#linuxcnc | Logs for 2013-03-23

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[00:00:04] <r00t4rd3d> i just fullscreen linuxcnc and pretend its something else
[00:00:26] <pfred1> well I want decent latency
[00:00:40] <pfred1> can't really fib with that
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[00:04:25] <andypugh> pfred1: I don't care about Ubuntu. It siffices to start the LinuxCNC GUI of my choice. Nothing else matters.
[00:04:25] <r00t4rd3d> do you run linuxcnc on debian all the time?
[00:05:00] <pfred1> andypugh well I just think Ubuntu is a bit of a resource hog
[00:05:22] <r00t4rd3d> i can never find what i am looking for in unity
[00:05:30] -!- Tom_itx [Tom_itx!~Tl@unaffiliated/toml/x-013812] has joined #linuxcnc
[00:05:44] <jdh> I run linuxcnc on single purpose boxes
[00:05:45] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d well you can change what window manager you use
[00:05:54] <jdh> so, resource hog is kind of meaningless
[00:05:55] <r00t4rd3d> really, how?
[00:06:06] <pfred1> r00t4rd3d install it and switch to it
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[00:06:19] <r00t4rd3d> i was kidding
[00:06:46] <andypugh> Well, I am developing for LinuxCNC at the moment, but I am actually sat at a Mac, and editing the source in Xcode. Then I make and debug with ssh. So I am pretty much platform-agnostic.
[00:06:48] <pfred1> aptitude install fluxbox;echo "exec fluxbox" > ~/.xinitrc
[00:07:23] * jdh ponders a platform agnostic mac user.
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[00:07:40] <pfred1> andypugh I do a lot of setup with ssh
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[00:07:47] <andypugh> I like the Apple hardware.
[00:08:11] <pfred1> I hate Apple as an eco-system
[00:08:22] <andypugh> If I am going to spend a lot of money on something I want it to look like it has quality.
[00:08:40] <pfred1> I got this PC for $5
[00:08:51] <jdh> dont' be a hater, use what makes you happy.
[00:08:59] <jdh> even if that means it has an apple on it.
[00:09:10] <r00t4rd3d> hey if you like apple hardware:
[00:09:11] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?p_id=9579&seq=1&format=2
[00:09:16] <pfred1> jdh I use what doesn't make me happy too and that makes me happy :)
[00:09:23] <r00t4rd3d> that is a monitor made by the same company apple uses
[00:09:29] <r00t4rd3d> half the cost
[00:09:43] <pfred1> there are only like 4 flat panel manufacturers in the world
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[00:10:22] <pfred1> so every monitor maker uses one of those 4 manufacturers
[00:10:41] <andypugh> Do you buy cars purely on price and competence? Or do you buy the one you like?
[00:11:30] <r00t4rd3d> color mainly
[00:11:44] <pfred1> I paint cars so the color doesn't matter to me
[00:11:45] <jdh> and number of cup holders
[00:11:58] <andypugh> There you are. I _like_ anodized aluminium in my computers :-)
[00:12:01] <r00t4rd3d> heated seats are a bonus
[00:12:21] <pfred1> andypugh anodizing ian't hard I'm sure you can manage it
[00:12:25] <jdh> I have heated seats, they are kind of pointless here other than maybe 10 days a year
[00:12:46] <r00t4rd3d> here you dont use them 10 days a year
[00:12:56] <pfred1> I was looking at chrome plating last night
[00:13:02] <pfred1> I have some tools I need to plate
[00:13:10] <jdh> no chrome places near here anymore
[00:13:26] <pfred1> jdh DIY
[00:13:35] <andypugh> My computer is http://www.maclife.com/files/u129772/imac27_full.jpg I own it because I wanted it. And that is all there is to the matter.
[00:13:37] <pfred1> there really isn't a whole lot to it
[00:13:59] <jdh> macs are nice hardware
[00:14:20] <jdh> I doubt you could convince crotechedy old guys with $5 computers of their worth :)
[00:14:47] <pfred1> jdh do you know how many PCs I can buy for what one Mac costs?
[00:15:03] <r00t4rd3d> 1 sweet one
[00:15:04] <jdh> 1 that was as good
[00:15:08] <jdh> heh
[00:15:16] <andypugh> Yeah, it's like having a 2.0L Mercedes and explaining why to the owner of a slightly faster 2.0L Hyundai owner.
[00:15:24] <r00t4rd3d> you can get video cards that cost more then a whole apple computer
[00:15:52] <pfred1> the way GL sucks up resources i could use one
[00:17:10] <andypugh> I seem to have used the word "owner" twice, and this is now about slavery, I guess. Why is it that youe can't own Canadians?
[00:17:48] <jdh> you can buy them around the border
[00:18:05] <pfred1> if you're a drunken sailor
[00:18:37] <jdh> http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/253709_10151325199971956_126558527_n.png
[00:19:15] <andypugh> jdh: The reference: http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/drlaura.asp
[00:19:30] <jdh> yeah, I know taht one
[00:19:46] <jdh> xtians don't usually take that well.
[00:19:48] <pfred1> is Dr. Laura still alive?
[00:20:23] <pfred1> she had her 15 minutes
[00:21:17] <pfred1> the only way I would have liked Apple is if I could have gotten in on their IPO
[00:21:25] <pfred1> I wanted to but I was pretty young
[00:21:35] <jdh> I don't believe you
[00:21:57] <pfred1> jdh they had a full page ad in Popular COmputing I believe it was
[00:22:16] <pfred1> when I saw it I knew I was missing out on something
[00:22:58] * pfred1 was a pretty astute child
[00:24:05] <pfred1> I foresaw the whole PC revolution and CGI
[00:24:43] <pfred1> I used to think how cool it would be to make movies of my favorite sci-fi stories
[00:24:47] <pfred1> now they do!
