#emc | Logs for 2011-08-06

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[03:35:43] <nicko> well, VFD is working
[03:35:49] <nicko> spindle is spinning
[03:35:58] <nicko> only got it to 3000rpm
[03:36:09] <nicko> with no cooling I dont want to go any higher
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[03:54:58] <hatch789> pcw_home: you there?
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[04:08:58] <hatch789> pcw_home: pcw are you online? -Trying to complete my MESA order for my parts. I have sent 2 e-mails already.
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[11:42:11] <bpuk> Good afternoon
[11:44:27] <bpuk> I'm in the middle of converting a lathe over to emc2 through a 5i20 and have managed to get myself somewhat confused with making the optoisolation circuits - does anyone feel up to checking the circuits I'm using and doing a quick sanity check to see what I'm doing wrong?
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[11:53:28] <KochBlau> hi yall, i do have a question
[11:53:38] <KochBlau> is there any way that i can test emc without having to install the rt kernel?
[11:53:52] <KochBlau> what i mean is: without the rtai kernel patch and so on?
[11:54:04] <KochBlau> not for milling, just to see it the stepper motors move when connected to my parport
[11:54:21] <KochBlau> i'm thinking of writing an application that directly talks to /dev/parport0, but thought maybe there's a emc way to do it?
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[13:01:20] <jthornton> AFAIK you need the rt for anything other than the sim
[13:02:20] <jthornton> you can use HAL to run a stepper but you need RT kernel for it to run
[13:02:23] <jthornton> oh he is not even here
[13:02:33] <jthornton> I should look first
[13:03:02] <jthornton> bpuk: you still here?
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[13:15:44] <bpuk> just got back (keep nipping to the workshop)
[13:16:19] <jthornton> I converted my Hardinge CHNC using a 5i20
[13:16:54] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge.xhtml
[13:17:20] <jthornton> I'll convert my ACAD wiring diagrams to pdf after breakfast if it will help you out
[13:18:50] <bpuk> that'd be fantastic, I've got quite a lot of it working (steppers, limit switch inputs, tool changer encoder) - but I've hit a stumbling block with the main axis power relay
[13:20:15] <jthornton> how's that
[13:20:38] <jthornton> and I'll be having breakfast in a bit so I'll be gone for a short while
[13:20:47] <bpuk> heh, no worries
[13:21:02] <bpuk> or pretty much any output that's being run through an optoisolater - I'm driving them as per http://derp.co.uk/e877b
[13:22:07] <bpuk> and what's happening at the moment is that the opto isn't switching - so the relay activates when the computer turns on, and won't turn off when I toggle the output (P2-39)
[13:22:57] <jthornton> be back in a bit
[13:23:04] <bpuk> righteo
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[13:33:24] <pcw_home> bpuk please read the 5I20 manual section about power up state and driving OPTOs,
[13:33:25] <pcw_home> you must use active low outputs and open drain mode to drive OPTOs referred to 5V
[13:34:51] <bpuk> I spotted that bit earlier, W1 is to the right, supplying 3.3v as VCC
[13:39:44] <pcw_home> so OPTO+ anode to 3.3V and OPTO- to output pin?
[13:40:07] <bpuk> yes, with a 330R resister between anode and 3.3V
[13:40:57] <jthornton> pcw_home: yesterday you said "PCW> Yeah deltas (dp/dt in this case) should always be calculated (so you dont get big ones)" what do you mean by dp/dt?
[13:41:36] <pcw_home> Delta Position/Delta Time = velocity
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[13:43:11] <bpuk> gah, my turn to go afk again. Back in half an hour
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[13:43:49] <jthornton> ok, I'm still struggling to understand what is giving the other guy the large error that I'm not getting when I run thc.comp
[13:45:36] <pcw_home> Looking at it it looks like the first cycle that the torch is off you would not adjust offset by a small number but rather but the current Z_in number
[13:46:43] <pcw_home> (because lastZ was set to 0), rather than the previous z_in
[13:47:11] <jthornton> ok, now I understand thanks
[13:47:18] <pcw_home> so if the commanded Z in was 0 there would be no error or jumo
[13:47:55] <jthornton> yep, and I bet mine is close to 0 when the torch goes off
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[13:51:24] <pcw_home> Probably the forum guy (forgot his name) "hunting" problem coul be fixed by lowering the correction velocity
[13:51:26] <pcw_home> or perhaps even better, making the correction velocity proportion to the voltage error and mutiplying this by a gain term (P)
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[13:55:59] <jthornton> right now I'm just adding in the correction to the offset, once per cycle
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[13:57:33] <jthornton> so for example if the volts are high then voltage_error = volts - volts_requested
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[13:58:23] <jthornton> then offset -= (voltage_error * p_gain)
[14:00:38] <pcw_home> Right a velocity mode P loop so for small errors s does not drive back and forth at full speed
[14:02:56] <jthornton> ah ok, It will be tomorrow before I can test it I'm moving my plasma table to the new shop so it is in pieces
[14:03:36] <jthornton> thanks for the help Peter
[14:05:26] <pcw_home> (its not help until it works :-)
[14:05:36] <jthornton> lol
[14:06:58] <bpuk> and back
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[14:09:20] <pcw_home> bpuk: sure you dont have a NPN Darlington, that might have the behavior you've seen
[14:10:21] <Loetmichel> re vom einkaufen
[14:12:46] <bpuk> it's definitely a TIP125 (PNP) after the opto - when I rewired to to use a ground reference the opto switched happily (just inverted)
[14:15:11] <pcw_home> Also that circuit would be marginal at 5V ( since the Darlington would have a 1.2V or so saturation voltage your relay would only get 3.8V)
[14:16:10] <pcw_home> ground reference not good as it will power up on
[14:17:49] <pcw_home> sure you have 3.3? I would use 5V and open drain mode
[14:18:34] <bpuk> I'm sure I've got 3.3V at the moment, I can switch over to 5V easily enough - just not sure how to set it all up for open drain mode
[14:18:42] <JT-Shop> pcw_home: I assume some kind of cap on the amount of correction would be good?
