#emc | Logs for 2011-09-01

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[00:01:22] <cradek> skunkworks_: during canned cycles the TP is put in exact stop mode, so retracts/pecks are guaranteed to be full depth. This will give you twice the accel you usually have because in blending mode accel is usually lower than the max accel value.
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[00:01:55] <cradek> my guess is just that you're right on the edge of your accel capability and you ought to test/tune it in G61 mode.
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[00:05:02] <Danimal_garage|2> cradek always has the answer
[00:05:36] <Danimal_garage|2> and it's usually right :)
[00:05:42] <cradek> haha
[00:05:52] <cradek> bbl
[00:06:47] <PCW> andypugh no, 7I64 still doesn't start sometimes
[00:07:31] <andypugh> I am tempted to swap your way of calculating DB25 pins for a lookup table.
[00:07:33] <andypugh> const u8 DB25[] = {1,14,2,15,3,16,4,17,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13};
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[00:09:09] <andypugh> PCW: 5kHz servo thread?
[00:10:03] <PCW> Yes thats better, and would make the pin order visible in the source
[00:10:13] <PCW> No just 1 KHz
[00:10:21] <andypugh> Weird.
[00:10:44] <andypugh> I am baffled. The code isn't spotting anything wrong, that's the bizarre thing.
[00:11:08] <andypugh> If you halscope the fault-counts, is anything showing?
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[00:12:25] <PCW> I can (with the same bitfile) start/stop/doit with nary an error
[00:12:27] <PCW> I still suspect a race condition.violation of command write when busy error of some sort
[00:12:54] <frysteev> servo question, does anone with servos also have tachometers?
[00:14:01] <andypugh> frysteev: Some folk do, but generally only connected to the servo drive, not to EMC2.
[00:14:25] <andypugh> Though there is no reason why you couldn't run a velocity loop controlled by a tacho in EMC2
[00:14:50] <PCW> I have a test fixture doing a start/doit 13 times/stop/setupstart/stop loop
[00:14:51] <PCW> It always waits for command register clear
[00:14:53] <PCW> its now done 6 million loops without an error
[00:15:03] <frysteev> hhmm
[00:15:16] <andypugh> (off the wall thought, does anyone use/make logarithmic A/D converters for better dynamic range?)
[00:15:33] <frysteev> andypugh: thanks,
[00:15:43] <frysteev> trying to figure out if i should interface them, and how
[00:15:59] <andypugh> frysteev: You have encoders too?
[00:16:12] <frysteev> resolvers,
[00:16:20] <PCW> AD used to make such a thing (and HP had an old analog logarithmic voltmeter)
[00:16:28] <andypugh> TBH EMC2 can get equally good velocity data from encoders or resolvers.
[00:16:42] <frysteev> they are analog tachometers too
[00:16:50] <frysteev> so basically just little dc motors
[00:17:18] <andypugh> frysteev: Aye, that's the problem, there isn't much in the way of EMC2-compatible AtoD cards.
[00:17:52] <andypugh> How are you connecting the resolvers to EMC2?
[00:17:57] <PCW> another data point on the 7I64: if the failed channels ares stopped/started this always seems to work
[00:17:58] <frysteev> so if i ommited them, would you forsee much of a problem?
[00:18:03] <frysteev> resolvers to emc, yes
[00:18:20] <PCW> Dont your drives need the tacho feedback?
[00:19:09] <frysteev> current drives do, but we might be reaplcing them,
[00:19:57] <PCW> Well depending on the drive it may be advantageous to retain them
[00:20:33] <andypugh> PCW: Which FPGA card? If it is 5i23 I could check here with your firmware, but so far my 7i64 is 100% reliable as long as I don't bit-shift the source bit by the physical pin number instead of the logical pin number...
[00:20:35] <frysteev> im not sure if i will be able to use the current drives with emc,
[00:20:50] <PCW> 5I23
[00:21:15] <PCW> 100 % reliable with our test fixture 80% reliable in EMC
[00:21:17] <andypugh> Send it across then, I will check it out. (maybe tomorrow now, though)
[00:21:39] <andypugh> So far I have never seen a failure with svss8_8.bit
[00:22:21] <PCW> THis is the same bitfile that shmidtt motor works has SVSS6_8
[00:22:26] <andypugh> frysteev: What's the drive control interface? EMC2 can handle a lot of them.
[00:22:49] <andypugh> exit
[00:23:00] <frysteev> its propitery digital bus we are trying to reverse engineer atm, asea/abb robot
[00:23:08] <PCW> Andy have you start/stopped the interface many times?
[00:23:19] <andypugh> Ah, that is a little more challenging than normal.
[00:23:24] <frysteev> ya,
[00:23:31] <PCW> load emc/exit emc repeat
[00:23:53] <andypugh> PCW: Yeah, dozens of times. Not hundreds, the machine is upstairs...
[00:23:55] <frysteev> the resolver boards, talk on the digital bus, and then control the servo boards which then talk to the servo amp boards..
[00:25:13] <PCW> freeby.mesanet.com/5i23svss6_8.zip is what i'm testing with
[00:28:30] <andypugh> test1: OK
[00:30:43] <andypugh> I need an assistant to type halrun / source test.hal / then walk halfway up the stairs, look for yellow LEDs, walk back down, type exit, and repeat
[00:33:00] <Valen> webcam ftw
[00:33:03] <PCW> Um halrun may be fine, this may only happen with launch emc/ exit emc repeat
[00:33:20] <andypugh> Ah
[00:33:46] <andypugh> Just done 8 halrun tests, all good.
[00:34:21] <PCW> Long cat 5 cable?
[00:34:47] <PCW> (save the walking 100 FT should be fine)
[00:34:51] <andypugh> I could just plug the EMC2 machin ein down here, it's all WiFi
[00:35:38] <PCW> could you post your test.hal so I can try here?
[00:35:54] <andypugh> With a loopback wire output to input I could check within a script, even.
