#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-08-15

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[00:11:27] <elmo40> Tom_itx: no chip conveyor :(
[00:12:02] <r00t4rd3d> arduino powered mech warrior:
[00:12:03] <r00t4rd3d> http://imgur.com/a/NKUI3
[00:12:07] <elmo40> JT-Shop: yes, hydraulic 3-jaw
[00:12:30] <Tom_itx> can you get jaws for it?
[00:12:35] <Tom_itx> that's always handy
[00:12:43] <r00t4rd3d> "Quadrupedal Mech"
[00:12:50] <elmo40> add a sink to the diode
[00:13:11] <elmo40> eBay has a conveyor for the SL-3, $600 :-P
[00:13:20] <Tom_itx> heh
[00:13:50] <Tom_itx> make a tray to fit inside
[00:14:11] <Tom_itx> lathe shavings are stringy anyway usually
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[00:14:20] <Tom_itx> clog up the chip conveyor
[00:15:21] <elmo40> this one is very similar, though it has 6-tool locations, I believe this one only has 5 http://qurl.org/MV1
[00:16:33] <Tom_itx> so what's wrong with it?
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[01:32:04] <Jymmm> At what temps does SS anneal?
[01:32:45] <r00t4rd3d> guess 1200f
[01:33:03] <r00t4rd3d> not sure what anneal means though
[01:35:15] <mozmck> soften
[01:35:59] <Tom_itx> what type of stainless?
[01:36:19] <Jymmm> 304 302
[01:36:33] <Tom_itx> 304 316 430?
[01:37:20] <Tom_itx> http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/304_304L_Data_Sheet.pdf
[01:37:57] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: got one for 316 too?
[01:38:08] <Tom_itx> Annealing: Heat to 1900 - 2050F
[01:38:08] <Tom_itx> (1038 - 1121C), then cool rapidly.
[01:40:13] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: got a datasheet for 316 too?
[01:40:35] <Tom_itx> http://www.askzn.co.za/tech/tech_grade_316.htm
[01:40:52] <Tom_itx> Heat from 1 010oC to 1 120oC and cool rapidly in air or water. The best corrosion
[01:40:53] <Tom_itx> resistance is obtained when the final annealing temperature is above 1 070oC.
[01:41:32] <Tom_itx> heat treat isn't always a temp, rather a process
[01:43:04] <Jymmm> I'm more interested in the characteristics when it's exposed to 1200F+ for 20+ minutes.
[01:43:57] <Tom_itx> what is that high temp stainless sons of guns used in that cannon sized flame thrower?
[01:44:02] <Tom_itx> you should find that out
[01:44:21] <Tom_itx> that's the metalurgy you're looking for
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[01:45:27] <Jymmm> that 316 link looks about right and it's already annealed
[01:45:51] <Valen> stainless generally only work hardens and even then only sometimes
[01:46:13] <Valen> do keep in mind behaviour at temperature would be different to cooled after aneling
[01:46:22] <Jymmm> Valen: I'm concerned about it softening, not hardening =)
[01:46:54] <Tom_itx> maybe you should email one of the suppliers
[01:47:04] <Tom_itx> http://www.askzn.co.za/tech/tech_selection.htm
[01:47:18] <Valen> there are curves for things like UTS vs temperature, people use it to make rockets with
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[01:49:37] <r00t4rd3d> north korea?
[01:50:37] <Valen> not quite
[01:50:50] <Valen> armadillo aerospace and a bunch of other "new space" groups
[01:53:43] <r00t4rd3d> that sounds korean
[01:53:57] <r00t4rd3d> armadillo aerospace
[01:54:11] <r00t4rd3d> armadillo's dont fly!
[01:54:53] <Tom_itx> Jymmm you know they use foil for heat treat process too?
[01:55:01] <Tom_itx> wrap metals in ss foil
[01:55:16] <Jymmm> yeah, I have some
[01:55:26] <Jymmm> 0.002 ss tool wrap
[01:55:27] <Tom_itx> http://www.finishing.com/125/45.shtml
[01:55:35] <Tom_itx> that might have something of interest. who knows
[01:58:52] <elmo40> Tom_itx: what is wrong with the SL-3? It spins. X&Z moves.
[01:58:53] <tjb1> zDo you guys also put paper in the stainless bags?
[01:59:07] <elmo40> but when you want to run a program it either spins or x&z move, not both :-P
[01:59:22] <Tom_itx> good conversion machine
[02:00:05] <tjb1> We put scraps of paper in to burn the oxygen off
[02:00:42] <elmo40> Tom_itx: my thoughts exactly :)
[02:00:56] <Jymmm> tjb1: "but but but the burning paper might get too hot and melt the tool!!!"
[02:01:11] <elmo40> everything works, just not all together :-P
[02:01:11] <tjb1> I forgot about that Jymmm
[02:01:24] <tjb1> I have opened the bags to random shapes of metal before
[02:01:54] <Jymmm> heh
[02:02:19] <tjb1> Im not a fan of carburizing
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[02:03:54] <Jymmm> tjb1: rather parkerize instead?
[02:04:18] <tjb1> Never done that
[02:05:10] <Jymmm> tjb1: Step 1) Get acid to a rolling boil.
[02:05:33] <tjb1> 2) dunk face in acid?
[02:05:48] <Jymmm> 2) run like hell =)
[02:06:55] <Jymmm> Phosphating, better known as "Parkerizing", is a process involving the transformation of the surface of the steel to a rust resistant manganese or zinc phosphate. Modern chemicals for phosphating are far superior to their predecessors. Phosphating is a non-reflective, matte black finish that resists corrosion and abrasion. The coating has a sponge-like structure that entraps oil or other corrosion resistant solutions producing an excellent
[02:06:55] <Jymmm> coating for firearms exposed to high humidity and/or harsh environments. Phosphating will hide light scratches, pitting or blemishes.
[02:08:08] <Tom_itx> black chrome?
[02:08:37] <Jymmm> http://www.robarguns.com/additional_finishes.htm
[02:10:17] <Valen> ceramic coating
[02:11:12] <jdh> duracoat
[02:11:22] <Valen> sounds like the stuff
[02:12:17] <Valen> www.cerakoteguncoatings.com was the other one i knew of
[02:14:09] <alex4nder> we making guns?
