#emc | Logs for 2011-12-20

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[00:08:13] <PCW> Andy, there seems to be an interesting sserial driver feature.
[00:08:15] <PCW> if no sserial_port_n=whatever is included the in the config line the sserial pins show up in HAL but dont work
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[00:11:45] <jy76> hello gentlemen could anyone tell me how to send to the pastebin from a windows computer?
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[00:15:27] <jthornton> pastebin.com
[00:20:29] <jy76> jthornton thanx im setting that up now i think my problem is lapic
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[00:30:38] <Menno> hello
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[00:33:52] <Menno> what stepper motor drivers do y'all use?
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[00:34:05] <jthornton> G203v
[00:34:21] <Tom_itx> or chinese junk
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[00:34:28] <jthornton> not me!
[00:38:03] <Menno> perfect, I've been searching and all I could find was Chinese stuff with ship times 20-30 days out
[00:38:55] <Tom_itx> http://www.kelinginc.net/StepperMotorDriver.html
[00:41:09] <andypugh> PCW, I will look into that.
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[00:41:25] <Menno> Thanks Tom
[00:42:15] <PCW> Andy: Not that there anything wrong with it,. its just somewhat surprising
[00:42:37] <jdhNC> I got offered a new grizzly Seig X2 for $225 today, kind of dinky, but the price is great.
[00:43:08] <PCW> but I think the default on other modules is if not mentioned, they are disabled
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[00:50:53] <andypugh> No, the default on other modules is that you get all of them if you don't say otherwise.
[00:51:02] <andypugh> And sserial was meant to work the same way.
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[00:52:50] <andypugh> jdhNC: You can't really go wrong at that price.
[00:55:12] <andypugh> Well, jy76 created a pastebin account. I wasn't aware you needed one. He's not asked a question yet though.
[00:55:18] <PCW> Oh thats kind of strange (means you get things you may not even know existed in the firmware)
[00:57:10] <andypugh> I suspect that's the idea, so you can find out what the firmware has in it. :-)
[00:57:38] <andypugh> Otherewise there is no way to do it inside the hm2 driver.
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[00:57:52] <PCW> so to disable sserial including probing you would need to set sserial_port_0=XXXXXXXX
[00:58:12] <andypugh> Yes.
[00:58:28] <PCW> I would prefer num_foobars=-1 to enable all but I guess it a bit late for that
[00:59:21] <andypugh> Originally it defaulted to all-off, so that bits didn't wiggle at startup, but (after discussion, but I can't remember who with) it was changed to match the other behaviours.
[00:59:38] <andypugh> -1 does enable all, it's just that -1 is the default.
[01:00:22] <jdhNC> if nothing else, I can use the x2 to mill out the space for the ball-nut on my G0704
[01:00:30] <PCW> so you have to be careful with config lines and disable stuff you dont need
[01:00:34] <andypugh> Would it be possible, in theory, to make a bitfile with one header allocated half to 2 channels of 7i39 and half to 4 channels of sserial?
[01:00:54] <PCW> Sure
[01:01:15] <andypugh> Or can you make me a 24V 10A 8i20-lite :-)
[01:01:48] <PCW> Thats a 7I39L
[01:02:08] <andypugh> Except it isn't sserial...
[01:02:12] <PCW> Buts yes we are making more SSerial amps
[01:03:24] <andypugh> I need to decide how I am going to set up a test system. I might just end up hooking my current 7i43 stepper machine to a different PC with a 5i23 in it.
[01:03:56] <andypugh> But if I set it up on the bigger mill, I will be needing both 7i39 and 8i20 on the same machine.
[01:04:25] <PCW> You could use the 5I25/7I76 for a stepper machine
[01:05:03] <andypugh> But that won't run a 7i39?
[01:05:27] <PCW> not without some Tomfoolery
[01:06:23] <PCW> We couls send you another couple 8I20s bu I think they need about 50V minimum
[01:06:28] <andypugh> Anyway, it's all in the future. There are huge non-productive gaps in my future, I think I have 3 more weeks at home between now and April!
