#emc | Logs for 2011-08-26

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[00:22:33] <Danimal_garage> mmmm... beer...
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[00:42:21] <Danimal_garage> i wish i had power feed on the z axis of my manual mill...
[00:42:40] <frysteev> build one?
[00:42:45] <Danimal_garage> ehh
[00:42:50] <KimK> Drilling holes?
[00:43:05] <Danimal_garage> no, cranking up the knee
[00:43:20] <Valen> battery drill ftw?
[00:43:27] <Danimal_garage> lol.....
[00:43:28] <frysteev> you and your knee cranking
[00:43:40] <toastyde1th> does your mill have a quill
[00:43:48] <Danimal_garage> this is a bridgeport, not a desktop mill lol
[00:43:49] <Valen> somewhere i have videos of us testing our ball screws on the mill with one ;->
[00:43:54] <Danimal_garage> yes, a 5 inch quill
[00:44:13] <frysteev> Danimal_garage: you mean you dont have a desk strongenough for your bp?
[00:44:20] <toastyde1th> why are you cranking your knee all over the place
[00:44:25] <Valen> don't underestimate a drill it'll more than likley do the job
[00:44:26] <Danimal_garage> but when i need to drill the end of a 12" long part, then lay it down to drill holes on the side, there's a bit of knee cranking involved
[00:44:35] <toastyde1th> ah
[00:45:23] <Danimal_garage> Valen: it probably needs about 15 ftlbs of torque
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[00:45:35] <frysteev> more torques
[00:45:40] <Valen> you just need better drills ;-P
[00:45:40] <Danimal_garage> the drill wouldn't last long
[00:45:45] <FinboySlick> Yo gang.
[00:45:56] <frysteev> use interns
[00:46:20] <Danimal_garage> i do need an intern...
[00:46:43] <frysteev> with knees
[00:46:50] <FinboySlick> Anyone has a ref for actual dimensions of MT#2 collets? I'm wondering if one could slip through a 0.9" hole.
[00:49:48] <frysteev> robot arm that could pour beer would be a fun party
[00:51:52] <KimK> Valen: Were you talking about one of these? http://search.ebay.com/170686658061
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[01:00:35] <frysteev> KimK: that looks cool
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[01:08:27] <Danimal_garage> just 3 little parts left to make to finish the engraver's z axis!
[01:08:45] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage: Got pics?
[01:08:49] <Danimal_garage> everything is done except for the ballscrew brackets
[01:08:51] <Danimal_garage> not yet
[01:08:56] <frysteev> booo
[01:09:54] <FinboySlick> I think I got my adapter plate mostly thought-out. Space for bolt heads and countersinks is terribly tight though.
[01:10:01] <Danimal_garage> yea, yea, i know...
[01:10:24] <Danimal_garage> FinboySlick: pics? lol
[01:10:45] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage: Yup.
[01:10:55] <frysteev> he wnats pics of your z axis :P
[01:11:42] <Danimal_garage> gotta finish it first!
[01:13:04] <Danimal_garage> i'll finish it tonight hopefully
[01:13:22] <FinboySlick> frysteev: That's naughty.
[01:16:25] <FinboySlick> http://imagebin.org/169680
[01:17:15] <FinboySlick> It's going to be a bitch to wrench in but I'm thinking I might drill the bolt sides so I can tighten them with a pin.
[01:17:55] <frysteev> or use allen headed bolts
[01:18:41] <FinboySlick> This goes between two full-diameter objects. I can't access the top one set of bolts when the other is fastened.
[01:29:53] <MonstaBelly> Can you use usb instead of a parallel port for emc2?
[01:30:35] <FinboySlick> MonstaBelly: For motor control, probably not.
[01:31:18] <FinboySlick> MonstaBelly: For stuff that isn't timing-sensitive, probably.
[01:32:07] <MonstaBelly> darn. thx!
[01:39:56] <Valen> KimK: i wasn't but thats cool too lol
[01:40:17] <Valen> the ends on our ballscrews were just small enough to fit in the chuck of the drill ;->
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[01:48:40] <Danimal_garage> one piece down, 2 to go
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[02:14:31] <elmo40> I have a P3-933 with integrated Intel 815e with UMA, would that offer better latency then is I added ati/nvidia card?
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[02:30:01] <Danimal_garage> yay, last piece is made
[02:30:47] <Tom_itx> pics or it never happened
[02:31:10] <Danimal_garage> yea yea
[02:31:15] <Danimal_garage> later
[02:31:19] <Danimal_garage> wanna assemble it
[02:38:09] <KimK> elmo40: I don't know, but I just had I think it was an Intel 810(?) and I was trying to add a video card to improve things. YMMV.
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[02:45:09] <elmo40> when I added an nVidia to my AMD system the latency skyrocketed
[02:45:29] <elmo40> so I think I will stick with the embedded. it does 1024x768 easily.
[02:48:54] <frysteev> mmmm embreaded pbj sandwich
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[03:50:06] <Danimal_garage> yay, the Z axis is really rigid now
[03:50:12] <Danimal_garage> should be plenty good
[03:58:37] <elmo40> nice
[03:58:41] <elmo40> cutting steel yet?
[04:01:45] <Danimal_garage> ha
[04:01:52] <Danimal_garage> it's an engraving machine
[04:02:10] <toastydeath> just use a teeny endmill and take a lot of passes
[04:02:38] <Danimal_garage> i'd rather just use my mill lol
[04:03:45] <Valen> elmo40: did you have multicore?
[04:07:29] <elmo40> I do have
[04:07:34] <elmo40> but not on my mill computer
[04:07:43] <elmo40> Intel i5, quad. not bad.
[04:10:42] <Valen> i found that multicore does wonders for latency
[04:10:57] <Valen> best i have had was a dual cpu (not dual core) xeon with nvidia card
[04:11:01] <Valen> ~2k latency
[04:11:22] <Valen> also with nvidia you get a ~30k spike when opening a new openGL window
[04:11:29] <Valen> but once its opened its fine
[04:14:46] <Danimal_garage> the engraving is coming out pretty good now with the new z axis
[04:14:51] <Danimal_garage> looks like that fixed it
[04:15:32] <Danimal_garage> time for dinner, adios
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[06:15:54] <automata> Can anyone point me to instructions on making a live CD with Ubuntu and EMC2?
[06:16:26] <automata> I have made some changes to EMC2 source and want to try it out with various PCs
[06:17:59] <Eartaker> anyone use Mastercam?
[06:20:31] <psha[work]> automata: make USB flash install
[06:22:23] <KimK> psha[work]: make has that scripted? Wow, that's pretty easy then!
[06:22:37] <psha[work]> :)
[06:22:50] <psha[work]> i mean 'install emc2 to usb stick' :)
[06:23:25] <psha[work]> however unattended installs are very easy using d-i presets
[06:23:35] <psha[work]> so it's really possible to do via make
[06:24:30] <KimK> So not make then? Just like you said, "install emc2 to usb stick", is that it?
[06:26:27] <automata> wow!! Make has that scripted!!!
[06:26:56] <automata> would that install the complete ubuntu live CD to flash?
[06:28:27] <KimK> automata: I know that if you have an iso image, you can use Unetbootin to move it to flash and be bootable, but I didn't think that was really the answer to your original question.
[06:28:58] <automata> I see how this will work...
[06:29:25] <automata> LiveCD to boot Realtime and modified EMC on flash to run...
[06:29:50] <automata> Mount flash after booting from Live CD and then run from flash..
[06:30:17] <psha[work]> automata: take flash drive, install emc from livecd to it
[06:30:24] <psha[work]> just boot livecd and select install
[06:30:34] <psha[work]> then replace emc2 with new one
[06:30:54] <psha[work]> you'll get bootable flash drive that will work on any computer (surely if it support booting from usb)
[06:38:07] <MonstaBelly> is a parallel adapter for a pcmcia port compatible with emc2?
[06:38:11] <MonstaBelly> thx in advance
[06:40:57] <KimK> A pcmcia port suggests a laptop. With a laptop, you may have a variety of other issues that might prevent running emc.
[06:41:32] <KimK> Have you tried the latency test on this laptop?
[06:44:25] <MonstaBelly> i have but i wasnt entirely sure wat numbers were acceptable
[06:47:19] <MonstaBelly> my max jitter for base thread is 22000
[06:48:09] <psha[work]> MarkusBec: how long you've run latency test?
[06:48:09] <KimK> Maybe these will help? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?RealTime http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Hardware_Requirements http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[06:48:25] <MonstaBelly> for about 2 minutes now
[06:48:26] <psha[work]> 22us is not bad but usually notebooks have bursts
[06:48:57] <psha[work]> run for at least 12 hours, 24 is much better
[06:49:47] <MonstaBelly> okay. wat is a good way to abuse it while im not on the laptop?
[06:50:46] <psha[work]> glxgears (x2), some sort of disk access and cpu burning (zcat /dev/urandom > /dev/null)
[06:51:24] <psha[work]> oops, gzip -c /dev/urandom > /dev/null
[06:51:39] <automata> psha.. .Thanx... got it... will try it out...
[06:52:08] <psha[work]> but for notebook it's very easy to kill latency - try to unplug/plug power cord :)
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[06:54:02] <MonstaBelly> sorry im not familiar with linux
[06:54:12] <MonstaBelly> do i type that in the terminal?
[06:54:56] <psha[work]> glxgears may be called from menu but i don't know where it lives
[06:55:06] <psha[work]> Alt-F2 and type 'glxgears'
[06:55:17] <psha[work]> run it twice
[06:55:33] <psha[work]> then open console and type 'gzip -c /dev/urandom > /dev/null'
[06:56:10] <psha[work]> that'll compress random data until you kill it with Control + C
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[06:56:45] <psha[work]> or just close console window
[06:57:46] <psha[work]> to load disk you'll need something like 'while true; dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=1M; done'
[06:58:26] <psha[work]> it will read whole disk in loop
[07:00:29] <MonstaBelly> my max jitter is 479308 now
[07:00:46] <KimK> MonstaBelly: If your system can't find glxgears, then "sudo apt-get install mesa-utils" (without the quotes)
[07:01:04] <KimK> MonstaBelly: Ah, you must have found it. Nevermind.
[07:01:16] <MonstaBelly> so my laptop is a really bad candidate?
[07:01:21] <MonstaBelly> :(
[07:01:32] <psha[work]> yes
[07:01:47] <psha[work]> you may omit word 'my'
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[07:02:01] <MonstaBelly> lol
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[07:02:48] <archivist> replace with all (that we know of so far)
[07:03:40] <KimK> MonstaBelly: Probably, we are told that most laptops are bad candidates. I haven't tried a laptop with emc2 myself but I believe it. The good news though, is that about every other PC you see sitting out on the curb will run emc2 just fine. So grab the next three that you see, lol.
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[07:04:23] <MonstaBelly> haha yea. im so sad i threw all those desktops away and now i can't find any
[07:05:20] <KimK> Maybe try Craigslist, Freecycle, etc?
[07:08:16] <Loetmichel> moin
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[07:12:59] <MonstaBelly> seems they are in high demand lately
[07:13:04] <MonstaBelly> atleast in los angeles
[07:14:12] <KimK> I was talking to a used computer dealer today, and he said he has very little left in stock due to what he called the back-to-school rush.
[07:15:03] <KimK> Everybody is upgrading from whatever they had, and the people at the bottom who didn't have anything before, do now.
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[08:10:27] <awallin> someone is throwing a 130+ node cluster of 19" rack-machines over here, anyone interested :)
[08:19:45] <Spida> where is "here"?