[00:27:49] <andypugh> A friend of mine bought some Apple stock in about 1993. $5 a share then, $461 now. I suspect he still has them though. I lodged wigh him for a while and there were 20 Macs in the spare bedroom. Those that wouldn't fit in the loft, or were too old to be in the front room and usable. He had (and still has, 10 years on) a stack of 6 Lisas on the sideboard)
[00:28:31] <pfred1> I hope he didn't pay full price for those Lisas
[00:29:02] <jdh> apple has had 3 or 4 2:1 splits
[00:29:08] <andypugh> No, I think he paid about £100 for the set.
[00:29:10] <pfred1> only Apple could put out a $10,000 PC
[00:29:41] <pfred1> which in about $30,000 in today's currency
[00:29:51] <andypugh> At the time they were only very expensive
[00:30:02] <andypugh> Much cheaper than a PDP11
[00:30:02] <pfred1> they cost $10,000
[00:30:29] <pfred1> I don't know I had a PDP 11/34 and when it was new it only cost $25,000
[00:30:47] <jdh> yuck, a unibus machine
[00:30:56] <pfred1> hey it was 7 feet tall!
[00:30:59] <andypugh> Yes, and I think that, in general, $25,000 > $10,000
[00:31:50] <andypugh> When Apple launched the Lisa computers were a lot more expensive.
[00:32:04] <jdh> indeed, and the Lisa was extraordinary
[00:32:24] <pfred1> it is not always good to be ahead of your time
[00:32:42] <jdh> I still have two pdp11/73s running... I win!
[00:32:50] <jdh> well, I guess I really lose.
[00:32:53] <pfred1> no one was going to shell out that kind of money back then or even now for a PC
[00:33:24] <andypugh> jdh: Indeed you do. The place I work retired the last PDP11 2 years ago,
[00:33:45] <jdh> I'm planning on replacing one this year.
[00:33:59] <pfred1> jdh Intel Atom?
[00:34:11] <jdh> nah, i5
[00:34:27] <andypugh> Though it had been happily doing the same job (running an engine dynamometer) 24/7 since 1985.
[00:34:28] <jdh> with 3 2ghz digitizers
[00:34:53] <jdh> mine have been running off the same floppy disk since the early 90s
[00:35:04] <pfred1> yeah you can't get a modern PC to last that many years
[00:35:26] <andypugh> Those Lisas still boot :-)
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[00:35:51] <pfred1> I have an 8086 that still booted the last time I tried
[00:36:00] <pfred1> although I did have to spin up the HDD by hand on it
[00:36:19] <pfred1> it had a bit of a stiction issue
[00:36:30] <andypugh> zenek: How far is 7i80 from being merged? I am not up to date on the requirements.
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[00:36:45] <pfred1> but you can access the spindle from outside it and get it with a pencil eraser like an indian starting a fire
[00:37:21] <Tom_itx> i had the lid off a 20meg segate to figure out why it wasn't working n all... turned out to be the power plug so i soldered it up, put the lid back on and it worked for another 6-8 yrs
[00:38:36] <pfred1> I found a PC called a Nirtostar? and it only has 2 5.35 floppy drives I bet if I had boot disks for it it might run
[00:38:42] <pfred1> Northstar
[00:38:58] <pfred1> when I fired it up it displayed a prompt
[00:39:45] <pfred1> it is a Z-80
[00:40:40] <andypugh> I had a Hitech-10 that I pulled out of a skip. As a comparision it cost exactly the same as a Lisa.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitechapel_Computer_Works
[00:41:46] <andypugh> You have to love a computer manufacturer that names models after HHGTTG (MG1 after the Milliard Gargantubrain) with an OS called 42-nix.
[00:41:52] <pfred1> that is it? the whole machine?
[00:43:15] <micges> andypugh: it will be not merged until xenomai port will be merged
[00:43:50] <andypugh> micges: Ah, so RTAI falls into the "too hard" category?
[00:43:51] <pfred1> is LinuxCNC going to use different realtime than RTAI?
[00:44:11] <micges> now 7i80 is xenomai only for now
[00:44:11] <pfred1> hey i just built RTAI and it was no picnic
[00:44:20] <andypugh> pfred1: Optionally, yes.
[00:45:22] <micges> andypugh: for now yes, I'll retry after next rtai version
[00:45:39] <pfred1> I couldn't even get the RTAI CVS to compile
[00:45:47] <pfred1> stuff is a mess
[00:46:15] <pfred1> they don't call it magma for nothing
[00:47:33] <pfred1> there does seem to be one fellow that is forking RTAI to a git now
[00:48:04] <andypugh> Does the 7i80 work through a switch? I am trying to imagine what the max pin count is..
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[00:48:31] <micges> no idea, didn't test that yet
[00:49:30] <andypugh> At some point I guess you hit the Gigabit Ethernet / 1mS servo thread point. So I guess if you want more than a million pins you would need two ports.
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[02:16:50] <jdh> I just broke 2 end mills :(
[02:17:12] <Jymmm> DO IT AGAIN! DO IT AGAIN!
[02:17:28] <jdh> I thought about it
[02:17:31] <Jymmm> oh wait... DONT DO THAT!