[14:31:30] <pcw_home> Yep
[14:34:26] <pcw_home> bpuk: at either voltage you should be able to put a voltmeter across pin49 power and an output pin.
[14:34:28] <pcw_home> This voltage should be 0 at startup an until you drive the output pin low (on)
[14:34:43] <pcw_home> and until
[14:36:30] <bpuk> hmm, I've checked from pin 49 to ground, and from output pin to ground - havent't checked across those two yet
[14:37:50] <pcw_home> You need to set all outputs to is_output and is_opendrain and also set invert_output (or output invert I forget which)
[14:38:32] <bpuk> but no circuit changes should be required (beyond moving W1 to 5V)? (I am doing the setup in pncconf so far, so that's quick enough to do)
[14:40:41] * Loetmichel is just back from ikea, with two gooseneck-lights in the box... 9,95 Eur for 3W LED and slim head: nice for machines -> http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12210
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[14:41:56] <pcw_home> No
[14:42:31] <bpuk> right-o - I'll go try that, I really should run a network cable out to the workshop at some point.
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[14:45:39] <Valen> getting your EMC box online will make a big difference
[14:47:41] <jthornton> bpuk: this is my Hardinge conversion if it helps any http://gnipsel.com/shop/hardinge/hardinge.xhtml
[14:52:35] <bpuk> jthornton: I've bookmarked that one to have a dig through :)
[14:54:34] <bpuk> pcw_home: Right, set all outputs to open drain, inverted the outputs - reading 0V between pin 49 and pin 39 (the output I'm looking at) on powerup before firmware is loaded. reading 5v between those when the output is true, reading 1.82v between those when output is false (I hope I haven't just flipped those around in my head). Relay is on at poweron, does not switch off when switching the output
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[14:59:44] <pcw_home> So looks like you did not invert the output or get open drain mode
[15:00:26] <Tom_itx> doesn't open drain require pullups?
[15:02:27] <pcw_home> No I guess you got the invert (so true is on)
[15:02:29] <pcw_home> Yes 5I20 has 3.3K pullups (although for current operated load like OPTOs the pullup is not stricktly required)
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[15:04:15] <pcw_home> bpuk so if you got 1.82v OPTO drive when off (~3.2V output) this sure sounds like open drain mode was not selected
[15:05:03] <bpuk> hmm, I'll go check the .hal file to double-check, should it show up as open drain in the dmesg outputs?
[15:07:41] <pcw_home> I think only the HAL file
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[15:18:19] <bpuk> you were right, is_opendrain was not set (for some reason setting outputs to O Drain in pncconf does not save them in the hal file). It's now set, reading 0V/5V in either case. no change in relay behaviour
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[15:25:12] <pcw_home> Well if you've got 0,5V across your OPTO thats about all the FPGA card can do
[15:26:18] <Tom_itx> get a different relay or put a transistor or mosfet in front of it
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[15:27:12] <Loetmichel> bah! its raining cats and dogs over here: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12213
[15:27:21] <pcw_home> OPTO output backwards might act that way
[15:28:40] * anonimasu yawns
[15:28:40] <pcw_home> And its 55F here (~12C) It was a lot hotter in February
[15:28:44] <anonimasu> spindle motor mounted ^_^
[15:29:24] <anonimasu> soon vfd wiring
[15:29:32] <bpuk> hmm, it would. something very strange is going on, I think I'll go check the circuit again and hope that I've miswired something when I switched from ground reference to VCC reference
[15:29:59] <bpuk> Tom_itx: I have a transistor in front of it :) I've had the relay switching when referenced to ground - all the problems have started when I rewired to re-reference it
[15:30:33] <bpuk> pcw_home: thanks for your help, it really does look like I've made a stupid wiring error somewhere, time to grab the multimeter
[15:31:16] <pcw_home> maybe you have an unintended common across the isolation
[15:33:28] <anonimasu> tho the 5.5kw vfd and 2.2kw motor might be a bit too big.
[15:35:19] <anonimasu> but then again the previous vfd was undersize.
[15:36:39] <pcw_home> bbl drafted for making breakfast
[15:37:12] <Tom_itx> taking orders?
[15:37:23] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: how's it going?
[15:37:29] <Tom_itx> good
[15:40:01] <anonimasu> here too, im slowly getting stuff togther
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[16:11:12] <helpemc> hi
[16:11:39] <helpemc> can anyone help me I have a problem with parallel port addresses ?
[16:12:14] <jthornton> just ask the question
[16:12:32] <helpemc> i was working fine and suddenly im getting a parallel port error during startup
[16:12:40] <helpemc> lspci -v doesnt show address
[16:13:01] <helpemc> it just shows memory range
[16:13:07] <helpemc> no IO address range
[16:13:30] <helpemc> i have moschip 9865 pci card
[16:13:51] <helpemc> tried installing moschip drivers, and also tried re-installing ubuntu with no success
[16:14:06] <Tom_itx> you can't hardcode it to an address can you?
[16:14:29] <helpemc> i cant find the parallel port address with lspci -v
[16:14:42] <helpemc> and the old address isnt working, its giving me an error during emc startup
[16:15:02] <Tom_itx> 2f8 3f8 3bc i think is what they should be
[16:15:25] <helpemc> i used to use 0xe480 and it worked yesterday, dont know what happened today
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[16:16:01] <Tom_itx> can you fix that in the bios?
