#emc | Logs for 2011-12-29

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[00:34:34] <Ekkeri> PCW, about that 7I52 -> 52S conversion.. so I need to remove those pull-up & pull-down resistor networks (RNxx) and all six 150ohm resistors between RX-lines? how about W12 jumper? would it be easier to you to take a pic from 7I52S between P2 & P3? :)
[00:41:34] <PCW> NO those are part of the encoder inputs
[00:41:49] <PCW> wrong section of card
[00:43:43] <Ekkeri> P4 & P5 are encoders..
[00:44:38] <Ekkeri> COM3-5 is P2 and COM0-2 P4 in my card.. ENC3-5 P4, ENC0-2 P5
[00:45:05] <PCW> No you are right
[00:45:16] <PCW> W12 is encoder related
[00:45:27] <Ekkeri> COM0-2 P3 I mean..
[00:45:50] <Ekkeri> damn.. W16
[00:46:47] <Ekkeri> it's ENCD 3.3V enable for MAX3094
[00:47:27] <Ekkeri> and I couldn't find any connection between lower chip places.. just don't know why those even exists :)
[00:47:54] <PCW> no need the receive chips will be gone so its a no-op
[00:48:08] <PCW> (W16 I mean)
[00:48:10] <Ekkeri> those.. I mean it - W16
[00:48:26] <Ekkeri> yup
[00:48:55] <Ekkeri> how about those six 150ohm? all off?
[00:50:03] <Ekkeri> well, can't see those in the schema, so probably
[00:50:26] <Ekkeri> I think those were the 6 resistors you mentioned yesterday
[00:51:17] <PCW> so remove RN5,RN6,RN11,RN12,R13,R20,R21,R34,R35,U5,U12
[00:51:19] <PCW> add U2,U11
[00:51:20] <Ekkeri> but there are also those RN-networks which needs to be removed
[00:52:57] <Ekkeri> in my board there is 2 U5 and lowest is U15, but it seems to be clear now, thanks
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[00:57:53] <Ekkeri> just need to find some white paint so I can add S to the silkscreen ;)
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[01:13:37] <elmo40> is there a way to get a servo working with computer parts? or do I need the servo driver boards from the manufacturer?
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[01:51:49] <A2Sheds> elmo40: you'll need a servo amp to drive the motor, an AC servo is even more complicated than a DC servo
[01:53:14] <A2Sheds> a really small DC servo could be driven by a parallel port the way some old crude sound drivers worked
[01:54:21] <A2Sheds> but if it's a servo you need to read encoder info, we used to read quadrature on slow motors by polling the PP
[01:54:32] <A2Sheds> really slow
[02:09:44] <elmo40> hrmm
[02:11:40] <Ekkeri> elmo40, what are you trying to do with it?
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[02:17:34] <elmo40> well, I have one of these servos: Fanuc Beta1/3000 http://qurl.org/0K1 (online sales) http://qurl.org/1K1 (fanuc pdf)
[02:17:46] <elmo40> id like to use it on my lathe as the Z-axis
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[02:18:09] <elmo40> but it will be a mixture of servo and stepper as I will use a large stepper for the X-axis
[02:19:00] <elmo40> plus... I have an encoder for the spindle that I want to connect so I can do threading (and in the future live tooling c-axis cutting) :)
[02:19:11] <elmo40> ambitious, but that's ok
[02:20:24] <elmo40> it is an AC servo... more complicated, I take it
[02:20:48] <elmo40> so I will have to get the servo amp and rig it to the computer, eh?
[02:24:11] <elmo40> it does need 3-phase, but only 144V @ 200Hz
[02:24:40] <elmo40> I would assume the servo amp could make that with standard 220V input? (fingers crossed...)
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[03:08:06] <A2Sheds> elmo40: you can do this all with mesa boards FPGA card + 7i33 for the servo control + 8i20 3-phase servo amp
[03:10:21] <elmo40> I won't need the Fanuc servo amp?
[03:10:45] <A2Sheds> wiring will be easier with the fanuc servo amp
[03:11:21] <A2Sheds> the 7i33 has encoder inputs and analog 0-10V for the servo amp
[03:12:25] <A2Sheds> then you'll just need a stepper driver
[03:12:36] <A2Sheds> for the other axis
[03:13:05] <elmo40> im good for the stepper. just didn't know how to incorporate the servo :)
[03:13:13] <elmo40> can't wait to get those cards
[03:13:51] <A2Sheds> I just did one with 2 parker servo amps and motors off (1) 7i33
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[03:15:07] <A2Sheds> tuning was a snap after getting a new encoder, one of the integrated motor encoders was bad
[03:15:19] <A2Sheds> that was fun
[03:16:33] <elmo40> this 8I20 2200W 3-phase amp is what I should get? http://www.mesanet.com/motioncardinfo.html (scroll down a bit)
[03:16:45] <elmo40> and this 7I33 Quad Analog card? http://www.mesanet.com/aiodaughter.html
[03:17:35] <A2Sheds> the 8i20 is a servo amp, check with PCW if a smaller device might work
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[03:18:18] <A2Sheds> I don't think they have another ac servo amp though
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[03:18:49] <elmo40> not worried about a smaller device. expansion is in the works
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[03:19:35] <A2Sheds> 8i20 is only $239ea, whats the price for the fanuc amp? $800?
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[03:20:51] <A2Sheds> maybe even $2K
[03:21:47] <A2Sheds> http://www.cnc-shopping.co.uk/fanuc-servo-amplifier-c-series-e-series-a06b-6066-6070-c-125.html
[03:21:58] <elmo40> ya, too much :p
[03:22:24] <elmo40> its not like I have a spindle servo ;) I don't want to spend that kind of money
[03:22:31] <A2Sheds> 7i33 is for quadrature encoders
[03:22:41] <A2Sheds> A B + index
[03:24:50] <elmo40> excellent
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[03:24:59] <elmo40> now, about wiring... any online tutorials lying around?
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[03:48:27] <clytle374> did this do what I was trying to do? git checkout -b v2.5_branch origin/v2.5_branch
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[03:55:10] <elmo40> A2Sheds: for what you mentioned to me, are you talking about the 5I22 FPGA card?
