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[00:33:36] <andypugh> CNC metal-tickling…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TRdvPtvLOY
[00:33:37] <TombCat> (3TRdvPtvLOY) "AutoTurn Lathe Controller Turns a Ball Handle" by "John Demme" is "Tech" - Length: 0:03:47
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[00:42:22] <Tom_itx> he may have nicked the live spindle around 2:13
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[01:04:28] <pcw_home> Tom_itx: normal Mesa commercial temperature range is 0 to 70C, -I versions are -40 to +85C
[01:04:29] <pcw_home> A 7I43 should be fine at even 90C
[01:05:31] <Tom_itx> i suspect the pc got a bit warm. i had fans on all of it but still...
[01:06:23] <pcw_home> PCs usually have narrower operating ranges
[01:07:43] <pcw_home> (mainly because of hot chips but also because they tend to be pushed closer to the edge for competitive reasons)
[01:09:59] <ssi> pcw_home: hdl is hard :(
[01:10:06] <pcw_home> (looking at the Atmel A5 ARM chips, pretty nice, 536 MHz, floating point and 200 mW full blast)
[01:10:20] <pcw_home> hdl is not really software...
[01:10:29] <ssi> yeah I know
[01:10:32] <ssi> and it's not what I'm used to :)
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[01:13:08] <pcw_home> its just a strong hint to the compiler of what hardware you want
[01:13:21] <ssi> I'm building this spi slave in verilog, and the example I'm working from uses three bit shift registers to detect edges of SCK so it can do all its work in the fpga's clock domain
[01:13:52] <ssi> and it works fine on the transmit side, but I'm having trouble with the receive side because the falling SCK edge signal is delayed by over a full SCK period
[01:14:06] <ssi> sorry by transmit I mean on the MOSI side (slave rx)
[01:14:44] <pcw_home> pipeline the data as well
[01:15:10] <ssi> well my concern is because I believe the master is gonna clock in data from the slave on the sck edges...
[01:15:38] <ssi> so like, if I'm transmitting a 32 bit word, and my MISO side is running a full sck period behind, I'm only gonna get the 31 top bits back
[01:15:47] <ssi> because when it gets to the LSB, there's no SCK edges left
[01:15:51] <ssi> does that make sense?
[01:16:32] <Tom_itx> slave usually lags master doesn't it?
[01:16:38] <ssi> I dunno, does it?
[01:16:42] <ssi> maybe that's how it's supposed to work
[01:16:43] <Tom_itx> don't you usually have to send a dummy byte to flush it
[01:16:56] <pcw_home> if you are crossing clock domains you will have to oversample by some reasonable amount
[01:17:02] <ssi> I'm oversampling 2x
[01:17:05] <ssi> maybe that's not enough
[01:17:19] <ssi> well in my testbench anyway
[01:17:33] <ssi> I'm not running on real hardware yet, I just set up a testbench to fake the spi signals to the best of my knowledge
[01:17:42] <ssi> and I'm running that one with 50mhz fpga clock and 25mhz sck
[01:17:49] <ssi> which is faster than I'll actually run on real hardware
[01:17:54] <ssi> maybe I should slow it down to 10mhz and see how that goes
[01:18:03] <ssi> 10mhz is closer to what I will likely run
[01:18:21] <pcw_home> 2-1 will be a lot harder
[01:18:47] <pcw_home> bu there no reason not to run your HSclock at 100 MHz or so
[01:19:20] <ssi> the clock I have on the fpga board is 50mhz
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[01:19:43] <pcw_home> But you have DCMs
[01:19:48] <ssi> true
[01:19:51] <ssi> I don't know much about it :)
[01:19:59] <ssi> I'm fully on the path of least resistance right now
[01:19:59] <ssi> heheh
[01:20:10] <pcw_home> 5i25 code has 33Mhz, 100 MHz and 200 MHz clocks
[01:20:32] <pcw_home> 33 for PCI, 100 for processors and 200 for PWM
[01:20:50] <ssi> 33mhz comes from the pci bus, and then you have what, a 100MHz oscillator onboard?
[01:21:01] <pcw_home> 50 MHz
[01:21:03] <ssi> gotcha
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[01:22:00] <ssi> well I'm still in simulation, so practically speaking I can have whatever clock I want :)
[01:22:01] <eric_unterhausen> pcw_home, is there a future for external pcie?
[01:22:05] <pcw_home> 100 mhz is awkward for CMOS singe ended OSCs
[01:22:49] <pcw_home> Sure, for example the imx6 has gen2 pcie host or endpoint
[01:24:59] <pcw_home> so if you want something with > gig Ethernet throughput and ~2 usec latency to an external box...
[01:25:29] <ssi> I'm pretty sure there's no lag in spi, at least at the word level
[01:25:47] <ssi> when sck rises, slave clocks in MOSI, and master clocks in MISO
[01:25:48] <ssi> at the same time
[01:25:55] <pcw_home> External PCIE is also subsumed in Thunderbolt
[01:25:56] <ssi> both MSBs at the same time
[01:26:19] <ssi> pcw_home: oversampling at a higher rate seems to help though
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[01:26:21] <ssi> 4x isn't quite enough
[01:26:22] <ssi> but close
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[01:26:53] <eric_unterhausen> I look at the freefall of the desktop and wonder what my next mesanet purchase is going to entail
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[01:27:22] <ssi> 5x seems to do the trick
[01:27:32] <ssi> I'm running 100MHz primary clock and 20MHz SCK
[01:28:35] <Valen> eric_unterhausen: with any luck it'll be an arm core with built in FPGA ;->
[01:29:24] <pcw_home> Not so sure the desktop is going away as fast as some think.
[01:29:25] <pcw_home> Some poobah said that they are more a victim of Moores law
[01:29:27] <pcw_home> (what people have is good enough)
[01:30:04] <Valen> thats what I reckon pcw_home
[01:30:08] <eric_unterhausen> I agree with the moore's law said we should be able to buy a better comp than we can
[01:30:20] <eric_unterhausen> wow, that was garbled :)
[01:30:22] <Valen> computers are fast enough now that they wait for us more than we wait for them
[01:30:34] <eric_unterhausen> I wait for my comp plenty
[01:30:40] <eric_unterhausen> you guys aren't working hard enough
[01:30:44] <Valen> computing is becoming a commodity, like water or power
[01:31:06] <eric_unterhausen> of course, mathworks
[01:31:20] <RyanS> Although surely you can't die a lack of computing?
[01:31:27] <ssi> try it some time :)
[01:31:29] <RyanS> Think I could ...
[01:31:43] <RyanS> Can you die of mental distress?
[01:31:47] <Valen> realisticaly, in an office any desktop has enough power to run the entire office
[01:31:54] <eric_unterhausen> I think that power management is making all computers run at the same speed
[01:32:22] <eric_unterhausen> if you buy a really powerful computer, they throttle it back because it's using too much power
[01:33:02] <ssi> eric_unterhausen: I haven't had that problem :P
[01:33:43] <RyanS> I reckon the stock market is using a single 386 for everything... That's why it keeps crashing :P
[01:34:27] <eric_unterhausen> people tell me their computer is too slow fairly often. I usually find some program causing it
[01:34:44] <eric_unterhausen> one person had a program that kept them from using facebook more than 2 hours a day
[01:34:56] <RyanS> lol
[01:35:00] <eric_unterhausen> it was using multiple cores at 100%
[01:35:17] <pcw_home> doing what?
[01:35:25] <eric_unterhausen> checking facebook, apparently
[01:35:42] <ssi> there we go
[01:35:48] <ssi> pcw_home: thanks, I'm in better shape now :D
[01:36:12] <RyanS> Perhaps it is lazy programming, too much processing powe and no incentive to economise ?