[16:16:43] <helpemc> im using a PCI card parallel port
[16:17:03] <Tom_itx> some allow you to set pci slots
[16:17:10] <Tom_itx> to use certain resources
[16:17:28] <helpemc> tried looking but there seems nothing about pci slots, just the support for plug and play os
[16:17:49] <helpemc> i have an asus blitz formula mb
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[16:20:13] <helpemc> so the only way to find parallel port address is with lspci ? isnt there another way that might work for me ?
[16:20:40] <pcw_home> Motherboard or PCI port
[16:20:46] <pcw_home> ?
[16:22:32] <helpemc> pci port
[16:23:19] <pcw_home> lspci should show it
[16:24:10] <helpemc> its not showing address, just four lines, i will paste them one by one not to flood
[16:24:36] <helpemc> 05:01.0 Parallel controller: NetMos Technology PCI 9865 Multi-I/O Controller (prog-if 03)
[16:24:42] <helpemc> Subsystem: Device a000:2000
[16:24:48] <helpemc> Flags: bus master, medium devsel, latency 64, IRQ 10
[16:24:54] <helpemc> Memory at fe9fd000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K]
[16:24:59] <helpemc> Memory at fe9fc000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K]
[16:25:05] <helpemc> Capabilities: [48] Power Management version 2
[16:25:07] <helpemc> thats it
[16:26:36] <Tom_itx> not all parport boards will work i think
[16:26:46] <helpemc> it was working yesterday!
[16:26:49] <Tom_itx> older ones are by far better imo\
[16:26:50] <helpemc> and the day before
[16:27:06] <Tom_itx> software selectable
[16:27:11] <Tom_itx> it is subject to change
[16:27:22] <helpemc> ...
[16:27:28] <helpemc> well thnx anyway
[16:27:29] <helpemc> bb
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[16:30:09] <jthornton> well he is gone but lspci -v shows more
[16:30:30] <jthornton> nevermind
[16:30:50] * jthornton goes back to being a plumber
[16:30:56] <pcw_home> Yeah forgot the -v
[16:31:25] <jthornton> I scrolled up and saw he used -v
[16:32:03] <pcw_home> weird, no I/O addresses but memory addresses...
[16:35:35] <pcw_home> Well enough of this high tech time to talk to the girls (galine and ovine)
[16:35:45] <pcw_home> bbl
[16:44:38] <Danimal_garage> mornin
[16:45:03] <Danimal_garage> jthornton: you clog the toilet again?
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[16:46:33] <jthornton> lol, installing a RO unit
[16:46:56] <Danimal_garage> ah
[16:47:01] <Danimal_garage> what brand?
[16:47:18] <Danimal_garage> i got one too, great for anodizing
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[16:47:47] <jthornton> waterworld
[16:47:52] <Danimal_garage> ah
[16:47:59] <Danimal_garage> i have a Nimbus
[16:48:05] <jthornton> I got it from a fellow brewer
[16:48:07] <Danimal_garage> my buddy works there
[16:48:17] <Danimal_garage> nice
[16:48:22] <Danimal_garage> how many gallons?
[16:48:29] <jthornton> 50/day
[16:48:47] <Jymmm> jthornton: lush
[16:49:02] <Danimal_garage> i meant the tank, does it have a storage tank?
[16:49:19] <jthornton> any idea what cars might have a 4 x 100mm bolt pattern rear wheel drive axle?
[16:49:31] <jthornton> yea, about 3 gallons I think
[16:50:05] <jthornton> it has a pump that will fill the tank more than without it
[16:50:23] <Danimal_garage> jthornton: chevette
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[16:51:38] <jthornton> ah ok
[16:51:48] <Danimal_garage> nice, i have a 5 gallon tank, seems to work fine.
[16:52:43] <Danimal_garage> chevette might be one of the only ones in this country
[16:53:10] <jthornton> The Chevette was probably the last rear-wheel drive FR subcompact built in the world (produced until 1998 in Colombia < from wikipedia
[16:53:29] <jthornton> now I have something to ask for, thanks
[16:53:31] <Danimal_garage> maybe an early cellica or corrola
[16:54:19] <Danimal_garage> the chevette has a troque tube you'll probably have to cut off
[16:54:25] <Danimal_garage> torque*
[16:54:35] <Danimal_garage> it might unbolt, i dunno, i forgot
[16:55:03] <jthornton> do you think it has the type of rear end with no cover on the back side?
[16:55:23] <Danimal_garage> possibly, i don't remember
[16:55:57] <Danimal_garage> i havent had one in probably 11 years
[16:56:04] <jthornton> looks like up to about 85' the corolla was rear wheel drive
[16:57:00] <Danimal_garage> it's not 4x100 though
[16:57:06] <Danimal_garage> 4x114.3
[16:57:12] <Danimal_garage> the chevette was 4x100
[16:57:24] <Danimal_garage> if i remember right
[16:57:32] <jthornton> either would work
[16:58:29] <jthornton> I just don't want a 6 bolt truck rear axle from a truck
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[16:59:23] <Danimal_garage> 4x100 wheels are going to have a fwd offset
[16:59:42] <jthornton> what is a fwd offset?
[16:59:50] <Danimal_garage> front wheel drive
[17:00:04] <jthornton> ok
[17:00:09] <Danimal_garage> so they wont be verry deep
[17:00:51] <jthornton> ok, thanks
[17:00:58] <jthornton> gotta run for a bit
[17:01:02] <jthornton> ttul
[17:01:16] <Danimal_garage> might look goofy, i'd go with a 5 bolt so you can get rwd wheels
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[17:01:30] <Danimal_garage> ok ttyl
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[17:07:46] <jthornton> what car would have 5 bolt?
