#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-11-24

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[00:32:57] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/5xYOr.jpeg
[00:34:41] <r00t4rd3d> only in West Virginia
[00:37:47] <jdh> I'm not sure a knife would be enough.
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[00:55:56] <Xabster> she's foxy, she wouldn't even need a knife if she just smiled more
[00:56:17] <andypugh> She doesn't look very fast on her feet, and she had her pants down at the time. Running would work.
[00:57:12] <andypugh> <trying to get back to topic> Was it a CNC knife?
[00:58:21] <andypugh> I was sent a spam about these earlier: http://cubify.com/cube/ I wonder if they are any good. The samples look suspiciously good, and pricing is Ultimaker-comparable.
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[01:06:46] <andypugh> Hmm, will these come in handy, I wonder? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13-Taps-4-5-to-7-MODEL-ENGINEERING-CLOCK-WATCH-MAKERS-/330831010697?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4d07109b89
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[01:10:43] <tjb1> I am going to outbid you.
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[01:10:46] <PCW> not going to take much of a mistake to snap that .7 mm one
[01:11:02] <andypugh> I just want to see it :-)
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[01:14:41] <andypugh> I have used M1.2 screws (holding a ceramic striker onto a piezo element).
[01:15:09] <andypugh> That was a fairly expensive thing. It was gold-plated too :-)
[01:17:05] <andypugh> (The special part of this: http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/dage/products/bondtesters/Pages/4000HSHighSpeedBondtester.aspx )
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[01:19:37] <PCW> 2-56 is the smallest I've used but Ive lost a lot of smaller ones :-)
[01:20:54] <andypugh> PCW: Have you ever seen this sort of thing? http://www.nordson.com/en-us/divisions/dage/products/ExampleProductFamily/Documents/CT%20brochure11%20press%20quality.pdf
[01:21:23] <andypugh> The pictures are in-situ images of BGA and bond wires.
[01:21:36] <tjb1> Smallest I have done so far is M3…that was pretty iffy for me.
[01:22:23] <PCW> No but some of the cards we do are x-rated for BGA soldering inspection (not CT though)
[01:22:40] <PCW> xrayed :-)
[01:22:44] <andypugh> x-rated? Yikes!
[01:23:18] <alex4nder> ~
[01:23:19] <alex4nder> `
[01:23:31] <alex4nder> er
[01:23:53] <andypugh> I helped design the X-ray tubes. Very interesting machines from a motion control POV. If I had known then what I know now I don't think they would have sacked me.
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[01:25:11] <andypugh> mevon: How is it going? Ready to give up yet?
[01:25:39] <mevon> andypugh, no its getting better and better :P
[01:26:13] <andypugh> If it works properly then it will turn 10 years of LinuxCNC recieved-wisdom on its head.
[01:26:34] <andypugh> How long do you buffer for?
[01:27:02] <mevon> i can change the setpoint on the fly
[01:27:59] <mevon> i can buffer usb msg for as large as the arduino serial object can
[01:28:32] <mevon> and I update the position every ms
[01:29:14] <mevon> was trying to get a measure of that time but I kinda forgat to shutdown the com before reprogramming
[01:29:40] <mevon> and that is not something you really want to do with the arduino software
[01:30:52] <andypugh> Does this use ordinary USB, or some sort of realtime-USB?
[01:31:01] <mevon> andypugh, since I use motmod to control the servo, where would be the best place to tweak the integrators settings?
[01:31:15] <mevon> andypugh, its a python script
[01:31:25] <mevon> so I would say pyserial
[01:31:33] <andypugh> About 4 layers up outside the realtime code
[01:33:12] <mevon> so are every other modules running in emc that are python based
[01:33:38] <mevon> wonder if HAL is python
[01:33:51] <andypugh> _if_ the Arduino intercepted the trajectory planner queue then it ought to work. I _think_ this is how AriasRobo use the USB-connected 7i43 to do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BraEMAu5UkY (which is clearly working just fine).
[01:34:27] <andypugh> HAL is C. All realtime code is kernel code, and all kernel code is C.
[01:35:04] <mevon> so is the python machine
[01:37:21] <mevon> Ive been coding for at least 15 years and I never seen something better then Python
[01:38:51] <Jymmm> GO TURTLE!!! GO TURTLE!!! GO TURTLE!!!
[01:39:07] <andypugh> I've been coding for 33+ years (yikes!) but all the C-code I ever wrote is in the LinuxCNC Git repo.
[01:39:12] <PCW> You can certainly use a buffered approach (as Arais does) but you pretty much lose HAL
[01:41:29] <mevon> i think c code will always rule
[01:42:51] <andypugh> There are reasons that there are so many languages, they all do different things.
[01:43:44] <andypugh> Matlab is brilliant for processing numerical data. I wrote an STL slicer (STL to Z-slices) in about 10 lines of code.
[01:44:27] <andypugh> But you couldn't write a device-driver in it. I tried using Matlab to toggle parport bits once. 6Hz.
[01:44:43] <andypugh> VBA in Excel could do 10kHz.
[01:45:15] <andypugh> (except when windows decided to do something else, which killed that approach)
[01:45:30] <mevon> try python one day
[01:45:42] <mevon> maybe it ll change your mind?
[01:45:50] <andypugh> I have tried Python.
[01:45:52] <mevon> i hate vba
[01:45:55] <mevon> :P
[01:46:11] <mevon> you didnt like it?
[01:46:43] <andypugh> The only programming language I dislike is C :-)
[01:47:39] <andypugh> I know why it is like it is, but really, strings would be so handy.
[01:47:44] <mevon> can you get realtime with java?
[01:48:32] <alex4nder> some time is realer than others
[01:49:15] <cpresser> mevon: depends on the VM implementation. and your understanding of reattime :)
[01:49:46] <cpresser> (as in timing requirements)
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[01:51:12] <andypugh> The programming languages I know, in order of learning them: Sinclair BASIC, Z80 machine code, Forth, BBC Basic, Fortran, QBASIC, LabView, MATLAB, LabViewRT(the only time I have been paid to code since I was 14 in Sinclair BASIC), VBA, C, Python.
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[01:52:24] <andypugh> With VBA I can do things to Excel you would not believe (including replacing a $10,000 per year package in 100 engine dynos)
[01:54:40] <mevon> stay away from Delphi
[01:56:31] <andypugh> VBA is surprisingly powerful, as it gives you full control of the Office object model. If you want to learn OO programming I can't think of a better way. The IDE does completion, listing the properties and methods, and you have absolutely no choice about using OO as all you have to play with is an immense OO structure. And it's interpreted to you can breakpoint and modify etc. I am not saying it is a great language, but
[01:56:31] <andypugh> a place to leatn OO? Probably the best.
[01:57:05] <t12> scientists do hilarious things in excel
[01:57:09] <t12> WITHOUT vba
[01:57:26] <t12> lik ODE solvers
[01:57:42] <t12> that use that goofy excel iteration thing
[01:58:25] <andypugh> Some loon did a 3D render of a rotating cube entirely in cell formulas.
[01:59:12] <t12> http://excel.acdc.com/
[01:59:27] <t12> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9_YkXHCkgA for not the actual spreadsheet
[02:02:56] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Nz5l0qiD0 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8Nz5l0qiD0&amp;feature=plcp> and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu6drtokNOA <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu6drtokNOA&amp;feature=plcp> for anyone wanting to see my crappy chinese mill doing actual work.
[02:04:02] <andypugh> What sold VBA to me were not great reasons. 1) I can distribute a spreadsheet in my corporate environment without anyone raising an eyebrow. 2) It can contain 20,000 lines of code (there is a 120 page manual for this "macro"). 3) I can import any DLL from any other installed software. This is the main point, as Excel acts as a familiar interface for the users to somerthing that behind the scenes controls a major applicat
[02:04:03] <andypugh> on the PC which interfaces with the vehicle ECU, and also controls 3 other PCs in the test cell (by three different interfaces) to control the dyno, the test equipment, and the room. (My macro can turn the lights out :-). Yes, I could have done it in a different language, outside Excel. it would have been better. But I would not have been allowed.
[02:08:44] <andypugh> The future arrived while I was drunk: http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/architecture-design-blog/2012/nov/23/print-yourself-3d-photo-booth
[02:11:27] <andypugh> FinboySlick: Nice. Needs EMC2 and LinuxCNC tags. But you win, your machine works, mine is still a project. (A project that skipped machines)
[02:11:59] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Hehe, I'll let you have mine for a year if you straighten it up ;)
[02:12:09] <FinboySlick> andypugh: And I'll add the tags right away.
[02:12:33] <andypugh> Have you considered straightening it in software?
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[02:14:16] <andypugh> What made the toolpath? it looks like a good one?
[02:17:04] <FinboySlick> andypugh: HSMWorks made the toolpath, and I don't think software will help much for tram-like adjustments. I guess it could compensate for the uneven ways in X and Y.
[02:18:03] <FinboySlick> Uneven ways on the Z column means that the head shifts around an unknown radius depending on its position.
[02:18:07] <andypugh> Somewhere there is a kinematics for a twisted gantry.
[02:18:50] <andypugh> If you make that a _known_ radius then a custom kins can fix it.
[02:18:51] <FinboySlick> andypugh: I want to take it all appart and rebuild it right, hoping most of the errors are assembly errors.
[02:19:38] <FinboySlick> andypugh: It's a Z variable radius, but yeah. Wouldn't fix the un-adjustable tramming though.
[02:20:23] <andypugh> It would. If you can parameterise the errors into equations, it can be done.
[02:20:28] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Bottom line, I want it straight and I'll aim for that first. If it were, it would actually be a very very nice little mill.
