#emc | Logs for 2011-11-22

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[00:00:06] <JT-Shop> is that a problem with halui?
[00:00:09] <andypugh> It is, isn't it?
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[00:01:31] <andypugh> Must go, 0740 train tomorrow.
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[00:01:39] <JT-Shop> have a good one
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[00:25:54] <Tom_itx> is vfd purely for spindle control?
[00:27:50] <A2Sheds> a vfd may be used to control any AC motor
[00:28:15] <archivist> any 3 phase induction motor
[00:28:17] <Tom_itx> so it's for ac drive only?
[00:28:31] <Tom_itx> what about a dc spindle motor?
[00:28:36] <Tom_itx> just pwm it?
[00:28:51] <A2Sheds> yes
[00:28:59] <Tom_itx> archivist sorta like a hdd platter motor?
[00:29:58] <JT-Shop> for AC induction motors only not AC servo drives AFAIK
[00:30:30] <Tom_itx> i'm just trying to get a feel for what drives what
[00:30:43] <A2Sheds> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive simple overview
[00:31:21] <Tom_itx> you see spindle motors on ebay listed with those
[00:31:27] <Tom_itx> i just wondered
[00:32:17] <archivist> it is a way to convert single phase AC to 3 phase too
[00:33:33] <JT-Shop> choppy 3 phase I think
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[00:34:43] <archivist> some of the other methods of single to 3 phase have problems too
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[00:37:55] <danimal_laptop> vfd's are great for running 3ph spindles on single phase
[00:38:14] <A2Sheds> the TCL scripts in EMC are pretty slick
[00:39:46] <A2Sheds> is jepler = Jeff Epler?
[00:40:05] <Tom_itx> that would be a good asumption
[00:40:36] <A2Sheds> jepler and cradek wrote axis, nifty!
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[01:21:45] <danimal_laptop> thats cool, i didn't know that
[01:22:02] <danimal_laptop> thanks jepler and cradek!
[01:22:41] <danimal_laptop> i'm excited to try touchy, that's probably my main motivation to get the new machine built
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[02:09:41] <danimal_laptop> anyone know a way to figure out leads on a transformer? I have one from my machine but the label is unreadable, and many of the wires were already cut.
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[02:10:55] <JT-Shop> how many leads?
[02:11:11] <danimal_laptop> well there's a terminal block with quite a few on one side
[02:11:28] <Tom_itx> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor_color_code#Transformer_wiring_color_codes
[02:11:32] <JT-Shop> 3 phase transformer?
[02:11:49] <Tom_itx> maybe not so helpful
[02:12:03] <danimal_laptop> the other side has 5
[02:12:10] <danimal_laptop> im not sure, i think so
[02:12:18] <danimal_laptop> the side with 5 is the input side i believe
[02:12:30] <danimal_laptop> there's 3 heavier gauge wires, and 2 smaller wires
[02:12:41] <JT-Shop> might be a mult-tap transformer
[02:12:46] <danimal_laptop> yea
[02:12:54] <JT-Shop> is it connected to anything now?
[02:12:58] <danimal_laptop> looks like there's 3 windings?
[02:13:01] <danimal_laptop> no
[02:14:06] <danimal_laptop> rats got at some of the wiring
[02:14:15] <JT-Shop> rats!
[02:14:19] <danimal_laptop> i know!
[02:14:30] <Tom_itx> did some of the wiring get to the rats as well?
[02:14:46] <danimal_laptop> maybe!
[02:15:14] <danimal_laptop> if it's a 3 phase transformer, there's no way to use it as single phase, huh?
[02:15:27] <PCW> Nope
[02:15:40] <Tom_itx> no
[02:15:43] <JT-Shop> NO
[02:15:45] <danimal_laptop> any way to tell if it is in fact 3 phase?
[02:15:50] <Tom_itx> we had to swap one out on a Fadal once
[02:16:19] <PCW> Does it have three equal legs?
[02:17:21] <danimal_laptop> i see 5 wires on the input side, two are like 18ga, 3 are probably 10 or 12ga
[02:17:34] <danimal_laptop> im guessing it's 3 phase
[02:17:50] <PCW> What does the core (iron part) look like?
[02:18:20] <Tom_itx> http://www.3phasepower.org/3phasewiring.htm
[02:18:21] <Tom_itx> colors
[02:18:36] <Tom_itx> 5 wires
[02:19:02] <JT-Shop> look like this one? http://imagebin.org/185105
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[02:19:42] <Tom_itx> that one is rather obvious
[02:20:08] <JT-Shop> it does all kind of transforming :)
[02:20:10] <danimal_laptop> it's a big block with 3 bulges, one wire coming out of each bulge
[02:20:27] <danimal_laptop> 3 blue wires, 2 smaller brown ones
[02:20:43] <danimal_laptop> each bulge looks like a seperate winding
[02:20:57] <danimal_laptop> it's wraped in paper or something
[02:20:59] <PCW> Sure sounds like three phase
[02:21:04] <danimal_laptop> i think it is
[02:21:22] <danimal_laptop> JT-Shop: all i see is a red x
[02:21:34] <danimal_laptop> ok so i guess im stuck getting a new transformer
[02:21:49] <Tom_itx> i thought you'd decided that
[02:22:02] <danimal_laptop> i called my buddy the machinery dismantler, he said he has one
[02:22:10] <danimal_laptop> yea
[02:22:20] <Tom_itx> single phase?
[02:22:28] <danimal_laptop> i wanted to get it moving first
[02:22:44] <JT-Shop> a red x in the image?
[02:22:45] <danimal_laptop> im sure, he knows i only have single phase
[02:22:49] <danimal_laptop> JT-Shop: yea
[02:22:54] <JT-Shop> weird
[02:22:58] <PCW> What does the transformer power?
[02:25:06] <PCW> If its servo DC power you may need some power supply changes as well for single phase (more filtering)
[02:25:29] <danimal_laptop> it powers the servos
[02:25:33] <danimal_laptop> dc servos
[02:26:10] <danimal_laptop> copley says an unregulated power supply
[02:26:20] <danimal_laptop> (copley drives)
[02:26:22] <PCW> I see some big capacitors danimal_laptops future...
[02:26:35] <JT-Shop> better pic? http://imagebin.org/185107
[02:26:35] <Tom_itx> or lots of little ones
[02:26:41] <Tom_itx> better esr
[02:26:53] <danimal_laptop> i was going to use the cap and rectifiers that were in the machine
[02:27:03] <Tom_itx> make sure they're not dried out
[02:27:04] <JT-Shop> copley makes some nice drives but some are too smart
[02:27:28] <danimal_laptop> JT-Shop: yes
[02:27:32] <danimal_laptop> thats pretty much it
[02:27:49] <PCW> Except the existing capacitors are for 360 Hz not 120Hz
[02:28:01] <JT-Shop> yea that is the 3-phase transformer in my CHNC
[02:29:09] <danimal_laptop> PCW: it's just one big cap, 8700mfd 150vdc
[02:29:14] <PCW> but you are running it on 3 phase
[02:30:05] <danimal_laptop> copley said i can use a cheap regulated power supply if i throw a diode in the circuit
[02:30:14] <PCW> It may explode on single phase (with big servo load)
[02:30:32] <danimal_laptop> ah
[02:30:44] <danimal_laptop> any way to find out the proper cap size?