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[17:10:47] * jthornton is passing by from time to time and will read back
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[17:34:28] <bpuk> pcw_home: I've not been able to find anything miswired in my original circuit, but set up a fresh set of components on a spare breadboard and the circuit works perfectly, I'm guessing I must have blown one of the components. I'll strip the components off the board and start again. Thanks again for the help :)
[17:41:49] <pcw_home> NP, maybe you fried the optos somehow so they were always leaky
[17:43:55] <IchGuckLive> jthornton: at the weehls 5bolds ?
[17:44:03] <bpuk> entirely possible - when I started that board I was a wee bit out of practice - the first dozen or so joints were... erm... not exactly brilliant. Right, back to it
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[17:46:06] <IchGuckLive> jthornton: VW Volkswagen Golf3 passat,Astra
[17:48:38] <Danimal_garage> jthornton: mustangs, camaros, merkurs, etc
[17:49:12] <Danimal_garage> rangers jeeps, s-10's
[17:49:31] <Danimal_garage> explorers
[17:50:48] <Danimal_garage> 5x4 3/4 and 5x4.5 for all of those, tons of wheel options
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[18:21:44] <hatch789> pcw_home: hey PCW are you online? I have an order for you
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[18:27:29] <pcw_home> I am neither empowered nor competent to take sales orders, that needs an email to sales@mesanet.com (or a call on Monday)
[18:30:40] <hatch789> pcw_home: I have sent 2 e-mails already
[18:31:24] <pcw_home> To sales@mesanet.com?
[18:32:58] <Danimal_garage> yay, home and limit switches hooked up and working
[18:33:47] <Danimal_garage> just need to wait till the mail comes for my 7i33 so i can wire up the servos, then tuning time!
[18:37:07] <anonimasu> my vfd exploded -_-
[18:37:26] <Danimal_garage> ouch
[18:37:30] <Danimal_garage> how?
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[18:51:47] <hatch789> pcw_home: yes to sales@mesanet.com
[18:53:39] <jthornton> Danimal_garage: thanks
[18:54:03] <anonimasu> Danimal_garage: I guess it was faulty
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[18:54:29] <anonimasu> Danimal_garage: I had the current limit and everything set, and i applied power to the start input and the output stage disintegrated
[18:54:45] <anonimasu> (it has overcurrent protection/wiring fault protection and everything built in)
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[18:55:14] <pcw_home> hatch789 : Its possible, we've been short handed, Lily is sick
[18:55:34] <pcw_home> it had...
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[18:56:57] * anonimasu sighs
[18:57:03] <anonimasu> the damn output stage shouldnt have blewn up.
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[19:14:52] <anonimasu> what a pita.
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[19:53:11] <tom3p> using a 10000 nS thread, gets a 610uS sampling period on the LTC1286, so, i wont be able to see useful info during discharges of <1000uSecs.
[19:53:12] <tom3p> so its back to hdwr and away from hal execpt to read the hdwr.
[19:53:17] <tom3p> :(
[19:54:32] <anonimasu> tom3p: how about buffering stuff up and having hal poll a chunk at a time?
[19:57:02] <tom3p> well, i figure i can use hdwr simpler, its a software (hal) window comparator with ~640uSec capture time thats the problem now, and a simple hdwr window comparator (hi low inmiddle) should be readable every clock cycle
[19:57:28] <tom3p> that data could be buffered/averaged/trended as needs be without this damnable sampling time
[19:58:19] <tom3p> i think (could be wrong) that a 10uSec thread is damn fast on emc
[19:58:49] <tom3p> a 5uSec thread kills most of my machines and 3uSec kills the DM150
[19:59:45] <anonimasu> :/
[20:01:11] <tom3p> is is true? maybe i'm wrong
[20:04:41] <andypugh> I am confused.
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[20:05:01] <andypugh> Ah, are you bit-bashing serial through the LTC?
[20:05:22] <tom3p> um, im reading the ltc1286 as fast as i can
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[20:05:55] <andypugh> Serial data?
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[20:06:08] <tom3p> yes serial
[20:06:10] <pcw_home> SPI
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[20:06:48] <andypugh> SPI through Mesa hardware?
[20:07:02] <tom3p> its connected to a 10uS (10000nS period) thread and its START bit ( CS) occurs every 610uSecs (6120 to 640, some jitter apprrently )
[20:07:07] <tom3p> no, thru parport
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[20:07:51] <tom3p> (610 to 640uSec some jitter apparently)
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[20:08:44] <andypugh> OK, so the problem is that the LTC chip simply can't talk fast enough
[20:08:46] <andypugh> ?
[20:09:42] <pcw_home> ~16 KHz max conversion rate
[20:10:36] <tom3p> yep, so i remove the LTC ( which converts analog to digital then fed to hal to decide if > < = some thresholds by a hal_window comp...)
[20:10:37] <tom3p> replace that with hdwr window comp and gain speed... good way to go?
[20:11:00] <andypugh> I am still fuzzy on what the problem is.
[20:12:16] <tom3p> the data seen by the LTC is way out of whack to the actual data ( tek scope vs halscope) this is due to 'aliasing', the sampling rate is way slower than the event
[20:13:00] <andypugh> So, EMC2 communications is fast enough, but the chip doesn't convert fast enough?
[20:13:21] <pcw_home> the LTC should be able to run at a say 300 uSec or so servo thread with 20 Usec per bit = 10 usec base thread (looks like 14 clocks needed)
[20:14:05] <tom3p> um no, i think both are too slow ( and 15 are seen in the screenshots AFTER the longish start CS signal ) and
[20:14:11] <pcw_home> or as fast as EMC can sample with hardware clock/sreg
[20:14:30] <pcw_home> what input bandwidth do you need?
