#emc | Logs for 2011-09-26

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[00:01:06] * JT-Shop suspects that this material is not free from defects and will not polish out like a mirror no matter how hard I try
[00:03:44] -!- theorb [theorb!~theorb@91.84.53.6] has joined #emc
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[00:07:52] <A2Sheds> http://www.usdigital.com/products/equad does anyone else make these? clock to quadrature converter, it's not rocket science to make one, but I just want to buy one fast
[00:11:07] <Danimal_garage|2> hi JT-Shop
[00:11:13] <Danimal_garage|2> what material?
[00:11:33] <JT-Shop> hot roll lol
[00:11:34] <Danimal_garage|2> for the trike?
[00:11:37] <Danimal_garage|2> hah
[00:11:42] <JT-Shop> for the ballista
[00:11:51] <Danimal_garage|2> ballista?
[00:11:53] <JT-Shop> any luck finding a grinder
[00:11:55] <JT-Shop> yea
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[00:12:11] <Danimal_garage|2> no, i've been gone
[00:12:17] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/ballista/ballista.xhtml
[00:12:26] <Danimal_garage|2> i was in maine for a while, my dad had a quad bypass
[00:12:32] <JT-Shop> ouch
[00:12:38] <JT-Shop> came out ok?
[00:13:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: When should we expect eh pumpkin chunkin trebuchet?
[00:13:39] <Danimal_garage|2> nice!
[00:13:47] <Danimal_garage|2> yea, he's doing well now, thanks
[00:13:57] <JT-Shop> I don't know when Ray will finish the trebuchet
[00:15:28] <JT-Shop> the worst about that one is the leg pain... at least when I had my first heart surgery back in 93 that is what the bypass guys bitched about the most
[00:15:50] <Danimal_garage|2> yea, none of it looked fun
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[00:16:07] <Danimal_garage|2> how many are you on now?
[00:16:17] <JT-Shop> I'm sure it is better now... the last stint I got a few years ago was a cake walk compared to the first time
[00:16:21] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: bypass?! WTH man, you be smokin/bbq'in slab of flesh all the time
[00:17:11] <JT-Shop> I've had three heart surgerys but none were bypass a balloon a stint then a misfire
[00:17:20] <JT-Shop> yea, I started early
[00:17:35] <Jymmm> ...and he's only 23yo
[00:17:46] <JT-Shop> yea I wish
[00:17:59] <JT-Shop> I had a heart attack when I was 39
[00:18:10] <Jymmm> whoa, that is young
[00:18:31] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: hereditary?
[00:18:47] <JT-Shop> yea, they thought I was pulling there leg but I was trained so I knew better
[00:19:22] <JT-Shop> naw, I'm just a mental defect... or maybe just an artery defect
[00:19:33] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: rip cord from lamp, place one wire on center chest, other in hand
[00:20:18] <Danimal_garage|2> my dad had an angeoplasty back in early 2000
[00:20:45] <Danimal_garage|2> he'll be 61 in a couple months
[00:21:21] <JT-Shop> be back, dinner time
[00:22:11] <andypugh> A2Sheds: What's the application?
[00:22:47] <andypugh> You can do it with HAL components (a counter-mode encoder feeding a sim-encoder, I think)
[00:23:50] <andypugh> You might need two encoders, one with negative scale, summed into the sim-encoder. An alternative to the sim-encoder would be a quadrature stepgen.
[00:26:33] <A2Sheds> it's for a firing pulse generator that only has an input for two-channel with quadrature, so you can drive it with a clock generator
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[00:27:14] <andypugh> Is EMC2 involved? If it is, do it with HAL.
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[00:28:24] <andypugh> (all the needed parts exist in Hostmot2 too)
[00:28:59] <A2Sheds> oh yeah, I forgot HAL can generate clocks and pulses
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[00:29:25] <andypugh> quadrtature-mode stepgen is probably the easiest one to use.
[00:29:52] <andypugh> Right, work tomorrow. Goodnight.
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[00:30:02] <A2Sheds> me to, night
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[01:53:49] <FinboySlick> A2Sheds: I was peeking at the changes from 2.6.37 to 2.6.38.6... Seems the only thing that went out was NMI which is apparently not useful nowadays. I have half a mind to try and port the patch over to 2.6.38... Might take a bit of the workload off for 3.0.x.
[01:54:28] <FinboySlick> It doesn't affect me much as my system doesn't even have an APIC.
[01:54:53] <FinboySlick> But would you be up for testing if I did port it?
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[02:15:47] -!- Nostoc [Nostoc!~cnc@97.101.111.181] has joined #emc
[02:16:15] <Nostoc> Hey, is this a good place to ask for help in installing EMC2?
[02:16:29] <Guest33676> the best
[02:16:43] <Nostoc> Finally something goes right haha
[02:16:51] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Yeah, unless you're talking about high performance storage.
[02:16:57] Guest33676 is now known as Tom_shop
[02:17:06] <Nostoc> Nah, just trying to get a few guitars cut out
[02:17:18] <Nostoc> I recently made a Joes 4x4 Hybrid machine, and had it configured on Mach3
[02:17:40] <Nostoc> then heard about the real time kernel capabilities of ubuntu
[02:17:45] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Interesting there's a local shop here doing fancy guitars on CNC routers. Are you in Canada?
[02:18:04] <Nostoc> No, I'm in Orlando FL
[02:18:27] <Nostoc> What do you mean by fancy?
[02:18:48] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I don't know much about guitars, but apparently they're quite prized.
[02:19:26] <Nostoc> Well, compared to making paper weights with this thing... haha
[02:19:46] <Nostoc> This is actually a side project, I am planning on making plastic production molds as the end product
[02:20:06] <Nostoc> Do you own a machine
[02:20:06] <Nostoc> ?
[02:20:25] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Just for the sake of precision. The realtime bits aren't part of Ubuntu. EMC makes use of RTAI which is a linux kernel patch.
[02:20:35] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Yeah, trying to figure it out slowly.
[02:21:04] <Nostoc> What type of machine are you building? Also, I notice your text is in a gold font, does this imply you are private messaging me?
[02:21:27] <Nostoc> I am rather new to this OS, and especially xchat, used to mIRC
[02:21:28] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Assuming you're using pidgin, the gold font is just because I put your nic in my reply.
[02:21:42] <FinboySlick> xchat probably does the same.
[02:21:56] <Nostoc> True, didn't want to be rude or clutter up the place
[02:22:08] <Nostoc> What type of machine are you building?
[02:22:22] <Nostoc> I may not know EMC2 very well, but maybe I can help you with the mechanics of it.
[02:22:31] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I bought mine pre-made. Cheap chinese stuff, but it's got good features.
[02:22:48] <Nostoc> True, is it a mill or router?
[02:23:12] <FinboySlick> Mill. But it has a high speed spindle so there's some router aspect to it I guess.
[02:24:03] <Nostoc> Yeah, I've always distinguished the two mostly between rigidity and workspace... They make high speed bits for cutting steel using routers nowadays anyways.
[02:24:18] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I'm much of a beginner with EMC too, but if you have a system that already works with Mach3, you should have a basic setup with EMC up in no time.
[02:24:45] <Nostoc> Yeah, I was able to get through the stepperconf file, and I was able to accurately jog the XY and Z axis
[02:24:50] <Nostoc> I am having two problems primarily
[02:25:09] <Nostoc> My machine is a gantry type machine, and it has a slaved A axis (to the Y axis)
[02:25:41] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I think someone asked about that not too long ago.
[02:25:52] <Nostoc> I saw a work around to get the two slaved, merely by setting the pins out config to have the A axis direction and motion the same as the y ones
[02:26:29] <Nostoc> but then it didn't sound like the machine could auto home both the Y and A axis
[02:26:39] <Nostoc> to resquare the gantry.
[02:26:40] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: This is way above my level of experience, but I think you can create a variable in the config where the same pulses will go to two different channels. Tom, weren't you the one answering this last time?
[02:27:46] <Nostoc> Well, I was hoping it would more be like mach3, where I believe the pulses are generated independently, but simultaneously
[02:28:11] <Nostoc> I also think there was a default profile in the EMC2 set up screen, labeled stepper-gantry
[02:28:37] <Valen> Nostoc: your correct, if you just match the pins it wont rehome right
[02:28:47] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Heh, you probably know more about it than I do already.
[02:29:16] <Nostoc> There's a lot to learn about this I've figured out ha
[02:29:19] <Valen> i *think* you want to look into gantrykins
[02:29:33] <Nostoc> Is that a default profile?
[02:30:40] <Nostoc> OK I will read about that now, thank you
[02:31:06] <Nostoc> Also, my second problem involved latency (jitter) problems.
[02:31:29] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I've had to do a lot of tweaking to get that right.
[02:31:44] <Nostoc> After reading the files in the manual regarding latency issues, I believe that it is a problem with SMI interrupts
[02:31:57] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: What's your hardware? Motherboard and video card are the important bits.
[02:32:42] <Nostoc> Actually, I'm not entirely sure, and I forget the command to bring up all the info
[02:32:53] <Nostoc> It is an intel chipset, dual processor
[02:33:20] <Nostoc> The problem is that a friend built it from old parts, it used to be an old server back in high school.
[02:33:25] <Valen> sudo lshw
[02:33:33] <Valen> tell you everything you could want to know
[02:33:39] <Valen> for detailed cpu info
[02:33:44] <Valen> cat /proc/cpuinfo
[02:33:45] <Nostoc> Thanks, would you like me to post the results here?
[02:33:56] <Valen> pastebin for more than 3 or 4 lines
[02:33:59] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: You probably want to use a paste site like pastebin.
[02:34:03] <Valen> or it'll kick you off the server
[02:34:10] <Nostoc> oh, true
[02:34:27] <Nostoc> Is pastebin a part of xchat?
[02:34:34] <Valen> no
[02:34:42] <Valen> http://pastebin.com/
[02:34:51] <Nostoc> ok found it, one second
[02:36:16] <Valen> Nostoc: where in the world are you?
[02:36:20] <Valen> geographically
[02:36:31] <FinboySlick> Valen: He's in Florida.
[02:36:36] <Nostoc> I currently live in Orlando, FL
[02:37:05] <Valen> if you get online a bit earlier theres a number of other people around who can help you with this stuff in more detail
[02:37:38] <Nostoc> What's the best time spread?
[02:37:59] <Valen> most people quit about 3 hours ago ;->
[02:38:01] <Danimal_garage|2> most guys are east coast
[02:38:05] <Valen> or went to bed
[02:38:06] <Danimal_garage|2> or midwest
[02:38:29] <Danimal_garage|2> or england
[02:38:39] <Valen> looks like cradek is the guy to speak to about gantrykins
[02:39:00] <Valen> but yeah, i believe thats what you want to be using for a gantry setup with multiple drives
[02:39:55] * FinboySlick soldiers on through the night, helpless but dedicated.
[02:40:32] <Nostoc> Amen for that
[02:40:55] <Nostoc> I didn't know how the community worked, if it was mostly commercial or home users on EMC2
[02:41:00] * FinboySlick narrates his own adventures out loud like The Maxx.
[02:41:41] <Nostoc> lol, you could go all night like that
[02:42:03] <Valen> pcw works for mesa and hangs out in here
[02:42:16] <Nostoc> Most of the hobby communities I've been a part of all seem to be active from the hours of 10 to 3am, so I wasn't sure
[02:42:19] <Valen> i believe cradec and a few of the others are devs
[02:42:32] <Nostoc> devs for EMC?
[02:42:35] <Valen> yeah
[02:42:47] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Bits of everything from what I can wager. A lot seem to be pros in related fields.
[02:42:58] <Valen> we use it commercially
[02:43:06] <Tom_shop> this channel is where it's at
[02:43:22] <Nostoc> True, it really surprised me that Sherline was the one hosting the iso files, put it in some perspective
[02:43:56] <Tom_shop> i'm running my sherline right now
[02:44:09] <FinboySlick> Apparently Syil Canada (the guys who sold me my machine) are in the process of porting all their solutions to some ready-built EMC setups.
[02:44:33] <Nostoc> haha, I guess it helps that half of the work on a machine is listening to it run?
[02:44:38] * FinboySlick wonders if Keith is in here.
[02:45:15] <Nostoc> Do you guys ever use EMC for non CNC pulse generation or steppers?
[02:45:31] <Valen> people have done weirdass stuff with it lol
[02:45:32] <Nostoc> That was one of the main reasons I was interested in getting this working
[02:45:49] <Valen> like the guy who used it to make a ghost fly around his yard for haloween
[02:45:57] <Nostoc> hahaha
[02:45:58] <Valen> 3 stepper driven winches
[02:46:01] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I've only skimmed through it, but the HAL seems terribly flexible as to what it'll let you do.
[02:46:05] <Nostoc> hell yeah
[02:46:39] <Nostoc> That's what I was thinking... I was going to try to rig it for a friend of mine
[02:46:54] <Nostoc> he recently took a very old satellite dish, and got a better antenna for it
[02:47:03] <Nostoc> found an adapter for the back of a WRT54G router
[02:47:32] <Nostoc> plugged it in, and he's getting high quality data streams from routers 5 miles away, dropped his ISP and just uses the university's internet from home now
[02:47:37] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Now he sends wifi to the ISS?
[02:47:47] <Nostoc> Pretty much man, seriously
[02:48:02] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: That's actually my field. I run a small wireless ISP.
[02:48:07] <Nostoc> this thing will go for 5 miles
[02:48:16] <FinboySlick> We don't use wifi though, doesn't scale very well.
[02:48:31] <Nostoc> You can't use it for things like backbones?
[02:48:57] <Nostoc> I thought some satellites were used in that
[02:49:09] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Not worth the trouble. It's not very efficient either because of all the different point to multipoint layers.
[02:49:44] <FinboySlick> Nah, piping internet through satellite is terrible for latency.
[02:49:50] <Nostoc> True, a bit over my head I guess, I thought they had set it up in Brazil like that
[02:49:52] <FinboySlick> Not to mention excessively expensive.
