#emc | Logs for 2011-08-23

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[00:03:07] <FinboySlick> Hmmm, this is elegant but overly complicated.
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[00:05:03] <Tom_itx> FinboySlick: gf? http://gnipsel.com/shop/foundation/foundation-16.xhtml
[00:10:55] <FinboySlick> Tom_itx: I see...
[00:10:56] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: knows who my girlfriend is :)
[00:11:27] <JT-Shop> mission was a success
[00:11:28] <Tom_itx> just took 3 of em out to pee
[00:11:59] <JT-Shop> we have a 3 to 1 ratio cats to dog
[00:13:28] * JT-Shop listens to Classical Gas
[00:13:49] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/framing/framing-07.xhtml
[00:15:05] <JT-Shop> http://gnipsel.com/shop/roofing/roofing-15.xhtml
[00:15:47] <FinboySlick> Looks like a nice quiet place.
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[00:16:04] <JT-Shop> yes it is
[00:16:06] <FinboySlick> I assume this is done though, unless you guys have fall really early.
[00:16:49] <JT-Shop> that was last winter... I got concrete for Christmas and started right away with building
[00:16:56] <andypugh> FinboySlick: imagebin.org/169222
[00:17:02] <Tom_itx> crime partners: http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/misc/puppy1.jpg
[00:17:31] <andypugh> FinboySlick: You have to imagine the T-nut I couldn't be bothered to model.
[00:17:55] <andypugh> Simple, and it will work.
[00:18:20] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Yeah, it's sort of what I brought it down to myself too. That's the only way I found that lets me do all the precise machining on the same side.
[00:18:51] <andypugh> For extra location, mill a cross in the bottom, set in key-strips, then machine the register for the chuck in the milling machine using the rotary table itself.
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[00:19:38] <FinboySlick> I'll machine a taper that fits the table center and countersunk holes to hold the chuck on the back side in the same setup, then just clear a spot for the nuts on the other side.
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[00:19:52] * JT-Shop waits for the puppy photo to download
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[00:20:07] <andypugh> FinboySlick: I much prefer my way.
[00:20:27] <Tom_L> JT-Shop, refresh, i reset the router
[00:20:30] <JT-Shop> how can you get a perfect fit with the taper
[00:20:34] <andypugh> I have tried using the table centre with limited success.
[00:20:53] <JT-Shop> ah there you go
[00:20:59] <Tom_L> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/misc/puppy2.jpg
[00:21:06] <JT-Shop> puppies hard at asleep
[00:21:17] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Good point there, I'd end up wobbling on the table.
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[00:21:19] <Tom_L> just managed to get them there
[00:21:20] <andypugh> A cross of key-strips is absolutely located (and it doesn't really matter where), then you machine the register for the chuck in-situ.
[00:22:05] <JT-Shop> the cross of keys is about as good as you can get if the fit is nice
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[00:22:34] <FinboySlick> Cross of keys meaning ridges that will match the table t-slots?
[00:22:59] <JT-Shop> or use a key slot on the adapter and fit keys
[00:23:02] <andypugh> Well, mill grooves, then set some key-steel strips in (held in with small screws)
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[00:23:32] <JT-Shop> you can fit the keys very tight to each slot
[00:23:34] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Milling grooves in the table?
[00:23:45] <andypugh> I don't have any pictures, but that is how my toolpost and rotary locate in the cross-slide
[00:23:49] <JT-Shop> the adapter
[00:24:03] <andypugh> No, mill grooves in the unerside of the adaptor plate.
[00:24:07] <FinboySlick> Okay, and then put keys in them, I get it.
[00:24:15] <FinboySlick> I was going wide-eyed there.
[00:24:38] <FinboySlick> Bad enough that I'll likely take a cutter unwillingly to the table, I wouldn't do it willingly ;)
[00:24:51] <JT-Shop> heh
[00:25:06] <andypugh> There is strong evidence here of JT and I failing to think outside the box, or at least thinking inside exactly the same other box.
[00:25:37] <JT-Shop> time for Kamikaze Gourmet Night here
[00:25:48] <FinboySlick> I didn't think the table t-slots could be used as a reference.
[00:26:06] <FinboySlick> I though they weren't meant to be precisely located.
[00:26:14] <andypugh> FinboySlick: That does rely on getting some key steel the same width as the T-slots.
[00:26:22] <andypugh> Bit you can always mill it down.
[00:26:43] <FinboySlick> andypugh: Stop scaring me with thoughts of milling my table already.
[00:26:59] <andypugh> And it doesn't matter if the T-slots aren't exact, as long as you always use the same alignment (make punch marks)
[00:27:13] <JT-Shop> just take an angle grinder to your table and be done with it LOL
[00:27:23] <andypugh> I was meaning mill the key-steel.
[00:28:42] <andypugh> The Keys align the adaptor with the table the same way every time. You then bolt on the adaptor, and mill the OD and chuck mounting spigot in-situ. Even if the table slots are inches out, that will still give you 100% concentricity.
[00:30:46] <andypugh> Right, time to sleep.
[00:30:48] <andypugh> Night all
[00:30:53] <JT-Shop> good night Andy
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[00:31:34] <FinboySlick> Hmmmm... I'm not sure what the chuck mounting spigot would be. Probably a language thing though, I'm not a native english speaker.
[00:31:52] <JT-Shop> how does your chuck mount?
