[18:30:56] <voxadam> There's no sysfs, configfs, or other Linux-type interfaces presented to userspace?
[18:32:06] <voxadam> I'm just currious. I'd like to get a 5i20 or 5i22 for LinuxCNC experimenting but I know I won't be able to keep myself from hooking it up to anything else that I can get my hands on.
[18:32:07] <micges> no
[18:32:33] <andypugh> There is some stuff in /proc/rtapi but that isn't directly Hostmot2 related
[18:33:22] <voxadam> Interesting. I suppose the module(s) as they stand now are in no way mainline material.
[18:33:26] <micges> there is mesaflash utility that access few boards from user space root account, you can check it's source code
[18:33:32] <andypugh> voxadam: The FPGA holds the program until the PC is turned off. You could load the firmware from a Halcmd prompt.
[18:33:46] <micges> it is in most zip files on mesanet.com
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[18:36:11] <voxadam> Does hostmot2 run on the larger 5I22 boards or just the 5I20?
[18:36:21] <andypugh> All of them
[18:36:29] <false8> Hey guys, anybody know if the granite devices crew is ever on here?
[18:36:56] <andypugh> I have never seen anyone admit to being linked to them. But then I rarely see PCW admit to being Mr Mesa.
[18:37:19] <false8> yeah but that's kind of a public secret no?
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[18:38:17] <archivist_> it is an NSA secret
[18:38:25] <false8> Ah I like that one :P
[18:39:45] <false8> archivist_: you listened to this one: https://soundcloud.com/madiha-1/students-question-the-nsa-at
[18:39:54] <false8> you probably did, like the rest of the world
[18:40:06] <CaptHindsight> or NASA secret if from Brazil :)
[18:40:14] <false8> heheh
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[18:45:06] <false8> Well, I'll go and create a ticket then, unless anyone has anything to say about this: http://tinypic.com/r/2r40efk/5
[18:45:39] <false8> This is on all grounds, as soon as I enable my drives.
[18:46:19] <false8> I've check recheck my grounding (star), but am unable to find it, maybe tero knows what I can do about this :P
[18:47:07] <archivist_> insufficient data for meaningful answer :)
[18:47:15] <Jymmm> *NEW* Island for sale... http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2013/09/pakistans-earthquake-was-so-powerful-it-created-new-island/69813/
[18:47:16] <tjtr33> anyone interested in ability to look at tool or workpiece during a cut by pausing, jogging away, looking, then returning to cut?
[18:47:17] <tjtr33> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Jog-While-Paused
[18:47:37] <false8> that sounds good
[18:47:41] <awallin_> false8: I don't think the granitedevices guy hangs out here much afaik..
[18:48:24] <false8> I was afraid of that :P, they are not too fast at responding via the ticketing system, but the answers are high qualtity :)
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[18:48:47] <false8> archivist_: what kind of data would you need?
[18:49:00] <false8> all of it :P
[18:49:24] <archivist_> I am used to seeing ringing, ...
[18:49:57] <false8> Because of your job? (or am I not getting a joke?)
[18:50:03] <archivist_> what is the source, it it supposed to have a local filter added
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[18:51:01] <archivist_> spent many years as an electronic engineer so job
[18:51:18] <false8> As soon as the motor outputs of the drives are enabled this signal is everywhere
[18:51:44] <pcw_home> Motor drives are notorious for ground bumping
[18:51:46] <archivist_> is this from a vfd, has it got the correct filter added to it
[18:52:21] <false8> The drives are connect like this: 3ph transformer > 3ph recifier > granite devices vsd-e
[18:52:44] <pcw_home> a common mode choke on the three motor wires will help a lot
[18:53:18] <archivist_> has granite got an app note for filtering their drives
[18:54:12] <false8> nope, there is only mention of an ac line filter
[18:55:25] <false8> pcw_home: the servo's are dc, but the drives are pwm mode, so 2 chokes would help?
[18:55:51] <false8> pcw_home: those would need to be connected as close to the drive as possible right?