[08:23:59] <awallin> at uni in finland. well I'm not sure where it's going, to some use or directly to recycling...
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[08:41:34] <Loetmichel> awallin; ther may be an issue with power requirements for 1530++ computers
[08:41:44] <Loetmichel> even if they are blade server
[08:42:09] <Loetmichel> also not every basement is capable of dissipating so much heat ;-)
[08:42:14] <Loetmichel> 130+
[08:42:44] <psha[work]> Loetmichel: all you need is single fan
[08:43:06] <psha[work]> however you'll get too much water inside on rainy days :)
[08:43:21] <Loetmichel> psha[work]: building-sized fan?
[08:43:23] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[08:45:18] <Loetmichel> hmm... i have about enough stock her to build 250 Computers with p4 3ghz and 80gb disk/2gb ram...
[08:45:48] <Loetmichel> would make a nice cluster... but the heat...
[08:46:03] <Loetmichel> here= @ work
[08:46:27] <psha[work]> heh, power consumption is not bothering you? :)
[08:46:32] <Loetmichel> can throw in some 50 C2d an xeons also ;-)
[08:47:18] <Loetmichel> psha[work]: utility is 125A 400V three phase over here, should not be a problem ;-)
[08:47:23] <psha[work]> 50kW at lower bound (for your 250 p4)
[08:48:15] <psha[work]> ah, you'll get a bit for coffee machine then :)
[08:48:22] <Loetmichel> hihi
[08:48:50] <psha[work]> however 200W per computer is a very optimistic for p4 :)
[08:49:18] <psha[work]> so probably you'll have to boil water using 'alternative' sources of energy
[08:49:25] <Loetmichel> the caveat: the stock is NOS, we had ordered a little much as spares for our systems ;=)
[08:49:27] <psha[work]> for example - computer heatsinks :)
[08:49:59] <Loetmichel> psha[work]: i dont think so
[08:50:31] <Loetmichel> the industrial boards here conume about 80W idle an about 180W full load
[08:50:34] <Loetmichel> consume
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[08:51:07] <Loetmichel> ... hehe, i would like to see a backplane for ALL the 250 CPUcards on one bus ;-)
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[09:44:38] <TekniQue> 08:49:35 < evilroot> There's not even any such THING
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[10:00:46] <awallin_> so I got one i7 booted with the liveCD. what would be a simple program/task that can be run on LiveCD to load the machine? I thought about compiling ocl or emc2, but there are no tools for that on the livecd (git, compilers, etc)
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[10:10:24] <automata> last night someone on this list had suggested some small task...
[10:10:29] <automata> loking it up...
[10:11:05] <automata> Well That was today!!! <psha[work]> then open console and type 'gzip -c /dev/urandom > /dev/null'
[10:11:24] <automata> gzip -c /dev/urandom > /dev/null
[10:12:07] <psha[work]> awallin_: however this will only load one core of processor
[10:12:20] <psha[work]> you need to load video subsystem (glxgears) and disk (dd ....)
[10:12:36] <awallin_> what's the -c option?
[10:13:21] <awallin_> hm stdout
[10:13:27] <automata> -c sends the gzip output to stdout which is /dev/null
[10:13:29] <awallin_> I can try that
[10:16:55] <awallin_> that does load the CPUs to 100%
[10:17:39] <psha[work]> awallin_: only one core :(
[10:18:38] <awallin_> yeah it's an i7 with HT, so 8 cores shown to ubuntu. I started about 9 terminals with that gzip running in each. not much impact on the jitter-numbers
[10:19:30] <psha[work]> do you have /dev/sda?
[10:19:37] <psha[work]> then run dd if=/dev/sda of=/dev/null bs=1m
[10:19:49] <psha[work]> that'll read whole disk
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[10:20:18] <awallin_> that better not screw up the disk then :)
[10:25:13] <psha[work]> this kind of command is pretty harmless - even if you mess if= and of= parameters /dev/null is empty and you won't overwrite anything
[10:26:39] <IG-garage> psha[work]: what is bs= option?
[10:28:17] <IG-garage> psha[work]: is it possible to write ones (not zeroes) to whole disk and by this mean perform low-level formatting when the disk is checking itself and marks up all bad sectors
[10:28:47] <psha[work]> block-size
[10:29:15] <IG-garage> i thought you mean minutes
[10:29:51] <psha[work]> ones?
[10:29:59] <IG-garage> I know of mhdd tool but i thought there's something in Linux
[10:30:00] <psha[work]> if you want low-level formatting better to use /dev/urandom
[10:30:30] <IG-garage> psha[work]: well, i meant '1' for something to be written, not '0'
[10:30:30] <psha[work]> /dev/random may exaust random pool and stall
[10:30:50] <psha[work]> stream of zeroes may be taken from /dev/zero
[10:30:56] <psha[work]> or /dev/full :)
[10:31:11] <IG-garage> and stream of ones
[10:31:17] <IG-garage> stream of 1 ??
[10:31:20] <psha[work]> don't know
[10:31:38] <IG-garage> if not you, who?
[10:31:44] <psha[work]> i've not encountered any tasks where stream of 1's is needed
[10:31:54] <psha[work]> and i don't see anything in /dev/ :)
[10:31:54] <IG-garage> why?
[10:31:58] <psha[work]> what for?
[10:32:13] <psha[work]> if you want to nuke something use either /dev/zero of /dev/[u]random
[10:32:13] <Loetmichel> you have to be root to see /dev
[10:32:21] <psha[work]> Loetmichel: then i'm root!
[10:32:46] <psha[work]> btw you have strange setup if you have o-r on /dev
[10:32:48] <IG-garage> well, writing zeroes you write nothing in fact
[10:32:52] <psha[work]> no
[10:33:01] <psha[work]> writing zeroes you write zeroes
[10:33:05] <psha[work]> usually
[10:33:11] <psha[work]> if it's not the case - write /dev/urandom
[10:33:20] <IG-garage> someone has told it writes nothing
[10:33:22] <psha[work]> it will generate enought noise to kill even traces of data
[10:33:35] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: wrong
[10:33:42] <psha[work]> take ключ на 32 and kick him in the head
[10:33:52] <Loetmichel> it will write zeroes to every block on the HDD
[10:34:44] <IG-garage> psha[work]: you even know of such a keys existing? you're truly a mechanic then!
[10:34:51] <IG-garage> ok
[10:35:04] <psha[work]> IG-garage: heh, i've used one in the beginning of the month :)
[10:35:15] <Loetmichel> psha[work]: since gigantic magnetoresonance effect used for data storage one time wirting with ones or zeroes is enough
[10:35:24] <psha[work]> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WrBIsw9_S00/TklX7vFrarI/AAAAAAAAAH0/8W5ThSdWtyU/s912/DSC_0134.JPG
[10:35:33] <IG-garage> so. i can low-format the hdd with 'dd if=/dev/full of=/dev/sda' ??
[10:35:55] <psha[work]> Loetmichel: however my paranoia tell me that /dev/urandom would be better :)
[10:36:00] <Loetmichel> there were tests lately: the residual magnetic field after writing zeroes ist below thermic noise-> not decodeable
[10:36:28] <IG-garage> psha[work]: don't say it's your car
[10:36:54] <psha[work]> IG-garage: mine returned alive :) this was second car in our group
[10:37:11] <psha[work]> we've fixed it in the field
[10:37:27] <Loetmichel> looks more like my kind of working setup...
[10:37:30] <psha[work]> in the bottom you may see parts of axle hub :)
[10:37:30] <IG-garage> ha, but i only have earned my apartment, not a car yet
[10:37:49] <Loetmichel> but since i am married i gor a whole lot more careful and less death-defying ;-)
[10:38:08] <Loetmichel> s/gor/got
[10:39:30] <psha[work]> gray stones are damn bad as a floor for car repair - searching for fallen screws and nuts is not easy
[10:40:37] <IG-garage> several days ago, friend wanted me to paint aluminum wheels of Audi 100 for his moskvich 2141, i wanted to make just some fining as for polishing, and give him winter tyres as a gift. But I was laughing whole night at work on him instead. He's so deep in tuning that he's just 'weaving the dicks' instead of normal life and rides.
[10:41:21] <IG-garage> psha[work]: would you cover aluminum disks with paint?
[10:42:14] <psha[work]> IG-garage: only when they are totally covered with scratches
[10:42:34] <psha[work]> but even then i'll better try to polish them
[10:42:55] <IG-garage> and his girlfriend often leaving him because of such an ideas. More attention to car than to her maybe. It has touched me to do differently.
[10:43:07] <psha[work]> teached ;)
[10:43:11] <IG-garage> well, painting it would consume money and time
[10:43:17] <IG-garage> yes, teached.
[10:43:25] <psha[work]> what color?
[10:43:48] <IG-garage> well, he wants black with white or bronze spokes
[10:43:55] <psha[work]> hm, i bet ping disks would look nice with 32" MT tyres :)
[10:44:02] <psha[work]> s/ping/pink
[10:44:32] <IG-garage> that's not Paris Hilton's or Elton John's or his girlfriend's car
[10:45:36] <psha[work]> heh, 32" MT on gildfriends car...
[10:45:47] <psha[work]> girlfriends
[10:46:06] <IG-garage> psha[work]: Was it hard to earn your apartment in big non-cheap city and buy a car? Or it is normal for our money and cultural capitals to pay enough to people for them to buy what they need.
[10:46:54] <psha[work]> car - easy, apartment - not :)
[10:47:15] <IG-garage> i'm working for USD 700 mybe right now (this month), one man near works for USD 1500, we produce steel details
[10:48:12] <psha[work]> car on the photo costs ~800krur, that may be earned withing one year
[10:48:40] <psha[work]> mine was 600krur
[10:48:52] <IG-garage> I think they will pay to me a bit more, and after the university, it is still strange for me to get money regularly from what I do on a daily basis.
[10:48:59] <psha[work]> typical salary for _experienced_ programmer in moscow is something like 100krur
[10:49:24] <psha[work]> in science - 10krur :)
[10:49:28] <IG-garage> So it's true about e.g. 110 K roubles per month for e.g. 1C programmer?
[10:49:46] <psha[work]> 1C - probably, but i'm talking about programmers, not 1C ones :)
[10:49:53] <IG-garage> uhu!
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[10:50:22] <psha[work]> 1C segment is a bit overheated - but there are enought money to pay normal salaries
[10:51:08] <IG-garage> yeah, it's weird to work for 9.4 K roubles per month
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[10:53:08] <psha[work]> i was working for more then 5 years for ~10krur :)
[10:53:30] <psha[work]> but i has many side projects that we feeding me
[10:54:55] <IG-garage> i worked for 9.4 Krur dong the same job as 18 Krur for some time. Then I worked at another department of the plant for 15 Krur. Now I have quited and happy with freedom while working at the place with payment rate starting from 15 Krur
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[11:57:48] <i_tarzan> Krur?
[11:58:33] <psha[work]> 1000 russian rubles
[11:58:38] <automata> <awallin_>:any numbers on the latency??
[12:11:17] <Loetmichel> shit: THAT Notebook Powersupply is dead... fet 0 ohm, both power diodes 0ohm, ALL pins of the SMPS controller 0 ohm...
[12:13:03] * Loetmichel wonders how THAT could happen
[12:19:04] <Valen> broken meter? ;->
[12:19:56] <Loetmichel> Valen: no, plugged it in yesterday: *BANG*, fuse in the PS dead, fuse for the wall cuircuit dead...
