#emc | Logs for 2011-09-11

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[00:30:29] <nicko> ello all
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[00:50:51] <ButterKnife> Hey gang, hoping for a bit of guidance. Considering EMC for a project, but I haven't determined from the docs if it's flexible enough for me. Is there a doc somewhere that talks about writing plugins or other preferred methods of customizing an EMC at the low levels, ie fiddling about with the way steps are generated, building in "pause" signals from the tool controller, that sort of thing?
[00:56:51] <Tom_itx> what do you want to do?
[00:57:00] <Tom_itx> EMC is about as flexible as you could hope for
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[01:02:20] <ButterKnife> well, I'd like to make an electrochemical mill. So it senses current between tool and work, and shouldn't do stepsuntil the current dropsoff after the last step.
[01:03:07] <ButterKnife> also, I may findI need to step thetool in and out to move electrolytearound, independent of planned tool movements. Sortof vibrating itto clear fluid.
[01:03:55] <ButterKnife> I canmake hardware to sense that currentand makea TTLout to the parallel port, butI need EMC to watch that pin before each step at minimum.
[01:04:46] <Tom_itx> been kinda quiet this evening but i'm sure someone can guide you here
[01:04:55] <Tom_itx> stick around a while
[01:05:15] <ButterKnife> hoping so. I like open source, but shortof going through and mapping all the code, usually docs leave a bit to be desired.
[01:06:04] <ButterKnife> I needto decideshouldI use emc,or make a controller in an atmel orsomething and do all the work of a g codeinterpreter
[01:06:25] <ButterKnife> seemslike reinventing the wheel, you know?
[01:06:32] <Tom_itx> there are avr gcode interpreters out there i think
[01:06:45] <Tom_itx> some may be in use as repraps
[01:06:48] <ButterKnife> probably. reprapandsuch do a formof that.
[01:06:57] <Tom_itx> yup
[01:07:04] <ButterKnife> yes. g code subset.
[01:10:38] <tom3p> ButterKnife, I specialize in EDM and know of ECM. EMC tho is 'on time & in position' while Exx is 'in position according to process signal ( aka gap )'
[01:10:56] <tom3p> so it would require massive code changes or circumventing
[01:11:34] <ButterKnife> Well, maybe. Is it hard to make emc check a pin for "ready-for-next-step" before issuing the next planned step command?
[01:11:50] <tom3p> myself, i chose circumventing, and use EMC to pose the tools ( 7 axis ) and then use a HAL component to move the single cutting axis between two numeric limits
[01:12:09] <ButterKnife> That could beinserted at the lowest levels,I would think. (I can do that if needful. was *nix coder back in the day)
[01:13:03] <tom3p> mutliple axis motion (like orbiting in sink edm ) is also possible in hal, but multi-axis motion like WEDM has not been attempted
[01:13:04] <ButterKnife> ok, so hal component to do something a bit like peck drilling... tool motions emcdoesn't knowabout?
[01:13:40] <tom3p> not like peck... like take one unit of motion fwd or do nothing or move back one unit ( so stepper or servo )
[01:13:52] <ButterKnife> yes. micromotions
[01:14:07] <ButterKnife> peck isbig anddoneat the emclevel,I understand that
[01:14:08] <tom3p> and respect the limits .. top limit = failed lower limit = all done
[01:14:39] <tom3p> not peck, it can be continuous as if the re-test time was the seervo update time
[01:15:09] <ButterKnife> yes, understood. So that can be doneat hallevel, lower levelsof the software heirarchy?
[01:15:10] <tom3p> while cuttin air my infeed is smooth
[01:16:57] <skunkworks_> ButterKnife: emc has a pin called motion.adaptive-feed - it would allow you control the feed based on an external signal
[01:17:19] <tom3p> yea at hal level, ECM and EDM aint fast enuf to need much more, and the 'tretreat' speed is ok for me
[01:17:20] <tom3p> retreat
[01:17:20] <tom3p> there has been other work in emc for you to see in this vein... look at wiki for the work doen with 'adaptive feedrate'
[01:17:21] <tom3p> Adaptive Feedrate cannot retract nor maintain a gap, but it can stay slow enuf to cut
[01:17:23] <ButterKnife> oh, cool. Is that checked at the lowest level, like before each step pulse?