[18:56:17] <pcw_home> I would try a common mode choke on the motor leads first
[18:56:59] <pcw_home> (giant ferrite bead with both motor wires put through once or more)
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[18:57:49] <joebog> morning all, all 3 axis up and running and under MY control :)
[18:57:53] <false8> pcw_home: I might have a couple here
[18:57:53] <archivist_> take a ferrite out of an old PC psu input choke maybe
[18:58:32] <false8> joebog: congrats, hoping that will be the case here to, very soon :P
[18:58:48] <joebog> tis easy !!!
[18:58:59] <joebog> and the guys here are priceless :)
[18:59:22] <false8> they are
[18:59:51] <joebog> http://s80.photobucket.com/user/amp_mangler/library/linuxcnc_fitting
[18:59:55] <joebog> more pics up
[19:00:18] <archivist_> I get a white screen on photobucket :((((
[19:00:19] <joebog> and I actually cut the LinuxCNC logo into a bit of scrap timber :D
[19:01:59] <joebog> today I need a lil more advice, then Ill order the 4th axis driver
[19:02:22] <joebog> motor is rated 3.5 amps and is 200 steps per rev
[19:02:30] <mrsun_> gah pricing of stuff .. what a pain :/
[19:02:33] <archivist_> the 4th makes you crave for 5 :)
[19:03:01] <joebog> I figure another IL804 stepper driver will fit the bill perfectly
[19:03:08] <joebog> BUT Ill check first
[19:03:25] <joebog> no need for 5
[19:03:34] <joebog> after all its just an engraver !!!
[19:03:50] <joebog> BUT will be used for gun parts as I explained
[19:05:59] <joebog> you running linux archivist ?
[19:06:20] <archivist_> are there any other OSs
[19:06:35] <joebog> heh heh my man !!! nope :D
[19:06:48] <archivist_> two machines on linuxcnc
[19:06:51] <joebog> you do have java installed ?
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[19:07:20] <joebog> and you repaired broken packages ?
[19:08:19] <archivist_> java.. yes but it a hateful heap
[19:08:22] <joebog> photobucket is pretty crappy graphics but should work with only a basic setup
[19:08:38] <joebog> yah I know :)
[19:08:41] <archivist_> it does not work on old firefox
[19:08:46] <joebog> security like windowz
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[19:09:17] <joebog> ya doan wanna update ?
[19:09:30] <archivist_> do not confuse java with javascript
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[19:18:11] <kengu> what is it with all the tb6560 driver boards all over the internet
[19:19:05] <archivist_> the price I suppose, not the quality
[19:19:15] <andypugh> Cheap. Adequate. What's not to like.
[19:19:16] <joebog> and they workOK
[19:19:32] <joebog> my machine works andy :)
[19:19:58] <archivist_> some report easy to kill
[19:20:06] <joebog> now I need run 4th axis
[19:20:20] <joebog> then learn to convert drawings to G code
[19:20:37] <joebog> so I have heard archivist
[19:20:44] <joebog> mine still work OK :)
[19:21:13] <joebog> 5 drivers and the breakout board $129 ya cant beat that
[19:21:41] <joebog> the breakout board is now running my IL804,s
[19:22:37] <joebog> does anybody know where to get those flat belts that are like 10mm X 1.5 mm X 520
[19:23:26] <andypugh> http://www.lathes.co.uk/page4.html
[19:23:31] <joebog> I need some for the engraving machine, when I did my logo in timber with a router bit one of them started to shred, but it was in very poor condition anyway
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[19:24:05] <cpresser> joebog: google for 'timing belt'
[19:24:05] <joebog> service unavailable andy
[19:24:17] <kengu> no it is not
[19:25:01] <archivist_> andypugh, would be nice if he replied to emails
[19:25:06] <joebog> its not a toothed belt at all its a flsat belt
[19:25:36] <joebog> flat !! and it runs at like 20,000 rpms
[19:25:51] <andypugh> Yes, try that URL again
[19:25:54] <joebog> or can do depending on requirements
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[19:26:22] <tjtr33> flat belts http://www.mcmaster.com/#flat-drive-belts/=oofs9f ( tho i get mine from Kity in France )
[19:26:31] <eliezer> quien habla espaol
[19:27:30] <archivist_> english
[19:27:50] <joebog> works now andy, thanks
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[19:28:20] <joebog> andy I do electronics more than machine tools, I owe you, so should you need something please ask
[19:28:27] <eliezer> cnc channel to speak Spanish
[19:28:50] <archivist_> we do not know of one
[19:29:27] <andypugh> You could try http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/45-espanol but I don't think there is much traffic there.
