#emc | Logs for 2011-11-19

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[00:00:03] <andypugh> Or, possibly need a negative D (especially if P is negative)
[00:00:29] <PCW> also make sure you use the encoders velocity pin for the PID
[00:00:44] <PCW> DONT USE NEGATIVE P
[00:00:53] <Tom_itx> yeah i wondered about that
[00:01:00] <Tom_itx> all the pid should be positive i think
[00:01:07] <andypugh> PCW: The world needs an SSLBP Resolver interface. Bonus point if it is <$50 for 8 axes.
[00:01:37] <PCW> EMC's PID loop has a nasty bug with negative I
[00:01:47] <emcrules_d510> SSLBP absolute interface would be awesome
[00:02:25] <andypugh> Negative P is sometimes right. Not necessarily in EMC2 though. My oil pump controller needs negative P, as it controls a relief valve.
[00:03:17] <PCW> Unfortunately theres a fair amount of analog stuff that needs to be fairly good for a noise resistant resolver interface so $50 is not likely
[00:03:24] <andypugh> PCW: I was pondering last night, what do you have that still doesn't work with EMC2?
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[00:04:10] <PCW> Well with the auto discover stuff probably nothing we can make work
[00:04:17] <PCW> cant
[00:04:52] <PCW> SSI and BISS absolute encoders still have no support
[00:06:11] <PCW> I was just mentioning the negative P stuff because it results in a runaway with EMCs PID loop (if you have I)
[00:06:44] <Tom_itx> I is acumulative right?
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[00:08:22] <andypugh> Tom_itx: Two useful posts (in the wrong order) http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,14483/catid,10/
[00:08:50] <PCW> Yes the integral term (that accumulates error over time) The EMC negative I problem is bounding fails for negative I term and latches up with fulll drive
[00:10:41] <PCW> emcrules_d510 are you using CUI encoders? if so look up Jon Elsons emc-devel post about same
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[00:12:41] <PCW> andypugh: also a minor thing thats never been supported (well you asked ) is the encoder filter adjustment
[00:12:52] <emcrules_d510> PCW: no i am not impressed with them
[00:13:09] <andypugh> This be the article, that it be: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.devel/4499/match=cui
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[00:13:28] <emcrules_d510> PCW: what did jon have to say about them?
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[00:14:21] <PCW> Too much phase lag basically (which you cannot afford on D especially)
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[00:17:30] <PCW> emcrules_d510 can yo setup the PID loop with just D, small at first and hand check the damping?
[00:17:41] <andypugh> PCW: So, you think that there is a bug in PID that ought to be fixed?
[00:18:20] <Quack> are "Sharp" b-port clones any good>?
[00:18:38] <Quack> http://www.sharp-industries.com/mills/lmv-lmv50.html
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[00:19:05] <PCW> I think the manual should just suggest not using negative terms
[00:20:00] <andypugh> Oh, and PCW, I heard a brief hint that 3x20 stopped working in 2.5, but then no more, so perhaps the guy found the error and didn't bother to say.
[00:20:33] <PCW> The reason we used negative terms is its a convenient way to reverse the feedback
[00:21:01] <emcrules_d510> PCW: sure
[00:21:21] <PCW> Ill have to try a 3X20 on the EMC test machine, haven't in a while
[00:21:25] <andypugh> Quack: Well, everything they mention sounds better than Bridgeport.
[00:21:36] <Quack> Well obviously it's NOT a bridgeport right?
[00:21:42] <Quack> It's a taiwanese made clone
[00:22:06] <andypugh> Well, yes, but that could go either way.
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[00:23:29] <andypugh> it might be better (because labour costs are lower, so they can spend the time to get it right) or worse (because they knock them out to a price, with no idea how machine tools are meant to work)
[00:24:11] <Quack> ahh ok
[00:24:15] <PCW> emcrules_d510 are you using the encoders velocity pin to feed the PID loop?
[00:24:21] <Quack> i called the machine shop headmaster at the local university
[00:24:34] <Quack> he said of all the bridgeport clones the Sharp ones he can say he recommends
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[00:26:11] <andypugh> All the mods they mention sound good. I could imagine them actually being better than Bridgeport can afford to make (and Bridgeport are _far_ from the acme of machine tool excellence, that is the ground held by Deckel, Societee Genevoise, Dean Smith and Grace, Monarch...)
[00:26:21] <morfic> PCW: you rock btw, appreciate your pin counting help ;)
[00:26:26] <emcrules_d510> PCW: i am now still get a jackhammer and it wont align
[00:26:56] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: What is your hardware?
[00:27:34] <emcrules_d510> Allen-Bradley tl a220 motor
[00:27:47] <Quack> ahh so Deckel is even better
[00:27:48] <emcrules_d510> Allen-Bradley 1000 ppr quad encoder
[00:28:28] <emcrules_d510> 165 dc bus borrowd from ah yep you guessed it allen bradley ultra 200
[00:28:58] <PCW> If you sen low P can you spin the motor continously?
[00:29:07] <PCW> s/sen/set/
[00:29:54] <emcrules_d510> Cant get it to align right now. let me drom max current
[00:30:35] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: You might need some experiments.
[00:31:13] <andypugh> I would say apply +5V to A/U and ground B/V and C/W
[00:31:31] <andypugh> (from a lab power supply, or a battery)
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[00:32:05] <andypugh> Mark the shaft/pulley and motor face. That is the zero assumed by bldc.
[00:32:14] <emcrules_d510> I was going to lock the rotor and mechanically align the index
[00:32:18] <PCW> What type of alignment are you using?
[00:32:34] <emcrules_d510> magnetic
[00:32:45] <emcrules_d510> iq config
[00:32:54] <emcrules_d510> brb
[00:35:09] <PCW> Yea a mark on the shaft and motor to check alignment (I think BLDC stays at the reference position long enough you can check)
[00:35:52] <emcrules_d510> I will try
[00:35:55] <andypugh> Now, set up a minimal config in halrun, just enough to read encoder position. Then setp encoder.N.index enable, and turn the motor shaft until index-enable resets, then carry on until the marks align. Look at the encoder counts, and that ought to be the encoder-offset. If magnetic alingment doesn;t get the same number, then magnetic alignement is broken, and you get double your money back, and the option to fix it.
[00:38:24] <emcrules_d510> HA HA
[00:40:13] <PCW> Andy have you changed BLDC significantly in the last couple of months?
[00:42:19] <PCW> On Monday if I get a chance I can try EMC 2.5/8I20 with a bare Parker 3 KW motor
[00:44:41] <emcrules_d510> I also have a few other motors to play with. this one is a .25KW. I have a 1KW and a 3KW and a fanuc red cap i'm picking
[00:45:10] <PCW> Seemed to work fine last time I checked (was able to tune bare motor to fair stiffness and stability (Parker 3KW, 1024line encoder 8I20 at 30A 4 KHz servo thread)
[00:45:47] <PCW> 320VDC
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[00:46:56] <PCW> (though the 8I20 is fairly independent of VBUS, it adjusts its current loop gain dynamically depending on VBUS)
[00:48:04] <PCW> Make sure you do not set the 8I20 max current higher than the peak motor current rating
[00:48:40] <PCW> a .25 KW 320V motor would be destroyed by 30A
[00:48:45] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: max current in hal is the max current setting on the 8i20 correct?
[00:50:02] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: Yes
[00:52:35] <andypugh> PCW: The only changes were to allow you to change something (can't remember what, probably encoder offset) live and to cope with the fact that "True" HAL pins can be any non-zero value, especially the ones from hal_parport.
[00:54:59] <andypugh> The latter is something you need to be careful with, if a = parport.N.pin-00-in and b = parport.N.pin-01-in then if both are "TRUE" then a == b is FALSE. (because a = 1 and b = 2)
[00:55:18] <andypugh> This changes in 2.6
[00:55:51] <PCW> Yeah would be better if they were normalized
[00:56:22] <PCW> I think all of our SSLBP stuff is -1 for true
[00:56:46] <andypugh> All Mesa pins are TRUE == 1, which is why it took me 2 years to notice.
[00:57:57] <andypugh> (And I sort-of like -1 == TRUE as that is what the ZX81 and Spectrum used (Waves at MattyMatt ) and does make you very resilient to single-bit errors.
[00:58:25] <PCW> How are they passed up to HAL that they can have numeric values?
[00:59:09] <PCW> U32s?
[01:00:09] <Quack> hey Danimal keep looking around for a used bridgeport for me
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[01:01:01] <danimal_laptop> Quack: why not get a cnc knee mill if you have room for a b-port?
[01:01:22] <Quack> well a b-port can be CNC'd later on
[01:01:29] <danimal_laptop> not worth it
[01:01:30] <Quack> some do say it's a bit tricky though
[01:01:47] <Quack> i figure i should get a manual mill first, do'nt ya think?
[01:01:56] <skunkKandT> cnc iron is cheap... sorry - what are we talking about?
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[01:02:19] <danimal_laptop> i guess.... it's good to learn to machine manually first
[01:02:32] <danimal_laptop> but you can probably find a cnc mill for the same price
[01:02:41] <Quack> that's surprising
[01:02:51] <andypugh> Currently they are INT, I think. Jepler changed it to _bool (a C99 type) last night in Master. With _bool 1==2 (which is good, in that context)
[01:02:52] <Quack> well not really THAT surprising
[01:02:58] <danimal_laptop> i just got a cnc mill for 1k
[01:03:05] <Quack> what brand
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[01:03:26] <danimal_laptop> kasoga or something of that sorts
[01:03:29] <danimal_laptop> japanese
[01:03:41] <danimal_laptop> almost the same as my shizuoka
[01:04:07] <andypugh> Quack: Bridgeport are the Myford of Mills, Nothing wrong with them, and a huge user base, but nothing special.
[01:05:01] <andypugh> (Actually, that flatters Myford, take that as a metaphor, not an opnion)
[01:05:02] <Quack> ahh i see, so you have a shizuoka manual mill
[01:05:09] <danimal_laptop> what is the Myford of bridgeports?
[01:05:13] <Quack> lol i have no clue what all these types are
[01:05:20] <danimal_laptop> its not a manual mill
[01:05:36] <Quack> what's the shizuoka? a CNC as well? you have two CNCs?
[01:05:41] <danimal_laptop> 4
[01:05:48] <Quack> can i buy one from ya
[01:05:50] <Quack> =p
[01:05:50] <danimal_laptop> no
[01:05:54] <Quack> kk
[01:06:04] <danimal_laptop> i need them for work!
[01:06:12] <ds3> aren't Myfords mainly on the other side of the pond thing (i.e. non US)?
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[01:06:29] <danimal_laptop> i have no clue what a myford is
[01:06:43] <danimal_laptop> is that like a mychevy?
[01:06:58] <ds3> it is another maker of mills and lathes...mostly lathes, IIRC
[01:07:04] <danimal_laptop> ah
[01:07:28] <Quack> danimal if you find a CNC for between $1k and $2k get it
[01:07:31] <Quack> or tell me about
[01:07:41] <Quack> if you get it i'll pay you that + 15%
[01:07:56] <danimal_laptop> im not getting it but i'll tell you about it
[01:07:57] <Quack> in the meantime i'll keep on searching myself
[01:07:58] <andypugh> danimal_laptop: Well, I don't think the metaphor is commutative. The Myford of Bridgeports is probabaly a Myford, or possibly a Rong Fu.