[00:36:35] <andypugh> http://pastebin.com/VX8CVfTK
[00:36:42] <PCW> Needs power since outputs are only switches
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[00:49:40] <skunkworks_> cradek: you are right
[00:49:57] <skunkworks_> g61 moves f-errror
[00:50:34] <skunkworks_> i probably never machined in g61 - smarty pants!
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[00:55:36] <PCW> andypugh (if you have not drifted off to sleep) ok halrunning test file is reliable, its EMC starting that makes it unreliable
[00:56:44] <skunkworks_> lowered the acceleration - so far so good
[01:00:31] <andypugh> PCW: I don't have a working EMC2 config at the moment...
[01:01:05] <andypugh> (And this exposes a flaw in my testing regime, as I only tested in Halcmd
[01:01:22] <frysteev> im trying to figure out what an octal bus traceiver is :P
[01:01:48] <andypugh> It's a transceiver with 8 lines.
[01:03:51] <PCW> This is just the 5 axis skeleton config for Schmidtt
[01:04:04] <frysteev> trying to rever engineer my boards wooo
[01:04:34] <PCW> i used it to verify the 7I48 encoders/analog outs/sserial-7i64
[01:05:36] <andypugh> Do you want to send me the config files? They should "just Work" with my hardware, I think?
[01:06:05] <andypugh> (well, except I only have one 7i64. Just how much IO can one machine need?)
[01:08:26] <skunkworks_> more than 96 for me...
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[01:08:59] <Danimal_garage|2> yea, i'm up there too....
[01:09:14] <skunkworks_> bbl
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[01:09:33] <Danimal_garage|2> i'm at about 50, and not even close to what i SHOULD have
[01:10:06] <Danimal_garage|2> no limit switches, and i use the keyboard for most stuff
[01:10:34] <andypugh> I think I have most of one connector free on my 7i43
[01:10:40] <Danimal_garage|2> i probably need about 70-80
[01:10:51] <Danimal_garage|2> automatic toolchanger uses up a lot
[01:11:25] <Danimal_garage|2> coolant, vefd, some buttons, home switches, mpg pendant, etc
[01:11:27] <andypugh> My machine has 3 limit/homes, 1 PWM, 2x encoders and 3x steppers. It almost fitted into a parport.
[01:11:37] <Danimal_garage|2> e-stop
[01:12:08] <andypugh> e-stop is pure hardware
[01:12:11] <Danimal_garage|2> i have a 7i48 and a 7i37 full on the mill
[01:12:28] <Danimal_garage|2> my e-stop goes into emc
[01:13:22] <Danimal_garage|2> toolchanger uses most of the 7i37
[01:13:31] <Danimal_garage|2> all the outputs
[01:13:42] <Danimal_garage|2> and then some
[01:14:57] <Danimal_garage|2> actually i think i have a bunch of unused inputs on there, so i might need only 50 or so gpio pins
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[01:34:20] <PCW> andy, sent
[01:42:07] <andypugh> Got it. Will test tomorrow
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[01:54:29] <skunkworks_> logger[psha]:
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[03:05:39] <skunkworks> cradek: so - in g64 mode - G0 also 'blends'?
[03:05:53] <cradek> yes
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[03:06:14] <skunkworks> well - that explains it. Cannot believe I didn't run into that before.
[03:06:14] <cradek> the only difference between G0 and G1 is the feed rate
[03:06:33] <cradek> maybe your tuning has slipped a bit so it became a problem
[03:06:41] <skunkworks> could be.
[03:07:10] <skunkworks> I lowed it from 20 to 15 for now. Seems to have fixed it - though I need to re-visit tuning
[03:07:42] <skunkworks> *lowered
[03:08:52] <skunkworks> sure is a crappy feeling when you hear the machine power down.
[03:08:58] <skunkworks> :)
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[03:09:22] <skunkworks> but it was a the retract - shuttle to the next position. No harm done.
[03:09:38] <skunkworks> wow - I am not making much sense
[03:10:59] <cradek> skunkworks: go to bed, seems like you need it
[03:11:09] <skunkworks> I am at work... Server issue.
[03:11:14] <skunkworks> Yay
[03:11:18] <cradek> ugh
[03:11:31] <cradek> load the right tape, start the restore, nap?
[03:11:36] <skunkworks> I did make it home for about 10 minutes
[03:11:41] <cradek> or not that bad of an issue
[03:11:54] <cradek> sometimes the bad ones are the easiest
[03:12:15] <cradek> if the server caught fire and burned to the ground you know just what to do :-)
[03:12:37] <skunkworks> Server just went wonkey - (old 2000 server) reboot seems to have fixed most problems except for one share didn't come back
[03:13:14] <skunkworks> heh
[03:13:47] <skunkworks> I would finally get off my ass and get the linux servers with 10 times the storage space in service
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[03:17:20] <skunkworks> I thought we had another issue with the Y axis... but after the 2nd day of it f-erroring during the canned cycles - I thought there may be an explanation. (it makes me feel better)
[03:17:30] <skunkworks> Thanks again
[03:17:43] <skunkworks> (and only the canned cycles)
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[03:35:20] <frysteev> moo
[04:19:03] <A2Sheds> is a cow loose in here again?
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[05:07:05] <Jymmm> This is good.... http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs13/f/2007/077/2/e/Animator_vs__Animation_by_alanbecker.swf
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[05:46:21] <IG-garage> How often does one change the cutters (or use other edges of cutters) of shell mill? Is it OK to do it each 4th or 5th hour of work?
[05:46:47] <awallin> depends on cutter and material
[05:47:16] <awallin> carbide insert cutters cutting aluminium last for 2 years in production I am told. production = 2-3 8h shifts per day...
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[06:00:23] <IG-garage> carbide insert cutters... We have some cheap 'fast-cutting steel' for cutters. it's high in graphite content, and contains some metals for certain needs.
