#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-07-09

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[00:06:19] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, 9
[00:07:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: how much of it is land (vs sea/water) ?
[00:08:40] <JT-Shop> depends on the season
[00:08:57] <Jymmm> lets say wet season
[00:09:50] <Tom_itx> 9 swamp acres
[00:10:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: But either way, I think you could seriously benefit from geo thermal. You or you know someone that can drill you a well or two can dig ya a deep hole and lay in some tubing
[00:11:06] <Tom_itx> just don't drill on a fault line
[00:11:58] <Jymmm> I doubt there is anything you could do to a fualt line that would make any impact.
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[00:12:21] <Tom_itx> there has been talk about that in places i believe
[00:12:32] <Tom_itx> err maybe it was oil drilling
[00:12:49] <Jymmm> Besides, I dont think swampsouri close to the circle of fire =)
[00:13:01] <Jymmm> mayeb oil drilling I could see.
[00:13:03] <Tom_itx> no but it is on a major fault
[00:13:13] <Tom_itx> Mo is
[00:13:14] <Jymmm> which one?
[00:13:21] <Tom_itx> i'm not sure
[00:13:48] <Tom_itx> there was a 5.xx here recently i believe
[00:13:52] <Tom_itx> maybe 4.xx
[00:14:00] <Tom_itx> near OKC
[00:14:14] <Tom_itx> we felt it here
[00:14:24] <Tom_itx> 2.5 hrs N
[00:14:28] <Jymmm> Oh, the SE corner of MO is
[00:14:43] <Jymmm> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/22/us-fault-lines-graphic-ea_n_432948.html
[00:15:19] <Tom_itx> isn't he in Swampeast Mo?
[00:15:37] <andypugh> There is some concern that "fracking" might have caused an earthquake, and at least one borehole has been blamed for a rahter destructibe muf volcano.
[00:15:46] <andypugh> (mud volcano)
[00:16:07] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: What is your lat/lon to the 48th significant digit =)
[00:16:49] <andypugh> http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/02/mudvolcano/
[00:17:38] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, 63901
[00:18:06] <andypugh> If you want the 48th significant digit you will need to specify which electron in which atom in which cell of his body you want the location of. But it will only be accurate briefly.
[00:18:37] <Jymmm> Heh, JT-Shop is in shake rattle and roll country =)
[00:19:12] <Jymmm> andypugh: I only requested lat/lon, not azimuth =)
[00:19:26] <Jymmm> nor elevation
[00:19:49] <andypugh> Good point. You need to be more specific about your choice of geoid.
[00:20:03] <Jymmm> Maidenhead
[00:20:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maidenhead_Locator_System
[00:21:30] <Jymmm> We should ALL use it for everything, mail, directions, shipping, surveying, etc
[00:23:29] <andypugh> I am not sure I really want to locate Maidenhead.
[00:24:09] <andypugh> Except that it is amusingly an archaic name for the Hymen.
[00:26:05] <Jymmm> What, you don't want your 72 virgins?
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[00:26:21] <Jymmm> They never said the virgins had to all be femae either =)
[00:26:27] <Jymmm> female
[00:28:44] <Jbunch> Thanks all we now have RPM. Off to closed loop spindle control.
[00:32:03] <Jymmm> andypugh: http://no.nonsense.ee/qthmap/?qth=CM87ST98GN&from=CM87ST98EO
[00:32:31] <andypugh> Jbunch: The wiki page is a bit confused. The most effective way to tune the PID for closed-loop control is to use the right amount of FF1 (the number should be exactly the same as you would use for open-loop speed control)
[00:32:57] <Jymmm> andypugh: Any place on earth in 10 characters... CM87ST98EO
[00:33:55] <Jymmm> You could easily QR/barcode that if you wanted to
[00:35:14] <andypugh> I appear to be JO01GN09OP
[00:35:20] <jdh> down to 89F outside, 73F in the garage.
[00:36:02] <Jymmm> andypugh: http://www.levinecentral.com/ham/grid_square.php
[00:36:18] <Jymmm> andypugh: most just apx to 6 chars
[00:37:45] <andypugh> About 50 miles from IO91PM
[00:38:05] <Jymmm> andypugh: do you live where there is a slight bend in the road?
[00:39:41] <Jymmm> andypugh: Is this you? http://i46.tinypic.com/dvsq60.jpg
[00:40:02] <andypugh> No, I live at the end of the road. Though Google Maps is rather unclear on that point.
[00:40:12] <Jymmm> ah
[00:40:35] <andypugh> But yes, my garden is the one in the middle fo that red square
[00:41:03] <Jymmm> I think the red outline is the scale at which 10 chars of maidenhead grid goes to. Imagine 12 or 16 chars?!
[00:41:32] <Jymmm> each pair is a factor of 10
[00:42:33] <Jymmm> err 100 that is
[00:42:33] <andypugh> You have to be carful with your geoids at that point. Actually, you have to be careful at the 6 digit level.
[00:42:47] <Jymmm> heh, whys that?
[00:43:33] <andypugh> Actually, I might mean the reference elipsoid
[00:44:02] <Jymmm> Great Circle stuff?
[00:44:49] <Jbunch> andypugh: how do you force output to only + voltages?
[00:44:55] <Jymmm> It does it as a flat earth, so eh. I still like it =)
[00:45:13] <andypugh> The Lat and Long are referenced to the centre of the earth, they keep changing their mind about where that is. Also, they keep improving the accuracy of the meathematical not-quite-a-sphere that maps are projected on to.
[00:46:28] <Jymmm> andypugh: I think it does a good job now, I really dont need to track molecules on earth
[00:47:08] <andypugh> This change was partly responsible for: http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Travel%20and%20transport/R%20Grounding%20of%20Clipper%20CV4%20aka%20Cork%2020100124%20RH.pdf
[00:51:18] <andypugh> Basically as they zoomed in on the chart plotter they switched from charts to WGS84 (where GPS positions can be directly plotted) to a different reference. Which put a rather solid island about 2 miles from where the GPS said it was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGS84
[00:52:16] <andypugh> (In point of fact the reef was probably initially located by a man with a sextant, so a 2 mile error is pretty good)
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[00:56:56] <andypugh> Jbunch: Ah, just noticed that question.
[00:58:24] <andypugh> You might be able to use an "abs" component in HAL, but that can cause problems.
[00:59:12] <andypugh> (if the PID reduces below zero, then the spindle speeds up, and so the PID reduces lower, which becomes a bigger absolute number, and so on to spindle runaway.
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[01:00:26] <andypugh> A better thing to use is a "limit1" block between the output of the PID and the PWM generator: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/limit1.9.html
[01:01:32] <Jbunch> Thanks I will give it a try.
[01:01:45] <andypugh> I am rather of the opinion that this function should be built-in to the PID component
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[01:03:44] <andypugh> Maybe PID needs a "unipolar" bit,
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[01:03:53] <andypugh> Anyway, time to sleep.
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[01:07:38] <Jbunch> Thanks
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[02:03:25] <r00t4rd3d> sleep is for wussies
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[02:12:05] <taiden> evening gents
[02:12:37] <taiden> i'm trying to set g92 offset from machine coordinates. any way to do that?
[02:13:08] <taiden> only way I can figure is to move to a location with g53 and then set that as zero with g92 but i want to avoid crashes by doing it without movement
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[03:17:44] <r00t4rd3d> My MDF has met its end:
[03:17:44] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/JU45y.jpg
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[03:18:33] <r00t4rd3d> oak :)
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[05:57:42] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[06:03:52] <Jymmm> ug
[06:08:45] <tjb1> Its really early :)
[06:10:15] <tjb1> Hello Jymmm, I come with off-topic useless information :)
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[06:57:33] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:26:11] <DJ9DJ> morning
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[09:06:10] <Loetmichel> hmm, anyone need some kapton tube? od 1,25mm, id 1mm... have about 100m over here in roughly 1m parts (was isolation on copper wire for transformers, needed the wire. so the isolation is spare... -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13415
[09:07:23] <Valen> hmmm
[09:08:14] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Sure, is that 100m contonous or in pieces?
[09:08:50] <Loetmichel> 1m pieces, longer is nearly impossibel to get off the wire in one part ;-)
[09:09:01] <Loetmichel> impossible
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[09:09:20] <Valen> Loetmichel where are you located?