[12:20:18] <Valen> fet shorted power to ground makes for good bang
[12:21:37] <Loetmichel> yes, but the secondary dioses AND the controller also short? THAT is new
[12:21:57] <Loetmichel> priomary rectiffier and fet dead i had often...
[12:22:03] <Valen> when the fet goes and blasts 240 around the place
[12:22:12] <Valen> gets often die source > gate
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[12:24:06] <psha[work]> Loetmichel: if you have 125A 400V it's not same that you have to use all of them for this notebook psu :)
[12:24:12] <Loetmichel> s/240/325
[12:25:05] <HDB10> Hi psha :-)
[12:25:10] <psha[work]> HDB10: hi
[12:25:23] <Loetmichel> had to feel it yesterday, the primary capacitor was full til 240V rectified
[12:25:48] <Loetmichel> as i dismantled it ;-)
[12:26:53] <awallin_> I put my latency-test results here now http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test the LiveCD booted one i7 machine OK, but refused to boot another one. I can try a third one at home later.
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[12:30:04] <MOGLI> hello JT-Shop, i got THCAD today, want to try it. is there any wiki related to it?? demo pin connections etc.. i read one thread on forum. do i need any extra hardware for touch probe??
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[12:30:42] <jthornton> MOGLI: there is a sample config for the THCAD
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[12:32:07] <jthornton> it may only be in 2.5... a switch is needed for the floating head connected to the probe input
[12:32:18] <MOGLI> yes i saw it.. but wiring is the issue.. :( m using HyperTherm PoweMax45. just want to make sure so that it doesnt damage anything
[12:32:41] <MOGLI> m using 7I43 with breakout i think 7I42TA
[12:32:58] <MOGLI> mechanical switch right????
[12:33:29] <jthornton> I use a common micro switch
[12:33:45] <MOGLI> one question .. cant we use Plasma TIP as touch off??? i mean connect wire with plasma tip and let z axis go down till it touches the plate??
[12:34:10] <jthornton> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Plasma%20Cutter/Plasma012.jpg
[12:34:20] <HDB10> jthornton Hi :-)
[12:34:30] <jthornton> that is beyond my guesspertice
[12:34:34] <jthornton> hi
[12:35:36] <jthornton> in the photo the micro switch touches the edge of the sliding mount as the torch touches the plate
[12:36:19] <MOGLI> mechanical setting?? sorry but i m confused...
[12:36:46] <MOGLI> cant figure out how it works :(
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[12:36:52] <jthornton> the torch is mounted to a sliding plate
[12:37:38] <jthornton> as the Z goes down when the tip touches the plate it stops but the switch part goes down until the switch is pressed
[12:39:28] <MOGLI> ok.. you mean when it touches plate torch goes up.. switch is fixed???
[12:39:29] <HDB10> Hi all maybe there is interest in 3D Printing solid parts: John Neilson to me
[12:39:30] <HDB10>
[12:39:30] <HDB10> show details Aug 4
[12:39:30] <HDB10>
[12:39:30] <HDB10> http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21128236.100-3d-printing-the-technology-that-changes-everything.html
[12:40:09] <jthornton> the switch is mounted to the Z axis slide
[12:40:11] <jthornton> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvhvQu5Xxtk
[12:41:05] <jthornton> ah not a good vid
[12:41:29] <IG-garage> JT-Shop: when you will be here, gimme a link to the webpage with the photos of your shop, or send the photos to me. I need to save it and copy to offline PC. I think friend of mine will be inspired. He's right now about to decide whether to build a standalone robust garage at his territory or rather a room for car and his motocross motorcycles.
[12:41:56] <jthornton> gnipsel.com
[12:43:30] <jthornton> http://www.youtube.com/user/Gnipsel#p/u/5/EC1_TTlsOrM
[12:43:49] <jthornton> here I'm building the plasma cutter with the plasma cutter
[12:44:41] <HDB10> The 3D Printing is done in plastic quiet solid parts.
[12:45:04] <MOGLI> ok i got it.. thanks jthornton
[12:45:09] <jthornton> time for a shower
[12:45:11] <jthornton> cool
[12:45:15] <MOGLI> and which plasma u using???
[12:45:25] <jthornton> Hypertherm 1250
[12:45:41] <MOGLI> can you give me picture links to your plasma with THCAD.. so i cann work out with hypertherm...
[12:45:56] <automata> <awallin_>:Thanks...
[12:46:15] <MOGLI> i mean wiring dia kind of thing.. i dont want to take risk.. just copy paste .. if necessary i will use 5I20 ;)
[12:46:25] <MOGLI> coz i am not electrical guy :(
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[12:49:22] <HDB10> jthornton: Can you cut 3/8" plate with plasma ?
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[13:08:52] <IG-garage> thanks, jthornton
[13:13:28] <automata> Hi, I have a written a proof of concept EMC client that is platform agnostic... Would there be any interest in this sort of thing here??
[13:14:24] <automata> So, From a windows Box, I can connect to the EMC machine, get status updates upon change of state and get timely position feedback (for display and back plotting)...
[13:14:54] <automata> All this happens over Network connections using much of the same architecture as emcrsh
[13:15:38] <automata> I have tested the client running Locally on Ubuntu as well as WinXp (from my laptop)...
[13:17:11] <automata> Backplotting is still a major task in the To-do List... But we always OpenGl to the rescue... though it is really steep learning curve...
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[13:20:24] <MOGLI> jthronton, are you back??? how to use ARC OK Signal ?? direct wiring or any relay kind of thing in between ARC OK wires and MESA Cards???
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[13:28:08] <MOGLI> manuals says its dry contact(NO VOLTAGE) so i think i can use directly with 7I43.i.e. one wire in any input pin and another on ground pin
[13:28:14] <MOGLI> any suggestion??
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[14:05:14] <automata> I have compiled the emc2.6~pre version on a liveCD installed computer which has emc2.4
[14:05:44] <automata> I want to now replace the emc2.4 version with the emc2.6~pre version...
[14:05:48] <automata> how do I do that?
[14:06:22] <automata> I am having trouble with the -enable-run-in-place flag with the ./configure script
[14:06:23] <psha[work]> build .deb file and install or use in RIP mode
[14:06:34] <psha[work]> --enable....
[14:06:48] <automata> yes --enable-run-in-place mode
[14:06:53] <psha[work]> what's problem
[14:06:53] <psha[work]> ?
[14:07:16] <automata> I donot want to run in place anymore.. I would like to install it to /usr/bin
[14:07:27] <automata> how do I make the .deb??
[14:07:48] <psha[work]> fakeroot debian/rules binary
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[14:08:00] <psha[work]> or dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot -b
[14:08:20] <psha[work]> or maybe not -b - don't remember
[14:08:33] <psha[work]> there is script to generate control from control.in files
[14:08:40] <psha[work]> but now i have to run :)
[14:08:43] <automata> The makefile has a target called install
[14:08:43] <psha[work]> cu
[14:08:47] <automata> thanx psha
[14:08:50] <psha[work]> DON'T USE IT!!11
[14:08:51] <psha[work]> :)
[14:08:57] <automata> oh..
[14:08:59] <psha[work]> that's not for mortals :)
[14:09:12] <automata> oh ok...
[14:09:15] <psha[work]> you'll get your system polluted with mixture of old and new emc2
[14:09:22] <psha[work]> one from package and other from make install
[14:09:22] <automata> ok
[14:09:38] <psha[work]> finally you'll throw away that system and reinstall it
[14:09:40] <automata> that seems a likely and BAD outcome..
[14:10:02] <psha[work]> so it's better to go correct way from the beginning :)
[14:10:52] <automata> so what is the correct way? make deb packages from the compiled one?
[14:11:53] <psha[work]> RIP or .deb
[14:12:06] <psha[work]> if you don't want RIP - you need package
[14:12:26] <psha[work]> catch me in the evening if you need some assistance
[14:12:30] <psha[work]> or seb_kuzminsky
[14:12:30] <automata> sure...
[14:12:42] <psha[work]> he's more confident
[14:12:48] <psha[work]> bb
[14:12:52] <automata> thanx
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[15:16:13] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: wetter is windy ?
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[15:17:31] <IchGuckLive> forcast says direkt hit with cat3 on your position 25mil away
[15:19:54] <IchGuckLive> big thunder here so i need to close down !
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[17:00:00] <IchGuckLive> Hi all
[17:01:25] <micges> hi
[17:02:50] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: still standing ?
[17:03:45] <IchGuckLive> my aunt is leaving NJ at 20:00 ET
[17:03:58] <jdhNC> sure she isl
[17:04:01] <IchGuckLive> hedding west
[17:04:13] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: They have the Drobo FS (ethernet) up to 5x 3TB (diskless) on sale for $499
[17:04:48] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: NC witt take the full hit
[17:04:58] <jdhNC> last update has it weakened and a little more east
[17:05:17] <IchGuckLive> still a cat2
[17:05:41] <jdhNC> 2's that keep moving are fine... 2's that slow down suck
[17:05:49] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I called Drobo TS. The HW logs are ENCRYPTED, uses ext PS, supports SMB/AFP, and addons do SSH, httpd
[17:06:11] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Uses EXT3 FS
[17:07:21] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: http://flhurricane.com/cyclone/wxstatement.php?id=453572
[17:08:08] <jdhNC> yep
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[17:09:40] <IchGuckLive> http://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/tropic2/real-time/atlantic/storm/movies/MOV8-4.09L.GIF Monster
[17:10:20] <jdhNC> nah
[17:11:10] <IchGuckLive> 14MPH is real slow for a storm like this
[17:11:26] <jdhNC> http://rsd.gsfc.nasa.gov/rsd/images/Floyd/Floyd_19990914_1259_hg.jpg
[17:11:31] <jdhNC> that was a monster
[17:12:30] <IchGuckLive> we will see what happens what is your loacal forcast telling you
[17:12:50] <jdhNC> same thing everywhere else is
[17:13:10] <IchGuckLive> duck and cover
[17:14:28] <jdhNC> http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/text/refresh/MIAPWSAT4+shtml/260859.shtml
[17:14:40] <jdhNC> that's my favorite hurricane weather product
[17:15:36] <jdhNC> followed by the Navy http://www.nrlmry.navy.mil/tc_pages/tc_home.html
[17:16:45] <IchGuckLive> as here
[17:17:05] <Loetmichel> re @ home...
[17:17:05] <IchGuckLive> but NC is not on the mayior target list anymore
[17:17:34] <jdhNC> morehead & hatteras still look like the first targets
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[17:18:38] <Danimal_garage> hi
[17:21:54] <IchGuckLive> Danimal_garage: B)
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[17:22:18] <IchGuckLive> jdhNC: overall you gone make it with a umpreller O.O
[17:23:12] <IchGuckLive> and the weather next week will be Super fine
[17:26:19] <IchGuckLive> By thunder overhead increasing
[17:26:55] <IchGuckLive> this week 1 thunderstorm after the other beond 18:00 MESZ
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[17:39:40] <hatch789> anyone know if PCW or pcw_home has been online at all this afternoon?
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[18:11:39] <hatch789> andypugh: got some time to chat? I'd like to finalize my order with Mesa
[18:11:41] <psha> hatch789: check logs - 'afternoon' depends on your timezone
[18:13:22] <andypugh> hatch789: PCW is probably the best one to talk to.
[18:14:07] <hatch789> andypugh: he's not answering
[18:14:52] <andypugh> What are you trying to connect up?