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[06:08:42] <awallin> high speed steel will wear out much faster. if you use lots of coolant and careful cuts in aluminium the hss cutter might last a long time. if you use it to make a steel mould it might last one job.
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[06:51:23] <Jymmm> Can anyone suggest a 12VDC water circulation pump that can do at least 20 PSI, and not too much wattage?
[06:53:01] <Valen> wattage would depend on volume
[06:53:08] <Valen> but 20PSI is rather alot
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[06:53:35] <Jymmm> MAX 10 GPM, more like 3 GPM
[06:55:05] <Jymmm> I need 20-80 PSI
[06:55:15] <Valen> 80PSI is really alot
[06:55:27] <Valen> you would need a pretty high power pump to hit that
[06:55:42] <Valen> i mean your not going to find it in the garden section of your hardware store ;->
[06:55:52] <Jymmm> Ok, 20+ PSI, alright?
[06:56:30] <Jymmm> I found one, that does 50PSI , but it's 100 Watts
[06:57:15] <Jymmm> 4 GPM @ 50 PSI
[06:57:25] <Valen> thats not much
[06:57:31] <Valen> sounds like a pretty efficent pump to me
[06:57:31] <Jymmm> I dont need much
[06:57:41] <Jymmm> it's 100 Watts
[06:57:44] <Valen> i mean 100W doesn't sound like much
[06:57:58] <Jymmm> It is if running on a battery
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[06:59:35] <archivist> pressure and volume = power, there is no free lunch
[07:00:06] <Jymmm> I dont need THAT much pressure, only 20PSI, 3GPM is fine
[07:02:02] <IG-garage> just attach bicycle to it and say to neighbours it's a brand new 'fat-keeller' which is left in the garden 'for a while'
[07:02:38] <IG-garage> they will start to pedal it, you'll see!
[07:08:49] <Jymmm> circulation (no pressure), but crazy stupid price http://www.discountpv.com/solar_water_heating/sid10b12.htm
[07:10:48] <Jymmm> Just too much wattage.... http://www.harborfreight.com/12-volt-marine-utility-water-pump-94639.html
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[07:13:11] <Loetmichel> mornin'
[07:15:34] <psha[work]> Jymmm: buy some migrants and a metal chain - you'll save a lot compared to electric pump
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[07:19:45] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: ouch... 200$ for a PC-fan-motor with magnets instead of blades and a impeller coupled to it...
[07:20:12] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Like I said, stupid expensive.
[07:21:33] <Loetmichel> as for solar pumping: to heat my pool i used a $10 fountain pump ans sole 100m black hard plastic tube on the Garage roof ;-)
[07:21:44] <Loetmichel> and some
[07:22:05] <Jymmm> I need the pressure for the L5 (scroll to bottom of page) http://www.eccotemp.com/gas_water_heater_continued.html
[07:22:44] <Loetmichel> ... or like this year: a woodcoal grill and some copper pipe ;-)
[07:23:51] <Loetmichel> hmm, looks like convenient for the garden shower.
[07:24:19] <Jymmm> I need it for a closed system
[07:24:28] <Loetmichel> jet me guess: it hasa flood-switch for the gas which works only at a minimum Pressure?
[07:24:31] <Loetmichel> lat
[07:24:41] <Loetmichel> grr
[07:24:43] <Loetmichel> let
[07:25:39] <Jymmm> I think if the flow is too low, or not enough pressure you could overheat the tankless heater
[07:26:32] <Loetmichel> in germany this kind of heater is called "durchlauferhitzer", meaning flow-trough-heater...
[07:26:47] <Loetmichel> am i right that this operates with a flowswitch?
[07:27:08] <Jymmm> I think so, as it turns on with flow
[07:27:20] <Loetmichel> so the propane is turned on and ignited as soon as the flowswitch detects movement?
[07:28:10] <Loetmichel> the problem then will be: the flowswitch ist made by a membrane and a narrow part of tube, to get differential pressure
[07:28:25] <Loetmichel> but this only works if there is some pressure to start with
[07:28:32] <Loetmichel> usually about 1 bar
[07:28:47] <Loetmichel> "Needs 20-80 PSI of water pressure"
[07:28:47] <Jymmm> I dont know, the manual doesn't say. I'll have to call them this week.
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[07:29:25] <Loetmichel> ah, 1.3 bar minimum.... (20 psi)
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[07:30:07] <Jymmm> If it's not a safety issue, maybe I can replace the flow switch with a lower one and just use a circulation pump instead.
[07:31:09] <Loetmichel> depending on your situation: have you considered to pressurize the watertank with air and completely cancel the pump?
[07:31:30] <Loetmichel> could be much less power consuming
[07:32:24] <Loetmichel> ( little 12V car compressor running about 10 minutes to have enough pressure to get over a 100liters water tank
[07:34:22] <RyanS> hmm #8 or #10 screws for laminated benchtop?...
[07:34:48] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46U6Owh9pok
[07:34:55] <Jymmm> RyanS: drywall screws =)
[07:35:52] <RyanS> chipboard...
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[07:37:52] <Jymmm> RyanS: Masonite
[07:38:08] <Jymmm> aka hardboard
[07:38:15] <Jymmm> but pre-drill the holes
[07:40:54] <Valen> Loetmichel: thats going to use alot of energy (more than running a pump) and then you have a pressure vessel full of hot water to worry about
[07:40:58] <RyanS> yeah, but go for #8 or #10 (silly American screw sizes)?
[07:41:19] <Jymmm> RyanS: drywall screws
[07:41:41] <Jymmm> sold by the pound
[07:41:55] <Valen> it probably needs that pressure to push water through all the tiny holes in its heatsink
[07:42:37] <RyanS> .... They come in a number of different sizes :)
[07:42:39] <Jymmm> Valen: I figure as much, I'll have to call them. Since it's a closed system, I may not need all that
[07:42:52] <Jymmm> RyanS: short, long, and longer.
