And it might be that steppers do all that you need.
ok. so what kind of spindle lets me do rigid tapping? I am assuming that it has to have an encoder, slow and has to reverse (duh)
Anything with an encoder, and which can reverse in no more than a couple of turns.
I am new to this all so I really have no clue what I need
It also needs enough torque to rotate the tap. Do you want to tap 1/16" or 1"? (Like skunkworks does: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLcztAbgEcU&feature=plcp
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I can't think of anything thats 1" which needs to be tapped
Anyone in here using the cables from CNCrouterparts?
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It doesn't even grunt tapping that. ;)
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I tend to make ub my own cables. What's special about the CNCrouterparts ones?
I need the thickness of the connector to see if it will fit in this igus chain
just use the cat 5e/6 cables
cat5 are solid strand...
Not snap-top chain then?
Im not rich :D
Cat5 is available solid or stranded. Patch cables tend to be stranded
you can get stranded - we are using it for encoders...
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None of the cat5 cable I have is stranded ;)
Which consists of ethernet cables I cut up
I wired my machine with Cat5 stranded. I mainly cut off the RJ plugs. It's a cheap source of decent signal cable that you can buy on a sunday afternoon.
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McMaster is a little expensive for the cable carriers
$42 per meter? There has to be cheaper available?
make your own?
[00:19:17] <tjb1> http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-x-50mm-1-07M-Open-on-Both-Side-Wire-Cable-Drag-Chain-/251133643462?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a78bb4ac6
Thats 34.34 per meter
Mcmaster is like $20 per foot
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I got some small stuff for much less than that
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Even RS is cheaper than that, http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/cable-trunkings/7569082/
I need around 25x50
And if _RS_ is cheaper somethign is very wrong
Those 2 I linked were snap open
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I can get a meter of 15*50 for $19
I think that the one I linked had a snap-off top. But I might be wrong, I didn't look that carefully.
I bought a few random lengths second-hand from eBay and haven't run out yet.
[00:26:16] <L33TG33KG34R> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pcs-Cable-drag-chain-wire-carrier-10-10mm-R18-1000mm-40-/261093948458?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cca697c2a
is that good enough?
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from guy with a better rating http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pcs-Cable-drag-chain-wire-carrier-10-10mm-R18-1000mm-40-/290695734769?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43aed0e5f1
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10x10 is too small
Im gonna get this one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/25-x-50mm-1-07M-Open-on-Both-Side-Wire-Cable-Drag-Chain-/251133643462?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a78bb4ac6
whatever floats your boat... other than buoyancy ;)
Only 1 feedback on it out of 1,777 and its good...
wish I could search an item or keyword in feedback...
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so I am looking for a "geared" spindle?
Maybe. Though many of the really big machines simply use a very powerful motor.
well this isn't a bridgeport that weighs 1 metric ton...
Why state metric in that context?
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The tonne and the ton are equal for the purposes of hyperbole.
what about the spindles that people are using on their "grizzly" mills?
I think you can buy them separately
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like this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C740zS9R9kk
check the sheerline site i think they have separate spindles
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You can buy a mini-mill spindle separately: http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=1912&category=
I'll sell you one just like that, with a mini-mill attached for another $100
Not particularly cheap though, and only 350W
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This would be nice: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SETCO-6100-SERIES-SPINDLE-/221116779621
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would be nice
but we can't always have nice things
Looks like BT30 or similar. Much more useful than a collet nose
Actually, from the measurements, I have no idea what taper it is: http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html
Time for sleep. Night all
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L33TG33KG34R: the video you posted is only using the printer port
yup. I am giving up on the idea of having my machine be capable of rigid tapping
its just too small for it
I am going to stick with my original plan of using the chinese spindle and vfd combo
is there an issue using floating tap holders instead of rigid tapping
you could probably make your own if you wanted
no I am building my first CNC so I have ordered a kit from CNCRouterParts
this kit is supposed to be sturdy but all the machines I have seen that do rigid tapping are all knee mill types made of steel
right but what i'm asking is, is there a reason you need rigid tapping where a standard floating tap holder would not be sufficient
well I was just looking for the appropriate spindle to get
unless you plan on using form taps instead of cut taps, any cnc can use a floating tap holder
form taps do not like floating tap holders and really do need rigid tapping, but cut taps will take anything
I don't think a light weight alum frame with router/spindle would do tapping.
torque at low speed would be the problem with the spindle
yeah I am just giving up on that idea altogether
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uh, how big are these taps
not that big so I can just do them by hand
a little dinky 1/4 hp hand drill will drive half inch tap without much issue
I don't plan on going anything bigger than 1/2"
and if the torque curve of the motor sucks, just drive the tap faster to get into the power band
the tap holder will take up any error and it'll be fine
well the minimum rpm is 8000
so forget about reversing
that's a bit too fast.
for pretty much any tap.
I want to see someone manual power tap at 8k rpm
I used a butterfly air tool to tap all the holes on my cncrouterparts alum frame
tjb1, I've power tapped at half that
don't they come tapped?
There's a special adapter you can get to put a tap into a 3/8 rachet
With a through hole tap?
manual tapping heads reverse FAST
Wow you have a fast reaction
no reaction involved at all
Oh I am talking about throwing tap in drill chuck or collet
tapping any any substantial speed without a tapping head is stupid
No tapping heads :P
pana: doesn't 8020 tap the holes for you when you order from CNCRouterParts?