[19:30:04] <joebog> thanks tjt damn the yanks with the archaic measureing system based on king henry's foot
[19:30:37] <joebog> I did bookmark the site however :)
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[19:30:56] <andypugh> eliezer: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/spanish_cnczone/
[19:31:37] <eliezer> but irc channel speaking cnc
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[19:36:03] <uw> no aqu
[19:36:53] <eliezer> uw tu hablas espaol
[19:37:02] <eliezer> uw, hablas espaol
[19:37:55] <uw> si pero no asi
[19:38:09] <JT-Shop> that's two of the 4 spanish words I know :(
[19:38:22] <uw> me too lol
[19:38:48] <jdh> me pene es pequeno y muy verde!
[19:38:57] <jdh> maybe that should have been mi
[19:39:05] <eliezer> jajajaja
[19:39:11] <uw> lol wwat
[19:39:12] <eliezer> no y como
[19:39:15] <false8> pcw_home: chokes halved the p-p value, stupid I didn't do that earlier, thought it wouldn't make much difference. And that my problem lies elsewhere
[19:39:26] <eliezer> uw, y como no entiendo
[19:39:27] <joebog> Ill have mine with mustard thanks jdh :)
[19:39:41] <jdh> joebog: you might want to rethink that.
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[19:40:08] <uw> eh i'll have to look that one up
[19:40:09] <joebog> I speak strine only and even that I do poorly
[19:40:41] <jdh> eliezer: try google translate, no hablo espanol.
[19:40:50] <eliezer> ah ok
[19:41:17] <uw> i speak american
[19:41:25] <uw> which is primarily english
[19:41:30] <uw> but very broken spanish
[19:41:32] <archivist_> I spek tyop
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[19:46:18] <false8> I could only loop my wires once, so getting a choke that can hold more windings would help.
[19:46:33] <joebog> I think I might have met two spaniards in my 60 years
[19:47:41] <joebog> false8 almost any old style switchmode power supply will have at least a few
[19:48:03] <joebog> but even if you have to buy them they only cost a few cents in iron powder
[19:48:11] <uw> yea to be honest i think i'm about the same, meeting 2 spaniards
[19:48:15] <uw> lots of mexicans though
[19:48:18] <joebog> when you get to the fancier ferrites they can cost more
[19:48:19] <false8> Yes I know but its 2145 here :P
[19:49:10] <joebog> old PSU from puter will have em prolly prewound for ya
[19:49:29] <kengu> 22:49 here. but what was this all about
[19:49:40] <joebog> and I missed the first half of your conversation, BUT when I read P-P you have noise problems
[19:49:54] <joebog> 05:50 am here friday
[19:50:26] <joebog> iron powder is prolly best for quenching switch noise
[19:50:54] <joebog> BUT there is also a huge array of GEMOVS that do it admirably as well
[19:53:24] <skunkworks> mhaberler, messages go to syslog and linuxcnc.log? (I have ubc3 and the 7i80)
[19:53:34] <skunkworks> installed
[19:53:38] <mhaberler> linuxcnc.log
[19:53:45] <false8> jep, currently killing a psu :O
[19:54:01] <skunkworks> I see it going to both.. (and I still am not seeing pin data..)
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[19:56:10] <joebog> back to back zener diodes can help if you have big enough ones
[19:56:28] <joebog> depends on amount of back emf energy
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[19:57:24] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2458849
[19:57:25] <skunkworks> and
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[19:58:11] <skunkworks> http://pastebin.ca/2458848
[19:58:19] <skunkworks> (syslog and linuxcnc.log)
[19:58:53] <skunkworks> this is in the syslog...