[02:30:53] * JT-Shop wanders inside and flicks on the magnetassswitch
[02:31:01] <danimal_laptop> lol
[02:31:03] <JT-Shop> on the lazyboy
[02:31:06] <danimal_laptop> take it easy
[02:31:11] <JT-Shop> goodnight
[02:33:08] <PCW> the problem is that with single phase the DC power from the rectifier goes completely away
[02:33:09] <PCW> 120 times a second and the capacitor has to fill in With three phase the rectified DC never drops to 0
[02:33:53] <danimal_laptop> the manual says reservoir capactiance of 4000uf per ampre of maximum output current will reduce the ripple to 2volts at 120hz
[02:34:19] <PCW> (and three phase ripple is 360 Hz making filtering much easier on three phase)
[02:34:23] <danimal_laptop> ah
[02:34:26] <danimal_laptop> gotcha
[02:35:26] <PCW> OK so whats the maximum drive current?
[02:35:44] <Tom_itx> a couple caps added, fixed JT-Shop's inverter problem
[02:35:49] <danimal_laptop> 10, 20 peak
[02:36:13] <danimal_laptop> i called copley today, they said a 25-30a power supply should be good for 3 drives
[02:36:41] <danimal_laptop> so thats what i was aiming for, does that make sense? 70-80v
[02:37:06] <Tom_itx> yup
[02:37:17] <Tom_itx> i'd shoot for the high side of that
[02:37:20] <Tom_itx> to be safe
[02:37:41] <Tom_itx> one thing, it would probably run cooler
[02:37:53] <PCW> so 25a would be about 25V ripple with your existing (soon to explode) capacitor
[02:38:38] <danimal_laptop> so 26100 would be tripple the uf of what's in there, would that be sufficent if the existing one worked on 3 phase?
[02:42:42] <PCW> More would be better
[02:43:18] <Tom_itx> i'm of the opinion that more smaller ones are better than one big one
[02:44:03] <PCW> Yes for better ripple current capability (but you need to get good capacitors in any case)
[02:44:13] <Tom_itx> right
[02:45:48] <danimal_laptop> where's the best place to get these? looking on ebay now
[02:46:23] <danimal_laptop> freakin expensive!
[02:46:27] <Tom_itx> yup
[02:46:37] <Tom_itx> i would probably hit a local motor shop
[02:46:43] <Tom_itx> or electrical supply
[02:47:54] <A2Sheds> 26000uF/100V caps?
[02:48:19] <Tom_itx> more than 100v
[02:48:44] <Tom_itx> i forget what percent over v is a save value
[02:48:44] <A2Sheds> 80V + ripple + safety margin?
[02:48:46] <Tom_itx> safe
[02:49:02] <A2Sheds> 80V motor?
[02:49:19] <Tom_itx> that's what he's shootin for i believe
[02:49:46] <danimal_laptop> yea
[02:50:12] <A2Sheds> how long do you want them to last?
[02:50:53] <danimal_laptop> 20years?
[02:51:49] <Tom_itx> when's your retirement plan kick in?
[02:52:00] <Eartaker> A2Sheds, I paid $16 for my 100v 25,000uf cap
[02:52:23] <Eartaker> A2Sheds, are you using the keling 80V servos?
[02:52:40] <A2Sheds> buy extras!
[02:52:43] <danimal_laptop> its me, not him
[02:52:49] <Eartaker> ahh
[02:52:51] <danimal_laptop> where'd you get them?
[02:52:59] <Eartaker> local surplus
[02:53:06] <A2Sheds> 90% off list price
[02:53:32] <danimal_laptop> http://www.ebay.com/itm/GE-Capacitor-11900-uF-11900uF-150VDC-86F199M-/160430238954?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255a632cea
[02:53:36] <danimal_laptop> 3 of those?
[02:53:41] <danimal_laptop> he's got 3
[02:54:14] <A2Sheds> if they are new, but they look used
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[02:54:29] <PCW> And may be old
[02:54:58] <danimal_laptop> caps go bad pretty fast?
[02:55:12] <PCW> a United Chemicon 15000 at 160V is only $30 or some such
[02:55:46] <Eartaker> Danimal_garage, caps go bad if not used
[02:55:46] <A2Sheds> depends on how they are made and the materials, life is listed in the specs
[02:56:02] <danimal_laptop> ah
[02:56:17] <Eartaker> http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-100v-19000uf-BC-MILITARY-GRADE-BUS-CAPS-22000uf-REPLACE-/180666612989?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item2a1091bcfd
[02:56:41] <Eartaker> those 2 are new
[02:56:53] <danimal_laptop> 100v
[02:57:00] <Eartaker> yeah
[02:57:08] <Eartaker> your going to be running 80v
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[02:57:26] <danimal_laptop> 100v should be enough?
[02:57:31] <Eartaker> yeah thats what I use
[02:57:38] <A2Sheds> regulated supply?
[02:57:41] <danimal_laptop> cool
[02:57:41] <Eartaker> are you going to use the G320X drivers?
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[02:57:46] <danimal_laptop> unregulated
[02:57:49] <danimal_laptop> no
[02:57:58] <danimal_laptop> i have copley servo drives
[02:58:01] <Eartaker> ahh
[02:58:24] <danimal_laptop> it'll be about a 30a power supply
[02:58:24] <Eartaker> do you already have a transformer?
[02:58:27] <danimal_laptop> no
[02:58:41] <danimal_laptop> someone's giving me one though
[02:59:01] <A2Sheds> http://www.elna-america.com/tech_al_reliability.php just some background on what happens with electrolytic caps
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[02:59:29] <Eartaker> oh you will want a 55VAC transformer
[02:59:46] <danimal_laptop> 55v to get 80v?
[02:59:47] <Eartaker> after its rectified it will be 77V out
[02:59:49] <Tom_itx> yeah
[02:59:49] <danimal_laptop> ah
[02:59:59] <danimal_laptop> good to know, thanks
[03:00:21] <Eartaker> to get the you juat take the output of the tranny and multiply by 1.414
[03:00:34] <Eartaker> square root of 2
[03:00:50] <danimal_laptop> http://www.ebay.com/itm/TCI-150v-33000uf-Computer-Grade-105c-Capacitor-ScrewTop-/200637553260?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb6ee1a6c
[03:01:10] <Eartaker> that would wrk
[03:01:12] <Eartaker> work
[03:01:50] <A2Sheds> PCW: that's a great price
[03:04:23] <A2Sheds> United Chemicon 15000 at 160V ~$30ea
[03:06:17] <Eartaker> so you need 30A output?
[03:06:22] <A2Sheds> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?WT.z_header=search_go&lang=en&site=us&keywords=E36D161HPN153MDA5M-ND&x=0&y=0
[03:06:27] <danimal_laptop> about there
[03:06:28] <A2Sheds> $23ea
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[03:06:42] <Tom_L> http://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/United%20Chemi-Con%20PDFs/U36D%20Series.pdf
[03:06:45] <A2Sheds> Lifetime @ Temp. 2000 Hrs @ 85°C
[03:06:58] <Eartaker> hmm seems like alot
[03:07:06] <danimal_laptop> nice
[03:07:31] <Eartaker> here is a 24A http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=151
[03:07:38] <Eartaker> transformer
[03:07:39] <A2Sheds> Ripple Current 15.52A, ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance) 14.9 mOhm
[03:08:18] <danimal_laptop> 24a would do, i saw that yesterday
[03:08:23] <danimal_laptop> i might do that....