[01:08:04] <Quack> k
[01:08:41] <Quack> where did you find that kasoga and shizuoka danimal?
[01:08:55] <danimal_laptop> i have a taiwanese bridgeport called a millport
[01:09:05] <danimal_laptop> craigslist
[01:09:25] <danimal_laptop> it's an exact clone of a bridgeport, even the parts are interchangeable
[01:09:48] <Quack> there's a lot like that
[01:09:50] <Quack> Clark, Sharp, ec
[01:09:57] <danimal_laptop> however it's a little better than a b-port IMO, it has a 2 speed motor
[01:09:57] <skunkKandT> myford for some reason makes me think ford prefect should be using one
[01:10:01] <Quack> some aren't quite interchangeable though
[01:10:20] <Quack> Lagun is also a good brand
[01:10:21] <danimal_laptop> clarks and sharps are not clones, they're just knee mills
[01:10:29] <Quack> ahh ok
[01:10:35] <andypugh> ds3: Yeah, the Myford is the default model makers lathe in the UK. It's a 1950s design and they went bust this year. My opinion is that they were kept afloat by magazine articles which described how to make things on a Myford by about 20 years after their natural death.
[01:10:36] <danimal_laptop> mine is actually an exact replica, the same castings
[01:11:15] <danimal_laptop> even the writing is in the same font
[01:11:39] <andypugh> XYZ made some _very_ close copies.
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[01:12:22] <danimal_laptop> when i changed my feed nut, i just ordered a b-port one
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[01:12:34] <andypugh> Bridgeport are nice machines, but the Elliot I use of the same sort of size is nicer.
[01:12:44] <danimal_laptop> the power feed came off a b-port
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[01:13:15] <danimal_laptop> laguns are the best knee mills around here
[01:13:37] <Quack> really?
[01:13:46] <Quack> i see one on craigslist that has been on there for months
[01:13:54] <Quack> they keep reducing the price by $200 per week
[01:14:16] <andypugh> As far as I can tell, nothing made in the 1970s that has escaped the scrap bin is bad iron. However, most of the stuff you can buy new for less than $10k is rubbish.
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[01:14:21] <danimal_laptop> when it gets to 2k or less, buy it, assuming its on good shape
[01:14:41] <Quack> really ....
[01:14:46] <andypugh> Quack: Link
[01:14:49] <Quack> damn i should've jumped on that $800 one in irvine
[01:14:53] <Quack> it went quick
[01:15:01] <danimal_laptop> laguns are a little beefier
[01:15:05] <Quack> i talked to the guy and he said it was well used
[01:15:09] <Quack> but it was gone 3 days later
[01:15:11] <danimal_laptop> i think they have chromed box ways
[01:15:26] <danimal_laptop> the heads seem better as well
[01:15:30] <Quack> http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/bfs/2703654017.html
[01:15:34] <andypugh> Spanish, I believe?
[01:16:06] <danimal_laptop> yea, a amurican
[01:16:37] <danimal_laptop> if it's in good shape, 3k is a decent deal for that
[01:16:40] <andypugh> $3650 seems high, and the pictures make my neck hurt
[01:17:16] <Quack> it's been on there since september
[01:17:22] <Quack> i bet i could talk him down to $2k
[01:17:28] <danimal_laptop> i doubt it
[01:17:33] <danimal_laptop> maybe 3k
[01:17:46] <danimal_laptop> you'll have to wait a few more months for 2500
[01:18:14] <danimal_laptop> do you have a phase converter?
[01:18:31] <PCW> bbl ttgh
[01:18:41] <Quack> no not yet
[01:18:46] <Quack> those should be easy to get
[01:18:55] <danimal_laptop> i have a rotary one for sale
[01:18:58] <danimal_laptop> 3hp
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[01:19:11] <Quack> does it really work on residential 20a 120V
[01:19:24] <danimal_laptop> no, you need 220
[01:19:40] <Quack> i have that too i use my welder on 220V
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[01:19:56] <danimal_laptop> it works well on 220v
[01:20:59] <Quack> can i buy it for $130
[01:22:00] <danimal_laptop> no
[01:22:37] <danimal_laptop> it's a rotary, not static
[01:25:22] <Quack> damn those things cost a lot
[01:26:39] <danimal_laptop> yep, but they give you much better power than the static ones
[01:26:55] <danimal_laptop> it's pretty much full 3 phase
[01:27:34] <danimal_laptop> static ones reduce your power to about 75% i believe
[01:27:44] <danimal_laptop> rotary ones are damn near 100%
[01:27:53] <Quack> how much are you offering it up for?
[01:28:06] <danimal_laptop> i have it on cl for 300, make an offer
[01:28:16] <danimal_laptop> it's a roto-phase brand
[01:28:19] <Quack> k
[01:28:35] <andypugh> I offer $5, you pay postage :-)
[01:29:08] <danimal_laptop> andypugh: plus your mill
[01:29:16] <danimal_laptop> you pay postage on that
[01:29:33] <andypugh> A hard bargainer, I see. OK $7 and split the postage
[01:29:45] <danimal_laptop> bbl, time to go to stone and have a brewski
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[01:30:05] <andypugh> (actually, your puny 220V 3-phase is no good to me)
[01:30:07] <danimal_laptop> sold, just mail over that 7 dollars
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[01:37:12] <andypugh> pcw_home: You know, I am thinking that perhaps I obfuscated NVRAM writes too much, because I just caught myself out. I can read max current on 8E8, but I have a vague recollection I need to set a few more bits to write it. If I can't remember it, then perhaps it needs documentng.
[01:37:47] <Quack> dangit
[01:37:57] <Quack> so frustrated that danimal finds deals on craigslist but i don't
[01:38:05] <Quack> am i using the wrong keywords?
[01:38:16] <andypugh> Maybe
[01:38:39] <Tom_itx> but a grasshopper
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[01:39:20] <andypugh> Craigslist is approximately useless in the UK (you need to search a city, but I can walk to 5 of their "cities" from here, and am happy to drive to half of them)
[01:40:19] <A2Sheds> Quack: instead of ISO SWF, I'd try 'milling machine', 'metal lathe' etc :p
[01:40:43] <Quack> k
[01:41:27] <A2Sheds> many ads on Craigslist are poorly worded so it does take a bit of searching
[01:43:19] <A2Sheds> "mill" gets me about 200 hits for food grinders, woodworking tools, kitchen cabinets etc
[01:45:28] <andypugh> Quack: It's a bit vague but.. http://sandiego.craigslist.org/nsd/bar/2701307146.html
[01:46:36] <Quack> oh man that guys in a tough spot
[01:47:25] <andypugh> compact, no price: http://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/tls/2684044564.html
[01:49:00] <elmo40> does anyone have experience turning AR400 Wear plate? (or similar)
[01:49:18] <A2Sheds> http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/tls/2601169639.html looks like a mill/drill $400
[01:49:47] <A2Sheds> LAGUNA NIGUEL
[01:50:40] <andypugh> A2Sheds: Looks like an OK manual machine, but a very poor retrofit candidate.
[01:50:55] <Quack> very so-so
[01:51:06] <Quack> that one in los angeles looks old too
[01:51:19] <A2Sheds> the prices look high for everything I see in SouthernCal
[01:51:44] <andypugh> But I think Quack wants manual ( I am of the opinion that you need a grounding in manual before doing CNC, even if just a few hours)
[01:52:19] <andypugh> Because everyone in Southern CA is a film star and earning a million an hour?
[01:52:38] <Quack> i can go to arizona and look around too
[01:53:16] <Quack> http://tucson.craigslist.org/tls/2665574216.html
[01:53:54] <ds3> few hours? more like a few months
[01:54:28] <andypugh> Quack: That looks solid and clean
[01:56:30] <A2Sheds> http://ventura.craigslist.org/tls/2661848336.html SERVO PRECISION MILLING MACHINE - $2000 (VENTURA)
[01:56:57] <andypugh> Ooh! http://tucson.craigslist.org/tls/2701570789.html
[01:57:15] <Tom_itx> andypugh you gonna move to tucson?
[01:57:23] <Quack> what is that?
[01:57:28] <Quack> Andy ! what is it?
[01:57:28] <Tom_itx> tool changer
[01:57:38] <A2Sheds> i wonder if he will ship?
[01:57:46] <Tom_itx> maybe
[01:58:10] <andypugh> Quack: What was your budget again? http://tucson.craigslist.org/for/2664117669.html
[01:58:24] <A2Sheds> "Not sure what it is. Maybe you can use it." Love it!
[01:58:34] <Quack> i technically have $20k to spend
[01:58:46] <Quack> but i mean i want to use all that extra money for doing other things
[01:59:56] <andypugh> Check the ad..
[02:00:36] <A2Sheds> http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/tls/2702241449.html
[02:00:40] <andypugh> Mill, tooling, lathe, cutter grinder, compressor, cuotoff saw, 10k...
[02:01:53] <A2Sheds> what are CNC converted Bridgeports typically selling for?
[02:03:02] <andypugh> A2Sheds: Who cares, that 10k package is a bargain?
[02:04:47] <andypugh> I even see the broken lathe as a plus, less guilt about retrofitting.
[02:05:15] <Quack> how much does an Emco weigh
[02:05:38] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: is there a bug in the calibration screen in 2.5
[02:06:26] <A2Sheds> 250LBs
[02:06:37] <andypugh> Quack: Stuff the Emco. buy the servo lagun, and sell on the machines you don't want.
[02:06:58] <Quack> Stuff it meaning pass on it?
[02:07:15] <Quack> That guy may be willing to part with his servo Lagun for $3k
[02:07:23] <A2Sheds> yes, pass it up
[02:07:28] <Quack> but sounds like he wants to sell his whole shop all in one go
[02:07:57] <A2Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMCO-F1-CNC-Mill-XYZ-Cast-Iron-Retrofit-Project-/260791058866
[02:08:30] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: I don't know, I haven't used the calibration screen. I normally work at the command line in hal, often from a completely different machine because it has a comfy chair.
[02:09:32] <emcrules_d510> I get an error when i try to "save to file" i think it thinks "[AXIS2] is [Axis3]
[02:10:43] <emcrules_d510> error reports "cant read sectionarray[axis3] element dosent exist
[02:11:58] <A2Sheds> http://www.ebay.com/itm/CHEVALIER-CNC-VERTICAL-MILL-MODEL-DELTA-40-/120811992312?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c20f4b4f8
[02:12:18] <andypugh> Quack: Yes, but none of that stuff is junk. If I was anywhere near, and didn't already have a pile of machines, I would snatch his hand off. You could end up with all you want, and 15k of your 20k in your pocket after selling off the machines you don't want. Though I would say that keeping the whole lot would be good. I still do a lot more work on a lathe than a mill.