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[05:44:31] <automata> morning'
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[05:49:00] <Ekkeri> elmo40, http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware there is some info about (supported) Mesa cards
[05:49:35] <Ekkeri> elmo40, or http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Mesa_Cards
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[06:07:35] <automata> I am using a mesa 7i43 card to drive 6 steppers. I want to have analog (0-10V) spindle control.. is there a card that can do that??
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[06:12:34] <clytle374> 7I33 will
[06:12:50] <automata> ok
[06:14:00] <clytle374> hold on
[06:15:03] <clytle374> Sorry, now I'm not sure... too tired and getting numbers confused
[06:15:51] <Ekkeri> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Analog_Spindle_Speed_Control
[06:17:22] <clytle374> it's the 7i43 that might be a problem. But the mesa site says it works with the 7 series daughter cards
[06:18:52] <Ekkeri> hopefully I can get modbus to work so I don't need similar card :)
[06:21:03] <clytle374> looking into modbus. I would like to use it to read errors from the amps and drives
[06:21:15] <clytle374> not sure that is possiable
[06:21:32] <automata> I would love to do modbus... but i read that EMC@ still does nto support a modbus master!!
[06:21:41] <automata> EMC2
[06:22:55] <clytle374> I don't know enough about modbus to guess at this point. trying to figure out the ladder
[06:23:38] <automata> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?VFD_Modbus says that Classic ladder has modbus built in
[06:23:48] <clytle374> mostly the sequential stuff, for tool changers
[06:24:14] <clytle374> I'm used to g-code macros doing it
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[06:25:19] <clytle374> Not to say the ladder wasn't heavily involved.
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[06:27:27] <automata> clytle374: 7i33 will do the Job... But @ $70 for the card (albeit it has 4 channel analog servo interface too which I will not be using), it is in the ball park of the Fuji Frenic VFD I will be using!!!
[06:28:25] <automata> Also the Frenic has a nifty little modbus adapter which I have used in the past with an Arm7 controller!!!
[06:28:37] <Ekkeri> http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/EMC2/modbus/ there's some info
[06:28:53] <clytle374> You could use a encoder input for taping
[06:30:29] <clytle374> thanks, that could be exactly what I'm thinking about
[06:31:33] <Ekkeri> those first two links should be pretty helpful
[06:31:42] <Ekkeri> not sure which one is better
[06:32:02] <Ekkeri> I just ordered rs232<->rs485 adapter and have no glue about rs485 stuff :)
[06:32:50] <clytle374> iirc, it is just a current signalled 232
[06:35:13] <Ekkeri> "luckily" my machine is in pieces and I don't have belt pulleys for the spindle so I'm not in a hurry
[06:35:15] <Eartaker> rs485 is MODBUS
[06:35:37] <Eartaker> you can use it to control all kinds of stuff
[06:36:00] <Eartaker> most DIY CNC guys use it to control the spindle
[06:36:01] <Ekkeri> I was thinking to put my cnc-pc back together and start to learn this emc2 & mesa -stuff
[06:36:17] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, most? are you serious? :)
[06:36:26] <Eartaker> most that use it
[06:37:00] <Eartaker> if you are Dy CNC and your using modbus then 99% of the time is for spindle
[06:37:02] <Eartaker> diy
[06:37:27] <clytle374> Wouldn't Modbus uses rs485 be a more accurate description?
[06:37:38] <Eartaker> yeah
[06:37:43] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, yep, now I'm following
[06:39:00] <clytle374> we used 485 adapters for DNC connections to handle noise on long cable runs
[06:39:40] <Eartaker> I have no need for 485... I just have a 3 axis mill with a controlled spindle
[06:40:30] <Eartaker> you guys ever use the PMDX boards?
[06:40:37] <clytle374> Not much need if you can run netowrking
[06:40:45] <clytle374> no
[06:44:08] <clytle374> 2am, I gotta sleep....
[06:44:10] <automata> rs485 is not MODBUS
[06:44:44] <automata> RS485 is a physical layer protocol while modbus is in the top three layers (OSI 7 layer model)
[06:46:18] <automata> RS485 is used with MODBUS for increasing the distance of the wiring... rs485 technically supports 1.2 Km cable whereas RS232 will travel generally for less than 5m
[06:46:35] <Eartaker> automata, have a networking background?
[06:47:13] <automata> Ph.D. in EE with emphasis on Robotics and Control systems
[06:47:18] <Eartaker> nice
[06:47:18] <Ekkeri> rs232 would be enough for me, but vfd have rs485 connection, so no luck :)
[06:47:31] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, how's your zx45?
[06:47:52] <Eartaker> I have never heard of anyone reference the OSI model that has not worked with networking
[06:48:18] <automata> RS232 will generally be enough for most CNC spindle applications.. but my problem is the VFD I am planning to use (Fuji Frenic mini) supports only RS485 + MODBUS RTU
[06:48:19] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, its good... I cleaned it up tonight It was covered in oil
[06:49:39] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, yeah.. I'm back with mine after +6 month break :)
[06:49:50] <clytle374> yep going to sleep. I was thinking rs422. good night all
[06:49:54] <Ekkeri> next some wiring, but still need to cut few parts before it
[06:50:00] <Eartaker> I tore the Z apart trying to find the source of my backlash but no luck.... still have .006'
[06:50:05] <Eartaker> .006"
[06:50:10] <automata> So I plan to get a cheap 232 to 485 convertor
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[06:50:27] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, nice
[06:50:30] <Ekkeri> automata, yep, I ordered one from the ebay yesterday
[06:50:45] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, do you have a thread on cnczone?
[06:50:58] <automata> can you point out which one and what was the cost?
[06:51:20] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, yup.. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/120917-copycat_rf45_clone.html
[06:51:58] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, nice.. I missed it somehow
[06:52:01] <Ekkeri> automata, I decided to try this one, pretty expensive huh? http://www.ebay.com/itm/260758890393?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649
[06:53:32] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, now that im looking at it I remember your build now =]
[06:53:34] <automata> Damn!! 3 bucks for that thing!!! Ha
[06:53:52] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, what do you have left to do?