[02:17:44] <jdh> being cold and in a hurry leads to bad decisions
[02:22:57] <Tom_itx> keep your fingers away from those decisions
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[03:19:38] <mgb_> Howdy. First time caller.... :)
[03:19:55] <mgb_> using livecd 10.04/parallel port driver
[03:20:07] <jdh> welcome to the show
[03:20:12] <mgb_> thanks.
[03:20:25] <mgb_> using stepconf to create initial config
[03:20:39] <mgb_> during that process there is a "test this axis" button.
[03:20:50] <jdh> and a fine button it is.
[03:21:12] <mgb_> I was hoping I could use that to verify the settings...but it doesn't seem to cause anything to happen....except some bit of noise....no movement
[03:21:21] <mgb_> so it seems everything is talking....just not in the right way.
[03:21:31] <jdh> are your step timing set correctly?
[03:21:39] <jdh> got docs for the drives?
[03:21:52] <mgb_> That is a bit of a puzzle...
[03:22:08] <archivist> do you have pull ups on the parallel port pins
[03:22:29] <mgb_> not sure what a pullup would look like...
[03:23:01] <jdh> what kind of drivers are you using?
[03:23:48] <mgb_> Yes. That is correct.
[03:24:04] <mgb_> not my gear...working on it for a friend...who has less knowledge than I
[03:24:23] <mgb_> Does tb6560 help?
[03:25:15] <jdh> 3 or 4 axis chinese tb6560 board?
[03:26:37] <jdh> make sure the pin-outs match your stepconfig settings (each axis step/dir), check timings (plenty of info on web for 6560 timings, be conservative)
[03:26:43] <mgb_> http://www.savebase.com/infobase/downloads/TB6560/TB6560_3axis_Driver.doc maybe helps?
[03:27:02] <jdh> do the motors lock-up when the board is powered?
[03:27:05] <mgb_> three axis
[03:27:41] <mgb_> although the manual controller looks like it has a fourth C-/C+ set of buttons...
[03:29:16] <jdh> they are generic
[03:29:30] <mgb_> it just dawned on me as I'm reading the info again, that possibly the amperage for the motors is not set right....
[03:30:01] <jdh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?TB6560
[03:31:05] <mgb_> Thanks jdh...I'll start there.
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[03:40:24] <mgb_> The tb6560 hal files go in the config dir, what about the rf* files?
[03:40:55] <mgb_> rf-30_1.hal and rf-30_1.ini to be exact
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[03:58:44] <mgb_> What is the preferred driver board?
[03:59:42] <r00t4rd3d> tb6560 for cheap, Gecko 540 for better/more
[04:00:13] <mgb_> so lots of folks use the tb6560?
[04:00:24] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[04:00:27] <r00t4rd3d> I do
[04:00:41] <r00t4rd3d> a few others here do
[04:00:49] <mgb_> any way I can manually control the board from within linuxcnc?
[04:00:57] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[04:01:01] <r00t4rd3d> the arrow keys
[04:01:04] <mgb_> I just want to ensure that the software is talking to the board.
[04:01:27] <mgb_> you mean from the physically connected control device?
[04:01:36] <mgb_> or from the keyboard on the computer...
[04:01:41] <r00t4rd3d> keyboard
[04:02:18] <r00t4rd3d> arrow keys move your X and Y Page Up/Down controls your Z
[04:02:27] <r00t4rd3d> shift is turbo
[04:03:08] <mgb_> hmmmm...doesn't move the motors at all, no noise as if it is trying....
[04:03:27] <r00t4rd3d> second icon in from the left, red button
[04:03:39] <mgb_> Yep. Pressed that....
[04:03:50] <mgb_> then pressed the power looking button.
[04:03:59] <r00t4rd3d> where did you get the info for stepconf?
[04:04:17] <mgb_> did use it..downloaded config files from wiki
[04:04:24] <mgb_> didn't use it....
[04:04:52] <r00t4rd3d> you got the parallel cable and power hooked up ?
[04:05:06] <mgb_> yep.
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[04:06:17] <mgb_> the manual controller that is hooked up has all lights on...that doesn't seem good.
[04:06:22] <r00t4rd3d> run stepconf again and check against these settings
[04:06:25] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.georgegardner.info/software/tb6560-ebay-3-axis-driver-and-linuxcnc-emc.html
[04:07:38] <r00t4rd3d> just choose to open your existing conf and find the ini file you first made with it
[04:07:57] <mgb_> I'll run stepconf with those settings.
[04:08:04] <r00t4rd3d> its what I used
[04:08:53] <r00t4rd3d> your xyz stuff will obviously be somewhat different
[04:09:41] <mgb_> do all the led lights from the blue manual controller come on when you are using yours?
[04:10:17] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
[04:10:27] <mgb_> k
[04:10:28] <r00t4rd3d> wait, i dont have the manual remote
[04:11:04] <r00t4rd3d> you talking about this?
[04:11:04] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Axis-Handle-Remote-Controller-For-5-Axis-TB6560-Stepper-Driver-Board-/221165453837?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item337e7d020d
[04:11:29] <mgb_> yep
[04:11:37] <r00t4rd3d> dont have it
[04:11:54] <r00t4rd3d> i personally would unhook that till i got just the board working
[04:12:48] <r00t4rd3d> dont ever unhook your motors when the board is powered either
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[04:18:40] <mgb_> It doesn't work when the parallel port is active anyway.
[04:19:05] <mgb_> Changing the pinouts was the key.
[04:19:14] <r00t4rd3d> working now?
[04:19:24] <mgb_> How in the heck would I have ever figured out what pins were where?
