#linuxcnc | Logs for 2012-05-10

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[00:00:33] <jdhNC> have you tried cutting anything yet?
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[00:22:14] <alex4nder> jdhNC: mills aren't for cutting
[00:22:20] <alex4nder> they're for epic time wasting.
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[00:31:45] <tjb1> anyone know of a barcode scanner that works on ubuntu
[00:32:19] <djdelorie> the original cuecat works just fine with any linux, once you hack out the encryption chip
[00:33:16] <Jymmm> not encryption
[00:33:26] <Jymmm> encoded
[00:34:06] <Tom_itx> his was the encrypted model
[00:34:17] <tjb1> any other options?
[00:36:08] <Tom_itx> http://tuxmobil.org/barcode_readers_unix.html
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[00:37:33] <tjb1> So do some of you load programs with a bar code scanner?
[00:38:01] <Tom_itx> no
[00:44:26] <alangarf> tjb1, look at Symbol they have plenty of USB/PS2 barcode scanners
[00:44:32] <alangarf> they just act like a keyboard
[00:44:56] <tjb1> Why is this guy so dead set on removing the serial number from the cuecat?
[00:44:57] <tjb1> http://www.sujal.net/tech/declaw/
[00:45:24] <Jymmm> sigh
[00:46:54] <Jymmm> Ok, the cuecat is not ENCRYPTED, but it originally had a unique prefixed tracking number before the actual UPC code. It was a marketing thing at the time. But, if you mode it, it removes the unique tracking id and leaves you with a pure UPC code.
[00:47:11] <Jymmm> s/mode/mod/
[00:48:01] <Jymmm> you can buy a moded usb cutecat on ebay for $10
[00:48:44] <Jymmm> modded also called "declawed"
[00:49:10] <Jymmm> http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Modified-USB-Barcode-Scanner-Cue-Cat-CueCat-Reader-/251053147619?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a73ef05e3
[00:49:50] <Jymmm> no software or drivers needed as is emulates a keyboard
[00:50:10] <FinboySlick> The brits took away my Top Gear... Andy, go manifest in the streets.
[00:50:17] <roycroft> the replacement touchscreen controller arrived today, and they shipped two of them
[00:50:18] <Jymmm> when you scan a barcode it returns the code and a newline character
[00:50:23] <roycroft> i guess they want to make sure it works
[00:50:42] * roycroft should go find out soon
[00:53:01] <tjb1> Thanks Jymmm
[00:53:21] <tjb1> Im going to "neuter" mine.
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[01:05:58] <ReadError_> hey alex4nder
[01:06:03] <ReadError_> what was that mobo you got again?
[01:06:10] <ReadError_> i got an amazon gift cert at work
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[01:06:59] <alex4nder> ReadError_: DN2800MT
[01:07:21] <alex4nder> ReadError_: i'll put up a recipe for my entire machine one of these days
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[01:09:49] <r00t4rd3d> ReadError_, http://i.imgur.com/5f7hY.jpg
[01:10:01] <ReadError_> nice
[01:10:35] <r00t4rd3d> ive gotten more done since that pic and got the rest of my needed parts
[01:10:48] <r00t4rd3d> i think
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[01:39:45] <joe9> what is the recommended stepover for face milling?
[01:39:54] <joe9> I notice that with 1.5, I get notches in the middle.
[01:40:01] <joe9> 1.5 of tool radius, I meant.
[01:41:37] <alex4nder> where are the notches? at the overlap?
[01:41:43] <joe9> yes.
[01:41:56] <joe9> i mean between 2 runs when going from inside to the outside.
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[01:42:27] <joe9> i am trying with 1 now. just curious, if there is a standard number or formula to calculate it.
[01:42:54] <alex4nder> are you just trying to get a nice finish?
[01:44:02] <joe9> yes.
[01:44:40] <joe9> "from inside to outside", I meant that I am milling in concentric circle'ish and I am ging from the inside circle to the outside.
[01:45:12] <joe9> i am using a cutter (instead of a miller) and that could be a reason for the notches too.
[01:45:14] <alex4nder> how big is your face mill?
[01:45:33] <joe9> 0.0625
[01:45:36] <joe9> is the tool radius.
[01:45:46] <joe9> 1/16 inch
[01:45:51] <alex4nder> oh
[01:45:58] <Tom_itx> that's not a face cutter :)
[01:46:21] <alex4nder> joe9: you're going to get machining marks
[01:46:29] <Tom_itx> tool deflection comes into play too
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[01:46:37] <Tom_itx> use a really short cutter
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[01:47:03] <alex4nder> yah, or one with a giant radius, like a fly cutter
[01:47:17] <joe9> i was looking for a smooth finish. I am just starting out with a cutter to get a feel for how the program will work. I plan on buying some end mills tomorrow for the actual run.
[01:47:18] <alex4nder> or a face mill. ;)
[01:47:52] <joe9> face mills are expensive.
[01:47:57] <Tom_itx> yeah you'll get a better finish with a radius'd cutter whatever type it is
[01:48:05] <Tom_itx> milling is expensive
[01:48:09] <Tom_itx> get used to it
[01:48:33] <Tom_itx> shell mills are, you could make a fly cutter
[01:49:07] <Tom_itx> we used alot of insert shell mills
[01:49:26] <Tom_itx> from around 3" up to about 6" iirc
[01:50:03] <alex4nder> joe9: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koYGLVGkRsI#t=4m16
[01:50:28] <alex4nder> that's how you get a finish like that
[01:51:10] <FinboySlick> For the electronics guys: I'm looking for a 3.3v to 5v RS232 converter that will do all pins (or at least DCD on top of TX/RX)
[01:51:16] <alex4nder> you keep constant load, and avoid witness marks.
[01:51:36] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: 3.3v to 5v input on TX and RX?
[01:52:24] <Tom_itx> alex4nder, that just uses standard tool steel right?
[01:52:26] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Yeah, something like this: http://www.sparkfun.com/products/449 But that converts the control lines too.
[01:52:47] <Tom_itx> or carbide as i see now :)
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[01:52:56] <Tom_itx> with a radius
[01:53:38] <Tom_itx> alex4nder, did you check for flatness when you were done?
[01:54:03] <Tom_itx> we cut alot of test specimens similar to that only thinner and that was always an issue
[01:54:14] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: that's not me, that's a tormach demo video
[01:54:17] <Tom_itx> oh
[01:54:27] <alex4nder> it's just the quickest thing I could find
[01:54:28] <Tom_itx> and here i thought you were showing off :D
[01:54:31] <alex4nder> haha
[01:54:32] <alex4nder> no
[01:54:42] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: ok, that converter sucks ass.
[01:54:45] <alex4nder> (tm)
[01:54:57] <alex4nder> like, it's not even RS232
[01:54:59] <Tom_itx> we had to cut specimens from both grain directions so they could take them back and break them
[01:55:07] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Yes, I only used it as an example of what I need.
[01:55:22] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: http://www.maxim-ic.com/datasheet/index.mvp/id/1798
[01:55:31] <FinboySlick> I have a 3.3v device that will talk rs232 with a pc, and also send a signal to the DCD line of the PC's serial port.
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[01:57:03] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: That only seems to convert tx and rx.
[01:57:34] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: why do you think TX, RX, DCD, RTS, CTS, and whatever, aren't just all the same electrically?
[01:57:35] <FinboySlick> Though if it's dual, I guess I could use the extra tx.
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[01:57:50] <alex4nder> because they're all the same. ;)
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[01:58:12] <ReadError_> scumbag amazon
[01:58:16] <ReadError_> Y U NO HAVE MOBO
[01:58:35] <FinboySlick> alex4nder: Oh I know they're the same electrically. What I mean is that I need to more than two lines.
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[01:59:18] <FinboySlick> And if I can buy it ready made, I certainly wouldn't mind just a DB9 connector with corresponding 3.3v solderpoint at the other end of the board.
[02:00:10] <alex4nder> FinboySlick: that link I gave you has parts with 8 TX and 10 RX, respectively
[02:00:20] <alex4nder> I guess I'm not sure what you need beyond that.
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[02:01:41] <Tom_itx> hold on, max makes one that would do all 4 lines iirc
[02:02:10] <alex4nder> Tom_itx: of course they do
[02:02:14] <alex4nder> I don't get what the issue is.
[02:02:31] <Tom_itx> me either
[02:02:44] <FinboySlick> No issue, I got that.
[02:02:48] <Tom_itx> you just need a 3.3v part
[02:03:32] <Tom_itx> i made one in a clamshell but it's 5v and 2 lines
[02:03:55] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_3.jpg
[02:05:25] <Tom_itx> dude i know made a 3.3v one that's data powered
[02:06:01] <Tom_itx> with all 4 lines
[02:06:22] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Pretty much what I'd be looking for (with the extra input line on the PC side). I just thought this is something people would use a lot so I could buy it ready made.
[02:06:55] <Tom_itx> not so much anymore
[02:07:05] <Tom_itx> USB took care of that
[02:07:09] <FinboySlick> Yeah.
[02:07:45] <Tom_itx> i asked him but he hasn't replied yet
[02:07:48] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Did the PCB come with the chip?
[02:07:55] <Tom_itx> ?
[02:08:00] <Tom_itx> i made it all
[02:08:24] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/rs232_2.jpg
[02:08:29] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: Fancy printing the labels as well then.