[01:36:29] <Valen> java will fix having too much computer power
[01:36:32] <eric_unterhausen> hp printer drivers will use a core at 100% if you have a windows firewall setting blocking the port that they use
[01:36:33] <Valen> as does "the cloud"
[01:37:03] <pcw_home> Thats lovely
[01:37:03] <eric_unterhausen> matlab is an interpreter written in java
[01:37:06] <Valen> "my computer is slow" == "the internet is fuxed"
[01:37:39] <eric_unterhausen> it will reduce any computer you have to its knees
[01:37:56] <Valen> and generally "my computer is slow" == "my browser have 40000 toolbars"
[01:37:59] <ssi> ttps://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt
[01:38:04] <ssi> https://github.com/panicsteve/cloud-to-butt even
[01:38:11] <RyanS> urghh the 'cloud'. What was wrong with "wide area network" it sufficed for a long time
[01:38:25] <Valen> that'd be a neat addition to firefox, remove the ability to add toolbars and "helpers"
[01:38:46] <Valen> firefox does have a neat "restore to factory settings" button these days
[01:39:11] <eric_unterhausen> that's pretty cool. I have greasemonkey installed but it scares me a little
[01:39:23] <Valen> creates a new profile, copies over bookmarks and passwords and wipes everything else
[01:39:44] <RyanS> Should I be expecting Firefox to utilise 2gb ram if I constantly have 7 tabs open
[01:39:55] <Valen> probably ;->
[01:40:33] <RyanS> Eventually it crashes isn't that what they call a memory leak....
[01:40:40] <Valen> could be
[01:40:49] <Valen> caching stuff in ram is common these days
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[01:47:47] <RyanS> I was trying to find some information about that laser and camera measurement technique you were talking about the other day. Not sure what to google, umm 'diy noncontact measurement perhaps'?
[01:48:12] <PetefromTn> Evening folks..
[01:49:22] <Valen> i dunno, I was just going to do it lol
[01:50:13] <RyanS> You must have read about it somewhere :)
[01:50:39] <RyanS> Maybe it comes naturally to techies...
[01:51:34] <Valen> i don't recall reading about it
[01:51:40] <Valen> it just seemed obvious lol
[01:52:01] <Valen> what is a first principle way of measuring straightness
[01:52:07] <Valen> well light is straight
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[01:52:18] <Valen> how can I use that to make something straight
[01:52:44] <Valen> fire a laser at a bare CCD sensor
[01:53:08] <RyanS> yeah but don't you need some serious precision optical hardware to do that?
[01:53:15] <Valen> then i had a look around the interwebs at commercial way servicing companies, and they seem to do it in a similar way
[01:53:44] <Valen> shouldn't do, CCD is going to be a few mm to a side (at most), put a dot in the middle of said CCD
[01:53:51] <Valen> (say a 1.3mpix CCD)
[01:54:23] <Valen> then find the centre of the dot, so you are going to have a couple of thousand "edges" to work from
[01:55:04] <Valen> in that few mm you are going to get 1280x1024 pixels
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[01:55:29] <Valen> say the sensor is 5mm, each pixel is .004mm in size
[01:57:52] <RyanS> right so you bring up the image on-screen and find that the dot is located at 640, 512, well you've hit the centre
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[01:59:53] <Valen> the thing is you can get better resolution than that because you don't just use the one pixel, you use a few hundred pixels, you find the centre of a big dot
[02:00:08] <Valen> so all those edge pixels "add" precision if you will
[02:01:08] <Valen> Getting a defined dot like that would be quite challenging, so odds are it'll be averaging some sort of noisy image probably with a bit of speckle, unless you do use some decent optics on the laser output.
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[02:02:20] <jdh> measure twice before ordering!
[02:02:46] <Jymmm> As always.... Cut twice, measure once =)
[02:04:23] <RyanS> Okay so then let's say you want to get a linear rail straight you put the laser at one and direct towards the ccd, then if the dot is not visible in the image you adjust the rail until you have whatever image indicates you have the correct alignment of the rail?
[02:04:26] <jdh> I'm making a boat ladder. I way oversized the aluminum needed. I think I way oversized the tubing
[02:05:45] <RyanS> this is where someone says "measuring is for sissys"?
[02:06:12] <Valen> jdh: you are just being generous with your engineering margins
[02:06:29] <Valen> my process was to put the laser at the far end and get it centered
[02:06:36] <Valen> then do the same at the near end
[02:06:42] <Valen> then work along it
[02:06:54] <Valen> move the laser so near and far ends line up
[02:08:45] <RyanS> so you are using an epoxy granite bed, with commercial linear rails?
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[02:09:20] <Valen> for the "good" one
[02:09:28] <Valen> the "router" will be on steel box section
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[02:12:06] <jdh> Valen: more than generous, I dont' think I'll be able to lift it out of the water
[02:12:32] <RyanS> so your measurement instrument sits on the bed, centre the laser and then use that to intersect the rail with the laser beam to check parallelism of the rail relative to the bed?
[02:12:54] <Valen> lol
[02:13:41] <Valen> RyanS: laser generally goes off the side of the table, I was going to put the receiver on the carriage itself to get a reference
[02:15:47] <RyanS> laser beam perpendicular relative to the carriage? or parrallel
[02:15:59] <Valen> parallel to the rail
[02:16:03] <Valen> runs along next to it
[02:19:08] <Valen> http://www.measurementandmachine.com/html/linear.html is one way
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[02:20:02] <RyanS> Okay so you traverse the carriage to one end hypothetically your dot is at pixel 200, but once you traverse it to the other end, you find the one.is at pixel 900 - okay you know it's a fair bit off. So this is synonymous with tramming a vice with a -dial test indicator?
[02:20:17] <Valen> i guess
[02:20:26] <Valen> so you nudge that end of the rail over
[02:20:43] <Valen> then move down the rail to each of its bolt down points and move them to be at pixel 200
[02:21:00] <RyanS> ah ah it sounds pretty simple in theory
[02:21:03] <ssi> I think it's about there!
[02:21:57] <RyanS> And how much better accuracy does this give you than using a micron dial test indicator perhaps?
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[02:22:18] <Valen> you need to have a reference for that
[02:22:41] <RyanS> The edge of the bed?
[02:22:49] <Valen> and the bed is straight because?
[02:24:10] <Valen> the old school way of doing this kind of thing is a precision surface plate, and super fancy interferometic jobbies
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[02:26:12] <RyanS> so it's not necessarily more accurate than that method it's just a pretty accurate DIY method?
[02:27:04] <Valen> I'd say without actually having done it, it should be more accurate as it operates from first principles.
[02:27:19] <Valen> its a DIY way of performing the "best" method of alignment
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[02:27:58] <Valen> note though that the "good" ones also then do a laser interferometic measurement of the screw, to compensate for screw error
[02:28:01] <Valen> mine won't do that
[02:28:09] <TombCat> http://i.imgur.com/dhjbcBX.jpg
[02:28:35] <Valen> you need a good laser to get coherence over that distance and you also need to know the wavelength very precisley, also not a strong point of a diode laser
[02:29:09] <RyanS> I guess you could expect accuracy somewhere between the traditional surface plate method and laser alignment with expensive commercial equipment?
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[02:29:43] <Valen> for the alignment I think it should be on par with commercial
[02:29:51] <Valen> I don't see them doing anything different
[02:30:08] <Valen> I just wont get the screw compensation
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[02:32:15] <RyanS> hmm what sort of laser, solid-state?
[02:32:34] <Valen> I was just going to use a not crap laser pointer ;->
[02:32:39] <Valen> and a $5 webcam
[02:34:43] <frankt> I'm 4 hours into a 3D print using linuxcnc, and the machine has crawled to an almost complete stop. My job is still running, but it executes 1 line of gcode, then pauses for 2 seconds. Axis isn't showing the preview. The DRO reads all 0. I don't know what line I'm on to restart. Anyone seen this before? Can I recover?
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[02:36:36] <Valen> that is odd
[02:36:47] <Valen> I'd suggest running top and seeing whats happening
[02:36:54] <Valen> it sounds something like CPU overheating
[02:37:52] <RyanS> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/TUF-5-Pointer-Vector-Laser-/190833624405?pt=AU_Surveying&hash=item2c6e920555
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[02:49:26] <RyanS> hmmm
http://www.lasercomponents.com/de-en/news/precision-lasers-for-the-alignment-of-machines/
[02:51:06] <jdh> how do you align the laser? or is that what you were discussing?