Piss on 8020
I purchased my frame from faztek.ca in canada instead of ordering it from the states. cheaper than shipping it from US.
Misumi or T-Slots
dont order anything over 8ft from t-slots though
Do you happen to be a student?
tslots has free shipping for students
well, its too late
L33TG33KG34R; im in ontario and i sell t-slot extrusion
and you need a shorter nic
you know tab complete for nicks is available
jp_: I dont know if your client supports it but I can type l33 and hit tab
aw shit. well look at that
sigh... I need to route another 12 awg wire from the panel for this hitachi VFD to work :(
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I need to do a lot of stuff to get this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3zaRatH5M
cutting steel with a plasma cutter :)
if you need more extrusion we can get you it cheaper. i know im cheaper than faztek
jp_: What brand is yours?
I got tired of dealing with 8020 distributors
Do you actually keep stock?
usually a bundle of each profile
None of the 8020 distributors keep any stock
Which is why I got pissed off and went elsewhere
Why do I need to pay sales tax because I have to order from a middle man who is ordering from out of state...
tjb1: what are you using for power transfor for x and y?
rack and pinion
You can see it on the Y in the video
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well it seems I need to spend part of my $800 in building a table to put the machine on and to get a 220V line from the panel to the afore mentioned table
jp_ what would the price be on a 10ft length of 1545
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Anyone want/need a ATi Rage 128 video card?
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umm what for?
not worth the shipping cost :)
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people like them because they bother latnecy less pana
going to make a CNC mill in a few months, how different is the concept from 3D printers? (besides, additive vs subtractive processes, more force excerted)
X Y/A and Z
sounds pretty similar, just a matter of scale
speaking of latency, I was in the middle of a cut, and my smoothstepper pops up some crappy message about running out of data points from mach3.
need to figure out how to cure that little problem
ahh i think i've found your problem
see where you said mach3
thats where it is
pretty sure thare are no smoothstepper linux drivers
even if it is ethernet SS.
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how do you like the ss?
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Someone here known as slisgrinder on cnczone?
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does anyone know of an open source PID controller for routers?
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any ideas on what would be cheaper? buying a 3 axis mill and turning it into a CNC or building everything myself?
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tjb1: slisgrinder is me
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cheaper to build your own, if you have the tools to do the job right.
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Asking once again: Anybody know of an open source PID controller for routers?
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ursa, i have seen one
ursa, can't remember the name
i'll think about it
s1dev, or get a used machine and retrofit, I made my own machine from bits of machines
i don't know if 'open source', but some guy was doing it out of his home pretty open like
er Linucxcnc is opensource
the guy in Australia selling a proprietary version seems to be working out of home.
Linuxcnc is for CNC control of mills, routers, and lathes, but doesn't provide high-accuracy router speed control
[06:08:46] <Thetawaves> http://www.vhipe.com/product-private/SuperPID.htm
is that what you are talking about?
that is the proprietary one. It's gotten good reviews, and isn't that expensive. However, there is no way to tinker with control parameters
and from past experience with PID controls, I know that the default parameters are almost always wrong
who says you cannot add that loop to linuxcnc :)
You have any idea how nasty it is to do PID control? A few years ago, an airconditioner manufacturer tried, and dropped
a million bucks before giving up.
PID is already in the software
on the other hand, there is a PID controller already there . . . . but that leaves the circuitry, and I'm no EE
what is so hard about PID?
all kinds of problems turning physical measurements into digital values, for starters
1 mil on tuning tools orr??
no, a mil on trying to develop a controller for their equipment
quantization errors, hysteresis, nonlinearity, . . . lots of problems here.
just buy an encoder and fit, the spot of paint method is liable to noise from dirt
As another example, there is a steam heating control on the market whose default parameters simply don't work. However,
they can be changed, and I know values that do work.
It is not only an encoder, but doing the proper power control, which is tricky, because it is AC not DC
PID always depends on the whole system, a set of figures may not travel
Yes, triac control. It's tricky--not difficult, actually, but tricky
I wouldn't be quite so adamant if I knew that the SuperPID controller was adaptive, but the mfctr doesn't say that it is.
btw, there is a PID library for Arduino that does include adaptive code. I'd use that if I had the rest of the circuitry.
you dont need arduino!, its all in linuxcnc
I don't know if linuxcnc contains adaptive code. Does it?
you just need the feedback and power control in hardware
what do you mean by adaptive
it is possible to have code that monitors the PID response and modifies parameters to optimize performance.
there are tools to help you set the pid values
That provides a set of PID values that are good for the conditions under which they are measured, not all field conditions.
the PID values given by those kinds of tools are generally pretty good, and one can live with them, but adaptive control still does better.
[06:23:33] <archivist_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Tuning_EMC2/HAL_PID_Loops
TNX for the url, but :) I'm still looking for the hardware.
BTW, if you know what you are doing, the only tool you really need for tuning a PID loop is a stopwatch.
not true we get loops much tighter with a scope and looking at the following error
you can use the scope as a stopwatch. To tune the loop, you need to little more than watch the number of overshoots and their timing.
the rest is calculation
Oh, and, yes, I've done it, numerous times, but never in a system that operates so fast I need a scope.
linuxcnc includes halscope to watch the parameters
Means the tools are all there--measure the error, and get the timing. But that still doesn't give me the circuitry, which is what I need.
well you just need a pwm to ac motor speed control and feedback electronics
and the circuitry for the encoder. Yeah, that's the list, and I don't have those components.