[02:08:50] <FinboySlick> OK, you made lots.
[02:08:57] <Tom_itx> a few not alot
[02:09:14] <Tom_itx> that's just part of the silkscreen
[02:09:41] <FinboySlick> Is there typically a +12v on the pc side or is it 5v? My Alix seems to use 5v so I'm confused.
[02:09:48] <Tom_itx> 12
[02:10:08] <Tom_itx> laptops don't always follow that
[02:10:25] <Tom_itx> if you read the standard, the voltage is a pretty wide range
[02:10:59] <alex4nder> yah
[02:11:20] <FinboySlick> This is starting to warrant making my own.
[02:11:35] <Tom_itx> dude probably has some left
[02:11:56] <Tom_itx> i never had a need for a 3.3v one or i would have made a few
[02:12:37] <FinboySlick> I think the typical 4 lines ones convert CTS and RTS.
[02:12:47] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:13:06] <FinboySlick> I need DCD so I'll likely have to make my own regardless.
[02:13:33] <Tom_itx> what's the max3221? i don't remember
[02:13:44] <Tom_itx> i have a layout for one of those too
[02:15:03] <FinboySlick> Spec sheet says ESD protection, operates from 2.5 to 5.5v
[02:15:12] <FinboySlick> Just a transciever.
[02:15:46] <Tom_itx> most of them are
[02:18:36] <jdhNC> why DCD?
[02:18:48] <FinboySlick> GPS pps output.
[02:18:58] <FinboySlick> Linux wants it on DCD.
[02:19:14] <Tom_itx> not nearly as common as rts cts
[02:19:37] <ReadError_> soooo
[02:19:40] <ReadError_> this worked out well
[02:19:45] <ReadError_> i upgraded my macbook pro to 16gb ram
[02:19:53] <ReadError_> so now i have 2x2gb ddr3 dimms ;)
[02:20:00] <ReadError_> perfect for this microatx
[02:21:25] <FinboySlick> If I can fit it all in this, I'm in business: http://media.digikey.com/photos/Assmann%20Photos/AT-23067-R.jpg
[02:22:06] <Tom_itx> well if you can't....
[02:22:14] <Tom_itx> that's huge
[02:22:37] <FinboySlick> If it doesn't split, it'll be tricky getting all the right wires to the right places though.
[02:22:53] <Tom_itx> it does
[02:23:07] <Tom_itx> look around the screws
[02:23:15] <Tom_itx> snaps together
[02:23:41] <ReadError_> prolly not
[02:23:46] <Tom_itx> you may have to use finer pitch chips than you want to
[02:23:55] <ReadError_> since that rj-11 connector
[02:23:59] <ReadError_> or rj 45
[02:24:04] <FinboySlick> 45
[02:24:14] <ReadError_> ya too many wires for 11
[02:27:53] <FinboySlick> I don't imagine the rj45 side splitting in half so I'm still a bit curious as to how it'll open. I guess I'll just have to order one.
[02:30:27] <Tom_itx> i bet the rj45 fits in the end like the rs232 and the clamshell snaps over it. i could be wrong
[02:30:46] <Tom_itx> it just looks like it's split on the side
[02:31:23] <Tom_itx> i'll let you be the guinea pig and find out
[02:32:17] <FinboySlick> Time to put that high speed spindle to use I guess. Gonna mill my first pcb.
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[02:46:30] <r00t4rd3d> http://i.imgur.com/fISG2.jpg
[02:47:31] <Tom_itx> a kit?
[02:47:38] <FinboySlick> What's the painted yellow material?
[02:47:41] <r00t4rd3d> all skill
[02:47:44] <FinboySlick> Numinum?
[02:47:47] <r00t4rd3d> mdf
[02:48:09] <Tom_itx> assembly skill?
[02:48:26] <r00t4rd3d> no ive made it from scratch with my brains
[02:48:35] <Tom_itx> good stuff
[02:48:46] <djdelorie> brains... that explains why it's yellow...
[02:48:50] <Tom_itx> single stack steppers may be a little weak
[02:48:58] <Tom_itx> what's it for? milling?
[02:49:10] <r00t4rd3d> routing to start
[02:49:14] <r00t4rd3d> with a dremel
[02:49:17] <Tom_itx> k
[02:49:21] <Tom_itx> it should be ok for that
[02:49:31] <r00t4rd3d> i dont even know what single stack means
[02:49:33] <Tom_itx> i upated my steppers on my sherline
[02:49:36] <Tom_itx> short
[02:49:48] <djdelorie> how much side-side wiggle does it have?
[02:49:55] <r00t4rd3d> none
[02:50:18] <djdelorie> checked with a dial indicator?
[02:50:20] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
[02:50:25] <Tom_itx> those are single stack too
[02:50:34] <Tom_itx> the ones on it now are about 2x as long
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[02:51:41] <r00t4rd3d> djdelorie, no but I have a dial indicator
[02:52:01] <djdelorie> I was checking backlash on mine, discovered it had 0.01" wobble
[02:52:22] <r00t4rd3d> will be easier to measure once i get power to them
[02:52:31] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:52:37] <Tom_itx> what drivers are you using?
[02:52:42] <r00t4rd3d> tb6560
[02:53:15] <r00t4rd3d> unless you want to donate me a gecko
[02:53:28] <Tom_itx> no i just got mine
[02:53:33] <r00t4rd3d> I like new
[02:53:46] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/cnc/psu/psu_index.php
[02:53:51] <Tom_itx> hope to finish it up soon
[02:54:04] <r00t4rd3d> i just bought a power supply
[02:54:20] <r00t4rd3d> thought about making one
[02:54:26] <r00t4rd3d> then just bought one
[02:54:44] <r00t4rd3d> i work to much during the day
[02:54:50] <djdelorie> I made a fancy switcher, but found the right transformer to make a big linear instead
[02:54:59] <jdhNC> that's a lot of driver.
[02:55:14] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:55:18] <Tom_itx> i'm planning ahead
[02:55:32] <Tom_itx> 18A
[02:55:36] <Tom_itx> supply
[02:56:19] <r00t4rd3d> why did you go with the 3 seperate drivers instead of the all in one?
[02:56:26] <r00t4rd3d> i dont see why people do that
[02:56:27] <Tom_itx> surplus
[02:56:33] <Tom_itx> cheap
[02:56:36] <Tom_itx> :)
[02:56:41] <djdelorie> heh. I picked up a pair of 48v 12a switchers at a flea market last weekend. My justification was listening to all you complaining about small power supplies :-)
[02:57:04] <Tom_itx> i could get by with one with what i have now i think
[02:57:10] <Tom_itx> i know 2 would be
[02:57:11] <jdhNC> I'll trade you two 7.3A for one of the 12's
[02:57:17] <r00t4rd3d> I got a 24v 15a
[02:57:37] <r00t4rd3d> for 36 bucks
[02:57:50] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/120674032390?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[02:58:02] <jdhNC> smallish ones seem to be priced per watt.
[02:58:15] <jdhNC> 7.3A 48v is about 36
[02:58:19] <r00t4rd3d> lol its 360w too
[02:58:22] <Tom_itx> i got a 12v 45A
[02:58:49] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply3.jpg
[02:59:24] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/misc_stuff/12v_supply2.jpg
[02:59:32] <djdelorie> 12v should be easy, pretty much any ATX supply should do, yes?
[02:59:40] <Tom_itx> not 45A
[02:59:51] <Tom_itx> but yes
[03:00:49] <r00t4rd3d> i could finally meet my video card requirements
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[03:01:17] <djdelorie> I saw a lot of 12v supplies, it was an amateur radio fest so lots of 13.8v supplies
[03:01:19] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/motors/stepper10.jpg
[03:01:24] <Tom_itx> there's the new stepper
[03:01:35] <Tom_itx> quite a bit longer than the original
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[03:01:45] <r00t4rd3d> did you just solder extentions on ?
[03:01:46] <Tom_itx> a 'double stack'
[03:01:49] <Tom_itx> yes
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[03:02:28] <Tom_itx> they're on the mill now
[03:02:34] <Tom_itx> been using them a while
[03:02:37] <r00t4rd3d> i bought male/female connectors but i think i am just going to solder on extensions also
[03:02:45] <Tom_itx> the new psu and drivers is the next upgrade
[03:03:00] <Tom_itx> the minifit connectors?
[03:03:20] <Tom_itx> my original driver used those so i got some more
[03:03:33] <r00t4rd3d> http://www.ebay.com/itm/200752625794?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[03:04:01] <jdhNC> I hate those
[03:04:07] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/motors/stepper9.jpg
[03:04:08] <r00t4rd3d> lol me too
[03:04:50] <r00t4rd3d> tom what those costed?
[03:05:17] <Tom_itx> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?x=0&y=0&lang=en&site=us&KeyWords=39-01-2060
[03:05:50] <r00t4rd3d> no the motors
[03:05:52] <Tom_itx> http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA23Motor.html
[03:05:54] <Tom_itx> #3
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[03:06:24] <jdhNC> http://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-23
[03:06:27] <Tom_itx> about average for that size
[03:06:29] <r00t4rd3d> why dual shaft?
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[03:06:56] <Tom_itx> the original ones had hand wheels on them but i never used them
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[03:07:01] <Tom_itx> so i just got them that way
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[03:32:11] <ReadError_> cool nice
[03:32:19] <ReadError_> got my wireless client setup
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[04:42:16] <alex4nder> hey
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[04:43:48] <tjb1> How many chips would a low density 128mb ram stick have?