[04:19:25] <mgb_> yes.
[04:19:36] <r00t4rd3d> they are listed in the maunual
[04:19:41] <mgb_> X Y and Z are wrong for the moment...
[04:19:50] <r00t4rd3d> reversed?
[04:19:50] <mgb_> no manual...only dorky CD.
[04:20:32] <r00t4rd3d> in the Parallel Conf part of stepconf you can invert the axis if they are reversed
[04:21:35] <mgb_> not reversed...X is Z, Y is X, etc.
[04:21:44] <mgb_> I can just change pinouts..no biggie.
[04:21:53] <mgb_> This is what I needed to keep moving forward.
[04:22:07] <mgb_> Thanks so much for the help and not saying RTFM....
[04:22:23] <mgb_> I'm willing to, just didn't know what I needed to be reading about!!! :)
[04:22:55] <mgb_> I'm going to see if I could have found the pinouts in the documentation that I have......now that I know what works.
[04:23:22] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.fozztexx.com/CNC/HY-TB3DV-M_3Axis_Driver.pdf
[04:23:31] <r00t4rd3d> that manual lists the pins right under the picture
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[04:26:18] <AR__> oh that driver :)
[04:26:23] <AR__> i have one sitting right here
[04:27:30] <r00t4rd3d> id buy another one
[04:27:48] <r00t4rd3d> mines made me hundreds
[04:28:09] <AR__> :D
[04:28:14] <r00t4rd3d> not bad for $39.95
[04:28:25] <AR__> when i bought it, it was over $75 :(
[04:28:29] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[04:28:42] <AR__> about 2 years ago
[04:28:46] <r00t4rd3d> i got the newest revision at the time
[04:29:05] <AR__> the diy CNC scene has really blown up lately
[04:29:44] <AR__> i dont even know what the different revisions are or what mine is
[04:30:03] <AR__> i blew one of the tb6560s on it right when i first got it
[04:30:12] <AR__> but replaced it and it has worked fine ever since
[04:30:30] <AR__> until recently, the Z axis is not running smoothly in one direction
[04:30:32] <AR__> very strange
[04:30:38] <mgb_> Thanks again r00t
[04:30:59] <r00t4rd3d> np
[04:31:14] <r00t4rd3d> see the newest ones?
[04:31:15] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-3-Axis-TB6560-Motor-Driver-Stepper-Board-Controller-With-Box-For-CNC-Router-/380604303957?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589dc8ca55
[04:31:22] <AR__> it is definitely a problem with the driver board, because all other axis work fine with the same motor
[04:31:35] <AR__> and i tried with EMC and mach3
[04:32:12] <AR__> and the Z axis gets really choppy in one direction
[04:32:17] <mgb_> ok. Had I decifered the Mach3 manual information, I probably could have figured it out.... Just never looked in there cause I wasn't planning on using it.
[04:33:30] <r00t4rd3d> what machine do you have? DIY or a kit
[04:34:11] <AR__> they have evolved
[04:34:16] <r00t4rd3d> yeah
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[04:34:33] <AR__> mine is the one pictured in te manual
[04:34:35] <r00t4rd3d> i like how the new ones estop and limit setup is
[04:34:48] <AR__> yeah
[04:35:13] <r00t4rd3d> i might try onhe
[04:35:14] <r00t4rd3d> one
[04:35:36] <AR__> i'd just buy geckos or something at this point
[04:36:18] <AR__> you can get the little ones for $65 per axis
[04:36:49] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gecko-Diver-G540-4-Axis-Driver-/290884676661?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ba13ec35
[04:36:58] <r00t4rd3d> buy me that
[04:37:13] <AR__> yeah i wish
[04:38:00] <AR__> it's funny that even that only is limited to 3.5A output
[04:38:23] <AR__> so you cant use it for really big motors
[04:38:43] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/gecko-g251x-stepper-motor-driver-4-cnc-milling-machine-mill-lathe-router-/160720512970?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item256bb067ca
[04:38:48] <r00t4rd3d> those the ones you talking about?
[04:38:54] <AR__> yeah
[04:39:35] <AR__> i mean if you are buying 3 you may as well just get a g540
[04:40:17] <r00t4rd3d> save almost 100
[04:40:59] <r00t4rd3d> how you hook them little ones to a parallel cable?
[04:41:20] <r00t4rd3d> nvm
[04:42:33] <AR__> just like the other geckos'
[04:42:41] <AR__> you need to break out the connections
[04:42:56] <AR__> that is what i like about the chinese tb6560 board
[04:42:58] <r00t4rd3d> tb6560
[04:43:02] <r00t4rd3d> fk it
[04:43:02] <AR__> all in the parallel
[04:43:04] <AR__> cable
[04:43:07] <AR__> lol
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[06:36:04] <R2E4_> wheres skunkworks?
[06:40:33] <R2E4_> http://irmtl.com/LinuxCNC/kearney.jpg
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[06:47:07] <mazafaka> key arneey gee peg
[06:49:14] <mazafaka> this is old machine but no one says it is worn off. Besides, you probably can renew the surfaces (on which table slides) using another equipment in this shop or another.
[06:50:45] <mazafaka> R2E4_ If you decide to clean it, what will you use? Kerosene or solvent?
[07:04:06] <ProxDem> damn R2E4_ you're at it late tonite =)
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[07:17:52] <mrsun> http://www.youtube.com/user/Eksmast/videos?view=0 its in russian but google translates it fine .. if someone needs tips on grinding drills =)
[07:18:11] <mrsun> and other stuff :P
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[07:37:24] <mazafaka> Learning something is nice, but in reality you need to perform a job or certain task.