No problem finding them for DC motors, but for 5 amp AC motors, it's another story altogether
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ursa, you may fine it easier to find a dc speed control input than pwm (it is easy to filter pwm to a dc voltage)
I have a 6 amp one on my desk here for ac motor
yes, pwm to dc is easy. Can you give me a brand and model for your speed controller?
it is one of these http://www.stockelectronics.org.uk/BMS-linked.html
You know, I wonder what is across the pot's in those cheapo open-loop controls that are all over the place . . .
those are triac dimmers probably should be modifiable with the addition of some opto safety
if the pot is supplying 2-10v, wouldn't need opto safety.
just disconnect the voltage source and connect to the output of the pwm to dc filter
no those cheap things have no isolation
[06:54:31] <archivist_> http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/138518/COSMO/KMOC3061.html
wouldn't need isolation--that should be in the pwm to dc filter
the pot on those will be at mains
if there is mains across the pot, then they aren't going to be controlled by 2-10v. If there is main across the pot, it is probably not usable for this purpose
that is why I pointed at that chip documentation as the opto between the control and triac
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getting too complicated. But you've given me a bunch of good ideas that I'm going to follow up before I drop $150 on SuperPID. I think I can do the job
a lot cheaper, and better.
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thanks to your comments, that is.
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those cheap ones are basicly http://electroschematics.com/444/motor-speed-regulator-with-triac/
that kind of thing would be difficult to make work here, if it can be done at all.
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In any case, given your comments, I have enough to go on. A commercial encoder won't work, because there is no place to mount it.
but that is a problem that can be worked around. There are lots of circuits for speed detection kicking around.
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reflective optos are cheap enough
but keeping the dust away is not trivial
anyway the opto isolated MOC30xx series of triac driver chips are a starting point google for application notes for each chip you consider
yes, dust is going to be a PITA. However, because of the construction of my router, I am thinking of putting the sensor on
a swinging arm so that cleaning it off is no big deal.
As for the tirac chips, yeah, that is a good starting point. Will probably do a good bit of googling tomorrow.
btw, cncerning dust, the plastics and aluminum I am working with create very little. Healthy sized chips, but almost no dust.
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what's a good sized spindle?
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well, what's a good sized spindle that I could buy for <$300-400
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depends what you want to do
like what I want to cut?
metals mostly, steel + some soft stuff, and maybe stainless steel if I can
what sort of machine tool
honestly, I have no idea
for $500 your going to want to get an old low speed spindle i reckon
my milling machine has a belt driven spindle taken from a lathe I scrapped, is that cheap enough
any of the newer ones (ebay) are all super high speed, and have no real bearings
would craigslist be a good place to look?
at that price maybe you could get a complete machine
Valen, did you ever get your bevel gears?
so where do the people selling completely machines get their spindle motors?
complete machines have motors :)
I just used a 3 phase motor with a pulley and added a vfd
motors are easy (vs. spindles)
belt drive to lathe headstock mounted on slides vertically was my solution
s1dev, re the earlier question build v buy, I built from scraps and scrounged parts, but bought steppers and drives and some metal
I don't think I could find partially broken machines on craigslist
local scrap yard and ebay
I reckon you will have to build
just because what you want doesnt exist for less than ~$5k
I documented some of mine http://www.archivist.info/cnc/
it does not have to be pretty :)
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how did you align your Z rails?
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precision level for the left rail to be vertical, then used that and the carriage to get the other drilled and fitted
and the level had an accident afterwards machine vibration made it slide off onto the floor
new bubble cost me £80
actually one of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hilger-Watts-Precision-Clinometer-TB9008-1-with-case-/150655237207?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2313c07c57
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also used a square level
but as the floor moved it was easier to measure actual angles and transfer
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s1dev, I dont like my current column, it will be replaced with one off a http://www.collection.archivist.info/pollard.jpg
is your current one a lathe bed? or a bed from something?
yes it is a lathe bed with added angle to help with torsional stiffness
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from the lathe the head came from
top left http://www.archivist.info/cnc/stagetwo/
a hobymat MD65
revolting machine but headstock usable
your pictures always make me feel better about my own desk/workspace/tabletop/etc clutter :)
I am not the only one !
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mmmm buttery cheese sticks
jdh, er wot...99% of the normal people have "some" clutter
[13:21:39] * jthornton is always impressed with the resourcefulness of archivist_
and it nice to have everything within arms reach
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jdh I used to visit houses in my job as TV repair engineer, empty bare houses are not normal :)
jthornton, you must have long arms :)
well nothing is within arms reach for me
I feel I have an inordinate amount of clutter.
pretty much any flat space accumulates stuff. If the stuff is relatively flat, it will accumulate more stuff
I try and put away 2 things for every 1 I take out but it never seems to work
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I have run out of "away" to put stuph
I've had two arduinos on breadboards on my desk talking to each other over a cheap RF link for 2 years or so. I see them blinking occasionally when I move stuff around.
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random question - is there a way to see the currently copying file that rsync is copying?
Jymmm, the rsync is already running as a cron
then you need to have it setup to log that you could tail
ok. so no magic command to see it when already run. thanks
or add the -P to show progess during a transfer
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not unless you enabled logging
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skunkworks: perhaps a lsof | grep?