[04:44:37] <alex4nder> how many?
[04:44:40] <alex4nder> like physically?
[04:44:43] <tjb1> Yes
[04:44:47] <tjb1> Mine has 4 chips on it
[04:45:27] <tjb1> It also says 16Mx64 on it, but from what I have read that doesn't tell me if its low or high
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[04:50:52] <alex4nder> tjb1: is there room for 8 chips?
[04:51:00] <tjb1> There is room for 5
[04:51:22] <tjb1> 2 on each end of the front side and a place in the middle for one chip
[04:51:31] <tjb1> nothing on the back of the stick
[04:51:48] <alex4nder> dunno
[04:52:03] <alex4nder> why are you trying to track that down?
[04:52:08] <tjb1> I need to get more ram
[04:52:36] <alex4nder> oh, and you're trying to find something compatible?
[04:52:40] <tjb1> yes
[04:53:20] <tjb1> All it says on dell spec sheet is "PC2700 or PC3200 DDR SDRAM (non-ECC)"
[04:53:33] <alex4nder> then just get whatever
[04:53:34] <tjb1> 128, 256, 512, 1 sticks
[04:53:37] <alex4nder> unbuffered
[04:53:43] <alex4nder> non-ECC
[04:54:16] <tjb1> I do believe its low density, things I've read say 64Mx64 is low and I have 4 chips so 64/4 = 16Mx64
[04:56:49] <tjb1> Guess its too hard to throw that marking on the chip with the 40 other numbers on there...
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[06:00:57] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[06:41:14] <Jymmm> hola
[06:41:32] <alex4nder> sup Jymmm
[06:41:43] <Jymmm> fire
[06:42:16] <Jymmm> lots and lots of fire (hopefully)
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[06:57:25] <DJ9DJ> moin
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[08:37:29] <alex_joni> yu Jymmm
[08:37:34] <alex_joni> yo* even
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[08:42:17] <skorket> Does anyone have experience with grbl?
[08:45:14] <Jymmm> alex_joni: ug
[08:45:42] <Jymmm> alex_joni: i got a hawt date with a pillow so make it quick =)
[08:46:33] <alex_joni> heh
[08:46:38] <alex_joni> I'll /msg you
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[09:23:53] <Jymmm> alex_joni: you know anything about thermo sealing plastics?
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[10:15:15] <alex_joni> Jymmm: not really
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[10:38:37] <alex_joni> should we port LinuxCNC to the Shiri?
[10:39:11] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhHo6CUq4-o&feature=player_embedded
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[12:53:35] <skunkworks> that is just creepy
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[14:10:56] <joe9> i have a (MSG, depth is [#<depth>])
[14:11:07] <joe9> i am trying to print the actual depth value.
[14:11:27] <joe9> the message I get is "depth is [#<depth>]"
[14:11:48] <joe9> is there any way to get it to print the actual value held by the variable #<depth>
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[14:13:40] <joe9> got it "In the DEBUG, PRINT and LOG comments, the values of parameters in the message are expanded."
[14:15:39] <alex_joni> try without []
[14:15:57] <alex_joni> and isn't it #_<depth> ?
[14:16:10] <joe9> alex_joni: just as a fyi, it worked with DEBUG.
[14:16:30] <joe9> the manual says that MSG is not expanded with special operators
[14:16:59] <alex_joni> ok then :)
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[14:40:40] <joe9> i am trying to make some clearance holes for a #10 screw. From the docs, I can read that I need a #7 drill for a loose fit. I am wondering if I should just use a #7 drill or use an end-mill to make a hole of that size.
[14:41:54] <skunkworks> joe9: I use end mills all the time to make clearance holes.. also counter sinking
[14:42:12] <skunkworks> sometimes it is easier than finding a drill...
[14:43:16] <joe9> skunkworks: ok, thanks.
[14:46:05] <JT-Shop> my chart says #10 screw uses a #10 drill for a clearance hole
[14:46:14] <jdhNC> that woudl be too convenient.
[14:46:31] <JT-Shop> it's the only one that is that way
[14:47:10] <jdhNC> mine says tight #7, loose C
[14:47:27] <jdhNC> for a 10-32
[14:49:43] <JT-Shop> my chart must be tight
[14:50:22] <jdhNC> another says close 9, free 7
[14:51:27] <JT-Shop> only 0.0025 difference in diameter between 9 and 10
[14:52:35] <jdhNC> mine came from my $1. android app, then the web.
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[14:55:21] <skunkworks> I ususally use 3/16...
[14:55:21] <JT-Shop> mine came from the giant Kennedy chart haning on the wall...
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[14:59:25] <joe9> http://www.stanford.edu/~jwodin/holes.html i got the clearance hole size from here.
[15:00:27] <skunkworks> saw mill still works... http://electronicsam.com/images/SawMill.JPG
[15:00:34] <joe9> skunkworks: i am looking to buy some endmills. any recommendations on the common ones to have around?
[15:01:02] <joe9> i am thinking of http://www.mcmaster.com/#8977A183
[15:01:08] <skunkworks> 1/4 carbide... 1/2 carbide...
[15:01:18] <joe9> http://www.mcmaster.com/#8977A153
[15:01:22] <joe9> http://www.mcmaster.com/#8977A123
[15:01:25] <skunkworks> I usually order from enco for most things,,,
[15:02:05] <skunkworks> You can get them a lot cheaper
[15:02:05] <joe9> 1/4 and 1/2 are the end mill diameters, correct?
[15:02:13] <joe9> ok, thanks. will check out enco.
[15:04:15] <skunkworks> yes
[15:05:56] <joe9> skunkworks: do you have any urls of the end mills you order from enco?
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[15:06:15] <skunkworks> joe9: usually whatever is on sale :)
[15:06:21] <joe9> oh, ok. thanks.
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[16:14:40] <joe9> is this line wrong? G42 G01 X#<x1> F#<feed_rate> D#<tool>
[16:14:51] <joe9> i notice that it is not turning on the radius compensation.
[16:15:01] <joe9> not sure if I am missing something simple in that line.
[16:18:04] <joe9> is there any way I can print the x value which is used when G42 is in force?
[16:19:46] <archivist> are you reading the docs properly
[16:20:10] <archivist> dont mix gcodes
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[16:27:00] <Aero-Tec> hi
[16:28:33] <Aero-Tec> is there a way to display the values of variables while running Gcode?
[16:29:29] <Aero-Tec> would like a running display, not something you have to hit the OK button to get rid of each time
[16:30:25] <Aero-Tec> so no pop ups unless the popup was updated and did not block working with the GUI of EMC
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[16:38:51] <joe9> Aero-Tec: check out PRINT
[16:39:18] <joe9> Aero-Tec: no, that needs the ok button
[16:40:07] <joe9> i am using this to make a rectangle slot. http://codepad.org/mIkZAl3l
[16:41:53] <archivist> joe9, a codepad with a code pad address...wtf
[16:42:09] <joe9> I notice that when the cutter is at x1 = 0.3, actual x value = 0.2375; y1 = 1.0, actual y value = 0.9375; x = 0.7, actual x value = 0.7625 and when y = 2.0, actual y value = 2.0625
[16:42:17] <joe9> archivist: sorry about that. wrong pasted.
[16:42:25] <archivist> what makes you think line 5 is valid g code
[16:42:42] <joe9> http://codepad.org/rGYWb2RN
[16:43:15] <joe9> archivist: good one. let me double check on that. thanks.
[16:43:30] <joe9> there were no errors, so I figured it must be ok.
[16:43:39] <joe9> let me change that and try.
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[16:44:28] <Jymmm> hi andypugh
[16:44:33] <joe9> archivist: is there any way I can get a grid or something with more values in the backplot.
[16:45:13] <andypugh> joe9: A grid in the backplot was added to the dev branch a day or two ago
[16:45:17] <archivist> some are experimenting with a grid, not in the released axis
[16:45:27] <joe9> i have the big line with the start and end points of the axes.
[16:45:31] <joe9> andypugh: cool, thanks.
[16:46:40] <archivist> joe9, dou you want g0 or g1, why are you typing g01
[16:47:00] <joe9> archivist: i want g1
[16:47:14] <joe9> let me change that to G1.
[16:47:40] <andypugh> G01 seems to be used quite frequently, but I have never been clear why
[16:47:52] <archivist> why is your D1 in the middle of nowhere
[16:49:50] <joe9> archivist: D1 is the parameter to G42
[16:50:31] <archivist> I realise but after the g1!!!!
[16:50:59] <archivist> use the syntax in the manual
[16:51:09] <joe9> i changed the lines to http://codepad.org/bvzTlN2W and still it has the same offsets.
[16:52:44] <joe9> should I be switching between G42 and G41 for different lines.
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[16:52:58] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[16:53:22] <jdhNC> is there a problem with your offsets? It looks like you have a .0625 radius tool?
[16:54:17] <joe9> jdhNC: yes, that is what I have.
[16:54:27] <joe9> i am trying to draw a rectangular slot.
[16:54:40] <jdhNC> with cutter radius compensation
[16:54:43] <joe9> this is the code http://codepad.org/bvzTlN2W
[16:54:51] <joe9> yes, with cutter radius compensation.