[03:08:35] <danimal_laptop> we'll see what my buddy came up with
[03:08:39] <Eartaker> I got the 1000va version
[03:08:48] <danimal_laptop> it works well?
[03:08:57] <Eartaker> I have had no problems
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[03:09:04] <danimal_laptop> not that you can really screw up a transformer i guess
[03:09:22] <Tom_itx> short to frame
[03:09:32] <danimal_laptop> so about $220 bucks and i have a power supply, not too bad
[03:09:40] <Tom_itx> yup
[03:09:51] <Tom_itx> that's why i went surplus for mine
[03:10:10] <Eartaker> here is also something that may be an option for you
[03:10:11] <Eartaker> http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-135
[03:10:11] <danimal_laptop> good call, i could check the surplus yard
[03:10:20] <A2Sheds> Eartaker: have you ever monitored the current under load to see where is typically is?
[03:11:01] <Tom_itx> smaller scale i went 3x these for my stepper system: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/psu1.jpg
[03:11:08] <Tom_itx> 2 shown
[03:11:09] <Eartaker> A2Sheds, I have not but my stem is built for 20A and I have yet to pop my fuses
[03:11:14] <Eartaker> system
[03:12:01] <Eartaker> http://www.eartaker.net/machining/milling/zx45.php
[03:13:22] <Tom_itx> i think mine are ~48v @18A total
[03:14:04] <danimal_laptop> well i think i got enough to go on, thanks for the help guys!
[03:14:12] <Eartaker> np
[03:15:07] <danimal_laptop> time to finish putting the shop back together
[03:15:23] <danimal_laptop> it's a disaster zone after shuffling the machines
[03:16:54] <Eartaker> what kind of machine are you converting to CNC?
[03:17:09] <danimal_laptop> it's a kasuga mill
[03:17:19] <danimal_laptop> it had a bandit III control on it
[03:20:14] <Eartaker> OOo
[03:20:25] <Eartaker> looks heavy
[03:23:24] <danimal_laptop> it's about 6000lbs
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[03:31:58] <Danimal_garage> i think i officially have to ditch this drill press
[03:32:02] <Danimal_garage> no room
[03:32:47] <Danimal_garage> me thinks i need to make a dump run as well
[03:33:26] <Tom_itx> it's gotta be better than mine
[03:33:36] <Tom_itx> darn shame i'm not closer
[03:34:10] <Danimal_garage> its pretty nice
[03:34:18] <Danimal_garage> it's an old craftsman from the 50's
[03:34:22] <Danimal_garage> floor standing
[03:34:26] <Danimal_garage> real solid
[03:34:42] <Tom_itx> back before they started cheapening stuff
[03:35:22] <Danimal_garage> yea
[03:35:37] <Danimal_garage> its made by king-seely
[03:35:44] <ds3> u need to add more floorspace
[03:35:46] <Danimal_garage> seeley*
[03:35:54] <Danimal_garage> i wish
[03:36:01] <Danimal_garage> no more land either
[03:36:14] <ds3> add a second level
[03:36:23] <ds3> and a 2 story gantry crane to move it around
[03:36:25] <Tom_itx> dig down
[03:36:36] <Danimal_garage> ha
[03:36:42] <Tom_itx> then expamd under the neighbors house
[03:36:48] <A2Sheds> http://media.unpythonic.net/axis-files/etchcnc/etch-globe-full.jpg when i was a kid we had to do this by hand
[03:36:53] <Danimal_garage> nothing i have can really go on anything but cement
[03:37:12] <Tom_itx> you'd hit bedrock eventually
[03:37:17] <Tom_itx> or the ocean
[03:37:19] <Tom_itx> :)
[03:37:25] <Danimal_garage> lol
[03:39:19] <A2Sheds> Danimal_garage: are you near Mission Beach?
[03:44:25] <Danimal_garage> define near
[03:44:39] <A2Sheds> heh, you're closer than me
[03:44:43] <Danimal_garage> 35-40 miles i think
[03:45:16] <Danimal_garage> im in north county
[03:46:57] <A2Sheds> ah ok, I don't recall seeing many garages big enough down there to hold all you equipment
[03:47:19] <danimal_laptop> it's just a 2 car garage
[03:47:29] <danimal_laptop> maybe 500 square feet
[03:47:40] <danimal_laptop> it's packed
[03:47:40] <A2Sheds> thats like shops in japan
[03:47:45] <danimal_laptop> ha
[03:47:49] <danimal_laptop> yep
[03:48:13] <danimal_laptop> 11 tons of iron in here, at least
[03:48:25] <Tom_itx> 4" floor?
[03:48:28] <Tom_itx> :)
[03:48:32] <danimal_laptop> probably
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[04:00:03] <Danimal_garage> yawn
[04:00:17] <Danimal_garage> wonder if quack got that supermax
[04:00:54] <Tom_itx> that's a bp alike isn't it?
[04:01:04] <Danimal_garage> yea
[04:01:06] <Tom_itx> i think that's what we had at my friends shop
[04:01:10] <Tom_itx> it was pretty decent
[04:01:19] <Tom_itx> for a manual
[04:01:36] <Danimal_garage> yep
[04:01:47] <Tom_itx> power feed on x
[04:01:48] <Danimal_garage> this one had a trak system on it
[04:01:54] <Danimal_garage> servos
[04:01:56] <Danimal_garage> 3 axis
[04:02:01] <Tom_itx> even better
[04:02:13] <Danimal_garage> yea
[04:02:16] <Danimal_garage> 1400
[04:02:20] <Danimal_garage> cheap
[04:02:24] <Tom_itx> no kidding
[04:03:21] <Danimal_garage> i almost went to look at it
[04:03:28] <Danimal_garage> but i really wanted a toolchanger
[04:04:06] <Tom_itx> yeah his first boss 5 we layed em all out on the table in order :)
[04:14:27] <sparrW> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1183 this is a common 2A stepper driver in 3d printer communities. can anyone recommend a similar driver that can supply 3-4A that isn't more than triple the price?