[01:17:37] <tom3p> its like reducing your EDM feed just above stall
[01:18:00] <skunkworks_> or stop all togather
[01:18:00] <ButterKnife> yes, there's considerable similarity between emc and edm
[01:18:35] <tom3p> yes its at 'lowest level' (arguable but done at traj planning level )
[01:18:54] <ButterKnife> hm
[01:19:08] <tom3p> ButterKnife, the HAL approach is based on voltage drop ( ECM and EDM sameo sameo )
[01:19:08] <skunkworks_> emc is bigger than just steppers -- it has to work with all kinds of hardware
[01:19:30] <ButterKnife> true. so it will havesomemodularitry just above the driverlevel.
[01:19:34] <tom3p> moving one unit of measure can be stepper or servo
[01:19:44] * Tom_itx gives ButterKnife a new space bar
[01:19:50] <ButterKnife> I need one
[01:20:25] <tom3p> Fanuc gcode manuals had this cool underbar showing a visible space, like a sideways [
[01:20:38] <ButterKnife> actually, I need to cannibalize parts from some of my old northgate keyboards to repair others. finally wore emall out after only 25 years. sheesh, so shoddy.
[01:21:10] <ButterKnife> using a crappy used "modern" kbd atm
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[01:21:59] <Tom_itx> i still use a couple of those
[01:23:14] <tom3p> ButterKnife, random notes i put together over many years of following EMC http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ElectricalDischargeMachining
[01:23:26] <ButterKnife> ok I'll look there, thanks
[01:32:17] <ButterKnife> ok, the 2 safe places thing would do too...
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[01:33:40] <tom3p> i use 3... ClearPlane, RPlane and FullDepth. I turn power on at RPlane, retarct up to ClearPlane and cut to FullDepth - 1Gap
[01:33:58] <tom3p> I move around at CLearPlane, above clamps
[01:34:38] <ButterKnife> where in the sw did you insert your changes, is there a plugin architecture, or did you change existing hal code, or...?
[01:35:46] <tom3p> i get in position using EMC gcode and call an M1xx routine. that switches from feed-speed control to gap control. the 2 are not co-existant
[01:36:32] <tom3p> the main trick is to open up the 'in-position' ( fanuc-y term) of emc, so i can be out of position ( in emc position loop terms) while moving the axis in hal
[01:36:38] <ButterKnife> gap control is already in emc?
[01:37:35] <tom3p> so its very outside of emc, and done in hal
[01:37:54] <tom3p> no , emc has no gap control, but you can sense the gap in hal, and move accordingly, in a 'step-wise' manner ( not speaking og of step motors here, just abour incremental motion )
[01:38:37] <ButterKnife> hm, ok, so what's the implementation of hal, a separately compiled module part of emc distro?
[01:39:04] <tom3p> its not as complex as you might think, just a text file describing the function
[01:39:38] <tom3p> it does get compiled but the emc team made these plugins simple to do
[01:40:05] <ButterKnife> so hal interprets that text file and has enough versatility to write an extra like that in its language?oh, there is a plugin architecture in hal.
[01:40:08] <tom3p> only the plugin gets rebuilt, not the whole emc suite
[01:40:22] <tom3p> not interpretred, easily compiled
[01:40:26] <ButterKnife> ok,
[01:40:41] <ButterKnife> is there a doc discussing that plugin interface?
[01:40:56] <ButterKnife> been looking for that
[01:41:10] <Tom_itx> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_basic_hal.html
[01:41:30] <ButterKnife> hm, I bet I've been there already. I'll look again
[01:42:27] <Tom_itx> oh, i'm not sure about the plugins...
