#emc | Logs for 2011-07-30

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[00:00:16] -!- theos [theos!~theos@unaffiliated/theos] has joined #emc
[00:01:16] <L84Supper> yeah
[00:01:29] <L84Supper> if it's all there and working
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[00:03:22] <L84Supper> heh, I take old PCB design files from the early 90's and rerun them on my 6 core with the latest software, what used to takes days autoroutes in minutes
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[00:10:37] <elmo40> lol
[00:10:50] <elmo40> same software? only updated hardware?
[00:11:22] <elmo40> very interesting looking turret lathe: http://qurl.org/8B1
[00:11:51] <elmo40> adjustable height tool holders? for powered tools or something?
[00:14:09] <L84Supper> I come across those Warner & Swasey turret lathes often, $500 or just get it out of here
[00:14:33] <elmo40> $500? wow. they worth that much to scrap guy?
[00:15:05] <L84Supper> one guy had one with extra adapters still in the original package
[00:15:51] <L84Supper> probably worth more for scrap but I find them in the back of an old shop where you have to move 5 other machines or break thru a brick wall to get it out
[00:16:09] <elmo40> rough
[00:16:50] <elmo40> any money in this? http://qurl.org/9B1
[00:17:23] <L84Supper> Screw Machine Shop For Sale?
[00:17:33] <danimal_garage> PCW: what mode did you say the pwm had to be in for the 7i48?
[00:17:49] <Tom_itx> elmo40, probably not as much as there used to be
[00:18:05] <Tom_itx> things are either from china or plastic now
[00:18:45] <Tom_itx> the shop i worked in at the time had probably 100
[00:19:02] <elmo40> depends on what the capabilities of the machines are. size limitations, die availability, age of machines
[00:19:13] <elmo40> 100 what? screw machines?
[00:19:15] <Tom_itx> New Brittan, Brown & Sharp and one i forget
[00:19:16] <Tom_itx> yes
[00:19:24] <elmo40> what did they make?
[00:19:29] <Tom_itx> coleman parts
[00:19:32] <Tom_itx> lantern
[00:19:33] <Tom_itx> etc
[00:19:36] <elmo40> I see
[00:20:05] <L84Supper> the Google street view for that address makes it look like there is some sort of gravity well in the middle of the street
[00:20:23] <L84Supper> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Keele+St+%26+Finch+Ave+W,+Toronto,+ON+M3J,+Canada&ll=43.76278,-79.489903&spn=0.005734,0.006588&sll=43.763492,-79.490887&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&layer=c&cbp=13,277.42,,0,28.55&cbll=43.763492,-79.490887&gl=us&z=17&panoid=_LSCWf68_AcD0lQXmSiQeg
[00:20:25] <Tom_itx> there were some specialized kingsburys as well
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[00:21:25] <Tom_itx> L84Supper, it's a black hole
[00:21:46] <elmo40> ya. we lose many pets there
[00:21:58] <L84Supper> "Watch for Black Holes in Intersection"
[00:22:15] <elmo40> don't you see the signs?
[00:22:39] <elmo40> damn, that is an OLD photo
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[00:22:54] <elmo40> when gas was 'only' 98.7 cents/Litre
[00:23:04] <elmo40> now it is $1.31 >_<
[00:23:27] <elmo40> and we have the oil! guess who is the most screwed in the world... Canadians.
[00:23:46] <Tom_itx> worst post for sure
[00:24:42] <L84Supper> is the screw machine co behind the CASHMoney store?
[00:25:05] <elmo40> lol
[00:26:38] <Tom_itx> some ways i miss running those
[00:26:51] <Tom_itx> old ww2 era machines
[00:27:25] <L84Supper> http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Keele+St+%26+Finch+Ave+W,+Toronto,+ON+M3J,+Canada&ll=43.762864,-79.490791&spn=0.001443,0.001647&sll=43.763492,-79.490887&sspn=0.006295,0.006295&layer=c&cbp=13,185,,0,18.16&cbll=43.762545,-79.490746&gl=us&panoid=o-v0Pr0Q-YtWRfZJiXAmWQ&z=19
[00:27:42] <L84Supper> another black hole in front of the McDonalds
[00:27:55] <L84Supper> is Canada shrinking?
[00:27:59] <elmo40> they've been known to pop up from time to time.
[00:28:13] <elmo40> no, just too much crap build up in those areas
[00:30:27] <elmo40> http://qurl.org/AB1
[00:30:33] <elmo40> funny company name
[00:31:01] <elmo40> rotate left, there is a black hole there, too!
[00:31:06] <elmo40> and that is in NY
[00:31:09] <elmo40> ;)
[00:33:46] <danimal_garage> for the parameter.pwm_frequency, how should i enter the value? for 24mhz, do i just type 24?
[00:34:00] <danimal_garage> in hal
[00:34:00] <PCW> danimal_garage mode 2 (I'm pretty sure thats in the 7I48 manual)
[00:34:16] <PCW> 24 KHz
[00:34:22] <danimal_garage> PCW: didn't see it, but i figured it out, thanks!
[00:34:22] <PCW> 24000
[00:34:28] <danimal_garage> ok thanks
[00:34:46] <danimal_garage> i'm about ready to try it, a couple more minutes
[00:36:04] <PCW> if you have the PWM mode wrong the analog outputs will work OK in one direction a go nuts in the other
[00:36:14] <PCW> and go
[00:37:48] <danimal_garage> weird, it said parameter pwm_frequency not found
[00:38:11] <danimal_garage> better consult the manual
[00:38:43] <danimal_garage> hmm, looks right
[00:39:42] <PCW> Which bit file are you using?
[00:40:10] <PCW> Needs to be a 7I48 specific one (pinout wise)
[00:40:18] <elmo40> not bad price, eh? http://qurl.org/BB1
[00:40:34] <danimal_garage> sv12_2x7i48_72.bit
[00:40:42] <PCW> OK
[00:40:50] <danimal_garage> there werea couple for the 7i48, wasnt sure which one to use
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[00:42:59] <PCW> I dont think a wrong bitfile would physically hurt something but want to be cautious
[00:43:01] <PCW> we've had some boards come back damaged recently by home made cables (backwards)
[00:43:26] <Jymmm> heh
[00:43:36] <danimal_garage> ouch
[00:43:44] <elmo40> wow, someone is asking WAY too much for so little: http://qurl.org/CB1
[00:43:49] <danimal_garage> i made sure i changed the bit file before turning it on
[00:44:21] <danimal_garage> although it hasnt been on yet, still trying to figure out why it doesnt like that parameter
[00:44:26] <PCW> yeah a 7I29 and a 5I20, You can get away with shorting a few pins but a backwards cable shorts all the output pins
[00:45:31] <PCW> Did you look at dmesg, you may get that error if its the first 5I20 parameter you set (and the firmware did not load or some such)
[00:46:31] <danimal_garage> http://pastebin.com/ivj1kC4L
[00:46:52] <danimal_garage> it's definitely not the first parameter, it loaded a bunch before that
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[00:50:39] <PCW> its not a underline vs dash error is it
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[00:54:59] <elmo40> oohh $600. I like! http://qurl.org/DB1
[01:02:58] <PCW> Oh I see the error, you can only set the frequency once (its global)
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[01:05:08] <danimal_garage> for the whole board?
[01:05:20] <PCW> Yes
[01:06:35] <danimal_garage> that worked
[01:06:40] <PCW> all PWMGENs run from the same reference counter (and you are setting the frequency of this reference counter)
[01:06:55] <danimal_garage> gotcha
[01:07:03] <danimal_garage> thanks!
[01:07:14] <PCW> Welcome, bbl ttgh
[01:07:23] <PCW> long day
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[01:54:50] <Sairon> hello
[02:02:33] <nicko> heelooo
[02:02:42] <Sairon> howdy
[02:02:45] <Sairon> how goes?
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[02:04:17] <nicko> alright
[02:04:28] <nicko> battling through understanding this program
[02:04:32] <nicko> will get there one day !
[02:04:39] <Sairon> which one, emc?
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[02:10:02] <nicko> yup, well - the part involving setting up your physical system with a virtual system inside your puder
[02:10:19] <nicko> so many options - hard to know where to begin and end ...
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[02:14:44] <nicko> and then there is that pesky problem of actually having to 'wire' it all up - a missed copy and paste could mean some real wierdness huh
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[02:15:19] <Sairon> i see
[02:15:19] <Sairon> yeah, never touched that
[02:15:19] <Sairon> only played around with emc a couple times
[02:15:19] <Sairon> i'm mostly here because i'm a machinist
[02:15:20] <Sairon> and, i work alone now
[02:15:20] <Sairon> so i come here to chat with other machinists
[02:15:20] <Sairon> since i don't get that at work anymore
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[02:16:26] <Sairon> hmmm
[02:16:40] <Tom_itx> what machines?
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[02:17:51] <nicko> I'm not a machinist
[02:18:11] <nicko> I just own mills and lathes and use them regularly at work
[02:18:20] <Sairon> Tom: talking to me, or Nicko?
[02:18:31] <nicko> you I guess -
[02:18:32] <nicko> !
[02:18:35] <Sairon> nicko: what qualifies in your mind as a machinst?
[02:18:44] <nicko> but everyone is invited to read ;)
[02:19:18] <nicko> machinist >> someone who gets trade discounts at the local cutting tool shop
[02:19:35] <nicko> they wear overalls, and come in and out of the shop really fast
[02:20:11] <nicko> because they know exactly what they want
[02:20:29] <Sairon> heh, i see
[02:20:38] <Sairon> wish we had a shop like that around here
[02:20:45] <nicko> where is that ?
[02:20:46] <Sairon> i order most things over the internet
[02:20:50] <Sairon> Pittsburgh, PA
[02:20:51] <nicko> ahhh
[02:21:03] <nicko> I live in Auckland New Zealand
[02:21:11] <nicko> population around 1.5m
[02:21:26] <Sairon> msc and mcmaster carr treat me well
[02:21:37] <Sairon> and for other stuff i have other contacts
[02:21:54] <nicko> we have one main shop that specilizes - but others that do standard end mills and carbide insert carry on
[02:22:08] <Sairon> ok, hmm, neat
[02:22:15] <nicko> what is the population of pittsburgh ?
[02:22:19] <Sairon> not very big
[02:22:30] <Sairon> not even a million in the city proper
[02:22:41] <Sairon> but it's also a geographically small city
[02:22:51] <Sairon> i.e. didn't engulf it's neighbors as it grew
[02:23:03] <Sairon> so the region is a bunch of really small towns right beside each other
[02:23:17] <Tom_itx> Sairon what do / have you made or used
[02:23:18] <nicko> open up a shop!
[02:23:23] <Sairon> you know what, we do have two Grainger stores
[02:23:34] <Sairon> but they refuse to list what they stock
[02:23:50] <Sairon> so i refuse to take my chances at wasting time with them maybe not having what i want
[02:24:13] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: i got it working, however the servos move really rough
[02:24:15] <Sairon> Tom_it: hmmm... vertical mills, horizontal lathes, uh
[02:24:19] <danimal_garage> it ferrors
[02:24:19] <Sairon> surface grinders
[02:24:28] <Sairon> did some five axis work for a bit
[02:24:36] <Sairon> oh, yeah, did do some horizontal milling
[02:24:39] <Sairon> but not alot
[02:24:51] <Tom_itx> pittsburgh must be a big machining town
[02:24:53] <Tom_itx> i would think
[02:25:00] <Sairon> it is, to a degree
[02:25:02] <pcw_home> Are they velocity mode servos?
[02:25:15] <danimal_garage> i believe they're in current mode
[02:25:31] <Sairon> we even have an FDM machine in the shop i run now
[02:25:43] <Tom_itx> SadMan, what do they use to program the 5 axis ones?