[07:42:56] <Valen> they probably don't want their heatsink melting lol
[07:43:24] <Jymmm> Valen: I want to run that thru a heatercore.
[07:43:56] <RyanS> #6, #7, #8, #10, #995... well perhaps not #995
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[07:44:16] <Jymmm> RyanS: #2.558761335
[07:44:45] <RyanS> a little small I don't think it would hold very well :P
[07:45:01] <Jymmm> RyanS: use 85,439 of them
[07:46:05] <Jymmm> MUTE your speakers... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPDUtocZzS0&feature=related
[07:47:47] <RyanS> I'll just use perforated metal as my desk frame & put a screw through every single hole
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[07:50:09] <RyanS> These should work http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_worlds_largest_bolt
[07:53:28] <RyanS> ... Could one assume that they also needed to create the world's largest spanner
[07:55:40] <Jymmm> Valen: http://free-water-lawn-garden.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=65&products_id=180&zenid=7492bead93a2ca3b25422fe569aaf549
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[10:30:30] <elmo40> Jymmm: he has a website: http://wolfhart-industries.com/
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[13:14:21] <aphex> hi all!
[13:14:45] <aphex> ive got a question..
[13:15:30] <aphex> it succeeded to set up and control the motors using halrun, everything is fine..
[13:16:26] <aphex> now i have to do the same thing, but not from the interactive halcmd interface, but from c/c++ code
[13:16:53] <aphex> any hints are welcome :]
[13:17:58] <awallin_> use the source luke?
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[13:19:49] <Valen> there is some way you can talk to EMC via code
[13:20:03] <Valen> you can feed stuff to the motion planner or some such as irecall
[13:20:13] <archivist> the messaging interface that is already there
[13:20:32] <Valen> thats the one
[13:20:44] <Valen> anyway past my bed time
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[13:21:29] <aphex> this is an alternative usage of the emc, because we have to drive 2 wheels of a mobile robot with 2 motors
[13:21:52] <aphex> so the g-codes cant help here
[13:22:41] <Loetmichel> why not?
[13:22:41] <aphex> so we have to drive the motors on given speed
[13:23:03] <Loetmichel> get emc into manual mode and feed the gcodes to the input window ;-)
[13:23:13] <aphex> :-)
[13:23:19] <archivist> see the nml interface
[13:23:46] <aphex> so this application wont have any graphical interface
[13:24:57] <aphex> we have tried the "emcrsh"
[13:25:30] <aphex> but also didnt helped us out, because you can not drive 2 motors in one command
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[13:25:44] <Loetmichel> (taht was a joke of course, You dont look like some "cheap and dirty" hacker ;-)
[13:26:13] <aphex> "set jog 0 30" "set jog 1 30" ---> the firs motor start 1/4 s earlier than the other....
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[13:26:35] <aphex> that's why we had to bypass the tcp/ip protocol
[13:26:52] <aphex> not from halcmd works everything fine
[13:27:07] <aphex> so the motors starting at the same time
[13:27:34] <aphex> but i dont know how to send the hal commands from the code....
[13:28:02] <aphex> not -> now
[13:44:36] <aphex> archivist : could you please send some detailed info for the nml interface?
[14:01:22] <frysteev> im assuming nml does not mean nude monkeylanguage...
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[14:05:13] <awallin_> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.4/html/man/man9/motion.9.html "This manual page is horribly incomplete"
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[14:14:19] <aphex> @frysteev: ?
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[14:24:28] <frysteev> yes?
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[15:02:06] <aphex> i would prefer sending direct commands to the hal, without the use of the motion
[15:02:30] <aphex> like.. "halcmd: setp stepgen.0.velocity-cmd 2"
[15:02:54] <awallin_> aphex: right, then you might not need NML, just the HAL API?
[15:03:01] <aphex> yes!
[15:03:35] <cradek> how realtime do you need your control to be? earlier you said 1/4 second was important. I question your approach of using unqueued userland control in this case, and wonder if you've thought about it.
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[15:07:15] <aphex> if we start the wheels not in the same time, the robot wont go straight ahead, so the hal now has a slow and a fast thread -> i should change both the stepgen values in one slow circle, so that when the stepgen.update-freq will be called in the slow thread, both of the values will be updated
[15:09:20] <aphex> i dont know if it was clear :)
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[15:23:51] <JT-Work> is there a M7x1 pipe thread?
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[15:26:28] <aphex> no one has an idea how to send messages to a running hal from c-code?
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[15:27:24] <JT-Work> I'm sure someone does...
[15:28:22] <aphex> JT-work: me too :)
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[15:29:27] <JT-Work> you might have to broadcast that question also on the mailing list and perhaps on the forum
[15:30:41] <cradek> halcmd manipulates the running hal, and it's written in C
[15:30:50] <cradek> I kind of doubt that's the approach you want to take, though
[15:31:20] <cradek> it feels like you might be asking the wrong question, but I am having trouble guessing the right question
[15:32:10] <cradek> I know you have a robot with two motors, but I don't know the big picture of what you are trying to do with it or how it should move or interact with the world
[15:32:29] <cradek> so I don't know if you want to run the motors in velocity or position mode, for instance
[15:36:29] <frysteev> cradek: whats the difference ebtween those 2 modes?
[15:36:55] <cradek> velocity mode controls the velocity of the motors, position mode controls the position of the motors
[15:39:07] <frysteev> but is postion mode more acurate but slower for example?
[15:39:21] <cradek> I don't know what you mean by slower
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[15:39:45] <cradek> if you want to move the motor to a certain position, you use position mode
[15:40:16] <cradek> I'm struggling to explain it any other way
[15:40:32] <cradek> say you want to turn the motor exactly one rotation
[15:40:42] <frysteev> i guess im asking, if i have a machine that i want to be acutrate, when would i use velocity mode?