[02:50:02] <Nostoc> and San Francisco after the fact
[02:50:39] <Nostoc> Rio De Janerio I think, they created an entirely ad hoc network from e-waste, now the whole city has broadband access
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[02:51:07] <Nostoc> even if they're living in destitute poverty
[02:51:16] <Nostoc> either way, I'm going to read about gantrykins
[02:51:25] <FinboySlick> There are fairly cheap, carrier grade backhaul units now. 5 grand gets you ~100mbps throughput across 30 miles.
[02:51:39] <Nostoc> true
[02:51:56] <Nostoc> I don't know how that scales to physical lines
[02:52:13] <Nostoc> Hey, before I get neck deep in gantrykins though, I was going to ask
[02:52:15] <FinboySlick> Heh, let's say it won't compare to a fiber.
[02:52:22] <Nostoc> you had latency issues correct?
[02:52:46] <Nostoc> were they continuous latency issues, like consistently high jitter, or periodic spikes of very high jitter
[02:52:57] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Yeah. Turned out to be a sata controller. Went IDE and things got fine.
[02:53:29] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: It can be a lot of things. Disable everything you can.
[02:53:35] <Nostoc> Did you have to deal with the SMI issues?
[02:53:53] <FinboySlick> I don't think the board I ended up using has them.
[02:53:58] <Nostoc> My continuous jitter is quite low, around 10000ns max, I used latmonitor
[02:54:04] <Danimal_garage|2> yay, 5 more parts before i can stop working for the night
[02:54:23] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage|2: I read 'pants' and then wondered.
[02:54:34] <Nostoc> lol
[02:55:17] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Disable everything that is not essential.
[02:55:34] <Danimal_garage|2> hey, we all have to make a living
[02:55:35] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Use a ps2 mouse/keyboard, disable USB, disable sound card, etc.
[02:56:06] <Nostoc> Did that solve spikes in latency?
[02:56:31] <Nostoc> I plan on doing that for optimization once I get the system to an acceptable working level
[02:56:36] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Kinda. I noticed that they seemed to correspond to HD work, so I switched to IDE.
[02:56:57] <Nostoc> Right now, I'm concerned because periodically I get an 8 millisecond jitter
[02:57:03] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: In many cases, it's cheaper to just buy a board you know will get you the results you want.
[02:57:14] <Danimal_garage|2> i got huge spikes when my hdd was going out
[02:57:43] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage|2: Mine was the controller, crappy crappy thing.
[02:57:46] <Nostoc> The hard drive is verified as working, spinrite verified
[02:58:00] <Danimal_garage|2> mine was brand new lol
[02:58:01] <Nostoc> it is also newer
[02:58:24] <Nostoc> yeah, I think hdd manufacturers started with the planned obsolescence garbage
[02:58:25] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Those factors aren't really relevant when dealing with jitter.
[02:59:02] <Nostoc> Well, based on the way the manual described SMI interrupts
[02:59:06] <FinboySlick> It's not so much how new recent it is. It's what it asks your CPU to do when you're not looking ;)
[02:59:13] <Nostoc> yeah
[02:59:33] <Nostoc> The problem I am having fits the SMI latency problem almost to the T
[02:59:55] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Often, older hardware does better because it lacks all the fancy management systems.
[02:59:55] <Danimal_garage|2> i was swearing at my mobo left and right before i figured out it was the hdd causing the issues
[02:59:55] <Nostoc> It is perfectly periodic, with the same time interval between latency spikes
[03:00:26] <Nostoc> the latency is always the same magnitude spike (+- 1%)
[03:00:27] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: http://www.rootninja.com/smi-interrupts-on-x86/
[03:00:41] <Nostoc> AND my chipset has SMI on it
[03:00:42] <Nostoc> lol
[03:00:52] <Nostoc> I should of begun by saying that
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[03:01:15] <Nostoc> yeah, I think hdd's just hate the winter or something
[03:01:45] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I think Danimal_garage|2's HDD hated the vibration even more.
[03:02:05] <Nostoc> you guys have your systems mounted to the machine?
[03:02:36] <Danimal_garage|2> winter? i live in socal lol
[03:02:41] <Danimal_garage|2> i do
[03:02:52] <Danimal_garage|2> i have a large electrical enclosure with everything in it
[03:03:03] <Danimal_garage|2> on my mill anyways
[03:03:15] <Danimal_garage|2> my lathe's pc is seperate, and so is my mini mill
[03:03:50] <Danimal_garage|2> the hdd that went out was causing issues since day one, so it wasn't the mill's fault
[03:03:51] <Nostoc> Is it mechanically (vibrationally) isolated? I don't think most of this stuff is made to resist it
[03:04:02] <Nostoc> true
[03:04:17] <Nostoc> Thanks for the link Finboy, I have read similar things in EMC2's manual
[03:04:19] <Danimal_garage|2> it's a 6000lb machine, not a ton of vibrations cutting aluminum
[03:04:36] <Nostoc> true, I'm just a college grad in a garage, sorry
[03:04:40] <Nostoc> haha
[03:05:08] <Danimal_garage|2> ha, well i'm just a schmuck in a garage
[03:05:23] <Danimal_garage|2> so i think you have me beat
[03:05:28] <Nostoc> well I'll drink to that
[03:05:42] <Danimal_garage|2> good call, it is past my beer time
[03:05:55] <Danimal_garage|2> cheers
[03:05:59] <Nostoc> cheers
[03:06:22] <Nostoc> I have a question about this site actually
[03:06:34] <Nostoc> they say to compile a ACPI-enabled Kernel
[03:06:35] * FinboySlick raises his pepsi, joining in.
[03:06:47] <Nostoc> lol, cheers
[03:07:18] <Nostoc> does the preconfig EMC2 10.04 iso have an ACPI-enabled Kernel
[03:07:24] <Danimal_garage|2> wish i could help, but i'm useless when it comes to anything but the bare basics
[03:07:25] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Patching yourself a kernel for ACPI can be a fair piece of work.
[03:07:38] <FinboySlick> I mean for RTAI, not for ACPI.
[03:08:04] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: I'm pretty sure what comes on the livecd has ACPI enabled, yes.
[03:08:29] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: You got hyperthreading? I hear disabling that helps.
[03:08:33] <Nostoc> then it says disable TCO timer generation of SMIs
[03:08:39] <Nostoc> I disabled hyperthreading
[03:08:42] <Nostoc> along with onboard audio
[03:08:51] <Nostoc> I am 99% certain this problem is an SMI problem
[03:08:59] <Nostoc> like literally I will paypal you cash if it isn't
[03:09:06] <Nostoc> and buy you a beer
[03:09:19] <Nostoc> lol
[03:09:25] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: There's no real beer in the US.
[03:09:37] <FinboySlick> Heck, you have us put water in ours before you import it!
[03:09:41] <Nostoc> we define real beer differently
[03:09:47] <Nostoc> go drink some steel reserve
[03:09:59] <FinboySlick> Hehe.
[03:10:05] <Nostoc> it pretty much won the war in the pacific
[03:10:26] <Nostoc> Where are you from?
[03:10:30] <Nostoc> Canada?
[03:10:48] <FinboySlick> Yeah. To someone from Orlando it's even worse, I'm from Quebec.
[03:10:58] <FinboySlick> We used to invade every year.
[03:11:07] <Nostoc> Are you guys your own country yet?
[03:11:17] <FinboySlick> Now we just left the fat hairy people in speedoes down there.
[03:11:38] <Nostoc> lol, why do you think they give out so many prescriptions down here?
[03:11:44] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: Heh, even the separatist party is giving up on that lately.
[03:12:13] <Nostoc> well, there seems to be a lot more mention on TV of unioning between Canada and the US
[03:12:25] <Nostoc> not necessarily politically yet, but certainly mentions of monetary unions
[03:12:40] <FinboySlick> Heh, give us the 10th amendment and I'll vote for that.
[03:13:07] <FinboySlick> If you think your federal govt is trying to run everything, you haven't been to Canada yet.
[03:13:07] <Nostoc> You're talking about our tenth right?
[03:13:15] <FinboySlick> Yes.
[03:13:18] <Nostoc> I'll drink to that
[03:13:34] <Nostoc> Yeah I've heard of some crazy things from Canada
[03:13:46] <Nostoc> You guys are lucky though
[03:14:04] <Nostoc> I really think most of the problems in our country come from deep ingrained cultural differences
[03:14:31] <Nostoc> Like I mean, the minority culture in Canada is French, maybe Asian right?
[03:15:04] <FinboySlick> Well, the main channel is probably not the best spot to talk about this, but I'll indulge you through PM.
[03:15:12] <Nostoc> OK
[03:15:46] <FinboySlick> Nostoc: For things linux-related (and not all that EMC), I'll probably be more helpful.
[03:16:13] <Nostoc> True, can never have too many linux friends
[03:16:36] <Nostoc> I've got one ace in the hole down the street, I just have to pay him with 3 dollar wine
[03:17:22] <Danimal_garage|2> oh please, the US has much better beer
[03:17:34] <Danimal_garage|2> maybe not budweiser or coors
[03:17:50] <Nostoc> microbrews are a new thing
[03:17:57] <Tom_itx> sam adams
[03:18:01] <Nostoc> try monastery brews from old europe, I'm patriotic
[03:18:08] <Danimal_garage|2> but i can throw a rock and hit 6 breweries in the area that are better than anything i've had in/from Canada
[03:18:17] <Nostoc> but european beers can trump all
[03:18:23] <Danimal_garage|2> ehh
[03:18:40] <Danimal_garage|2> i have friends in Germany than can't wait to get back to have a real IPA
[03:20:01] <Danimal_garage|2> Molson Canadian or Labatts was ok when i was in high school :)
[03:20:47] * Danimal_garage|2 runs before all the Europeans in here throw bottles at me
[03:25:19] <Valen> australia here, we have the beer!
[03:25:29] <norias> oi.
[03:25:44] <Valen> american beer is much like making love in a canoe
[03:26:30] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9cTXl5ApEk
[03:26:34] <Valen> contains swearing
[03:28:38] <norias> oh man
[03:28:58] <norias> for some reason i can't speak on #opengl
[03:30:33] <A2Sheds> FinboySlick: send a message to the RTAI devs, se what they have done so far, we were going to look at 3.x next month
[03:32:38] <FinboySlick> A2Sheds: Alright. I don't think I'm cut for this type of work anyway. Some of it is pretty tricky.
[03:40:22] <Danimal_garage|2> Fosters. Austrailian for Budweiser.
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[03:44:46] <Valen> nobody here drinks that "stuff"
[03:44:54] <Valen> though i did like their ads
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[04:05:56] <A2Sheds> FinboySlick: my thought was to have EMC working with coreboot on the AMD APU mini-itx boards with 3.x kernels
[04:06:08] <A2Sheds> maybe by the end of the year
[04:06:47] <FinboySlick> A2Sheds: You're making me dream.
[04:08:22] <A2Sheds> coreboot on the Fusion boards first, I'm not certain what the latency issues might be yet
[04:08:40] <A2Sheds> if all goes well then RTAI for 3.x
[04:10:04] <A2Sheds> having all these as funded projects should move them along
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[05:55:27] <Nostoc> Hey, can anybody answer a question about setting up a gantry type machine (slaved Y/A)?
[06:03:07] <Valen> Nostoc: dont ask to ask, just ask
[06:03:19] <A2Sheds> go ahead and ask, but it's usually pretty quiet in here for the next few hours
[06:03:33] <Nostoc> fair, just being cordial
[06:03:42] <Nostoc> i'm trying to figure out how to use gantrykins
[06:03:56] <Nostoc> basically I edit the ini to add an extra axis onto an xyz machine
[06:04:06] <Nostoc> set number of axes to 4
[06:04:14] <Nostoc> copy in the last axis
[06:04:18] <Nostoc> then go into the hal file
[06:04:21] <Valen> theres an etiquette to IRC, asking to ask isnt part of it
[06:04:38] <Nostoc> I will remember that
[06:04:56] <Nostoc> so then I go into the hal file
[06:05:29] <Valen> no worries, (you look like a n00b if you do ;->) anyway
[06:05:34] <Nostoc> add loadrt gantrykins
[06:05:42] <Nostoc> I am a noob haha
[06:05:53] <Valen> yeah but you dont want to *look* like one ;->
[06:05:53] <Nostoc> to EMC/linux anyways
[06:06:18] <Nostoc> true, thanks for the back
[06:06:27] <Nostoc> do you know how to use gantrykins?
[06:06:50] <Valen> its also fine to have multiple strings/threads of conversation going (until it becomes confusing)
[06:07:07] <Valen> no but i *may* be able to help with hal or whatever else it is
[06:07:14] <Valen> or point you in the right direction
[06:07:40] <Nostoc> i'm always on adderall, multiple subjects can't exist
[06:07:59] <Nostoc> i'll probably just try my intuition
[06:08:06] <Valen> well whats the problem?
[06:08:16] <Nostoc> I'm trying to slave the Y and A axes
[06:08:24] <Nostoc> and keep them on separate stepgenerators
[06:08:35] <Nostoc> so that I can home them separately
[06:08:44] <Valen> yeah, i mean the specific issue your having
[06:09:12] <Nostoc> I thought that was specific
[06:09:37] <Nostoc> one second, and I will find a way to clarify it
[06:10:05] <Valen> you got to the point of loadrt gantrykins
[06:10:26] <Nostoc> well right now, I am defining the extra axis in the .ini file
[06:10:38] <Nostoc> under the coordinates, do I type xyyz
[06:10:43] <Nostoc> or xyza
[06:10:49] <Valen> i believe the second
[06:11:05] <Nostoc> yeah but then I'm looking at this thread
[06:11:22] <Nostoc> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,3262/catid,10/limit,6/limitstart,6/lang,english/
[06:11:33] <Nostoc> where the guy is saying its actually xyz
[06:11:44] <Nostoc> since there are only 3 degrees of freedom
[06:11:50] <Nostoc> but I can't tell if he's talking about the ini or the hal
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[06:13:55] <Valen> ahh right ok with you now
[06:14:06] <Valen> (i should learn this, going to have a gantry machine at some point soon)
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[06:14:32] <Valen> you want xyyz in your hal
[06:14:38] theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[06:14:39] <Valen> and xyza in you ini i believe
[06:14:57] <Valen> loadrt gantrykins coordinates=xyyz
[06:15:30] <Valen> then in the ini axis 0 is your X axis 1 is your first Y axis 2 is your 2nd y and axis 3 is your Z
[06:16:41] <Nostoc> and then I write in the stepgen/ypos/ystep/ydir/yenable lines etc in the hal under it
[06:16:47] <Nostoc> for the a axis
[06:17:03] <Nostoc> and the xyyz
[06:17:12] <Nostoc> would imply that I move the z to stepgen 3
[06:17:17] <Nostoc> and the a axis is stepgen 2
[06:17:18] <Nostoc> right?