[07:39:53] <mazafaka> For example it is not said anywhere why one would need a very low back angle on drill bit. Thatis for vertical spindle which isn't tight in axial directions and by the end of drilling just falls down and the drill is being blocked from spinning with uncut material.
[07:40:59] <mazafaka> You learn this all during work, actually. This way it is safer for your free time.
[07:43:02] <mazafaka> I meant the ability to learn more makes you nervous, sometimes.
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[07:58:59] <DJ9DJ> moin
[07:59:32] <ProxDem> moin
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[11:16:32] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[14:38:28] <andypugh> Has anyone seen any neat mountings for inductive proximity sensors?
[14:39:06] <JT-Shop> I use a through hole usually with a nut on each side...
[14:39:13] <andypugh> I see lots mounted with nuts on a bit of angle.
[14:39:42] <andypugh> I was thinking that something tidier might be nice :-)
[14:39:43] <JT-Shop> aye, that's what I do mosly... I did edge mount one in a plate for one application
[14:40:05] <andypugh> Ideally I would like to bury them inside the machine frame, but that looks harder.
[14:40:15] <andypugh> (It's difficult to mill the mill)
[14:40:38] <archivist> iirc the "bit of angle" is usually in the prox sensors catalogue too
[14:43:11] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/251368
[14:43:19] <andypugh> It looks lik an arrangement prone to getting tangled up in swarf.
[14:43:32] <JT-Shop> the little stepped block is the prox mount with a nut on either side
[14:44:16] <JT-Shop> it allowed me to move the prox in and out with a 90 degree connector to set the home position of the servo
[14:44:17] <andypugh> I guess it is nice to be able to see the end light up.
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[14:47:20] <JT-Shop> this mornings project http://imagebin.org/251369
[14:47:35] <andypugh> What I would like to do is bury the proxes in the actual slideways.
[14:47:58] <andypugh> Loading ramp?
[14:48:32] <JT-Shop> yea, my Spyder has very low ground clearance so I had lengthen the ramps for my trailer
[14:49:17] <JT-Shop> I think the CHNC has a couple of buried proxes IIRC
[14:57:44] <Tom_itx> andypugh, are you all done with those .ngc files? i'm cleaning house a bit...
[14:59:02] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Yes, all finished thanks.
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[15:12:23] <L84Supper> http://imagebin.org/251372 sent someone this for an example pic, and this is what they proposed http://imagebin.org/251373
[15:14:06] <archivist> hmm some have little clue of bending forces
[15:15:07] <L84Supper> and this is from a company that makes automation components
[15:15:45] <andypugh> Twist and Shout.
[15:15:57] <archivist> a lot of automation co's just move light loads
[15:16:13] <JT-Shop> most do pick and place suff
[15:16:20] <archivist> force...what is force
[15:17:04] <L84Supper> told them we wanted < +- 5um repeatability
[15:17:23] <andypugh> If the very bottom layer of their proposal was doubled up to give a decent span, the rest is maybe OK.
[15:17:57] <andypugh> As long as you don't mind wild oscillations any time an axis moves.
[15:18:00] <archivist> heh 5 microns, thermal effects will be difficult there
[15:18:26] <L84Supper> it's temp controlled
[15:18:33] <archivist> a light wind will bend the column
[15:18:53] <andypugh> Yes, they probably need to keep the door closed.
[15:19:03] <L84Supper> hehe
[15:19:18] <andypugh> OK, to the workshop!
[15:19:40] <Tom_itx> make it happen
[15:19:47] <archivist> the cable strain will bend the thing just a bit!
[15:21:37] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/251374 Built JT Tough
[15:22:36] <L84Supper> nice rims
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[15:22:47] <archivist> I pity the wheels
[15:23:06] <JT-Shop> Dodge K car rear axle, wheels and hub caps
[15:23:11] <archivist> specially the little front ones
[15:23:20] <L84Supper> JT-Shop: are you clearing a small forest?
[15:23:27] <JT-Shop> they are just for moving around in the shop
[15:23:30] <archivist> rain forest
[15:24:05] <JT-Shop> naw, I just split 2 cords a year
[15:24:21] <Tom_itx> so much beef for 2 cords?
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[15:24:50] <Tom_itx> hell, i thought you were going into the wood splitting business...
[15:25:17] <JT-Shop> lol
[15:25:42] <JT-Shop> I got carried away a bit...
[15:26:22] <L84Supper> if an archaeologist were to dig this up in 1000 years, what might they assume about it or us?