[04:22:07] <Tom_itx> allegro has some good chips
[04:22:20] <Tom_itx> i'd check their site for stepper driver chips
[04:22:31] <Gromits> There is a 15A pololu Motor Driver 15A IRF7862PBF
[04:22:58] <Gromits> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9107
[04:23:51] <Tom_itx> 2x those for a stepper
[04:23:59] <Tom_itx> i think
[04:29:46] <Tom_itx> http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Products/Part_Numbers/3985/index.asp
[04:29:52] <Tom_itx> that looks like a good candidate
[04:30:00] <Tom_itx> for external mosfet drivers
[04:31:36] <Tom_itx> osmc project may be another one to search out
[04:33:58] <Tom_itx> http://www.robotpower.com/products/osmc_info.html
[04:34:14] <Tom_itx> not stepper though
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[04:37:13] <Tom_itx> there was a 5A chip but i don't have the pn for it or recall the mfg
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[04:50:11] <pcw_home> THB8128 is (maybe) 4A
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[05:04:39] <Danimal_garage> i need to install heavy duty d hooks all around the perimeter of my garage so i can use them to pull my machines around lol
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[05:25:23] <Tom_itx> a version i did of the osmc using the HIP4081: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/hip4081_bridge.png
[05:25:37] <Tom_itx> 40-50A
[05:26:10] <Tom_itx> depending if you used IRF1404 or IRF1405 iirc
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[05:31:54] <danimal_laptop> it's amazing how far this guy is willing to take his lie about when he shipped a package from ebay
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[06:43:29] <Loetmichel> Danimal_garage: normal ebay seller?
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[09:14:09] <mrsun> http://wimp.com/tiniestengine/ now thats a machining project =)
[09:14:30] <mrsun> stirlings etc can just throw themselfs into the wall and encapsulate themself in concrete :P
[09:16:29] <mrsun> ofc would be cooler if it worked on real fuel but :P
[09:16:43] <mrsun> or does it ? :P
[09:16:51] <mrsun> seems to me to go on compressed air =)
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[09:21:12] <fragalot> mrsun: it *could* be a diesel style engine but who knows :P
[09:21:15] <Tom_itx> what scale is it?
[09:21:21] <fragalot> Tom_itx: "tiny"
[09:21:22] <fragalot> :/
[09:21:28] <Tom_itx> i posted a cheby v8 the other day
[09:22:37] <mrsun> fragalot, yeah metanol or whtever its named maybe also, but no little heat plugs in the cylinders that i can see
[09:23:01] <mrsun> Tom_itx, well thats a V12 :P
[09:23:09] <fragalot> mrsun: shouldn't need those if it's built properly
[09:23:20] <mrsun> fragalot, to start the ignition of the fuel ?
[09:23:24] <fragalot> might take a while to start & run on it's own but it SHOULD work
[09:23:29] <mrsun> atleast in these small rc motors i thought it was like that
[09:23:33] <mrsun> have to get it it going
[09:23:37] <fragalot> mrsun: old diesels run fine without heatplugs
[09:23:46] <fragalot> they just take a while to get going
[09:23:56] <mrsun> fragalot, well they have a compression rate that is throught the ceiling :P
[09:24:09] <fragalot> hence the "built properly" :d
[09:24:14] <mrsun> Tom_itx, link for the V8 ? :)
[09:26:10] <Tom_itx> http://www.moyermade.com/chevyV8.html
[09:26:35] <mrsun> fragalot, yeah true but i think it would be hard to get high enough compression without high velocity (initial firing of the fuel) =)
[09:27:08] <mrsun> but yeah, true .. using one of those rc starters
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[09:27:19] <mrsun> i guess it should be possible =)
[09:27:24] <Tom_itx> spark ignition , pressurized oil system and cooling
[09:28:07] <Tom_itx> they're both very cool
[09:28:45] <mrsun> like that V8 =)
[09:28:55] <mrsun> atleast you can hear the roaring of it =)
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[16:26:30] <skunkKandT> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/robots-automation/pc-based-robot-control-235916/
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[16:32:45] <archivist> skunkKandT, the last post could be corrected as we use a realtime kernel too
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[16:33:52] <IchGucksLive> hi all
[16:33:59] <IchGucksLive> cradek: ?
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[16:36:42] <cradek> skunkKandT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80YhX73DuSg
[16:38:30] <IchGucksLive> nice but the code comses from mastercam robotic postpro i think as i do it here to
[16:38:59] <cradek> no, that robot was running the usual splash screen gcode
[16:39:21] <skunkKandT> archivist: I was wondering but - hard realtime?
[16:39:50] <skunkKandT> cradek: thanks. forgot about that.
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[16:41:31] <cradek> wish we'd gone to the trouble of rigging up a spring loaded pen holder and better table setup
[16:41:45] <archivist> skunkKandT, I think its probably the same thing as we use by another name
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[16:42:56] <pcw_home> Yes I would think EMC falls under the hard-realitime definition (on the right hardware)
[16:43:56] <cradek> that "oh crap I'm staring at welding" is so hard to suppress
[16:44:08] <skunkKandT> heh - yes
[16:44:15] <danimal_laptop> ha, when i started watching that video, i thought it said underneath "Using EMC2's generalized serial kinematics, this robot can run the world"
[16:44:35] <JT-Shop> anyone have any ideas why this guy is having a problem jogging in world mode? http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,24/id,4542/limit,6/limitstart,18/lang,english/#15021
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[16:47:49] <A2Sheds> cradek: why was TCL/Tk chosen to write AXIS vs Qt? I don't have a preference either way. I'm just wondering.
[16:50:33] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[16:51:06] <skunkKandT> how about that...
[16:51:07] <skunkKandT> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/robots-automation/pc-based-robot-control-235916/#post1694451
[16:53:36] <skunkKandT> heh - I need to set my 'geometry' line in emc so that the tool cone isn't backwards when I am machining on the other side of the table..
[16:55:04] <IchGucksLive> http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/221111175420_Bildschirmfoto-45.png i want to discuss a emc issue if someone can help me ?
[16:55:19] <IchGucksLive> as you see in the picture
[16:55:28] <IchGucksLive> i did xyy uv code
[16:55:48] <skunkKandT> wow - you have a lot of axis's
[16:56:03] <IchGucksLive> but the emc showes not squares like the librecad construction it makes a oktagon
[16:57:09] <IchGucksLive> do i need to set somthing for displaying this in 2 planes
[16:58:04] <IchGucksLive> left up of the picture is the G-code
[16:59:32] <IchGucksLive> even with this set -> G17 G21 G90 G61 G54 no effect
[17:00:13] <IchGucksLive> di i realy need to hack axis for displaying the 2 planes on there own
[17:02:39] <IchGucksLive> by the way today i got the Chinese TB6569 electronik to work http://www.mechmo.de/5-achsen.mp4
[17:03:26] <IchGucksLive> someone of the devel cracks here to discass the display issue ?
[17:07:44] <IchGucksLive> the actuell mashining will cut as programmed but for education i need the display also
[17:08:29] <IchGucksLive> woudt also be good for real production if i got the real toolpath on the display
[17:09:01] <IchGucksLive> no developer here ß
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[17:15:10] <pcw_home> skunkKandT: actually that Fanuc robot sounds like an ideal EMC retrofit (encoders and HBridges)
[17:15:11] <pcw_home> But lack of connection data would make it hard for someone to do without a fair amount of electronics/reverse engineering savvy
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[17:17:37] <skunkKandT> yes - it would require some work and knowledge.
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[17:20:22] <pcw_home> Wonder if it has BLDC motors Ive got some strange direct drive (elbow) robot motors
[17:20:24] <pcw_home> that are 3 phase variable reluctance step motors (about 12 In in diameter and 5 inches thick)
[17:22:03] <pcw_home> and if thats not strange enough they have matching 3 phase resolvers
[17:23:53] <skunkKandT> odd
[17:24:49] <skunkKandT> BTW - K&T still running great. Your hardware is awesome. Thank you.