[09:09:32] <Jymmm> USA
[09:09:33] <Loetmichel> germany ;-)
[09:09:39] <Valen> ahh
[09:09:56] <Jymmm> is it flexible?
[09:10:12] <Loetmichel> its kapton
[09:10:23] <Loetmichel> si its relatively rigid, but flexible, yes
[09:10:27] <Loetmichel> so
[09:10:30] <Jymmm> If so, could spool it on a card and put in an envelope
[09:10:47] <Loetmichel> not a good idea
[09:10:53] <Jymmm> ah
[09:11:04] <Loetmichel> wil break at the 180° corners
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[09:11:14] <Jymmm> oooops
[09:11:21] <Loetmichel> but io can make som flat spools out of cardboard to roll them up
[09:12:30] <Jymmm> 1m pieces is a taf too short for wht I had in mind, but thank you for the offer
[09:12:35] <Jymmm> tad
[09:13:07] <Loetmichel> i just found it curious that i could draw the isolation from the "enamel wire" so i tested it: dosent melt even with the soldering iron at 450°c... and if torched it wil just s go coal, but not burn
[09:13:38] <Loetmichel> and has the typical "overheated kapton " sink ;-)
[09:13:41] <Loetmichel> stink
[09:13:55] <Valen> might be a bit of a bother sending me one piece before the robot wars competition ;->
[09:13:55] <Valen> thaught this was a different #
[09:14:11] <Loetmichel> i CAN try to draw 2 meter pieces if that would help you
[09:14:32] <Jymmm> No, more like 8m =)
[09:14:52] <Loetmichel> Valen: tell me your adress i wioll put some in an envelope.
[09:15:08] <Jymmm> It's ok, I found another solution I think will work.
[09:15:08] <Loetmichel> like i said, i nieeded the coppwer wire, so the "tuibe " is scrap ;-)
[09:15:23] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: ebay it! lol
[09:15:38] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: 8 meters is SURE impossible to draw from the wire in one part ;-)
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[09:19:33] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Bah, you're just not trying hard enough! lol
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[09:42:35] <gene_> sumpfralle: after pycam labored about 16 hours trying to do the logo, it popped up an error exit, "faled to generate toolpath, the engraving toolpath strategy needs a 2d contour model from a dxf or svg file :(
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[13:06:01] <JT-Shop> morning guys
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[13:06:38] <jdh> Happy Monday!
[13:06:55] <Valen> for 54 minutes more
[13:06:58] <archivist> must be another rest day its 2pm!
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[13:11:18] <JT-Shop> you guys get up too early lol
[13:11:52] <skunkworks> logger[psha]
[13:11:57] <jdh> you are just central time?
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[13:12:57] <skunkworks> I am...
[13:13:28] <jdh> where are you?
[13:14:02] <skunkworks> WI
[13:17:10] <jdh> mo is about 20hours west driving. Seems like it should be more than the next time zone.
[13:17:25] <skunkworks> heh
[13:17:46] <Valen> it'd take a while to drive to here from there
[13:18:18] <archivist> with added flotation bags
[13:23:59] <skunkworks> the time changes in MI
[13:25:59] <jdh> every second.
[13:26:18] <skunkworks> that is too much for a monday morning... ;)
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[14:00:21] <Valen> well its tuesday now so ner
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[15:07:16] <Jymmm> Man, I wish they made a larger version... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBycbrexu5g&feature=related
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[15:23:33] <ScribbleJ> What kind of shitty First Aid Kit doesn't even include a jar of leeches and a bonesaw?
[15:23:52] <jdh> what's the point, don't you carry those in your pocket?
[15:23:58] <syyl> doesnt your leatherman have a bonesaw?
[15:23:59] <taiden> mine came with a red hot cast iron pan
[15:24:10] <taiden> apparently i purchased the right one
[15:24:14] <Jymmm> Those are in the ice chest attached to your back
[15:26:01] <Jymmm> I just wish it was 8x10x5 instead of 6x8x3.5
[15:26:14] <jdh> that woudl be a big ice chest.
[15:26:24] <Jymmm> and a 4 section wouldn't hurt either
[15:27:00] <Jymmm> jdh: and some big ass leeches too!
[15:27:15] <jdh> I'm surrounded by leeches.
[15:27:36] <taiden> its not nice to talk about your children like that
[15:27:44] <Jymmm> jdh: WD-40 + lighter will fend them off
[15:27:47] <jdh> they can't hear me.
[15:29:58] <Jymmm> My FAK right now is 3x 7x14" (tri-fold), so a little wide, bit holds everything fairly well, just kinda kludgy to store/carry.
[15:30:22] <Jymmm> s/bit/but/
[15:45:33] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[15:45:36] <roycroft> so is a 15k rpm spindle sufficient for pcb milling?
[15:47:53] <ScribbleJ> A 15k RPM with a 1 flute bit is equivalent to a 7.5k with a 2 flute bit, no? It's all good, man.
[15:49:49] <roycroft> i've read on some of the mailing lists that discuss pcb milling that 20k rpm is the minimum spindle speed that works
[15:49:57] <roycroft> and that 40k rpm is better
[15:50:33] <roycroft> also, that normal feed and speed calcs don't apply, because copper is soft and gummy
[15:51:36] <roycroft> my greater concern is with spindle runout, of course
[15:51:58] <roycroft> and i'm trying to deterime what that would be with the spindle i'm considering
[15:52:39] <roycroft> oh, excellent
[15:52:42] <roycroft> 0.0001" tir
[15:52:49] * roycroft can live with that
[15:53:19] <ScribbleJ> MY spindle is pretty solid but I doubt my machine is that constrained itself.
[15:54:45] <roycroft> currently my z axis is not that tight, but i'm working on that
[15:55:10] * roycroft will be doing some scraping later this summer
[16:10:57] <anonimas1> roycroft: pretty much here's how it works, the smaller the bit smaller cutting edges
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[16:11:35] <anonimas1> and more fragile.
[16:12:15] <roycroft> right
[16:12:32] <roycroft> which is why runout is more important than speed
[16:12:48] <roycroft> i may be able to get 30k rpm, btw, for not much more money
[16:12:56] <anonimas1> tho, the speed of the small tools is critical also
[16:13:04] <roycroft> of course
[16:13:05] <anonimas1> but you need both to use them efficiently
[16:13:12] <roycroft> i'm not saying that it's unimportant
[16:13:13] <anonimas1> with sane tool life.
[16:13:42] <roycroft> just that a suboptimal speed with very little runout has a better chance of success than a "proper" speed and excessive runout
[16:13:46] <anonimas1> i mill with 2mm cutters sometimes, and getting new spindle bearings/better tool holders would probably give me 2-3 times the tool life
[16:14:46] <roycroft> there's a speed-doubling handpiece for my foredom tool that will let me run at up to 30k rpm
[16:15:12] <roycroft> i'm not sure if it has the same runout tolerance as the regular collet handpiece
[16:15:58] <anonimas1> anyway it'll work on slower speed without a problem, just not as fast :p
[16:16:41] <roycroft> since 1. this will be just for prototyping, and 2. the machine will be under cnc, that's not much of an issue
[16:16:54] <roycroft> so it takes 3 hours to mill a board instead of 2
[16:17:12] <roycroft> i should not have to monitor the entire time
[16:17:22] <roycroft> i can set up, get it going, and walk away
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[16:19:28] <anonimas1> i find that hard, even though i have proper cnc's at work..
[16:19:29] <anonimas1> :)
[16:19:40] <anonimas1> usually i end up checking and re-checking and clearing the chips away
[16:20:13] <roycroft> i guess i'll find out
[16:20:25] <roycroft> even so, i don't anticipate making too many pcbs
[16:21:02] <roycroft> and frankly, if it turns out to be a pain to mill a pcb, that would motivate me to design the board correctly the first time
[16:22:06] <roycroft> when i learned to program in fortran, i was on an ibm 360
[16:22:13] <roycroft> the procedure was this:
[16:22:18] <roycroft> i would fill out coding sheets
[16:22:30] <roycroft> they would be submitted to the keypunch operators, who would punch my card deck within a day
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[16:23:00] <roycroft> the job would be scheduled that day or the following one, and i would get a printout of the run the day after
[16:23:19] <roycroft> i learned how to code most things correctly the first time when i had to deal with that
[16:23:29] <jdh> I had to punch my own cards
[16:23:30] <cradek> you had keypunch operators!? LUXURY!