[06:17:52] <Valen> that sounds right but dont quote me on it lol
[06:18:10] <Nostoc> That thread I showed you had an admin, or authority figure, saying to leave it at axes as XYZ in the ini
[06:18:17] <Nostoc> since you only have three degrees of freedom
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[06:19:13] <Valen> i think he is talking about doing it where you have them linked
[06:19:28] <Nostoc> which sounds wrong since the whole goddamn point is the a is free but normally slaved
[06:19:44] <Nostoc> where you have them linked?
[06:19:44] <Valen> thing is there are 2 ways of doing it
[06:20:06] <Valen> you can just send the same signals out and have the motors acting like one big motor
[06:20:11] <Valen> or use the gantrykins thing
[06:20:18] <Nostoc> yeah, the first way is physically slaving it
[06:20:20] <Nostoc> right?
[06:20:25] <Valen> yeah
[06:20:37] <Valen> which i take it is not what your after
[06:20:46] <Nostoc> that is not what I am after
[06:20:51] <Nostoc> or else you can easily do that in the pinout diagram
[06:21:09] <Valen> are you still using stepconf or doing your ini by hand?
[06:21:16] <Nostoc> ini by hand
[06:21:21] <Nostoc> stepconf doesn't give you the option
[06:21:35] <Valen> yeah its for the easy stuff
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[06:23:00] <Valen> I would suggest that you need to use 4 axies to use gantrykins
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[06:24:25] <Valen> yeah if you look at say http://media.unpythonic.net/axis-files/01162326817/axis-xyyz.ini
[06:24:32] <Valen> and http://media.unpythonic.net/axis-files/01162326817/sim-xyyz.hal
[06:24:50] <Valen> (don't use them copy/paste style they are for sim)
[06:25:31] <Nostoc> true
[06:25:35] <Nostoc> let me absorb
[06:25:38] <Nostoc> thanks
[06:25:50] <Valen> and this is why we don't ask to ask ;-> lol
[06:26:53] <Nostoc> word
[06:27:01] <Nostoc> the ini looks legit
[06:27:07] <Nostoc> the hal seems to be completely different
[06:27:11] <Nostoc> probably because it is for a servo
[06:27:15] <Nostoc> whereas I am using steppers
[06:27:16] <Valen> and sim
[06:27:20] <Nostoc> and sim
[06:27:26] <Nostoc> regardless the arguments all seem to be different
[06:27:36] <Valen> its also rather old
[06:27:49] <Valen> the setp stuff should still work to assign an axis to a joint
[06:28:02] <Valen> at least its in the man page
[06:29:06] <Valen> actually no
[06:29:11] <Valen> doesn't seem to be there
[06:29:16] <Valen> just uses the coordinates
[06:34:28] <Nostoc> didn't work
[06:34:52] <Valen> because?
[06:35:03] <Nostoc> do you know what the whole axis to joint thing means?
[06:35:08] <Nostoc> like what is a joint? a step gen?
[06:35:21] <Valen> it is a thing that EMC controlls
[06:35:30] <Valen> it winds up driving a step gen
[06:36:02] <Valen> have you had a look at the integrators manual?
[06:36:08] <Nostoc> no
[06:36:17] <Valen> might be worth a quick read through
[06:36:25] <Valen> it'll tell you more about how all the gubbins work
[06:36:36] <Nostoc> how to I find that, man integrators?
[06:36:39] <Valen> you probably won't unserstand it all to start with
[06:36:46] <Valen> (i still dont)
[06:36:51] <Nostoc> where is it
[06:36:53] <Valen> but might give you somewhere to start
[06:36:54] <Valen> one sec
[06:36:57] <Nostoc> I could tell you how mach3 works in and out
[06:37:09] <Nostoc> well not completely but mostly
[06:37:11] <Valen> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/EMC2_Integrator_Manual.pdf
[06:37:31] <Valen> mach hides alot of stuff, (because it is dodgy ;->) emc doesn't
[06:38:34] <Valen> but the specific question is what didn't work?
[06:40:19] <Nostoc> gave me an error at bootup
[06:40:29] <Nostoc> man that integrators manual is dense, 245 pages christ
[06:40:30] <Valen> what was it?
[06:40:47] <Valen> told you, it doesn't hide the inner workings ;->
[06:41:15] <Jymmm> there's two more manuals too
[06:41:25] <Nostoc> I am new to ubuntu also
[06:41:37] <Valen> it grows on you
[06:41:45] <Nostoc> I don't know how to get the error to print, dmesg takes a huge dump on the bash
[06:41:58] <Jymmm> Valen: So does leprosy
[06:42:09] <Valen> and moss
[06:42:48] <Valen> probably best to start emc from a command line if your not already i'll spit it all out in a terminal
[06:42:59] <Valen> most of the stuff that comes out is debugging config stuff
[06:43:02] <Nostoc> I have to start emc from command line in sudo
[06:43:07] <Nostoc> or else it freezes
[06:43:19] <Valen> you shouldn't need to use sudo, how did you install it?
[06:43:31] <Nostoc> precompiled live disk
[06:43:46] <Valen> i think at the end of the dump there should be a blurb of text with the error itself
[06:43:54] <Valen> or at the start
[06:43:59] <Valen> but probably not in the middle
[06:44:09] <Valen> havent had a dump like that in a a while lol
[06:44:13] <Nostoc> well it says two files have been printed emc debug and emc print
[06:44:31] <Nostoc> is there a way to choose which one dmesg dumps into the terminal?
[06:44:33] <Valen> you normally get a whole buttload of crap in the terminal?
[06:44:53] <Valen> just scroll through that till you see something that looks like an error
[06:44:57] <Nostoc> when it fails and I type dmesg yes
[06:44:58] <Valen> or pastebin the lot
[06:45:16] <Valen> oh, normally it will spit it out to the terminal you start it from anyway
[06:45:40] <Valen> if you only want to see the last bit of the file you can "tail /var/log/syslog -n 300"
[06:45:53] <Jymmm> 300, heh
[06:45:55] <Nostoc> a question
[06:46:02] <Nostoc> there seems to be an error
[06:46:08] <Valen> Jymmm: can you tell I use mesa ;->
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[06:46:21] <Valen> 300 is still going to be less than dmesg ;-P
[06:46:26] <Jymmm> Valen: What does mesa have todo with anything?
[06:46:39] <Valen> it gives about 3 lines per pin
[06:46:43] <Nostoc> the error says that there was a large amount of time between calls to the processor
[06:46:47] <Jymmm> Valen: ah
[06:46:48] <Nostoc> compared to what is normal
[06:46:56] <Valen> thats a latency error
[06:47:02] <Nostoc> yes
[06:47:12] <Jymmm> did you run the laency test?
[06:47:12] <Nostoc> will emc2 refuse to play if latency sucks?
[06:47:13] <Valen> what is the results of you running latency test?
[06:47:19] <Nostoc> OK let me explain
[06:47:22] <Valen> it will work, but it may not work well
[06:47:23] <Nostoc> my board has SMI on it
[06:47:28] <Nostoc> I don't know how to get SMI off
[06:47:35] <Nostoc> I tried the shit on the board yesterday
[06:47:38] <Nostoc> SMI is still on
[06:47:50] <Nostoc> latency is great, but occasionally I get a periodic 8ms delay
[06:48:00] <Nostoc> whereas usually my jitters are <10us
[06:48:19] <Nostoc> my friend that knows linux and built the computer was going to fix it tomarrow
[06:48:20] <Jymmm> run the latency test for 24 hours under load
[06:48:37] <Nostoc> will an error like that close EMC2?
[06:48:41] <Valen> no
[06:48:44] <Nostoc> or prevent it from running?
[06:48:50] <Valen> no
[06:49:04] <Valen> might bend your machine, and it will cause errors to be printed
[06:49:10] <Valen> but thats about all
[06:49:13] <Nostoc> thats fine, I am going to fix SMI
[06:49:23] <Nostoc> it is just beyond my control atm, and if my friend does it
[06:49:32] <Nostoc> and the processors fry, then he just fried his own processors not me
[06:49:33] <Nostoc> lol
[06:49:49] <Valen> if you have a bit of coin to spare, the dual core atoms work well
[06:49:59] <Valen> but yes your looking in the right place for your error
[06:50:13] <Nostoc> I won't have any coin until i'm cutting them out on this cnc machine
[06:50:34] <Valen> i think in the US they are like $80 or something
[06:50:36] <Valen> but anyway
[06:51:06] <Nostoc> what is a dual core atom?
[06:51:15] <Nostoc> an entire system?
[06:51:34] <Valen> motherboard + cpu
[06:51:36] <Valen> add ram and hdd
[06:51:51] <Valen> you have hyperthreading off right?
[06:51:56] <Nostoc> yes
[06:52:05] <Nostoc> although I am using a USB mouse
[06:52:14] <Valen> should be ok
[06:52:35] <Nostoc> i'm pretty sure its SMI
[06:52:39] <Valen> this kind of thing http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
[06:52:57] <Nostoc> [15973.609135] trivkins: exports duplicate symbol kinematicsInverse (owned by gantrykins)
[06:53:03] <Nostoc> is that an error?
[06:53:15] <Valen> pastebin the whole thing
[06:53:35] <psha[work]> surely that's an error
[06:53:41] <psha[work]> you don't need two kinematics modules
[06:54:10] <Valen> true that
[06:54:42] <Nostoc> http://pastebin.com/C6qpLuvL
[06:54:54] <Nostoc> is the dmesg
[06:55:10] <Nostoc> if you want I can post my HAL and INI files too
[06:56:02] <Nostoc> in the ini I set [TRAJ]axes = 4
[06:56:07] <Nostoc> COORDINATES = X Y Z
[06:56:26] <Nostoc> added AXIS 3 which is a clone of axis 1
[06:56:34] <Nostoc> AXIS3 is supposed to be A 1 is Y
[06:56:34] <Valen> COORDINATES goes in hal as part of the loadrt line doesnt it?
[06:56:49] <Nostoc> there is a line in the ini also
[06:56:55] <Valen> k
[06:57:06] <psha[work]> grep for trivkins in configs
[06:57:36] <Valen> that does sound like the problem
[06:57:54] <psha[work]> also you have realtime delay (dunno why)
[06:58:11] <psha[work]> Valen: good morning :]
[06:58:15] <Valen> SMI he says
[06:58:23] <Valen> 5:00 PM here ;->
[06:58:26] <psha[work]> probably, i've not read whole conversation :]
[06:58:29] <Nostoc> yeah, I think its SMI
[06:58:33] <Valen> getting cold there psha[work]?
[06:58:39] <Nostoc> what does grep for trivkins in configs mean
[06:58:43] <Nostoc> I am new to linux, sorry
[06:58:44] <psha[work]> grep trivkins *.hal
[06:58:46] <psha[work]> in console
[06:58:58] <psha[work]> in directory where your configs live
[06:59:05] <Valen> probably easier to just look for trivkins in your hal file
[06:59:08] <psha[work]> or open .hal files in editor and search for word 'trivkins'
[06:59:12] <Valen> are you using gedit to edit the files?
[06:59:39] <Nostoc> yes I'm using gedit
[06:59:45] <Nostoc> also, if a file is on your desktop
[06:59:45] <psha[work]> it's very basic kinematics module used to map axis to joints 1 to 1
[06:59:58] <Nostoc> alright one second I will search the file
[07:00:01] <psha[work]> probably it's a link on your desktop
[07:00:29] <Nostoc> "loadrt trivkins" is in my hal file
[07:00:48] <Valen> comment that out
[07:01:02] <Nostoc> comments are preceded by #
[07:01:03] <Nostoc> ?
[07:01:04] <Valen> assuming thats all thats on that line ;->
[07:01:08] <Valen> generally
[07:01:18] <psha[work]> Nostoc: yes
[07:01:21] <psha[work]> # comment
[07:01:30] <psha[work]> everything after # is ignored
[07:01:54] <Nostoc> is this a legitimate loadrt?
[07:01:56] <Nostoc> "loadrt gantrykins coordinates=XYZY"
[07:02:05] <Valen> should be
[07:02:06] <Nostoc> in the hal
[07:02:19] <Valen> if you have 4 axis in your ini
[07:02:27] <Nostoc> I do
[07:03:15] <Nostoc> ok
[07:03:20] <Nostoc> I commented out trivkins
[07:03:24] <Nostoc> and EMC was able to load
[07:03:30] <Valen> sweet
[07:03:31] <Nostoc> cross your fingers
[07:04:19] <Nostoc> are there shortcuts for jogging in EMC2?
[07:04:27] <Nostoc> like keyboard shortcuts?
[07:04:35] <psha[work]> arrows?
[07:04:36] <Nostoc> I would rather not do trial runs with the MDI
[07:04:39] <Nostoc> yeah
[07:04:43] <Nostoc> are arrows supposed to work?
[07:04:45] <psha[work]> yes
[07:04:54] <Nostoc> like keyboard arrows and page up/down?
[07:04:58] <psha[work]> yes
[07:05:02] <psha[work]> xy and z
[07:05:08] <psha[work]> in axis
[07:05:22] <Nostoc> absolutely nothing
[07:05:24] <Valen> i have heard something about gantrykins with jogging
[07:05:33] <Valen> have you had it work at all without gantrykins?
[07:05:37] <Nostoc> yeah
[07:05:41] <Nostoc> when I first did stepconf
[07:05:46] <Nostoc> I can do an XYZ fine
[07:05:48] <Nostoc> one at a time
[07:06:02] <Nostoc> like the test X made the X axis run
[07:06:05] <Nostoc> you know?