[15:40:43] <cradek> in position mode you'd set the new target, and the motor would turn one rotation
[15:41:45] <cradek> in velocity mode, you are going to have trouble accomplishing this, because the best you could do is set a velocity (say one turn per second) and try to come back exactly a second later and stop the motor.
[15:42:37] <cradek> however if you want the motor to turn at a certain speed forever, and you don't ever care about the position, you'd use velocity mode
[15:42:56] <frysteev> im thinking of my machine, i have tachs to measure velocity, but say if i omitted those in a new design and only ran in postiion mode, would it be much of an issue?
[15:43:35] <cradek> I don't have anywhere near enough information to answer that because I still don't know the fundamental problem you are trying to solve
[15:44:07] <frysteev> i guess,m what is the advantage of velocity mode?
[15:44:32] <cradek> the motor turns at a certain velocity until you tell it otherwise
[15:44:47] <frysteev> hmmm ok.
[15:45:08] <frysteev> i could see that as useful if i wanted my robot to dance to the music maybe
[15:45:40] <cradek> if your robot is like a car where you want to go a certain speed, use velocity
[15:46:03] <cradek> if your robot plays chess and needs to move the queen 8 squares to the other end of the board, use position mode
[15:46:34] <cradek> "it's a robot" doesn't tell me what is required to be "accurate"
[15:47:15] <cradek> brb
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[15:54:30] <aphex> i want to run them in velocity mode
[15:55:24] <aphex> so all i need, is to velocity control them directly with hal commands, from c code
[15:59:16] <cradek> the only place "hal commands" exist are as an input (on the command line, or read from a file) of/by the program halcmd
[16:00:16] <cradek> so if that is really what you want, your options are to use your C program to exec halcmd with the command in argv, or write a file for it to read
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[16:10:07] <Loetmichel> re @ home
[16:14:45] <aphex> cradek: thanks, im going to check how much time does it take to send them from command line
[16:15:09] <aphex> im afraid it will be a bit slow, every time to call the halcmd ...
[16:15:24] <aphex> when we have to send a command to the hall
[16:15:26] <aphex> -l
[16:15:40] <cradek> if that speed is a problem, then the whole approach is wrong
[16:16:23] <aphex> the speed is critical, we have to send at least 2-3 messages within one period of the "slow" thread
[16:16:51] <cradek> then sending them as hal commands in userspace is very certainly the wrong approach
[16:17:15] <aphex> so what do you advice?
[16:18:02] <awallin_> write your own real-time hal comp which takes input from userspace in whatever format you want?
[16:20:04] <aphex> that sounds good, but how can i implement?
[16:21:00] <awallin_> components are quite easy to write with "comp". Not sure how you would communicate with userspace, NML is probably overkill if you only want a simple interface
[16:24:30] <aphex> yes so simple, that i can velocity control of 2 motors
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[16:26:53] <awallin_> the interface between non-real-time and real-time is probably the tricky part. the real-time component runs e.g. every 1ms, so it doesn't have time to wait or block for anything...
[16:28:12] <aphex> sure
[16:28:42] <awallin_> they might also run as separate threads (?)
[16:29:10] <aphex> the slow and the fast one?
[16:29:57] <awallin_> yes...
[16:30:42] <aphex> so you mean the threads inside the hal?
[16:31:07] <awallin_> no... I don't think.
[16:31:55] <awallin_> really I don't know these things too well :) but I think the user-space stuff runs in a different thread and hal things somewhere else
[16:31:57] <psha> awallin_: for simple interface you may use shared buffer
[16:32:10] <aphex> the slow thread inside hal has only one function to call every period: stepgen.update-freq
[16:32:13] <psha> hal has RT components and userspace ones
[16:32:18] <awallin_> psha: and how do you share this buffer between real-time comp and non-real-time
[16:32:24] <psha> userspace comps are running in separate processes
[16:32:30] <aphex> the fast one, stepgen.update-freq, stepgen.update-freq .......
[16:32:34] <psha> RT comps are bound to kernel 'threads'
[16:32:40] <Loetmichel> [18:20:23] <d3vl1n> http://shirt.nerdalert.de/post/8817527615/hackerspace-catering <- MUHAHAHAHA.... *Order*... ;-)
[16:33:11] <psha> awallin_: via HAL for example or using other methods
[16:33:24] <psha> awallin_: like it's done in hal sampler, hal scope and some other things
[16:34:30] <aphex> psha: how can you monitor and modify the shared buffer? are they semaphores?
[16:36:50] <psha> it's not sysv shmem
[16:37:05] <psha> but just plain memory region
[16:37:13] <psha> thus no semaphores as i understand
[16:38:04] <aphex> ok im getting a bit confused :)
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[16:39:13] <aphex> so how would you do that? to control the velocity from a c-program?
[16:39:30] <awallin_> how would you guarantee that the two comps do not write/read from the same memory location?
[16:39:48] <aphex> what about the halui?
[16:40:25] <psha> awallin_: what's problem
[16:40:26] <psha> ?
[16:40:40] <psha> there are lot of methods how to ensure that data is consistent without locking
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[16:54:33] <aphex> .
[16:54:44] <aphex> oh sorry.. i have found a function
[16:54:58] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, yes on M7x1.. catching up on the reading here
[16:55:09] <aphex> The 'hal_param_xxx_set()' functions modify the value of a parameter.
[16:55:10] <Tom_itx> err i dunno about pipe
[16:55:10] <frysteev> aphex: congrats on finding your fucntion in life
[16:55:34] <aphex> very funny :)))
[16:56:44] <aphex> so do you think this function can be called on a running hal?
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[17:02:27] <Tom_itx> http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metric-threads-d_777.html
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[17:29:13] <cpresser> hehe, we got plenty of metric stuff in the EU. I will buy a lot of imperial screws and tools while i am in the US and add them to my european workshop :)
[17:34:05] <skunkworks> don't get them too close - matter/antimater...