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That works for what I need - lsof | grep media
I will have to thank him when valen gets back
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quick question, i ordered an encoder, and wasn't paying attention to the output type. I recieved an open collector output, how does one hook that up to the parallel port is it possible?
open collector can just pull the signal to low
so you may need a pull-up resistor which pulls your signal to high the other times
resistor between your signal and +5v, i think
so i have 5v to pin 1 on the parport
10-in and 11-in are A and B
use a 470Ohm resistor on pin 1
[16:06:45] e-ndy- is now known as e-ndy
so you may need two pullup resistors. one for output A, the other for B :)
okay should of payed attention and bought a line driver like normal
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hi all B)
re @ home
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Loetmichel: hast du den vfd auch selbst gebaut
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an der spindel
oh lets talk in english sorry
the spindel control to your chinese one
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sorry, i cannot understand you! ;)
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okay no luck with the open collector encoder, even with pullups
Gabe_W: lathe spindel
servo, just bought it
here is the literature http://www.encoder.com/literature/datasheet-260.pdf
full number please
really, hold on
or only the connector type
the 5 pin
Thats 28,800 counts per rev in quadrature so software counting is not likely to work above about 60 RPM
did you remove the connector ?
"N" makes it less useful to me.
i don't follow?
andypugh: maybe it is cheep
I might have a use for an incremental + commutation encoder.
you say they never had taxes?
Gabe_W: It probably needs the correct supply voltage and pull-up resistance
i have pin 1 giong to the +5v
its says 5v-20v
Gabe_W, that will be outputting pulses far to fast for a parallel port to see
not at low rpms
i had a 2500 cpr on there before with no problems
The A' B' and Z' are to p-port gnd?
i have the to 10 in and 11in and 12 in
at a 48khz base-thread should be able to spin about 90rpms
1.3 rotations a second
assuming no quadrature distortion
i only need 60rpms at most
probably way lower than that
so do i have it hooked up wrong?
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I don't know, how do youhave it hooked up?
check that both input toggle with halmeter
i know the port is working i just took the other encoder off, but i did check to see that
Gabe A' B' and Z' ?
That wasn't a yes-no question
pin 10=A,pin 11=B,pin 12=Z
with a resistor between the encoder and pin A,B,C
A' B' and Z' GND ?
Ah, it's the 5-pin version without the complementary channels.
the previous encoder was a line-driver output
if it was differntial you _would not_ want to ground the 'a,'b 'z lines!
should be three resistors +5 to a b c separately
(that would short 1/2 the line driver outputs to ground)
i have a 470Ohm resistor
maybe i'll try a higher one
one? three off
each line needs its own pullup
Gabe_W: Draw us a picture of what you have?
as soon as i touch the A pin to the pin 10 it drops to ground
[17:48:03] * Jymmm hugs his new ladder =)
im getting frustrated, i know its something im not thinking about
thats possible (you have 50% chance of the output being ant a low level)
but when i rotate the shaft it stays low
maybe i can't use the input pins
sounds like a wiring error (you do have three pullup resistors?)
i tried 470,560, and a 1k
i might bust the arduino out, and see if i can't get it working with that first before i go any further
it has built in pullups
well disconnect from Parallel port and check with DVM
i left my scope at home
i feel like im in the dark
all i have is a regular voltage meter
you can use the ohms range to check without pullups
so when the sensor picks up a mark what does it do?
allows current to flow?
low Ohms when "on"
close to infinite when "off"
probe between the A pin and GND?
Yes + on A
i'll be back
(of course 5V to encoder needed)
also check your 5V to pullup resistor common (a problem here would cause your symptoms)
Also assuming you have a modern DVM (an ancient analog VOM might put to much current through the outputs RX1 range)
in Rx1 range
ancient analog had the voltage reversed sometimes/always!
as it measured the current on resistance ranges not voltage
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Yes I remember that. Dont Know if the Simpson I have is like that or not (it has a reversing switch)
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i am having a brain fart day i feel, first i disconnected it to check the A to grnd, and realized it probably doesn't work without 5v
brain fart day? :-D
so i reconected the 5v and Gnd
pcw did mention that too :)
i had already walked away
i checked the A to gnd and it should infinite
no matter what i did, and i checked B and Z the same also
i have 5v at the 5v and Gnd wire
i have 1v at the A and B and Z wires(if that matter's)
but it never changed resistance, i also did a diode check
with it completely disconected
frustrating, frustrating...i'll never leave home without my scope again
i need to read, and get a better understanding on "open collector outputs", maybe this would help
They should be switches to GND (the collector of a NPN transistor)
[18:09:01] <DJ9DJ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Collector
the diode check showed continuity from a to grund but not vice versa
er what <Gabe_W> i have 5v at the 5v and Gnd wire I hope you mean 0v at the gnd pin
i think he meant 5v between 5v and gnd :D
i do, im ignorant
bare with me
just chekin :)
diode check makes sense (most integrated NPNs have a parasitic diode from collector to GND)
I don't bare with no-one. (for which they are generally grateful)
so basically when the switch is open, current will flow from the A pin to gnd, and when its closed it will not
its a transistor
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[18:13:02] * FinboySlick is punished by his brain when it imagiens andypugh pole dancing for some reason.
so shouldn't the pull up be from gnd too 5v?