[16:23:58] <roycroft> when i started using glass teletypes and interactive systems, i found myself not being quite so motivated to get everything correct the first time
[16:24:04] <roycroft> i'd rather have punched my own decks
[16:24:14] <roycroft> but that was not the protocol
[16:24:30] <cradek> I've recently started using a typewriter for some stuff again - that also encourages getting it right the first time
[16:25:13] <jdh> retro-luddite?
[16:25:23] <roycroft> a true luddite would shun white-out
[16:25:28] <cradek> no, pragmatist
[16:25:49] <cradek> typewriters are good at many things computers totally suck at, and we've all just gotten used to going without, because of that
[16:26:08] <jdh> they just seem like they are.
[16:26:41] <jdh> if you need a typewriter to do something, whatever it is you are doing is probably wrong or pointless
[16:26:47] <cradek> haha
[16:27:12] <roycroft> as long as daisy-wheel printers are still available
[16:27:19] <cradek> and the same can be said for the bicycle?
[16:27:38] <roycroft> what?
[16:27:40] <jdh> nope, bicycles serve many uses
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[16:27:50] <roycroft> bicycles are infinitely more appropriate than typewriters
[16:27:52] <jdh> typewriters put type on paper.
[16:28:36] <cradek> yes, right where you want it, and immediately, and on any size or shape of paper or other paper-like thing, perhaps an envelope
[16:28:51] <jdh> right. pointless.
[16:28:57] <cradek> haha
[16:29:22] <roycroft> typewriters also work well when there is no electricity
[16:29:29] <jdh> a pen does all that, and has less setup time.
[16:29:32] <cradek> yeah, I guess paper is obsolete too, since everyone has ipads
[16:29:48] * roycroft has an ipad, and also stocks legal pads
[16:29:48] <cradek> if you're using a pen, whatever you are doing is probably pointless or wrong
[16:30:06] <jdh> I don't disagree.
[16:30:24] <roycroft> but soon i'll be able to put slate tablets on my mill and engrave my musings under cnc control
[16:31:06] <cradek> heck all of written language is obsolete now that we have talking heads on the teevee and youtube
[16:31:37] <jdh> halfway through my son's 3rd grade, they quit teaching cursive.
[16:31:51] <cradek> (god I hate when I see an interesting headline on google news and when I get there all I see is a headline and some damn video)
[16:32:11] <jdh> yeah, they need an option to hide all video links. Same for news sites.
[16:32:28] <cradek> video is good for porn but sucks for news
[16:32:34] <Jymmm> punch cards?! IBM 360?! Typewriters?! daisy wheel?! WTH did I walk into, the geriatric ward????
[16:32:40] <cradek> people are using the internet wrong!
[16:32:56] <cradek> (a variant of "someone is wrong on the internet")
[16:33:36] <cradek> Jymmm: eh you're about as old as the rest of us, just turn off your hearing aid if you don't care what we're talking about
[16:33:38] <Valen> if your going old school http://www.psfk.com/2012/03/twitter-ticker-tape-machine.html
[16:34:14] <jdh> typewriters are good for filling out forms. But filling out pre-printed hardcopy forms is silly.
[16:34:28] <JT-Shop> or take your glasses off if you don't want to read it
[16:34:28] <Valen> pdf forms ftw!
[16:34:30] * Jymmm bashes cradek with his walker then yells IVE FALLEN AND I CANT GET UP!
[16:34:38] <Valen> actually html forms but still
[16:34:54] * Valen lets down the tyres on Jymmms walker
[16:35:05] <cradek> DID YOU EVER TRY TO LOAD CARBON PAPER INTO A LASER PRINTER HOW ABOUT THAT HUH
[16:35:33] <Jymmm> cradek: No, I hit copies = 2 instead!
[16:35:38] * JT-Shop wanders off to fix a half of a home made herb bread sandwich
[16:35:45] * Valen goes to bed
[16:35:48] <Valen> its 2:30 here
[16:35:53] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: herbage huh?
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[16:36:08] <Jymmm> That aint oregano
[16:38:33] <archivist> youtube++ 5 years and 567,563 views and I finally get a sensible enquiry for a gear
[16:38:56] <jdh> carbon paper. uh huh.
[16:39:14] <Jymmm> archivist: Hopefully the inquiry was for 1000 units =)
[16:39:43] <archivist> nah....2
[16:39:50] <Jymmm> jdh: Isn't that a bbq briquet rubbed on a piece of paper?
[16:41:09] <jdh> I should find some at an antique store and show it to my kids.
[16:41:28] <Jymmm> archivist: So that would be 1 unit per 250,000 views? I think you may wish to rethink your marketing =)
[16:42:13] <JT-Shop> Jymmm, I don't know what the Mennonites put in the herb bread but it is good and fresh
[16:42:13] <archivist> I am so not a salesman
[16:45:44] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: =)
[16:46:21] <Jymmm> archivist: ah, it's all good. If you really cared about selling you would have done some serious promotion =)
[16:46:58] <Jymmm> QUCK what is 18W into F? lol
[16:46:59] <roycroft> hire someone to do your marketing
[16:47:13] * roycroft finds marketing necessary, but distasteful
[16:47:27] <Jymmm> ok, we agree on that one
[16:47:52] <Jymmm> Well, I don't have aproblem with marketing, it's the methods typically used that I dont care for.
[16:49:10] * JT-Shop yawns
[16:50:26] <archivist> paying money to a marketing type feels dirty, not sure I can bring myself to do that
[16:51:20] <Jymmm> archivist: Are you WANTING to sell on a regular basis if given the opportunity, or as a casual thing?
[16:51:25] <roycroft> you would have to find the right marketroid
[16:52:03] <archivist> I do need to sell
[16:54:21] <Jymmm> archivist: If you haven't already, toss up a simple shopping cart with paypal, nice photos (with links watermarked on them), maybe create a PDF that someone can download/print
[16:55:02] <archivist> shopping cart for one offs!
[16:55:19] <Jymmm> archivist: Many times when I'm looking for something, I'll hit google images instead. Thats the purpose of the link being watermarked
[16:55:31] <Jymmm> archivist: There is a simpl y html button generator on paypal
[16:57:17] <archivist> variety http://gears.archivist.info/gears/index.html , could be prettier
[16:58:02] <Jymmm> archivist: it's still loading,
[16:58:18] <roycroft> yes, that's the main problem
[16:58:22] <roycroft> it takes way too long to load
[16:58:30] <archivist> hosted here,
[16:58:36] <roycroft> if a page does not fully load in 30 seconds the user will go elsewhere
[16:58:43] <roycroft> so redesign it without the huge images
[16:58:55] <roycroft> thumbnails that link to the full-size images would be a good start
[16:59:12] <Jymmm> archivist: it's still loading,...
[16:59:29] <Jymmm> archivist: and... done
[17:00:11] <Jymmm> archivist: 90 seconds to laod that page due to the hi-res images instead of thumbnails
[17:00:39] <Jymmm> archivist: might consider a photo gallery thingy
[17:01:12] <archivist> only 4 images are scaled incorrectly the rest are ok on pagespeed
[17:01:39] <roycroft> even converting the existing images to progressive jpegs would help - the viewer would have the percepetion of fast loading
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[17:04:10] <archivist> didnt help that you lot were all loading at the same time
[17:04:38] <jdh> they look cool
[17:09:51] <Jymmm> archivist: If you login to PP, you can create a simple HTML "BUY NOW" or "ADD TO CART" button that does NTOrequire you to have scripts or SSL running on your system https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_web-tools
[17:10:31] <archivist> my gears are one offs there is no buy it now
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[17:22:54] <Jymmm> archivist: In your photos... 1) I would get/use a matte black backdrop to contrast the item better, and 2) Place a rule in the photo as well as maybe a commonly known object (dice, playing card, matchstick, pencil, etc) so it gives scale perspective, 3) watermark the photo with a url, they will then show up in google images, pinterest, etc.
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[17:24:01] <archivist> https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&q=cnc%20fly%20cutting%20verge%20escape%20wheel&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1269&bih=724&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=0A37T73KNcmW8gOsvuWDBw
[17:24:13] <archivist> they are already in google
[17:24:31] <Jymmm> and pinterest?