[02:14:28] <r00t4rd3d> i want too
[02:14:31] <Tom_itx> Jymmm is giving us a lesson in metalurgy
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[02:15:10] <Valen> armadillo aerospace is owned by the john carmack
[02:15:18] <Valen> of ID/doom/quake fame
[02:15:48] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: you're the wooden-gun master
[02:19:44] <r00t4rd3d> i want to make a ar receiver
[02:20:01] <alex4nder> it's pretty easy to start from an 80% forging
[02:20:29] <r00t4rd3d> out of aluminum
[02:20:53] <alex4nder> yes
[02:20:58] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.cncguns.com/
[02:21:16] <alex4nder> there are people in this channel who have made them.
[02:21:46] <r00t4rd3d> did they go on a shooting spree?
[02:21:52] <alex4nder> I don't think so.
[02:21:56] <r00t4rd3d> aww
[02:22:27] <r00t4rd3d> thats the cool thing to do in America now
[02:22:44] <alex4nder> please, Norway has us beat for recent shootings.
[02:23:26] <r00t4rd3d> im not a gun person, just would be cool to be able to make one
[02:25:42] <jdh> how much is an 80% receiver?
[02:26:13] <alex4nder> jdh: depends.. $75 last I bought
[02:26:13] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/VCZWD.jpg
[02:26:15] <r00t4rd3d> $50
[02:26:36] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: for an 80%?
[02:26:44] <r00t4rd3d> no for that sign in the image i posted
[02:26:47] <alex4nder> jdh: http://www.tacticalmachining.com/80-products/80-receivers/80-ar-15-lower-receiver.html <- I've bought from these guys
[02:26:56] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: nice
[02:27:02] <jdh> $89 for a 100% (stripped)
[02:27:16] <r00t4rd3d> i can get a stripper for 10 bucks
[02:27:38] <alex4nder> jdh: some of us in certain states have trouble moving stripped lower receivers intended for pistols past the authorities.
[02:27:39] <jdh> you can get a blowjob for $10 too, but you might not like him.
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[02:28:10] <jdh> never had the urge for an ar pistol
[02:28:22] <jdh> I did see .308 somewhere the other day though.
[02:28:41] <alex4nder> owning an AR pistol helps if you're building rifles with 14.5" barrels and permanently attached flash hiders
[02:28:53] <alex4nder> because it gets around the whole constructive-possession felony thing
[02:29:40] <r00t4rd3d> so even if i make an illegal gun its still illegal?
[02:29:41] <jdh> but then it is a pistol, and can't have a stock
[02:30:00] <alex4nder> r00t4rd3d: 14.5" barrels with permanently attach flash hiders that bring them out to 16" are legal.
[02:30:27] <alex4nder> jdh: the pistol receiver is there as a prop
[02:30:27] <r00t4rd3d> even a fully auto ar15?
[02:30:39] <alex4nder> if you own a legal fully auto gun, yes
[02:30:45] <jdh> guy at work has a 12" one, with a supressor
[02:30:51] <alex4nder> yah, that's an SBR
[02:30:57] <alex4nder> which is a different story
[02:31:12] <alex4nder> "normal people" in california have a really hard time owning SBRs (i.e. they can't)
[02:31:17] <jdh> and quite a few others in various oddball calibers
[02:31:31] <r00t4rd3d> you can goto walmart here and buy an ak47
[02:31:41] <jdh> mine doesn't sell AK's
[02:31:54] <r00t4rd3d> well its not redneck enough then
[02:31:57] <r00t4rd3d> file a complaint
[02:33:23] <jdh> I could use an upper.
[02:33:56] <alex4nder> yah
[02:34:12] <jdh> it is more difficult than I thought to find someones takeoff for aa reasonable price
[02:34:24] <alex4nder> what do you mean?
[02:34:30] <alex4nder> what's 'reasonable'?
[02:34:40] <jdh> $300 with bcg/handle
[02:34:48] <alex4nder> oh, well you can get some bullshit for that
[02:34:52] <alex4nder> but $300 is the cost of a good barrel
[02:35:34] <jdh> if you were snobbier, you would say $600
[02:35:59] <alex4nder> nah, I said 'good', not 'great'
[02:36:20] <alex4nder> I can't shoot for shit; calling me a snob gives me too much credit.
[02:36:28] <jdh> I' be fine with non-rusty :)
[02:36:37] <alex4nder> oh, well you can find that
[02:36:58] <alex4nder> I guess it just depends
[02:37:12] <alex4nder> I just sold a really nice bravo company upper on a pretty basic lower for $800
[02:38:10] <Valen> I want one of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7ft2j6J4NcY#t=47s
[02:38:22] <alex4nder> fear
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[02:40:25] <alex4nder> jdh: http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Barrel_Assembly_p/dt1014.htm <- that's new.. I've seen them sell for $375 in groupbuys
[02:40:27] <Valen> i figure if i'm shooting at somebody i want them to damn well stay shot
[02:40:44] <alex4nder> Valen: until they get close enough to you to kill you with a rock
[02:41:02] <Valen> if they are that close your doin it wrong ;-P
[02:41:28] <jdh> alex4nder: yeah, they are (relatively) local.
[02:51:39] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.petapixel.com/2012/08/14/photographer-uses-his-iphones-glass-back-as-a-collodion-process-wet-plate/
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[02:58:07] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I am?
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[04:11:49] <r00t4rd3d> http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/msl-raw-images/proj/msl/redops/ods/surface/sol/00002/opgs/edr/ncam/NLA_397681736EDR_F0020000AUT_04096M_.JPG
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[04:22:18] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.engadget.com/2012/08/14/microsoft-surface-199/
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[04:47:25] <r00t4rd3d> i hate google
[04:48:24] <r00t4rd3d> they change their logo for anything these days
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[07:33:36] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[07:46:41] <stillme> hello guys, please whats the difference between 60 deg v bit and 60 deg engraving bit ?
[07:47:47] <Valen> nothing i've heard of?