[02:25:49] <Sairon> and a sinker EDM i need to fix up and get running
[02:26:16] <Tom_itx> all my cad cam will do is 3 axis
[02:26:19] <Tom_itx> but it's pretty dated
[02:26:20] <Sairon> Tom: five axis is still G-code, just with rotations about two axiis
[02:26:32] <pcw_home> That will make them a bit tougher to tune, I saw you had classic ladder in your hal file. If you dont need it i would remove it and set your servo period faster
[02:26:33] <Tom_itx> i know
[02:26:33] <Sairon> yeah, i still haven't learned to use a cam program
[02:26:37] <Tom_itx> i meant the cad cam
[02:26:41] <Sairon> i write all my stuff by hand
[02:26:50] <danimal_garage> wait i have to retune it now?
[02:26:56] <Sairon> i have mastercam and mastercam for solidworks at work
[02:27:02] <Sairon> but i never have time to mess with them
[02:27:18] <Tom_itx> i have smartcam which is quite similar to mastercam
[02:27:23] <Sairon> it's so much faster for me to type it out
[02:27:25] <Tom_itx> better in ways
[02:27:30] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: this board is in a machine that was running with the 7i33
[02:27:47] <danimal_garage> it was already tuned and running fine, i just wanted more channels
[02:27:55] <Sairon> simply because thats the only way i ever learned
[02:28:12] <Tom_itx> the types of stuff we ran you couldn't just type in
[02:28:21] <pcw_home> Oh same machine, should not be any different
[02:28:21] <Sairon> CAM generated code looks like spaghetti to me
[02:28:36] <Sairon> hmm, well...
[02:28:50] <Tom_itx> yeah unless you tune the post, it will
[02:28:55] <Sairon> i've done a few things by hand that people were surprised at
[02:29:07] <Sairon> but i'm also half decent at calculus and used to write software
[02:29:10] <Tom_itx> that's the nice thing about smartcam, it allows you to customize your own post for each machine
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[02:29:15] <Sairon> so, i think that helps
[02:29:22] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: it seems to pulsate
[02:29:38] <Tom_itx> danimal_garage, the pid is probably way off now
[02:29:39] <danimal_garage> the frequency should be 24000, right?
[02:30:01] <danimal_garage> Tom_itx: i dont see why it would be
[02:30:58] <Tom_itx> why is it pulsing then?
[02:31:29] <danimal_garage> all i did was swap out the mesa card for another, shouldn't effect the tuning, imo, but i'm not an expert
[02:31:43] <danimal_garage> Tom_itx: this isn't a tuning pulsation
[02:31:58] <Tom_itx> oh ok, i'll shut up then :D
[02:33:21] <Sairon> what sort of stuff do ya'll do, Tom_itx?
[02:34:22] <Tom_itx> not so much anymore. i have a sherline in my garage i like to play with some
[02:34:43] <Tom_itx> i did programming and ran a few machines in my friends shop
[02:34:51] <Tom_itx> wired most of them for him
[02:35:02] <Tom_itx> he since retired and sold his shop
[02:35:47] <Tom_itx> he started out in his garage with an old bridgeport tracer
[02:35:56] <pcw_home> you could try a different frequency to see if it makes any difference, say 48KHz
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[02:36:23] <Tom_itx> Sairon, http://www.clearwaterengineering.com/gallery.php
[02:36:28] <Tom_itx> that's the sort of stuff we did
[02:36:40] <Tom_itx> and his shop
[02:37:01] <pcw_home> Any pulsations or noise on the output should be pretty minimal, the 7I48 has better filtering than the 7I33
[02:37:19] <Sairon> so you don't do that anymore?
[02:37:26] <Tom_itx> not so much
[02:37:35] <Tom_itx> i do my own programming for my sherline
[02:37:46] <Tom_itx> and try to keep up to speed with it
[02:37:55] <Sairon> tracers are old school stuff :)
[02:38:00] <Tom_itx> yup
[02:38:03] <Sairon> hydraulic type?
[02:38:08] <Tom_itx> yes
[02:38:12] <Sairon> fun
[02:38:19] <Tom_itx> he also had a boss 5
[02:38:27] <Sairon> not familiar with that
[02:38:33] <Tom_itx> bridgeport cnc
[02:38:38] <Tom_itx> old
[02:38:48] <Sairon> oh, ok
[02:38:59] <Sairon> never used a bridgeport CNC
[02:39:01] <Tom_itx> he left with a shop full of Tree, Fadal and Okumas
[02:39:14] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: doesnt seem to effect it
[02:39:17] <Sairon> can't imagine it's much different than a VMC in operation
[02:39:19] <danimal_garage> it's on all channels
[02:39:25] <Tom_itx> no tool changer
[02:39:29] <Sairon> are those Tree's good machines?
[02:39:32] <Sairon> (good point)
[02:39:38] <Tom_itx> they were pretty rugged
[02:39:49] <Sairon> purchasing was asked to get quotes on machines
[02:39:51] <Tom_itx> we had one with an odd control on it but other than that the others were good
[02:39:59] <Sairon> for a new facility my company plans to build
[02:40:10] <Sairon> so they came to me with this list that was really generic
[02:40:16] <Sairon> like, "Bridge mill"
[02:40:16] <Tom_itx> i've seen HAAS but never used one
[02:40:36] <Tom_itx> mori seki are the cadillac
[02:40:38] <Sairon> HAAS is ok. they get a bad rap
[02:40:49] <Sairon> and i dislike their business practices
[02:40:54] <Tom_itx> heh
[02:40:58] <Sairon> but the machines are pretty good for the money
[02:41:04] <Tom_itx> yeah they did get in a bit of trouble
[02:41:06] <Sairon> my thing with haas is
[02:41:11] <Sairon> i know how to use variables
[02:41:17] <Sairon> no biggie
[02:41:20] <Sairon> so, i want to
[02:41:34] <Sairon> but i have to pay them $2,000 for the "option" of something that is part of the language
[02:41:37] <Sairon> that gets me
[02:42:01] <Sairon> i don't think the spindles are really what they are "rated" for
[02:42:07] <Sairon> but they are decent machines for the money
[02:42:25] <Sairon> if i had a shop with a mix of precision and materials
[02:42:25] <Tom_itx> fadal are pretty lightweight imo
[02:42:31] <Tom_itx> we used them mostly for aluminum
[02:42:42] <Sairon> i'd buy a haas just to not run plastics or aluminum on the expensive machines
[02:42:52] <Tom_itx> heh
[02:42:53] <Sairon> unless i needed that +/-.0001
[02:43:00] <Tom_itx> i think they're probably better than fadal
[02:43:15] <Sairon> i've gotten a couple tenths out of HAAS machines on aluminum and plastic
[02:43:28] <Sairon> without really doing anything extraordinary
[02:43:48] <Sairon> i've definitely gotten within a tenth on a mazak in aluminum
[02:44:17] <Sairon> maybe not on everything, but on a simple line to line dimension
[02:44:23] <toastydeath> with a skim cut most any commercial machine will do a few tenths after adjustment
[02:44:30] <Sairon> yeah
[02:44:45] <Sairon> that's what i mean, the HAAS isn't terrible, it's not the best
[02:44:48] <toastydeath> personally i hate working on haas, but like you said, for aluminum, plastics, etc they're great
[02:44:49] <Sairon> but it's also not terrible
[02:44:55] <pcw_home> Can you check the 5V power at the 7I48? The 7I48 draws more power the the 7I33 so if you have a long flat cable
[02:44:57] <pcw_home> or a lot of encoder power the 5V may droop enough to cause trouble, requiring the aux 5V to connect to PC 5V
[02:45:06] <pcw_home> than the
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[02:45:20] <danimal_garage> ah
[02:45:23] <Sairon> the mazak's i used to run could do under two tenths with some really really high feeds
[02:45:29] <Sairon> so they were super efficient
[02:45:38] <danimal_garage> i'll check on that
[02:45:43] <danimal_garage> good call, thanks
[02:46:14] <Sairon> i was shocked the first time i saw a roughing routine run on a moderate sized mazak
[02:46:40] <toastydeath> i'd prefer to buy a used mori seiki or similar for the haas money
[02:46:56] <Sairon> i've heard mori's are the bee's knees
[02:46:57] <toastydeath> unless i knew i was doing something stupid that would benefit from the high speed spindle and rapids
[02:47:11] <toastydeath> moris are, indeed, the bee's knees
[02:47:16] <Sairon> my thing is i'd hate to use a super accurate machine
[02:47:20] <Sairon> on work a haas can do
[02:47:21] <Tom_itx> i watched a mori flycut a good 1/8 - 1/4" pass thru steel like it was butter
[02:47:28] <Tom_itx> carbide with no coolant
[02:47:34] <Tom_itx> chips flying off white hot
[02:47:36] <Sairon> that's where i think the bonus of a haas in the shop is
[02:47:48] <Sairon> to not waste expensive machine time elsewhere
[02:47:50] <toastydeath> the mori will run that hard and then hold tenths
[02:47:56] <toastydeath> all the bearings are cooled
[02:48:00] <Sairon> nice
[02:48:02] <toastydeath> the spindle is cooled
[02:48:14] <Sairon> high precision work is fun
[02:48:21] <toastydeath> crashing them is largely unspectacular
[02:48:29] <Sairon> oh?
[02:48:32] <toastydeath> they're so powerful that no fixture will stop them, so there's no real wind up
[02:48:36] <Sairon> oh, i see
[02:48:38] <toastydeath> the machine just plows through and something snaps
[02:48:43] <toastydeath> without any real event
[02:48:54] <pcw_home> Also did you verify that your encoders are working properly (jumpered for TTL/DIFF as appropriate and all verified count wise)
[02:49:01] <Tom_itx> i was rather impressed with the ones i saw
[02:49:08] <Tom_itx> we didn't have any so i've never run one
[02:49:20] <toastydeath> i ran both their lathes and their mills
[02:49:31] <Tom_itx> are the lathes just as nice?
[02:49:32] <toastydeath> they're comparatively slow, but enormous amounts of torque on all feeds
[02:49:34] <toastydeath> oh yes.
[02:49:43] <toastydeath> we'd put critical small parts on a 30"x60" swing lathe
[02:49:51] <Sairon> the guys at the tool and die shop i was grinding is
[02:49:53] <toastydeath> just because it would hold the tolerances without any difficulty whatsoever
[02:49:58] <Sairon> seemed quite happy with their deckel's
[02:50:11] <Sairon> guess they have linear motors (which confuses me a bit)
[02:50:30] <toastydeath> deckel has always been more of a tool and die machine tool manufacturer
[02:50:34] <Sairon> maybe now that i rethink it
[02:50:37] <Sairon> it doesn't confuse me
[02:50:43] <toastydeath> hard milling, fast feeds, but low horsepower
[02:50:51] <Sairon> why is it that deckel's are so popular in that field?
[02:50:59] <toastydeath> and on the high hp machines, it's all in the upper range of the spindle rpm
[02:50:59] <Sairon> is it the fast speeds?
[02:51:04] <Sairon> i see
[02:51:09] <toastydeath> yeah, they're really good at hard milling to good tolerances
[02:51:21] <toastydeath> very fast spindle speeds and feeds, but light cuts
[02:51:26] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: yes, jumpers are right
[02:51:29] <toastydeath> means the dies require less time on an edm and hand polishign
[02:51:32] <toastydeath> *polishing
[02:51:44] <Sairon> oh man, i learned a lesson recently
[02:51:51] <Sairon> place i work now
[02:51:55] <Sairon> i'm "The Machinist"
[02:52:00] <toastydeath> ?