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[17:27:56] <pcw_home> Glad its working well for you
[17:27:58] <pcw_home> dont suppose you tried the 7I48 muxed encoder/velocity fix?
[17:28:06] <skunkKandT> crap - sorry. not yet
[17:28:34] <skunkKandT> I have been so busy machining every chance I can get.
[17:28:42] <skunkKandT> (as I am now)
[17:29:11] <pcw_home> I think Sebastian can check it when he gets a chance (sent him a 7I48)
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[17:29:55] <skunkKandT> with the machine being down for a few years - we have a backlog of projects. :)
[17:31:40] <pcw_home> Yeah I mean I could check it as well, but would either have to set up a loopback (stepgen to encoder input)
[17:31:42] <pcw_home> or some real hardware, and I also have a fair backlog of things to do
[17:32:26] <skunkKandT> The only thing I did the other day as far as setup is hook up the cyclestart on the other side of the machine. (that went pretty smooth)
[17:33:24] <skunkKandT> it was already hooked into an input - just needed a line in hal
[17:33:25] <psha> anyone has 10.04 installation nearby?
[17:33:37] <JT-Shop> yea
[17:34:10] <danimal_laptop> i do
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[17:34:29] <danimal_laptop> hi John
[17:34:30] <psha> python -c "import collections; print collections.namedtuple('Test', ['a', 'b'])(0, 1).b"
[17:34:38] <psha> please run this in console
[17:34:53] <psha> just to ensure that namedtuple is available on default emc install
[17:35:03] <skunkKandT> 1
[17:35:06] <JT-5i25> returned 1
[17:35:53] <JT-Shop> Hi Dan
[17:36:18] <danimal_laptop> how goes it
[17:37:13] <JT-Shop> not bad, just finished making a fire pit for some tail gaters who tail gate in their driveway
[17:38:45] <danimal_laptop> nice
[17:39:12] <danimal_laptop> i just watched the fedex truck drive away leaving only a door tag :(
[17:39:39] <danimal_laptop> he drove away with my chiller, apparently the douche that sent it made it signature only
[17:39:46] <danimal_laptop> i HATE that...
[17:43:05] <pcw_home> At least they didn't kick it out of the back of the truck Like UPS does
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[17:46:56] <JT-Shop> my UPS guy puts packages in the carport
[17:47:35] <JT-Shop> dang RO system sprang a tiny leak :?
[17:47:38] <JT-Shop> :/
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[17:49:21] <pcw_home> We've had some pretty bad experiences with UPS to customers but our local driver is fine
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[17:52:10] <Poincare> i live near a crossing and our regular ups guy has to pas here few times on his tour, if i'm not here, he'll try again later
[17:52:57] <danimal_laptop> i needed the chiller for anodizing today :(
[17:53:22] <Poincare> another courier once put a 19" rack in front of my neighbour's door
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[17:53:32] <archivist> here we can go to the local ups shed and collect
[17:54:09] <Poincare> after inspection it was clear why he left in a hurry, there were 2 forklift markings in the side panels :-(
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[18:23:50] <Danimal_garage> shitty picture, but here's the new mill. http://www.flickr.com/photos/66828621@N02/6384358423/
[18:24:15] <Danimal_garage> the head is all apart, i had to dismantle it to get it in the garage
[18:25:58] <IchGucksLive> "bracketleft", "bracketright" witch keys are this ?
[18:26:12] <skunkKandT> Nice!
[18:26:35] <Danimal_garage> thanks
[18:26:50] <JT-Shop> []
[18:26:55] <Danimal_garage> as you can see, i already gutted the old controller
[18:27:08] <IchGucksLive> JT-Shop: thanmks
[18:27:18] <JT-Shop> nice white sheetrock :)
[18:27:31] <Danimal_garage> the touch screen, mpg, and a few buttons will go in the enclosure
[18:27:35] <Danimal_garage> haha thatnks
[18:28:00] <JT-Shop> at least the 15hp beast of a phase converter starts up and runs
[18:28:14] <Danimal_garage> nice!
[18:28:20] <Danimal_garage> is it loud?
[18:28:28] <Danimal_garage> or louder?
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[18:31:03] <IchGucksLive> JT-Shop: does not work in sim mode maybe
[18:31:25] <IchGucksLive> or where is the [] on the english keyboard ?
[18:31:41] <archivist> under {}
[18:32:42] <JT-Shop> op[]\
[18:33:07] <JT-Shop> no, it is pretty quiet and it is just sitting on the concrete
[18:33:49] <danimal_laptop> thats good
[18:34:05] <danimal_laptop> i ordered a transformer and cap
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[18:35:47] <IchGucksLive> xev gives me the pressed key and this is the same maybe it does not work but i bind axis
[18:35:56] <IchGucksLive> bind_axis("bracketleft", "bracketright", 3)
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[18:46:18] <IchGucksLive> what i do not understand is why there is a oktagon so middle path of xy / uv is generadet
[18:47:09] <IchGucksLive> f i go for G17 it shoudt display the XY and if i go for G17.1 the UV lines
[18:52:37] <psha> thanks all
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[19:17:13] <IchGucksLive> by for today
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[19:19:15] * skunkKandT likes go/no-go gauges
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[20:00:27] <A2Sheds> PCW: which receivers are used for the TTL encoders on the 7i33?
[20:10:19] <PCW> 74HCT14
[20:15:53] <PCW> They have a 1K series resistor and 220 pF to ground at their inputs so they are safe up to about +15 -10V accidental overvoltage
[20:16:44] <A2Sheds> thanks, I need to drive the 7i33 encoder inputs and an optocoupler
[20:17:51] <PCW> Differential is usually preferred if your encoders can do it
[20:17:55] <A2Sheds> am26ls31c (equivalent) drivers
[20:18:37] <PCW> yeah so thats differential
[20:19:20] <PCW> Are the OPTOs floating or one side already tied high/grounded
[20:19:27] <PCW> ?
[20:20:23] <A2Sheds> 510 series resistor on one side + / - floating, I have to measure everything to be sure since the docs are poor
[20:21:15] <PCW> well if its floating you can drive the OPTO differentially as well
[20:21:59] <A2Sheds> what are the differential receivers on the 7i33?
[20:22:33] <PCW> MAX3094
[20:22:41] <A2Sheds> thanks
[20:23:16] <A2Sheds> the encoders are buffered through an ASIC
[20:24:03] <PCW> Only issue I can see is if drive is weak you may not get enough differential voltage for the OPTOs
[20:24:05] <PCW> (7I33 terminates the differential inputs)
[20:24:24] <PCW> (120 Ohm)
[20:24:39] <A2Sheds> I think the opto's are hcpl-2231's
[20:25:01] <A2Sheds> 2.5-5ma current
[20:27:25] <A2Sheds> nah the actual data sheet has 1.8ma
[20:28:21] <PCW> so with 510 Ohm needs about 2.5V to get that
[20:29:22] <PCW> so if your 26ls31 equivalent driver can do that I'd go differential
[20:29:40] <A2Sheds> it's not selectable
[20:30:08] <A2Sheds> I'd rather not have to add a buffer
[20:30:28] <A2Sheds> won't know until I measure
[20:31:18] <PCW> 5V or 3.3V signals?