[00:32:08] <FinboySlick> Three tapped holes on the bottom.
[00:33:04] <JT-Shop> hmmm, so you need some kind of centering on the chuck... is it a through hole?
[00:33:13] <FinboySlick> Sadly not.
[00:33:30] <FinboySlick> Wait, the chuck does have a through hole,y es.
[00:33:32] <FinboySlick> yes
[00:33:50] <JT-Shop> you could make a bushing to center is on the adapter
[00:33:55] <JT-Shop> is/it
[00:34:05] <JT-Shop> center it on the adapter
[00:34:14] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Actually, wouldn't that be a perfect way to use the table center taper?
[00:34:29] <JT-Shop> mount the adapter then bore the center
[00:35:02] <JT-Shop> the taper is a PIA as the final height is a guessing game
[00:35:28] <Tom_L> plug gauge
[00:35:38] <JT-Shop> if your using a collet the center taper is good but the chuck is another thing
[00:35:40] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Well, yes, but if I'm clamping the adjustment part in the chuck, I don't care about depth that much.
[00:35:59] <FinboySlick> It'll also center the *jaws* to the table.
[00:36:24] <JT-Shop> so your thinking a taper with an od to match the ID of the chuck?
[00:36:49] <JT-Shop> dinner time here guys
[00:36:51] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Hmm, collet would be even better.
[00:36:57] <FinboySlick> Then I just need a rod.
[00:36:58] <JT-Shop> talk to you later
[00:37:07] <FinboySlick> JT-Shop: Yeah, and thanks :)
[00:38:15] <Danimal_garage> yay, they already shipped my linear rails
[00:38:28] <Danimal_garage> usps priority, i should have them in a few days tops
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[01:03:07] <FinboySlick> Okay, table is MT2. I get a MT#2, drawbar collet, 1/2" rot to hold in it, make my adapter plate. Fasten plate to chuck, slide chuck+plate on collet-held rod, tighten chuck to center everything on the 1/2 bar, tighten plate on table, all aligned.
[01:04:13] <FinboySlick> MT2 can slide through the center-hole of the chuck so I'd be good to go.
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[01:37:25] <macpod> Quick question. I just built a 3-axis cnc mill (x2 mini mill). When I hit the left arrow key, which direction should the table move (left/right)?
[01:37:52] <FinboySlick> macpod: Think of it as the cutter moving in the direction you command.
[01:38:18] <FinboySlick> So the table will move in the opposite direction
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[01:38:24] <macpod> Ok, so right. That makes sense, but seems counterintuitive and I'm trying to figure out why I think that
[01:38:36] <FinboySlick> macpod: Yeah, it sort of got me too.
[01:38:57] <macpod> Actually I know why it seems strange, I'm used to wood routers, where the head would move in the direction the arrow key is
[01:39:00] <FinboySlick> macpod: For the z axis, the table doesn't move, the cutter does, so that's going to move as expected.
[01:39:11] <macpod> Got it. Thanks
[01:39:32] <FinboySlick> Yay, I'm moving up in the world!
[01:39:45] <FinboySlick> I'm usually the one asking basic questions here.
[01:39:47] <Jymmm> Anyone have a 9mm Glock by chance?
[01:39:48] <macpod> What possibilities you have :D
[01:40:09] <macpod> Was the question that bad Jymmm?
[01:40:41] <Jymmm> macpod: Didn't even see it.
[01:41:20] <Jymmm> I have a mag I want to sell/trade is all.
[01:42:04] <macpod> http://www.gunbroker.com/
[01:46:16] <Jymmm> Too much BS on guns sites.
[01:47:19] <jdhNC> give it away on glocktalk
[01:47:40] <Jymmm> Give me $20
[01:48:42] <jdhNC> nah
[01:49:05] <jdhNC> plain old mags are $20 new everywhere though
[01:49:35] <Jymmm> Glock Brand?
[01:50:59] <jdhNC> afaik...I'm not a glock fan.
[01:59:21] <Danimal_garage> i'll take it, i lost my last one in a drive by
[02:00:09] <macpod> hah
[02:00:15] <Danimal_garage> no serials by any chance?
[02:01:12] <Danimal_garage> i didn't think they allowed guns in the Ghey Area.
[02:01:22] <Danimal_garage> isn't it liberal central up there?
[02:01:23] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage: You'll end up on a terrorist watch list ;)
[02:02:07] <Danimal_garage> eh, i'm already a target with a white windowless van
[02:03:44] <jdhNC> get rid of that "free candy" sign on the side
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[02:22:41] <elmo401> I like free candy
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[03:00:03] <tom3p> what is the purpose of autotransformer? (i have a bad autotransformer. primary is tapped 0 26 36 110, secondaries are 9 0 9, 18 0 18 , 10 0 10)
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[03:20:14] <pcw_home> Autotransformers are used when isolation is not needed, like a boost/buck line voltage adjuster
[03:30:07] <FinboySlick> So sad.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/STARRETT-711-TEST-INDICATOR-LAST-WORD-/260828439506?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cba9623d2
[03:47:36] <Danimal_garage> vintage? don't they still make those?
[03:47:53] <Danimal_garage> and $40 for that??