[15:26:26] <Tom_itx> you should add a kickstand on the left end so you can stand it up when not in use to conserve floor space
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[15:28:04] <archivist> L84Supper, get JT to make your machine...may be a little too strong though :)
[15:28:44] <L84Supper> his ram is more of what I expected the z-axis to look like
[15:28:53] <Tom_itx> JT drives a frontloader to work
[15:29:08] * JT-Shop walks to work
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[15:39:41] <Tom_itx> mmm, snowing again
[16:03:40] <L84Supper> Tom_itx: this year is going to go from snow one day to 85 F and humid the next
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[16:26:29] <JT-Shop> they work http://imagebin.org/251384
[16:26:49] <JT-Shop> http://imagebin.org/251385
[16:27:39] * JT-Shop goes to clean up the mess and start on the next project for the day
[16:28:23] <DJ9DJ> yeah, nice
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[16:28:55] <DJ9DJ> they need some paint ;)
[16:29:49] <JT-Shop> I'm not sure how to match black/rust
[16:29:56] <JT-Shop> oh and dirt too
[16:31:44] <DJ9DJ> make them red, so you find them in the woods ;)
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[16:51:05] <JT-Shop> custom_postgui.hal:2: Pin 'halui.jog.0.moins' does not exist
[16:51:17] <JT-Shop> so hal is not multi-lingual
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[17:44:17] <IchGuckLive> Hi all
[17:45:45] <IchGuckLive> mountons of snow today in europ
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[17:52:50] <pcw_home> not a lot of snow here
[17:53:03] <IchGuckLive> @all im searching for a good shape to get a cube out of 6 equal metal pieces 2mm Thick that sticks together
[17:53:31] <IchGuckLive> 4x4 inch or 100x100 mm
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[18:15:07] <IchGuckLive> for your dxf archiv -> http://www.dxf-downloads.de/downloads/dxf-mit-bilder/
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[18:36:34] <IchGuckLive> hi nick
[18:36:44] <IchGuckLive> Nick001-Shop: what are you selling
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[18:37:37] <archivist> shop is short for workshop, not a selling shop
[18:38:01] <IchGuckLive> ah at the mill
[18:38:08] <IchGuckLive> ATM
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[19:05:17] <IchGuckLive> more free dxf https://freedxf.com/product-image-gallery
[19:09:19] <IchGuckLive> im off by for today !
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[19:12:01] <Nick001-Shop> Just got back - shop means the computer at my machine shop where I make mostly spur gears and timing belt pulleys alot of the time
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[19:30:57] <L84Supper> anyone having good luck with an open source 5-axis CAM tool?
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[19:37:25] <jdh> I've never had any luck with open source any--axis cam tool
[19:37:56] <archivist> I hand code my 5 axis
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[19:47:01] <L84Supper> I have to automate and customize this so MasterCAM is out
[19:47:53] <L84Supper> http://openscam.com/ has 5-axis simulation
[19:48:11] <archivist> is the job regular enough that its just a scripting job ?
[19:48:49] <L84Supper> the parts change often
[19:50:03] <L84Supper> looks like something to write. I just have to see if it could just be added to pycam or if it's just best to start from scratch
[19:50:50] <L84Supper> openscam has some but not all of the Linuxcnc g-code implemented
[19:50:51] <archivist> I only see 3 axis on open scam
[19:51:21] <archivist> No 5-axis simulation. See ticket #15.
[19:55:53] <L84Supper> http://code.google.com/p/opencamlib/ or build something using this and add 5-axis support
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[19:57:08] <L84Supper> http://heeks.net/ heeksCNC used those libs
[19:57:53] <archivist> what do you mean by the parts change often, if the parts are classes of parts then it is more scriptable
[19:58:21] <archivist> heeks has slowed to a stop
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[19:59:00] <archivist> dan went back to svn on google code as the git fork was a mess
[19:59:14] <L84Supper> yeah, the question is where to start? restart heeks where they left off or just start fresh
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[19:59:45] <L84Supper> pycam is active
[19:59:50] -!- tandoori_ has quit [Ping timeout: 258 seconds]
[20:00:19] <L84Supper> or not
[20:00:47] <L84Supper> http://sourceforge.net/projects/pycam/files/ 2011-06-13
[20:01:16] <archivist> I have seen some people try to speed it up and disappear
[20:01:35] <L84Supper> this is a funded project
[20:01:35] <archivist> said to be very slow
[20:02:07] <L84Supper> the toolpath generation is slow or the devs there? :)
[20:02:21] <archivist> toolpath generation
[20:02:46] <andypugh> I am not sure how much that matters
[20:02:58] <archivist> a lot if it is days
[20:03:04] <L84Supper> wow
[20:03:21] <archivist> ask Thetawaves :)
[20:04:12] <andypugh> OK, it matters when path generation time is greater than machining time
[20:04:59] <archivist> there was another person in #cam who was using cython iirc to get some speed
[20:05:51] <archivist> and that was on 3 axis stuff, and you want 5
[20:06:23] <L84Supper> whats the best approach if in a few months there could be a full time dev to even get it working on the GPU for real time toolpath generation?
[20:06:34] <archivist> but there is another project :) we are waiting on permissions
[20:10:53] <L84Supper> long term it would support toolpath generation for robot arms and 5-axis cnc
[20:11:41] <L84Supper> the mastercam package is ~$25k with the robot add-in
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[20:13:10] <L84Supper> the price actually isn't a problem as much as not being able to customize it
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[20:18:26] <archivist> not sure "a few months" and "a full time dev" can manage what you want
[20:20:01] <archivist> considering the man years in commercial packages
[20:20:12] <t12> i think processing time isnt the problem
[20:20:25] <t12> it seems more like a symbolic geometry solver kind of thing
[20:20:40] <t12> aka dev math nightmare
[20:21:02] <t12> robot arm ik pathing is suprisingly hard
[20:21:07] <ReadError> i have some sad news
[20:21:11] <ReadError> i think my drill is broke
[20:21:13] <t12> esp with arbitrary constraints
[20:21:15] <ReadError> alot of slop on the chuck ;/
[20:21:25] <ReadError> i think its under warranty still
[20:22:03] <archivist> well all I have see so far are mainly iterative solvers finding the constraints and that is where the time is
[20:24:42] <t12> the problem space gets big quick
[20:28:29] <archivist> there seems an expectation that 5 axis should be as easy as throwing a solid at a slicer then to a 3d printer....