[20:31:50] <A2Sheds> and I really don't want to have to rewire a 50 conductor molded cable assembly
[20:32:14] <A2Sheds> don't know for certain, supposedly 5V
[20:32:27] <A2Sheds> no detailed specs
[20:33:14] <PCW> Well try them into a load (or go TTL but TTL is less noise resistant for encoders)
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[20:36:39] <A2Sheds> it's supposedly differential only, I won't know until I actually measure, why I wanted to know what I'm trying to actually drive
[20:36:48] <A2Sheds> thanks!
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[20:37:05] <PCW> welcome
[20:39:41] <PCW> Heh Our little dumb 8 bit CPU (used by SSLBP etc) runs at 150 MHz in Spartan6, currently blinking LEDs at 30 MHz!
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[20:44:20] <A2Sheds> PCW: how low have the prices gotten for the Spartan6?
[20:47:51] <A2Sheds> nevermind, pretty low
[20:51:03] <JT-Shop> WOW! I installed the EMC 2.5 deb and with a few mouse clicks I had a config with gladevcp panel using pncconf :) and it worked
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[20:53:13] <danimal_laptop> i have no clue what that means, but it sounds cool!
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[20:54:23] <PCW> They are cheap/fast and low power pretty nice overall
[20:55:07] <PCW> No if the tools would reliably build what you tell them to it would be nicer still :-)
[20:55:20] <PCW> s/No/Now/
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[20:57:38] <FinboySlick> Yay, I got my Atom 330 :)
[20:57:45] <danimal_laptop> sweet
[20:57:57] <danimal_laptop> is it running yet?
[20:58:00] <FinboySlick> Very hard to find, but they still have some if you guys don't mind buying from Canada.
[20:58:28] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I scavenged some crummy ram to do so and it's only booting off a stick right now but it's pretty good.
[20:58:29] <A2Sheds> did you test the latency jitter yet?
[20:58:55] <FinboySlick> A2Sheds: In the process... Without even disabling anything (not even hyperthreading) worse I could manage is 13k.
[20:59:21] <FinboySlick> And I had it maximize glxgears on and off (which seems to be the worse test I could come up with so far).
[20:59:26] <A2Sheds> how much are they selling for?
[20:59:32] <FinboySlick> 89$
[20:59:59] <FinboySlick> Canadian, so it's like 400 US ;)
[21:00:14] <A2Sheds> heh was just typing something similar
[21:00:41] <FinboySlick> Actually, I read that wrong, my peak so far is 11.3k.
[21:00:52] <FinboySlick> Round it up to 11.4.
[21:01:39] <FinboySlick> I'm eager to see if CL4 ram is going to give it a boost.
[21:01:57] <FinboySlick> It's on CL6 right now.
[21:02:44] <FinboySlick> Uh oh...
[21:02:55] <FinboySlick> Seems it doesn't like being idle.
[21:03:11] <FinboySlick> 45.4 servo, 18.3 base.
[21:03:46] <PCW> Idle CPUs are the devils playground...
[21:04:21] <FinboySlick> pcw: I got a case that supports low profile so I should be ready for that 5I25.
[21:04:40] <A2Sheds> try the: while true ; do echo "nothing" > /dev/null ; done
[21:07:19] <PCW> We still dont have low profile brackets unfortunately
[21:08:31] <danimal_laptop> FinboySlick: it's actually $85.79 usd
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[21:09:46] <FinboySlick> danimal_laptop: I got that wrong too actually, it's 93.00 CAN.
[21:10:21] <FinboySlick> pcw: I'll make one.
[21:10:37] <FinboySlick> I have a couple VGA ones I just need to widen it a bit.
[21:11:06] <skunkKandT> on tapping - motion.spindle-index-enable goes true - then goes false after the index gets read?
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[21:11:29] <FinboySlick> Any suggestions for pci latency timer?
[21:11:42] <FinboySlick> And if HPET should be on or off.
[21:11:43] * skunkKandT thinks I lost an index....
[21:11:47] <skunkKandT> or he
[21:12:04] <skunkKandT> position counts up - but no tapping
[21:12:14] <skunkKandT> (should not have said anything earlier..) ;)
[21:13:10] <danimal_laptop> i found a new local scrap metal recycler that pays more and will take my titanium and carbide :)
[21:15:10] <A2Sheds> FinboySlick: you never really know until you try the settings in your system, sometimes HPET off helps, sometimes not
[21:15:40] <A2Sheds> same for the PCI latency 32 or 64
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[21:16:14] <FinboySlick> Hmmm, I think it's dead Jim.
[21:16:53] <FinboySlick> Oh, nope, just real real slow.
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[21:17:53] <A2Sheds> underclock to 33mhz?
[21:18:11] <PCW> We have some low profile brackets coming from Taiwan but they will still be a while
[21:18:36] <JT-Shop> Danimal_garage: gladevcp? or pncconf?
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[21:19:50] <Danimal_garage> either lol
[21:26:35] <JT-Shop> pncconf is a tool to generate a config for Mesa hardware
[21:29:16] <andypugh> Reading back in the logs: Danimal_garage http://www.ebay.com/itm/Quantity-6-lot-3000uf-450vdc-High-quality-RIFA-electrolytic-capacitor-/200676046109
[21:30:58] <andypugh> Actually, cheaper as singles! http://www.ebay.com/itm/3000uf-450vdc-High-quality-RIFA-electrolytic-capacitor-Large-can-/200665529861
[21:33:47] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5648659860476109218
[21:33:54] <Danimal_garage> ah thanks, i just got one though
[21:34:11] <andypugh> That's my servo PSU, no transformer, just rectification.
[21:34:36] <Danimal_garage> nice!
[21:34:49] <Danimal_garage> how many v?
[21:35:31] <PCW> Those 450 uF caps are a bargain if you need them however (assuming thats not a typo in the second page)
[21:36:15] <Danimal_garage> i got that 30000uf one someone linked me the other day
[21:36:27] <Danimal_garage> 30k or 33k, i forgot
[21:36:48] <Danimal_garage> and a tordial transformer
[21:37:27] <Danimal_garage> i want my enclosure to be pretty this time
[21:37:42] <andypugh> My supply runs at 300V.
[21:37:46] <Danimal_garage> i can spend a little more time on this one since i have a running mill already
[21:38:03] <Danimal_garage> nice
[21:38:09] <Danimal_garage> i just need about 80v
[21:39:53] <A2Sheds> "These are aging but we have charged and used a few now and they work fine." well how about measuring their capacitance?
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[21:44:29] <A2Sheds> looks like the date code is the 3rd week of 08, or 8th week of 03
[21:46:15] <mrsun> hmm, a way to cut keyways in pulleys without very expensive brotches? :)
[21:46:52] <mrsun> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAkU8BXlA5Q ahh could work :P
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[21:48:28] <skunkKandT> well crap - we lost the spindle index channel
[21:48:55] <cradek> mrsun: a cnc lathe can work as a shaper
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[21:54:49] <Danimal_garage> cradek: i've done that before (accidentally)
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[21:58:30] <JT-Shop> I have a video of how not to touch off tools on a lathe :/
[21:58:52] <fragalot> JT-Shop: do share?