[02:52:37] <Valen> thats just talking about the alignment of the laser inside with the module housing, that doesn't matter for my setup
[02:52:41] <Valen> the light itself cant bend
[02:52:54] <Valen> well unless you have had *way* too much ice cream
[02:54:42] <toastyde1th> could also use an autocollimator but that's probably out of budget; you can get them used for 400-600
[02:55:05] <RyanS> So you want the oem laser module you can just as well stick it to anything?
[02:55:31] <toastyde1th> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hilger-Watts-Autocollimator-with-Case-TAI-6-/271214791339?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f25a94aab
[02:55:33] <Valen> the laser just sits on a tripod on the floor
[02:55:40] <Valen> I was just going to use a laser pointer
[02:55:42] <Valen> $2
[02:56:52] <RyanS> That might not be 'not crap' :P
[02:57:12] <Valen> put it through a few bits of card to despekle it at least somewhat
[02:57:28] <RyanS> What the hell is that thing
[02:57:47] <RyanS> Looks like a gun sight
[02:58:26] <RyanS> Or a doctor who prop
[02:59:14] <toastyde1th> autocollimator, it's a very sensitive measure of angle used to check machine axes and surface plates
[03:02:43] <Tom_itx> Valen, take a couple pics of your setup when you do it
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[03:04:58] <Valen> Tom_itx: don't hold your breath, I'm notoriously slow lol
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[03:08:56] <toastyde1th> also rather than despeckle, you might frequency filter it
[03:09:02] <toastyde1th> since you'll have time data
[03:09:26] <toastyde1th> that way you won't be throwing out any potential displacement information
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[03:11:24] <Valen> displacement is too hard to do with a diode laser
[03:11:34] <Valen> they arent coherent over very far
[03:11:35] <toastyde1th> i meant laterally
[03:11:46] <Valen> what do you mean?
[03:11:53] <toastyde1th> you're trying to align a way, right?
[03:11:59] <Valen> yes
[03:12:33] <toastyde1th> so the ccd is essentially showing you the small displacement on the plane normal to the beam
[03:12:42] <Valen> yes
[03:12:50] <toastyde1th> that's what i was referring to
[03:13:08] <Valen> I'm not seeing how a variation in frequency can cause the light to bend?
[03:13:33] <toastyde1th> no no, i meant frequency of the pixel oscillation
[03:14:18] <Valen> why would they be oscillating?
[03:14:21] <toastyde1th> my personal concern (if i were doing this) would be that any sort of filtering per frame woudl throw out actual information
[03:14:53] <eric_unterhausen> someone at work tried to order 20" of 80/20 and got 200 feet instead
[03:15:03] <Valen> bonus
[03:15:22] <toastyde1th> but if you look at how each pixel varies in time, any high frequency change can be eliminated
[03:15:45] <Valen> yeah, i figured I'd average a few thousand frames
[03:15:46] <toastyde1th> that way you preserve the very fine spatial information in the frames
[03:15:53] <eric_unterhausen> it came in a 20' long box, the machinist called the guy and asked what he wanted and he said 4x5" long pieces
[03:16:46] <toastyde1th> i think straight averaging would also throw information away because it will occlude the same information
[03:16:57] <Valen> what information?
[03:16:58] <eric_unterhausen> there is a lot of information about measurement of linear stages in the ASPE journal
[03:17:11] <Valen> I'm trying to find the centre of a dot
[03:17:14] <toastyde1th> any pixel luminosity that has a high correlation to the ccd's position
[03:17:32] <toastyde1th> i'd argue you're not, but finding the center of a dot is one way of attempting to find it
[03:18:06] <Valen> i'd argue its the simplest way, as anything outside the central "dot" isn't colimated and as such is going to be subject to change over distance
[03:18:17] <Valen> keeping in mind the distance being measured is around a meter and a half
[03:19:11] <toastyde1th> sure, i'm not disagreeing that it's simple, i'm just thinking out loud of other ways to possibly improve on what is probably going to be a nice method for machine alignment
[03:21:03] <toastyde1th> not necessarily finding the center of a dot, but finding out how the ccd is moving in space using any information available
[03:22:10] <toastyde1th> say i look at every pixel, and try to figure out how it changed compared to its neighbors and then average those
[03:22:26] <toastyde1th> i.e. the pixel to the left became brighter, to the right is dimmer
[03:22:54] <toastyde1th> come up with some metrization based on change in luminosity
[03:23:13] <Valen> when I say "dot" i'm implying its going to be several hundred pixels across
[03:23:16] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:23:32] <Valen> you can get "super accuracy" by measuing the pixels it partially crosses
[03:23:42] <toastyde1th> you can get a measurement, yes
[03:23:50] <Valen> but random noise outside that is just that random noise
[03:24:04] <Valen> have you played with a laser pointer and a card ?
[03:24:10] <toastyde1th> except you don't HAVE a dot, you have function that averages into a dot.
[03:24:28] <toastyde1th> my suspicion is that i can beat the accuracy of that average
[03:24:38] <Valen> good luck with that ;->
[03:24:55] <Valen> seriously, if you come up with something I'm all ears
[03:25:04] <toastyde1th> that's what i'm trying to describe, but i don't have a machine to play with
[03:25:43] <Valen> but for measuring position offset from centre, i don't believe there are any better options other than doing it multiple times
[03:26:04] <Valen> you can do fancypants wave front stuff to measure angle and the like
[03:26:06] <toastyde1th> if you improve the single-pass accuracy, you will improve the multi-pass accuracy
[03:26:13] <toastyde1th> i'm not talking about any interferometric effects
[03:26:29] <pcw_home> http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrary.org/proceeding.aspx?articleid=791948
[03:27:08] <toastyde1th> my method would not be center-estimating at all
[03:27:13] <RyanS> If you're doing a screen grab of one frame why would the next frame be any different assuming there is no movement
[03:27:41] <Valen> RyanS: there are several noise sources, particularly with cheap lasers
[03:27:42] <toastyde1th> RyanS, changes in air current change the refraction
[03:27:48] <pcw_home> Its a known problem with known solutions
[03:28:17] <Valen> over the distance of a meter in still air the effects of air will be pretty trivial
[03:28:19] <toastyde1th> that's not a response, that's just acknowledging that "this problem is a studied one"
[03:28:40] <Valen> and the only way around it is adaptive optics
[03:28:42] <toastyde1th> we don't come up with one way of doing things then go home
[03:29:11] <RyanS> We have several DSLRS at home full frame as well, that work better?
[03:29:17] <Valen> I'm just not seeing how you are going to use random dots on the CCD that have no correlation with position to help you determine position
[03:29:33] <Valen> RyanS: probably not actually, the smaller the sensor, the more dense the pixels
[03:29:47] <toastyde1th> differential measurement; start the laser at some point, call it zero.
[03:29:49] <Valen> they would help if you ran the laser through an optic and blew it up to the size of the sensor
[03:30:01] <RyanS> You want a smaller sensor?
[03:30:17] <Valen> the sensor should be about the size of the laser dot
[03:30:32] <Valen> so the dot fills up say 2/3rds of the sensor field
[03:31:11] <RyanS> But then you don't have as much space to move?
[03:31:20] <toastyde1th> run a high pass filter across the time-series data, to eliminate vibration
[03:31:33] <Valen> the "movement" is error
[03:32:01] <toastyde1th> then, instead of doing ANY averaging, compare each frame to its predecessor and successor
[03:32:26] <toastyde1th> look at the luminosity change and record its amount and direction.
[03:33:11] <Valen> if you do that you are loosing your central reference
[03:33:12] <toastyde1th> you now have a vector field; you can take the avearge of THIS and get the average movement in the plane
[03:33:21] <toastyde1th> why do you care about central reference?
[03:33:37] <Valen> because if you do it your way every frame you will introduce error
[03:33:55] <toastyde1th> what error?