[17:24:58] <archivist> who the f uses pinterest anyway
[17:25:28] <Jymmm> It's VERY popular actually. Not like FB crap.
[17:25:32] <archivist> I dont see much interest in it except for a few niche areas
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[17:26:00] <jdh> I get 2 or 3 phishing pinterest emails a day
[17:26:36] <Jymmm> archivist: it's MASS publication, if just one person pins one of your photos it can muliply quickly
[17:26:48] <archivist> I have never had one, I get plenty from fb etc
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[17:27:27] <jdh> I have no pin* accounts, just get emails saying they are from there
[17:28:13] <archivist> one for r00t4rd3d http://claytonboyer.blogspot.co.uk/2011_05_01_archive.html
[17:28:29] <archivist> wooden clock
[17:28:31] <Jymmm> archivist: It's up to you to do as you please, I'm just giving you suggestions.
[17:28:55] <archivist> I know :)
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[17:33:11] <archivist> this also would say it is not a good match http://www.inc.com/john-brandon/9-tips-boost-your-business-pinterest.html
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[18:01:56] <archivist> the gear centering problem one needs the center of the cutter to be 0 http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2012/2012_03_31/IMG_1205.JPG
[18:03:04] <cradek> archivist: thanks for all your work on updating the wiki
[18:03:54] <archivist> cradek, I have a "list" nearly ready for the main site
[18:04:31] <archivist> there being a bukket of 404s
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[18:05:54] <cradek> yuck
[18:06:16] <archivist> done some of the wiki http://www.archivist.info/apt/aptos/apt360/orig_source/apt/php/linuxcnc.php
[18:07:21] <archivist> method is fire a spider at linuxcnc.org and hack the spiders tables to get info
[18:08:42] <cradek> that looks like it represents a lot of work
[18:08:58] <archivist> some will require site fixes , this link http://www.linuxcnc.org/0 is a coding or setup error
[18:10:01] <archivist> view the page source for http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=showcat&catid=10
[18:10:53] <cradek> what am I looking for in the source?
[18:11:01] <cradek> (this sure isn't my forte)
[18:11:50] <archivist> it is not clickable <a href="/0">
[18:12:35] <archivist> I mean <a href="/0"></a> there is nothing between the ><
[18:13:17] <archivist> spiders will be finding that and getting a spurious bad link
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[18:14:09] <cradek> oh I see what you mean, I agree that's otherworldly
[18:16:31] <archivist> the links pages could do with an overhaul, why are they redirects , we found an oddity which is probably just a dead link but the user cannot see the old url
[18:17:42] <tjb1> That is awesome…credits have increased $26, housing has increased $164 for the same room and the meal plan has increased $147 for the same exact thing
[18:17:59] <archivist> so this page http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/weblinks/12-realtime
[18:18:40] <Jymmm> Not sure I'd actually buy one, but a slick idea... http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/CAMP-205
[18:19:04] <archivist> has a link to http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/weblinks/12-realtime/2-rtlinux which redirects to http://www.fsmlabs.com/
[18:20:44] <archivist> cradek, I built a list of redirects http://www.archivist.info/apt/aptos/apt360/orig_source/apt/php/linuxcnc_redirect_test.php
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[18:26:38] <IchGuckLive> Hi all
[18:26:51] <IchGuckLive> andy you helix did it
[18:27:24] <IchGuckLive> someone has ever tryed 123D from autodesk
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[18:32:25] <anonimas1> I like my lathe +0.001 on length over 80 acetal parts..
[18:33:06] <anonimas1> better then my micrometer repeats..
[18:34:32] <anonimas1> it's at the limit of the feedback system on it
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[18:57:54] <ctjctj> why would the trajectory max acceleration be 1.0e+99? This does not make sense to me.
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[19:14:49] <_abc_> Is there a linuxcnc live version which works on debian/knoppix live cd/dvd basis?
[19:15:04] <jdh> I'd almost guarantee 'no'
[19:15:36] <ctjctj> _abc_: that would be a "roll your own" option.
[19:17:24] <_abc_> Hey Ubuntu is for human beings, I cut my teeth on linux with slackware in the 1990s.
[19:17:36] * _abc_ supresses the thought ubuntu is for pussies
[19:17:44] <andypugh> Jymmm: Have you seen "Damascus mosaic"? http://www.connyknives.com/knifegallery.htm
[19:18:20] <ctjctj> andypugh: do you happen to know the answer to my above question regarding maxAcceleration?
[19:18:59] <andypugh> I guess that basically means "no limit"
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[19:19:44] <Jymmm> andypugh: very nice, I like some of the scrollwork, but I dont dare want to know the pricing =)
[19:19:45] <ctjctj> Yeah, that was my guess. Formats badly for %f though. *grin*
[19:21:16] <andypugh> They make the steel rather like Blackpool Rock (not that I guess you have that over there)
[19:23:42] <Jymmm> andypugh: Nah, I'm just getting more into carbon blades now.
[19:26:40] <andypugh> If you want ral sharpness, that is probably the way to go.
[19:28:49] <Jymmm> Yeah, it's just the hand sharpening that gets in the way =)
[19:29:58] <ctjctj> Real Damascus blades sharpen very nicely and hold that edge. I love my Damascus blade. Unfortunately there are a lot of fake (made from steel cable) "Damascus" out there.
[19:30:56] <andypugh> According to Wikipedia no-one actually knows how Damascus blades were made.
[19:31:30] <andypugh> But the mosaic damascus blades are clearly more about art than tools. Which is fine by me, they look lovely.
[19:31:46] <andypugh> Jist Google "damascus mosaic"
[19:32:46] <ctjctj> True. The term is normally applied to "Folded steel" blades. Where you take a low carbon steel heat it to welding temps, fold and weld to self. Some sprinkle a little carbon on the blade just before the weld. Others start by welding low carbon to high carbon first then starting the folding.
[19:33:19] <ctjctj> My brother has attempted a few of these. His best success has been around 5-7 folds before it went "wrong"
[19:34:08] <ctjctj> (His business card reads "General Surgeon, General Blacksmithing" and he does a good job of both.
[19:34:15] <jdh> so, drowning is common sense?
[19:34:20] <jdh> <urk>
[19:35:17] <Jymmm> jdh: where did "common sense" come into this?
[19:36:02] <jdh> it didn't. My position was that common sense does not exist
[19:36:32] <andypugh> This is how it's done: http://youtu.be/v7vIK_HihyU
[19:36:52] <Jymmm> jdh: It musta went where all the greater than B-Cups are =)
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[19:50:50] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: nice combination... is he called when its "we have to saw the hip bone in half" or some chiseling work?
[19:50:51] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[19:52:23] <Loetmichel> hmm, for the blades: a damascus blade is so good because it hase high carbon steel for the edge and also a more "springy" steel for not breaking
[19:52:46] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Cuts the bone in have, forges a pin and brace and installs them
[19:52:50] <Jymmm> half
[19:53:23] <taiden> nowadays damascus is more ornamental
[19:53:34] <Loetmichel> but better blades are the induction hardened/carbonized edge and "normal" stell blade. IMHO
[19:53:53] <taiden> it's very rare to get steel that actually has carbon steel localized to just the edge
[19:54:28] <taiden> but if you can find a knifemaker who folds his own damascus steel and takes this into consideration... make sure you don't piss him off :)
[19:54:30] <Loetmichel> taiden: it is possible to carbonize a steel "in form" on the outside
[19:54:50] <Loetmichel> and harden it, and the rest of the blade stays "springy"
[19:55:04] <taiden> well you can have different tempers
[19:55:12] <taiden> in the edge as opposed to the spine
[19:55:49] <taiden> some makers do actually fold high carbon steel into the edge and leave the spine some sort of patterned stainless and these are the guys to watch out for
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[19:56:48] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[19:57:29] <Loetmichel> if you see one of these: can you talk him into makin me 2 new blades for the Leatherman?
[19:57:43] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: O_o
[19:57:57] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: carbon blades for leatherman?
[19:58:13] <Loetmichel> if run through the 6th "return to factory" in the last 10 years for disappearing/breaking blades
[19:58:23] <Loetmichel> it gets annoying
[19:58:24] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[19:58:41] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: IT"S NOT A POCKET HAND AXE!