[07:49:16] <stillme> i noticed that when trying to generate preview in photovcarve, the result i get from 60deg vbit setting is better that of 60deg engraving bit, all other settings being same
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[07:49:59] <stillme> so am thinking if i could use 60deg engraving bit i got even when the setting is 60deg vbit
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[07:51:18] <stillme> i think their main difference is the maximum depth they can cut, that of vbit is more
[07:51:45] <tjb1> !seen WillenCMD
[07:51:46] <the_wench> last seen in 2012-08-07 01:27:35GMT 199:24:04 ago, saying Quit: Leaving
[07:53:26] <stillme> i will appreciate any one correcting me if am wrong
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[08:11:56] <mk0> RussianKid, :) ты откуда?
[08:12:04] <mk0> where are you from?
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[08:31:23] <RussianKid> im from russia
[08:31:31] <RussianKid> all in the name
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[09:01:23] <mk0> i'm too. moscow?
[09:02:17] <RussianKid> born in moscow, moved to england in 2000, lived there ever since. now at nottingham university, designed and now making a low gantry based CNC router to cut custom water cooling components for computers
[09:03:24] <RussianKid> switched to linuxCNC because it's better in every way, been reading this channel since
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[09:08:36] <psha[work]> набижали
[09:08:52] <psha[work]> i mean glad to see forth one here
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[09:15:49] <jonasthomas-> Hello everyone... I'm organizing an event called www.osmoces.org in wheaton il, on Sat Oct 13 2012. It's a cross pollinations event with High School Robotics Teacher/Students, Engineers and the open source Maker community. I was hoping to have some introductory sessions on Linuxcnc. I'm looking for someone who might have a small desktop mill that they could print to the event and...
[09:15:51] <jonasthomas-> ...yak about it. I think I'm might have a few leads(Circ)... but I thought it might be worth asking here.
[09:17:08] <jonasthomas-> bring to the event.... (got 3d printers on the brain at the moment)
[09:45:41] <micges> jonasthomas-: hi
[09:46:35] <micges> can you post this on the emc mailing list?
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[09:52:30] <archivist> RussianKid, you are only 30 miles ish from me then near Burton upon Trent
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[11:02:33] <jthornton_> jonasthomas-, you might also try the mailing list and the forum
[11:02:40] jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
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[11:13:23] <jthornton> anyone know if at_pid works?
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[15:09:57] <timholum> I have a system that has muliple gpio pins, is there a way to configure linuxcnc to use the gpio pins directly to controll stepper's or to put the commands so a linistepper can controll it?
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[15:23:13] <jdh> I know what all those words mean, but I have no idea what you mean.
[15:23:25] <jdh> I have a system with multiple gpio pins. I use linuxcnc to control steppers with them.
[15:24:08] <jdh> I guess "to control stepper drivers" would be less ambiguous and more correct.
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[15:25:58] <JT-Shop> define 'system'
[15:26:38] <jdh> yeah, guess that's where I got lost.
[15:27:02] <jdh> I have a raspberry pi "system" with gpio pins
[15:27:03] <alex_joni> sounds like he wants to drive stepper windings directly from the GPIO's
[15:27:25] <alex_joni> linuxcnc might do that with stepgen output set to the needed phases
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[15:27:35] <alex_joni> but you still need an amplifier on each IO
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[15:28:29] <JT-Shop> hi alex_joni
[15:29:46] <alex_joni> hi JT-Shop
[15:35:23] <archivist> timholum, see the stepgen docs types 5 and up
[15:36:14] <timholum> archivist: thanks I figured it would be something easy, I just could not figure out where to look
[15:37:32] <archivist> timholum, but that is not the best way to go probably, a current limiting driver being better
[15:38:43] <timholum> archivist: would that be like a linistepper?
[15:39:54] <archivist> timholum, sort of but a bipolar driver is even better
[15:41:12] <archivist> and I see that linistepper has issues at higher currents
[15:42:51] <archivist> 99% use switching to reduce heat in the driver
[15:46:28] <timholum> I already have 3 unipolar steppers, and to get it working off the bat I am trying to get my device running as cheap as possible, then upgrade to better steppers and controllers at that time
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[15:47:04] <jdh> how big are your steppers?
[15:47:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Just foud out that SS shim stock CAN be stacked and waterjet, sheet stock not so much.
[15:47:16] <archivist> what are you building
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[15:55:37] <timholum> the steppers are 3.95v 6.1A, we bought a cncmill for $500, that the controller went out in
[15:56:08] <timholum> http://www.laxig.com/forums/topic/cnc-mill-conversion/ is the info about it
[15:56:21] <skunkworks> timholum, !!
[15:56:38] <skunkworks> I am sam from the lclug list
[15:56:43] <archivist> that linistepper will struggle at 6A
[15:56:54] <timholum> Hows it going :)
[15:56:57] <skunkworks> (with the big Kearney and trecker mill converted to linuxcnc)
[15:57:08] <Jymmm> Son of Sam is more like it!
[15:57:23] <skunkworks> exactly.. (my dads name is sam..)
[15:57:34] <Jymmm> =)
[15:57:41] <skunkworks> creepy
[15:58:02] <syyl_ws_> my shop smells like a carpentry :(
[15:58:06] <skunkworks> this was a gorton mill converted to an AHHA control which died
[15:58:09] <jdh> 8 degree stepper?
[15:58:09] <syyl_ws_> machining wood paterns for casting
[15:58:22] <archivist> timholum, there is no way I would dream of using the linistepper on that machine
[15:58:42] <syyl_ws_> that will take days to clean the wood dust off the machines
[15:59:31] <skunkworks> timholum, what drives are on the machine?
[15:59:55] <archivist> I bet the drives in the machine could be used
[16:00:09] <timholum> archivist: even if I upped the mosfet's to larger capacity one's? skunkworks: http://laxig.org/tholum/Picture/stepper.jpg
[16:01:03] <Jymmm> timholum: What motor DRIVERS do you have?
[16:01:10] <Jymmm> or it came with
[16:01:19] <timholum> Jymmm: none
[16:01:25] <archivist> look in the old control box for the drivers and power supply
[16:01:37] <Jymmm> timholum: It came with ZERO electronics at all?