5v to A
if the resistor is to large what will i see?
slow rise times and more susceptibility to noise
i'll go try to fiddle around some more
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FinboySlick: If it helps, here is a different Andy Pugh to imagine pole-dancing: http://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=194984441&authType=name&authToken=-WQ8&goback=%2Econ
andypugh: Why does it have to be a different one though? It'd be pretty cool if you were also a hot babe on top of being a genius.
With a cool british accent on top of it, I might even fall in love.
If I was a hot babe I wouldn't get anything done, though.
how hot would you have to be?
andypugh gets hot by sliding on the tarmac
Mainly. Some parts are still sore.
I think I am getting old, I used to heal a lot faster.
fall off on grass it is softer...dont ask me how I know
You will know you're old when some parts stay sore...
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do you think the picture at the bottom of this data sheet showing the M12 connector is looking at the male or female? http://www.encoder.com/literature/datasheet-260.pdf
Gabe_W, get a magnifier and a bright light, may well be marked in the moulding
Looks like the male to me
i have a 10x loop but i would have to take the encoder off to see the pin numbers
i think im going to give up
bring my scope in tomorrow
i have literally made zero progress
the table has the colour codes of the wires
that would be great if i would be using the cable they sell
but i got mine from mcmaster
not the same colors
i had to probe the pins
screw this, im getting the arduino through a program in it, see what it can read
i can't wait until tomorrow, it will be all i think about all night
arduino is wasted time
I have a female M12 8pin cable that is opposite of the data sheet.
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You might pull the cable and check with ohmmeter the the pinout to the male connector is as shown (stick a resistor lead or some such in the receptacle)
Gabe_W: It will be showing the part that they supply.
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And it seems to be pretty clearly the view looking in to the connector.
Right, the cable docs will show the female
okay well there is one problem
(The encoder connector, that is)
i matched the wires to that picture, it should be the mirror image
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A common enough error....
hopefully i didn't mess anything up
the second set always works better.
lol, it took 2 weeks for them to make this one
i don't want a second one
you had an m12 cable made?
mirror image would just connect 5V to B (which would be open)
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it was a "sepcial order" item
so they said
which meant bend over and pucker up, because we are going to ream you for this product
for the funky CPR?
Its not funky if you're Babylonian
We have systems with 750 count encoders that do cw/ccw and are still stuck with them. (gets harder to source them)
7200 lines is 1/80 of a degree per count
CW/CCW is pretty odd
the 750 is the more odd part evidently. It only goes one direction so the cw/ccw isn't very interesting.
and a little-lump-in-the-cable adapter would be easy
Who here is running a plasma table with a water table?
That doesnt help :P
Holy balls…$450 for 2 piece of 5x5' 11 gauge with bent ends
I could buy the metal and the brake almost for that price
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JT-Shop-2: What did you pay for you water pan
its 28,800 counts total
and it still doesn't work
so its zero counts
I called my metal supplier and she said $140 just for a 5x10 sheet of 11 gauge which is pretty reasonable
Ill just weld the sides on
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actually when i hooked it up in mirror from before the voltage between 5v and gnd dropped to 2v
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so i just twisted all the wire's together and hooked to the ac main
don't worry the breaker was off...
but i felt better
tjb1: I have no idea
it was several years ago
what does the pull up resistor do?
pulls the open collector to 5v, it supplies the collector current
it doesn't seem to work
The open collector output is a switch to GND. When the switch is on it will be at GND potential
When off the output is unconnected, so the pull-up resistor "pulls up" the output to 5V
as soon as i touch the A or B channel wire to the in pin, it drops to gnd
no matter what size resistor i use
if it is currently low then that is correct
that sounds like a parallel port issue
Yes and theres that
is the parallel port pin high with just the pullup?
you need to rotate the encoder, very very slowly to see it changing
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Gabe_W: Which "the pin" do you mean?
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Hey JT-Shop - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3zaRatH5M
That's pretty speedy
Seems like a lot of Z travel for a plasma?
I think you need more Z :)
here's a simplified schematic of an open collector circuit, the transistor has been replaced with a switch as an equivalent
I actually wish I had 4" of Z travel
Well with the 8" carriage there I only have 7
Thats if I run it to both extremes
when the collector of the transistor is Open the output is pulled up to the Vsupply
And there is ~5" between the top of water table and bottom of gantry
so only 2 inch extra which will allow about an inch each side for limits and stuff
seems like you don't need any more Z than what fits under the gantry
when the collector is closed it pulls the output down near the Ground
being able to raise the torch up to change tips will be a nice feature
I would have thought you don't technically need any more than the thickness of material you expect to cut?
Its about good JT, andypugh I will also have the DWP611 router on it
and I wanted to use the 8" carriage with a router instead of the 4"
It definitely doesn't hurt.
If you need to drill, and so need a chuck, suddenly you run out of Z rather quickly
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i usually use a collet chuck for less z waste
Router collets seem to only come in a very few sizes though.
And I am serioulsy thinking about making a BT30 collet with the taper cavity bored up insie the BT taper.
making collets is hard :(
JT-Shop, care to help me figure out the numbers I need for the rack and pinion configuration
at least to me
I wouldn't make the collet. Just the tapered cavity. Possibly in-situ bored by the magic of CNC.
For the stepconf
how many steps per inch?