[02:52:08] <Sairon> it's a startup manufacturing thing
[02:52:20] <Sairon> so i do prototypes and automation stuff for the factory
[02:52:21] <danimal_garage> i don't have a working volt meter
[02:52:29] <Sairon> so it's not like a shop that does work for money
[02:52:32] <Sairon> make sense?
[02:52:40] <toastydeath> yeah
[02:52:46] <Sairon> so, i outsource stuff we don't have the machines for an what have you
[02:52:52] <danimal_garage> but i put in a longer ribbon cable and unplugged every axis except one pcw_home
[02:52:55] <Sairon> just did a run of stamping quotes
[02:53:02] <toastydeath> oh lord
[02:53:05] <Sairon> and the prices where all over the place for dies and the piece parts
[02:53:26] <Sairon> i dug in to it and kinda interviewed the designers about what their assumptions were
[02:53:49] <pcw_home> You really need a VM to debug this
[02:53:50] <Sairon> two tried to do it as cheap as possible on the die cost
[02:54:00] <Tom_itx> we did some roll forms for the company next to us one time
[02:54:04] <Sairon> one tried to make parts way better than what we need
[02:54:10] <Sairon> and hence the die was really expensive
[02:54:11] <toastydeath> yeah, you can make the same part on a 10,000 dollar die or a one million dollar die
[02:54:24] <Sairon> and one guy was in the middle
[02:54:30] <toastydeath> the million dollar die is the way to go if you're making a whole bajesus of parts
[02:54:32] <Sairon> but the thing about it was, his design was the smartest
[02:54:41] <toastydeath> ?
[02:54:42] <Sairon> it utilized manpower and material the best
[02:55:05] <Sairon> so, instead of carbide, he went with powdered metal for the punch and all
[02:55:18] <Sairon> but it was how he laid the part out in the material
[02:55:24] <Sairon> that made his piece cost the lowest
[02:55:34] <Sairon> seems obvious when you say it that way
[02:55:42] <Sairon> but it really was a discovery/lesson for me
[02:55:47] <toastydeath> well, the low bids think you're going to make one short run
[02:55:58] <toastydeath> the middle guy obviously thinks you'll be a return customer and he might have to re-use the die
[02:55:58] <Sairon> which, in stamping terms, we are
[02:56:07] <Sairon> i'd be surprised if we go past 200,000 parts
[02:56:21] <toastydeath> and the big people, obviously, are high and think you'll be making millions of high accuracy parts
[02:56:47] <Sairon> well, the approach of the most expensive
[02:56:53] <Sairon> was the same as the cheapest ones
[02:56:59] <Sairon> just more accurate and with carbide
[02:56:59] <danimal_garage> dang it
[02:57:02] <Sairon> instead of tool steel
[02:57:20] <toastydeath> also i don't know the designs, i just know a few tool and die machinists who used to make a range of dies
[02:57:33] <Tom_itx> i would think carbide would be a bad choice for a die
[02:57:34] <toastydeath> i have no specific reason to think your high bidders are smart
[02:57:43] <Sairon> i dont
[02:57:48] <Tom_itx> it's too brittle isn't it?
[02:57:51] <Sairon> naw
[02:57:55] <toastydeath> the punch is confind
[02:57:56] <toastydeath> *confined
[02:58:03] <Sairon> it's a pretty common die material
[02:58:09] <toastydeath> there's nowhere for it to deflect to and the tolerances are tenths
[02:58:21] <Sairon> it grinds great, too
[02:58:33] <Sairon> i think you actually save grinding time using carbide
[02:58:42] <Sairon> because it reacts to heat less than tool steel
[02:58:54] <Sairon> so you have less heat related time/errors
[02:59:06] <Sairon> less rework
[02:59:23] <toastydeath> usually they just grind the face down?
[02:59:27] <Sairon> plus you can get the preforms pretty darn close to nominal
[02:59:30] <toastydeath> i'm not sure why there'd be a rework error
[02:59:42] <Sairon> no, i mean the grinding when you are making the die
[02:59:46] <toastydeath> oh
[03:00:09] <Tom_itx> we used to machine tungsten ballast
[03:00:12] <Sairon> i thought carbide dies where ten times easier to do than tool steel ones
[03:00:30] <Sairon> just because you'd start with something really close to nominal
[03:00:40] <Sairon> you could pound on it hard with a diamond wheel
[03:00:46] <toastydeath> not really, most die mfg's i have spoken to start from a blank
[03:00:52] <Sairon> and the heat really wouldn't change the size much
[03:01:00] <Sairon> hmm, well, around here at least
[03:01:03] <toastydeath> and edm and grind it
[03:01:11] <Sairon> quite a few shop use preforms
[03:01:20] <Sairon> i started in a preform shop
[03:01:29] <Sairon> and then went to work at one of our customer's shops
[03:01:32] <pcw_home> danimal_garage did you verify that your encoders count correctly?
[03:01:46] <Sairon> even edm's need to have a start hole
[03:02:06] <toastydeath> yeah, but a lot of the new ones can burn a hole
[03:02:20] <Sairon> didn't know that
[03:02:29] <toastydeath> and even then a lot of those shops have edm drills
[03:02:33] <toastydeath> that are pretty quick
[03:02:37] <toastydeath> (by edm standards)
[03:02:39] <Sairon> eh, so my experience has been with preforms
[03:02:51] <toastydeath> i guess it also depends on what you are stamping
[03:03:00] <toastydeath> obviously i've never been in one of those shops, just talked to people
[03:03:00] <Sairon> there's a shop around here that started doing preforms in house
[03:03:04] <Sairon> to better compete
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[03:03:28] <Sairon> we have an area known as "carbide valley"
[03:03:35] <Sairon> because of how many tool and die shops there are
[03:04:22] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: not exactly, but it doesnt appear off when i feed
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[03:04:35] <Tom_itx> Sairon, what's the main industry up there?
[03:04:54] <Tom_itx> auto, oil, train, forestry...
[03:05:03] <Sairon> i don't think there is one at this point
[03:05:11] <toastydeath> what's the hourly wage for a junior programmer
[03:05:24] <Sairon> there generally isn't such a job around here
[03:05:46] <toastydeath> hm
[03:05:47] <Sairon> the programmers are usually senior machinists
[03:06:05] <Sairon> we used to have Westinghouse Brake
[03:06:11] <toastydeath> weird, i only have three years exp but I was a programmer at my old job
[03:06:14] <Sairon> which was airbrakes for locomotives
[03:06:21] <Sairon> but that's been gone a while
[03:06:36] <Sairon> there are alot of stamping shops that have at one time or another supported automotive
[03:06:38] <Tom_itx> mostly aircraft around here
[03:06:47] <Sairon> decent amount of medical stuff
[03:06:49] <Tom_itx> some heavy equipment still i think
[03:07:03] <Sairon> i think that's why the industry is as healthy as it is here
[03:07:05] <Tom_itx> case used to have a plant here
[03:07:10] <Sairon> because it's pretty diverse
[03:07:27] <Sairon> Kennametal is here
[03:07:52] <Sairon> alot of stamping dies being made for beer and soda cans
[03:07:55] <Sairon> alcoa is here
[03:08:11] <Sairon> so, there's still some heavy plant stuff being done
[03:08:31] <Sairon> continuous rolling machines for steel mills, that sort of thing
[03:08:42] <Sairon> my sister in law designs those for siemens
[03:08:48] <Sairon> they make them here and send them to china
[03:08:55] <Sairon> (which is interesting to me)
[03:09:07] <toastydeath> yeah, it's actually one of the few things we still make
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[03:09:20] <Sairon> we are actually doing decent on robotics
[03:09:29] <Sairon> and there are alot of defense contractors
[03:09:32] <toastydeath> high end industy equipment for manufacturing, semiconductor, optics
[03:09:49] <Sairon> i worked in positioning instruments for a while
[03:09:57] <Sairon> i.e. linear stages, etc
[03:10:04] <toastydeath> Sairon, what's the salary range there for setup guys and programmers
[03:10:10] <Sairon> shitty
[03:10:13] <Sairon> :)
[03:10:13] <toastydeath> that sucks
[03:10:16] <Sairon> yeah
[03:10:29] <Sairon> i mean, here's the thing
[03:10:39] <Sairon> prices don't fluctuate here as much they do elsewhere
[03:10:44] <Sairon> so, everything is cheaper
[03:10:55] <Sairon> houses are REALLY cheap compared to other cities in the US
[03:10:59] <Sairon> so, wages are lower
[03:11:08] <pcw_home> danimal_garage on the7I48 do you have the three power LEDS (and no red LEDs on)
[03:11:10] <toastydeath> ah
[03:11:15] <Tom_itx> i think the eastern US had it's hay day and it's kinda tapered off now
[03:11:31] <Tom_itx> far as mfg etc
[03:11:36] <Sairon> well, in my area
[03:11:38] <toastydeath> dunno, i'm pretty junior and i'm able to get a 40k/year job if i wanted one
[03:11:43] <toastydeath> i am on the east coast near dc
[03:11:43] <Sairon> if we don't solve the labor problem
[03:11:46] <Sairon> we're sunk
[03:11:57] <Sairon> alot of these guys are retiring in the next ten years
[03:12:08] <Sairon> and very few shops have developed good apprenticeship programs
[03:12:13] <Sairon> and attracted good talen
[03:12:14] <Sairon> t
[03:12:20] <Tom_itx> lotsa button pushers
[03:12:23] <Sairon> yeah
[03:12:31] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: i think i just killed it
[03:12:33] <Sairon> there are a couple shops that have active apprenticeships
[03:12:40] <danimal_garage> i saw smoke
[03:12:42] <Sairon> and pay wages on par with the national average
[03:12:55] <Sairon> but there are alot of machinists trying to get in those doors
[03:13:00] <pcw_home> oh oh
[03:13:17] <Sairon> i think when the baby boomers retire, there will be a big scramble
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[03:13:29] <toastydeath> i think apprenticeships are out
[03:13:29] <Sairon> i've gone to industry forums
[03:13:33] <Tom_itx> china will own us by then
[03:13:34] <toastydeath> nobody remembers how to do that anymore
[03:13:37] <Sairon> and no one seems to get that
[03:13:43] <danimal_garage> came from the lower left hand side
[03:13:43] <Sairon> yeah, i tried to start one where i work
[03:13:48] <toastydeath> so did i, it failed
[03:13:49] <Sairon> that got shot down pretty fast
[03:13:54] <toastydeath> because the only person they wanted to train was me
[03:14:10] <Sairon> they thought i'd lose productivity if i was training someone
[03:14:22] <Sairon> but i think it's the only way we will attract and maintain talen
[03:14:27] <toastydeath> ah, i had the inverse
[03:14:47] <toastydeath> by picking things up without being told they let me work on things i had no right to work on
[03:14:49] <danimal_garage> damn it
[03:14:58] <Sairon> quite frankly, our community college have courses in this stuff
[03:15:01] <danimal_garage> well, back to the 7i33 i go
[03:15:03] <Sairon> but they are terrible at it
[03:15:04] <toastydeath> supervising, programming, etc
[03:15:04] <Tom_itx> danimal_garage, what did you go an do now??