[21:59:18] <syyl> rapid into workpiece?
[21:59:45] <JT-Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4-lUNa0CpY
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[22:00:18] <JT-Shop> also there is a pretty neat one making little seals for the lathe on the lathe
[22:00:30] <syyl> mh
[22:00:32] <syyl> ouch
[22:00:52] <JT-Shop> what did I say?
[22:01:49] <syyl> :\
[22:02:05] <syyl> hope theres no real damage
[22:02:30] <JT-Shop> after resetting everything and deburring the collet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isTD6bDF_LI&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
[22:02:35] <Danimal_garage> lol
[22:02:46] <Danimal_garage> thats why i like having a small lathe
[22:03:17] * JT-Shop wanders off to play with electricity for a bit
[22:03:18] <Danimal_garage> well i just replenished my material for a few months... ouch.
[22:03:25] <syyl> that looks way better :)
[22:03:51] <JT-Shop> I made a whole hand full of the washers in no time
[22:04:13] <syyl> hey
[22:04:28] <syyl> pulling out the workpiece with the tool
[22:04:30] <syyl> nice :)
[22:04:46] <Tom_itx> Danimal_garage, how big is the toriod?
[22:04:58] <Danimal_garage> size? i dunno
[22:05:08] <Tom_itx> v A
[22:05:08] <Danimal_garage> 24a
[22:05:17] <Tom_itx> off ebay?
[22:05:45] <Danimal_garage> no antek
[22:06:50] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: is thtat whats called in germany a "langdreher", a.k.a is there 6 meters of material feed behind the collet?
[22:07:13] <Loetmichel> and can the collet move the material out on itself?
[22:09:42] <andypugh> Loetmichel: I think that what you are talking about is known as a "Swiss Lathe" (but probably not in ch or de)
[22:10:45] <andypugh> (Incidentally, there is a Citizen lathe of that type, with a non-working control, on eBay UK for £600 )
[22:11:06] <Danimal_garage> swiss screw machine
[22:11:46] <Tom_itx> which one did you get?
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[22:11:55] <Tom_itx> all i see are 19A listed
[22:11:56] <Loetmichel> one of the suppliers of ma company has 2 of these "langdreher"s. with about 12 fixed ans 6 driven tools, a second spindle with handover and INSANELY fast ;-)
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[22:13:14] <Loetmichel> made 200 of this in not more time than a coffee and a cig: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11441
[22:13:16] <Loetmichel> ;-)
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[22:14:28] <andypugh> Loetmichel: From round bar?
[22:14:54] <Loetmichel> no, but that would be not much slower
[22:16:18] <Loetmichel> would only be 6 times a driven tool moving down across the bar ;-)
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[22:17:06] <Loetmichel> the interesting thing on it: the visible "collet" isnt gripping the material, its just alinging it
[22:17:50] <Loetmichel> inside the spindle there is a gripping collet which can move about 300mm or so back and forth to move the material.
[22:18:55] <Tom_itx> Danimal_garage, which one did you get? i don't see a 24A listed
[22:18:57] <andypugh> Yes, I have seen them on YouTube, fascinating machines.
[22:19:03] <Loetmichel> the tools dont move, the material dose
[22:19:09] <Loetmichel> does
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[22:21:02] <JT-Shop> Loetmichel: no, I just had about 1m of material behind the collet
[22:22:19] <Loetmichel> JT-Shop: but the machine can move the material without user interaction?
[22:22:40] <JT-Shop> if you program it to do so yes
[22:23:35] <JT-Shop> but I don't have a bar feeder so I have to use cradek trickery
[22:23:54] <Loetmichel> andypugh: the coffee and the cig was NOT exaggerated. i was there to pick um something for teh company and asked about my bolts, the supplier said: "take yourseld a coffe, i have the program loaded, just a moment"
[22:24:32] <Loetmichel> ... and seconds later you could hear a finished part falling out of the machine about every 5 secons.
[22:24:40] <Loetmichel> amazing...
[22:26:52] <Loetmichel> (i mean, thas : make a stund on the front end, cut a outer M3 in it, deburr the hexagon corners, grip it with the other spindle, cut it from the bar, shave it off, drill a hole in it on the other side, drill a M3.
[22:26:55] <Danimal_garage> i wonder how powdercoating would hold up to sulferic acid
[22:27:10] <Loetmichel> stud
[22:28:17] <Danimal_garage> thanks, yea, i've been working out
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[22:31:09] <JT-Shop> it's a plastic but you always have some small void iirc
[22:31:27] <JT-Shop> 15hp phase converter is doing nice with the 308
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[22:32:35] <A2Sheds> Danimal_garage: in your anodize tanks?
[22:32:43] <Danimal_garage> cool, why'd you need a bigger one?
[22:32:51] <Danimal_garage> A2Sheds: yes
[22:33:08] <Danimal_garage> i need to make a heat exchanger, i'm using aluminum for now
[22:33:32] <Danimal_garage> curious how the powdercoat would hold up to the acid. maybe it'd protect the aluminum
[22:33:51] <Danimal_garage> then again im sure if it would, people would always be doing it
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[22:34:53] <A2Sheds> what's your concentration?
[22:35:03] <Danimal_garage> 18% or so
[22:35:12] <Danimal_garage> should be a little under 20%
[22:36:00] <A2Sheds> a polypropylene coating would work
[22:36:42] <Danimal_garage> probably too thick, wonder how it would insulate
[22:36:45] <A2Sheds> actually, coat it with glass, just keep it from flexing
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[22:37:27] <Danimal_garage> hmmm didnt think about glass. i should just plumb in empty beer bottles lol
[22:37:32] <JT-Shop> the 10hp didn't have the needed poop to take care of the current inrush of the 308
[22:37:51] <A2Sheds> use glass frit
[22:38:21] <A2Sheds> or use glass tubing
[22:38:40] <Danimal_garage> JT-5i25: did you try a pony motor?
[22:39:05] <Danimal_garage> A2Sheds: im looking at glass heat exhangers now. much cheaper than ti it looks like
[22:39:25] <A2Sheds> or Polypropylene powder coat
[22:39:32] <A2Sheds> no polyester
[22:40:35] <Danimal_garage> hmm
[22:41:53] <Danimal_garage> http://www.ebay.com/itm/PYREX-Glass-Tube-1-Sealed-End-5-x-16-8-NEW-/360410371312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53ea21d4f0
[22:42:24] <Danimal_garage> just make a cap on one end with fittings and pump cold water through it while it sits in my tank
[22:43:48] <JT-Shop> Danimal_garage: a pony motor?
[22:45:10] <Danimal_garage> or an idler motor. the more motors you run, the higher the hp capacity of the phase converter from what i hear
[22:45:21] <A2Sheds> Danimal_garage: what size is your tank?
[22:45:39] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: Have you looked at lab glassware? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Corning-Pyrex-Liebig-Condenser-19-38-Joints-/370562078235
[22:45:49] <Danimal_garage> so if you have a 10hp phase converter and you add a 2hp motor, you should be able to run about 12hp
[22:46:04] <Danimal_garage> A2Sheds: about 30 gallons
[22:46:07] <andypugh> But I would have thought that a long loop of nylon pneumatic tube (or PTFE tube) would work.