[16:01:41] <timholum> unfortunatly they through the controller away, yes
[16:01:50] <skunkworks> aww - yeck
[16:02:03] <timholum> brb
[16:02:07] <Jymmm> timholum: So, the motors only came with bare wires?
[16:02:26] <skunkworks> how many wire steppers are they (actually taking the back off) maybe they could be wired bipolar?
[16:02:53] <Jymmm> skunkworks: the pic says uni
[16:03:20] <archivist> even uni can be rewired bipolar
[16:03:32] <skunkworks> right - but some brought all the wires out so you could wire them bi-polar. (not commoned.)
[16:03:39] <archivist> 8 wire is trivial
[16:03:43] <skunkworks> yes
[16:05:21] <archivist> 6 wire is trivial serial connection , 5 wire you need to get in the motor to separate and get in the motor for 6 to wire parallel
[16:05:43] <skunkworks> right
[16:06:22] <skunkworks> we have taken some older inland steppers and cut the common to wire them bipolar.
[16:06:23] <archivist> getting in motors is fun :), just did my hobbing machine motor a bit ago
[16:06:42] <skunkworks> maybe not inland - slosyn
[16:06:45] <archivist> star to delta mod
[16:10:31] <jdh> I thought opening steppers pretty much destroyed them?
[16:10:47] <syyl_> only if you pull out the rotor
[16:11:58] <jdh> what is it that fails by removing/replacing the rotor?
[16:12:49] <archivist> magnets need keepers, they lose magnetism if kept open
[16:12:49] <syyl_> i am no expert, but i heard stuff like demagetising of the rotor if pulled out
[16:13:15] <syyl_> you can put a thin piece of sheetmetal (magnetic) between rotor and stator
[16:13:19] <syyl_> then nothing should happen
[16:13:32] <archivist> so pull into a steel ring
[16:14:08] <timholum> ok, im back, Jymmm: The steppers have plugs on them, but that is all
[16:14:17] <Jymmm> ok
[16:14:19] <archivist> but keeping it clean and free from metal filings is the hard part
[16:14:51] <syyl_> attracts everything that at least looks like steel? ;)
[16:15:22] <archivist> buggers to get off too
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[16:15:49] <Jymmm> work in a glove box =)
[16:16:17] <syyl_> (trick to remove swarf from a magnet: plasticine)
[16:16:36] <syyl_> just work it over the swarf to remove..
[16:16:45] <Jymmm> http://www.air-testing-certifications.com/glove_box_dude.jpg
[16:16:50] <Jymmm> and a bunny suit too!
[16:17:10] <syyl_> that box could also be used for sandblasting ;)
[16:17:28] <Tom_itx> Jymmm his door is open
[16:17:42] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: TMI!!!
[16:18:42] <Tom_itx> i'm just saying...
[16:21:00] <Jymmm> lol
[16:22:36] <Jymmm> timholum: Just a random google search ... http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/motor/ck1405.htm
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[16:25:04] <Jymmm> Some interesting reading about ZINC http://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/phys/zinc.htm
[16:28:27] <timholum> Jymm: interesting, I will have to do some looking for other ones ( my stepper requires 3.94 volts and that drives 8 to 35
[16:28:41] <timholum> but they may have other kits avalbile
[16:29:14] <Jymmm> timholum: Most stepper motors are driven at 20 to 25 times their rated voltage.
[16:29:15] <jdh> current regulated drives run steppers at much higher voltages than what they are rated for.
[16:30:28] <timholum> rilly? I did not know that :), That will make it much easyer to find a power supply, I thought I was going to have to design my own pwm voltage controller
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[16:31:18] <timholum> so it would be ok for me to hook up a 12v or 15v powersupply to it?
[16:31:35] <jdh> to a current regulated driver, not directly to the coil.
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[16:32:53] <timholum> So, not directy to my stepper then, but wont this controller put the voltage I give it to my stepper?
[16:33:18] <jdh> briefly
[16:35:02] <timholum> ok, :) so it is ok to run the steps with a higher voltage then,
[16:36:40] <archivist> timholum, the important thing is the current, you run higher voltage to improve switching time(inductance) and motor speed
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[16:40:11] <timholum> ok, Good to know, I am pritty good with genral electronics, a bit with servos, but only the little 5v one's for basic stamp's and arduino's, but I have never actually made anything with steppers in it before so that is very good to know
[16:41:25] <jdh> I guess it obviously worked with 8-degree steppers, but a new 1.8 might be better.
[16:42:49] <timholum> jdh: I have plans on upgrading to some gecko motors latter on, but I just want to get it running as cheap as possible, mostly so if I fry something I am not out a new stepper or controller
[16:43:17] <timholum> and so after the upgrade I will have a few steppers and controller's lieing around for other projects
[16:47:16] <Jymmm> timholum: do your motors look like one of these? http://www.kollmorgen.com/uploadedImages/kollmorgencom/Products/Motors/Stepper/E_and_H_Hybrid/E_and_H_Hybrid_LARGE.jpg
[16:49:05] <timholum> simmalar to the larger one, here is an image of one http://laxig.org/tholum/Picture/stepper.jpg
[16:49:53] <Jymmm> timholum: that's not the whole motor and why I asked.
[16:50:53] <jdh> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34/nema-34-high-torque-stepper-motor-1200-oz-in-half-inc-single-shaft-with-flat
[16:52:51] <timholum> http://laxig.org/tholum/Picture/stepper2.jpg
[16:53:59] <Jymmm> timholum: Ok, it seems that PN is still active at Dahner Motion (sp), but a PITA to find the datasheet.
[16:55:04] <Jymmm> SciPac was bought out by them
[16:55:15] <jdh> or PacSci
[16:55:27] <Jymmm> or both!
[16:55:29] <Jymmm> lol
[16:55:34] <Jymmm> jdh: ty
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[16:57:12] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[16:59:28] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Did you see these? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/digistump/digispark-the-tiny-arduino-enabled-usb-dev-board
[17:02:29] <IchGuckLive> what is this mill bit called in english ? http://mechmo.de/fraeser_lang.jpg
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[17:04:08] <jdh> Ich: double-ended ball nose?