[02:21:01] <andypugh> Robots and hexapods work, and they are _lots_ worse than your not-quite-cartesian machine.
[02:21:58] <FinboySlick> andypugh: software correction is nice for the actual cutting, but when I'm setting up the parts, all my references are off.
[02:22:22] <andypugh> Yes, fix the hardware, but bear in mind that anything curved or irreperably skewed is probably fixable in software if the hardware is too borked.
[02:22:44] <andypugh> I am not sure that is true
[02:23:07] <FinboySlick> andypugh: simple example for that part. The reference is a through hole so I can machine both sides.
[02:23:55] <andypugh> Consider the situation if your machine was some sort of crazy thing like a SCARA on the platform of a hexapod, being waved around by a Huge PUMA robot.
[02:24:28] <andypugh> As far as LinuxCNC is concerned it is a simple machine that moves in XYZ.
[02:24:42] <FinboySlick> 1- The hole doesn't go straight down (Z column not straight). 2- the hole isn't round (head not trammed), 3- I'm not able to indicate the hole position because my dial indicator is longer than the drill bit.
[02:25:01] <andypugh> Once you are in World mode it will move and jog in perfect XYZ space.
[02:26:35] <andypugh> JT-Shop: cradek Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVgc8ksstyg&feature=endscreen
[02:26:47] <FinboySlick> andypugh: With inaccurate tramming, moving in perfect XYZ involves knowing the tool length.
[02:27:02] <andypugh> Yes? and?
[02:27:19] <FinboySlick> I'd have to input a tool length for my dial indicator :P
[02:27:31] <andypugh> And?
[02:28:20] <FinboySlick> Sounds terribly unpractical... And hard to get repeatability.
[02:28:55] <FinboySlick> And it still won't prevent drill bits from going in 'sideways' instead of straight down.
[02:29:43] <andypugh> Yes, actually, it will :-)
[02:30:10] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I take that last one back.
[02:30:24] <FinboySlick> But it does really really really mean things to my OCD.
[02:31:08] <andypugh> It's not the _ideal_ solution, but bear it in mind as a option.
[02:32:10] <andypugh> Evil christmas present for OCD friends. Those day-of-the-week socks. Argh!
[02:33:02] <andypugh> (Better still, a lot of grey ones marked "left" and black ones marked "right" :-)
[02:33:40] <FinboySlick> But socks do end up left-right as they adapt to your feet.
[02:33:51] <FinboySlick> the stretching pattern is different.
[02:35:59] <andypugh> The point is that given that set there is no consistent solution.
[02:38:46] <andypugh> And I am not sure about the stretching. Have you noticed that if there is a hole in your sock at the big toe, if you swap feet the hole is still at the big toe? How is that possible?
[02:39:18] <FinboySlick> It is not! Heretic!
[02:42:02] <andypugh> Anyway, I need to be up in 3 hours!
[02:42:05] <andypugh> Night all
[02:42:15] <FinboySlick> Goodnight :)
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[03:07:28] <FinboySlick> qasw.Élkjdfwplkuytfdrsedrghjnl,.é
[03:07:29] <FinboySlick> <lkhgxzxcbm
[03:07:36] <FinboySlick> woops
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[03:16:58] <r00t4rd3d> is that your password?
[03:27:38] <FinboySlick> r00t4rd3d: Yup. root access to my vacuum cleaner.
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[07:37:28] <abetusk> archivist, you around?
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[07:53:34] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[10:50:02] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[13:02:23] <mazafaka> Loetmichel: hello, can you give some link where I can read in English about the types of the motors used with motion control
[13:05:31] <archivist> abetusk, sure, someone posted the important i missed from your question
[13:19:35] <archivist> important line
[13:19:48] <archivist> my modem did a retrain
[13:25:40] <mazafaka> archivist: wasn't it you who had once given me a link on motors, I plan to learn this stuff, but have no time for starting it in ##electronics
[13:28:12] <archivist> ew, dunno what was it about
[13:28:15] <awallin> if it's a good overview of steppers vs servos then add it to the wiki also
[13:29:12] <archivist> I have favourite link for the myths of microstepping
[13:30:42] <mazafaka> i have this link
[13:31:22] <mazafaka> it can become favourite too if I try to read it
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[14:24:34] <joe9> not a linuxcnc question, a machining question: I am about to mill a pcb and instead of having FR4 flying around, am planning on putting some oil on the pcb surface.
[14:25:25] <joe9> a thick oil seems like a good idea. taking it a step farther, I am thinking about grease
[14:25:48] <joe9> but, I read that grease oxidizes on the copper layer. I plan on using Tin-It on the board anyway.
[14:25:53] <joe9> Is that a good idea?
[14:26:22] <joe9> rub a layer of grease on the pcb, wipe it clean afterwards, wash it, and then tin-it
[14:26:31] <joe9> any thoughts, please?
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[14:44:01] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/5p64o.jpg
[14:45:41] <joe9> i like grease over oil, as grease will be easy to wipe off.
[14:46:25] <r00t4rd3d> dont get it too hot
[14:46:49] <r00t4rd3d> grease fires are not fun
[14:46:54] <cpresser> joe9: even if the copper does oxidize; you can grind that off, or reduce it with flux
[14:47:31] <cpresser> or: get a vacuum :)
[14:47:48] <r00t4rd3d> or hire a hooker to sit there and blow on it
[14:48:48] <joe9> cpresser: r00t4rd3d: thanks.
[14:48:56] <r00t4rd3d> lol
[14:51:20] <joe9> cpresser: flux vs tin-it? I am using tin-it, why would I need flux?
[14:51:42] * cpresser never worked with tin-it
[14:51:44] <joe9> cpresser: not to put you on the spot with that question, but, am trying to understand the reasoning behind why you mentioned flux?
[14:51:55] <joe9> cpresser: ok, thanks.
[14:52:02] <cpresser> flux is good for soldering
[14:52:20] <cpresser> one part of the job flux does is to reduce copper-oxide
[14:53:04] <joe9> cpresser: ok, thanks. I will research more on flux vs tin-it. I have both with me, so, it is not a big deal to use either.
[14:53:13] <r00t4rd3d> tinit is flux pretty much
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[14:56:05] <r00t4rd3d> fancy name for solder paste
[14:56:17] <Tom_itx> no, that tin stuff is rather toxic
[14:57:19] <Tom_itx> rosin flux is merely tree sap
[14:57:45] <joe9> Tom_itx: thanks, good to know. rosin flux > tin-it.
[14:58:34] <Tom_itx> that tin stuff is a tin coating to coat the copper
[14:58:43] <Tom_itx> if it's what i'm thinking of
[14:58:48] <Tom_itx> and it's quite toxic
[14:59:18] <Tom_itx> the flux cleans the oxide from the copper so the solder will adhere to it better
[15:00:27] <joe9> Tom_itx: btw, is grease a good idea over oil while milling the pcb?
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[15:01:04] <Tom_itx> if you use carbide you can cut them dry
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[15:01:24] <Tom_itx> and if you don't, the cutter is gonna dull too quick anyway
[15:01:25] <joe9> I am milling a slot in the pcb and I do not want FR4 flying around.
[15:01:39] <Tom_itx> get a vaccuum
[15:01:41] <joe9> Tom_itx: yes, I am using carbide bits.
[15:01:49] <joe9> Tom_itx: you mean a shop-vac?
[15:01:54] <Tom_itx> yeah
[15:02:40] <joe9> i have an old one, but, the FR4 stuff is so tiny that the filter does not seem to catch it. I probably should get a new one with a better filter.
[15:03:46] <Tom_itx> and a mask
[15:04:26] <joe9> I have the good mask.
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[15:12:40] <joe9> 16
[15:12:43] * JT-Shop finds that even having a touch screen a mouse is needed from time to time
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[15:13:49] <roh> we got a trackball at the mill
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[15:14:22] <JT-Shop> that's what I need, I found the onscreen keyboard for that part
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[15:15:27] <gmouer> I use one of those touchpads, nice and small, sealed up and needs little room, got it on 3 machines been happy with it
[15:15:44] <JT-Shop> got a pic of one of those?
[15:15:59] <gmouer> yea John, hang on a sec
[15:17:56] <gmouer> here ya go John http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cirque-Easy-Cat-PS-2-Touch-Pad-/170946740076?pt=Mice&hash=item27cd383f6c
[15:18:12] <gmouer> they emulate a mouse, just plug and play
[15:18:22] <gmouer> no driver required
[15:18:44] <Jymmm> Why does an the AC field of an alternator need a DC source to excite it?
[15:18:45] <roh> hm.. with oily fingers i find a trackball works better than a pad
[15:18:49] <JT-Shop> thanks
[15:19:35] <gmouer> sure thing John no problems with oily fingers so far and I am constantly oily LOL
[15:19:41] <Jymmm> --- AC Motors and Generators, US Army Training Video 1961 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=07uXnc1C5CA
[15:20:59] <gmouer> John: those things come in usb, ps2, and serial flavors but they have adapters with them for serial to ps2
[15:21:41] <gmouer> the ps2 interface is the best bet
[15:22:01] <gmouer> linux thinks its a standard mouse
[15:22:02] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, no magnets
[15:22:49] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: could you elaborate a bit?