[06:53:58] <automata> alas No shipping to India!!
[06:54:05] <Ekkeri> automata, yep :D
[06:54:20] <Eartaker> automata, you should talk to Theos in #diycnc
[06:54:25] <Eartaker> he is in india
[06:54:49] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, well.. mostly wiring to get movement, then pulleys for the spindle and motormounts
[06:54:52] <automata> Just joined that channel...
[06:55:05] <Eartaker> =]
[06:55:11] <Ekkeri> Eartaker, those pulleys were the thing that pulled me of from this
[06:55:26] <Eartaker> how so?
[06:56:18] <Ekkeri> my friend who has a lathe don't have a proper tool for center hole, and I asked from local cnc shop and the cost was a bit too high :)
[06:56:34] <Eartaker> pulley for spindle or axis?
[06:57:03] <Ekkeri> spindle
[06:57:17] <Eartaker> all you need is a boring bar
[06:58:13] <Ekkeri> they both were near 700$ so I have been waiting my friend to buy a proper boring bar :)
[06:58:44] <Eartaker> holy hell....
[06:58:52] <Ekkeri> yep :D
[06:59:04] <Eartaker> dude... I made my boring bar that I used to make mine
[06:59:16] <Eartaker> it hols a piece of hss
[06:59:21] <Eartaker> holds
[07:00:35] <Eartaker> I reall yhavnt been machining alything the past 2 months... I started an indoor garden and it has been my main project for the winter
[07:00:36] <Ekkeri> I think my friend have been looking some Mitsubishi dimple boring bar, but have always found other stuff to buy before it :)
[07:01:07] <Ekkeri> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClrpypIJ3Ns nice narrator..
[07:02:13] <Eartaker> oh nice
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[07:02:23] <Eartaker> but you can get it made with a simple one
[07:03:02] <Eartaker> Ekkeri, this is what I have been doing http://thehorticulture.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=2
[07:03:54] <Ekkeri> nice.. I have been building a led lamp for plants, but it's also a lifetime project :)
[07:04:43] <Ekkeri> I have also grown ~40 different chilis few years ago
[07:05:03] <Ekkeri> but haven't have space for them again until now
[07:05:07] <Eartaker> nice
[07:05:18] <Eartaker> my Bhut Jolokia is flowering now
[07:06:16] <Eartaker> im just using a 400W MH 6500K with 2 2700K CFL's
[07:08:29] <Ekkeri> no SON for flowering?
[07:09:16] <Ekkeri> how fast spindle do you have btw?
[07:10:29] <Eartaker> my spindle is 7k
[07:11:58] <Ekkeri> ok
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[07:52:16] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[10:28:03] <Mjolinor> I want to test my spindle speeds so I am reading hte G code emc pages. From what I can see I jsut need: S 1000, M3, G4 10, M5
[10:28:26] <Mjolinor> that will start the spindle at 10000 rpm for 10 seconds then stop it, once instruciton per line
[10:28:30] <Mjolinor> is that right?
[10:29:38] <Mjolinor> there is no "start G code" and "stop G code" or anything, jsut those ina text file and open in EMC
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[10:37:31] <Mjolinor> well that dosnt work :(
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[11:12:56] <jthornton> Mjolinor: are you running the g code in a file or the mdi window?
[11:15:44] <Mjolinor> in a file
[11:15:51] <Mjolinor> I sorted it I htink :)
[11:16:02] <jthornton> forgot the M2?
[11:16:42] <jthornton> and the P
[11:16:53] <Mjolinor> nope, it's the format, the emc page doesnt give any examples
[11:16:57] <Mjolinor> yup
[11:17:02] <Mjolinor> g4 p500
[11:17:05] <Mjolinor> that works
[11:17:16] <Mjolinor> g4 500 doesnt, g4 p 500 doesnt
[11:17:17] <jthornton> examples for G4?
[11:17:24] <Mjolinor> examples for any of it
[11:17:36] <Mjolinor> there are sample fiels that work but no explanations of things
[11:19:29] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html
[11:19:37] <jthornton> how does that page look
[11:19:50] <Mjolinor> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html
[11:19:55] <Mjolinor> thats the page I was suing
[11:21:08] <Mjolinor> see its not clear, if oyu look at hte g4 part
[11:21:15] <Mjolinor> it says G4 P-
[11:21:29] <Mjolinor> not G4 P(float)
[11:21:36] <jthornton> did you read the first part
[11:21:51] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_conventions
[11:22:36] <Mjolinor> i did now :)
[11:22:44] <Mjolinor> it si the same at the top of the page I was reading
[11:22:54] <Mjolinor> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_main.html
[11:23:47] <jthornton> so if you skip the conventions paragraph then the rest of the g code doc is not intuitive?
[11:23:49] <Mjolinor> however hard I find it there is no denying that the documentation for EMC is way better than the documentation for any other Linux software
[11:24:41] <Mjolinor> its jsut that on pages like that people do not start at the top and read down like they would a book
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[11:24:58] <jthornton> yes, I agree
[11:25:13] <jthornton> would G4 Pn be more intuitive to you?