[01:06:49] <PCW> work intruding?
[01:09:04] <PCW> Anyway we expect to have a small (maybe 3"Sq) SSERIAL MOSFET drive early next year (it will have Hall and maybe encoder local)
[01:12:07] <andypugh> PCW: Partly work, and partly sailing.
[01:12:47] <PCW> The sailing part sounds nice
[01:13:35] <andypugh> Are the 7i39 and 8i20 controlled the same way? I was having trouble with the 7i39 until I increased the motor resistance and dropped the supply voltage. I think it was over-currenting on the PWM on-phase because it is a low-resistance motor.
[01:14:13] <andypugh> It was totally unusable at 50V with a 7i39H
[01:14:34] <andypugh> So, I would expect similar problems with an 8i20 at 50V
[01:15:03] <PCW> Probably too low of an inductance, what PWM rate did you use?
[01:15:04] <andypugh> I could, of course, rewind with thinner wire,.
[01:15:26] <andypugh> Is there a choice of PWM rate? I didn't realise. :-)
[01:15:37] <andypugh> OK, how to choose?
[01:16:12] <andypugh> It's not like I wrote the driver or anything :-)
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[01:16:26] <PCW> For a low inductance low voltage and 7I39 I would use maybe 50 KHz
[01:17:17] <andypugh> Would that have any effect on motor temperature?
[01:17:41] <PCW> 8I20 is not really suited to low inductance motors (20KHz max and pushing it at 20K, default is 12 KHz)
[01:18:10] <PCW> May lower motor temp as the will be lower ripple
[01:18:23] <PCW> there will
[01:18:25] <andypugh> But I will definitely try 48kHz when I get the motor back together.
[01:19:37] <andypugh> I could rewind the motor. However it seems that ampere-turns is almost constant with wire thickess and rated wire current.
[01:19:43] <PCW> This is where a linear hall effect sensor is really a good tool to check stator current and current ripple
[01:20:19] <PCW> but inductance varies as to the square of turns
[01:21:44] <andypugh> Right, I wondered what I was missing.
[01:22:56] <andypugh> But field (and hence torque) is linear with turns, isn't it?
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[01:23:31] <PCW> yes its just amp*turns
[01:23:37] <andypugh> (the inductance being the field coupling back into the windings, hence why they get squared?
[01:23:47] <PCW> yes
[01:24:21] <andypugh> So, more turns is more back-emf and more inductance, but the same torque for the same power dissipation?
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[01:24:59] <andypugh> I would like less hot and more twist, but I don't think I can have that...
[01:25:59] <PCW> Yes (well at the extremes its real hard to wind (too fat wire) or you have more insulation proportionately)
[01:27:22] <PCW> No unless you perhaps have a shorted turn, or a magnetic circuit issue
[01:27:58] <andypugh> Well, the magnetic part just happened, no design there at all other than package space and what steel I could find.
[01:28:34] <PCW> thats why I suggested running the motor as a generator as a check
[01:28:35] <PCW> (if it gets warm with no electrical load you have a shorted turn)
[01:29:03] <mikegg> so, for $60 this is a pretty good supply for the 7i39H
[01:29:05] <mikegg> http://www.ebay.com/itm/250952566288?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1439.l2649#ht_500wt_1129
[01:29:14] <mikegg> ack, what's this 7i40!?
[01:29:29] <mikegg> heh, can I trade mine in?
[01:30:00] <andypugh> mikegg: Looks good for a 7i49H, yes.
[01:30:43] <mikegg> my servos are rated to 300 vdc
[01:31:02] <andypugh> brushed or brishless?
[01:31:06] <mikegg> but i'm nearly certain I'll never need to run them that fast
[01:31:09] <mikegg> brushless
[01:31:13] <andypugh> 8i20?