[20:15:02] <tom3p> i agree it should be nearer 300 uSecs but 610 to 640 is whats seen on halscope and i dont get inbetween the comp and halscope, this is what happens with 10000nS thread
[20:15:48] <andypugh> If all you are doing with the data is a wcomp to bit-level data then I agree that it might as well be in hardware.
[20:16:34] <anonimasu> wouldnt it be alot better using a paralell chip?
[20:17:14] <tom3p> haha 'what input bandwidth do you need' sorry that question is past me... I think it needs to be faster because halscopes output is unrecognizeable until i slow the events down to 20 mS period
[20:17:44] <pcw_home> But to avoid aliasing you have to limit you input bandwidth (filter) to 1/2 your sample rate
[20:18:29] <pcw_home> Or if this is a peak value, sample it synchronously with your signal
[20:18:54] <pcw_home> what are you trying to measure?
[20:19:03] <tom3p> pcw_home, yes, i'm getting that, and think i need to get rid of sample rate and goto analog hdwr , its immediate
[20:19:10] <tom3p> and yes i need to trigger it
[20:19:21] <tom3p> and its a discharge voltage
[20:19:41] <tom3p> the average value ( after i get data to average)
[20:20:17] <pcw_home> So you need and external A-D thats triggered by an external source
[20:20:48] <pcw_home> and perhaps averages many samples before presenting this to EMC
[20:20:56] <tom3p> will be fed to op window comp to get over/below/between 2 thresholds and i simply change the current position by +1 unit, -2units or 0 units respectively
[20:21:02] <tom3p> sorry your way ahead of me
[20:21:17] <tom3p> i really dont need a digital value
[20:21:28] <tom3p> just the > < = is enuf
[20:22:05] <tom3p> it would be nice to use Hal for all, but not at the price of speed
[20:23:25] <anonimasu> we need a mesa board that can link to hal and do realtime stuff faster.
[20:23:32] <anonimasu> *hint*
[20:25:50] <tom3p> oh heres an idea, how about mesa hal-components? a libray of mesa-and mesa-window-compare, that we build with, and some app generates a bit file for us?
[20:25:50] <tom3p> maybe thats the same idea
[20:25:50] <pcw_home> If you just need a comparator, you could use an external comparator and a PWM gen to generate the reference voltage
[20:25:50] <tom3p> oh, the pwm for the threshold is good idea, thx!
[20:25:51] <anonimasu> tom3p: microprocessor core on the mesa fpga... :)
[20:25:58] <tom3p> anonimasu, yeah
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[20:26:14] <tom3p> or even analog bits
[20:26:30] <pcw_home> Its already there (the bit-twiddler module)
[20:27:02] * anonimasu has no remote clue what that is
[20:28:00] <tom3p> tomp3p googles the bit twiddler and i now theres great stuff in there, not quite up to using it yet ;)
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[20:28:19] <pcw_home> A simple 8 bit processor with 32 bit mailbox registers for host interface and variable amount of GPIO
[20:29:21] <pcw_home> 50 MIPs on Spartan3 33 on spartan2
[20:29:40] <anonimasu> tom3p: that might fit the stuff you want to do even better..
[20:30:24] <tom3p> how do i read this about the bittwiddler, it shows as ascii dump of pdf file ? http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/id,3610/catid,27/func,fb_pdf/lang,english/
[20:30:57] <anonimasu> it's readble on windows
[20:32:34] <tom3p> pcw_home, sounds great, i think i need to begin simpler, then hand a working design to an engineer and say 'make this in silicon' ;)
[20:32:45] <andypugh> Try http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,3610/catid,27/
[20:33:37] <tom3p> i used google docs 'quick view', that worked (ffox namaroa )
[20:33:52] <anonimasu> isnt there a fast spi adc?
[20:34:41] <tom3p> andypugh, thx that works fine
[20:36:52] <tom3p> anonimasu, the LTC is rated pretty fast, (12kHz conversions ) but you cant get fast enuf clocks out of hal to take advantage of its speed. so back to hdwr
[20:37:17] <anonimasu> yeah, but if you could do spi, it might be faster..
[20:39:37] <tom3p> ok, i dont know what spi is then, the ltc is just S not PI ;)
[20:41:24] <anonimasu> hehe it's a serial interface of some kind popular for Ác's
[20:42:15] <andypugh> If you have any Mesa hardware, we have drivers for SPI and serial UARTs. All a bit experimental, but they seem to work.
[20:42:52] <tom3p> the bit twiddler looks great its a full microprocessor built inside a 'anythin-io' board, and seems to exist in parallel with hostmot2
[20:43:27] <anonimasu> andypugh: yep, that was my idea it might be alot faster then manually clocking the adc
[20:48:39] <pcw_home> LTC does SPI
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[20:52:58] <pcw_home> its a little awkward on a 8 bit uC to do >8 bit shift data in /out but probably no more than 30 instructions in the loop so 1.6 MHz shift rate bit-banging
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[20:59:23] <andypugh> tom3p: There are faster chips. http://www.linear.com/product/LTC1402
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[21:00:34] <anonimasu> http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/IMAG1571.jpg
[21:00:35] <anonimasu> :)
[21:00:46] <andypugh> There is no reason that the SPI acquisition couldn't run in the base thread, so you get a full 14 bits evey 10,000nS
[21:01:39] <andypugh> anonimasu: Looks sturdy. It also looks under-geared.
[21:02:02] <anonimasu> andypugh: well, it's the stock gearing
[21:02:15] <andypugh> Is there gearing in the head?
[21:02:19] <anonimasu> no
[21:02:29] <andypugh> How many motor poles?
[21:02:33] <anonimasu> it's a 2.2kw motor, but plan is to upgrade it
[21:02:41] <anonimasu> 6
[21:02:52] <andypugh> Ah, 6 poles makes a difference.