[03:33:57] <Valen> you have no datum to measure from, you are stacking your measurement errors
[03:34:02] <RyanS> Okay if it takes up two thirds of the sensor and you are out of alignmen. dot may quickly end up out of frame? I don't understand why more resolution is a bad thing
[03:34:11] <toastyde1th> right, welcome to high precision measurement
[03:34:20] <toastyde1th> even way interferometers do it this way
[03:34:32] <Valen> you say "i moved .1mm +- .01mm to the right this frame"
[03:34:37] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:34:37] <Valen> then you repeat that every time
[03:34:39] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:34:43] <Valen> the +-.01mm adds up
[03:34:55] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:34:55] <Valen> so after 1000 measurements you are +- 10 mm
[03:35:09] <toastyde1th> except the numbers, in reality, are much tinier.
[03:35:12] <Valen> which is pretty much useless
[03:35:23] <Valen> actually interferometry doesn't do that
[03:35:25] <Valen> by definition
[03:35:46] <Valen> you have a coherent laser beam which has X wavelengths per meter
[03:35:46] <toastyde1th> i don't know what kind of alignment interfereometer YOU have
[03:35:57] <toastyde1th> but we aren't talking about distance from the origin
[03:36:11] <toastyde1th> and peak counting doesn't work here
[03:36:34] <Valen> you then *count* the number of wavelengths you pass, and your error is as a set % of the wavelength
[03:36:35] <toastyde1th> also, differential levels AND autocollimators work this way
[03:36:46] <Valen> if you are talking about angle measurement the same thing applies
[03:37:13] <Valen> they are "counting" the number of wavelengths difference from the centre point to their measurement edge
[03:37:27] <Valen> not the absolute number over the length sure
[03:37:49] <Valen> but the number from the centre of the target spot to the edge, thats how you get the newtons rings
[03:38:16] <toastyde1th> i think you are confusing how that data is used, sorry.
[03:38:26] <RyanS> .... this is why I am an arts student
[03:39:28] <toastyde1th> and, insofar as I am capable of understanding, my method of measurement is consistent with way measurement insofar as i have had limited practice, and seen it practiced professionally
[03:39:50] <Valen> have you seen a laser way alignment?
[03:39:56] <toastyde1th> i've seen several types of it
[03:40:01] <toastyde1th> not just one
[03:41:11] <RyanS> If you have two rails how are you going to check for parallelism between the two rails not just rail to bed
[03:41:12] <Valen> my contention is that random noise and other crap will mean measuring drift rather than an absolute position will lead to much greater error over the course of a measurement
[03:41:34] <Valen> RyanS: the bed, is basically irrelevant, the rails are what needs to be right'
[03:41:35] <toastyde1th> and the most accurate laser alignment tools use differential measurements and the error stacks as you go down the way. there ARE, and always have been, absolute way measurement methods, and they are not as accurate as the differential methods for distances under about 10 meters
[03:43:13] <toastyde1th> although, that does give me a futher idea, if you did a similar thing but compared it to the baseline image
[03:43:28] <Valen> my understanding was the "most accurate" was interferometry?
[03:43:34] <RyanS> do they anticipate that the error is consistent or random? If it's consistent it is probably easier to compensate for
[03:43:47] <toastyde1th> there's a whole cloud of methods that constitute interferometry when it comes to checking machines
[03:44:11] <Valen> yes, but they all come down to counting wavelengths or fractions thereof
[03:44:24] <toastyde1th> yep, the difference is what those measurements represent.
[03:44:24] <Valen> by definition
[03:44:34] <Valen> right, those are all absolute measurements
[03:44:53] <toastyde1th> no, they're really not.
[03:45:19] <Valen> how do you have a non absolute interfrometic measurement?
[03:45:24] <toastyde1th> so, one popular method is to stick a prisim on the axis that responds to tilt.
[03:45:33] <toastyde1th> I don't remember the details of the mirror/prisim configuration
[03:46:08] <toastyde1th> as you move the way, you no change in peak count as the thing moves down the way.
[03:46:31] <toastyde1th> as the mirror tilts up and down, you start to get a count.
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[03:46:42] <toastyde1th> (or left/right)
[03:46:43] <Valen> right, you are getting an absolute measure of the tilt
[03:46:46] <toastyde1th> yep
[03:47:14] <toastyde1th> and when you use that data, you say, "ah, since the machine moved 5 inches, I have X degrees of tilt over this span"
[03:47:18] <RyanS> So you stick the camera next to the laser Toyota and the mirror on the carriage?
[03:47:19] <Valen> now there are several differences between that and what you were proposing
[03:47:19] <toastyde1th> therefore the error is Y
[03:47:31] <toastyde1th> i UNDERSTAND this, valen
[03:47:41] <toastyde1th> "this" being your objection
[03:47:49] <toastyde1th> not interferometry as a whole
[03:48:10] <Valen> firstly that is taking an absolute measure of the "tilt" at the point in the movement, which is fine, and your error is going to be expressed as a fraction of a wavelength of light
[03:48:15] <Valen> which is verry friggin small
[03:48:28] <RyanS> Laser pointer (I use voice dictation it thought I said Toyota)
[03:48:42] <toastyde1th> okay dude, I'm going to just back out of this because you're explaining things to me that I already understand
[03:48:52] <Valen> now in the laser shining at a camera scenario your error is measured in pixels, which are *way* bigger
[03:48:52] <toastyde1th> so i'm not expressing myself clearly enough to continue
[03:49:19] <toastyde1th> and that you say it's expressed in pixels shows that you don't understand the method i proposed, because we ain't counting pixels
[03:49:43] <toastyde1th> with sufficient resolution, you could do this with TWO pixels
[03:49:50] <toastyde1th> resolution in luminosity, that is
[03:49:55] <Valen> right
[03:50:00] <Valen> so its pixels * resolution
[03:50:01] <toastyde1th> but i'm done, sorry.
[03:50:08] <Valen> which is best case 256 levels
[03:50:30] <Valen> end result is your error is going to be much larger than a fraction of 640nm
[03:50:57] <Valen> and the biggest difference, is the interferometric measurements don't stack up
[03:51:04] <Valen> they are measured to a constant reference
[03:51:06] <pcw_home> One paper shows about 1/20 pixel uncertainty using centroid calculation, and about 1/2 frame spot size
[03:51:29] <pcw_home> diode laser
[03:51:30] <Valen> your method stacks error terms
[03:51:36] <Valen> thats pretty good pcw_home
[03:51:47] <RyanS> Hasn't anyone done this on cnc zone?
[03:51:55] <pcw_home> Yeah I thought so (100 frame averaging)
[03:56:01] <toastyde1th> Valen, i have to clarify this because it's bugging the shit out of me: tilt of the interferometer is absolute, but that isn't what anyone cares about
[03:56:11] <Valen> i get that
[03:56:27] <RyanS> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interferometry which category should I read? :P
[03:56:33] <toastyde1th> because aligning a laser is not easy
[03:56:48] <toastyde1th> and using a differential measure removes THAT error
[03:56:57] <Valen> not for interferometry at least lol ;->
[03:57:34] <toastyde1th> i.e. take the cumulative error term, because the absolute error term can't be quantified as easily
[03:57:56] <Valen> the point i was making, is that the *measurements* you make with your tilt system don't have stacked error (presuming you don't loose count)
[03:58:07] <Valen> unless you don't count as you traverse?
[03:58:09] <toastyde1th> yep, but nobody CARES about that
[03:58:17] <toastyde1th> that's not what's being actually measured
[03:58:40] <Valen> well even given that, the measurement of tilt at any point does not depend on the measurement at a previous point
[03:59:01] <Valen> the offset you calculate from those measurements does
[03:59:02] <toastyde1th> yep, but you're still in the realm of measurements that don't tell us anything
[03:59:09] <toastyde1th> right!
[03:59:13] <toastyde1th> which is what we are actually measuring
[03:59:22] <toastyde1th> which is cumulative.
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[04:00:03] <Valen> which is a flaw in the system
[04:00:12] <toastyde1th> right!
[04:00:25] <toastyde1th> because the absolute error is vast and cannot be quantified
[04:00:39] <Valen> which is not the case for a CCD system
[04:00:50] <Valen> because you can directly measure the position at each point
[04:00:57] <toastyde1th> "Is that .005 per foot an error in the laser's alignment, or is it misalignment of the way?"