[19:58:54] <skunkworks> empire-System-Product-Name rsyslogd-2177: imuxsock begins to drop messages from pid 28002 due to rate-limiting
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[20:01:49] <skunkworks> mhaberler, I have to go. bbl
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[20:02:23] <mhaberler> Seb's code is too verbose ;)
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[20:13:07] <andypugh> I normally spend 2 weeks a year in Granada. I have no excuse at all for not speaking spanish.
[20:14:26] <joebog> You go to Coronation street ??
[20:14:34] <joebog> :D
[20:15:01] <JT-Shop> my wife is Puerto Rican, I wonder what my excuse is?
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[20:20:39] <false8> Is it worth mentioning the servos are dc? (Probably not because the drive is pwm output anyway)
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[20:50:36] <joebog> or do you have a multiplying probe attatched ?
[20:50:48] <false8> Yes but its on 1x
[20:50:56] <joebog> OK :)
[20:51:03] <false8> Its on the common, and the PE
[20:51:16] <joebog> just checkin :)
[20:51:16] <joebog> PE ???
[20:51:34] <false8> protective earth
[20:52:26] <false8> but, thats kind of expected, the pe and the hvdc supply negative are connected
[20:52:28] <joebog> thanks
[20:52:40] <false8> thanks for what?
[20:52:50] <false8> I should be thanking you
[20:52:52] <joebog> hmm its a normal split supply ?
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[20:53:30] <joebog> a bridge rectifier with centre ( o volts) tap from transformer centre tap ?
[20:53:53] <joebog> like you would find in a modern transistor audio amp ?
[20:53:57] <false8> Nope, 3ph transformer > 3ph rectifier
[20:54:07] <joebog> plus and minus 120 volts
[20:54:29] <joebog> BUT the secondary is single phase isnt it ?
[20:54:34] <false8> nope
[20:54:41] <joebog> so six diodses
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[20:54:52] <false8> 3ph in 3ph out, 90vac phase to phase
[20:54:56] <false8> yes 6 diodes
[20:55:16] <joebog> one nd of the diodes is positive and the other negative
[20:55:27] <false8> ues
[20:55:28] <false8> yes
[20:55:29] <joebog> where does the centre tap of the supply come from ?
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[20:55:47] <false8> you will have to help me on that one
[20:55:52] <joebog> is it star or delta ?
[20:56:40] <false8> You mean where the 0VAC is? Sorry english is not my first language.
[20:56:57] <joebog> yes where is the 0 VAC
[20:56:57] <rob_h> hi
[20:57:05] <joebog> gday rob
[20:57:24] <false8> There is no centre tap then, the N stops at the main switch
[20:57:31] <false8> n=neutral
[20:57:44] <false8> 6 wires, 3 in 3 out
[20:57:46] <rob_h> missed anything good around here latly? been to bussy making chips :)
[20:57:47] <joebog> so a star winding is three coils with all the beginnings connected together and its 0 VAC
[20:58:19] <false8> that would be correct :P
[20:58:32] <joebog> so its delta that means 3 coils with ends connected to beginnings
[20:59:14] <joebog> so you 0 volts is the neutral at mains power level ?
[20:59:35] <joebog> at the power point
[20:59:42] <joebog> where there is 4 wires available
[20:59:50] <joebog> 3 phases and a zero
[21:00:02] <joebog> which in australia is connected to ground earth
[21:01:05] <joebog> so between the positive and negative you have two capacitors connected in series
[21:01:28] <joebog> with the centre connection of the capacitors going to th zero at the power point ?
[21:01:51] <false8> Hang on, I'll have to look agian
[21:02:07] <joebog> you have a circuit of the power suppkly ?
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[21:02:48] <false8> No, but I could draw one
[21:03:23] <joebog> please do :)
[21:03:39] <joebog> do we have PM enabled on this channel ?
[21:03:52] <joebog> PM = personal message
[21:04:02] <false8> i dont know
[21:04:15] <joebog> I dont think it is
[21:04:37] <joebog> nope only query and whois
[21:04:48] <joebog> OK
[21:05:18] <joebog> you will have to post it on tinypic
[21:07:03] <joebog> wow we have flooded this channel
[21:07:08] <joebog> sorryu guys :(
[21:07:36] <joebog> and back to rob_h nope I dont think you have
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[21:08:16] <joebog> just my ramblings on power supplies
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[21:23:54] <false8> http://tinypic.com/r/331evdd/5 very simple schematic, but that's about it :P
[21:25:03] <false8> The psu is nothing more than a transformer and a rectifier, the gd guy told me I didn't need a cap because the 3ph rectified would produce little ripple, and the drive is designed to cope with 50% ripple
[21:25:21] <joebog> you need a centre tap !!