[11:25:14] <Mjolinor> that is what the internet has taught us, google for what you need, find the codes that are relevant, google for those codes and hope oyu get soem examples, if not then try to break it down your self
[11:25:26] <Mjolinor> but you cant google for that first paragraph
[11:25:47] <Mjolinor> it is not a solvable problem :)
[11:26:38] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g80_cancel_modal_motion_a_id_sec_g80_cancel_modal_a
[11:26:49] <jthornton> take a look at that link
[11:27:13] <Mjolinor> thats good
[11:27:31] <Mjolinor> short length of G code adn an explanation at the side of each instruction
[11:27:45] <Mjolinor> assuming you knwo what a canned cycle is :)
[11:28:20] <jthornton> you might have to scroll up a bit
[11:29:30] <Mjolinor> it really is a hige can of worms trying to document for people who have 0 knowledge adn for people that CNC for a living, people who know linux and people who don't
[11:30:33] <Mjolinor> you knwo I have been using linux since about 1994 and it still astounds me that people will put this sort of effort in jsut because they want to
[11:30:48] <Mjolinor> 1994, gese Im an old git
[11:31:03] <jthornton> lol
[11:33:18] <jthornton> it's simple enough for me to add examples of each g code like the G80 example
[11:34:28] <jthornton> I just pushed one for G0 http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g0_rapid_motion_a_id_sec_g0_rapid_a
[11:34:39] <jthornton> it will take about 30 minutes to show up I think
[11:35:59] <Mjolinor> it probaly isn't necessary, the proof is in the fact that from nothing to solved was only maybe 15 minutes
[11:36:09] <Mjolinor> so personally I owuld consider it OK
[11:37:06] <Mjolinor> and adding things that most people don't need jsut makes it harder :)
[11:41:29] <jthornton> ok, look at the link now for G0
[11:42:01] <Mjolinor> tis good
[11:42:11] <Mjolinor> but a lot of work to do all of tehm
[11:42:37] <jthornton> but that is what I get paid the big bucks for :)
[11:43:40] <archivist> a comment, seems to assume absolute mode
[11:44:04] <Mjolinor> it sure does
[11:44:09] <Mjolinor> I thougth that was what it was
[11:44:30] <jthornton> good catch
[11:44:47] <Mjolinor> is it relative?
[11:45:00] <archivist> depends what is in force
[11:45:10] <jthornton> yep, I can make that clear
[11:45:17] <Mjolinor> OK, enough, dont want my brain baking this early in the day
[11:45:22] <Mjolinor> I haven't got that far yet
[11:45:33] * archivist turns up the heat
[11:45:43] * Mjolinor faints
[11:46:28] <archivist> Mjolinor, someone reading that and then my code would have been confused
[11:47:01] <Mjolinor> anyone learning this is in a pemanent state of confusion
[11:47:26] <Mjolinor> haven#t been this confused since I tried to learn Pascal
[11:48:26] <archivist> pascal is has a lovely syntax in comparison
[11:49:10] <Mjolinor> I never made friends with any high level languages
[11:49:39] <Mjolinor> half the stuff I am coming across here I would find so much easier and quicker to do by programming aPIC inassembler
[11:50:05] <archivist> gcode is closer to a bad assembler language
[11:50:10] <Mjolinor> :)
[11:51:04] <archivist> I have used many languages and reserve most hate for OOP
[11:51:42] <archivist> and xlst possibly, awk is trivial in comparison
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[11:52:01] <Mjolinor> any programming I do is in the same fashion, all like assembler, one long programme
[11:52:15] <Mjolinor> gets a bit stupid when it gets over 1000 lines :)
[11:52:44] <archivist> Im used to linking assembler
[11:53:14] <Mjolinor> its odd that, I used to use relocatable code adn link and all that stuff but I dont anymore
[11:53:43] <Mjolinor> probaly becasue when you get to that level of complexity it is easier to switch to C
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[12:09:32] <Mjolinor> what is the difference between pwmgen.N.min-dc and pwmgen.N.offset
[12:09:38] <Mjolinor> they seem the same to me
[12:15:34] <awallin> min-dc controls the minimum output duty cycle
[12:15:54] <awallin> offset is applied to the input value
[12:16:19] <Mjolinor> ok
[12:16:35] <Mjolinor> so they basically do the same thing when you lok at it
[12:16:51] <awallin> similar-ish..
[12:17:15] <Mjolinor> but min-dc will fix it so the PID cant go below that value whereas if I use offset the PID may take it below the minimum value
[12:17:26] <Mjolinor> I think
[12:20:15] <awallin> yes, min-dc should clamp the output
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[12:50:28] <jthornton> Mjolinor: http://linuxcnc.org/docview/2.5/html/gcode/gcode.html#_g0_rapid_motion_a_id_sec_g0_rapid_a
[12:51:03] <Mjolinor> :)
[12:51:18] <Mjolinor> you could spend your life remving ambiguities
[12:51:32] <jthornton> lol
[12:51:51] <Mjolinor> G90 (set absolute distance mode, XXX for relative)
[12:51:56] <Mjolinor> would be better
[12:52:38] <jthornton> relative would change the meaning of the next line
[12:52:44] <jthornton> did you see the link to G90
[12:53:26] <Mjolinor> nope
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[12:54:17] <Mjolinor> OK, seen it now :)
[12:55:52] <jthornton> would "Links to G90 & M2" catch the eye better?
[12:56:25] <Mjolinor> no
[12:56:30] <Mjolinor> I think it is fine as it is
[12:56:50] <jthornton> ok
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[12:59:44] <archivist> the links are a good idea
[13:00:05] <jthornton> thanks
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[13:01:59] <awallin> "See also"
[13:04:58] <jthornton> See also G90 & M2?
[13:07:09] <Mjolinor> yup
[13:08:37] <awallin> how does the PDF from asciidoc look like?
[13:09:27] <jthornton> pretty much the same but a bit less colorful
[13:09:31] <awallin> any chance of "up" or "TOC" links at the very top of that html page? (I assume this is a chapter in a larger manual)
[13:10:16] <jthornton> unfortunately that code that added that got broken when we moved to asciidoc
[13:35:18] <skunkworks> This is kinda cool :)
[13:35:21] <skunkworks> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/1041496-post70.html
[13:52:58] <awallin> I wonder what the "much more sophisticated" parts of commercial controls are..
[13:56:15] <skunkworks> no clue.
[13:58:37] <skunkworks> probably whatever magic they do for hsm
[14:00:16] <awallin> how many people actually have an emc2 machine with >1g accelerations that would benefit from hsm/better lookahead?..
[14:00:30] <awallin> it's kind of pointless to work on that unless you have a capable machine
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[14:26:05] <skunkworks> yes
[14:26:19] <pcw_home> Mjolino; there are reasons its better to limit the PID range by the PID como, not externally
[14:26:43] <pcw_home> s/perry como/comp/
[14:27:31] <pcw_home> most important being intergral term bounding
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[14:28:39] <mrsun> anyone have an idea of how to measure distances quite accurate and fast ? :)
[14:28:53] <mrsun> say like 50 samples as 100hz or so
[14:28:56] <mrsun> without contact :P
[14:29:21] <awallin> how long distances?