[02:12:59] <Quack> you make gears and such though
[02:13:12] <Quack> i want to do some thermal work
[02:13:28] <A2Sheds> that shop in AZ only mentions a mill and a lathe, the rest is mostly tooling
[02:13:29] <Quack> some thermal interfaces, etc
[02:13:38] <Quack> so i'd imagine i'd need more a mill for my work
[02:13:52] <Quack> it's a broken lathe too without a drive shaft or something
[02:14:30] <andypugh> As I said, to me a borked lathe == retrofit candidate.
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[02:15:09] <A2Sheds> Quack: see what shows up next week
[02:15:11] <andypugh> A2Sheds: Tool and cutter grinder, compressor and cut-off saw. Those are machines, not tooling.
[02:15:54] <A2Sheds> hey I'm not arguing, I'm a lover not a hater
[02:15:54] <Quack> thanks Andy you gave me some good insight
[02:16:10] <Quack> i'm driving back down to southern california now to keep looking there. no leads in the bay area so far
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[02:16:30] <Quack> also keep in mind i have place to put these items in the meantime
[02:16:39] <andypugh> A2Sheds: The Chevalier has a decent spec, (turcite ways) but the control is begging to be sold to an enthusiast and replaced by EMC2
[02:16:40] <Quack> it's my mom's garage we're talking about here
[02:17:26] <andypugh> Can you rent a lockup garage as a buffer store?
[02:18:10] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: ok so i checked where the index was on the encoder. and then did a alignment and there is a difference about 15 deg
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[02:18:38] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: Yeah, that won't help.
[02:19:13] <andypugh> (the question is, which is right? )
[02:19:39] <emcrules_d510> no torque on the shaft as well
[02:19:58] <A2Sheds> Quack: I'll make you a deal on a manual Cincinatti vertical mill, but I'm 2K miles from you :)
[02:20:19] <Quack> so
[02:20:24] <Quack> tehre's somethin called freight shipping
[02:20:32] <Quack> it's 400 bucks across the contintental US
[02:20:51] <Quack> i could rent a lockup garage yes i suppose
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[02:23:44] <Tom_itx> storing it isn't gonna get you much
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[02:28:13] <Quack> A2Sheds what's up with your mill bro?
[02:28:24] <Quack> where you at? New Jersey?
[02:29:26] <A2Sheds> Chicago
[02:31:19] <Tom_itx> lotsa machinery up there
[02:31:30] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: No torque at all?
[02:32:19] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: I found the deadband to be calibrated oddly, like 0.0001 was still too much. I have no idea what the units are.
[02:34:59] <Quack> A2Sheds u serious bro
[02:35:56] <A2Sheds> trying to find a pic
[02:36:07] <A2Sheds> it's the bridgeport copy
[02:37:13] <emcrules_d510> andy: nope
[02:37:43] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: did PCW say to use the velocity as feedback to the PID
[02:38:40] <andypugh> Not that I saw.
[02:38:50] <Tom_itx> i believe he did
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[02:39:22] <andypugh> Depends on what you want, I guess.
[02:39:26] <Tom_itx> <PCW> emcrules_d510 are you using the encoders velocity pin to feed the PID loop?
[02:40:43] <emcrules_d510> no im using position I thought PCW said to use velo
[02:41:29] <A2Sheds> http://imagebin.org/184707
[02:41:46] <emcrules_d510> I set it up the same way my other servo system is set up. also torque mode amps
[02:41:49] <andypugh> You could use two PID loops, a velocity loop fed by a position loop. You would need to be very sure that is what you wanted though.
[02:43:33] <emcrules_d510> I thought a simple position loop would work on the bench. I had it working on the bench last night but the shaft was springy at idle
[02:43:53] <andypugh> If you have set up an EMC2 servo axis, then you are ahead of me. I just created some software components that seemed to be necessary.
[02:44:21] <emcrules_d510> it would increment .100" .010" AND .001
[02:44:32] <Quack> Andy sounds like he knows control theory
[02:44:36] <emcrules_d510> MY BP IS SERVO
[02:44:55] <andypugh> But, I got less springiness with more P and less deadzone. But I need to remember how to reprogram the 8i20 current limit.
[02:45:07] <emcrules_d510> teco amps with a 7i43 and a 4 axis analog card
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[02:45:48] <emcrules_d510> i found that too but if the deadzone was too big it would start to walk away
[02:46:16] <emcrules_d510> and by too big i mean .001
[02:46:57] <Quack> A2Sheds you letting this bugger go for $1200?
[02:47:15] <andypugh> Quack: Yes, and in theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is. My job is control systems, but that doesn't mean I am up to speed with tuning machine tools.
[02:47:39] <Quack> you're a control systems engineer?
[02:47:45] <Quack> for what kind of systems?
[02:48:38] <andypugh> I program car ECUs, currently working on variable oil pumps, coolant valves and fuel lift pumps.
[02:49:03] <Quack> do you work for Rover group?
[02:50:53] <andypugh> But my PID controllers have P I and D derived from the product of three 3D maps (for example, the P I and D that work with 50C oil are totally wrong for 100C oil and laughably wrong for -30C oil. And they all need to reduce as engine speed increases. And they vary from car to car.
[02:51:17] <andypugh> No, I work for Ford.
[02:51:53] <Tom_itx> do they self tune them?
[02:52:00] <Tom_itx> as the temp rises
[02:52:05] <andypugh> No, I am cheaper :-)
[02:53:39] <Tom_itx> i hope you have the tuning process automated for the production line
[02:54:03] <andypugh> Pgain is Map(oil temp/engine speed) x Map(pressure demand / controller error) x Map(rate of change of torque request / engine speed)
[02:54:41] <andypugh> No, my job is to find a robust set of values that work in all vehicles.
[02:55:01] <emcrules_d510> andypugh: http://imagebin.org/184710
[02:55:25] <andypugh> But this does not mean I know anything about anything that actually moves...
[02:56:30] <A2Sheds> Quack: I PMed you
[02:57:14] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: Well, on the plus side, the LEDs all look good.
[02:57:51] <andypugh> emcrules_d510: What's you NV max current?
[02:58:08] <andypugh> How doe that relate to motor rating?
[02:58:34] <emcrules_d510> NV?
[02:58:56] <andypugh> non volatile memory
[02:59:30] <emcrules_d510> Don't know yet i have to make the cable still
[02:59:42] <andypugh> Which cable?
[03:00:25] <emcrules_d510> the DB9 to RJ45 to use the utill
[03:00:46] <emcrules_d510> or can NV current be viewed a different way?
[03:00:59] <andypugh> You can do it all in EMC2. Scroll right to the bottom of man hostmot2
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[03:01:35] <andypugh> Sorry, not right to the bottom, but close
[03:02:11] <andypugh> "Setting up Smart Serial Devices"
[03:02:16] <emcrules_d510> ah yes
[03:02:30] <emcrules_d510> so read the param for NV current
[03:02:52] <emcrules_d510> whats the addr? i guess i can check the man
[03:03:14] <andypugh> Luckily, that example is reading max current
[03:03:28] <emcrules_d510> http://imagebin.org/184711
[03:03:36] <emcrules_d510> thats my setup ^
[03:04:06] <pcw_home> When I mentioned velocity I meant using the encoder velocity to feed the PID (instead of DP/DT which is nasty)
[03:04:24] <andypugh> Though, there is another way. If you setp .....8i20.N.N.max_current to a huge value, there is a message in dmesg saying "don't be daft, you can have this much"
[03:05:57] <andypugh> Ah, yes, wasn't there an optional pin added a while back?
[03:09:28] <andypugh> OK, its 3am and I need to sleep. emcrules_d510 I do want to help, but we are basically both in the same position, rather than me being some sort of expert with all the answers. My motor got a lot better today, so I am confident that the truth is out there. Magnetic homing is the least-preferred method though. Its
[03:11:39] <andypugh> it's probably worth trying qi with that 15 degree encoder-offset (and try -15 degrees too, I am not at all sure which is subtracted/added to what). Also, it's in encoder counts, not degrees.
[03:12:05] <pcw_home> The other think about torque mode is the PID loop may need to run at faster than the default 1 KHz for a bare motor
[03:12:14] <pcw_home> thing
[03:12:59] <andypugh> Yes, I think my antiphase spinning motor is related to that.
[03:13:12] <andypugh> Talk more tomorrow.
[03:13:23] <Tom_itx> later today
[03:13:30] <emcrules_d510> picking up a new machine tomorrow
[03:13:37] <emcrules_d510> have a good night andy
[03:13:44] <emcrules_d510> talk to you soon
[03:14:01] <pcw_home> 'Nite all
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[03:16:04] <elmo40> do you need to match the VFD to a servo? or just sync them up... and, is this a decent price? http://qurl.org/wH1
[03:20:56] <elmo40> man, for a few hundred bucks you get an entire panel! http://qurl.org/xH1
[03:21:08] <elmo40> with MPG
[03:21:19] <elmo40> I like...
[03:26:08] <Tom_itx> rewire it?
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[08:07:21] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[08:14:41] <Quack> Hi Mr. Michel
[08:22:38] <Loetmichel> Quack: loetmichel is just a nick. (soldering Michael)
[08:23:03] <Loetmichel> my last name would be translated to beechwood
[08:23:06] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[08:35:45] <Quack> what?
[08:35:47] <Quack> beechwood?
[08:36:24] <Quack> Buchenholtz?
[08:42:12] <Loetmichel> Buchholz
[08:42:21] <Quack> Buchholz
[08:42:26] <Quack> lemme ask you is Nuske a german name?
[08:43:02] <Loetmichel> the ancestors of my wife have lived somewhere in a forest of beeches.
[08:43:42] <Loetmichel> ... and i have taken the name of my wife at wedding
[08:43:50] <Quack> lol oh ok interesting
[08:44:01] <Quack> lemme ask you is "nuske" a german name
[08:44:05] <Quack> or "jerske"
[08:44:17] <Loetmichel> hmm, nuske: not a common one
[08:44:33] <Loetmichel> jerske sounds more polish
[08:45:04] <Quack> lol i think i may be prussian then
[08:45:08] <Quack> or polish
[08:45:16] <Quack> my family is supposedly from a town called gedansk
[08:45:27] <Loetmichel> thats in poland
[08:45:36] <Loetmichel> ... now ;-)
[08:46:07] <Loetmichel> called "danzig" in germany ;-)
[08:46:30] <Loetmichel> the town
[08:46:34] <Quack> well it used to be germany right
[08:46:46] <Quack> my family speaks german
[08:46:52] <Quack> haha so i'm confused am i german or polish
[08:46:56] <Loetmichel> jeah, somwhre betwenn 1933 and 1945 ;-)
[08:47:28] <Quack> lol ok
[08:47:30] <Quack> i guess i'm polish
[08:47:41] <Quack> but german speaking polish
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[08:50:05] <Loetmichel> Quack: thats perfectly possible. 'cause there were german immigrants at all times in poland, and even russia
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[08:50:26] <Quack> hmm hahaha
[08:50:29] <Quack> doesn't matter
[08:50:36] <Quack> polish and german really are the same people aren't they
[08:50:44] <Quack> just speak different langauge
[08:50:44] <Mjolinor> :o
[08:50:47] <Loetmichel> there are whole towns in poland an the other countrys nearby which speak a ancient version of germ until today!