[15:23:07] <Tom_itx> i used to have a link but i'm not sure i could find it now
[15:26:35] <Tom_itx> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6844707-0-large.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6844707.html&h=2326&w=3066&sz=886&tbnid=i3SurPgCV1GLiM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=119&zoom=1&usg=__tZmCWRWeDa3e3U5KexSwdjQvm48=&docid=yqLxmzaMBXUJwM&sa=X&ei=w-awUNT0JomY2wWp24CoBA&ved=0CHEQ9QEwAw&dur=1723
[15:26:42] <gmouer> need ideas for a work-around Have spindle override setup, and spindle at speed, if I override more than say the 10% the spindle-at-speed is set for, G-code execution suspends. Linuxcnc is only looking at initial commanded speed, does not take override into consideration when determining if spindle is at speed or not
[15:26:42] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure that's a good example
[15:27:29] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: #410 "field", isn't that magnets?
[15:27:49] <Tom_itx> http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Self-Excitation+of+Generators
[15:27:55] <Tom_itx> maybe that explains it better
[15:29:24] <Tom_itx> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/eej.4390980116/abstract
[15:29:46] <Tom_itx> oh, that's not the whole thing though sry
[15:30:14] <archivist> field is an electromagnet
[15:31:33] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitation_%28magnetic%29
[15:37:00] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Ok, you said "no magnets". So there are field coils and a rotor. In this case is the rotor just another coil instead of magnet(s)?
[15:37:29] <Tom_itx> that's my understaning
[15:38:25] <archivist> I see the kids of today have never used a car dynamo :)
[15:38:51] <gmouer> I was just thinking of a auto alternator
[15:39:17] <Tom_itx> the battery is used to excite it in that case
[15:39:19] <gmouer> and the auto type generator from days-of-old
[15:39:33] <Tom_itx> those were dc generators
[15:39:39] <gmouer> yup
[15:40:07] <Jymmm> gmouer: That's actually what I'm trying to understand; do modern alternators still need the DC to excite them? Are they now built in? Do they still use the battery as the dc source?
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[15:40:26] <Tom_itx> i believe they still use the battery
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[15:40:43] <Tom_itx> and the regulator keeps it from getting out of hand
[15:40:44] <gmouer> Unless it has changed, they still need the battery, will not output with a totally dead batter
[15:41:08] <Tom_itx> otherwise you wouldn't need jumper cables :)
[15:41:18] <pcw_home> Yep (thats how the voltage regulation works: varying the field)
[15:41:33] <Jymmm> Ok, and what about a motorcycle? Or popping the clutch to start a dead battery?
[15:42:07] <Jymmm> (or is that JUST enough DC to do what it needs)
[15:42:12] <archivist> some bikes have permanent magnet alternators
[15:42:23] <pcw_home> older motorcycles had magneto's and you need a lot less battery to get a spark than crank the engine
[15:42:33] <Jymmm> I think my old bike had a magneto (?)
[15:42:33] <gmouer> motorcycles are the same usually, don't think popping the clutch would work if the battery is 100% dead
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[15:42:58] <Jymmm> gmouer: I've done it with no battery installed
[15:43:07] <gmouer> the mag in magneto is all about the magnets, so the magnets are the excitation
[15:43:11] <Tom_itx> then it likely had magnets
[15:43:19] <Jymmm> gmouer: ah
[15:43:29] <pcw_home> Yeah a lot of older motorcycles had magnetos
[15:43:44] <Tom_itx> a lawnmower has the magnets in the flywheel
[15:43:52] <pcw_home> same thing
[15:43:57] <gmouer> airplanes use magneto's for ignition, no electric or battery required for a spark
[15:44:11] <JT-Shop> and most light piston engine aircraft
[15:44:27] <gmouer> lol, your too slow John
[15:44:41] <JT-Shop> busy making parts
[15:45:04] <L84Supper> so they named an ignition device after a comic book character! :)
[15:45:18] <Jymmm> L84Supper: other way around
[15:45:32] <Jymmm> L84Supper: They named a Superhero after a car part =)
[15:45:58] <Jymmm> L84Supper: Just wait for Alternator Man!
[15:46:00] <L84Supper> Jymmm: I know, it's always funny when kids come with things like that
[15:46:25] <Jymmm> heh
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[15:47:39] <gmouer> pcw_home: thanks again for the servo tune help the other day, got it dialed in to within a couple tenths max error now
[15:47:42] <Jymmm> Ok, this is cheesy as all hell (John's favorite HF parts even), but it's kinda interesting to wonder what it could really do http://www.into-the-wilderness.com/product.asp?itemid=111025&gdftrk=gdfV24049_a_7c2091_a_7c8463_a_7cM_d_BIKECRANK&gclid=CNjFtLfm57MCFYs7MgodTw0AGQ
[15:48:31] <Jymmm> They do show it with the battery disconnected as well; that was the reason for my inquiry in the first place.
[15:48:52] <L84Supper> is it just an alternator in a plastic tool/tacklebox?
[15:49:29] <Jymmm> L84Supper: alternator, voltag reg (I think), battery, and an inverter.
[15:49:35] <gmouer> I believe a alternator only needs the battery initially, then it will self sustain once its spinning
[15:49:44] <L84Supper> huh "All units Made In USA by Moeller Engineering"
[15:50:01] <Jymmm> gmouer: Right, but they show it with the battery disconnected.
[15:51:05] <Tom_itx> maybe it has a secondary exciter coil
[15:51:46] <Jymmm> I though I heard them say "permanent magnet" alternator, but I could be wrong.
[15:52:01] <gmouer> ahh that would explain things
[15:52:16] <Jymmm> I didn't know of car mfg had changed or special consideration.
[15:52:27] <Jymmm> s/of/if/
[15:53:14] <L84Supper> maybe they use a permanent magnet motor as a starter?
[15:53:14] <Jymmm> could human get 1500W out of such a thing practically?
[15:53:28] <Jymmm> L84Supper: It looks like an alternator to me.
[15:53:43] <Jymmm> At least liek eve one I've ever replaced =)
[15:54:09] <L84Supper> 1500W continuous?
[15:54:17] <gmouer> big car alternator is 100amps and outputs up to 18V, so that is 1500W +
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[15:55:50] <Jymmm> gmouer: Ok, instead of "big car" how about " big human" or "bunch O little humans" ?
[15:56:07] <L84Supper> 1000 chickens
[15:56:19] <Jymmm> 5000 gerbels
[15:56:50] <L84Supper> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_equipment
[15:57:01] <L84Supper> A trained cyclist can produce about 400 watts of mechanical power for an hour or more
[15:57:07] <gmouer> would need a energy drink to put out 1500W contin.
[15:57:16] <Jymmm> lol
[15:57:21] <roh> nope. humans do 300-400W max.
[15:57:49] <Jymmm> gmouer: So you are saying add a micro meth lab to the hand crank generator for TURBO MODE?
[15:58:05] <L84Supper> have to find all that old military testing data on all this
[15:58:11] <gmouer> dunno, ask Lance Armstrong
[15:58:52] <gmouer> guess its all a matter of the proper fuel
[15:59:24] <Jymmm> Ah, good point, pocket pony to extract the steroids from.
[15:59:33] <L84Supper> I forget what the conversion efficiency of human muscle is
[15:59:58] <roh> bad ;)
[16:00:35] <Jymmm> hand cracking would get tiring; but I thought like a drum peddle and jsut tap your foot might do it, like the old foot powered sewing machines.
[16:00:36] <roh> afaik a human is a worse battery than a block of dry-lead
[16:01:06] <L84Supper> roh: is that why they gave up on trying to use them? :)
[16:01:38] <Jymmm> Those old sewing machines worked well; and didn't need much effort other than timing
[16:02:04] <gmouer> intermitttent load, and a flywheel
[16:02:13] <roh> L84Supper: use what? lead? still in use.
[16:02:22] <L84Supper> meant people
[16:02:40] <Jymmm> gmouer: They had sort of a flywheel, not a lot of mass to it, more diamter
[16:02:43] <roh> for storing energy they are not efficient.
[16:03:17] <Jymmm> roh: what? ppl or flywheels?
[16:03:43] <roh> people. flywheels only make sense in stationary applications and are also still used
[16:04:22] <roh> e.g. braking trains feed bad to the grid and sometimes the energy is stored in a flywheel next to the line to make the grid cheaper.
[16:04:27] <Jymmm> Yeah, like I said, those foot powered sewing machines didn't need much effort
[16:04:28] <roh> s/bad/back
[16:04:45] <L84Supper> so lance armstrong on meth going downhill with 1 ton bike = 1500 watts
[16:04:51] <pcw_home> not all stationary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnKhE5T4Re8
[16:04:56] <Jymmm> L84Supper: lol
[16:05:42] <roh> pcw_home: f1 stuff doesnt have anything to do with 'makes sense' or 'economic' .. but with 'whats allowed under regulations'
[16:05:48] <roh> so.. bad comparison
[16:06:46] <pcw_home> Not quite, I think these will start replacing batteries in hybrids in the next few years
[16:07:03] <pcw_home> better w/kg
[16:08:49] <L84Supper> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Patriot
[16:08:54] <awallin> do they run the flywheel in vacuum? what kind of bearings? I would think mechanical friction must be minimized..
[16:09:04] <pcw_home> maglev
[16:09:06] <L84Supper> " was later revealed that serious problems with the mechanical integrity of the flywheel could not be overcome, and protection from a shattering flywheel would exact too much of a weight penalty"
[16:09:53] <pcw_home> flywheels have come a loooong way since then
[16:10:07] <roh> pcw_home: the problem with moving those is that you have a gyro then
[16:10:14] <L84Supper> http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/10/flywheel-hybrid-test-vehicle-nets-22-4-improvement-in-fuel-econ/
[16:10:15] <gmouer> huh, weight penalty? I was thinking of top fuel dragsters and the kevlar blankets around their clutches
[16:11:25] <Jymmm> pcw_home: What I don't get is how can you store energy that's MECHANICALLY stored in a flywheel, and use it ELECTRICALLY on demand at the push of a button.