[18:15:57] <hatch789> andypugh: just trying to finalize my order for my boards and also looking to get confirmation from you or someone that I could get some help writing the driver for a 7I49 board
[18:16:51] <hatch789> pcw was stuck last time trying to help me with my 7i43-u-4 board. He was asking me whether my servos were digital or analog (I think) because I guess that was going to make a difference in that board being the right one or not
[18:17:25] <andypugh> I think KimK is planning to write the 7i49 driver, starting this weekend.
[18:17:32] <hatch789> or it might have been the resolver question. I can't remember ...something was giving him pause
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[18:19:58] <hatch789> ok ...well I told him I was happy to help develop the driver as well if I could just get some assistance to get me started.
[18:20:20] <hatch789> that's all I was looking for... just some guidance to get me started
[18:21:42] <andypugh> Getting the data out of the card is easy. Working out how to present it to EMC2 for maximum compatibility is the challenge.
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[18:35:19] <automata> Can the Mesa 5i25 be used as a replacement for the 7i43 Parallel port cards?
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[18:36:19] <automata> in the 5i25, Are the PCI controller tasks also implemented in the xilinx FPGA?
[18:36:33] <automata> It does not seem to have a separate PCI controller...
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[18:45:00] <micges> automata: it seems so
[18:46:36] <PCW> Yes it has a minimal target only PCI core
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[18:52:48] <Danimal_garage> yawn
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[18:56:17] <andypugh> PCW: did the version of the 5i25 patch that I sent to you function? (It worked fine with a 5i23, inasmuch as it didn't break that driver)
[18:58:03] <PCW> I will try it now...
[18:58:53] <andypugh> Would a relay rated at 110VDC/10A be OK to _make_ a 400VDC connection, if the _break_ voltage was zero?
[19:00:56] <automata> PCW: so it cannot do step generation??? not even for 3 Axes??
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[19:03:08] <Danimal_garage> man, this flickr companion app sucks, it crashes every time i try to upload something
[19:03:44] <andypugh> automata: Yes, it does step generation.
[19:03:59] <andypugh> That's rather the point.
[19:04:33] <automata> so, it is a viable replacement for a 7i43 on boards without a parallel port
[19:04:59] <automata> without going to the much more capable(ecpensive) 5i20
[19:05:09] <andypugh> It's designed to plug into DB25 stepper drives, like the Gecko540, and act like a super-fast parallel port, doing the step/PWM in the FPGA.
[19:06:04] <automata> hostmot2 compatible yet?
[19:06:47] <andypugh> It works with the EMC2 Hostmot2 driver on at least one machine, and probably mine too.
[19:07:47] <automata> Wow... when can I get me one...
[19:08:41] <automata> best part.. low profile PCI... so it is compatible with small enclosures that you get on Atom boards...
[19:08:49] <andypugh> I would hold on for a few days until we decide that the patch is ready for inclusion in mainline EMC2
[19:09:06] <Tom_itx> is that the latest pci card?
[19:09:42] <automata> It will take me a few weeks to get it shipped out to India..
[19:10:11] <automata> Also, I would like to assist with development and testing...
[19:11:03] <andypugh> Tom_itx: One of them. Pete has beeb busy
[19:11:04] <automata> I code C/C++ and VHDL + python ... fairly well...
[19:11:34] <automata> it seems PCW has been really busy lately!!!
[19:12:09] <automata> The dual parallel port also seems to be nice touch....
[19:12:15] <andypugh> Hopefully all the C code driver changes are done, but the VHDL probably means that you can build your own firmwares for the card to do exactly what you want.
[19:13:18] <automata> Well I have written some fairly intricate (But small) VHDL components. But nothing of the order of a PCI controller!!!
[19:13:25] <andypugh> automata: You might find the README here interesting: http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=hostmot2-firmware.git;a=tree;h=8aac18619d652b3845e5c6043b55fdc98f30a064;hb=8aac18619d652b3845e5c6043b55fdc98f30a064
[19:14:51] <automata> It seems that the PCI controller is also included in the firmware running on the FPGA..
[19:15:49] <PCW> Yes its our latest PCI card (well theres a 5I24 coming and a 6I25 (PCIE))
[19:16:27] <micges> what will 6i25 have?
[19:17:03] <PCW> Same as 5I25 but PCIE probably $10.00 more
[19:17:33] <PCW> 5I24 is like 5I20 (3 connectors) but PCI core in FPGA so cheaper
[19:18:02] <automata> PCW: This is great news
[19:18:41] <PCW> Disadvantage of bridgeless devices is you can be in a word of pain if you botch a firmware upgrade
[19:18:53] <automata> I would love to assist with the emc2 integration for 5i24
[19:19:34] <micges> PCW: any easy solution for that?
[19:19:37] <automata> Yes that would really suck...
[19:20:24] <automata> But The firmware can be programmed on the on board CPLD using a JTAG interface...
[19:20:48] <automata> So that is where the USB-JTAG can come in.
[19:21:12] <automata> Also these cards should not load the firmware at runtime.
[19:21:49] <PCW> Ive got the dual boot stuff working so if you crash or power down during an upgrade it will boot into the fallback config
[19:22:27] <PCW> but if you load an otherwise OK bitfile that doesn't work, you are screwed
[19:23:19] <PCW> Probably on a fancier card I would have two EEPROMS with a jumper to select which was the boot EEPROM
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[19:23:38] <automata> Well then it will be time for JTAG programmer...
[19:24:02] <PCW> Yep bearskins and stone knives
[19:24:10] <automata> I guess two EEPROMs also makes sense...
[19:24:29] <Danimal_garage> some pics of the new z axis on my cnc engraver http://www.flickr.com/photos/66828621@N02/sets/72157627400301803/
[19:25:44] <PCW> Andy so how do I apply that patch?
[19:27:23] <automata> Damimal_garage: nice setup. What is make and model of the engraver?
[19:30:41] <Danimal_garage> thanks. it's a former inkjet printer made by Jet or something like that. i just built a new z axis for it and put a router for a spindle so i can use it for engraving and set it up to run on EMC2
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[19:31:08] <Danimal_garage> it's a 3 axis, servo driven
[19:31:27] <automata> Cool...
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[19:33:22] <Danimal_garage> i also made the tooling plate for it
[19:34:10] <Tom_itx> what did the slides run ?
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[19:36:01] <Tom_itx> PCW where do you get older versions of xilinx ise?
[19:36:36] <Tom_itx> i installed the latest thinking it would be best but apparently not
[19:36:55] <Danimal_garage> i got the pair for $111.50 shipped on ebay
[19:37:17] <Danimal_garage> new
[19:37:30] <Tom_itx> PCW, nevermind, i found the archive
[19:38:34] <PCW> Its available from Xilinx(google; ISE classics) . I still use 9.2 for most things except SP6
[19:38:39] <mikegg> I just installed 9.2 last night
[19:39:06] <Tom_itx> it's also under their support/download pages
[19:39:06] <mikegg> I had to dig up an old version of libstdc++5 to get it to go
[19:39:11] <PCW> They have gradually broken most of the feature of the editor in later versions
[19:40:10] <Danimal_garage> didn't think it was a bad price for 2 15mm rails and 4 bearings
[19:40:15] <PCW> features (like rectangular block cut/paste)
[19:40:24] <Tom_itx> what's the difference between foundation and foundation webpack?
[19:40:51] <PCW> foundation is paid?
[19:41:00] <Tom_itx> oh
[19:41:08] <Tom_itx> even on the archives?
[19:41:20] <PCW> Not sure
[19:42:40] <mikegg> Tom: I installed the ISE Foundation Full Product Installation (2.7gb)
[19:43:06] <mikegg> if that helps. Not sure what the Webpack is either
[19:45:16] <Tom_itx> did it run ok without registering it?
[19:45:59] <mikegg> you have to request a (free) registration number which they will email to you
[19:47:04] <mikegg> on the right "Obtain a registration ID"
[19:47:13] <Tom_itx> i saw that
[19:49:59] <PCW> Andy: looks fine:
[19:50:01] <PCW> [ 2340.306010] hm2: loading Mesa HostMot2 driver version 0.15
[19:50:02] <PCW> [ 2340.309341] hm2_pci: loading Mesa AnyIO HostMot2 driver version 0.7
[19:50:04] <PCW> [ 2340.309581] ACPI: PCI Interrupt Link [LNKA] enabled at IRQ 11
[19:50:05] <PCW> [ 2340.309586] hm2_pci 0000:01:07.0: PCI INT A -> Link[LNKA] -> GSI 11 (level, low) -> IRQ 11
[19:50:07] <PCW> [ 2340.309591] hm2_pci: discovered 5i25 at 0000:01:07.0
[19:50:08] <PCW> [ 2340.309733] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: Smart Serial Firmware Version 25
[19:50:10] <PCW> [ 2340.344756] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: 34 I/O Pins used:
[19:50:11] <PCW> [ 2340.344760] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 000 (P3-01): StepGen #0, pin Direction (Output)
[19:50:13] <PCW> [ 2340.344764] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 001 (P3-14): StepGen #0, pin Step (Output)
[19:50:15] <PCW> [ 2340.344767] hm2/hm2_5i25.0: IO Pin 002 (P3-02): StepGen #1, pin Direction (Out
[19:50:16] <PCW> etc etc
[19:51:39] <Danimal_garage> hmm that's funny, i never see etc etc in my dmesg
[19:51:57] <PCW> New feature
[19:52:13] <Danimal_garage> sweet
[19:52:54] <Danimal_garage> i need to beef up the desk the engraver is on, it rocks pretty violently when the y axis moves
[19:53:10] <Danimal_garage> i figure i'll just make some 2x4 legs for it :)
[19:54:28] <Tom_itx> 2" square tubing
[19:54:45] <Danimal_garage> i don't really want to weld over the carpet
[19:54:46] <Tom_itx> like JT-Shop's heater stand
[19:55:14] <Danimal_garage> i had to put the engraver in my spare bedroom, had no room in the shop
[19:58:31] <Tom_itx> PCW, do you need to install all service packs or just the last one?
[19:58:33] <andypugh> PCW: Save the email as a file, then use git am {filename}
[19:58:51] <Tom_itx> sp1..4
[19:58:57] <Tom_itx> on 9.2
[19:59:06] <PCW> already done (see above) works fine
[20:00:33] <andypugh> Excellent.
[20:00:48] <PCW> Let me see what patch level my 9.2 is
[20:00:50] <PCW> Hmm all it says is 9.202i
[20:01:20] <Tom_itx> maybe sp2?
[20:01:31] <PCW> even the funny pinout works
[20:02:14] <Tom_itx> by their naming convention i would say you have sp2
[20:02:45] <JT-Shop> what, my heater stand?
[20:03:04] <PCW> back in he mists of time I'm afraid, don't even remember if i patched it
[20:03:10] <Tom_itx> Danimal_garage want's to make a whimpy stand and i suggested a beefier one
[20:07:05] <JT-Shop> Danimal_garage: the Z looks beefy now :)
[20:07:41] <automata> PCW: So 5i25 is working now with hostmot2?
[20:07:54] <PCW> Yep
[20:07:56] <automata> PCW: when do we expect 5i24?
[20:07:58] <Tom_itx> hurah
[20:08:20] <PCW> when I lose my MDD
[20:08:42] <automata> Can I order 5i25 now and place a 5i24 on pre-order?
[20:09:35] <automata> MDD??
[20:10:02] <PCW> Motivational Defficiency Disorder
[20:10:11] <automata> ha
[20:10:57] <automata> Will you be shipping 5i25 with a low profile mount or a full profile mount?