[04:01:07] <Valen> the laser is perfect
[04:01:11] <toastyde1th> nope, because you're measuring your laser's alignment with the machine.
[04:01:11] <Valen> it is by definition
[04:01:18] <toastyde1th> the LASER is perfectly straight.
[04:01:22] <Valen> yes, you must align the laser to the machine
[04:01:23] <toastyde1th> where you've pointed it is arbitrary.
[04:01:33] <Valen> or know the offset
[04:01:41] <toastyde1th> and now you have a massive error term because you've got no idea where the laser is compared to the machine.
[04:01:47] <Valen> actually i do
[04:02:01] <Valen> i know exactly where it is
[04:02:09] <toastyde1th> okay, say you've aligned your first axis.
[04:02:16] <toastyde1th> It's perfectly straight along your laser.
[04:02:17] <toastyde1th> Align the second axis.
[04:02:27] <Valen> ahh thats where you get tricky ;->
[04:02:49] <toastyde1th> Bingo.
[04:03:17] <Valen> i did have that solved, now I cant remember what it was
[04:04:09] <Valen> first up there are 2 things to considder
[04:04:27] <Valen> firstly if the axis is straight, which we can solve with the same laser system
[04:04:43] <Valen> the second is either getting it perpendicular to the first or at least measuring its offset
[04:05:40] <Valen> I *believe* i was just going to fire mah lazor into a precision mirror and depend on that as its cheap and good enough for me
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[04:07:09] <toastyde1th> or maybe get a 2-4-6 block and machine a housing for your laser pointer
[04:07:16] <toastyde1th> and put the laser on the table instead of the ccd
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[04:07:41] <Valen> well what you are trying to measure is an angle
[04:07:47] <RyanS> That's what I don't get why doesn't it matter if the rails are not parallel to the bed only to each other on the Y, what about X and Z what is their relationship to the bed?
[04:07:55] <toastyde1th> who cares about the bed
[04:08:02] <toastyde1th> you can machine that on the tool if it REALLY matters
[04:08:04] <Valen> the first principles method of that is a collimator
[04:08:22] <Valen> or some other sort of newtons rings arrangement
[04:08:23] <toastyde1th> also the bed's a good reference, but it's not the best - soft jaws cut ON the machine tend to be the most accurate
[04:09:00] <toastyde1th> soft jaws with clamping force set by torque wrench
[04:09:01] <Valen> the thing is RyanS you clamp the job to the bed somehow, and whenever you do that its going to clamp up in the wrong spot
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[04:09:33] <Valen> once its all clamped up, you are then able to move the tool accurately around the job
[04:09:39] <Valen> until you release the clamp
[04:09:48] <Valen> at which point you are screwed, basically
[04:10:19] <toastyde1th> the only way i've ever found to eliminate springback is to not really clamp the part
[04:10:35] <toastyde1th> even on a mag chuck you have to shim the part up or it will spring
[04:11:27] <RyanS> hmm, that's what I mean isn't it vitally important that the axis rails are parallel to the bed as well as to each other?
[04:11:28] <toastyde1th> on a good import HMC we were able to get flatness under .0001" over 15" that way
[04:11:48] <toastyde1th> not much under, but under
[04:12:03] <toastyde1th> ryan, no
[04:12:06] <toastyde1th> the bed's irrelevant
[04:12:24] <RyanS> The base of the machine?
[04:12:31] <Valen> the one we wanted to make wasn't going to have a "bed
[04:12:42] <Valen> just a pair of stacked rotary tables
[04:12:43] <toastyde1th> put your vice on the bed, make two aluminum blocks that bolt to the jaw bolts of your vice
[04:12:56] <ssi> I'm curious about these things
[04:12:56] <ssi> http://www.igus.com/wpck/default.aspx?Pagename=drylin_zlw&C=US&L=en
[04:13:06] <ssi> I emailed my sales rep about prices earlier
[04:13:08] <toastyde1th> put a thin-ish block of aluminum in the vice near the top of the jaws
[04:13:19] <ssi> might be good for a little laser machine
[04:13:22] <toastyde1th> clamp the vice down, cut a lip into the block.
[04:13:28] <toastyde1th> release the pressure, reclamp as light as you can
[04:13:42] <toastyde1th> then skim the lip you just cut for like .005" off every surface
[04:13:44] <RyanS> Don't you need one 'master reference point' for the entire machine? ie the base/bed
[04:13:49] <toastyde1th> no?
[04:13:55] <toastyde1th> the ways tell the machine where to go
[04:13:56] <Valen> the master reference point is the ways
[04:14:16] <Valen> often you will machine the bed to make it true to the ways
[04:14:29] <Valen> but that only really helps for "low" accuracy stuff
[04:15:09] <RyanS> the X and Z axis will reference the y-axis rails?
[04:15:18] <Valen> yes
[04:15:41] <Valen> they all need to be perpendicular to each other
[04:16:13] <Valen> once you have that, you can then use the tool and cut the bed
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[04:17:33] <toastyde1th> most of the time the bearing surfaces on the bed will be machined on via way grinder, and then you fixture the bed to a grinder and grind it
[04:17:37] <toastyde1th> (commercially)
[04:17:54] <toastyde1th> (if you use an aluminum/wood table it's obviously much simpler to do yourself)
[04:18:03] <toastyde1th> s/bed/table
[04:20:16] <RyanS> the columnn where it's bolted to the bed you could align by sight with a machinist square? And then if you use rails you have to shim/position bolt them with precise alignment using measurement instruments?
[04:20:27] <RyanS> I don't know why that is underlined
[04:20:47] <toastyde1th> the column is generally ground independently and then the mounting surfaces are scraped
[04:20:54] <toastyde1th> i.e. where it bolts to the rest of the machine
[04:21:29] <toastyde1th> that way you fit it up once, get your error and do a little trig, and figure out how you have to scrape down the mounting surface to make it normal to the table
[04:21:54] <toastyde1th> (same way headstocks are aligned on lathes, actually)
[04:21:57] <RyanS> You can't really scrape (or at least in a DIY setting its going to take years to practice)?
[04:22:08] <toastyde1th> nah, it's not as hard as people make it out to be
[04:22:19] <toastyde1th> it's just a) time consuming, and b) steep learning curve
[04:22:22] <Valen> the linear rails don't have scraping or grinding
[04:22:46] <toastyde1th> (also note i'm not talking about scraping any way surface, but a mounting gasket for the column)
[04:22:47] <Valen> different kettle of fish to cast iron ways
[04:22:59] <toastyde1th> (not a guiding surface, just an alignment surface)
[04:23:15] <Valen> anyway I'm off to do stuff
[04:23:19] <toastyde1th> doing something like that is MUCH easier than trying to scrape actual ways
[04:23:23] <toastyde1th> bai2u
[04:23:27] <RyanS> these good enough?
http://stores.ebay.com.au/CNC-AND-CUPCAKE-WORLD/Linear-Carriages-/_i.html?_fsub=601751919&_sid=657086089&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
[04:23:41] <toastyde1th> linear ways have to be aligned too
[04:23:43] <Valen> heh thats what we are using ;->
[04:23:52] <toastyde1th> that's the thing we've been talking about
[04:23:58] <Valen> aligned, but no metal removal ;->
[04:24:02] <toastyde1th> ya
[04:24:09] <Valen> if you stuff it up its a screwdriver job to fix ;->
[04:24:28] <toastyde1th> although mfgs scrape or grind the machine base where the rails will go
[04:24:31] <RyanS> CNC and cupcake world?
[04:24:32] <toastyde1th> as though they were way surfaces
[04:24:38] <Valen> those are some decent prices for the rails
[04:24:51] <RyanS> Are you getting any cupcakes to go with that?
[04:25:14] <Valen> we were going to put an bed of water consistency epoxy down and let it self level to give a decent mounting surface
[04:25:42] <Valen> tossing up putting a hunk of ground flat bar on it then mounting the rails to that
[04:26:06] <RyanS> That's how they make enormous 'surface plates' for motor racing
[04:26:14] <RyanS> Put the entire car on its
[04:26:34] <Valen> with the right additives it can be "ok"
[04:27:19] <RyanS> Why don't you just get an okay granite surface plate?