[16:11:33] <pcw_home> gyroscopic forces are canceled by using contra-rotating flywheels
[16:12:18] <L84Supper> Jymmm: they oversimplify the explanation
[16:12:29] <Jymmm> pcw_home: or as that video said up to 6s, that's a LONG time
[16:12:32] <L84Supper> flyhweel to generator
[16:12:39] <gmouer> Jymmm: sounds like a clutch application
[16:12:40] <pcw_home> http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/apr/18/f1-fuel-saving-flywheel-buses
[16:13:07] <L84Supper> will the oil co's allow this?
[16:13:37] <roh> .a finds storing energy for seconds nice but by far not interresting for proper storage.
[16:13:49] <L84Supper> it's not so much about the tech as it is the people in charge
[16:14:29] <roh> i drive a electric bike which runs off a 48V 10A sealed lead battery... friends of mine use lithium based ones (less weight). so i know quite well how much energy one needs to travel, accelerate etc.
[16:14:35] <roh> L41
[16:15:04] <roh> L84Supper: exactly. the change that needs to happen is that people stop moving 2 tons of steel and crap if they really only want to move <100kg of human.
[16:15:06] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Heh, they are using the mass weight of a bus, which makes perfect sense. Could be done for big rigs too I suspect.
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[16:15:52] <Jymmm> That's pretty slick, somebody was thinking there =)
[16:15:56] <L84Supper> roh: I agree. Almost everything in the US is designed around wasting energy in a car
[16:16:48] <pcw_home> Well starting with a maybe 15% efficient IC engine was clearly a mistake
[16:16:50] <Tom_itx> the extra weight is to protect from humans than have no sense
[16:16:53] <L84Supper> roh; what's your average range o that bike?
[16:16:56] <Jymmm> L84Supper: I've always thought about that. You're driving down the fwy, why not store all that energy used, it's gonna cost you the same either way.
[16:17:14] <roh> L84Supper: well.. i can understand that in a country like the us its more difficult due to the bad infrastructure and long distances.
[16:17:43] <roh> L84Supper: dunno.. with a freshly charged pack easily 20km, rather something like 40 or 50 if one pedals enough.
[16:18:14] <L84Supper> half the country lives in a bubble, they can't even agree on facts
[16:19:05] <roh> i think for the us full-hybrids make sense. basically a fully electric car with a battery for something like 50km range (smaller and cheaper) and a electric generator run from gas or liquified natual gas
[16:19:16] <L84Supper> roh: I considered importing them a few years ago but the towns here are still hostile towards powered bikes
[16:19:36] <Jymmm> L84Supper: loud?
[16:19:54] <L84Supper> roh: they aren't allowed on the bike trails
[16:19:57] <roh> the generator would start and stop on demand and run on continous constant load in a much more efficient range than when one drives a shaft directly and changes rpm and torque all the time
[16:21:04] <roh> L84Supper: huh? well.. in europe a electric bike is a bike if its within certain specs. pedal sensor, continous power <=250W, no support >25km/h. the rest is up to you. and also nobody bothers to check those.
[16:21:49] <roh> if one wants more speed, one needs a helmet, a license for sth. like a mofa (50cubic centimeter compareable) and an insurance plate
[16:21:53] <L84Supper> roh: even scooters are a problem, if they are large enough to license you can't park them on the sidewalk
[16:22:02] <Jymmm> I wonder if the "delay" is just bullshit or not... http://www.handcrankedgenerator.com/order.html
[16:22:16] <L84Supper> so you can ride them you just have to pay $$$ to park them like a car
[16:22:25] <roh> so.. most scooters are the same regulations when it comes to insurance and speed limit like a high powered electric bike
[16:22:38] <L84Supper> roh: yeas
[16:22:44] <Tom_itx> theft would be a bigger issue too probably
[16:22:54] <roh> L84Supper: heh. here in berlin you can park even big motorcycles on the sideway
[16:23:11] <L84Supper> in the USA it's about collecting money
[16:23:23] <L84Supper> not about the environment or the future
[16:23:33] <Tom_itx> we must supply the world's economy ya know
[16:23:46] <Jymmm> Jumbo Version http://www.handcrankedgenerator.com/liberty.html
[16:23:52] <L84Supper> unless it's somebody's immediate financial future :)
[16:23:55] <roh> Tom_itx: why steal electric bikes if there are loads of expensive high end mountainbikes around and also bmw, benz and audi cars?
[16:24:29] <Tom_itx> who could say what goes on in the mind of a thief
[16:24:46] <L84Supper> Asia and Europe are far more bike/motorbike friendly
[16:24:51] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Mission Impossible theme song?
[16:26:01] <L84Supper> they even kill most diesel cars here by the emissions laws being tailored to make them difficult to meet
[16:26:49] <L84Supper> so it's mostly back to corruption vs tech hurdles
[16:27:29] <roh> L84Supper: huh? we got those too. that only added fine dust filters
[16:29:00] <L84Supper> I looked into importing old small diesel engines from the EU for auto retrofits here as well
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[16:29:41] <L84Supper> we can't purchase any of those great high mileage diesels they sell all over Europe here
[16:30:56] <roh> evil
[16:31:21] <L84Supper> corruption and ignorance
[16:32:32] <L84Supper> and for some reason solar won't work here either, even though Germany seems to be working with it pretty well with less sun than most of the US
[16:33:20] <roh> nobody calculates the cost of nuclear and coal seriously
[16:33:31] <roh> all the environmental and waste costs are ignored
[16:33:45] <Jymmm> Chenobol
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[16:33:51] <L84Supper> "clean coal" hah
[16:34:05] <Tom_itx> and the cost to produce nuclear
[16:34:12] <roh> if one includes these costs even now solar electric is cheaper per kw/h than the rest
[16:34:35] <Tom_itx> we've been adding alot of wind farms around here
[16:34:42] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: I think gasification can work if you can capture all the nasty stuff like sulphur.
[16:35:22] <pcw_home> Yeah ask the Japanese how cheap nuclear is
[16:35:47] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: On the nuclear bit, I think breeders are a much saner alternative.
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[16:36:23] <L84Supper> is there a tech solution to curing corruption? http://science.slashdot.org/story/12/11/22/1956214/could-testing-block-psychopaths-from-senior-management
[16:36:50] <FinboySlick> Smaller scale, less waste and when your safety features die, it stops instead of going into meltdown.
[16:36:51] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Household sized nuclear plants. "I can fix it honey" *POOF*
[16:37:09] <roh> L84Supper: open sourcing helps quite a lot.
[16:37:24] <Tom_itx> Jymmm it would help population control
[16:37:26] <roh> corruption is a result of closed talking
[16:37:50] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Heh, by talking out hole towns at a time?
[16:37:55] <Jymmm> taking
[16:38:00] <Jymmm> whole
[16:38:28] <L84Supper> I have been to towns I would consider to be "Holes"
[16:38:35] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: I don't think a household sided nuke plant would be the kind that can go boom.
[16:39:01] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: They invent better idiots all the time.
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[16:39:37] <pcw_home> honey ,whats the gain difference between critical and critical prompt? Foom!
[16:40:03] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: Obviously, but I think you're more likely to have some smart college kid create the new bubonic plague in his dormroom.
[16:40:40] <L84Supper> worse than facebook?
[16:40:46] <Jymmm> LOL
[16:40:47] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Point.
[16:40:50] <Jymmm> L84Supper++
[16:41:25] <FinboySlick> Anyway. We're not out of room, not out of food and we're not out of resources.
[16:41:38] <Jymmm> Oh Gawd... "Lean startup household nuclear generators"
[16:42:35] <Jymmm> the premise of "Lean Startup" is "just get it out, doesn't matter if it's good or bad, and wait for the feedback and fix "
[16:42:50] <Jymmm> lather, rinse, repeat.
[16:43:15] <L84Supper> Canada has lots of new beachfront property :)
[16:43:45] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Hey, we have quite a bit of unused northern coast.
[16:43:51] <Jymmm> L84Supper: With built in green illumionating sand
[16:45:17] <L84Supper> in some way the hubris of the corruption is speeding things up and will get the attention of the masses
[16:45:26] <Jymmm> This is cool.... pedal powered radio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Solitary_Island_Pedal_Radio_br_3.jpg
[16:45:44] <Jymmm> Circa 1929 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_equipment#Pedal-powered_transmitter
[16:46:03] <L84Supper> I was surprised by the turnout here by young people here and by women in the last elections
[16:46:05] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: That's what's going on here in Quebec. It's a bit easier though because our government is sort of the last real bastion of the italian mafia.
[16:46:21] <FinboySlick> You can practically catch them by looking up the last name.
[16:46:35] <Jymmm> Discover has a new TV show.... Amish Mafia
[16:47:05] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Where's 'here'?
[16:47:19] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: USA
[16:47:30] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Hehe, I knew that, I meant the state/county.
[16:48:12] <L84Supper> Chicago
[16:48:25] <FinboySlick> Another great mafia area :)
[16:48:38] <L84Supper> Chicago ban ban
[16:48:42] <L84Supper> bang bang
[16:49:16] <FinboySlick> Mind you, Obama got 10M less votes than in 2008 and Romney got even less than McCain...
[16:49:30] <FinboySlick> I think it's a good sign that most of you realized that you were screwed both ways.
[16:49:49] <roh> *g*
[16:50:18] <roh> FinboySlick: i think its the same game for most. but yes.. i'm glad its not romney even as a non-us citizen
[16:50:37] <roh> i had already prepared for people moving from the us over here.
[16:51:00] <FinboySlick> roh: Looking at the record, I really can't tell which of the two is going to be worse.