[20:10:58] * JT-Shop tries to remember that one.... no use forgot already
[20:11:10] <PCW> Actually that come from a satire on drug companies disease mongering
[20:11:16] <PCW> comes
[20:12:20] <PCW> We are still looking for low profile brackets so probably stuck with standartd profile for first 50 or so cards
[20:13:20] <JT-Shop> I must be sick, I'm planting grass that I will have to mow...
[20:13:41] <Tom_itx> be sure to water an fertilize it
[20:13:46] <Tom_itx> lots
[20:14:46] <automata> http://bracket.com/Brackets.html
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[20:16:03] <PCW> Yea but those are way too expensive for us
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[20:16:39] <Tom_itx> get em direct from china
[20:16:52] <Tom_itx> talk to wormfood in #avr about hookin you up
[20:17:26] <PCW> The standard ones we get from Taiwan (I think $.46)
[20:18:06] <Tom_itx> he lives there and shops the markets
[20:18:37] <PCW> OK
[20:22:54] <Danimal_garage> JT-Shop: it's about as beefy as the x and y
[20:23:02] <Danimal_garage> same sized linear rails
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[20:33:09] <Jymmm> Any tips in drilling a hole (straight) into the end of a 4ft piece of stock?
[20:33:38] <andypugh> Jymmm: Lathe
[20:33:53] <Jymmm> andypugh: Not so lucky to have one.
[20:34:01] <Jymmm> and the stock is square
[20:34:09] <andypugh> Lathes don't care
[20:34:27] <andypugh> What do you have?
[20:34:35] <andypugh> Pllar drill?
[20:34:45] <Jymmm> bench drill press, hand drill
[20:35:02] <andypugh> Does the drill press table rotate to vertical?
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[20:35:21] <Jymmm> yes, but not 4ft tall
[20:35:39] <andypugh> (I am assuming you had the common sense to mount it on the bench such that the chuck is over the edge?
[20:36:01] <Danimal_garage> probably not
[20:36:08] <andypugh> Do you care what size hole?
[20:36:17] <Jymmm> Yes, 1/8"
[20:37:10] <andypugh> Drill a 1/8" hole in a short length of something using the drill press. Then clamp that to the end of the long bit and use the hand drill.
[20:37:34] <andypugh> Or, just use skill
[20:37:37] <Jymmm> andypugh: That's an idea, thanks.
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[20:38:23] <Danimal_garage> Jymmm: does the head of your drillpress rotate away from the base?
[20:38:32] <Jymmm> You know, I have enough call for end drilling, that I need to come up with some fixture to do this more often.
[20:38:40] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: It can but a PITA
[20:39:30] <Jymmm> I wonder if I can find a chuck to mount in a fixture
[20:40:29] <Danimal_garage> clamp a v block to the drill press to hold the stock square and swing the head out
[20:41:30] <Danimal_garage> do industrial laser engravers have a life span to be concerned about?
[20:41:42] <Danimal_garage> there's a big OLD laser engraver at the surplus yard
[20:41:52] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: CO2 or YAG ?
[20:41:57] <Danimal_garage> wondering if it would be worth grabbing
[20:42:10] <Danimal_garage> i don't know, it's got a big long tube on the top
[20:42:22] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: pic?
[20:42:26] <Danimal_garage> no
[20:42:38] <Danimal_garage> it's been sitting outside for a while
[20:42:44] <Connor> I've had my drill press head 180 degrees.. and it's on a nice platform.
[20:42:58] <Connor> So, using V-Block and clamps, you could do something like that and drill it.
[20:43:20] <Danimal_garage> thought about grabbing it and making the xyx work with emc
[20:43:32] <Danimal_garage> i don't know the first thing about lasers though
[20:43:45] <Danimal_garage> it's got a big radiator on the back
[20:43:53] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: There are two types when it comes to CO2, sealed and not sealed. If it's sealed it needs to be rechraged every x number of years. If unselaed, it needs gas tanks
[20:43:53] <Danimal_garage> must be water cooled
[20:44:14] <Danimal_garage> is it easy ot recharge?
[20:44:18] <Jymmm> usually 4 types of gases
[20:44:33] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: No, you have to send it some place to get refurbed.
[20:44:34] <automata> PCW: Does the 5i25 have CPLD to store the firmware...
[20:44:49] <Danimal_garage> is that generally expensive?
[20:45:00] <automata> i.e., not to require re-loading it everytime on startup...
[20:45:13] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: But, if you want to retrofit it for emc, you can get tubes fro china
[20:45:29] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: If it's domestic, yes very expensive.
[20:45:49] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: $600 and up
[20:46:13] <mrsunshine> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUt3P2_lfm0&feature=feedrec_grec_index cool lathe thingie =)
[20:46:26] <Danimal_garage> arent the tubes pretty pricey, even from china?
[20:46:34] <Danimal_garage> this is a pretty big tube i think
[20:46:38] <andypugh> Jymmm: You could just drill it by eye, with the hand drill. That is how I did this (and was proud enough of the fact to take two photos) https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs?gsessionid=q7J-C3EcQ_IK7Tag4HW-Tg#5645268349766191922
[20:46:48] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: To get my (domestic) laser tube refurbed is $1200
[20:46:56] <Danimal_garage> ouch
[20:46:58] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: From china, nah.
[20:47:31] <Danimal_garage> are they pretty easy to retrofit with a chinese one?
[20:47:34] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: But *MY* refurbed tube comes with a new RF exciter and waranty
[20:48:46] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: China tubes are nothing more than a glass tube you attache to a RF Power supply then to a controller
[20:49:09] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: the RF PS uses PWM usually
[20:49:17] <Danimal_garage> i know it's probably hard to say without seeing it, but would you mess with it, or pass on it? given that it's been sitting outside (granted, in san diego), and is probably 30 years old?
[20:49:52] <andypugh> It's a frikin' laser beam! Of course I would have it!
[20:49:58] <Danimal_garage> lol
[20:50:04] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: 30 years? so since 1980's.... The biggest thing is the optics.
[20:50:15] <Danimal_garage> i bet i can get it for little to nothing
[20:50:20] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: how much?
[20:50:32] <Danimal_garage> havent asked, but i'm sure very cheap
[20:50:39] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: guess
[20:50:41] <Danimal_garage> maybe 100
[20:50:48] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: and whats the travel on it?
[20:51:11] <Jymmm> and what wattage?
[20:51:32] <Danimal_garage> looks like it has an approx 12x12 table, which is weird since the machine is like 6' long, 4-5 feet tall, and a couple feed deep
[20:51:40] <Danimal_garage> didn't look at it too much
[20:51:57] <Danimal_garage> the tube is probably several feet long maybe?
[20:52:14] <Danimal_garage> from what i can see
[20:52:15] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: Did it have a controller?
[20:52:35] <Danimal_garage> i dont know, looked like a bunch of knobs and switches
[20:52:50] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: What do you think it was used for? metal? steel? plastic?
[20:52:54] <Danimal_garage> i think it might have had a stand-alone controler maybe? i didnt see it there
[20:53:00] <Danimal_garage> probably metal
[20:53:18] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: power connections? 110? 220? 220p3 ?
[20:53:30] <Danimal_garage> didn't really look into it that much
[20:53:33] <Jymmm> lol
[20:54:15] <Jymmm> Well, unless it had some useful parts, or you have pics, I'd probably pass. Unless you want todo steel, then I'd look into it further.
[20:54:30] <Danimal_garage> i do want to do steel and ti
[20:54:40] <Jymmm> China co2 laser tubes do NOT do steel
[20:54:48] <Jymmm> you need a YaG laser for metals
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[20:55:15] <Jymmm> Yag 50W will do metal, 2000W Co2 will do metal.
[20:55:24] <Danimal_garage> ah
[20:55:36] <Danimal_garage> no point if it won't do steel or ti
[20:55:48] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: cut or mark metal?
[20:55:52] <Jymmm> engrave?
[20:55:54] <Danimal_garage> mark
[20:55:56] <Danimal_garage> yes
[20:56:08] <Jymmm> jewelery?
[20:56:14] <Danimal_garage> bike parts
[20:56:24] <andypugh> Neutron-pumped X-ray laser works on steel too, but is one-shot and turns the surrounding area into a glassy crater.
[20:56:53] <Danimal_garage> andypugh: i save those for my super hero suits
[20:57:00] <Connor> okay, question guys, I can rotate my head on my G0704 90 degrees and make it like a lathe, Any ideas on how to align the Y and Z axis to be dead center to the spindle?
[20:57:02] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: There is one laser that will mark on Ti, but it aint cheap.
[20:57:24] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: iirc ~ $15K+
[20:57:27] <Danimal_garage> ouch
[20:57:35] <Danimal_garage> forget it, i'll just engrave lol
[20:57:50] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: annodized is easy for a laser
[20:58:28] <Danimal_garage> yea, not worth it if i cant do my ti stuff as well
[20:58:38] <Danimal_garage> well thanks for the info, lunch time for me
[20:59:46] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: you wanna see some ti engraved samples?
[21:00:24] <andypugh> Connor: It probably doesn't need to be.
[21:00:44] <Connor> andypugh: ? Why, I want to use it like a lathe...
[21:01:26] <Connor> First think I want to do is center drill the part..
[21:01:30] <andypugh> All that matters with a lathe is that the Z axis is parallel to the spindle axis. And if that isn't the case with your mill, it's broken.
[21:01:32] <Connor> then.. turn it down a few .001's
[21:02:11] <Connor> Well.. lathes have end stocks, which when locked down on the lathe.. are centered with the chuck...
[21:02:14] <archivist> no need to rotate the head, just mount the tooling sensibly
[21:02:25] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: titanium ring engraved using a Yag Laser... http://i51.tinypic.com/2zfsqzd.jpg
[21:02:57] <Connor> Well.. the Z-Axis is much harder to manually crank up and down than the X or Y.. :)
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[21:03:43] <andypugh> Have you seen the Tormach Duality lathe? It bolts to the bed, and you mount the tool on your Z.
[21:03:45] <andypugh> http://www.tormach.com/Product_PCNC_lathe2.html
[21:04:40] <andypugh> Connor: I don't think you can use a tailstock in your proposed arrangement. What are you going to mount it to?
[21:04:53] <Jymmm> andypugh: I like your jig idea. I already have a jig I made up a ways back for wide edge drilling, I can just add a angle to it for end drilling.
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[21:05:48] <Connor> Well.. center drill the stock.. I did this once using standard drill chuck in spindle, and used V-Blocks.. finding dead center of the round stock was a pain.
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[21:05:56] <andypugh> I make a lot of jigs. I used one on wednesday to guide a drill to drill out a thread in an absolutely irreplacable engine block.
[21:06:32] <Connor> I need to make 4 more stand-off's.. so, I planed on cutting them a bit longger, center drilling them, then turning them down a few .001's
[21:06:45] <Connor> and then cut them to finial length.
[21:07:04] <Jymmm> andypugh: What I need to find is a chuck that I can mount in a fixture (with bearings) then drive it using a real drill or motor.
[21:07:06] <Connor> and this is all on manual mill.
[21:07:13] <archivist> there was a nice video on youtube of lathe work on a normal 3 axix cnc mill
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[21:07:39] <JT-Shop> why is the od critical on a standoff?
[21:07:41] <andypugh> What are you going to bolt the tailstock to? And what are you going to bolt the tool to? The answer can't be "the table" to both questions.