[21:25:31] <false8> to pe
[21:25:36] <joebog> yes
[21:26:03] <joebog> what voltage do you measure with DMM beteen positive and negative ?
[21:26:12] <false8> the is one, the transformer chassis is connected to the 0v terminal and the chassis is connected to PE
[21:26:13] <joebog> it "should" be 240 volts
[21:27:08] <false8> my dmm reads about 120 volts, the transformer output is 90VAC so thats correct no?
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[21:27:36] <joebog> 90 *1.414
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[21:28:04] <joebog> round down to 1.4 to make it easy
[21:28:41] <joebog> what amps do you expect to take from the supply ?
[21:29:15] <andypugh> In the UK three-phase Neutral is _not_ connected to Ground.
[21:29:16] <false8> 12.8amps is the stall current for the servo
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[21:29:31] <false8> the transformer are the orignal ones
[21:30:04] <joebog> thanks andy
[21:30:23] <andypugh> I am just saying that you probably don't want to be connecting the incoming 3-phase neutral to the machine case...
[21:30:52] <joebog> what I dont understand is how false expects to get 120 volts positive and negative ( which equals 240 volts) from that supply ?
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[21:31:24] <joebog> PLUS the impedance will be "mostly" goverend by the forward resistance of the bridge
[21:31:44] <false8> Im not expecting to get 240 volts, I'm expecting to get about 120vdc, or am I misunderstanding you?
[21:31:45] <joebog> you are probably correct andy
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[21:32:04] <joebog> no false what you are getting is 120 volts
[21:32:37] <joebog> that is correct for your power supply
[21:33:36] <joebog> andy in aus we call that the MEN system or main earth neutral its what Im used to so sorry for the confusion
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[21:34:07] <false8> andypugh: the mains neutral stops at the switch, it's not used.
[21:34:09] <joebog> so your PE is connected to a stake driven into the ground ?
[21:34:41] <false8> I would think so.
[21:35:31] <andypugh> Either an earth rod, or the sheathing if the incoming cable, or to a dedicated earth cable in the incoming bundle...
[21:35:46] <joebog> OK
[21:36:02] <joebog> not very low impedance safety earh !! is it !!
[21:36:44] <andypugh> There are at least 5 ways to do it; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system
[21:36:48] <joebog> false8 I would be sticking a whacking great cap across that supply !!!
[21:37:24] <joebog> say 20,000 uF at say 150 volts rated ( minimum) electrolytic
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[21:37:32] <false8> Yeah, that was my first thought, but the guy at GD told me 1000uf would be enough, or none even
[21:38:43] <false8> Because of the low ripple, and the way the drive works it wouldn't matter, but will it help reduce the ringing to??
[21:38:59] <joebog> sure will
[21:39:42] <joebog> there are plenty of Rodestein electrolytics available on ebay
[21:39:56] <joebog> for very cheap, and they are excellent quality
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[21:42:15] <false8> Problem will be transit time, but I will look for them
[21:43:15] <joebog> by transit time you mean for the caps to arrive
[21:43:26] <joebog> very interesting read andy
[21:43:55] <joebog> I didnt know that stuff, but I guess its because england (GB) is so small it works
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[21:44:17] <joebog> here we send 1 million volts from state to state which can be several thousand miles
[21:44:32] <joebog> the impedance of the safety earth would be woeful
[21:44:39] <false8> yes
[21:45:14] <joebog> false8 you can probably buy them where you live today, BUT they will cost a small fortune
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[21:50:10] <false8> I can get 2000uf 450vdc @ E7.85 a piece,
[21:50:37] <joebog> you need at LEAST 10 !!!! thats 78 euro !!!