[14:29:21] <pcw_home> how far?
[14:29:25] <awallin> and what accuracy?
[14:29:39] <mrsun> not long, like 5cm or something and down to 1mm or less accuracy =)
[14:29:51] <mrsun> 5 - 10 cm
[14:30:27] <mrsun> friend want to measure the stroke of a loudspeaker in action =)
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[14:31:33] <pcw_home> webcam and crossed lasers pointing at target?
[14:32:22] <awallin> aren't there bass-speakers that have an IR-distance sensor for feedback?
[14:32:50] <mrsun> dont know =)
[14:32:56] <mrsun> pcw_home, dont get it how that works :P
[14:33:19] <mrsun> tried with IR worked fine on a paper cone, but on a plastic (reflective one) we got no readings at all
[14:34:50] <pcw_home> maybe you need titny dot of white paint
[14:35:50] <mrsun> and a webcam wont go any further then 30fps? :P
[14:36:09] <awallin> laser interferometer.. :)
[14:37:18] <pcw_home> with lasers you get a couple cheap laser pointers, put them at about 30 degrees so you have 2 points on the cone whose distanec varies with cone position
[14:38:53] <mrsun> pcw_home, yeah but it would still have the problem with the speed of the webcam =)
[14:39:20] <pcw_home> 60 FPS is common
[14:39:48] <mrsun> still far away from 5000 :P
[14:40:51] <pcw_home> You may be able to do with a lower sampling rate (even 1 FPS is enough if you are measureing a repetitive motion)
[14:41:18] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[14:41:40] <pcw_home> (like a strobe light/sampling scope)
[14:41:51] <Loetmichel> much simpeler: get a line photodiode and a fast a/d-sampler, and a laser/focused led
[14:42:06] <archivist> attach a mirror and reflect onto a linear ccd
[14:42:08] <Loetmichel> mount them at an angle and bingo: distance sensor
[14:43:34] <pcw_home> we
[14:44:02] <pcw_home> webcam = photodiode array + A-D
[14:44:42] <awallin> accelerometer: http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/servosub.html
[14:44:53] <mrsun> he doesnt want to attach anything to the speakers =)
[14:46:21] <awallin> http://www.servospeaker.com/index.html
[14:46:34] <pcw_home> Not even a little bitty dot of paint?
[14:48:43] <Loetmichel> or use something like tins in faster and for a narrow range: http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/37487.pdf
[14:49:14] <Loetmichel> PCW: but the PSD are analogue
[14:49:39] <Loetmichel> unlike a Cam module which has discrete pixels
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[14:50:17] <mrsun> Loetmichel, been looking at that one =)
[14:50:43] <Loetmichel> the sharp sensors are very reliable
[14:50:47] <Loetmichel> but a bit slow
[14:51:18] <Loetmichel> and have problems with IR-mirroring surfaces
[14:51:43] <Loetmichel> gray is OK, white is ok, chrome and (IR) black is not SO good ;-)
[14:54:04] * Loetmichel wanted to make a sort of "cheap lidar" with one of them, by using a rotating and a oscillating mirror
[14:54:26] <Loetmichel> but they are MUCH to slow for that, only about 25 Hz sample rate is maximum
[14:55:11] <Loetmichel> maybe one should use one of them and use the PSD output directly in a own circuit
[14:56:51] <pcw_home> Still think the webcam would work especially if you can get the frame sync signal out and pulse the lasers
[14:56:52] <pcw_home> that shouls get you to maybe 2 KHz equivalent bandwidth
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[15:00:35] <pcw_home> since you are controlling the speaker drive, a sampling approach will give you all the bandwidth you need
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[15:14:12] <alex_joni> well.. just upgraded my home network connection for the same money
[15:14:24] <alex_joni> but now I need to change my router (too slow ;)
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[15:14:42] <Loetmichel> hihi
[15:14:58] <Loetmichel> like here: internet is only 16Mbit
[15:15:10] <alex_joni> mine is now 120Mbit
[15:15:19] <Loetmichel> but my Fileserver and ALL PCs have gbit cards
[15:15:19] <alex_joni> but my router limits it to 22-23Mbit
[15:15:31] <Loetmichel> ... but the switches are only 100mbit
[15:16:00] <Loetmichel> have to get 3 8port and 3 5port gbit switches soon, but am to lazy/cheap to order them ;-)
[15:16:48] <Loetmichel> and a nightly backup from the workstations to the fileserver is a PITA with 100MBit ;-)
[15:18:06] <Loetmichel> <- has laid ~150meters Cat5 in the walls as ic moved in to this rented condo... along with 300m power cable and 160m Sat-coax-cable ;-)
[15:18:14] <Loetmichel> s/ic/I
[15:18:45] <alex_joni> nice
[15:19:28] <Loetmichel> ... and over 50 Switches/wall sockets ;-)
[15:19:55] <Loetmichel> ( upped the Electrics from ~1960 to actual ;-)
[15:20:26] <Loetmichel> ... got a month rent free and all the materials payed by the landlord ;-)
[15:22:10] <Loetmichel> but i am surprised that the neighbours are still liking me... needed almost 2 weeks every evening after work 2-4 hrs of hilti-chiseling the walls ;-)
[15:22:53] <alex_joni> heh, I did about the same thing
[15:23:10] <alex_joni> about 65 sockets in total :)
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[15:23:48] <Loetmichel> red brick walls.... PITA
[15:23:50] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[15:24:25] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3200 <- ;-)
[15:24:34] <Loetmichel> and that in ALL rooms ;-)
[15:25:40] <Loetmichel> (had to lay the cables first, power them and move them into the walls later, 'cause we moved in so fast.
[15:25:59] <Loetmichel> wife was not amused over 2 weeks of dirt ;-)
[15:29:43] <skunkworks> wow
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[15:33:26] <Loetmichel> but now its much better than 3 fuses (1oven, one wahsing machine, one socets and lighting in the rest of the condo ;-)
[15:33:39] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=3209
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[15:57:13] <mazafaka> New Year party at work. Had to dancing. Some adult women are just they are students. dresses and legs.