[21:03:01] <anonimasu> but they are paralell wired right now
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[21:03:22] <anonimasu> (it came that way)
[21:03:38] <andypugh> I would still be tempted to run it at 150hZ through an inverter, with a bigger belt reduction.
[21:03:54] <anonimasu> I am going to :)
[21:03:57] <anonimasu> but my vfd exploded
[21:04:10] <andypugh> That sounds... unfortunate.
[21:04:24] <anonimasu> well, going to order a new one monday
[21:04:25] <anonimasu> :)
[21:04:44] <anonimasu> the issue is that the current limit and stuff should have kicked in but the drive stage just disintegrated
[21:04:53] <anonimasu> plan is to get 6k rpm at the spindle
[21:05:19] <anonimasu> (not with chuck)
[21:05:40] <anonimasu> for turning smaller stuff
[21:06:04] <anonimasu> (this is the machine which the big servos are going on)
[21:06:52] <anonimasu> going to paint the carriage eventually(maybe tomorrow)
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[21:08:27] <anonimasu> and fix the atc and fix the other axis motor mount :)
[21:09:44] <andypugh> Was the machine built as a CNC? It look like it was.
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[21:10:02] <anonimasu> yes
[21:10:09] <anonimasu> it's a denford easiturn
[21:10:20] <anonimasu> im amazed they really went all out dual ballnuts on all screws and stuff
[21:10:30] <tom3p> andypugh, the original question was... isnt a 10000nS thread pushing the limits? i found 5000 stalled most of my boxes and 3000 stalled the new super D150MO
[21:10:44] <anonimasu> (the x axis has three ball bearings in duplex)
[21:11:14] <andypugh> tom3p: Yes, 10,000 is fairly fast
[21:11:35] <tom3p> ok thanks, that really good info to know
[21:12:29] <pcw_home> if its just average data you are after, it better to average outside and present the averaged data to EMC
[21:12:31] <pcw_home> presumably you dont need data faster than the mechanics can act on it anyway...
[21:12:40] <pcw_home> its better
[21:12:44] <andypugh> What i am saying is that if you use the Mesa SPI interface you can get a full 14 bits (or more) every base thread, store them in a 100-element buffer , and then do the maths on the buffer in the servo thread.
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[21:14:02] <anonimasu> maybe next week it'll be moving under servo control :)
[21:14:26] <andypugh> (Though I make that assertion without considering the maximum Mesa SPI clock rate)
[21:15:07] <pcw_home> I think its ClockLow/2 (so 25 MHz for most, 16.6 for 5I20)
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[21:15:48] <anonimasu> my biggest issue is how to set up the atc(swap for a faster motor)
[21:16:05] <anonimasu> since it's dead slow
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[21:16:52] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/boring.jpg
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[21:18:44] <anonimasu> skunkworks: what kind of feeds and speeds do you use for that?
[21:18:44] <skunkworks> 300rpm .002 ipr
[21:19:01] <anonimasu> I have a issue that I need to do that kind of op on alot of parts with long overhang..
[21:19:04] <anonimasu> 200mm :/
[21:19:50] <tom3p> pcw_home, does the ucontroller in the bit-twiddler run 'programs'? do users write .asm for it?
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[21:20:53] <pcw_home> Hey skunkworks: a long while ago you posted a link to Florence and the machine on Youtube
[21:20:54] <pcw_home> Wanted to thank you, really enjoy her stuff.Heres a nice video without the big production aspect:
[21:20:56] <pcw_home> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvMfbfZKVbY&feature=related
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[21:21:59] <skunkworks> pcw_home: Cool - I have gotten a few people into her.
[21:22:06] <skunkworks> heh - that sounds bad
[21:22:13] <A2Sheds> pcw_home: IIRC is there an ETA for the lower cost PCIe anything IO board?
[21:22:14] <pcw_home> tom3p yes it runs programs (you have 2K of instruction space and I think 512 or 1K of RAM)
[21:22:32] <A2Sheds> I see the 3x20
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[21:22:49] <pcw_home> Soon got the 5I25 low cost PCI card going, PCIE is next
[21:22:51] <DaViruz> i expected some sort of machine that builds coffins
[21:22:54] <DaViruz> seriously
[21:23:10] <pcw_home> sorry OT
[21:23:24] <DaViruz> not at all, it was funny :)
[21:23:58] <anonimasu> pcw_home: dont worry about it im ot all the time :)
[21:25:06] <DaViruz> i dislike channels where OT is frowned upon, it kills creativity (and joy)
[21:25:25] <Danimal_garage> yay, got my 7i33
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[21:25:35] <Danimal_garage> one encoder is hooked up and working
[21:25:50] <A2Sheds> pcw_home: will it be Spartan 6 or??
[21:26:04] <pcw_home> Yeah sp6
[21:26:27] <DaViruz> this is sparta(n)
[21:26:39] <A2Sheds> ok, how much space on the FPGA will be left after the PCIe block is used?
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[21:27:58] <pcw_home> I will probably not use the PCIE core as its problematic licensing wise, I will use s pcie/pci bridge and a PCI core in the FPGA
[21:28:19] <A2Sheds> pcw_home: also wondering what the footprint of the board will be
[21:28:52] <pcw_home> Low profile like the 5I25, also some external versions
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[21:29:06] <tom3p> thx all, bye
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[21:29:23] <A2Sheds> http://opencores.org/project,pcie_mini
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[21:30:11] * anonimasu looks at seco boring head
[21:30:12] <anonimasu> s
[21:31:06] <DaViruz> lottery winnings?