[01:42:54] <tom3p> and yes, plugin architecture ( framework )
[01:42:54] <tom3p> it looks like C
[01:44:50] <tom3p> ButterKnife, an old idea in a plugin (a comp in EMC speak ) http://pastebin.com/XvniSJE2
[01:45:12] <ButterKnife> ok 1 sec
[01:45:46] <tom3p> Comps are plug ins, HAL is more like a PLC , inside the PLC you can wire up comps (like and or nand floor ceil dgv2vel... )
[01:47:23] <tom3p> you need hardware to do the analog input, but once you have the data, the processing in HAL is extremely flexible
[01:48:39] <ButterKnife> comps written in c,compiled, loaded in at startup by command of some sort of config file?
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[01:49:18] <tom3p> yep,
[01:49:31] <tom3p> (skip the comma, just yep ;)
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[01:50:13] <ButterKnife> ok, is there a flowchart or heirarchy chart or something showing the points where these comps can be hooked in?
[01:51:33] <tom3p> you invent those points ( called pins ) and you wire them up in a 'hal' file
[01:51:44] <cradek> this doc page is something like that: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/config_emc2hal.html
[01:51:54] <ButterKnife> ok, that's the conceptual gap for now, then
[01:52:42] <tom3p> JMK's hal manual http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/HAL_User_Manual.pdf
[01:52:42] <ButterKnife> ok, declare pins, tell emc this pin connected to this-or-that physical input otwhatever, then tell it what code to attach?
[01:53:38] <ButterKnife> okay. I've beenoverall those. Soundslikeanother pass through isnowcalledfor.
[01:54:07] <tom3p> example : http://pastebin.com/Xh5EErY7
[01:54:21] <ButterKnife> ok
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[01:55:13] <tom3p> yes theres LOTS more to it, but it the possibility is there ( i aint done yet , and just bought a japax ho-pop from HGR to prove it out )
[01:56:29] <tom3p> good cast frame and 4 axis xyzw with a spindle
[01:57:22] <tom3p> btw: you can make new user interfaces too, python & xml files, again just text :) the EMC gurus are really clever
[01:57:30] <ButterKnife> given ecm uses no force,I plan to cobble up everything from chips and steppers rippedout ofoldprinters :)
[01:58:23] <tom3p> ah! yes ecm has no force but the miniscule gaps REQUIRE rigid machine
[01:58:37] <tom3p> to maintain a 80um gap +/- 4um requires STIFF
[01:58:45] <ButterKnife> yes, it must be rigid, against small forces. That I can afford. :)
[01:59:12] <tom3p> got a scope? you can easily tell if you are shorting ;)
[01:59:45] <ButterKnife> My gap precision will be of necessity no tighter than a step. It means my min "cutting" radius may not be nasa spec,butI'm not making space craft :)
[02:00:08] <ButterKnife> I do haveseveral scopes, could dedicate1 or 2 to the project
[02:01:25] <tom3p> cool, plz keep us updated. I'm in chicago, where u?
[02:01:30] <ButterKnife> stl
[02:01:53] <ButterKnife> if this ever goesanywhere, I'll brag on itat the stl hackerspace
[02:02:50] <tom3p> oh, about the step approach. think this: input the gap , decide above HI or below LO and take 1 of 3 actions. Move in, dont move, move away ;) simple comp for hal
[02:02:50] <tom3p> stereolithography? STL or St.Louis Mo?
[02:02:50] <tom3p> Seattle?
[02:03:05] <ButterKnife> st louis
[02:04:41] <tom3p> I was born E St Louis a looooong time ago
[02:04:41] <tom3p> ok, best o luck, great to talk to you, & bye bye
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[02:04:56] <ButterKnife> I'm thinking the first cut would be rather simple: tool gets positioned somewhere the piece. powers up, when current islow enough, start stepping along the path. Any time current exceeds a threshold, stay put until it drops off, then resume.
[02:05:04] <ButterKnife> oops
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[02:07:53] <skunkworks_> emc can do that right now.
[02:07:58] <skunkworks_> :)
[02:08:14] <ButterKnife> out of the box, pleaseelaborate
[02:09:04] <skunkworks_> you would have some input - from your spark gap current that would control the adaptive feed. as the current goes up - the feed slows down - as the current goes down - the feed goes up.
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[02:10:13] <ButterKnife> does that work with steppers? I really need only 2 speeds: movement allowed and movement paused.