[03:15:14] <toastydeath> i went through a community college machinist training program
[03:15:15] <toastydeath> it was horrid
[03:15:21] <toastydeath> but i did learn a lot by sheer force of will
[03:15:27] <Sairon> we have a state sponsored program
[03:15:31] <Sairon> and it's really bad, too
[03:15:35] <toastydeath> by the end of it though I was the only guy who could program the cncs
[03:15:39] <toastydeath> and that was because of work
[03:15:41] <Sairon> the institutional apprenticeships, where they exist
[03:15:42] <Sairon> here
[03:15:43] <toastydeath> not because of the program
[03:15:45] <pcw_home> Power supply is in lower left side
[03:15:45] <Sairon> are really good
[03:16:00] <Sairon> there just aren't enough of them
[03:16:14] <Sairon> and guidance counselor's, sometimes for good reason
[03:16:19] <Sairon> chase young people from the field
[03:16:22] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: i hooked up 5v from the power supply to j1
[03:16:34] <Sairon> alot of the shops here look really bad
[03:16:46] <Sairon> totally outdated, totally filthy
[03:17:03] <Sairon> i think, now, if you want to do manufacturing
[03:17:06] <danimal_garage> the jumper is supposed to be to the left, right?
[03:17:12] <Sairon> you have to be on the technology edge
[03:17:15] <Sairon> somewhere near it
[03:17:29] <Sairon> with a decent, modern facility that people want to work in
[03:17:45] <Sairon> because, the shops with no apprenticeship
[03:17:50] <Sairon> no hygeine standards
[03:17:56] <Sairon> beat up machines
[03:18:04] <toastydeath> i look for a good shop sink
[03:18:13] <toastydeath> i think that's a good barometer
[03:18:14] <Sairon> they only attract rednecks who hate trigonometry
[03:18:24] <Sairon> i look at tool boxes
[03:18:35] <Sairon> i count surface plates, and observe tool boxes
[03:18:42] <pcw_home> left for external 5V right for flat cable 5V
[03:18:51] <danimal_garage> yep i had that right
[03:19:02] <Sairon> a majority gerstner's is a good sign, in my eye
[03:19:11] <danimal_garage> there was only 1 led lit up before it fried
[03:19:16] <toastydeath> i prefer a slightly larger box
[03:19:19] <pcw_home> 5V from 5I20?
[03:19:21] <danimal_garage> the one up near the p1
[03:19:24] <Sairon> they make some big ones :)
[03:19:27] <toastydeath> the mechanics boxes
[03:19:31] <toastydeath> rather than machinist boxes
[03:19:41] <danimal_garage> 5v from the computer's power supply
[03:19:46] <Sairon> i like my gerstner
[03:19:54] <toastydeath> i actually want not a toolbox, but a movable desk
[03:20:02] <pcw_home> not 12 I hope
[03:20:04] <toastydeath> with maybe a small, seven drawer chest on top
[03:20:06] <danimal_garage> haha no
[03:20:10] <Sairon> but if i see a bunch of broken down craftsman toolboxes
[03:20:12] <danimal_garage> first thing i checked
[03:20:13] <toastydeath> and some big drawers in the bottom
[03:20:13] <Sairon> eh...
[03:20:19] <danimal_garage> red wire
[03:22:07] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: i think i'll just oder another 7i33 on Monday and skip the 7i48
[03:22:33] <danimal_garage> order
[03:23:14] <danimal_garage> i can't afford to have the machine down
[03:24:48] <pcw_home> Surprised you had so much trouble with the 7I48, lots of people using them And I dont understand the pulsing at all
[03:25:00] <danimal_garage> yea it was really weird
[03:25:46] <danimal_garage> i even tried just connecting one axis
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[03:26:35] <danimal_garage> the encoder signal is produced from the digital drives, so there's no voltage coming from the 7i48 to the encoders
[03:27:20] <pcw_home> sounds like a a bad/shorted output pulling down the power supply which died when you gave it a low drop supply
[03:27:48] <pcw_home> pulling down the +-15V supply that is
[03:28:51] <danimal_garage> bad output on what, the 7i48?
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[03:30:40] <pcw_home> Yeah, Is it possible that the only ground between the drives and the PC ground is through the 7I48s connectors?
[03:31:59] <danimal_garage> i don't know, i know the drives themselves are grounded to the same plate that the mobo is screwed to pcw_home
[03:32:36] <pcw_home> Well we will RMA it on Monday and when we get it back we will see what happened
[03:33:06] <danimal_garage> ok, i'll send it back... i have to send back that 7i37, should i send them together?
[03:33:12] <danimal_garage> i was going to do that tomorrow
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[03:33:37] <pcw_home> Sure, Did you get the 7I37TA
[03:33:42] <danimal_garage> not yet
[03:33:43] <pcw_home> ?
[03:33:48] <danimal_garage> she sent it today
[03:33:53] <danimal_garage> i should have it monday
[03:34:03] <pcw_home> OK
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[03:34:39] <pcw_home> bbl
[03:35:17] <danimal_garage> pcw_home: i think i just want to order a 7i33 instead, i really can't take the machine apart again
[03:35:28] <danimal_garage> timewise
[03:35:42] <danimal_garage> ok, ttyl, thanks for the help
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[03:54:34] <IG-garage> rooks: used angle grinder and touched skin at hand with the brush, now look at this lack of my substance and eat soaked sunflower oil seeds hoping there will not be scar left. Raw vegan diet is the power!
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[06:49:02] <nicko> PCW - are you there ?
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[08:09:50] <anonimasu> morning
[08:10:25] <theos> morningo
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[10:50:45] <anonimasu> pcw_home: are you there?
[10:50:47] <anonimasu> [ 643.169591] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: inconsistent Module Descriptor for Smart Serial Interface, not loading driver
[10:52:00] <jthornton> it's pretty early in the morning for left coast guys
[10:52:40] <anonimasu> any idea why this dosent work?
[10:56:46] <anonimasu> [ 1024.666312] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: inconsistent Module Descriptor for Smart Serial Interface, not loading driver
[10:56:49] <anonimasu> [ 1024.666331] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: Version = 0, expected 0
[10:56:52] <anonimasu> [ 1024.666340] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: NumRegisters = 6, expected 5
[10:56:54] <anonimasu> [ 1024.666350] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: InstanceStride = 0x00000040, expected 0x00000040
[10:56:57] <anonimasu> [ 1024.666360] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: MultipleRegisters = 0x0000003C, expected 0x0000001F
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[13:31:35] <elmo40> ok, don't mea to bring in politics to the room (shame shame) but damn, don't the americans know why they are broke? just listen to their speaker of the house: http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/video/economy-22350848/boehner-on-u-s-debt-26089861
[13:32:05] <elmo40> 'uuhh, one plus one equals 3, I think' is what I got out of that vid.
[13:34:46] <elmo40> I bet everyone behind that podium makes $250k + / year tax free. That is the problem. Gov't is too damn big.
[13:35:10] <elmo40> ok, done my morning political rant ;)
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[13:35:39] * anonimasu hopes pcw will chime in soon
[13:36:34] <SWPadnos> it's 6:37 AM on a Saturday for PCW - it might be a few minutes ;)
[13:36:42] <SWPadnos> ok, 6:38 now
[13:36:55] <elmo40> 9:36 here
[13:37:11] <SWPadnos> yeah, but he's on the west coast
[13:37:32] <elmo40> is your clock set to the internet? appears to be out a couple minutes
[13:37:46] <SWPadnos> eh, it probably hasn't been synced in a while
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[13:38:11] <SWPadnos> yep: Delta (Running Fast): 125.373457 seconds
[13:38:34] <SWPadnos> ok, so now it's 6:38 for PCW :)
[13:38:39] <anonimasu> im stuck with my boarsd I get 12:56 < anonimasu> [ 1024.666312] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: inconsistent Module Descriptor for Smart Serial Interface, not loading driver
[13:38:43] <anonimasu> 12:56 < anonimasu> [ 1024.666340] hm2/hm2_5i23.0: NumRegisters = 6, expected 5
[13:39:09] <SWPadnos> well, clearly you have too many registers
[13:39:17] <anonimasu> can I cut them off?
[13:39:22] <anonimasu> i have a small knife in the shop
[13:39:24] <SWPadnos> I think you need a laser
[13:39:34] <anonimasu> crap.
[13:39:35] <anonimasu> :D
[13:41:02] <anonimasu> I have no remote idea why it does this
[13:41:36] <SWPadnos> I think andypugh and PCW were talking about this yesterday or the day before
[13:41:44] <SWPadnos> so they might be aware of the problem
[13:41:53] <SWPadnos> or at least a problem
[13:43:10] <anonimasu> I'd just like to try my drives :)
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[13:53:26] <newbynobi> Hallo Out There, is there somebody to help me with hal_gremlin. I want to change the view of hal_gremlin in a gladevcp panel with a set of gtk radio button. So I connected the signal on_radiobutton_toggled to the button. Then the functtion shell set self.hal_gremlin.set_current_view('z') ; but I get the error "set_current_view() takes exactly 1 argument (2 given). Sorry a am a newby with python. Hope for some help
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[15:00:37] <pcw_home> anonimasu you need to git master and add andys latest patches
[15:08:41] <anonimasu> I did, but i dont have andy's patches
[15:09:08] <anonimasu> how can i get them?
[15:09:42] <Tom_itx> beg?
[15:10:32] <pcw_home> I had trouble with the patches but Andys changed files are here:
[15:10:34] <pcw_home> freeby.mesanet.com/ssfix.zip
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[15:11:25] <anonimasu> perfect!
[15:11:55] <anonimasu> gonna go and try it in 30 minutes
[15:11:58] <cradek_> does something need to be pushed to master?
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[15:12:32] <anonimasu> do I need to wire up anything to the drive or is it enough just to plug the rs232 and it'll be powered and all
[15:13:18] <pcw_home> Read the manual?
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[15:16:32] <cncbasher> could anyone direct some light on to this error please , in pncconf line 5772 halrun.flush() IO error32 broken pipe
[15:17:12] <cncbasher> just wondering if i have a file corrupted or goosed
[15:17:48] <cncbasher> thats from git master today
[15:19:01] <pcw_home> The 8I20 logic side can be 5V powered via the cat 5 cable but its preferred to use the field power (8-36V)
[15:19:03] <pcw_home> You will also need at least some motor voltage (say 50V or so) or the 8I20 wont start. You also need to activate the enable input
[15:24:35] <anonimasu> ok.[17049.644840] hm2_5i23.0: initialized AnyIO board at 0000:02:0d.0
[15:25:17] <anonimasu> hm, that's heavier. i have up to 60v at 1.5a or the full 300something volts
[15:25:29] <pcw_home> cradek: yes this stuff should be pushed (Andy would be the one with the right git info)
[15:25:57] <pcw_home> 60V should b e enough to test
[15:26:42] <pcw_home> I just overwrote the old files (the horror)
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[15:28:55] <anonimasu> so, unless i have the 60v applied i cant see the board show up so i can set up the hal pins?
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[15:32:08] <pcw_home> Yeah you need moor power to start
[15:32:23] <pcw_home> motor
[15:32:52] <anonimasu> §yeah but if i only want to see what hal pins i can set at the driver to see what i need to do
[15:33:49] <pcw_home> take a look at the hm2-servogreen.hal file
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[15:39:10] <anonimasu> im doing that but it seems that im missing a enable pin that should come from somewhere
[15:39:46] <anonimasu> ie trying to load it without tweaking it
[15:42:34] <pcw_home> hal enable pin?
[15:43:32] <anonimasu> hm2-servogreen.hal:84: Pin 'hm2_5i23.0.8i20.0.0.amp_enable' does not exist
[15:43:44] <pcw_home> Are you on channel 0
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[15:43:54] <anonimasu> yes
[15:44:14] <anonimasu> bottom left corner of the rj45's
[15:44:20] <pcw_home> do you have the 8I20s enable input powered?