[03:48:33] <Danimal_garage> i always hated those indicators anyways, the switch to reverse direction drove me nuts
[03:56:52] <FinboySlick> Danimal_garage: This one is very nice though: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-708-708B-Dial-Indicator-Set-0001-w-Case-/250878550368?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6986e160
[03:58:16] <FinboySlick> I also finally found an edge finder that would fit my darn ER11 spindle :P
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[04:18:45] <macpod> For a mill, traditionally what should the range and home position be set to? i.e. if I have 12 inches of travel, should the scale go (12top, 0 bottom), (0top, -12 bottom), or (6top, -6bottom), etc?
[04:18:57] <macpod> 3 axis mill that is... on the z axis
[04:19:01] <macpod> important details... :)
[04:26:06] <toastyde1th> mills usually follow cartesian conventions for the first quadrant
[04:26:40] <toastyde1th> i.e. the table home is positioned in such a way that the table is +x, +y
[04:26:51] <toastyde1th> which usually means the tool sits over the lower left hand corner in the home position
[04:27:55] <macpod> Got that, but what about z?
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[04:28:22] <toastyde1th> Z is a little different; it is as far from the table as possible at home
[04:28:37] <toastyde1th> i.e. all Z values are negative
[04:28:45] <ds3> g54 is your friend
[04:29:00] <macpod> Ok, so home for z (at the top) is 0, right? And anything lower is negative?
[04:29:05] <toastyde1th> this has nothing to do with g54, but rather where the absolute machine coordinates lie
[04:29:16] <macpod> Gotta home the machine :)
[04:29:25] <toastyde1th> yes, that's correct
[04:30:21] <macpod> Ok, that helps alot. Thanks toastyde1th. I had it setup like that, but got lost for a moment.. I'm doing some opengl stuff at work and airplane coordinates for another project.. so my brain is fried :D
[04:30:30] <toastyde1th> lol
[04:33:46] <ds3> with g54, you can set up the physical coordinates a bit odd and still have things work
[04:34:03] <ds3> w/o g54, you get reminded each time you run the machine or the CAM
[04:50:27] <Eartaker> g28...
[04:54:01] <toastyde1th> ds3, what does that have to do with where the machine physically homes
[04:54:15] <toastyde1th> and what conventions are in place for that physical process?
[04:54:29] <toastyde1th> nobody is talking about work offsets because they don't matter to the machine at power on
[04:56:36] <toastyde1th> and no, it might not matter to the guy in the garage running emc, but the conventions are in place because of the lessons learned developing larger and more expensive machine tools - i see no reason for a hobbyist to not follow them unless they have a compelling reason to deviate
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[08:46:24] <alex4nder> yoh
[08:47:02] <Loetmichel> mornin'
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[13:17:28] <JT-Shop> One leak at the 5 micron filter at the compressed air tank all else is solid... I wish I could say that about the CHNC that air leaking S@B
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[14:53:06] <pcw_home> pcw wonders how someone can blow up all 8 MOSFETS, the high side fuse _and_ the low voltage isolated logic on a 7I29
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[14:54:49] <pcw_home> I guess if you try every combination of polarity on the power and control connections you will eventually get everything
[14:55:28] <archivist> pcw_home, I used to repair electronic audio kits, seen one board destroyed by what looked like mains across the grounds on the various audio signal io
[14:56:44] <pcw_home> m wondering if they didn't power this (DC bridge) direct off the AC line
[14:57:06] <A2Sheds> that would be my guess
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[14:57:16] <pcw_home> Still doesnt explain the low side carnage
[14:57:19] <A2Sheds> power is power :)
[14:57:38] <A2Sheds> esp. with the isolation
[14:58:05] <archivist> once mains nothing escapes death on a board
[14:58:33] <archivist> once mains gets on a board nothing escapes death on a board
[14:59:34] <archivist> we did actually repair the one I saw, all 14 ics let their smoke out iirc
[15:01:20] <archivist> so was the low side the ground return for the mains injected to the mosfets after they failed etc
[15:01:42] <pcw_home> Well the low side is 2500V isolated and the isolation is intact but the primary 30A fuse is blown and all MOSFETS are gone
[15:01:44] <pcw_home> low side CPLD was fried, replaced that but more low side parts dead so pretty much total loss
[15:02:59] <pcw_home> Since this is beginning retrofitter we will replace but hate to see this happen again... Also glad the fuse blew before major fire
[15:03:06] <archivist> lightening will test your isolation
[15:04:05] <archivist> hmm I wonder how much back emf in a failure could come from a motor
[15:04:58] <pcw_home> Normally these things are driven with transformer isolated DC bus supplies on retrofits
[15:05:54] <Loetmichel> archivist: if dc motor and enough rpm: about ten times the rated dc ;-)
[15:06:06] <Loetmichel> look here:
[15:06:16] <archivist> what im thinking too Loetmichel
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[15:20:42] <Loetmichel> archivist http://www.cyrom.org/pce/e240generator.avi
[15:20:50] <Loetmichel> sorry, had to work a little ;-)
[15:21:18] <Loetmichel> this is a Electrocraft E240, about 120W continous
[15:22:00] <Loetmichel> and is has no sweat to drive a h4 car lamp (both filaments!)
[15:22:22] <Loetmichel> so it can at least generate 60+55W power if driven... !
[15:23:26] <Loetmichel> even the poor c0 minilathe goes into stall (overload ;-)
[15:31:45] <cradek> pcw_home: after it smokes once, you'd think the person would stop
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[15:58:11] <pcw_home> Well since all the MOSFETS were shorted, the 30A fuse blown, top blown off one gate driver,
[15:58:13] <pcw_home> trace blown up under current sense resistor I think it probably was noticeable when it failed...