[04:27:40] <Valen> because they cost a craptone and weigh more
[04:27:56] <Valen> also our router is 1.2x600 working area
[04:28:26] <RyanS> I was thinking for a minimill
[04:28:40] <Valen> still heavy and kinda fragile
[04:29:44] <RyanS> http://www.carbatec.com.au/granite-surface-plate_c20499
[04:30:02] <RyanS> Or maybe a cast-iron surface plate
[04:31:16] <RyanS> I think I would use cast iron because it is easy to drill and tap
[04:33:47] <RyanS> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Surface-Plate-Cast-Iron-/261228456404?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item3cd26de9d4
[04:34:02] <RyanS> in Sydney!
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[04:44:51] <Xfriend> is possible to usr arduino with linuxcnc??
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[04:48:06] <pcw_home> you cannot run linuxcnc on one but they have been used for non-real time I/O
[04:53:19] <ssi> pcw_home: got my spi code running on the hardware, at 22MHz spi, 100MHz core
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[04:55:05] <RyanS> What would you expect the max dynamic load to be on the carriage ways of a lathe? Is this depending on only the cutting depth and material
[04:55:27] <RyanS> Stainless steel is probably the hardest you have to deal with diy?
[04:56:21] <toastyde1th> most people don't even attempt stainless
[04:56:33] <toastyde1th> and it's not necessarily hard, just very strong
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[04:56:46] <RyanS> Anyway are they the only two factors cutting depth and material?
[04:56:49] <ssi> stainlessisn't so bad as long as you don't let it work harden
[04:57:11] <toastyde1th> no, there's a lot of factors that go into horsepower/force calculation
[04:57:48] <toastyde1th> things like volume removed per minute (depth of cut, width of cut, and feed) and then chip load modifies it
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[04:59:14] <RyanS> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HGW30-LINEAR-MOTION-CARRIAGE-RAIL-GUIDE-SHAFT-CNC-MACHINE-ROUTER-SLIDE-BEARING-/300874839003?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item460d89b3db for a linear guide based lathe with a distance between centre of 300mm and ummm 150mm swigng
[04:59:37] <ssi> 30mm rails are ENORMOUS
[04:59:58] <ssi> I've got 25mm rails on my plasma table, 5 feet long, and they're far too big
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[05:01:22] <RyanS> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/HGW15-HIWIN-LINEAR-MOTION-CARRIAGE-RAIL-GUIDE-SHAFT-CNC-ROUTER-SLIDE-BEARING-/290878372573?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_15&hash=item43b9b3badd $44 each
[05:02:32] <RyanS> As provisional estimate sufficient for my- lathe concept?
[05:03:18] <RyanS> 1160kg dynamic load
[05:04:10] <ssi> yeah I think 15mm's would be fine
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[05:04:14] <ssi> use FOUR per axis
[05:04:18] <ssi> two rails, two blocks per rail
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[05:06:04] <RyanS> slap a plate on top to make the carriage, another couple of short rails with another plate on top as the cross slide
[05:06:13] <ssi> yep
[05:06:22] <RyanS> tools on top of that
[05:06:33] <ssi> you might consider doing 20 or 25mm for the Z axis, and 15mm for X
[05:06:44] <abetusk> anyone have a reflow oven here?
[05:07:11] <RyanS> Because parting off is going to have big load?
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[05:07:26] <ssi> I dunno
[05:07:28] <ssi> just a gut feeling
[05:07:28] <ssi> :)
[05:08:09] <RyanS> it might... However tail stock....
[05:10:11] <RyanS> aaha! Just get an off-the-shelf rotary table install stepper and you have a turret tool changer
[05:10:43] <ssi> not a bad idea
[05:10:46] <ssi> they can't backdrive
[05:11:21] <RyanS> They can handle the load?
[05:11:27] <ssi> probably
[05:12:06] <ssi> what are you gonna use for a base?
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[05:19:55] <RyanS> Chipboard? Just kidding
[05:20:52] <RyanS> Purchase a dead lathe and steal the bed?
[05:21:18] <ssi> not a great option
[05:23:26] <RyanS> Get a big chunk of cast-iron and have someone stick it on a surface grinder? How much could they possibly challenge
[05:23:34] <RyanS> Charge
[05:23:38] <RyanS> Sorry
[05:23:43] <RyanS> Probably a lot
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[05:25:43] <Willburrrr2003> hi all, trying to get Modbus talking, but having issues...anyone here got it working that can offer advice?
[05:26:48] <Willburrrr2003> i am trying to communicate through the serial on ttyS0
[05:26:49] <RyanS> What about big piece of rectangular structural steel and fill it with epoxy granite?
[05:27:09] <ssi> now you're thinkin ;)
[05:27:25] <RyanS> You would have to fill it?
[05:27:41] <ssi> would be a good idea
[05:27:48] <RyanS> Concrete?
[05:27:49] <ssi> you want to absorb as much vibration and resonance as possible
[05:27:55] <ssi> epoxy granite I think is the best bet
[05:29:41] <RyanS> I mean you could pour it into a box but then you have t to insert threaded studs
[05:31:12] <Willburrrr2003> have you guys tried this for dampening vibration?
http://www3.sympatico.ca/3jdw8/antivibration.htm
[05:35:42] <toastyde1th> it doesn't damp all vibration
[05:35:52] <toastyde1th> just some
[05:37:09] <toastyde1th> and wood turning is a very different beast than metalcutting - even small metalcutting lathes tend to be quite heavy for their size
[05:37:30] <toastyde1th> he's essentially built himself a tuned mass damper
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[05:42:12] <Willburrrr2003> oh i understand ghat it will not damp all, but i was thinking that and a nice base....
[05:42:38] <Willburrrr2003> sry about spelling, on my phone tonight and this kb is a pain
[05:42:48] <RyanS> If you have linear rails bolted down to a heavy bed, the bed doesn't have to precision ground?
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[05:46:11] <toastyde1th> ryan, it usually is.
[05:46:19] <toastyde1th> (IS ground or scraped)
[05:47:23] <RyanS> it will have commercial rails bolted to it tho....
[05:47:27] <toastyde1th> ...so?
[05:47:59] <RyanS> The rails are what needs to be precise?
[05:48:21] <Willburrrr2003> the rails are only as as good as the surface the are mounted to, right?
[05:48:21] <toastyde1th> the rails are going to be violently bolted to a surface
[05:48:39] <toastyde1th> they're going to take on the peaks and valleys of that surface
[05:49:23] <RyanS> It doesn't matter if the bed is aligned to the rail providing its perpendicular to the other axis? or that's a separate issue?
[05:50:05] <toastyde1th> the bed just has to provide a geometrically flat surface (both rail mounting paths are in the same plane, lack twist, etc)
[05:50:50] <toastyde1th> the bed isn't "perpindicular" to anything
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[05:51:09] <toastyde1th> it's just there to make sure there's no oscillation in Z as the table moves
[05:51:20] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[05:51:20] <RyanS> It's probably just better to buy a used cast-iron surface plate? Get it chopped in half
[05:51:59] <toastyde1th> also, the table is usually stacked on top of a second axis - most bed mills have the Y axis on the main casting
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[05:52:08] <Willburrrr2003> lol 11pm here
[05:52:16] <Xfriend> can I use timing belt on cnc machine "T5"?
[05:52:20] <toastyde1th> then you have a table sitting on that, to which you mount another set of rails
[05:52:24] <toastyde1th> which forms your x axis
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[05:53:11] <RyanS> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1vNveXSprc I would use square rails
[05:53:27] <toastyde1th> the type of rail doesn't matter
[05:53:52] <toastyde1th> i mean for accuracy it does
[05:54:02] <toastyde1th> but at this point the accuracy of the rails themselves are not the major factor.