[01:31:44] <mikegg> I know.... but I can't give him ALL my money :)
[01:32:08] <PCW> How many amps?
[01:33:53] <mikegg> 10.5 continuous
[01:34:48] <PCW> well 8I20 is about right for that (220V AC 2200W cont 6600W peak)
[01:36:21] <PCW> The Granite drives will work for 160V
[01:36:23] <mikegg> 6000 RPM * .157"/rev = way more than I need I think
[01:37:20] <mikegg> let me give you my moms email, she never knows what to get me for christmas anyway
[01:38:13] <PCW> Ha!
[01:38:21] <mikegg> that superport stuff you guys have been working on looks pretty sweet too
[01:40:42] <PCW> Well thank Andy for the driver
[01:42:12] <andypugh> right, time to log
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[01:42:23] <PCW> 'Nite
[01:42:34] <PCW> oops too fast
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[01:44:25] <PCW> bbl
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[01:59:17] <skunkworks> logger[psha]:
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[02:10:22] <tom3p> http://imagebin.org/189459 http://imagebin.org/189458 melamine is way better than white plastic cutting boards, not as nice as soap tho
[02:10:49] <mikegg> that reminds me, I wanted to ask. Is it valid to say 6000 RPM / 325 VDC = x / 48 VDC ? To find the max speed you can drive at the lower voltage
[02:11:12] <mikegg> Is it generally a linear relationship, I guess?
[02:15:48] <tom3p> i'd think that some lower voltage may not move it at all so pretty linear but clipped.
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[02:24:21] <UncleG> .
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[02:59:02] <skunkworks> yes - normally voltage=rpm and current = torque
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[03:17:41] <mikegg> does anybody have a Nema 34 servo they've been meaning to ebay?
[03:19:43] <Eartaker> I have 3 of them... but not for ebay
[03:19:47] <Eartaker> =]
[03:22:27] <mikegg> a couple of them went cheap last week. still kicking myself...
[03:25:00] <Tom_itx> how much is cheap?
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[03:27:00] <mikegg> like $30 incl shipping
[03:27:08] <alex4nder-> that's 'free'
[03:27:11] <Tom_L> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Parker-Compumotor-Servo-Motor-SM232AH-NMSN-Nema-23-New-/130489543265?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e61c86a61
[03:27:14] <Tom_itx> oh
[03:27:55] <mikegg> I've got three Nema 23 servos lying around...
[03:28:20] <mikegg> for $300 i'll make a new motor mount I guess..
[03:30:12] <Tom_L> http://www.ebay.com/itm/QuickSilver-Controls-SilverMax-QCI-A23-3-DC-Servo-Motor-NEMA-23-IP65-/320801099156?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab13c4d94
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[03:33:01] <mikegg> http://www.ebay.com/itm/110690047116?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_500wt_1129
[03:33:08] <mikegg> that looks slick..
[03:33:39] <mikegg> put a spare Nema 34 stepper on it and make a good 4th axis
[03:34:32] <mikegg> they never list the encoder line count though, always make you hunt up the data sheet
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[07:32:42] <Loetmichel> moin
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[11:23:17] <mrsun> hmm, how to check the wear of the lathe bed ?
[11:41:09] <archivist> a straight edge, or a level, or see text book on using a level and trig to work out the "curves"
[11:42:30] <archivist> also old method was with a taught wire another is with a colimator and reflector sliding up and down the bed ( gets angles similar to level method)
[12:14:43] <archivist> mrsun, two books 1: Machine tool reconditioning and applications of hand scraping Edward F. Connelly Machine Tool Publications
[12:15:01] <archivist> Testing machine tools 8th edition for the use of machine tool makers, users, inspectors and plant engineers G Schlesinger Pergamon Press
[12:15:25] <mrsun> machine tool reconditioning is expensive like hell :P
[12:15:36] <archivist> so is the other!