[15:44:45] <anonimasu> the 7i47 on the first connection to the 5i23 and then the rs422 one on the second
[15:45:05] <anonimasu> no
[15:45:58] <pcw_home> Um check the pinout, I think the sserial stuff is on the last connector
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[15:46:30] <anonimasu> it dosent say in dmesg
[15:47:32] <pcw_home> Yeah I think thats wrong, I think it should enable as many sserial channels as you specify, not as many as have remotes connected
[15:48:01] <pcw_home> Too automagic for me
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[15:48:39] <anonimasu> from the datasheet it says that logic should work without motor power, so i should be able to communicate with the drive and read status right?
[15:48:59] <anonimasu> so, there's something wrong along the way
[15:49:28] <pcw_home> No the driver wont start a drive unless its ready
[15:49:49] <anonimasu> yeah but shouldnt i be able to see the fault pins as long as it's powered and conencted?
[15:52:09] <pcw_home> The driver does not deal with faults other than com faults yet
[15:52:43] <Tom_itx> oh to be on the bleeding edge
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[15:54:33] <pcw_home> Yeah SSERIal is on the last connetor
[15:54:55] <anonimasu> also how sensitive is this stuff do i need to restart to unplug/move stuff?
[15:55:48] <anonimasu> now I have 55v into the drive.
[15:55:49] <anonimasu> :)
[15:56:27] <pcw_home> You need to stop and start EMC (well actually just stop/start SSERIAL) if you unplug anything
[15:56:53] <anonimasu> i mean the modules like the rs422
[16:00:32] <pcw_home> Oh moving hardware, On our test rigs we dont bother, But I would not suggest hot plugging anything...
[16:01:01] <Tom_itx> :)
[16:02:28] <Tom_itx> are there routines in emc for tool touch sensors?
[16:02:37] <Tom_itx> or is that something the user needs to write
[16:02:47] <anonimasu> hm, nothing happened when i powered the enable input
[16:05:04] <pcw_home> Nothing should happen but it 8I20 should be startable by the driver now
[16:07:56] <anonimasu> nothing happens
[16:09:11] <pcw_home> What LEDs are on on the 8I20
[16:09:38] <pcw_home> ?
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[16:10:51] <anonimasu> fault, iso pwr status is orange
[16:10:56] <anonimasu> and pwr
[16:11:03] <anonimasu> hv on is dim orange
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[16:14:03] <pcw_home> so you have the 7I44 on the 5I23s last connector, the 8I20 enable pins are supplied
[16:14:05] <pcw_home> with 5-24V you have motor power, you stop and start EMC and you get no green light?
[16:15:55] <anonimasu> no i dont
[16:19:05] <anonimasu> I keep getting the same amp enable does not exist
[16:19:26] <anonimasu> im powering the enable with 7v from a battery
[16:21:13] <alex_joni> dmesg > pastebin
[16:26:11] <anonimasu> http://pastebin.com/ku4znpTN
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[16:28:19] <anonimasu> nothing looks weird there, and the emc_print and debug dosent write anything
[16:30:17] <anonimasu> a picture of how the drive looks with led's will be up in like 5-10 minutes once my cellphone gets the mail sent
[16:30:57] <pcw_home> If comms start you should get a blinking green light
[16:33:24] <anonimasu> w6 seems to be down
[16:33:26] <anonimasu> :)
[16:34:01] <anonimasu> no..
[16:34:05] <anonimasu> it's up as it's supposed to..
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[16:44:55] <alex_joni> what amp enable does not exist?
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[16:54:12] <anonimasu> yes
[16:54:37] <alex_joni> I really mean _what_ amp enable does not exist?
[16:54:58] <anonimasu> for the 8i22
[16:55:29] <alex_joni> I suppose it has a certain name?
[16:56:12] <anonimasu> that's what I dont know I cant see thoose hal pins
[16:56:49] <anonimasu> err 8i20.. i mean
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[16:59:01] <anonimasu> it's autodetected i think, but i dont know what's supposed to be next
[17:00:50] <pcw_home> When you start EMC do you get even one blink on the green LED?
[17:01:47] <anonimasu> no
[17:02:52] <pcw_home> OK comm error
[17:02:54] <pcw_home> Standard cat 5 cable? _NOT_ crossover
[17:02:56] <pcw_home> 7I44 has power?
[17:03:50] <anonimasu> yes
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[17:04:27] <anonimasu> (it powers the 8i20 through the rs232)
[17:04:27] <IchGuckLive> Hi all around the world
[17:04:58] <anonimasu> err rs485
[17:05:09] <anonimasu> the cable is a standard cable provided with a adsl router
[17:05:15] <anonimasu> should be as standard as they come
[17:05:49] <IchGuckLive> the adsl cable is not fully connected
[17:05:59] <pcw_home> I would guess that could be a crossover cable
[17:06:28] <anonimasu> it's a normal network cable
[17:06:50] <anonimasu> I can get outside to measure it in a minute
[17:07:07] <anonimasu> im using the same cable for my network to my hub inside
[17:07:21] <IchGuckLive> hub or switch ?
[17:07:24] <anonimasu> hub
[17:13:35] <danimal_garage> morning
[17:14:48] <danimal_garage> hmmm what to do today
[17:14:52] <IchGuckLive> Good Evening O.O
[17:15:04] <danimal_garage> 10:15 am here
[17:15:22] <Tom_itx> solve the national debt crisis and world peace
[17:15:36] <danimal_garage> maybe i'll do my way overdue spring cleaning
[17:16:02] <IchGuckLive> Teaparty wars not good at all most americans drink coffee
[17:16:11] <danimal_garage> Tom_itx: sure, right after i solve my own debt crisis lol
[17:16:34] <danimal_garage> IchGuckLive: that's a stereotype
[17:16:39] * anonimasu slaps pcw_home and IchGuckLive and everyone
[17:16:40] <anonimasu> :D
[17:16:42] <anonimasu> it works now
[17:16:48] <danimal_garage> i've never had a cup of coffee in my life
[17:16:49] <anonimasu> good point about the cable..
[17:16:54] <anonimasu> wow
[17:17:11] <IchGuckLive> anonimasu: what happend
[17:17:14] <anonimasu> hm2/hm2_5i23.0: Smart Serial port 0: DoIt not cleared from previous servo thread. Servo thread rate probably too fast. This message will not be repeated, but the hm2_5i23.0.sserial.0.fault-count pin will indicate if this is happening frequentl
[17:18:17] <anonimasu> it works :)
[17:18:27] <anonimasu> I wonder if I can safely connect the 300v soon and try spinning it..
[17:19:09] <Tom_itx> cool
[17:19:11] <Tom_itx> go for it
[17:19:30] <danimal_garage> just don't let the smoke out
[17:20:18] <pcw_home> That error is not good, what your servo thread rate/
[17:22:29] <anonimasu> the default one for the servogreen
[17:24:54] <pcw_home> Well default for our system, maybe not OK for yours...
[17:26:59] <anonimasu> can I just run it after with power applied and play around with angle until it works for testing?
[17:26:59] <pcw_home> Oh and Im not sure if Andy fixed the first one of these errors, you may always get 1 at startup
[17:27:21] <anonimasu> and then fiddle around with the offset to get it working?
[17:28:15] <anonimasu> pcw_home: ie, it wont kill my motors or drives, it just wont commutate properly..
[17:28:20] <pcw_home> You shoul be able to run your motors is the simple (q) startup mode if you set the poles /encoder count correctly
[17:29:15] <pcw_home> Right, also the default current limit on 8I20s is 7.5A so thats all you can get unless you change the EEPROM setting
[17:29:25] <anonimasu> hehe, how do i know my pole count..
[17:35:00] <anonimasu> pcw_home: it works now, it was the thread period
[17:35:26] <Tom_itx> anonimasu, write up a 'how to'
[17:35:53] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: i better do that after I get this working
[17:36:01] <pcw_home> motor manual (or unlink the current setting line in the HAL set the current to about 1A
[17:36:03] <pcw_home> rotate the motor shaft by hand and count the null positions multiply this by 2 for poles
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[17:37:54] <anonimasu> pcw_home: but that requires me to plug in the big power supply and not the 60v one..
[17:40:30] <anonimasu> question, what pin do i scope for that?
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[17:40:38] <pcw_home> No 60V is fine, when static you can get several amps of motor power out of your 1.5A
[17:41:01] <pcw_home> motor current I should say
[17:41:09] <anonimasu> 8i20.0.0.current
[17:41:37] <pcw_home> yeah just set this by hand
[17:43:04] <pcw_home> so you end up with a 4 or 6 or 8 pole 3 phase step motor that you count the poles by counting the "detents"
[17:43:56] <pcw_home> (and mult by 2)
[17:46:07] <anonimasu> so i just jog and count?
[17:46:24] <anonimasu> or what pin do i scope?
[17:47:31] <pcw_home> No you just manually turn the motor shaft
[17:47:34] <anonimasu> my motors need 0.25a to be movable by hand
[17:47:37] <anonimasu> :D
[17:48:20] <anonimasu> looks like 4
[17:48:36] <anonimasu> brb, dinnertime
[17:48:37] <pcw_home> tape up keyways if you like your fingers
[17:48:49] <anonimasu> hehe
[17:48:55] <anonimasu> straight shaft :)
[17:49:05] <anonimasu> after dinner, more power.. :D
[17:50:50] <pcw_home> Before you get to ambitious consider a brake resistor
[17:51:45] <anonimasu> why?
[17:51:59] <anonimasu> with a unloaded motor?
[17:52:00] <pcw_home> And unfortunately you need the DOS or Windows utils to set the EERPOM settings
[17:52:28] * anonimasu nods
[17:52:39] <anonimasu> can you get them avaiable for me so I can set that up before I begin testing
[17:53:12] <pcw_home> Just that if you get it running and deccelerate very fast or may get an overvoltage situation
[17:53:20] <anonimasu> I have a adapter next to me for the encoder stuff it does buth rs422 and rs485
[17:53:22] <anonimasu> I see
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[17:55:26] <pcw_home> I think I need to update our utilities for the 6 register firmware (andy has a tricky HAL way of setting this but I dont know it off hand)
[17:55:28] <pcw_home> so you may be stuck with 7.5 A max until monday
[17:56:31] <anonimasu> pcw_home: well, i need 500w max
[17:56:36] <anonimasu> im running unloaded on a bench
[17:56:50] <anonimasu> also, i cant squeeze out any performance with my atmel converter
[17:56:58] <anonimasu> I guess, since it limits my max encoder count
[17:57:09] <anonimasu> im more worried about damaging the motor
[17:57:35] <anonimasu> pcw_home: my thing would be to set it to like 1 ampere or something for testing
[17:58:49] <pcw_home> Sure you can do that in the HAL file (it wont send any current values higher than 1A) and 7.5A wont hurt your motors
[17:59:38] <pcw_home> make sure you have the ferrite bead on U,V,W
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[18:03:40] <pcw_home> bbl
[18:07:27] <anonimasu> pcw_home: allright!
[18:07:27] <anonimasu> _)
[18:07:30] <anonimasu> :)
[18:13:14] <anonimasu> so now i hook up 250something volts..
[18:13:15] <anonimasu> and pray.
[18:14:42] <anonimasu> scale for motors is that the number of quadrature counts per rev?
[18:18:13] <pcw_home> yeah
[18:20:25] <anonimasu> another question, any chance to commute on 60v?
[18:20:32] <anonimasu> it seems my motor jumps and gets stuck pulling 1.5A
[18:20:39] <anonimasu> or it's just not enough
[18:21:17] <pcw_home> there are still possible UVW order issues and encoder direction issues
[18:21:19] <pcw_home> before you can get it to spin.
[18:21:21] <pcw_home> I suspect it would not be too hard to write a utility that slowly turns the motor
[18:21:23] <pcw_home> in step motor mode (slew angle at constant current) all the while reading the encoder to get all the setup info
[18:21:48] <pcw_home> yup may need to reverse the encoder scale or swap uvw
[18:22:06] <pcw_home> s/yup/you/
[18:22:18] <pcw_home> much safer at 60V
[18:22:44] <anonimasu> it spun!