[21:07:53] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: shorting out traces?
[21:07:56] <JT-Shop> LOL
[21:08:08] <JT-Shop> dunno
[21:08:43] <JT-Shop> I think purdy perhaps
[21:08:59] <Jymmm> andypugh: I bench top
[21:09:03] <Jymmm> a bench top
[21:09:06] <Connor> andypugh: Table moves, head doesn't. Tool holder on table holding the drill bit or lathe tool.. for the drill bit part.. I need it centered on the Z and Y axis.. and I'll use the X axis to advance the drill bit into the stock.
[21:09:51] * Jymmm needs a horizontal drill press with a long feed table!
[21:10:02] <automata> has anybody tried absolute jog function? NML message number 126
[21:10:04] <andypugh> For that alignment, fasten a DTI to the milling spindle, and clock round the drill bit.
[21:10:14] <Connor> or, not rotate the head, and then both the X and Y have to be centered on the stock.. and use Z to advance ...
[21:11:34] <Connor> I tried that.. but, some how that didn't work.. the DTI wasn't centered with the spindle itself.. have any video's of that process ?
[21:11:41] <andypugh> automata: I doubt that many of us have ever used an NML message.
[21:13:27] <automata> I have coded it into shcom.cc and now it can be accessed from emcrsh.cc
[21:13:39] <automata> and I can issue abs jog commands...
[21:13:47] <automata> from a remote interface..
[21:14:25] <automata> How do I submit a patch for this?
[21:15:00] <automata> I have also started coding an update channel that provides updates for the machine on a telnet channel...
[21:15:37] <automata> including current position at regular intervals...
[21:16:00] <automata> would there be any interest in this sort of work?
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[21:16:31] <automata> I now have a proof of concept client running over the network....
[21:16:41] <automata> It could be local too...
[21:16:50] <automata> but just going over the network..
[21:17:00] <automata> network interface...
[21:17:31] <andypugh> if it doesn't break anything, and might be useful, then send an email to the developers mailing list. https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers
[21:17:52] <automata> This approach can assist in developing new GUI's without the burden of learning NML/RCS etc...
[21:18:07] <automata> will do that...
[21:18:42] <automata> That was the purpose of emcrsh.cc (I believe)...
[21:19:35] <JT-Shop> cradek_: does your JR have encoders with funny labeling like M(TG) or ATX?
[21:20:14] <automata> The NML documentation in the Developers manual says that the message is not used, only read. But emctaskmain seems to be listening for this message...
[21:20:22] <andypugh> He's got a lot of HAL to write.
[21:20:43] <JT-Shop> schmidt?
[21:20:48] <andypugh> Aye
[21:21:26] <automata> hopefully there are no plans to drop support of obsoleted NML messages...
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[21:30:59] <andypugh> You are assuming that there are plans at all.
[21:33:05] <Danimal_garage> man i really don't feel like working today...
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[21:34:05] <automata> I am assuming that we are all together in the battle against code bloat!!
[21:34:09] <automata> haha
[21:39:46] <Danimal_garage> I only fight in the battle of who could care less :)
[21:40:56] <Danimal_garage> and the battle of where in the hell did i put my tape measure
[21:41:12] <Jymmm> Danimal_garage: in your left hand
[21:41:42] <Danimal_garage> i found it, it was on my bridgeport
[21:50:05] <frysteev> Danimal_garage: thats why i have multiples of everything i can potentially lose
[21:50:31] <frysteev> things over 100 lbs i seldom lose, more just lose place of where they are, or whats on otp of them
[21:51:08] <Danimal_garage> i lose the extras
[21:52:05] <frysteev> like why i have a ton of extre grinder wrechnes
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[21:54:33] <andypugh> I just grab the cutting disc and twist.
[21:54:54] <frysteev> doesnt ever work for me,
[21:54:56] <andypugh> Because I have no more than one pin spanner.
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[21:56:30] <andypugh> I want a 24/12/5V Power supply, and can't seem to find one at the price I want to pay
[21:56:52] <andypugh> I have not had any luck using PC supplies in the past.
[21:57:35] <andypugh> Though as there is a PC in the box this time, it might not be a stupid idea.
[21:58:02] <automata> andypugh: 12/5 from ATX supply and a separate 24V SMPS...
[21:58:24] <andypugh> Isn't there a -12?
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[21:59:13] <Jymmm> Yes, but not isolated
[21:59:34] <mikegg> andypugh: I got both X and Y working the other night using just cfg = h
[21:59:48] <andypugh> cfg=h is the easiest.
[21:59:51] <ds3> has anyone made a single spline inside a 1/4" diameter tube?
[22:00:22] <andypugh> I have cut a keyway in a hole approx that size.
[22:00:26] <mikegg> I had the right pattern, it was masked by poor tune and not having 3pwmgen.scale right
[22:00:31] <ds3> what do you use?
[22:00:36] <ds3> s/do/did/
[22:00:49] <andypugh> A CNC lathe, with the spindle locked.
[22:01:08] <ds3> off the shelf tool or did you grind it?
[22:01:24] <andypugh> Ground up a bit of tool steel
[22:01:43] <ds3> I see. which does does it cut? on entry or on exit?
[22:02:03] <andypugh> Entry. Exit might be better.
[22:02:11] <mikegg> like an old keyway broach?
[22:02:39] <andypugh> Not exactly, as I single-point it with tiny cuts.
[22:02:49] <ds3> trying to visualize how that tool looks....
[22:03:09] <andypugh> In, out, feed 0.01mm, in, out, feed 0.01mm
[22:03:09] <ds3> so it is kind of like a tiny, narrow, shovel going in?
[22:03:41] <andypugh> More like a parting tool, held horizontally, at a slight angle.
[22:04:30] <ds3> ah, minimal rake (I think that's the term)?
[22:04:41] <andypugh> Want me to set it up and take a photo?
[22:05:27] <andypugh> Might be easier to describe. Imagine you were grinding up a cold chisel to cut a keyway, what would it look like?
[22:05:30] <ds3> nah... just thinking how viable it is to build a vinyl cutter head for the mill
[22:05:43] <automata> You could get 2 ATX supplies and generate a separate 24 from +12 and -12
[22:05:56] <andypugh> Why do you need a spline for that?
[22:06:03] <Jymmm> ds3: like vinyl adhesive signage?
[22:06:07] <ds3> I think I got it fromyou side ways parting tool
[22:06:11] <automata> though the wattage on the + 12 and -12 lines is usually different...
[22:06:12] <ds3> Jymmm: yes
[22:06:19] <Jymmm> ds3: use a drag knife
[22:06:31] <ds3> andypugh: I don't want it to turn against the spring loading it
[22:06:48] <ds3> Jymmm: how so? I want to cut things defined on a computer
[22:06:52] <andypugh> automata: I already have a 10A 12V (and that runs the PC too). I need to sort out what I actually need.
[22:07:08] <Jymmm> ds3: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/printing_scanners_vinyl_cutting_plotters/647-how_homebrew_drag_knife_vinyl.html
[22:07:19] <ds3> Jymmm: let me re-answer... the tool is like the vinyl signage stuff but what I want to cut is actually adhesive copper foil
[22:07:20] <andypugh> Indeed, my CNC vinyl cutter uses a drag knife
[22:07:49] <Jymmm> ds3: unless the foil is 5mm, sure =)
[22:07:52] <andypugh> Use a drag knife and multiple passes.
[22:08:10] <ds3> ah yes, that is basically what I am evaluating how to put together
[22:08:36] <ds3> collet clamped inside the spindle (uses the spindle bearings) and spring loaded downwards
[22:09:24] <andypugh> I think I just bought a drag-knife from eBay and made a holder.
[22:09:39] <Jymmm> ds3: http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com/vinyl.htm
[22:09:45] <andypugh> ds3: Where are you?
[22:10:00] <ds3> andypugh: California
[22:10:55] <andypugh> Good heavens! Somebody is having a laugh! http://www.ebay.com/itm/CNC-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-/220720188298
[22:10:57] <Jymmm> ds3: even has drawings
[22:10:58] <ds3> andypugh: that's what I started with but I was hoping to avoid having to locate bearings by using the spindle bearings
[22:11:12] <ds3> Jymmm: know a local bearing shop? :D
[22:11:24] <ds3> trying not to drown in shipping charges
[22:11:29] <Jymmm> local, as in California =)
[22:11:39] <ds3> local as in SF bay area :P
[22:11:40] <andypugh> ds3: You want to use tiny little bearings. spindle bearings will be _far_ too draggy
[22:11:45] <Jymmm> ds3: VBX bearings, cheap
[22:11:52] <Jymmm> ds3: on ebay too
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[22:12:09] <ds3> andypugh: Hmmm. I will have to reconsider what I am thinking then
[22:12:20] <ds3> Jymmm: VBX is a store or?
[22:12:22] <Jymmm> ds3: Actually, yes I do.... RC Hobby shops
[22:12:39] <Jymmm> ds3: they have those tiny ass bearings
[22:12:44] <ds3> Jymmm: and which one is still open? they are dying faster then flys
[22:12:47] <andypugh> Here are suitable blades: http://www.ebay.com/itm/6pcs-45-pcut-blade-plotter-vinyl-cutter-pcut-knife-bit-/150567270844?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item230e8239bc#ht_818wt_1026
[22:13:15] <Jymmm> ds3: Camden and Union in the Cambrian shopping center
[22:13:46] <Jymmm> ds3: There's also one on Meridian south south of Hamilton in the same shopping center as Burger King
[22:13:52] <andypugh> They pivot on the point, you might not even technically need a bearing. However, I used a little ball-bearing.
[22:14:22] <Jymmm> ds3: D&J Hobby in Campbel, and a hobby shop in MtView
[22:14:52] <Jymmm> ds3: Try Camden and Union first as they do RC cars and planes, then Meridian
[22:15:06] <ds3> Jymmm: the Mt View one closed
[22:15:24] <Jymmm> that sucks
[22:15:39] <ds3> Jymmm: I think the Camden and Union is closed too. this is the place with the dollar tree and the big yellow sign
[22:15:49] <Jymmm> ds3: Nope, they're open.
[22:15:50] <andypugh> My bearing came from: http://www.modelfixings.co.uk/Heli%20cylindrical.htm
[22:15:57] <andypugh> But that is not much help for you
[22:15:58] <automata> andypugh: what cam software do you use for the dragknife? is the drag knife on a 4th rotary axis?
[22:16:00] <ds3> Jymmm: hmmmm
[22:16:17] <ds3> Jymmm: isn't that the place that used to have the slot car tracks?
[22:16:19] <Jymmm> ds3: are you SURE the mtview is closed?
[22:16:29] <andypugh> I wrote my own software to slice an STL file.
[22:16:34] <Jymmm> ds3: Yes, it's open
[22:16:34] <ds3> Jymmm: you are refering to that huge one next to sears in the mall with the walmart, right?
[22:16:43] <Jymmm> ds3: yeah, in the corner
[22:17:00] <ds3> Jymmm: we must be talking about a different one.. .the one I know of there is closed...maybe they moved?
[22:17:04] <automata> andypugh: Is the drag knife on a rotary axis?