[15:58:29] <mazafaka> Dresses and legs and dancing. Sexy.
[16:01:24] <Mjolinor> positive feedback loop that, leads to loss of control
[16:05:05] <GregK> Hello! Still working with my Dell GX150. Installed a video card and now I get jitter over 1,000,000 at times. With onboard video it was doing 17,000 after I put in a CF HD adapter. Jitter improves if I lower screen resolution.
[16:05:17] <GregK> What does it mean when I get overruns on the latency test?
[16:07:24] <skunkworks> Hey GregK - why did you install the video card? 17000 is a great latency test
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[16:09:36] <GregK> I have another box like this and it has a video card in it and does a lttile better, but it's on 8.04 and EMC2.2.x. I'll have to pull it and check again, I may have been seeing spikes at 23000 I can't remember now.
[16:10:47] <skunkworks> still - it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. even 23000 is good depending on what you require
[16:11:37] <GregK> Yeah, in this case 23000 will limit my rapids. 17000 would be acceptable.
[16:14:42] <alex_joni> .away bbl
[16:14:50] <alex_joni> meh.. :)
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[16:21:30] <GregK> yeah it does 17048 w/ ob video running glx gears, but I can't see glxgears. splattered on the screen.
[16:23:45] <skunkworks> eww
[16:25:09] <skunkworks> could you lower your microstepping to get higher rapids?
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[16:26:32] <skunkworks> now when you say 17000 is exceptable.. That doesn't mean you can run a 17000 base period...
[16:27:50] <GregK> Right, that's after all the adjustments.
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[16:52:20] <GregK> What is this? EMC starts and crashes. Debug file information: /usr/bin/emc: line 654: 2970 Segmentation fault $EMCDISPLAY -ini "$INIFILE" $EMCDISPLAYARGS $EXTRA_ARGS
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[16:53:58] <jthornton> what did you change prior to this?
[16:54:42] <GregK> new install
[16:54:52] <jthornton> old config?
[16:54:56] <GregK> all new
[16:55:24] <jthornton> stepconf config or sample config?
[16:55:31] <GregK> this is starting axis sample
[16:55:36] <GregK> others seem to start
[16:55:42] <GregK> touchy
[16:55:44] <GregK> worked
[16:56:05] <jthornton> might be a graphics problem then Axis uses opengl
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[16:56:25] <GregK> yeah looks like that it the case.
[16:57:05] <jthornton> might be something here http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting
[16:58:03] <GregK> been sifting thorugh that I couldn't get into Xorg
[17:02:44] <GregK> OK I installed libgl1-mesa-swx11 and axis comes up.
[17:03:04] <IchGucksLive> B)
[17:05:17] <GregK> it also fixed my garbled glxgears. I thought I installed swx11 yesterday, but something must have gone wrong.
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[17:17:39] <JT-Shop> how many watts would it take to cut 0.020" steel with a laser?
[17:17:42] <JT-Shop> Jymmm:
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[17:30:44] <GregK> how do you get the vesa drivers in ubuntu 10.04?
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[17:35:47] <awallin> JT-Shop: depends on how fast you want to cut :) I'm guessing 100W minimum (CO2)
[17:36:29] <JT-Shop> how fast would that cut?
[17:37:25] <JT-Shop> I have a opportunity for some long term business if I can cut these tiny parts out...
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[17:50:33] <elmo401> this looks like ceramic, but still, 200hrs to make this? crazy http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6M4QHIFDyD0
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[18:12:24] <owhite> hello people. I'm trying to scale the signal in a hal file, if any kind soul could give me some assistance, please have a look at http://pastebin.ca/2097222
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[18:20:21] <owhite> Folks, I apologize for the resend. I'm trying to scale the signal in a hal file, if any kind soul could give me some assistance, please have a look at http://pastebin.ca/2097222
[18:24:12] <jthornton> so, what are you missing?
[18:24:37] <owhite> well. scale.0.out reads zero.
[18:24:44] <owhite> when I use halmeter.
[18:24:48] <jthornton> did you addf it?
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[18:25:16] <jthornton> oh, I see it is commented out
[18:25:31] <jthornton> won't do a thing unless you addf it
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[18:26:05] <owhite> well I launch this by.... halrun arduino-vcp.hal
[18:26:13] <owhite> what can I addf it to?
[18:26:44] <owhite> like servo-thread does not exist.
[18:26:56] <jthornton> well scale requires a floating point thread like servo-thread http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/scale.9.html
[18:27:06] <jthornton> you have to create it
[18:27:13] <owhite> okay....
[18:27:19] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/threads.9.html
[18:34:47] <owhite> jthornton: any suggestions for how to launch it from that hal file?
[18:35:33] <owhite> not finding any example hal files on the net. I think it must get launch most of the time in the background when emc gets started?
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[18:39:23] <elmo401> wow, so much vibration (who uses a 90deg tool! slow RPM, too) that the tool post screw is turning :-P (the one on the far right)
[18:40:27] <elmo401> but they use EMC2 :)
[18:43:20] <JT-Shop> owhite: do you have a sample config handy?
[18:43:51] <JT-Shop> basically just like the link says loadrt threads name1=name period1=period [fp1=<0|1>] [<thread-2-info>] [<thread-3-info>]
[18:46:50] <isssy> the name i place is 7M34
[18:46:56] <isssy> sorry7M43
[18:53:38] <isssy> pete , it report ]esa8i43
[18:56:47] <isssy> do you have ise 13.3?
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[19:32:54] <elmo401> I love making sparks with ceramics :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=kmReHL3n0FM
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[19:55:27] <skunkKandT> elmo401: for a second there it looks like it stops cutting.. (must be the camera work)
[19:56:04] <syyl_> that stuff musst be hell to machine ;D
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[20:05:40] <pcw_home> amazing that tool survives that amout of heat
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[20:14:14] <alex_joni> http://pastebin.com/LKc0jtiA
[20:15:43] <owhite> JT-Shop: Thanks for the help. I stepped away for a minute.
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[20:27:26] <owhite> people - I am trying to launch servo-thread in a .hal file that is launched by halrun file.hal - but I cant seem to get it going with loadrt, any suggestions?