[15:59:01] <Loetmichel> pcw_home: yeah, sound noisy and smelly
[15:59:30] * Loetmichel stood lately in on of our measurement chambers, talking with the engineer in charge...
[15:59:32] <cradek> just curious - am I right in understanding that your company replaces boards blown up by incorrect installation, for free?
[16:00:06] <Loetmichel> <- *sniff* "just a moment, was smelling here like Fish?!?"
[16:00:37] <pcw_home> only for people that dont know what they are doing :-)
[16:02:25] <Loetmichel> seconds later: *BANG* ... *500kEur spectrum analyzer switches off..."
[16:02:42] <Loetmichel> tantal capacitor bursted
[16:03:20] <cradek> pcw_home: that's both an awesome and scary policy...
[16:03:52] <cradek> heh, what if someone can smoke six of them and STILL not know what they're doing?
[16:11:50] <pcw_home> Over all return rate is no more than 1-2 % so its no a big deal
[16:11:52] <pcw_home> but we will go over the customers setup pretty carefully after a failure like this
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[16:13:44] <pcw_home> I'm thinking that either VBUS was backwards or they put AC on VBUS
[16:13:46] <pcw_home> other possibilities are switch between PS capacitors and bridge
[16:14:03] <pcw_home> Or just too high VBUS
[16:16:48] <pcw_home> Using bare DC powered HBridges takes more care than retrofiting say an analog servo system, more things to do wrong
[16:17:10] <cradek> I can sure see that.
[16:18:21] <pcw_home> I think I will also suggest not using pncconf for hbridges, too many things to tweak that should just be set correctly once
[16:19:43] <cradek> it is hard to decide whether to help make a gui configurator handle many special cases, or recommend that people just not use it in those cases and offer sample configs instead
[16:20:09] <pcw_home> "tantal capacitor bursted" this is better that bursting into flames
[16:22:04] <pcw_home> Yeah It would be better if the configurator knew what was out there. Thats our fault for not having a consistent daughterboard ID system
[16:26:09] <pcw_home> Silly us for using all the I/O pins for I/O. At least the newer serial stuff is discoverable
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[17:05:49] <Loetmichel> re @ home...
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[17:23:09] <IchGuckLive> Hi all from the Thundery Germany after we hit 95F
[17:27:05] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: what? so cold?
[17:27:15] <Loetmichel> its over 100F here ;-)
[17:27:59] <Loetmichel> my car told me on my weay back home: 41,7c outside temp at 100kmh ;)
[17:28:43] <IchGuckLive> you need a new temp messurment
[17:29:05] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: no, tahts relatively correct
[17:29:16] <IchGuckLive> relatively
[17:29:35] <IchGuckLive> http://www.wetter.com/wetter_aktuell/niederschlagsradar/deutschland/
[17:29:41] <Loetmichel> sun, new (black) "autobahn" and no wind....
[17:30:18] <Loetmichel> so the air in 30cm (bumper height) over the street can bei in this range ;-)
[17:30:38] <IchGuckLive> as you say
[17:31:05] <IchGuckLive> next thunderstorm will hit us at USAFB with full power 22l/m²
[17:32:45] <Loetmichel> my outside thermometer here at home tells me 27,8c at the moment
[17:33:01] <Loetmichel> and thats in the shadow on my balcony
[17:33:11] <IchGuckLive> as here
[17:33:54] <IchGuckLive> i can see the thunderstorm aproching at 60km/h
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[17:40:17] <IchGuckLive> need to close down Heavy weather overhead
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[17:40:42] <IchGuckLive> not as bad as hurican irean over caribien but heavy enoph
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[17:45:24] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: I'm trying to make an assembly. When I try to move a component it says it's fixed and can't be moved, what am I missing here?
[17:53:55] <archivist> missing that its fixed!, float it
[17:54:39] <Jymmm> Ok, I (eventually) found the FLOAT, thanks.
[17:55:04] <Jymmm> How can I say "in from the left side by 2inches" as example?
[17:55:51] <Jymmm> Oh, I add a sketched dimension for that don't I ?
[17:56:26] <Jymmm> I hate this... I ALWAYS forget the basics every single time *sigh*
[17:57:45] <jdhNC> east coast earthquake
[17:58:02] <frysteev> felt it in toronto
[17:58:17] <jdhNC> here in NC also
[18:02:22] <Tom_itx> Jymmm you should use it more
[18:03:10] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: I only use it when making fixtures. Other than that I usually use Corel Draw for laser artwork.
[18:03:33] <Tom_itx> i assume 'it' is solidworks?
[18:03:39] <Jymmm> 2004
[18:03:52] <frysteev> http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsus/Maps/US10/32.42.-80.-70_eqs.php
[18:03:55] <Tom_itx> that's what i have
[18:06:16] <Jymmm> Heh... USGS lists CA/NV, US, World... Just ride the wave(s) baby!
[18:08:39] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: ?
[18:09:17] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Tis ok, archivist helped me out, SW
[18:09:19] <frysteev> JT-Shop: Jymmm broke out his y2k survival rum,
[18:09:32] <JT-Shop> LOL
[18:09:52] <Jymmm> frysteev: Hey now, I resemble that remark!