[17:36:43] <archivist> even the british BA is metric and always has been
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[17:40:51] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: I can't find a M7x1 plug however I have found the tap for a M7x1 bolt
[17:41:50] <syyl> you got a tap for a m7x1?
[17:41:56] <syyl> thats not that common :D
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[17:48:27] <psha> aphex: yes, and any other function
[17:48:32] <psha> however it's better to use hal pins to transfer values between components
[17:51:01] <aphex> now we planing to generate the steps and send them to the parallel port directly, without using emc :(
[17:51:01] <JT-Shop> syyl: I can get one but that is not the problem... some valves have M7x1 straight threaded ports and we are looking for plugs for unused ports so it must be o-ring seal plugs like the air line fittings
[17:51:01] <JT-Shop> aphex: I tried to use EMC to control my smoker but gave up and used a PLC instead
[17:51:29] <syyl> uhm
[17:51:29] <syyl> festo has m7x1 plugs
[17:51:29] <syyl> iirc
[17:51:29] <psha> JT-Shop: what was wrong with smoker?
[17:53:25] <Tom_itx> M7x1 takes a 6mm drill
[17:53:32] <JT-Shop> nothing it was a manual temperature control
[17:53:43] <JT-Shop> syyl: festo hmmm
[17:53:50] <JT-Shop> got a link?
[17:54:02] <syyl> *scratches his head*
[17:54:12] <syyl> could take a second :D
[17:54:52] <JT-Shop> I used to get festo way back when...
[17:55:26] <JT-Shop> wait till I tell my PHD rep that Festo has the plugs he needs LOL
[17:55:57] <syyl> http://www.festo.com/cat/de_de/data/doc_engb/PDF/EN/THREADED-FITTINGS_EN.PDF
[17:56:04] <syyl> page 6
[17:56:24] <syyl> how much do you need?
[17:57:04] <syyl> i could look in my leftover-pneumaticfittings-box
[17:57:21] <syyl> maybe there are a few m7 plugs..
[17:58:29] <JT-Shop> I'm not sure how many he needs
[17:59:26] <JT-Shop> syyl: thanks for the link
[18:00:05] <syyl> is festo common over in the us?
[18:00:31] <Tom_itx> not that i'm aware of
[18:00:33] <syyl> i always had the impression, that they are more focused on europe
[18:00:43] <JT-Shop> they are here, I used to use them as equipment from Germany that I had had Festo all over it
[18:01:12] <syyl> most people here use festo :D
[18:01:20] <syyl> (and a bit bosch)
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[18:36:45] <IG-garage> this my employer (the plant) let me take my bicycle into the shop, so I can cycle to work
[18:37:51] <IG-garage> Has arrived back to home on my bicycle, took all the puddles along the road, it's midnight and it's dark
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[21:44:23] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Well, I tracked down the place where M67 stops working.
[21:44:38] <JT-Shop> really, where
[21:44:47] <JT-Shop> how do you do that
[21:45:09] <andypugh> Just reading through the code
[21:46:00] <JT-Shop> where is it at?
[21:46:33] <andypugh> Line 1241
[21:46:33] <andypugh> http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=blob;f=src/emc/kinematics/tp.c;h=3f2c386fb52e56bc053cd9850bb97d87d6f99057;hb=HEAD
[21:47:08] <andypugh> And by putting a little rtapi_print_msg message in that code, I have proved that it gets called too.
[21:48:08] <JT-Shop> should it return something besides 0?
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[21:48:39] <andypugh> It _should_ add an analogue output action to the tc queue.
[21:48:54] <andypugh> As it is, it just quietly does nothing at all.
[21:49:32] <JT-Shop> I wonder if it ever worked?
[21:49:42] <andypugh> No. It can't have
[21:50:13] <JT-Shop> it must have been a place holder until someone got back to it...
[21:50:22] <andypugh> If it had ever contianed code, there would almost certainly be a message saying why it had ben removed
[21:51:10] <andypugh> But that routine is deep inside code I don't understand.
[21:52:47] <JT-Shop> I see in 2009 Alex made M62/63 work
[21:54:18] <YK> andypugh: can you help me write the HAL and INI file code for the industrial robot control system thus far discussed? I've read through some guides and sample files, and have a basic grasp as yet.
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[21:54:35] <andypugh> maybe alex_joni is at a loose end and wants a new task?
[21:55:05] <andypugh> YK: Aye, I should be able to help a bit.
[21:55:27] <andypugh> How far have you got?
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[21:56:51] <YK> andypugh: As far as I know, using some of the code from axis_9axis.ini seems right; as for the HAL file i'm much more lost due to the irregular stepper + solenoid hydraulic system
[21:57:06] <JT-Shop> I just looked where cradek added motion.requested-vel for me and he had to work on 5 different files... wow
[21:57:30] <YK> andypugh: I thought I'd start out correctly using others' advice, so not much has been coded out yet.
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[21:57:41] <andypugh> YK Is this a mesa card config? I can't remember.
[21:58:19] <YK> andypugh: yeah, unless there's a problem I have not foreseen, the mesa 7i43 seems compatible for the control system
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[21:59:52] <andypugh> How many axes do you have?
[22:00:14] <YK> andypugh: I've set up the hardware connections on a diagram, established the hydraulic circuit on another diagram, streamlining + enhancing the structural system, and now the only spot to start wrapping up is this software stuff. 6 axes.
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[22:02:49] <elmo40> what do you need 6 for?
[22:03:09] <YK> elmo40: an industrial robot for Open Source Ecology
[22:03:18] <andypugh> YK: I have just been fiddling with pncconf, and none of the firmwares that that knows about have 6 PWMs and 6 stepgens.
[22:03:27] <elmo40> ecology?
[22:03:33] <elmo40> they need robots?
[22:04:07] <YK> andypugh: You mean the configuration firmwares?