[19:58:50] <Loetmichel> disappearing like in "sharpened away"
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[19:58:56] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: it isnt?
[19:58:57] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[19:59:19] <Jymmm> what are you sharepening them with, an 24" angle grinder?
[19:59:22] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12016
[19:59:27] <Loetmichel> the old one
[19:59:43] <gmagno> erm... hello, I just got this error: http://postimage.org/image/6kcc6lxu1/ Any idea what might be the problem?
[20:00:23] <Loetmichel> on the last retunr they gave me a new one "sorry, out of stock of old blades, here's a new tool out of coutesy, and now SHUT UP!" ore somethin in more pleasant language
[20:00:23] <Jymmm> broken pipe, call a plumber =)
[20:00:32] <Loetmichel> ... so much to the lifelong warranty
[20:00:32] <gmagno> :)
[20:00:59] <gmagno> i suspect it has something to do with wirering, but apparently everything is ok
[20:01:01] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: snicker
[20:01:05] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: did they reall say (in so many words) go awaya and dont come back?
[20:01:16] <Loetmichel> not on so many words
[20:01:23] <Loetmichel> but recognizeable
[20:01:40] <Jymmm> what did you have before, and what did they give you?
[20:01:56] <Loetmichel> you have seen the old one
[20:02:04] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12183
[20:02:07] <Loetmichel> thats the new
[20:02:30] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12165
[20:02:44] <Jymmm> oh, the new wave with the locking tools
[20:02:58] <Jymmm> I have the old original wave with leather sheath too
[20:03:13] <Loetmichel> that was that i had before
[20:03:27] <Loetmichel> and i have the leather heat and the bit holder and the bits also
[20:03:32] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=13224
[20:03:39] <Loetmichel> fits the new one also
[20:03:46] <andypugh> I am puzzled as to how something can be more "springy" than plain carbon steel.
[20:04:05] <Jymmm> andypugh: more rubber?
[20:04:07] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i should have said: more ductile?
[20:04:18] <Loetmichel> i meant: not breakable
[20:04:24] <andypugh> More ductile sounds good.
[20:04:32] <archivist> ductile means it bends and stays bent
[20:04:44] <Loetmichel> shi*
[20:04:46] <ctjctj> andypugh: hard to convert knifemaker speak to technical speak, *grin*
[20:04:52] <Jymmm> less brittle?
[20:04:57] <Loetmichel> wahts the word for acting like a spring?
[20:04:58] <andypugh> Though plain carbon steel in a soft temper can be rather ductile.
[20:05:11] <Loetmichel> yes, less brittle, but not bending
[20:05:16] <skunkworks> gmagno, it seems to be when hal is already running.. Could you try again after a reboot? running stepconf
[20:05:16] <archivist> toughness
[20:05:30] <Jymmm> flexability =)
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[20:05:39] <andypugh> Toughness is different again.
[20:05:43] <Loetmichel> flexibnle would fit, yes
[20:05:50] <Jymmm> like a gymnast =)
[20:05:51] <ctjctj> the two steels, one is often so hard as to be "brittle" so it would break if you apply to much lateral pressure. By combining it with a softer steel that is more ductile you correct the brittle ness.
[20:06:16] <andypugh> This would be useful, it it was true.
[20:06:22] <Jymmm> lol
[20:06:54] <Loetmichel> what i meand: for the edge wou want to have a steel thats hard as it gets... for the spine it should bend to an U shape (in extremo) and not break and go back to straight if let loose
[20:06:56] <Loetmichel> meant
[20:07:09] <andypugh> I guess a softer back could leave you with a bent sword with a fractured edge which was still a lot more useful for clefting in twain your foemen than a broken stump, though.
[20:07:28] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i think so, too
[20:08:09] <Loetmichel> and as i have seen a japanese Katana with 50(!() folds... aweseome performanve
[20:08:12] <ctjctj> andypugh: The Katana is a great example of this working. The historical katana had 512+ layers. The alternating layers gave it a slight "wave" on the very edge.
[20:08:25] <ctjctj> It could be sharpened to a razor edge and hold it.
[20:08:31] <skunkworks> gmagno, or your printer port address is wrong
[20:08:33] <ctjctj> The almost never ever broke.
[20:08:34] <Loetmichel> i thin it could even cut a steel rebar without a scratch
[20:09:24] <Loetmichel> an old (girl) friend of mine has gotten a set to her second dan.
[20:09:27] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: was it 50+ folds or did they talk layers.
[20:09:31] <Loetmichel> manufactured the old way
[20:09:35] <Loetmichel> FOLDS
[20:10:03] <andypugh> Loetmichel: That's just implausible. Not that it could be hard enough to not be scratched by the rebar, that's easy. But that the sword could have enough stored energy to move a katana's width of mild steel out of the way.
[20:10:05] <Loetmichel> i was told the japanese blacksith has used the better time of a year to make the triple set
[20:10:08] <ctjctj> I've been allowed to handle 3 "National treasure" katanas. And they are fucking amazing.
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[20:10:51] <Jymmm> ctjctj: But how do they slice cheese?
[20:11:07] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: like butter...
[20:11:14] <gmagno> skunkworks, interesting, I just restarted PC, x and y axes worked ok, when I tested z axis I got that error again...
[20:11:18] <Jymmm> or bread, or even a tomato after slicing a can in half?
[20:11:22] <ctjctj> andypugh: Oh I believe they will cut rebar easily. And with enough energy to do it.
[20:11:36] <gmagno> skunkworks, gonna restart again and start by testing z axis
[20:11:42] <Loetmichel> and the plebs to clean the blade with his body afterwars has to stand by ;-)
[20:12:01] <Jymmm> ctjctj: My $20 USD kukri can do that
[20:12:03] <gmagno> skunkworks, could it be a wiring problem?
[20:12:16] <skunkworks> gmagno, unlikely
[20:12:19] <andypugh> ctjctj: Believe all you like. However your fervour fails to convince me.
[20:12:43] <gmagno> skunkworks, good, because i recently fixed two wires
[20:12:46] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: my friend has cut a arm thick birch tree with one swing.
[20:12:58] <Loetmichel> and it doesent looked like much force needed ;-)
[20:12:59] <gmagno> skunkworks, could it be an update issue?
[20:13:08] <gmagno> skunkworks, this is a fresh isntall
[20:13:48] <gmagno> skunkworks, z axis is working now
[20:13:56] <gmagno> skunkworks, after new restart
[20:14:00] <skunkworks> odd
[20:14:21] <gmagno> skunkworks, all the axis are working now
[20:14:35] <gmagno> let see for how long...
[20:14:36] <skunkworks> what version of linuxcnc are you running? I would make sure you have the latest release version (2.5)
[20:14:55] <gmagno> skunkworks, it is 2.5
[20:15:13] <ctjctj> andypugh: the Katana is pulled over the head with two hands. This starts the blade in a linear motion. as the hands reach forward you start to pull back with left hand (bottom hand) as the right hand continues forward. This translates the linear motion to angular motion. Because the energy we are talking about is momentum the formula is m*v^2 . This means that the tip is moving fast.
[20:15:22] <andypugh> I do know a fair bit about plain-carbon spring steel, incidentally. I developed a new microalloyed version during my first postdoc which could be work-hardened to 2.2GPA.
[20:15:51] <gmagno> skunkworks, everything's working now... :-|
[20:16:00] <gmagno> skunkworks, not very happy though
[20:16:02] <ctjctj> andypugh: the problem might be that I'm considering a piece of rebar 12mm in diameter being held at one end. The other end free to move. If both ends were held and the there was no space it would be a differnt question.
[20:16:35] <andypugh> energy can't equal momentum.
[20:16:56] <ctjctj> andypugh: and with that I know that I've got my terms mixed up. Blame it on old.
[20:17:49] <ctjctj> F=ma, so momentum is force? Damn, got to go look it up again.
[20:18:04] <andypugh> But how much energy is stored in the blade and the arms of the wielder? Given that a tennis player can manage a 120mph serve, then 60mph seems possible.
[20:18:06] <ctjctj> Regardless, fast moving tip does cut well.