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[16:51:48] <L84Supper> I spend half my time in China, that's another story.... but I'm just a guest there :)
[16:52:10] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Yeah, I guess that gives one quite a sense of perspective.
[16:52:10] <roh> FinboySlick: i meant that seriously. i know people who were prepared to leave.
[16:52:47] <L84Supper> roh: yes, there might have been another exodus if things went differently
[16:52:52] <FinboySlick> roh: Hehe... The worse part is: To go where? We're not much better off in Canada.
[16:53:07] <roh> FinboySlick: europe. happened before. will happen again
[16:53:41] <FinboySlick> roh: Hehe, I can just hear it: "Ah screw the total economic collaps in ten years, let's go where it'll happen next year."
[16:53:53] <roh> e.g. in the 70s a lot of people went to the netherlands. lots of them stayed and the economy profited.
[16:54:29] <roh> FinboySlick: heh. tell me. i live in berlin. its basically bankrupt for over a decade. we know broke.
[16:54:31] <FinboySlick> roh: Hmmm, there's a point. We could double Iceland's population.
[16:55:30] <FinboySlick> There's also belgium... They had no government during most of the economic crysis so they were unable to do anything. Which turned out to be one of the very best options.
[16:55:40] <roh> the point is that its always the bright, energetic, motivated people to leave. so.. make sure they stay or come where you are.
[16:56:39] <roh> and iceland.. well., they got their banks in front of a judge and profited..something nobody from the banks wants to see soon again.
[16:57:21] <L84Supper> Hiroshima vs Detroit -- 64 years later. Reminds me of this http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/chat/2349112/posts
[16:59:07] <FinboySlick> roh: They set an important precedent though.
[16:59:08] <L84Supper> where to next? Please flag down any passing spaceships for me
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[16:59:41] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Actually, that's what I was about to say. I can't really think of a good place to leave *to*.
[16:59:45] <roh> L84Supper: well.. whatfor? fuck up the next planet? i think we should fix this one first
[17:00:07] <L84Supper> roh: it would be nice
[17:00:10] <FinboySlick> roh: I definitely agree there.
[17:00:21] <L84Supper> have to find a way to get people out of the bubble
[17:00:21] <FinboySlick> But I'm optimistic.
[17:00:49] <roh> well.. i think it all boils down to education
[17:00:51] <L84Supper> people that don't believe in facts
[17:01:27] <roh> and my way to push that is hackerspaces and building a culture of openness and reason.
[17:01:36] <FinboySlick> Heck, even that secession movement might be on to something. I don't think they'll ever go through but remind the government that they can is a pretty important check on the distribution of powers.
[17:02:10] <roh> people who need to believe because they aren't educated enoug to know need books and teachers not preachers.
[17:02:49] <L84Supper> those are the states that take more than they put in
[17:03:14] <roh> i mean.. its hard to learn that mythbusters seems to do more for education about physics than public schools do.
[17:03:21] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Even better then. Let them go through with it, they'll either fix their system or go broke.
[17:04:15] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: exactly, it would be a wakeup call.... or they would blame it on something else
[17:04:16] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Wealth redistribution is really just a scheme for power concentration.
[17:04:31] <roh> FinboySlick: not neccessary.
[17:04:42] <FinboySlick> roh: Ultimately, yes, necessarily.
[17:04:56] <L84Supper> roh: the public school system here is pretty awful, my kids barely survived it
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[17:05:26] <jdh> where?
[17:05:36] <roh> FinboySlick: think EU.. the idea/concept, not the implementation (eu council) ... basically it made sure none of the members can go into war with any of the others. just too expensive and not feasible due to economic, political and social intermeshing nowadays. and thats great.
[17:06:13] <FinboySlick> roh: What you're describing is the idea that if everybody listens to the king, nobody will fight eachother.
[17:06:37] <roh> if the king is a fair and good man/woman thats ok.
[17:06:41] <L84Supper> use the same money, wear the same hats
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[17:06:53] <roh> thats better than some corrupt industrial running things
[17:06:59] <FinboySlick> roh: When you create the position 'king' you create a magnet for the corrupt.
[17:07:51] <roh> most the times, sure. there seem to be some honorable exemptions.
[17:07:53] <FinboySlick> roh: Any implementation that relies on people being honest and selfless is going to cause widespread misery.
[17:08:22] <roh> i found buthan for example quite interresting. basically their king is making sure the country doesnt fall into chaos while modernizing.
[17:08:23] <FinboySlick> Because the very people who do not have those qualities will move up the system simply because they have the advantage.
[17:08:47] <FinboySlick> roh: And in 50 years, will they have the same awesome king?
[17:08:59] <FinboySlick> The benevolent dictator concept is not reliable.
[17:09:02] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: there is a double standard, the poor are supposed to be honest and selfless, the rulers on the other hand.... not so much
[17:09:08] <roh> in the end its a rather philosophical thing.. why run for power, money etc all the time?
[17:10:04] <roh> thats a typical western thinking. expansion, growth.. things that do not work outside of economics (or for anybody working scientific)
[17:10:06] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Exactly, which is why you need the least possible amount of power in the broadest areas. Essentially, the basics of Jeffersonian government.
[17:10:14] <L84Supper> why do we keep letting sociopaths run things governments and corporations?
[17:10:38] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: We do not 'let' them. We built the system in such a way that they thrive in it.
[17:10:40] <roh> i think people need to be happy where they are first to be able to be fair, not corrupt and maybe even ressource conservative
[17:11:03] <roh> FinboySlick: the king stepped down and installed a democracy
[17:12:07] <FinboySlick> roh: You think the EU parliament will step down and install individual democracies when they've 'modernized' europe?
[17:12:17] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: why do we keep building systems that let sociopaths run things like governments and corporations?
[17:12:21] <roh> the point is that people need to understand that power means work and responsability. thats nothing to really like. it may be an honor, but for anybody able it should be a burden to be happy to give it up.
[17:12:36] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Actually, you ignored one of the very best systems against it.
[17:12:38] <FinboySlick> ;)
[17:12:49] <roh> FinboySlick: no. i don't have any problem with the parliament. they are elected.
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[17:13:12] <roh> the council isnt. that we need to remove. thats a nondemocratic and corrupt part of europe
[17:13:13] <L84Supper> FinboySlick: not ignored by me, just by most people obviously :)
[17:13:25] <FinboySlick> roh: Hehe, I don't think you realize your problem with the parliament ;)
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[17:13:57] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Well, the ideas are coming back at least.
[17:14:13] <roh> FinboySlick: most eu stuff never has anything to do with em. its decided in the council which basically consists of lobbyists
[17:14:52] <FinboySlick> roh: And you've just exposed the very core of the problem. You centralize authority, the will *alway* find a way to have their way regardless of what the people think.
[17:15:04] <FinboySlick> roh: Same is happening with the executive branch of the US government.
[17:15:31] <L84Supper> has happened and is still happening
[17:15:32] <pcw_home> Best government that money can buy
[17:15:32] <roh> if you stay at all these mini islands it goes bad the same.
[17:15:52] <roh> the problem europe has when it comes to money is because there is NO economic rules.
[17:16:22] <roh> one cannot have a common currency without having common concepts and regulations about money.
[17:16:28] <FinboySlick> roh: But the islands at least compete for the best system. I prefer illinois screwing up than the whole US government screwing up. At least in the former case the other states can go: See, that doesn't work, we won't do that.
[17:17:04] <roh> FinboySlick: i have no issues with continous independance of certain things and experimenting in the small.
[17:17:30] <FinboySlick> roh: Your approach encourages the power creep that you seem to think is the problem.
[17:17:35] <roh> but when one wants peace and a common area of business and travel (like the eu) one needs to atleast have a common ground for how to work that.
[17:17:57] <FinboySlick> roh: These common grounds cannot be imposed.
[17:18:24] <FinboySlick> There's nothing preventing individual states agreeing on a non-binding set of standards.
[17:18:26] <roh> FinboySlick: my approach would be to kill the council and add hard economic rules.
[17:18:31] <L84Supper> so back to "can the hand crank generator output 1500 W?" not if powered by only one person
[17:18:51] <L84Supper> and with our current system of government
[17:18:53] <roh> as long as its not binding it will fail in the end.
[17:19:04] <FinboySlick> roh: Hard economic rules are going to kill you.
[17:19:18] <roh> L84Supper: it does the 1.5kW from the battery for a short time.
[17:19:27] <roh> FinboySlick: no. every country has those.
[17:19:27] <FinboySlick> That's called central economic planning, and the USSR is a great example of how well that works.
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[17:19:50] <roh> FinboySlick: have had all the time. the point is that one cannot run a common currency without having the same in all areas where its valid.
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[17:20:20] <FinboySlick> roh: You can if it isn't a fiat currency.
[17:20:23] <roh> so either allow gambling and tax it, or dont allow it.
[17:20:55] <FinboySlick> roh: I thought you were in favour of letting people decide on things like that.
[17:21:01] <roh> FinboySlick: there are no non-fiat currencys anymore. havent been for a long time now. and no way back
[17:21:23] <FinboySlick> roh: Then the world is headed for what happened in zimbabwe.
[17:21:40] <roh> ?
[17:22:06] <FinboySlick> the average life expectancy of fiat currencies is 40 years. Then they go to hyperinflation.
[17:22:32] <FinboySlick> We've gotten smarter, but not smart enough to prevent that.
[17:23:10] <roh> i think that doesnt matter. we usually fuck up economy due to speculation long before that
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[17:23:55] <L84Supper> but they learned how to keep the hyperinflation from happening from the experiments by the Chicago Boys in South America
[17:24:16] <roh> yeah right.. see argentinia
[17:24:21] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Hehe.