[22:04:14] <andypugh> Yes
[22:04:23] <YK> elmo40: yes, and 49 other machines
[22:04:38] <cncbasher> should be able to make that firmware
[22:04:43] <andypugh> I am looking through the ones that pncconf doesn't know about.
[22:05:01] <cncbasher> do you want me to make one for you andy ?
[22:05:23] <andypugh> It would be for YK
[22:05:32] <cncbasher> no problem
[22:05:53] <cncbasher> for a 7i43-4 or 7i43-2 ?
[22:05:57] <andypugh> But it would be useful to know if you can fit 6 encoders, 6 PWMs and 6 stepgens on a 7i43
[22:06:10] <andypugh> I would guess it would need to be a -4
[22:06:43] <cncbasher> thats 42 out of a possible 48
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[22:06:46] <cncbasher> pins
[22:06:51] <andypugh> No wait, scratch that
[22:06:57] <andypugh> I am being stupid
[22:07:15] <andypugh> No need for PWM, we just need 6 encoders and 6 steppers
[22:07:18] <cncbasher> should i agree with that statement ?
[22:07:34] <cncbasher> ok give me 10 mins or so
[22:07:37] <YK> cncbasher: thanks for the help ~ )
[22:07:42] <cncbasher> i'll build it now
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[22:07:49] <YK> andypugh: why no PWM needed?
[22:09:35] <MOGLI> YK: is this open source project?? can i read more about it on web? ,just curious about Industrial Robots..
[22:09:37] <andypugh> Why would you need a PWM?
[22:10:04] <cncbasher> yk: any particular port you want them on
[22:10:08] <elmo40> because
[22:10:16] <cncbasher> or pin config
[22:10:52] <YK> MOGLI: Yes, you can see the development thus far at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Main_Page and scroll down and click "Industrial Robot" right now it's going through major changes so the bill of materials and manufacturing instructions are outdated, most of the new stuff on "Research/Development"
[22:11:59] <YK> YK: Do you mean the computer parallel port DB25? I'm not certain what you mean- this is relatively new to me.
[22:12:29] <MOGLI> thanks YK
[22:12:33] <elmo40> ya parport
[22:13:04] <andypugh> cncbasher: Hold your horses, I think there probably is a 6-stepper firmware somewhere
[22:14:23] <andypugh> Can't see one in the standard config with 6 encoders though.
[22:14:52] <cncbasher> yea thats what i thought , not enough encoders
[22:15:18] <andypugh> 6+6 is only 36 pins, I think, so it could fit
[22:16:28] <andypugh> As I understand it there will be an encoder on each joint, one hydraulic pump, 6 steppers operating 6 valves, and 6 GPIO operating directional valves. Is that the plan?
[22:16:51] <YK> andypugh cncbasher: is copy/pasting code from other configurations (such as the 6-stepper firmware) possible for saving on code writing? Yes that is the plan thus far.
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[22:18:43] <andypugh> You are possibly conflating two tasks. Yes, you can copy and paste from other HAL files, with editing. Biut that is a separate issue to the firmware.
[22:21:02] <YK> andypugh: a separate issue to the firmware?
[22:21:58] <andypugh> Yes, you need firmware for the 7i43. Then you need to write/edit a HAL file that links the pins and function in that firmware into EMC2 and into your hardware
[22:23:54] <andypugh> Have you fiddled about in EMC2 with the puma config yet?
[22:24:03] <YK> andypugh: Ok got it, that confirms and clarifies along the lines of what I was thinking about the hardware/software linkage.
[22:24:43] <andypugh> HAL == Hardware Abstraction Layer. It's like a software plugboard where you can link any output to any input.
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[22:26:50] <YK> andypugh: Not yet - I didn't see it in the emc2 folder so I missed it - I just realized it now, I need to put the puma hal file into there through the emc2 config program
[22:27:37] <andypugh> No, it's easier than that. Start EMC2 and select the Puma560 from the configs selector.
[22:28:03] <andypugh> (Though that might be exactly what you meant)
[22:28:29] <YK> andypugh: (yes ~)
[22:30:12] <PCW> andypugh: I do get errors with test.hal (just infrequent, maybe 1/50 times))
[22:31:14] <andypugh> PCW: I need to try that sample config, but I am still trying to get 5i25 ready
[22:32:06] <YK> andypugh: Is it correct to infer that no files like the puma obj files are necessary to have?
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[22:33:13] <andypugh> Yes, that is correct. Those are used by that config to create the pretty graphical simulation. Those files define the geometry of the parts.
[22:33:38] <YK> andypugh: And the same goes for the xml files?
[22:34:03] <PCW> The generic sserial device seems usable with the new cards (though it uses the always 0 ID byte insted of the remote name in hal)
[22:34:48] <YK> Ah, I'll just take it as discussed before, needing only the ini and hal files)
[22:36:36] <andypugh> PCW: I think that generic sserial is gone from master now, though.
[22:40:03] <PCW> well once discovery works there will be no need
[22:40:17] <andypugh> That was why.
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[22:42:21] <andypugh> YK, a good start would be to create a config with pncconf
[22:42:56] <andypugh> PCW: Is it possible to have 6 encoders and 6 stepgens on a 7i43?
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[22:43:38] <YK> andypugh: you mean stepconf?
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[22:44:12] <PCW> In a 400K sure 200K not sure, maybe...
[22:44:33] <andypugh> YK: No, Pncconf, the Mesa-card config wizard
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[22:45:06] <PCW> actually I'm pretty sure it would fit in 200K or could be shoe-horned in
[22:46:17] <YK> andypugh: I'm having no luck locating pncconf, though I know what it is.
[22:46:33] <andypugh> just type "pnnconf" at the command line
[22:46:57] <andypugh> pncconf, I mean
[22:47:40] <YK> andypugh: any easy way to resize the window? It's a bit too tall for my screen.
[22:48:40] <andypugh> I think you might be able to hide options to shrink it
[22:48:57] <andypugh> I never use it. I just write in raw HAL.