[18:10:36] <frysteev> :P
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[19:16:58] <Danimal_garage> OMG! RUN! HIDE! EARTHQUAKE!!!!!!
[19:17:17] <syyl_> Oo
[19:17:34] <Danimal_garage> :)
[19:22:24] <Danimal_garage> i love how a ton of metal chips come flying out of my air conditioner when i turn it on lol
[19:22:32] <Danimal_garage> maybe i should move it...
[19:23:14] <frysteev> confetti
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[20:36:33] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gK14SaaYMoc
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[20:40:56] <andypugh> That is fairly cool
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[20:41:53] <Jymmm> http://kvarc.extra.hu/step/motor/emc/emckinematics.html
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[21:35:52] <Danimal_garage> yawn
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[22:08:00] <JT-Shop> oh well I get to write a NPT sub tomorrow for some 1/8" NTP threads
[22:08:37] <andypugh> Are you going to rant about how the pitch is along the travel line, not the axis?
[22:08:52] <JT-Shop> most likely not, why
[22:09:12] <andypugh> SteveB tends to.
[22:09:19] <JT-Shop> ah yea
[22:09:25] <Danimal_garage> lol
[22:09:26] <JT-Shop> picking nits I think
[22:09:28] <andypugh> But it is worth bearing in mind
[22:09:36] <JT-Shop> yea
[22:09:56] <JT-Shop> take that into my calculations
[22:10:05] <andypugh> I amnot sure what happens if you use a G76 with in- and out-tapers that meet in the middle
[22:10:24] <Danimal_garage> magic
[22:10:27] <Danimal_garage> magic happens
[22:10:33] <JT-Shop> I'm not sure either, maybe Kenneth will try
[22:11:22] <Danimal_garage> the grocery store restocked their inventory of Sierra Nevada Torpedo extra ipa
[22:11:27] <Danimal_garage> yum
[22:11:43] <Danimal_garage> one of my favorite mass produced beers
[22:11:55] <JT-Shop> I never did like hoppy beers
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[22:12:13] * JT-Shop looks for gasket plug for my head
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[22:12:52] <Danimal_garage> that's like saying you don't like amuricuh
[22:13:05] <JT-Shop> seems easy enough at this point to use G33 with the proper numbers
[22:14:17] <JT-Shop> crap I left my beer inside and it is getting warm
[22:14:30] <andypugh> JT-Shop: Kenneth seems to try everything blindly. He is like some sort of idiot-savant bug-finder. Actually, I am not sure about the "savant" part. :-)
[22:14:51] <Danimal_garage> lol
[22:15:02] <Danimal_garage> ha
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[22:17:06] <andypugh> The guys at work finally noticed that I have been doing the test-driving thing for several years without a hint of driver training, and have booked me in to an external "driver awareness" course tomorrow. I don't know what happens if I fail, I am a fairly dreadful driver. Never owned a car, you see,
[22:18:13] <Danimal_garage> you don't drive???
[22:18:35] <Danimal_garage> how do you go anywhere?
[22:21:06] <Danimal_garage> teleporting?
[22:21:39] <andypugh> Bits of the rally at the weekend were a little muddy: https://picasaweb.google.com/112389563748439982611/Beaconsrally2011#5643584839606329186
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[22:22:39] <Danimal_garage> ah, thats right, you ride bikes
[22:24:18] <Danimal_garage> dirtbikes in the mud are fun
[22:24:32] <andypugh> Fancy making me some new sprockets?
[22:26:01] <Danimal_garage> i don't do motorcycle sprockets
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[22:27:01] <skunkworks_> logger[psha]:
[22:27:34] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: Any particular reason why not? They like their bling,
[22:29:10] <Danimal_garage> eh, just haven't had the need to get into it
[22:29:46] <Danimal_garage> i just want to work enough to pay the bills right now, i'd rather have the time off if i can get it
[22:30:35] <Danimal_garage> worked too hard when i was younger, i want to enjoy some time off
[22:31:08] <andypugh> Ah, yes, fair enough. That is why I turned down £600 to make parts for the race yachts. I can't buy a weekend back.
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[22:33:54] <Danimal_garage> exactly
[22:34:28] <Danimal_garage> i try to stick to 20 hours a week or less
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[22:39:55] <Danimal_garage> ha, kept wondering why my a/c kept shutting off, the condensation tank was full of water
[22:40:11] <Danimal_garage> i thought the plug was out, but apparently not
[22:44:01] <andypugh> I think I have heard that that water is worth keeping for batteries, irons, that sort of thing.
[22:45:40] <Danimal_garage> it's on my garage floor now, probably has more iron in it than anything
[22:46:05] <Danimal_garage> i have a reverse osmosis system anyways
[22:46:17] <Danimal_garage> kinda needed for anodizing
[22:46:30] <andypugh> What does that taste like?
[22:46:35] <Danimal_garage> nothing
[22:46:54] <andypugh> In a good way or a bad way?
[22:46:55] <Danimal_garage> pretty friggin pure
[22:47:00] <JT-Shop> I drink RO water all the time
[22:47:10] <Danimal_garage> well, it makes any other water taste weird
[22:47:18] <JT-Shop> not quite as pure as distilled water
[22:47:27] <andypugh> Yeah, I am going to be living on RO water for 6 weeks next year. Just curious
[22:47:58] <JT-Shop> if the RO unit springs a leak you will know the first sip :)
[22:48:04] <Danimal_garage> JT-Shop: my buddy works for a company that makes RO systems, he's working on waters specifically for brewing beer
[22:48:18] <JT-Shop> cool, me too
[22:48:37] <JT-Shop> wonder if he as seen Bru'n Water?