[07:06:07] <Valen> cool
[07:06:11] <Nostoc> worked for XY and Z
[07:06:21] <Nostoc> the A was an angular axis, so I said fuck that
[07:06:25] <Valen> can you post the hal and ini files for that and what you have now
[07:09:07] <Nostoc> http://pastebin.com/teQ0rj3z
[07:09:14] <Nostoc> both are labeled
[07:09:27] <Nostoc> psha, do you know if trivkins has to do with jogging?
[07:09:45] <psha[work]> probably you need to switch world/joint mode
[07:09:58] <Nostoc> explain please
[07:10:13] <Nostoc> should I decomment trivkins?
[07:10:14] <psha[work]> in trivkins jogging one axis is simple - it's mapped on one joint
[07:10:24] <psha[work]> in gantrykins jogging Y maps to two joints
[07:10:44] <psha[work]> so probably you need to go to menu (don't remember where) and select world coordinate mode
[07:10:53] <psha[work]> but I have not worked with gantrykins at all
[07:11:47] <Nostoc> is that under view>world mode
[07:11:54] <Nostoc> or is it an actual setting that needs to be changed
[07:12:37] <psha[work]> no, just in menu
[07:12:41] <psha[work]> probably view>mode
[07:12:46] <psha[work]> view>world
[07:13:04] <Nostoc> still nothing
[07:13:06] <psha[work]> so it commands kins module to jog in world coordinates
[07:13:08] <psha[work]> pity
[07:13:27] <Nostoc> did you see the HAL and INI file I posted?
[07:13:52] <psha[work]> MDI moves are working?
[07:13:53] <psha[work]> or not?
[07:14:46] <Nostoc> it won't let me type in the MDI box
[07:14:55] <Valen> have you turned it on?
[07:14:59] <Valen> F1 and F2?
[07:15:12] <psha[work]> :]
[07:15:18] <Nostoc> lol
[07:15:22] <Nostoc> what does F1 and F2 do?
[07:15:30] <psha[work]> F1 toggles software ESTOP
[07:15:30] <Valen> estop and power
[07:15:32] <psha[work]> F2 - power
[07:15:47] <Valen> first 2 buttons in the toolbar i think too
[07:15:53] <Nostoc> I have a physical E stop
[07:15:58] <Nostoc> I am using a g540
[07:16:01] <Valen> you have a software one too
[07:16:04] <Nostoc> I can see the F1 you are talking about
[07:16:17] <Nostoc> the F2
[07:16:18] <psha[work]> Nostoc: if you've connected HW estop to hal pins - then push it
[07:16:25] <psha[work]> if not - use F1 (or top-left button in axis)_
[07:16:50] <Nostoc> I think I have the E stop set the wrong way
[07:16:57] <Nostoc> active high instead of active low
[07:16:59] <Nostoc> or vice versa
[07:17:22] <Nostoc> let me shut it down and just put a breaker over the E stop
[07:17:25] <Nostoc> or rather a jumper
[07:17:41] <Valen> I'd just disconnect it in the hal for the time being ;->
[07:17:51] <Nostoc> what, the E stop?
[07:17:57] <Valen> yeah
[07:18:12] <Valen> unless your driver or whatever needs it somehow?
[07:18:17] <Nostoc> how, comment out every line with estop in it?
[07:18:26] <Nostoc> yes, the G540 requires a physical E Stop
[07:18:33] <Valen> have you done anything to put estop into hal?
[07:18:42] <Nostoc> I put it on a pin out
[07:18:48] <Nostoc> or pin in rather
[07:18:57] <Nostoc> during stepconf
[07:19:02] <Valen> if its a pin in just comment that out
[07:19:12] <Valen> or just try F1 now and see if it powers up
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[07:23:18] <Nostoc> I don't know which line to comment out to just get rid of the Estop
[07:23:29] <Nostoc> I commented every one out with estop in it
[07:23:44] <Nostoc> but now pressing F1 doesn't take the program out of Estop anyways
[07:23:50] <Nostoc> F1 doesn't toggle Estop
[07:23:51] <Valen> thats probably going to yeah cause that lol
[07:23:55] <Nostoc> lol
[07:24:05] <Nostoc> ok
[07:24:07] <Nostoc> now what?
[07:24:10] <Nostoc> hahaha
[07:24:14] <Valen> there should be one that links estop to some other pin
[07:24:22] <Valen> as in one on your parallel port?
[07:24:43] <Nostoc> Are you familiar with the G540 driver?
[07:24:49] <Valen> nope
[07:24:52] <Nostoc> wait let me ask
[07:25:02] <Nostoc> how can I change the Estop from active low to active high and back
[07:25:07] <Nostoc> ?
[07:25:10] <Nostoc> I think thats the real problem
[07:25:14] <Valen> that i have done
[07:25:19] <Valen> but i forgot how lol
[07:25:31] <Nostoc> goddamn
[07:25:45] <Nostoc> i'm about to go take a bunch of percoset and watch the spice girls movie ffs
[07:26:09] <Valen> parport.0.pin-10-in-not
[07:26:16] <Valen> vs parport.0.pin-10-in
[07:26:30] <Valen> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/emc_linux_enhanced_machine_control/42765-emc_-_estop_active_high.html
[07:29:27] <Nostoc> I cant even tell which is the parport for estop
[07:29:34] <Nostoc> none of them say estop parport
[07:29:48] <Nostoc> nvm'
[07:31:24] <Nostoc> 4x4Gantrykins.hal:52: Pin 'parport.0.pin-15-not' does not exist
[07:31:55] <Nostoc> is this the line to edit???
[07:31:56] <Nostoc> net estop-ext <= parport.0.pin-15-not
[07:32:00] <Nostoc> vs
[07:32:00] <Valen> are you using it as an input or output?
[07:32:02] <Nostoc> net estop-ext <= parport.0.pin-15-in
[07:32:03] <Valen> yeah
[07:32:07] <Valen> i believe so
[07:32:12] <Nostoc> I changed it from in to not
[07:32:24] <Valen> i'm guessing it'll be in-not
[07:32:26] <Nostoc> and got that pin-15-not does not exist
[07:32:31] <Valen> pin-15-in-not
[07:33:26] <Nostoc> bingo
[07:33:31] <Nostoc> but now I get a new error
[07:33:37] <Nostoc> although I am able to load EMC2
[07:33:46] <Nostoc> and when I use the Estop it works
[07:33:52] <Nostoc> and I can press power on (F2)
[07:33:53] <Valen> getting better
[07:33:56] <Nostoc> when I hit F2 I get
[07:34:13] <Nostoc> joint 0 on limit switch error
[07:34:30] <Nostoc> for all of those
[07:34:39] <Nostoc> joint 0, joint 1, joint 2, joint 3
[07:35:00] <Valen> it says your limit switches are pressed
[07:35:12] <Nostoc> so I need to invert those too then right?
[07:35:14] <Valen> i'm guessing its an active high/low thing
[07:35:16] <Valen> yeah
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[07:36:48] <Nostoc> asdfhasjkldhflasdjhfasdjkfhasjkldhfjasdhksdhlkfa
[07:36:54] <Nostoc> so fucking close
[07:36:55] <Valen> hrm?
[07:36:58] <Nostoc> all three axes move
[07:37:01] <Nostoc> but not the slave
[07:37:03] <Nostoc> goddammit
[07:37:12] <Valen> that would be the world cordinate thing
[07:37:30] <Valen> try a mdi move
[07:37:44] <Valen> real small in case they go in oposite directions or something silly
[07:38:11] <psha[work]> Nostoc: switch world/joint mode
[07:39:26] <Valen> yeah thats in the view tab aparently
[07:39:37] <Nostoc> switching between the two
[07:39:51] <Nostoc> OK I switch to world
[07:39:51] <Nostoc> and then
[07:39:56] <Nostoc> try to a a manual jog and it gives me
[07:40:29] <Nostoc> wait
[07:40:47] <Valen> if you get an error it'll put it into estop
[07:41:37] <Nostoc> all joints must be homed to go into teleop mode
[07:41:53] <Nostoc> and then before it was giving me an error where it was saying something about joint 0, which I am unable to reproduce
[07:42:06] <Valen> guess you need to home your axies
[07:42:47] <Nostoc> how
[07:43:05] <Nostoc> nvm
[07:43:07] <Nostoc> stupid question
[07:45:43] <Nostoc> what decides where home is?
[07:45:52] <Nostoc> the first thing the machine decided to home was the Z axis
[07:45:59] <Nostoc> and it just kept plunging, as if it were going to go into the table
[07:46:14] <Nostoc> furthermore, the DRO showed it going more positive (as in heading away from zero)
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[07:47:42] <Nostoc> I'm sorry if that is a stupid question
[07:47:52] <Nostoc> but honestly in mach3 I was never confronted with this
[07:48:56] <psha[work]> Nostoc: probably you have invalid Z direction pin or invalid homing direction
[07:49:09] <Nostoc> so just invert it?
[07:49:17] <psha[work]> when you jog Z is it going in correct direction?
[07:49:20] <psha[work]> pgdown - down
[07:49:22] <psha[work]> or up?
[07:50:36] <Nostoc> minus is up
[07:50:45] <Nostoc> page up is down
[07:50:47] <Nostoc> page down is up
[07:50:55] <psha[work]> so you have inverted Z dir
[07:50:57] <Nostoc> I thought these things were all subjective anyways
[07:51:10] <Jymmm> nope
[07:51:13] <Nostoc> based on how you look at the machine, like the X and Y/A I could just rotate the machine
[07:51:28] <Nostoc> also, I do not have home/limit switches currently installed
[07:51:32] <Nostoc> but I do have hard stops on the machine
[07:51:45] <Valen> you need to do manual homing then
[07:51:53] <Nostoc> how?
[07:51:58] <Valen> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config_ini_homing.html
[07:52:29] <Valen> we ran without homing for ages ;->
[07:52:37] <Valen> i just got it working like 3 days ago
[07:52:45] <Valen> but sounds like you need it for your kins
[07:53:09] <Nostoc> I have the switches, they're hall effect home made
[07:53:17] <Nostoc> I am just planning to use a touchplate first
[07:53:23] <Nostoc> then cut out the mounts for the switches
[07:53:37] <Nostoc> the hall effect sensor is literally just a little DIP package
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[07:57:48] <Nostoc> also, how do you invert an axis (z axis) from the hal
[07:58:02] <Nostoc> is it by changing out to out-in
[07:58:03] <Jymmm> -
[07:58:16] <Nostoc> just add a - to the end of it?
[07:58:31] <Nostoc> to the z dir pin?
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[07:58:50] <Jymmm> No in your ini file
[07:58:57] <Jymmm> No, in your ini file
[07:59:00] <psha[work]> you need to invert z dir
[07:59:27] <psha[work]> setp parport.0.pin-02-out-invert 1
[07:59:37] <psha[work]> for example
[07:59:45] <psha[work]> that'll invert output
[07:59:48] <Nostoc> net zdir => parport.0.pin-07-out
[07:59:50] <Nostoc> becomes
[07:59:56] <Nostoc> net zdir => parport.0.pin-07-out-invert 1
[07:59:57] <Nostoc> ?
[08:00:10] <psha[work]> becomes net zdir => parport.0.pin-07-out
[08:00:12] <psha[work]> + line
[08:00:20] <psha[work]> setp parport.0.pin-07-out-invert 1
[08:00:31] <psha[work]> that tells parport module that this pin is inverted
[08:00:48] <Nostoc> true
[08:00:49] <Nostoc> thanks
[08:02:43] <Jymmm> psha[work]: What hapened to jsut inverting the SCALE ?
[08:03:21] <psha[work]> wazzup? he has invalid Z direction
[08:03:31] <psha[work]> pgup -> goes down
[08:03:47] <Jymmm> psha[work]: Exactly, so make SCALE negative
[08:04:13] <psha[work]> probably :] but why not to invert dir pin?
[08:04:16] <psha[work]> same
[08:04:22] <Nostoc> well inverting the pin worked
[08:04:31] <Nostoc> but
[08:04:38] <Nostoc> I read this webpage about homing
[08:04:49] <Nostoc> nvm
[08:09:44] <Nostoc> I do not have home switches, I read this document http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config_ini_homing.html
[08:10:03] <Nostoc> says there are four possible homing types
[08:10:18] <Nostoc> I set search_vel and latch_vel to 0
[08:10:36] <Nostoc> there was no home_use_index value in the ini, so I couldn't set it to no
[08:11:09] <Nostoc> when I go from local go global view (to get the slave axis to work), it gives me an error telling me I must home my axes before I do that
[08:11:24] <Valen> you still have to "home" the axies
[08:11:49] <Nostoc> how? the document you provided didn't explain that
[08:12:32] <Valen> first I'd stick a "NO_FORCE_HOMING = 1" in the [TRAJ] Section
[08:12:46] <Valen> and see if that fixes it good enough for you
[08:13:18] <Valen> also I'd look into POSITION_FILE = position.txt
[08:14:55] <Valen> I *think* if you have the vel's set to 0 that when you press home in axis it will mark the axis as being "homed"
[08:15:25] <Valen> so if you run the machine into your hard stops, then power up then tell it to home each axis it will probably do for you
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[08:15:53] <Nostoc> ok
[08:15:57] <Nostoc> I was a fool, you are right
[08:16:17] <Nostoc> having search and latch vel
[08:16:23] <Nostoc> allows you to home your axes in joint mode
[08:16:28] <Nostoc> and then switch to global mode
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[08:16:35] <Valen> cool
[08:16:37] <Nostoc> when I home them though, and switch to global mode
[08:16:40] <Nostoc> I get an error now
[08:17:19] <Nostoc> joint1 following error
[08:17:53] <Nostoc> and the machine trips (in EMC at least)
[08:18:24] <Valen> set your min and max ferror to really huge numbers to start with also whats your jog speed
[08:18:56] <Nostoc> also joint 1 is only assigned to the Y axis
[08:18:58] <Nostoc> not the A
[08:19:11] <Nostoc> X0Y1Z2A3
[08:19:17] <Nostoc> one second
[08:19:29] <Nostoc> my maximum jog speed is 600ipm on that axis
[08:19:41] <Nostoc> currently it is set at 58 though
[08:19:45] <Valen> try dropping the jog speed to say 10
[08:19:50] <Valen> or even 5
[08:19:55] <Nostoc> ok
[08:19:58] <Valen> just for the time being
[08:19:58] <Nostoc> should I drop the max too?