[05:55:04] <RyanS> Off-the-shelf module.. ?
http://www.linearbearings.com.au/Products/LinearModularSlideUnits/LinearScrewDriven/tabid/90/Default.aspx
[05:55:12] <RyanS> Probably stupid expensive
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[06:11:54] <RyanS> Here is the lathe carriage
http://www.ebay.com/itm/THK-63401S-Ballscrew-Linear-Actuator-Table-for-High-Precision-Heavy-Loads-/200928424315?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ec844717b too bad about the shipping
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[06:42:20] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:49:25] <RyanS> bolt this down to something heavy...... instant lathe bed?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ballscrew-Positioner-16-Travel-/330653313847?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cfc792b37
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[13:50:57] <liyong_public> Is there anybody can speak Chinese or Japanese.My english is poor...Want to ask some questions.
[13:52:34] <liyong_public> about linuxcnc
[13:57:12] <micges> liyong_public: try
[13:57:17] <cpresser> liyong_public: i do speak very limited japanese. surely not enough for technical questions. just try in english
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[14:00:46] <liyong_public> in linuxcnc ,I want to write the parport's output to a file,how can i do
[14:02:54] <mhaberler> halsampler
[14:04:52] <liyong_public> thank you,i'll learn to use it ,is it a tool?
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[14:21:12] <micges> liyong_public: see
http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/streamer.9.html
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[15:35:47] <ssi> holy shit
[15:35:55] <ssi> those igus belt-drive slides are like $700 each :(
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[15:42:48] <archivist> and being igus and probably friction or play, I would not bother
[15:43:28] <archivist> dunno how people get taken in by some of their stuff :)
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[15:43:58] <ssi> some of their stuff is nice
[15:44:07] <ssi> I was expecting that to be quite a bit cheaper
[15:44:14] <ssi> silly me I guess :)
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[15:44:50] <ssi> it might be a really slick way to do a laser cutter
[15:44:56] <ssi> quick to put together
[15:45:04] <archivist> is it still plastic sliding in anodised aly
[15:45:11] <ssi> but for $2400 worth of X/Y axis, I'm not willing to take the chance
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[15:45:20] <ssi> no it's thompson shaft
[15:45:37] <ssi> you can get them with plastic bushings or bronze or recir-ball
[15:45:57] <archivist> so they cannot even use their own slides :)
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[15:46:16] <ssi> I think the slides you're talking about are too small for this
[15:46:46] <ssi> here's the parts in question:
[15:46:53] <ssi> http://www.igus.com/wpck/default.aspx?Pagename=drylin_zlw&C=US&L=en
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[15:48:26] * archivist notes the bullet point "low loads"
[15:48:47] <ssi> 300N loads on the 1040 part
[15:48:56] <ssi> you're not gonna build a mill with it
[15:49:02] <ssi> but it'd be fine for a laser :P
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[15:50:23] <ssi> weird, the "standard" part is cheaper than the "basic" part
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[15:53:04] <archivist> and drylin means DryLin® linear bearings operate on glide pads unlike the common recirculating ball bearing systems.
[15:53:18] <archivist> spastic rubbing
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[15:53:46] <archivist> I thing the 300N is in the belt direction
[15:53:52] <archivist> think
[15:54:16] <ssi> lul
[15:54:24] <ssi> doesn't matter, I won't spend that money
[15:54:52] <archivist> and this is the play Max. position variation of the carriage, load dependent.** mm ± 0,35
[15:55:16] <archivist> sample I saw was a rattling fit
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[16:32:12] <CaptHindsight> it also depends on how much your time is worth, if I all I have to do is remove a drive from a box and tighten a few screws vs spend more than a day fabricating something, $700 may be well worth it
[16:33:32] <ssi> I agree, but I dunno what the quality is like for that kind of money
[16:35:20] <archivist> the built in play is for a different use than ours
[16:35:43] <archivist> I can see it in a packaging machine
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[16:56:16] <IchGuckLive> hi all B)
[16:57:26] <kb8wmc> IchGuckLive: hello sir, how have you been?
[16:58:19] <cbjamo> seen andypugh
[16:58:38] <andypugh> Just about to disappear again..
[16:58:44] <cbjamo> heh
[16:58:47] <IchGuckLive> kb8wmc: fine as always and all the time
[16:59:27] <cbjamo> Do you have any idea what this error is? "emc/task/taskintf.cc 614: Error on asix 0, command number 104
[16:59:48] <kb8wmc> very good sir
[16:59:54] <andypugh> No, I am afraid I have no idea.
[17:00:36] <cbjamo> Google shows nothing, I looked at the source, its checking "joint->axis" against EMCMOT_JOINT_ERROR_BIT.
[17:01:00] <cbjamo> It just ands them together inside an if statement.
[17:01:20] <andypugh> Yes, I was just looking.
[17:01:22] <andypugh> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=blob;f=src/emc/task/taskintf.cc;h=c6225ee818e3976dc2c54cfe6b87dedc1727cb04;hb=HEAD#l612
[17:01:22] <cbjamo> greping the folder for "joint->axis" shows nothing
[17:01:25] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: are you on 2.5.2
[17:01:36] <cbjamo> IchGuckLive: I'm on joints_axis3
[17:01:53] <IchGuckLive> linuxcnc version
[17:02:09] <cbjamo> sorry, its "joint->flag" not "joint->axis"
[17:02:11] <andypugh> For ja3 you need micges
[17:02:25] <cbjamo> micges?
[17:02:29] <andypugh> I think so.
[17:02:37] <micges> cbjamo: whats up?
[17:03:25] <cbjamo> I'm working with ja3, I'm getting this error when I try to move an axis "emc/task/taskintf.cc 614: Error on asix 0, command number 104"
[17:04:01] <cbjamo> I'll admit that there is a good chance that there is something wrong with my hal file, but I don't know.
[17:04:34] <IchGuckLive> i think he got the wrong entry in the [TRAJ] AXES =
[17:05:00] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: COORDINATES = X Y Z OR ?
[17:05:12] <micges> cbjamo: there should be another line besides error in terminal
[17:05:13] <cbjamo> Possible, for testing I've paired it down to just one joint and one axis.
[17:05:34] <cbjamo> "joint 0 following error"?
[17:06:10] <cbjamo> otherwise everything looks good.
[17:06:20] <micges> ah so you don't have feedback on joint.0.motor-pos-fb hal pin
[17:06:26] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: give it a AXES = 3 and COORDINATES = X Y Z as a minimum
[17:06:48] <micges> cbjamo: use pastebin.com to paste your hal file
[17:06:51] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: is it a plasma with THC
[17:07:52] <cbjamo> My hardware is a 5i22-1 and 3 7i39s, to drive two motors per axis
[17:08:10] <IchGuckLive> thats not the problem
[17:08:27] <IchGuckLive> or do you got servos ,No steppers
[17:08:33] <cbjamo> Servos
[17:08:37] <IchGuckLive> AH
[17:08:46] <IchGuckLive> do you use the gantry skins
[17:08:52] <micges> cbjamo: if so check feedback signals
[17:09:23] <cbjamo> here's the hal file, its a mess: www.pastebin.com/L2hvHRJk
[17:09:44] <IchGuckLive> loadrt trivkins O.O
[17:09:51] <IchGuckLive> no way
[17:10:06] <cbjamo> what?
[17:10:22] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: look at the gantry config redy example
[17:10:51] <IchGuckLive> you cant drive a servo system with 2 motors on a Axis with trivsskins
[17:11:33] <cbjamo> My understanding was that that was the point of ja3.
[17:12:00] <IchGuckLive> loadrt gantrykins coordinates=XYZY
[17:12:18] <IchGuckLive> net J0pos axis.0.motor-pos-cmd => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
[17:12:19] <IchGuckLive> net J1pos axis.1.motor-pos-cmd => axis.1.motor-pos-fb
[17:12:21] <IchGuckLive> net J2pos axis.2.motor-pos-cmd => axis.2.motor-pos-fb
[17:12:22] <IchGuckLive> net J3pos axis.3.motor-pos-cmd => axis.3.motor-pos-fb
[17:12:28] <IchGuckLive> there is your ERROR
[17:13:19] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: Actually, that's not right for ja3 either, I don't think.