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How to get the leadscrew pitch for the rack and pinion
what spot diameters are found with the CO2 lasers used by people here for cutting?
tjb1: Stepconf tries to do all the sums for you, but it might be easier to just set all values to 1 and just enter microstep and use the steps-per-inch as motor steps per rev.
how many teeth on the pinon?
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what is the pitch of the rack?
andypugh: if I did that it wouldnt be correct would it?
tjb1: Alternatively, use the real 200 steps per rev, and enter the travel-per-rev as leadscrew pitch.
CNCRP says it is 22 teeth on a 1" pitch circle
so I got 3.14" as the Diametral pitch
Pitch circle is irrelevant
So one rev would be 3.14"?
any other gearing
Its a 2.73:1 reduction from the stepper
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Actually, ignore what I just said.
so 200 steps per rev X microsteping X 2.73 = one rev at the output shaft
the rack is 20 teeth per inch?
I cant find that info
If your pitch circle is 1" then the travel is 1" per rev.
there you go
(as long as pi =1)
(You were right with the 3.14, but use more digits)
So it would be pi is the distance travel per rev?
OK, starting from the beginning. You have a 22DP gear. 22 teeth on a 1" dia pitch circle.
and then for pulley teeth(motor:leadscrew): I put in 2.73:1
andypugh: this is exactly what it says - http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=TN9dCv5L
Pitch circle circumference is 3.1415…"
22 tooth gear with 1" pitch circle
20 pitch rack 20 degree pressure angle
So you don't need any more numbers. You travel 3.14…" inch per rev, so the effective pitch is 3.14"
Actuallay reading that now that I am not dead tired it appears I need to take 3.142/2.73
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However, Stepconf in Imperial is expting TPI, not pitch. So your "leadscrew pitch" is 1/3.14
So 1.15076653978 linear travel per rev?
Sounds about right, yes.
So the pitch is something under 1 lol
Put it this way, the final SCALE value in the INI neesd to be either pi/2.73 or 2.73/pi and it will be pretty obvious if it is wrong.
(all x microstep x steps/rev)
Well I get .8689 rev per inch the way I did it
2.73/pi = .8689
Use more digits
That should be enough. But they are free and the computer doesn't care.
does pitch circle matter? If the 22 tooth pinion - doesn't it go 22 teeth per rev on the rack? (never thought about racks before...)
skunkworks: Just consider the gear and rack as a wheel and track. The wheel diameter is the PCD. That's all there is to it.
or 1.1 inches per rev?
andy, do I need to put 2.73:1 in the boxes above?
Pulley teeth (Motor:Leadscrew):
skunkworks: Yes, it does 22 teeth per rev, but how far is 22 teeth? That depends on the pitch, which is in terms of DP.
ah - ok
And a 22 tooth 22DP gear and a 132-tooth 132DP gear both move pi inches per rev.
2.73:1 in the Pulley Teeth?
tjb1: Or use the actual tooth counts
Which would boil down to 2.73:1
Isn't 273 prime? That makes me think there is rounding there too.
Have to wait until I get back home to count them
(assuming it isn't a 273:100 ratio)
Ah, no, Wikipedia says that it is 3 x 7 x 13
Well thanks, I will let you know how it goes
Probably wednesday night
I also couldnt get Velocity over 1.1 in / s in stepconf
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Well, isn't this interesting? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Tan_Tethera
tjb1: It was clearly moving a lot faster than that in the video
Couldnt get it higher in the step conf test axis
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Okay well end of the day, and though i stopped working on it because of other obligations. I will be bringing my scope in tomorrow and really look at whats going on with the encoder
would cable length cause an issue?
its a 12ft cable
extremely long for what i need
grounded on one end only?
yes, i guess i will be able to tell tomorrow
see the noise in the scope
well im off building linux from scratch at home so thats why i haven't been on the forumn
went to IMTS last weekend, amazing how much things change in 2 years
i want a 3d printer
it blow's my mind how it can make a working unit moving parts and all
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eBay is a strange place. I just bought http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320843776796
for £140 from a bricks-and-mortar shoppe.
They even say "RRP £220" then have the price at £289
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what does the 700c imply?
Just a wheel size
this is my new bike http://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-us/bikes/model/revel.1.black.blue/9042/48918/
Your bicycle taste differs from mine as much as your motorcycle taste :-)
I like fast, light, uncomfortable and inpractical.
somewhat dangerous on the highway in my opion
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and we have 26 miles of trails just a couple of miles from my house
I cycle to work, as long as the weather is good. If the weather is bad I use the R1
I walk to work no matter what the weather
how far do you cycle to work?
that won't take long at all
ok it's loaded
do they have proper places to ride a bike or do you have to share with cars?
Roads are the proper place to ride a bike.
I strongly resist the notion that bicycles belong on the pavemant, or only on special tracks.
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the problem around here are the roads are high speed 65 mph and if they are 2 lane 55 mph so you might get run over if your not careful
there are folks that ride on the shoulder of the road but not many
Most of my journey is urban 30/40 limit.
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that sounds like a safe place to ride a bike
what do most people use for moving the table on a CNC mill, a screw?
For skunkworks... a forklift.
[22:22:03] <tjb1> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pD3zaRatH5M
s1dev: On a milling machine, a ballscrew is customary
Because the cutting forces tend to be quite high, and travel speeds low.
nema23s are typically used, correct?