[20:18:50] <andypugh> (because a light ball hit by a heavy striker departs at twice the striker speed)
[20:18:52] <ctjctj> andypugh: remember that the tennis player is using a full body motion. And the speed we are looking at is the tip of the blade. (top 5in)
[20:19:53] <andypugh> ctjctj: No, we are talking about the total stored energy in the system, including the arms of the chap. Just considering the tip of the blade gives you a very small energy.
[20:19:54] <ctjctj> so you have to look at the mechanics of the strike. It is not just a "swing" but that pull with a snap around a fulcrum at the end to change linear (or nearly linear) into almost entirely angular motion.
[20:20:56] <Loetmichel> i would wager tha an expeienced swordsman could get the tip of the katane to several 100 mph
[20:21:07] <andypugh> ctjctj: That "snap" transfers enery from the arms to the blade tip, the energy in the system isn't changed by it.
[20:22:43] <Loetmichel> i've seen christine ti the "apple" trick... (throwing an apple in the air beside the upright katane in the other hand, make a FAST move, chats the falling apple and it defolds to 4 slices IN THE HAND... not in the air...
[20:22:56] <Loetmichel> christine-> the old friend
[20:23:26] <Loetmichel> i think the blade has to move REAL fast to disappear to the normal observer
[20:23:50] <Loetmichel> i couldnt see the blade move,just the apple being cut in quarters
[20:24:37] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Much faster than a golf club do you think? I would imagine that it would be subject to very similar physiologial limits, and golfers are paid more to practice :-)
[20:25:22] <Loetmichel> i cant tell you physics... just observations
[20:25:56] <skunkworks> gmagno, ?
[20:25:57] <andypugh> I have never seen a Katana, so all I have is physics. But that's all anyone needs :-)
[20:26:02] <Loetmichel> ... being a middle school guy, no college , no university ;-)
[20:26:05] <gmagno> skunkworks, yes
[20:26:13] <gmagno> skunkworks, did i miss something?
[20:26:18] <skunkworks> not very happy?
[20:26:40] <ctjctj> andypugh: The physics say that the total energy stays the same in the system. You just move it around. We start with the energy in the human which is translated to Force to begin acceleration of the sword, golf club, tennis racket.
[20:27:14] <ctjctj> That force is the stored in "momentum" (if I remember my physics from long long ago)
[20:27:18] <gmagno> skunkworks, yeah, not very happy with the uncertainty if you know what i mean... But I just did the "LinuxCNC" carve test, and no problems at all... :) I think I should be happy then
[20:28:14] <ctjctj> At the point in time at which the blade strikes something the blade is decelerated which converts the momentum back into force. So now we have force applied to the cutting edge at the point of contact.
[20:28:34] <gmagno> skunkworks, btw, are you curious to see my poor man's cnc? :D I'm uploding a video
[20:28:50] <skunkworks> gmagno, sweet!
[20:29:51] <ctjctj> andypugh: so it works an awful lot like hitting a nail with a hammer. And I'm sure you've seen people use a hammer to drive nails into things that they could not push the nail into. *GRIN*
[20:29:58] <Loetmichel> gmagno: maybe you had running some background task?
[20:30:26] <Loetmichel> i have made the experience that sometimes the stepgen wizart is not abvle to test the axes
[20:30:29] <ctjctj> what's the name of the program or button in stepconf that calculates how fast your system can go?
[20:30:34] <Loetmichel> without any error report
[20:30:44] <Loetmichel> reboot and it does like a charm...
[20:31:07] * skunkworks has not actually used stepconf
[20:31:10] <Loetmichel> so i understand your uncertainity, but havent had any problems so far when milling
[20:31:30] <andypugh> ctjctj: Yes, absolutely. But the energy required to push the nail into the wood is the same whether it is a short slow push or a long accelleration.
[20:31:38] <Loetmichel> ... (if you dont count some hard reboots, but i THINK tey are heat related)
[20:32:11] <ctjctj> gmagno: you need to test base period maxiumn jitter.
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[20:32:54] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: for reference: told girl WAS able to pus nails in wood wothout a hammer ;-)
[20:33:08] <andypugh> A hammer is almost the same as a lever. You exhange a small force over a relatively long movement (the swing) for a much higher force over a smaller motion (the strike). And for the sizes of nail that you can hammer home in one striike, you often can get them in with a nail pusher.
[20:33:33] <ctjctj> andypugh: ok, a katana works the same way.
[20:33:41] <gmagno> skunkworks, hey :D http://min.us/mbwXpvMXH sry for the bad video quality
[20:33:49] <gmagno> Loetmichel, nothing in background at all
[20:33:57] <gmagno> ctjctj, :-o damn you're right I forgot that
[20:34:02] <andypugh> Yes, and the energy required to cut the rebar is pretty mush the same regardless of how you do it.
[20:35:08] <Loetmichel> andypugh: is that so?
[20:35:24] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: yes, it is true. energy is the same.
[20:35:25] <Loetmichel> isnt the enger dependand on the widh of the blade?
[20:35:52] <Loetmichel> and how much deformation goes into the blade instead of the rebar?
[20:35:54] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Well, granted that a saw is a pretty ineffficient way to do it, because you are making many more cuts that stricly necessary.
[20:36:21] <skunkworks> gmagno, Nice!
[20:37:05] <gmagno> skunkworks, =D thanks
[20:37:26] <gmagno> it took me less than 200
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[20:38:37] <Loetmichel> andypugh: IIRC if one could make a singe atom wide blade with infinite stegh, one cut ANY material with nearly NO force at all, so nearly no energy needed
[20:38:41] <Loetmichel> single
[20:39:10] <ctjctj> gmagno: nice. I've seen that artwork somewhere before *grin*
[20:39:34] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Yes. But a single-atom blade would ordinarily be rather weak.
[20:39:47] <Loetmichel> gmagno: i just see a thumbnail still, no video
[20:39:50] <FinboySlick> andypugh: We need better physics.
[20:40:02] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: you have to click and download it.
[20:40:04] <gmagno> ctjctj, sure, it is based on this (http://buildyourcnc.com/step8a.aspx) dude site
[20:40:25] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i meant: isnt the energy needed to cut something a function of the blade width
[20:40:28] <JT-Shop> andypugh, you getting a mini computer from China?
[20:40:30] <FinboySlick> andypugh: They found the higgs now, they can work on strong graphene blades.
[20:40:30] <andypugh> This is well worth watching, it sort-of hints why after a certian point it doesn't matter how atomically sharp your blade is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwh3ouvzSLk&feature=related
[20:41:00] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Yes, but it is the blade-width, not the edge-width.
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[20:41:19] <gmagno> ctjctj, but I had to scale it down. In fact I redesigned that cnc based on his videos and pictures
[20:41:30] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i know, i dint say edge with, i said blade width ;-)
[20:41:57] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: i was to less patient ;-)
[20:42:47] <Loetmichel> ouch, that sounded like step loss
[20:42:55] <FinboySlick> that slow-mo steel is making me hungry for nouga
[20:43:26] <Loetmichel> (at about 30 secs)
[20:43:36] <gmagno> ctjctj, I'm uploading a picture of my desing
[20:44:03] <ctjctj> andypugh: thank you for that video. That was some incredible micro video.
[20:45:02] <Loetmichel> *cough* maybe some improvements are in order? noke acme thread instead of M8 and torsion box for the gantry? */cough*
[20:45:16] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[20:45:59] <Loetmichel> andypugh_ the hss uncoated: why bother sharpening?
[20:46:00] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[20:47:31] <gmagno> ctjctj, http://min.us/mbwXpvMXH
[20:47:53] <gmagno> the picture on the right
[20:48:36] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: I'm using 1/4" 20 stainless steel right now, next upgrade is supported linear bearings for the X axis and just closed linear bearings for the Y axis. That will make a huge difference in the rigidity of my machine.
[20:48:49] <andypugh> Blimey this is big: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuHJBIMj_rs
[20:49:04] <ctjctj> after that it's 1/2" 10TPI acme upgrade for the X and Y.
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[20:52:57] <ctjctj> andypugh: so how much energy is in that steam engine????? *GRIN*
[20:53:23] <andypugh> ctjctj: Even at that speed, more than in a Katana :-)
[20:53:49] <ctjctj> *laughs* Of that I'm sure. I'm not sure I would want to be that close to that many moving parts.
[20:54:01] <archivist> andypugh, been up those engines before they were re started...effin large
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[20:54:51] <ctjctj> The boilers for that thing must be huge.