[22:48:45] <Danimal_garage> not sure
[22:49:01] <JT-Shop> it's a spreadsheet by a water guy just for making beer
[22:49:09] <JT-Shop> it's pretty intense
[22:49:11] <Danimal_garage> the do specific stuff for coffe and whatnot, they're trying to break into beer waters as well
[22:49:34] <andypugh> There was a word for that... Burtonisation? Let me look
[22:49:44] <JT-Shop> are they blending RO with tap for coffee
[22:49:44] <Danimal_garage> not sure
[22:50:02] <Danimal_garage> he says he can fine tune it pretty good
[22:50:10] <JT-Shop> I bet he can
[22:50:11] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewing_methods#Burtonisation
[22:50:35] <Danimal_garage> i drink too much to brew my own beer
[22:50:48] <JT-Shop> lol
[22:50:57] <Danimal_garage> same reason i don't get a keg
[22:51:04] <JT-Shop> couple more trips to ferry all the tools from the house to the shop
[22:51:17] <Danimal_garage> nice!
[22:53:40] <andypugh> Wikipedia reckons this is a challenge for home brewers. You could probably use CNC to make the parts and control it: http://www.beerhunter.com/documents/19133-000132.html
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[22:56:41] <andypugh> Hmm, Marstons Pedigree is certainly a good pint.
[23:00:26] <Danimal_garage> couldn't understand it, it wasn't written in Amurican.
[23:02:06] <JT-Shop> LOL
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[23:03:29] <Tom_itx> Temp: 105.0 F (40.6 C)
[23:04:01] <Danimal_garage> Tom_itx: outside?
[23:04:07] <Tom_itx> uh huh
[23:04:11] <Danimal_garage> wow
[23:04:28] * JT-Shop gets out the machinist handbook
[23:04:33] <Tom_itx> my outside thermometer said 115
[23:04:41] <Danimal_garage> holy crap
[23:04:43] <Danimal_garage> where?
[23:04:52] <andypugh> If mine said that, there would be a problem.
[23:04:54] <Danimal_garage> it's like 80 here maybe
[23:05:04] <Danimal_garage> and i live in the friggin desert
[23:05:12] <JT-Shop> 86f here and raining
[23:05:13] <andypugh> Mine says 15.7
[23:05:23] <Tom_itx> i'd trade either of you
[23:05:48] <Danimal_garage> not a cloud in the sky here
[23:05:52] <Danimal_garage> low humidity
[23:06:03] <Danimal_garage> damn how i hate San Diego
[23:06:08] <Danimal_garage> :)
[23:06:16] <andypugh> 60F here, according to the convertor (it is midnight)
[23:06:28] <Danimal_garage> ah, it's 4pm here
[23:06:29] <Tom_itx> nice mild night
[23:06:36] <Tom_itx> 6pm
[23:06:49] <Danimal_garage> it'll be in the 60's tonight here as well
[23:07:45] <Danimal_garage> that reminds me, i'm supposed to go to vegas in a month
[23:07:46] <andypugh> There seems to be a degree of units confusion here... http://news.ebru.tv/-northeast-braces-for-temps-near-boiling-point
[23:07:54] <Danimal_garage> probably will be in the 100's
[23:08:29] <JT-Shop> hmmm. taper of thread 1 in16 measured on diameter
[23:08:42] <Tom_itx> just got back from rescuing my niece with a shredded tire on the road too
[23:08:44] <Tom_itx> damn it's hot
[23:08:47] <andypugh> New Scientist suggests that 100F is the boiling point of methy vinyl ketone
[23:09:15] <Danimal_garage> whats that mean in Amurican?
[23:09:28] <Tom_itx> 212 is boiling
[23:09:50] <Danimal_garage> i thought it was like 230 or something?
[23:09:57] <Tom_itx> no
[23:10:17] <Tom_itx> water boils at 212 i think at sea level
[23:10:22] <Danimal_garage> ah
[23:10:28] <andypugh> It boils are 100C.
[23:10:33] <Tom_itx> less at higher elevations
[23:10:40] <Tom_itx> yeah
[23:10:58] <Danimal_garage> i just know 3 minutes in the microwave on high
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[23:11:05] <JT-Shop> were jamming with Bob now
[23:11:24] <mikegg> you better lively up yourself
[23:11:25] <andypugh> Aparently it was AP who put out the story, getting something very, very, wrong. Perhaps that Mars Orbiter engineer got a new job
[23:12:04] <L84Supper> if water boils at lower temps if the pressure is lower the why don't microwaves just use vacuum pumps vs magnetrons?
[23:12:31] <JT-Shop> I know the key is in "taper of thread 1 in16 measured on diameter" but I don't get it yet :/
[23:12:53] <Tom_itx> wtf are you working on?
[23:13:46] <JT-Shop> threading NPT external threads
[23:14:27] <Tom_itx> oh
[23:15:02] <Tom_itx> maybe that requires a plug gauge
[23:15:45] <JT-Shop> trying to figure out how to do it with G33
[23:15:58] <JT-Shop> ie what angle to thread at
[23:16:09] <L84Supper> do the Chinese have anything against EMC? http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/slip-up-in-chinese-military-tv-show-reveals-more-than-intended-60619.html
[23:17:06] <ve7it> JT-Shop, http://www.micro100.com/downloads/NTP%20Thread%20Program%20Rev.%20A.xls maybe useful?