[22:17:16] <ds3> Jymmm: yeah, that's the one in Mtview that closed a while ago
[22:17:38] <andypugh> No, it just follows the cut like a castor. The cutting point is slightly off-centre
[22:17:39] <Jymmm> http://www.rcunlimited.net/
[22:18:15] <automata> ok.. I had made a ultrasonic knife attachment for cutting foam board
[22:18:32] <automata> The Cam was a B***CH
[22:18:34] <Jymmm> ds3: http://local.yahoo.com/CA/San+Jose/Recreation+Sporting+Goods/Hobbies/Hobby+Shops
[22:18:41] <andypugh> The application was this: https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/Gibbs#5478341215134773746
[22:19:20] <Jymmm> ds3: I forgot about hobbytown on Blossom Hill
[22:19:40] <ds3> Jymmm: blossom hill one is closed
[22:19:45] <andypugh> My first foray into CNC/RP. Those are components modelled in CAD, then cut out of several layers of sticker-paper, using a flatbed plotter and my own software (written in Octave)
[22:20:02] <ds3> Jymmm: I will look for the RC unlimited again.
[22:20:05] <andypugh> Then those were sent off to a foundry, and cast in brass.
[22:22:07] <andypugh> They are brackets to hole panniers on my bike. (There is some wierd distortion in this picture, they don't actually protrude behind the number-plate reflector that you can see) http://atp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/R1_luggage.jpg
[22:23:45] <Jymmm> ds3: Left of the BLUE sign on the bldg furthest back... http://maps.google.com/maps?q=14918+Camden+Ave,+San+Jose,+CA+95124&hl=en&ll=37.261659,-121.929627&spn=0.000496,0.000644&sll=37.399755,-121.902065&sspn=0.088368,0.160675&om=1&t=h&z=21&vpsrc=6&layer=c&cbll=37.261659,-121.929627&panoid=HuqE-49Mt_Td5_7ZbdaoVQ&cbp=12,168.43,,1,0.15
[22:24:22] <Jymmm> ds3: white sign says "Hobby Shop", blue sign says "Quilt Shop"
[22:26:17] <Jymmm> ds3: Go FULL SCREEN (top right corner of photo) to get a better view
[22:26:28] <ds3> Jymmm: hmm... they moved or changed something... it used to be in that corridor near the bowling alley
[22:26:45] <Jymmm> ds3: they've been there for years
[22:27:13] <Jymmm> ds3: it is right next to the bwling alley though
[22:27:14] <andypugh> ds3: I have a spare blade, and a spare bearing. Do you have the equipment to make the rest?
[22:27:39] <ds3> andypugh: equipment sure... time... that's the big unknown
[22:28:05] <ds3> andypugh: the alternative is to hack up a cricut
[22:28:07] <Jymmm> ds3: http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com/images/Vinly/Weighted/smalltaus1.jpg
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[22:29:34] <ds3> Jymmm: that looks nice and simple
[22:29:39] <andypugh> ds3: Only drawback, I am in the UK
[22:29:51] <ds3> andypugh: I know
[22:30:09] <Jymmm> ds3: that pic is from here (which I gave you the link to a ways back, but I dont think you looked) http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com/vinyl.htm
[22:31:06] <YK_> andypugh: Now that I understand what the mesa 7i43 does, I'd like to confirm the hardware connections I have here
[22:32:05] <andypugh> ds3: Actually, that page looks like exactly what I did. I actually made the holder quite large in the nose, and then set the blade protrusion just right to not cut through the backing.
[22:32:11] <ds3> Jymmm: I did looked at it... try 5 is what he says work
[22:32:37] <Jymmm> k
[22:32:52] <ds3> I just wonder if it is cheaper and quicker to hack up a cricut
[22:33:08] <ds3> as cheap as $60 for a complete unit
[22:33:33] <Jymmm> ds3: you cant use your own drawings on a cricut asaik
[22:33:42] <Jymmm> afaik
[22:33:52] <ds3> Jymmm: there are hacks to allow it to cut svgs
[22:33:57] <Jymmm> k
[22:34:14] <ds3> just donno how good those hacks are
[22:34:16] <PCW> andy freeby.mesanet.com/i237i49.bit
[22:35:14] <andypugh> Thanks PCW
[22:36:17] <andypugh> ds3: Do you have spindle-angle control? And you still need to hold the blade.
[22:40:00] <andypugh> YK_: OK
[22:40:23] <andypugh> (involved in too many conversations)
[22:41:27] <YK_> andypugh: So starting from the computer, we have the emc2 software, the HAL file, and the configuration for the PID card (mesa 7i43). Is this everything or is something missing?
[22:41:52] <YK_> andypugh: software-wise)
[22:42:15] <SWPadnos> the 7i43 doesn't do PID, that's done in the realtime software on the PC
[22:43:06] <YK_> Ah ok, so those are separate. So please ignore the "PID card" phrase and just have that section as the mesa 7i43 FPGA
[22:43:10] <andypugh> Yes, the 7i43 does PWM and step generation, the very fast stuff. PID tends to run at 1mS rate in software.
[22:43:29] <SWPadnos> but the hardware connections you mentioned are correct. the emc2 software commands the 7i43 to do things, based on the configuration described in the HAL file
[22:44:33] <YK_> So to confirm, software-wise, it's just the emc2 program, HAL file, and Mesa 7i43 config?
[22:44:48] <YK_> No ini files or anything like that required?
[22:44:58] <SWPadnos> there are ini files
[22:45:23] <SWPadnos> emc2 is a collection of programs
[22:45:26] <andypugh> But they are not needed :-)
[22:45:51] <SWPadnos> the ini and HAL files are used to create a configuration for your hardware (both PC hardware and your machine)
[22:46:00] <SWPadnos> yes, ini files are needed
[22:46:03] <andypugh> You _can_ do almost everything in HAL, the INI files are just a handy place where lots of different programs look for information.
[22:47:21] <andypugh> (I have been trying to start a sentence for over a minute)
[22:47:36] <SWPadnos> heh
[22:48:01] <SWPadnos> the thing is, EMC itself (ie, the task controller and RS274 interpreter) look at the ini file for configuration
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[22:48:14] <SWPadnos> all the hardware setup could be done with no ini, including all PID setup
[22:48:41] <andypugh> OK, SWPadnos is correct, you do need INI files. As he said, EMC2 is a collection of programs, and some need info from the INI file. It's nice if they all get the same info, so using the INI file saves ambiguity.
[22:48:42] <SWPadnos> but you can't tell e.g. the trajectory planner that you want a limit of 10 units/second on X without an ini file
[22:48:53] <YK_> Ah, alright. Then afaik, the 4 elements are emc2, HAL file, INI file, and the Mesa 7i43 config. Assuming that to be everything on the software-side--- the computer connects via parport to the Mesa 7i43, then the Mesa can connect to 6 stepper drivers (or 6 prop valves, if they are used), 6 solenoid drivers, and 6 incremental encoders?
[22:49:43] <SWPadnos> that's more or less correct (if you call "a bunch of programs" just "emc2" ;) )
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[22:49:55] <SWPadnos> you should definitely look at the amount of I/O though
[22:49:57] <andypugh> Just to add to the confusion, there are other options than the 7i43, basically a variety of PCI and PCI-e cards.
[22:50:35] <SWPadnos> a 7i43 has two connectors with 24 I/Os each, for a total of 48 I/Os. Encoders each use 3 or 4 (?) pins, or more if they're differential (I think)
[22:50:44] <SWPadnos> PWM or step/dir outputs each use 2 pins
[22:51:00] <SWPadnos> solenoid drivers should be a single output each
[22:51:04] <YK_> To count wires, 12 for step/dir, 6 for PWM, and 18 for A quad B, index --- total 36. (is there a better name I should use for that range of programs?)
[22:51:24] <YK_> PWM uses 2 pins?)
[22:51:41] <SWPadnos> I think so. you need direction as well as magnitude
[22:52:17] <andypugh> Differential encoders can't connect directly, so encoders are always 3 pins. (Actually, you can connect them directly if you don't mind them not being differential any more)
[22:52:17] <YK_> oh, not in my specific case, at least yet- the current plan is to use 2-position solenoid valves so it's effectively on/off :p)
[22:52:36] <SWPadnos> unless you don't, but I'm not sure whether the I/O control is fine-grained enough to allow you to use a single-ended PWM output and use the second pin as a GPIO
[22:52:55] <SWPadnos> well, unless you want to write your own FPGA code, you may have other restrictions :)
[22:53:04] <andypugh> YK_: You need 12 for PWM, as you have PWM + direction for each axis.
[22:53:19] <SWPadnos> andypugh, do they actually use 3, or is there a secondary index input or some such as well?
[22:53:40] <SWPadnos> (I don't recall - it's been a while since I've loaded up a Mesa config, or any config for that matter)
[22:54:06] <YK_> andypugh: Is the direction for PWM still necessary if the solenoid is spring-return?
[22:54:36] <andypugh> Index is a pin on the header. You could use it as GPIO input, though, as long as you never asserted index-latch
[22:55:03] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
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[22:55:25] <SWPadnos> so it's still encoder index, but since you can read any pin you can pretend it isn't
[22:56:01] <SWPadnos> it doesn't matter if it's necessary, what matters is whether there is an option for single-pin PWM output in the standard bitfiles
[22:57:05] <andypugh> Yes. If you enable the encoder, then that pin belongs to the encoder. You can't make it an output, and the encoder module will reset on it if index-enable is high, but apart from that you could use it as an unrelated input. (if desparate)
[22:57:55] <YK_> Ah so that's the case. I see. To cover the last step within hardware, I'd like to know what connectors should be used to connect all these hardware components together. Wires I know that much, but I mean specifically- there should be special connectors for the mesa, for instance- right?
[22:58:18] <SWPadnos> they have either screw terminals or pin headers
[22:58:26] <andypugh> YK_: Yes, because you still need to control the direction your actuator is moving. (Don't just consider physical pins, also consider your degrees of freedom)
[22:58:41] <SWPadnos> spring return
[22:58:52] <SWPadnos> so "no motion" requires some PWM output
[22:59:05] <SWPadnos> which should make scaling and PID "interesting" "_
[22:59:07] <SWPadnos> :)
[22:59:17] <andypugh> Centre-biased PWM is an option. But it's dangerous
[22:59:49] <YK_> (just for curiosity, what is centerbiased pwm?)
[23:00:05] <Tom_itx> also known as LAP if i'm not mistaken
[23:00:10] <SWPadnos> also, the control variable is now position rather than velocity
[23:01:11] <andypugh> SWPadnos: Stepper-position controls actuator-velocity in this proposed setup.
[23:01:46] <SWPadnos> clearly, I don't have the time to read all about it.
[23:02:42] <YK_> Instead of bunching flow control and directional control together, it's separated into stepper-controlled needle valves (or proportional valves) and 2-position solenoid valves (or 3-position), respectively.
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[23:04:39] <YK_> So regarding wires and connectors, from the computer to the Mesa, I infer it's a standard parport connector? I don't know exactly what kind of pin connectors are required from the mesa to the stepdrivers/soldrivers/encoders, though.
[23:05:06] <andypugh> It sounds like a fascinating machine.
[23:05:53] <andypugh> YK_: What's your budget?
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[23:07:12] <YK_> andypugh: I'm trying to keep it under 7k
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[23:07:36] <andypugh> Thing is, the 7i43 is cheap, and it makes for easy wiring sometimes. However, there are PCI cards that do all the same things with rather more output pins and have rather more bandwidth to the PC>
[23:08:49] <mikegg> 7i43 is great if you know that you have a limited scope
[23:08:50] <YK_> andypugh: The first iteration was around 5k, then moving to zero backlash hydraulic motors made it 6200, and now moving to 5 million pulse per revolution encoders will make it 9800, then using proportional valves instead of stepper needle valves will make it 13400...)