[16:55:00] <joe9> I notice that when the cutter is at x1 = 0.3, actual x value = 0.2375; y1 = 1.0, actual y value = 0.9375; x = 0.7, actual x value = 0.7625 and when y = 2.0, actual y value = 2.0625
[16:55:08] <IchGuckLive> joe9: use heekscad
[16:55:17] <joe9> could not get it to install.
[16:55:26] <IchGuckLive> there is a postprocessor for this
[16:55:47] <IchGuckLive> joe9 witch system
[16:56:02] <joe9> IchGuckLive: linux amd processor.
[16:56:12] <IchGuckLive> 10.04
[16:56:34] <joe9> jdhNC: i probably need a G42 followed by a G41 and then a G40 to get it work correctly.
[16:56:41] <joe9> jdhNC: would you agree?
[16:56:46] <jdhNC> so you tell it to go to X0.3Y1.0 and it puts the edge of the cutter there.
[16:57:12] <IchGuckLive> joe9 do you got a dxf
[16:57:51] <IchGuckLive> or give me the edge coordinates lower left upper right
[16:58:07] <IchGuckLive> inside or outside climb or conventionell
[16:58:16] <joe9> IchGuckLive: my gcode : http://codepad.org/v0ztkjAU
[16:58:28] <jdhNC> from what I see, it is doing exactly what you told it to do.
[16:59:44] <IchGuckLive> joe9 did you got a look on our simple g-code generators on the wiki
[17:00:01] <joe9> i am trying to draw a rectangular slot of (0.3,1) (0.7,2). but, with the code there I get a slot of (0.3,1) (0.8ish,2.12)
[17:00:18] <IchGuckLive> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Simple_LinuxCNC_G-Code_Generators#Rectangular_Circular_Pocketing_Generator
[17:00:29] <joe9> i probably need a G41 too in the code.
[17:00:58] <IchGuckLive> the G42 G41 depends on inside climb outside conventionell
[17:01:27] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i tried that, but, could not get the "Write to Axis and Quit" to work.
[17:01:34] <joe9> and the "To Clipboard" did not work.
[17:01:41] <joe9> there was nothing being copied to the clipboard.
[17:01:56] <IchGuckLive> i wrote this script
[17:02:13] <IchGuckLive> witch version of axis are you running
[17:02:34] <joe9> LINUXCNC - 2.6.0~pre
[17:03:01] <joe9> how do i find the axis version?
[17:03:09] <joe9> IchGuckLive: it just says "quit" for me.
[17:03:18] <joe9> it does not have the "Write to Axis and quit".
[17:04:24] <joe9> and, it does not copy to clipboard. is there a debug version that I can try with more messages?
[17:04:47] <joe9> btw, why the gui. why not just a cli which will output the program to stdout?
[17:04:58] <Aero-Tec> so there is no running display of variables in EMC?
[17:05:42] <Aero-Tec> I am making springs and I need to know what the number of springs made is
[17:05:48] <IchGuckLive> joe9 i checked it running perfect here
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[17:06:02] <IchGuckLive> witch linux distro you got
[17:06:15] <joe9> i use a distro called crux.
[17:06:21] <IchGuckLive> my git is from tonight at linuxcnc
[17:06:57] <joe9> let me upgrade linuxcnc then. mine is atleast a month old.
[17:07:16] <IchGuckLive> thats not the case
[17:07:22] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: Which variables?
[17:07:30] <Aero-Tec> how does one monitor variables when trouble shooting gcode?
[17:07:38] <Aero-Tec> any
[17:07:55] <Aero-Tec> just need a counter to say how many springs are made
[17:08:06] <Aero-Tec> ant counter would work
[17:08:11] <Aero-Tec> any
[17:08:16] <andypugh> Permanently or temporarily?
[17:08:27] <Aero-Tec> temp for this code
[17:08:46] <Aero-Tec> perm if necessary
[17:08:57] <Aero-Tec> but temp would be better
[17:09:21] <Aero-Tec> I am using the mill to make springs
[17:09:30] <andypugh> M66 (I think) will set motion.analog-out-00, you can view that with Halscope, or longer-term make a GladeVCP panel to view it.
[17:09:45] <Aero-Tec> so it is just a temp setup when I make springs
[17:10:30] <Aero-Tec> how many digits?
[17:10:38] <Aero-Tec> need 4
[17:11:07] <Aero-Tec> 3 could work if I brake it into 2 runs
[17:11:08] <djdelorie> 12V 50A $50 : http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817341017
[17:11:31] <Aero-Tec> 2 would be a real pain
[17:12:14] <Aero-Tec> could one setup a phantom axis?
[17:12:42] <Aero-Tec> have a axis display that had no motor and move it to increase the display?
[17:13:10] <jdhNC> DJ: what does one do with a high amp 12v PSU?
[17:13:17] <andypugh> Aero-Tec: Halmeter shows 6 or more digits
[17:13:20] <Aero-Tec> how many axis will the GUI display?
[17:13:23] <djdelorie> someone was talking about it yesterday
[17:13:31] <djdelorie> i.e. the need for high-amp 12v supplies
[17:13:45] <Aero-Tec> ok will look into it
[17:13:49] <Aero-Tec> thanks
[17:14:12] <Aero-Tec> is there other outputs one can use at the same time?
[17:15:05] <Aero-Tec> like motion.analog-out-01, 02, 03?
[17:15:57] <joe9> IchGuckLive: could you paste the code that is generated with the parameters: rectangle, parallel, 0.3,1 -> 0.7,2
[17:16:07] <joe9> IchGuckLive: if you do not mind.
[17:16:22] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i am upgrading linuxcnc now to the latest git release.
[17:16:27] <IchGuckLive> i will
[17:16:31] <joe9> thanks.
[17:16:38] <IchGuckLive> cutter size
[17:17:01] <joe9> radius = 1/16 inch.
[17:17:16] <andypugh> djdelorie: Better still, have a look on eBay for Fruit Machine power supplies, typically 50A @ 35V, 20A @ 12V, 5V, 24V...
[17:17:33] <IchGuckLive> im in mm it takes 5min for putting all togetter in inch
[17:17:34] <djdelorie> it all depends on what your steppers want
[17:17:55] <djdelorie> my servos want 160v at around 8 amps, for example, but they're not getting it :-)
[17:17:58] <andypugh> Of course, I can't find them now..
[17:18:01] <joe9> IchGuckLive: oh, ok. what ever is easy for you.
[17:18:17] <djdelorie> but if you have 3.3v steppers, a 12/50 supply might be just right.
[17:18:25] <joe9> IchGuckLive: put the radius as 1mm and 3mm,1mm -> 70mm, 20mm.
[17:18:37] <joe9> IchGuckLive: i want to read/understand the code generated.
[17:18:38] <andypugh> djdelorie: That sounds easy if you are in the US. Just rectify 110V mains, straight into a cap.
[17:18:51] <djdelorie> I thought of that. I want *some* ground isolation :-)
[17:19:06] <djdelorie> I suspect the motors were designed for exactly that, with isolation on the logic side of the controller
[17:19:51] <djdelorie> an isolated CAN interface is trivial, that would be a likely candidate. Or a constant-RPM use. etc.
[17:21:56] <alex4nder> oddly enough, I built an isolated CAN transceiver carrier board last night
[17:22:20] <alex4nder> automotive is a bitch
[17:23:49] <andypugh> djdelorie: Just use optos between the PC and the drives?
[17:24:10] <andypugh> Or, run through an isolation transformer
[17:24:32] <djdelorie> I considered that, but my controllers have not only the pport interface, but also two UARTs and a CAN bus. Isolating them all would have been prohibitively expensive
[17:24:47] <djdelorie> and I wouldn't be able to debug the board with my usual logic analyzer
[17:25:16] <djdelorie> I considered isolation between the MCU and the driver, but there's five analog feeback circuits there too
[17:25:21] <ReadError_> awwww yea
[17:25:23] <Jymmm> djdelorie: "usual logic analyzer" == LED + resistor?
[17:25:27] <ReadError_> cut3d made a good toolpath i think
[17:25:47] <djdelorie> no, a $400 32-channel 500 MHz real logic analyzer
[17:26:15] <Jymmm> djdelorie: That's an expensive resistor, I hope you dont need a 4000W one =)
[17:26:24] <alex4nder> laf.
[17:26:46] <jdhNC> Read: what did you use for input to cut3d?
[17:26:56] <Jymmm> djdelorie: http://www.reopowersolutions.com/product_list/28
[17:27:34] <alex4nder> djdelorie: TI is sampling their ISO1050 isolated CAN transceiver.
[17:28:18] <djdelorie> I don't use braking resistors. The linear supply is designed for 2x the working voltage, and has excessive caps. I use regenerative braking :-)
[17:28:43] <andypugh> I have a 1:1 building-site transformer that I use for isolation when I am fiddling, but I am not that bothered about it when everything is assembled.
[17:29:04] <djdelorie> doing the isolation is easy, but the parts cost money and take up board space, whereas a simple linear supply solves all those problems and protects me when I'm debugging
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[17:29:18] <Jymmm> Man, a $500 resistor that's just nuts. And the worlds worse waster of energy! lol
[17:29:25] <djdelorie> but a light bulb!