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[21:51:13] <false8> Yeah well, if that's what it takes
[21:51:54] <joebog> and 450 volts is probably too high electrolytic caps work best at closde to their rated voltage
[21:52:27] <joebog> so if you measure 120 volts or so I would be looking for 140 or 150 volt caps
[21:52:28] <false8> Didn't know that
[21:52:41] <joebog> and they SHOULD be screw terminal not wire ended
[21:53:15] <joebog> electrolytics are called ( self healing" caps, BUT only if they are operated correctly
[21:53:56] <joebog> so forv 120 volts it "should" be about 150 volts
[21:54:49] <false8> I don't think they have those with wires connected do they?
[21:54:52] <false8> Why?
[21:55:18] <joebog> also the wire from the rectifier to the caps should be LARGE and as short as practical
[21:55:47] <false8> I can install it right after the rectifier
[21:55:52] <joebog> some cheap asian caps I have seen with wire ends at that rating !!
[21:56:07] <false8> I had some planned originally so there is a spot reserved for them
[21:56:23] <joebog> also buy a ceramic cap of say 2000 pF rated say 600 volts
[21:56:33] <joebog> that will remove high frequency noise
[21:56:45] <joebog> cost is very small
[21:56:45] <joebog> about 1$
[21:57:08] <false8> I think I have some somewhere
[21:57:18] <joebog> excellent
[21:57:50] <joebog> if you wind out the horizontal frequency on your CRO it will show the diodes switching on and off
[21:58:05] <joebog> the 2000 pF will romove the switching transients
[21:58:11] <false8> Ok
[21:59:00] <false8> well if this removes the ringing, I can finally move on, this is really interfering with the step pulses to the drives :P
[21:59:04] <joebog> silver mica is the best BUT may be more expensive
[21:59:34] <joebog> it will not remove it completely, but I bet about 90% will dissappear
[21:59:51] <false8> because its also on the outputs of my mesa equiment
[22:00:08] <joebog> if you are really having troubles after that, you can make it CLC filter
[22:00:20] <joebog> then you will have no noise or ringing at all
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[22:00:46] <JesusAlos> gn8
[22:00:47] <joebog> to do that you will need that big choke you mentioned connected to the caps you have fitted
[22:00:55] <false8> cap>choke>cap?
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[22:01:09] <joebog> then add the same number and type of cap after the choke
[22:01:13] <joebog> yep cap-choke-cap
[22:02:14] <false8> Ok, i'll keep that in mind. I asked the gd guy for advise on this and he said it would be alright, so I was thinking I was doing something very wrong
[22:02:22] <joebog> the rough rule of thumb for cap size is 2000 uF per amp of current required
[22:02:30] <joebog> so you said 6.8 amps
[22:02:35] <joebog> call it seven
[22:02:49] <joebog> seven *2000 = 14,000 uF
[22:03:17] <false8> more like 12.8amps, but thats stall current
[22:03:57] <joebog> OK so running current in a servo is "usually" close to stall so lets call it 10 amps
[22:04:11] <joebog> 10*2000 = 20,000 uF
[22:04:12] <false8> so 20kug
[22:04:19] <joebog> :)
[22:04:56] <false8> originally calculated 15000uf I think, with some formula from the www
[22:05:20] <joebog> yep
[22:05:27] <joebog> thats as a minimum
[22:05:37] <joebog> ther is no "real rule"
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[22:05:53] <false8> rule + gut
[22:06:10] <false8> squared
[22:06:27] <joebog> BUT when you add a cap to a rectifying system the DC current you have to multiply by .62 ac amps from the transformer
[22:07:03] <joebog> so if your transformer is rated at 10 amps the available DC current available is 6.2 amps!!!
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[22:07:22] <joebog> thats because the transformer also has to charge the caps as well as drive the load
[22:07:41] <joebog> BUT!! as you are using switchmode drives that is not so critical
[22:07:47] <false8> the transformers are rated 2.5kva
[22:08:02] <false8> one for the z axis, and one for the x and y axis
[22:08:22] <false8> the z is a 1600w and the x and y are 800w
[22:08:30] <joebog> you have 3 such power supplies ?