[21:31:47] <pcw_home> Still looks like it uses Xilinx soft IP
[21:32:31] <pcw_home> Like to avoid that and all core generator stuff
[21:35:12] <anonimasu> im just gonna make a boring head out of the 300mm iso30 rough blank..
[21:35:26] <A2Sheds> I have some potential projects to design pico-itx or nano-itx board with the Fusion APU's
[21:36:16] <anonimasu> and make fixed size heads for it that will fit lathe inserts.
[21:36:38] <pcw_home> fusion is AMDs "Atom"?
[21:37:23] <A2Sheds> AMD Fusion with mini-PCIe, better than Atom, multicore GPU and CPU on same die
[21:37:56] <A2Sheds> http://sites.amd.com/us/fusion/apu/Pages/fusion.aspx
[21:38:39] <A2Sheds> AMD will mostly be Fusion or Bulldozer parts by the end of the year
[21:42:37] <pcw_home> OK so s SOC sort of like the Atom E600 (I think thats it)
[21:45:03] <A2Sheds> yeah, with desktop GPU performance
[21:45:03] <A2Sheds> http://www.amd.com/us/Documents/49573_G-Series_vs_D525_flyer.pdf
[21:48:12] <A2Sheds> I'm trying to develop some standard machine control platforms with Fusion for flatbed printers and materials deposition systems
[21:49:37] <Danimal_garage> w00t, one axis moving and tuned
[21:49:47] <Danimal_garage> 2 more to go
[21:49:48] <A2Sheds> the nice thing about Fusion is coreboot for firmware, so no SMI, no surprises from BIOS
[21:52:06] <pcw_home> Yeah most of the Atom BIOS's seem to suck
[21:52:21] <jthornton> nice!
[21:53:08] <A2Sheds> and Intel tries to kill any coreboot project that dares
[21:53:45] <A2Sheds> they actually told embedded board co's in the EU to stop using coreboot
[21:54:41] <A2Sheds> and AMD actually provides support for coreboot, they send patches for every new cpu and chipset
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[21:59:03] * anonimasu designs a boring head
[21:59:27] <A2Sheds> sounds exciting
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[22:00:40] <anonimasu> I need to make a 60mm hole ~230mm deep
[22:01:25] <anonimasu> bearing surface
[22:01:52] <anonimasu> for some production shit at work
[22:09:51] <A2Sheds> into steel?
[22:09:57] <anonimasu> yes
[22:14:26] <anonimasu> http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/boring%20head.png
[22:15:03] <anonimasu> that's pretty much how it will be
[22:15:12] <anonimasu> they will be fixes size heads, with alignment pins set up inside
[22:15:23] <anonimasu> and will fit a seco boring insert holder
[22:17:27] <A2Sheds> Alibre looks similar to Solidworks
[22:18:18] <anonimasu> solidworks is better.
[22:18:18] <anonimasu> but for the price you cant beat alibre easily :)
[22:19:05] <A2Sheds> so you're not an open source hardliner that insists on Heeks-CAD
[22:19:39] <anonimasu> im on the limit of my assemblies of what alibre does comfortably at work
[22:19:58] <anonimasu> i dont see opensource competing with solidworks in another 25 years
[22:20:24] <anonimasu> I can save up the licence costs and spend more time designing parts ;)
[22:20:33] <A2Sheds> the only things I used that are closed source are my CAD tools
[22:20:56] <anonimasu> and in the end i spent the same armount of money to do what I needed to do + alot of time invested
[22:21:24] <anonimasu> i'd rather spend thoose money on good tools and have time left to work on other things
[22:21:48] <A2Sheds> there is no open application for multilayer design constrained PCB design, I'd be lost without cadence capture and allegro
[22:22:32] <anonimasu> i'd love to have solidworks at work but it's too expensive yet
[22:22:45] <anonimasu> and a good cam solution would be money better spent(one with nesting)
[22:22:51] <A2Sheds> unigraphics for mechanical, also run solidworks and proE
[22:22:52] <anonimasu> auto nesting like bobcad..
[22:23:08] * anonimasu is split what to choose
[22:23:13] <anonimasu> spurtcam/bobcad
[22:23:36] <anonimasu> one does auto nesting but only 4 axis and the other one does not but it had full 5 axis.
[22:23:41] <anonimasu> hsd..
[22:23:43] <anonimasu> has..
[22:24:28] <anonimasu> tho, given that I want 5 axis support(or 4 axis lathe)
[22:24:46] <anonimasu> so I can add live tooling once this lathe is done it's a heavy choice
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[22:26:12] <andypugh> skunkworks: Want a nice UPA4 boring head?
[22:26:46] <andypugh> None of that tedius stopping the spindle to change the diameter.
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[22:33:31] <skunkworks> ? upa4?
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[22:34:04] <skunkworks> andypugh: enco purchases from a while ago
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[22:54:59] <anonimasu> atom1: what's up?
[22:55:33] <Tom_itx> not much
[22:55:51] <Tom_itx> i can't see pastebin on these boxes so i had to boot linux
[22:56:01] <anonimasu> i see, did you see the boring head I drew?
[22:56:10] <atom1> yes
[22:56:16] <anonimasu> any ideas how to make it better?
[22:56:29] <atom1> i'll look closer in a bit
[22:56:36] <atom1> just gettin in here
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[23:02:28] <Tom_itx> anonimasu, you putting a dial on it?
[23:02:33] <Tom_itx> for fine adjustment
[23:02:50] <anonimasu> no, i'll manufacture the blanks for proper size
[23:03:15] <anonimasu> take a Ám off or two for adujstment, and swap inserts
[23:03:20] <Tom_itx> is that the tool holder as well?
[23:03:27] <anonimasu> i have a blank
[23:03:27] <Tom_itx> with retention knob in the end
[23:03:36] <anonimasu> it's just for illustration how it'll go
[23:03:38] <Tom_itx> holder blank?