[17:29:46] <Jymmm> djdelorie: at least with a light bulb you get light from it
[17:29:47] <ReadError_> jdhNC: STL
[17:30:01] <djdelorie> every cnc machine needs a 4000 watt blinky light :-)
[17:30:43] <Jymmm> djdelorie: But a resistor, it just sits there, doens't do anything, doesn't look cool or pretty, just a pure energy whore!
[17:31:38] <alex4nder> it'll heat your home
[17:31:51] <Jymmm> alex4nder: not very good though
[17:32:02] <Jymmm> compared to gas
[17:32:43] <Jymmm> though It seems to work for iron/steel mills
[17:33:37] <Jymmm> Man, if they could recover the radiant heat and "store" or distributed it somehow
[17:34:01] <IchGuckLive> xyuv howto is up -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYHpkH_xHVA
[17:34:12] <IchGuckLive> HD full screen
[17:34:48] <gene__> Andy- Silly pid Q. Pgain,Igain,Dgain=0.0. FF0=1 command=301, output all over the map. With all those gains at 0, where is the dither coming from
[17:34:54] <gene__> Andy- Silly pid Q. Pgain,Igain,Dgain=0.0. FF0=1 command=301, output all over the map. With all those gains at 0, where is the dither coming from?
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[17:36:07] <joe9> /ws 33
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[17:38:14] <Aero-Tec> how hard is it to add axies?
[17:38:24] <Aero-Tec> I need more axis on my mill
[17:38:32] <Aero-Tec> hardware is done
[17:38:54] <Aero-Tec> but EMC step wis will only help with setting up 4
[17:39:12] <Aero-Tec> I need 5 with more coming
[17:39:48] <Aero-Tec> and will the GUI see them and display them?
[17:40:30] <Tom_itx> just add it in the hal and ini files
[17:40:31] <Aero-Tec> I am converting over from Mach
[17:40:54] <archivist> I just edited the hal and ini when I went up to 5 axis
[17:41:00] <andypugh> The output is varying with no change to input?
[17:41:09] <andypugh> Is the error value changing?
[17:43:46] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: then just add it manuell
[17:44:16] <IchGuckLive> in the ini the Axis number XYZABCUVW x=0
[17:44:30] <IchGuckLive> in HAL ad one more stepgen
[17:44:51] <IchGuckLive> its mutch easyer then you expect
[17:45:31] <andypugh> gene__: Is the error value steady?
[17:45:40] <Aero-Tec> ok so it is easy to figure out
[17:45:48] <Aero-Tec> thanks
[17:46:28] <Aero-Tec> so would the files I am looking for be .hal and .ini?
[17:46:58] <IchGuckLive> yes there is also a advise to clone from git to the newest linuxcnc to get all the nice features we all made
[17:47:25] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: yes in the mashine name folder under config
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[17:52:15] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: GeometryAXES = 3 this number has to be 1 higher then the AXIS Geometry Axis value
[17:53:16] <IchGuckLive> so example XYZAB is your config you need here the C axis number 5
[17:53:49] <IchGuckLive> Aero-Tec: what is your geometry
[17:54:04] <IchGuckLive> witch axis are you running XY???
[17:54:38] <Aero-Tec> will have to look
[17:55:04] <IchGuckLive> not good to know the axis at the start of the config
[17:55:23] <IchGuckLive> 5Axis can also mean XYBUV
[17:55:46] <Aero-Tec> that do you mean by "what is your geometry"?
[17:56:07] <IchGuckLive> as your nick seams to get a foamcutter as here for aeroprofiling
[17:56:12] <Aero-Tec> xyzab
[17:56:39] <Aero-Tec> no fome
[17:56:41] <IchGuckLive> thats so easy
[17:56:49] <Aero-Tec> foam
[17:57:08] <Aero-Tec> mills and lathes
[17:57:44] <IchGuckLive> just copy the stepconf wizard A axis [AXIS_3] and rename it to [AXIS_4]
[17:58:10] <IchGuckLive> same in hal and cghange the stepgen number one higherv
[17:59:12] <IchGuckLive> [TRAJ] section AXES=5 COORDINATES = X Y Z A B Home add a zero
[17:59:26] <IchGuckLive> done in ini
[18:00:13] <Aero-Tec> will try it
[18:00:15] <Aero-Tec> thanks
[18:01:31] <IchGuckLive> in hal loadrt stepgen step_type=0,0,0,0,0
[18:02:46] <IchGuckLive> stepgen.4 then tot the pins you will see this
[18:03:34] <IchGuckLive> if you got -> net Apos-cmd axis.3.motor-pos-cmd => stepgen.3.position-cmd
[18:03:58] <IchGuckLive> add below net Bpos-cmd axis.4.motor-pos-cmd => stepgen.4.position-cmd
[18:04:15] <IchGuckLive> Axis 4 is your B
[18:04:34] <IchGuckLive> stepgen 4 holds all the waveforms
[18:05:04] <IchGuckLive> just walk throu the file
[18:07:35] <IchGuckLive> im missing pcw is he on holyday
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[18:12:04] <IchGuckLive> ok im off thanks for the evening nice talk B)
[18:12:31] <IchGuckLive> Thunderstorm hedding my way no grilling alowed
[18:12:42] <IchGuckLive> O.O
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[18:16:12] <gene__> Andy, no
[18:18:31] <gene__> timing the index pulses, at a command, and output of pid at 101, I am seeing about 114 rpm
[18:20:25] <gene__> Andy, that does change by much when I bring up some Pgain
[18:24:24] <gene__> The A & B pulses positions wobble by only 10% of each pulses width, but encoder.0.velocity is seeing 40% wobbles in halscope
[18:25:42] <gene__> the A/B wobble is half a rev from the index using delayed sweep
[18:34:11] <gene__> 200 ms after the index, the A pulse is consistent to within 1 ms. I can only come to the conclusion that the encoder is inventing these 30% speed variations.
[18:36:22] <gene__> I just urned pwmgen dither off, no real change
[18:36:23] <archivist> are you using a real scope or halscope
[18:38:23] <gene__> both
[18:39:48] <gene__> the rea scope is measuring the index period to determine rpms, and it delay to measure timing errors of the A pulse train anywhere up to 200ms after the index
[18:40:22] <archivist> can you hear the speed changing, have you added a mass to the spindle to damp it a bit for testing
[18:40:57] <archivist> are the opto signals clean
[18:42:16] <gene__> yes I can hear the hum of the motor changing, and a 5" 4 jaw chuck is the main mass, several pounds, the A signal is straight out of the opto's on a real 100 mhz dual trace scope
[18:43:54] <gene__> pwmgen dither is off, its output is steady at about 15% duty cycle at this speed
[18:45:23] <gene__> Under these conditions, no feedback IOW, the motor hum & rotation are smooth
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[18:49:29] <gene__> Interesting. My optos on the encoder board are not bolted down, and while its difficult to get a finger in there, I found I can reduce the error p-p by pulling outward on the front one to increase the separation. The quadrature looks good on the big scope, so I'll cross check it.
[18:51:09] <archivist> home brew encoder?
[18:52:46] <gene__> yup, next Q, which edge of the index does it use?
[18:54:27] <archivist> are the edges clean on the signal with NO noise
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[19:00:23] <gene__> absolutely
[19:01:35] <gene__> BRB, coffee cup on missing list
[19:02:10] <andypugh> gene__: Sorry, I was away.
[19:03:29] <andypugh> It's very difficult to test, but on my homebrew encoder the quadrature offset drifts a bit around the disc. It means that unless the mark-space ratio of both enocders is right, then some pulses are not counted
[19:03:36] <gene__> np Andy
[19:04:35] <gene__> its very close tp 50%
[19:06:58] <gene__> I do see that the A pulse must be seeing part of the index slot, 1 wide pulse per rev, by aout 10 wide
[19:07:05] <gene__> I do see that the A pulse must be seeing part of the index slot, 1 wide pulse per rev, by aout 10% wide
[19:07:44] <andypugh> Ah, the index isn't just a longer version of another slot?
[19:08:39] <andypugh> It might be interesting to set counter-mode, that will answer the question if it is quadrature error.
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[19:12:53] <gene__> yes and no, it extends inward from slot 0 but was cut seperately. The 3 optos are in a row, straight line, so the center one rides the index & the outer 2 furnish the A & B from the slot pattern
[19:14:41] <gene__> counter-mode=1, error gone
[19:15:04] <jdhNC> do a&b read different slots?
[19:15:24] <gene__> yes, but in the same circle
[19:17:29] <archivist> is the index too wide
[19:17:41] <archivist> relative to the normal slots
[19:19:52] <gene__> not quite the same width, pulse is about 10% wider because the gcode that carved it made the slot side face the centerline, so the outer end of the index slot is a thou, maybe 2, wider than the inner root of the main slots
[19:21:00] <gene__> Not enough room, and to move the center opto up off the board would mean I'd have to file off the outside edge of the wheel
[19:21:13] <gene__> off for clearance
[19:22:46] <gene__> Dopes running it this mode mean it only does the error update on the index pulse? That is what I am seeing in halscope
[19:23:02] <gene__> Does running it this mode mean it only does the error update on the index pulse? That is what I am seeing in halscope.
[19:24:14] <gene__> I see the magnitude of pid.0.feedback is scaled down by about a /4 too
[19:29:17] <gene__> I setp that scale to 240, setp Pgain to 5, wants to oscillate on a speed change, but 3 works
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[19:34:42] <gene__> bringing up the Igain make the error go positive
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[19:37:43] <gene__> set that scale down to 225 seems to balance that
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[19:48:45] <andypugh> Yes, in counter-mode you only see 1/4 the pulses, so the encoder scale needs to change.