[12:15:50] <archivist> but I got lucky, get searching
[12:16:46] <archivist> but those books dont know about modern optic methods
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[13:20:12] <emc512> Hi, I have a little question. I build a gladevcp GUI for my Spindle. It has a Slider for Spindlespeed but I am not sure how to connect it via HAL so that the G-Code program can controll it as well as the Slider when i am in manual machining mode.
[13:21:02] <maximilian_h> hey emc512
[13:21:40] <maximilian_h> if you have an element ( and I am not really familiar with gladevcp yet ) that needs to be written from two different sources
[13:22:13] <maximilian_h> then you have to write a component for hal, see the comp utility
[13:22:51] <maximilian_h> your problem is that you have two different sources that need to write to one element ( as I understand your question )
[13:23:02] <emc512> you mean I need some kind of toggle switch/mux to select the proper source?
[13:23:15] <maximilian_h> yes, exactly
[13:23:40] <maximilian_h> you need to switch the output depending on your machine's state
[13:23:45] <emc512> that makes sense, is there a signal that tells me if I am in manual machining mode?
[13:23:50] <maximilian_h> there is the halui module
[13:24:20] <maximilian_h> which will give you the info of whether you are in auto mode or mdi mode or whatever
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[13:24:34] <emc512> cool thank you alot
[13:24:43] <emc512> I have just another question ^^
[13:24:59] <maximilian_h> and then, depending of that state of your machine you need to write a comp yourself to switch your output from one of your two sources
[13:25:08] <jthornton> emc512: http://linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man1/halui.1.html
[13:25:08] <maximilian_h> ask, maybe I can help
[13:25:35] <maximilian_h> yes. that halui. See the "exported pins"
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[13:27:31] <maximilian_h> emc512: Is your question answered ? I should leave and pick up a xmas present ;)
[13:30:20] <jdhNC> I'd like servos + drives for 3 axes while you are out.
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[13:33:20] <emc512> no wait a sec please
[13:33:38] <emc512> Ok I have some makro files with some gui in a python script that generates G-Code. So I can just open that macro file like any other G-Code file and the PythonGUI pops up... nice so far. Now I want to add some quick acces buttons to my EMC-GUI that directly opens a macro file. how do I do that?
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[13:38:19] <jthornton> have you seen ngcgui?
[13:39:18] <emc512> no whats that?
[13:40:51] <jthornton> it adds tabs to Axis with your subroutines in them and you just fill in the blanks and it generates the g code
[13:41:18] <jthornton> http://linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/component/kunena/?func=showcat&catid=40
[13:45:12] <emc512> oh exactly what I need
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[13:47:27] <emc512> thank you
[13:48:10] <jthornton> np, it is my favorite thing for my lathe. I can do 95% of my jobs with it
[13:52:10] <emc512> Its for my lathe as well, my first CNC machine ;)
[13:56:11] <jthornton> it's pretty neat as you can concatenate ops together like face then od then drill then bore then thread etc
[14:02:52] <emc512> I've noticed its amazing, I just watched a youtube video with some examples... just what I need ;)
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[15:08:22] <emc512> bye
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[15:37:25] <skunkworks> working in the server room - hear one of the ups's go into test.. BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP and one server goes down.
[15:43:42] <skunkworks> looks like the output of the ups shorted.. (the ups comes up in overload)
[15:54:05] <alex_joni> beeep :)
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[18:03:19] <IchGucksLive> hi all over the world
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[18:20:58] <pcw_home> Slightly rusty Fadal 4020 near Stocton:
[18:21:00] <pcw_home> http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=4916608
[18:31:03] <Loetmichel> re @ home...
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[18:52:55] <alex4nder-> hey
[18:53:56] <IchGucksLive> B)
[18:55:12] <alex4nder-> that fadal would be pretty sick
[18:55:27] <IchGucksLive> but stable
[18:56:53] <syyl> almost like new
[18:56:54] <syyl> ;)
[18:57:17] <syyl> im always a bit curios if a machine tool stands outside in the weather...