[17:05:23] <IchGuckLive> it is
[17:06:10] <jdh> anyone used a MikroTik router/AP? http://routerboard.com/RB751G-2HnD
[17:07:00] <IchGuckLive> jdh: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=double-ended+ball+nose&_sacat=0
[17:07:15] <IchGuckLive> B) O.o
[17:07:27] <FinboySlick> jdh: I have a 450G here under my desk.
[17:07:34] <FinboySlick> jdh: But I put OpenWRT on it.
[17:08:19] <jdh> cool, didn't know they would run wrt
[17:08:43] <FinboySlick> jdh: A lot of them don't. The 450G is still a bit of a hack.
[17:08:59] <jdh> nifty graphs and real time stats via the web interface in some of them.
[17:09:19] <IchGuckLive> 7/8 is this 22mm
[17:09:53] <FinboySlick> jdh: I'm pretty much sold on OpenWRT for al my embedded networking needs, but I was impressed with the DD-WRT install that comes with buffalo hardware.
[17:12:04] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: 22.225mm
[17:12:16] <IchGuckLive> :D
[17:12:18] <FinboySlick> So a tad oversized.
[17:12:26] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: jdh What's so special about THAT router?
[17:13:05] <jdh> never used one. The RouterOS looks nice though.
[17:13:21] <jdh> and cheap for the feature set
[17:13:22] <Jymmm> jdh: link to what you are seeing?
[17:14:20] <jdh> http://routerboard.com/products
[17:14:29] <IchGuckLive> someone knows toolmex in Masachusets
[17:14:52] <IchGuckLive> http://stores.ebay.com/Toolmex-Online-Outlet-Store?_trksid=p4340.l2563
[17:15:31] <jdh> http://www.mikrotik.com/software.html Try the Demo link at the bottom
[17:15:36] <Jymmm> jdh: Ummm http://www.streakwave.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=RB751G-2HnD
[17:15:49] <jdh> yeah?
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[17:15:59] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: It has some pretty solid specs ar 7xxx chips are fast.
[17:16:05] <Jymmm> I dont know, is that the same thing?
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[17:16:22] <jdh> it is one of their products
[17:17:11] <IchGuckLive> antennas built in is not good
[17:18:02] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Well, you put computer systems in metal casings, obviously it isn't for you ;)
[17:18:14] <Jymmm> jdh: sure, but is it the SAME but with an enclosure?
[17:18:14] <jdh> depends on the application. They can have remote antenna though
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[17:18:32] <jdh> they sell it with/without an enclosure
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[17:19:00] <FinboySlick> jdh: If you want ar7xxx and a good price, I'd look at buffalo hardware instead.
[17:19:11] <IchGuckLive> FinboySlick: i use speedport AP
[17:20:02] <Jymmm> why does it say "license" ?
[17:20:23] <FinboySlick> Jymmm: microtik os is not open source.
[17:20:33] <Jymmm> ah
[17:20:42] <IchGuckLive> FinboySlick: http://router-faq.de/anschluss/Speedport_W_723V_Typ_A.png it also connects the DECT telefones for the house
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[17:21:10] <jdh> I've been disappointed with every consumer AP/etc I've bought.
[17:21:13] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: That's pretty funky.
[17:21:33] <FinboySlick> jdh: Heh, did you put openwrt on 'em?
[17:21:41] <jdh> not in years.
[17:21:55] <FinboySlick> I run a pbx on my 5 year old linksys router.
[17:21:57] <IchGuckLive> FinboySlick: in germany we got almost 16.000k 16Mbit in all houses
[17:22:24] <IchGuckLive> as the TV coes also throu IP
[17:22:48] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Yeah, but your money also goes through the european central bank.
[17:22:57] <IchGuckLive> BAD
[17:23:05] <FinboySlick> Hehe.
[17:23:09] <FinboySlick> So stop bragging ;)
[17:23:21] <IchGuckLive> Greek will pull all the stuff
[17:23:43] <FinboySlick> The whole thing is a ponzie scheme, greece is just the fall guy.
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[17:24:29] <IchGuckLive> as you say
[17:25:03] <FinboySlick> Honestly, it's no better in america.
[17:25:36] <IchGuckLive> 5GB lan is this new i only thought about 1GB
[17:25:57] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: I think they mean 5x1GB as in 5 ports.
[17:26:26] <IchGuckLive> oh
[17:27:04] <IchGuckLive> my dish satreciver does a download to the pc with 500Mbit max
[17:27:17] <IchGuckLive> i never got higher
[17:27:33] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: You're limited by the packet size.
[17:27:39] <IchGuckLive> MS to ubunto only at 250Mbit
[17:27:58] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: To hit 1Gbit, you will need jumbo frames.
[17:28:24] <FinboySlick> (typically)
[17:28:33] <IchGuckLive> packet size is choosable higher is faster ?
[17:28:57] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: For bulk transfer it will be. Some things just don't really fit into larger packets.
[17:29:10] <FinboySlick> Typically, you set the MTU.
[17:29:47] <FinboySlick> For example, voip won't gain from jumbo frames.
[17:29:49] <IchGuckLive> i figured out that the HP printer in the lan did reduse the speed
[17:29:57] <IchGuckLive> i changed to a Kyocera
[17:30:11] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: If you use a switch, it shouldn't have an impact.
[17:30:12] <IchGuckLive> now im up 10times
[17:30:31] <IchGuckLive> 1GB switch is in
[17:30:53] <IchGuckLive> maybe i shoudt also check without DHCP
[17:30:56] <FinboySlick> Then I don't know how your printer could slow transfer between hosts.
[17:31:22] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: dhcp won't have an influence either.
[17:31:51] <FinboySlick> You're in europe though, maybe your government wants a copy of every packet that goes through your LAN for security purposes ;)
[17:32:02] <IchGuckLive> maybe the Switch is in 4x4 sectors and it got brighes in between
[17:32:03] <FinboySlick> that might slow youd own
[17:32:19] <jdh> NSA does wirespeed packet copying here.
[17:32:21] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: What are the bridges?
[17:33:05] <IchGuckLive> the printing on the switch is at groups of 4 4 switches
[17:33:15] <FinboySlick> jdh: I've actually met a telco installer who put that stuff in.