[17:24:37] <roh> they are short from defaulting again
[17:25:18] <FinboySlick> roh: Do you know the relationship between interest rates and the business cycle?
[17:25:19] <L84Supper> I vote we clone Friedman, and hang him
[17:25:50] <FinboySlick> L84Supper: Friedman wasn't that great, but he did have a point on the free market.
[17:26:45] <roh> FinboySlick: i think we need to go back and devalue money to real values. take speculation out of the game.
[17:26:58] <roh> make bankers work for their mones and learn something real to do.
[17:27:38] <FinboySlick> roh: I agree with that latest statement, the former is moot.
[17:27:39] <roh> people value stuff they made much more than bought ones. thats why i do such stuff. enable people to make stuff.
[17:27:51] <FinboySlick> roh: Definitely agree there.
[17:28:34] <roh> i just hope i am early enough in the game to find some greyhaired old men to educate us on mechanical stuff before that knowledge is lost ;)
[17:28:40] <FinboySlick> roh: Still, that bit of economics I'm talking about is a pretty good eye-opener. Remember that capital is a resource, like grain or steel or labour.
[17:28:55] <L84Supper> I'm just an observer in China.... it's been interesting to watch
[17:29:04] <FinboySlick> The interest rate is the price of the 'capital' resource.
[17:29:29] <roh> in the end it boils down to energy. thats the real ressouce which is limited.
[17:30:00] <L84Supper> it's also energy for what?
[17:30:11] <L84Supper> it's mostly wasted
[17:30:15] <FinboySlick> roh: Yeah, but it's easier to trade dollars than it is to trade watts when you're buying food.
[17:30:35] <roh> true. saving /using less is one component.
[17:31:05] <roh> FinboySlick: true. i got no issue with currency when it comes to 'exchange for goods/work'
[17:31:55] <roh> but making money from no work is removing value from the society which works for it. thats not good and not intended.
[17:32:09] <FinboySlick> roh: So... Let's pretend that your economy is doing well. People tend to make more money than they need, they save and invest: Capital is plentiful. What what should happen to the interest rate?
[17:32:32] <Tom_itx> sucking money from society for free isn't good either
[17:32:33] <roh> FinboySlick: be zero.
[17:32:33] <FinboySlick> roh: I'll get to that.
[17:32:55] <Tom_itx> it goes up
[17:32:56] <roh> having money and not using it is hurtful to economy.
[17:33:03] <Tom_itx> so the capatilists can profit
[17:33:06] <FinboySlick> roh: There's a cost to producing capital. Nobody's going to lend you money at zero interest.
[17:33:08] <roh> atleast in the long run.
[17:33:36] <FinboySlick> If I saved up 30k and you need it for your business, I'll expect to get back more than my 30k for lending it to you.
[17:33:37] <L84Supper> so how do you move this from discussion to action?
[17:33:47] <roh> you are physical people.. all these things could be seen as control loops. and the monetary system is a very badly mistuned pid loop
[17:34:09] <FinboySlick> roh: I'm trying to explain you why and how :)
[17:34:37] <roh> its over and undershooting all the time and most indivituals are only thinking about the short run and their local economy. which is plain stupid in a globalized world.
[17:34:59] <FinboySlick> roh: Anyway. Good economy, people being prosperous drive interest rates down.
[17:35:03] <roh> one needs to see it as 'inner world politics/economics', not national interrests.
[17:35:40] <roh> usually a 'good' period just shifted ressources from some other place on the planet to where its 'good'
[17:35:49] <L84Supper> what is wrong and the solutions to fix things have been discussed but what difference does it make without taking action?
[17:35:55] <FinboySlick> roh: Nothing wrong with that.
[17:36:06] <roh> FinboySlick: sure. its abuse of people
[17:36:22] <roh> being rich because you sell nambian oil is not right.
[17:36:44] <roh> either we can all prosper or we need to step shorter together.
[17:36:48] <FinboySlick> roh: You're confusing things.
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[17:37:21] <roh> e.g. europe is mostly build on colonial wealth.
[17:37:29] <FinboySlick> I'm talking about economics here, not shoving guns in people's faces to steal their resources.
[17:37:57] <FinboySlick> You trade your oil for money because that money is more valuable to you than the oil.
[17:38:06] <roh> only worked by robbing ressources somewhere else. banks have taken that to a new level. no poor countries to rob anymore. lets rob rich ones.. the part of them which cannot easily defend (society)
[17:38:44] <FinboySlick> roh: I'm not trying to play the blame game here, I'm trying to explain to you the economic rules of a sane system.
[17:39:05] <roh> FinboySlick: again.. i got no issue with trading real goods (money as exchance currency) .. but in reality thats all just minimal exchanges compared to the speculative part in the economy (which is multiple sizes of the real values)
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[17:39:34] <FinboySlick> roh: And I'm trying to explain to you how and why it came to the problem you describe.
[17:39:49] <roh> a economy with unregulated banking like we have in the us as well as in europe is similar to untaxed gambling with other peoples money.
[17:40:03] <FinboySlick> So you can think up of the solution a bit more clearly. Because your approach is even worse than the problems we have now so far.
[17:40:07] <L84Supper> There are uneducated masses and there is no plan to change the educational system. How do you get get the low informed and feeling powerless person to make things change?
[17:40:21] <roh> i think it doesnt matter how we got there. i think important is to fix the root cause and find a way to go on from there.
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[17:41:01] <roh> L84Supper: thats on purpose it seems. educated people are more dangerous to the surpressor.
[17:41:02] <FinboySlick> roh: If you don't think it matters how we got there, you basically are saying: It can be fixed without any idea of what the problem is.
[17:41:26] <FinboySlick> roh: That's not making a whole lot of sense.
[17:41:30] <roh> FinboySlick: no.. i think you got me wrong there. sure its needed to know whats the issue.
[17:41:42] <L84Supper> roh: I don't think it was an accident :)
[17:41:55] <FinboySlick> roh: To you the issue seems to be that gross speculation was allowed.
[17:42:01] <roh> but that doesnt help one if it has to do a lot with conceptual errors
[17:42:15] <FinboySlick> you're blaming a symptom of the problem as its cause.
[17:42:16] <roh> FinboySlick: for a bit part for sure, yes.
[17:42:42] <FinboySlick> roh: That's like taking pain killers for a broken leg because your problem is with the fact that the broken leg hurts.
[17:42:51] <roh> FinboySlick: not really. greed is a cause. but you cannot eliminate that, so you need to set limits.
[17:43:17] <FinboySlick> roh: Greed, by definition, means that your arbitrary limits are going to be skirted around.
[17:43:35] <FinboySlick> roh: Your approach is just a decision of who will profit most by skirting the rules.
[17:43:47] <FinboySlick> It's not a good approach.
[17:44:11] <roh> i think we need to level the playfield for one. limit the abuse of the system. anything else would be not nice for everybody.
[17:44:32] <FinboySlick> roh: And the person in charge of 'leveling' the playing field will profit.
[17:44:37] <FinboySlick> Again, wrong approach.
[17:44:45] <roh> FinboySlick: have a better idea?
[17:44:48] <FinboySlick> yes
[17:45:06] <roh> all 'the market will regulate itself' theories have been proven to be unstable systems.
[17:45:19] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c7b_1353713268
[17:45:24] <r00t4rd3d> wow i would shit my pants
[17:45:47] <FinboySlick> roh: that's a pretty empty argument, all the regulated economies are dying catastrophic deaths.
[17:46:16] <FinboySlick> whereas regulated markets tend to die when they become regulated.
[17:48:05] <FinboySlick> r00t4rd3d: Holy crap.
[17:48:20] <roh> r00t4rd3d: hrhr.. 'it only wants to play!!11!' ;)
[17:49:14] <r00t4rd3d> I dont think I could have just sat there
[17:49:31] <FinboySlick> I could have just shat there.
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[17:51:13] <roh> FinboySlick: all markets are regulated somehow. its the unregulated parts making the runaways. similar to upper/lower boundaries on control loops
[17:52:06] <roh> FinboySlick: banking was much more regulated 20 years ago. all the recent bubbles are a result of removal of these
[17:52:43] <FinboySlick> roh: Again, you're looking at a symptom as the cause.
[17:52:50] <pcw_home> Yep biggest lobby in US = financial services
[17:53:26] <pcw_home> got what they wanted, you see the results
[17:53:27] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: Exactly: They write the regulations, first they did to snuff out their competition, and now they do to pump assets their way.
[17:54:34] <FinboySlick> There's only one regulation needed against banks: Fraud is illegal.
[17:54:39] <FinboySlick> Just apply that one.
[17:54:42] <FinboySlick> See how many survive.
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[17:55:44] <pcw_home> They mainly lobbied (and succeeded) to remove regulations
[17:56:07] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: They created all the regulation in the first place.
[17:56:16] <FinboySlick> Well, most of the relevant one.
[17:56:22] <pcw_home> No not at all
[17:56:26] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: Remember, they get their people in congress.
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[17:57:19] <L84Supper> Glass–Steagall
[17:57:27] <pcw_home> sure and they mainly make sure that they are substantially unregulated
[17:57:50] <FinboySlick> pcw_home: It's worse than that. They make sure their competition is regulated.
[17:58:23] <FinboySlick> Same goes in the automotive or pharmaceutical industry.
[17:59:12] <pcw_home> Health care
[17:59:36] <FinboySlick> Yup, another good example.
[17:59:51] <FinboySlick> Drives prices up too.
[18:00:10] <FinboySlick> Which they do not mind one bit.