[02:10:26] <skunkworks_> sure - works with anything.
[02:10:34] <ButterKnife> hm
[02:10:55] <skunkworks_> might require a little finesse.. But I know of a few that have used edms with emc that way.
[02:10:56] <ButterKnife> adaptive feed is the magic key word I need to hunt down?
[02:11:13] <skunkworks_> emc manuals are a good start
[02:11:36] <ButterKnife> yes. But they'reslow going until you have a framework of comprehension.
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[02:11:57] <Tom_itx> it snowballs
[02:11:59] <skunkworks_> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/
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[02:12:42] <ButterKnife> right.okay, well hal, pinsandcomps are a start. never saw those defined. adaptive feed is a quarry to hunt down.
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[03:29:52] <Tom_itx> can you run more than one bit file on a mesa board or should you customize one to fit what you need?
[03:30:33] <Tom_itx> ie, i considered using 2 7i47 daughter boards on a 7i43
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[09:01:01] <cncbasher> Tom_itx> customize one bit file is the best approach
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[10:29:13] <landau> h i need a signal on/off to switch on or off my spindle
[10:29:29] <landau> how to set lpt port and hal?
[10:30:44] <jthornton> motion.spindle-on OUT bit TRUE when spindle should rotate
[10:30:51] <jthornton> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
[10:31:14] <jthornton> and http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_basic_hal.html
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[10:34:36] <landau> ok
[10:35:18] <landau> so i will use a MOSFET and a relay
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[14:03:18] <Jymmm> Have you guys seen these fiberglass see-thru LPG tanks? http://www.frontgate.com/clear-view-composite-lpg-tank/156967
[14:04:42] <Tom_itx> hardly worth the cost
[14:05:52] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWOMNP8Lrkc&feature=related
[14:06:21] <JT-Shop> good luck getting that filled any more with everyone going to exchange tanks so they don't have to get a license to sell bulk
[14:06:33] <Jymmm> No corrosion, lightweight, and stackable.
[14:06:49] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: license?
[14:07:05] <Jymmm> ah
[14:07:10] <Jymmm> you mean retailers.
[14:07:16] <JT-Shop> yea, you have to go to school once a year and pass a test to sell bulk
[14:07:45] <JT-Shop> here the school is held once a year you miss you don't sell
[14:07:51] <Jymmm> There are enough refill/welding supply houses around here.
[14:08:44] <Tom_itx> that's a bold statement that 'our propane tanks will not explode'
[14:09:16] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uonsw7G0xVI&feature=related
[14:11:12] <Jymmm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWs7ybltHmo&feature=player_embedded
[14:11:31] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I guess they'll leak before exploding.
[14:11:31] <Tom_itx> that's kinda like saying the titanic won't sink
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[14:20:01] <Jymmm> Heh, they have to be recertified every 5 years, as opposed to every 10 years for regular tanks.
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[14:25:21] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Bee leary of "Blue Rhino" exchange tanks. Some/most of them come with a special refill valve that can ONLY be refilled by Blue Rhino with the use of a magnetic key. In the side of the valve, there will be a triangular inset.
[14:27:09] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/34426/38369.jpg
[14:27:33] <JT-Shop> yea, around here they only take back for exchange the same brand tank
[14:28:11] <Jymmm> ah
[14:28:24] <JT-Shop> the only tanks I get filled are my 100lb and 500 gallon tanks
[14:28:59] <Tom_itx> they likely come to you for both of those
[14:32:27] <ktchk> any heekscad user arround? the extrusion taper for circle not working any work arround?
[14:33:52] <JT-Shop> try #heekscad
[14:34:04] <JT-Shop> oh you are there
[14:34:45] <ktchk> yes
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[14:45:16] <Jymmm> In a SW assembly, Is it possible to "link" or change one dimension (height in this case) of multiple parts at the same time, or do I need to change each one individually?