[18:22:45] <anonimasu> :)
[18:23:41] <pcw_home> Didn't seem like we'd get there earlier...
[18:24:24] <anonimasu> what do I adjust to set the phase angle?
[18:25:12] <anonimasu> rotor angle?
[18:25:52] <pcw_home> Is there a manual page on the BLDC comp?
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[18:29:29] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/bldc.9.html
[18:29:57] <anonimasu> it works now, but it looks like the scale is wrong :)
[18:29:58] <anonimasu> in emc..
[18:30:01] <anonimasu> .ini
[18:32:33] <pcw_home> Theres no guarantee that the hal file is good for anything other that a sample BLDC/8I20 config ;-)
[18:32:58] <pcw_home> we have another one setup for a linear motor we have
[18:33:14] <anonimasu> mhm..
[18:33:16] <anonimasu> this kindof works
[18:33:36] <anonimasu> but still no proper commutation..
[18:34:07] <anonimasu> now I have no idea what to do :D
[18:35:37] <pcw_home> if you do q mode startup, have the encoder counts right (and you never lose counts)
[18:35:39] <pcw_home> and have the UVW correct it pretty much has to work
[18:36:31] <anonimasu> well, uvw was setup from manufacturer datasheet..
[18:36:58] <anonimasu> but my voltage drops to 30v under load, so that might be another issue
[18:37:07] <pcw_home> but even here there are many possible wrong settings and only 1 right
[18:37:50] <pcw_home> If you voltage drops to 30V you will likely get a LV fault on the drive
[18:38:08] <pcw_home> maybe set your current lower for testing
[18:38:19] <skunkworks> pcw_home: what is wrong with my thinking - If I scale an encoder by the counts per rev (4096) isn't its velocity going to be in rps?
[18:39:24] <pcw_home> I think it _should_ be, but Id have to look at how the velocity is scaled
[18:40:23] <skunkworks> pcw - for some reason I get rpm/1000 - so if the spindle is going 300rpm - the velocity pin is .3000
[18:40:56] <pcw_home> strange, maybe thats a question for Sebastian
[18:41:54] <anonimasu> pcw_home: ie, I cant test commutation until i have proper power plugged :S
[18:42:04] <pcw_home> Is ip possible its in R/sample period?
[18:42:04] <skunkworks> I have it working by scaling the output - working great. just odd.
[18:42:29] <anonimasu> pcw_home: it looks like my power supply just drops
[18:42:41] <anonimasu> the encoder counting works _ok_ as long as the motor dosent jump too fast
[18:42:42] <pcw_home> anonimasu sore just set the current lower
[18:42:52] <pcw_home> sure
[18:43:30] <pcw_home> Yeah you need reliable encoder counting
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[19:13:21] <awallin> hrm, what's the difference between abs() and fabs() in c/c++ ??
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[19:18:40] <alex_joni> awallin: abs is for int, fabs is for double
[19:18:41] <alex_joni> afaik
[19:19:17] <awallin> yeah I'm just surprised I don't get errors with "abs(double)" seems this was causing my latest bug
[19:19:28] <alex_joni> no, it truncates
[19:19:31] <alex_joni> converts to int
[19:20:00] <awallin> I feel the compiler should at least warn me ? :)
[19:21:02] <alex_joni> in c++ there's std:abs which takes double too :)
[19:21:11] <alex_joni> std::abs I mean
[19:22:31] <awallin> in c++ does abs() and fabs() come from <cmath> normally?
[19:22:33] <alex_joni> awallin: try using -Wconversion
[19:22:40] <skunkworks> I did the same mistake with my comp. Using abs on a floating point number. Chris set me strait at one of the fests.
[19:23:00] <alex_joni> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/numeric/math/abs
[19:23:20] <awallin> strange thing is calling the same thing form slightly diferently python wrapped stuff doesn't give the same bug....
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[19:43:47] <anonimasu> it works kindof.
[19:44:02] <anonimasu> I can jog a few 30 degrees then the motor jumps like crazy
[19:45:19] <syyl_> then it works to allmost 1/3.. ;)
[19:45:25] <syyl_> eh
[19:45:32] <anonimasu> yeah, but it jumps around like crazy
[19:45:37] <syyl_> 1/12..
[19:45:45] <syyl_> evil beer
[19:45:46] <anonimasu> and it can hold position
[19:45:55] <anonimasu> but moving around dosent work so great..
[19:45:58] * anonimasu wonders why
[19:46:12] <anonimasu> maybe I need to hook up the abs encoder stuff I wrote first
[19:46:26] <anonimasu> so I can determinate if it's just a matter of rotor alignment..
[19:49:54] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: ask me about the servos is they were a good buy...
[19:49:57] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: :D
[19:50:06] <Tom_itx> cool
[19:50:15] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: I think it's still relatively painless.. they didnt explode at 150V
[19:50:16] <Tom_itx> getting closer ehh?
[19:50:16] <anonimasu> :)
[19:50:41] <anonimasu> yeah, looks like I need to get not lazy to plug the abs component into emc so I can set up the angle
[19:50:55] <anonimasu> then we'll see i think my avr can barely keep up
[19:52:42] <Tom_itx> the offer still stands if you wanna send me 4
[19:52:42] <Tom_itx> :D
[19:52:50] <Tom_itx> i will let you
[19:54:36] <anonimasu> if things fail epic-ly i'll toss my heidenhain encoders onto it ;)
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[19:55:38] <frallzor> yoyoyo
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[20:02:23] <pcw_home> anonimasu if it jumps at ~30 degrees either your encoders are not working or you still have commutation wrong
[20:02:25] <pcw_home> have you tried reversing the sign of the BLDCs encoder scale ?
[20:02:33] <anonimasu> i did
[20:02:42] <anonimasu> I can jog it a bit
[20:02:44] <anonimasu> then it jumps
[20:03:06] <pcw_home> did you try swapping U,V,W
[20:03:31] <anonimasu> no I didnt
[20:04:04] <anonimasu> I can jog it 1/12 or a rev or something then it jumps around and vibrates like crazy
[20:04:18] <anonimasu> my pole count is 12
[20:05:45] <anonimasu> pcw_home: any way to measure that?
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[20:08:21] <pcw_home> measure what?
[20:08:35] <anonimasu> how the phases sits
[20:08:51] <anonimasu> or swapping them is just easier
[20:09:10] <anonimasu> im sure that im loosing counts when it jumps around.
[20:11:20] <pcw_home> If you are losing counts when there's no hope basically
[20:11:23] <pcw_home> Can you just square up the sine/cos with a LM339, thats good for a couple MHz
[20:11:44] <pcw_home> then there's
[20:12:46] <anonimasu> well, it's only when it jumps after the 30 deg's not when it moves as it's supposed to
[20:13:03] <anonimasu> I think the acceleration jumping from a pair of poles kills the counting
[20:13:14] <anonimasu> so, maybe i should try swapping htem
[20:13:29] <anonimasu> is it absolutely nescessary to tweak p/i/d for testing?
[20:13:33] <pcw_home> There is no jumping from pairs of poles
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[20:13:40] <anonimasu> hm, it's like that for me
[20:13:53] <anonimasu> it jogs for 30 deg and then it jumps
[20:14:03] <pcw_home> Well then commutation is wrong
[20:14:17] <pcw_home> probably backwards
[20:14:45] <anonimasu> hm, swap u and w ?
[20:15:41] <pcw_home> or reverse BLDCs encoder scale, you may need to try both
[20:16:49] <pcw_home> _and_ reverse HM2s encoder scale if it runs away
[20:17:55] <pcw_home> Which you may not be able to discern if your encoder craps out at any speed
[20:24:33] <Tom_itx> if one were considering servos, which is the better choice? AD, DC or DC brushless?
[20:29:06] <anonimasu> ac
[20:29:08] <pcw_home> anonimasu are you sure you have 12 poles
[20:29:10] <pcw_home> (that is you had 6 places the motor would "rest' id you applied a small field at a fixed angle)
[20:29:17] <anonimasu> yes
[20:29:47] <anonimasu> i can double check
[20:30:02] <pcw_home> that is you had the encoder disconnected or the angle disconnected in HAL
[20:32:21] <pcw_home> (so you had a constant drive angle)
[20:32:23] <pcw_home> You can also do this with just a DC 5V PS or even a battery between 2 phase wires (beware the inductive kick it _will_ bite)
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[20:35:21] <Tom_itx> energize the phases to figure out the order?
[20:35:28] <Tom_itx> that's how i figure out steppers
[20:37:41] <anonimasu> swapped u and w
[20:38:20] <anonimasu> it goes crazy.
[20:39:08] <anonimasu> swapped u and w
[20:39:14] <anonimasu> err v and w
[20:42:00] <anonimasu> wtf 10?!
[20:42:52] <Tom_itx> 10 what?
[20:43:17] <anonimasu> poles?!
[20:44:01] <Tom_itx> nice round number
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[20:49:25] <anonimasu> it works!
[20:49:29] <anonimasu> :D
[20:49:31] <anonimasu> 8 poles. it was
[20:49:46] <pcw_home> details...
[20:50:43] <anonimasu> one second
[20:50:50] <syyl_> and now?
[20:50:52] <syyl_> gears?
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[20:56:55] <anonimasu> i got the pole count correct
[20:56:58] <anonimasu> and the commutation worked
[20:57:03] <Tom_L> 10?
[20:57:29] <anonimasu> 8
[20:57:36] <Tom_L> where did you get 10 from?
[20:57:58] <anonimasu> from trying it sense it with the phases in the wrong place
[20:59:06] <skunkworks> heh
[21:01:26] <anonimasu> also, it looks like the default pid is too brutal for my setup right noiw
[21:01:33] <anonimasu> since i had to lower the values to make it work at all
[21:05:46] <anonimasu> back
[21:05:51] <anonimasu> pcw_home: here's the deal the pole count was wrong
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[21:06:08] <anonimasu> pcw_home: also, it looks like I really need to plug in my absolute component so i can get commutation angle
[21:07:22] <pcw_home> You will always need to tune the PID to your final mechanics
[21:08:04] <Tom_L> need any grinding wheels? local surplus is dumping em for $1 ea
[21:08:05] <pcw_home> You can do without the absolute if you use the Q or index align
[21:08:07] <Tom_L> all sizes
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[21:08:17] <anonimasu> pcw_home: i dont have any index
[21:08:19] <Tom_L> from 5/8" shaft to 3-4"
[21:08:31] <anonimasu> I use q but init throws my motor into a infinite search for inde
[21:08:32] <anonimasu> x
[21:08:32] <Tom_L> and maybe 18" diameter or so
[21:08:52] <pcw_home> QI might, plain q wont
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[21:09:45] <anonimasu> when I set init to 1 that happens
[21:09:52] <anonimasu> or whatever else then 0
[21:10:08] <anonimasu> it's a quick job setting my abs stuff up but not for today
[21:10:14] <pcw_home> And mode is plain Q?
[21:10:19] <anonimasu> q
[21:10:21] <anonimasu> small
[21:10:29] <pcw_home> Sure doesn't do that here
[21:10:36] * anonimasu fires up vmware so he can read the bldc manual
[21:10:41] <anonimasu> what's your init set to?