[19:49:05] <andypugh> You also lose the ability to detect direction, I don't know if that matters.
[19:49:30] <andypugh> when you say "error update" what do you mean?
[19:49:51] <gene__> pid.error
[19:50:04] <andypugh> That is updated every servo-thread
[19:50:13] <gene__> ahh, encoder scale needs to be 39 then
[19:51:34] <DJ9DJ> gn8
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[19:56:03] <gene__> Ok, if I wanted to ditch the scale.1 thingy, can I set the encoder scale to .65, and get that gain of 60 back but without the time delay?
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[19:58:02] <andypugh> Eh?
[20:02:31] <andypugh> If you don't care about the onscreen speed display, you don't need the scale at all.
[20:03:49] <andypugh> You can set encoder.scale to 39, and then that gives velocity in rps. Then use the speed-command-rps signal from motion so that both command and feedback are the same. You can then either re-scale the pwmgen to an rps full-scale, or just re-tune the PID to 60x bigger numbers
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[20:11:14] <Solaris> I got lotsamoney now
[20:11:16] <Solaris> I want a CNC machine
[20:11:26] <Solaris> Shall I buy the X2 and a gecko?
[20:11:32] <Solaris> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Axminster-SIEG-X2-SuperTilt-Head-Mill-Drill-/270974353230?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f17547f4e
[20:14:46] <andypugh> Nah, you want: http://www.ebay.com/itm/120898634649
[20:14:46] <andypugh> \
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[20:15:56] <Solaris> i was thinking something in the 2000GBP price range
[20:18:05] <andypugh> Ah, OK.
[20:18:14] <andypugh> That might get you a ready-converted one.
[20:18:28] <Solaris> UK based, I can't import from America
[20:18:29] <andypugh> Heck, it would probably buy mine off of me, if I was finished with it.
[20:18:45] <Solaris> Too much customs and tax
[20:18:54] <andypugh> It's in Basildon
[20:19:12] <gene__> Well, I just found I can't set the encoder to output rpms. drives g76 out of its mind ;) So much for what seemed like a good idea :(
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[20:20:11] <andypugh> Read back..
[20:20:39] <andypugh> Leave the encoder in rps, use the rps output from motoin as the command.
[20:20:46] <andypugh> Solaris: http://www.amadeal.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Syil_X2_CNC.html
[20:20:53] <andypugh> Possibly a little smaller than you want
[20:22:13] <andypugh> gene__: YOu get that?
[20:22:31] <andypugh> (I do hope so, this is the 4th time I have suggested it in the last 24 hours)
[20:24:50] <andypugh> Solaris: You are not the only one in the UK. I am, archivist is, several others too.
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[20:25:30] <archivist> should I put my backside as my google image :)
[20:27:03] <andypugh> To show it is too narrow to be American, you mean?
[20:27:14] <archivist> but thinking of second image down http://www.bbc.co.uk/search/news/?q=vintage%20computer
[20:27:22] <jdhNC> that's a lot of money for an x2
[20:27:54] <andypugh> Yeah, it is pre-converted though. It's easy to lose track of how much a conversion costs
[20:27:58] <archivist> andypugh, I felt slim on holiday over there :)
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[20:28:25] <jdhNC> I keep trying to lose track of how much I have spent on mine.
[20:28:34] <archivist> and I was a british standard fat git at the time
[20:29:31] <Connor> Me Too! :)
[20:29:58] <Solaris> Surely all I need for a basic system is an X2 mill, 3 steppers, a gecko g550 a suitable powersupply some wire and a pc?
[20:30:13] <Connor> Honestly, I've not spent a ton.. Most went to the motors and electronics.. I've probably got $100-150 in wire, connectors and misc crap..
[20:30:30] <djdelorie> I think I've spent more on developing those controller cards than on everything else.
[20:30:30] <Connor> Solaris: Couplers
[20:30:34] <archivist> Solaris, they change the leadscrews too
[20:31:04] <Connor> Stock to make the stepper mounts.. hardware to mount them..
[20:31:26] <Connor> Misc tools to make them.. taps etc ..
[20:31:41] <jdhNC> I ended up using about 24" of Al round stock and that's it.
[20:31:46] <archivist> I spent dunno how much at the scrap yard on bits of metal for making mounts etc
[20:31:51] <jdhNC> still have all th plate
[20:32:00] <Solaris> Is the coupler to tap the rotor of the steppers onto the leadscrew?
[20:32:02] <Connor> jdhNC: Not true, you used some plastic you had for the mounts..
[20:32:28] <jdhNC> right, but I already had that for something else. $30 ft^2 delrin
[20:32:53] <Connor> every $ adds up.. If you didn't have it, you would have bought it...
[20:32:57] <archivist> Solaris, the stock manual leadscrew has too much play(end float/backlash)
[20:33:08] <jdhNC> I went to the junkyard, found tons of perfect huge stainless stock. No good mild or Al
[20:33:22] <ReadError_> hmmm
[20:33:26] <ReadError_> visualmill is pretty nice
[20:33:53] <jdhNC> ball screws and ACB's added $250
[20:34:34] <Solaris> So I want a trapezoidal thread and a ballscrew, can I use the existing X2 rails?
[20:35:18] <jdhNC> Solaris: read through Hoss's X2 stuff
[20:37:21] <andypugh> trepzoidal thread and ballscrew are two completely different things. And ballscrew is better.
[20:37:51] <andypugh> Solaris: Cheapest ballscrews in the UK are probably from Zapp, www.zappautomation.co.uk
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[20:38:12] <andypugh> You might also want to look at his stepper drives, as Geckos get very expensive if you import from the US
[20:38:14] <jdhNC> andypugh: how much is cheap?
[20:38:45] <andypugh> jdhNC: Look at the site, but about $1 / in ?
[20:39:29] <jdhNC> I paid $199us shipped for my chinese ballscrews/nuts machined
[20:39:57] <archivist> we get taxed rather a lot here
[20:40:01] <andypugh> Oooh! They have 6mm ballscrews now, how cute!
[20:42:14] <Connor> V belt or Timing belt for convert my spindle from gear to belt driven ?
[20:42:26] <andypugh> Why? Quietness?
[20:42:42] <Connor> speed and quietness
[20:43:19] <andypugh> You don't need to provide a tensioning mechanism for timing belt, if you get the centres right.
[20:43:19] <archivist> I use car v belts
[20:49:25] <Connor> So, after making a new encoder disk last night that has a index slot, and using index only.. I was able to do threading... worked good.. except I don't have the correct bit for it.. but, it hit the mark every time! :)
[20:50:12] <jdhNC> grind one
[20:50:38] <jdhNC> what were you using?
[20:50:53] <Connor> All I have to grind one with is my little benchtop grinding and it's wheel has a ding in it.
[20:53:11] <Connor> http://www.shars.com/products/gallery/3398/404-2048Main.jpg/
[20:53:25] <Connor> from that set, the closest one.
[20:54:08] <djdelorie> my set looks like this: http://www.delorie.com/photos/southbend-lathe/img_2627.html
[20:54:21] <Connor> djdelorie: ROFL
[20:54:23] <andypugh> One of those is trying to be a threading tool
[20:54:33] <gene__> Andy - took time for some lunch now trying to do hal again as you asked.
[20:54:35] <Connor> andypugh: Which one?
[20:54:41] <andypugh> The pointy one
[20:54:55] <andypugh> but djdelorie has a more _useful_ set of tools
[20:55:00] <djdelorie> anything with a 60 degree tip could be used as a threading tool
[20:55:13] <djdelorie> andypugh: it's not useful if I have no idea what they're all for
[20:55:14] <Connor> That the closest one? That's the one I was using..
[20:55:22] <andypugh> High-speed steel is perfectly good enough for anything other than industrial mass production
[20:55:44] <djdelorie> but at least I KNOW that grinding my own tools is part of the job... the existing tools make that really obvious :-)
[20:56:17] <djdelorie> some of the bigger ones appear to be ground for mouldings, no less...
[20:57:19] <andypugh> djdelorie: I see a flycutter, an internal thread chaser (i think) a travelling steady, a parting tool, a boring bar holder, a couple of QC toolpost holders, and lots of useful bits of HSS
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[20:58:36] <djdelorie> I've figured out the QC stuff, yes. The flycutter isn't that useful as there's no easy way to mount work to the sled. There are a bazillion HSS bits :-)
[20:58:50] <andypugh> The big bit in the middle of 2627 bolts ot the holes in 2628, but I assume from their numerical propinquity that you had figured that out?
[20:59:17] <djdelorie> yes
[20:59:34] <gene__> Andy - now I have lost the speed Plus and Minus buttons.
[20:59:38] <djdelorie> I need to clean out those holes and figure out the thread, and I'm missing bits on the following rest anyway. I did pick up a steady rest though
[21:00:10] <djdelorie> (that's *why* I took those two pictures, BTW ;)
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[21:00:22] <Solaris> Is anyone here familliar with "lost wax" casting?