[18:01:01] -!- IchGuckLive [IchGuckLive!~chatzilla@95-89-101-95-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #linuxcnc
[18:01:06] <IchGuckLive> Hi all
[18:03:13] <pcw_home> order of lobbying money spent (according to wikipedia) is finance, healthcare, misc business, communication, energy, transportation... First 4 are more than 50%
[18:04:14] <IchGuckLive> pcw_home: the 4 sets have arrived today
[18:04:35] <IchGuckLive> so next week alot of coding to be done
[18:04:57] <pcw_home> Notice how the top two are areas with major problems in the US
[18:05:20] <IchGuckLive> in the USA in the World
[18:05:29] H264 is now known as WalterN
[18:05:33] <IchGuckLive> this is all over the countrys
[18:05:38] <pcw_home> IchGuckLive 4 sets?
[18:05:52] <IchGuckLive> from austria 7i76
[18:06:39] <pcw_home> Oh I thought this was alt.politics
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[18:20:06] <L84Supper> if you ignore the revisionist history, which may be difficult, it's clear what has happened and how to fix it, the problem now still is actually applying the fix
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[18:21:29] <IchGuckLive> politics is always a dirty business
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[18:22:37] <pcw_home> I blame Freuds nephew
[18:24:04] <IchGuckLive> no that is Humen
[18:24:13] <IchGuckLive> i am what i am
[18:24:40] <IchGuckLive> and i am myselfs best friend then comes a other
[18:24:55] <IchGuckLive> Utopia forever Tampa Florida
[18:25:28] <IchGuckLive> someone has to pay the price or make the paradise running
[18:25:45] <IchGuckLive> AS i am doing with my servo test
[18:25:57] <IchGuckLive> i think all the stuff i bought is broken
[18:26:14] <IchGuckLive> within 5 weeks of hard soldering no turn at all on the motor
[18:26:30] <pcw_home> Your 'bargain' drives?
[18:26:34] <IchGuckLive> but i give never up
[18:26:54] <IchGuckLive> YAaskava Omron
[18:27:23] <IchGuckLive> there are 240 Parameters etch HEX 4 Numbers so alot of choces
[18:29:02] <IchGuckLive> Oh therfor one Question from a NOOB if i got a 2,2KW VFD what happens if i plug in a 100W Servo
[18:31:26] <pcw_home> A VFD will nor normally drive a (permanent magnet) servo motor very well
[18:31:33] <pcw_home> not
[18:32:12] <IchGuckLive> but it turns
[18:32:28] <IchGuckLive> to check the servo
[18:32:55] <IchGuckLive> the osziloscope gives me a clear sin wave at all 3 phase connections
[18:33:10] <pcw_home> Yes it will (kind of like a micro stepped step drive)
[18:33:30] <IchGuckLive> i see
[18:34:44] <pcw_home> the permanent magnet rotor will follow the field (keeping itself aligned with the field)
[18:36:37] <pcw_home> a servo drive is different, will always apply power at 90 electrical degrees to the rotor position so it is always pulling the rotor from the field position of maximum torque
[18:36:44] <pcw_home> it will
[18:37:32] <pcw_home> so you are running the motor in step motor mode with a VFD
[18:41:26] <IchGuckLive> i will do so if i can get up to it if i power on the Driver it gives direct error out
[18:41:35] <pcw_home> The disadvantage is that its like a step motor so most of the current is pulling radially on the rotor
[18:41:37] <pcw_home> rather than providing torque. Also like a step motor, it can stall and lose sync
[18:41:50] <IchGuckLive> here i found i nice little pice to get them work maybe http://www.delta.com.tw/product/em/drive/ac_motor/download/manual/VFD-L_M_EN_20030522.pdf
[18:42:46] <IchGuckLive> but first till X-mas i try to keep up with the yaskava Xdrive and the Omron Servo combination
[18:43:20] <pcw_home> Good luck, is it still reporting encoder problems?
[18:43:33] <IchGuckLive> te service mailed me a Xtraware module but no file for the smartstep servos to find the parameter valies
[18:44:19] <IchGuckLive> YES AC3 still apears i clean the errors then i hook up the motor repower the unit and AC3
[18:44:26] <IchGuckLive> on the poweron press
[18:44:49] <L84Supper> Allegro A3959 vs Toshiba TB6560
[18:46:17] <IchGuckLive> TB6560 is good if you modify the blue bords
[18:46:44] <IchGuckLive> OH thats what i woudt like to do on the WIKi page this wek
[18:46:49] <IchGuckLive> week
[18:47:04] <IchGuckLive> change the Pf1000 to 150pf
[18:47:09] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: what did you have to change?
[18:47:30] <IchGuckLive> and then the diods from Fr304 to UF5407
[18:48:01] <IchGuckLive> then you are running at 400k Hz and got realy the diode speed
[18:48:19] <L84Supper> http://www.toshiba.com/taec/components2/Datasheet_Sync/382/27885.pdf
[18:48:30] <IchGuckLive> so its down from 150000 to l297 numbers in the config
[18:48:44] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: I don;t have the boards, just looking at the data sheets
[18:49:00] <IchGuckLive> i got more then 50 of this boards running
[18:49:14] <IchGuckLive> with 3 axis up to 5
[18:49:43] <IchGuckLive> all with the Epson steppers from aculaser
[18:49:54] <L84Supper> page 29 has a reference schematic
[18:50:00] <IchGuckLive> Astrosys minerba 23lm c355 w44
[18:50:10] <IchGuckLive> yes
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[18:50:46] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: so you just changed the cap for the OSC and to a faster diode somewhere
[18:51:58] <IchGuckLive> yes
[18:52:04] <IchGuckLive> see page 10
[18:52:27] <IchGuckLive> you can also pop out the diodes the internel are mutch faster
[18:52:48] <IchGuckLive> about 5000 times then the FR304
[18:52:56] <IchGuckLive> i mailed this to Yu4
[18:53:03] <IchGuckLive> but nothing back
[18:53:31] <L84Supper> IchGuckLive: I'm moving at ~100 steps per minute
[18:53:41] <IchGuckLive> it is on this prioduction value of 10000 per month no factor on him to change the parts
[18:53:45] <L84Supper> should i slow the clock down :)
[18:54:36] <IchGuckLive> no give it a 150pf at the bottem of the board and you are in the 5000 steps per second without any error
[18:55:10] <L84Supper> so 1 step per second should be no problem
[18:55:29] <IchGuckLive> not at all
[18:55:37] <IchGuckLive> even with the 1000pf
[18:55:50] <IchGuckLive> but the noise is incredeble
[18:56:34] <IchGuckLive> one of the tratcher dident know the changes and thaught all are broken as there wars no noice in the classroom anymore
[18:57:18] <L84Supper> I see you bumped the freq up for two reasons, faster steps and less noise
[18:57:30] <L84Supper> whats the fast rectifier for?
[18:58:31] <L84Supper> back emf?
[18:59:17] <IchGuckLive> im not a elec man so i dont know in all Stepper drivers there are in
[18:59:40] <IchGuckLive> but the TB has build in ones so you can leve them off and brigh
[18:59:44] <L84Supper> I see if there's a diagram for the board you used, thanks for the input
[18:59:49] <IchGuckLive> someone are doing this
[19:00:42] <L84Supper> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0093Y88SK/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller=
[19:03:41] <IchGuckLive> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3-Axis-CNC-Motor-Stepper-Driver-3A-12-36V-TB6560-/160917597172?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25776fabf4
[19:03:52] <IchGuckLive> there are this items
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[19:05:12] <L84Supper> heh, he's a few minutes from me in the US
[19:05:39] <IchGuckLive> so give him a visit and save money
[19:05:49] <L84Supper> I know him
[19:06:11] <IchGuckLive> ok thanks for today and By
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[19:07:52] <L84Supper> they actually stopped carrying those tb6560 drivers
[19:08:45] <L84Supper> pcw_home: how are those Allegro A3959 holding up?
[19:09:16] <L84Supper> 7i32 boards
[19:11:25] <awallin> and did the tb6560 use that allegro chip?
[19:11:33] <pcw_home> They are fine but only to about 2-2.5 A, great for tiny servos, and small stepmotors
[19:11:37] <awallin> I guess stepper use is different from servo..
[19:12:34] <pcw_home> the 7I32 was really made for SoftDMC with stepmotor-servos
[19:13:27] <L84Supper> awallin: the tb6560 is a toshiba chip
[19:13:32] <pcw_home> Yes servos rarely run at more than 20% of their rated current on average while stepdrives are always at max current
[19:14:49] <L84Supper> I'm using small steppers at slow speeds
[19:15:16] <pcw_home> so the 7I32 in step/servo mode is fine but for open loop its only about 2A
[19:16:35] <pcw_home> I suspect the Toshiba chips are cheaper and certainly easier to apply than 2 3959s+logic
[19:17:11] <pcw_home> but we needed angle _and_ current control for closed loop
[19:17:25] <L84Supper> and with virtually no load, the friction in the anti-backlash nut is most of it
[19:24:46] <roh> are the tb6560 boards from china really useable? was thinking about using one of those for the pcb mill... just couldnt find any proper specs so i dont know if its already having a charge pump or not.
[19:26:09] <L84Supper> http://www.toshiba-components.com/docs/Linear/TB6560AHQ_en_datasheet.pdf data sheet for the device
[19:26:23] <roh> that one i know.
[19:26:24] <L84Supper> can't say much about the boards
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[19:27:21] <roh> do i read that right that it does 1/8th microstepping?