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[23:20:26] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, there's a table on P1775 of mine giving the minor diameter and length of perfect thread
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[23:20:34] <JT-Shop> ve7it: that looks like it is for thread milling, thanks for the link
[23:20:39] <YK> Question: Links to clear, concise internet instructions for using emc2 with a 6-axis robotic arm? OR Specific steps to use emc2 with such a machine? Thanks in advance.
[23:21:28] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: my copy is the LARGE PRINT version 28
[23:21:36] <Tom_itx> 25
[23:21:39] <Tom_itx> i'm old
[23:21:40] <Tom_itx> .
[23:21:43] <Tom_itx> :)
[23:22:05] <Tom_itx> i'm sure yours has the same chart
[23:22:19] <andypugh> YK: What design of arm?
[23:22:23] <Tom_itx> don't see an angle there yet though
[23:22:49] <andypugh> L84Supper: Was that a serious question, before I give a serious answer?
[23:22:57] <YK> Andy: I don't understand the question.
[23:23:41] <L84Supper> andypugh: was it just some script kiddie behind the linuxcnc.org problems?
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[23:23:52] <JT-Shop> yes, I think I'm looking at the same page
[23:24:07] <Tom_itx> the 1 in 16 refers to the chart number
[23:24:15] <Tom_itx> for the diameter i think
[23:24:43] <andypugh> L84Supper: I was asking about the vac-pump idea
[23:24:48] <L84Supper> Access denied. by opendns........ I tried to get the status updated for linuxcnc.org
[23:25:00] <L84Supper> heh... was kidding
[23:25:29] <andypugh> YK: Is the robot arm a Puma or similar, or something less common?
[23:26:25] <JT-Shop> HuFlungDung has some info here on it http://www.cnczone.com/forums/g-code_programing/65097-1_4-18_pipe_thread.html
[23:26:36] <YK> andypugh: The robotic arm link orientation is similar to that of a Fanuc.
[23:26:47] <andypugh> There are pre-built sample configs for Puma and Scara robots, and a rather more difficult-to-set-up kinematics for general serial robots
[23:26:50] <JT-Shop> ah ha taper is 1" in 16"
[23:26:59] <Tom_itx> heh
[23:27:00] <JT-Shop> or 3/4" per foot
[23:27:13] <Tom_itx> and given the diameter at a given length
[23:27:16] <Tom_itx> by the chart
[23:27:41] <Tom_itx> at L2 it is E2
[23:27:44] <Tom_itx> i think
[23:28:08] <YK> Andypugh: I would like to learn about that difficult kinematics (I already know how to attain the DH parameters for the robotic arm, now it's just a matter of being able to actually control it)
[23:28:12] <Tom_itx> we always used a plug gauge
[23:28:58] <JT-Shop> I can just use a fitting on the pipe now that I know the taper
[23:29:11] <andypugh> YK: If you have the DH parameters then it is just a case of setting them in genserkins.
[23:29:37] <Tom_itx> well yeah, but if you were making fittings you'd need to know the diameter before threads
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[23:30:11] <JT-Shop> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=66964&d=1222289432
[23:30:32] <JT-Shop> yea, I just have to thread two aluminum pipes
[23:31:03] <YK> andypugh: The problem my friend (he has spent hours and hours trying to see what the concrete steps are for doing this to little avail) and I have right now is learning the specific steps. That is, what to actually do, like click this or click that.
[23:31:32] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, do you have the machinery handbook cd?
[23:31:38] <Tom_itx> i've often wondered what's on it
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[23:31:42] <JT-Shop> yea, but I don't like it
[23:31:48] <Tom_itx> i don't
[23:31:58] <JT-Shop> it sucks really and I don't use it
[23:32:01] <andypugh> Are you or your friend called "honey" on the forum?
[23:32:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: it sucks? the whole thing, the cd, ?
[23:32:27] <Tom_itx> if i did more outside work, i'd get a new book
[23:32:28] <JT-Shop> too much copy protection to be useful
[23:32:44] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: what version?
[23:32:51] <Tom_itx> 28
[23:32:52] <Danimal_garage> i never really use the machinist's handbook
[23:33:05] <Danimal_garage> i only used it for triangle formulas
[23:33:06] * Tom_itx wonders how Danimal_garage gets by
[23:33:23] <Danimal_garage> i don't know, 14 years of machining?
[23:33:27] <Tom_itx> umm, there's a nice little program for that
[23:33:49] <YK> andypugh: No; neither of us are "honey". We're just looking for some down-to-earth instructions. I know what genserkins is, and I know DH parameters, but I have no clue how to do anything (stuck in theoryland).
[23:33:50] <Danimal_garage> key word: used
[23:34:10] <andypugh> I found myself using two consecutive pages of Machinery's Handbook yesterday, on the same bit of metal. The Automotive Serrated Shaft and the 3-dog clutch. (pages 572 and 573 of the 12th edition. (1943)
[23:34:32] <andypugh> YK: http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,10/id,9039/ might help a bit
[23:34:34] <Danimal_garage> ha, i got the 12th edition too!