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[20:55:45] <ctjctj> Now just think about how big the lathe and milling machines had to be to make those parts...
[20:56:24] <andypugh> This is the engine my great-grandad left the navy to run. It's not as big as the other one, but rather more scary. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOBSfdBWSWY&feature=related
[20:56:29] <PCW> beatifully restored
[20:56:55] <PCW> though those gears look rather pinchy
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[20:57:28] <ctjctj> what do they do with all that power?
[20:57:46] <andypugh> The River Don engine ran a rollling mill that made nuclear power stations, which is an odd thought.
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[21:00:04] <ctjctj> andypugh: thank you again for those youtube finds. Very impressive.
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[21:02:38] <gmagno> yeah, amazing
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[21:03:12] <archivist> that engine sucks the boiler dry in a few minutes
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[21:06:29] <mozmck> those are a bit larger than my 5 hp marine engine.
[21:11:20] <JT-Shop> mozmck, do you have a boiler for your engine?
[21:12:42] <mozmck> nope, it's on my very long project list though.
[21:13:50] <JT-Shop> I'm building the PM Research #6 atm http://www.pmresearchinc.com/store/home.php?cat=4
[21:14:08] <JT-Shop> I want to build a simple boiler for it
[21:15:39] <mozmck> neat. Mine is vertical - about 4' tall. I'd love to hook it up to a lineshaft and run several machines in my shop with it.
[21:17:09] <JT-Shop> that would be cool to see
[21:18:02] <JT-Shop> my ultimate goal is to make at least a 10hp triple with a generator on it but the boiler would be a pain
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[21:22:54] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[21:23:27] <Loetmichel> wouldnt a steam tubine more effective to genereate electric power?
[21:33:22] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I would never expect YOU to be building a model scale sized thing.
[21:33:44] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: the real deal or nada!
[21:35:02] <mozmck> I've run mine with an air compressor :)
[21:35:03] <Loetmichel> am i right that you HAVE to have at least 3 cylindert to get it running out of any position?
[21:35:28] <Loetmichel> 3 direct driven, not triple expansion
[21:35:29] <mozmck> I don't know about that.
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[21:39:20] <JT-Shop> I have a small 2 cylinder and it starts by itself when pressure is applied
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[21:43:31] <archivist> Loetmichel, two cylinders at 90 deg and double acting
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[21:44:14] <Loetmichel> <- turns the raio WAAAAAY up... "Sir duke" ... great sax ;-)
[21:44:52] <archivist> a lot of steam engines have auxiliary engines to rotate the main engine to starting position from the warming position
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[21:45:42] <syyl> i saw that on a huge stationary gas engine, too
[21:45:54] <syyl> "little" electric motor with backgear
[21:47:25] <archivist> fun when visitors look for that at Leawood...we dont rotate
[21:48:19] <Loetmichel> archivist: just open the valve? ;-)
[21:48:49] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: is the 2 cyliinder "double action"?
[21:49:01] <Loetmichel> as in: the cylinder working both directions?
[21:49:04] <archivist> we also get a percentage asking where the water is sprayed in...it is not a newcomen engine
[21:49:09] <JT-Shop> Loetmichel, yes
[21:49:10] <Loetmichel> than 2 cylinders 90° are anough
[21:49:37] <archivist> single double acting has 2 dead spots
[21:50:32] <archivist> Leawood is a single cylinder single acting and no dead spot
[21:53:15] <Loetmichel> archivist: because of?
[21:53:27] <archivist> no flywheel
[21:53:38] <Loetmichel> ?
[21:54:45] <archivist> the dead spot on a rotating engine is crank top/bottom dead center, no flywheel and crank no dead spot
[21:55:08] * JT-Shop grins
[21:55:34] <Loetmichel> is the leawood a "hopping earth compactor?
[21:55:49] <Loetmichel> or why it doesent need a crank?
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[21:57:17] <archivist> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdIgEQ-r0nU
[21:57:37] <Loetmichel> AH, i see
[21:57:38] <archivist> I managed to not be in the video :)
[21:57:46] <Loetmichel> ok, then no ded spits, ok
[21:57:49] <Loetmichel> spots;-)
[21:58:42] <archivist> thats the little toy I play with
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[22:00:37] <Loetmichel> archivist; am i seeing that right: the steam lifts the HEAVY piston and the gravity "pumps" the water by pulling the piston back dwon?
[22:01:14] <archivist> the piston is pushed down not up, else correct
[22:01:20] <Loetmichel> or does it put steam in the cylinder only at the rod side?
[22:01:52] <archivist> yes puts steam in above the piston, also has a vacuum below the piston
[22:02:25] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYoNbjOu0vs
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[22:03:37] <archivist> kids!
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[22:10:15] <frallzor> yo
[22:15:40] <gmagno> Loetmichel, were you able to see the video? I just figured out that you wrote something about only seeing the thumbnail.
[22:15:52] <Loetmichel> i was
[22:15:58] <gmagno> :P kk
[22:17:10] <Loetmichel> [22:42] <Loetmichel> ouch, that sounded like step loss
[22:17:14] <Loetmichel> [22:43] <Loetmichel> (at about 30 secs)
[22:17:19] <Loetmichel> [22:45] <Loetmichel> *cough* maybe some improvements are in order? noke acme thread instead of M8 and torsion box for the gantry? */cough*
[22:18:02] * frallzor want to see the video too
[22:18:07] <frallzor> =(
[22:19:06] <Loetmichel> ask gmagno
[22:19:20] * frallzor cuddles with gmagno
[22:19:27] <frallzor> that should do it for a link
[22:19:50] <andypugh> The steam piston lifts the heavy water pump piston, just to clarify.
[22:20:19] <frallzor> sounds dirty out of context
[22:20:21] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i had understand that
[22:20:21] <frallzor> I like it
[22:20:36] <andypugh> The Cruquius one is a lot of fun.
[22:20:59] <Loetmichel> i only thought it would be simpler to make a single action steam engine with the rod-less side full of steam
[22:21:19] <gmagno> hey frallzor http://minus.com/mbwXpvMXH/2 :)
[22:21:28] <andypugh> Loetmichel: Indeed, I was saying that you were right, and archivist might have misunderstood you
[22:21:34] <Loetmichel> if youre goung through the trouble of sealing the rod, why not make it double action anyway?`
[22:22:07] <frallzor> fancy =)
[22:22:08] <andypugh> They didn't trust pressurised boilers (with good reason at the time)
[22:22:19] <gmagno> :)
[22:22:43] <frallzor> MDF i assume
[22:23:10] <andypugh> So, they created steam at 4psi, then used the pressure differential of it condensing to make the power.
[22:23:11] <gmagno> yes
[22:23:12] <frallzor> MDF the underdog of wood, ppl dislike it for some reason when its really nice
[22:23:32] <gmagno> I liked a lot to work with it
[22:23:36] <Loetmichel> ah, its a vacuum machine.
[22:23:41] <Loetmichel> i understand now
[22:23:50] <andypugh> You can run the early design of steam engine using a kettle with a loose-fitting lid.
[22:23:51] <Tom_itx> it's all glue
[22:24:00] <frallzor> and dust
[22:24:06] <frallzor> dont forget the dust
[22:24:08] <Tom_itx> and dulls cutters like crazy
[22:24:17] <Tom_itx> and the dus
[22:24:18] <Tom_itx> t
[22:24:23] <Tom_itx> don't forget the dust !