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[19:29:34] <L84Supper> from what I've seen the designs are close to the reference design and might need some extra work for ESD protection
[19:30:58] <L84Supper> 1/2, 1/8 and 1/16 selectable
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[19:57:06] <Aero-Tec> loaded some code
[19:57:13] <Aero-Tec> a error came up
[19:57:33] <Aero-Tec> could not find t99 in tool table
[19:57:48] <Aero-Tec> I looked, there is a t99
[19:58:08] <Loetmichel> roh: yes, they are useable
[19:58:40] <Aero-Tec> so why would it error when there is a T99 listed in the tool table?
[19:59:34] <Aero-Tec> any help on this?
[20:01:53] <Loetmichel> L84Supper: right, there are a few tings a TB6560 doesent like: Overvoltage (more then 32V), sort circuits in the Motor lines, and suddenly going open motor lines.
[20:02:25] <Loetmichel> (excuse my poor grammar today, i have a heavy cold and am only 50% awake)
[20:03:35] <L84Supper> Loetmichel: no problem, I've been out of bed for 6 hours but still waking up :)
[20:06:56] <Aero-Tec> is there a preset for the number of tool?
[20:07:44] <Aero-Tec> like the number of slots in the carousel
[20:17:46] <Aero-Tec> I have been looking for some reference to number of slots in the carousel, I can not find one
[20:17:58] <Aero-Tec> what am I doing wrong?
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[20:19:31] <Aero-Tec> I thought the number limit of tool was around 1000
[20:20:02] <Aero-Tec> anyone have any info about this?
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[20:29:11] <Aero-Tec> JT-Shop: you around?
[20:30:43] <Aero-Tec> KimK: are you around?
[20:31:30] <Aero-Tec> skunkworks: need some help if your around
[20:40:59] <Aero-Tec> ok, can someone explain this more?
[20:41:11] <Aero-Tec> The above tool table format ignores spaces and tabs. You can try to space/tab as you prefer, but if you use the built-in tool table editor, it will likely rewrite your spaces/tabs to the default style.
[20:41:13] <Aero-Tec> In general, the new tool table line format is:
[20:41:14] <Aero-Tec> • ; - opening semicolon, no data following
[20:41:16] <Aero-Tec> • T - tool number, 0-99999 (you can have a large number of tools in inventory)
[20:41:17] <Aero-Tec> • P - pocket number, 1-99999 (tool table has a lower number of entries, currently 56.)
[20:41:19] <Aero-Tec> • X..W - tool offset on specified axis - floating-point
[20:41:21] <Aero-Tec> • D - tool diameter - floating-point
[20:41:23] <Aero-Tec> • I - front angle (lathe only) - floating-point
[20:41:25] <Aero-Tec> • J - back angle (lathe only) - floating-point
[20:41:26] <Aero-Tec> • Q - tool orientation (lathe only) - integer, 0-9
[20:41:28] <Aero-Tec> • ; - beginning of comment or remark - text
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[20:41:30] <Aero-Tec> The file consists of one opening semicolon on the first line, followed by up to a maximum of 56 tool entries, see note below.
[20:41:31] <Aero-Tec> Earlier versions of EMC2 had two different tool table formats for mills and lathes, but since the 2.4.x release, one tool table format is used for all machines. Just ignore the parts of the tool table that don’t pertain to your machine, or which you don’t need to use.
[20:41:33] <Aero-Tec> Although tool numbers up to 99999 are allowed, the number of entries in the tool table, at the moment, is still limited to a maximum of 56 tools for technical reasons. The EMC2 developers plan to remove that limitation eventually. If you have a very large toolchanger, please be patient.
[20:41:35] <Aero-Tec> Each line of the tool table file after the opening semicolon contains the data for one tool. One line may contain as many as 16 entries, but will likely contain much fewer.
[20:43:53] <Aero-Tec> if I am reading this right, I can have a tool number of 99999, but only 56 active tools in the tool table
[20:44:16] <awallin> that's how I read it also. what would you want to do?
[20:44:27] <Aero-Tec> so I rem out the tools I am not using?
[20:44:59] <Aero-Tec> I am trying to find out why my code error
[20:45:20] <Aero-Tec> would like to load all tools
[20:45:33] <Aero-Tec> and not have to screw around
[20:45:51] <Aero-Tec> I like 99999, do not like 56 so much
[20:45:53] <Aero-Tec> lol
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[20:49:39] <Aero-Tec> anyone know if reming a tool line will work to keep the tool number down?
[20:50:06] <Aero-Tec> would hate to redo things over each time I change tooling
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[20:57:42] <Tom_itx> say what?
[20:57:50] <jdh> 'what'
[20:57:57] <Tom_itx> thank you
[20:59:07] <pcw_home> You have more than 56 tools?
[21:06:12] <pcw_home> I suppose you could work around the 56 limitation by having have different tool table files for different job types (until this is fixed in LinuxCNC)
[21:06:14] <Tom_itx> is that too many?
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[21:08:26] <pcw_home> Yeah I think so, though ISTR some discussing on fixing it
[21:08:39] <Tom_itx> i didn't realize the limit was that low
[21:08:59] <pcw_home> NML message size limitation or something like that
[21:09:17] <Tom_itx> it's not unusual for machines to have large tool changers
[21:10:22] <pcw_home> yeah though I guess you could patch around the limitation with a set of tool.tbl files
[21:13:04] <Tom_itx> one of ours had 99 and another 119
[21:13:23] <Tom_itx> i don't think we ever filled them though
[21:16:41] <pcw_home> you can specify a large number of tools (or pockets) but the whole table cannot have more than 56 entries
[21:22:39] <Jymmm> Only 56?! WTH
[21:22:59] <Jymmm> was that a type, and you meant 256?
[21:23:08] <pcw_home> 56
[21:23:36] <Jymmm> Bah?!
[21:23:51] <pcw_home> you can have 100000 tools (0..99999) but maximum in a tool table file is 56
[21:24:16] <Jymmm> I don't understand the limitation
[21:24:26] <awallin> seems like something that could be fixed if someone really wanted..
[21:24:54] <Jymmm> More why was the limit there in the first place
[21:28:18] <pcw_home> Just repeating what others have said, its because of the fixed NML message size and the size of a tool table entry
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[22:07:46] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[22:20:19] <abetusk> archivist, ping
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[22:46:46] <KimK> Is there an issue with installing from script on amd64 machines? I only need sim, but the script install errors out. Any advice or comments appreciated. Errors at http://pastebin.com/m22B1Sjk Thanks!
[22:51:50] <KimK> Everybody's out enjoying the day, I'll check back after while.
[22:59:09] <cradek> what got added to your sources.list? Did you find an install script that's supposed to do sim?
[22:59:22] <cradek> I'm pretty sure the sim package is called linuxcnc-sim, not linuxcnc
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[23:22:29] <JT-Shop> Aero-Tec: I am now for a short time
[23:27:14] <Aero-Tec> just got back
[23:27:56] <Aero-Tec> this whole 56 limit threw me for a loop
[23:28:08] <JT-Shop> tool table?
[23:28:21] <Tom_itx> seems like an odd number for a limit
[23:28:28] <Aero-Tec> mach has 99 tools
[23:28:30] <Aero-Tec> yes
[23:29:00] <Aero-Tec> I read I can have 99999 tools
[23:29:00] <JT-Shop> well you can have 99999 tools but not all in the tool table
[23:29:37] <JT-Shop> which seems wrong that the code doesn't just pull in the tools it needs from the 99999
[23:31:25] <Aero-Tec> so I added 109 tools to the table, as my mach code went to 99, I had spread the tooling out based of it if was a drill, a run of the mill cutter, boring bar, cut off....ect...ect
[23:32:32] <Aero-Tec> not all 99 are full, far from it but it helped to keep thing organized
[23:33:22] <Aero-Tec> so remming out lines should work, right?
[23:33:52] <Aero-Tec> EMC will ignore thing to the right of a rem?
[23:34:06] <JT-Shop> I've never tried it
[23:34:10] <Aero-Tec> so it will not could as a tool entery
[23:34:16] <Aero-Tec> count
[23:34:18] <Aero-Tec> oops
[23:34:39] <JT-Shop> you can have more than one tool file but you need a ini for each one or change the ini which would be a pain
[23:34:45] <Aero-Tec> will give it a go, rem out all but the active tools
[23:35:19] <Aero-Tec> it is all a pain
[23:35:26] <JT-Shop> aye
[23:35:34] <Aero-Tec> I like your ide4a of it pulling just the tools needed
[23:36:05] <Aero-Tec> I can live with 56 tools in one Gcode max
[23:36:18] <Aero-Tec> but 56 total is surely a pain
[23:36:23] <JT-Shop> yea, I don't have 56 tool holders either
[23:37:23] <Aero-Tec> I like each drill size to be its own tool
[23:37:46] <Aero-Tec> that way I know the drill size by the tool number
[23:37:55] <Aero-Tec> same with taps
[23:37:58] * JT-Shop heads inside for some chow
[23:38:04] <JT-Shop> makes sense to me
[23:39:12] <Aero-Tec> the 99 limit was hard in mach for using that idea to its full extent
[23:39:45] <Aero-Tec> thought 99999 would be heaven, I could really go to town with the idea
[23:40:58] <Aero-Tec> would be nice if the error message said more about the 56 limit
[23:41:43] <Aero-Tec> saying tool 99 was not in the tool table made one wonder WTH
[23:42:02] <Aero-Tec> seeing as the table did have tool 99
[23:43:48] <Aero-Tec> I kind of panicked at first, wondering what I did wrong and then wondering what else I have done wrong and have not fount it yet
[23:44:15] <Aero-Tec> I am good now
[23:45:00] <Aero-Tec> just did not know what was up and why T99 just vanished when it was clearly there
[23:52:54] <Aero-Tec> thanks for the help