[23:34:47] <Danimal_garage> my old foreman gave it to me
[23:36:10] <JT-Shop> that spreadsheet seems to cover it well
[23:36:35] <andypugh> YK: is it a stepper system?
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[23:37:58] <YK> andypugh: the link helped slightly, but I still have no clue what to do. The robotic arm moves through hydraulic motors whose flow rates are determined by stepper-operated needle valves, as well as solenoid valves.
[23:38:20] <andypugh> YK: What ought to work to get you started (assuming steppers) is to use stepconf from the menu, and set up as many angular axes as you need. Then when you have everything moving, abandon stepconf and edit the HAL file. Swap "trivkins" for "genserkins" in the file, and add in all the DH parameter definitions. it should get you close.
[23:38:28] <YK> andypugh: *solenoid valves for directional control)
[23:38:42] <andypugh> Ohh!
[23:38:56] <andypugh> Sounds exquisitely awkward.
[23:39:24] <andypugh> Feedback is encoders?
[23:40:00] <YK> andypugh: Yes. Eventually we are moving up to 5 million ppr incremental encoders.
[23:40:18] <andypugh> That is effectively velocity control via steppers, and will need PID and stepgens all in the same config.
[23:40:25] <andypugh> Where is it? I want to plat ;-)
[23:40:29] <andypugh> (play)
[23:41:04] <Tom_itx> http://www.machinistsfriend.com/
[23:41:26] <Tom_itx> found that on my hdd a while back. maybe came with some program i have
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[23:42:05] <YK> andypugh: I wanted to have everything prepared beforehand so the robot hasn't been constructed yet. Being stuck in theoryland for emc2 made it risky to move on. So stepconf, you say?
[23:43:05] <andypugh> No. Your machine is too complicated and unusual for stepconf to help much.
[23:43:29] <andypugh> I think you need to program in HAL, by hand.
[23:43:37] <PCW> Probably needs a comp to take the PID out and drive the stepgen (limit3?)
[23:43:41] <Danimal_garage> if you haven't built it yet, why not just use regular motors and drives?
[23:44:41] <YK> andypugh: The cost was excessive for risk like that to be had (~4-5k), you see.) . Can you tell me more about the HAL? I know that there is a guide, but I'm worried that that would still leave me in theoryland.
[23:44:43] <andypugh> Well, is seems to me like a conventional velocity-loop drive, except that the velocities are stepgen positions, so it seems conceptually straightforward
[23:45:33] <YK> andypugh: Yes, we had the concept down with a similar train of thought)
[23:45:41] <andypugh> If you are confident that the motors and valves all work, then I am confident that EMC2 can control it.
[23:47:02] <PCW> How many steps full forward to full reverse?
[23:48:02] <PCW> Wonder if a step motor run shuttle valve need a wiggler like a analog valve
[23:48:18] <YK> andypugh: I am quite confident that the hydraulic and electrical systems are functional. It's reassuring to hear that emc2 is compatible as a control system. How exactly do you get started with programming for the HAL? (What to open and such). The steps to full forward and reverse have not been determined yet (we understood that placeholders for these values would work initially)
[23:51:01] <andypugh> Well, you probably need to stare at a typical stepper config for a while (from the sample configs). Just look at the HAL file. Then look at a servo config, and note that where the PID velocity commands go to a PWM function in normal Servo, you would drive a stepgen. The PID output sign needs to operate the direction solenoid.
[23:51:32] <andypugh> I do rather feel that a Moog valve driven by PWM would be a more conventional setup.
[23:51:59] <Danimal_garage> don't they make ball joints?
[23:52:17] <andypugh> One thing to keep clear is that axis direction and stepgen direction outputs are very different.
[23:52:30] <andypugh> Danimal_garage: You thinking of Nook?
[23:52:40] <Danimal_garage> moog
[23:53:16] <andypugh> Moog make synthesisers and servo hydraulic valves
[23:53:22] <Danimal_garage> http://www.federalmogul.com/en/AftermarketSolutions/SouthAmerica/SteeringSolutions/Products/MOOG-Steering-Suspension/BallJoints/
[23:54:05] <andypugh> And it seems, other stuff :-)
[23:54:51] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moog_Inc
[23:55:28] <YK> andypugh: Based on what I've read, proportional servovalves go around 1000-2000 dollars each. (if I'm mistaken and they are much less costly, I would consider using them). I've done Places>Home>emc2>config>sim>. Which file should I ponder over?
[23:55:54] <andypugh> $2000 would be a cheap one...
[23:56:12] <PCW> Presumable because they can open /close in mS
[23:56:18] <andypugh> uS
[23:56:36] <PCW> Well Jolly good
[23:56:47] <andypugh> I was doing fatigue tests at kHz and 200kN
[23:57:27] <PCW> Hard to do that with a step motor, it this the original design?
[23:58:23] <YK> andypugh: Ah, so I was mistaken but in the opposite direction, more expensive... Ok, I'm getting it slightly more. So a file with a (dot) hal extension will do? (and is a proper HAL file all that is required?)
[23:58:56] <PCW> Yeah a servo and step hal file merged
[23:59:44] <YK> PCW: Yeah servovalves were considered but their costs were prohibitive, so the original design began with stepper-operated flow valves for velocity control.
[23:59:51] <andypugh> I don't actually know where the configs live on an installed system. They get copied to your User space as you load them, but the originals probably live in usr/share or somewhere