[23:09:03] <mikegg> otherwise, go with one of the PCI cards
[23:09:15] <automata> YK_ for 7i43: you cannot use standard parallel cable, you need a DB25 (from parallel port) to IDC 26 (to 7i43) connector...
[23:09:34] <mikegg> 5 million ppr?
[23:09:46] <mikegg> wow, you win :)
[23:10:27] <YK_> automata: Ah that's important specification - thanks~
[23:12:06] <automata> YK_: from 7i43 you have 2 50 Pin headers on IDC 50.
[23:12:14] <andypugh> PCW: You there? SWPadnos has spotted something a bit odd in line 184 and 185 here: http://pastebin.com/kAbuFmB7
[23:13:09] <PCW> Yeah thats as correct as it can be
[23:13:09] <automata> I generally wire the 7i43 50 Pin connectors to a terminal block and then go on further out..
[23:13:54] <andypugh> YK_: The 7i43 is $80. The 5i23 is $229. For that you get PCI connection (much faster, though it is debatable how much use that "faster" is, and an extra 24 IO pins.
[23:14:30] <PCW> Artifact of 32 bit max bus width but 64 I/O bits (all sort of on one connector)
[23:14:45] <YK_> automata: Do you have a link to sources for these terminal blocks? And also the connector that joins the block to the mesa headers?
[23:14:47] <andypugh> OK.
[23:15:14] <PCW> IDROM V4 is needed to sort this out (supports local pins)
[23:16:15] <PCW> also issue with 5I25/4i69 that both have local pins but this is hidden for now
[23:16:42] <YK_> andypugh: Does the 5i23 have the required step/dir, multi-ch pwm gen, quadrature counters? Would a different connector be used than the 7i43 for linking to the computer?
[23:17:22] <PCW> for example 5I25 SPI interface to-config EEPROM is not presented to driver (but ultimately should be)
[23:17:45] <automata> http://www.shavison.com/# Look for FRC/DSUB interface modules... These are real cheap too about US$10-15 for the 50 pin connector...
[23:18:43] <andypugh> YK_: Yes, all the Mesa FPGA cards support all the same functions, though some support rather more instances than others and some have FPGAs too small to contain some of the more exotic functions. However, even the most humble can do stepgen/encode/pwm.
[23:18:47] <automata> The Cable to go between 7i43 and this terminal block is a regular 50 wire FRC cable with FRC female headers on both ends...
[23:20:12] <andypugh> YK_: The PCI cards plug into a PCI port in the computer, and need no input connector. The output connectors are the same as 7i43, but more of them.
[23:21:51] <andypugh> A complication is the new 5i25 which you might have seem PCW and I discussing, which plugs into the PCI port, but has DB25 output. That card is rather like sliding the function of the 7i43 back up into the parallel port card.
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[23:22:49] <andypugh> And it costs the same as a 7i43. Only 34 IO ports, I think, though. (PCW will presumably correct me if I am worng)
[23:23:06] <PCW> Just need to make a EPP module for the 5I25 to complete the confusing possibilities...
[23:23:13] <YK_> andypugh: are PCI ports ubiquitous? What are some solutions to the complication?
[23:25:33] <YK_> Ok, at least there
[23:25:44] <automata> the complication is only in the plethora of choices and limited vocabulary for describing the available choices...
[23:25:55] <andypugh> I am puzzled by the question
[23:26:23] <YK_> is a stable variety of choices that are compatible with the control system requirements.
[23:26:39] <YK_> I am puzzled by PCI ports.)
[23:27:01] <PCW> Main 5I25 advantages are If you dont have a parallel port, it saves one card. plus works with anybodys CNC breakout boards plus is about 12x faster than the 7I43
[23:27:02] <PCW> disadvantage is fewer I/O points
[23:27:22] <jdhNC> what does the 12x speed do in real life?
[23:27:38] <andypugh> Well, I have yet to see a laptop with a full PCI slot, and I know of old computers with ISA instead. But if you buy a moder desktop motherboard it will almost certainly have a PCI slot, and probably won't have a parallel port unless you shopped carefully.
[23:27:54] <PCW> not much for 1KHz loops, eveything for 5KHz loops
[23:28:13] <YK_> PCW: How many IO pins does the 5I25 have?
[23:28:28] <PCW> 34 (just like 2 parallel ports)
[23:29:02] <andypugh> YK_: The PCI slots are those long white thing on the motherboards of PCs, where you plug in graphics cards and the like
[23:29:28] <ds3> wonder if someone makes a cardbus to full size PCI adapter
[23:29:44] <ds3> cardbus is basically PCI w/diff connector
[23:30:16] <YK_> Given the difficulty of arranging PCI slot availability, esp. for laptops, I think the parport option with the 7i43 is the right choice, at least for now. Also esp. because the 5I25 doesn't have enough pins. (ah ok now I understand what PCI meant).
[23:30:54] <Tom_itx> not all laptop parports are created equal
[23:31:06] <jdhNC> would a normal laptop with a 7i43 be ok for a stepper based system? (assuming pport works)
[23:31:22] <andypugh> Laptops rarely give good realtime performance either.
[23:31:34] <PCW> And laptops are not usually a good target for EMC
[23:31:41] <Tom_itx> get a cheap atom board
[23:31:44] <jdhNC> do you need good RT performance if the stepgens are on the 7i43?
[23:31:56] <Tom_itx> i don't regret getting my atom
[23:32:25] <PCW> No it should not be too important with the hardware stepgen
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[23:32:45] <automata> Laptops donot run RTAI very well...
[23:33:10] <andypugh> Aye, that's my advice too, Mini-ITX atom board in the same box as all the rest of the components. plug it in and forget it is a PC, treat it as just the component that runs EMC2
[23:33:25] <PCW> jitter should only cause second order errors during fast acceleration (next velocity step delayed)
[23:33:43] <Tom_L> andypugh, would you power the mesa cards from the itx psu?
[23:34:14] <YK_> Oh no, then parport compatibility is off too... are there any easy solutions to this connector compatibility problem like an adaptor?
[23:35:03] <andypugh> Tom_L: There are atom boards with a 12V DC jack
[23:35:40] <Tom_L> not sure about mine
[23:35:57] <Tom_L> never bothered to look really
[23:36:05] <Tom_L> why 12v? and not 5
[23:36:09] <andypugh> Tom_L: But I use a PicoPSU on my Atom, it is no bigger than the ATX connector, and converts 12VDC to the required voltages for the board.
[23:36:25] <jdhNC> 50kts, 26ft waves at the local buoy
[23:36:33] <Tom_L> i don't think a pico psu would work on mine would it?
[23:36:39] <Tom_L> it requires the extra plug
[23:36:41] <Tom_L> i think
[23:36:52] <Tom_L> i've got a pico120
[23:36:57] <andypugh> YK_: Maybe we need to start at the other end. What computer do you anticipate running your machine with?
[23:37:56] <Tom_L> andypugh, this is the board i got: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121442
[23:38:07] <andypugh> jdhNC: Wish those winds were down south, guess which is my boat? http://www.clipperroundtheworld.com/index.php/follow/race-viewer/
[23:38:29] <YK_> A laptop. Is this not preferable? I've looked into atom single-board computers and infer that it would be fitted with a DB25 parport for mesa 7i43 connection compatibility) what's the pricing on these, by the way?
[23:38:52] <jdhNC> my boat is tied up at the marina, hoping for the best.
[23:39:22] <Tom_L> you on the east coast?
[23:39:28] <Tom_L> good luck
[23:40:02] <automata> I get an atom board (D425KT chipset from intel) + 2GB RAM + 80GB SATA HDD + case+PSU for about $ 140
[23:40:15] <jdhNC> thanks, I'm just hoping the power doesn't go out (for too long)
[23:40:24] <andypugh> I know my boat was fine in F11 (70kts) in the Irish sea (11kts on the log, under bare poles) so would welcome a small hurricaine so they don't miss the party in Rio.
[23:40:34] <jdhNC> heh
[23:40:39] <Tom_L> i keep a generator fueled up for such occasions
[23:41:23] <PCW> Yeah good luck east coasters hope it blows further east and out to sea
[23:41:59] <Tom_L> ok i got 9.2 with all the service packs
[23:42:32] <andypugh> YK_: Laptops tend not to run RTAI particularly well. Some are excellent, though. If you haven't bought the PC yet, then either take the EMC2 live-CD with you and test it, or go with a known-good configuration.
[23:42:49] <PCW> bbl ttgh and confer with my ovine, galine and lapine friends
[23:43:38] <andypugh> Now I need to look up "galine" I am going to guess at goats.
[23:43:51] <PCW> gallus gallus
[23:44:07] <andypugh> Ah, you have pet Frenchment
[23:44:07] <andypugh> 
[23:44:16] <andypugh> (Frenchmen)
[23:44:18] <PCW> probably SB galline
[23:44:27] <PCW> Ha
[23:44:28] <YK_> andypugh: otherwise, is the only remaining route to go with a small computer with specs like automata mentioned? (another concern is that the current laptop which I wanted to run emc2 with has only a 15 pin parport)
[23:44:59] <PCW> goats are caprine
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[23:45:28] <andypugh> There is almost certainly a link here between gallus gallus and Le Coq Sportive, I feel
[23:46:07] <YK_> Hmm... when will emc2 be compatible with usb port...
[23:46:25] <Tom_L> when usb can deal with realtime
[23:46:53] <automata> What are the numbers on USB 3.0 latency ??
[23:47:36] <andypugh> YK_: No. USB by specification does not guarantee latency. There has been work done on re-writing the entire USB driver to bypass that, but I don't think it ever got working properly.
[23:48:18] <YK_> Is there any simple-to moderately difficult way to get a laptop fitted with a DB25 parport?
[23:48:51] <Tom_L> pcmcia -> parport adapter?
[23:48:52] <Tom_L> who knows
[23:49:10] <andypugh> automata: Nice graph here: http://forums.ni.com/t5/Motion-Control-and-Motor-Drives/Difference-in-latency-between-PCI-and-USB-data-acquisition-board/td-p/467390
[23:50:38] <andypugh> USB 1.0 is 1mS, USB2.0 is 100uS. USB3 is not mentioned. If it follows the trend it is 10uS (which would be OK) but I doubt that it does
[23:51:56] <YK_> Assuming that the hardware connections and software config + HAL file are all set, what would you need to specifically do to identify and go to home, teach through jogging (in cartesian or joint coordinates), then have the robot perform the recorded sequence?
[23:52:50] <andypugh> We are in an odd place on that graph. We don't need all that much bandwith, generally. A few dozen bytes every mS, but we want them _NOW_
[23:55:01] <andypugh> YK_: I don't know how good EMC2 is at teaching, it's a bit undeveloped. Most robot controllers seem to work in joint/teach, whereas EMC2 is good at cartesian/absolute
[23:56:16] <andypugh> However, with logging outputs, it is fairly trivial to convert a position log to G-code.
[23:56:57] <YK_> andypugh: So emc2 can do cartesian teaching but unsure on joint teaching? Is that what you mean?
[23:57:16] <andypugh> I think so.
[23:57:34] <andypugh> It's an area I have not looked at.
[23:58:40] <YK_> andypugh: To clarify, emc2 is definitely capable of taking gcode to robotic movements, but unsure on teaching of any kind? Does that fit better?
[23:59:24] <andypugh> It would be an error to assume that I am an expert on EMC2, I have only been using it for 2 years or so, and there are entire areas of it that I have never explored. That includes robots.