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[21:00:38] <Solaris> http://i.imgur.com/DyZ52.jpg
[21:00:45] <Solaris> I made a latex negative of my gear
[21:00:54] <andypugh> gene__: Really? That's AXIS being too clever. It has noticed that you are not using motion.speed-command. Just net dummsig motion.spindle-command
[21:01:00] <Solaris> I tried to plaster of paris the backside of the latex but it got stuck in
[21:01:14] <Solaris> Is there another way I can make use of the latex negative and stop it wonking out of shape?
[21:01:16] <djdelorie> squishy gears!
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[21:01:38] <andypugh> Solaris: I am vaguely familiar with it, but I have never done it
[21:01:40] <Solaris> The latex is so when the wax is poured I can peel the mold off, as they are spur not bevel gears sand doesn't work, I tried
[21:01:45] <Connor> djdelorie: What's with the long bits of spiral ?
[21:02:10] * JT-Shop has to make a 1 TPI double lead thread
[21:02:14] <djdelorie> they're shavings, proof that I'm cutting correctly :-)
[21:02:30] <andypugh> Solaris: What are the gears for?
[21:02:34] <djdelorie> Solaris: sand?
[21:02:52] <djdelorie> 2669 is a single eight-foot long shaving of aluminum
[21:03:08] <JT-Shop> iirc I just have to back up my Z start point by 1/2" right
[21:03:26] <djdelorie> I picked up some 7x7/8 bolts dirt cheap at the flea market, they turn MUCH easier than the hardware store steel rod stock. I have tiny steel curlies now too :-)
[21:04:12] <gene__> motion.speed-command doesn't exist, lemme check speeeling
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[21:05:47] <gene__> No help there?
[21:05:57] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/encoder_disk1.JPG
[21:06:00] <Connor> http://www.ivdc.com/cnc/conversion/encoder_disk2.JPG
[21:06:23] <Connor> New encoder disk next to old one.. First truly automated part my CNC made..
[21:06:29] * djdelorie needs to make a 60-slot encoder to measure my lathe speed...
[21:07:24] <Connor> djdelorie: OKay, what's with the water and battery charger setup about ?
[21:07:35] <djdelorie> electrolysis rust removal
[21:07:47] <djdelorie> see http://www.delorie.com/photos/southbend-lathe/img_2544.html
[21:07:56] <djdelorie> before on right, after on left
[21:08:29] <Connor> Anything special needed ? Can't tell how you have it hooked up..
[21:08:55] <djdelorie> 1 tablespoon washing soda (sodium carbonate) per gallon, steel anode to positive, part to negative. That's it
[21:09:14] <Connor> You using the battery, or the battery charger ?
[21:09:20] <djdelorie> add a battery or capacitor in parallel to avoid any 0.7 volt "wrong way" voltage for cheap one-diode chargers
[21:10:09] <djdelorie> I had a battery handy, so the charger charges the battery (pointless, it's a dead battery, but it does the job well enough) and I use jumper cables for the hookup so I don't mess up my charger clips
[21:10:22] <djdelorie> all you really need is to run an amp or two through the part
[21:11:35] <djdelorie> I'm just following what I read online, it's a popular enough topic among antique restorers.
[21:12:32] <gene__> Andy, thats a non-starter, any way I spell it
[21:13:02] <gene__> motion.spindle-command does not exist
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[21:15:47] <gene__> I have .spindle-speed-in and .spindle-speed-out, which is it?
[21:17:51] <Solaris> I want to make loads of big gears so I can make my own recycled sky tv dish field that follows the sun and makes clean water and electricity
[21:18:16] <Solaris> Its to make lots of these: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAWLjqMiulo
[21:18:37] <djdelorie> one of my "one of these days" projects is to put an extruder head on my cnc mill and see if it can make 26" wide gears...
[21:19:37] <Solaris> Oooh yeah
[21:19:59] <Solaris> Apache helicopter gears
[21:20:03] <djdelorie> *in theory* I can do up to 26" diam by 3.5" thick. There are a lot of assumptions behind that.
[21:20:38] * djdelorie suspects shrinkage during cooling will be a huge pain
[21:20:48] <Solaris> No powercut, no overheat, no "out of oil" no stepping lsoses, etc.
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[21:21:13] <djdelorie> and helical is just as easy as straight :-)
[21:21:33] <Solaris> With my lost wax method I learned you can get around shrinkage by having four copes at the bottom at the lowest point and for drags at the top where the spout hole is
[21:21:42] <Solaris> The its the copes and drags that shrink, not the part you want
[21:22:25] <djdelorie> with extrusion, the problem is that new layers stick to the old cold layers, then shrink, so the whole part bows up a little and messes it all up
[21:22:43] <djdelorie> you have to design in shrinkage reliefs into the extrusion pattern
[21:24:48] <gene__> Ok, working again, but scales are afu. speed increments show as rps, do as way off rpms.
[21:25:35] <gene__> and its about 50 clicks to top speed of 1100, shows 200 at motion.rps
[21:26:16] <Connor> okay, so, does anyone know how to get EMC to recognize the onboard parport for the intel atom boards? I've been using a addon PCI parport card.. but, I can see the need for using the onboard one at somepoint.
[21:26:37] <djdelorie> if they have different addresses, you just put in the two addresses.
[21:26:54] <djdelorie> if they're usb-based pport emulators, you're out of luck.
[21:27:20] <Connor> Yea. I can do that with the dual-port card.. but, I can't see the other one.. It's built in pport, so, I don't think it's a USB emulator.
[21:27:27] <gene__> atom has the std address of 0x378
[21:27:51] <djdelorie> make sure your extra card isn't the *same* address, and make sure your built-in is enabled in BIOS
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[21:28:26] <Connor> It's not, addon is 0x1008 and 0x1018 or something similar..
[21:28:40] <djdelorie> so just put in 0x378 and see if it works
[21:28:45] <cei> Whenever I try and access the wiki, I get a 403 Forbidden error. Am I unique in this?
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[21:30:30] <djdelorie> what exact url ?
[21:30:57] <cei> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org or /any/ link to it
[21:31:21] <djdelorie> 403 for me too
[21:31:41] <andypugh> gene__: spindle-speed-out
[21:31:42] <djdelorie> wiki is broken
[21:32:27] <andypugh> broken here too
[21:32:52] <cei> nice to know its not just me :)
[21:33:42] <gene__> as in "net dumbsig spindle-speed-out"
[21:33:47] <Keknom> same here
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[21:34:14] <Keknom> also is machining 7050, and 7075 aluminum much diffirent from 2024?
[21:35:43] <gene__> Ok, did that, large rpms error, with an FF0=60
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[21:37:19] <gene__> s250 gives 4.166667 in rps, gets 2.64
[21:38:29] <gene__> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/config/emc2hal.html is working fine here
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[21:54:17] <andypugh> gene__: Did you change the pwm scale, or not?
[21:55:00] <andypugh> Anyway, some value of FF0 should make it work OK..
[21:57:48] <gene__> pwm.scale=1100 in rpms
[21:59:51] <gene__> I think my feedback is scaled wrong atm, so i made a printout, easier to trace. with encoder.scale=slots (39), then encoder.velocity is rps, right?
[22:01:43] <andypugh> I think so. If you are in counter mode. Did that work better, or not?
[22:03:08] <gene__> for a few, till I tried to commit it all to the .hal
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[22:10:26] <gene__> s300, spindle-rps=5, ah scale.1.gain for feedback was still 60, 1.0 looks a lot better
[22:11:05] <gene__> And I can get rid of the time lag of that scale then, brb
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[22:18:00] <gene__> Done, speeds off some
[22:19:26] <gene__> pid.0.command=5 pid.0.feedback=5.4 on average pid.0.output s/b 300 is 298 average
[22:20:03] <gene__> pid.error=-.4 average
[22:21:35] <gene__> and I'm getting about 5.44 rps average from the index pulse spacing
[22:23:49] <andypugh> Sounds good, put some P and I in, and it should sort itself out
[22:23:55] <gene__> so I'll clean off the end of my rod & try another thread
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[22:31:00] <andypugh> A bit of a rarity: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/290705864050
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[22:51:27] <gene__> fucking touch off on mthe wrong axis just ate me again, damn this is getting old
[22:51:51] <JT-Shop> did you make the pyvcp touch off buttons?
[22:52:52] <gene__> nop, haven't seen the code
[22:52:56] <JT-Shop> stop making me look at flea bay before I buy something
[22:53:21] <JT-Shop> must have been someone else on the mailing list asking for it
[22:53:28] <gene__> what I want is an absolute lock on z that has to be manuallo unlocked to adjust it
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[22:54:44] * JT-Shop goes back to making a worm
[22:56:59] <jdhNC> someone here made the pyvcp button. I made the same mistake twice last night.
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[22:59:47] <JT-Shop> pyvcp button for touch off Z?
[23:00:05] <cradek> I've learned to read that window, every time, before hitting enter
[23:00:24] <cradek> it says the axis, "to workpiece"/"to fixture", and radius or diameter if lathe x
[23:00:42] <jdhNC> JT: right.
[23:00:43] <JT-Shop> what I forget to to is change the radio selection then only look at the words and then don't read them
[23:00:50] <JT-Shop> yea, that be mee
[23:00:57] <cradek> any of those things can be a screwup, but it SAYS everything
[23:01:17] <JT-Shop> anyway the touch off button makes it a one mouse click deal for me...
[23:01:25] <jdhNC> oh, you are supposed to read them?