[08:20:04] <Valen> nah should be fine
[08:20:10] <Valen> just drag the slider
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[08:21:18] <Nostoc> ok
[08:21:20] <Nostoc> still no dice
[08:21:32] <Nostoc> I switch to world mode
[08:21:42] <Nostoc> joint 1 following error
[08:21:49] <Valen> did you make the min and max ferror like 5000?
[08:22:03] <Valen> (and restart axis)
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[08:24:58] <Nostoc> holy fuck it finally worked
[08:25:01] <Nostoc> you rule
[08:25:09] <Nostoc> fuck yeah dude
[08:25:12] <Nostoc> it's 4:25am
[08:25:30] <Nostoc> now all I have to do is invert the a axis
[08:28:59] <Valen> I think you do that by making its co-ordinate -Y or whatever
[08:29:06] <Valen> so XYZ-Y
[08:29:15] <Valen> (well thats one way anyway)
[08:29:20] <Nostoc> psha mentioned earlier
[08:29:21] <Nostoc> setp parport.0.pin-07-out-invert 1
[08:29:28] <Nostoc> just setp -invert 1
[08:29:44] <Valen> 2 different ways of doing it
[08:30:03] <Valen> one makes the a axis just run backwards, the other changes how it looks to EMC
[08:30:17] <Valen> you just need to see which way works better for your head
[08:30:19] <Valen> (if you care)
[08:30:43] <Valen> you will want to ask somebody who knows more why your getting ferrors on a stepper machine but anyway
[08:30:59] <Nostoc> not too concerned
[08:31:08] <Nostoc> to me, inverting the parallel port makes sense
[08:31:15] <Nostoc> I know I could rewire the phases of the motor too
[08:31:19] <Nostoc> w/e
[08:31:32] <Valen> just need to make sure the direction its moving on the screen lines up with the direction it moves irl
[08:31:36] <Valen> but at the moment it matters not
[08:31:51] <Nostoc> i've been at this for 7 hours straight, just in this chat room
[08:31:56] <Valen> lol
[08:32:13] <Nostoc> all to save 175$ on mach3 and be able to use RTAI
[08:32:19] <Nostoc> goddamn
[08:32:37] <awallin_> unless you have a really bad real-time machine then ferror on stepper-machine is some kind of misconfig...
[08:32:44] <Nostoc> what is ferror?
[08:32:54] <awallin_> following error
[08:33:13] <Nostoc> in steps or inches?
[08:33:27] <Nostoc> it represents the difference in motion between the two motors?
[08:33:39] <Valen> between commanded and actual position
[08:33:51] <Valen> its more of a servo thing
[08:34:05] <awallin_> in length units (mm or inch I guess)
[08:34:07] <Valen> which makes it interesting to get on a stepper machine
[08:37:37] <Nostoc> So its actually irrelevant to an open loop stepper system?
[08:38:04] <Nostoc> god, I love a shot of whiskey at the end of the night
[08:38:54] <Nostoc> man this whole process reminds me of playing games as a kid and writing bots for them, just spending hours editing a .ini
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[08:40:49] <Nostoc> well either way
[08:40:54] <Nostoc> thanks for all the help
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[08:42:02] <Valen> well its not irrelivent
[08:42:09] <Valen> but it shouldn't really be happening
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[08:43:05] <Nostoc> well isn't it irrelevant in the sense that it is measuring the error between reported position and commanded position
[08:43:30] <Nostoc> but since I don't have any encoder attached, the reported position will always stay the same
[08:43:35] <Valen> emc still has a commanded and actual position even with steppers
[08:43:51] <Nostoc> they should always be the same though, correct?
[08:44:09] <Nostoc> or some arbitrary number like null
[08:44:31] <Nostoc> I guess what I should ask
[08:44:40] <Nostoc> is will it effect my performance at all on accuracy?
[08:46:10] <Valen> they just really should be equal
[08:46:22] <Valen> probably not
[08:46:34] <Valen> ask cradek or jepler when they are on
[08:47:04] <Nostoc> ok
[08:50:38] <psha[work]> ferror may raise when your base thread is not capable to serve high speed with many steps
[08:52:53] <Nostoc> so for a stepper it would be a measure of how many times the program missed steps internally then? Like EMC tells driver to make a step, step driver does nothing, ferror rises? (all on the software side)
[08:53:50] <psha[work]> i suspect yes
[08:54:15] <psha[work]> but it may catch up if you ferror value is high enought
[08:54:43] <psha[work]> so if you set very low ferror you need high class system
[08:54:49] <psha[work]> but again - that's only my thoughts :)
[08:56:12] <Valen> i wouldn't worry too much if it only happens when you hit the world button
[08:57:05] <Nostoc> interesting to know, it's strange how much of this doesn't seem to exist in mach3
[08:57:27] <Nostoc> kind of feels like I was getting fleeced, i'm looking forward to accuracy testing tomorrow
[08:58:21] <alex_joni> a step generator will always output steps when it should
[08:58:23] <psha[work]> much of this is not exposed to user :)
[08:58:37] <alex_joni> but it can come to the situation of ferror for a step machine, if it is misconfigured
[08:58:48] <alex_joni> e.g. you are asking the step generator to output more than it can
[08:59:14] <Nostoc> thats what I figured, or if the real time kernel got interrupted, or some other externality
[08:59:21] <Nostoc> I'm going to sleep, thanks for all the help
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[09:07:27] <alex_joni> if the real time kernel gets interrupted the machine is most likely unusable from then on
[09:08:32] <Valen> mine seems to work ok
[09:08:41] <Valen> i get a rtdelay every time i start
[09:08:46] <Valen> its an openGL thing
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[16:28:09] <Jymmm> Just FYI... Reynolds Wrap (standard) aluminum foil: .65mil == 0.00065" == 0.01651mm
[16:28:58] <jdhNC> what about heavy duty
[16:29:17] <Jymmm> .94mil
[16:29:46] <Jymmm> Super Duty: 1.40mil == 0.0014"
[16:35:30] <Jymmm> So, that's not too bad a thickness for a consumer available foil ($6)
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[16:36:46] <Loetmichel> re @ home
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[16:56:47] <JT-Shop> any ideas on how to write a sub to create a rectangle path with corner radius
[16:57:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: What if you draw it in inkscape, then view the raw SVG to see where it breaks it apart on the start/stop of the corners
[16:58:03] <Jymmm> Then use that to create a sub
[16:58:13] <cradek> axis-aligned or arbitrary?
[16:58:21] <JT-Shop> no I want to enter depth, width, and corner radius in ngcgui
[16:58:23] <cradek> the axis-aligned case is awfully easy
[16:58:28] <JT-Shop> axis aligned
[16:58:45] <JT-Shop> hint please :)
[16:58:45] <cradek> ok where specifically are you stuck?
[16:59:02] <Jymmm> In the beginning...
[16:59:22] <JT-Shop> how to start , yes Jymmm
[16:59:45] <JT-Shop> trying to think of the simple way to get there
[17:00:03] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I think cradek is writting it up. dont you have to consider cutter diam too?
[17:00:09] <JT-Shop> for my plasma so XY location mean nothing
[17:00:21] <Jymmm> I guess not =)
[17:00:30] <JT-Shop> well there is kerf width
[17:00:40] <Jymmm> ah, and depth?
[17:00:50] <JT-Shop> no depth just the path
[17:01:10] <Jymmm> Ok, you said depth =) I didn't think lasma had that
[17:02:02] <JT-Shop> so incremental is +- X and Y from current location more or less but I don't the idea on the corner radius yet
[17:02:23] <Jymmm> In alloys, do the numbers mean anything, or just random? Like 6061
[17:02:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I think it has to accountfor thr the start/stop of lenghts too
[17:02:49] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: depth as in Y size and width as in X size
[17:02:57] <Jymmm> ah
[17:03:05] <JT-Shop> they mean what the alloy is
[17:03:18] <JT-Shop> 6061T6 is most common for aluminum
[17:04:24] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Right, but the 60xx doesn't mean like "aluminum alloy" or anythin like that, does it?
[17:04:40] <Jymmm> compared to Nickle 201 as example
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[17:05:07] <JT-Shop> well aluminum can be 60xx 75xx 20xx etc
[17:05:27] <Jymmm> Ok, and what does 75xx mean?
[17:05:50] <JT-Shop> go to mcmaster carr and go to the aluminum page
[17:05:59] <Jymmm> ok
[17:06:09] <JT-Shop> http://www.mcmaster.com/#aluminum/=e8cy9t
[17:06:36] <JT-Shop> http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-aluminum-sheets/=e8cygz
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[17:10:30] <Jymmm> How hard do you think it would be to bend/fold 3mil SS ?
[17:10:46] <Jymmm> by hand
[17:10:55] <JT-Shop> so the length of each straight line will be size - 2 x radius
[17:11:54] <Jymmm> all for corners having the same radius?
[17:12:10] <JT-Shop> yea
[17:12:46] <Jymmm> Ok, lets say a 3" x 5" rectangle with 1/2" radius corners.
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[17:13:57] <jdhNC> I have a sub that does that (mostly well)
[17:14:21] <JT-Shop> with a corner radius?
[17:14:54] <jdhNC> yeah
[17:14:58] <jdhNC> rounded rectangles
[17:15:45] <JT-Shop> cool, can I steal it for my plasma? my mind is mush today and not working well... feel like Kenneth a bit
[17:17:29] <jdhNC> http://www.artichoke.org/roundedrect1.ngc
[17:17:38] <JT-Shop> thanks
[17:18:19] <jdhNC> that's close anyway... the lead-in for G42/G41 are not so great... I'd get rid of that part
[17:18:52] <JT-Shop> ok that gives me a good starting point... may kick start my brain :)
[17:19:29] <Jymmm> jdhNC: What is the 4.25 in this --> #101=4.25 (lower left X)
[17:20:29] <jdhNC> that was for an inside cut-out for a panel
[17:20:49] <JT-Shop> you ever have any issues using radius format for arcs? the manual warns about using them for some reason
[17:20:53] <Jymmm> Ah
[17:21:42] <jdhNC> didn't have any problems, I've done IJ also with no problems
[17:22:59] <jdhNC> that looks like an older version when I didn't know how the lead in worked
[17:23:18] <jdhNC> actually, I'm still unsure about the lead in, but i can make it work now.
[17:25:26] * JT-Shop goes to look at the pictures I made for the manual for I and J
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[17:55:37] <A2Sheds> yikes 60000 latency jitter (1.0ms) 2.2ghz core2 duo + 945 MSI board
[17:56:49] <A2Sheds> which Atom boards are still available with the real low numbers?
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[17:58:28] <Tom_itx> yes
[17:59:09] <A2Sheds> were there any Atom mini-itx with poor numbers?
[17:59:29] <Tom_itx> i hear the 510 are good and i have a 525
[17:59:58] <A2Sheds> what numbers were you getting?
[18:00:19] <Tom_itx> i don't recall now but it was acceptable
[18:00:42] <A2Sheds> <10000 ?
[18:00:51] <Tom_itx> around there
[18:01:35] <A2Sheds> I could swear this board was under 10K two years ago
[18:01:46] <Tom_itx> mmm i don't see the intel board on newegg anymore
[18:01:49] <A2Sheds> trying to get rid of all the older boards here
[18:01:50] <Tom_itx> the 510
[18:03:39] <Tom_itx> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
[18:03:46] <Tom_itx> that's the one i got
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[18:07:41] <Jymmm> Anyone into (off-theshelf) knives by chance? I'm looking for a bowie + machete/saw that can be batoned if anyone has some suggestions.
[18:08:28] <Tom_itx> getting ready for the apocalipse?
[18:08:30] <Tom_itx> still...
[18:09:05] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Sorta, looking for a replacement for my throw-away knife.
[18:10:28] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: throw-away as in, it's a POS and I know it is, so when it breaks I just throw it away =)
[18:11:06] <jdhNC> vs. plant it on the perp so you can pretend you had a legit reason to pop a cap in his ass?
[18:11:50] <Jymmm> jdhNC: Standard CYA disclaimer... I never actually "said" that.
[18:13:21] <Jymmm> I found this, but desc says it really doens't have any meat to it... http://thedarkblade.com/wp-content/uploads/Sog-Fusion-Jungle-Primitive.jpg
[18:16:27] <fragalot> i'm not sure I like that blade
[18:16:30] <fragalot> I prefer a smooth spine
[18:16:44] <fragalot> with sharp cornered edges
[18:17:02] <Jymmm> reviews says it's cheap steel anyway
[18:17:25] <fragalot> not used to that from sog :/
[18:18:03] <Jymmm> Yeah, I know. Seems to be hard to find a high carbon blade these days like that
[18:18:22] <fragalot> I still love my opinels the most
[18:18:29] <Jymmm> Even the gerber version is made in china and only comes with a 1yr warranty
[18:18:35] <fragalot> simple, cheap, bloody effective
[18:18:58] <fragalot> Jymmm: in europe, everyone is required to give 2 years of warranty by law, regardless of disclaimers
[18:19:29] <archivist> fragalot, I dont think so
[18:19:31] <Jymmm> fragalot: In EU yes, not the rest of the world, but Gerber is usually lifetime, except their version of that knife
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[18:19:50] <fragalot> Jymmm: yeah :P
[18:19:57] <andypugh> cradek: Did you write G76?
[18:21:00] <Jymmm> fragalot: This is a cool knife http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Specialty-Knives-FX21-N-Revolver/dp/B001RL0SO4
[18:21:18] <andypugh> pcw_home: It looks like the package has arrived, but the delivery driver took it back with him.
[18:21:38] <fragalot> Jymmm: indeed it is
[18:21:59] <fragalot> Jymmm: I dislike the sheath though
[18:22:12] <Jymmm> fragalot: why?
[18:22:42] <fragalot> looks like the handle of the blade will snag on anything you walk past
[18:23:10] <syyl> looks more like a toy :D
[18:23:26] <Jymmm> fragalot: I guess you could sew an extra velcro loop near the belt line
[18:24:42] <fragalot> meh :P I prefer the type of sheath that's fully closed
[18:24:49] <Jymmm> syyl: Yeah, but I've needed a saw a couple of times.