[23:03:40] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:03:42] <Tom_itx> ok
[23:03:57] <Tom_itx> have you looked at em?
[23:04:15] <anonimasu> at other boring heads?
[23:04:19] <Tom_itx> the ones we used had a dial on them
[23:04:20] <Tom_itx> yes
[23:04:21] <anonimasu> http://www.industributiken.se/media/catalog/product/cache/1/small_image/135x135/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/4/0/4051763-2.jpg
[23:05:24] <Tom_itx> http://tooling.bigkaiser.com/boring-tools/?utm_campaign=boring_tools&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc
[23:05:55] <anonimasu> making heads for this one and facing them off for whatever dimension i need is cheaper then buying a boring head
[23:06:07] <anonimasu> and inserts are realtively cheap :)
[23:06:08] <Tom_itx> what about wear?
[23:06:26] <toastydeath> you can make a dead cheap boring head that has no adjustability if that's what you need
[23:06:29] <Tom_itx> what about temp changes throughout the day?
[23:06:34] <toastydeath> just make it like a lathe boring bar
[23:06:38] <toastydeath> and tap the insert around
[23:06:45] <toastydeath> insert/hss tool
[23:06:55] <Tom_itx> other than that, it looks fine
[23:07:03] <toastydeath> also, just make your own boring head
[23:07:10] <toastydeath> put a captive screw in
[23:07:13] <toastydeath> with a fine pitch
[23:07:20] <Tom_itx> toastydeath, did you see his drawing?
[23:07:20] <toastydeath> lathe style toolholder on the end, done
[23:07:31] <anonimasu> I were thinking of that, but making this kind of thing adjustable is extra work, i have a real boring head
[23:07:45] <toastydeath> did not see drawing, just the picture of the tool blank
[23:07:50] <Tom_itx> http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/boring%20head.png
[23:08:02] <anonimasu> also, then I need guides and a slide for mouning the tool on
[23:08:18] <Tom_itx> yeah, it gets more complicated for sure
[23:08:18] <toastydeath> anonimasu, my shop used to make boring heads with a captive screw and they're dead easy to make
[23:08:34] <toastydeath> the screw and the slide don't have to be accurate at all
[23:08:39] <anonimasu> and also, that removes more material and i dont know about rigidity
[23:08:52] <Tom_itx> bak in a while
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[23:10:17] <toastydeath> the rigidity is fine
[23:10:28] <toastydeath> but, it is your tool and your needs
[23:10:42] <anonimasu> issue is just that i might be boring flame cut holes
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[23:15:07] <JT-Shop> I need a boring head for some strange reason
[23:15:17] * anonimasu redesigns
[23:20:09] <anonimasu> I know how to make it adjustable question is it worth it?
[23:20:35] <anonimasu> one hole is 50mm another one 65mm
[23:21:05] <anonimasu> and if it takes longer to make adjustable then to cut blanks for the different sizes
[23:21:28] <andypugh> anonimasu: You can buy adjustable tool holders for boring "bars", ie the ones used for line boring that are actually bars.
[23:21:48] <andypugh> (in fact, if your holes are not blind, line-boring might be better)
[23:22:14] <anonimasu> and subbing them out is not a option either..
[23:23:58] <andypugh> anonimasu: Page 40-ish here (though the images have not come out well) http://www.innovativetoolsales.com/Rigibore_catalog_US.pdf
[23:24:11] <toastydeath> anonimasu, I think it's worth it, personally
[23:24:19] <anonimasu> subbing them out?
[23:24:22] <andypugh> Though it looks like you can buy a tool a lot like what you are drawing, direct.
[23:24:24] <toastydeath> because then you have an honest to god tool, and if you make it the standard shank size
[23:24:42] <toastydeath> you can use any harbor freight boring bar you care to put in there
[23:24:50] <toastydeath> for both itty bitty holes and larger ones
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[23:25:03] <anonimasu> I have a boring head already but it cant do 200mm deep holes
[23:25:05] <anonimasu> or more
[23:25:15] <toastydeath> what shank is it
[23:25:21] <Danimal_garage> sweet, all 3 axii are hooked up and tuned, and all limits are set
[23:25:24] <toastydeath> can you just make an extension?
[23:25:36] <anonimasu> for this one like 45mm
[23:26:22] <Danimal_garage> all i have to do now is hook up a couple relays for the spindle and servo power supply and the machine is done
[23:26:23] <anonimasu> toastydeath: we are talking about making maybe 30 of these holes in year
[23:27:18] <toastydeath> i mean it sounds like you are decided
[23:27:43] <anonimasu> and i have the blank already since 2 years ago
[23:27:46] <toastydeath> so just make it
[23:28:03] <skunkworks> Danimal_garage: videos!!!
[23:29:10] <andypugh> anonimasu: Maybe design your boring bar around one of these adjustable cartridges?
[23:29:10] <andypugh> http://www.ebay.com/itm/KENNAMETAL-BORING-CARTRIDGE-E102AP-/200553420665
[23:29:25] <andypugh> (Or try a web search for "boring cartridge"
[23:32:18] <anonimasu> that would be neat.
[23:33:49] <anonimasu> http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/boring_head2.png
[23:34:35] <anonimasu> dead easy to machine..
[23:34:45] <anonimasu> 15 minutes of machinetime and i'll be done :)
[23:35:41] <anonimasu> and seco insert holder
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[23:51:52] <jthornton> Danimal_garage: nice, you have a photo yet?
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[23:59:00] <jthornton> Danimal_garage: I've been doing some research and I think at this point I'm going to look for a ford 7.5
[23:59:12] <jthornton> " rear axle