[22:24:28] <Loetmichel> put low pressure steam on top and send the old from the last round to the bottom whre it consenses and creates a vacuum
[22:24:37] <frallzor> No issues with dulling here
[22:24:53] <frallzor> same cuts as before with the good collection of wooden cutters =)
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[22:25:07] <frallzor> biggest issue for my tools is... well me
[22:25:08] <Loetmichel> frallzor: that may be because mfs is little more thean pressed dust
[22:25:10] <frallzor> I tend to brake em
[22:25:16] <Loetmichel> no glue, no structure
[22:25:24] <Loetmichel> just sawdust, heat and pressure
[22:25:44] <Loetmichel> and like this it works: any water: triple in size and desintegrate
[22:26:15] <Loetmichel> any change an air humidity: expect thte workpieces to exmand/bend/shrink/ warp
[22:26:32] <frallzor> well if one wants water close then one should use HDF at the very least
[22:27:30] <Loetmichel> Tom_itx: and MDF has NO glue in it
[22:27:33] <Loetmichel> not a bit
[22:28:23] <Loetmichel> the only thing that holds MDF together is the molten and solidfied lignin from the wood dust
[22:28:56] <Loetmichel> frallzor: i have buld my share of "wooden" cnc routers
[22:29:07] <Loetmichel> but i would NEVER have used MDF
[22:29:13] <frallzor> MDF does contain a binder
[22:29:21] <Loetmichel> always used "siebdruckplatte"
[22:29:30] <frallzor> usually some type of resin
[22:30:09] <Loetmichel> frallzor: i was told not. the only binder is the natrual lignin from the wood dust which will nelt under the heat/pressure and then re-solidify
[22:30:24] <Loetmichel> and i9 was told that from a MDF manufactuer
[22:31:11] <frallzor> maybe they do it like that, some weirdos insist on the "natural ways" to achieve thing
[22:31:15] <frallzor> s =P
[22:31:25] <frallzor> I like chemicals
[22:31:33] <Loetmichel> but wahtever, i would not use a humidity sensitive material in high precision parts...
[22:32:01] <Loetmichel> i build it this way: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11205
[22:32:07] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11175
[22:32:45] <gmagno> that's big :) is that you?
[22:33:21] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: what type of wood is that? And what plans did you use for the construction?
[22:33:59] <Loetmichel> no plans
[22:34:02] <Loetmichel> imagination
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[22:34:33] <andypugh> Loetmichel: "Formaldehyde resins are commonly used to bind MDF together," http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard
[22:34:34] <Loetmichel> the wood is called "siebdruckplatte" in germany, its basically plywood with meamin-resin as binder, not white glue
[22:35:49] <ctjctj> I followed the JGRO and like what I ended up with. Made one serious mistake that is causing me heart ache though. The linear bearings sit in to parallel groves. having those groves too deep causes all of your alignment capability to disappear. Which is exactly what happened to me.
[22:36:41] <Loetmichel> andypugh: so the germans do it different again?
[22:36:50] <Loetmichel> or maybe just that manufacturer
[22:36:53] <frallzor> http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/fresningquad2.jpg Lets play, guess what it will become
[22:37:19] <Loetmichel> he told me the fibre boards are just hold together by the wood chips itself
[22:37:54] <andypugh> frallzor: A clock?
[22:38:03] <frallzor> nope, it will fly
[22:38:10] <frallzor> and the name is a clue
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[22:38:18] <Loetmichel> the name gives it away
[22:38:56] <andypugh> frallzor: A lutfisk drying rack
[22:39:00] <frallzor> got bored today and got me som Ally and some profiles for arms, and suddenly im making a quadcopter
[22:39:34] <Loetmichel> something like this: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12997
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[22:39:43] <Loetmichel> but with 2 less motors
[22:40:30] <ctjctj> Loetmichel: google tells me that is called "phenolic resin coated plywood" How much did you pay per sheet?
[22:40:31] <frallzor> yup
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[22:41:00] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: about 50 eur per m^2 21mm thick
[22:41:09] <Loetmichel> but cut to size
[22:41:12] <andypugh> It occurred to me yesterday that I have two unemployed NEMA23 servos. And a suitable drive. And a spare LinuxCNC PC. So, perhaps I ought to make a servo-repstrap
[22:41:21] <Loetmichel> whole sheets are chaper
[22:41:24] <Loetmichel> cheaper
[22:42:23] <ctjctj> Ok. That matches what I was seeing on Google for costing so that means I found the "right" thing. Likely much more stable than MDF.
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[22:43:42] <ctjctj> got to go toss pizza pies... Home made pizza for dinner (from the wheat berries we ground yesterday), home made pizza sauce, home grown green things... Too bad the meat and cheese aren't home made.
[22:43:47] <Loetmichel> and being a not water solible resin used as glue: nearly no reaction to water
[22:43:53] <Loetmichel> or humidity
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[22:49:36] <Loetmichel> my new cnc will be buold from the stuff also, but 9mm thick
[22:49:48] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8872
[22:50:02] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8884
[22:50:15] <Loetmichel> groundplate and one y sled is done already
[22:50:38] <Loetmichel> gantry is missing since one jear, have to find some thime to make it complete ;-)
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[22:57:56] <ctjctj> 9mm sounds awfully thin.
[22:58:58] <ctjctj> Won't that flex like too much?
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[23:08:41] <Loetmichel> ctjctj: thats why i use torsion boxes whre ever possible
[23:08:57] <ctjctj> Ok. That makes sense.
[23:08:59] <Loetmichel> so the strengh comes from th boxes, not the material itself
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[23:09:31] <Loetmichel> remember: a tube si nearly as rigid as the same diamete full bar
[23:10:10] <Loetmichel> is
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[23:40:45] <andypugh> gene_: Are you sure your g-code didn't work? Which LinuxCNC version?
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[23:44:05] <andypugh> Does anyone in the UK have a rather big T-slot table? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110911991199
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[23:47:33] <WillenCMD> Good evening
[23:48:05] <andypugh> Hi
[23:48:09] <andypugh> Made a decision?
[23:48:42] <WillenCMD> I sent in my resume
[23:48:59] <WillenCMD> to a couple more places
[23:49:36] <andypugh> OK. That's like making a decision, but different.
[23:50:02] <WillenCMD> I just don't want to put all my eggs in one basket
[23:50:03] <Tom_itx> it's more like the first one just got you thinking
[23:50:23] <WillenCMD> make sure if im going to make a move its the right one
[23:50:37] <Tom_itx> start your own company and work for all of them
[23:51:03] <andypugh> That might work, you know
[23:51:11] <Tom_itx> that's why i suggested it
[23:51:18] <WillenCMD> i have my own company
[23:52:03] <Tom_itx> you're halfway there then
[23:52:21] <WillenCMD> actually its doing really well to
[23:52:36] <Tom_itx> iirc you do programming?
[23:52:53] <WillenCMD> well i made a pitch to one company and they wanted me to design/retrofit 3 machines
[23:53:23] <WillenCMD> then they suggest me to another company, but i just don't have the time to do all this while working 40 hours a week
[23:54:16] <WillenCMD> designing a machine takes hours and hours of calculations, and designing it in solidworks, then running motion studies, stress analysis al the goodies
[23:54:26] <WillenCMD> all*
[23:54:45] <andypugh> True, too much work is as bad as too little
[23:55:14] <andypugh> So, is it possible to just choose the fun jobs?
[23:55:35] <Tom_itx> hire some grunts to do the dirty work
[23:55:36] <WillenCMD> lol i want to, its just a huge risk in todays market
[23:55:53] <JT-Shop> the Anaheim Automation BLDC motor/drive is on the way
[23:56:02] <Tom_itx> woo hoo
[23:56:09] <Tom_itx> they had one for you?
[23:56:12] <WillenCMD> awesome keep us updated
[23:56:34] <WillenCMD> whats the power rating on the motor?
[23:56:53] <JT-Shop> yea, they had to assemble it
[23:57:16] <JT-Shop> let me find the specs
[23:57:23] <Tom_itx> well at least you're not waiting 14 weeks
[23:57:36] <WillenCMD> true, maybe i just wanted a a rare motor
[23:57:54] <WillenCMD> it was a nema 17 brushless dc motor, with a 40,000 max rpm
[23:57:59] <JT-Shop> if they have the components on the shelf it is a day or two to ship
[23:58:38] <WillenCMD> i was designing a gear deburring machine for company, they wanted to get away from the air powered one
[23:58:39] <JT-Shop> 185 watt
[23:59:10] <WillenCMD> why didn't you just use the mesa 7i39?
[23:59:14] <JT-Shop> http://www.anaheimautomation.com/products/brushless/brushless-integrated-item.php?sID=147&pt=i&tID=97&cID=48
[23:59:24] <WillenCMD> 2, 250 watt bldc driver's
[23:59:29] <JT-Shop> this is for a stand alone project
[23:59:29] <andypugh> Oh, to answer an earlier question: Yes, that chinese chap is sending me a little PC to play with.
[23:59:37] <JT-Shop> me too
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[23:59:50] <JT-Shop> what should we do with them
[23:59:57] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop what's the cost on one of those?