[20:29:10] <t12> i run into lots of scientists and programmers who think mills are 3d printers
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[20:30:10] <t12> in the load your file and hit play sense
[20:30:37] <archivist> very different problems, tooling, path, fixtures, and can the machine reach the angle, is the item strong enough for the cutting forces.....
[20:32:07] <t12> how do normal people do this
[20:32:10] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/eh4wale4up3hf3p/FAaen-eIpS
[20:32:16] <t12> esp for deep cuts
[20:32:46] <t12> thats a bore path with a big ballnose cause it was the longest milling bit i had
[20:32:56] <archivist> I cannot view that
[20:33:21] <t12> hm
[20:33:59] <t12> https://www.dropbox.com/sc/yfat6vodi7ehmus/WSMRPTPBMX
[20:34:47] <t12> imagine boring path with the spindle axis parallel with that arc centerpoint axis
[20:35:40] <t12> normally would it be single point fly cuttered or something
[20:35:41] <archivist> last time I machined a bearing shell I used a single point boring tool on a horizontal mill
[20:35:51] <t12> if say you had to do a 1ft cut like that
[20:36:18] <t12> gotcha
[20:37:26] <t12> trying to make die grinder toolpost mount
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[20:37:39] <L84Supper> archivist: in a few months there would be a full time dev. i can see the development going on for years with many devs in a team
[20:37:42] <t12> as an attempt to regrind thse lathe jaws
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[20:38:16] <archivist> t12, I have done similar with a dremel
[20:38:38] <t12> did it work well?
[20:38:39] <archivist> L84Supper, interesting :)
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[20:38:53] <L84Supper> MasterCAM is for cutting tools, software for 5-axis or robot arms for additive manufacturing doesn't exist yet
[20:39:09] <archivist> t12 not too bad...or good, was better than it used to be
[20:39:33] <t12> run into any problems in the grind operation?
[20:39:50] <archivist> the dremel bearings
[20:40:11] <t12> 5axis additive pathing would def be easier then subtractiv
[20:40:23] <archivist> and mount, made the system too flexible
[20:40:48] <t12> i wonder what the die grinder runout is/will be
[20:40:53] <L84Supper> additive manufacturing might be used for 3d parts that have been cast or machined. A 3D printer might overmold or finish the complex multi-material part off
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[20:41:11] <L84Supper> there isn't any standard software to do this
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[20:41:21] <t12> i could always add bearings
[20:41:26] <archivist> preload your bearings so you dont have runout after dressing the grinding tool
[20:42:10] <L84Supper> additive manufacturing needs to work with pre-existing parts that are scanned or with their parametric models and then add on to them
[20:42:13] <t12> spring and plates between the grinder collet and body?
[20:42:54] <t12> wonder if thatd be hard to make stable
[20:46:51] <archivist> L84Supper, I think you are adding another can of worms there, as you need to sense the tolerance of the pre existing lump before you add to it
[20:48:50] <L84Supper> archivist: yes, and how it effects the 3d printer depends on the tech used to apply it
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[20:50:04] <L84Supper> an injket or nozzle for instance needs 1-3mm or clearance between it self and the surface of the object
[20:51:50] <L84Supper> if the part gets placed into a tank full of polymer and a laser or dlp scanner then interacts with it as it gets dipped or drawn up out of the tank won't have the same issues
[20:52:00] <archivist> has to be consistent to get the time of flight and where the ink lands right
[20:53:12] <L84Supper> that and also alignment since you are probably making several print passes (interlacing)
[20:53:47] <L84Supper> all this software has to be developed
[20:54:19] <pcw_home> painting a curve in 2 dimensions might require "lead" on the longer time of flight drops
[20:54:21] <L84Supper> it's similar to CAM and creating tool paths only the tools aren't cutting but spraying or projecting
[20:55:35] <archivist> reminds my of my old job :)
[20:56:06] <L84Supper> the 3d printers out there now pretty much only think and operate in 2.5D
[20:56:22] <L84Supper> and most only have one type of tech in the printer
[20:57:17] <L84Supper> additive manufacturing systems will have multiple techs to produce parts with multiple materials
[20:58:16] <archivist> has anyone used glass/carnon fibre filled plastic yet
[20:58:22] <archivist> carbon
[20:58:46] <L84Supper> I make composite resins like that
[20:59:12] <archivist> but in additive printing I mean
[20:59:27] <L84Supper> carbon, fibergalss, silicas, aluminum oxide etc etc
[21:00:48] <L84Supper> yeah, that's what we are doing, most of the R&D is going into making materials and then software
[21:01:41] <L84Supper> archivist: the main problem has been the old patent holders just making old slow machines with limited materials
[21:01:59] <L84Supper> some printers lock you out from using your own materials, just like inkjets
[21:02:35] <archivist> some of the patents should be expiring?
[21:03:08] <L84Supper> yeah, but there are overlapping and new patents that include old claims
[21:03:45] <L84Supper> and the USPTO's attitude is "let the courts settle it"
[21:04:06] <L84Supper> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130319-eff-partnered-with-ask-patents-to-fight-for-open-3d-printing.html
[21:06:16] <L84Supper> if things don't change in the west China is going to end up with all the tech
[21:06:24] <L84Supper> all the good tech
[21:06:46] <archivist> but they export it back :)
[21:08:18] <L84Supper> until somebody files a suit or petition with the customs office
[21:08:53] <archivist> but so far plastic printing has only lost me money
[21:11:51] <L84Supper> cnc hot melt guns are giving the industry a bad image
[21:15:26] <L84Supper> http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130323-450-fab-labs-in-us-and-100-innovation-houses-in-shanghai.html
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[21:21:13] <Connor> jdh: What's up?