[18:25:02] <Jymmm> fragalot: Well get your sewing machine out and GIT ER DONE!
[18:25:11] <fragalot> Jymmm: a laplander is well worth the extra carry weight :P
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[18:25:23] <syyl> hmm
[18:25:49] <Jymmm> fragalot: wth is laplander?
[18:25:53] <fragalot> Jymmm: folding saw
[18:25:58] <fragalot> a bloody good one
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[18:26:29] <Jymmm> fragalot: Ah, I have a folding one I use aroudn the yard, but I don't want to carry 10,000 items if I don't have to.
[18:26:36] <fragalot> :P
[18:26:56] <Jymmm> fragalot: I try to make everything multiple purpose is posisble.
[18:27:10] <andypugh> http://www.raymears.com/Bushcraft_Product/73-Bahco-Laplander-Folding-Saw/ ?
[18:27:12] <fragalot> I only carry my SOG powerAssist, peanut lighter and a small Nr. 7 opinel knife
[18:27:22] <fragalot> andypugh: Exactly that one
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[18:28:02] <Jymmm> Mine is like that.
[18:28:11] <Jymmm> but fiskars
[18:28:23] <fragalot> :)
[18:28:27] <fragalot> It's a good size
[18:28:46] <fragalot> speaking of which, I need to service my opinel
[18:28:56] <jdhNC> kinky.
[18:28:57] <fragalot> it doesn't pop arm hairs anymore
[18:29:03] <syyl> dito for my leatherman...
[18:29:13] <syyl> got a lot of molding sand in it
[18:29:18] <fragalot> D:
[18:29:36] <syyl> makes a horrible sound when opened
[18:29:47] <fragalot> sadly, I can imagine.
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[18:30:12] <Jymmm> syyl: It's a knife, not a prybar/spoon/spatula
[18:30:30] <Tom_itx> spork
[18:30:46] <andypugh> I managed to spill shampoo on my SAK, and some of the blades really don't want to open now. Perhaps I need to try soaking it for a few weeks.
[18:30:59] <fragalot> ...how the
[18:31:08] <syyl> most of the time, my leatherman has to stand in for the tool thats not at hand...
[18:31:10] <A2Sheds> heh, 5000 jitter with an old Athlon 1800 with acpi still on
[18:31:11] <fragalot> also - that's one of the features I like about an opinel
[18:31:17] <syyl> :D
[18:31:26] <fragalot> the handle is designed to be whacked against a table to assist in opening it if it snags
[18:31:29] <fragalot> :D
[18:31:36] <syyl> but i try, not to pry with it
[18:31:54] <Jymmm> Ignore the dairy content in this video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im13OC_Nph4&feature=player_embedded#!
[18:31:57] <syyl> have seen a few brocken leatherman blades...
[18:32:33] <fragalot> leathermans are quite rubbish, as are most multitools, when it comes to snapping blades
[18:32:45] <syyl> yes
[18:32:57] <syyl> but i like it a lot more than my victorinox multitool
[18:33:09] <fragalot> I can imagine, they're rubbish :P
[18:33:18] <syyl> not really
[18:33:21] <syyl> but a bit clumsy
[18:33:21] <fragalot> i've got a gerber too, and.. my SOG towers above it.
[18:33:28] <fragalot> clumsy is rubbish
[18:33:29] <fragalot> :P
[18:33:32] <syyl> gerber looks like...
[18:33:35] <syyl> dont know
[18:33:40] <syyl> made by a child ;D
[18:33:43] <fragalot> yeah..
[18:33:51] <fragalot> it works,... just not very good
[18:34:07] <syyl> with the leatherman wave i am pretty happy
[18:34:25] <fragalot> :)
[18:34:27] <syyl> sits all day long on my belt
[18:34:32] <syyl> gets use all the time
[18:34:37] <fragalot> I just like my SOG because of the EPIC needle nose pliers in it
[18:34:38] <Jymmm> I like my wave, just wish I could swap a couple of the tools out
[18:34:48] <fragalot> and the servicabillity
[18:35:02] <syyl> hmm
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[18:36:47] <fragalot> very fine nose, extremely good power conversion
[18:36:51] <fragalot> zero play
[18:37:23] <syyl> but the blade sits inside?
[18:38:05] <Jymmm> The one WITH the LED has bad reviews http://www.amazon.com/Tool-Logic-SLP2-Flashlight-Magnesium/dp/B00140QD38, but I LOVE mine (without the LED, has thicker firesteel) http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013L2FE4/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_sr_3?pf_rd_p=486539851&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe-1&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B00140QD38&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=17R926SETYEWQEJCHSJD
[18:38:20] <fragalot> syyl: http://www.amazon.com/SOG-Specialty-Knives-S66-N-PowerAssist/dp/B001MYYO28
[18:38:33] <syyl> oh
[18:38:36] <fragalot> blade sits on the outside, flips open reasilly
[18:38:38] <syyl> dont know that one
[18:38:54] <syyl> only the "old" ones from SOG
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[18:39:05] <syyl> i think that needs a closer look
[18:39:09] <fragalot> syyl: I especially like the grind they used for the needlenose
[18:39:23] <syyl> owning another multitool should not hurt...
[18:39:27] <fragalot> can't really see it from the pictures
[18:40:44] <Jymmm> From atchign the video... I HATE it
[18:40:47] <fragalot> syyl: You won't regret it :P
[18:40:50] <fragalot> Jymmm: which?
[18:41:25] <Jymmm> you try to grip the handle, it's going to "cut" into your palm
[18:41:28] <syyl> uh
[18:41:32] <Jymmm> That sog
[18:41:33] <syyl> spring assisted
[18:41:39] <syyl> that would be a problem here
[18:41:39] <fragalot> Jymmm: it doesn't
[18:41:49] <Jymmm> The early leatherman's did, the wave doesn't
[18:41:54] <fragalot> syyl: Yeah I can see that beeing an issue - but the spring doesn't work if you just tighten it a little bit
[18:42:15] <Jymmm> hold on...
[18:42:16] <fragalot> Jymmm: I have to press half as hard with the SOG than I have to with any other multitool i've used
[18:42:35] <fragalot> the ONLY gripe is that you need to open the tool completely to get to the tools
[18:43:36] <fragalot> syyl: i've set mine so that the spring is nearly completely neutralized by friction
[18:43:53] <syyl> hmm
[18:44:06] <syyl> try to get my hands on one and try it out
[18:44:08] <Jymmm> Look at the edge his left index finger is sitting on... http://i54.tinypic.com/244qf82.jpg
[18:44:08] <syyl> looks interesting
[18:44:31] <syyl> and now
[18:44:35] <syyl> heading for the workshop
[18:44:42] <syyl> time to make some chips ;)
[18:44:48] <Jymmm> This is going to bite into your palm if gripped tightly.
[18:44:50] <fragalot> Jymmm: you can't see the black plastic holding the knive spring mech in that vid
[18:44:54] <fragalot> it doesn't
[18:45:04] <Jymmm> fragalot: PLASTIC?! wth
[18:45:06] * fragalot considers a high res pic
[18:45:11] <fragalot> brb
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[18:45:15] <Jymmm> it's a video scrn cap
[18:45:46] <Jymmm> I donlt need assisted blades anyway.
[18:46:09] <fragalot> I bought it for the pliers
[18:46:11] <Jymmm> plus the realease isn't in a position that's natural it seems
[18:46:25] <Jymmm> mid-handle
[18:47:13] <Jymmm> fragalot: I understand, if you get a chance look at The Wave
[18:47:39] <fragalot> Jymmm: that release is only for closing it
[18:48:22] * fragalot uploads a high res image
[18:48:57] <fragalot> http://ompldr.org/vYWprOA/_MG_9495.JPG
[18:49:32] <Jymmm> Yeah, I still dont care for it in comparison
[18:49:32] <fragalot> note the fine tip on the pliers - that's and the gear tech it's got is why i really got it
[18:49:46] <fragalot> haven't regretted it since :)
[18:50:15] <Jymmm> http://www.leatherman.com/product/Wave
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[18:50:27] <Jymmm> see how the handle is folded over
[18:50:53] <fragalot> when in plier mode or tool mode?
[18:51:05] <Jymmm> plier
[18:51:18] <fragalot> the edge is folded over on the sog too o.O
[18:51:30] <Jymmm> not in the photo you showed me
[18:51:39] <fragalot> oh you mean all the way folded over
[18:51:44] <Jymmm> yes
[18:52:15] <fragalot> iunno it's never bothered me, and I use this thing to cut piano wire
[18:52:19] <Jymmm> so if you are gripping something hard with the pliers, the handle isn't biting in you palm
[18:52:34] <Jymmm> fragalot: try cutting a heavy coat hanger
[18:52:38] <fragalot> I have
[18:52:49] <fragalot> it works, without discomfort
[18:53:03] <fragalot> even cutting coins in half works fine
[18:53:24] <Jymmm> MY 1st leatherman has that issue is why I know
[18:53:48] <andypugh> I have one of these: http://www.multitool.org/Miscellaneous-Tools/Medium-Tools/2007/10/10/spyderco-spyderwrench-byrdwrench.html It's pretty cool but I have stopped carrying it (locking blade, legal reasons)
[18:53:51] <fragalot> and i'm saying that, dispite what it may look like on the pictures, this one doesn't :P
[18:53:56] <fragalot> from experience
[18:54:07] <fragalot> andypugh: I *HATE* the ban on locking blades
[18:54:14] <fragalot> they are so much safer than non locking ones
[18:54:21] <fragalot> non locking blades are insane
[18:54:23] <Jymmm> ban? where?
[18:54:35] <syyl_> hmm
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[18:54:47] <syyl_> i am happy that locked blades are not banned here
[18:54:55] <syyl_> only one handed and spring assissted
[18:54:58] <fragalot> Jymmm: UK
[18:55:14] <fragalot> syyl: surely the wave counts as one handed opening?
[18:55:16] <Jymmm> fragalot: thats fucked up for so many reasons. Are straight blades banned too?
[18:55:19] <syyl_> but, on a multitool, one handed seems not to be an issue
[18:55:22] <fragalot> Jymmm: No idea.
[18:55:25] <syyl_> as its a tool
[18:55:29] <syyl_> not a knife ;)
[18:55:34] <fragalot> syyl: Ah xD
[18:55:53] <syyl_> carrying it for a few years
[18:55:57] <syyl_> and had never problems
[18:56:13] <Jymmm> fragalot: Carry a machete on your belt and let me know =)
[18:56:19] <syyl_> and if i get a problem with it
[18:56:30] <syyl_> i will start carrying a axe on my belt.
[18:56:45] <fragalot> Jymmm: i'm not from the uk
[18:56:55] <fragalot> syyl: xD
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[18:57:11] <fragalot> Jymmm: I think I know why the handle design doesn't bother me as much
[18:57:22] <fragalot> when I grip these pliers, I grip them nearer to the end where it's thick
[18:57:29] <Jymmm> ah
[18:57:35] <fragalot> .. Where it's designed to be held really
[18:57:47] <fragalot> no point in wasting leverage :P
[18:58:23] <Jymmm> not always easy when your trying to grip a rounded nut and turn the SOB
[18:58:48] <fragalot> works most of the time with this thing
[18:59:00] <fragalot> when it doesn't it's time for the proper tools :P
[18:59:21] <fragalot> (seriously, that gear system may look like a gimmick but damn it works)à
[18:59:31] <Jymmm> fragalot: Not when you are 50miles from nowhere =)
[18:59:47] <syyl_> when i am 50miles from nowhere
[18:59:50] <syyl_> i have my car with me
[18:59:54] <fragalot> ^
[19:00:01] <syyl_> and in there, i have propper tools ;)
[19:00:05] <Jymmm> which is broke done
[19:00:21] <fragalot> if you can't fix a problem with the tools in my toolbox, you shouldn't be around tools.
[19:00:33] <fragalot> and where I go, that box goes. :P
[19:00:37] <syyl_> then i am doomed
[19:00:46] <syyl_> and start to run circles and cry
[19:00:48] <syyl_> ;)
[19:01:10] <Jymmm> fragalot: so, whats in this "toolbox" of yours
[19:01:30] <fragalot> Everything once should need
[19:01:34] <syyl_> zip ties and duct tape ;)
[19:01:46] <Jymmm> fragalot: elaborate, give details
[19:01:54] <Jymmm> syyl_: and bailing wire
[19:02:02] <syyl_> ah
[19:02:11] <syyl_> and one or two vice grips
[19:02:17] <syyl_> good for everything
[19:02:26] <Jymmm> syyl_: exhaust manifold would melt that stuff instantly
[19:03:32] <Jymmm> Who makes high carbon knives as a norm?
[19:03:38] <fragalot> all common and less common types of screwdrivers, most common pliers, 2 sets of wrenches, sockets, saw, various bits & bobs such as screws, bolts, nuts, some copper wire, zip ties, tape, WAGO connectors, those clamps for steel cables, 2 crowbars, gas torch, WD40, allen keys with & without ball end
[19:03:41] <Jymmm> Everything now is fucking SS
[19:03:43] <fragalot> torch
[19:04:02] <fragalot> and more things that I can't remember off of the top of my head
[19:04:04] <Jymmm> fragalot: crowbar and torch!?
[19:04:12] <Jymmm> seriously?
[19:04:15] <fragalot> rag, nylon stocking,..
[19:04:18] <fragalot> Jymmm: yes
[19:04:23] <fragalot> it's not really a crowbar
[19:04:31] <syyl_> i have a folding spade under my seat...
[19:04:34] <fragalot> it's more of a crowbar with a sharp hook forged on the end
[19:04:35] <Jymmm> fragalot: wtf kind of truck do you drive? 24 clynders?
[19:04:38] <fragalot> err
[19:04:42] <fragalot> meh
[19:04:53] <fragalot> Jymmm: it's one of those 3 story metal toolboxes
[19:04:59] <fragalot> everything fits in there nicely
[19:05:21] <fragalot> Jymmm: the gas torch is one of those small ones
[19:05:21] <Jymmm> fragalot: sounds like a portable shop work truck, welding rig outfit
[19:05:30] <Jymmm> fragalot: ok, but still.