Only on the very smallest machines
and on the larger machines?
Ac servos, DC servos, hydraulics.
I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35tHYaDUmZQ
(LinuxCNC) is using large DC servos, as it is quite old. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35tHYaDUmZQ
NEMA 23s would struggle a bit
Jymmm: isnt that exciting
(I love the way that that machine looks to not even be working hard, but the pile of chips grows rather rapidly)
tjb1: Can't tell, tell the cameraman to quit fucking jumping up and down =)
Hard to hold a keyboard and a phone Jymmm ;)
tjb1: duct tape the phone to something STILL
tjb1: congrats btw =)
Damn FCC... H U R R Y U P ! ! !
What did the FCC do?
tjb1: NOTHING, that's the problem =)
What are you trying to get done
s1dev: However, my little mill runs NEMA23 steppers, yes. But the one I am workikng on to replace it is 500W servo motots.
I took my General and passed exam on saturday and just waiting for the records to get updated
Missed Extra by 3 quesitons
500W.... that's a lot of power....
will study and take that this weekend
s1dev: It's a bigger machine. But not huge.
what's the size?
Whats this for Jymmm
Servos typically run at a fraction of their rated power.
tjb1: amateur radio / ham radio
s1dev: No good video yet (it still doesn't run) but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxrzJ_KfcQ0&feature=share&list=UUexvgsGz_QFvOublovDYoTQ
tjb1: I'm surprised that I didn't just get 3 questions right, one of them being my name!
You missed a question that was your name?
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s1dev: Mine are running on simple rectified mains, so about 300V
any idea on whether NEMA23s would work good for a 12x24" table for a mill?
But I also have some running on 24V. it maily depends on what motors were cheap on eBay
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I think that a machine that size would be a bit better on 34s. Or preferably servos.
But if you are prepared to cut and move slowly, 23s would work.
What is the machine?
3 axis mill
Make? Model? Mass?
my thought is to build a machine
What do you want to machine?
soft metals and steel mostly
MAYBE stainless steel, but that wouldn't happen very often
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A machine to do that probably wants to be made of fairly big lumps of cast iron.
Which isn't a problem (iron castings are fairly cheap) but machinign the castings gets you into something of a bootrstrap problem
not to mention machining castings FOR machines is a specialized skill in of itself
It's almost certainly going to be easier and better to buy a base machine and retrofit/convert
any brands to avoid?
How much space are you looking to occupy?
not quite sure, but less than a room :P
And what sort of things do you want to make?
not anything specific in mind but I'll only need 3 axis
possibly a 4th,
but that can be added later
generally speaking, a knee mill is considered the bee's knees for most hobbyists - the bridgeport form factor
It's perfectly OK to just want to make a CNC machine, but if you want to make jewellry then the advice will be different from if you want to make race car engine parts.
Though it is worth noting that very tiny accurate stuff tends to need a very stiff machine.
I'm not going to be making small stuff, so that's good, and the table size was just a thought, maybe once I get a mill I could use that to make parts to make it larger
For example the guy making these: http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=conrods
Is using really quite a big (but very accurate) machine.
accuracy and size are not terribly related
also, it's worth noting that the machine he's using appears to be a Deckel, which has always been a very high accuracy machine meant for die work
I don't think tolerances of an F1 would be needed too
up next the button box... last part of the BP conversion YIPPIE!
I have handled one of his conrods, they are _lovely_ (I am helping with a LinuxCNC conversion on his lathe)
toastydeath: And yes, it's a Deckel FP2A: http://www.f1-2000.co.uk/index.php?f=new_workshop
Which is a rather huge machine considereing the 300mm cube work envelope.
criticism of deckel, it's way overpriced for what it is
it's a very nice machine but they go for way too much money, lots of older people with money to drive the price up want them
do you think I could get this, create parts for a larger table out of steel, then use the spindle from that to create a CNC using the larger parts for the table
[23:05:38] <s1dev> http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689
s1dev, i'd recommend not using steel, and the answer is probably no if you want any degree of accuracy
Steel and machine tools don't mix in terms of construction
what would you use?
also, you are limited to the accuracy of your machine
what would be limiting there?
if you start with a $500 mill, that's the maximum accuracy you will have - and the error tolerances stack quite badly when a whole machine is put together
Steel is OK, really. Stiffness is very close to iron (unlike Aluminium which is only about 30% of steel/iron)
steel is bad because of chatter
you lose a large amount of the static stiffness to dynamic effects
gray iron and epoxy/granite composites are much, much better in that regard
if you're building forging equipment, however, steel is the way to go - it makes for a more efficient hammer
press equipment doesn't much care
I suspect that the problem with steel is not that it is really less damped (though it is) but that it's really easy to make iron castings thick and strong. Fabricated steel will always be less contuiguous.
it actually makes a huge difference
I don't have any of the papers on the subject anymore, but the damping of cast iron is the main reason for its continued use.
so what parts of http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689
make it bad to use as a base for a CNC?
s1dev: How long have you been planning this project?
so much so that modern machine castings are designed with FEA to be dynamically stiff at the expense of static stiffness
andypugh very early stages
depends on what your goals are and what you plan to do
detrimental to accuracy
for a lot of people that machine is fine
and what is "any degree of accuracy"?
s1dev, it's all subjective
s1dev: Can I suggest that you read, and discuss, and plan for at least a month before pressing any "buy" buttons?
at least it has a solid column
I like me G0704...