[18:57:48] <syyl> saw a cylincrical grinder that stood outside "for a few days"
[18:59:11] <IchGucksLive> nice patina ?
[18:59:53] <archivist> my horizontal mill was out for a year before I made space in the garage
[19:00:00] <syyl> will gets cut into chunks and molten...
[19:00:45] <syyl> *will get
[19:00:52] <syyl> mh, sounds still wrong ;)
[19:01:35] <IchGucksLive> my engl. writing looks also weer to the speaking
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[19:12:55] <treid> thanks for posting that link pete. I had never seen that site before and it looks like there are some steals to be had.
[19:13:02] <IchGucksLive> By and have a nice workday
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[19:38:06] <skunkworks> wonder what this means.. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/132503
[19:39:06] <skunkworks> heh http://groups.yahoo.com/group/mach1mach2cnc/message/132505
[19:46:01] <alex4nder-> skunkworks: espionage, eh?
[19:46:33] <skunkworks> eh - it is usually entertaining reading..
[19:46:49] <skunkworks> and then I hug emc
[19:46:57] <alex4nder-> haha
[19:47:37] <archivist> skunkworks, I giggle at the parport is not fast enough bit
[19:48:45] <skunkworks> yet they can drive it at 100khz... supposedly..
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[19:52:33] <skunkworks> Isn't what jone posted on the mailing list a little off? turning a spindle by hand causes missed tranistions? That doesn't make sense. everything would be off then if that was the case.
[19:55:28] <archivist> I did notice that and another oddity
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[19:56:42] <archivist> the whole idea of quadrature is to not miss counts
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[20:04:36] <skunkworks> right
[20:05:18] <skunkworks> unless he is talking about when the index fires could be different depending how how large the index slot is compared to the quadature signal.
[20:06:20] <jdhNC> does the index pulse usually come between a&b pulses?
[20:06:42] <archivist> the phase and width of the index compared to the quad signals
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[20:45:48] <PCW> They have a fast interrupt driven step/dir gen. it should be easy for them to support ~100-500 count encoders
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[20:47:31] <PCW> Often the index pulse is gated with A or B (our counters have that option anyway)
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[20:50:08] <cradek> I don't understand jon e's message really at all
[20:50:36] <PCW> Depending on index phase and width there might be a difference in latched count that depends on direction
[20:50:37] <cradek> (and I don't think he understood mine)
[20:51:00] <cradek> oh is that what he meant?
[20:51:08] <cradek> that's sure true
[20:52:44] <PCW> Not sure, with our (fairly decent) test encoders the index count is always the same
[20:53:46] <PCW> but they seem to gate the index with A
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[20:57:36] <cradek> seems like it could vary by 1 based on direction on some common encoders
[20:57:50] <cradek> I think the width is generally the same as the other widths
[20:58:10] <cradek> but I'm no expert on all the encoders ever made
[20:58:15] <PCW> why Mach insists on 1 count/turn lather encoders I cannot fathom
[20:58:16] <PCW> the error due to external torque disturb (load change) is roughly proportional to 1/counts^2
[20:58:18] <PCW> so even a 4 count encoder (2 wires!) is ~16 time better
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[20:58:59] <cradek> PCW: because the software for that setup currently exists and works, and only one guy knows how to improve it, and he ain't doin' it
[20:59:19] <PCW> Yeah high magic...
[20:59:56] <cradek> I bet that parport driver code is the assiest of code and he's loathe to try to add another feature because every time he touches it, it goes all to hell.
[21:00:09] <cradek> but what do I know about that :-)
[21:00:44] <PCW> Dont know (dont want to)
[21:03:09] <Tom_itx> not even a little?
[21:03:28] <PCW> Finally tracked down the Xilinx bug that been plaguing me for the last few months
[21:03:30] <PCW> caused the encoders not to work with filtering on and the resolver Mod to not work
[21:03:49] <PCW> sometimes...