[19:05:39] <fragalot> Jymmm: like I said
[19:05:47] <fragalot> if you can't fix it with the tools i've got in there, ydiw
[19:06:03] <fragalot> (granted if it's something like a broken axle you're done for regardless)
[19:06:07] <Jymmm> fragalot: Try a axle yoke
[19:06:21] <fragalot> time to call in a tow truck :P
[19:06:27] <Jymmm> lol
[19:06:37] <fragalot> no but seriously
[19:06:47] <fragalot> does your toolbox not contain a pry bar of sorts?
[19:07:05] <Jymmm> I up'ed our AAA membership to the Gold package... allows for 4x 100 mile tows per year
[19:07:20] <syyl_> of course, fragalot
[19:07:23] <fragalot> oh I also have a chisel or 2, plugs, spare power socket plug (male),..
[19:07:31] <fragalot> Jymmm: you need a new car xD
[19:07:41] <Jymmm> fragalot: No, not really. I have one crowbar that sits behnd the drillpress
[19:07:54] <syyl_> drillpress in the car? crazy!
[19:07:55] <syyl_> ;)
[19:07:56] <fragalot> Jymmm: I go on-site a lot, hence carrying EVERYTHING
[19:07:59] <syyl_> *runs*
[19:08:07] <fragalot> and on-site is often in the middle of nowhere
[19:08:16] <Jymmm> syyl_: Not in, ON
[19:08:32] <syyl_> ah, thats ok
[19:08:33] <fragalot> I dislike those mobile workshop vans
[19:08:33] <Jymmm> fragalot: Ok, I can see that. Then I'd carry a LOT more than that.
[19:08:47] <fragalot> Jymmm: that's just my personal toolbox, not the external tools
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[19:09:04] <fragalot> like the generator, array of battery powered tools, etc
[19:09:05] -!- automata has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
[19:10:17] <fragalot> both cheap & expensive (you don't want to use the 800 euro battery drill high up in the air in case it falls.. you use the "cheap" 300 euro ones >.>)
[19:10:53] <Jymmm> Right now, in my car I have 2 gal of water, food, 30ft of 1/2" rope, 100ft paracord, 1" webbing 30ft, locking carabiners (climbing rated), cheap bowie, multitool, flashlights, blackets, crestent wrench screwdriver, slimjim, plastic sheet, leather gloves
[19:11:07] <fragalot> http://www.instructables.com/id/Bedroom-Office-Workspace/
[19:11:10] <fragalot> now that's a bedroom
[19:11:13] <fragalot> :D
[19:11:39] <Jymmm> fragalot: Shiiiiiiiit, that's just the top of my W&D
[19:12:22] <Jymmm> oh and firesteels
[19:12:30] <fragalot> Jymmm: I've got water, roll of paracord, 5 3" ratchet webbing thingies, climbing safety gear, gloves & the other tools I might need for the job
[19:13:17] <Jymmm> fragalot: Oh I have rachet webbing too, but I just picked up real webbing rated at 4000 lbs to make harnesses for lowering to the ground.
[19:13:35] <fragalot> ah I don't have those :P
[19:14:02] <Jymmm> fragalot: Yeah, I can't afford/justify a REAL climbers harness.
[19:14:19] <fragalot> hehe
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[19:14:47] <fragalot> mine's just a 2nd hand from a climbing hall
[19:14:52] <Jymmm> fragalot: It's called a HASTY RESCUE HARNESS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhcqrQxEtG8
[19:15:09] <fragalot> Jymmm: what, a hanson?
[19:15:16] <Jymmm> fragalot: the webbing won't bite into flesh like rope will.
[19:15:26] <fragalot> aye i can imagine
[19:16:01] <fragalot> I prefer to avoid using it regardless :P
[19:16:16] <fragalot> if it gets used - it means something else went wrong
[19:16:30] <Jymmm> fragalot: I MUCH rather learn to tie something anyway, rather than rely upon something I don't have/breaks, gets lost
[19:16:43] <fragalot> ofcourse
[19:16:46] <Jymmm> fragalot: Of course, but rather know/have it than not.
[19:17:07] <fragalot> I know several methods of tying a rope harnass, but I only found one to be comfortable
[19:17:12] <andypugh> fragalot: It's one thing to live like that, another to boast about it on the internet. I would hazard a guess he doesn't have a girlfriend.
[19:17:16] <fragalot> No idea what it's called though O.O
[19:17:29] <fragalot> andypugh: Jymmm?
[19:17:30] <fragalot> xD
[19:17:33] <Jymmm> I REALLY want to test paracord 550 in lowering someone to the ground, but I'm chicken and dont have a plae to try it safely.
[19:17:42] <fragalot> Jymmm: NO
[19:17:51] <fragalot> 550 cord is *NOT* strong enough to safely lower someone
[19:18:12] <Jymmm> fragalot: Well, in its;f is not, but it might be if doubled
[19:18:20] <fragalot> i'd still be weary
[19:18:20] <andypugh> Try it with someone you don't like very much and forego the "safe;y" part
[19:18:22] <Jymmm> in a lower or jum scenario
[19:18:33] <Jymmm> andypugh: lol
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[19:18:44] <fragalot> Jymmm: in that situation, doubled, carefully..; maybe
[19:18:56] <andypugh> I have 1-tonne rated bootlaces, just in case. (spectra)
[19:18:59] <fragalot> if there is ANY other option... no O.O
[19:19:09] <Jymmm> fragalot: Well If you had 25ft of paracord, would you try to lower yourself, or jump?
[19:19:17] <fragalot> I've got some kevlar , no idea what that is rated for
[19:19:33] <fragalot> Jymmm: use the cord to assist rather than fully hang from it :P
[19:19:52] <Jymmm> fragalot: Well, sure, it aint a bingy cord =)
[19:19:59] <Jymmm> bungy
[19:20:01] <fragalot> hehe
[19:20:05] <fragalot> one-way
[19:20:09] <Jymmm> lol
[19:20:11] <Jymmm> very true
[19:20:26] <fragalot> but 550 really has a fine line of tolerance
[19:20:53] <syyl_> fine line between safe and fall?
[19:20:58] <fragalot> yeah
[19:21:02] <Jymmm> I found a way to store 50ft of paracord EASILY. so I really want to hit an indoor climbing place, have soemone spot me and give it a try
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[19:21:44] <fragalot> Jymmm: it might work if you're lucky - but don't rely on it to work every time
[19:22:02] <Jymmm> I also have some specialty rope thats double braided I want to try rated at 700lbs
[19:22:14] <fragalot> knots weaken a rope dramatically, and the build of 550 makes it hard to distribute the forces evenly over all of the strands
[19:22:30] <Jymmm> fragalot: If I EVER used it for that, it would be replaced no matter what.
[19:22:57] <fragalot> Jymmm: a LOT of factors come into play, far more than wear
[19:23:05] <Tom_itx> what do you need 700lb for?
[19:23:13] <fragalot> every movement you make creates extra strain, simply sneezing could cause it to snap
[19:23:29] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: It's antenna guy rope for emergency/portable setups
[19:23:30] <fragalot> it has when I tested it in my garage, atleast :P
[19:24:19] <fragalot> tested various knots too, butterfly, fix 8, double dragon, snapped every time if I bounced a bit
[19:24:41] <fragalot> hanging still was ok, hence the "fine line"
[19:24:42] <Jymmm> fragalot: snapped paracord?
[19:24:46] <fragalot> Jymmm: aye
[19:24:53] <fragalot> 7 strand 550
[19:25:13] <Jymmm> fragalot: I don't think 550 is a dynamic rope iirc
[19:25:21] <fragalot> it's not :P
[19:25:23] <Tom_itx> this stuff i got was like $1 a foot
[19:25:28] <fragalot> hence the emphasis on the strain
[19:25:46] <Jymmm> fragalot: which is why I want to test it =)
[19:25:54] <Jymmm> and try the antenna rope too
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[19:26:11] <Tom_itx> http://www.sitepro1.com/store/image.php?image=https://www.sitepro1.com/store/images/products/1266_large5.jpg&resize=W
[19:26:13] <Tom_itx> similar to that
[19:26:15] <fragalot> wrapped some climbing rope around one of the support beams in my garage, looped the 550 trough there and wrapped it around my carabiner as if on a rapid rapell
[19:26:28] <fragalot> slowly going down works
[19:26:33] <fragalot> bouncing a bit snaps it
[19:26:44] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: there is kevlar emergency rope too, talk about $$$$$
[19:26:50] <fragalot> I have some of that
[19:26:53] <fragalot> it's.. meh
[19:26:56] <Tom_itx> i used it for climbing
[19:27:02] <Tom_itx> and tree work etc
[19:27:03] <fragalot> strong for it's size, but not quite useful really
[19:27:09] <fragalot> and the wax coating is annoying as hell
[19:27:20] <Jymmm> fragalot: it only has ONE use imo =)
[19:27:34] <fragalot> Jymmm: weave it into tank armour?
[19:27:56] <Jymmm> fragalot: It's your GET THE FUCK OUT OF JAIL rope =)
[19:28:14] <fragalot> haha
[19:28:18] <Tom_itx> that's what shape charges are for
[19:28:33] <fragalot> i'm not really too worried about that
[19:28:36] <fragalot> this is belgium after all
[19:28:38] <Jymmm> Ah, here it is... http://www.synthetictextilesinc.com/supportham.html
[19:28:55] <fragalot> all you need to do to escape is kill someone and you'll get off better than someone that didn't pay a speeding ticket
[19:29:28] <fragalot> Jymmm: "We do not guarantee the break strength"
[19:29:30] <fragalot> xD
[19:29:40] <Jymmm> fragalot: of course not
[19:30:25] <Jymmm> I really need to buy 3/8" climbing rated, but I need more carabeners first
[19:30:35] <Jymmm> a lil at a time
[19:30:47] <Jymmm> those lil shits aint THAt cheap =)
[19:31:14] <Tom_itx> nope
[19:31:22] <Tom_itx> and you gotta throw them away once you use em a bit
[19:31:34] <Tom_itx> you use clip or screw type?
[19:31:43] <Tom_itx> i've got some of both
[19:32:04] <Tom_itx> and some little figure 8 thing i seldom use
[19:32:18] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: These are what I'm getting... http://www.rei.com/product/722363/black-diamond-keylock-mini-pearabiner
[19:32:31] <fragalot> I only have 2 screw carabiners
[19:32:41] <Jymmm> They won't snag when you are taking something out of it
[19:32:41] <fragalot> one half pear & one D
[19:32:43] <Tom_itx> yeah i hae some of those
[19:33:04] <Tom_itx> dunno what shape they are off hand
[19:33:06] <fragalot> pro tip ; don't get carabiners that are too small
[19:33:25] <Jymmm> fragalot: This is big despite it's "mini" description.
[19:33:44] <fragalot> I like beeing able to loop my rope trough it 3 times
[19:33:48] <Tom_itx> Jymmm is plainning for the apocalipse
[19:33:55] <fragalot> Tom_itx: as should everyone
[19:33:59] <Tom_itx> Jymmm what did you do when Y2k was approaching?
[19:33:59] <fragalot> for the rapture is eneigh
[19:34:00] <fragalot> -e
[19:34:15] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: laugh my ass off =)
[19:34:46] <syyl_> planing for the zombie apocalypse!
[19:34:56] <Tom_itx> i had a friend that stockpiled a bunch of crap
[19:34:58] <syyl_> maybe get a second chainsaw...
[19:35:00] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I got paid good money for Y2K planning crap
[19:35:04] <Tom_itx> took em forever to use it all up
[19:35:13] <fragalot> I've got so much "survival" gear that I never use
[19:35:37] <Jymmm> I believe in off-the-shelf stuff as much as I can actually.
[19:35:53] <Jymmm> AA instead of speacialty battery lights, etc
[19:36:06] <fragalot> Aye
[19:36:10] <syyl_> love mit 2AA fenix ;)
[19:36:26] <fragalot> I have tons of chinese Cree lights that run off of AA's
[19:36:28] <fragalot> they are amazing
[19:36:36] <Jymmm> You can't substitute a real carabiner for a D ring though (as exmaple)
[19:37:09] <fragalot> Jymmm: D ring as in cheap metal shackle, or a D shaped carabiner?
[19:37:18] <Tom_itx> make sure your rope is 110 stories long
[19:37:33] <Jymmm> And gawd help me if I ever find a MRE/shelf stable food that actually taste good and doens't have 5000mg of salt in it.
[19:37:43] <Jymmm> fragalot: cheap metal
[19:37:49] <fragalot> k
[19:38:09] <fragalot> iunno i've got some D rings that are rated higher than my carabiners
[19:38:15] <fragalot> granted, they weigh about 20x more
[19:38:16] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: so 1000ft of 7 stdranded paracord =)
[19:38:34] <fragalot> Jymmm: don't forget the weight of 1000ft of 550 will add to the strain :P
[19:38:39] <fragalot> and internal friction melting the strands
[19:38:52] <fragalot> you're better off with suction cups or an umbrella :3
[19:38:59] <Jymmm> fragalot: No , no silly... you pull out the srandas and lower yourself to the ground
[19:39:01] <fragalot> also - if you are really 110 stories up... base jump :D
[19:39:06] <fragalot> Jymmm: oohhh
[19:39:09] <Tom_itx> just pack a weather balloon
[19:39:11] <fragalot> :D
[19:39:30] <fragalot> tbf if i'm ever trapped in a fire I'd just hop out the window
[19:39:32] <Jymmm> rip stop FTW!!! or hang on to a sheet of plywood and "float" to the ground
[19:39:36] <fragalot> it's not like belgium has skyscrapers
[19:39:44] <fragalot> worst case I twist my ankle :P
[19:39:53] <Jymmm> crack your skull, etc.
[19:39:56] <Tom_itx> Jymmm that didn't work so well on myth busters
[19:40:04] <fragalot> Tom_itx: they did ti wrong!
[19:40:05] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Uh huh =)
[19:40:08] <fragalot> :D
[19:40:18] <syyl_> why tom? they reached the ground
[19:40:27] <Jymmm> Ker-slat!