I've run machines that locate accurately to .0001" within the envelope
whereas most knee mills aren't anywhere near that
and the machine you're looking at is worse still
andypugh I'm definitely going to be reading, discussing, and planning for atleast several months
toastydeath at what time of day? :)
i've found temps will alter the accuracy
Tom_itx, any time of day, they've got coolers on them
they have to
our little okuma kadet would vary maybe .0001 or so throuout the day
toastydeath my calipers can't even read to .0001" so that's pretty useless to me
okuma is a great machine
yeah i like them
s1dev, but you can understand how accuracy is subjective
everyone in this room has a different view of what accurate is, and you'll have to figure out what you need if you want feedback that is tailored to your goals
we had one with a pallet changer but most didn't
i personally hate tiny desktop mills and would never buy one, but there are loads of people who absolutely love them and work on them every day
yes, that was why I was confused by " and the answer is probably no if you want any degree of accuracy"
get what fits the budget
and what fits the space
s1dev: This is my machine 3 years ago: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95B8PDlnajk&feature=share&list=UUexvgsGz_QFvOublovDYoTQ
It's a chinese Mini Mill / Lathe and I was reasonably happy with it at the time (all NEMA 23, for referece). But with experience the deficiencies for the sort of thing I want to make (and I stress that last bit) became obvious.
it kills me to play with my sherline but it's what i got
s1dev, using a desktop mill means making lots of adjustments to it constantly
maybe to .005"?
I'm just throwing out a number, but that seems to be accurate enough
whereas on a big machine that's by a good manufacturer, if I type in "5.000" that's where it goes
less accurate machines mean more shimming and bending the part to get it to cut straight, more cutting and measuring
I like my lathe as long as I don't go too near to the Colchester Student that th Motor Club have :-)
smaller machines mean more fitting work and careful design so you can use loose tolerances
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assemble in place and machine as an assembly, stuff like that
some people love that level of craftsmanship, others don't
some have to tolerate it too :)
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take a trip to some of the home shop websites and forums
stay out of the CNC stuff, just to see how people do a lot of machining in general
i could show you one
and you'll get an idea, as you watch more project pictures and whatnot, the working differences and limitations of each
suggestions on the small ~$600 mills?
the problem is this - if you're buying new, pretty much everything is in the same category around that price mark.
[23:20:35] <Tom_itx> http://www.users.qwest.net/~kmaxon/page/side/mill100_137.htm
different models have different horrifying downsides to them, and you really have to investigate on the forum each different one
i envy him
to see which one is most popular, best, etc
used, you could probably find a local bridgeport or knee mill for about that if you hang out long enough
but at that point you're buying a relative unknown
s1dev: Where are you, in a global sense?
or to be more specific, Texas
lotsa oilfield and turret lathes around those parts
should have plenty of machine tools
oilfields are out West unfortunately
it's okay, the industry permiates the coasts
sucks if you're stuck in the middle/panhandle, though
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i mean keep an eye on it
toastydeath where are you?
but auctions, estate sales, etc
asset sales for closing shops
it's an Internet Person Mistake to think that people with machine tools use the internet to sell the majority of them
most machine tool deals are done without having any trace of the machine on the internet
often hard to find
be right over
you didn't even hear the menu
yeah i'm going to a burrito joint
LOL does it matter?
it's not even in my house
[23:27:45] * JT-Shop tries to remember where the sealtight is...
s1dev: Big budget-stretch but: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Bridgeport-CNC-milling-machine-Textron-Vertical-Mill-Series-1-/271058277814?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f1c5515b6
newer than the boss 5 we had
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tooling looks like crap
Might clean up, might not
it's _possible_ that the tapers (inside the rack) are cleaner.
Do they do rust in Texas?
depends how far south
near the coast they would
likely worn out milling oil rig stuff
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I suspect that even a worn-out bridgeport beats my machine.
yeah it's right on the coast
real close to Houston/Galveston
At least the BP slides fitted each other once. Mine were wrong from the factory.
Galveston is on a peninsula
I got my lathe from a dealer in Ft Worth
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i saw the water line on the buildings in Galveston after Katrina
well above the doors
maybe the mill is rusted on the inside then
getting close http://imagebin.org/228780
They claim that the slides and screws are like new. That's plausible as they are protected from coolant. You would certainly want to look before biding.
i'd give $1200 for that one :)
andypugh yeah, it's rather humid down there all the time
why is it that old Bridgeports are $1-2K yet new Bridgeports are $15K+
get a Jet
There is a bit of a gap between Sherline and Bridgeport with not a lot of good stuff in it.
quick switch tooling
quick switch tooling is worth several grand?
My Harrison is nicely in the middlem but they are not common
they are about $100 each when not rusty
JT-Shop: I have a feeling that one of the components does gray conversion, but is named in a way to conceal the fact?
my BP in the photo I just showed uses them
uh yea I think so
let me go look on the CHNC
Yeah, that would work
I think it is the only one that has gray code option
Tom_itx: see the BP?
[23:47:30] * JT-Shop sees why andy asked that question
We ought to have a gray-code converter comp really.
it would be easier to find
arbitrary width, preferably
makes more sense than tacking it onto mux
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i saw yours
that looks like a short table
maybe it's just the pic
42x9 with 24" of X
6' long counting the servo lol