[22:46:27] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: plastic is horrible for heat transfer
[22:46:49] <andypugh> So use a lot?
[22:46:52] <Danimal_garage> A2Sheds: yea, looking at it now
[22:47:01] <andypugh> FWIW it works fine for underfloor heating.
[22:47:24] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: i have size constraints
[22:47:41] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Zeus-PTFE-Teflon-Tube-Thin-Wall-12-Gauge-100-Length-/200670915268
[22:47:49] <Danimal_garage> plastic is usually not reccomended by anodizing guys
[22:48:08] <JT-Shop> I ran a 7.5hp motor at the same time on my lathe and no difference
[22:48:22] <Danimal_garage> hmm
[22:48:40] <Loetmichel> [23:46:54] <andypugh> FWIW it works fine for underfloor heating. <- where you have LOTS of surface area!
[22:49:06] <andypugh> Aye, I was imagining loops round the entire surface of the tank.
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[22:49:52] <A2Sheds> glass is ~4x the thermal conductivity of PTFE
[22:50:30] <A2Sheds> it just depends on how efficient you want it to be and how much volume you can spare in your tank
[22:51:07] <Loetmichel> hmmmm
[22:51:32] <Loetmichel> anodizing is suphuic acid and naoh before that?
[22:51:34] <PCW> Glass would probably have to be much thicker that the PTFE though
[22:52:04] <andypugh> I like the PTFE idea because it is tough and stable.
[22:52:10] <Loetmichel> the acid should be ok with the (polyester) powder coat, but the Naoh COULD eat that from the aluminium
[22:52:52] <A2Sheds> 1 W/(m.K) = 1 W/(m.oC) = 0.85984 kcal/(hr.m.oC) = 0.5779 Btu/(ft.hr.oF) glass = 1, ptfe =0.25
[22:53:14] <A2Sheds> the esters get eaten
[22:53:16] <andypugh> I suspect you don't need ultimate efficiency, you are not trying to (for example) extract all the heat from water in one pass through a radiator.
[22:53:41] <A2Sheds> PP or nalgene
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[22:54:12] <Danimal_garage> it's only sulferic acid
[22:54:59] <andypugh> Buy that PTFE tube, throw it loose in a tank of water, see how it goes. If it's no good, then you have 100' of PTFE tube for other jobs :-)
[22:55:08] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: cooling is expensive, i do want maximum efficency
[22:55:23] <A2Sheds> aluminum is 250, just change it out when it gets too thin
[22:55:45] <Danimal_garage> i got aluminum tubing, that was the plan
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[22:55:59] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: But you don't waste the "coldness" if it takes three passes through the intercooler.
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[22:58:05] <andypugh> All the heat pumped by your cooler is extracted from the tank, but it might take longer to cool the tank with a less efficient heat exchanger. With the poorer-quality heat exchanger the working fluid will be colder on entry to the chiller, so the chiller isn't working as hard, and the cost balances out.
[22:58:18] <Danimal_garage> i'd need a chiller will a colder capacity in order to get the exterior of the plastic tubing to get to the same temperature as the glass or metal within a given amount of time, right?
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[23:00:00] <andypugh> Probably not. The issue is if the heat produced in the tank (or leaking into the tanks from your arid climate) is heating the contents faster than the not-very-good cooling circuit can manage.
[23:00:27] <Danimal_garage> and that's the problem
[23:00:31] <andypugh> Anyway, was that 1W/mK quoted earlier?
[23:00:55] <A2Sheds> 1" x 50ft masonry bit, drill under your garage, install a heat pump
[23:01:05] <Danimal_garage> i need to be able to disipate about 350watts with a 500w chiller
[23:01:18] <A2Sheds> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
[23:01:25] <Danimal_garage> 350w of heat
[23:02:37] <Danimal_garage> hm ti isnt on there
[23:02:43] <andypugh> Any idea how big that 12-gauge tubing is?
[23:03:43] <Danimal_garage> no clue
[23:04:20] <andypugh> I thought you Americans understood your stupid arcane units?
[23:05:17] <andypugh> I think it might be 0.1", which would be useless.
[23:07:29] <Danimal_garage> i'm just going to try the 6063 i got first
[23:15:35] <skunkKandT> are we talking electrical, shotgun or metal thickness.. ;)
[23:20:58] <JT-Shop> none of the above
[23:21:00] <Danimal_garage> plastic tubing
[23:21:29] <Danimal_garage> i just bent up a coil out of aluminum
[23:29:48] <JT-Shop> I need to quit drawing parts that are impossible to machine :/
[23:32:07] <andypugh> What's the integral of 48-x^2 ?
[23:33:43] <andypugh> Ah, found it. I definitely have forgotten how to integrate.
[23:33:59] <andypugh> http://www.numberempire.com/integralcalculator.php
[23:34:37] <cpresser> wolfram-alpha hels with this stuff. even learning :)
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[23:39:00] <andypugh> Somebody asked what the volume of a 16mm sphere with an 8mm hole drilled through it was.
[23:39:56] <andypugh> I was quite pleased that I could rememebr how to set up the integral equation, but disappointed that I couldn't solve it
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[23:40:18] <andypugh> The pragmatic solution: http://imagebin.org/185216
[23:41:34] <Danimal_garage> for shame
[23:42:15] <cpresser> andypugh: thank you... not i need to test my skills and see if i am able to do it^^
[23:42:29] <andypugh> I got as far as 2*pi*Integral(0 to 6.9282)(48-x^2)
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[23:46:43] <PCW> But hasn't some ancient always done the integration already?
[23:46:57] <PCW> http://www.puzzles.com/puzzleplayground/HoleInTheSphere/HoleInTheSphereSol.htm
[23:46:58] <andypugh> Yes, Archimedes in this case
[23:48:59] <PCW> also maybe theorem of pappus for volume of figures of revolution
[23:49:19] <andypugh> This was a slightly different solution, in that the diamter of the sphere was given, not the length of the hole.
[23:52:37] <PCW> does kind of remind me of when someone asked me the length of tape on a reel (they said calculus was needed)
[23:52:38] <PCW> But of course the volumes of a lot of shapes are already known...
[23:53:36] <andypugh> Tape on a reel is easy, just the volume divided by the thickness.
[23:53:57] <andypugh> (Actually, the area of the disc divided by the thickness)
[23:54:09] <PCW> Right
[23:55:36] <danimal_laptop> i know my times tables
[23:55:43] <danimal_laptop> up to 10x10
[23:56:06] <andypugh> I never learned mine. I know 2x and 3x and derive the rest. It's not very efficient.
[23:57:36] <Danimal_garage> i actually lied, i don't know them
[23:57:43] <Danimal_garage> i just wanted to fit in
[23:58:05] <jdhNC> I have a calculator
[23:58:28] <elmo401> AR 235. Very hard material. Difficult to turn. I have a piece on my lathe (at work) that is 49" dia x 5" thick. Very heavy! Stressing the jaws big time.
[23:58:37] <JT-Shop> I have 12 calculators one for every spot I might find myself in otherwise I fake it
[23:58:58] <andypugh> elmo401: CBN and 120m/min
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