[08:50:57] <Mjolinor> shocked, you trying to start a war
[08:50:57] <Quack> interesting
[08:51:07] <Quack> lol they look all the same to me
[08:51:10] <Loetmichel> german
[08:51:35] <Mjolinor> nah, polish people don't walk like htey have a broom handle stuck where it would hurt msot people
[08:51:46] <Loetmichel> we're all caucasian in look so it is not distinguisable from the look
[08:51:52] <Quack> lol yeah
[08:52:05] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: and germans do?
[08:52:13] <Mjolinor> I didn't say that :)
[08:52:22] <Quack> i could be jewish for all i know
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[08:52:33] <Mjolinor> sorry, couldn't resist
[08:52:35] <Loetmichel> <- looking at his brown end... no, no broom stick there ;-)
[08:53:39] <Quack> lol german and polish are all the same bro, except polish make spicier sausage and germans make mild sausage
[08:54:35] <Mjolinor> german sausage is better
[08:54:36] <Quack> Mjolinor is from Poland?
[08:54:45] <Mjolinor> sausage, cars and weiss beer
[08:54:48] <Mjolinor> no
[08:54:49] <Quack> haha
[08:54:50] <Mjolinor> english
[08:54:53] <Quack> ahh ok
[08:54:53] <Mjolinor> that's even worse
[08:55:44] <Quack> the only thing worse is your nick
[08:55:59] <Quack> sorry if that's actually your last name
[08:56:01] <Loetmichel> hmmm, wasnt that thors hammer?
[08:56:26] <Mjolinor> on the grounds that it will start a long conversation about speelling I decline to answer
[08:56:52] <Mjolinor> its a nick that no one else has so I can usually use it without adding stupid numbers when I join a forum
[08:57:02] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[08:57:34] <Mjolinor> havng said that, for the first time ever it was declined when I joined XDA developers last week, I was shocked
[08:58:31] <Quack> what is XDA developers
[08:58:39] <Mjolinor> its an Android thing
[08:59:42] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[08:59:50] <Mjolinor> anyway, is there a document that covers the hardware for EMC like the EMC2_User_Manual.pdf
[09:00:19] <Mjolinor> I jsut want to know if I can assign the parallel port pins as they are described here http://pinouts.ru/ParallelPorts/ParallelECP_pinout.shtml
[09:00:31] <Loetmichel> having read that: i still think a chap tablet PC would be a good remote for EMC
[09:00:35] <Loetmichel> cheap
[09:00:40] <Mjolinor> i am jsut converting a denford orac
[09:01:03] <Mjolinor> I keep thinking about that, I bought 6 off ebay faulty and mended them all so I have a few lying around now
[09:01:08] <Mjolinor> maybe I iwll look into it
[09:01:27] <Loetmichel> just make it waterproof before using in a CNC
[09:01:28] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[09:01:50] <Mjolinor> dont need to for mine, I have a PCB cutter and a soon to be denford orac with no coolant
[09:02:18] <Mjolinor> wouldnt work too well full of brass or copper swarf though I dont suppose
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[09:02:47] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: if cheap enough to have a resistive display: why not?
[09:03:06] <Quack> what PCB cutter/router you use?
[09:03:24] <Mjolinor> well it started out life as a TEP educational machine
[09:03:36] <Loetmichel> i menan: my own CNC has no need for a remote... to small...
[09:03:51] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12180
[09:04:08] <Mjolinor> but it only had a solenoid on the Z axis and though it owuld cut tracks OK it would break drills so its in a million bits right now having a Z axis stepper put on it
[09:04:39] <Mjolinor> thats neat
[09:04:47] <Mjolinor> is it a proxxon spindle?
[09:05:07] <Mjolinor> no, dont think so
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[09:05:13] <Loetmichel> but the last one i buildt for my ex boss was a PIA because the keyboard cable was a little short: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5501
[09:05:13] <Quack> Dr. B's cute little PCB router
[09:05:24] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: it is
[09:05:32] <Mjolinor> ok
[09:05:52] <Mjolinor> I bought a proxxon PF230 ?? to CNC but this thing came up on ebay cheap
[09:05:54] <Loetmichel> but the "big" one from the BFW40
[09:06:06] <Mjolinor> and a proxxon KT70 table
[09:06:32] <Loetmichel> with 400W and the 43mm standard mount like any router motor
[09:06:40] <Mjolinor> I jsut swapped hte PF230 for this denford orac and a 3PH inverter
[09:06:51] <Loetmichel> the problem with the BFW40 is the 5000 rpm max
[09:06:57] <Quack> what did Michel's PCB router start out as?
[09:07:16] <Loetmichel> Quack: stock aluminium ;-)
[09:07:23] <Mjolinor> bauxite?
[09:07:29] <Loetmichel> its selfbuild
[09:07:29] <Mjolinor> mostly by the look of it :)
[09:08:12] <Quack> did you already have a mill before you made your PCB router?
[09:08:35] <Mjolinor> no
[09:08:41] <Quack> no i mean Michael
[09:08:49] <Mjolinor> I have a chester MF30 lathe / miller
[09:08:51] <Mjolinor> manual one
[09:08:57] <Loetmichel> yes
[09:09:07] <Loetmichel> its NOT my first one
[09:09:21] <Loetmichel> the first one was made entirely of perspex
[09:09:39] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=2859
[09:10:04] <Quack> wow that's KOOL Dr. B
[09:10:04] <Loetmichel> then there were some interations until i made the mini one ;-)
[09:10:15] <Quack> i want a replica of your mini one
[09:10:42] <Loetmichel> to expensive/to much work
[09:11:06] <Quack> if you were going to do PCB router what would you start with?
[09:11:15] <Quack> custom or buy a kit
[09:11:24] <Loetmichel> for my reqirements a gantry type is more suiting
[09:11:55] <Loetmichel> Quack: depends on your worshop/tools NOW
[09:12:05] <Quack> i have ZERO now
[09:12:09] <Quack> i have a hand drill
[09:12:10] <Mjolinor> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=5222 <<< what is that !!!
[09:12:10] <Loetmichel> hmm, tahts thin
[09:12:34] <Quack> that's the helicopter frame for his buddies RC? no?
[09:12:47] <Loetmichel> teh big gantry i have made entirely with a battery drill, somme hand tools (saw, file etc) and a lot of time ;-)
[09:13:18] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: the first version of helicopter frame i build
[09:13:32] <Mjolinor> ok
[09:13:58] <Loetmichel> later version which actually flight -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4790
[09:14:00] <Quack> did you require a CNC mill for the second version PCB Router 2.0, Dr. B?
[09:14:02] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4793
[09:14:12] <Loetmichel> i am no dr.
[09:14:35] <Loetmichel> and yes, the little mill was made on a big mill
[09:16:54] <Quack> which Big Mill do you have?
[09:17:05] <Mjolinor> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=4935
[09:17:06] <Quack> or just the pseudo mill (gantry router)
[09:17:12] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: thats me testing a freshly repaired helicopter of a friend (being the camera man, hence the shaky picture, such a quadcopter costs about 1000 eur) -> http://www.cyrom.org/MC/xphotorep_test.avi
[09:17:40] <Mjolinor> certainly a vriety of photographs in general :)
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[09:18:02] <Loetmichel> Quack: i havent one. as i build the small one i had access to a FP4 at work
[09:18:14] <Quack> wowz
[09:18:17] <Quack> i gotta get a FP4
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[09:18:44] <Quack> holy crap that's a Deckel
[09:18:47] <Quack> gotta be $$$
[09:19:06] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: yes, that website is mainly my picture dump
[09:19:32] <Loetmichel> ... and as i photograph EVERYTHING....
[09:19:33] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[09:19:56] <Loetmichel> Quack: used still much $$$ but woth the money.
[09:20:32] <Loetmichel> but you have to have a solid floor ;-)
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[09:20:42] <Quack> can't afford that
[09:20:48] <Quack> not until i'm 60
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[09:21:04] <Quack> pls Dr. B, make me a replica of yours
[09:21:13] <Quack> i'll pay you 1000 EU
[09:21:43] <Loetmichel> cant. have no access now to a big mill ;-)
[09:22:10] <Quack> darn that's too bad
[09:22:14] <Loetmichel> have to wait 'til my next gantry is operating
[09:22:18] <Quack> kk
[09:22:28] <Quack> very cute litlte PCB router
[09:22:30] <Quack> i love it
[09:23:28] <Mjolinor> http://www.mycncuk.com/forums/showthread.php/3753-TEP-educational-CNC-machine-using-TechCAD?p=24065#post24065
[09:23:33] <Quack> the cute factor makes me want it
[09:23:33] <Mjolinor> that one is theone I bought off ebay
[09:23:39] <Quack> i will put hello kitty stickers on it too
[09:24:15] <Quack> TEP educ
[09:24:22] <Quack> looks pretty boring and not cute
[09:24:32] <Mjolinor> it is very well made but very badly designed
[09:24:33] <Quack> although the box is nice to keep it quiet
[09:25:00] <Mjolinor> but for £200 I can't complain much
[09:25:02] <Loetmichel> my little one is sittin in my appartment
[09:25:05] <Quack> i wouldn't go within 10 feet of that one
[09:25:15] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12304
[09:25:26] <Quack> Michel if you give me your baby PCBRouter I will cherish it for the rest of my life
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[09:25:37] <Loetmichel> and with the BFW40 head on it it IS quiet
[09:25:38] <Quack> i will always feed it with Flat, Clean Copper PCBs and fresh bits
[09:25:58] <Loetmichel> but one has to have time 'cause the head can only make 5000rpm
[09:26:16] <Loetmichel> Quack: hrhr
[09:26:34] <Quack> if you ever put it up for sale, lemme know
[09:26:35] <Loetmichel> it is in use every few days, so no, i need it myself
[09:26:40] <Quack> OH I SEE
[09:26:46] <Quack> didn't know you make PCBs so much
[09:26:54] <Loetmichel> not only PCBs
[09:26:58] <Loetmichel> everyting
[09:27:18] <Loetmichel> engraving, milling, pcbs...
[09:27:19] <Quack> like what?
[09:27:24] <Quack> that little one?
[09:27:31] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=804
[09:27:32] <Quack> i can't believe you can miill with that little boy
[09:27:41] <Quack> little welpe
[09:27:52] <Quack> oh wow
[09:27:54] <Quack> nice PCB
[09:28:04] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=10495
[09:28:14] <Loetmichel> Aluminium
[09:28:28] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=8737 <- more aluminium
[09:28:33] <Quack> how much did it cost to make the Little Welpe?
[09:28:57] <Loetmichel> about 1000 eur in material and some hours on the big mill after work
[09:29:10] <Quack> wow ok
[09:29:27] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=11744 <- even with a vice
[09:29:32] <Mjolinor> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=7293
[09:29:41] <Mjolinor> that is exactly the same inverter that I jsut got
[09:29:55] <Mjolinor> do you control it with the 0-10 v analogue input?