[22:08:38] <joebog> ahh
[22:08:38] <joebog> OK
[22:09:21] <false8> That's the way it was originally done, and they are real transformer (no auto that is), so that's a safety plus
[22:11:11] <joebog> excellent
[22:11:26] <joebog> auto transformer is much smaller!!
[22:11:34] <false8> yes and cheaper to :P
[22:11:38] <joebog> and of course cheaper to make BUT are not safe
[22:11:54] <joebog> they are illegal in australia now
[22:12:05] <false8> As they should be
[22:12:23] <false8> A danger to society they are :P
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[22:12:37] <joebog> I have spent many years designing and making transformers
[22:12:50] <false8> The big ones?
[22:12:53] <joebog> mostly for valve audio :)
[22:13:06] <joebog> about 1000 watts for myself
[22:13:12] <false8> Ah, now that's beautiful technology
[22:13:24] <joebog> but 25KVA for large SCADA systems I used to design and make
[22:13:26] <false8> I have a Philips Bi-amply I revised
[22:13:45] <false8> Sounds like nothing else :P
[22:13:59] <joebog> I have all valve audio, but its all my design and build
[22:14:13] <joebog> I even folded the 1.6mm steel chassis and welde it
[22:14:27] <false8> I want to get into that some day, but first I need to get this mill on the road
[22:14:40] <joebog> and I have 1968 model Tannoy true dual concentric speakers :)
[22:14:52] <joebog> 98 dB/watt efficiency
[22:15:01] <joebog> so my amp is only 30 watts RMS
[22:15:11] <joebog> 807,s connected in triode mode :D
[22:15:31] <joebog> 9 section OPT's
[22:15:41] <joebog> dual toroid power supplies
[22:16:03] <joebog> weighs about 40 kilograms :D
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[22:16:22] <false8> google tells me that's all very good :P
[22:16:25] <false8> 40kg!!
[22:16:51] <false8> never heard of tannoi
[22:16:53] <false8> y
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[22:16:58] <false8> looks beautifull
[22:16:58] <joebog> heh heh heh the cores for my OPT,s are rated 1000 watts for mains power supply
[22:17:13] <joebog> Tannoy is superb english speaker
[22:17:23] <joebog> google tannoy westminster royal
[22:17:41] <joebog> about 50,000 euro !!!!!
[22:17:57] <false8> :$
[22:18:00] <joebog> boxes are bigger than refridgerator!!!
[22:18:12] <joebog> yep $ i mean
[22:18:18] <joebog> about 20,000 euro
[22:18:32] <joebog> 110 dB/watt !!!
[22:18:43] <joebog> you only need two watts amplifier :)
[22:18:56] <false8> In a perfect world
[22:19:18] <joebog> well you will end up like me !!!! VERY deaf :D
[22:19:30] <false8> And very statified
[22:19:38] <joebog> yep
[22:20:14] <false8> I'm off to bed, will go and buy some caps tommorrow. Thanks for your help!!
[22:20:50] <joebog> anytime :)
[22:20:53] <joebog> sleep well
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[22:23:10] <tjtr33> "Its the Vogon captain making an announcement on the Tannoy" ( <-- when i first heard of Tannoy's)
[22:24:45] <joebog> you dont like the sound ??
[22:24:53] <joebog> especially dual concentrics
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[22:26:05] <joebog> I only have lil baby Tannoys, but sound when coupled to valve amp is superb !!
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[22:26:45] <joebog> 315 series monitor gold
[22:27:02] <joebog> ohh and I dont have any seedie sound
[22:27:09] <tjtr33> ^^ quote from Htchiker Guide to the galaxy was not a criticism of the brand at all
[22:27:10] <joebog> ALL my sound is on vinyl
[22:27:25] <joebog> ohh I see
[22:27:25] <joebog> sorry :)
[22:27:51] <joebog> Tannoy is like Unix or Linux now :D the BEST
[22:28:24] <joebog> BUT british films from way back had Tannoy PA horns always mounted at air force bases and on warships
[22:31:01] <joebog> anyway Im out, thanks again for alla yas help
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[23:22:13] <JT-Shop> say goodnight Gracie
[23:25:37] <Tom_itx> goodnight JT-Shop
[23:25:50] <Tom_itx> btw, how's the gcode generator coming along?
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