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[21:11:40] <pcw_home> Set when motors are enabled we have been using q init for months without any trouble
[21:13:16] <anonimasu> well, it jumps the motor around
[21:13:27] <anonimasu> it works if my encoder is turned off
[21:13:27] <anonimasu> :)
[21:13:40] * anonimasu remembers
[21:14:04] <anonimasu> the accelerating of jumping the motor around to do magnetic homing screws up my encoder counting
[21:14:14] <pcw_home> so probably just some setup error, "q" init doesnt have any feedback it just ramps up the current slowly whilst rotating the angle
[21:14:16] <pcw_home> and yes it jumps around maybe 1/4 turn on your motors
[21:14:39] <anonimasu> let me run and check it :)
[21:15:09] <pcw_home> ahh too fast. I think theres a startup bug as well that will cause a FE (jump when done)
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[21:27:26] <skunkworks> wow feed per rev looks like it is going to work pretty neat. speeding up/down the spindle changes the effective feed rate - plus you can up the feed per rev with the feedrate override. very flexable.
[21:29:02] <Tom_itx> for servos or steppers?
[21:29:17] <Tom_itx> is that for lathe only?
[21:29:39] <frallzor> quick question, is there a new live-cd with a newer build of emc yet?
[21:29:41] <skunkworks> HMC
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[21:29:54] <skunkworks> frallzor: not that I know of
[21:30:10] <skunkworks> whatever is on the site is the latest - but downloading the updates is pretty painless
[21:30:12] <frallzor> last time I recall someone was in the works
[21:30:48] <KimK> frallzor: Newer than 10.04? No, and I wouldn't expect another one until summer of 2012.
[21:31:01] <skunkworks> I need to bore a bunch of cylinders - I thought it would be neet to try fpr
[21:31:25] <KimK> skunkworks: Yes, congrats, go for it.
[21:31:55] <skunkworks> KimK: so far so good. Seems the spindle encoder is still working :)
[21:32:17] <skunkworks> have not really used it since we did the 1 inch tapped holes
[21:32:19] <Tom_itx> KimK, what did you decide to use for your spindle encoder?
[21:32:46] <anonimasu> pcw_home: question what happens if i stick the ferrite bead on the power instead of motor power?
[21:32:57] <anonimasu> can that cause my motor to get warm?
[21:33:22] <anonimasu> and cause funkiness?
[21:33:34] <anonimasu> pcw_home: magnetic homing does not work for me
[21:33:42] * anonimasu yawns
[21:33:51] <anonimasu> sometimes if my motor is in the correct position it works...
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[21:34:20] <KimK> Tom_itx: Optical, I think, but I had to let it go for now. It's too much of a side trip while I'm trying to make progress on the main part of the retrofit.
[21:35:01] <Tom_itx> is that what you're working on here?
[21:35:53] <anonimasu> and also can that cause my motor to get hot quickly?
[21:36:26] <KimK> Tom_itx: I might machine the mechanical parts in a week or two, but it will take longer to make the reader head(s) and so forth. So I had to reluctantly concede that it will be an ongoing project.
[21:37:25] <KimK> Tom_itx: Well, I have quite a long list of things I can work on, but the Mori Seiki Jr. retrofit and the Sajo retrofit are probably at the top right now.
[21:41:59] <KimK> Tom_itx: How are things settling in on the homefront? Water still working? Laptops still working?
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[21:43:31] <nowox_> hi
[21:44:22] * anonimasu yawns
[21:44:28] <KimK> hi nowox_ , what's up?
[21:47:31] <nowox_> KimK, I'm trying to figure out if EMC might help me
[21:47:56] <KimK> nowox_: OK, what's your question?
[21:48:05] <skunkworks> nowox_: of course it will! :)
[21:48:18] <nowox_> I've got two i600 SCARA robots from Adept and I would like to control them with EMC
[21:49:13] <KimK> nowox_: And the problem is?
[21:50:01] <nowox_> Currently I command my robot with a serial console with VAL commands
[21:50:22] <nowox_> I don't know if I can connect it to EMC and how I can do it
[21:50:32] <KimK> What is VAL?
[21:51:00] <nowox_> It's an "industrial robot assembly language"
[21:51:07] <KimK> And, more importantly, what do you want these robots to do for you?
[21:51:16] <pcw_home> magnetic homing _always_ works but it might need different setup of U.V/W
[21:52:19] <pcw_home> If the motor is hot you may not have your initial alignment right
[21:52:28] <nowox_> I would like to make a small CNC for cutting thin sheets of wood or cardboard
[21:54:20] <pcw_home> Ferrite bead belongs on U/V/W
[21:54:22] <pcw_home> To check cause of motor heating put a HALMeter on the PID output it should be close to 0 if theres no external torque
[21:54:30] <Tom_itx> KimK, things are back to normal here now
[21:54:43] <KimK> nowox_: Well, EMC will easily control your robots and translate to an XYZ grid for you. So if you can get used to gcode to program your cutting, you're golden.
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[21:54:45] <Tom_itx> whatever norman is..
[21:54:49] <Tom_itx> normal*
[21:55:03] <nowox_> Great news !
[21:55:29] <anonimasu> pcw_home: im sure I dont have that, that's why I need the abs comp of mine :)
[21:55:44] <anonimasu> pcw_home: yeah but I misplaced the ferrite bead
[21:55:48] <KimK> nowox_: What kind of a tool are you planning on cutting with?
[21:55:51] <Tom_itx> are all servos this hard to set up?
[21:56:03] <anonimasu> pcw_home: might that be the cause that my motor dosent magnetic home properly?
[21:56:08] <Tom_itx> or is anonimasu just trying to be difficult..
[21:56:21] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: emc 2.6.0-pre
[21:56:23] <anonimasu> :)
[21:56:29] <Tom_itx> hmm
[21:56:31] <KimK> Tom_itx: No, this is a special deal, first one, etc.
[21:56:34] <Tom_itx> maybe i should grab that
[21:56:49] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: along with some bleeding edge patches not even in cvs yet
[21:56:50] <Tom_itx> new boards too i believe aren't they??
[21:57:23] <pcw_home> with magnetic alignment you should be able to mark the shaft and motor and make sure it always aligns to the correct place
[21:57:25] <pcw_home> (this does depend on flawless encoders)
[21:57:34] <anonimasu> usually it shouldnt be this big problem ,but the weird encoders and stuff along
[21:58:31] <nowox_> I don't know yet. At first I would try to cut a piece of paper with a knife blade. Later, I'm thinking to mount a "Dremel like" tool on my robot's head
[21:58:53] <pcw_home> we dont see any problem with it as long as you can accept
[21:58:55] <pcw_home> 1. slight motion at startup
[21:58:57] <pcw_home> 2. need no load on motor at startup
[21:59:50] <pcw_home> The advantage is you dont even need Hall sensors, just an encoder
[22:00:29] <anonimasu> pcw_home: anyway it dosent work but once my motor is aligned pretty correct i can jog around just fine
[22:01:09] <anonimasu> uvw is marked by my manufacturer so they should be correct and if I move them around my motor wont even jog around properly
[22:02:01] <pcw_home> Is it doesnt work its a UVW issue or an encoder issue
[22:02:07] <pcw_home> If it
[22:02:20] <anonimasu> but how can i commute properly?
[22:02:39] <anonimasu> motor goes silent when aligned and commutes smoothly
[22:03:23] <KimK> nowox_: OK. And if you use a rotating cutter, EMC can also do tool diameter compensation, to make it easier to cut "inside the line" or "outside the line".
[22:03:24] <nowox_> KimK, does EMC support VAL commands or better V+ commands (V+ is the assembly language from Adept)? I still don't really understand how I can interface EMC with my robot. Is there any listbox on EMC where I can select "Adept Cobra i600 Robot" ? :)
[22:03:40] <pcw_home> if the count is right and the direction is right, the only thing left is initial angle my guess is your encoder loses count somewhere
[22:03:49] <nowox_> KimK, That's great too :)
[22:04:02] <anonimasu> pcw_home: err, once it's running it runs unless i go too fast
[22:04:19] <anonimasu> pcw_home: it's just the inital alignment that fails
[22:04:26] <KimK> nowox_: I doubt it has your specific model, but there might be a generic SCARA choice.
[22:04:36] <pcw_home> Yes but an initial jump might be too fast
[22:04:53] <anonimasu> it didnt look like it was working even with the encoder off
[22:05:11] <anonimasu> it seemed like I had to job the motor until the rotor jumps into the correct position
[22:05:19] <anonimasu> then starts moving smoothly and silently
[22:05:30] <anonimasu> s/job/jog
[22:05:42] <nowox_> KimK, but EMC have to know how to communicate with my robot, isn'it?
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[22:06:33] <pcw_home> You would not now unless you mark your shaft
[22:06:35] <pcw_home> you also may need higher init current, you should see it snap into one of 4 positions at startup
[22:06:47] <anonimasu> it's marked
[22:07:12] <anonimasu> and i see it snap, it just dosent commute from there
[22:07:49] <KimK> nowox_: You might take a look here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware In your case, I'd probably recommend Mesa cards.
[22:08:16] <pcw_home> If you disable the PID loop, doe its always align to the same (4) places?
[22:08:27] <anonimasu> hm, i dont know how to disable that
[22:08:48] <pcw_home> set PID.0.ENABLE false?
[22:09:36] <KimK> nowox_: In that case (Mesa cards) you would keep your drive amplifiers and power supplies, etc., and dump your controller in favor of a PC.
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[22:10:57] <nowox_> KimK, I don't think I can dump my controller. It's a monolithic robot and unfortunately I only have a RS232 port
[22:11:29] <KimK> Yes, you would dump your controller. The PC becomes the controller.
[22:13:03] <KimK> nowox_: But the good news is, you'd no longer be limited by that @#$% RS-232 port, lol!
[22:13:20] <nowox_> KimK, haha
[22:13:47] <nowox_> KimK, and I have to take apart my 20k$ robot :(
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[22:15:54] <KimK> nowox_: Well, if it's a $20K robot that you can't use and isn't what you want, how much is it really worth? Something to think about, anyway.
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[22:19:23] <nowox_> KimK, you're right but I sure there is another solution where I can deal with my @#5% RS-232 port. Maybe I can write a specific driver that could convert EMC order in the corresponding VAL commands
[22:21:33] <nowox_> But I thought others had done before. VAL is a language widely used.
[22:21:50] <KimK> OK. But I am unfamiliar with either VAL or V+, so I don't know what to tell you. Maybe if someone else knows VAL or V+ they will join in?
[22:22:44] <KimK> In fact, I've not heard of either one before. (G-code spoken here, I guess.)
[22:24:32] <El_Matarife> Oh man, why didn't I hear about this project before it died? http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1091976372/open-source-5-axis-cnc-router-and-plasma-machine-p
[22:24:48] <El_Matarife> Everyone should have been shouting about it from the rooftops
[22:26:31] <anonimasu> pcw_home: more findings
[22:26:44] <anonimasu> pcw_home: the magnetic homing works _IF_ and only if I remove the encoder
[22:26:45] <El_Matarife> He didn't list how much it cost to build but it looks roughly similar to a overgrown mechmate so I'm going to guess slightly under $10K USD
[22:26:47] <anonimasu> while homing
[22:27:10] <anonimasu> the magnetic homing that is
[22:27:28] <anonimasu> I need a dspic.
[22:27:29] <anonimasu> :D
[22:27:38] <anonimasu> so I can do 1Ms/s
[22:27:50] <anonimasu> and not fuck around with a avr.
[22:28:09] <anonimasu> I can jog up to 30 ipm with this setup
[22:29:05] <anonimasu> so, if i get the abs working tomorrow it should be reliable
[22:29:11] <pcw_home> Well if you are just squaring the sine/cos a LM339 comparator would beat a lot of DSPs
[22:29:27] <anonimasu> yeah, but if I want to interpolate it x2 atleast
[22:29:45] <anonimasu> since i'll have 0.001 between counts otherwise with my screws on the machine
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[22:30:08] <pcw_home> what pitch ballscrews?