[21:05:56] <PCW> The secret is dont use Webpack version 9.2
[21:05:57] <PCW> 10.1 is OK
[21:06:10] <PCW> 6.3 is OK
[21:06:32] <Tom_itx> :/
[21:06:41] <Tom_itx> i thought that was the one you suggested i install
[21:07:01] <PCW> 9.2 ramdomly decides that small counters are signed rather than unsigned
[21:08:12] <syyl_> just ordered a glas scale...
[21:08:26] <syyl_> that will get quite interesting when i hook it up to my stepper-cnc :D
[21:09:30] <Tom_itx> where'd you get it?
[21:09:54] <syyl_> its a sino, from a german supplier
[21:10:09] <syyl_> but i can return it, if it doesnt work :D
[21:10:26] <Tom_itx> i talked to a retired engineer today i had business with that told me he had a company that did alot of mold work with zero tolerances
[21:10:49] <Tom_itx> was a fun talk with the ole guy
[21:11:09] <syyl_> those people know their trade ;)
[21:11:26] <Tom_itx> he engineered molds mostly for the plastics industry
[21:12:02] <Tom_itx> i've been thru a couple of the plants he did work for
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[21:41:49] <alex_joni> .a is a static lib, right?
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[22:02:39] <alex4nder-> hey
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[22:12:09] <alex_joni> hi
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[22:13:53] <tom3p> Static libraries conventionally end with the ".a" suffix ( except in Canada where it may be mistaken for common speech pattern as in "libgtk++- ey?" )
[22:14:56] <mrsun> heh, clock on computer goes 91 seconds slow over 10 hours
[22:15:03] <mrsun> maybe time to check cmos battery
[22:21:19] <alex_joni> tom3p: :P
[22:22:57] <alex_joni> is the pc on while it does that?
[22:23:04] <alex_joni> mrsun: ^^
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[23:15:29] <andypugh> Has anyone here tried photochemical machining?
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[23:20:25] <alex_joni> photochemical?
[23:20:29] <alex_joni> like for PCB's ?
[23:20:34] <andypugh> Yes.
[23:20:40] <andypugh> But thicker.
[23:20:44] <alex_joni> nope
[23:21:05] <andypugh> I was wondering what they use for aluminium and/or stainless.
[23:21:55] <andypugh> You can have things made that way be eMachineshop, but it probably isn't cheap. http://www.emachineshop.com/machine-shop/Photo-Chemical-Milling/page81.html
[23:23:21] <PCW> We priced so photochemically etched shield boxes one time (cuts were done by etching both sides, fold lines by etching one side only so 1/2 way through)
[23:24:08] <PCW> They were too expensive for us way back when
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[23:25:42] <JT-Shop> Andy, make any progress on your motor experiment?
[23:25:45] <PCW> those thin stainless steel encoder wheels are probably done that way
[23:26:06] <andypugh> I guess from the fact that you priced but (implicitly) didn't buy that it was expensive?
[23:26:27] <andypugh> Yes, that is my assumption, and exactly what I want to make.
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[23:26:40] <PCW> Yep punched tin plated brass was a lot cheaper
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[23:28:09] <PCW> Wonder what the etch stainless steel with? (that does not attack organic photoresists)
[23:28:20] <PCW> s/the/they/
[23:29:32] <Tom_itx> some sort of acid
[23:31:24] <PCW> A quick google search says good old ferric chloride
[23:32:04] <PCW> not that I would want that anywhere around machine tools
[23:33:09] <Tom_itx> http://www.stonechemical.com/sitemap.asp
[23:36:30] <Tom_itx> here you go: http://m31studio.com/stainless-steel-business-cards.html
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[23:39:57] <andypugh> Hmm, I have some ferric chloride, I see an experiment in my future.
[23:39:57] <andypugh> Quite a detailed description here: http://www.qualitetch.co.uk/upload/documents/white_paper.pdf