[17:33:27] <FinboySlick> jdh: It's pretty darn scary.
[17:33:36] <IchGuckLive> Group0 lan0...lan3 group1...
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[17:33:48] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Are you talking about vlans?
[17:34:05] <IchGuckLive> i dont know i only pluged it
[17:34:20] <FinboySlick> Seems a bit odd to me.
[17:34:38] <FinboySlick> So you have 4 switches all connected together via one of their ethernet ports?
[17:34:44] <IchGuckLive> ok it is fast enoph for the TV to bring the movies to the pc or in the other direction
[17:35:19] <FinboySlick> If you get odd speeds, you might have created a loop in the topology.
[17:35:42] <IchGuckLive> FinboySlick: no it has just 16 connectors at the back
[17:36:12] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Ok, so it's a 16 port switch, no other switch?
[17:36:31] <IchGuckLive> no only this
[17:36:54] <IchGuckLive> etch pc,sat,printer,tv got its own cable
[17:37:03] <FinboySlick> OK, that's fine.
[17:37:11] <IchGuckLive> one DHCP AP also in
[17:38:58] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: A switch will not slow down because a slower device is plugged to one of its ports.
[17:39:17] <FinboySlick> So I'm still wondering why changing your printer improved performance.
[17:39:56] <FinboySlick> With TCP, you could be falling victim of the flow-control issue.
[17:40:28] <FinboySlick> Typically you want to disable flow control on your switch ports.
[17:41:02] <IchGuckLive> ok i will go after this issue
[17:41:18] <FinboySlick> IchGuckLive: Is it a managed switch?
[17:41:30] <IchGuckLive> dont kow
[17:41:47] <FinboySlick> What model is it?
[17:42:56] <IchGuckLive> Allnet ALL8816V2 / 16 Port Gigabit Switch
[17:44:17] <FinboySlick> That's an unmanaged switch, so it won't really let you decide if it handles flow control or not.
[17:44:28] <Connor> jdh I use Mikrotik stuff! :)
[17:44:57] <FinboySlick> Connor: You have to use OpenWRT stuff instead.
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[17:45:17] <Connor> Umm Why ?
[17:45:29] <FinboySlick> Connor: Because open source.
[17:45:34] <FinboySlick> So there.
[17:45:57] <FinboySlick> Nop. No arguing.
[17:46:15] <Connor> Umm. No. MikroTik is a bit more mature than OpenWRT.. I've been using it for 8 years now?
[17:46:50] <FinboySlick> Heresy!
[17:47:45] <Connor> Normally, I'm all for Open Source.. but, in the case, Having used both, and now the capabilities of both.. I choose MikoTik. Nuff Said. :)
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[17:51:26] <Thetawaves> thanks for showing mikrotik
[17:51:28] <Thetawaves> shit looks awesome
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[17:55:06] <Connor> so, what are we talking about with regards to MikroTik and OpenWRT and the routerboards ?
[17:55:45] <jdh> O
[17:56:06] <jdh> I'm looking for a better router/ap/etc device.
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[17:56:30] <Connor> jdh: I used MT stuff all the time when I was Sysadmin for ISP.
[17:56:36] <Connor> I'm currently using on for my home router, have 1 at my datacenter, client using 2 of them.
[17:57:01] <Connor> different models.. but.. all running MT OS.
[17:57:37] <jdh> the best place for the router is not a good place for an AP
[17:58:02] <Connor> I even built a Enterprise class firewall out of a P4 with 2 x 4 Ethernet cards running the MT OS on a IDE DOM
[17:58:26] <Connor> http://www.roc-noc.com/
[17:58:57] <Connor> OH. You mean for installation..
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[17:59:49] <jdh> yeah. External antenna would probably fix that, but that doubles the price.
[18:00:00] <Connor> No it don't.
[18:00:05] <Connor> just depends on the model.
[18:00:07] <jdh> so, what MikroTik for a normal house
[18:01:59] <Connor> Look for one with the RB433L board.
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[18:02:12] <Connor> Cheaper board, has 3 mini-pci slot
[18:02:43] <Connor> how man ethernet ports you need ?
[18:03:16] <jdh> 4 or 5. I have 4 + a switch now
[18:03:45] <Connor> most of these either have 1 or 3 till you get into the more expensive ones, or ones without wifi
[18:04:27] <jdh> http://www.roc-noc.com/product.php?productid=446&cat=&bestseller=Y
[18:04:39] <jdh> can you just plug one of those in a switch port?
[18:04:57] <jdh> err, not that, one of the ethernet ones.
[18:04:57] <Connor> not that one. It's USB
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[18:05:57] <Connor> you have a machine not able to get to the wifi ?
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[18:06:44] <jdh> yes. The only good place for the wan+ethernet to reach is not a great place.
[18:06:46] <Connor> might be easier / cheaper to just hang a AP off one of your Ethernet ports were it can give access to everythnig.
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[18:08:24] <jdh> these all seem to be 2.4ghz only
[18:09:23] <Connor> I personally just configure my own..
[18:09:35] <jdh> your own what
[18:09:54] <Connor> On the ones that have the mini-pci slots.. you can specify what radio cards you want in them.
[18:09:59] <jdh> oh
[18:13:19] <Connor> the R52 79mw radio is a/b/g
[18:14:00] <Connor> R52H is the same one, just 350mw.
[18:14:05] <Connor> might be better choice.
[18:14:19] <Connor> http://www.roc-noc.com/mikrotik/routerboard/rb411-complete.html
[18:14:27] <jdh> so only one needed?
[18:14:39] <Connor> Are you doing 5gz ?
[18:15:42] <jdh> how do you have a 1 port router.
[18:15:44] <Connor> OH. and you need Level 4 OS license for a AP
[18:16:04] <Connor> It's not a router, it would be a Access Point, or Client
[18:16:31] <jdh> Mikrotik RouterBoard RB/411AR RB411AR complete 1 port 10/100 router assembled with indoor case
[18:16:36] <Jymmm> 24GHz FTW!!!
[18:16:39] <jdh> it says it is a router
[18:17:45] <jdh> this is the point I usually say fuckit and go get another PoS consumer device from the store.