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[20:33:53] <A2Sheds> the tool handles the heat, it's the material cut from the part turning to plasma
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[21:13:58] <danimal_laptop> hi
[21:14:58] <danimal_laptop> anyone savvy with tig welders in here? i got an old welder and i need some help getting it ready for use. im not sure on some of the connections. i'm uploading pics right now
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[21:20:23] <danimal_laptop> here's the photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/66828621@N02/sets/72157628625354669/
[21:22:21] <danimal_laptop> the second 2 photos... it's a large grey box with 2 switches and 4 lugs for electrodes and whatnot to mount to. one lug has the welding ground, the second lug has the electrode attached, and the 2 on the left have big banana plugs on them which i assume plug into the orange box on the top
[21:23:43] <danimal_laptop> the orange box has several terminals for the bananna plugs in the front, but i dont really know what goes where
[21:34:04] <Tom_itx> you can't get specs for it?
[21:37:08] <Tom_itx> some are probably plugs for a foot pedal
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[21:40:51] <danimal_laptop> no manuals or anything from what i can find so far. it's probably 50 years old
[21:41:13] <Tom_itx> is one a frequency unit?
[21:42:48] <elmo401> Eartaker: were the roots not growing? http://thehorticulture.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/DSCN1588.JPG or is this how the plant starts off?
[21:45:56] <Tom_itx> danimal_laptop what's the model?
[21:46:31] <danimal_laptop> yes one's a frequency unit. the model for the grey box is hf-15, the orange box is 1.8a/ddr
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[21:51:35] <Tom_itx> ask on one of the welding forums
[21:52:05] <danimal_laptop> yea, im typing up a post right now
[21:52:19] <Tom_itx> http://weldingweb.com/archive/index.php/f-35-p-2.html
[21:52:26] <Tom_itx> that looks like a decent one
[21:53:23] <Tom_itx> Since there is no more Airco, you might try Lincoln and see if they can guide
[21:53:24] <Tom_itx> you
[21:53:31] <Tom_itx> that doesn't sound so good
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[21:54:27] <Tom_itx> I think a lot of airco sets was made by Miller.A company interlas was the only company in the uk allowed to import Miller sets.Miller stated if other companys wished to import there sets they would be called another name .Airco was orange ,Marshal was green Miller was blue
[21:57:31] <danimal_laptop> good to know, thanks!
[21:57:33] <elmo401> pcw_home: re: cutting with ceramics. The tool isn't heated all that much. The chips turn red, they take ~65% of the heat away from the work place and tool. Sure, it does heat but ceramics _only_ work when hot. Just like ceramic brakes on a race car, no good until a few laps go by
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[22:00:39] <Tom_itx> danimal_laptop, if you fail to find anything, i can ask my local guy i got my welder from. they're usually pretty decent to talk with
[22:00:44] pcw_home_ is now known as pcw_home
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[22:02:28] <danimal_laptop> cool thanks! i got some local people i can ask too.
[22:02:39] <danimal_laptop> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/fabrication-cnc-laser-waterjet-plasma-welding-fab/got-old-airco-tig-welder-need-some-help-setting-up-238162/#post1719132
[22:02:47] <danimal_laptop> that's the post i just made
[22:04:12] <Tom_itx> if you don't get anything i'd post on a regular welding forum
[22:07:52] <danimal_laptop> yea i just figured i'd try there since im already registered
[22:08:13] <Tom_itx> yup
[22:08:25] <Tom_itx> btw, how are you coming on the mill retrofit?
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[22:10:37] <danimal_laptop> havent touched it since i got my project jeep lol\
[22:10:45] <danimal_laptop> i need to get working on it again
[22:27:10] <Valen> I want to try ceramic cutters
[22:27:17] <Valen> but i havent found anybody selling them
[22:28:19] <mrsun> http://www.roccera.com/products/end-mills.html heh looks like toys :P
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[22:54:58] <elmo401> because they are!
[22:55:03] <elmo401> toys for big boys ;)
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[22:55:14] <elmo401> weird looking. but id love to test them out.
[23:02:46] <andypugh> OK, what are you talking about?
[23:02:58] <Tom_itx> ceramic cutters
[23:03:07] <Tom_itx> http://www.roccera.com/products/end-mills.html
[23:03:10] <andypugh> Alumina?
[23:03:28] <elmo401> no clue.
[23:03:33] <elmo401> no description
[23:03:43] <andypugh> Ah, no, they look like yttria-toughened zirconia to me.
[23:04:06] <elmo401> ya. other ones are zirc so I guess those ones are too
[23:04:09] <elmo401> ever use them?
[23:04:43] <andypugh> No, but I shared an office with a guy making engine valve-springs from the stuff, it's pretty impressive.
[23:05:01] <elmo401> valve-springs?
[23:05:08] <andypugh> Yes
[23:05:12] <elmo401> not seats?
[23:05:16] <Tom_itx> experimental?
[23:05:17] <andypugh> Springs.
[23:05:18] <elmo401> it is compressible?
[23:05:30] <elmo401> any good?
[23:05:30] <andypugh> No more so than steel.
[23:05:33] <elmo401> was it lighter?
[23:05:50] <andypugh> Mainly still springy at high temperatures.
[23:05:58] <elmo401> you would think ceramic is solid/rigid/brittle
[23:06:40] <andypugh> That was when folk were chasing Carnot efficiency and trying to let engines run super-hot. Before the US forces NOx control measures on the world.
[23:07:54] <andypugh> The ceramic has a metastable phase. In high-stress areas (like the roots of cracks) it transforms to a different phase with a higher volume, releasing the stress. Very clever.
[23:08:26] <andypugh> I have a screwdriver made of the stuff (for adjusting pots) and its lasted years.
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[23:10:49] <A2Sheds> http://imagebin.org/190897 2 servo amps + emc cards all in one PC case
[23:15:54] <andypugh> A2Sheds: Isn't that a minicomputer case, or do you mean the beige one?
[23:15:55] <JT-Shop> computer cases seem to hate covers I think
[23:16:15] <A2Sheds> the beige one has the EMC stuff
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[23:16:29] <andypugh> What's the black one?