[22:30:11] <anonimasu> 5mm
[22:30:38] <anonimasu> err it turns out as 0.00122mm per count if i do direct drive
[22:30:45] <pcw_home> oh .0012 mm
[22:31:08] <anonimasu> perferably 10 times less would be great
[22:32:11] <anonimasu> tho, I am thinking of gearing it down 2:1 since I need a belt drive anyway
[22:32:22] <anonimasu> but it's still kindof large
[22:32:40] <anonimasu> with the sincos interpolator chips it'd give me 32768 counts/rev or similiar
[22:33:03] <anonimasu> (the ones with the BISS adapter that they cant sell separately)
[22:33:10] <pcw_home> better have good and well placed limit switches
[22:33:32] <anonimasu> indeed, over 10m/min on a tiny machine..
[22:33:47] <pcw_home> They need the BISS adapter to run their setup software?
[22:33:50] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:34:17] <anonimasu> i bought their devel board since I didnt want to make my own(they werent too extremely expensive) and the adapter was supposed to be included along
[22:34:58] <anonimasu> but my manufacturer and them screwed up so they need to send the boards back to germany so they can send a whole new kit
[22:34:59] <pcw_home> you could just bit-bang BISS but you would need to know the protocol/registers
[22:35:16] <anonimasu> i do have that data, but my bitwise math is very very terrible
[22:35:21] <pcw_home> seems kind of unfriendly
[22:35:58] <anonimasu> it looks like it's a bit bang:ed protocol
[22:36:09] <anonimasu> with some timing requirements for choosing what adapter to program
[22:36:28] <pcw_home> Maybe they have an OC stock manager
[22:36:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:37:09] <anonimasu> well atleast i know it'll work now, so i can make motor mounts and stuff
[22:37:18] <anonimasu> and mount limit switches!
[22:38:09] <pcw_home> Yep, I have a feeling these motors could break something if they get away
[22:38:29] <anonimasu> yeah they are more sized for my big mill that takes 600kg on the table at work
[22:38:55] <pcw_home> BBL feed store trip for the animules...
[22:39:04] <anonimasu> i think sane thing to do is to limit everything slow except for the toolchanging
[22:39:23] <anonimasu> to 4 meters/minute or something
[22:39:38] <anonimasu> so nobody(me/father) kills themselves on it
[22:39:54] <anonimasu> or worse some employee stuck at watching it
[22:41:38] <anonimasu> when that day happens
[22:42:35] <anonimasu> pcw_home: out of curiousity(when you get back) can you setup 2 lm339 to interpolate the signal... to 2x
[22:53:46] <anonimasu> ie, that would be something like to drive the input of a comparator with a analog switch with 2 inputs that switches what comparator gets used on what signal levels
[23:05:33] <anonimasu> looks like there are no devel boards for dsPic's anywhere around
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[23:09:37] <anonimasu> maybe http://microcontrollershop.com/product_info.php?products_id=1442
[23:09:58] <anonimasu> one chip could handle 3 motors or more probably
[23:11:04] <anonimasu> http://www.futurlec.com/dsPIC30F2010_Board.shtml
[23:17:33] <nicko> PCW>> I'm back to trying to sort this drive enable issue here
[23:18:02] <nicko> PCW>> it's been a while - which means I've forgotten a fair amount of the details
[23:19:01] <nicko> I have your 7i33 here - it outputs as the manual says "Each 7I33 channel has an 5V CMOS active high enable output available on the SERVO AMP / ENCODER connector. These signals are the logical inversion of the Enable inputs."
[23:24:49] <nicko> I plug it into the drive - nothing
[23:25:00] <nicko> I invert the drives logic - nothing
[23:25:41] <nicko> I dont see how to invert the PWMgen enable (from the 5i22) that feeds the 7i33
[23:28:21] <anonimasu> nicko: I'd say use the not component and just connect your signals there
[23:28:33] <anonimasu> err inv
[23:29:21] <anonimasu> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/invert.9.html
[23:29:47] <anonimasu> nicko: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/not.9.html
[23:29:50] <anonimasu> that one i meantr
[23:30:48] <nicko> how do you do that to a pin 'inside' a hostmot2 pwmgen ?
[23:31:33] <nicko> I can see how to do it to GPIO - but not the enable part of a hostmot pwngen
[23:32:15] <anonimasu> mhm, it looks like you should probably connect that external pin to a gpio
[23:32:16] <skunkworks> I don't think you have any control over the pwm enable outputs. they are active high. (they automatically go high when the pwmgens are enabled)
[23:32:37] <anonimasu> and connect it to motion.enable
[23:32:50] <skunkworks> I was able to change the logic of my drives to use active high.
[23:33:00] <anonimasu> nicko: that seems to be the only logical thing to do based on what skunkworks says
[23:33:29] <nicko> I plug it into the drive - nothing
[23:33:41] <nicko> I invert the drives logic - nothing
[23:34:28] <anonimasu> i think the enable is just internal to stop pwmgen from generating any motion
[23:34:30] <skunkworks> ah
[23:34:39] <nicko> its like I need PCW and the drive maker in the same room with me at the same time
[23:35:10] <anonimasu> who made your drives?
[23:35:23] <nicko> granite devices VSD
[23:36:06] <nicko> the 7i33 generates a lovely 5v signal
[23:36:23] <nicko> on and off as much as I care to enable EMC... great !
[23:36:33] <nicko> but when I connect it to the drives ...
[23:36:35] <nicko> nada
[23:36:49] <anonimasu> did you manage to configure the drives with the usb stuff?
[23:36:53] <nicko> not even inverted logic - as on when it should be off
[23:37:41] <anonimasu> and did you ground the pwm signal?
[23:37:48] <nicko> well, yeh the drive configuration uses a usb connection yes - its working in terms of setting settings - but the settings are the issue
[23:38:14] <nicko> PWM ? the 5i22 send PWM to the 7i33 - the 7i33 send analog to the drives
[23:38:44] <anonimasu> and you have the drive setup with encoders wired through it or to the 5i22?
[23:38:50] <anonimasu> or both?
[23:38:53] <nicko> both
[23:38:59] <nicko> drive is in velocity mode
[23:39:10] <anonimasu> ok.
[23:39:19] <nicko> it passes the encoder data to the 7i33 - which passes it to the 5i22 and so on into EMC
[23:39:22] <anonimasu> can you move the motors if you put a voltage in on the vin pins?
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[23:39:30] <anonimasu> err analog in
[23:39:43] <anonimasu> and put the enable input to high/low?
[23:39:47] <nicko> no, because it is disabled
[23:39:52] <nicko> that is the issue ;)
[23:40:03] <anonimasu> screw emc for a second and try it externally
[23:40:03] <nicko> this is the issue
[23:40:11] <anonimasu> wire the enable to low/high
[23:40:17] <anonimasu> and send a voltage to the analog pins
[23:40:20] <anonimasu> and see if it moves
[23:40:36] <nicko> the issue is with the drive most likely
[23:40:43] <anonimasu> before that works dont mess with emc
[23:40:51] <nicko> I *cant* drive it as I cannot enable it
[23:40:59] <anonimasu> you can
[23:41:02] <nicko> so plugging in analog from anywhere aint going to do anything
[23:41:14] <anonimasu> if you ground the enable input
[23:41:19] <anonimasu> or send a voltage into it
[23:41:24] <anonimasu> it should enable
[23:41:33] <nicko> thats what I thought I was doing with the 7i33 ...
[23:41:46] <anonimasu> and you should be able to move the motor with a voltage on the analog input pins
[23:41:50] <nicko> hmmm - but I'll give it a go external of that - I have a benchtop DC supply here
[23:41:58] <anonimasu> yes, but you need to make sure your drive works first
[23:42:12] <nicko> yup - ok, process of elimination
[23:42:14] <nicko> 5mins!
[23:42:18] <nicko> :)
[23:42:30] <anonimasu> check what permissable voltage levels are from the datasheet!
[23:43:12] <anonimasu> and if doing that with the enable input, works wire it up to another hal pin and link it somewhere to make it work
[23:43:19] <nicko> 3.0 to 5.5V CMOS or TTL logic. Greater voltage range by external resistor.
[23:43:47] <anonimasu> you should be able to use that voltage for the analog input too
[23:44:14] <anonimasu> as it handles +/- 11v
[23:44:29] <nicko> they are opto-isolator inputs - which there is some kind of confusion / consideration re. open collectors or somehting I dont know about
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[23:45:07] <nicko> www.granitedevices.fi/assets/files/vsd-e_160_manual.pdf
[23:45:34] <anonimasu> im reading that now
[23:46:25] <anonimasu> what page is the enable on?
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[23:46:48] <anonimasu> the cmd connector?
[23:47:26] <nicko> yes
[23:47:28] <anonimasu> nicko: it looks like you need to ground the - of the optoisolator inputs also
[23:47:40] <anonimasu> hsin+(to the enable voltage or gnd)
[23:47:43] <anonimasu> and then hsin - to gnd
[23:47:49] <anonimasu> or whichever you are using
[23:47:58] <anonimasu> is it wired like that?
[23:48:03] <nicko> IN3 (pin10)
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[23:49:33] <anonimasu> and pin 8 is grounded?
[23:49:43] <nicko> page 14 -
[23:50:02] <anonimasu> is it?
[23:50:28] <nicko> yes, in one of the many attempts to get this going I had pin10 connected to my +5v signal and pin 8 connected to the ground of the device sending the siganl
[23:50:42] <nicko> and I'll try it again just now
[23:50:52] <anonimasu> mhm, that might have fried the opto...
[23:50:54] <nicko> a few minutes away from the keyboard though ;)
[23:51:20] <nicko> how is that ?
[23:51:34] <anonimasu> they are very sensitive to reverse current
[23:52:00] <nicko> um
[23:52:01] <anonimasu> might be worth moving them to the hs one instead and connecting them carefully.
[23:52:06] <nicko> sure - but...
[23:52:08] <nicko> um,
[23:52:13] <nicko> common is gorund
[23:52:17] <nicko> in is voltage ?
[23:52:21] <anonimasu> yes
[23:52:23] <nicko> how is that reverse ?
[23:53:34] <anonimasu> err it isnt.
[23:53:38] <anonimasu> i swapped pins in my head
[23:53:43] <anonimasu> :)
[23:53:54] <nicko> shesus - way to give me a fright
[23:54:03] <anonimasu> i've had my fair share today :)
[23:54:13] <anonimasu> im sharing
[23:54:15] <anonimasu> :D
[23:55:10] <anonimasu> i gotta go to bed it's way too late here, anyway once you can move your motors like that connect the mesa stuff to it and it should be fairly easy to get working, if you need another kind of signal then what pwmgen gives, you might have to set up a gpio to give you that
[23:58:06] <alex4nder> hey.. anyone have an opinion: on a taig mill, should I go the normal vise route, or look more into a "work holding system"?
[23:58:21] <anonimasu> you need both
[23:58:29] <alex4nder> like this http://www.hightechsystemsllc.com/pt_work_holding_system.html
[23:58:33] <nicko> agree
[23:58:38] <alex4nder> anonimasu: currently I just have the small Taig vise
[23:58:48] <alex4nder> http://www.taigtools.com/c1225.html
[23:58:57] <anonimasu> you will get far with a vise and a set of clamps
[23:59:08] <alex4nder> that
[23:59:14] <nicko> I guess with a vise you can make your own work holding systems from word go
[23:59:19] <anonimasu> you can improvise most setups with that
[23:59:32] <anonimasu> depends on your work if you do repeat stuff a work holding system is useful, but not for one off's
[23:59:57] <skunkworks> huh - the tool chain goes wonkey when the prox sensor circuit quits working correctly :)