[09:30:35] <Loetmichel> jes
[09:30:37] <Loetmichel> yes
[09:30:54] <Quack> so Geil
[09:30:55] <Mjolinor> ok, i was thinking about that, it seems to have an RS232 input too
[09:31:01] <Quack> Geil Little Welpe
[09:32:20] <Quack> maybe i should just get the darn Taiwanese Sable
[09:32:53] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=490 <- some copper
[09:33:31] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=382 ( gpu cooler)
[09:34:19] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/MC/hui-cp_fraesen.avi <- carbonfibre
[09:35:03] <Loetmichel> (me still in my dressing gown ;-)
[09:35:41] <Quack> Geil
[09:35:45] <awallin> call it a labcoat, that's much cooler
[09:36:13] <Loetmichel> awallin: was early in the morning, startet working before got dressed ;-)(
[09:36:49] <Quack> long video 33mins
[09:37:07] <Loetmichel> ?
[09:37:42] <Loetmichel> oh, right
[09:37:58] <Quack> it's very quiet
[09:38:16] <Loetmichel> its a centerplate for the helicopters
[09:38:38] <Quack> be careful carbone fiber is not good for the lungs
[09:38:56] <Loetmichel> as i said: the slow rpm of the head makes for a quiet machine
[09:39:16] <Loetmichel> i am smoking like a coal plant. so what...
[09:40:26] <Quack> should've been named Tabakholz
[09:40:58] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[09:41:47] <Loetmichel> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=9003 <- the centerplates complete
[09:42:31] <Quack> serh geil
[09:42:51] <Quack> i do rc airpllane and rc car
[09:44:01] <Quack> alright Holz gotta run
[09:44:10] <Quack> BHolz *
[09:44:12] <Quack> later
[09:44:18] <Quack> gutenacht
[09:45:36] <Loetmichel> gn8, Quack
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[10:00:57] <MattyMatt> Mjolinor: Denford Orac, the only lathe with free William Woolard :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV1bQeJ9tx4
[10:01:51] <MattyMatt> I kinda respect your desire not to hack in a parallel port, but it is the obvious thing to do
[10:07:59] <Mjolinor> would be nice if hte original ever worked like that for more than 5 minutes
[10:08:06] <Mjolinor> I don't know any that did :)
[10:08:37] <Mjolinor> the orac lathe is excellent quality and design but hte electronics were a joke fomr day one
[10:08:40] <MattyMatt> to avoid hacking on the PCB, you could get a chinese (dongguan aerospace specifically) TB6560 board and connect the motors to that
[10:10:25] <Mjolinor> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/110715151410
[10:10:31] <Mjolinor> that is my starting point
[10:11:17] <MattyMatt> yep good plan
[10:11:26] <Mjolinor> I seem to have access to most things I need fomr it, I need a PWM > DC thing that I ill make and the 24v 12v for the auto tool changer is all up in the air at the moment but Im sure I iwll get there if I have enough data lines on the parallel port
[10:11:44] <MattyMatt> I get the 4 axis boards myself, but it probably is worth the extra for the individuals + breakout
[10:12:48] <Mjolinor> and spares :)
[10:13:01] <Mjolinor> it seems these chips can be a bit flaky if you maltreat them
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[10:13:13] <Mjolinor> as I am only using 2 of the driver boards I can make a few mistakes :)
[10:13:31] <Mjolinor> if I use this pinout http://pinouts.ru/ParallelPorts/ParallelECP_pinout.shtml
[10:13:55] <Mjolinor> then I have exactly the right number of availabel pins provided I wired OR the emergency limit switches
[10:14:24] <MattyMatt> beware the pinouts are different of every model, so what you use is very dependent on that 5 way breakout
[10:14:37] <Mjolinor> so right now I am assuming that EMC2 can cope with that parallel port pinout assignment and all shoudl be good :)
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[10:15:10] <MattyMatt> yep, stepperconf/stepconf wizard lets you set up for any layout
[10:16:09] <Mjolinor> I think the auto tool changeer could be a headache, I cant find anyone that has used one with EMC2
[10:16:41] <Mjolinor> it is a DC motor that runs one way to rotate from a 24 volt supply then if you reverse it and change it to 12 volt it locks the tool
[10:16:52] <Mjolinor> going to be a bit of heaadache working that out methinks
[10:17:17] <MattyMatt> the electronics will be trickier than the software IMO
[10:17:26] <Mjolinor> yup
[10:17:38] <Mjolinor> I am already thinking it will need a PIC
[10:18:05] <MattyMatt> but as you have the original electronics, you can either hack into the logic level part of that board, or copy the circuit
[10:18:23] <Mjolinor> I am not sure I ahve hte electronics for the tool changer
[10:18:52] <Mjolinor> I have 2 oracs, one is complete with a manual tool, the other is sort of 50% with the tool changer fitted but not connected to anything
[10:19:07] <Mjolinor> also missing hte chuck and hte emergency stops for some reason
[10:19:24] <Mjolinor> as though soemone has started messing with it and given up
[10:19:46] <MattyMatt> no you won't need a PIC probably, emc2 can manipulate a couple of pins anyway you tell it to, in the HAL
[10:20:17] <Mjolinor> but I dont want to add a second parallel port because hte computer I intend to use has no slots
[10:20:26] <MattyMatt> only reason you'd need a pic is if you want to save IO pins
[10:20:33] <Mjolinor> and I think I wwill need soem input from the tool changer, not jsut outputs
[10:20:50] <MattyMatt> ah OK yeah pins may be a bit tight
[10:20:58] <Mjolinor> it is easier to use a pic than to change computers I think
[10:21:07] <Mjolinor> anyway, I enjoy pic programming
[10:21:08] <MattyMatt> but as that 5 axis breakout proves, you can squeeze 5 into 1 port :)
[10:21:43] <Mjolinor> I did a spread sheet of pin assignments and all is covered except any inputs I may need from the tool changer
[10:21:53] <MattyMatt> they probably have shared enable, and very few endstop inputs etc
[10:22:03] <Mjolinor> but I have also allowed 2 input pins for "HOME"! X and Y which I htink I may not bother with
[10:23:06] <Mjolinor> thinking about it I think HOME will be more harm than use because your starting point will always be fixed no matter what you are turning
[10:23:18] <Mjolinor> I think its better to manually home at the start
[10:23:37] <Mjolinor> at least until I get an auto feed chuck on it
[10:23:46] <MattyMatt> yeah and with a tool in the post, a lathe will always crash long before you reach the end of travel
[10:23:57] <Mjolinor> I have no use for this thing anyway :) it's only a matter of wanting to do the conversion
[10:24:06] <Mjolinor> too much time on my hands maybe :)
[10:24:31] <MattyMatt> aww. I really need a CNC lathe. my little one has no thread cutting
[10:24:51] <Mjolinor> get out there and find a orac :)
[10:24:55] <MattyMatt> I'm not in any position to make you an offer right now tho
[10:25:04] <Mjolinor> not selling :)
[10:25:10] <Mjolinor> they are out there if you look
[10:25:17] <MattyMatt> with 6 you could open a classroom
[10:25:22] <Mjolinor> I started looking maybe 3 months ago and in that time I have aquired 2
[10:25:34] <Mjolinor> one was 80£, not complete but with the tool changer
[10:25:52] <Mjolinor> the other stands me at £250 with a enw inverter thrown in
[10:26:35] <Mjolinor> I may look for a chuck then I can do both of them
[10:26:42] <Mjolinor> or a collett set if they are available
[10:27:10] <MattyMatt> if you don't want original kit they certainly are
[10:27:57] <Mjolinor> I think you would struggle to find a better candidate for EMC than a Denford Orac
[10:28:24] <MattyMatt> indeed. it's ready to go
[10:28:30] <Mjolinor> from a hobby perspective I mean
[10:28:48] <Mjolinor> I would like to find a Boxford Duet but they are too expensive
[10:29:12] <MattyMatt> I have to mount motors on mine. I deliberately bought one with no changegears because they'd get removed
[10:29:55] <MattyMatt> but right now I wish I had some threading ability :p I just got a cheap die set to get by
[10:29:59] <Mjolinor> http://www.lathes.co.uk/grayson/
[10:30:07] <Mjolinor> I was offered one of those yesterday for £100
[10:30:51] <MattyMatt> with a motor on?
[10:30:55] <Mjolinor> yes
[10:31:02] <Mjolinor> complete with all its backgears
[10:31:06] <MattyMatt> sweet
[10:31:11] <MattyMatt> better deal than mine
[10:31:20] <Mjolinor> I thoguht it was cheap but I dont need 4 lathes , I already have 3 :)
[10:31:27] <MattyMatt> I had to worry about collection distance tho at the time
[10:31:32] <MattyMatt> momma's little car
[10:33:16] <MattyMatt> even then, I hadn't realised how big Cheshire is
[10:33:32] <Mjolinor> :)
[10:33:42] <Mjolinor> that grayson is in rossendale
[10:33:49] <Mjolinor> not a milion miles fmor chessire
[10:34:02] <MattyMatt> which end of cheshire? :)
[10:34:18] <Mjolinor> norht past manchester, 40 km
[10:34:24] <Mjolinor> crap typing
[10:34:32] <Mjolinor> getting my worms muxe dip
[10:34:48] <MattyMatt> I'm the extreme northwest tip of ch. wallasey
[10:35:22] <Mjolinor> so clockwise round manchester then north up the M65
[10:35:47] <MattyMatt> yep doable, but I'm not in a position to get another one atm
[10:36:09] <Mjolinor> you dont want that really, look for an Orac
[10:36:36] <Mjolinor> they go for between 600 and 1500 on ebay which is stupid, they are out there from 100 to 200 pounds all day long
[10:36:50] <MattyMatt> I'm adding more wood to my mill now, so it'll be stiff enough to make metal parts for either the lathe I've got, or a scratchbuilt replacement
[10:37:21] <MattyMatt> how do you find them? ebay is my main source for everything
[10:37:32] <Mjolinor> tell everyone you know that you are looking
[10:37:43] <Mjolinor> go to second hand machine places
[10:37:51] <Mjolinor> jsaut generally get out there and look
[10:38:17] <MattyMatt> ah I can't really afford to put myself about much. everyone I know is either long way away, or a local deadhead
[10:38:17] <Mjolinor> ask any school techers you know as they were in all secondary schools up till a few years ago and now they have all been removed adn are stashed
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[10:39:19] <Mjolinor> go to a few local enbgineering firms, they took them and stashed them at he back of workshops intending to do thigns with them
[10:39:38] <Mjolinor> and they never did becasue if you left one in a workshop and didnt turn it on every day they broke down
[10:40:24] <Mjolinor> your typical machine operator / small engineering shop cannot mend htse things adn a CNC repair guy is a lot of £ per hour
[10:40:34] <MattyMatt> that's not a high recommendation for keeping the original electronics :)
[10:40:46] <Mjolinor> so they jsut sit until they need hte space then they are scrapped
[10:41:01] <Mjolinor> ther eis no recommendation for keeping hte original electronics
[10:41:10] <MattyMatt> mm, or they steal the chuck etc
[10:41:14] <Mjolinor> diabolical to use, totally unreliable
[10:41:47] <MattyMatt> I want to show my reprap to my old school. I don't know anyone there anymore tho
[10:42:05] <Mjolinor> :)
[10:42:27] <Mjolinor> I was thinking about making a reprap but there are such conflicting reports about the quality you can get out of them
[10:42:40] <Mjolinor> they seem to be extremely fiddly
[10:42:53] <MattyMatt> quality is improving rapidly but yeah they are fiddly
[10:43:17] <Mjolinor> there was a makerbot on ebay a few months ago
[10:43:29] <MattyMatt> avoid makerbots
[10:43:39] <Mjolinor> went very cheap becasue the guy selling it wrote an A4 page on how crap they were :)
[10:44:37] <MattyMatt> well makerbot have a great salesman in the company, so everyone else feels the need to compensate >:)
[10:47:05] <MattyMatt> the latest reprap designs are getting stiffer. one is made from t slot extrusion, and I'm drawing up a concrete base version
[10:47:50] <Mjolinor> I was thinking htat there is no real reason why my XY PCB mill couldnt have an extrusion head on it
[10:48:10] <MattyMatt> none at all, that looks ideal
[10:48:12] <Mjolinor> I only hve 18mm vbertical on it but it could sitll do a lot I htink
[10:48:31] <MattyMatt> a bit slow with leadscrews tho, unless they're very high pitch ballscrews
[10:48:31] <Mjolinor> I only have 18mm vertical on it but it could still do a lot I think
[10:49:04] <Mjolinor> good point, ther eisa minimu I suppose when blowing plastic out of a hole
[10:49:13] <Mjolinor> could get very messy if oyu dont move fast enough :)
[10:49:26] <MattyMatt> not really that, just print times
[10:49:52] <MattyMatt> the extrusion rate is controllable too, so you can print as slow as you like
[10:50:01] <MattyMatt> but it takes hours sometime
[10:50:18] <Mjolinor> but it seems very critical to make it fuse to the previous layer
[10:50:52] <Mjolinor> I jsut had a quote for making a clamp form plastic, first prototype £1000
[10:51:00] <MattyMatt> that's not a problem, getting it to fuse to bed is more of one
[10:51:04] <Mjolinor> you can go a long way to setting up for making your own for that price
[10:51:27] <MattyMatt> have you tried shapeways?