[23:16:58] <A2Sheds> the black rack is $65K inkjet controller system that has a 150lb case so you feel like you got something for the $$
[23:17:09] <andypugh> I can't remember, did I show you guys the picture of my eBay acident? (I found a cheap laser printer)
[23:17:52] <A2Sheds> it's just a PC with a few extra boards and a pnuematics controller
[23:18:11] <A2Sheds> nots, what did you find?
[23:18:23] <A2Sheds> no/nots
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[23:18:35] <andypugh> I first suspected a problem when the delivery guy said he couldn't get his fork truck up the step...
[23:18:37] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MgB989_mA9lWpQyLHLqPodMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink
[23:19:09] <PCCNC> hey John u there???
[23:19:16] <A2Sheds> how big is that laser printer?
[23:19:40] <A2Sheds> i like the landscaping BTW
[23:19:47] <andypugh> A2Sheds: It's an A3 one, but with a 2500 sheet magazine.
[23:20:08] <PCCNC> anyone here using THCAD with thc comp written by BigJohnT??
[23:20:44] <andypugh> JT-Shop: shows up in the list.
[23:21:03] <andypugh> But it is possible that others might be able to help too.
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[23:22:33] <JT-Shop> aye, I wrote it PCCNC
[23:22:39] <JT-Shop> and use it
[23:22:39] <PCCNC> thanks andy. actually i got ARC OK signal in HAL but it didnt shows in pyvcp... there is a Red image which turns Green when arc is ok
[23:23:51] <PCCNC> thanks John. i was setting thc.. and didnt get result.. once i got it.. i dont know how.. after after that my z axis never moves...
[23:24:05] <PCCNC> do i need to start cycle to get that button green..
[23:24:07] <PCCNC> ??
[23:24:39] <PCCNC> where is the latest version of that control?? master branch or last release 2.4.7????
[23:25:50] <PCCNC> anybody here or i got disconnected???
[23:26:03] <JT-Shop> we be back and forth
[23:26:08] <JT-Shop> 2.4.7 is the latest
[23:26:25] <PCCNC> with latest thc control???
[23:26:42] <JT-Shop> did you connect the arc ok input to both thc and the pyvcp indicator?
[23:27:32] <PCCNC> i just used your .hal file and removed paraport pin and attached Mesa 7i43 pin 33..
[23:27:46] <A2Sheds> andypugh: how heavy is it?
[23:28:02] <A2Sheds> 200lbs?
[23:28:11] <JT-Shop> PCCNC: let me look to see if I even have it connected to the pyvcp
[23:28:12] <PCCNC> and started plasma.. it shows in HALMETER.
[23:28:33] <andypugh> 150lbs top unit, probably 100lbs bottom unit. Carrying it upstairs was a struggle
[23:29:08] <JT-Shop> you need to tag it onto the start-motion-input signal
[23:29:13] <A2Sheds> anyone know a good source for the tiny <1" lcd panels used in LCD projection units? DLP is no problem
[23:29:41] <PCCNC> halmeter shows start-motion-input signal.. i mean TRUE and FALSE
[23:29:53] <JT-Shop> andypugh: the CNC BP comes home tomorrow :)
[23:30:02] <PCCNC> when i start plasma than it shows FALSE.. so i used in_not ;)
[23:30:33] <JT-Shop> PCCNC: do you have an arc ok signal from your plasma torch?
[23:30:57] <PCCNC> even it shows arc-ok signal TRUE or FALSE according to arc status.. yes i am using Hypertherm PM45
[23:31:00] <PCCNC> and signal is ok
[23:31:12] <PCCNC> i checked it with multimeter and even with HALMETER
[23:31:36] <PCCNC> just pyvcp is not responding to signal.. do i need new source code??
[23:32:07] <PCCNC> or any changes in config???
[23:33:11] <JT-Shop> 17:29 JT-Shop you need to tag it onto the start-motion-input signal
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[23:33:46] <JT-Shop> I never did connect the pyvcp indicator so you will need to modify your HAL file to do so
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[23:35:12] <PCCNC> you mean something like this?? net start-motion-input thc.arc-ok <= motion.digital-in-00 <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.033.in_not
[23:35:14] <PCCNC> net start-motion-input thc.arc-ok <= motion.digital-in-00 <= hm2_[HOSTMOT2](BOARD).0.gpio.033.in_not
[23:36:00] <PCCNC> i am relatively new to HAL.. you can say i can use HALMETER ... can you guide..
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[23:39:05] <jt-plasma> PCCNC: this is how I just did it
[23:39:08] <jt-plasma> # connect the arc ok indicator
[23:39:10] <jt-plasma> net start-motion-input => pyvcp.arc-ok
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[23:39:43] <PCCNC> ok got it.. should i do it in postgui.hal???
[23:40:04] <JT-Shop> you have to use postgui.hal for any connections to the pyvcp panel pins
[23:40:39] <PCCNC> thanks jt-plasma... one more question... it has anything to do with non function behaviour of thc on my machine...
[23:41:11] <PCCNC> my problem is z is not moving at all... i am pretty sure once it has moved... but after that it never moved
[23:42:23] * JT-Shop ponders that one for a bit
[23:42:25] <PCCNC> one more thing i was reading discussion between you and austin.mm on forums
[23:42:30] <PCCNC> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=view&catid=27&id=3980&limit=6&start=60
[23:42:41] <PCCNC> is that problem solved in new code??
[23:43:17] <andypugh> Found a nice little thing on a web shop before christmas (and bought three). A 0-3" digital caliper. Much less likely to get in the way during lathe work.
[23:43:38] <JT-Shop> PCCNC: that was released in 2.4.7
[23:44:37] <PCCNC> thanks JT-Shop, i will download it today only...
[23:45:05] <andypugh> Hmm, just found out that my salary didn't go in before Christmas. I bet that caught a lot of folk out!
[23:45:18] <JT-Shop> ouch
[23:49:22] <andypugh> I had a bit of a "yikes, just how much did I spend on presents?" moment. But still comfortably positive
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[23:58:37] <Jymmm> I didn't go overboard for Christmas presents (trying to build savings acnt)