[23:01:52] <cradek> well if you want to be sure you're doing the right thing, it's good to do
[23:01:56] <JT-Shop> only until your fingers deveope their own mind
[23:02:16] <jdhNC> a good part of what I do at work is making it easy for people to do the right thing
[23:02:31] <cradek> sounds hard
[23:02:38] <jdhNC> yep
[23:02:59] <jdhNC> though the hardest part is being forced to attend Human Performance training.
[23:09:45] <JT-Shop> hmm I've got some 18-20 gauge sheet metal somewhere around here for the worm
[23:11:08] <andypugh> cradek: Somebody suggested having to select which axis and what, with it defaulting to "nothing". I have some sympathy with the idea. As a bonus, you could choose to zero all axes in all systems, and the tool table, if you had taken leave of your senses.
[23:11:18] <djdelorie> separate buttons?
[23:11:46] <andypugh> jdhNC: They assess how good your performance at being human is?
[23:11:48] <cradek> adding lots of mouse clicks is an awful solution
[23:12:07] <andypugh> cradek: We aren't all as smart as you :-)
[23:12:17] <cradek> I use the keyboard shortcuts exclusively
[23:12:23] <andypugh> See!
[23:12:29] <cradek> it's a bug in AXIS if you must use the mouse for something
[23:12:40] <jdhNC> andypugh: mostly covering (repeatedly) that people are fallible and if you expect them to do the correct thing every time you are screwed.
[23:13:17] <andypugh> cradek: http://clock.msurma.net/
[23:13:20] <cradek> to touch off X, hit X, [End], type your value, READ THE SCREEN, hit return
[23:13:52] <cradek> if you want to always select the axis before you touch off, then do that
[23:13:59] <andypugh> My keyboard has no "END". More troublesomely, it has no "Ctrl"
[23:14:08] <cradek> then it's defective
[23:14:08] <jdhNC> you need a new keyboard
[23:14:34] <cradek> andypugh: I just get a weird error
[23:14:43] <andypugh> It's a stainless steel "Kiosk" keyboard, and I think they decided "Ctrl" was dangerous.
[23:14:43] <cradek> "Error #1065"
[23:15:00] <djdelorie> without ctrl, you can't do ctrl-alt-delete
[23:15:09] <andypugh> cradek: With that web site?
[23:15:51] <andypugh> cradek: Maybe http://esquire.ru/clock ?
[23:17:14] <andypugh> Basically a 7-segment LED clock, done with 6' planks, bolts, ladders and a bunch of people over 24 hours.
[23:17:48] <cradek> ah, I've seen a little clip of it, but I've never seen it tell the right time
[23:18:00] <gene__> I just made a beautiful thread, and found another gotcha in G76
[23:18:17] <andypugh> It might only catch 8 time zones
[23:19:53] <gene__> If you have a following move back to the start position, that move starts and move about .1" before X has backed away from the threads! Moral, in your G76 wrapper, after the G76, do the x move first, then the Z.
[23:22:54] <JT-Shop> it should end at the drive line which should clear the threads
[23:25:20] <tjb1> ethernet wire does not hold up well to soldering
[23:25:39] <andypugh> There are two things about G76 which are a little wierd. There is that initial in-and out, which I think was Cradek's little joke to give us palpitations, and the fact that that return pass has a taper, so that you tend to catch the back of the tool threading tight bores.
[23:25:40] <jdhNC> I soldered some cat5 parts on to an IR sensor last night.
[23:27:45] <JT-Shop> I wondered what that dance move was just before the thread starts
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[23:28:09] <tjb1> I'm soldering up a rgb lcd
[23:28:17] <JT-Shop> I never noticed the taper
[23:28:49] <JT-Shop> crap I guess I'll beat the parts out of some 16 ga stock...
[23:30:53] <Tom_itx> what's a good gage to use for an enclosure?
[23:30:57] <andypugh> JT-Shop: The taper is so that the X-infeed at the start of the thread is always the same. Personally I think that is unecessary, as X stops dead anyway prior to threading. (In fact both axes do, waiting for the index).
[23:31:02] <Tom_itx> i may end up making one
[23:31:08] <andypugh> Tom_itx: 1/4"
[23:31:22] <Tom_itx> i'm not planning to shoot at it
[23:31:30] <andypugh> Maybe 1/2" for things more than 12" cube.
[23:31:58] <andypugh> Ah, you should have said, I assumed you were American, so needed to be proof against common firearms.
[23:32:30] <Tom_itx> i figured around 18 or 20 ga maybe
[23:32:55] <Tom_itx> what are pc cases in general?
[23:33:03] <djdelorie> "flimsy"
[23:33:12] <andypugh> You can probably find specs for what the likes of Rittal use at various sizes
[23:34:53] <gene__> Andy, I have noticed an occasional small move inward during the retrace while it is mid run, and the backout at the end of the cut seems to have about a 2 thou overshoot, the handle comes to a stop but turns back inward about 10 degrees
[23:35:31] <skunkKandT> gene__: you are using software stepgen - right?
[23:35:37] <alex_joni> anyone speaking regex ?
[23:35:53] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Not easy to tell directly, but a Rittal 400x400x250 is 13kg
[23:36:08] <gene__> but te backout when G67 is done is not sufficient to clear the threads if you have a combined move back to the origin after the G76, so they must be separated.
[23:36:10] <djdelorie> alex_joni: yes
[23:36:18] <skunkKandT> Try upping you stepgen max accelleration.. It should be about 20% higher - but try maybe 50%
[23:36:25] <gene__> gah G67 s/bv G76
[23:36:37] <skunkKandT> (than your axis accelleration)
[23:36:53] <andypugh> gene__: G76 ought to stop back where it started.
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[23:38:17] <skunkKandT> It has been a long time since I have seen it - but I have seen an axis overshot when the stepgen acceleration is set too close to the actual axis max acceleration
[23:39:18] <andypugh> Tom_itx: So, thats 3.6kg.m^2
[23:39:57] <andypugh> 8kg.m^3...
[23:40:22] <andypugh> ~Err, 8000 that is
[23:41:10] <Tom_itx> mine probably doesn't need to be as heavy as a normal industrial enclosure
[23:42:10] <Tom_itx> and i'll have to use something i have available as well
[23:42:33] <Tom_itx> we have a decent aluminum as well as iron scrap yard here
[23:42:58] <Tom_itx> the iron yard doesn't usually have alot of sheet though
[23:43:59] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/patio/patio22.jpg
[23:44:09] <Tom_itx> i drug that nice i beam home under the s10 :D
[23:44:17] <Tom_itx> as well as the posts
[23:44:34] <andypugh> Tom_itx: I am getting 2.2.. thickness for that size of industrial cabinet
[23:44:45] <Tom_itx> mm i presume?
[23:45:01] <Tom_itx> that's rather thick for my needs i think
[23:45:11] <Tom_itx> sounds about right though
[23:45:13] <andypugh> Yes
[23:45:42] <andypugh> What size are you looking at?
[23:45:55] <Tom_itx> box size?
[23:45:57] <andypugh> Yes
[23:46:12] <Tom_itx> i considered an electrical pannel but they're not deep enough
[23:46:31] <Tom_itx> something around 18x24x 6 or 8" deep
[23:47:24] <Tom_itx> the aluminum surplus has some nice stamped boxes but they have no front
[23:47:36] <Tom_itx> i used a smaller one of those on my pendant
[23:47:40] <djdelorie> two electrical panels? ;-)
[23:48:23] <Tom_itx> i'll keep my eye out for something
[23:48:35] <Tom_itx> maybe a mains switch or something may be deeper
[23:48:48] <Tom_itx> or a large starter box
[23:49:19] <djdelorie> sounds about the same size as a 4U enclosure or full tower PC case
[23:49:29] <Tom_itx> close
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[23:49:54] <Tom_itx> i'd like a front access hinged door though
[23:50:43] <jdhNC> I was planning on putting my drives/PS/daughterboards in an old PC chassis. By the time I drilled all the cheap rivets out, the case didn't have much left as a case.
[23:50:52] <andypugh> Tom_itx: http://www.ebay.com/itm/400296596662
[23:51:51] <andypugh> There may be cheaper, but the search was polluted by plccentre and their no-picture, just the part number thing.
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[23:52:49] <Tom_itx> yeah something like that would be ok
[23:52:55] <jdhNC> I hate plccenter
[23:53:10] <Tom_itx> i gotta lay stuff out and make sure what size i'm after
[23:55:09] <andypugh> I can't search ebay US by "cheapest". It makes me include postage, which massively distorts things as many items are $20 + $250 shipping
[23:55:32] <Tom_itx> yeah i can do the footwork
[23:56:37] <andypugh> For example this nice 24 x 24 x 8 cabinet is $125 + $686 shipping. http://www.ebay.com/itm/230781734143
[23:56:40] <jdhNC> I offered them $75 for that case.
[23:57:37] <andypugh> Actually, that last one is nice, even including DIN rail and panduit to make Jymmm happy
[23:57:53] <Tom_itx> we're all about that :D
[23:58:11] <jdhNC> I bought some panduit from McMaster last week. THey shipped one piece in a 5"x8ft tube
[23:58:31] <Tom_itx> extra shipping charge for the long package?
[23:58:57] <jdhNC> yeah, they shipped it alone. $19 for the panduit, $19 for shipping. Should have gotten two
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[23:59:00] <andypugh> Panduit is horrible, learn harness lacing :-)