[19:40:29] <Jymmm> slat
[19:40:32] <Jymmm> splat
[19:40:35] <syyl_> (almost in one piece)
[19:40:41] <fragalot> syyl_: but the board was rendered useless
[19:40:49] <fragalot> do you have any idea what those cost?
[19:40:53] <syyl_> ;)
[19:41:11] <syyl_> hm maybe the umbrella...
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[19:41:25] <syyl_> although it would look pretty silly
[19:41:28] <Tom_itx> i've got a serious question here
[19:41:29] <fragalot> or, you know, a parachute
[19:41:32] <syyl_> (but not very long)
[19:41:41] <syyl_> everyone could use a parachute
[19:41:41] <fragalot> Tom_itx: ?
[19:41:48] <Tom_itx> why is it when there is ot chatter Jymmm seems to be right in the middle of it??
[19:41:48] <Jymmm> I think I need to window shop at soem knife stores today, see whats available
[19:41:49] <Tom_itx> :)
[19:41:50] <syyl_> a umbrella is for the pro'S ;)
[19:42:10] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Hey, I resemble that remark!
[19:42:37] <syyl_> a
[19:42:51] <syyl_> on-topic: got my oneshot oiler almost mounted :D
[19:43:43] <syyl_> just need to make a manifold for all the hoses...
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[19:45:08] <fragalot> </conversation killer>
[19:45:09] <fragalot> :D
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[19:46:00] <JT-Shop> cradek: http://pastebin.com/myYWe5ry
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[19:48:20] <JT-Shop> and jdhNC ^^
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[20:05:51] <A2Sheds> when using servos with EMC, how close are the errors to just Jitter x Velocity?
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[20:08:21] <A2Sheds> for example, 25mm/sec travel rate x 0.00005 (5us) = 0.00125mm (1.25um) error
[20:08:45] <A2Sheds> woops (50us jitter)
[20:14:28] <fragalot> /away AFK.
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[20:23:01] <JT-Shop> jdhNC: thanks for the kick start earlier
[20:23:43] <spida> why would I want emc instead of mach3?
[20:25:33] <archivist> spida, position feedback available can use servos, 9 axis etc
[20:25:51] <archivist> proper screw cutting
[20:26:13] <jdhNC> anytime... that was my first ever gcode
[20:26:49] <jdhNC> not sure that one actually worked though :)
[20:35:48] <spida> machine in question has only 3 servos. are there still reasons to use emc over mach3?
[20:36:38] <archivist> mach3 cannot use servos properly
[20:37:59] <syyl_> it can, but only via step/dir
[20:38:32] <archivist> depends on definition of properly :)
[20:38:39] <syyl_> ;)
[20:38:44] <archivist> that is open loop
[20:38:55] <syyl_> yes
[20:39:04] <syyl_> *runs*
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[20:40:24] <andypugh> spida: You can write your own hardware drivers in EMC2, if you want. I don't know how easy that is in Mach.
[20:41:01] <andypugh> In some ways that's the big difference, if you don't like something about EMC2, you can change it.
[20:41:47] <andypugh> Also, EMC2 is much cheaper :-)
[20:42:06] <archivist> and more configurable probably
[20:42:20] <syyl_> oh
[20:42:26] <syyl_> reasons for emc over mach3?
[20:42:40] <Jymmm> It runs on windows!
[20:42:50] <syyl_> as a former mach3 user: emc doesnt sting in the eyes
[20:43:02] <archivist> widows is a disadvantage
[20:43:07] <archivist> windows
[20:43:14] <Jymmm> archivist: J/k
[20:43:43] <isssy> winds is a grafic interface of the comand DIR
[20:43:53] <andypugh> It's a percieved advantage for some people, until they realise that you probably don't want to be doing anything else with the CNC PC anyway.
[20:43:59] <spida> that would be a reason for me, but not for the mach3 user I am trying to presuade
[20:44:04] <spida> persuade
[20:44:38] <andypugh> So be honest, if they already use Mach3, and it does what they want, they might as well stick with Mach3.
[20:45:09] <archivist> spida, what is the machine
[20:45:16] <syyl_> and another reason: mesa hardware ;)
[20:45:28] <JT-Shop> blending
[20:45:29] <andypugh> I am convinced that EMC is technically better, but they both do the job if you just want to make stuff.
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[20:46:36] <JT-Shop> I could not use Mac tree on my plasma it could not maintain a smooth speed while cutting artsy fartsy stuff
[20:47:18] <archivist> it would be mack log for you
[20:48:22] <spida> archivist: a small mill/lathe with x/y/z/a (but a and spindle are mutually exclusive). was manual, refittet with 3 servos and vfd (but that cannot be controlled)
[20:48:55] <spida> archivist: about 40*20*10cm workingarea
[20:49:02] <spida> lots of backlash
[20:49:30] <archivist> backlash is a killer to good work unless you code around it
[20:49:59] <JT-Shop> I'd spend my time on backlash first if it is running at all
[20:50:08] <JT-Shop> then get good software
[20:50:46] <spida> the guy who owns the machine likes windows and thinks *ix is not for real work...
[20:51:03] <spida> I am looking for arguments (better/faster results)
[20:51:20] <archivist> better is the loop control
[20:51:34] <archivist> this cannot happen in windows
[20:52:20] <archivist> and along with good trajectory control goes speed
[20:52:26] <JT-Shop> tell him he has to get rid of the backlash for "real" work
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[21:11:19] <andypugh> PCW: Can you use a simple loopback from the external power pins to enable on the 8i20, or do I need an extra cable from the controller to the drive? (Seems a shame, if so)
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[21:40:13] <PCW> andypugh: sure the enable is just an OPTO-Isolater input nay kined of DC power from 3-24V and its happy
[21:40:26] <PCW> s/nay/any/
[21:40:48] <PCW> s/brain/better_brain/
[21:41:00] <JT-Shop> LOL
[22:00:31] * Tom_itx uses his decoder ring
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[22:18:27] <Tom_itx> if AXIS_x is angular, what default unit is HOME_OFFSET ?
[22:18:54] <Tom_itx> deg min sec... ?
[22:20:15] <JT-Shop> AFAIK it would be the same as your user units for the rotary
[22:21:38] <JT-Shop> per second
[22:22:05] <JT-Shop> but my wild ass guess may be full of shit too
[22:22:52] * JT-Shop goes to indicate the shieve in for the last time on the lathe... hopes
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[22:57:16] * FinboySlick found out that the one way to center a 3 jaw chuck on his sherline was to mill the teeth :P
[22:57:44] <Tom_itx> :O
[22:59:27] <JT-Shop> that only works for the exact diameter you milled the jaws at
[23:00:31] <Tom_itx> so now he has a fancy collet
[23:07:30] <JT-Shop> yea
[23:08:36] <FinboySlick> Haven't done it yet.
[23:08:58] <Tom_itx> dial it in and pin the back
[23:08:59] <FinboySlick> Why would it only work at a single diameter though?
[23:09:09] <Tom_itx> think about it
[23:09:39] <FinboySlick> Hmmm... Lemme dig out the example video.
[23:09:40] <Tom_itx> if you cut it for a diamteter and you put something smaller in it where is the contact patch?
[23:09:53] <FinboySlick> No no, not milled straight like that.
[23:10:29] <JT-Shop> the scroll will be out by x tolerance new and worn... well
[23:10:58] <FinboySlick> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cASpZUQ80pI
[23:11:09] <FinboySlick> That way.
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[23:13:29] <syyl> strange way of checking the chuck
[23:13:52] <FinboySlick> Yeah, I thought so too.
[23:14:57] <JT-Shop> if not preloaded it will be off, perhaps that is what the strange looking clamps do
[23:15:26] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: good point, and I imagine so too.
[23:16:24] <syyl> i dont bother with the runout of my hard jaws...
[23:16:47] <syyl> if i need almost zero runout i use soft jaws...
[23:17:01] <FinboySlick> Soft jaws?
[23:17:13] <JT-Shop> if I need zero I use my 4 jaw chuck... hmm that is all I ever use
[23:17:42] <JT-Shop> if it is too big for my collets
[23:17:46] <Tom_itx> it's all i got :)
[23:17:56] <JT-Shop> 4 jaw?
[23:18:00] <Tom_itx> yes
[23:18:05] <JT-Shop> it's all you need
[23:18:16] <syyl> soft jaws are machined to the size of the part thats about to be chucked
[23:18:28] <syyl> (of course with preload)
[23:19:00] <PCW> andypugh:around?
[23:19:12] <syyl> so you get great repeatability and accuracy
[23:19:14] <andypugh> For a little longer.
[23:19:43] <andypugh> My Arduino resolver interface is not working any more, which is a problem because I have shipped out a few spare board to folk..
[23:19:50] <syyl> but 4 jaw chuck is also great to have
[23:20:14] <syyl> an with two chuck keys its very fast centered
[23:20:16] <FinboySlick> I have one of those too.
[23:20:25] <Tom_itx> i like his final check of spinning a drillbit and eyeballing it
[23:20:37] <syyl> mk2 eyeball ;)
[23:20:42] <JT-Shop> calibrated eye ball for sure
[23:20:47] <andypugh> When you get the hang of pushing to half-way on the dial with a 4-jaw it gets pretty quick.
[23:20:59] <syyl> i like the compressed air vs. grinding dust ;)
[23:21:03] <PCW> OK tried your 7I49 resolver patch: Good news is angle pin is correct bad news is most other pins seem to have random values
[23:21:07] <andypugh> I have a 3D version to try soon, I am tying to rebuild a bicycle wheel..
[23:21:27] <Tom_itx> those are fun
[23:21:31] <andypugh> PCW how random?
[23:21:35] <PCW> error pin is OK
[23:21:35] <FinboySlick> Heh, I learned more from the comments than from the video.
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[23:21:44] <norias> pfft.
[23:21:55] <syyl> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KMhx4DbyDg
[23:21:59] <Tom_itx> andypugh do you have a wheel stand for the job?
[23:22:05] <PCW> wild numbers but velocity likes 579999
[23:22:23] <FinboySlick> Sort of sucks that little sherline chucks don't have any adjustments though. I tried to shim mine but I couldn't make enough of a difference to center stuff well.
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[23:24:18] <PCW> Velocity error may be easiest to find as its just a scaled register value
[23:24:47] <FinboySlick> syyl: Wow...
[23:25:04] <andypugh> syyl: Hmm, never thought of doing it that way but it's obvious when demonstrated. I might have to ry it.
[23:25:21] <syyl> i was a bit curious about the two keys
[23:25:34] <FinboySlick> I'm buying a 4 jaw tomorrow ;)
[23:25:44] <syyl> but its so easy to push the part around with it
[23:27:58] <andypugh> Thinking about it, that is pretty much what I already do, except I don't move the dial, just aim for mid-way between the extremes.
[23:28:40] <syyl> i think most machinists do it that way by intuition
[23:28:46] <syyl> but the two keys ;)
[23:29:16] <Tom_itx> if i were flipping a part or needed the OD i would do that but generally you're gonna turn the OD down anyway so i don't usually use a dial
[23:29:20] * norias moves around a bit
[23:29:44] <norias> yeah, in my mind it depends on what you're going to do
[23:29:52] <norias> and how bad the stock is to start with
[23:30:08] <syyl> if i can machine the whole part from one side
[23:30:13] <syyl> i dont bother with runout
[23:30:25] <Tom_itx> me either but i try to get it pretty close
[23:30:28] <syyl> just chuck the rusty piece in the 3 yaw and go for it
[23:30:44] <syyl> (if all surfaces are about to be machined)
[23:30:44] <Tom_itx> wonder how he does hex or square bar
[23:30:53] <JT-Shop> pretty much what I do but with only one key
[23:31:12] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop is soooo old scool
[23:31:19] <Tom_itx> schoool
[23:31:20] <JT-Shop> I use collets for hex and square :P
[23:31:20] <norias> Tom: I "Set" the four jaw on a big piece of round stock
[23:31:29] <norias> then turn each jaw the same amount
[23:31:37] <norias> round and round a couple times
[23:31:43] <norias> probably the "wrong" way
[23:31:49] <norias> but it's fast and works
[23:35:28] <JT-Shop> high, low, split, set indicator to 0, set each pair of jaws, done
[23:37:31] <andypugh> PCW does it read zero for non-moving motor?
[23:38:33] <PCW> Yes well close to maybe +-1 RPM (scaled)
[23:38:50] <PCW> (velocity noise)
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[23:46:08] <andypugh> So, it is reading the correct register (probably)
[23:47:53] <PCW> Velocity register*Carrier frequency*60 / 2^32 = RPM
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[23:48:08] <andypugh> That's the equation I thought I was using.
[23:48:22] <Tom_itx> when will 2.5 be pushed to the live cd?
[23:48:36] <PCW> well I guess you dont want the *60
[23:49:34] <PCW> since it should be RPS
[23:50:29] <andypugh> I set the scale to default to RPM, but I guess I could normalise to RPS then they can scale it as they want
[23:51:47] <PCW> I think default for most EMC rate units is 1/Seconds
[23:54:35] <andypugh> But this is just a scaling problem, and you said the numbers were random?
[23:54:51] <PCW> I think there also a minor in-accuracy in the manual, the resolver frequencies are not really 10KHz,5KHz,2.5Khz but rather clocklow/5000 , 10000, 20000
[23:55:07] <andypugh> No, that is in the manual, and is what I am using.
[23:55:30] <andypugh> Of course, I haven't looked at the actual values of clocklow.
[23:56:02] <PCW> No its not a scaling problem some of the numbers are randomly -2 billion, +2 billion
[23:56:31] <andypugh> probably some missing typecasts or something
[23:57:19] <PCW> angle and error are fine...
[23:58:03] <andypugh> angle is raw, the other position pins are upgraded into a 64 bit accumulator, and that might be going wrong.
[23:58:49] <andypugh> Is the position register signed or unsigned?
[23:58:54] <PCW> angle is at least scaled to a 0 --> 1 FP
[23:59:44] <andypugh> I think my code (borrowed from my own resolver thing) only works with signed position (0 at index, negative one side, positive the other)
[23:59:56] <PCW> I guess it depends on how you want to look at it, its just a 32 bit counter