[10:51:40] <Mjolinor> jsut tried local companies around burnley
[10:51:56] <Mjolinor> £1000 for the first adn £150 for the next 15
[10:52:01] <Mjolinor> each
[10:52:05] <MattyMatt> shapeways start at $1.50 per cc
[10:52:18] <MattyMatt> 1.5 somthings anyway maybe £1.50
[10:52:37] <Mjolinor> I emailed them actuyally
[10:52:43] <Mjolinor> sent drawings and asked for a price
[10:52:48] <Mjolinor> never got a reply
[10:53:28] <Spida> Mjolinor: no reply from shapeways?
[10:53:30] <Mjolinor> I think I did, it gets confusing
[10:54:43] <Mjolinor> not sure I did now, I remember the site
[10:54:57] <Mjolinor> I emailed loads of people asking for prices jsut from googling
[10:55:15] <Mjolinor> England used to be so easy to get things made but now it is really hard
[10:55:26] <Mjolinor> I am not surprised people go to china for things, its so easy to do
[10:56:00] <Mjolinor> I made this fopr utility use adn need to turn it into a product now
[10:56:02] <Mjolinor> http://81.110.238.61/index_ixp.html
[10:56:26] <Mjolinor> its a small clamp thing that clips on cables to measure current and temperature of the cable
[10:56:53] <Spida> missing some semicoli ";" in the &nbsp;
[10:56:56] <Spida> :-)
[10:57:21] <Spida> do you have actual pictures of the part?
[10:57:31] <Mjolinor> me and HTML are sor fo mutually exclusive :)
[10:58:40] <Mjolinor> hmm, apparenlty not, ther eused ot be a picture on there
[10:58:45] <Mjolinor> I will go and look
[10:58:49] <MattyMatt> I think there is a small manufacturing sector thriving under a stone somewhere locally, but I haven't got an "in" yet
[10:59:47] <MattyMatt> when my mill is fit for metalwork, I'll go around selling my CNC programming services
[11:01:48] <Mjolinor> http://81.110.238.61/explode.jpg
[11:02:39] <Mjolinor> that is an old picture of what I need, it has changed since hten but I dont have a newer one
[11:02:48] <MattyMatt> you'd never do that on a current reprap
[11:02:55] <Mjolinor> :)
[11:03:18] <MattyMatt> but shapeways use a zcorp SLS printer, they can do any complex shape
[11:05:29] <MattyMatt> not as strong as moulded or milled parts, but I'm guessing for clamping around a cable it'd be fine
[11:06:18] <Mjolinor> not so sure about that, this thing sits on the end of a 4 metre rod to fasten it to live cables
[11:06:38] <Mjolinor> so the feedback to the guy screwing it up isnt good and linesmen are pretty heavy handed anyway
[11:06:56] <MattyMatt> we'll be trying delrin in our repraps real soon now
[11:07:01] <Mjolinor> you need a factor of 10 on mechanical strength jsut to satisfy the ham fisted fitter :)
[11:09:59] <MattyMatt> well I gotta go use the daylight. bbl
[11:15:37] <MattyMatt> the_wench tell AndyPugh http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Equipment/LaserCutter
[11:16:09] <MattyMatt> does the_wench do errands?
[11:16:42] <MattyMatt> I'll tell him myself tonight, if he doesn't see his name flagged in the logs
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[12:09:54] <pookey> hi all - /part
[12:09:58] <pookey> erm.. fail :)
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[12:12:27] <Loetmichel> what was THAT?
[12:14:27] <Mjolinor> a small disturbance in the fabric of the universe
[12:15:56] <Jymmm> a stoner drive by
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[12:28:48] * Loetmichel will go outside now, changing the tyres of my car to "winter".
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[12:38:03] <DaViruz> i did that yesterday
[12:38:17] <DaViruz> it seems winter is catching up at last
[12:52:46] <Loetmichel> so, lat 2 tyres changed. now i have to refill air on the way to work ant the winter can arrive ;-)
[12:52:56] <Loetmichel> s/lat/last
[13:01:17] <Loetmichel> hmm, whats the right proverb for "if you cant stand the heat: dont work in a forgery!"?
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[13:20:51] <Jymmm> If you cant stand the get, get out of the kitchen.
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[13:30:20] <Loetmichel> ah, i see
[13:30:22] <Loetmichel> thy
[13:30:40] <Mjolinor> very alien to me the though tof having to change ones tyres between winter and summer
[13:31:01] <Mjolinor> must be a drag ahving tyres hanging about all the time not being used
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[13:32:42] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: one CAN buy "all weather" tyres over here , too
[13:33:02] <Mjolinor> or alternatively one could live in a climate where one tyre suits all :)
[13:33:10] <Loetmichel> but they are a compromise and expensive
[13:33:27] <Loetmichel> and dont last as long as seperate summer/winter tyres
[13:33:34] <Mjolinor> mind you there is nothing screeches to a halt quite like england does when it snows for 5 minutes
[13:33:43] <Loetmichel> hrhr
[13:34:03] * Loetmichel drives an Opel Omega. Front motor back drive...
[13:34:59] * Mjolinor drove a Merc, front motor back drive but sold it and doesn't have anything except his Prius now :(
[13:35:09] <Mjolinor> which basically means that in snow one stays at home
[13:35:15] <Loetmichel> ant i used to live in Wuppertal, where is NO road level. it goes up and down like 30°
[13:35:37] <Loetmichel> and i had/have NO problems with snow <20cm ;-)
[13:36:09] <Mjolinor> before the last 2 years we have had no snow for over 10 years worth talking about
[13:36:18] <Loetmichel> ... unlike some other germans who drive like crazy if 2 snowflakes in sight ;-)
[13:36:27] <Mjolinor> so there have been a lot oof new drivers on the road that have never driven in snow
[13:36:42] <Mjolinor> produces good you tube content
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[15:01:11] <thomax> hi
[15:05:08] <Loetmichel> re @ work
[15:05:16] <thomax> do you know if this controller http://tinyurl.com/bvysqvw is ready to work eith emc2 ?
[15:08:01] <Mjolinor> cant see any reason why not but without more technical info you can't be sure. It also seems to me to be a tad more expensive than other options but it depends what hte steppers are as to whether or not that is true
[15:09:18] <thomax> this is a kit to make a proxxon mf70 cnc ready (mach3 normaly)
[15:09:55] <Mjolinor> if mach3 runs it then EMC2 will also run it
[15:10:07] <Mjolinor> except EMC2 is easier :)
[15:10:13] <thomax> :-)
[15:10:43] <Loetmichel> thomax: the MF70 CNC kit I know are lpt port. so yes, emc should run with them
[15:10:45] <thomax> you think i could give it a try?
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[15:11:20] <Mjolinor> you should
[15:11:47] <Mjolinor> I bought a kt70 and a pf230 to CNC them but managed to get a machine already done for little money sop never got round to it
[15:12:10] <thomax> i would also make my own mill but there are not very detailed diy instructions available (for mechanic and electronic)
[15:12:43] <Loetmichel> the mach3-xml is for parallel port
[15:12:48] <Loetmichel> on that site
[15:12:58] <Mjolinor> well if you dont want to bpother much with all that then that conversion should be fairly straightforward
[15:13:07] <Mjolinor> and marchant dice are below average on prices generally
[15:13:34] <thomax> yes. parallel, there is also a pdf with the connection description and a photo of the board
[15:13:55] <Mjolinor> I think they stick a lot of stuff on ebay so maybe you would be better watchign that for a few days, you may get one form them a lot cheaper
[15:15:03] <Loetmichel> thomax: if its parallel it woill work with emc2
[15:15:11] <Mjolinor> http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/marchantdice/m.html?hash=item336e73b13e&item=220896407870&pt=UK_BOI_Metalworking_Milling_Welding_Metalworking_Supplies_ET&_trksid=p4340.l2562
[15:15:14] <thomax> beside other things i like to make pc boards with the mill, i think a mf70 is enough
[15:15:38] <Mjolinor> i thought so too when I was considering making one
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[15:16:42] <Mjolinor> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-axis-Kit-Drivers-Interface-CNC-Kit-3-MDL-A4-Proxxon-/310342883920?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4841e09a50
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[15:17:01] <Mjolinor> they offer a kit with the cheaper controllers that you can get on ebay for little money
[15:18:38] <thomax> oh, i see
[15:19:09] <thomax> for me it's important it works with emc2 because i never used windows before.
[15:19:17] <Mjolinor> it will
[15:19:38] <Mjolinor> if it is parallel port driven then EMC will work with it whatever it is
[15:20:08] <Mjolinor> from ebay you will pay about £25 for the parallel breakout board then about £25 for each stepper driver baord
[15:20:13] <thomax> sure? i mean.
[15:20:35] <Mjolinor> after that you need the stepper motors which will cost maybe £10 to £25 each depending on what you go for
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[15:21:25] <Mjolinor> emc allows you total access to each pin on the parallel port to assign it as you want to with no limitations other than those imposed by the parallel port specification
[15:22:25] <thomax> but even these gives me endless possibilities to fail :-)
[15:23:02] <Mjolinor> :) there are endless possibilities for falure :) but it does not get easier than emc, it is a lot harder with mach3, I tried both
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[15:23:51] <thomax> and emc is a good piece of software, afaik. it looks very solid.