[22:51:26] <YK> andypugh: Does pncconf offer a lot of relative simplicity compared to raw HAL? I don't think I'm able to get pncconf working due to the screen problem.
[22:51:56] <YK> andypugh: the puma hal file does seem doable enough...
[22:52:00] <andypugh> It makes a lot fewer typos
[22:54:15] <andypugh> OK, so start with the hm2-servo 7i43-big sample config
[22:54:44] <andypugh> Change the firmware to SVST4_6.BIT (for the time being you will only have 4 encoders)
[22:55:06] <andypugh> Swap the PWMGens for Stepgens.
[22:55:32] <YK> andypugh: k pncconf is working well, found a solution. Is that for within pncconf?
[22:55:34] <andypugh> Copy the Stepgen config rubrik from a stepper config, and you will be close.
[22:57:03] <andypugh> In that case use pncconf to create a config that lets you jog your valves open and closed. That will be a good start.
[22:57:20] <andypugh> Then splice that into the hm2-servo config as described.
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[22:58:01] <YK> andypugh: ok I'll do the non pncconf first then create the new config for valve jogging in pncconf
[22:58:05] <andypugh> You are going to have to get into the habit of starting EMC2 from the command line (just type "emc") or you will have little idea why it is crashing
[22:58:36] <andypugh> Er, I doubt that pncconf will be any help by that stage.
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[23:00:54] <YK> andypugh: so first replacing hostmoc2 with SVST4_6.BIT
[23:01:09] <andypugh> No
[23:01:31] <YK> andypugh: config = SVST4_6.BIT ?
[23:02:36] <andypugh> config="firmware=hm2/7i43/SVST4_6.BIT num_stepgens=6 num_encoders=4"
[23:04:14] <YK> andypugh: under the comment low level driver, without the quotation marks, I assume
[23:04:50] <andypugh> Where are you starting from?
[23:05:19] <YK> andypugh: the sample hm2-servo.hal file as you described earlier
[23:05:37] <andypugh> Ah, that probably pulls the config string in from the INI file.
[23:05:59] <andypugh> Try editing in there.
[23:07:39] <andypugh> [THINGS_LIKE_THIS]With_tags_like_this are how the HAL file reads data from the INI File.
[23:07:51] <Tom_itx> is this the latest currently available fileset for hostmot2? http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=hostmot2-firmware.git;a=tree;h=8aac18619d652b3845e5c6043b55fdc98f30a064;hb=8aac18619d652b3845e5c6043b55fdc98f30a064
[23:09:37] <andypugh> That's the latest EMC2 set. Pete might have others.
[23:09:47] <Tom_itx> ok
[23:09:56] <Tom_itx> for my purpse i think it will work
[23:11:17] <YK> andypugh: Got it, changed the config string in the 7i43 big ini file, and seeing as there is no mention of pwm there I assume the change to stepgen should be done in the hal file
[23:11:39] <andypugh> Yes
[23:12:39] <andypugh> You will need to look through the docs to work out what the pins on the pwm and stepgen are called, and what the equivalents are.
[23:13:36] <YK> andypugh: There, changed pwmgen to stepgen under #position command signals (is this all?)
[23:14:21] <andypugh> Probably not.
[23:15:19] <andypugh> There is going to be a ton more fiddling to do.
[23:15:32] <andypugh> Does EMC2 even start with your new config?
[23:15:52] <andypugh> (Ah, no, it won't, because you have no 7i43 attached)
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[23:27:53] <YK> Ok now I know what pins are assigned to the stepgen, stepdir, QCount A/B/IDX, and rest being GPIO (from the firmware). Any leads on future steps?
[23:29:56] <andypugh> First thing to do is get the encoders working
[23:31:17] <andypugh> Which involves physical wiring to the 7i43, then you should be able to see the encoder positions in halmeter
[23:32:03] <andypugh> Not knowing what environment you are in, it's hard to advise. Are you tinkering away in halcmd, or booting emc2 every time?
[23:33:00] <YK> andypugh: brief explanation / recommended environment?
[23:33:04] <andypugh> It's probably worth reading through the HAL docs while looking at the HAL file until you are comfortable with what is going on.
[23:33:26] <andypugh> You can work in HAL without loading EMCs
[23:33:35] <andypugh> (EMC2 I mean)
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[23:34:12] <andypugh> It can simplify things, sometimes. But not others
[23:35:17] <andypugh> In your case I would be tempted to try to get a single axis of encoder, valve, stepper working with a minimalist hal-only config.
[23:36:25] <andypugh> When that is working you will be able to type "setp pid.0.value 180" and have the joint rotate to 180 degrees.
[23:37:15] <andypugh> That removes all the complications of getting EMC2 to boot, needing to home, wondering if it is _meant_ to be working....
[23:38:44] <andypugh> YK: Do you actually have a 7i43 there and working now?
[23:39:14] <YK> andypugh: Ah, I see what you mean. halcmd seems solid enough to work with- I've never tried doing it in emc2. Yes, testing with minimal code and building up from there seems like the right way to go. I don't have a 7i43 currently
[23:39:44] <andypugh> There is really very little you can do until you have ardware.
[23:40:20] <andypugh> But you could set up a single axis using just a parallel port.
[23:42:29] <YK> andypugh: I think the optimal route is to wrap up the structural system development and start the partial prototype with 1 axis soon then. How long would you predict it to take to get this control system functional given all the required hardware?
[23:43:35] <andypugh> I think that there is an awful lot to be said for starting with a parallel port single axis
[23:44:05] <andypugh> Hold off on the 7i43 until you have proof of concept
[23:44:32] <andypugh> You can run a few stepgens and a few encoders from a parallel port.
[23:45:33] <andypugh> I will try to cobble together a single-axis parport system tomorrow. (it's getting late here)
[23:46:06] <cncbasher> goodnight all
[23:46:40] <YK> Alright, good night and I appreciate all the help!
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