[14:53:45] <archivist> yes you can link
[14:54:15] <archivist> add mates to to do that
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[14:54:36] <Jymmm> TY
[14:55:11] <archivist> and make sure parts dont have their own height just the item that controls
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[14:57:22] <Jymmm> ah, ok
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[15:20:33] <JT-Shop> getting started http://imagebin.org/172034
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[15:23:01] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Be sure to use casters from an old office chair =)
[15:30:11] <JT-Shop> I'll take a picture of the casters in a bit :P
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[15:57:09] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: the CASTERS have 3000lbs capacity http://imagebin.org/172042
[15:58:13] <syyl> looks, like they are cast ;)
[15:58:21] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: DAMN! Your welding table top *IS* one inch plate. That musta been a bitch to move!
[15:58:27] <JT-Shop> cast steel
[15:58:46] <JT-Shop> I use 13.000lb rollers to move it
[15:59:00] <syyl> cant get a palett jack under it?
[15:59:05] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Only 3000 lbs?
[15:59:07] <syyl> it makes moving things so easy ;)
[15:59:07] <Tom_itx> is the top welded to the base or bolted?
[15:59:08] <JT-Shop> don't have one
[15:59:17] <Tom_itx> mine is bolted on
[15:59:32] <JT-Shop> welded to 4" sq x 1/2 wall pipe
[15:59:35] <syyl> but thats how a welding table should look
[15:59:49] <syyl> not a flimsy piece of sheetmetal on a normal table ;)
[16:00:13] <Tom_itx> you could hide under it in a tornado
[16:00:24] <JT-Shop> sadly it was a machine that one of the factories only used for a few months and scrapped out so they gave it to me
[16:00:27] <Jymmm> syyl: Ther'es nothing wrong using IKEA furniture for a welding table =)
[16:00:36] <syyl> uuuhm ;)
[16:00:57] <JT-Shop> yea a tornado would not move that one
[16:01:14] <Jymmm> syyl: It's strong and recycable after 3.345 seconds of usage
[16:01:35] <syyl> and you can burn it in your stove?
[16:01:48] <Jymmm> syyl: How do you think it's recycled =)
[16:01:58] <syyl> hehe
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[17:06:51] <gene76> silly Q guys: I have a line in my .hal file, at the bottom "net xenable => parport.0.pin-17-out" which is miss-leading as it is actually being fed to the "cp-ok" input on my PMDX-106 to enable the remote control of my spindle motor.
[17:08:21] <JT-Shop> is there another line with net xenable on it?
[17:08:29] <SWPadnos> gene76, the motion controller has separate enable outputs for each axis, but since they all turn on and off at the same time, you can use any one to enable your motors.
[17:09:02] <gene76> How can I tie that, after renaming it to be a copy of "net spindle-enable <= motion.spindle-on => pwmgen.0.enable"?
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[17:49:01] <gene76> humm, got parport.0.pin-17 hooked to cp-ok, but still no response, is that xenable a logic 1 when its ready to run?
[17:50:59] <gene76> I should add that the manual controls on the PMDX-106 work normally.
[17:54:29] <gene76> JTR-Shop, yes, below that line in the stepgen.0 stanza
[17:56:41] <gene76> I am going to drag the scope back in and verify the signal is changing. All this did work before my 4 axis xylotex made smoke, and I have now built a new driver box for the PSU and 4 MM-542's plus a cnc4pc interface card..
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[18:09:31] <JT-Shop> gene76: can you pastebin your hal file so we can follow along?
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[18:12:21] <JT-Shop> at least I know I can pick up the leg now... http://imagebin.org/172055
[18:17:00] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Lil tight on top clearance.
[18:17:16] <JT-Shop> camera angle
[18:17:20] <Jymmm> ah
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[18:21:46] <gene76> my cp-ok pulse looks like its working into a short circuit. pulling the drive box back out now.
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[20:31:21] <Jymmm> fuck me... MY digital odometer has been blanking out for like 5m then comes back, seems it's a cold solder joint. Hopefully pulling the cluster wn't be too much of a pita.
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[20:39:08] <Tom_itx> well i survived that
[20:39:44] <Tom_itx> kid's 1st time behind the wheel
[20:52:50] <skunkworks_> heh
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[22:21:12] <FinboySlick> Is the current emc livecd fit to just dd onto a usb stick, or does it require the usual tricks?
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