[15:24:38] <Mjolinor> seems that way to me also though I am no expert on it
[15:26:00] <skunkKandT> EMC rules!!
[15:26:01] <Loetmichel> thomax: mf70 would be too small for me.#
[15:26:12] <skunkKandT> sorry. Too early yet for me.
[15:26:26] <Loetmichel> i want AT LEAST 200*100 travel
[15:27:28] <Loetmichel> Mjolinor: disagree
[15:27:53] <Loetmichel> mach3 has a really good wizard for configuring the ports
[15:28:16] <Loetmichel> nearly as good as the emc2 one ;.)
[15:28:17] <thomax> Loetmichel: but with such a small mill you could bootstrap a larger one, or not?
[15:28:32] <Loetmichel> thomax: more or less
[15:28:48] <Loetmichel> normally you need a LARGER mill to build one
[15:29:56] <Loetmichel> but if you buy ready for use linear rails you may get away with just attachments to manufacture yourself (like bearing blocks and so on)
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[15:30:16] <danimal_laptop> mornin
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[15:32:37] <thomax> ok, need to go to the grocery now and make me my mind.
[15:32:49] <thomax> thanks for now.
[15:40:14] <Mjolinor> I struggled with Mach3
[15:40:32] <Mjolinor> but I always struggle doing anytign with Micro$haft software
[15:40:41] <Mjolinor> Windows is so hard to use
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[16:42:34] <skunkKandT> is it bad that you posted in a thread that you don't remember posting in at least 2 times before?
[16:44:18] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: Not as bad as forgetting to pay me back for that $100 you borrowed from me
[16:44:37] <skunkKandT> heh - that isn't nice
[16:45:08] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: It's okey, I forgive you. When are you sending me my $100?
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[17:05:50] <awallin> hm git.linuxncnc.org isn't very fast, I'm getting 80KiB/s with "git clone"
[17:06:27] <psha> probably it need repacking
[17:06:59] <awallin> I'm now at 50% and 24Mb. is that normal?
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[17:08:10] <psha> dunno :)
[17:22:02] <awallin> so I'm getting this: configure: error: Tcl and Tk versions must be the same, but configure found
[17:22:02] <awallin> Tcl 8.5 and Tk 8.4. You can use --with-tkConfig= and --with-tclConfig=
[17:22:02] <awallin> to override the autodetected versions.
[17:22:23] <awallin> I have both 8.5 and 8.5 of tcl and tk installed
[17:22:38] <awallin> what should I put after --with-tkConfig ?
[17:24:19] <awallin> oh, removing 8.4 seems to have fixed the problem. configure now runs until the end
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[17:31:20] <awallin> and now I'm getting: objects/hal/user_comps/modbus.o: In function `modbus_connect_rtu':
[17:31:20] <awallin> /home/anders/Desktop/emc2-dev/src/hal/user_comps/modbus.c:944: undefined reference to `g_print'
[17:31:36] <awallin> I have both libgtk2 and libgtk3 and their -dev packages installed
[17:33:30] <skunkKandT> Yay - cycle start on the other side of the machine is hooked up.
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[17:35:31] <Jymmm> PANDUIT!!!!!
[17:36:50] <skunkKandT> Jymmm: no electrical issues
[17:38:28] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: How would you know, you can't remember anything anymore =)
[17:38:36] <skunkKandT> heh
[17:43:56] <skunkKandT> sucked having to walk all the way around the machine after loading a part. That is a long walk :)
[17:51:36] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: Did you forget your way and get lost going to the other side of the machine?
[17:52:09] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: Do you need "You are Here" signs around your machine?
[17:54:11] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: day-glow directional arrows paint on the floor?
[17:54:27] <skunkKandT> I work well with visiuals
[17:54:36] <Jymmm> skunkKandT: Emergency exit signs?
[17:55:09] <Jymmm> "...above the wings"
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[18:46:19] <Loetmichel> re @ home
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[19:29:39] <pcw_home> hot gurl from classic computer list:
[19:29:40] <pcw_home> http://www.pixiv.net/member_illust.php?mode=medium&illust_id=16362209
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[21:32:59] <EmcPT> Hello? First time here, not sure if this works. Used IRC long, long before ...
[21:34:02] <Tom_itx> works
[21:34:11] <Tom_itx> weekends are slow
[21:34:19] <Tom_itx> have patience
[21:34:50] <EmcPT> Good. Not sure if I can ask some questions or if this is only for expert users.
[21:35:26] <awallin> just ask.
[21:35:49] <Tom_itx> you become an expert here
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[21:36:53] <EmcPT> Thank you. I am in Portugal. I have designed some machines in the last years, some using Mach3.
[21:38:11] <EmcPT> But for turning, Mach3 is not so good, so I am trying to find another solution and looking for EMC. I have also asked a few questions in cnczone, so now I have a slight idea about EMC.
[21:38:25] <Tom_itx> you need not look further
[21:38:30] <Tom_itx> you have found your answer
[21:39:02] <EmcPT> Uhmm, I am feeling like I am discovering the Matrix ...
[21:41:03] <EmcPT> I am a user of Fanuc machines in both lathes and machining centers, and in the design that I am currently doing I basically need a stable system.
[21:41:31] <EmcPT> That I am not getting with Mach3 8
[21:41:41] <Tom_itx> what sort of hardware?
[21:42:06] <EmcPT> ac servos/ballscrews
[21:42:06] <Tom_itx> what sort of interface?
[21:42:28] <EmcPT> interface?
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[21:42:41] <Tom_itx> there are a number of cards available to interface to the drivers to make your life alot easier
[21:42:55] <Tom_itx> mesa is probably the most popular and has really good support here
[21:42:57] <EmcPT> the mesa and the pico, I believe?
[21:43:19] <Tom_itx> http://www.mesanet.com/
[21:43:21] <Tom_itx> yes
[21:44:14] <Tom_itx> look under 'anything io fpga cards'
[21:44:24] <Tom_itx> and the daughter cards that go with them
[21:45:52] <EmcPT> My current consern, is the stability of the hole system. Basically I need a good system. I am full of unpluging, pluging, testing, then are a lot of features that are not implemented, and so on in Mach3 that the final machine is always cripled due to the controller.
[21:46:55] <Tom_itx> it takes some tuning but you can do just about anything you want with emc
[21:47:08] <EmcPT> A fanuc controller would cost about 13000 euros and a siemens 10000 euros. But they are good and will work for sure.
[21:47:57] <EmcPT> If I can get EMC to work - stable - then that would be something to test.
[21:48:37] <Tom_itx> download the live cd and have a look at it
[21:48:46] <EmcPT> 13000 euros - includes servos, spindle, cables, servos drives, power supply and so on.
[21:48:52] <Tom_itx> run a latency test on your pc and see how suitable it would be
[21:49:02] <Tom_itx> emc is free
[21:49:12] <Tom_itx> mesa cards are quite reasonable
[21:49:39] <EmcPT> CD - I did and I was quite suprised that the install went without issues
[21:49:41] <Tom_itx> alot of varied support here for many different types of systems
[21:50:27] <Tom_itx> you don't necessarily need a 'fast' pc but one with low latency
[21:50:39] <Tom_itx> i'm using an atom board for my little mill
[21:50:44] <Tom_itx> running a stepper system
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[21:51:10] <Tom_itx> andypugh is the chief driver debugger here
[21:51:13] <Tom_itx> :)
[21:51:18] <skunkKandT> heh - no pressure
[21:51:20] <andypugh> Impressive skill at painting. http://www.snotr.com/video/7721/Painting_the_fuel_tank_of_a_Royal_Enfield_Motorcycle
[21:51:21] <Tom_itx> good he happened to show up just now
[21:51:44] <andypugh> No, I write the bugs, other folk get the fun of fixing them.
[21:51:53] <skunkKandT> EmcPT: there are a lot of lathe conversions done with emc. People seem really happy with it.
[21:51:58] <EmcPT> Max latency on the test I did was 8000 if I remember. That is quite good (support). I will now go more specific, if anyone can help me on hardware.
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[21:52:10] <Tom_itx> that's pretty good
[21:52:28] <Tom_itx> you need to tell us the servos etc you have
[21:52:32] <skunkKandT> EmcPT: that is really good for steppers - for analog control of servos - that is super super awesom
[21:52:34] <Tom_itx> the encoders etc
[21:52:43] <danimal_laptop> JT-Shop: going to take some pictures of the grinder for you
[21:52:46] <danimal_laptop> bbl
[21:54:17] <EmcPT> 3 servos drives + 1 spindle + 24 inputs + 10 outputs. Those are my requirements.
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[21:55:29] <Tom_itx> someone here will be able to point you in the right direction
[21:55:37] <Tom_itx> i'm not as familiar with servos
[21:55:54] <EmcPT> Spindle currently I am using a AC motor (5.5Kw) controlled by a VSD. What are other options?
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[21:56:18] <Tom_itx> the more info you give us the better to understand what you have and need
[21:56:57] <Tom_itx> but like i said, the weekends are a bit slow here
[21:57:11] <awallin> EmcPT: the mesa fpga cards are popular, have you looked at them?
[21:57:14] <Tom_itx> so hang around a while
[21:57:30] <Tom_itx> awallin, he's wanting to know which ones he may need
[21:57:40] <Tom_itx> i just suggested them to him
[21:58:00] <awallin> the fpga is pretty generic. the amps need to be matched to the motors
[21:58:09] <EmcPT> Ok servos are fine to me. Just not sure where the encoders go. Currently they end on my servo drives, but EMC can close the loop, so they will end on the mesa card I believe.
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[21:58:22] <Tom_itx> right
[21:58:39] <EmcPT> Servos drives and motors they are no issue.
[21:58:48] <awallin> EmcPT: if you have good servo drives then you can wire them to emc only for "monitoring", not closing the loop
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[21:59:30] <EmcPT> Then I would have someting similar to what I have now.
[21:59:37] <EmcPT> And I want more.
[22:00:21] <EmcPT> I do not want that the DRO change on the screen and that the machine is not moving, like I would have now.
[22:00:29] <EmcPT> for example.
[22:00:56] <Tom_itx> that wouldn't be very helpful
[22:01:03] <awallin> the mesa card will give you step-rates much beyond the parallel port. and the dro can be wired to show actual machine position
[22:01:58] <EmcPT> That is what I need. Just not sure what to get to be able to have the 3 servos + spindle + inputs and outputs.
[22:02:57] <elmo40> EmcPT: you already have these servos, spindle and stuff? or going to get them.
[22:03:13] <awallin> the mesa card alone is digital (TTL) output. if your servo drives and VFD take digital inputs then you don't need much else
[22:04:28] <EmcPT> servos + drives I have. Spindle I am currently using a VSD that can receive for example 0-10VDC to obtain control over the output frequency.
[22:05:04] <awallin> if you want the analog 0-10V you need an extra DAC from mesa or someone else
[22:05:27] <awallin> and you might want an encoder on the spindle for rigid tapping...
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[22:06:03] <EmcPT> I just not want to make a bad decision because things that I have. I prefer to give more money, but at the end say that I went the right path. Currently with Mach I made a bad choice.
[22:06:31] <EmcPT> Spindle is a issue for me. What do you people use?