[18:18:08] <Jymmm> jdh: lather rinse repeat
[18:18:51] <Jymmm> jdh: this didnt look bad http://www.streakwave.com/Itemdesc.asp?ic=RB751G-2HnD
[18:19:24] <Connor> Well, 1 single port ethernet + 1 wifi can be a router. You could use VLAN and a vlan capable switch.
[18:19:51] <Connor> Jymmm: No external atenna
[18:19:55] <jdh> so, $166 for that, then $xxx for the switch
[18:20:06] <Jymmm> Connor: has jack for one if you read description
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[18:20:39] <Connor> jdh: That's why I was asking... Leave your existing router like it is, and hang a AP off in a better location
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[18:20:57] <Connor> All-in-one not always the best solution. :)
[18:21:09] <Jymmm> jdh: why a new one? broken? extended coverage?
[18:21:18] <jdh> Connor: I dislike the router portion of my existing one also.
[18:21:24] <Connor> ok
[18:22:01] <jdh> If it didn't involve crawling under my house, I'd just run ethernet to someplace better and hang a WAP there.
[18:22:47] <andypugh-iPhone> MattyMatt: http://m.iwantoneofthose.com/gift-novelty/manic-miner-mug/10491965.html
[18:24:12] <Jymmm> andypugh-iPhone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v47oE1ZylCg
[18:24:55] <Jymmm> andypugh-iPhone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge6bv69aBRw&NR=1&feature=endscreen
[18:25:30] <Connor> http://www.roc-noc.com/mikrotik/routerboard/RB751U-2HnD.html
[18:25:31] <andypugh-iPhone> Sat outside a bar on the coast of Italy, watching girls in bikinis walk past. You think I am going to look at YouTube?
[18:25:56] <Connor> thats the same one Jymmm was show in streakwave.. Does have a MMCX connector for a external antenna
[18:26:05] <andypugh-iPhone> Oh, and I am being paid to be here:-)
[18:26:11] <Jymmm> andypugh-iPhone: yes
[18:26:12] <Connor> I've never used it.
[18:26:20] <Jymmm> andypugh-iPhone: you are too much of a geek not to
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[18:31:15] <andypugh-iPhone> Jymmm: I didn't need to see videos of a mug about a game I still sometimes play.
[18:31:34] <Jymmm> hahahahaha
[18:33:02] <andypugh-iPhone> It's still a good game, it has the sort of gameplay that only a hyper-focussed 15 year old can create.
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[19:17:22] <Tom_itx> Jymmm that board is probably a atmega8u2 which is pretty small for anything
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[19:28:34] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Sure, but one-off dedicated and cheap enough to leave in and not have to design/make your own pcb
[19:32:15] <Jymmm> Is there a large/jumbo/industrial version of an "automatic hand punch"? something with a little more umph?
[19:34:44] <mrsun> hydraulic press? :P
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[19:39:21] <tjb1> Hey Jymmm, im about a week from starting :)
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[20:02:30] <jp_> just made my first extruder hotend and it works!!!!
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[20:03:31] <Tom_itx> Jymmm it's called a jack hammer
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[20:11:11] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Nope, that would cause multiple impacts
[20:11:21] <Jymmm> mrsun: Man-u-al =)
[20:11:54] <Jymmm> mrsun: just automatic manual =)
[20:12:38] <syyl_ws_> automatic hand punch?
[20:12:45] <syyl_ws_> you mean those automatic centre punches?
[20:12:59] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: yeah, just industrial impact version
[20:13:03] <syyl_ws_> mh
[20:13:08] <syyl_ws_> try a crossbow ;)
[20:13:17] <syyl_ws_> na, i dont think there is something like that
[20:13:17] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: impact, not force =)
[20:13:35] <syyl_ws_> what do you want to do?
[20:13:38] <Jymmm> there is, but too fscking expensive
[20:13:49] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: steel stamp
[20:14:06] <syyl_ws_> why not use a press with depth stop?
[20:14:16] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: impact, not force
[20:14:46] <syyl_ws_> steel is stamped all around the world with force ;)
[20:14:50] <syyl_ws_> use the force, luke!
[20:14:59] <Jymmm> have you ever used a hand stamp with a hammer before?
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[20:15:24] <syyl_ws_> a letter/number stamp?
[20:15:26] <syyl_ws_> of course
[20:15:28] <Jymmm> yes
[20:15:34] <syyl_ws_> and it can be done with a press too
[20:15:36] <syyl_ws_> no problem
[20:15:40] <syyl_ws_> want a video? ;)
[20:15:44] <Jymmm> sure
[20:16:18] <syyl_ws_> do i realy need to take out one of my presses now? ;)
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[20:16:46] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: sure, use expllosives for best effect
[20:17:03] <syyl_ws_> i just cant see the problem
[20:17:13] <syyl_ws_> with a press its even very repeatable
[20:17:25] <skunkworks_> didn't they use explosives in old forming presses?
[20:17:30] <skunkworks_> :)
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[20:18:07] <syyl_ws_> there is still a process called explosive forming :D
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[20:18:18] <syyl_ws_> every shop should have explosives..
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[20:18:58] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: Sure, in SOFT material... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZbs001XZ8g
[20:19:05] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/160220-emc2_gecko_g540_red_led.html
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[20:19:29] <skunkworks_> I must have setup skunworks and don't remember... THen one day randomly I logged in as skunkworks and didn't even notice
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[20:19:42] <syyl_ws_> mild steel works, Jymmm
[20:19:54] <syyl_ws_> at least with my small press
[20:20:06] <syyl_ws_> never tried toolsteel
[20:21:28] <Jymmm> syyl_ws_: This is what I'm talking about, the 1/2ton starts at $1400 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=T5g1XV2Sx6s
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[20:23:20] <Jymmm> 3 ton $2000
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[20:25:04] <syyl_ws_> haha, that even sounds like a automatic centre punch
[20:25:15] <syyl_ws_> but i am sure the same can be achieved with such a press
[20:25:15] <syyl_ws_> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/pub/2011-04-12_18-45-56_958.jpg
[20:25:19] <Jymmm> it's a glorified automatic hand punch in a drill press holder
[20:25:21] <JT-Shop> same but different I'd bet
[20:26:56] <Jymmm> 6 ton $5300
[20:27:57] <Jymmm> http://www.infinitystamps.com/images/ecom/presses/hirez/pryor_press_a1.jpg
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[20:35:25] <Jymmm> They call them "Manual Impact Presses"
[20:37:03] <syyl_ws_> time to close the shop for tonight
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[20:39:44] <Tom_itx> Jymmm use a hilti gun
[20:39:53] <Tom_itx> single shot
[20:39:59] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Does it take .22LR ?