[17:13:30] <micges> cbjamo: add this line: net x-pos-fb axis.0.motor-pos-fb hm2_5i22.0.endcoder.00.position
[17:13:52] <micges> cbjamo: and see if position changes when you move motor by hand
[17:14:08] <andypugh> I think that what is needed for ja3 is "gentrivkins". But micges knows more than me (by about a billion percent)
[17:14:18] <IchGuckLive> mic is the pro on this job so let him explain
[17:14:50] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: agree with hundert percent O.O
[17:15:43] <cbjamo> Ok, and gantryvkins will handle multiple motors on each axis?
[17:15:56] <micges> yes
[17:16:02] <cbjamo> good.
[17:17:00] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: there are example files even in sim/axis1
[17:17:12] <micges> cbjamo: did you checked feedback?
[17:17:23] <cbjamo> trying to...
[17:17:44] <cbjamo> pin "hm2_5I22.0.encoder.00.poistion
[17:17:49] <cbjamo> does not exist
[17:18:30] <cbjamo> ah, nvm it is there, derp
[17:19:20] <cbjamo> was a typo
[17:19:35] <cbjamo> howwever, there is no feedback
[17:21:14] <cbjamo> hmm, that makes sense, since I don't have the encoders hooked up. I can't till the rest of the machine is built, as we are using linear encoders. Is it possible to drive the motors using just the hal feedback?
[17:24:58] <micges> cbjamo: I don't think so.
[17:25:08] <micges> andypugh: ?
[17:25:22] <IchGuckLive> as idiscribed above
[17:25:49] <micges> ah yes
[17:27:00] <micges> cbjamo: you can make loopback on every motor to use Axis but not move motors
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[17:28:42] <cbjamo> Ok, thats a shame, my partner is building the frame right now, so it shouldn't be too long before I can get it together.
[17:28:52] <pcw_home> It is possible to use just Hall commutation (but a bit 'ticky')
[17:29:21] <cbjamo> Well, I knew that it was possible electricly, but I wasn't sure if linuxcnc could do it.
[17:29:42] <cbjamo> How do I make the loobbacks, so that I can get the hal file setup.
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[17:30:22] <micges> <IchGuckLive> loadrt gantrykins coordinates=XYZY
[17:30:24] <micges> <IchGuckLive> net J0pos axis.0.motor-pos-cmd => axis.0.motor-pos-fb
[17:30:24] <micges> <IchGuckLive> net J1pos axis.1.motor-pos-cmd => axis.1.motor-pos-fb
[17:30:24] <micges> <IchGuckLive> net J2pos axis.2.motor-pos-cmd => axis.2.motor-pos-fb
[17:30:24] <micges> <IchGuckLive> net J3pos axis.3.motor-pos-cmd => axis.3.motor-pos-fb
[17:30:37] <micges> change axis to joint
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[17:31:05] <micges> and check if XYZY is your setup
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[17:31:21] <micges> and change kins to gentrivkins
[17:31:25] <micges> should work
[17:32:28] <cbjamo> for the coordinates, I should set that to XXYYZZ, for two motors per axis?
[17:32:50] <cbjamo> and does the order matter?
[17:32:55] <micges> on every axis?
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[17:33:04] <cbjamo> yes
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[17:33:13] <micges> then yes
[17:33:24] <cbjamo> does order matter?
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[17:34:22] <micges> order is same as your motors order
[17:35:29] <cbjamo> ok and axis.0.motor-pos-cmd becomes joint.0.motor-pos-cmd?
[17:35:34] <micges> yes
[17:35:39] <cbjamo> and I'll need 0-5?
[17:35:44] <micges> yes
[17:35:49] <cbjamo> thanks
[17:36:15] <micges> [TRAJ] AXES = XYZ
[17:36:27] <micges> [KINS] JOINTS = 6
[17:37:44] <cbjamo> my ini doesn't have a [KINS], is there anything else I'll need there?
[17:38:38] <micges> only JOINTS is needed
[17:39:00] <cbjamo> and under [TRAJ] is is AXES = XYZ or COORDINATES = XYZ?
[17:40:25] <micges> COORDINATES
[17:41:09] <cbjamo> And for AXES?
[17:41:22] <micges> 3
[17:43:24] <cbjamo> hmm, says pin 'joint.0.motor-pos-cmd' does not exist
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[17:44:22] <micges> the you don't have ja3
[17:45:39] <cbjamo> hmm, I'm fairly certain I do, but I may have botched a git command. How should I check?
[17:46:25] <IchGuckLive> reed section 3.2.9 in the integreader manual please cbjamo
[17:46:47] <micges> cbjamo: git status
[17:47:25] <cbjamo> On Branch joints_axes3
[17:48:07] <IchGuckLive> on Branch THEN its JOINTS = 4 in the [TRAJ] section
[17:48:17] <micges> did you recompile after branch change?
[17:48:25] <cbjamo> yes
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[17:48:54] <Tecan> those DC to DC Buck Step Down Converter Modules on ebay work awesome
[17:49:19] <Tecan> put one on my computer ps for my led's around work area
[17:49:24] <IchGuckLive> Tecan: yews they are good and cheep
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[17:50:07] <cbjamo> Ah, I had forgotten to change to gentrivkins, but now it says it cant find that
[17:50:19] <IchGuckLive> Tecan:
http://www.pollin.de/shop/dt/NDc5OTgxOTk-/Bausaetze_Module/Bausaetze/Step_Down_Wandler_Bausatz.html 4,5USD
[17:50:51] <Tecan> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/400369337180?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
[17:51:01] <Tecan> 5 usd for a cooler one
[17:51:49] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: on a real stepper systems i woudt go for real "loadrt gantrykins coordinates=XYZY
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[17:55:10] <cbjamo> IchGuckLive: I'm using servos
[17:55:40] <IchGuckLive> sorry seervos ! B)
[17:56:19] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: i got 140 stepper mashines so
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[18:00:34] <cbjamo> np
[18:06:57] <IchGuckLive> cbjamo: i got one last question as its late here im going offline WHY arend you on the Standard new livcd install and updated just to 2.5.2
[18:07:13] <IchGuckLive> all you need is in this install already included
[18:08:29] <cbjamo> I am, then i got the source for ja3 from git and compliled it. I was under the impression that without it I would have a hard time with having mutliple motors per axis.
[18:09:32] <IchGuckLive> imagin you are not the first how likes to drive its mashine with 2 motors per axis
[18:09:54] <IchGuckLive> ok its like it is have fun
[18:10:01] <IchGuckLive> im off for today By
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[18:27:00] <cbjamo> so, gentrivkins isn't even in my source, unless it is hidden away somewhere other than src/emc/kinematics
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[18:37:30] <cradek> cbjamo: gentrivkins is in the joints_axes3 branch
[18:37:51] <cbjamo> I'm on the joints_axes3 branch
[18:39:16] <cradek> then I cannot explain it:
http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=linuxcnc.git;a=tree;f=src/emc/kinematics;h=1f8cccb3bcb172ee57086a3c7e41e9bd7d163891;hb=refs/heads/joints_axes3
[18:39:51] <cradek> perhaps you aren't in the branch you think you are
[18:40:00] <cbjamo> git status reports ja3
[18:40:19] <cradek> git branch
[18:40:36] <cbjamo> also shows as being on ja3
[18:41:18] <cradek> maybe your local joints_axes3 is not tracking origin/joints_axes3
[18:41:41] <cbjamo> hmm, how do I check that?
[18:41:51] <cradek> how did you create the branch?
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[18:42:41] <cbjamo> I was following the instructions on the wiki
[18:42:51] <cradek> % git branch -v -v |grep joints_axes3
[18:42:51] <cradek> joints_axes3 e56525f [origin/joints_axes3: behind 1] tests: update ini files for ja3
[18:42:59] <cradek> looks like this tells you what it's tracking
[18:44:05] <cbjamo> hmm, I got nothing, looks like I messed up a git command, which sucks, since it take this computer about an hour to comple :(
[18:44:50] <cbjamo> do you know how to remove my local branch?
[18:45:40] <cbjamo> or should I just nuke the folder and start from scratch?
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[20:58:57] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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