[22:07:20] <awallin> is it a simple/cheap V/F VSD? the newer "vector-drive" ones are much better? and a new one usually takes digital input (quadrature, or step/dir) so no need to mess with noise-prone analog voltages
[22:08:31] <EmcPT> It is new (Mitsubishi) but I am unaware that it can take digital inputs ... New models are often with that?
[22:09:09] <andypugh> EmcPT: Cheapest for what you want is probably a Mesa 7i43 + 7i33TA for the servo control + 7i37, but that only gives you 8 outputs and 16 inputs (however, that is not including the encoder and servo pins in the IO count. I am not sure if you were)
[22:09:47] <andypugh> I haven't noticed any problem driving my VFD with analog.
[22:10:43] <EmcPT> That would be great (spindle). Currently I have big variations on the spindle output (+-1.5Hz) as it is controled by analog converted after a steps/direction.
[22:11:01] <awallin> andypugh: would you really recommend hanging an fpga off the parallel port? I'd go with PCI or PCIe 10 times out of 10 :) (ok so it's slightly more expensive...)
[22:11:43] <andypugh> awallin: I have a 7i43 on my lathe, works a treat.
[22:11:57] <andypugh> (And makes for easy cabling)
[22:12:40] <EmcPT> Step rate for me must be arround 200Khz. Not sure but I think to much for the parallel port.
[22:13:07] <awallin> EmcPT: since you are in portugal, you know there is a re-seller of mesa in europe. was it czech ?
[22:14:27] <awallin> EmcPT: here's a drawing of my machine from 2008 with the 5i20: http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/09/servo-setup/
[22:15:31] <andypugh> Ah, actually, now I have spotted it, the combination of 5i25 + 7i77 looks like a winner for this application. 6 channels of analog for the servos and spindle, 6 encoder counters and 48 channels of IO. No sign of a price though.
[22:16:20] <EmcPT> I do not know about resellers - did not get until that point. Just trying to get the hardware and to decide if EMC can be someting to bet on.
[22:16:38] <andypugh> EmcPT: The FPGA card makes the steps, at up to 10Mhz. The parallel port just tells if how fast to send them, with a new rate every mS
[22:17:13] <andypugh> pcw_home: How much is the 7i77?
[22:18:07] <EmcPT> awallin: The M5i20 is for
[22:18:10] <EmcPT> PCI?
[22:18:18] <awallin> I'd get a VFD that takes digital input and forget about analog..
[22:18:26] <andypugh> The 5i25 is a low-profile PCI card that connects to the daughter cards with a single DB25 lead, so is as easy to cable as the 7i43, but PCI not Parallel
[22:18:56] <andypugh> awallin: I thought there were servo drives too?
[22:18:57] <awallin> EmcPT: yes. the 5i20 was one of the first ones supported by emc2. They might have a PCIe one now also.
[22:19:21] <awallin> digital for the servo drives too! (step/dir or quadrature)
[22:19:28] <andypugh> Eeeew!
[22:19:37] <EmcPT> Well now I am lost...
[22:19:57] <EmcPT> I'd get a VFD that takes digital input and forget about analog..)
[22:20:02] <awallin> if they are new high performance drives it is just as well to let them close the loop.
[22:20:05] <EmcPT> This is a good ideia
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[22:20:57] <vitaeear> hi EmcUsers, for my next spindle drive , i will use this beast. http://www.leroy-somer.com/notices_internet/select_vv_digidriveSK.html it is expensive but , you can do everything , just take a look .i have installed around 100 of the older generation , they were very very good!! with a modbus link.
[22:21:07] <EmcPT> EMC must close the loop. When I said this is a good ideia was about the VFD.
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[22:23:34] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: HEY! LTNS!!!
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[22:24:13] <jmkasunich> hi Jymmm
[22:24:30] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Hows things going?
[22:24:34] <jmkasunich> busy
[22:24:49] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Is that a good thing?
[22:24:56] <jmkasunich> well....
[22:25:05] <jmkasunich> some things are good, some are just work
[22:25:20] <Jymmm> well work is still a four letter word =)
[22:25:37] <jmkasunich> the fun project (and the reason I'm on here) is that I'm working with some guys from a local university
[22:25:45] <jmkasunich> on a project that will be using emc's HAL
[22:25:56] <EmcPT> andypugh: Would your recomendation of the 5i25 + 7i77 would be able to handle the 3 servos and spindle ?
[22:26:04] <jmkasunich> we're going to be "flying" a prop for a performance
[22:26:22] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: ah, very cool.
[22:26:36] <jmkasunich> three winches controlling three lines leading to the prop, with "tripodkins"
[22:26:48] <andypugh> Yes, it can handle 6 servos (you would use one of the analogs as a spindle, probably, to save buying a separate step drive).
[22:27:04] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: prop as in airplane prop, or as stage prop?
[22:27:09] <jmkasunich> stage prop
[22:27:24] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Ah, ok. though wither one would be cool =)
[22:27:24] <jmkasunich> I spent the last three weeks building the winches
[22:27:27] <EmcPT> Also not sure on the control method for controlling the servos. I know my drives can handle velocity control, torque control and step direction. What would be suitable?
[22:27:34] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: Oh joy
[22:27:42] <EmcPT> or most used, on bigger machines?
[22:27:44] <andypugh> jmkasunich: Did you see the Volleyball that someone did the same way (though he used a tetrapod)
[22:28:03] <jmkasunich> they hold 400 feet of 100lb breaking strength line, and can pull about 30 lbs at (hopefully) 15 feet per second
[22:28:12] <jmkasunich> yes, I saw the volleyball
[22:28:25] <jmkasunich> didn't know he did a tetrapod, that seems over-constrained
[22:28:25] <Jymmm> jmkasunich: I'm heading out the door in a couple, so you take care and catch ya laters!
[22:28:39] <andypugh> EmcPT: Any of them. I would guess that the velocity control would need the encoders to connect to the drives too.
[22:28:46] <jmkasunich> laters Jymmm
[22:29:29] <andypugh> But my understanding is that velocity control is typically more stable.
[22:30:43] <pcw_home> Andy: tentative 7I77 price is $159
[22:30:50] <EmcPT> That was I was hoping to hear... someone with a sign saying go in that direction first (I hope you are not wrong) :-)
[22:30:53] <andypugh> As awallin has said, you might get good performance with step/dir, but that moves most of the feedback into the drives. (but, if you use velocity mode stepgens, and PID in EMC2 then you effectively have a velocity-mode loop through a digital intrface)
[22:31:33] <Tom_itx> EmcPT, listen to pcw_home
[22:31:37] <andypugh> So, even step-dir to the drives can put the PID loop in EMC2.
[22:32:22] <andypugh> 7i77 is aimed at analogue control of servos. You would use a different board (7i76) to control with step-dir.
[22:33:57] <EmcPT> Well, not sure if this have a righ answer, but should I use analog control (7i77) or digital control (7i76) for the servos?
[22:35:09] <EmcPT> What does the big names in the industry currently use?
[22:36:13] <pcw_home> I guess it depends on how much of position control loop you want EMC to control
[22:39:20] <pcw_home> With analog servos EMC runs the position PID loop (and monitors following error and can fault at excessive error)
[22:39:21] <pcw_home> with Step/Dir the servo drives run the position control loop, and unless the encoders are feed back to EMC EMC is in the dark
[22:39:22] <EmcPT> Damm, not know what to say about that... At the end of the day (now is 22:40 here) will not know again what to choose.
[22:39:23] <pcw_home> about actual position
[22:39:42] <sliptonic_shop> Hi Guys. M
[22:40:03] <sliptonic_shop> y cnc router has stopped recognizing the joypad.
[22:40:20] <sliptonic_shop> http://pastebin.com/kEj65Yj6
[22:40:34] <sliptonic_shop> It shows up as a usb device though.
[22:40:38] <EmcPT> Then I want analog. EMC should always now where the machine is. That is a definitive choice to me.
[22:40:44] <andypugh> sliptonic_shop: Yes, the names of some pins changed.
[22:41:00] <EmcPT> Thank you pcw_home about the explanation.
[22:42:14] <sliptonic_shop> andypugh: Happen to have link to the relevant docs?
[22:42:33] <pcw_home> Doesn't have to be analog for EMC to "close the loop" but the drives would have to take some kind of real time torque/velocity signal from EMC
[22:45:09] <EmcPT> pce_home : Then I suppose that a more straigh forward approche would be controlling the servos analog. Sorry for the spealling. Know that some words are wrong.
[22:45:41] <andypugh> I am looking. It's a bit of a pain, actually. http://softsolder.com/2011/11/13/emc2-logitech-gamepad-trigger-button-name-change/ describes the issue.
[22:47:18] <sliptonic_shop> Thanks.
[22:47:33] <pcw_home> I think that analog is the most common servo retrofit approach. With a totally new system there are some other options (Ethercat for example)
[22:51:58] <EmcPT> not need to be on the developing edge. Just need a realiable system. If more people have what I will buy the better. Will need help/advices later for sure.
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[22:53:28] <andypugh> pcw_home: Does the 7i77 take two SSLBP channels?
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[23:02:12] <MattyMatt> meh, I thought I'd found you a laser cutter to use andypugh but it says no metal cutting allowed http://wiki.london.hackspace.org.uk/view/Equipment/LaserCutter
[23:02:30] <pcw_home> Yes one is for analog and one for field I/O
[23:02:44] <MattyMatt> 40W would probably be a bit tame anyway I guess
[23:03:30] <pcw_home> (field I/O part is identical to 7I76 field I/O)
[23:05:08] <pcw_home> Andy: 7I77 works fine with your driver (even with its funny 13 bit aligned analog out fields and packed one bit booleans)
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[23:14:03] <pcw_home> bbl
[23:15:32] <EmcPT> It seams that anders made a optoisolator board for the mesa. I could not find already made solutions. Anyone have knowledge of a premade I/O to use together with the 7i77? I would not want to make boards myself.
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[23:25:16] <andypugh> 7i77 is already isolated, I think
[23:27:21] <EmcPT> Thank you very much for the time used, maybe I will go forward with EMC. Does anyone know someone that is using it in Portugal?
[23:28:57] <andypugh> There is a user map, but I don't think it works any more/
[23:29:01] <skunkKandT> EmcPT: you can do this with emc.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxXGN2SVrhU
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[23:38:35] <EmcPT> Will definitly try EMC. How dificult is for the user to change the screen. It would be great to add buttons for coolant and specific outputs or inputs informations.
[23:39:34] <andypugh> If you specify connections for coolant, then buttons appear.
[23:40:06] <andypugh> For other things, there are ways to add floating or docked panels, or extra tabs in the user interface.
[23:40:17] <andypugh> using PvVCP or GladeVCP
[23:47:30] <Tom_itx> you can add as many whistles and bells as you like
[23:51:04] <MattyMatt> positive proof that repraps are worth a damn http://www.flickr.com/photos/34083125@N06/6265946508/in/photostream/
[23:54:16] <MattyMatt> that'll be my first print fo sho
[23:55:45] <Tom_itx> what cad do you use with that?
[23:58:49] <skunkKandT> can't it take stl's and convert them?
[23:59:00] <EmcPT> Thank you all for the insite / help.
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