[20:40:08] <Tom_itx> some do
[20:40:12] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: syyl_ Tom_itx http://i48.tinypic.com/25zj7gl.jpg
[20:40:13] <Tom_itx> some are a bit bigger i think
[20:40:27] <skunkworks_> pcw_home, http://www.cnczone.com/forums/servo_motors_drives/159994-servo_advice_needed.html
[20:40:34] <Tom_itx> mine is a .22
[20:40:45] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Heh, I just found out that pelets guns are illegal due to the NOISE they create.
[20:40:58] <Jymmm> no noise, then legal.
[20:40:58] <Tom_itx> pfft
[20:41:10] <Tom_itx> cover their head with a pillow first
[20:41:19] <Jymmm> lol
[20:41:39] <Jymmm> well, there's an exploded view of one
[20:41:48] <Tom_itx> arbor press
[20:42:03] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: impact, not force
[20:42:18] <Tom_itx> oh
[20:42:31] <Tom_itx> i've never used one of those
[20:42:37] <Tom_itx> i'd rather smack it with a big hammer
[20:42:39] <Jymmm> see the video?
[20:42:42] <Tom_itx> nope
[20:42:48] <Jymmm> scroll up
[20:43:31] <Jymmm> 1/2 ton veriosn is $1400. 3 ton $2000, 6 ton $5000
[20:43:32] <Tom_itx> there was a hammer press where i worked once
[20:43:39] <Tom_itx> huge flywheel
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[20:44:01] <Tom_itx> probably upwards of 50 ton
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[20:44:35] <Tom_itx> that thing works the same as my little centerpunch
[20:44:42] <Jymmm> yep
[20:44:49] <Tom_itx> are you gonna stamp parts out with it?
[20:44:51] <Tom_itx> ss
[20:44:52] <Tom_itx> ?
[20:44:59] <Jymmm> thats why I can't see paying $2000
[20:45:01] <Jymmm> yes
[20:45:05] <Tom_itx> make one
[20:45:06] <Jymmm> stamping ss
[20:45:10] <Jymmm> DUH!
[20:45:17] <Tom_itx> jt will fix u right up
[20:45:31] <Tom_itx> i told you to make a die
[20:45:31] <Jymmm> I bet he will
[20:45:59] <Tom_itx> get some valve springs from a semi
[20:46:05] <Tom_itx> and make one
[20:46:05] <Jymmm> die is for cutting, not marking
[20:46:43] <Jymmm> this impact press is for marking purposes, not cutting
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[20:47:57] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: thats what I was thinking
[20:48:30] <Jymmm> funny thing that exploded diagram is far more complicated than my automatic centerpunch too
[20:49:01] <Tom_itx> just use a hydraulic cylinder for what you want
[20:49:49] <Jymmm> No, what I want is one of those I can chuck up in my drill press.
[20:50:07] <Tom_itx> beat the thrust bearing to hell
[20:50:26] <Jymmm> eh, I think it was out of the box
[20:50:31] <Jymmm> craftsman
[20:50:41] <Jymmm> (ryoby)
[20:51:15] <Jymmm> or find a dead one off craigslist
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[21:10:29] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[21:38:09] <r00t4rd3d> anyone shoot bow/arrow like indian?
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[21:38:25] <r00t4rd3d> brush burn i guess they call it
[21:38:41] <r00t4rd3d> FUCK
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[21:39:56] <r00t4rd3d> my forearm swelled up the size of a baseball in 30 seconds
[21:40:24] <r00t4rd3d> i thought i was gonna die
[21:40:37] <r00t4rd3d> assholes were laughing.
[21:40:51] * archivist giggles
[21:42:09] <r00t4rd3d> you shoot that shit?
[21:43:11] <r00t4rd3d> my buddies release was too big for me, couldnt reach the trigger so I was doing it indian style and slipped.
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[21:45:56] <r00t4rd3d> like my 5th shot, rolled off my finger and dropped me to my knees.
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[21:46:20] <r00t4rd3d> HAHAHHAHAHAHHA
[21:46:29] <r00t4rd3d> they were lucky i couldnt shoot that mother fucker again
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[21:56:10] <FinboySlick> To europeans in here: What's that god-aweful stew that everybody in scotland thinks is good?
[21:56:36] <FinboySlick> I think it's boiled guts or something like that.
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[22:02:32] <Tom_itx> you gonna make some?
[22:03:00] <Jymmm> hagis
[22:04:04] <Jymmm> FinboySlick: It's a savory pudding =) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haggis
[22:05:43] <Tom_itx> that looks worse than McDonalds
[22:06:25] <Jymmm> Uk has some funky ass definitions of "pudding"
[22:07:24] <Jymmm> not just haggis either, rice, christmas, yorkshire, etc
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[23:19:23] <tom3p> Jymmm, consider WEDM for cutting stacked SS We used to make little packets with top and bottom clamping plates, and pop a hole thru the whole deal for the wire start hole.
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[23:31:49] <MattyMatt> Jymm, what we call pudding, US calls food :) it's anything with added sugar
[23:32:22] <MattyMatt> except steak & kidney pudding. no sugar in that afaik
[23:32:46] <MattyMatt> that's a boiled pie
[23:34:45] <MattyMatt> and pudding is generic for dessert
[23:35:02] <MattyMatt> aka afters
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[23:37:50] <MattyMatt> stodge & custard. it sticks to your ribs
[23:38:38] <MattyMatt> unfortunately also your coronary arteries
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[23:51:32] <syyl_> hmm
[23:51:45] <syyl_> haggis looks a bit like a two week old roadkill...
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