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[21:28:10] <t12> the lockout material thing
[21:28:17] <t12> will go the way of clone inkjet cartridges i'm guessing
[21:28:23] <t12> that seems to be how they're implmented
[21:28:27] <t12> that stuff is alwats breakable
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[21:34:11] <L84Supper> t12: those are all old slow printers anyway
[21:34:30] <t12> i'm just saying that generally media lockout will end up being addon ic's and such
[21:34:34] <t12> to auth cartridges
[21:34:40] <t12> and they're always beatable
[21:34:49] <t12> hard to make it really integral
[21:35:04] <L84Supper> we just went to China to make better printers to solve that problem
[21:35:45] <L84Supper> it's surprising how many users though don't go around the locked down cartridge or similar issues
[21:38:42] <t12> its a pain in the ass
[21:38:46] <t12> usually its a companies unit
[21:38:50] <t12> who cares how much they pay for media
[21:39:40] <L84Supper> but that is also why the tech has been for protos only, the materials have been to expensive and the printers far too slow
[21:41:11] <L84Supper> is anyone going to have a business making housewares or other plastic items using most FFF printers?
[21:41:39] <L84Supper> even parts suitable for the tech are churned out far too slowly
[21:42:15] <L84Supper> and with filament at even $15/Lb the pellets for injection molding are only ~$2/lb
[21:49:56] <t12> find a plastics manufacturer
[21:50:02] <t12> that will manufacture directly to filament
[21:50:08] <t12> with no pellet intermediate
[21:50:22] <t12> and give them a big enough order to be worth adding the process
[21:52:35] <L84Supper> most FFF applications are easily replaced with much faster DLP SLA
[21:53:57] <L84Supper> FFF is great for use along with SLA for the extrusion of materials that don't work well as a photopolymer
[21:54:57] <L84Supper> or from a jet or micro-nozzle as an aerosol
[21:55:21] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:01:27] <gene77> Hi everybody; I have an eps file created by potrace, and now need to make gcode out of it. Is there such a tool?
[22:03:14] <Tom_L> what's eps?
[22:03:41] <Tom_L> postscript?
[22:04:20] <Tom_L> will inkscape read it?
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[22:17:46] <gene77> I must be out of memory, inscape runs, but can't show me a file list to open
[22:18:20] <gene77> image2gcode is still munching along
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[22:28:11] <r00t4rd3d> i could covert that to dxf for u
[22:28:34] <r00t4rd3d> aspire reads eps
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[22:31:24] <gene77> image finally completed, but it is not even close to usable. And inkscape says that directory is empty even when set for All Files. :(
[22:32:26] <r00t4rd3d> can you post the eps file someplace?
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[22:34:20] <gene77> yes, hang on
[22:40:13] <gene77> imagebin.org won't take the eps, and pastebin.com won't let me. Alternative?
[22:40:31] <r00t4rd3d> https://anonfiles.com/
[22:40:36] <r00t4rd3d> zip or rar it
[22:42:44] <gene77> hell its only 1100 bytes, but it won't take an encapsulated postscript either
[22:43:34] <gene77> And an eps is already smunched far better than bzip can do.
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[22:47:35] <gene77> screw it, I have queries to the mailing list because I have done this, just can't recall its name.
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[23:01:02] <gene77> inkscape was able to import the .pnm version, but seems unable to actually do anything with it.
[23:01:27] <andypugh> t12: I guess you have only ever had good vices. There is no way you would get away with holding the work like that with a cheap vice, and I still think that you are lucky to get away with it with the Kurt.
[23:01:47] <gene77> to say I'm not an inscape guru would be in the running for comment of the year
[23:01:55] <andypugh> t12: Much better to grip the longer sides, and being in the middle of the jaws works a lot better.
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[23:08:11] <gene77> I just found I had mcodegenerator.py, but when I try to open it, lcnc goes away, and now I've lost my references to carving this thing. Grrrr.
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[23:26:51] <gene77> and it turns out that needs blender
[23:34:04] <gene77> install blender, but I can't find a file it will open, everything in the file open menu is ghosted out
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[23:44:43] <andypugh> I wish I knew what this guy was on about, and what the coloured pens indicate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wo_jodq41hY
[23:44:52] <andypugh> He does take proper big cuts though.
[23:47:03] <t12> andypugh: may be true
[23:47:14] <t12> that was def an iffy grab
[23:47:22] <t12> i dont know how else i would have grabbed it for that cut though
[23:47:51] <andypugh> you couldn't rotate 90 and cut in the Y?
[23:47:53] <t12> could have remounted the whole vise sideways
[23:47:55] <t12> i guess
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[23:49:26] <t12> i usually zero to the vise corner hence the mounting in the edge
[23:49:38] <t12> i've had very little work slippage, usually from not tightening well enough
[23:49:50] <t12> or from not drying up the contact surface
[23:50:25] <andypugh> In the middle with a depth stop is probably better.
[23:51:32] <andypugh> But I have never had a decent vice, so I need to compensate.
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[23:52:10] <t12> that vise is very... unused
[23:52:18] <t12> this whole shop is more or less idle other than me
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[23:56:19] <andypugh> I made an interesting tool today. Who can guess what it is for? https://plus.google.com/photos/108164504656404380542/albums/5747722155741347649/5858691569508129186?banner=pwa
[23:56:34] <andypugh> (it's a modified live centre)
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